--- Log opened Wed Dec 01 00:00:40 2021
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2021-12-01T01:06:00 < mawk> lol Steffanx 
2021-12-01T01:06:04 < mawk> yes I'm sure
2021-12-01T01:06:08 < mawk> the ssd is broken
2021-12-01T01:06:17 < mawk> I ordered a new one but it comes Thursday
2021-12-01T01:06:48 < Steffanx> In Frenchlandia?
2021-12-01T01:06:54 < mawk> I just have to slack off from 9 to 6 to get my 💊💊
2021-12-01T01:06:56 < mawk> no here
2021-12-01T01:07:04 < mawk> in dutchreich
2021-12-01T01:10:48 < Steffanx> Still not on 9 to 5?
2021-12-01T01:10:54 < Steffanx> Or 8.30 to 5
2021-12-01T01:12:20 < mawk> no it's 9 to 6
2021-12-01T01:12:22 < mawk> for everyone
2021-12-01T01:12:28 < mawk> with 1h pause
2021-12-01T01:15:56 < Steffanx> Aha
2021-12-01T01:16:28 < Steffanx> Back in the office? Rutte asked you to work from home again!!
2021-12-01T01:18:07 < The_Jag> still having hard fault issue
2021-12-01T01:19:06 < The_Jag> HAL_TIM_PeriodElapsedCallback(TIM_HandleTypeDef *htim) ------ &htim->Instance has a value of 536873280
2021-12-01T01:22:03 < The_Jag> which is 0x20000940
2021-12-01T01:22:21 < The_Jag> it doesn't seem any tim address
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2021-12-01T01:28:11 < mawk> yes all week in the office Steffanx 
2021-12-01T01:28:18 < mawk> I give the finger to mister rutte
2021-12-01T01:40:10 < _unreal_> got my stm32f401's
2021-12-01T01:40:25 < _unreal_> qyx, got my stm's
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--- Log closed Wed Dec 01 02:00:02 2021
--- Log opened Wed Dec 01 02:05:11 2021
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2021-12-01T09:54:22 < rob_w> if the manuals talk about about ADCx_INx, where do i find the corresponding gpio for them
2021-12-01T09:55:14 < rob_w> am trying to get a extra adc setup , i got one which is ADC_CHANNEL_12 which is using GPIOC 2 , now i need ontop GPIOA 6 to that ??
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2021-12-01T11:15:11 < rob_w> nevermind , used cubemx to tell me the port vs pin
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2021-12-01T11:51:03 < karlp> datasheet has it too.
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2021-12-01T13:53:05 < bitmask> mornin'
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2021-12-01T15:25:49 < bitmask> tha coffee is alwayz umpty
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2021-12-01T17:51:12 < bitmask> hmmm
2021-12-01T17:51:14 < bitmask> hows this?
2021-12-01T17:51:14 < bitmask> https://wandbox.org/permlink/t3VoYLmJ63DuTBWZ
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2021-12-01T18:26:52 < The_Jag> I'm still struggling to find a way to determine which timer fires the elapsedPeriodCallback. Does anyone has some advice? I'm really lost
2021-12-01T18:32:10 < fenugrec> The_Jag, without any context, no clue, but breakpoint on that callback, look at the call stack, verify which handler it came from; breakpoint on that handler next, and examine TMR peripheral regs to find out which one has interrupt/overflow/whatever flags
2021-12-01T18:34:26 < The_Jag> fenugrec in the callback I if-else each one of the htim instances possible (1 to 14), even though I only use htim2-5-6-7-10, but I have a lot of firing from an unknown htim instance (ie, all ifs fails)
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2021-12-01T18:34:38 < The_Jag> so I am a bit puzzled
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2021-12-01T18:35:00 < fenugrec> well, breakpoint before your ifelse, and look a the htim value ? then look at mem map to find out what it is
2021-12-01T18:35:39 < The_Jag> i'll try
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2021-12-01T19:20:18 < The_Jag> now it's hard faulting with usage fault INVSTATE on HAL_TIM_Base_Stop_IT($htim7) after a while loop.
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2021-12-01T19:22:53 < The_Jag> this was a code that is been working for a while so it's really weird that it now faults 
2021-12-01T19:23:20 < The_Jag> I am very confused
2021-12-01T19:24:19 < zyp> The_Jag, you mean the source worked before? INVSTATE is often a build setting fuckup
2021-12-01T19:24:49 < The_Jag> yes it was a field proven code
2021-12-01T19:25:08 < zyp> so it's plausible you've just fucked up the build settings?
2021-12-01T19:25:17 < The_Jag> could be
2021-12-01T19:25:26 < The_Jag> don't know where though
2021-12-01T19:25:30 < The_Jag> or where to llok
2021-12-01T19:25:32 < The_Jag> look
2021-12-01T19:26:04 < zyp> INVSTATE happens when the code tries switching from thumb to arm mode; cortex-m only has thumb and such a switch is therefore invalid
2021-12-01T19:26:35 < The_Jag> where should I look for that?
2021-12-01T19:26:45 < The_Jag> in cubemx settings?
2021-12-01T19:26:52 < The_Jag> or build settings?
2021-12-01T19:27:02 < zyp> hmm, not sure
2021-12-01T19:27:10 < zyp> this is all cubemx generated, including build files?
2021-12-01T19:27:18 < zyp> where did you get your compiler toolchain from?
2021-12-01T19:27:33 < zyp> this error was more common before when toolchains were less reliable
2021-12-01T19:27:37 < The_Jag> I use stm32cubeide
2021-12-01T19:27:46 < zyp> nowadays everybody uses gcc-arm-embedded which has reasonable defaults
2021-12-01T19:28:07 < The_Jag> uhm
2021-12-01T19:28:13 < The_Jag> in mcu settings
2021-12-01T19:28:20 < The_Jag> I have instruction set thumb2
2021-12-01T19:28:31 < The_Jag> but the mcu is set correctly
2021-12-01T19:28:39 < The_Jag> stm32f407vgt
2021-12-01T19:28:39 < zyp> thumb2 is correct
2021-12-01T19:29:17 < zyp> alternatively you could just be trying to call a function pointer full of garbage
2021-12-01T19:29:28 < The_Jag> in gcc assembler i have -mthumb
2021-12-01T19:29:36 < zyp> or trash the stack before a return would also do it
2021-12-01T19:29:40 < The_Jag> still though i didn't chenge anything
2021-12-01T19:32:51 < The_Jag> this stm was also desoldered and soldered on another board (long story): could it fail the system somehow?
2021-12-01T19:33:06 < The_Jag> I'm trying to think of anything
2021-12-01T19:34:11 < Xogium> well if you damaged something while soldering it back, I'm guessing anything can happen
2021-12-01T19:34:42 < The_Jag> not my fault but since other pcbs came back ruined...
2021-12-01T19:34:43 < Xogium> even when its not soldered properly, aren't those BGA chips anyway ?
2021-12-01T19:35:28 < The_Jag> qnf package i think
2021-12-01T19:35:39 < Xogium> ah so not the same stuff, hm
2021-12-01T19:36:28 < The_Jag> well, the package which ha protruding pin, not the one with the pads under the chip
2021-12-01T19:36:56 < Xogium> right, not the ones with tiny plastic balls
2021-12-01T19:37:11 < The_Jag> no
2021-12-01T19:37:40 < The_Jag> I think the manufacturer fucked up big time
2021-12-01T19:38:14 < karlp> invstate is one ofthe many things you can get if you trash your stack and just start executing garbage too
2021-12-01T19:38:20 < Xogium> could you run this code on say a st dev kit with the same cpu or near identical if there's nothing that has it in dev kit, see if also explodes ?
2021-12-01T19:38:30 < Xogium> that would possibly point to hardware being an issue
2021-12-01T19:38:44 < The_Jag> I may try on a nucleo board
2021-12-01T19:39:04 < The_Jag> with different stm though
2021-12-01T19:42:07 < The_Jag> I tried upgrading the toolchain too
2021-12-01T19:42:31 < The_Jag> it still crashes on that tim stop it
2021-12-01T19:42:42 < jpa-> The_Jag: i've seen INVSTATE on STM32F407 when the V_CAP capacitors are wrong - though in that case i also got invalid instruction hardfaults
2021-12-01T19:42:49 < jpa-> (wrong = missing :)
2021-12-01T19:42:59 < Xogium> ulo jpa- :)
2021-12-01T19:44:20 < Xogium> say, how do you guys identify a short ? Just by the amount of heat that is coming off one a chip ?
2021-12-01T19:45:00 < Xogium> I've got a dev board here, not stm at all, where the, er I think pl2303 chip for serial console is shorted or something… Or a capacitor nearby, not sure
2021-12-01T19:45:02 < jpa-> i measure in microvolt mode to see which way current moves on each trace
2021-12-01T19:45:31 < Xogium> I hurt my finger touching the chip
2021-12-01T19:45:46 < jpa-> then the chip is probably shorted
2021-12-01T19:46:22 < Xogium> all I hear is a low whine, like low noise level, but high pitched whine
2021-12-01T19:46:35 < Xogium> on the board itself, not the psu
2021-12-01T19:47:12 < Xogium> board won't boot anymore, and serial only prints garbage characters from time to time
2021-12-01T19:48:26 < Xogium> I'd have thought that if serial was shorted then only serial would be a problem…
2021-12-01T19:48:31 < Xogium> but I guess not
2021-12-01T19:49:18 < Xogium> what in the world…
2021-12-01T19:50:23 < Xogium> well damn it all to hell, the slc micro sd card outlived the board
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2021-12-01T20:39:59 < The_Jag> on another identical pcb, no hard fault
2021-12-01T20:40:12 < The_Jag> So I'd say this pcb is fucked
2021-12-01T20:41:23 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-01T20:41:27 < Xogium> sounds likely
2021-12-01T20:55:33 < The_Jag> so so great with the chip shortages we're in...
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2021-12-01T21:07:44 < jpa-> buying the last units of a chip is one thing, breaking them is another :)
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2021-12-01T21:41:03 < con3> jpa-: you feel my pain?
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2021-12-01T22:15:55 < The_Jag> jpa- the manufacturer broke them sadly
2021-12-01T23:26:06 < Steffanx> Where is kaki69
2021-12-01T23:35:06 < bitmask> up your butt
2021-12-01T23:36:22 < Steffanx> still butttt huuurrrtt bitmask?
2021-12-01T23:36:32 < bitmask> about what?
2021-12-01T23:36:40 < Steffanx> idk
2021-12-01T23:36:45 < Steffanx> i wasnt there
2021-12-01T23:37:02 < bitmask> neither was i
--- Day changed Thu Dec 02 2021
2021-12-02T00:07:30 < zyp> mawk, where in nl did you say you were located?
2021-12-02T00:07:39 < mawk> in Delft
2021-12-02T00:08:53 < mawk> why
2021-12-02T00:08:54 < zyp> ah
2021-12-02T00:09:02 < zyp> just curious
2021-12-02T00:09:15 < zyp> I were in Gouda last week
2021-12-02T00:20:50 < Steffanx> Did you eat some cheese from the market?
2021-12-02T00:21:35 < zyp> no
2021-12-02T00:22:12 < Steffanx> Why Gouda of all places? Work?
2021-12-02T00:22:17 < zyp> no
2021-12-02T00:22:25 < Steffanx> Whokay
2021-12-02T00:24:20 < zyp> I picked up a new toy, and then I grabbed a tray of stm32s while I were there
2021-12-02T00:25:14 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/2pVce.jpg
2021-12-02T00:26:47 < zyp> alsohttps://bin.jvnv.net/file/V3cnt.jpg
2021-12-02T00:26:50 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/V3cnt.jpg
2021-12-02T00:28:02 < Steffanx> Heh what's the plan with that new toy.
2021-12-02T00:28:32 < BrainDamage> soon people will smuggle chips across customs instead diamonds or drugs
2021-12-02T00:28:40 < BrainDamage> more value in less space
2021-12-02T00:28:53 < BrainDamage> zyp is pioneering it
2021-12-02T00:29:22 < zyp> BrainDamage, got stopped three times by customs, nobody cared about the chips
2021-12-02T00:30:03 < BrainDamage> see, it's a regulatory loophole!
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2021-12-02T01:03:54 < karlp> butt muh itar encryptionz
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2021-12-02T01:25:57 < zyp> they didn't have itar dogs, only drug dogs
2021-12-02T01:30:03 < ventYl> BrainDamage: people already are smuggling chips
2021-12-02T01:33:24 < zyp> in theory I should maybe have declared the chips and paid VAT on them, but that'd be a pointless hassle since I'd just file it as a VAT deduction for my company afterwards
2021-12-02T01:36:22 < ventYl> two less papers. if everyone acted like you, tax office rats would die of hunger
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2021-12-02T01:47:01 < zyp> good
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2021-12-02T03:13:30 < fenugrec> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/V3cnt.jpg
2021-12-02T03:13:38 < fenugrec> opsp
2021-12-02T03:13:58 < fenugrec> robot = fanuc ?
2021-12-02T03:14:22 < fenugrec> what happened to the casing near joint... 3 ? at the top
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2021-12-02T05:00:36 < aandrew> lookit you with stm32 stock
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2021-12-02T09:16:30 < zyp> fenugrec, got a bit damaged during transport
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2021-12-02T09:44:39 < rob_w> hi there , is there a way in AC6/Eclipse to get a history of a variable and its changes like a console output ?
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2021-12-02T10:54:12 < Steffanx> I recall the cube can do that rob_w 
2021-12-02T11:00:33 < rob_w> Steffanx: ok thx
2021-12-02T11:09:30 < mawk> I am in the basement of my company to fix the server
2021-12-02T11:09:40 < mawk> and I'm sitting atop a pile of garbage
2021-12-02T11:10:00 < mawk> then I looked at precisely what I was sitting on, and that includes a big jar of HF acid apparently
2021-12-02T11:11:01 < mawk> just do watch when debugging rob_w 
2021-12-02T11:14:45 < ventYl> watch needs trace, memory breakpoint would be better
2021-12-02T11:18:10 < karlp> not .... realllly need strace.
2021-12-02T11:18:25 < karlp> you can actually do background memory reads even without swo.
2021-12-02T11:19:02 < karlp> tracepoints give you much higher frequency, but you don't need trace of any sort to get live variable updates.
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2021-12-02T11:56:39 < karlp> cute addressing system: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/PChrg.png
2021-12-02T11:58:34 < mawk> weird
2021-12-02T11:58:40 < mawk> how do they test if it's connected to SCL or SDA
2021-12-02T11:59:09 < ventYl> NAND gate?
2021-12-02T12:00:18 < mawk> what if SCL or SDA is low when they're testing
2021-12-02T12:00:32 < mawk> or high, or whatever
2021-12-02T12:00:35 < ventYl> I expect that there is state machine, which is reset at start condition
2021-12-02T12:01:00 < ventYl> one compares against SCL, another against SDA, another tests for constant VCC, another constant GND
2021-12-02T12:01:29 < ventYl> after 7 bits arrive, only one of tests will remain high, other will fall to low and that low will get latched
2021-12-02T12:02:17 < karlp> there's notes later on when it lateches it on the first requests they see after power on.
2021-12-02T12:02:28 < mawk> right
2021-12-02T12:02:51 < ventYl> that's also an option. it doesn't allow for runtime address changing, but that's probably not needed anyway
2021-12-02T12:04:50 < karlp> they have some charts on how to do it with some gpios that you atlernate into low/high/hi-z, and orders to do things in for N devices...
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2021-12-02T12:39:33 < kakium69> https://youtu.be/ThSBF4wvl8M?t=706
2021-12-02T12:41:12 < ventYl> } else 
2021-12-02T12:41:15 < ventYl> {
2021-12-02T12:41:18 < ventYl> 5 lines below
2021-12-02T12:41:20 < ventYl> }
2021-12-02T12:41:22 < ventYl> else {
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2021-12-02T12:41:30 < ventYl> Y U no constant indentation motherfucker?
2021-12-02T13:08:29 < Steffanx> There is stm32cubemonitor too rob_w  never used it though
2021-12-02T13:10:16 < Steffanx> I'm sorry ventYl  
2021-12-02T13:11:38 < ventYl> there's apparently fugly bug in that code, but my visual cortex has broken looking at it
2021-12-02T13:18:36 < Steffanx> Imagine how people with a screen reader reading the code line by line must feel ;)
2021-12-02T13:22:09 < ventYl> I genuinely wonder how Xogium was able to start coding
2021-12-02T13:22:41 < ventYl> like, for me it is unbelievable that you can learn communicate with other world, if you are deaf or blind
2021-12-02T13:23:02 < ventYl> (originally, looking at different monitor, I wrote "if you are dead or dumb)
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2021-12-02T13:44:34 < Steffanx> Yeah, give your code editor a height of 1 line and start coding, ventYl 
2021-12-02T13:46:16 < Steffanx> Unless you have a photographic memory, but that is cheating 
2021-12-02T13:52:21 < rob_w> well it was for a debug need on a canbus situation ,,, found  a canbus sniffer in my office which is perfect for what i need now 
2021-12-02T13:58:38 < Xogium> so there any way to check up on stm32 mcu based on price/specs real quick ? I tried the st website, but it is rather confusing
2021-12-02T13:59:59 < ventYl> jpa has something, albeit most probably in graphic form
2021-12-02T14:01:49 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-02T14:02:01 < Xogium> I heard the cube mx has it too ? I forget
2021-12-02T14:02:15 < ventYl> I've never ran it. IDK
2021-12-02T14:02:16 < karlp> it has budget pricing, but nothing on real world availability 
2021-12-02T14:02:30 < Xogium> right
2021-12-02T14:03:26 < Xogium> I need something with at least 512 kb of ram and 1 mb of flash that has usb, fs should do it rather than hs
2021-12-02T14:03:42 < Xogium> doesn't matter if it has no ethernet
2021-12-02T14:05:04 < Xogium> if not doable then 512 kb of flash/512 of ram and if really can't do it, 256 for flash
2021-12-02T14:06:52 < Xogium> there are so many series of mcu I don't know which one to pick
2021-12-02T14:08:52 < zyp> for that much ram you'll need to go highend
2021-12-02T14:08:53 < PaulFertser> For flash you can consider a part that can run from QSPI.
2021-12-02T14:09:07 < zyp> (or external)
2021-12-02T14:09:51 < Xogium> hmm true
2021-12-02T14:10:07 < zyp> F7x7 got up to 512k RAM and 2M flash, but that RAM is divided into multiple areas
2021-12-02T14:10:08 < Xogium> but just how slow is qspi compared to internal flash, I wonder
2021-12-02T14:10:36 < zyp> H7 has some parts with over a megabyte of ram
2021-12-02T14:10:53 < zyp> H7A3 says 1.4M ram, 2M flash
2021-12-02T14:10:56 < Xogium> holy jesus these must cost quite a bit
2021-12-02T14:11:38 < zyp> looks like around $15 in singles at regular distros
2021-12-02T14:12:15 < Xogium> woah I expected worse
2021-12-02T14:12:27 < Xogium> even f769 is nearly the same isn't it
2021-12-02T14:12:33 < zyp> https://www.digikey.no/product-detail/en/STM32H7A3VIT6/497-STM32H7A3VIT6-ND/11591004
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2021-12-02T14:17:31 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-02T14:17:40 < Xogium> these do look like they would work
2021-12-02T14:19:08 < Xogium> combined with external flash, yeah… that should do it
2021-12-02T14:29:52 < jpa-> H7 ram is divided in different areas, so that is something to consider depending on use
2021-12-02T14:30:12 < jpa-> they are mostly continuous but have some differences in DMA access
2021-12-02T14:30:48 < zyp> yeah, but if you've got 1.4M total, you can probably find a usable 512k block :p
2021-12-02T14:31:58 < Xogium> yeah… espeak is giving us quite some issue on f7
2021-12-02T14:32:19 < Xogium> mainly alloc issues because it tries to allocate WAY TOO MUCH ram
2021-12-02T14:32:57 < Xogium> so all in all it might be best to go higher than 512 kb ram all things considered
2021-12-02T14:34:11 < Xogium> its random like the longer the string it has to speak, it gets all the more likely that it will just crash because it can't allocate memory
2021-12-02T14:34:21 < Xogium> we even crashed it with a mutex error, of all things
2021-12-02T14:37:00 < Xogium> yep its not meant to run on a mcu initially but we want to do it, hopefully turn the thing into a more modern hardware text to speech
2021-12-02T14:37:43 < Xogium> not to mention that tts on mcu… suck. I haven't seen one single decent tts voice on any mcu. They sound like the tts voices we had in the pc era of 1980
2021-12-02T14:37:46 < Xogium> if that
2021-12-02T14:40:31 < karlp> how power constrained are you?
2021-12-02T14:40:45 < karlp> is there something wrong with just using a pizero2 or something?
2021-12-02T14:41:42 < Xogium> karlp: we could, but… it would honestly be overkill for just having serial communication with a host machine would it ?
2021-12-02T14:42:36 < Xogium> the idea is kernel space screen reader on host machine sends command, tts reads what is expected, obviously there must be some kind of protocol for them to talk to each other but…
2021-12-02T14:43:38 < Xogium> all this done for cases where linux audio just… Go poof
2021-12-02T14:44:09 < Xogium> sometimes, you don't know why, you upgrade alsa-utils and bam you lose audio. Bye bye tts, you have no braille in a lot of cases, you're lucky if you do
2021-12-02T14:45:56 < Xogium> if its not that, then its pulseaudio being a problem because of the way it must run, one session per user, screen reader in kernel space devices belong to root, so you can't hear it talk with your own user, and, even if you can by cheating with an unix socket, you have to log in blindly, because if you start the screen reader sooner than pulseaudio which only starts when you logged in, it steals the sound 
2021-12-02T14:46:02 < Xogium> card, thanks alsa, and you can only hear it, and no other app
2021-12-02T14:46:32 < srk> you can run pulse both as user service and system wide
2021-12-02T14:46:52 < Xogium> yeah… But system wide has some serious disadventages
2021-12-02T14:47:01 < karlp> well, you're not going to be running desktop multi user linux on this, I just thought it might make the porting significantly easier sofware wise...
2021-12-02T14:47:08 < srk> I run jackd systemwide and pulse as user service
2021-12-02T14:47:30 < srk> nowadays pipewire is the hot thing but I have no experience with that
2021-12-02T14:48:11 < Xogium> yeah neither do I… Friend of mine tried pipewire with the pulse compat layer, lost audio and had no sighted people around to help him firgure out where it broke
2021-12-02T14:52:42 < ventYl> pipewire is rather new thing but it looks promising
2021-12-02T14:53:21 < Xogium> karlp: sure. I'm just thinking that 512 mb of ram and giant amount of storage is overkill for this kind of thing
2021-12-02T14:53:31 < Xogium> but it could work
2021-12-02T14:54:14 < Xogium> it would be litterally the single thing this device would do, receive commands via serial, do them
2021-12-02T14:56:52 < Xogium> but yes, having linux behind it would mean less hard work, that's for sure
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2021-12-02T15:33:17 < karlp> what is on the "micro" controller side in your design that you need right now?
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2021-12-02T15:35:41 < Xogium> karlp: what do you mean ? Sorry, I'm all new to this
2021-12-02T15:35:47 < Xogium> so trying to learn ;)
2021-12-02T15:39:25 < karlp> what made you pick this project to use a MCU anyway? 
2021-12-02T15:41:30 < Xogium> karlp: mostly wanting to learn mcu, since I honestly don't know what else I would do with one just yet apart from this. That and the fact I was hoping to avoid linux audio issues like the ones I just mentioned. If I upgrade the OS on the rpi that serves as my tts then lose audio, I'm in no better place than I was before, without the rpi
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2021-12-02T15:42:00 < josuah> complete operating systems also need maintainance at times
2021-12-02T15:42:12 < Xogium> josuah: yes, my point
2021-12-02T15:42:30 < karlp> so how was the MCU version meant to work?
2021-12-02T15:43:13 < karlp> josuah: nah, moutnains of standalone devices that never get updates or maintennance.
2021-12-02T15:43:36 < josuah> is that not a problem?
2021-12-02T15:44:25 < Xogium> karlp: mostly running espeak on rtos, to have realtime as much as possible, or bare metal, not quite sure yet what would be better. The idea is it would be connected over usb to the pc, probably using cdc_acm device for serial emulation, and it would receive command from the host pc -- in non tech terms like, say this string that just popped on screen
2021-12-02T15:44:55 < Xogium> the screen reader on the host would be communicating with the mcu, and espeak would be used to say what it would be sent
2021-12-02T15:45:35 < josuah> there are a lot of software in a complete OS, if they are all 99% safe, for 100 packages, it is already 99% * 99% * ... = 36% safe
2021-12-02T15:46:02 < josuah> although, "unsafe" could be "well, the font can be turned off due to a security issue in the font engine"
2021-12-02T15:46:11 < Xogium> there'd be audio output on the mcu board of course
2021-12-02T15:46:11 < josuah> so not that dire
2021-12-02T15:46:31 < Xogium> josuah: yeah
2021-12-02T15:46:56 < Xogium> josuah: sometimes embedded linux is good, but sometimes it's a lot to worry about
2021-12-02T15:46:57 < karlp> I think you're massivly overstating the need for updates ifyou're building a usb gadget device.
2021-12-02T15:47:18 < josuah> if it is not connected and accessible to internet, then sure!
2021-12-02T15:48:02 < josuah> the need for security is low when the device is not accessible from the outside on the first place
2021-12-02T15:49:03 < Xogium> sure don't plan on having it reachable over ethernet, that would be pretty strange
2021-12-02T15:49:48 < Xogium> oh sure I could update via ethernet but… That would litterally be the only usage it could have
2021-12-02T15:50:02 < josuah> so that means actively disabling networking: making sure there is no DHCP or SLAAC
2021-12-02T15:50:05 < Xogium> and if I really have to upgrade I was more thinking like DFU
2021-12-02T15:50:35 < Xogium> but like I say I'm just all new to mcu, and trying to learn, for the most part
2021-12-02T15:51:42 < bitmask> disable ethernet and its already more secure than 90% of the shit thats out there :/
2021-12-02T15:52:27 < josuah> bitmask: even better thanks
2021-12-02T15:52:39 < josuah> like turning interfaces down
2021-12-02T15:52:43 < Xogium> disable networking ;)
2021-12-02T15:52:46 < bitmask> :)
2021-12-02T15:53:15 < Xogium> josuah: also if the pcb itself doesn't have ethernet, would be even better
2021-12-02T15:54:49 < josuah> karlp: I think I am a bit clueless regarding doing linux-based "firmware": do you use trimmed down linux distribution with a tiny userland and a few drivers? or any distribution would do?
2021-12-02T15:55:27 < josuah> maybe storage has gotten cheap enough to bundle debian in every toy appliance that comes to mind
2021-12-02T15:55:28 < qyx> yocto, buildroot and friends greet you
2021-12-02T15:55:38 < josuah> ah, here we go :)
2021-12-02T15:56:01 < Xogium> yep I've used buildroot myself
2021-12-02T16:00:30 < josuah> with "complete operating systems" I had common desktop/server distributions, with problems like https://bootstrap.debian.net/history.html and https://wiki.debian.org/DependencyHell#Strongly_connected_component
2021-12-02T16:00:51 < Xogium> dependency hell indeed
2021-12-02T16:02:24 < josuah> yeah, I do not think Debian aims the firwmare kind of appliances
2021-12-02T16:02:31 < fenugrec> zyp, I think those have lead-acid memory backup somewhere that always goes bad, too
2021-12-02T16:02:39 < fenugrec> or was that on an ABB
2021-12-02T16:03:04 < zyp> there's talk of backup batteries, yes
2021-12-02T16:03:19 < Xogium> josuah: definitely not. That's why there are things like buildroot and yocto… Yocto has one hell of a learning curve, buildroot is easier… but they serve different purposes
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2021-12-02T16:03:57 < zyp> I have a love/hate relationship with yocto
2021-12-02T16:04:06 < zyp> I love the concept and hate the implementation :)
2021-12-02T16:04:32 < Xogium> zyp: the fact you managed to learn it at all is impressive, in my book. I tried, and Just decided to stick with buildroot
2021-12-02T16:04:45 < fenugrec> zyp, I forget if they just memorize the homing on all joints or there's more volatile parameters like servo tuning etc
2021-12-02T16:05:16 < zyp> fenugrec, not sure, but it's mainly the homing that matters
2021-12-02T16:05:23 < fenugrec> at least they don't do something completely dumb like save firmware and irreplaceable calibration in RAM
2021-12-02T16:05:47 < zyp> I'm thinking about keeping only the power electronics and making a drop in replacement for the cpu board
2021-12-02T16:06:17 < fenugrec> interesting. Still reuse the pendant / teach thing ?
2021-12-02T16:06:41 < zyp> documentation has full pinout: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/813547772337979442/913474743200538664/IMG_20211125_170014.jpg
2021-12-02T16:06:52 < zyp> probably not worth reusing the pendant
2021-12-02T16:07:23 < fenugrec> eh, if it has encoders, a screen, buttons etc, it's nice to have that already made and packaged ?
2021-12-02T16:08:02 < zyp> depends how usable the protocol is and how hard it would be to figure out :)
2021-12-02T16:08:08 < fenugrec> agreed
2021-12-02T16:08:37 < fenugrec> or rip out the cpu in the pendant if they were nice enough to have encoders etc on a wire2board connector
2021-12-02T16:08:59 < zyp> doesn't have encoders, only membrane keyboard and emergency stop
2021-12-02T16:09:07 < fenugrec> o
2021-12-02T16:09:49 < fenugrec> argh, DK order placed 5 days ago still not shipped
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2021-12-02T16:09:56 < zyp> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826884015054127104/914639028555493446/IMG_20211128_230818.jpg
2021-12-02T16:10:02 < zyp> there's the cpu board
2021-12-02T16:10:20 < fenugrec> ah , the classic potted fanuc mystery-ICs
2021-12-02T16:11:06 < fenugrec> supercap for ram backup , cool
2021-12-02T16:11:22 < zyp> I figure a minimal replacement would need the backplane connector to grab power and the two 100-pin connectors for encoders and pwm signals, respectively
2021-12-02T16:11:41 < Xogium> zyp: what are you toying with ?
2021-12-02T16:12:24 < zyp> and maybe JRM3/JRM10 to hook up to the original buttons and lights
2021-12-02T16:12:33 < zyp> Xogium, a 25 year old fanuc robot
2021-12-02T16:13:06 < Xogium> oh wow
2021-12-02T16:13:10 < Xogium> that sounds fun
2021-12-02T16:13:22 < fenugrec> it's a project in a project in a project, I'm sure
2021-12-02T16:13:40 < zyp> yeah, first of all I should try to get it running as is :)
2021-12-02T16:13:45 < Xogium> reminds me of me wanting to clean my braille display… but not having a damn clue how its put together, where its safe to touch or not -- damn capacitors
2021-12-02T16:13:57 < zyp> just need some more space first, at the moment it's crammed into my storage shed
2021-12-02T16:14:17 < fenugrec> those things like to be bolted into concrete
2021-12-02T16:14:27 < Xogium> I wonder if internet has pictures of opened up braille displays so you can see all the electronics and whatever inside them
2021-12-02T16:14:32 < zyp> it came with a steel base
2021-12-02T16:15:01 < fenugrec> probably ok, even a quick traverse stop&go won't topple it over\
2021-12-02T16:15:08 < fenugrec> man those things are scary fast
2021-12-02T16:15:23 < englishman> what kind of environment was it in and how much was it zyp?
2021-12-02T16:15:38 < Xogium> mine's a *very* old display, dating back from when germany didn't even use euro as money yet. I'm not sure what time it date back to, given I can't find a single thing, not even user manual about it now
2021-12-02T16:15:47 < englishman> that looks pretty nice for 1996
2021-12-02T16:16:05 < Xogium> but… lets say 1990
2021-12-02T16:16:17 < zyp> englishman, somebody were tired of their old toy taking up room and gave it away
2021-12-02T16:16:24 < englishman> hell yeah
2021-12-02T16:16:36 < englishman> 9524 date code on that chip, nice
2021-12-02T16:16:58 < englishman> did it fit in the back of the hyundai?
2021-12-02T16:17:28 < zyp> nah, I brought a friend with a van
2021-12-02T16:17:47 < englishman> i wonder if there could be enough cheap ebay parts to get it working with a pendant
2021-12-02T16:18:04 < zyp> what do you mean?
2021-12-02T16:18:15 < zyp> I have the full original system, pendant and all
2021-12-02T16:18:29 < englishman> ah, but it seems too obstreperous to use?
2021-12-02T16:19:20 < zyp> it's probably fine if you want to do like «pick up shit at position A, drop off shit at position B»
2021-12-02T16:19:23 < fenugrec> ebay parts for that kind of thing can be tricky. You'll find scalpers charging insane prices hoping to milk a company that absolutely needs to put one of these back in service ASAP
2021-12-02T16:19:26 < mawk> what is that word
2021-12-02T16:19:31 < mawk> obstreperous
2021-12-02T16:20:04 < fenugrec> chiant à utiliser
2021-12-02T16:20:06 < englishman> tapageuse
2021-12-02T16:20:11 < zyp> I figure it'll be more fun to do stuff like slapping an extruder/hotend on it and checking how it performs as a 3d printer :p
2021-12-02T16:20:45 < englishman> hehe
2021-12-02T16:20:52 < BrainDamage> silicone caulk gun squeezed by the arm
2021-12-02T16:21:01 < Xogium> if anyone can manage to find something about the handytech braille window pro, I'd be surprised
2021-12-02T16:21:16 < mawk> are you french fenugrec ?????????????
2021-12-02T16:21:19 < Xogium> I know its old enough that usb wasn't even a thing
2021-12-02T16:22:06 < mawk> Graphic Window Professional Xogium ?
2021-12-02T16:22:24 < mawk> that's the proper full name apparently
2021-12-02T16:22:30 < mawk> abbreviated GWP
2021-12-02T16:22:47 < Xogium> mawk: the guy who soled it to me said it was a braille window pro by handytech. Prolly worth about 16k euro today
2021-12-02T16:23:01 < Xogium> hm
2021-12-02T16:23:16 < mawk> the closest matching handytech name is what I said
2021-12-02T16:23:19 < mawk> sounds like it
2021-12-02T16:24:57 < mawk> it's from 2001 Xogium 
2021-12-02T16:25:35 < Xogium> hmm well I don't see any graphic capability on mine
2021-12-02T16:26:04 < Xogium> mawk: do you have pictures ? Mine is 80 characters and has only a serial port… Like db9
2021-12-02T16:26:05 < mawk> I found info about it
2021-12-02T16:26:13 < mawk> yes serial port
2021-12-02T16:26:16 < mawk> https://web.archive.org/web/20101123102535/http://www.emptech.info/product_details.php?ID=2447
2021-12-02T16:26:31 < mawk> using the wayback machine I found an old website where they described it
2021-12-02T16:26:42 < Xogium> hm that's surprising… 2001, you'd think they'd use usb
2021-12-02T16:27:05 < mawk> yeah
2021-12-02T16:27:30 < mawk> they say it's 24 by 16 tactile pins
2021-12-02T16:27:40 < mawk> that's the "graphic" part of it
2021-12-02T16:27:52 < BrainDamage> 2001 was stiill early adoption for usb
2021-12-02T16:28:10 < Steffanx> Didn't try to contact handytech Xogium ? For extra insider info.
2021-12-02T16:28:11 < BrainDamage> plenty of keyb/mice were still ps/2
2021-12-02T16:28:34 < Xogium> hmm 24 by 16 tactile pins ? That doesn't sound like braille
2021-12-02T16:28:53 < Xogium> mine is only regular braille
2021-12-02T16:29:05 < mawk> it costed 10300 euros
2021-12-02T16:29:06 < Xogium> 80 cells of 8 dots
2021-12-02T16:29:08 < mawk> in 2001
2021-12-02T16:29:10 < mawk> ah
2021-12-02T16:29:16 < mawk> then the guy got the name wrong then
2021-12-02T16:29:31 < Xogium> mawk: also, note what I said, this display was made back when germany did not use euro as their money, yet
2021-12-02T16:29:42 < mawk> I converted to euro myself Xogium 
2021-12-02T16:29:46 < Xogium> ah
2021-12-02T16:29:57 < mawk> it's listed as british pounds on the website
2021-12-02T16:30:04 < mawk> then I corrected for inflation and converted to euro
2021-12-02T16:30:15 < mawk> which makes around 10k euros
2021-12-02T16:30:23 < Xogium> Steffanx: I did try to contact handytech, but they basically told me to buy a new display since it has been discontinued sl long ago
2021-12-02T16:30:40 < Xogium> *so long
2021-12-02T16:32:05 < mawk> there's nothing else in their product lineup with that name, Xogium 
2021-12-02T16:32:20 < mawk> either what I found is the right one. either the guy that sold it to you was wrong about the name
2021-12-02T16:32:25 < mawk> can you send a pic?
2021-12-02T16:32:36 < Xogium> I can try
2021-12-02T16:34:02 < BrainDamage> autofocus must've been a kiiler feature for taking pics when being visually impaired
2021-12-02T16:34:29 < mawk> yeah
2021-12-02T16:37:37 < Steffanx> Xogium: don't take a selfie by accident 😉
2021-12-02T16:37:39 < Steffanx> ;)
2021-12-02T16:38:04 < Steffanx> How does your screen reader handle emoticons? 😈
2021-12-02T16:39:15 < Steffanx> So many questions when Xogium is here. Questions I never had before. 
2021-12-02T16:39:39 < Xogium> Steffanx: it handles them vocally, but not in braille, since there's no unicode
2021-12-02T16:39:46 < Steffanx> Hope you dont take it the wrong way, because for some reason it's interesting to know all this
2021-12-02T16:39:46 < Xogium> so it just shows ?
2021-12-02T16:39:59 < Xogium> naaah of course not
2021-12-02T16:41:37 < Steffanx> But what does it day? Winking face? Smiling devil with horns? Etc.? 
2021-12-02T16:41:41 < Steffanx> Say.
2021-12-02T16:41:43 < Steffanx> Lol.
2021-12-02T16:42:29 < Xogium> mawk: I believe I got it
2021-12-02T16:42:31 < Xogium> https://paste.xogium.me/hm.jpg
2021-12-02T16:42:48 < Xogium> Steffanx: yep smiling face with horns
2021-12-02T16:43:45 < Xogium> emoji support is very recent, 3 years ago it wouldn't have said a thing
2021-12-02T16:44:03 < mawk> right Xogium , so that's not the GWP indeed
2021-12-02T16:44:15 < mawk> there's no name or label of any kind on the device. at least this side
2021-12-02T16:44:23 < Xogium> erk
2021-12-02T16:44:29 < Xogium> great
2021-12-02T16:44:35 < mawk> I see you have nice blue christmas decoration on the desk
2021-12-02T16:44:50 < Xogium> yeah this stupid thing keeps falling :(
2021-12-02T16:44:56 < mawk> and even a RGB keyboard! are you sure you're not seeing?
2021-12-02T16:45:12 < Xogium> its suppose to be up on the wall, but it keeps falling down so I went like, jeez, ok, whatever
2021-12-02T16:45:31 < Xogium> hehe yeah, I just liked the mechanical feel
2021-12-02T16:45:49 < Steffanx> Your desk is most certainly cleaner than mine 😄
2021-12-02T16:46:32 < Xogium> really ? It feels like I've got a massive clutter
2021-12-02T16:47:42 < BrainDamage> are you completely blind or can you see vague shapes?
2021-12-02T16:48:06 < fenugrec> mawk, pas de france, QC
2021-12-02T16:48:07 < Xogium> BrainDamage: totally blind
2021-12-02T16:49:41 < fenugrec> Xogium, that was a better photo than what a lot of perfectly seeing people can do when they post for-sale ads
2021-12-02T16:50:10 < Xogium> really ? Darn
2021-12-02T16:50:31 < Xogium> great so now everyone knows I've got ubiquiti switch :p
2021-12-02T16:51:18 < Xogium> hm unless it was masked by the keyboard I pushed off my display
2021-12-02T16:51:22 < BrainDamage> french 🏴󠁣󠁡󠁱󠁣󠁿  (quebeqoise), french  🇫🇷 (simplified)
2021-12-02T16:51:43 < Steffanx> I more curious what the braille below the bar says: l'a .. something ?
2021-12-02T16:52:29 < Xogium> Steffanx: it was the prompt of my irc client so in here, [##stm32]
2021-12-02T16:53:05 < Xogium> but kind of bogus, because needs one hell of a clean up
2021-12-02T16:54:22 < Steffanx> No I mean between keys on the bottom and your braille bar there's something. Was wondering if it was the brand or something in braille.
2021-12-02T16:54:28 < Xogium> I know the general idea, but I don't know what is safe to touch or what shouldn't, at all. The idea is each braille cells has a plastic cover, you take that off, and then you get access to the metal pins with braille dots sticking out of them, they rest on one piezo element per pin
2021-12-02T16:54:45 < Xogium> they aren't tied down, just resting against the piezo at the bottom of the cell
2021-12-02T16:55:30 < Xogium> Steffanx: ohh that ? It is to mark each  group of cells
2021-12-02T16:55:36 < Steffanx> Aah
2021-12-02T16:55:42 < Xogium> like a graduated bar
2021-12-02T16:56:04 < englishman> truth BrainDamage 
2021-12-02T16:56:39 < BrainDamage> there might be a label on the backside
2021-12-02T16:57:11 < Xogium> yeah hmm I'll have to be very carful when flipping ot over, this damn thing weighs about 5 kg if not more
2021-12-02T16:57:22 < Xogium> er, when flipping it over
2021-12-02T16:57:53 < Xogium> I have the feeling the pcb in there is giant
2021-12-02T16:59:13 < BrainDamage> probably plenty of transformers/coils to drive the motors
2021-12-02T16:59:13 < Xogium> err, can one disconnect rs232 without issue, or should I power down the device first ?
2021-12-02T16:59:21 < Xogium> yeah that too
2021-12-02T16:59:52 < BrainDamage> well, the driver may crash
2021-12-02T17:00:10 < Xogium> hmm as in tty driver ?
2021-12-02T17:00:20 < BrainDamage> doesn't come with hotplug detection
2021-12-02T17:00:32 < BrainDamage> oh, it's a true serial?
2021-12-02T17:00:39 < BrainDamage> then just yank it off
2021-12-02T17:00:41 < Xogium> yes, I added a pcie bracket in my tower to expose a rs232 port for it :p I know, I could have used a usb converter, but…
2021-12-02T17:00:55 < Xogium> I figure, well I can save a usb port that way so why not ?
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2021-12-02T17:01:13 < Steffanx> Xogium: It comes with a battery ?
2021-12-02T17:01:23 < Xogium> Steffanx: nop, psu
2021-12-02T17:01:31 < Xogium> original psu at that
2021-12-02T17:02:13 < Xogium> it still works after all this time hehe
2021-12-02T17:02:39 < Xogium> now lets see about flipping it over
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2021-12-02T17:16:13 < josuah> so these (overpriced!) braille displays are accessible as a TTY?
2021-12-02T17:20:30 < karlp> was probably far and away the most rational way of doing it in the 90s?
2021-12-02T17:23:28 < josuah> makes a lot of sense for debugging
2021-12-02T17:24:07 < BrainDamage> it makes sense nowdays too somehow, but probably fits a niche use case
2021-12-02T17:24:43 < BrainDamage> dumb hw, smart sw gives you flexibility
2021-12-02T17:25:09 < BrainDamage> hence why sdr and the like are all the rage nowdays
2021-12-02T17:25:56 < josuah> there looks like having some software for low-level linux debug too like https://brltty.app/
2021-12-02T17:27:00 < josuah> BrainDamage: not only a niche, in the end features that make sense help no only people without sight, but to anyone
2021-12-02T17:27:20 < josuah> like ability to have the serial console enabled and active by default
2021-12-02T17:28:10 < josuah> that helps with any user who can only interact with text: blind people, qemu user without a screen enabled, expect scripts for automating initial system install/config, etc
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2021-12-02T17:30:55 < josuah> there were interesting projects for getting a home-made braille display like https://hackaday.io/project/12442-molbed-modular-low-cost-braille-electronic-display for cutting the crazy costs of these devices
2021-12-02T17:31:29 < Xogium> ahah there we go
2021-12-02T17:32:48 < Xogium> nowadays its all usb and bluetooth crap
2021-12-02T17:33:31 < Xogium> I managed to capture this with my phone, hopefull it is readable
2021-12-02T17:35:12 < Xogium> if I can manage to give you the link, that is
2021-12-02T17:37:24 < jpa-> i wonder if one could put some kind of electrode matrix to provide sense on top side, and a mouse sensor on underside; kind of like a tiny window to a larger display, and when you move your finger you sense whatever the mouse cursor moves over
2021-12-02T17:38:20 < Xogium> https://cloud.xogium.me/s/i67Eg5a7EnK7JGD
2021-12-02T17:38:23 < Xogium> oof finally
2021-12-02T17:39:55 < josuah> handy tech elektronik gmbh braille-window 84
2021-12-02T17:40:36 < Xogium> mmmh so braille window… I definitely can't find any doc on it anywhere
2021-12-02T17:41:33 < Steffanx> What are you trying to figure out Xogium?
2021-12-02T17:42:12 < Xogium> Steffanx: trying to see if there'd be any doc or even any pics of it opened up to show how to disassemble it to clean up the cells
2021-12-02T17:42:18 < Steffanx> Ah
2021-12-02T17:42:42 < Xogium> I mean its pretty easy to figure out the screws you need to unscrew to open it, but what's safe to touch or not touch, hrm
2021-12-02T17:43:01 < fenugrec> and not lose any pins in the carpet
2021-12-02T17:43:07 < Xogium> that too hehe
2021-12-02T17:43:10 < Steffanx> To me it sounds funny.. a braille thing with a label not in braille.
2021-12-02T17:43:19 < Steffanx> Whyyyyyy?
2021-12-02T17:43:47 < Xogium> no idea
2021-12-02T17:44:10 < Xogium> maybe they figured they spent enough cost making it and braille label was just that little bit more over the top
2021-12-02T17:44:23 < Steffanx> Can't even find pictures on the Internet of exactly the same model
2021-12-02T17:44:32 < Xogium> heh
2021-12-02T17:44:40 < Xogium> its very old for sure
2021-12-02T17:45:16 < Xogium> somewhere around 1994 or 1995
2021-12-02T17:45:35 < ventYl> that still ~8 years ahead of typical automotive company
2021-12-02T17:45:44 < Xogium> since that was then they changed their name to handytech elecronics gmbh
2021-12-02T17:45:44 < josuah> they seem to have info about the "braille wave", but not much about "braille window 84"
2021-12-02T17:46:54 < Xogium> honestly my only other alternative to clean this up is to have it done by a professional center, with an ultrasonic bath, about 400 km away from here
2021-12-02T17:48:03 < Steffanx> Mawk will visit you and do it for you. He's a good French comarade 
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2021-12-02T17:50:09 < josuah> that is the oldest I see on web.archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/19990209093532/http://www.handytech.de/produkte/e_prod.htm
2021-12-02T17:51:48 < josuah> but no "braille window" at all, it is only "braille wave"
2021-12-02T17:52:01 < josuah> although there is braille window software! maybe the device is braille wave?
2021-12-02T17:53:04 < Xogium> mmm not sure
2021-12-02T17:53:18 < josuah> braille wave doc: https://helptech.de/uploads/605_en.pdf (just in case)
2021-12-02T17:53:59 < josuah> or braille star 80
2021-12-02T17:54:00 < mawk> made in germoney
2021-12-02T17:54:41 < josuah> hey, the braille star 80 really looks like the one from your photo
2021-12-02T17:55:38 < josuah> I mean the https://paste.xogium.me/hm.jpg photo
2021-12-02T17:56:43 < josuah> the placement of the f-keys is a bit more "ergonomic" in the braille star, but it has the same large horizontal touch display and a pad for a complete keyboard on top
2021-12-02T17:56:47 < Xogium> when I asked them for help they said to give up on it because it was discontinued long ago lol
2021-12-02T17:57:17 < josuah> very "nice" :/
2021-12-02T17:57:41 < Xogium> yeah, but its just to get more money :p they showed off their other more modern displays
2021-12-02T17:58:57 < Xogium> yep definitely not a braille wave, at least
2021-12-02T17:59:34 < josuah> braille star 80 doc: https://helptech.de/uploads/609_en.pdf (just in case)
2021-12-02T17:59:53 < Xogium> mhm will read it
2021-12-02T18:01:57 < Xogium> that sounds like a kind of mini computer
2021-12-02T18:02:10 < Xogium> there's a filesystem and all
2021-12-02T18:04:17 < josuah> I'd wish my only one output device available to be most reliable, not most featureful
2021-12-02T18:04:50 < Xogium> The Braille System must not be operated in moist rooms, for example, bathrooms,
2021-12-02T18:04:50 < Xogium> because the device generates voltages up to 200 V.
2021-12-02T18:04:51 < josuah> I am as old as the one you own! quite sturdy :)
2021-12-02T18:04:56 < Xogium> holy jeez
2021-12-02T18:05:31 < josuah> footnote1: the device might kill you
2021-12-02T18:05:40 < Xogium> quite so
2021-12-02T18:05:53 < Xogium> I think there are super capacitors in there. Or capacitors
2021-12-02T18:08:03 < Xogium> ah, its the piezo that can generate high voltage
2021-12-02T18:08:51 < Xogium> The Braille System's Braille modules utilize the highly reliable and maintenance-free piezo
2021-12-02T18:08:54 < Xogium> technology. If handled properly, you will enjoy many years of trouble-free operation.
2021-12-02T18:08:57 < Xogium> very funny
2021-12-02T18:09:05 < Xogium> then they go to mention they need to be cleaned every 2 years
2021-12-02T18:09:49 < Xogium> because at some point in time the dots will get sticky from finger oil and stuff
2021-12-02T18:10:34 < Xogium> there's only so much you can do when keeping your hands clean
2021-12-02T18:12:44 < Xogium> I'm guessing touching the piezo elements = bad idea ? But what'd I know
2021-12-02T18:22:01 < josuah> trouble-free operation... insightful, so this is a goal that can be acheived in the end
2021-12-02T18:23:14 < Xogium> josuah: so they say… they also tell you to only wipe it with a damp cloth with water, no product… No matter how much I did that, finger oil still got in. No matter how many times I washed my hands
2021-12-02T18:27:58 < josuah> too bad they did not spend a few more time on phone with someone that can feedback quite 30 years of us of a product
2021-12-02T18:28:50 < josuah> there is rarely an opportunity to fix problems that happen after so long
2021-12-02T18:29:18 < Xogium> heh
2021-12-02T18:29:19 < josuah> the original engineer test 30 hours in its test lab, then the product gets sold
2021-12-02T18:29:42 < Xogium> every modern braille display of any brand has that problem
2021-12-02T18:30:19 < Xogium> but I think, as soon as you get mechanical, piezo like, you get problems
2021-12-02T18:31:02 < Xogium> moving dots up and down is nice, sure. But these dots will be in contact with sticky finger oil one moment or another
2021-12-02T18:31:12 < BrainDamage> you could have a disposable membrane cover
2021-12-02T18:31:18 < Xogium> then this drags dusts and dirt into it, and so on
2021-12-02T18:31:41 < BrainDamage> it'd have to be soft, so fast wear
2021-12-02T18:32:16 < BrainDamage> but you could say, ship with 100 or so replacments for decades of use
2021-12-02T18:32:25 < Xogium> not only soft but very thin, or you can't touch
2021-12-02T18:33:25 < Xogium> but yep, I've thought of it myself. I just have no idea in what material to make this from
2021-12-02T18:35:10 < BrainDamage> diy i'd try stacking 4-5 layers of kitchen wrap ... or cutting a lube-less condom
2021-12-02T18:36:00 < Xogium> hmmm
2021-12-02T18:36:12 < Xogium> the kitchen wrap, does it risk causing ESD ?
2021-12-02T18:39:03 < Xogium> for that matter… I think most condom are made from latex like balloons ? And balloones can charge with static right ?
2021-12-02T18:39:53 < Xogium> displays don't like ESD one bit, it makes the piezo go crazy
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2021-12-02T18:59:41 < fenugrec> wear gloves all the time when using it
2021-12-02T18:59:45 < Xogium> this is, litterally, the only reference I found about it on internet
2021-12-02T18:59:51 < fenugrec> keeps the oil off, but would do nothing for the dust
2021-12-02T18:59:54 < Xogium> http://archiv.incobs.de/incobs.de/en/single_products/braille_displays/stationary_brailledisplays.html#braillewindow84
2021-12-02T19:00:16 < Xogium> fenugrec: you can't touch braille with gloves
2021-12-02T19:00:18 < fenugrec> did they have a website in 99 ? webarchive may have a backup
2021-12-02T19:00:39 < Xogium> yeah they did, we checked, there's lotterally no reference of that model :p
2021-12-02T19:00:45 < Xogium> *litterally
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2021-12-02T19:01:07 < fenugrec> Xogium, even  a thin (~0.05mm)  nitrile glove ?
2021-12-02T19:02:03 < Xogium> no idea… I haven't ever seen those. Are they thiner than latex gloves ?
2021-12-02T19:02:16 < fenugrec> comparable
2021-12-02T19:02:31 < fenugrec> yea I guess the tension of the glove would  blur the distinction between the pins
2021-12-02T19:02:39 < fenugrec> damn fingers, eh
2021-12-02T19:02:49 < Xogium> yep
2021-12-02T19:03:24 < Xogium> damn I sure wasn't that far off with my estimated weight of 5 kg earlier, 4.7 kg it looks like
2021-12-02T19:04:42 < Xogium> that display popped out between 1994 and the 2000s for sure
2021-12-02T19:05:15 < fenugrec> toothbrush, isopropyl and a vacuum cleaner...
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2021-12-02T19:06:28 < Xogium> I tried all of these… Toothbrush did next to nothing, vacuuming drabbed only a minor bunch of stuff that were close to the surface, and isopropil alcohol created bad contacts for some buttons that entirely stopped working
2021-12-02T19:06:40 < Xogium> yecch
2021-12-02T19:07:44 < Xogium> but yeah I guess I need to figure out how to open this thing up, and to even be sure of what parts are safe to touch, I sure don't want to get a 200V shock, or whatever
2021-12-02T19:09:01 < Xogium> I'm guessing that its the piezo elements that are the dangerous part, since they are the one that handle the high voltage, so probably best to not touch them…
2021-12-02T19:09:08 < Xogium> but since I don't know for sure
2021-12-02T19:39:29 < jpa-> Xogium: have you tried an electric toothbrush?
2021-12-02T19:42:43 < Xogium> jpa-: nop, must admit I didn't try that one
2021-12-02T19:43:26 < Xogium> without opening it first you mean ?
2021-12-02T19:46:04 < jpa-> yeah, i mean just in place of normal toothbrush
2021-12-02T19:46:20 < jpa-> the difference is quite significant
2021-12-02T19:47:10 < jpa-> but hard to know if it would clean enough or not
2021-12-02T19:47:25 < fenugrec> "it's only 200V, what's the worst that can happen"
2021-12-02T19:48:48 < fenugrec> huh, apparently the piezo actuators are something like this, https://www.rapinstruments.com/product/18418-19709/high-accurancy-bimorph-actuator
2021-12-02T19:49:10 < fenugrec> bonded to a lever of some sort
2021-12-02T19:49:52 < Xogium> yeah would make sense, the lever takes care of raising the braille dot or lower int back down
2021-12-02T19:50:00 < Xogium> *lower it
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2021-12-02T21:02:13 < Xogium> though, thinking more about it, it looks like all you can do is open the display from the back, so you'd have the cells all upside down ? Hm
2021-12-02T21:02:41 < Xogium> definitely not practical to even remove their top plastic cover, if anything
2021-12-02T21:03:16 < Xogium> I mean, seems like I'd have to litterally take the whole damn thing apart
2021-12-02T21:08:51 < Xogium> hm nah I think I can feel spaces for tiny screws, 2 of them, one on each side of the power cord socket
2021-12-02T21:09:14 < Xogium> but 2 screws that would hole the entire top cover down ? Sounds insane
2021-12-02T21:09:27 < Xogium> *hold
2021-12-02T21:43:58 < fenugrec> maybe screws along one edge and shitty plastic clips along the opposite edge.
2021-12-02T21:44:24 < fenugrec> I admire your bravery, taking that thing apart... Hope you have a backup
2021-12-02T21:44:47 < fenugrec> beware of brittle 25-y-o plastic clips
2021-12-02T22:08:18 < BrainDamage> i'd search for a solvent that works on finger grease but not the plastics of the device
2021-12-02T22:08:37 < BrainDamage> then you won't need to dismantle it
2021-12-02T22:38:03 < fenugrec> that would be soap, but needs water and that brings its own problems
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--- Day changed Fri Dec 03 2021
2021-12-03T00:11:17 < Xogium> fenugrec: nop I don't have a backup, too expensive hardware. Its either left in that state for years, or I clean it, since sending it to a professional would cost a bit, not to mention the 400 km or so it would have to go through
2021-12-03T00:11:57 < Xogium> even nowadays displays like these cost between 3k and 8k usd
2021-12-03T00:13:31 < Xogium> as for soap and water, well… actually what they do in the pro cleaning centers is actually take the whole device apart, take every cell apart, and put them in an ultrasonic bath
2021-12-03T00:16:12 < Xogium> takes days for the components to be taken apart, cleaned up, then dried, then put back together and undergoing tests to make sure they work properly
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2021-12-03T01:41:24 < kakium69> hello dear
2021-12-03T01:47:47 < kakium69> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrOKZeCdaRM musics steff
2021-12-03T01:49:56 < kakium69> spotify 320kbps version etc. goood for bass booms
2021-12-03T02:05:59 < kakium69> bought speakers
2021-12-03T02:06:21 < kakium69> stereo
2021-12-03T02:07:18 < kakium69> no nonsense just 10" bass and separate midrange and tweeter
2021-12-03T02:07:32 < kakium69> from year 1976
2021-12-03T02:08:50 < fenugrec> Xogium, so if you mess up or lose parts, you're kind of stuck... how are you going to ##stm32  with no line printer !
2021-12-03T02:09:22 < fenugrec> in that teardown vid the guy wasn't nervous about touching stuff but he did dump out a bunch of pins, so there's definitely a risk of losing those hehe
2021-12-03T02:37:39 < BrainDamage> kakium69: my speakers are from the 70s too
2021-12-03T02:38:12 < BrainDamage> the build is so elegant they look like a piece of decoration furniture
2021-12-03T02:38:12 < kakium69> I bought the exact one I exploded with power
2021-12-03T02:38:23 < kakium69> not so with mine BrainDamage
2021-12-03T02:38:32 < kakium69> Salora KS-330 look it up
2021-12-03T02:39:02 < BrainDamage> http://www.audiocostruzioni.com/r_s/diffusori/toshiba-concave-ss37/verticale.jpg
2021-12-03T02:40:06 < BrainDamage> the original front panel was looking like shit, so i've had the fabric replaced for 10 bucks
2021-12-03T02:40:11 < kakium69> what a beauty
2021-12-03T02:43:04 < kakium69> I think I could buy more of these saloras
2021-12-03T02:43:15 < kakium69> then combine them for more power
2021-12-03T02:44:25 < BrainDamage> https://i.imgur.com/SaiHaod.jpg
2021-12-03T02:44:35 < BrainDamage> this is with the new cover
2021-12-03T02:46:40 < BrainDamage> having multiple speakers in general makes sense
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2021-12-03T02:47:24 < BrainDamage> it lets you have a bigger area where the wavefronts meet
2021-12-03T02:48:28 < BrainDamage> so the best listening spot gets more than just a 1m radius cylinder
2021-12-03T02:49:35 < BrainDamage> think of it like a phased array, and soundbarss are the extreme version of it
2021-12-03T03:02:09 < kakium69> did you get those yourself?
2021-12-03T03:02:16 < kakium69> or inherit them?
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2021-12-03T03:04:28 < BrainDamage> bought them used
2021-12-03T03:06:26 < kakium6914> how did you learn about hi-fi?
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2021-12-03T03:07:37 < kakium6914> you were the right age to learn?
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2021-12-03T03:08:49 < kakium> I found the old saloras from storage
2021-12-03T03:09:12 < kakium> then connected them to 70s 80s thing box
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2021-12-03T03:09:55 < kakium69> then wanted to connect them to computer or cd player
2021-12-03T03:10:11 < kakium69> first RX amp
2021-12-03T03:10:42 < kakium69> started blasting
2021-12-03T03:11:30 < BrainDamage> yeah, i was in high school and played guitar in a band, was wondering why some concerts sounded like shit while other not
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2021-12-03T03:17:28 < BrainDamage> also, the music culture was pretty strong here
2021-12-03T03:18:07 < BrainDamage> as in, kids would dress and make social circles depending on what music they'd listen to
2021-12-03T03:18:15 < BrainDamage> and even have fights over
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2021-12-03T08:56:24 < Xogium> fenugrec: yep, definite possibility… but I can't do a thing about it, other than try and be beyond careful
2021-12-03T08:56:52 < Xogium> fenugrec: its either that or one day the display will be entirely useless
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2021-12-03T16:54:02 < jadew> I'm getting diagnostics from various places and part of that it's available wifi networks strength, but with it, I'm also getting the AP's name
2021-12-03T16:54:18 < jadew> some are funny: Drop it like it's hotspot
2021-12-03T16:54:28 < jadew> girls gone wireless
2021-12-03T16:54:40 < mawk> lol
2021-12-03T16:55:05 < mawk> are you doing it in GDPR compliance jadew ????
2021-12-03T16:55:16 < jadew> it's not happening in a GDPR country :P
2021-12-03T16:55:44 < jadew> but I don't have to, because it's our equipment and we agreed to it :)
2021-12-03T17:05:56 < ventYl> does AP name, if it is not associated with any information of any person, fall under GDPR?
2021-12-03T17:06:54 < mawk> probably yes
2021-12-03T17:06:59 < mawk> since you can relate it to a location
2021-12-03T17:07:12 < mawk> just like a bike for instance
2021-12-03T17:07:15 < mawk> it
2021-12-03T17:07:20 < mawk> it's uniquely identifiable
2021-12-03T17:07:27 < mawk> when it's a weird model
2021-12-03T17:07:37 < ventYl> that doesn't suffice AFAIK
2021-12-03T17:07:42 < ventYl> it has to be bound with name
2021-12-03T17:08:07 < mawk> why
2021-12-03T17:08:13 < mawk> it has to be related to a person with a name
2021-12-03T17:08:19 < mawk> but the name doesn't have to be in the data directly
2021-12-03T17:08:20 < mawk> it
2021-12-03T17:08:23 < mawk> oops
2021-12-03T17:08:27 < mawk> I hate qwerty
2021-12-03T17:08:49 < ventYl> how are you going to bind AP name with specific name?
2021-12-03T17:09:36 < ventYl> if you fire up sniffer in any city with a bit better chipset, you'll get like 250 AP names with just one scan
2021-12-03T17:11:22 < mawk> you don't have to imagine
2021-12-03T17:11:25 < mawk> google/apple already do it
2021-12-03T17:11:31 < ventYl> I know
2021-12-03T17:11:33 < mawk> like the google car does it for instance
2021-12-03T17:11:52 < ventYl> not just car, every android phone sends a list of APs at given location
2021-12-03T17:11:58 < mawk> well then you have a name tied to a personal location; even if you don't know the person name that's identifying information
2021-12-03T17:12:01 < mawk> yeah
2021-12-03T17:12:10 < ventYl> with or without GPS data depending on if you have GPS enabled or not
2021-12-03T17:13:06 < ventYl> I am not sure if GDPR goes that far, GDPR is AFAIK OK, as long as you don't have any identifying legal name associated with your data
2021-12-03T17:13:16 < ventYl> that's different approach to cookie law
2021-12-03T17:14:06 < jadew> I think the issue is when you use that data to identify the person collecting the data, but in this case we know who has the device and where they are
2021-12-03T17:15:21 < BrainDamage> my ssid contains ascii art porn
2021-12-03T17:28:16 < ventYl> oh jesus, it's hard to communicate with people of Quebec
2021-12-03T17:28:53 < ventYl> like 50% of them speaks french, they just use english words
2021-12-03T17:29:02 < Xogium> yup
2021-12-03T17:29:21 < Xogium> well… quebec is the only province of canada where french is the official spoken language
2021-12-03T17:37:55 < fenugrec> ventYl, FR-CA is easy, try New brunswick french
2021-12-03T17:38:33 < Xogium> OH boy
2021-12-03T17:38:38 < Xogium> hardcore
2021-12-03T17:41:14 < fenugrec> are you in .ca Xogium  ?
2021-12-03T17:41:46 < ventYl> fenugrec: not what I like to do that. they are simply just a customer
2021-12-03T17:54:39 < Xogium> hmmph so it looks like the screws I found litterally hold the power sockets and stuff together, and do nothing more than that, that's why they are on either side of the hole for the power cord
2021-12-03T17:55:12 < Xogium> guess the only other way would be to open it up from the back and litterally take it apart, board and all, and I am NOT doing that
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2021-12-03T18:34:29 < srk> I'm using cat, black cat and pile of poo (iot) emojis as my ssids
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--- Day changed Sat Dec 04 2021
2021-12-04T00:05:40 < kakium69> Steffanx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrOKZeCdaRM
2021-12-04T00:06:11 < kakium69> musics
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2021-12-04T01:20:50 < Steffanx> Damn I was going to return the music to you kaki69
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2021-12-04T02:14:56 < sauce> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctA4oQUaVGY musicspam?
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2021-12-04T08:14:31 < jadew> man... something weird just happened with bitcoin
2021-12-04T08:14:52 < jadew> I had a short position, it started dipping bad, and when I was about to close it the fucking broker suspended trading
2021-12-04T08:15:14 < jadew> now it bounced back quite a bit and I can't even close my position
2021-12-04T08:15:27 < specing> time to sue
2021-12-04T08:16:08 < jadew> it wasn't a big position, but I had $615 gains when it got stuck
2021-12-04T08:16:16 < specing> jadew: also -> #bitcoin #bitcoin-pricetalk #trading
2021-12-04T08:16:43 < jadew> oh, didn't know those exist, but I guess it doesn't matter anymore
2021-12-04T08:16:58 < jadew> I can't reach my broker and the platform didn't start operating yet
2021-12-04T08:17:13 < specing> which broker is that?
2021-12-04T08:17:17 < jadew> xtb
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2021-12-04T08:36:55 < jadew> it came back up
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2021-12-04T10:01:28 < ventYl> I guess that bitcoin is simply too volatile for traditional brokers
2021-12-04T10:02:20 < jpa-> suspended trading is a perfectly normal mechanism even for less volatile stocks
2021-12-04T10:05:56 < ventYl> well, if you want to trade bitcoin, then probably go to pure crypto broker, which doesn't care about the volatility
2021-12-04T10:17:41 < jadew> well, I can understand suspending the ability to get in, but they suspended my ability to get out
2021-12-04T10:17:53 < jadew> I already had an open position
2021-12-04T10:18:37 < jadew> to me it sounds criminal
2021-12-04T10:22:07 < jpa-> how would you close it if there was no-one to trade with?
2021-12-04T10:27:26 < jadew> there were lots of people selling
2021-12-04T10:27:45 < jadew> (that's why it was going down)
2021-12-04T10:27:55 < jadew> and I was a buyer
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2021-12-04T12:51:16 < Steffanx> Buttcoin 💩💩
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2021-12-04T19:09:13 < Steffanx> kakium69: musics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf2VErVh4CQ
2021-12-04T19:10:11 < josuah> we could make some kind of bitcoins, except entirely static, with proof of physical objects, like say... proof of print
2021-12-04T19:10:38 < josuah> oh, that is how the regular money works already :P
2021-12-04T19:12:14 < kakium69> we could let cryptos crash
2021-12-04T19:14:15 < josuah> "there I ruined it" suits the plot of the song above
2021-12-04T19:15:28 < kakium69> Steffanx: you can't fool me. I know you can't help listening to Mariah Carrey
2021-12-04T19:19:46 < kakium69> BrainDamage: why not SS-47 but SS-37?
2021-12-04T19:20:16 < kakium69> practicality?
2021-12-04T19:25:35 < BrainDamage> because that's what i could find at an affordable price back then
2021-12-04T19:35:00 < kakium69> yes
2021-12-04T19:35:18 < kakium69> that has been the most common model back then
2021-12-04T19:50:29 < kakium69> because of practical size and price
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2021-12-04T21:00:50 < _unreal_> not sure what I'm doing wrong but I'm not able to get arduino IDE to load stm32 board profiles at all
2021-12-04T21:00:59 < _unreal_> the json file's dont work the links dont seem to work?
2021-12-04T21:01:07 < _unreal_> I just installed the latest version of arduino IDE
2021-12-04T21:02:10 < PaulFertser> _unreal_: are you sure you need arduino ide for anything at all? It's like an textbook example of the most useless IDE ever.
2021-12-04T21:03:28 < _unreal_> not going to argue the point. but I'm just trying to follow the guides online. Really my only goal is I want to get GRBL built for these stm32f401 ccu6 boards
2021-12-04T21:03:51 < _unreal_> once that is done I can design an adapter board so I can plug it into the arduino uno hat
2021-12-04T21:04:32 < PaulFertser> _unreal_: can you run the build manually, without IDE? What errors are you getting?
2021-12-04T21:06:00 < _unreal_> I have no software for building for stm32 setup on this PC or ever have for that matter
2021-12-04T21:06:14 < _unreal_> I'm just getting started
2021-12-04T21:06:25 < PaulFertser> _unreal_: where are you getting grbl from?
2021-12-04T21:06:52 < _unreal_> here is the main board addition for arduino ide https://github.com/stm32duino
2021-12-04T21:08:15 < _unreal_> https://github.com/grblHAL/STM32F4xx
2021-12-04T21:08:29 < _unreal_> That is what I'm looking at building.
2021-12-04T21:09:07 < _unreal_> the goal is to upgrade my arduino uno setup on my laser etcher. to an STM32...   the uno is painful at this point. too slow.
2021-12-04T21:09:40 < PaulFertser> _unreal_: the readme for it says install platformio and run those commands
2021-12-04T21:09:53 < _unreal_> PaulFertser, https://photos.app.goo.gl/1ejmwQjHGskbBvob9
2021-12-04T21:10:11 < _unreal_> platformio? never heard of checking
2021-12-04T21:10:32 < PaulFertser> _unreal_: nice etching
2021-12-04T21:10:53 < PaulFertser> _unreal_: https://github.com/grblHAL/STM32F4xx page literally has step-by-step instructions for building, and they do not involve arduino ide.
2021-12-04T21:11:25 < _unreal_> checking... I suck at coding to begin with and arduino is the onlything I really know hardly
2021-12-04T21:11:35 < _unreal_> CAD and design on the other hand I'm second to non
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2021-12-04T21:13:23 < _unreal_> ???????????? oooooook........ something odd is going on..... platformio.org will not load on this pc. just shows up as text no graphics
2021-12-04T21:13:23 < xnand> ?<factoid> to query, ?<factoid>=value to set, ?<factoid>-forget to unset
2021-12-04T21:13:45 < _unreal_> I think my issue is deeper then being amature
2021-12-04T21:18:00 < _unreal_> yep my web browser refuses to load the web site https://platformio.org/platformio-ide
2021-12-04T21:18:04 < _unreal_> it will not display it
2021-12-04T21:18:09 < _unreal_> sigh
2021-12-04T21:18:29 < _unreal_> dont know if I need to reboot the PC or if it has something to do with using my phone as a hot spot 
2021-12-04T21:20:00 < PaulFertser> _unreal_: weird, loads here
2021-12-04T21:20:28 < PaulFertser> _unreal_: is it same for https://docs.platformio.org/en/latest/ ?
2021-12-04T21:21:01 < PaulFertser> _unreal_: can you see https://docs.platformio.org/en/latest/core/installation.html#installation-methods ?
2021-12-04T21:22:40 < _unreal_> nope nothing is loading
2021-12-04T21:23:12 < _unreal_> could be as simple as I need to reboot the pc
2021-12-04T21:23:20 < _unreal_> it is a winblows 10 system
2021-12-04T21:23:38 < _unreal_> but I'm working on a cad drawing so I'm not about to reboot everything
2021-12-04T21:24:01 < _unreal_> downloaded on my phone. I'll just transfer it that way.
2021-12-04T21:26:45 < PaulFertser> _unreal_: running that script with python should get you a "pio" command, then you can proceed following the instructions from that grbl repo.
2021-12-04T21:28:56 < _unreal_> ok got the installer transfered installing
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2021-12-04T21:33:29 < _unreal_> fuck it I give up till I can reboot the damn thing. I have to finish these dad drawings for work which are going to take a while
2021-12-04T21:33:38 < _unreal_> dad=cad
2021-12-04T21:36:32 < _unreal_> It's just really weird. becuase hexchat is working some web browsing is working but some pages will not load at all? !!! come to think of it I think I saw a pop up for a split second from AVG.... saying it needs to reboot. wonder if it did some @$#T%R#$%@#$%@# update and its screwing up my internet.....
2021-12-04T21:36:34 < _unreal_> sigh
2021-12-04T22:22:00 < mawk> look ventYl https://i.imgur.com/sXp3fpQ.jpeg
2021-12-04T22:22:18 < mawk> I picked up a tripod
2021-12-04T22:22:41 < mawk> I can now take shots longer than 1/8 exposure
2021-12-04T22:23:16 < mawk> I also found a vintage camera repair shop in amsterdam that can repair and recalibrate mine
2021-12-04T22:23:40 < mawk> not sure by how much they will attempt to bleed me 
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2021-12-04T23:05:45  * PaulFertser is going to reflash a torch (flashlight), the amount of different firmwares for those things is overwhelming
2021-12-04T23:06:54 < karlp> they have firmwares?
2021-12-04T23:10:54 < fenugrec> mawk, I have he exact same cam, heh
2021-12-04T23:11:37 < Steffanx> Isn't 1/8 pretty hard by hand mawk?
2021-12-04T23:11:38 < fenugrec> wrong, I have the srt 200
2021-12-04T23:12:24 < Steffanx> It is with my more fancy camera and it has all the fancy image stabalization and stuff. In the body and lens.
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2021-12-04T23:14:02 < PaulFertser> karlp: attiny13a, and indeed most of the powerful torches have firmware for many years.
2021-12-04T23:14:23 < fenugrec> hmm do I use a buck regulator to go from 4S (16.8V) to 14V, or just a linear regulator and accept the >83% efficiency...
2021-12-04T23:14:34 < PaulFertser> Even those single-LED torches run firmware.
2021-12-04T23:15:30 < mawk> yeah it's hard Steffanx 
2021-12-04T23:15:43 < mawk> I have to stop breathing and focus to not move
2021-12-04T23:22:38 < qyx> fenugrec: I would say you need uck-boost
2021-12-04T23:23:29 < qyx> the usable range is 12-16.8
2021-12-04T23:23:32 < fenugrec> qyx, dropping below 14V is acceptable so just buck would do
2021-12-04T23:23:35 < fenugrec> yes
2021-12-04T23:27:04 < Steffanx> Don't forget to update the firmware of your lens, mawk ;)
2021-12-04T23:32:09 < mawk> lol
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2021-12-04T23:40:19 < Steffanx> Too bad the weather is so shitty lately mawk :(
2021-12-04T23:40:33 < Steffanx> At least here in the North it is
2021-12-04T23:40:48 < mawk> yeah here too Steffanx 
2021-12-04T23:40:53 < mawk> but it's not that cold it's fine
2021-12-04T23:41:55 < Steffanx> Cold is fine, but rainy sucks
2021-12-04T23:42:06 < mawk> yeah
2021-12-04T23:42:30 < mawk> I wanted to take a picturez with the tripod of some pretty church but then rain started to pour out from the sky
2021-12-04T23:42:30 < zyp> pff, it's not cold if it's rainy
2021-12-04T23:42:43 < mawk> and there's no builtin umbrella on the tripod
2021-12-04T23:42:58 < mawk> what heretic elucubration are you trying to produce zyp ?
2021-12-04T23:43:44 < zyp> I'm just unhappy because I moved too much snow today
2021-12-04T23:43:59 < zyp> and I probably get to repeat that tomorrow
2021-12-04T23:44:54 < Steffanx> Fun times
2021-12-04T23:45:27 < mawk> moving snow doesn't sound that bad to do
2021-12-04T23:45:55 < zyp> I don't mind if you come do it for me
2021-12-04T23:46:14 < mawk> lol
2021-12-04T23:46:22 < mawk> in which country are you again? I forgot
2021-12-04T23:46:24 < mawk> norway?
2021-12-04T23:46:28 < mawk> germoney?
2021-12-04T23:46:33 < zyp> norway
2021-12-04T23:46:39 < mawk> a
2021-12-04T23:46:46 < mawk> that sounds far away
2021-12-04T23:46:57 < zyp> pff, only a day's drive
2021-12-04T23:49:41 < Steffanx> Imagine you have to wake up early to move snow
2021-12-04T23:50:03 < zyp> nah, fuck that
2021-12-04T23:50:30 < Steffanx> You dont have to deice/snow your car I assume?
2021-12-04T23:51:28 < Steffanx> De-icing the inside of your car windows is fun.
2021-12-04T23:51:30 < zyp> more like if I need to dig my way out before work, I'll rather just show up at work later than wake up earlier
2021-12-04T23:51:39 < Steffanx> Hah yeah, me too
2021-12-04T23:51:41 < zyp> ah, no, I don't do that anymore
2021-12-04T23:52:35 < zyp> car will preheat, only issue is if I have to dig a path to get it out :p
2021-12-04T23:59:44 < kakium69> you need a roof
2021-12-04T23:59:57 < kakium69> it makes car life in winter 100% better
--- Day changed Sun Dec 05 2021
2021-12-05T00:00:06 < kakium69> no frosting
2021-12-05T00:00:15 < kakium69> no snow pile
2021-12-05T00:00:50 < kakium69> warmer car
2021-12-05T00:02:15 < Steffanx> Too many cars not enough roofs
2021-12-05T00:11:25 < zyp> kakium69, I have one
2021-12-05T00:11:44 < zyp> still plenty of room for snow to pile up between it and the road
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2021-12-05T00:14:34 < qyx> zyp: any recent norwegian snow picture?
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2021-12-05T00:19:05 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/h1MiU.mp4
2021-12-05T00:20:38 < fenugrec> ah so that's what shoveling sounds like in snorwegia
2021-12-05T00:20:44 < fenugrec> sounds about the same as here
2021-12-05T00:24:53 < qyx> lol morning teambuilding
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2021-12-05T00:37:49  * catphish returns from winter holiday in log cabin :)
2021-12-05T00:38:06 < zyp> glad you're logged on again
2021-12-05T00:38:34 < catphish> are you though?
2021-12-05T00:39:17 < zyp> always looking forward to hear about your EV project :)
2021-12-05T00:39:48 < ventYl> it just started snowing here too
2021-12-05T00:39:55 < ventYl> we have like 2mm of snow
2021-12-05T00:40:54 < catphish> nice, i've only seen 5 minutes of snow here in south uk, nothing that settled :(
2021-12-05T00:41:17 < catphish> i love snow, we only get one day a year of it here if we're lucky
2021-12-05T00:43:28 < zyp>  well, duh, that's not enough to hate
2021-12-05T00:45:03 < catphish> indeed!
2021-12-05T00:45:43 < catphish> so today i wrote a new firmware for the open source GS450H inverter controller with support for the standard openinverter web interface: https://github.com/catphish/gs450h/tree/openinverter
2021-12-05T00:46:47 < catphish> on monday my 18 x 16S lithium battery modules will arrive, and i will test my tesla charger, and my rp2040 based balancer (though someone else has already confirmed that the balancer works nicely)
2021-12-05T00:48:58 < qyx> I wish I had your productivity
2021-12-05T00:49:07 < qyx> it wanished around my 30s
2021-12-05T00:50:01 < catphish> you should have seen me and my team before 2020 :)
2021-12-05T00:51:54 < catphish> this is me just doing a hobby while struggling not to waste half my day because of alcohol
2021-12-05T00:52:48 < catphish> i spent 15 years working at this speed with a partner who was even better than me, we made serious amounts of software
2021-12-05T00:53:20 < catphish> now i just do what i enjoy and don't worry too much if it's good or not
2021-12-05T00:56:06 < catphish> qyx: and since i'm now 34, i can only agree with you!
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2021-12-05T00:57:49 < qyx> heh
2021-12-05T01:01:56 < Steffanx> Lol lies qyx. You design PCBs like a madman 
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2021-12-05T01:04:36 < catphish> i got feedback on my first ever paid electronic design job yesterday: "I've not had to make any hacks to the PCB and it's doing what I want. So great work on the layout!"
2021-12-05T01:04:41 < catphish> so yay
2021-12-05T01:06:54 < qyx> Steffanx: in terms of income, the productivity dropped to about 1/4
2021-12-05T01:07:45 < qyx> doing more research jobs now and preparing designs for bigger projects
2021-12-05T01:08:03 < qyx> because of the shortage it is hard to do anything serious
2021-12-05T01:11:19 < catphish> the shortage is pretty damning in terms of planning a production product
2021-12-05T01:12:09 < catphish> i'm gonna build my EV while this blows over, and get myself fitter, and then think seriously about new business ideas
2021-12-05T01:13:45 < Steffanx> Wait a whole year?
2021-12-05T01:16:06 < Steffanx> A client of ours just decided to go hoarding and buy all available mcus of a specific family
2021-12-05T01:16:25 < catphish> that's the only sane approach if you have a serious project
2021-12-05T01:16:38 < Steffanx> All ~8k of the ones available 
2021-12-05T01:17:01 < qyx> what whole year
2021-12-05T01:17:09 < catphish> maybe a little rude, but if they plan to make 8k, seems sane
2021-12-05T01:17:19 < Steffanx> Before there might be some new stock.
2021-12-05T01:18:38 < qyx> I have some G4 reserved for a project
2021-12-05T01:19:01 < qyx> but as soon as the new year comes, I will free them for other things
2021-12-05T01:19:41 < qyx> I am waiting since september if they order or not
2021-12-05T01:20:17 < Steffanx> catphish: it's actually a 2nd option. The one currently used is already unavailable, but it was the perfect mcu. So they decided to buy all the ones available mcus that MIGHT replace the current one used. So they might not even use it when the current one is available again.
2021-12-05T01:21:03 < qyx> samc21?
2021-12-05T01:21:10 < Steffanx> We'll even do the redesign, but it might not even be used.
2021-12-05T01:22:40 < qyx> joking, nobody uses microchip
2021-12-05T01:23:46 < Steffanx> I still consider SAMx to be Atmel
2021-12-05T01:24:26 < qyx> super-atmel's-microcontroller
2021-12-05T01:27:48 < kakium69> but in all seriousness. open a product with microcontroller and it's pic or sam
2021-12-05T01:28:19 < kakium69> pic for simple things, sam for less simple things
2021-12-05T01:29:00 < qyx> I have never seen SAM in a product
2021-12-05T01:29:10 < kakium69> I have seen to say stm32 in wild like 1 times
2021-12-05T01:29:15 < qyx> the last thing i opened (solar MPPT) it was stm32f0
2021-12-05T01:30:00 < karlp> jlink v8s? were sam.
2021-12-05T01:30:07 < karlp> or v6s, or something, can't remember
2021-12-05T01:30:35 < karlp> PaulFertser: what do you get with new firmware? different button pressing orders I guess?
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2021-12-05T01:52:46 < zyp> I have the impression stm32 is what I most commonly see in the wild
2021-12-05T01:53:01 < zyp> but I might be somewhat biased to take more notice when something is stm32 based
2021-12-05T01:59:18 < englishman> a sort of confirmation bias. you don't take notice of the parts with reliable stock. like esp32
2021-12-05T02:08:14 < zyp> ah, I see esp32 here and there too
2021-12-05T02:08:45 < zyp> these days I figure if I buy a wifi-connected gadget, there's gonna be an esp in there
2021-12-05T02:09:09 < zyp> unless it's something highend enough to justify something more fancy
2021-12-05T02:11:40 < catphish> i never considered using esp32, always assumed it was a toy
2021-12-05T02:12:03 < catphish> but i guess it's also a capable mcu
2021-12-05T02:12:31 < zyp> the new esp32-c3 is actually interesting
2021-12-05T02:12:57 < zyp> grabbed one, but I haven't had time to play with it yet
2021-12-05T02:13:25 < catphish> wasn't esp originally sold as a modem peripheral, rather than a mcu in its own right
2021-12-05T02:13:51 < catphish> it always seemed odd to me that it was programmable, but its default setup was AT commands
2021-12-05T02:14:18 < catphish> but perhaps that fact has blinded me to the fact that it's a decent standalone MCU too
2021-12-05T02:14:23 < zyp> makes perfect sense to me
2021-12-05T02:15:11 < zyp> shipping it with AT firmware means it can be dropped right in as a peripheral
2021-12-05T02:15:57 < zyp> and if you're gonna run it standalone you're gonna load up your own firmware anyway so it doesn't really matter what it came with
2021-12-05T02:16:12 < catphish> yeah, that does make sense
2021-12-05T02:16:25 < catphish> and if it was just a peripheral, it wouldn't be programmable
2021-12-05T02:16:28 < zyp> blank flash or AT firmware makes no difference once you erase and reflash
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2021-12-05T02:18:43 < catphish> *nod*
2021-12-05T02:20:16 < catphish> on monday i have the scary prospect of connecting my modified tesla charger to both 240v mains, and 360v of batteries, this is quite terrifying :)
2021-12-05T02:20:39 < catphish> it'll probably take me a couple of days to sort out the right cables and connectors
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2021-12-05T13:20:18 < Steffanx> What you pay to have your photos developed/digitalized nowadays mawk?
2021-12-05T13:26:18 < mawk> Steffanx development is 6€
2021-12-05T13:26:20 < mawk> and digitization is 16€
2021-12-05T13:26:22 < mawk> so I'm trying to digitize myself
2021-12-05T13:26:52 < PaulFertser> Per 36-frames roll?
2021-12-05T13:26:57 < mawk> I'm trying to buy some crap on marktplaats and the guy absolutely wants to talk in dutch Steffanx 
2021-12-05T13:27:03 < mawk> yes PaulFertser, or 24 frames
2021-12-05T13:27:09 < mawk> it's the same price for both
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2021-12-05T13:33:17 < mawk> I bought a cheap scanner but the quality is horrible
2021-12-05T13:33:23 < mawk> so I'm sending it back now
2021-12-05T13:37:40 < Steffanx> Heh, I can understand. English scammers 😅
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2021-12-05T13:41:16 < Steffanx> https://www.kruidvat.nl/fotoservice/analoog/analoog-prijzen.html#ajax_content_container_D5461172B7FD4AB8BE7D2FB06BFB4B58 is cheaper than that it seems?
2021-12-05T13:53:38 < Steffanx> There must be a kruidvat there mawk
2021-12-05T13:53:54 < Steffanx> It only takes 2 weeks -_-
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2021-12-05T14:37:19 < mawk> lol
2021-12-05T14:37:28 < mawk> my local lab takes 2 hours Steffanx 
2021-12-05T14:37:34 < mawk> when it's not too busy
2021-12-05T14:38:18 < Steffanx> Explains why it's more expensive. Such fast service.
2021-12-05T14:38:29 < Steffanx> What lab is this mr mawk?
2021-12-05T14:39:31 < mawk> it's same price everywhere more or less
2021-12-05T14:39:55 < mawk> it's just kruidvat has to ship it to a fujifilm lab or something
2021-12-05T14:40:02 < mawk> and my lab does it locally
2021-12-05T14:40:19 < mawk> a no-name photography lab in delft Steffanx 
2021-12-05T14:40:26 < mawk> fotobister I think
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2021-12-05T14:47:14 < Steffanx> Google knows it so it's fine
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2021-12-05T18:15:44 < catphish> yay tela charger powers up and detects AC voltage correctly, just needs some batteries and liquid cooling now!
2021-12-05T18:27:40 < catphish> totally standard official Tesla EVSE ;) https://i.imgur.com/rdmBGO2.jpg
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2021-12-05T18:39:45 < karlp> gross multi terminal screws. hate those
2021-12-05T18:39:58 < karlp> always sparking and arcing and grinding around with shitty contacts...
2021-12-05T18:40:22 < karlp> at least with stranded it's normally sort of worky, but seeing those things with solid house wires always irritates me
2021-12-05T18:40:50 < qyx> what is a multiterminal screw
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2021-12-05T18:41:04 < karlp> having multiple terminals stuck into the same bit like that
2021-12-05T18:41:16 < karlp> not a good choce of words, my english is decaying
2021-12-05T18:41:30 < karlp> stuffing multiple wire ends into the same screw terminal
2021-12-05T18:41:39 < qyx> oh
2021-12-05T18:42:06 < qyx> yeah it is only allowed with some terminals and even then only with conductors of the same type and cross ection
2021-12-05T18:43:03 < karlp> bought my own ferrule crimper recently, instead of always sneaking one from work.
2021-12-05T18:43:36 < qyx> brand, link?
2021-12-05T18:44:17 < fenugrec> ferrules are nice but do nothig for solid wire
2021-12-05T18:44:20 < karlp> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10000418339973.html
2021-12-05T18:44:27 < karlp> no, not for solid, 
2021-12-05T18:44:36 < karlp> but I have lots of soft stuff too for other things
2021-12-05T18:44:42 < catphish> karlp: they were super popular here in UK until wago replaced them
2021-12-05T18:44:54 < fenugrec> I have a nice  rennsteig and a weidmuller PZ6, not sure which one I prefer
2021-12-05T18:44:58 < karlp> yeah, I have a big set of "wago" in 3/4/5 too.
2021-12-05T18:45:16 < catphish> i could have used a 4-terminal wago, but i don't have one, so here we are :)
2021-12-05T18:45:24 < karlp> for solid wire, wago does some nice push in stuff that's still better than shoving it all under a single screw and praying
2021-12-05T18:45:40 < catphish> yeah, i use push-in wago for all my home wiring now
2021-12-05T18:46:00 < karlp> but not for the big risky fire hazard experiments :)
2021-12-05T18:46:28 < catphish> i still use those screw blocks for prototyping with stranded wire though, mostly because i dont have any wago connectors to hand today :)
2021-12-05T18:47:05 < fenugrec> marettes for the real sketchy stuff
2021-12-05T18:47:23 < karlp> get some of them too? https://www.aliexpress.com/item/33041093802.html
2021-12-05T18:47:26 < karlp> what are marettes?
2021-12-05T18:48:04 < catphish> nice ali link, i nearly bought a set like that today, but decided there was really no point when i had screw terminals in my office already
2021-12-05T18:48:50 < karlp> yeah, I got a bunch to just have, was sick of fucking around with shitty combinations of shit
2021-12-05T18:48:59 < karlp> yeah, marettes look gross
2021-12-05T18:49:22 < qyx> oh fuk marette
2021-12-05T18:49:25 < qyx> they were used here in the past
2021-12-05T18:49:30 < fenugrec> heheh
2021-12-05T18:49:34 < qyx> replacing all at parent's house
2021-12-05T18:49:40 < catphish> oh those marettes things look awful
2021-12-05T18:49:49 < catphish> i've seen them in old residential installs
2021-12-05T18:50:28 < fenugrec> they're everywhere here. Actually not bad on solid wire
2021-12-05T18:51:12 < karlp> on copper, where it can cut in I guess?
2021-12-05T18:51:22 < karlp> where's here again? are you one of the french canadians?
2021-12-05T18:51:25 < fenugrec> yea it cuts threads and gets pretty tight
2021-12-05T18:51:33 < catphish> well my screw terminal block is working fine at 0A :) will need to wait until i have my batteries and a cooling loop before i can put any serious current through it
2021-12-05T18:51:55 < fenugrec> (yes, the FR-CA part of canadia)
2021-12-05T18:52:39 < fenugrec> mfffg 7 days and DK order hasn't even shipped yet... nothing backordered, what gives
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2021-12-05T21:35:19 < fenugrec> quick : where, in stm32cubeide, did they hide the equivalent of a "call stack " ? i.e. equivalent of a "bt full"
2021-12-05T21:37:49 < fenugrec> lol nm, it was hidden in plain sight
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2021-12-05T22:02:00 < PaulFertser> karlp: yes, different firmware has different set of modes, different UI etc. http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~toykeeper/flashlight-firmware/trunk/view/head:/ToyKeeper/bistro/biscotti/biscotti.c . Some people also mod the drivers to use a tact button instead of power switch or to add thermal management or to have facility for longer presses of the power switch (by measuring how a cap loses its
2021-12-05T22:02:07 < PaulFertser> voltage).
2021-12-05T22:14:53 < mawk> look PaulFertser this is what I scanned with my puny little scanner: https://i.imgur.com/oz3MiOt.jpeg
2021-12-05T22:15:03 < mawk> and the same negative but scanned by a pro lab: https://i.imgur.com/3AdILwr.jpeg
2021-12-05T22:15:11 < mawk> my scan has more pixelzzzz but the image looks awful
2021-12-05T22:15:24 < mawk> I have 14MP, the lab 5MP, but the lab looks way better 
2021-12-05T22:15:54 < mawk> well first my scan wasn't totally in focus, it was a bit bent inside the scanner as the holder they gave isn't good at keeping the film flat
2021-12-05T22:15:57 < PaulFertser> The difference in the upper left corner is the most surprising
2021-12-05T22:16:09 < mawk> yes well the negative itself is orange
2021-12-05T22:16:36 < mawk> although orange should be blue now that I think about it, once you invert the colors
2021-12-05T22:16:44 < mawk> anyway yeah on almost every scan there is this orange bleed on the left side
2021-12-05T22:17:37 < mawk> and everything is too blue, the colors are not properly compensated or what
2021-12-05T22:18:08 < mawk> the only good thing is that it got details the lab didn't get, in the upper left corner
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2021-12-05T22:35:10 < Steffanx> Mawk: I wonder what the cause of the lighter line around the trees is in the 2nd photo. Especially visible on the tree-sea edge
2021-12-05T22:35:27 < Steffanx> Jpeg compression? Sharpening?
2021-12-05T22:36:10 < mawk> yeah artifact probably
2021-12-05T22:36:20 < mawk> when I uploaded to imgur I suppose
2021-12-05T22:36:28 < mawk> the actual photo is more or less high quality
2021-12-05T22:36:36 < mawk> well it's just 5MP but there's no compression artifact or bs like that
2021-12-05T22:36:51 < mawk> I can't open my laptop Steffanx 
2021-12-05T22:36:53 < mawk> and replace the bad ram
2021-12-05T22:36:55 < mawk> I'm doooooomed
2021-12-05T22:36:59 < mawk> I broke the screws
2021-12-05T22:37:16 < Xogium> erk… erm. One of the SoM of my seeed studio odyssey board just decided to fsck up its eMMC… Anyone knows how the hell I can get the SoM away ? Its one of these SoM that use pins to fit into the appropriate socket
2021-12-05T22:37:38 < mawk> so it's socketed Xogium 
2021-12-05T22:37:40 < mawk> not soldered
2021-12-05T22:37:43 < Xogium> yes
2021-12-05T22:38:03 < mawk> that depends, there could be screws, or a lever, or just nothing
2021-12-05T22:38:13 < Xogium> I just am not sure what to use to grab the SoM nad lift it away…
2021-12-05T22:38:30 < mawk> you can try without too much force
2021-12-05T22:38:38 < mawk> just gently yank it away with all your force
2021-12-05T22:38:48 < Xogium> hm
2021-12-05T22:38:59 < Xogium> the wiki says very confusing things
2021-12-05T22:39:12 < mawk> attach a string around the SoM, tie the other end around an anvil and throw the anvil out of your window
2021-12-05T22:39:21 < mawk> what does it say?
2021-12-05T22:39:59 < Xogium> slowly tilt the core board up and then remove, never remove by hand… Whaaat
2021-12-05T22:40:45 < Xogium> https://wiki.seeedstudio.com/ODYSSEY-STM32MP157C/
2021-12-05T22:40:50 < Xogium> the hardware overview section
2021-12-05T22:41:00 < Xogium> ... maybe it has picture to explain what the hell they meant
2021-12-05T22:41:13 < mawk> let me see
2021-12-05T22:42:15 < mawk> I don't get it either
2021-12-05T22:42:21 < mawk> can you tilt it on one side?
2021-12-05T22:42:25 < mawk> lift it I mean
2021-12-05T22:42:29 < Xogium> gotta love chenglish
2021-12-05T22:42:31 < mawk> the daughter board
2021-12-05T22:42:39 < mawk> maybe if you lift it it pops rightout
2021-12-05T22:43:24 < Xogium> hmm it appears to be stuck fast
2021-12-05T22:43:59 < mawk> so is there a side you can lift?
2021-12-05T22:44:52 < Xogium> not that I can see… but I don't feel any screws either
2021-12-05T22:44:58 < Xogium> I think th socket is a real tight fit
2021-12-05T22:45:16 < mawk> even if you force a bit?
2021-12-05T22:45:21 < mawk> ah
2021-12-05T22:45:25 < mawk> I see 3 screw holes on the pics
2021-12-05T22:45:39 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-05T22:46:03 < Xogium> the carrier board has screws holes a la raspberry pi, maybe that's them ?
2021-12-05T22:46:10 < mawk> with the power jack oriented on the right, then the screw holes on the daughter boards are: middle of the left side, top right corner and bottom right corner
2021-12-05T22:46:18 < mawk> yeah
2021-12-05T22:46:27 < mawk> well, I don't know what you mean by à la raspberry pi
2021-12-05T22:46:33 < mawk> but I see 3 screw holes like I just described
2021-12-05T22:47:05 < Xogium> I mean that its litterally so compatible with rpi that you can use an acrylic case made from only top and bottom plates, and make it fit in there
2021-12-05T22:47:49 < mawk> I don't see any matching screw holes under the carrier board, in the 3D rendering
2021-12-05T22:47:57 < mawk> so the screws might be on top of the daughter board
2021-12-05T22:48:00 < mawk> not on the carrier board
2021-12-05T22:48:03 < mawk> but maybe their 3D rendering is shit
2021-12-05T22:48:56 < Xogium> yeah I don't see screw holes on the SoM only on carrier…
2021-12-05T22:49:12 < mawk> really? I see them in the pictures
2021-12-05T22:49:16 < Xogium> they are only there so you can screw it down in the acrylic case of say, rpi4
2021-12-05T22:49:26 < mawk> but they didn't screw them
2021-12-05T22:49:29 < mawk> yeah
2021-12-05T22:49:49 < Xogium> I just want to remove the tiny module with 4 chips on top of it :D
2021-12-05T22:50:38 < mawk> I'd say lift the bottom right corner of the tiny module
2021-12-05T22:50:45 < mawk> with ~some amount of force
2021-12-05T22:50:50 < mawk> and see what happens
2021-12-05T22:50:55 < mawk> it's not pins under, you won't bend them
2021-12-05T22:50:59 < Xogium> bottom right being ?
2021-12-05T22:51:02 < mawk> it's board to board connectors
2021-12-05T22:51:11 < mawk> well you orient it with the power jack of the carrier board on the right
2021-12-05T22:51:19 < Xogium> like… what would be the closest thing to it on the carrier ?
2021-12-05T22:51:19 < mawk> and then you lift the bottom right corner of the tiny module
2021-12-05T22:51:33 < Xogium> right
2021-12-05T22:51:46 < mawk> what would be the closest thing ressembling the connector you mean?
2021-12-05T22:51:53 < mawk> I don't see any
2021-12-05T22:52:01 < Xogium> well hmm
2021-12-05T22:52:35 < Xogium> on the carrier board, the 3 pins for uart should be to my right ?
2021-12-05T22:52:54 < mawk> yes
2021-12-05T22:52:56 < mawk> hmm
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2021-12-05T22:53:00 < mawk> actually
2021-12-05T22:53:04 < mawk> I'd say just lift the tiny module vertically
2021-12-05T22:53:08 < mawk> holding it by its 4 corners
2021-12-05T22:53:19 < mawk> I don't see why you couldn't do that directly, and it has the least chance of damaging something
2021-12-05T22:53:27 < Xogium> ooh this is going to be a pain in thea** hehe
2021-12-05T22:53:34 < Xogium> let me try and do that
2021-12-05T22:53:37 < mawk> under it there are only regular board-to-board connectors; a bit like screen connectors on a laptop
2021-12-05T22:54:21 < kakium69> BrainDamage: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xLJ8EJkTA2hONSPLjZB6pUpAtYwvEKPz/view?usp=sharing
2021-12-05T22:54:23 < Xogium> this is all so I can actually give it another module
2021-12-05T22:57:18 < PaulFertser> mawk: broke the screws? Stripped the head by using a wrong screwdriver?
2021-12-05T22:57:50 < Xogium> gah its so tightly fitting I can't even put a finger or fingernail between
2021-12-05T23:00:20 < PaulFertser> Xogium: are you sure you do not have those 3 screws holding the board in place that mawk was talking about?
2021-12-05T23:02:02 < PaulFertser> Xogium: one is in the corner closest to the power barrel connector; another is in the corner closest to USB; the third forms the triangle with those two, it's in the middle of the other side of the SoM.
2021-12-05T23:02:11 < Xogium> PaulFertser: hm well the only screw I have in place, and there's 4 of them, are use to hold the carrier board down on the bottom acrylic plate
2021-12-05T23:03:07 < PaulFertser> Xogium: no, I do not mean those. Probably that's not a screw there but then you should be able to feel holes at the places I'm describing.
2021-12-05T23:03:29 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-05T23:03:37 < Xogium> don't really feel any… wait a sec
2021-12-05T23:03:47 < Xogium> mayube an actual pic would help lol
2021-12-05T23:03:50 < Xogium> *maybe
2021-12-05T23:04:11 < PaulFertser> Xogium: btw, what makes you think the eMMC is somehow broken and you need to replace the SoM?
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2021-12-05T23:06:50 < Xogium> shit ton of io errors
2021-12-05T23:08:09 < PaulFertser> I agree that it looks like it should be lifted off vertically provided nothing is holding it in those 3 holes.
2021-12-05T23:08:46 < Xogium> and that is when the OS wants to boot because 9 times out of 10 it will say can't find partition table, rest of the time it will lockup in the midle of booting up, or do kernel panic
2021-12-05T23:11:30 < PaulFertser> Xogium: so can you send an actual pic?
2021-12-05T23:12:38 < mawk> yes PaulFertser stripped the heads
2021-12-05T23:13:17 < mawk> so I bought a medieval torture device to sort this situation
2021-12-05T23:13:25 < mawk> a left-handed drill bit
2021-12-05T23:13:56 < mawk> then I drill into the screw and unscrew it at the same time
2021-12-05T23:14:09 < mawk> the head is stripped, and it's glued on by (blue) loctite
2021-12-05T23:14:23 < mawk> even by heating up the screwdriver it doesn't move
2021-12-05T23:14:39 < Xogium> PaulFertser: will try
2021-12-05T23:16:39 < Xogium> damn buggy autofocus
2021-12-05T23:16:57 < mawk> praised be the autofocus
2021-12-05T23:21:21 < Xogium> I mean… nah maybe not autofocus being a problem… I keep having trouble with framing actually
2021-12-05T23:21:29 < Xogium> wonder if there are cameras that can help with that
2021-12-05T23:21:40 < mawk> fisheye lenses
2021-12-05T23:21:50 < mawk> or maybe even 3D cameras
2021-12-05T23:22:07 < Xogium> I often take pics with things partly out of frame or entirely
2021-12-05T23:22:31 < Xogium> when I take damn good pictures its just dumb luck
2021-12-05T23:22:46 < mawk> and for the focus, you could have a camera with a small aperture and lots and lots of lights around
2021-12-05T23:22:49 < mawk> then everything is in focus
2021-12-05T23:22:53 < Xogium> I uh think I've got it
2021-12-05T23:23:17 < mawk> you need a camera app that tells you when you have your hand in the shot for instance
2021-12-05T23:23:22 < mawk> your hand in the middle of the frame
2021-12-05T23:23:33 < mawk> and then you can take the picture
2021-12-05T23:23:42 < Xogium> yeah… The google app can do it but only with faces
2021-12-05T23:23:56 < mawk> o
2021-12-05T23:24:10 < Xogium> when you use the frontal camera
2021-12-05T23:24:23 < Xogium> https://cloud.xogium.me/s/bQMBKBxWSQiYZoG
2021-12-05T23:24:59 < mawk> yeah no screws
2021-12-05T23:25:13 < mawk> just lift it up
2021-12-05T23:25:16 < mawk> vertically
2021-12-05T23:25:37 < Steffanx> Shouldnt be that hard to make something where you can place 4 markers and have the app beep when you have them all in the view perfectly. And maybe make it beep differently for the markers you have in the view or something.
2021-12-05T23:25:41 < Xogium> I need something to squeeze between the boards though hehe my fingers and nails are too thick for that
2021-12-05T23:26:02 < Steffanx> At least you wear pants Xogium :P
2021-12-05T23:26:06 < PaulFertser> Xogium: there's like 5 mm between the boards
2021-12-05T23:26:12 < mawk> high definition camera + fisheye lense would be foolproof
2021-12-05T23:26:23 < Xogium> of course I wear pants ! Lol
2021-12-05T23:26:39 < Xogium> its cold without pants hah
2021-12-05T23:26:51 < mawk> if you can take proper selfies you can show us your face then Xogium 
2021-12-05T23:26:53 < PaulFertser> Xogium: you should not be trying to squeeze anything between them.
2021-12-05T23:27:11 < Xogium> but… then how do I get a good grip enough to lift it ?
2021-12-05T23:27:28 < Xogium> I mean the wiki says never remove by hand… Could be bad chenglish though
2021-12-05T23:28:30 < Xogium> mawk: yep, but then I'd not get yours :(
2021-12-05T23:28:32 < PaulFertser> Xogium: you grab the corners on opposing sides of the board between the thumb and the index finger
2021-12-05T23:29:01 < mawk> you can read my face in braille Xogium 
2021-12-05T23:29:40 < Xogium> PaulFertser: I can't even get my index finger to go under the SoM
2021-12-05T23:30:08 < PaulFertser> Xogium: but you need to grab the side, not under
2021-12-05T23:30:43 < Xogium> er… so hold onto the edges ?
2021-12-05T23:31:25 < PaulFertser> I guess
2021-12-05T23:34:49 < Xogium> nop really can't lift it
2021-12-05T23:35:29 < Xogium> the hell did they change the design and solder it or what :p
2021-12-05T23:41:17 < Xogium> I guess I'll have to temporarily use micro sd…
2021-12-05T23:41:31 < Xogium> at least unttil I can get this thing off
2021-12-05T23:41:35 < Xogium> *until
2021-12-05T23:45:35 < Xogium> ideally for pictures, I guess I'd want something that tells you if its in the frame correctly, and more importantly what's in the frame, like basic object identification
2021-12-05T23:51:08 < Xogium> a very dumb thing seeed did with this board is, stuff usb DFU on one of the usb a ports
2021-12-05T23:51:53 < Xogium> I killed the usb of another board trying to use type a to type a for DFU, and didn't notice vbus was on
2021-12-05T23:53:57 < Xogium> can't help but think I was lucky the only thing I blew up was usb…
--- Day changed Mon Dec 06 2021
2021-12-06T00:00:33 < karlp> that sounds like a rockchip board..
2021-12-06T00:00:42 < karlp> and yeah, fuck that insanity
2021-12-06T00:05:20 < Xogium> nop not rockchip
2021-12-06T00:06:09 < karlp> really? it's a standard rockhip ref design to use this a-a for the bootloade
2021-12-06T00:06:26 < Xogium> but I sure learned my lesson… granted I should have thought about vbus sooner but, heh
2021-12-06T00:06:57 < Xogium> nop this is stm32mp157c odyssey from seeed studio
2021-12-06T00:08:26 < karlp> ok, wow, that's fucking dumb of seeed
2021-12-06T00:08:33 < Xogium> definitely
2021-12-06T00:08:46 < Xogium> especially when they got a nice usb c port on board
2021-12-06T00:09:27 < Xogium> that's what st actually do with their own dk for the SoC, they put the DFU on the usb c port
2021-12-06T00:11:43 < Xogium> also their way of enabling vbus on tye usb ports is less than stellar
2021-12-06T00:12:06 < Xogium> they simply set some gpio to high or low, don't remember which, in the bootloader, and hope that linux won't stomp all over them
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2021-12-06T00:19:39 < PaulFertser> Is it odd when an EE or an elecronics hobbyist says he or she never heard about Louis Rossmann ?
2021-12-06T00:20:07 < Steffanx> If that EE or hobbyist doesn't youtube, sure.
2021-12-06T00:20:57 < PaulFertser> Doesn't <what?> youtube?
2021-12-06T00:21:29 < Xogium> I never heard of… whoever this is
2021-12-06T00:21:32 < Xogium> :D
2021-12-06T00:21:33 < Steffanx> To youtube. You youtube, he youtubes. :p
2021-12-06T00:21:39 < Xogium> hope that answer you question
2021-12-06T00:21:43 < Xogium> :p
2021-12-06T00:22:01 < Steffanx> But do you "watch" youtube often Xogium?
2021-12-06T00:22:23 < PaulFertser> Steffanx: even I watch youtube video occassionally. I can't imagine even some old fart EE never watching youtube.
2021-12-06T00:23:22 < Xogium> not really no… Some random vids from ltt here and there but that's mostly it
2021-12-06T00:30:59 < Steffanx> PaulFertser: do you remember where you learned about the guy. I'm for 90% sure it was in ##stm32
2021-12-06T00:31:02 < Steffanx> For me
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2021-12-06T00:40:48 < PaulFertser> Steffanx: I'm not sure, I just remember it was some ~hour long video with him fixing phones and telling jokes to some other guy not visible on camera. Probably it was a youtube recommendation after watching some other repair video but I'm not sure.
2021-12-06T00:48:07 < qyx> who is rossmann
2021-12-06T00:49:53 < Steffanx> Loooouuuiss
2021-12-06T00:49:56 < Steffanx> The apple guy
2021-12-06T00:50:14 < Steffanx> You know him
2021-12-06T00:50:42 < Steffanx> Dongs used to complain about him a lot
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2021-12-06T01:25:44 < rajkosto> can you get the vendor tool the chinese use to fake microsd capacities somewhere ? to restore them to their actual capacity so they can actually be used safely as whatever theyve got is good enough for small amounts stm32 needs
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2021-12-06T02:11:23 < fenugrec> rajkosto, look at http://oss.digirati.com.br/f3/
2021-12-06T02:14:36 < rajkosto> exactly what i wanted thanks
2021-12-06T02:17:23 < rajkosto> wait, no, all it does is repartition it
2021-12-06T02:17:48 < rajkosto> i wanted it to send a vendor command to internally reformat it so its maximum is correct
2021-12-06T02:37:30 < rajkosto> especially since the formatting it does doesnt even work properly in windows
2021-12-06T02:37:43 < rajkosto> ah nvm needs mkfs
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2021-12-06T18:07:34 < mawk> what does "doe optin!!!!!" mean Steffanx 
2021-12-06T18:07:44 < mawk> the pharmacist wrote that on my pill box
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2021-12-06T19:03:15 < Steffanx> Do optin, mawk 
2021-12-06T19:03:46 < Steffanx> No clue what optin!!!! means
2021-12-06T19:08:45 < jpa-> it must be important
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2021-12-06T19:12:22 < Steffanx> Show the handwriting mawk
2021-12-06T19:13:22 < mawk> I think it's optin like opt-in in english ste
2021-12-06T19:13:25 < mawk> Steffanx 
2021-12-06T19:13:36 < mawk> like the data collection bs so pharmacy get all your life record
2021-12-06T19:14:44 < Steffanx> Not sure "doe optin" makes sense though
2021-12-06T19:15:52 < kakium69> subwoofer test songs plz
2021-12-06T19:17:40 < kakium69> sub 50hz
2021-12-06T19:18:56 < kakium69> I just realized when someone at #other said that everything is 50hz
2021-12-06T19:20:00 < kakium69> majorty of songs with boom boom bass have 50hz 52hz bass
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2021-12-06T19:29:32 < Steffanx> https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/ ye
2021-12-06T19:29:34 < Steffanx> Yw
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2021-12-06T19:38:56 < fenugrec> cool, my sub goes down to ~ 28Hz
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2021-12-06T21:08:05 < catphish> so i have a dilema, i have a tesla charger, it cost me £200, it has 3 x 3.3kW charging modules, and one of them is broken, so it can only deliver 6.6kW, which is plenty for me, it weighs 16kg
2021-12-06T21:08:23 < catphish> i also need a 400V -> 12V DC-DC converter
2021-12-06T21:10:18 < catphish> i can't decide whether to use the tesla charger, try to remove the failed module to save weight, and buy a DC-DC converter for another £300, or... buy a brand new chinese 6.6kW charger with an integrated DC-DC converter for £1,600, which only weighs 8kg all-in
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2021-12-06T21:26:24 < PaulFertser> Will the chinese charger be as safe and stable?
2021-12-06T21:33:21 < fenugrec> are kg that important
2021-12-06T21:47:53 < catphish> yes, i have plenty of confidence in the chinese charger, it's the OEM for at least one major western DIY EV brand
2021-12-06T21:48:33 < catphish> kg and space are important because my car is very small and light to begin with, but this has to be balanced with cost, and 10kg isn't much in car terms
2021-12-06T21:49:54 < catphish> this is what i have: https://stealthev.com/product/tesla-10-kw-charger/
2021-12-06T21:50:04 < catphish> this is the chinese charger https://stealthev.com/product/6-6kw-liquid-cooled-charger1-5kw-dc-dc-converter/
2021-12-06T21:50:19 < fenugrec> how did you get a 10kw charger for 200
2021-12-06T21:51:07 < fenugrec> or did you typo for 2000
2021-12-06T21:54:12 < catphish> no, it was £200, because of the fault
2021-12-06T21:55:24 < catphish> in a tesla it would simply refuse to operate at all, so it was almost worthless, but the open source firmware can selectively use only the 2 working modules
2021-12-06T21:55:30 < fenugrec> aah
2021-12-06T21:55:46 < fenugrec> that's a very, very good $/kw
2021-12-06T21:56:34 < catphish> so i'm thinking best case scenario, i can take the 2 working 3.3kW modules and build a new 6.6kW charger, no point carrying around the weight of the broken one
2021-12-06T21:56:35 < fenugrec> I doubt removing the faulty part(s) inside will save much weight though. Probably very integrated design in there
2021-12-06T21:56:48 < catphish> they're essentially 3 independent chargers, with a single control board
2021-12-06T21:57:02 < Steffanx> buy another broken Tesla charger :)
2021-12-06T21:57:05 < fenugrec> all with their own heatsink ?
2021-12-06T21:57:12 < fenugrec>  / heat exchanger
2021-12-06T21:57:44 < catphish> fenugrec: that's the part i'm not sure about, there's a single water cooling system, it might be one large heatsink
2021-12-06T22:04:27 < catphish> i'll pull out the bad module and see what i find
2021-12-06T22:06:27 < catphish> this is the charger, the 3 modules make up the huge majority of the inside of the device, but i don't know how the heat management works https://www.diyelectriccar.com/attachments/2017-08-24-16-00-20-jpg.80881/ https://i.imgur.com/VgQKGv7.jpg
2021-12-06T22:06:55 < fenugrec> such potting
2021-12-06T22:06:59 < fenugrec> very goop
2021-12-06T22:11:22 < qyx> have I mentioned I don't trust those wires?
2021-12-06T22:11:30 < catphish> qyx: they definitely work :)
2021-12-06T22:12:07 < catphish> qyx: more seriously, they only need to carry 15A, that's < 1mm^2
2021-12-06T22:14:12 < catphish> actually i'm talking out of my arse, 15A requires 1.5mm^2, but i'm guessing those exceed that
2021-12-06T22:14:21 < catphish> that's still pretty small
2021-12-06T22:17:55 < qyx> 15 A requires 2.5 mm2 for 60°C
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2021-12-06T22:21:54 < qyx> iirc
2021-12-06T22:27:52 < qyx> hm iec really allows 15 A for a 1.5 mm2
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2021-12-06T22:56:36 < kakium69> fenugrec: or your ears go down to ~28hz
2021-12-06T22:59:06 < kakium69> bbl>
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2021-12-06T23:12:42 < Steffanx> Lol bye kakium69 
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2021-12-06T23:41:37 < Steffanx> Welcome kakium69 
2021-12-06T23:41:51 < kakium69> welcome Steffanx
2021-12-06T23:43:03 < kakium69> my speakers failed:
2021-12-06T23:43:11 < kakium69> Dire Straits - Iron Hand
2021-12-06T23:43:23 < kakium69> Everest OST - Summit
2021-12-06T23:45:19 < kakium69> But played Zimmer, Richter etc. movie soundtracks just fine
2021-12-06T23:52:08 < kakium69> maybe around 30hz some resonance caused unsatisfying rumbling sound
2021-12-06T23:54:11 < kakium69> Steffanx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjzZ_0KSYVg musics?
--- Day changed Tue Dec 07 2021
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2021-12-07T01:26:31 < Steffanx> That's no kakium69  musics
2021-12-07T01:27:38 < kakium69> it sounds good from my speakers idk.
2021-12-07T01:28:20 < Steffanx> Soon you'll tell me you even listen  to things like 
2021-12-07T01:28:22 < Steffanx> https://youtu.be/9H4o9RdqMpY
2021-12-07T01:40:12 < kakium69> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oHfnggzIaA try this
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2021-12-07T09:18:30 < jadew> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/804210713982926894/917662152897216552/image0.jpg
2021-12-07T09:20:33 < jpa-> jadew: are you a bitcoin-short-millionaire yet?
2021-12-07T09:21:01 < jadew> jpa-, by the time that shit came back, my position was wrecked, only made $80
2021-12-07T09:22:50 < jpa-> i wonder if bitcoin is going to have its final crash in 2022 or not - i still have about 1000 EUR worth of bitcoin-derivative fund that has some 10k% gain - in finland one can sell up to 1000 EUR worth of stocks per year without capital gain taxes
2021-12-07T09:23:36 < jadew> that's a very small threshold
2021-12-07T09:23:55 < jpa-> yeah, after that it gets to 30% tax of the gains
2021-12-07T09:24:03 < jadew> you have a price target for when you want to exit?
2021-12-07T09:24:15 < jadew> or are you waiting until it crashes and exit afterwards? :)
2021-12-07T09:24:39 < jpa-> yeah, i exceeded target years ago and sold more than what i paid to get in, just left some "just in case"
2021-12-07T09:24:49 < jpa-> and for some stupid reason bitcoin has just kept climbing
2021-12-07T09:24:52 < jadew> I see
2021-12-07T09:24:58 < jadew> yeah, it's silly
2021-12-07T09:25:16 < jadew> the problem with this type of situations is that you don't know when is a good time to enter or to exit
2021-12-07T09:26:01 < jadew> I seem to have more luck just riding the trend than by taking action based on anything logical
2021-12-07T09:26:56 < jpa-> looks like i have 4 stocks of bitcoin XBT and 3 stocks of ethereum XBT; i guess i'll sell some of both and again leave some so that i don't feel bad when it keeps climbing ;)
2021-12-07T09:27:58 < jpa-> in recent years lattice has had a similar rate of price increase as bitcoin, and because i put 1keur into it initially, the +1000% has grown my lattice-position uncomfortably large
2021-12-07T09:28:15 < jadew> neat
2021-12-07T09:28:52 < jadew> I only started "investing" this year, so not many good deals out there
2021-12-07T09:28:58 < jadew> best I can do is play the market
2021-12-07T09:29:18 < jpa-> yeah, or hold for long term and hope this is the beginning and not the end of a boom
2021-12-07T09:29:55 < jpa-> the expected inflation of currencies is really pushing up stock prices
2021-12-07T09:30:08 < jadew> it does, but we haven't seen that much inflation in reality
2021-12-07T09:30:30 < jpa-> yeah - who knows what will happen if the predictions don't become reality
2021-12-07T09:35:25 < jadew> I have an idea of what will happen, which is why I'm not sure if I should hold any long term positions
2021-12-07T09:36:22 < jpa-> yeah, i'm not buying more stocks now either, but because of taxes it doesn't make sense to sell them either
2021-12-07T09:36:48 < jadew> you could rotate into dividend stocks maybe?
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2021-12-07T09:37:25 < jadew> ideally that's what you should strive for, good dividends
2021-12-07T09:37:33 < jpa-> i have some
2021-12-07T09:37:51 < jpa-> not sure if it makes much difference
2021-12-07T09:37:57 < jadew> https://abcnews.go.com/Health/stressed-men-prefer-heavier-women-study/story?id=16950542
2021-12-07T09:38:08 < jadew> jpa-, well the income would be lower than straight up selling
2021-12-07T09:38:13 < jpa-> they're typically pretty well established companies so good for diversification
2021-12-07T09:38:40 < jpa-> yeah, i don't need the income from stocks currently anyway
2021-12-07T09:42:53 < jadew> do you have any chip companies?
2021-12-07T09:43:05 < jadew> (other than lattice)
2021-12-07T09:43:21 < jadew> I guess I was thinking more towards analog stuff
2021-12-07T09:44:58 < jpa-> microchip and silabs
2021-12-07T09:47:10 < jadew> untouchable at this point
2021-12-07T09:47:25 < jadew> (microchip that is - I don't have access to silabs)
2021-12-07T09:48:16 < jpa-> and modulight, if you count laser chips
2021-12-07T10:36:36 < jadew> apparently this is the first video on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNQXAC9IVRw
2021-12-07T10:38:47 < jadew> lmfao, some youtube jokes are great
2021-12-07T10:39:18 < jadew> I got recommended a video of the start of the '89 Romanian revolution
2021-12-07T10:39:33 < jadew> the first comment reads: "no cell phones in sight, just people living the moment"
2021-12-07T10:40:13 < jadew> in case you're curious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xntDto5TX10
2021-12-07T10:46:25 < jadew> ah, doesn't seem like that's the one
2021-12-07T10:47:46 < jadew> I wonder if his execution is on youtube
2021-12-07T10:48:20 < benishor> weird fetishes you have, jadew
2021-12-07T10:48:32 < benishor> it was enough seeing them murdered on tv
2021-12-07T10:49:27 < benishor> back then I was a 9yo little boy dressed up in my judo kimono, imagining I'm a hero who catches the ceausescus and deliver them to justice
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2021-12-07T10:49:54 < benishor> the murder scene was quite sad
2021-12-07T10:50:19 < benishor> nothing romantic about people being killed the way they were in those times
2021-12-07T10:50:21 < jadew> I was only 4 and I still remember parts of what happened
2021-12-07T10:50:53 < jadew> I think they wanted to kill them fast so there's no chance that they get released and look for retribution
2021-12-07T10:51:17 < jadew> *there was
2021-12-07T10:51:37 < jadew> hmm... *so there wouldn't be a chance
2021-12-07T10:51:59 < benishor> of course, but it was brutal nontheless
2021-12-07T10:52:12 < jadew> communism was brutal
2021-12-07T10:52:13 < benishor> everything rushed and dirty
2021-12-07T10:52:28 < benishor> noone denies that
2021-12-07T10:53:20 < benishor> alas that is the fate of dictators, they are bound to getting rid of in cruel ways because that appears to be the only solution
2021-12-07T10:54:12 < jadew> that was the only solution
2021-12-07T10:54:29 < jadew> anything else would have been too much of a risk for everyone involved
2021-12-07T10:58:26 < jadew> benishor, how was christmas that year?
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2021-12-07T11:27:18 < jadew> rocket launch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTWHDMTSrGs
2021-12-07T11:28:42 < jadew> in half an hour
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2021-12-07T13:35:45 < tct> hmpf... not getting anything out of the I2C peripheral using ST HAL
2021-12-07T13:35:51 < tct> HAL_I2C_Init() returns HAL_OK
2021-12-07T13:36:13 < tct> HAL_I2C_Master_Transmit() returns HAL_ERROR
2021-12-07T13:37:11 < tct> in HAL_I2C_Master_Transmit() is a call to I2C_WaitOnTXISFlagUntilTimeout() which doesn´t return HAL_OK
2021-12-07T13:38:33 < tct> do I need to do anything other than enabling the GPIO clock, configuring GPIO pins and calling HAL_I2C_Init() ?
2021-12-07T13:40:47 < ventYl> does hal i2c init enable i2c peripheral clock?
2021-12-07T13:40:56 < ventYl> i guess not
2021-12-07T13:41:38 < tct> it does. it calls  __HAL_I2C_ENABLE(hi2c);
2021-12-07T13:43:50 < tct> the I2C error is set to HAL_I2C_ERROR_TIMEOUT
2021-12-07T13:44:10 < tct> when HAL_I2C_Master_Transmit() returns
2021-12-07T13:44:57 < tct> I have the scope connected to SDA & SDL data lines and they are constantly high, so it´s not even trying to send data.
2021-12-07T13:46:04 < ventYl> that's why I think that clock is not set up correctly
2021-12-07T13:58:51 < karlp> bleh, finally hit by the parts crunch.  went back to an old project, was goign to order a couple fo the parts for it that I didn't already have, gone...
2021-12-07T14:00:40 < tct> shit, that sucks
2021-12-07T14:08:02 < tct> ventYl, the PE (peripheral enable bit) in CR1 of I2C4 is indeed set to 0... not sure why.
2021-12-07T14:09:04 < ventYl> tct: well, first, I don't know which MCU you are using
2021-12-07T14:09:23 < tct> ventYl, STM32H750
2021-12-07T14:09:34 < ventYl> second, I've found cube being mess and am not using it
2021-12-07T14:09:37 < ventYl> oh well :)
2021-12-07T14:09:44 < ventYl> good luck with that :)
2021-12-07T14:14:55 < tct> :/
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2021-12-07T14:44:31 < bitmask> herro
2021-12-07T14:53:15 < tct> works out of the box with an F401
2021-12-07T14:53:18 < tct> hmpf
2021-12-07T14:54:37 < benishor> jadew: christmas that year was unusual: tv kept on broadcasting all day and all night and we got to see foreign channels such as music channel retransmissions and others
2021-12-07T14:55:30 < benishor> bullets were flying everywhere prior to christmas, though
2021-12-07T14:56:13 < benishor> so we stayed at home, laying down on the floor so as to minimize the chances of getting hit
2021-12-07T14:56:42 < ventYl> tct: H7 has quite complicated clock / power / peripheral, so I wouldn't be surprised if there was a bug in cuba
2021-12-07T14:57:32 < benishor> my family moved out to my uncle's because my dad was an police officer (in the militia) and was held hostage in the police center along with his colleagues
2021-12-07T14:57:49 < benishor> *a police officer
2021-12-07T14:58:28 < jpa-> tct: H7 has kernel clocks for pretty much every peripheral, so make sure you have whatever kernel clock i2c uses is enabled
2021-12-07T14:59:22 < tct> I´ll double check - thanks!
2021-12-07T15:15:22 < jadew> benishor, crap, that must have been scary
2021-12-07T15:16:59 < tct> benishor, may I ask which country you´re located in?
2021-12-07T15:18:38 < oz4ga> hes in romania
2021-12-07T15:19:27 < benishor> tct: same as jadew, romania
2021-12-07T15:19:30 < benishor> hi Tim!
2021-12-07T15:19:37 < oz4ga> hi adrian
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2021-12-07T15:20:52 < kakium69> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwBI3GCR5JA
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--- Log closed Tue Dec 07 16:21:31 2021
--- Log opened Tue Dec 07 16:21:39 2021
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2021-12-07T17:38:06 < kakium69> anyone know what JLC likes about slots to pcb outline?
2021-12-07T17:38:57 < kakium69> let's say 0.7mm slot or 1mm max
2021-12-07T17:39:11 < kakium69> non-plated
2021-12-07T17:39:29 < kakium69> I think I have done something around that with pcbway
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2021-12-07T19:28:21 < jpa-> kakium69: IIRC 1mm minimum slot width
2021-12-07T19:28:34 < jpa-> smaller if plated but then it cannot be on edge
2021-12-07T19:28:58 < kakium69> okay I dids 0.635 x 2
2021-12-07T19:29:17 < kakium69> 0.5mils
2021-12-07T19:29:28 < kakium69> sorry
2021-12-07T19:29:29 < kakium69> 50mils
2021-12-07T19:38:14 < kakium69> I wonder if they populate 0603 leds with just "GREEN" "RED"
2021-12-07T19:38:33 < kakium69> I should maybe look part code for those too
2021-12-07T19:49:12 < kakium69> maybe "LED GREEN" "LED RED"
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2021-12-07T20:01:17 < jpa-> kakium69: eh, haven't you read the PCBA instructions at all?
2021-12-07T20:01:31 < jpa-> they won't populate anything without the JLCPCB part number
2021-12-07T20:01:48 < kakium69> ah
2021-12-07T20:01:52 < kakium69> even resistors?
2021-12-07T20:02:05 < kakium69> I'm just about to
2021-12-07T20:32:09 < kakium69> jpa-: do I need to pick even resistors?
2021-12-07T20:37:15 < zyp> no, pick odd resistors
2021-12-07T20:37:57 < Steffanx> 🤡
2021-12-07T20:39:39 < zyp> kakium69, after you upload the BOM, they do automatic matching of all the parts they recognize, and then give you the list back where you can go through it and specify parts if they weren't matched automatically or you want to use a different part instead
2021-12-07T20:40:06 < kakium69> interactive
2021-12-07T20:40:23 < zyp> IIRC they automatically picked resistors just from plain values, but I had to pick LEDs myself
2021-12-07T20:40:29 < kakium69> I assume there is even a preview thing for pnp?
2021-12-07T20:40:40 < zyp> yes, with orientations
2021-12-07T20:41:19 < zyp> I had to reorient some parts since they had different orientations in my footprint libs
2021-12-07T20:41:36 < zyp> expect to go a few iterations there
2021-12-07T20:41:36 < kakium69> I know kicad lib is solid
2021-12-07T20:44:43 < Steffanx> Yeaah, no
2021-12-07T20:45:01 < Steffanx> What's being innovated kakium69 
2021-12-07T20:45:08 < kakium69> nothing
2021-12-07T20:45:43 < Steffanx> Awesome. Thanks 
2021-12-07T20:46:04 < kakium69> zero innovation
2021-12-07T20:46:08 < Steffanx> You like doing nothing?
2021-12-07T20:46:46 < kakium69> it's better than doing nothing
2021-12-07T20:47:09 < Steffanx> So what's the thing going to do
2021-12-07T20:47:11 < Steffanx> ?
2021-12-07T20:47:11 < xnand> ?<factoid> to query, ?<factoid>=value to set, ?<factoid>-forget to unset
2021-12-07T20:49:00 < kakium69> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wzQVi6-Qf9RgTS-rs-uRx45vr81BABXS?usp=sharing
2021-12-07T20:57:01 < kakium69> now tell me it's beautiful
2021-12-07T20:59:36 < kakium69> hmm why the fuck did I populate bottom side
2021-12-07T21:07:00 < Steffanx> Yeah its beautiful. Whats going to be pwmd?
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2021-12-07T21:37:23 < Steffanx> Hope jlcpcb delivers my latest design before my xmas holidays. What else would i have to do during my xmas holidays ?
2021-12-07T21:38:22 < Steffanx> No assembly though, will do that myself
2021-12-07T21:44:30 < t4nk_freenode> dutch ey... save 2cts on assembly.
2021-12-07T21:46:55 < t4nk_freenode> I ehhh want to make some pcbs, but I have no clue how to make them ;)
2021-12-07T21:48:19 < t4nk_freenode> https://postimg.cc/gallery/QdVSB8d
2021-12-07T21:48:27 < t4nk_freenode> my card reader broke, so I made this
2021-12-07T21:48:29 < t4nk_freenode> ;)
2021-12-07T21:48:43 < kakium69> that works
2021-12-07T21:49:13 < t4nk_freenode> then I made that 'micro-sd-card' ... with some creative cnc'ing... to shove into my ender
2021-12-07T21:49:28 < t4nk_freenode> so I can upload a file to the real sd card and then send it on
2021-12-07T21:49:45 < t4nk_freenode> but... I got No clue how to design a pcb
2021-12-07T21:50:40 < t4nk_freenode> this was actually the first piece of copper clad I ever milled
2021-12-07T21:53:14 < kakium69> install kicad
2021-12-07T21:53:46 < kakium69> start playing
2021-12-07T21:53:54 < t4nk_freenode> got that... wouldn't know how to operate it if you gave me a thousand dollars ;)
2021-12-07T21:54:08 < kakium69> make a project
2021-12-07T21:54:23 < kakium69> open schematic editor and do circuit you want
2021-12-07T21:54:24 < t4nk_freenode> I did actually make some schematics once
2021-12-07T21:54:36 < kakium69> associate footprints for things
2021-12-07T21:54:39 < kakium69> make netlist
2021-12-07T21:54:49 < kakium69> open layout editor and load netlist and boom
2021-12-07T21:54:52 < t4nk_freenode> it was really tough, it kept nagging about things not being right
2021-12-07T21:55:13 < t4nk_freenode> maybe I should look for some tutorials
2021-12-07T21:55:17 < kakium69> you broke rules
2021-12-07T21:55:33 < kakium69> you can change rules in board settings
2021-12-07T21:55:38 < kakium69> or schematic settings
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2021-12-07T21:59:49 < mawk> ventYl I bought a film scanner
2021-12-07T21:59:55 < mawk> I'm a real pro now
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2021-12-07T22:00:14 < mawk> normally I'll have even more resolution that these thieves at the photo lab
2021-12-07T22:00:28 < Steffanx> No t4nk_freenode they didn't have the parts I need. And I'm not going to have them assembly it partially and then solder some qfn after
2021-12-07T22:00:33 < ventYl> mawk: I don't have film camera anymore. I borrowed mine to a friend, she stopped being my friend years ago and I didn't see my camera anymore
2021-12-07T22:00:51 < mawk> break into her house
2021-12-07T22:00:54 < mawk> get it back
2021-12-07T22:01:01 < t4nk_freenode> Steffanx, .... I'm even worse than you, trying to mill my pcb's ;)
2021-12-07T22:01:21 < mawk> trying to pill your pcbs?
2021-12-07T22:01:33 < Steffanx> Or refriend her ventYl  
2021-12-07T22:01:37 < mawk> there's only a dutch guy to write pcb's instead of pcbs
2021-12-07T22:01:50 < mawk> or say "of" instead of "or"
2021-12-07T22:01:57 < mawk> that's how you spot them in the wild
2021-12-07T22:02:01 < Steffanx> Hes very dutch 
2021-12-07T22:02:15 < mawk> see, my method works everytime
2021-12-07T22:02:27 < t4nk_freenode> except I made no such error here
2021-12-07T22:02:32 < Steffanx> Yes you did.
2021-12-07T22:02:38 < mawk> you said pcb's
2021-12-07T22:02:43 < t4nk_freenode> ah
2021-12-07T22:02:44 < t4nk_freenode> ys
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2021-12-07T22:02:49 < t4nk_freenode> yeah, I did
2021-12-07T22:02:50 < t4nk_freenode> lol
2021-12-07T22:03:16 < t4nk_freenode> I started of by spelling it correctly though
2021-12-07T22:03:19 < t4nk_freenode> so I'm 1-1
2021-12-07T22:03:20 < ventYl> Steffanx: I haven't even used that camera. IIRC I got it as surplus item when I bought my first digital camera
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2021-12-07T22:03:40 < ventYl> interesting question is, what lens did I gave the camera to her with
2021-12-07T22:03:45 < ventYl> as the 50/1.8 is here
2021-12-07T22:03:50 < mawk> it's weird in dutch how they throw this 's willy-nilly
2021-12-07T22:04:08 < Steffanx> Its easy 
2021-12-07T22:04:20 < mawk> apostrophe is important, and it's wasted on indicating plural
2021-12-07T22:04:31 < t4nk_freenode> though I find 'pcbs' a bit odd looking, PCBs looks better
2021-12-07T22:04:38 < mawk> which brand ventYl ?
2021-12-07T22:05:09 < ventYl> mawk: i don't recall anymore, but it wasn't definitely anything fancy. Some generic M42 mechanical camera w/o exposition meter with metal shutter
2021-12-07T22:05:16 < ventYl> from '60s I think
2021-12-07T22:05:21 < mawk> a
2021-12-07T22:05:41 < ventYl> I went to guy who sells M42 lenses, he found it in calague and it had marginal resale value
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2021-12-07T22:05:53 < ventYl> like $20 if worky
2021-12-07T22:06:07 < mawk> a
2021-12-07T22:06:08 < ventYl> I don't even know if timer mechanism is still correct or off
2021-12-07T22:06:24 < mawk> you can recalibrate it
2021-12-07T22:06:30 < ventYl> no i can't
2021-12-07T22:06:33 < mawk> by tightening some springs
2021-12-07T22:06:34 < mawk> why
2021-12-07T22:06:36 < Steffanx> Digital is so much easier 😋
2021-12-07T22:06:42 < ventYl> i don't have that camera here :D
2021-12-07T22:06:45 < mawk> lol
2021-12-07T22:06:54 < t4nk_freenode> "I started of by spelling it correctly though" .... that's another error I tend not to make very often, yet I did
2021-12-07T22:06:58 < t4nk_freenode> 'off' 
2021-12-07T22:07:16 < mawk> wrong Steffanx 
2021-12-07T22:07:20 < ventYl> Steffanx: it is quite hard to do astrophotography with film
2021-12-07T22:07:21 < t4nk_freenode> unsure if it was a keyboard error or plain stupid
2021-12-07T22:07:34 < ventYl> like, not entirely, but you need additional HW
2021-12-07T22:07:37 < mawk> for digital to work you need to send a small african child in a lithium mine to make you a battery
2021-12-07T22:07:42 < ventYl> with digital, SW can compensate for missing HW
2021-12-07T22:08:09 < mawk> then you need to send a small chinese child down a mine fetch you coal to make the electricity to fill up that battery
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2021-12-07T22:08:23 < Steffanx> Your flash uses magic?
2021-12-07T22:08:26 < mawk> meanwhile my camera can work with no electricity or battery
2021-12-07T22:08:33 < mawk> which flash
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2021-12-07T22:08:47 < fenugrec> just use an oldschool magnesium flash thing
2021-12-07T22:08:51 < Steffanx> The one that could he handy once in a while 
2021-12-07T22:08:54 < mawk> anyway there are magnesium flash no battery needed
2021-12-07T22:08:56 < Steffanx> Hah fenugrec  
2021-12-07T22:09:20 < mawk> just expose the film for longer in the absence of ligh 
2021-12-07T22:09:22 < ventYl> I have an ancient Canon flash
2021-12-07T22:09:28 < mawk> tell people to stand still
2021-12-07T22:10:10 < mawk> I recently found a tripod so it's perfect
2021-12-07T22:10:41 < fenugrec> what happened... I was designing a "simple" TTL pulse generator with 5-6 parts, and now BOM has 45 lines
2021-12-07T22:11:50 < Steffanx> Anyway, good luck taking 400 photos mawk 
2021-12-07T22:11:55 < ventYl> that Canon flash is a gold, because it doesn't put high voltage over hot shoe, so it can still be used with modern digital cameras
2021-12-07T22:12:01 < ventYl> yet you have to adjust for using it
2021-12-07T22:12:22 < mawk> why Steffanx 
2021-12-07T22:12:43 < mawk> I just have to have 11 rolls of film
2021-12-07T22:12:49 < Steffanx> Then the battery of my camera empty. 
2021-12-07T22:12:55 < Steffanx> Would be *
2021-12-07T22:13:05 < Steffanx> I just need another battery
2021-12-07T22:13:07 < mawk> and 400 pictures is a lot, that means it's taken over some months
2021-12-07T22:13:45 < Steffanx> Anyway, its about the charm of analog. Not the batteries or other irrelevant shit
2021-12-07T22:13:45 < mawk> if it weren't a lot and 400 pictures were taken over a day that would mean most are pictures of the floor or of your food
2021-12-07T22:14:33 < mawk> even my light meter doesn't have a battery
2021-12-07T22:15:00 < mawk> it uses energy from the light itself to move a microampere meter needle
2021-12-07T22:15:25 < mawk> and tell me how much thing to let into the thing
2021-12-07T22:16:27 < mawk> but actually I don't use it I use the one built into the camera and that needs illegal mercury batteries
2021-12-07T22:17:29 < Steffanx> My macro lens is manual. That's almost analogue -_-
2021-12-07T22:17:52 < mawk> lol
2021-12-07T22:17:53 < mawk> yes
2021-12-07T22:18:03 < mawk> well there are automatic analog cameras
2021-12-07T22:18:20 < mawk> with auto exposure, auto focus, auto winding of the film, auto rewind
2021-12-07T22:18:23 < mawk> auto everything
2021-12-07T22:18:35 < mawk> also auto stabilization
2021-12-07T22:19:34 < ventYl> mawk: being that you I wrote her a message if my camera still exists
2021-12-07T22:20:07 < mawk> lol
2021-12-07T22:20:31 < mawk> she maybe kept it
2021-12-07T22:21:14 < qyx> do you expect...
2021-12-07T22:21:24 < ventYl>  it still exists, yet complication
2021-12-07T22:21:33 < ventYl> she divorced and now the camera is at her ex :D
2021-12-07T22:21:36 < ventYl> FFS
2021-12-07T22:22:07 < qyx> write her ex then
2021-12-07T22:22:38 < ventYl> that will be a bit more funny
2021-12-07T22:29:15 < Steffanx> Few years from now ventYl is married and has kids. And he can tell his kids about IRC and the lost camera.
2021-12-07T22:29:39 < ventYl> I have a lot of ancient shit, so more stories to come
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2021-12-07T23:11:29 < karlp> heh, silergy 12A switcher I planned is out of stock, nothing comparable on lcsc anymore, tempting to just drop a 30W meanwell board mount ac/dc on and call it finished :)
2021-12-07T23:31:06 < qyx> mfm-30?
2021-12-07T23:33:49 < karlp> yup
2021-12-07T23:34:08 < karlp> well, well, IRM30 actually, it's cheaper
2021-12-07T23:34:11 < karlp> but ~same.
2021-12-07T23:34:29 < karlp> fucking picking this shit again is unfun and feels super unproductive
2021-12-07T23:35:19 < karlp> it's tedious going backwards frrom stock optiosn all the time...
2021-12-07T23:40:48 < karlp> sorting win: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/4eEp2/mouser-no-data-errors.png
2021-12-07T23:41:33 < kakium69> heat shrink tubes
2021-12-07T23:41:45 < kakium69> specs say sleeve diameter
2021-12-07T23:42:00 < kakium69> this means if sleeve is made into circle?
2021-12-07T23:43:28 < qyx> mfm-30 is medical, low whatever leakage
2021-12-07T23:43:54 < qyx> kakium69: yes
2021-12-07T23:46:04 < karlp> yeah, we have mfm15 on a board here, it's the cheapest that meets the specs for the size.
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--- Day changed Wed Dec 08 2021
2021-12-08T00:03:37 < kakium69> sweet
2021-12-08T00:03:59 < kakium69> JLCPCB ran out of sot23 NPNs
2021-12-08T00:04:08 < t4nk_freenode> (thanks for shoving me into KiCad HELL, kakium69 )
2021-12-08T00:04:19 < kakium69> welcome
2021-12-08T00:04:24 < t4nk_freenode> :(
2021-12-08T00:04:59 < kakium69> I don't even have sot23 npns in my shelf
2021-12-08T00:05:00 < kakium69> maybe
2021-12-08T00:05:45 < t4nk_freenode> first I had to listen to some indian dude, acting like he is talking tooooo!?!??!? toooooo!?! a kindergarten class
2021-12-08T00:06:18 < t4nk_freenode> and now I think I need to install some more stuff, because I have no filtered footprints
2021-12-08T00:06:31 < Steffanx> I'm still curious what your background is t4nk_freenode 
2021-12-08T00:06:51 < Steffanx> No EE or anything related I assume?
2021-12-08T00:07:07 < t4nk_freenode> nope... I tried a lot though
2021-12-08T00:07:18 < t4nk_freenode> nothing ever works
2021-12-08T00:08:28 < kakium69> what is filtered footprints
2021-12-08T00:08:54 < kakium69> just install kicad with footprints
2021-12-08T00:09:12 < t4nk_freenode> I'm using Gentoo, so it's a bit different
2021-12-08T00:09:32 < kakium69> aptitude install kicad-footprints
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2021-12-08T00:11:02 < t4nk_freenode> it's currently (re)building oce
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2021-12-08T00:30:43 < Steffanx> Gentoo. Imagine how much you could have done in the time you wasted ;)
2021-12-08T00:31:01 < t4nk_freenode> (sst, I'm busy :b )
2021-12-08T00:36:14 < kakium6929> after certain time wasted you need to commit fully
2021-12-08T00:36:22 < kakium6929> Steffanx
2021-12-08T00:36:30 < kakium6929> whatever you are doing
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2021-12-08T00:41:40 < Steffanx> Nothing is the best thing to do kakium69 
2021-12-08T00:42:59 < karlp> lcsc has  ~zero "big" switchers anymore. it used to have _heaps_ of them
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2021-12-08T00:51:30 < kakium69> BJTs looking bad
2021-12-08T00:51:38 < kakium69> like pick one of 3 options
2021-12-08T00:51:50 < kakium69> in to* packages
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2021-12-08T01:18:02 < t4nk_freenode> in all earnest; this whole KiCad is one big pile of rubbish... 
2021-12-08T01:18:18 < t4nk_freenode> a big pile of library junk
2021-12-08T01:18:55 < t4nk_freenode> heh, talk about your waste of time.
2021-12-08T01:19:02 < kakium69> there is alternatives
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2021-12-08T01:24:10 < t4nk_freenode> hehe, there's even a #kicad
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2021-12-08T11:18:32 < catphish> lol gentoo is an exercise in proving you have too much time on your hands
2021-12-08T11:34:59 < ventYl> either you are up too early, or I woke up too late
2021-12-08T11:49:57 < catphish> i woke up at 9, i was not ready to wake up
2021-12-08T12:00:59 < PaulFertser> catphish: I have some tips supposed to make using Gentoo easier, are you interested?
2021-12-08T12:02:15 < Xogium> would that be, don't use gentoo ? ;)
2021-12-08T12:02:18 < Xogium> just kidding
2021-12-08T12:03:44 < PaulFertser> Hey Xogium good morning
2021-12-08T12:04:00 < Xogium> morning :)
2021-12-08T12:10:15 < t4nk_freenode> mmm... I'm afraid it's mostly wild silly stories, blindly repeated
2021-12-08T12:10:46 < t4nk_freenode> I couldn't go back to a standard distro
2021-12-08T12:12:39 < t4nk_freenode> when you're up to date, I'm willing to bet it is many times faster to update a Gentoo system than it is to update windows
2021-12-08T12:13:31 < Xogium> well I wanted to try gentoo for the fun of it in the past, but my hardware was definitely not able to compile any good
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2021-12-08T12:14:10 < t4nk_freenode> well... that's a point; it won't be a happy experience with lesser hardware
2021-12-08T12:14:12 < Xogium> like it was a poor third gen core i5 that got burning hot as soon as I dared using all its cores, compiling linux took about 3 hours because it was going beyond 95 degrees
2021-12-08T12:14:13 < t4nk_freenode> not at all!
2021-12-08T12:15:56 < Xogium> now I have a very nice machine that wouldn't mind it, ryzen 7 3700x and fancy ddr4 ram and things like that, just haven't found the time to mess around with it yet in a vm, and I don't think their iso even have accessibility enabled
2021-12-08T12:16:03 < t4nk_freenode> even with faster hardware you start noticing longer compile times over time
2021-12-08T12:16:48 < Xogium> yeah, but right now the ryzen takes about 5 minutes to build a standard x86_64 kernel defconfig, which is… muuuuuch better than 3 hours
2021-12-08T12:16:51 < t4nk_freenode> I have a 2700x, I figure a 3700 would be more enjoyable
2021-12-08T12:18:47 < Xogium> it's like night and day difference for me lol
2021-12-08T12:19:43 < t4nk_freenode> only problem I have with these processors is that they're relatively power hungry
2021-12-08T12:19:44 < Xogium> but then again the core i5 was a laptop, and laptops are very bad at doing intensive jobs like compiling…
2021-12-08T12:20:13 < Xogium> still, 95 degrees was terrible, that's even with new thermal paste and such
2021-12-08T12:20:51 < Xogium> I once tried to launch minecraft just to see if the game was going to be accessible…
2021-12-08T12:21:18 < Xogium> it was idling at around 55 degrees, and went past 110 degrees in about 5 seconds, thermal shutdown
2021-12-08T12:22:52 < Xogium> that was… funny if nothing else
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2021-12-08T12:23:48 < t4nk_freenode> I always like watching the system monitor when it's compiling, nice to see the resources being used
2021-12-08T12:24:23 < Xogium> but then that laptop went completely crazy and decided to reset the bios while it was in suspend, of all things. Lets just say linux didn't exactly like the idea, and my laptop kept power up and down in a loop until I managed to shut it down with the power button for good, then I booted it up again, or rather tried to. Only to have the bios complaining about invalid partition table. Guess what ? 
2021-12-08T12:24:27 < t4nk_freenode> and you'd better pack enough RAM, and still watch it evaporate just like that
2021-12-08T12:24:29 < Xogium> Apparently, the default for this bios was legacy boot
2021-12-08T12:24:44 < Xogium> when I got the laptop it was set to uefi. I never once thought for one second that legacy could be default
2021-12-08T12:25:11 < ventYl> speaking of laptops, I have to kick out linux from my old laptop
2021-12-08T12:25:24 < ventYl> ++out
2021-12-08T12:26:02 < ventYl> nah, neither I was ready to wake up this morning
2021-12-08T12:26:38 < Xogium> so yeah… it was about time I got a new machine, this other one was really going nut
2021-12-08T12:28:50 < mawk> PaulFertser: is the tip "use debian" ?
2021-12-08T12:28:52 < mawk> I apply that tip too
2021-12-08T12:29:00 < srk> use nixos or guix :D
2021-12-08T12:29:22 < srk> my two lenovo laptops overheat as well, should replace paste and fans
2021-12-08T12:30:00 < ventYl> my current laptop has no paste and no fans
2021-12-08T12:30:04 < ventYl> so it overheats
2021-12-08T12:30:09 < mawk> >guile
2021-12-08T12:30:29 < mawk> my laptop used to overheat because I bent the copper heat pipe
2021-12-08T12:30:34 < mawk> which apparently was a bad thing to do
2021-12-08T12:30:44 < mawk> but the supplier sent me a new one for a dozen euros
2021-12-08T12:37:34 < Steffann> Why you did that mr mawk?
2021-12-08T12:43:44 < ventYl> bent looked nicer
2021-12-08T12:48:24 < ventYl> it sucks when linux GUI learns something from windows
2021-12-08T12:48:56 < Xogium> what'd it do ?
2021-12-08T12:49:07 < ventYl> and it doublesucks if it gets turned on by default after update
2021-12-08T12:50:50 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-08T12:52:56 < ventYl> KDE now shows windows thumbnails by default if you hover over task button. which is super annoying
2021-12-08T12:54:15 < kakium69> mawk: you know how heat pipes work?
2021-12-08T12:54:31 < Xogium> erk
2021-12-08T12:54:41 < Xogium> my gui is ratpoison ;)
2021-12-08T12:54:49 < Xogium> don't really need anything else here
2021-12-08T12:55:21 < t4nk_freenode> ventYl, you mean the little thumbnails showing the application windows when you hover the mouse over them in the 'taskbar', aka bottom panel?
2021-12-08T12:56:19 < ventYl> t4nk_freenode: yeah
2021-12-08T12:57:39 < ventYl> Xogium: I am used to KDE for almost 20 years now. And this machine doesn't particularly like GUIs which are not HW accelerated to the last bit drawn, so usually the faster the GUI is on PC, the slower it will be here
2021-12-08T12:58:08 < ventYl> i3, awm, twm, ratpoison clocking in as the slowest possible options
2021-12-08T13:00:41 < t4nk_freenode> the previews have been in KDE for quite a while now, can't even remember when they were introduced
2021-12-08T13:01:01 < t4nk_freenode> I like 'em, in general
2021-12-08T13:01:20 < ventYl> well, I like my KDE set up as if it was 4.2 or 3.5
2021-12-08T13:01:27 < ventYl> no fanciness no bullshit
2021-12-08T13:01:53 < ventYl> one update converted all my taskbar icons into "live buttons"
2021-12-08T13:01:56 < t4nk_freenode> I've always used KDE, since I switched to linux for good, around '2000
2021-12-08T13:02:45 < t4nk_freenode> hang on, I don't know about that, I always select the classic menu
2021-12-08T13:02:52 < t4nk_freenode> I can't deal with these new menus
2021-12-08T13:03:29 < ventYl> new menu is actually good. you can open it and start typing what you want to run and press enter
2021-12-08T13:03:44 < ventYl> no more than 5 keystrokes. navigating some windows 95-style menu is... waste of time
2021-12-08T13:03:54 < ventYl> or use krunner
2021-12-08T13:04:23 < t4nk_freenode> they've disabled ALT-F2 to search and run I see
2021-12-08T13:05:38 < ventYl> it isn't, just the shortcut is some weirdness
2021-12-08T13:07:38 < mawk> it was an accident Steffann 
2021-12-08T13:07:59 < mawk> the fan was doing some weird vibration in resonance with the radiator at the end of the heat pipe
2021-12-08T13:08:06 < mawk> to I tried to glue the radiator to the laptop case
2021-12-08T13:08:14 < mawk> and to place the glue I had to lift it up a bit
2021-12-08T13:08:19 < mawk> and that bent the heat pipe
2021-12-08T13:08:24 < mawk> heat pipe copper isn't very sturdy apparently
2021-12-08T13:08:34 < mawk> yes kakium69 it's magic water flying around inside
2021-12-08T13:09:12 < mawk> no-one disabled that t4nk_freenode 
2021-12-08T13:09:19 < mawk> you can do alt+space also
2021-12-08T13:09:21 < mawk> it's faster
2021-12-08T13:09:42 < t4nk_freenode> neither of those work for me anymore
2021-12-08T13:09:46 < mawk> really
2021-12-08T13:09:54 < mawk> I have a brand new debian 11 with kde installed yesterday and it works
2021-12-08T13:10:04 < mawk> maybe something is wrong with your installation
2021-12-08T13:10:23 < t4nk_freenode> does it have  5.23.3?
2021-12-08T13:10:34 < t4nk_freenode> that's what I'm on
2021-12-08T13:10:42 < ventYl> lol, it's debian. it probably has some 4.somethin
2021-12-08T13:10:51 < mawk> it says 5:111 in the version
2021-12-08T13:11:03 < t4nk_freenode> yeah, ventYl ;)
2021-12-08T13:11:43 < mawk> 5.20.5 I think
2021-12-08T13:11:54 < t4nk_freenode> yeah, 5.20 it seems
2021-12-08T13:12:33 < mawk> you may have configured key capture for an application and then it steals the shortcut from KDE
2021-12-08T13:14:12 < t4nk_freenode> nope... there are even reports about it
2021-12-08T13:16:41 < PaulFertser> mawk: no, I like Gentoo and I've been using it for many years and I know some rules that make it reasonably painless.
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2021-12-08T13:19:27 < t4nk_freenode> I got my alt-space back ;) ... there seems to be a duplicate entry for KRunner in system settings, shortcuts
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2021-12-08T13:45:52 < catphish> t4nk_freenode: in all seriousness, i like gentoo, i used it as my desktop OS for years, used to have a lot of fun with bleeding edge compiz, but since then i've got lazy and just install an ububtu derivative, which is also dramatically faster to update than windows ;)
2021-12-08T13:49:43 < t4nk_freenode> I started out using Suse with KDE, until my system slowed to a crawl. Then I switched to Kubuntu, been using that for years until I switched to Gentoo early 2018 I guess
2021-12-08T13:50:53 < t4nk_freenode> I find the idea of a rolling distro very appealing
2021-12-08T13:51:44 < mawk> nice flex pcb: https://www.flickr.com/photos/55709181@N07/48054332307/in/dateposted-public/
2021-12-08T13:51:49 < t4nk_freenode> I have so many installation CDs lieing around... I don't even have a dvd player anymore ;)
2021-12-08T13:52:16 < mawk> what is ububtu catphish ?
2021-12-08T13:53:28 < t4nk_freenode> that's what ubuntu SHould have been called in the general opinion.
2021-12-08T13:54:18 < srk> t4nk_freenode: I'm running nixos as rolling distro, pulling nixpkgs from time to time. best thing is that you can roll back and bisect 
2021-12-08T13:57:15 < specing> catphish: you could use funtoo, it's gentoo derivative distro with binpackages 
2021-12-08T14:00:43 < mawk> I can roll back with debian too srk 
2021-12-08T14:00:45 < srk> how does it work? do they build binaries with different use flags?
2021-12-08T14:00:48 < mawk> it's calling wiping out the hard drive and reinstalling
2021-12-08T14:00:57 < srk> ouch
2021-12-08T14:01:30 < catphish> binpackages seem unnecessary, compiling has never really been the problem
2021-12-08T14:02:09 < t4nk_freenode> and moreover; then you're back to being dependent on maintainers to do the compiling
2021-12-08T14:02:12 < catphish> and they do somewhat defy the point of gentoo's flag system
2021-12-08T14:02:48 < srk> maybe you can build a large matrix :D
2021-12-08T14:02:52 < catphish> the only question is - how well does gentoo play with debian binary packages?
2021-12-08T14:03:08 < catphish> because that's one main reason i chose to use ubuntu and now mint
2021-12-08T14:03:23 < catphish> nonfree software is always available as a deb
2021-12-08T14:03:33 < catphish> not that i use much of it, but sometimes i do
2021-12-08T14:03:53 < mawk> why aren't you using debian catphish 
2021-12-08T14:03:59 < mawk> why settle for the imitation when you can have the real thing
2021-12-08T14:04:39 < catphish> mawk: i've actually never tried debian, i like the out of the box desktop experience of mint, and simply have no compelling reason to switch
2021-12-08T14:04:51 < t4nk_freenode> probably a matter of dependencies, catphish, if they're satisfied it should work
2021-12-08T14:04:54 < mawk> you can choose your DE on debian
2021-12-08T14:05:03 < mawk> you can use cinnamon if you lik it
2021-12-08T14:05:08 < mawk> nobody does though
2021-12-08T14:05:17 < mawk> everyone in their sane mind uses KDE
2021-12-08T14:05:30 < catphish> i haven't used kde since it got weird with v3
2021-12-08T14:05:47 < mawk> I just received a mail from ST that says "Please ignore our previous email"
2021-12-08T14:06:02 < t4nk_freenode> yeah, I've been getting mails from them too
2021-12-08T14:07:01 < t4nk_freenode> last one showed up in the junk folder, I left it there ;)
2021-12-08T14:07:09 < catphish> i guess it's just a personal preference thing, when i started using ubuntu it was gnome 2, and it just felt right, i now use mate and really have no desire to change to anything shinier
2021-12-08T14:08:00 < catphish> and now off to the EV workshop, have fun
2021-12-08T14:08:11 -!- catphish [~charlie@user/catphish] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
2021-12-08T14:08:26 < srk> :D
2021-12-08T14:09:25 < kakium69> kde3.5
2021-12-08T14:09:30 < kakium69> the bestest
2021-12-08T14:10:08 < kakium69> everything since is just weak
2021-12-08T14:11:27 < ventYl> I find debian as probably the worst option
2021-12-08T14:11:44 < kakium69> therefore I use light desktops because there is no difference to get "full desktop"
2021-12-08T14:12:14 < ventYl> i've never had any issues which were "popular" after KDE rolled out 4.0
2021-12-08T14:12:23 < ventYl> people were complaining that everything sucks, but it was working
2021-12-08T14:12:26 < ventYl> for me
2021-12-08T14:13:56 < kakium69> I have not touched kde since 4
2021-12-08T14:15:14 < kakium69> maybe should try 5
2021-12-08T14:15:16 < kakium69> or whatever is now
2021-12-08T14:15:31 < ventYl> on non-x86 you have to use it
2021-12-08T14:16:36 < qyx> why
2021-12-08T14:17:18 < ventYl> no 2D acceleration implemented in HW, thus it is SW emulated. that makes all "fast" GUIs slow as fuck
2021-12-08T14:17:24 < qyx> also wut debian, ventYl is drunk probably
2021-12-08T14:17:59 < qyx> lets fight for the bestest distro now
2021-12-08T14:18:16 < t4nk_freenode> TempleOS
2021-12-08T14:18:31 < kakium69> Gentoo
2021-12-08T14:18:50 < kakium69> thread closed
2021-12-08T14:19:41 < t4nk_freenode> ohnooooo! Terry A. Davis went to meet his Maker :|
2021-12-08T14:20:03 < kakium69> it's not allowed to say that name here
2021-12-08T14:21:18 < t4nk_freenode> ok then, back to decrypting KiCad
2021-12-08T14:21:33 < kakium69> decrypting?
2021-12-08T14:22:10 < kakium69> I see you had some progress with #kicad
2021-12-08T14:22:27 < kakium69> it's not totally hopeless situation?
2021-12-08T14:22:55 < t4nk_freenode> a little, I think I got the libraries sorted now, and I'm on the latest version
2021-12-08T14:23:38 < t4nk_freenode> I'm now watching the 'Getting to Blinky' series someone suggested
2021-12-08T14:31:52 < kakium69> is 100% paste good for 0603 passives and QFN pins expect the pad?
2021-12-08T14:32:53 < kakium69> it be fine rite
2021-12-08T14:33:10 < kakium69> *except the exposed pad
2021-12-08T14:42:18 < kakium69> can JLCPCB send me parts that are not assembled into PCBA?
2021-12-08T14:42:57 < kakium69> I see they will not even hand assemble to another side
2021-12-08T14:43:31 < kakium69> kinda relied on that I can do THTs to other side and SMT to other side
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2021-12-08T14:55:52 < kakium69> can I add like a message there and wait 1day more?
2021-12-08T15:10:34 < jpa-> no, they don't have time to do anything custom
2021-12-08T15:13:02 < kakium69> not even for a service fee?
2021-12-08T15:14:18 < jpa-> that's not their business model
2021-12-08T15:15:02 < kakium69> yes
2021-12-08T15:15:11 < kakium69> I see how it works now
2021-12-08T15:15:19 < kakium69> it's highly automated process
2021-12-08T15:15:46 < qyx> yes except the girl at AOI
2021-12-08T15:15:56 < qyx> it always makes me lol
2021-12-08T15:16:28 < qyx> AOI is one of the easier things to fully automate in-line
2021-12-08T15:16:30 < kakium69> AOI?
2021-12-08T15:16:36 < qyx> and yet they do it manually
2021-12-08T15:16:53 < qyx> as in, they manually load and unload the device
2021-12-08T15:17:02 < qyx> auto optical inspection
2021-12-08T15:32:16 < kakium69> I think it has something to do with promoting inspecting and quality control
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2021-12-08T16:05:35 < kakium69> One page says you need "JLCPCB Part#" field and another says "LCSC" while there is picture of bom with "LCSC Part Number"
2021-12-08T16:06:10 < kakium69> which one do you use?
2021-12-08T16:06:49 < mawk> isn't it the same?
2021-12-08T16:06:54 < mawk> it's like the same compant
2021-12-08T16:06:55 < mawk> company
2021-12-08T16:08:46 < kakium69> they probs have regex for both JLC and LCSC
2021-12-08T16:14:58 < kakium69> okay bom script wants LCSC
2021-12-08T16:30:33 < kakium69> now I need to pack the files
2021-12-08T16:30:56 < kakium69> separate file for PCB gerbers and PCB assembly?
2021-12-08T16:31:49 < kakium69> lets see youtube example of jlcpcb order
2021-12-08T16:37:05 < kakium69> just slap all files to one zip and dones?
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2021-12-08T16:50:34 < kakium69> should I see components on quote page picture?
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2021-12-08T17:07:44 < kakium69> failed processing CPL file
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2021-12-08T17:34:29 < kakium69> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/12g2I48g2hLCBaxgivMY5Zr7DcAsEzhB5?usp=sharing
2021-12-08T17:35:37 < kakium69> in process of trying to make CPL work I omitted packages too
2021-12-08T17:36:22 < kakium69> I think it was field name issue but I made it look just like the example
2021-12-08T17:37:49 < kakium69> JLC pros tell me if my diodes are -180degrees wrong
2021-12-08T17:39:46 < kakium69> "The parts placement is for reference purposes only. Our engineer will review and fix the components orientation in 4-6 hours after you place the order. You can check the result in your order history."
2021-12-08T17:43:06 < kakium69> can I comment the result if it's wrong?
2021-12-08T17:44:43 < kakium69> let's go
2021-12-08T17:50:16 < kakium69> 140buckeroones for 20pcs
2021-12-08T17:52:18 < kakium69> that 7dollards for a piece + connectors I need to get separatelly
2021-12-08T18:02:15 < Steffann> That's incl. Shipping?
2021-12-08T18:02:18 < kakium69> yes
2021-12-08T18:02:29 < kakium69> that is the biggest part shipping+duty
2021-12-08T18:02:35 < kakium69> 74dollards
2021-12-08T18:02:54 < Steffann> Not so bad then. I paid 70 euro for just 5 PCBs incl shipping and duties and shit
2021-12-08T18:03:14 < Steffann> And no assembly 
2021-12-08T18:03:29 < qyx> where Steffann 
2021-12-08T18:03:31 < qyx> such money
2021-12-08T18:03:53 < kakium69> 4layers stuff steff?
2021-12-08T18:03:55 < qyx> aisler no good? no shipping, no duties, usually no shit
2021-12-08T18:03:56 < Steffann> Jlc pcb 
2021-12-08T18:04:09 < Steffann> 4 layer indeed
2021-12-08T18:04:15 < kakium69> gold everything?
2021-12-08T18:04:19 < qyx> also they manufacture in .nl, .de and .cz
2021-12-08T18:04:20 < Steffann> Yeah 
2021-12-08T18:04:26 < qyx> so fast
2021-12-08T18:04:41 < Steffann> I didnt even consider aisler 😅
2021-12-08T18:04:52 < qyx> fuk I did 4L many times at jlc, never paid so much
2021-12-08T18:05:01 < qyx> you did something wrong
2021-12-08T18:05:15 < qyx> aisler is about 35e for 4L, 3 boards
2021-12-08T18:05:29 < qyx> depends on the size of course
2021-12-08T18:05:40 < Steffann> Shipping was like half of it
2021-12-08T18:06:00 < Steffann> Dhl + duties/vat and stuff makes it expensive 
2021-12-08T18:06:15 < qyx> upload your stuff to aisler an  check the price
2021-12-08T18:06:16 < Steffann> + stencil
2021-12-08T18:06:18 < qyx> just for the lulz
2021-12-08T18:06:22 < qyx> oh stencil
2021-12-08T18:07:01 < Steffann> Lol, OK aisler is MUCH cheaper 😅
2021-12-08T18:07:08 < Steffann> Why I forgot about aisler?
2021-12-08T18:08:02 < Steffann> Nah, too late anyway
2021-12-08T18:09:56 < Steffann> Gotta support the Chinese economy 
2021-12-08T18:10:39 < Steffann> And it seems aisler does 4L in .cz. 
2021-12-08T18:11:01 < Steffann> How fast is aisler < 1.5 weeks?
2021-12-08T18:14:19 < Steffann> So aisler is cheaper unless they're are hiding something 
2021-12-08T18:22:32 < qyx> not hiding, ordered multiple times too
2021-12-08T18:22:43 < qyx> the price you see is final
2021-12-08T18:23:06 < qyx> usually 1-2 weeks, depends
2021-12-08T18:23:19 < qyx> I usually select the free shipping option
2021-12-08T18:36:40 < karlp> has aisler admitted they need a basket yet?
2021-12-08T18:42:37 < qyx> no :>
2021-12-08T18:44:54 < kakium69> hmm I forgot to think about test/self-test aspect completelly
2021-12-08T18:45:18 < kakium69> this means I'm back to being 100% hobbyist
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2021-12-08T19:10:03 < octorian> Are there any good guides or example projects on how to best use the watchdog timers (IWDG and WWDG) in the context of firmware running an RTOS?
2021-12-08T19:10:34 < octorian> I think I've seem some suggestions to use both, perhaps the IWDG as a failsafe against the system going haywire, and the WWDG as a failsafe against software lockups.
2021-12-08T19:11:03 < octorian> But this all comes down to a few scattered forum comments, not any sort of well thought out guide or example project.
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2021-12-08T19:26:30 < kakium69> maybe just a task
2021-12-08T19:30:44 < kakium69> with task delay and watchdog service in it
2021-12-08T19:30:48 < kakium69> ?
2021-12-08T19:30:48 < xnand> ?<factoid> to query, ?<factoid>=value to set, ?<factoid>-forget to unset
2021-12-08T19:30:56 < kakium69> thanks xnand
2021-12-08T19:38:18 < jpa-> octorian: you need to consider what is the bad thing that happens if your software stops, and in what way a watchdog can help against it
2021-12-08T19:39:14 < jpa-> e.g. for an IOT device it is usually "device stops contacting server"; and then you need to tie watchdog resets to server contacts, and have e.g. backup remote bootloader to recover from
2021-12-08T19:40:01 < kakium69> so you should tie watchdog to your specific application instead of just rtos task scheduler
2021-12-08T19:40:15 < jpa-> or for motor control it is "PWM signal stops and motor current is exceeded", in which case it is simpler to just have a separate timer control the enable signal, so that outputs are turned off if PWM period is not updated for some time - that way you can even use breakpoints when debugging without issues
2021-12-08T19:41:13 < jpa-> for some devices the bad thing is "software stops responding" and the fix is "just automatically reset it and hope that user doesn't notice"; in which case tying watchdog to RTOS scheduler makes sense
2021-12-08T19:41:13 < octorian> Yeah, none of this is what I'm asking about.
2021-12-08T19:41:42 < octorian> This is all just obvious "here's when you kick the dog" stuff.
2021-12-08T19:42:13 < jpa-> so what part is *not* obvious to you?
2021-12-08T19:42:44 < octorian> Well, there are two watchdog timers to work with.  Do I use one, or both, and are there common strategies/patterns?
2021-12-08T19:43:19 < jpa-> do you want to check if something occurs in specific time window, or just that it occurs often enough?
2021-12-08T19:44:56 < jpa-> in general, IWDG is the more robust one against both hardware and software failures, and WWDG is only when you need to react quickly to both too short and too long interval
2021-12-08T19:47:02 < octorian> I'm thinking maybe have the IWDG triggered by something "automatic" as a guard against the hardware freezing up and/or the scheduler outright stopping.  And then using the WWDG to make sure the actual functionality of the firmware is behaving.  Not sure if that makes sense, or if its a common/good approach.
2021-12-08T19:47:48 < jpa-> what advantage does that provide over just using the IWDG for the actual functionality? after all, if your hardware freezes your actual functionality stops also
2021-12-08T19:48:53 < octorian> But I guess what I'm really looking for is some sort of guide and/or example project that shows a good way of doing all this.  All I have now is a few scattered forum posts, and this conversation which honestly isn't any deeper or more complete than those.
2021-12-08T19:50:02 < jpa-> example project sounds like cargo culting
2021-12-08T19:50:58 < jpa-> but yeah, i don't have any better guides than what google gives; reference manual does describe the watchdogs pretty clearly
2021-12-08T19:51:23 < jpa-> of note is that WWDG maximum timeout is quite short, often less than 100 ms
2021-12-08T19:51:25 < octorian> So your take is to ignore the WWDG unless you really need it for something and use the IWDG for everything?
2021-12-08T19:51:31 < jpa-> yes
2021-12-08T19:51:55 < octorian> Though thr WWDG does have the advantage that I can actually run code before a reset, which could be useful for debugging.
2021-12-08T19:53:11 < jpa-> true
2021-12-08T19:53:36 < octorian> There's another concern...  So I have a bootloader that runs right before the main firmware. It would be nice to use a watchdog to cover that too. I know the watchdog can't be stopped w/o a reset, but can it be reconfigured?  (e.g. have the bootloader start it with its settings, then have the main firmware reconfigure it with its settings, since they could someday differ)
2021-12-08T19:53:53 < fenugrec> also you can only trust your code self-monitoring (including *WDG) to some extent... critical stuff will probably want an external mechanism for monitoring
2021-12-08T19:54:27 < fenugrec> yes of course you can reconfigure the WDG, it's not like the config is burned in flash
2021-12-08T19:54:35 < jpa-> octorian: AFAIK no; but you can always have a software pre-scaler if you need a longer watchdog period
2021-12-08T19:55:11 < jpa-> or hmm, looks like you can change the period on some devices
2021-12-08T19:56:02 < Steffann> ok, aisler with shipping would be like 30 euro cheaper qyx, i can live with paying too much once :P
2021-12-08T19:56:04 < fenugrec> F0 IWDG at least has Prescale and Reload registers. But the RM for your mcu will know
2021-12-08T20:01:24 < octorian> Right now I'm thinking maybe start the IWDG in the bootloader (maybe reconfig in the firmware, even if its essentially a no-op), and have the bootloader only rely on that.  Then in the main firmware, I'll either use the IWDG or both, depending on how I want to hook things together.
2021-12-08T20:01:48 < octorian> This isn't a safety critical thing.  I just don't want "spurious events" to make the device lock up.
2021-12-08T20:02:30 < octorian> (the period I use in the bootloader can be rather long)
2021-12-08T20:03:50 < octorian> (the activities likely to fail there involve USB or flash programming, where it doesn't need to be user-invisible.  I just don't want the user staring at it for 2 minutes wondering why nothing is happening)
2021-12-08T20:04:45 < jpa-> often a watchdog is just a way to turn a crash into a reset loop
2021-12-08T20:07:06 < octorian> It'll be nice once I move from my current MCU to my "pre-production" MCU and can bump my bootloader size from 16kb to 32kb.  I got a fair bit of stuff to fit, but there's not much more space.
2021-12-08T20:07:48 < octorian> (though the main driver for this MCU switch is really just because I wanted something where Mouser would admit to a ship date, rather than just admit they had a bunch on order, so we'll see what actually happens)
2021-12-08T20:20:43 < fenugrec> don't put too much faith in mouser ship dates esp. for stm32 stuff hehe
2021-12-08T20:22:42 < octorian> I can see it slipping.  Its just that they actually admitted to one for this part, whereas they haven't for anything else.
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2021-12-08T20:30:15 < qyx> Steffann: did you add the stencil too?
2021-12-08T20:30:42 < Xogium> erk why bad luck always happen to me ?
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2021-12-08T20:31:17 < Xogium> I killed the uart of my devel stm32mp1 board by connecting tx pin to gnd
2021-12-08T20:31:44 < Xogium> the labelling I used to identify the wires slipped and got stuck on the gnd wire, not the tx wire
2021-12-08T20:33:00 < PaulFertser> Sure it's killed? I think I often saw GPIOs survining shorting to GND.
2021-12-08T20:33:17 < catphish> oops! i'm actually surprised, GPIOs are usually pretty tough
2021-12-08T20:35:53 < Xogium> well… not too sure…
2021-12-08T20:36:02 < Xogium> but it smells like burnt electronic
2021-12-08T20:36:25 < catphish> wow
2021-12-08T20:37:40 < Xogium> let me try
2021-12-08T20:39:24 < Xogium> yeah its… I dunno if I toasted the board or the cable actually… rx and gnd both seem to be ok but tx is, well… not going through
2021-12-08T20:43:15 < Steffann> yeah, qyx. but i just now remembered i need a 0.8mm pcb.
2021-12-08T20:43:51 < Steffann> so aisler is not useful
2021-12-08T20:45:13 < Xogium> well lets try the cable on another board then
2021-12-08T20:48:25 < Xogium> hmm yeah its the cable I fucked up
2021-12-08T20:48:39 < Xogium> at least its not the board but erk, how the hell did I even do that lol
2021-12-08T20:50:11 < catphish> once again, ICs prove to be weirdly indestructible
2021-12-08T20:52:03 < PaulFertser> catphish: I once got ~14 V into atmega ADC. Only that single input got destroyed, all other parts of the MCU still running fine.
2021-12-08T20:52:25 < Xogium> woah
2021-12-08T20:52:55 < PaulFertser> Another was ~54 V into USB controller integrated in "southbridge" on a regular PC motherboard. Just the USB stopped working there.
2021-12-08T20:53:04 < Xogium> holy
2021-12-08T20:53:29 < catphish> i actually did damage an STM32 last year, i put 20kV somewhere, it still works, but some of the inputs don't give the expected values any more
2021-12-08T20:53:38 < PaulFertser> :)
2021-12-08T20:56:21 < Xogium> but wait a second, if I did toast the cable, doesn't it mean I toasted an IC somewhere
2021-12-08T20:56:28 < Xogium> or well, tx on that cable
2021-12-08T20:56:57 < PaulFertser> Toasting a cable with a GPIO pin is unlikely. Probably you connected Vcc to GND somehow.
2021-12-08T21:01:43 < fenugrec> it's doable - I think I have an F042 here  with a dead SWD pin
2021-12-08T21:02:54 < fenugrec> in the current market I could probably even sell it 10% as-is
2021-12-08T21:02:57 < fenugrec> *10$
2021-12-08T21:03:27 < Steffann> Yeah, arduino folk will buy, they dont use debuggers
2021-12-08T21:03:28 < rajkosto> fenugrec, i have a f401 where the swd doesnt work maybe same thing ?
2021-12-08T21:03:48 < fenugrec> hahaha
2021-12-08T21:03:52 < rajkosto> i got it that way from aliexpress so
2021-12-08T21:03:57 < rajkosto> maybe its already happening
2021-12-08T21:04:18 < fenugrec> rajkosto, dunno, on the scope I could see the voltages on SWD were weird, not going all the way to VCC and GND
2021-12-08T21:04:34 < rajkosto> it was on a board that has the swd stuff exposed and it just doesnt work
2021-12-08T21:04:37 < fenugrec> but there was some "trauma" that caused this (I forget the details), it worked before
2021-12-08T21:04:47 < rajkosto> can program it via CDC etc just fine
2021-12-08T21:05:04 < rajkosto> i thought my st link brokey but it works fine on other boards
2021-12-08T21:05:28 < PaulFertser> rajkosto: btw, you were asking about SD firmware updaters.
2021-12-08T21:06:00 < rajkosto> i was asking about changing capacity on fake microsd via vendor command instead of the more common and ez partitioning
2021-12-08T21:06:40 < rajkosto> pretty sure thats how they do it cuz they can do it on the spot when they sell you them
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2021-12-08T21:13:39 < kakium69> how many gigs those fakes have anyway?
2021-12-08T21:13:44 < kakium69> like 1?
2021-12-08T21:33:03 < PaulFertser> Yes. I can't answer this question but related to that are programs to talk to controller of USB mass storage devices and some SSDs, plenty of them on https://www.usbdev.ru/ and https://flashboot.ru/ . No idea why I could find only russian sites with that.
2021-12-08T21:45:03 < ventYl> because only russians would explore such cumbersome area? :)
2021-12-08T21:45:11 < ventYl> you know, long, cold winters 'n' stuff
2021-12-08T21:46:17 < Xogium> mmh
2021-12-08T21:46:54 < Xogium> kind of wish I could read a pinout heh
2021-12-08T21:47:40 < Xogium> the only reason why I can hook up a 5v fan to the stm32mp1 board is because someone explained to me that I could use pin 4 and 6 and pointed to them being on the outer row
2021-12-08T21:48:17 < PaulFertser> But you can ask here with a link to the doc
2021-12-08T21:48:29 < Xogium> yeah
2021-12-08T21:49:02 < Xogium> I know and that's awesome of you guys. I just wish I could be less dependent on others for things that seem so basic
2021-12-08T21:49:29 < PaulFertser> And also you can have something like a lone jumper wire, attach it to certain pin, make a photo, paste it here and people will tell you what pin it's attached to.
2021-12-08T21:52:37 < Xogium> yeah ? Sounds nice
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2021-12-08T22:06:26 < Mangy_Dog> https://youtu.be/4kC63O7zNdg
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2021-12-08T22:14:07 < kakium69> you real youtuber?
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2021-12-08T22:14:56 < kakium69> musics, narration etc. this is legit stuff
2021-12-08T22:16:17 < Mangy_Dog> :p
2021-12-08T22:16:39 < PaulFertser> Mangy_Dog: congratulations with finishing* the project!
2021-12-08T22:16:45 < Mangy_Dog> :D
2021-12-08T22:16:51 < Mangy_Dog> yeah its finished* 
2021-12-08T22:16:57 < Mangy_Dog> already working on 2.5
2021-12-08T22:17:00 < Mangy_Dog> :p
2021-12-08T22:17:10 < Mangy_Dog> will go more into that in part 2
2021-12-08T22:20:24 < PaulFertser> Mangy_Dog: what I particularly like about all your designs is colour work. You manage to find just the right shades and combinations, it looks amazing.
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2021-12-08T22:22:42 < Mangy_Dog> :D thankies
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2021-12-08T22:27:41 < Steffann> Yeah. And i think you have a proper youtube voice :)
2021-12-08T22:30:57 < Mangy_Dog> lol i hate my voice :p
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2021-12-08T22:33:48 < Steffanx> Everyone does.
2021-12-08T22:34:06 < Steffanx> hate their own voice i mean. Ok maybe not everyone, but. 
2021-12-08T22:42:42 < zyp> yeah, it's because you don't sound like you do to yourself when you speak
2021-12-08T22:43:14 < fenugrec> haha now when I read a line tagged Mangy_Dog my brain will read it as a UK bloke
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2021-12-08T22:43:44 < Mangy_Dog> lol
2021-12-08T22:43:52 < Mangy_Dog> fair :)
2021-12-08T22:45:01 < fenugrec> joking aside, it certainly looks the part
2021-12-08T22:47:30 < Mangy_Dog> thankies :) its been an unending nightmare :p
2021-12-08T22:48:21 < zyp> fun hinge design
2021-12-08T22:49:17 < zyp> I'd probably just go for a small flat flex cable around one of the sections and painted to camouflage it
2021-12-08T22:50:05 < Mangy_Dog> i had considdered it when i made the first one
2021-12-08T22:50:09 < fenugrec> or go nuts and do a slipring contact design, no wires
2021-12-08T22:50:10 < Mangy_Dog> but it would break the look
2021-12-08T22:50:19 < Mangy_Dog> tbh yeah thats another option
2021-12-08T22:50:24 < Mangy_Dog> use noaml brass hinges for power
2021-12-08T22:50:28 < Mangy_Dog> and RF the serial some how
2021-12-08T22:50:54 < fenugrec> IR ?
2021-12-08T22:51:17 < Mangy_Dog> too slow i think
2021-12-08T22:52:31 < zyp> or just transformer couple the two halves :)
2021-12-08T22:53:00 < Mangy_Dog> hmm
2021-12-08T22:53:07 < Mangy_Dog> coil transmission
2021-12-08T22:53:16 < Mangy_Dog> i dont know enough about that to know what would work
2021-12-08T22:53:21 < Mangy_Dog> how big it needs to be
2021-12-08T22:53:30 < Mangy_Dog> or what the range would be
2021-12-08T22:53:32 < zyp> yeah, I think area would be an issue
2021-12-08T22:53:37 < Mangy_Dog> and if it can pass through resin
2021-12-08T22:53:48 < zyp> that wouldn't be a problem
2021-12-08T22:54:07 < fenugrec> heh, wifi - two esp32s
2021-12-08T22:54:51 < Mangy_Dog> over kill and too power hungry
2021-12-08T22:56:23 < Mangy_Dog> tbh with the new tweak design im kinda looking for more ways to reduce power
2021-12-08T22:58:58 < fenugrec> sliprings then P)
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--- Day changed Thu Dec 09 2021
2021-12-09T00:35:41 < karlp> octorian: I turn on the iwdg in my bootloader and speed it up on entry to my app, works good.
2021-12-09T00:36:05 < karlp> wwdg is if you find the windowing useful, if that doesn't immediately sound usefully relevant to your taskset, yes, just ignore it...
2021-12-09T00:49:46 < karlp> Mangy_Dog: is there just "one" resin? I thought you could do a few things with resin, or is it really just versions of the same thing, compred to filament diversity?
2021-12-09T00:50:06 < Mangy_Dog> some resins are stronger
2021-12-09T00:50:19 < Mangy_Dog> but theyre hard to find in the UK and are usually very expensive
2021-12-09T00:50:31 < Mangy_Dog> but nothing close to true ABS plastic
2021-12-09T00:50:37 < Mangy_Dog> in the end all UV resins are acrylic base
2021-12-09T00:51:12 < Mangy_Dog> my current goto is elegoos ABS like resin... Which is stronger than the resin i used in the V12 hinge
2021-12-09T00:51:16 < Mangy_Dog> but still wouldnt trust it
2021-12-09T00:51:49 < Mangy_Dog> v12-v1
2021-12-09T00:51:57 < karlp> I'm currently reassuing myself I should just buy printing services when/if I need it,but I'd been looking at a resin/sla printer, not a filament printer.
2021-12-09T00:52:14 < Mangy_Dog> if you make stuff and want detail
2021-12-09T00:52:16 < Mangy_Dog> honestly
2021-12-09T00:52:24 < Mangy_Dog> prep yourself for it but having a resin printer on hand is useful
2021-12-09T00:52:34 < Mangy_Dog> just dont expect the strongest parts
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2021-12-09T00:57:21 < karlp> holy shit you put a lot of pcbs into that project.
2021-12-09T00:57:33 < karlp> I'm looking at three for a current thing, and already annoys me :)
2021-12-09T00:57:40 < karlp> I'm curious whether we'll end up with 4.
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2021-12-09T02:06:16 < octorian> karlp, I kinda like the idea of having a "monitor task" that can essentially aggregate "kicks" from other tasks.  But for the first pass, I might just kick it in my main task's main loop, and anywhere else I know I'll be kept out of that loop for a while.
2021-12-09T02:06:26 < octorian> But yeah, IWDG for now is probably good enough.
2021-12-09T02:06:52 < octorian> Though I do like being able to actually hook behavior to a WWDG reset. even if that might not be strictly necessary.
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2021-12-09T03:43:26 < kakium69> Intel might have now fixed dwm.exe memory leak in UHD graphics driver :o
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2021-12-09T08:38:00 < emeb_mac>  lol @ ppl complaining about the Finnish PM partying until 4AM
2021-12-09T08:38:19 < emeb_mac> probably just jealous at her youthful stamina
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2021-12-09T08:42:31 < jpa-> part of the scandal is that she only had two mobile phones with her instead of the mandated three mobile phones
2021-12-09T08:42:37 < jpa-> welcome to land of nokia
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2021-12-09T09:31:34 < ventYl> mandated three mobile phones?
2021-12-09T09:31:35 < ventYl> er?
2021-12-09T09:31:39 < ventYl> JK?
2021-12-09T09:36:36 < jpa-> personal phone, parliament phone, prime minister phone
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2021-12-09T10:18:05 < ventYl> ah
2021-12-09T10:18:38 < ventYl> mobile phones, finnish 2nd largest export article
2021-12-09T10:18:45 < ventYl> coming right after metal music
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2021-12-09T11:23:47 < karlp> octorian: you want to be careful you don't have all your tasks dead, but your monitoring task happily "monitoring"
2021-12-09T11:24:03 < karlp> it's fairly easy to both overthink and underdeliver with a watchdog.
2021-12-09T11:24:49 < karlp> if you can, consider if you have a method of collecting metrics on it too, (I read the cpu status register for reset reason, and count them up there in some shared uninitialized memory) 
2021-12-09T11:25:15 < karlp> as a watchdog reset is ~99.99% a latent software bug you probably want to know about, even if it recovers nicely.
2021-12-09T11:26:18 < karlp> if you want a pre-timeout event, you can just use a timer for it yourself, 
2021-12-09T11:26:43 < karlp> you would lose the independent clock domain that the iwdg gives you, but it might be sufficient anyway, if you just want to get a pre-alert
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2021-12-09T17:40:28 < mawk> I bought a 56MP scanner for the negatives
2021-12-09T17:40:36 < mawk> it better be high quality this time
2021-12-09T17:41:07 < mawk> 56MP over a 675×35mm surface is quite high quality
2021-12-09T17:41:16 < mawk> but most important is the color rendition
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2021-12-09T18:01:27 < octorian> karlp, I think another concern is that most of my tasks tend to spend most of their time blocked on a queue.  I guess there's always having the block timeout, kick, and reblock.  Not sure if that's the best approach, or if there are better patterns.
2021-12-09T18:03:57 < karlp> the reason you're not getting any "do this" answers is because it's so intrinsically application specific, 
2021-12-09T18:04:08 < karlp> _when_ are you sure that you're still alive?
2021-12-09T18:04:16 < karlp> if your task times out, is that a success?
2021-12-09T18:04:46 < karlp> maybe not, but is it a _failure_ either?
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2021-12-09T19:12:36 < qyx> the other reason is because nobody does it because yolo
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2021-12-09T22:39:38 < ventYl> nobody does it because nobody is hard-RT enough
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2021-12-09T22:51:43 < zyp> octorian, the monitor task can be smarter than just a software watchdog, you know
2021-12-09T22:52:59 < zyp> if you've got queue-fed tasks, the monitor task could monitor the queue states to ensure they are not filling up
2021-12-09T22:53:05 < josuah> is "monitor task" another name for "scheduler"?
2021-12-09T22:53:37 < zyp> no, a monitor task is a task that's monitoring the system to ensure it's behaving properly
2021-12-09T22:53:50 < josuah> ah right, thanks
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2021-12-09T23:02:30 < ventYl> you can have task, which monitors aspects of system and only if everything is fine, then triggers watchdog
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2021-12-09T23:22:18 < zyp> yes
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2021-12-09T23:48:56 < qyx> Steffanx: ok I didn't know aisler is *that* cheap now
2021-12-09T23:50:02 < qyx> no point to order at jlcpcb anymore
2021-12-09T23:53:13 < kakium69> the fuq
2021-12-09T23:53:21 < kakium69> I just joined the party
2021-12-09T23:53:54 < kakium69> I registered and used keepass to generate password
2021-12-09T23:54:35 < kakium69> how cheap?
2021-12-09T23:54:43 < zyp> now you got a well kept ass?
2021-12-09T23:55:16 < kakium69> ass is safu
2021-12-09T23:56:32 < qyx> 13 eurobucks for three 4L boards incl. shipping
2021-12-09T23:56:41 < qyx> it was ~35e last time I ordered
2021-12-09T23:56:42 < zyp> what specs?
2021-12-09T23:56:57 < zyp> jlc got pretty decent 4L specs
2021-12-09T23:57:11 < qyx> 0.15/0.15, 0.3 drill, enig
2021-12-09T23:57:24 < qyx> yes but not for enig, it adds ~15
2021-12-09T23:57:31 < qyx> also shipping is not free at jlc
2021-12-09T23:57:37 < qyx> specs are ok
2021-12-09T23:58:10 < zyp> right, jlc is 0.09/0.09, 0.2 drill
2021-12-09T23:59:24 < qyx> oh my board was 0.15, idk what aisler allows
--- Day changed Fri Dec 10 2021
2021-12-10T00:00:14 < qyx> just checked, they allow 0.125/0.125, 0.2 drill
2021-12-10T00:00:34 < zyp> ah, that's decent
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2021-12-10T00:23:53 < Steffanx> And only 1.6mm I needed 0.8mm 
2021-12-10T00:24:15 < Steffanx> Board thickness that is (obviously?)
2021-12-10T00:24:34 < zyp> not dick size?
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2021-12-10T00:25:15 < Steffanx> Maybe
2021-12-10T00:25:41 < Steffanx> But for that see my onlyfans page
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2021-12-10T01:44:55 < mawk> https://i.imgur.com/3T01Zjn.jpeg
2021-12-10T01:45:05 < mawk> I took a pic of negative with my phone
2021-12-10T01:45:18 < mawk> and tickled the colors a bit
2021-12-10T01:45:49 < mawk> I will patent this technology QuickScan™
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2021-12-10T02:24:02 < kakium69> 0.15 0.15 0.3 is fine
2021-12-10T02:24:22 < kakium69> unless you bga
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2021-12-10T02:43:37 < kakium69> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYo90vqzfLI chill films for chill
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2021-12-10T12:46:54 < steve_> hey dongs
2021-12-10T12:52:48 < PaulFertser> dongs is not here
2021-12-10T12:53:34 < catphish> what happened to dongs? :'(
2021-12-10T12:53:56 < PaulFertser> Guess got bored with IRC. Some say he switched to Telegram.
2021-12-10T13:05:28 < catphish> i've never even used telegram, i though discord was where the cool kids went now
2021-12-10T13:12:17 < mawk> using my smartphone to scan a negative: https://i.imgur.com/3T01Zjn.jpeg
2021-12-10T13:12:26 < mawk> and using a real scanner I just bought: https://i.imgur.com/xLOK1Dw.jpeg
2021-12-10T13:18:53 < jpa-> the first one looks more authentic
2021-12-10T13:30:23 < catphish> hard to say which is better, the scanner seems to have missed the metadata
2021-12-10T13:30:32 < catphish> so i'd stick with the smartphone i guess
2021-12-10T13:55:32 < ventYl> mawk: have you scanned that photo via smartphone using instagram with some filter turned on?
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2021-12-10T14:47:38 < mawk> no ventYl why
2021-12-10T14:48:59 < mawk> I took the picture then inverted colors in photoshop
2021-12-10T14:49:15 < mawk> and played with contrast and hue and exposure and whatever until I can discernate the colors
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2021-12-10T15:04:50 < karlp> my board is 0.1/0.1 with 0.2 drills, on a 2.5mm pcb... aisler don't work for that :)
2021-12-10T15:07:34 < zyp> why so fat?
2021-12-10T15:44:45 < karlp> science :)
2021-12-10T15:45:57 < karlp> h term here basically: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/FHGdr.png
2021-12-10T15:47:21 < karlp> 2.5mm was the thickest I could get made with 0.2mm drills
2021-12-10T15:47:46 < karlp> and drill size determins the n term, effectively..
2021-12-10T15:48:18 < fenugrec> they're going to have great yields drilling 0.2 through 2.5mm heh
2021-12-10T15:48:25 < karlp> not my concern...
2021-12-10T15:48:30 < karlp> they quote the price on it..
2021-12-10T15:48:46 < karlp> and usre, it costs more than 1.6mm, but stil quite reasonable.
2021-12-10T15:49:21 < karlp> I asked for 3mm initially, which their ordering frontend let me do, but they got back and were like, "nah, not with 0.2mm drills buddy"
2021-12-10T15:49:38 < karlp> (this was nextpcb.com)
2021-12-10T15:50:01 < fenugrec> yea
2021-12-10T15:50:20 < fenugrec> good luck landing in the middle of a 0.4mm via on the other side of a 2.5mm board
2021-12-10T15:50:24 < fenugrec> *3mm board
2021-12-10T15:50:37 < karlp> I got evals done on more "traditional" specced pcbs, and it works too, just a tradeoff of sensitiviy vs pcbcost
2021-12-10T15:50:55 < karlp> and honestly, pcb cost is ~zero compared to what traditional sensors would hav ecost..
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2021-12-10T16:28:12 < zyp> are you making your own strain gauges or something?
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2021-12-10T17:25:07 < qyx> karlp: oh and what about more common-thickness PCBs glued together?
2021-12-10T17:25:36 < qyx> must be the coil wired in one direction/one layer only?
2021-12-10T17:26:02 < qyx> cannot you go forth with one ocb and then back with a second one etc.
2021-12-10T17:31:54 < qyx> oh wait what I understand how
2021-12-10T17:32:07 < qyx> the problem here is not the number of turns but the turn area
2021-12-10T17:33:28 < qyx> but hey there is also a 'n' here, so you can increase number of turns instead stacking multiple PCBs
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2021-12-10T17:54:16 < steve_> may the spirit of the dong be with you
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2021-12-10T18:02:43 < kakium69> invite dongs
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2021-12-10T18:43:14 < emeb> did dongs ragequit during the libera.chat transition?
2021-12-10T18:44:12 < Xogium> was about that time wasn't it ? Seem to remember
2021-12-10T18:44:42 < PaulFertser> emeb: no, long before that
2021-12-10T18:48:51 < karlp> qyx: absolutely, but the assmebly process of stacaking also needs to be considere.d
2021-12-10T18:49:00 < emeb> PaulFertser: lol - shows how much attn I've been paying here for a long time.
2021-12-10T18:49:06 < karlp> I do have some thinner ones I experimented with stacking 
2021-12-10T18:49:15 < karlp> it totalyl works, and some of the early patents are on exactly that.
2021-12-10T18:50:11 < karlp> but yes, turn area is the thing, so 2x1.6mm pcbs with 2*n turns is actually the same as 1x3.2mm pcb with n turns, and less assembly fucking
2021-12-10T18:50:25 < qyx> yeah
2021-12-10T18:50:34 < mawk> PaulFertser: he was still idling though no?
2021-12-10T18:50:38 < mawk> just not responding
2021-12-10T18:51:08 < karlp> this is one of the earlier ones: https://patents.google.com/patent/US6313623B1/en
2021-12-10T18:52:03 < qyx> this isn't your patent, is it?
2021-12-10T18:52:15 < karlp> no...
2021-12-10T18:52:28 < karlp> we've filed a couple, but no.
2021-12-10T18:52:35 < qyx> oh i had he impression you want to patent it :P
2021-12-10T18:52:41 < qyx> *the
2021-12-10T18:52:59 < karlp> nah, there's a bunch of papers on it these days, it's probably actually a patent mess
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2021-12-10T19:38:46 < jpa-> that's a very substantial abstract in that patent
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2021-12-10T20:39:04 < qyx> yes I lold at that one
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2021-12-10T22:13:33 < kakium69> hello ##patent32
2021-12-10T22:33:15 < Steffanx> Gooday mr kakium69.
2021-12-10T22:33:25 < Steffanx> hows jlc progressing?
2021-12-10T22:33:31 < kakium69> morgon
2021-12-10T22:33:45 < kakium69> good
2021-12-10T23:13:09 < Steffanx> Good
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2021-12-10T23:59:01 < kakium69> good
--- Day changed Sat Dec 11 2021
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2021-12-11T02:33:42 < HelloShitty> hello
2021-12-11T02:35:45 < HelloShitty> When the rf of an stm32 chip describes like 5 alternate functions of some pin, should we assume that they are by order, considering I'm using libopencm3 libraires? So, when I use the following macro "GPIO_AF1", I'm saying I want to use the 1st alternate function described in the rf, and so on?
2021-12-11T02:37:19 < HelloShitty> For instance, in my case, I'm sing an STM32L412CB, LQFP48 packaging, and rm says that PA10 alternate functions are: TIM1_CH2, I2C1_SCL, USART1_TX, TIM15_BKIN, EVENTOUT
2021-12-11T02:37:23 < qyx> what is RF?
2021-12-11T02:37:38 < HelloShitty> I meant rm, reference manual, sorry
2021-12-11T02:37:46 < qyx> do you mean datasheet? that's where alternate functions are listed
2021-12-11T02:37:49 < qyx> also, no
2021-12-11T02:38:04 < HelloShitty> So, when I use GPIO_AF1, means I'm using TIM1_CH3 ?
2021-12-11T02:38:15 < HelloShitty> yes, datasheet, it's late and I'm already tired
2021-12-11T02:38:28 < fenugrec> datasheet != RM
2021-12-11T02:38:40 < qyx> if the table in the datasheet says AF7, you will use GPIO_AF7
2021-12-11T02:38:42 < HelloShitty> yes, I said I am sorry, I meant datasheet
2021-12-11T02:38:48 < fenugrec> unforgiveable
2021-12-11T02:39:02 < qyx> which doesn't mean it is 7th in the order
2021-12-11T02:39:27 < qyx> previous may have been skipped
2021-12-11T02:39:32 < HelloShitty> the datasheet says what I typed here in caps
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2021-12-11T02:39:50 < HelloShitty> AF thing is a libopencm3 thing
2021-12-11T02:39:54 < HelloShitty> I guess
2021-12-11T02:39:56 < qyx> no
2021-12-11T02:40:06 < qyx> you are looking at the wrong table
2021-12-11T02:40:16 < qyx> yes, the pin table *lists* AF
2021-12-11T02:40:26 < qyx> but doesn't assign them to AF numbers
2021-12-11T02:40:36 < qyx> after the pin table there is an AF tabnle
2021-12-11T02:40:41 < HelloShitty> I'm looking to pin descriptions table
2021-12-11T02:40:44 < HelloShitty> ah ok
2021-12-11T02:40:48 < HelloShitty> let me take a look
2021-12-11T02:40:53 < HelloShitty> I'm learning by the way
2021-12-11T02:40:59 < HelloShitty> So, this is a huge learning curve
2021-12-11T02:41:09 < qyx> no problem
2021-12-11T02:41:38 < HelloShitty> indeed,
2021-12-11T02:41:50 < HelloShitty> so, I was correct using AF1 for TIM1_CH3
2021-12-11T02:42:35 < qyx> actually I never bothered to check if the AF listed in the pin table match those in the AF tabnle
2021-12-11T02:42:45 < HelloShitty> But I think I'll change to some basic timer instead of an Avanced timer
2021-12-11T02:43:15 < HelloShitty> s/Avanced/Advanced
2021-12-11T02:43:17 < qyx> it depends on your requirements
2021-12-11T02:43:33 < qyx> power wise, tim1/tim8 are more hungry
2021-12-11T02:43:35 < HelloShitty> My goal was, at a 1st stafe, to get this working
2021-12-11T02:43:36 < HelloShitty> lol
2021-12-11T02:43:39 < qyx> 32 bit timers even more
2021-12-11T02:43:52 < qyx> that is, tim2 and tim5
2021-12-11T02:44:05 < HelloShitty> But I'm still not sure if I have the clocks correctly set yet
2021-12-11T02:44:06 < qyx> if you want basic timers, start with tim3/4
2021-12-11T02:44:13 < HelloShitty> ok
2021-12-11T02:44:31 < qyx> there are full examples in libopencm3-examples
2021-12-11T02:45:06 < HelloShitty> yes, but if I don't understand each line of configuration, I won't be able to adddapt to my needs
2021-12-11T02:45:15 < HelloShitty> So, I was trying to do it on my own
2021-12-11T02:45:32 < HelloShitty> but there are so many variables that I get lost and confused easily
2021-12-11T02:45:43 < qyx> if you don't understand, read the timer chapters in the RM
2021-12-11T02:45:49 < HelloShitty> btw, I'm using opencd, a jlink clone and gdb
2021-12-11T02:45:58 < qyx> that's fine
2021-12-11T02:46:00 < HelloShitty> I am
2021-12-11T02:46:22 < qyx> we can help you but you must have at least a clue what is what
2021-12-11T02:46:28 < HelloShitty> I have actually 5 PDFs open. 4 are RM alone and the other one is datasheet at pin out description
2021-12-11T02:46:57 < HelloShitty> yes, I understand
2021-12-11T02:47:16 < HelloShitty> Sometimes is that I'm not sure if my understanding of what I'm reading, is correct or not
2021-12-11T02:47:26 < qyx> back to plumbing work now
2021-12-11T02:47:35 < HelloShitty> :)
2021-12-11T02:47:45 < HelloShitty> I'm going to have some rest
2021-12-11T02:47:55 < kakium69> then you need to test your hypothesis HelloShitty
2021-12-11T02:48:00 < HelloShitty> thanks qyx and fenugrec 
2021-12-11T02:48:14 < qyx> fresh head brings innovations
2021-12-11T02:48:22 < qyx> is that tru kakium69 
2021-12-11T02:48:31 < HelloShitty> I have some code with some settings for the clock peripherals and some lines for timer configuration too
2021-12-11T02:48:59 < HelloShitty> but I started this quite some time ago and there are some things that I forgot
2021-12-11T02:49:06 < HelloShitty> I have to go through some of them again
2021-12-11T02:49:50 < HelloShitty> I have a very similar code to this one: https://libopencm3.org/docs/latest/stm32l4/html/group__timer__file.html
2021-12-11T02:50:05 < HelloShitty> for the Example: Timer 1 with PWM output, no clock divide and centre alignment.
2021-12-11T02:51:37 < HelloShitty> tomorrow I'll dig a little bit deeper to see why this is not showing anything on my scope
2021-12-11T02:52:42 < HelloShitty> There are other weird things going one that I have no idea why they happen
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2021-12-11T02:53:39 < HelloShitty> but for instance, I have all VDD and VSS pins connected to +3.3V and GND line (powered by an external power supply) and then I have the jlink clone connected to the chip and sharing the GND line, obviously
2021-12-11T02:54:09 < HelloShitty> Somehow, my jlink adapter is feeding the +3.3v to the chip at the same time as the external power supply
2021-12-11T02:54:25 < kakium69> hmm
2021-12-11T02:54:32 < HelloShitty> because if I power off the power supply, openocd server keeps up and running
2021-12-11T02:54:42 < HelloShitty> as if I haven't turned doff the power supply
2021-12-11T02:54:54 < kakium69> Vtarget pin never should have supply
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2021-12-11T02:55:05 < kakium69> IIRC
2021-12-11T02:55:11 < HelloShitty> yeah
2021-12-11T02:55:24 < HelloShitty> I have to check it again tomorrow
2021-12-11T02:55:31 < HelloShitty> I'm deadd tired
2021-12-11T02:55:36 < kakium69> sleep now
2021-12-11T02:55:44 < HelloShitty> it's 1 am here and I'm up since 6:20am
2021-12-11T02:56:13 < HelloShitty> and tomorrow I have to be up again before 9:0am
2021-12-11T02:56:26 < HelloShitty> ok, thanks kakium69 . Going to sleep now
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2021-12-11T05:04:37 < qyx> 4am is the right time for breakfast
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2021-12-11T05:35:17 < fenugrec> ".eh_frame referenced in section `.text.... of v6-m/nofp/crtbegin.o : defined in discarded section '.eh_frame' of crtbegin.o
2021-12-11T05:36:14 < fenugrec> why do I even have crtbegin.o, I'm building with nano.specs and nosys.specs
2021-12-11T05:43:43 < fenugrec> and no C++ code; shouldn't be any constructors...
2021-12-11T05:46:04 < qyx> I would say it is broken
2021-12-11T05:46:44 < fenugrec> most definitely
2021-12-11T05:50:42 < fenugrec> time to paste random .ld shit from the internet
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2021-12-11T14:37:52 < ventYl> fenugrec: crtbegin.o AFAIK contains some generic stuff, such as "zero out .bss" 'n' stuff
2021-12-11T14:38:15 < ventYl> .eh_frame is afaik referenced from text, if you use semihosting
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2021-12-11T15:43:11 < fenugrec> ventYl, thanks, I don't use semihosting here, unless libopencm3 is doing that since recently. I do have a few things to check on this unholy combination of makefiles and cmake
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2021-12-11T16:21:38 < ventYl> fenugrec: you would have to enable it manually outside of locm3. hopefully I didn't fuck up anything
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2021-12-11T18:05:41 < fenugrec> hahah. ST's USB-CDC template code, receive function says "don't use DMA in here, you'll lose data". And what does their USB-CDC example project do ? HAL_UART_Transmit_DMA()... nice
2021-12-11T18:09:48 < qyx> did you find the lost data?
2021-12-11T18:10:17 < fenugrec> I can spare a few datas
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2021-12-11T18:16:30 < jadew> https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/16923295/bomb-squad-hospital-bottom-shell/
2021-12-11T18:17:44 < fenugrec> gotta be careful on those slippery floors eh
2021-12-11T18:19:19 < jadew> Police said they responded to “a report that a patient had presented with a munition in his rectum”.
2021-12-11T18:36:05 < jpa-> fenugrec: sounds weird that one couldn't use DMA for something else than USB
2021-12-11T18:36:48 < fenugrec> jpa-, the idea is that when you return from that receive handler, DMA transfer isn't finished and the source data can be overwritten on the next USB dataOut
2021-12-11T18:37:27 < qyx> so you have to block until all data is read?
2021-12-11T18:37:29 < jpa-> ah, so "don't use DMA in stupid way"
2021-12-11T18:37:52 < jpa-> block until *previous* DMA transfer is complete before overwriting it with a new one
2021-12-11T18:37:57 < fenugrec> qyx, yes, or find a way to keep NAK'ing until DMA is done
2021-12-11T18:39:00 < Xogium> hmm speaking of usb, I most probably asked this before but, any of you ever seen usb a to a but vbus-less cables ?
2021-12-11T18:39:12 < jpa-> (if there is only one buffer and it cannot be converted to double-buffer scheme, it will have to copy it though.. and at that point you might just use DMA ring buffer and block only when it is full)
2021-12-11T18:39:25 < Xogium> so like usb a male to usb a male
2021-12-11T18:39:48 < fenugrec> Xogium, that's criminal. don't let the usb police catch you doing that
2021-12-11T18:40:50 < Xogium> fenugrec: I know it is :p but I need this for using DFU on a weird board from seeed
2021-12-11T18:40:50 < emeb> I have a usb A to A that was needed for an Archos MP3 player - used for data xfer and charging though, so it has vbus.
2021-12-11T18:41:31 < Xogium> the problem is here, if I have vbus connected it will provide voltage when it shouldn't because board is already powered over barel jack or usb c
2021-12-11T18:44:22 < Xogium> I already destroyed the usb of one board that way so… I learned my lesson
2021-12-11T18:46:00 < Xogium> I mean, sure I could turn off the vbus regulator for the usb host port in the bootloader, all 2 stages of it, plus in the kernel, just to be absolutely sure it wouldn't enable it… but this is like 3 device trees to edit, and I'd rather find a cable that physically doesn't have vbus instead of always having to disable and reenable this all the time, not to mention that physically not having it available 
2021-12-11T18:46:06 < Xogium> is much safer than a software fix
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2021-12-11T20:48:08 < mawk> aeaeaeaeaea
2021-12-11T20:56:20 < fenugrec> no ligatures
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2021-12-11T21:40:41 < mawk> ææææææææ
2021-12-11T21:40:46 < mawk> better fenugrec ?
2021-12-11T21:52:53 < fenugrec> yæs
2021-12-11T21:54:24 < mouseghost> looks like swastikas
2021-12-11T21:58:15 < mawk> :( not at all
2021-12-11T21:58:24 < mawk> ad vitam æternam
2021-12-11T22:24:14 < Steffanx> yes it does, with some imagination
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2021-12-11T23:09:06 < catphish> you folks know anything about powerline green phy?
2021-12-11T23:12:20 < karlp> it's an 802.3 standard?
2021-12-11T23:12:36 < karlp> what are you really asking?
2021-12-11T23:25:53 < catphish> reasonable question
2021-12-11T23:26:36 < catphish> 1) i'm looking for an affordable way to implement it for development (qty 1) 2) i was idly wondering if anyone here had played with it
2021-12-11T23:29:09 < qyx> and what is it?
2021-12-11T23:29:40 < qyx> isn't the patented homeplug CC shit?
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2021-12-11T23:39:18 < qyx> hm no, homeplug c&c is that patented spread spectrum shit, homeplug gp is apparently "only" OFDM made of 1155 QPSK subcarriers
2021-12-11T23:40:05 < qyx> but using 1/2 turbo codes which are patented afaik
2021-12-11T23:42:26 < qyx> are we going to stm32 it?
2021-12-11T23:42:37 < qyx> but but 2-30 MHz band
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2021-12-11T23:57:35 < catphish> i believe homeplug GP is a subset of homeplug AV, except that maybe it's not quite, because it adds some specific nee features
--- Day changed Sun Dec 12 2021
2021-12-12T00:13:58 < catphish> all i really want to be able to do is communicate with a homeplug GP network
2021-12-12T00:14:05 < mouseghost> buttplug
2021-12-12T00:15:36 < catphish> /kick mouseghost (inappropriate language)
2021-12-12T00:15:45 < mouseghost> :|
2021-12-12T00:16:25 < PaulFertser> Use only proper free software with it https://buttplug.io/
2021-12-12T00:16:38 < PaulFertser> In Rust
2021-12-12T00:16:57 < catphish> that's quite amazing
2021-12-12T00:18:17 < catphish> this logo in particular https://buttplug.io/images/squidplug.png
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2021-12-12T06:27:56 < fenugrec> has anyone ever used "-fno-move-loop-invariants" on purpose on gcc-arm for cortex-m0 ?
2021-12-12T06:57:06 < emeb_mac> why would you do that?
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2021-12-12T18:23:04 < fenugrec> that's kindof my next question, I've seen that used in a project, probably copypasta'd from another Makefile, and it has the characteristic smell of premature optimization
2021-12-12T18:37:36 < zyp> that's a deoptimization though
2021-12-12T18:38:29 < zyp> maybe the optimization broke some shitty code relying on undefined behavior, and they tracked it down and turned it off rather than fixing the code
2021-12-12T18:39:56 < zyp> or maybe they ran into an actual compiler bug in the optimization step
2021-12-12T18:40:19 < zyp> I did that once, on avr32, and we also ended up tracking down which optimization caused it and turned it off
2021-12-12T18:54:01 < fenugrec> zyp, I think in certain cases it can affect compilation at -Os negatively, i.e. passing -fno-move... results in a smaller build
2021-12-12T18:54:15 < fenugrec> (just based on what I read since yesterday)
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2021-12-12T21:43:15 < karlp> you said powerline first, not homeplug, so I thought you were jsut talking about green phy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy-Efficient_Ethernet
2021-12-12T21:49:07 < Steffanx> i guess karlp is replying to something catphish said yesterday?
2021-12-12T21:49:55 < qyx> I guess the same
2021-12-12T21:54:09 < catphish> karlp: sorry, the spec is "homeplug green phy", i just used the term powerline in there for some reason
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2021-12-12T21:55:00 < catphish> i often refer to homepug as "powerline" for some reason
2021-12-12T21:55:15 < catphish> probably because https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power-line_communication
2021-12-12T21:56:13 < zyp> implementing CCS?
2021-12-12T21:56:33 < zyp> I saw some modules for that, IIRC they supported both EVSE-side and car side
2021-12-12T21:57:04 < catphish> yes for CCS
2021-12-12T21:57:44 < catphish> i believe it needs to be a homeplug green phy module, which is weird because it should be compatible with AV, but i think some of the "extra" features may be needed
2021-12-12T21:57:51 < zyp> https://in-tech-smartcharging.com/products/electric-vehicle-communication
2021-12-12T21:59:41 < catphish> zyp: interesting, hadn't seen those
2021-12-12T21:59:53 < catphish> these people sell an off the shelf kit https://zero-ev.co.uk/product/ccs-type2-fast-charging-kit/?v=79cba1185463
2021-12-12T22:00:02 < catphish> but people are interested in open source too
2021-12-12T22:00:27 < zyp> I talked to those people about the EVSE-side a couple of years ago
2021-12-12T22:01:21 < zyp> although I were interested in digital comms in AC mode, not DC, and at the time almost no cars supported that, so I dropped it
2021-12-12T22:01:38 < qyx> I think the same that GP is a subset of AV, having the same band/subcarrier OFDM allocation except it supports only QPSK
2021-12-12T22:01:46 < catphish> not many people bother with it for AC, because the simple pwm method just works
2021-12-12T22:01:53 < qyx> maybe an AV phy cannot be forced to use QPSK only
2021-12-12T22:02:21 < zyp> catphish, yeah, just very limited in what information is exchanged :)
2021-12-12T22:02:27 < qyx> and there are also turbo codes, GP supports only 1/2 rate
2021-12-12T22:02:40 < zyp> I was looking into whether I could read back SoC like DC chargers do
2021-12-12T22:02:57 < catphish> qyx: i feel like AV *should* work if programmed correctly, wonder if it's worth trying
2021-12-12T22:03:15 < qyx> I would get GP and AV and simply try
2021-12-12T22:03:24 < zyp> catphish, what are you gonna test against? :)
2021-12-12T22:03:24 < qyx> AV is available at no cost
2021-12-12T22:03:50 < catphish> there's some extra functionality that lets you ping all EVSEs and measure the response signal strength, but i'm not convinced it's needd
2021-12-12T22:04:08 < zyp> kinda hard to DIY something if you have to roll up to a commercial quick charger every time you want to test a change
2021-12-12T22:04:09 < catphish> though it might be needed to find the EVSE in the first place
2021-12-12T22:04:25 < catphish> zyp: yeah that part is mildly annoying
2021-12-12T22:04:46 < catphish> i'd have to park up at one at night and work on it
2021-12-12T22:04:55 < qyx> :D
2021-12-12T22:05:12 < catphish> well, my small town has one, and it's rarely budy
2021-12-12T22:05:14 < catphish> *busy
2021-12-12T22:05:21 < catphish> i wouldn't want to block a real EV user though
2021-12-12T22:05:43 < qyx> https://www.qualcomm.com/products/qca6410
2021-12-12T22:05:49 < qyx> AV modules have this chip
2021-12-12T22:05:57 < qyx> The QCA6410 is interoperable with all HPAV networks and HomePlug Green PHY (HPGP) networks
2021-12-12T22:06:07 < qyx> so I assume it can be configured to do GP
2021-12-12T22:06:26 < qyx> but good luck getting the datasheet/programming manual
2021-12-12T22:06:35 < catphish> qyx: i could presumably get an AV dev module and try it
2021-12-12T22:06:51 < catphish> one problem is that the spec for the EV charge protocol itself is very expensive
2021-12-12T22:06:56 < qyx> https://uk.pi-supply.com/products/lx200v20-plc-homeplug-av-power-line-module-high-speed-up-to-200mbps-with-128bit-aes-encryption-and-power-line-twisted-pair-ethernet-interface
2021-12-12T22:06:59 < qyx> ^
2021-12-12T22:07:24 < catphish> ideal
2021-12-12T22:08:00 < catphish> so, this *should* be compatible with green phy, it just won't support the green phy specific functionality
2021-12-12T22:09:28 < catphish> also, the module has MII, so i'll need a device with a MII interface
2021-12-12T22:10:02 < catphish> also, it's out of stock
2021-12-12T22:12:49 < qyx> 17 RD+(Ethernet Rx signal)
2021-12-12T22:12:51 < qyx> it has MDI
2021-12-12T22:13:11 < qyx> IP I/O: 10/100M MII (Auto MDI/MDIX)
2021-12-12T22:13:14 < qyx> thats some bullshit
2021-12-12T22:13:19 < qyx> MII doesn't have MDI/MDIX
2021-12-12T22:14:02 < catphish> lol
2021-12-12T22:14:29 < catphish> that would be kinda pointless given that it's usually hardwired to something else
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2021-12-12T22:19:09 < HelloShitty> Hello. I need help to be able to set the clock tree using libopencm3 with an stm32l412cb chip... I'm going through the funcitons of libopencm3, but I'm confused. I'm also using STM32CubeMX to help me with the dividers and multipliers
2021-12-12T22:19:26 < HelloShitty> But I'm at a point that I'm not sure which values some of the functions take
2021-12-12T22:19:27 < qyx> catphish: also IS32CG5317
2021-12-12T22:19:43 < HelloShitty> Anyone able to help me in at least 2 specific cases?
2021-12-12T22:19:45 < qyx> HelloShitty: you don't need to setup anything
2021-12-12T22:19:52 < qyx> regarding clock tree
2021-12-12T22:19:55 < qyx> to make things work
2021-12-12T22:20:13 < HelloShitty> So, how do I make 80Mhz to show up in timers?
2021-12-12T22:20:15 < qyx> ok, you need to enable clock to specific peripherals, but that's it
2021-12-12T22:20:33 < qyx> and do you have anything on your timers yet?
2021-12-12T22:20:38 < qyx> even the default 16 MHz?
2021-12-12T22:20:44 < qyx> or 8 or whatever the default clock is
2021-12-12T22:21:06 < HelloShitty> For instance, I want to setup a timer to count up for a specific amount of time
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2021-12-12T22:21:14 < HelloShitty> and when it overflows, I light up a led
2021-12-12T22:21:36 < HelloShitty> but I want to control how long until I light up the led
2021-12-12T22:21:48 < HelloShitty> this is just an example, because I want to adapt to a real case use
2021-12-12T22:21:57 < HelloShitty> No, I haven't yet
2021-12-12T22:22:11 < HelloShitty> Or better, I tried my harware with a code I found in the internet
2021-12-12T22:22:25 < qyx> if you are starting from zero, don't mess with any PLL and clock configuration, it is not needed
2021-12-12T22:22:29 < HelloShitty> and I was able to see a pin go on and off
2021-12-12T22:22:44 < qyx> when you get everything working using defaults, you can set your pll and bump your clock
2021-12-12T22:23:00 < HelloShitty> so, hardware is fine (I always suspect hardware, wiring, etc)
2021-12-12T22:23:47 < HelloShitty> ok, but still if I want to use default clocks, etc, I need to know what to set and configure and I don't know
2021-12-12T22:23:48 < qyx> you can paste your code
2021-12-12T22:24:25 < HelloShitty> well, one code, which is not working, is the one I started a few months ago, but then I end up giving up on it because I lost motivation
2021-12-12T22:24:34 < HelloShitty> Now I am trying again
2021-12-12T22:24:46 < HelloShitty> and starting a new file and forget what I had in that other file
2021-12-12T22:25:26 < qyx> we still don't know anything
2021-12-12T22:25:32 < qyx> which random code did you use to test it
2021-12-12T22:25:35 < HelloShitty> For now I just have an empty file where I started to try to use libopencm3 functions to set clock sources, etc
2021-12-12T22:25:35 < qyx> whats your new code
2021-12-12T22:25:38 < qyx> what the old one owas
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2021-12-12T22:26:25 < HelloShitty> ok, the code I used to test the harware is this at the beginning of this page:
2021-12-12T22:26:26 < HelloShitty> https://bdebyl.net/post/stm32-part0/
2021-12-12T22:26:46 < HelloShitty> but I adapted it to pull up PA10 in my chip
2021-12-12T22:26:55 < HelloShitty> I'll paste the code I adapted from that one
2021-12-12T22:28:23 < HelloShitty> https://paste.debian.net/1223164/
2021-12-12T22:28:29 < HelloShitty> This is the code I tested an worked
2021-12-12T22:28:39 < HelloShitty> I was able to catch both events on my scope
2021-12-12T22:28:49 < HelloShitty> the pin going high and going low
2021-12-12T22:29:17 < qyx> it looks like a good tutorial
2021-12-12T22:29:23 < HelloShitty> I'm not sure I want to show the code I started a few months ago with... I think I tried to take a step longer than my leg.
2021-12-12T22:29:23 < qyx> so what did not work?
2021-12-12T22:29:51 < HelloShitty> What ddidn't work from my old code?
2021-12-12T22:29:53 < catphish> qyx: thanks
2021-12-12T22:30:19 < qyx> you are saying you are trying to get timer working
2021-12-12T22:30:20 < HelloShitty> I tried to set everything from scratch but probably I'm doing things wrong (well, not probably, for sure)
2021-12-12T22:30:22 < qyx> what did you try?
2021-12-12T22:31:04 < HelloShitty> I started that a few months ago, but now I wanted to try to start all over again because as you said, maybe it's better to make it work on default values and then, improve from there
2021-12-12T22:31:25 < HelloShitty> What I tried in that code from a few months ago was to set clock sources, dividers multipliers, etc
2021-12-12T22:31:29 < HelloShitty> I'll paste the code
2021-12-12T22:31:42 < HelloShitty> but not needed to go to debug it and try to make it work
2021-12-12T22:31:48 < HelloShitty> just want to show what I tried
2021-12-12T22:32:34 < qyx> so, go and find a timer example in libopencm3 examples, make a minimal example which you think should work and then we can iteratively move on
2021-12-12T22:33:31 < HelloShitty> this was what I tried before:
2021-12-12T22:33:33 < HelloShitty> https://paste.debian.net/1223165/
2021-12-12T22:37:32 < HelloShitty> and now I was trying to start again by setting the sources for sysclk, pll and then I would go for the multipliers and dividers PLLM_M, PLL_N, PLL_R, AHB Prescaler and APB1 Prescaler
2021-12-12T22:38:57 < HelloShitty> I was reading the library docs, and I see some functions that are probably meant for these tasks, such as: rcc_set_main_pll(), rcc_set_sysclk_source()
2021-12-12T22:39:01 < HelloShitty> brb
2021-12-12T22:40:40 < karlp> HelloShitty: you want ~this https://github.com/libopencm3/libopencm3/pull/1368
2021-12-12T22:40:45 < karlp> but it still has some issues
2021-12-12T22:41:16 < karlp> l4 doesn't have the higher level helper (yet) that other families has
2021-12-12T22:41:47 < qyx> HelloShitty first needs to delete the rcc_* shit and make the timer working
2021-12-12T22:41:51 < qyx> not the other way around
2021-12-12T22:45:45 < karlp> that's certainly a decent approach, yes.
2021-12-12T22:48:16 < qyx> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/740of
2021-12-12T22:48:26 < qyx> this is hopefully all that is needed
2021-12-12T22:49:39 < HelloShitty> going to check those 2 links
2021-12-12T22:51:05 < karlp> use qyx's first :)
2021-12-12T22:51:15 < karlp> is L4 16MHZ on startup?
2021-12-12T22:51:47 < karlp> no, it's MSI at 4, thought so...
2021-12-12T22:52:00 < karlp> change line 7 to "3" instead and you're fine...
2021-12-12T22:54:08 < qyx> hm, yeah, I forgot
2021-12-12T22:54:31 < HelloShitty> ok, will try
2021-12-12T22:56:26 < HelloShitty> Where does those values come from? the 15 and the 3 ?
2021-12-12T22:56:47 < HelloShitty> an the 249
2021-12-12T22:56:53 < HelloShitty> s/an/and
2021-12-12T22:57:37 < qyx> if it runs at 4 MHz on startup, setting prescaler to 3 divides the timer clock by 4
2021-12-12T22:57:45 < qyx> if it runs at 16 MHz, 15 divides it by 16
2021-12-12T22:58:02 < qyx> 245 sets output compare to 1/4 of 999
2021-12-12T22:58:06 < qyx> it is always n-1
2021-12-12T22:58:11 < qyx> *249, sorry
2021-12-12T22:59:14 < HelloShitty> ok, and now I need to set some pin everytime the timer overflows, no?
2021-12-12T22:59:25 < HelloShitty> or how do I check this is working?
2021-12-12T22:59:50 < qyx> yeah
2021-12-12T23:00:06 < qyx> start with your file https://paste.debian.net/1223164/
2021-12-12T23:00:24 < qyx> change GPIO_MODE_OUTPUT to GPIO_MODE_AF
2021-12-12T23:00:52 < qyx> and add 	gpio_set_af(HEATER_PWM_PORT, GPIO_AF2, HEATER_PWM_PIN);
2021-12-12T23:01:04 < qyx> replace PORT, PIN with anything suitable
2021-12-12T23:01:09 < qyx> and GPIO_AF2 with the right number
2021-12-12T23:02:40 < qyx> oh which part is your stm32 exactly?
2021-12-12T23:02:42 < qyx> L412KC?
2021-12-12T23:02:53 < qyx> *KB
2021-12-12T23:03:38 < qyx> hah thats really unfortunate, I lied to you
2021-12-12T23:03:40 < qyx> it has no TIM3
2021-12-12T23:03:43 < HelloShitty> L412CB
2021-12-12T23:04:05 < qyx> so change the thing to TIM1
2021-12-12T23:04:46 < qyx> keep your setup for GPIOA, GPIO10
2021-12-12T23:04:58 < qyx> change OC1 to OC3
2021-12-12T23:05:03 < qyx> and use GPIO_AF1
2021-12-12T23:08:36 < qyx> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/7JBJT
2021-12-12T23:08:38 < qyx> this may work
2021-12-12T23:09:24 < qyx> also to blink the led slower, change line 24 from 3 to 3999, the led should blink at 1 Hz
2021-12-12T23:10:41 < HelloShitty> I was now searching for how to check for the timer overflow
2021-12-12T23:11:07 < karlp> setting an irq on the overlow is a separate branch of things...
2021-12-12T23:11:17 < qyx> you could use interrupt but thats for another lesson
2021-12-12T23:11:23 < karlp> do you want to use the hardare timers fro hardware pin pwm or for getting irqs for other reasons.
2021-12-12T23:11:48 < karlp> togglign a gpio in a timer irq is... totally functional, but generally regarded as somewhat pointless and inefficient, though I can help with your understanding...
2021-12-12T23:12:12 < qyx> you can even check the update flag in while (true) ... :>
2021-12-12T23:12:20 < HelloShitty> for now is just to understand and learn what functions I have at disposal from this library
2021-12-12T23:12:26 < HelloShitty> because I don't know most of them
2021-12-12T23:12:38 < qyx> thats fine, check the code I pasted to see if the LED toggles
2021-12-12T23:13:03 < HelloShitty> and seems that these functions we are using are a bit higher level, because they will probably call others to set an whole bunch of registers
2021-12-12T23:13:22 < HelloShitty> and looking to libopencm3 docs, I see all functions, lower and higher level ones
2021-12-12T23:13:42 < HelloShitty> and to track them all is kinda fucked up. I get lost quite easily
2021-12-12T23:14:07 < HelloShitty> and if I try to go backwords, like, pick up the higher level ones and try to track back until the lowerlevel ones, is also messed up
2021-12-12T23:14:28 < HelloShitty> but that's probably what I should do and try to see if I can follow what the datasheet says
2021-12-12T23:14:29 < karlp> you sound like you're overthinking it, but it depends what andwhy you're trying certain things :)
2021-12-12T23:14:36 < qyx> you could have tried the code during the time you are elaborating this :>
2021-12-12T23:14:52 < HelloShitty> yeah, true
2021-12-12T23:14:54 < HelloShitty> going now
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2021-12-12T23:26:25 < HelloShitty> ok, I think it's working but scope says frequency is 12.5Hz
2021-12-12T23:27:59 < HelloShitty> wait, let me fix one thing but I think it won't change nothing
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2021-12-12T23:30:12 < HelloShitty> yeah, I get a 12.5Hx frequency output at PA10
2021-12-12T23:31:05 < HelloShitty> this is how I have the code: https://paste.debian.net/1223171/
2021-12-12T23:32:58 < HelloShitty> hum, I think I'm getting an error from openocd server when I start gdb connection with the elf file
2021-12-12T23:43:56 < HelloShitty> ok, nevermind... IT worked the first time I ran the code, but now it's not working anymore. I can't see the pwm anymore on PA10
2021-12-12T23:47:51 < HelloShitty> I will try again tomorrow
2021-12-12T23:48:04 < HelloShitty> It's almost bed time. Tomorrow is work day
2021-12-12T23:48:23 < qyx> why did you change the first line
2021-12-12T23:48:42 < qyx> why do you expect    rcc_periph_clock_enable(RCC_TIM1 | RCC_GPIOA); works
2021-12-12T23:48:53 < qyx> never fucking assume anything
2021-12-12T23:50:55 < qyx> it is an enum, not a bitmask
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2021-12-13T00:01:10 < HelloShitty> hum, ok
2021-12-13T00:07:24 < HelloShitty> I plit the lines in 2 now, but I still get nothing on the scope...
2021-12-13T00:10:02 < HelloShitty> ok, now it's working again
2021-12-13T00:13:47 < qyx> what was the problem
2021-12-13T00:16:18 < HelloShitty> I don't know
2021-12-13T00:16:27 < HelloShitty> I just deleted my code and pasted yours
2021-12-13T00:16:31 < HelloShitty> :(
2021-12-13T00:17:25 < HelloShitty> The only difference was that OR which I split into 2 lines, and the 2 defines, where I used the GPIOA and GPIO10, and also I was using a function to setup the clocks and timer
2021-12-13T00:17:31 < HelloShitty> an your code is all inside main()
2021-12-13T00:18:17 < HelloShitty> but there was something else for sure. I think the hardware would only lie if it was broke or something... In this case, it seems to be perfect because I get the 1kHz and ~25% Duty Cycle
2021-12-13T00:18:50 < HelloShitty> Now I changed the 3 to a 7 and the 249 to a 499 to see if scope showed what I was expecting, and of course it did
2021-12-13T00:19:45 < HelloShitty> I'm in no position of trying to read the datasheet and the refman and try to use all the functions that libopencm3 provides. I won't get there, probably
2021-12-13T00:20:49 < HelloShitty> time to go now. Tomorrow I will try to play a bit more with this
2021-12-13T00:20:59 < HelloShitty> thanks qyx and karlp 
2021-12-13T00:21:04 < HelloShitty> see you tomorrow
2021-12-13T00:22:42 < qyx> o/
2021-12-13T00:22:43 < qyx> gn
2021-12-13T00:23:56 < qyx> what makefiles and liker scripts are you using btw?
2021-12-13T00:24:19 < qyx> you should use those recent ones from examples or blinky-led
2021-12-13T00:24:26 < qyx> and not random from the internet
2021-12-13T00:24:46 < qyx> it may be your stack is not setup properly
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2021-12-13T09:36:40 < jpa-> haha, lattice has a classic in their software download form: "I verify that I am not an employee of Cadence Design Systems, Mentor Graphics Corporation, or Synopsys, Inc."
2021-12-13T09:37:13 < qyx> wut
2021-12-13T09:37:48 < jpa-> i bet mentor graphics is trying to steal all the fancy secrets from ice40cube
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2021-12-13T09:46:02 < jpa-> meh, i guess i'm going to go with icestorm
2021-12-13T09:46:19 < jpa-> this icecube crap doesn't work when my network card is not called 'eth0'
2021-12-13T09:51:44 < jpa-> ok, created dummy 'eth0'
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2021-12-13T10:33:15 < zyp> jpa-, what are you doing?
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2021-12-13T12:11:47 < jpa-> zyp: some customer project with ICE40UL1K
2021-12-13T12:12:13 < jpa-> i think it'll be easier to just specify "build with icecube" than to try specify "build with icestorm or something"
2021-12-13T12:21:55 < zyp> ah, maybe
2021-12-13T12:22:23 < zyp> unless you just supply a makefile that calls the correct tools :p
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2021-12-13T12:35:07 < jpa-> sure, but that still needs the tools to be installed :)
2021-12-13T12:36:09 < jpa-> and while that might work out ok now, it might be a bit problematic in Ubuntu 2028.4
2021-12-13T12:40:39 < qyx> zyp: if you remember, how much current could supply that NFC "slave" (card emulation) to other circuitry?
2021-12-13T12:41:21 < qyx> is 0.5 W reasonable to expect?
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2021-12-13T12:46:12 < qyx> hm st95hf ca transmit 230 mW
2021-12-13T12:52:53 < qyx> another paper claims it is usually possible to harvest about 10 mW of power in the 13.56 MHz band
2021-12-13T12:56:12 < karlp> I just saw something on eetimes or blah that ws talking about 1W!
2021-12-13T12:56:18 < karlp> nearly spat my coffee out.
2021-12-13T12:57:06 < karlp> https://www.eenewspower.com/news/1356mhz-wireless-power-supply-chipset-provides-1w-smart-glasses
2021-12-13T13:01:25 < qyx> great
2021-12-13T13:02:05 < qyx> I could probably reinvent something in the 125 kHz band with a massive pcb antenna
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2021-12-13T14:04:35 < zyp> are you reinventing qi charging?
2021-12-13T14:18:28 < qyx> does qi allow data transfer?
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2021-12-13T14:24:58 < ventYl> morse code?
2021-12-13T14:26:40 < qyx> more like DCC over inductive coupling
2021-12-13T14:28:26 < ventYl> will you send XML over it?
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2021-12-13T17:35:33 < karlp> yay, iec 60715 for din rails doesn't make any claims about a "module" width.  only specifies the rail..
2021-12-13T17:35:40 < karlp> so much for "recheck first sources"
2021-12-13T17:35:43  * karlp copies copies
2021-12-13T17:37:25 < zyp> module width is not standardized?
2021-12-13T17:38:41 < zyp> jpa-, good luck installing icecube on 2028.4 then :)
2021-12-13T17:39:06 < jpa-> :)
2021-12-13T17:43:55 < zyp> to be fair, I expect people who actually need install instructions to use windows :p
2021-12-13T17:45:05 < jpa-> true :)
2021-12-13T17:53:13 < karlp> zyp: not in iec60715 2003 at least, I don't have a copy of the 2017 version, 
2021-12-13T17:53:48 < karlp> wikipedia says 18mm, but we've very explicitly used 17.8 traditionally, to make things actually fit.  Just wanted to double check the source of that, but ... there isn't one...
2021-12-13T17:55:59 < qyx> hm, breakers use 17.5
2021-12-13T17:56:04 < qyx> 35 for dual, etc
2021-12-13T17:56:45 < karlp> no... they use 17.8 or 18 for single :)
2021-12-13T17:56:56 < karlp> there's a few 17.6, lots of 17.8 and quite a few 18
2021-12-13T17:57:06 < karlp> phoenix sells busbar with 17.8mm pitch, and 18mm wide breakers....
2021-12-13T17:57:44 < qyx> OEZ RCB is 35.8
2021-12-13T17:58:08 < qyx> oez dual pole breaker is 34.8
2021-12-13T17:58:59 < karlp> joy hey? :)
2021-12-13T17:59:00 < qyx> oez breaker 17.8, eaton breaker 17.45
2021-12-13T17:59:19 < qyx> just playing
2021-12-13T17:59:25 < qyx> one more brand here
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2021-12-13T18:00:07 < qyx> SEZ RCB is 35, SEZ breaker is 17.5
2021-12-13T18:00:19 < qyx> hm maybe that last one is 17.5/35, some old slovakian norm
2021-12-13T18:00:26 < qyx> oez has siemens design
2021-12-13T18:02:03 < qyx> oh yeah, that oez dual pole breaker is from the old original series, the rcb is the new design from siemens, it is much wider
2021-12-13T18:02:19 < qyx> 34.8 vs 35.8
2021-12-13T18:03:14 < qyx> no more things to measure
2021-12-13T18:04:07 < qyx> oh one more eaton rcb, 35.6
2021-12-13T18:04:38 < qyx> back to work then
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2021-12-13T19:41:32 < kakium69> hobbi project idea
2021-12-13T19:41:57 < kakium69> big dial face ethernet speed gauge
2021-12-13T19:42:43 < Steffanx> Wireless with esp32 
2021-12-13T19:42:51 < kakium69> like big clock or manometer face
2021-12-13T19:43:05 < kakium69> maybe logaritmic speed steps
2021-12-13T19:43:45 < kakium69> wireless ofc
2021-12-13T19:44:18 < qyx> what for
2021-12-13T19:44:30 < kakium69> decoration
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2021-12-13T20:04:07 < jpa-> heh, i didn't realize from the photo how small this ICE40UL1K-B-EVN board is; and even so they still needed to put an arrow so that one wouldn't miss the tiny FPGA on the board :)
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2021-12-13T20:10:20 < sauce> funny how it has an ftdi thats like 8x larger
2021-12-13T20:10:34 < qyx> and 8x more expensive
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2021-12-13T20:39:09 < kakium69> Steffanx: idea can be expanded to: temperature outside, electricity spot price, your stock portfolio at red or green and how much
2021-12-13T20:39:42 < kakium69> has anyone yet replaced clock motion with iot?
2021-12-13T20:47:01 < kakium69> glance clock but it looks to be more of a clock face with a tonne of leds
2021-12-13T20:47:10 < kakium69> I bet motion is standard
2021-12-13T21:13:58 < ventYl> that's good marketing idea
2021-12-13T21:14:02 < ventYl> people love uselss stuff
2021-12-13T21:14:16 < ventYl> like gas boiler statistics and remote control via smartphone
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2021-12-13T21:18:51 < kakium69> yes
2021-12-13T21:19:00 < kakium69> it sexy
2021-12-13T21:20:05 < kakium69> okay I have name already
2021-12-13T21:20:09 < kakium69> just came up
2021-12-13T21:20:22 < BrainDamage> remote control of boiler if it's tank based wouldn't be useless
2021-12-13T21:20:39 < kakium69> you guys remote control boilers?
2021-12-13T21:20:45 < BrainDamage> you can warm the shower's water before getting home
2021-12-13T21:20:54 < kakium69> the fuq
2021-12-13T21:21:01 < ventYl> mine takes lik 10 minutes to warm up => useless
2021-12-13T21:21:19 < BrainDamage> no, mine's gas based, open tap and i get hot water in 5s
2021-12-13T21:21:34 < BrainDamage> i have a friend which takes 30 min tho
2021-12-13T21:21:45 < kakium69> there used to be a problem that sauna took 1hour to heat up
2021-12-13T21:22:09 < ventYl> and for vast majority of year, solar water heater is worky
2021-12-13T21:22:29 < kakium69> but water is always hot as boilers are ran by thermostat 247
2021-12-13T21:22:42 < ventYl> I plan to create touchscreen based gadget with fancy UI showing some graphs and post it on dicked in
2021-12-13T21:22:51 < ventYl> how many people will catch on it
2021-12-13T21:23:03 < kakium69> none
2021-12-13T21:23:23 < kakium69> you want my iot-motion motors for clock faces ventYl?
2021-12-13T21:23:45 < ventYl> i don't have any clock here
2021-12-13T21:24:00 < kakium69> it's to show anything but time
2021-12-13T21:24:01 < ventYl> only smartwatch, which were hacked to run my RTOS, so they don't show current time anymore
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2021-12-13T21:24:13 < BrainDamage> i added motion lights to my parent's home
2021-12-13T21:24:23 < kakium69> motion lights are nice
2021-12-13T21:24:38 < BrainDamage> my father has halzeimer and often wanders around at night
2021-12-13T21:25:53 < kakium69> motion lights are lifestyle
2021-12-13T21:26:17 < kakium69> I went to friends kitchen and light just ramped up
2021-12-13T21:26:31 < kakium69> "heck did I touch something"
2021-12-13T21:26:51 < ventYl> i have cats here, lights would randomly go on and off
2021-12-13T21:27:07 < kakium69> need cloud based AI on third party server
2021-12-13T21:27:29 < kakium69> and monthly fee
2021-12-13T21:27:33 < kakium69> to detect cats
2021-12-13T21:27:48 < ventYl> that could positively identify cat jumping onto counter top and hit it with HV electric impulse
2021-12-13T21:29:33 < Ecco> Hey guys, quick dumb question: I'd like to build some position-independent code, including a statically-linked libc.
2021-12-13T21:29:58 < Ecco> (Essentially, I'm just trying to build a binary that can be run at/from any address)
2021-12-13T21:30:28 < Ecco> Do you confirm that the libc that ships with the ARM-GCC is a non-PIC newlib? Would you have any recommendation of a libc I could/should use?
2021-12-13T21:33:47 < zyp> how are you planning to handle relocations?
2021-12-13T21:34:52 < Ecco> Well, so far I'm using R9 as a GOT offset, and setting it up manually. I also update the GOT manually to account for where I relocated the code/data.
2021-12-13T21:35:01 < Ecco> (not sure if I'm answering your question right)
2021-12-13T21:35:34 < Ecco> But I feel like the way relocation is handled (for instance, the convention that R9 points to the GOT) is very compile-time dependant
2021-12-13T21:35:42 < Ecco> so I feel like I *will* have to build a libc anyway, right?
2021-12-13T21:36:13 < ventYl> that convention is probably part of ABI
2021-12-13T21:36:23 < zyp> I would guess so
2021-12-13T21:37:17 < Ecco> ventYl: hmm, yeah, sounds like you're right
2021-12-13T21:37:18 < zyp> what is your usecase for PIC?
2021-12-13T21:37:47 < Ecco> Being able to load custom code modules on the fly. Without knowing where/how they will be in Flash.
2021-12-13T21:38:06 < kakium69> very interesting
2021-12-13T21:38:11 < Ecco> Like, add small apps. I don't know where they will be because I want to be able to have more than 1
2021-12-13T21:38:30 < ventYl> add them when? during runtime?
2021-12-13T21:38:33 < Ecco> Yes
2021-12-13T21:38:34 < zyp> modules? wouldn't dynamic linking (e.g. .so) be more relevant?
2021-12-13T21:38:36 < ventYl> or simply enable them during compilation?
2021-12-13T21:38:54 < Ecco> zyp: Well, can you really do dynamic linking w/o an MMU?
2021-12-13T21:39:00 < ventYl> ofc
2021-12-13T21:39:03 < zyp> why not?
2021-12-13T21:39:08 < ventYl> dynamic linking is not dependant on MMU
2021-12-13T21:39:13 < Ecco> ok, interesting
2021-12-13T21:39:17 < Ecco> Let's take a super simple example
2021-12-13T21:39:20 < Ecco> I have a firmware
2021-12-13T21:39:33 < Ecco> that may want to use a binary that's uploaded at runtime
2021-12-13T21:40:10 < Ecco> Something simple, let's say it's just a function "int decision_function(int a, int b)"
2021-12-13T21:40:17 < zyp> I believe dynamic linking is a variant of PIC, because you can't know ahead of time where in the memory space it'll be loaded, since multiple libs could then conflict
2021-12-13T21:40:30 < ventYl> actually, dynamically linked code must be PIC
2021-12-13T21:40:33 < fenugrec> Ecco, the process of loading would entail your "loader" fixing up addresses
2021-12-13T21:40:43 < fenugrec> ^
2021-12-13T21:40:52 < ventYl> and in case of ELF shared object it is
2021-12-13T21:40:53 < Ecco> fenugrec: yes. This I kind of figured out already.
2021-12-13T21:41:04 < zyp> the thing is, you know where it'll be loaded when you're writing flash
2021-12-13T21:41:17 < zyp> so you'll patch the relocs before writing
2021-12-13T21:41:21 < Ecco> Oh, yeah, I guess I could do that
2021-12-13T21:41:35 < ventYl> Ecco: basically, ELF works in a way, that relocation table points to "relocator". you call the function, relocator realized which entry in relocation table you've used, fixes it and then tail-calls that entry again
2021-12-13T21:41:48 < ventYl> PE/COFF loader is much more rudimentary and AFAIK not capable of lazy loading
2021-12-13T21:41:49 < Ecco> ventYl: that's a PLT, right?
2021-12-13T21:42:10 < fenugrec> I had spent some time trying to compile code that could run anywhere in RAM, and I could never get it just right. gcc kept emitting absolute addresses and a GOT table and all kinds of garbage.
2021-12-13T21:43:09 < ventYl> Ecco: dunno, how it is actually called. i am more familiar with PE/COFF mechanism rather than how ELF works
2021-12-13T21:43:16 < fenugrec> (i.e. I was trying to get it to use only PC-relative opcodes)
2021-12-13T21:44:09 < ventYl> yeah, I've been thinking if that is even possible
2021-12-13T21:44:16 < ventYl> that would make the code super-position-independent
2021-12-13T21:44:35 < ventYl> and as PC-relative offsets are like +-16MB, it would be sufficient for pretty much any embedded SW
2021-12-13T21:44:41 < fenugrec> that was the point (I did that for a different arch though, SH2), and it was extremely hard to get gcc to understand what I wanted.
2021-12-13T21:44:53 < ventYl> shitachi 2
2021-12-13T21:45:06 < ventYl> smells like gasoline
2021-12-13T21:45:07 < fenugrec> SUPER H2 you mean !
2021-12-13T21:46:10 < fenugrec> (it's a fun arch to code for compared to arm...). In the end I gave up, wrote a linker script for a fixed address in RAM, and wrote a tiny loader that self-moved the whole thing to the proper address
2021-12-13T21:46:24 < ventYl> i've been working with shitachi 4
2021-12-13T21:47:13 < fenugrec> nice
2021-12-13T21:47:15 < fenugrec> on what
2021-12-13T21:47:15 < ventYl> IIRC ISA opcodes were like simplified chineese transliterated into latin
2021-12-13T21:47:21 < ventYl> STM ST7162
2021-12-13T21:47:30 < fenugrec> one of those settop box things ?
2021-12-13T21:47:34 < ventYl> yeah
2021-12-13T21:49:41 < ventYl> and then another reneasas / hitachi / nec evil, v800
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2021-12-13T22:08:48 < kakium69> Steffanx: would zigbee work?
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2021-12-13T23:17:37 < karlp> Ecco: aiui, PIC only matters if you're hoping to let random people compile their code separately later.  if you just want a bunch of selectable loadable modules, .so and friends is more than sufficient.  have a look at nuttx's build system if you like, it supports it, at least.
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--- Day changed Tue Dec 14 2021
2021-12-14T00:04:27 < Steffanx>  
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2021-12-14T00:33:41 < fenugrec> lol. Couldn't figure out what was wrong with this F070 circuit... my code (ported from F072) was using TMR2, which is only available on the F072 
2021-12-14T00:34:04 < fenugrec> not having an stlink to hand made this even more fun
2021-12-14T00:38:22 < fenugrec> hah. F070 doesn't even have a 32-bit timer
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2021-12-14T11:07:50 < jadew> what music do you guys listen to in 2021 when working?
2021-12-14T11:23:25 < Xogium> jadew: hah I'm hardcore that way, disturbed
2021-12-14T11:23:39 < Xogium> but now volume
2021-12-14T11:23:45 < Xogium> er, low volume
2021-12-14T11:23:59 < jadew> heh
2021-12-14T11:24:07 < Xogium> how about you ?
2021-12-14T11:24:40 < jadew> I don't know anymore... past few days I've been listening to workout music
2021-12-14T11:25:45 < Xogium> there's one thing that I'm glad for in a way in being blind
2021-12-14T11:26:20 < Xogium> I just can't put the music at full volume and damage my ears, because if I do that then it gets louder than my tts can ever be
2021-12-14T11:27:46 < Xogium> and losing tts is not a smart idea :p
2021-12-14T11:28:42 < jadew> I think I used to listen to disturbed too at one point, when coding
2021-12-14T11:28:49 < jadew> these days I prefer mellower stuff
2021-12-14T11:29:59 < Xogium> heh
2021-12-14T11:30:20 < Xogium> I'm in that phase, maybe one day I put it back in the music storage for a while :p
2021-12-14T11:31:40 < jadew> this is what I like today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwqb0zbDd1I
2021-12-14T11:32:46 < Xogium> this isn't half bad indeed
2021-12-14T11:33:04 < jadew> it's good for coding
2021-12-14T11:33:14 < Xogium> I was having the same thought
2021-12-14T11:33:50 < Xogium> speaking of code, you got any clue how to check if a variable is 0 or 1 in shell script ? I'm trying to avoid bashism
2021-12-14T11:34:42 < jadew> nope, sorry
2021-12-14T11:34:57 < Xogium> the script doesn't need to be concrened with setting the variable, just checking if my make command invoked earlier has it set to 0 or 1
2021-12-14T11:35:08 < Xogium> *concerned
2021-12-14T11:35:12 < Xogium> that's alright
2021-12-14T11:36:42 < jadew> hmm, I need some functionality that I could swear I implemented and had available in my library
2021-12-14T11:36:47 < jadew> but it's not there
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2021-12-14T11:37:00 < jadew> guess I have to do it again
2021-12-14T11:37:04 < Xogium> I need to place a file in my rootfs and use a different config for generating the rootfs if  this is set, otherwise don't add the file and use this other config
2021-12-14T11:37:15 < Xogium> not worth the effort of duplicating the entire defconfig here
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2021-12-14T11:38:15 < Xogium> like eMMC in pslc/enhanced mode vs regular mlc
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2021-12-14T11:43:13 < jadew> Xogium, can you tell from the voice weather the singer is a male or a female? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDjeBNv6ip0
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2021-12-14T11:47:50 < Xogium> lets try
2021-12-14T11:48:57 < Xogium> jadew: I'd say its a male
2021-12-14T11:49:12 < jadew> hah, so you got fooled too
2021-12-14T11:49:24 < Xogium> heh, did I
2021-12-14T11:49:44 < jadew> yeah, she's very butch tho
2021-12-14T11:50:05 < jadew> my wife guessed the same after watching the video
2021-12-14T11:50:18 < Xogium> damn
2021-12-14T11:50:47 < Xogium> its not even that the voice is in the lower register or anything, just the way of singing
2021-12-14T11:51:24 < PaulFertser> Now try the same test with "countertenor" examples.
2021-12-14T11:51:27 < jadew> oh, it's interesting that you mention that, because she also has a way of moving that makes it difficult to tell
2021-12-14T11:51:36 < jadew> like... a very manly demeanor
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2021-12-14T11:52:49 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-14T11:53:15 < Xogium> I'm honestly not quite sure what's "manly" or not given I've never seen but yeah
2021-12-14T11:53:26 < jadew> PaulFertser, oh yeah, I met a guy who was a countertenor and his singing was amazing, he had a video of Memory interpreted by himself (original Elain Paige) and google took it down because the algo thought it's Elain Paige
2021-12-14T11:54:07 < jadew> Xogium, I couldn't put my finger on it either, but I guess you subconsciously sense those things
2021-12-14T11:56:08 < Xogium> probably
2021-12-14T11:56:19 < Xogium> must be wired in our genetic or something
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2021-12-14T12:38:13 < karlp> digikey spam for "wide vin" LDO's, 60V... none of the first page is any higher than 24v.  nice one.  https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/o/on-semi/wide-vin-ldos
2021-12-14T12:41:38 < karlp> lol though, click enough, and you get this gem: https://www.onsemi.com/pdf/datasheet/ncp781-d.pdf
2021-12-14T12:41:48 < karlp> 150V input LDO, 100mA.
2021-12-14T12:42:26 < karlp> ~10W in the package if you think you can even try that...
2021-12-14T12:42:34 < karlp> and the package is 125°C/W.
2021-12-14T12:44:35 < karlp> shouldn't say LDO, it's a linear regulator, not LDO at all, dropout is 4V...
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2021-12-14T14:47:06 < bitmask> hello
2021-12-14T14:47:14 < bitmask> I think I'm alive
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2021-12-14T14:48:04 < ventYl> that's just an illusion
2021-12-14T14:48:09 < bitmask> probably
2021-12-14T14:48:34 < ventYl> woah, I got a parcel today. I haven't opened it yet
2021-12-14T14:48:37 < ventYl> presents!
2021-12-14T14:53:19 < karlp> I have two at the post office to pick up, but I'm kinda expecting a thirdd.
2021-12-14T14:53:26 < karlp> don't want to go and get _half_ of the present.
2021-12-14T14:54:05 < BrainDamage> you can forward them to me for my birthday
2021-12-14T14:54:23 < BrainDamage> stm32 becoming an expensive gift
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2021-12-14T16:09:44 < karlp> I didn't say theyt were stm32s :)
2021-12-14T17:38:37 < Mangy_Dog> https://twitter.com/KWF/status/1470508119725805570?t=47P4sXQWZmQLPKeJwa_TcQ&s=19
2021-12-14T17:39:14 < Mangy_Dog> i find it interesting it has a raw silicon stm32f103 die on the module.... also surprised the chip has enough bandwidth for 100gb
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2021-12-14T17:40:46 < karlp> the f1 will just be handlign the OOB comms.
2021-12-14T17:41:00 < karlp> some SFPs have big enough processors you can run linux on them....
2021-12-14T17:41:51 < Mangy_Dog> hmm
2021-12-14T17:42:46 < karlp> what do you mena by "raw silicon die" ?
2021-12-14T17:43:01 < Mangy_Dog> packageless
2021-12-14T17:44:20 < Mangy_Dog> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FGhRjSpVQAI-dzi?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
2021-12-14T17:44:26 < Mangy_Dog> the wafer soldered direct to the board
2021-12-14T17:46:52 < karlp> that's much to big to be the die itself.
2021-12-14T17:47:08 < karlp> tends not to have letters printed on top of the die either...
2021-12-14T17:48:14 < karlp> wlcsp sort of stuff I guess, not a catalog item anyway.
2021-12-14T17:49:13 < Mangy_Dog> deffo a special thing
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2021-12-14T17:49:44 < Mangy_Dog> but also is the die itself really that much smaller?
2021-12-14T17:49:59 < Mangy_Dog> i thought the whole thing about these mcus is theyre cheap because they use a large nm process?
2021-12-14T17:55:16 < karlp> 90nm vs 45nm vs 28nm is stil nm scale...
2021-12-14T17:57:11 < karlp> Mangy_Dog: https://twitter.com/KWF/status/1470614670092685314/photo/1 is where the die is straight onto the board, you can see the bond wires...
2021-12-14T17:57:29 < karlp> that kwf guy was not quite precise earlier when he spoke about it for the stm32
2021-12-14T17:57:46 < Mangy_Dog> ahh
2021-12-14T18:12:44 < karlp> Mangy_Dog: here's one with linux on board: https://forum.openwrt.org/t/support-ma5671a-sfp-gpon/48042/7
2021-12-14T18:13:06 < Mangy_Dog> oooohhh
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2021-12-14T19:54:14 < jpa-> karlp: 4.4x4.4mm WLCSP64 is a standard package for STM32F103
2021-12-14T19:54:56 < jpa-> i would call it a "bare die", though probably the active area of the die is not really as large and the top few layers are fan-out to get larger pitch between the balls
2021-12-14T19:55:11 < jpa-> but the back side that is visible with the texts is back side of the silicon wafer anyway
2021-12-14T19:59:14 < aandrew> yeah I have a bunch of F411 which are 49WLCSP and 0.4mm
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2021-12-14T21:26:12 < kakium69> anyone know free software that could simulate inductance motor?
2021-12-14T21:30:37 < catphish> afaik the only software that can do this is mathworks
2021-12-14T21:30:59 < catphish> just trial and error it with a real motor :)
2021-12-14T21:31:33 < kakium69> maybe
2021-12-14T21:34:46 < catphish> any particular goal?
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2021-12-14T21:36:49 < BrainDamage> i know one, but getting it to work would be more effort than working few months to pay a comsol license
2021-12-14T21:38:12 < kakium69> catphish: miniature axial flux induction motor
2021-12-14T21:38:18 < kakium69> *inductance
2021-12-14T21:38:33 < kakium69> BrainDamage: openfoam?
2021-12-14T21:38:43 < BrainDamage> elmer
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2021-12-14T21:45:41 < kakium69> freecad + elmer?
2021-12-14T21:47:26 < BrainDamage> if you want to pile even more work, then sure
2021-12-14T21:47:31 < catphish> surely inductance and induction are the same thing
2021-12-14T21:49:14 < kakium69> how about these cloud based things?
2021-12-14T21:49:52 < catphish> i'd love a way to accurately emulate induction motors
2021-12-14T21:50:01 < catphish> but it seems extremely complicated and expensive
2021-12-14T21:51:24 < kakium69> (con)fusion360, simscale, onshape?
2021-12-14T21:52:32 < kakium69> ah simscale works as addon for fusion360 and onshape
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2021-12-14T22:39:03 < kakium69> well my rotor is solid metal cylinder with space constraints so I just try it
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2021-12-14T23:04:14 < HelloShitty> Hello... When I get this error while trying to compile a project using libopencm3 library, what am I missing?
2021-12-14T23:04:17 < HelloShitty> https://paste.debian.net/1223469/
2021-12-14T23:04:57 < HelloShitty> I tried to start a new project running `git init`, then `git submodule add https://github.com/libopencm3/libopencm3.git` 
2021-12-14T23:05:25 < HelloShitty> then I added the linker file and the Makefile with the target cpu, just as I had in a previous project
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2021-12-14T23:06:04 < HelloShitty> I'm not sure but I think I added this target to some file in the library somewhere because it shares the same memory addresses as other l4 chips
2021-12-14T23:06:09 < fenugrec> you're passing DEVICE=stm32.... somewhere, and it's telling you it doesn't recognize that
2021-12-14T23:06:30 < HelloShitty> yes, it's in the Makefile
2021-12-14T23:06:38 < fenugrec> is it actually listed in that ld/devices.data file ?
2021-12-14T23:06:50 < HelloShitty> ahh, it's probably that that is missing
2021-12-14T23:06:57 < HelloShitty> I didn't remember where I added it
2021-12-14T23:07:15 < fenugrec> or you have too many suffixes, depending how the GENLINK script works. iei stm32l412cb6 is probablyok
2021-12-14T23:07:53 < HelloShitty> stm32l412cb6t works in the other project, so it must work here
2021-12-14T23:08:02 < HelloShitty> I'm sure I'm missing the devices.data thing
2021-12-14T23:09:05 < HelloShitty> yeah, it's compiling now
2021-12-14T23:09:40 < HelloShitty> thanks fenugrec 
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2021-12-15T00:17:37 < HelloShitty> I have a question. I'm trying to setup the clocks of an stm32l412cb6t chip using libopencm3. The library function rcc_set_main_pll() requires, among others, a paramenter PLLP. In the datasheet clock block diagram I can see this PLLP parameter exitting the PLL block, right next to PLLQ and PLLR. It even has a name associated to it - PLLSAI2CLK. However, if I check STM32CubeMX clock diagram, I can't 
2021-12-15T00:17:43 < HelloShitty> find this PLLP parameter
2021-12-15T00:18:00 < HelloShitty> So, what am I supposed to send to that rcc_set_main_pll() function for this parameter?
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2021-12-15T02:55:18 < Mangy_Dog> https://youtu.be/FxLrD4D4GGs   Part 2 is out :D
2021-12-15T03:11:31 < karlp> jpa-: it's not listed on st's website, nor in the datsheets for the low density parts, that C6 implies...
2021-12-15T03:11:49 < karlp> I actually went looking for it, found wlcsp for ~most parts _after_ f1,
2021-12-15T03:12:33 < karlp> wlcsp is still die on a package, you're not putting the die on your pcb.
2021-12-15T03:12:37 < karlp> (IMO)
2021-12-15T03:14:19 < karlp> HelloShitty: man, it literally told you, "stm32l412cb6t not found in ./libopencm3//ld/devices.data"
2021-12-15T03:14:26 < karlp> how could we make that error message better?
2021-12-15T03:15:02 < qyx> shouldn't it be cbt6?
2021-12-15T03:15:17 < Mangy_Dog> ^^^
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2021-12-15T03:23:45 < Mangy_Dog> bed time nn everyone :)
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2021-12-15T13:10:45 < karlp> heh, four layer board with 3 traces on inner1, and 5 traces on the bottom. nothign on inner2..
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2021-12-15T13:16:17 < jpa-> should have put some hidden graphics on inner2
2021-12-15T13:19:50 < zyp> sounds like somebody made a 2L design and did a last minute change because they couldn't find a reasonable way to cross two signals or something
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2021-12-15T13:29:52 < jpa-> i've sometimes done 2-layer designs and then just added two ground planes for better EMC, but leaving a layer completely unused is a bit funny :)
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2021-12-15T15:35:20 < karlp> nah, it's these magic coils needing 4 layers, and the rest of the board being very bog standard...
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2021-12-15T16:33:47 < kakium69> zigbee to be replaced by C.H.I.P. ?
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2021-12-15T16:35:48 < kakium69> connected home over ip
2021-12-15T16:35:52 < kakium69> chip
2021-12-15T16:36:34 < kakium69> https://zigbeealliance.org/news_and_articles/project-development-to-reality/
2021-12-15T16:37:33 < karlp> chip is now matter iirc?
2021-12-15T16:37:41 < karlp> both stupid names.
2021-12-15T16:38:54 < kakium69> ah
2021-12-15T16:40:47 < kakium69> and zigbee alliance is now connectivity standards alliance
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2021-12-15T17:31:03 < kakium69> BrainDamage: I have good feeling about this elmer thing
2021-12-15T18:12:17 < BrainDamage> that makes one of us
2021-12-15T18:13:19 < kakium69> :D
2021-12-15T18:13:43 < kakium69> I like understand this process, gui etc.
2021-12-15T18:14:33 < kakium69> not that I understand physics or fem or anything but at least I don't hit a wall with gui
2021-12-15T18:24:47 < ventYl> i've already had an encounter with it
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2021-12-15T19:22:50 < kakium69> https://github.com/ElmerCSC/elmer-elmag/tree/main/CircuitBuilder
2021-12-15T19:33:18 < kakium69> Dell has like 1Gigs of stuff running on my laptop
2021-12-15T19:34:17 < Xogium> do you guys have an idea of what kind of mcu could be used to make a not smart talking watch ? Like… Just the good old regular kind of watch but talking… I'm guessing most watches for sighted folks don't have a mcu inside thought ?
2021-12-15T19:34:25 < Xogium> I of course exclude smart watches
2021-12-15T19:35:56 < Xogium> I'm just kind of sick of checking to get a talking watch and having to pay over 100 euros for a watch that can't even keep the time any good
2021-12-15T19:36:07 < Xogium> my current watch is very weird
2021-12-15T19:36:35 < Xogium> it has a battery for the talking part and another battery for the display and visual clock kind of thing…
2021-12-15T19:37:03 < Xogium> visual clock says it is 18:36 but audible clock says it is 18:42
2021-12-15T19:37:10 < Xogium> they keep desyncing
2021-12-15T19:38:01 < Xogium> visual clock is right, audible clock always drift off
2021-12-15T19:38:11 < mawk> both are on battery?
2021-12-15T19:38:22 < Xogium> yeah like cr2032 or some other coin cell
2021-12-15T19:38:24 < mawk> ah
2021-12-15T19:38:35 < mawk> if it were on sector frequency disparities could explain it
2021-12-15T19:38:42 < mawk> but if it's on battery then just low quality I guess
2021-12-15T19:38:56 < Xogium> yeah I'm sick of these
2021-12-15T19:39:09 < mawk> what kind of mcu, well you don't need anything fancy I suppose, you just need enough flash space to store the audio files I guess
2021-12-15T19:39:10 < Xogium> I payed 140 euros for that watch, I was expecting good quality ffs
2021-12-15T19:39:41 < Xogium> mhm and enough ram to run opus codec or whatever
2021-12-15T19:39:55 < mawk> why?
2021-12-15T19:40:02 < mawk> you don't have that many audio files to store
2021-12-15T19:40:06 < mawk> you can store it raw or whatever
2021-12-15T19:40:21 < mawk> or even in a shitty codec, it's just words spoken not a beethoven symphony
2021-12-15T19:41:17 < Xogium> yeah, true, but opus has a good ratio for disk space vs inteligibility or howevey ou spell that
2021-12-15T19:41:26 < mawk> yeah
2021-12-15T19:41:35 < Xogium> so why it came to mind
2021-12-15T19:42:40 < Xogium> honestly I don't ask for much :p I wouldn't even care if it doesn't look fancy and has no real clock mechanism with the hands and the nice ticktock sound
2021-12-15T19:43:05 < Xogium> just audio for me and that it can avoid drifting too damn bad is my primary concern
2021-12-15T19:43:45 < Xogium> like, ok I know clocks drift, that's why we have ntp for internet devices and such but…
2021-12-15T19:44:18 < Xogium> I never expected a clock to drift nearly 7 minutes forward in a few weeks
2021-12-15T19:46:21 < Xogium> maybe its just me ? But the fact the clock face for the sighted people is still ok shows that I'm probably not gone mad and it sure shouldn't have so bad a drift
2021-12-15T19:47:41 < Xogium> its been almost 2 years the clock was set for the sighted, and in all this time it is still showing the correct minute, so surely the drift is a few seconds ?
2021-12-15T19:48:32 < kakium69> I have my casio beep hourly
2021-12-15T19:48:59 < Xogium> as in the synth ? :p
2021-12-15T19:49:18 < kakium69> my watch
2021-12-15T19:49:22 < Xogium> I could probably do the same with a korg minilogue I've gotten, would be overkill though :D
2021-12-15T19:49:29 < Xogium> ah
2021-12-15T19:49:58 < Xogium> but how does it holds time ? I mean, how fequently do you have to adjust it so it doesn't keep drifting forward ?
2021-12-15T19:50:18 < kakium69> monthly
2021-12-15T19:50:19 < Xogium> for me it starts off, even in the same week
2021-12-15T19:50:33 < kakium69> pirate casio drifts like crazy though
2021-12-15T19:51:01 < kakium69> I got bin laden model from china for like 2dollards
2021-12-15T19:51:03 < Xogium> why's that, does it has to do with the rtc ? Well, do they even have such a thing…
2021-12-15T19:51:16 < Xogium> I guess it could be just because of the crystal they use ?
2021-12-15T19:51:46 < kakium69> because everything
2021-12-15T19:52:12 < Xogium> I kind of wonder why my watch audio clock keeps being very bad while the one on display is like, rock solid and has barely drifted in about 2 years, so much so the minute is still the right one
2021-12-15T19:52:34 < kakium69> thats accurate
2021-12-15T19:53:26 < Xogium> yeah I asked a friend the other day and he said it was showing 18:35, yet when pressing the button for me it said it was 18:41
2021-12-15T19:53:54 < kakium69> is it separate watch?
2021-12-15T19:54:01 < Xogium> nah its the same
2021-12-15T19:54:07 < Xogium> but running on 2 different batteries
2021-12-15T19:54:30 < Xogium> 2 coin cells… I forget, one is cr2025 or something and the other cr2032
2021-12-15T19:54:35 < kakium69> voice one has poorly made RTC
2021-12-15T19:55:02 < Xogium> hrm
2021-12-15T19:55:11 < Xogium> this sucks
2021-12-15T19:55:30 < Xogium> every single talking watch I've ever owned had this drifting issue
2021-12-15T19:55:32 < kakium69> they probs took genuine watch "motion" from a watch brand for visual one
2021-12-15T19:55:47 < Xogium> yeah…
2021-12-15T19:56:16 < Xogium> but I'm really annoyed I payed 140 euros for a clock I can't trust
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2021-12-15T19:57:27 < Xogium> I don't think it could be fixed though, could it
2021-12-15T19:59:20 < kakium69> maybe changing the crystal to better one
2021-12-15T19:59:27 < Xogium> surely it wouldn't be that difficult to make a watch that could keep the time accurately ?
2021-12-15T19:59:34 < Xogium> if I must :p
2021-12-15T20:00:33 < Xogium> yeah that's probably possible to be done by a jeweler ? I guess they'd have the tool to replace the crystal
2021-12-15T20:01:09 < Xogium> or if not a jeweler whoever takes care of clocks and watches… I don't know the english word for that
2021-12-15T20:02:32 < kakium69> clocksmith
2021-12-15T20:02:36 < Xogium> ah
2021-12-15T20:02:44 < Xogium> makes sense, actually
2021-12-15T20:03:18 < Xogium> they must have good quality crystals around somewhere if they do repair on clocks and such
2021-12-15T20:04:28 < Xogium> could it also be because the battery for the talking part of the watch is drained faster than the one for the visual part that the drift is that bad ?
2021-12-15T20:05:00 < Xogium> or is it just related to the crystal used at that point ?
2021-12-15T20:06:53 < kakium69> it's just not power optimized propperly
2021-12-15T20:07:29 < kakium69> also making audible voice takes a lot more energy than LCD
2021-12-15T20:08:33 < kakium69> but I bet it's architectural fault unless you read the time like 50times a day
2021-12-15T20:09:17 < Xogium> yeah nop definitely not 50 times a day lol
2021-12-15T20:09:22 < kakium69> you could measure the idle current from battery contacts
2021-12-15T20:10:30 < kakium69> if you have something that goes all way to microamps
2021-12-15T20:10:44 < kakium69> or just by using resistor as a shunt
2021-12-15T20:11:11 < Xogium> hmmm don't have any multimeter thing
2021-12-15T20:11:44 < Xogium> most of them are useless anyway :p all they do is beep at you if that
2021-12-15T20:12:02 < BrainDamage> get one with a usb port
2021-12-15T20:12:14 < BrainDamage> then you can read it with the pc
2021-12-15T20:12:27 < BrainDamage> be it braille or voice
2021-12-15T20:12:40 < Xogium> really ? Don't you need their special fancy software to do that because its using non standard protocol ?
2021-12-15T20:13:38 < BrainDamage> while there's a standard-ish protocol called usbtmc, not many use it
2021-12-15T20:13:53 < BrainDamage> i meant using sigrok as interface
2021-12-15T20:14:16 < BrainDamage> https://www.sigrok.org/
2021-12-15T20:14:22 < Xogium> hmm never heard of that
2021-12-15T20:14:57 < Xogium> could be good though… Just have to be careful I guess, and not accidentally touch the pins/contacts of the multimeter
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2021-12-15T20:15:56 < BrainDamage> you could wrap electrician tape on most of the probe so that only a tiny part is exposed
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2021-12-15T20:16:26 < Xogium> yeah like, why in the world they make those so damn big anyway ?
2021-12-15T20:16:58 < BrainDamage> so you can wrap wire on them
2021-12-15T20:17:19 < Xogium> but… why would you want to wrap wire on there ?
2021-12-15T20:17:35 < BrainDamage> electricians mostly
2021-12-15T20:17:45 < Xogium> ah
2021-12-15T20:17:52 < BrainDamage> also, stick in screw terminals
2021-12-15T20:19:01 < BrainDamage> it might be a good idea to buy a cheap logic analyser too
2021-12-15T20:19:29 < Xogium> but so how do you place the multimeter on whatever you want to measure without touching it ? Ok you guys have eyes for that, but say I want to measure voltage on a gpio pin for example, or some such, how the hell do I find the pin and place the meter on it without touching the probes ?
2021-12-15T20:20:25 < BrainDamage> you first find the point with the board unpowered
2021-12-15T20:21:27 < BrainDamage> if the voltages are low you might even diy a 'touch' interface you could wear
2021-12-15T20:22:11 < BrainDamage> as in,a sort of band-aid wrapped on your finger, made of insulating material, and a wire with the tip exposed on top
2021-12-15T20:23:06 < BrainDamage> then you drag it around on the area feeling for the surfaces
2021-12-15T20:24:25 < BrainDamage> if you make the board yourself, you can simply add a connector with lots of test points
2021-12-15T20:24:37 < BrainDamage> and then plug it into a logic analyser
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2021-12-15T20:26:15 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-15T20:26:21 < Xogium> maybe could work yeah
2021-12-15T20:27:41 < Xogium> but what are low voltages ? Like what is considered low in that case, and what would be considered too high to use the band-aid method ?
2021-12-15T20:28:24 < BrainDamage> 20-30V is what's considered safe to touch with bare hands
2021-12-15T20:28:35 < Xogium> really ?
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2021-12-15T20:29:10 < BrainDamage> which gives you ability to probe pretty much anything but power circuits
2021-12-15T20:29:32 < Xogium> hmm could feel a bit ticking I guess, or maybe a mini sting
2021-12-15T20:29:42 < Xogium> *tickling
2021-12-15T20:31:07 < Xogium> but yeah I have lots of issues with ESD so I guess first step would be to solve those. I wish I could be grounded properly and easily to all the electronics I could end up touching, but man this looks sooo darn complicated to manage
2021-12-15T20:31:17 < Xogium> like be grounded on same level as the electronics
2021-12-15T20:31:57 < BrainDamage> esd mat + strap should bring you 99% there
2021-12-15T20:32:01 < PaulFertser> Xogium: you shouldn't be grounded, no, that might give additional risks. The right way is to have an ESD bracelett connected to ground via a 1 MOhm.
2021-12-15T20:32:42 < Xogium> my teacher nicknamed me super capacitor at school because I often did super weird stuff like, I could keep charging myself then discharge massive amount of ESD, I kept frying electronics, even not bare boards
2021-12-15T20:33:08 < BrainDamage> the mat is barely conductive, and the strap normally has 1-10MOhm included
2021-12-15T20:33:42 < BrainDamage> the mat contacts the board and lets you slowly bleed charge there
2021-12-15T20:34:02 < Xogium> I swear that a discharge of 30 kv hurts like hell
2021-12-15T20:34:10 < Xogium> honestly, it really hurts
2021-12-15T20:34:16 < Xogium> it feels like a giant slap
2021-12-15T20:34:25 < PaulFertser> A story about dying from 9 V: https://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin1999-50.html
2021-12-15T20:36:03 < Xogium> when I zap something it usually makes a hell of a noise and sometimes you can even see what looks like bolts of, well I guess static ? Not sure. But I feel it too and god the smell, its the same smell as lightning
2021-12-15T20:36:40 < BrainDamage> ozone
2021-12-15T20:37:18 < Xogium> its crazy I can almost touch the stuff like you know, on slides for children in parks, those made from plastic, you can touch the electricity in there
2021-12-15T20:37:22 < BrainDamage> in mid school the basketball field was covered with a rubber mat
2021-12-15T20:37:34 < Xogium> well you could do that but with my hand when I'm charged as much as I can get
2021-12-15T20:37:46 < BrainDamage> I loved to bounce the ball while rollng it on my fingers
2021-12-15T20:38:06 < BrainDamage> i built up charge in seconds, and could zap anyone
2021-12-15T20:38:12 < Xogium> hehehe
2021-12-15T20:38:13 < PaulFertser> Apparently clothing and humidity plays a great role in collecting static charge.
2021-12-15T20:38:26 < BrainDamage> correct
2021-12-15T20:38:31 < Xogium> PaulFertser: yeah, winter is the absolute worst
2021-12-15T20:39:33 < Xogium> the number of braille displays I fucked up because I kept discharging massive static electricity in…
2021-12-15T20:39:56 < BrainDamage> don't wear sweaters :p
2021-12-15T20:40:13 < Xogium> piezo sure didn't like ESD
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2021-12-15T20:41:26 < Xogium> I'd read and at one point it,d go ZAP ! Display would freeze and make random garbage braille that didn't mean a thing, disconnect from windows, then 3 or 4 seconds later it would reconnect. Start reading again, few minutes later, ZAP ! Oh god
2021-12-15T20:43:00 < Xogium> 3 or 4 seconds lost at a time every few minutes during an exam was a disaster. And then after a few weeks or months of that they'd all end up dead
2021-12-15T20:44:44 < PaulFertser> Why weren't you carrying an ESD strap with you? Some have crocodile clips so you could attach to any metal part of the display.
2021-12-15T20:45:14 < Xogium> noone knew what was happening, so they didn't bother fixing it
2021-12-15T20:45:41 < Xogium> and I didn't know about those anti-ESD things
2021-12-15T20:46:39 < Xogium> at one point my school ended up expelling me because my braille display was broken yet again and I was apparently slowing down the class
2021-12-15T20:47:01 < PaulFertser> wtf...
2021-12-15T20:47:17 < Xogium> I was angry and like, what, do you expell students for breaking their pen or accidentally ripping a corner of a page off a book ?
2021-12-15T20:48:04 < Xogium> they went like, oh but you can come back once its repaired… The hell I will
2021-12-15T20:49:03 < Xogium> I stormed out of the class, I swear I was so angry I was shaking, went back home, waited a full month for my display to be repaired, or replaced as the case was because it was apparently too badly fucked up
2021-12-15T20:49:25 < Xogium> by that time school had ended and so yep, I never went back, not even the year after :p
2021-12-15T20:51:45 < Xogium> I don't think I was ever more angry in my whole life tbh
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2021-12-15T20:54:56 < kakium69> fun little prank realtek or dell did
2021-12-15T20:56:46 < kakium69> it needs maxxaudio pro in order to audio to work.. and that thing is on even when it's off
2021-12-15T20:57:12 < kakium69> even with headphones
2021-12-15T20:58:28 < Xogium> sounds like something dell would do to me
2021-12-15T20:59:03 < kakium69> workaround is to turn it on and then adjust effects off
2021-12-15T21:00:33 < kakium69> in order to have no effects
2021-12-15T21:00:46 < kakium69> or just disable the service I think
2021-12-15T21:02:22 < kakium69> also there is a gigabyte of dell bloatware running all kinds of updaters and agents and stuff.. no alert for critical bios update
2021-12-15T21:05:51 < kakium69> maybe I turned alerts off or never turned them on but surelly just one single background task from dell takes 600MB and others like a dozen of them are 60MB a piece or so
2021-12-15T21:06:26 < Xogium> jeez
2021-12-15T21:06:30 < Xogium> bloatwares
2021-12-15T21:07:44 < kakium69> gigabyt of doing nothing much
2021-12-15T21:09:26 < kakium69> winupdate boot>
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2021-12-15T21:10:01 < Xogium> erk
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2021-12-15T22:33:21 < kakium69> finally audio
2021-12-15T22:34:27 < kakium69> so dell realtek drivers crapped themselfs after I uninstalled it and installed again
2021-12-15T22:35:13 < kakium69> but this time I got "microsoft high definition audio device" driver to stick
2021-12-15T22:36:03 < kakium69> now I has headphones and no speakers but it's quite nice also EqualizerAPO can now work with the integrated soundcard
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2021-12-15T22:55:31 < ventYl> uninstalled it -> card or drivers?
2021-12-15T22:56:09 < ventYl> when I swapped one radeon for another radeon, windows crapped itself completely. it took like 5 reboots and recovery reboots to recover from failed reboot, to make it worky again
2021-12-15T22:58:07 < kakium69> drivers
2021-12-15T22:58:28 < kakium69> idea was to nuke everything and put microsoft generic driver to it
2021-12-15T22:58:40 < kakium69> but the whole device vanished too
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2021-12-16T00:24:02 < upgrdman> anyone use the arduino ide to program esp32 modules? is there any docs for the esp32 api? i cant even find a list of functions or headers :/
2021-12-16T00:24:54 < ventYl> do yourself a favor and stop using arduino :)
2021-12-16T00:25:53 < upgrdman> ventYl, ya i know, it's a shit ide and a half-assed ecosystem. i write c code for stm32f0 and f7... just using the arduino ide for a quick and dirty hack
2021-12-16T00:27:33 < ventYl> try to check lua firmware. for esp8266 it was probably the only way of making running SW. it should work as a Q&D way of proving something even on esp32
2021-12-16T00:38:28 < qyx> esp32 has micropython and espruino too iirc
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2021-12-16T01:38:31 < HelloShitty> Hello. I'm trying to set clocks to an STM32L412CB chip using libopencm3, but I must be missing something and I can't figure out what it is. The code I have for the clocks configuration is this:
2021-12-16T01:38:35 < HelloShitty> https://paste.debian.net/1223647/
2021-12-16T01:38:53 < HelloShitty> If anyone can help me figuring out what bit am I missing, I would appreciate
2021-12-16T01:39:30 < HelloShitty> Maybe I paste the entire code but the rest is just the timer set up to output a 1kHz square wave
2021-12-16T01:39:40 < HelloShitty> which is working with default clocks
2021-12-16T01:40:02 < HelloShitty> but when I try to setup clocks, I still get the same output on the scope as if I am still using default clocks
2021-12-16T01:40:54 < HelloShitty> this is the entire code
2021-12-16T01:40:56 < HelloShitty> https://paste.debian.net/1223648/
2021-12-16T01:41:25 < HelloShitty> the timer part was done by one of you guys here yesterday
2021-12-16T01:48:14 < HelloShitty> maybe tomorrow when I get back, I still can read any reply to this
2021-12-16T01:48:21 < HelloShitty> here in irc
2021-12-16T01:48:26 < HelloShitty> bed time for now
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2021-12-16T03:01:49 < kakium69> night pump
2021-12-16T03:15:21 < kakium69> okay
2021-12-16T03:16:04 < kakium69> I did git clone that's enough effort
2021-12-16T03:16:07 < kakium69> for now
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2021-12-16T10:53:09 < karlp> HelloShitty: try this*: https://paste.debian.net/1223680/
2021-12-16T10:54:11 < karlp> you were giving RCC_CFGR_SW_PLL                         0x3  to the first term of the pll setup, instead of RCC_PLLCFGR_PLLSRC_MSI          1
2021-12-16T10:54:33 < karlp> you were effectively giving it "hse" as the pll source, but without turning it on.
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2021-12-16T13:15:36 < Xogium> did anyone ever tried to run the opus codec on a microcontroller ? I'm curious what kind of specs it would actually need
2021-12-16T13:18:10 < jpa-> i tried to get it compiled for cortex-m4 once, but it seemed too bloat already at that point
2021-12-16T13:18:11 < c10ud> i think pretty much any stm32 can do it
2021-12-16T13:18:24 < jpa-> then i settled for libgsm just because it was easier to build :)
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2021-12-16T13:18:42 < c10ud> ymmv depending on chosen settings for the specific application
2021-12-16T13:19:31 < jpa-> 152 kB built size on cortex-m4 and i had 128 kB flash :)
2021-12-16T13:20:24 < c10ud> maybe my first sentence was too much optimist, I guess you would need at least simd
2021-12-16T13:20:37 < c10ud> as for space, well, it could depend on the features?
2021-12-16T13:20:43 < jpa-> yeah, there are pretty slow STM32s also :)
2021-12-16T13:20:58 < ventYl> Xogium: qyx did too
2021-12-16T13:22:00 < Xogium> really
2021-12-16T13:22:09 < ventYl> IIRC
2021-12-16T13:22:11 < Xogium> I was thinking like playback of say… 15 kbps opus files
2021-12-16T13:23:01 < c10ud> the real problem would be getting stm32s ahah
2021-12-16T13:27:09 < Xogium> well, any mcu that could use opus in theory, but you're saying the whole lib was 150+ kb ?
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2021-12-16T13:31:39 < c10ud> well, I just got curious, and ST own tests say 126kib for encoder+decoder, 80kib encoder only
2021-12-16T13:31:50 < c10ud> *decoder only
2021-12-16T13:32:05 < c10ud> got the number messed up, 150kib enc+dec, 80kib dec
2021-12-16T13:32:40 < c10ud> and looks like they integrated the codec inside CUBE..
2021-12-16T13:37:10 < Xogium> really
2021-12-16T13:37:16 < Xogium> 80 kb, hmm
2021-12-16T13:37:32 < Xogium> that's for flash, right ? What about ram usage ? Do they say ?
2021-12-16T13:38:21 < Xogium> its probably hard to estimate ram use though, but some approximate values
2021-12-16T13:39:35 < ventYl> unless you do use malloc() it's not that hard
2021-12-16T13:39:51 < Xogium> oh really ?
2021-12-16T13:41:25 < ventYl> yeah, you can get that information for pretty much every ELF, it will be unusable only if you use heap
2021-12-16T13:42:48 < Xogium> I didn't know that
2021-12-16T13:45:24 < karlp> there's some scripts in zypsnips for evaluating max frame depths and stuff
2021-12-16T13:46:49 < Xogium> I was tempted to try with an xiao from seeed studio but I doubt it would work :p
2021-12-16T13:47:04 < Xogium> cortex m0 for one and 32 kb sram/256 kb flash
2021-12-16T13:47:12 < Xogium> though 256 would probably be okay-ish
2021-12-16T13:47:23 < ventYl> gcc even has flag to warn if function frame is larger than X, but IME it often sends out false alarms
2021-12-16T13:48:30 < Xogium> I used circuit python on that mcu, that was like the first mcu board I got
2021-12-16T13:49:11 < Xogium> wanted to avoid the crap of arduino ide that isn't even accessible :p ok they have it in command line now, but still, its not a nice ide
2021-12-16T13:49:33 < c10ud> Xogium, https://www.compel.ru/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/dm00631949-getting-started-with-the-stm32cube-function-pack-for-stm32wb-mcu-featuring-advanced-audio-streaming-over-bluetooth-50-using-opus-codec-stmicroelectronics.pdf
2021-12-16T13:50:05 < c10ud> page 20
2021-12-16T13:50:38 < Xogium> oh yeah for bluetooth
2021-12-16T13:50:53 < Xogium> hmm could I use that without the bluetooth part ? Like just speaker and be done with it
2021-12-16T13:51:58 < c10ud> m0 could be too slow for real time
2021-12-16T13:52:24 < c10ud> f4 discovery board could be enough for you, as there's a dac 
2021-12-16T13:53:44 < ventYl> hm, i tried to cook mushroom sauce for the first time. result looks a more like wood glue
2021-12-16T13:59:09 < Xogium> sorry, what could be too slow for realtime ? The m0 cortex ? Yeah, probably
2021-12-16T14:02:34 < ventYl> Xogium: mostly because it doesn't have any FPU. I'd expect that opus does not work well in fixed point arithmetic. but maybe there is something similar to libmad out there
2021-12-16T14:03:45 < Xogium> oh makes sense
2021-12-16T14:10:36 < ventYl> 40mhz ARM should be perfectly capable of decoding mp3
2021-12-16T14:10:50 < ventYl> maybe not some ultra high bitrate one
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2021-12-16T14:31:30 < kakium69> rewrite in assembly
2021-12-16T14:32:49 < Xogium> well I had someone looking at my watch and they don't know the fuck is going on and why audio keeps being so out of sync from the visual part so I want to try my hand at making something ultra basic
2021-12-16T14:33:31 < Xogium> all I need is a rtc that won't drift too bad, spaker for audio, playing the correct files to say the time, and some way to set the correct time
2021-12-16T14:34:05 < Xogium> I don't need nothing fancy like alarms, date, bluetooth
2021-12-16T14:34:50 < kakium69> sd card based
2021-12-16T14:35:01 < kakium69> micro sd*
2021-12-16T14:35:38 < Xogium> hm, honestly… don't know. It would leave me largely enough space to store the audio, but you could probably lose it easily
2021-12-16T14:36:21 < kakium69> well it should have lock of some sort
2021-12-16T14:36:25 < kakium69> hatch
2021-12-16T14:36:35 < Xogium> hmm yeah
2021-12-16T14:37:02 < Xogium> but if I can store it in internal flash, wouldn't mind that either
2021-12-16T14:37:03 < kakium69> a piece of tape even if you go for rudimental solution
2021-12-16T14:37:27 < Xogium> 15 kbps opus would mean 1.8 kbyte of flash per second of audio
2021-12-16T14:38:00 < kakium69> mono 8bit 8000hz?
2021-12-16T14:38:05 < Xogium> ewww
2021-12-16T14:38:08 < Xogium> no
2021-12-16T14:38:28 < Xogium> that's 15 kbps opus 48khz mono
2021-12-16T14:39:04 < Xogium> I could go for lower sampling rate, too I guess
2021-12-16T14:39:13 < kakium69> I think 48khz is unnecessarily high
2021-12-16T14:39:19 < kakium69> if you really want save some space
2021-12-16T14:39:19 < Xogium> but yeah not 8000, don't want the watch to sound like a phone call :p
2021-12-16T14:40:15 < Xogium> would make it hard to hear properly on certain numbers
2021-12-16T14:40:40 < Xogium> maybe 16khz or 22.5 ? I think that exist
2021-12-16T14:40:59 < ventYl> well, original macintosh was able to perform speech synthesis in 1984, wasn't it?
2021-12-16T14:41:01 < Xogium> ah nah that's 22050 hz sorry
2021-12-16T14:41:04 < ventYl> how much oomph did it have?
2021-12-16T14:41:12 < ventYl> 128kB of ram and 8MHz CPU??
2021-12-16T14:41:37 < Xogium> good question
2021-12-16T14:41:49 < Xogium> but yeah the tts sure was good, for that time. Impressively good, even
2021-12-16T14:42:09 < Xogium> sadly tts on mcu is next to nonexistent, from what I could find
2021-12-16T14:42:44 < Xogium> so I'd probably go with real human voice and just playing back the samples
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2021-12-16T14:43:58 < Xogium> this is litterally the only demo of tts I ever found on stm32, and I couldn't even understand what it said lol
2021-12-16T14:44:47 < Xogium> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp36t1opRk0
2021-12-16T14:46:45 < ventYl> uh oh
2021-12-16T14:47:24 < ventYl> reminds me of english of one of my ex-coworkers
2021-12-16T14:47:28 < Xogium> this sounds workse than tts from the 80's on pc :D
2021-12-16T14:47:34 < Xogium> *worse
2021-12-16T14:48:14 < Xogium> kind of why I am trying to see if espeak-ng can be ported to stm32f7
2021-12-16T14:48:26 < Xogium> but this proves to be really annoying to port
2021-12-16T14:48:52 < ventYl> lemme check sources
2021-12-16T14:49:10 < ventYl> is espeak-ng different from "old" espeak a lot in terms of "performance" ?
2021-12-16T14:49:29 < ventYl> i used some espeak a while ago and it come out to be fairly good
2021-12-16T14:49:46 < Xogium> yeah, it pronounces things better, supports more languages, can handle emojis, and has more voices
2021-12-16T14:51:21 < Xogium> fact ng is a continuation of old espeak, after the community had no news from Jonathan Duddington
2021-12-16T14:51:28 < Xogium> we believe he's dead
2021-12-16T14:55:36 < ventYl> it even originates on ARM
2021-12-16T14:55:59 < Xogium> hm, does it ?
2021-12-16T14:58:52 < ventYl> 1995 Acorn / RISC OS, those ran ARM at that time IIRC
2021-12-16T14:58:59 < Xogium> ah yeah
2021-12-16T14:59:03 < Xogium> that's possible
2021-12-16T14:59:16 < ventYl> why it is annoying to be ported?
2021-12-16T14:59:31 < Xogium> requires *so much* ram…
2021-12-16T14:59:51 < Xogium> like I run out of ram on the f7… that's 512 kb :(
2021-12-16T15:01:37 < Xogium> I mean I could get away with initting the entire sdram and have 16 mb available. Sure that would work. But that would mean it would only work on the discovery kits ?
2021-12-16T15:01:39 < ventYl> that probably could be fixed. I see a lot of tables, which are most probably constant to lack const, thus compiler probably drops them into .data instead of into .text
2021-12-16T15:02:27 < ventYl> i'd have to take look onto map file, where is that ram consumed
2021-12-16T15:02:45 < Xogium> hmm when loading dictionary, I think
2021-12-16T15:02:55 < Xogium> for the most part
2021-12-16T15:04:19 < ventYl> I see
2021-12-16T15:04:31 < Xogium> and then once again when loading voices
2021-12-16T15:05:09 < Xogium> I don't know, maybe it tries to load everything and it would have to be modified to load only whatever is required ? I don't know a lot of code stuff, tbh
2021-12-16T15:05:58 < Xogium> or maybe it could be possible to not load into ram and just read from the flash
2021-12-16T15:06:22 < Xogium> 2 mbytes of flash compared to 512 kbytes of ram, after all
2021-12-16T15:06:35 < ventYl> I guess that it creates some internal structures based on what it loads from dictionary. that could be modified to have final version of data strctures in flash
2021-12-16T15:07:04 < ventYl> if those structures are not crazy complicated, that could be fairly simple to achieve
2021-12-16T15:07:18 < Xogium> yeah… I honestly have no clue there
2021-12-16T15:07:20 < ventYl> same for voices
2021-12-16T15:07:42 < ventYl> how big that code which failed to fit into RAM was? do you recall? just rough estimate
2021-12-16T15:07:44 < Xogium> I can sort of understand a bit what it does, but I'm lacking the knowledge to really go in deep, I guess. At least as of yet
2021-12-16T15:08:00 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-16T15:08:33 < Xogium> I think it was something like 500 kb ? I'd have to try again
2021-12-16T15:08:53 < Xogium> it wanted to malloc itself 300+ kb and mbed was like, hell no
2021-12-16T15:08:54 < ventYl> ok, so it is safe to assume that there is something like ~1MB of free flash
2021-12-16T15:09:39 < Xogium> yeah around that
2021-12-16T15:10:08 < Xogium> I mean, ideally you could want at least one language and one voice with internal resources only
2021-12-16T15:10:17 < Xogium> say english with default voice
2021-12-16T15:10:20 < Xogium> or something
2021-12-16T15:10:39 < Xogium> and then you could store the rest of espeak data on external flash, at the very least
2021-12-16T15:11:08 < kakium69> win 10 cortana using like 500MB of ram
2021-12-16T15:11:30 < Xogium> heh I disabled cortana entirely in mine
2021-12-16T15:11:43 < Xogium> I don't even have the button to talk to cortana anymore :D
2021-12-16T15:11:59 < ventYl> ok, dict compilation is like 1600 lines of code
2021-12-16T15:12:00 < ventYl> doable
2021-12-16T15:12:32 < ventYl> idea is that this step reads input dictionary and creates internal structures, so lookup is fast
2021-12-16T15:12:41 < Xogium> right
2021-12-16T15:12:53 < ventYl> you can skip this step entirely, if structures are pre-generated
2021-12-16T15:13:12 < ventYl> such pregenerated stuctures *hopefully* can be stored into flash without espeak realizing anything
2021-12-16T15:13:12 < Xogium> but how would you pre-generate them though ?
2021-12-16T15:13:44 < ventYl> well, you can dump it out of running espeak, that's probably the easiest method
2021-12-16T15:13:48 < Xogium> in theory they should be able to… since the flash can be accessed on the memory map. So you can memory map the flash
2021-12-16T15:14:17 < Xogium> it shouldn't notice anything fishy going on… I hope
2021-12-16T15:15:49 < Xogium> you have access to sram, sdram, internal flash and external qspi flash in the memory map, afaik
2021-12-16T15:16:53 < kakium69> lets see if this registery trick shuts down microsoft bloats
2021-12-16T15:17:25 < kakium69> reboot>
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2021-12-16T15:18:07 < Xogium> should be possible, I just honestly lack the programming knowledge to pull it off. Ironic because I understand what you say, but I lack the language knowledge to try and do it all
2021-12-16T15:19:54 < Xogium> I can sort of get by and learn slowly if people document their code well and put loads of useful comments all over the place, but I can't start from scratch and be like, well lets do that first. I can glue bits and pieces of existing code together to manage what I want though,even if I take 10 times it would take someone else :D
2021-12-16T15:21:13 < Xogium> but its a bit hardcore to code with tts ;)
2021-12-16T15:22:45 < ventYl> it's a bit hardcore trying to reverse engineer tss using just the tts itself :)
2021-12-16T15:24:06 < Xogium> lol yeah
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2021-12-16T15:25:52 < ventYl> ok, it might be easier than I thought as espeak pre-compiles dictionaries into binary form
2021-12-16T15:26:13 < ventYl> and then loads them afterwards
2021-12-16T15:26:31 < kakium69> one 300MB SearchApp.exe was removed and one about 100MB SearchApp.exe still running
2021-12-16T15:26:53 < Xogium> hmm that's what I thought
2021-12-16T15:26:57 < kakium69> Very nice easy 300MB
2021-12-16T15:27:29 < kakium69> crap.. it's back
2021-12-16T15:27:38 < kakium69> registery hack did nothing
2021-12-16T15:28:31 < ventYl> go buy more ram
2021-12-16T15:28:46 < Xogium> lol
2021-12-16T15:33:38 < kakium69> yeah I just might solder some ram chips now
2021-12-16T15:36:52 < kakium69> sweet telemetry has enabled keylogger consents without consents
2021-12-16T15:37:47 < kakium69> I might have agreed to it in some license agreement to consent to consent
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2021-12-16T15:41:10 < Xogium> :p
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2021-12-16T16:01:58 < qyx>  Xogium: I only remember it neede about 35 K of sram to initialize the codec
2021-12-16T16:02:27 < qyx> it was long time ago
2021-12-16T16:03:19 < qyx> I also tried codec2, it encoded audio into a 3200 bps stream on an overclocked L4 running at 140 MHz
2021-12-16T16:11:15 < Xogium> qyx: that's still nice
2021-12-16T16:12:41 < Xogium> but tts… hmm. It could work even better
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2021-12-16T16:18:12 < bitmask> alright, loading 3d objects is going pretty well, i should lprobably convert to the c++ bindings before I go any further though
2021-12-16T16:25:19 < ventYl> Xogium: ok, there seem to be some read/write being done on the structure, which holds the dictonary after being loaded from file, but that could be patched
2021-12-16T16:29:08  * Xogium blinks
2021-12-16T16:29:21 < Xogium> why would it write ? Read, I can understand… but write ?
2021-12-16T16:29:54 < ventYl> it looks like certain words may have effects on other follwing words during phonetization
2021-12-16T16:30:00 < ventYl> it writes down some flags
2021-12-16T16:31:13 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-16T16:31:33 < Xogium> right
2021-12-16T16:32:09 < ventYl> but portions which may be written to during runtime are relatively small. I assume that dictionary itself is read only
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2021-12-16T16:34:44 < ventYl> Xogium: do you know how large is the file containing compiled dictionary?
2021-12-16T16:34:54 < Xogium> I'd hope so
2021-12-16T16:35:15 < ventYl> one from PC would be fine
2021-12-16T16:35:21 < ventYl> just for rough estimate
2021-12-16T16:35:29 < Xogium> might need to spare some ram for the written stuff though… we don't want tu fuck up the flash ;)
2021-12-16T16:35:42 < Xogium> let me check
2021-12-16T16:36:22 < ventYl> well no, runtime structure is basically one struct with gazilion of entries. might be several kB at most. and huuuuuuuuge hashtable, which is probably read only, once completely loaded and initialized
2021-12-16T16:36:32 < Xogium> en_dict is 164 kb
2021-12-16T16:36:41 < ventYl> so you can effectively split it into read/write and read-only portion
2021-12-16T16:36:55 < Xogium> 166579  en_dict
2021-12-16T16:36:58 < ventYl> read/write would be in RAM, estimate to be ~2-3kB large, read-only would be in flash
2021-12-16T16:37:55 < Xogium> so it doesn't keep all the dict in a single giant blob, its per-language
2021-12-16T16:38:15 < Xogium> but yep 164 kb or so
2021-12-16T16:38:48 < ventYl> it compiles one dict per language apparently, maybe there is some generic bullshit such as emojis added everywhere
2021-12-16T16:39:05 < Xogium> yep I think there is
2021-12-16T16:39:07 < ventYl> but that seems to by dropped into each and every dictionary
2021-12-16T16:39:28 < ventYl> ok, so that would consume like 200kB of additional flash
2021-12-16T16:39:43 < ventYl> but also saved 200kB of RAM
2021-12-16T16:39:45 < Xogium> damn espeak is one hungry beast
2021-12-16T16:40:37 < ventYl> well, it has to have pronounciation of each known word
2021-12-16T16:40:43 < Xogium> yeah
2021-12-16T16:41:02 < Xogium> wonder if there'd be a way to optimize the size more. Probably not though
2021-12-16T16:41:38 < Xogium> still, its ok, 200 kb of flash can probably be spared for that, for english that is
2021-12-16T16:41:40 < ventYl> maybe later
2021-12-16T16:45:42 < Xogium> I wonder if emoji aren't added in that en_dict file
2021-12-16T16:45:57 < Xogium> would mean 164 kb total
2021-12-16T16:47:48 < Xogium> but there's this lang directory in espeak-ng-data
2021-12-16T16:47:54 < Xogium> not too sure what it contains
2021-12-16T16:49:31 < ventYl> well, there are language dictionary source files
2021-12-16T16:49:38 < ventYl> and those can get compiled into binaries
2021-12-16T16:49:49 < ventYl> which are later loaded
2021-12-16T16:49:54 < ventYl> ok, i'll play with it myself
2021-12-16T16:50:43 < Xogium> oh that could be it ? Hmm
2021-12-16T16:50:53 < Xogium> the en_dict is a compiled file, far as I can tell
2021-12-16T16:51:20 < ventYl> even the input looks a lot like perl script => compiled :D
2021-12-16T16:52:10 < Xogium> oh really ?
2021-12-16T16:52:21 < Xogium> I didn't know that looked like perl
2021-12-16T16:52:57 < Xogium> perl is… weird. It sounds like someone who likes to use this and that and these way too frequently :D
2021-12-16T16:55:18 < ventYl> ok, en_dict is compiled
2021-12-16T16:56:01 < Xogium> alright I wasn't crazy
2021-12-16T16:56:24 < ventYl> voice definitions seem to be rather small
2021-12-16T16:56:39 < ventYl> so it probably generates some stuff online
2021-12-16T16:59:50 < Xogium> how so ?
2021-12-16T17:00:54 < ventYl> online := it calculates some data after it is launched
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2021-12-16T17:03:24 < Xogium> oh, I didn't know that term
2021-12-16T17:03:57 < ventYl> online computation usually stands for something computed as it is needed, offline means that it is precomputed
2021-12-16T17:04:10 < Xogium> ah right, that makes sense
2021-12-16T17:04:25 < ventYl> dictionaries should be very simple
2021-12-16T17:04:41 < Xogium> I only knew the way you say offline/online when speaking of instant messaging or stuff like that
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2021-12-16T17:14:18 < bitmask> how do I wake up without sleeping first
2021-12-16T17:21:17 < ventYl> yourself, or micro?
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2021-12-16T17:22:51 < kakium69> bitmask: how to sleep before waking up first
2021-12-16T17:23:55 < bitmask> myself
2021-12-16T17:25:40 < kakium69> paraview pros here?
2021-12-16T17:33:11 < mawk>  no only orthoview sorry
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2021-12-16T17:46:44 < Xogium> ventYl: I vcan do tests if you want, I have the f7 right beside me :D
2021-12-16T17:46:52 < Xogium> *I can do
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2021-12-16T17:54:07 < ventYl> Xogium: if I patch standard espeak to have dictionary data hardcoded at compile time, will you be able to build it for your f7 ?
2021-12-16T17:55:16 < Xogium> I'm not too sure
2021-12-16T17:55:30 < Xogium> I could try though
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2021-12-16T17:55:38 < ventYl> how did you do that last time?
2021-12-16T17:55:58 < Xogium> I used mbed, I took down some notes but its been a while
2021-12-16T17:56:04 < Xogium> so will check my notes again
2021-12-16T17:56:09 < Xogium> but should be able to
2021-12-16T17:57:10 < Xogium> probably need to make it possible to build only one language at a time though
2021-12-16T17:57:25 < ventYl> do you still have a repo of that build anywhere?
2021-12-16T17:57:34 < Xogium> I kind of hacked at it until I got what I wanted last time but that was real dirty
2021-12-16T17:58:10 < Xogium> hmm nah :/ It was all local, frankly and I had kind of gave up on it for the most part since it was super hard
2021-12-16T17:58:20 < Xogium> and I didn't have much clue to what I was doing
2021-12-16T17:58:44 < Xogium> I figured that I would retry my hand again at it when I'd know more about mcu :p
2021-12-16T17:59:11 < ventYl> np, I was just hoping for starting with something, which can easilly be compiled on MCU without hacking it a lot
2021-12-16T17:59:19 < Xogium> yeah :/ sorry
2021-12-16T17:59:41 < Xogium> I was probably too ambicious to try that as a first project for mcu lol
2021-12-16T18:00:26 < ventYl> wouldn't say so
2021-12-16T18:00:41 < Xogium> yeah ? How's that
2021-12-16T18:01:06 < ventYl> it's interface to OS is rather clean, so basically that piece of code is quite portable
2021-12-16T18:01:30 < ventYl> you just need to be skilled with code hacking
2021-12-16T18:01:48 < Xogium> yeah… so better learn, I suppose
2021-12-16T18:02:26 < ventYl> ok, I'm gonna clean it up here a bit and then will take a look on it
2021-12-16T18:03:05 < ventYl> it should be fairly straightforward, hopefully. with one language and one voice encoded
2021-12-16T18:03:57 < Xogium> thanks a bunch, honestly
2021-12-16T18:04:15 < Xogium> this would be the first good tts ever for stm32
2021-12-16T18:06:24 < ventYl> if it fits. there's still a question if it will be able to generate waveform in real time
2021-12-16T18:06:51 < ventYl> and some form of output needs to be figured out. does f7 has any interface, which can be turned in hungry programmer's sound card?
2021-12-16T18:07:06 < Xogium> hmm the dev kit has an actual DAC
2021-12-16T18:07:35 < Xogium> with 4 microphones, 1 microphone jack, 1 output jack, and even RCA jack plugs
2021-12-16T18:07:37 < ventYl> so you can simply vomit 8/16 bit samples at it using GPIO?
2021-12-16T18:07:59 < ventYl> or is it some kind of I2S enabled stuff?
2021-12-16T18:08:07 < ventYl> hm, actually I2S would be pretty cool
2021-12-16T18:08:22 < Xogium> I believe it is SAI / i2s
2021-12-16T18:09:10 < Xogium> and man the mics are pretty darn good if I do say so myself
2021-12-16T18:09:14 < ventYl> yet it has to be able to generate sound online, 256kB of RAM is way too little to store samples before they are generated
2021-12-16T18:09:28 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-16T18:09:29 < ventYl> but I believe, that translation into phonemes can be done in batches
2021-12-16T18:09:46 < Xogium> we have 512 to spare though not just 256
2021-12-16T18:10:10 < Xogium> if it helps
2021-12-16T18:10:15 < ventYl> well, 11kHz mono 8bit counts for 11kB per second of record
2021-12-16T18:10:26 < ventYl> 256 thus counts for like 30 seconds
2021-12-16T18:10:36 < ventYl> ummm, that not that bad actually
2021-12-16T18:10:50 < Xogium> isn't espeak producing 22050 hz ? Hmm
2021-12-16T18:11:03 < ventYl> i think it is adjustable
2021-12-16T18:11:10 < Xogium> at least when I make it speak into wave files instead of raw pcm it stores them  at 22khz
2021-12-16T18:11:14 < Xogium> ah
2021-12-16T18:11:22 < ventYl> you can still drop every other sample :D
2021-12-16T18:11:27 < Xogium> true
2021-12-16T18:12:02 < Xogium> even at 11 khz, it should be able to still be understood
2021-12-16T18:12:02 < ventYl> result will be a potato, but I believe, that for encoding of human voice, everything about 4kHz of resolution is a luxury
2021-12-16T18:12:39 < Xogium> not mega great quality, but even then, it can't possibly be worse than the other tts demo I shared
2021-12-16T18:13:10 < ventYl> basic question is, if what espeak produces on PC, is generally usable
2021-12-16T18:13:37 < Xogium> yep. Its a bit robotic when you're not used to it… but
2021-12-16T18:13:51 < Xogium> definitely understandable
2021-12-16T18:13:52 < ventYl> i've ever used only one TTS, which I don't know how was even implemented
2021-12-16T18:14:09 < ventYl> surprisingly it ran on Sony A100 platform, which is also an ARM
2021-12-16T18:14:45 < ventYl> or A10, or how it is called. the platform used in last sony ericsson dumbphones
2021-12-16T18:15:09 < ventYl> one navigation system used vector maps and provided voice navigation, but maybe it was done using samples
2021-12-16T18:17:05 < Xogium> hmm hard to say
2021-12-16T18:17:27 < ventYl> i can try to launch it and check its name. IIRC it was opensource
2021-12-16T18:17:30 < Xogium> but the fact espeak uses formant for voices helps in this case
2021-12-16T18:17:44 < Xogium> makes for way small voices and such
2021-12-16T18:18:13 < ventYl> that format looks like specifies only harmonics for certain building blocks of language "sound"
2021-12-16T18:18:38 < ventYl> espeak then probably performs some kind of synthesis
2021-12-16T18:22:24 < Xogium> ah… yeah… probably
2021-12-16T18:28:54 < Xogium> but yeah… I hadn't even manage to get that far in the porting, like… couldn't even make it spew raw pcm data
2021-12-16T18:29:02 < Xogium> let alone send over i2s
2021-12-16T18:30:26 < Xogium> but at least mbed had the audio stuff ported from the bsp
2021-12-16T18:31:44 < Xogium> the most I've done with audio currently on f7 is fool around with the audio loop demo mbed program
2021-12-16T18:32:21 < Xogium> basically captures audio from the microphones onboard and plays it back on headphone jack output
2021-12-16T18:36:56 < ventYl> at least you know how to control audio out
2021-12-16T18:37:16 < Xogium> :D yeah
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2021-12-16T20:00:30 < ventYl> Xogium: can you point me to some demo app which can quickly made buildable? so I have something i can try espeak integrate into?
2021-12-16T20:02:36 < Xogium> ventYl: you mean like integrates with the libespeak-ng ?
2021-12-16T20:03:34 < Xogium> hmm well there is speech-dispatcher that offers a demo program so you can quickly test the voice of installed module
2021-12-16T20:03:48 < Xogium> its normally used by gui screen reader, but it provides the spd-say program
2021-12-16T20:04:14 < Xogium> and it links against libespeak-ng, or can
2021-12-16T20:04:33 < Xogium> otherwise there's espeakup
2021-12-16T20:04:48 < Xogium> which is a software bridge between the speakup kernel screen reader and espeak
2021-12-16T20:06:13 < Xogium> https://github.com/linux-speakup/espeakup
2021-12-16T20:06:33 < Xogium> don't think it provides any demo way to try, but you could try the linking and such
2021-12-16T20:27:29 < ventYl> Xogium: no, I mean on mbed side
2021-12-16T20:27:36 < Xogium> ah
2021-12-16T20:28:16 < ventYl> like: build this and if you had an stm32f7 w/ DAC you can generate sine wave. wow
2021-12-16T20:28:28 < Xogium> :D
2021-12-16T20:28:38 < Xogium> let me see
2021-12-16T20:33:31 < Xogium> all I can honestly find that is customized for mbed on the f7 discovery kit is the audio loopback demo…
2021-12-16T20:33:44 < ventYl> that's sufficient
2021-12-16T20:34:57 < Xogium> ah alright
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2021-12-16T20:36:30 < ventYl> like, this whole task seems to be so trivial, someone would already done that. so I must have missed some important blocker, right?
2021-12-16T20:37:13 < Xogium> https://os.mbed.com/teams/ST/code/DISCO-F769NI_AUDIO_demo/
2021-12-16T20:40:07 < Xogium> I can more or less understand that code
2021-12-16T20:40:36 < ventYl> ]';[LKJHGYFTRDESWAQQawedrftgyhujikolp;[';l.,kmjnhbgfvcdxsza<>AZSXDCFVGBHNJMK,L;'\
2021-12-16T20:40:42 < ventYl> FUCK
2021-12-16T20:40:49 < Steffanx> Nice password 
2021-12-16T20:41:31  * Xogium wonders f fuck was part of it
2021-12-16T20:41:36 < Xogium> :p
2021-12-16T20:50:46 < ventYl> ah, the fuck is this shit?
2021-12-16T20:51:01 < ventYl> mbed has some exotic buildsystem, hasn't it?
2021-12-16T20:51:20 < Xogium> yeah it ain,t bare metal, its a rtos
2021-12-16T20:51:38 < Xogium> so like the bunch of other rtos, zephyr has west
2021-12-16T20:51:42 < ventYl> that would be ok
2021-12-16T20:52:19 < ventYl> just, this shit is just one bare C file flying freely in the wind, no readme no sign of build instructions no nothing
2021-12-16T20:54:51 < Xogium> yeah you've got to import with mbed import and then mbed compile and all of that
2021-12-16T20:55:10 < Xogium> but yeah I agree its a total mess
2021-12-16T20:55:23 < Xogium> frankly if I could get away with bare metal, I wonder if I should
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2021-12-16T20:57:11 < Xogium> would it be that hardcore to use bare metal, honestly ?
2021-12-16T20:57:28 < Xogium> like would I really need a rtos for this ?
2021-12-16T21:00:53 < ventYl> i can imagine certain tasks would be optically easier
2021-12-16T21:01:00 < ventYl> but it can definitely be done bare metal
2021-12-16T21:01:07 < ventYl> you just have to get replacement for BSP
2021-12-16T21:01:32 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-16T21:01:55 < Xogium> well I was more asking for that for you since I know mbed is a mess to get going
2021-12-16T21:02:20 < Xogium> and I mean you seem willing to help with espeak but mbed sounds far out of scope there
2021-12-16T21:03:47 < ventYl> well, really the only thing needed is something which can serve to set up whatever that DAC is connected to
2021-12-16T21:04:02 < ventYl> if locm3 has support for f7, good
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2021-12-16T21:09:20 < Xogium> I didn't know about locm3
2021-12-16T21:10:26 < Xogium> apparently readme says it supports stm32f7
2021-12-16T21:11:19 < ventYl> yeah, spi seems to be supported
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2021-12-16T21:13:32 < Xogium> haha nice karlp contributes there
2021-12-16T21:15:49 < Xogium> well damn, there are 0 examples for f7 in the examples repo for locm3
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2021-12-16T21:17:22 < fenugrec> he's the main maintainer since... before 2014 at least
2021-12-16T21:17:32 < ventYl> I also contribute there with useless shit noone uses
2021-12-16T21:18:21 < fenugrec> funny, I was just picking bits and pieces through the locm3-examples repo these past few days... took stuff from some F4, Tiva, and H107 examples
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2021-12-16T21:31:13 < ventYl> damn autohell for espeak is broken if you attempt to do out-of-source build
2021-12-16T21:32:07 < Xogium> autohell ?
2021-12-16T21:32:32 < Xogium> is that like automated travel straight to hell ? :D
2021-12-16T21:32:51 < ventYl> automake & autoconf & friends. commonly nicknamed autohell because it looks like one
2021-12-16T21:33:20 < BrainDamage> autofools
2021-12-16T21:35:04 < Xogium> ooh nice
2021-12-16T21:35:11 < Xogium> I didn't know they did that :D
2021-12-16T21:35:25 < Xogium> I like the autofools
2021-12-16T21:35:39 < ventYl> it's brutally outdated
2021-12-16T21:37:05 < Xogium> yeah :/
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2021-12-16T21:51:25 < ventYl> it even removed debugging symbols by default
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2021-12-16T21:54:31 < Xogium> darn that is not very nice
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2021-12-16T22:36:17 < HelloShitty> karlp: I just saw your link. Will compare to my versin and check what I was doing wrong. Thanks
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2021-12-16T22:50:47 < HelloShitty> ok, I tested and it's still not good. I still the the same clocks as if I was using default clocks
2021-12-16T22:57:25 < Xogium> ventYl: will get some rest for now :) thanks again for trying to port espeak, I really appreciate it
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2021-12-16T23:41:53 < catphish> public service announcement: if your employer panic bought STM32, for the love of god please resell them when the shortage ends and don't dump them in landfill, even if you have to do it with a person ebay account
2021-12-16T23:46:02 < Mangy_Dog> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
2021-12-16T23:46:05 < Mangy_Dog> send ssome to me
2021-12-16T23:46:44 < PaulFertser> Talking about dumps, does anyone probably have a broken thinkpad keyboard pending dumping? I'd like to get a trackpoint module off one.
2021-12-16T23:47:31 < Mangy_Dog> at this point id gladly take f103cbs and f4s even if theyre recycled
2021-12-16T23:49:40 < catphish> does anyone know the story of "CS32F103" are these legitimate, are they available? who made them, did they stop?
2021-12-16T23:57:15 < Steffanx> We did "panic" buy atsam something catphish, only 10k or so
2021-12-16T23:58:09 < kakium69> any news about shortage?
2021-12-16T23:58:46 < kakium69> Steffanx: what else you panic buyed?
2021-12-16T23:58:49 < Steffanx> Might not even use them
2021-12-16T23:58:58 < Steffanx> Nothing yet, kakium69 
2021-12-16T23:59:03 < kakium69> just one model of atsam?
2021-12-16T23:59:29 < Steffanx> Yeah
2021-12-16T23:59:38 < Steffanx> The only one available 😅
2021-12-16T23:59:45 < Steffanx> Not anymore.
--- Day changed Fri Dec 17 2021
2021-12-17T00:00:09 < kakium69> not available anymore?
2021-12-17T00:00:21 < kakium69> or others have became available?
2021-12-17T00:00:44 < Steffanx> Not available anymore since we did the panic buy
2021-12-17T00:00:44 < kakium69> does the shortage put strain to your companies?
2021-12-17T00:01:08 < Steffanx> My companies? Or work. 
2021-12-17T00:01:15 < Steffanx> Hell yes
2021-12-17T00:01:45 < kakium69> how?
2021-12-17T00:01:51 < Steffanx> Mainly the hardware engineers are having a new day job... finding replacement parts
2021-12-17T00:02:09 < kakium69> do you go as far as picking projects
2021-12-17T00:02:22 < kakium69> "yeah this thing should have that and that part so no"
2021-12-17T00:02:33 < Steffanx> No.
2021-12-17T00:03:41 < kakium69> what companies you have?
2021-12-17T00:03:48 < Steffanx> I have no company.
2021-12-17T00:03:58 < Steffanx> I just work for my employer 
2021-12-17T00:04:15 < Steffanx> But thats still "we" ;)
2021-12-17T00:05:17 < kakium69> our*
2021-12-17T00:07:59 < Steffanx> I just like to know what my colleagues are up to, unlike some of my other colleagues, they don't care.
2021-12-17T00:08:48 < PaulFertser> catphish: https://www.cnx-software.com/2019/02/10/cs32-mcu-stm32-clone-bluepill-board/
2021-12-17T00:09:09 < fenugrec> oh wow, apparently linux cdc-acm drivers automatically have some Echo mode on... my device was sending a "hello" message on bootup and having it echo'd back to itself, causing mayhem
2021-12-17T00:09:31 < fenugrec> and to think I suspected my code of being buggy
2021-12-17T00:09:42 < PaulFertser> I guess dongs' girl would tell if cs32f103 is obtainable
2021-12-17T00:10:04 < catphish> PaulFertser: i guess my question applies to GD32 too :)
2021-12-17T00:10:15 < PaulFertser> fenugrec: probably it's default tty settings, not cdc-acm specifically.
2021-12-17T00:10:40 < PaulFertser> Wow https://www.ckscup.com/home.php this is supposed to be CKS website.
2021-12-17T00:10:54 < catphish> but being a perfect clone of F103 is really interesting
2021-12-17T00:11:20 < catphish> PaulFertser: where did they go though? information on them seems scarce
2021-12-17T00:12:31 < fenugrec> PaulFertser, agreed, probably ICANON and all those garbage modes nobody has ever used since 93
2021-12-17T00:12:41 < catphish> if they'd "legitimately" made a perfect copy of F103, they should be selling millions :) but i know little about chinese chip fab process
2021-12-17T00:19:56 < PaulFertser> Guess all the clones are sold out too if you look at blue pill prices.
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2021-12-17T00:32:09 < catphish> PaulFertser: yeah seems that way
2021-12-17T00:34:04 < catphish> the inability to buy anything with CAN is getting really quite annoying now
2021-12-17T00:34:21 < catphish> JLC don't have ANY CAN controllers in stock any more
2021-12-17T00:34:32 < fenugrec> I have a few F042s
2021-12-17T00:35:31 < catphish> if i want MCP2515 i have to go through-hole
2021-12-17T00:36:28 < catphish> some MCP1510 still available in TSSOP, might be time to panic buy :)
2021-12-17T00:44:24 < kakium69> SN65HVD230?
2021-12-17T00:46:21 < kakium69> https://www.ti.com/cn/lit/ds/slos346h/slos346h.pdf
2021-12-17T00:46:29 < kakium69> so8
2021-12-17T00:51:10 < ventYl> Mangy_Dog: I have one, in apparently dead stlink/v2
2021-12-17T00:51:32 < ventYl> yet, MCU itself is worky, just SWD is somehow fucked up
2021-12-17T00:53:45 < qyx> Mangy_Dog: I can send you some f105/f107, those are basically f103 + ethernet + usb
2021-12-17T00:54:00 < qyx> also some f103, i will never use them
2021-12-17T01:00:40 < Mangy_Dog> ooohhh
2021-12-17T01:00:44 < Mangy_Dog> cb/c8?
2021-12-17T01:01:37 < qyx> 48 pin f103, 64 pin f105/7
2021-12-17T01:01:52 < qyx> I'll check during weekend
2021-12-17T01:02:15 < Mangy_Dog> really no use for them?
2021-12-17T01:08:46 < Steffanx> Making Mangy_Dog happy is a use
2021-12-17T01:09:05 < Mangy_Dog> :D
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2021-12-17T10:08:58 < Xogium> morning
2021-12-17T10:11:24 < jpa-> hello
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2021-12-17T10:12:52 < Steffanx> I wish you a good morning 
2021-12-17T10:16:16 < ventYl> Xogium: morning. finally, i've been able to hook espeak into debugger. so far it looks promising
2021-12-17T10:17:36 < Xogium> ventYl: really ? Wow, that's great news !
2021-12-17T10:18:36 < Xogium> with your rework, you mean, or just straight like this ?
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2021-12-17T10:24:44 < ventYl> Xogium: i haven't touched it yet, just loaded it into debugger and went around dictionary loading code. it seems, that there is no major external structure and that dictionary itself is rather trivial.
2021-12-17T10:25:04 < ventYl> it should be possible to write C code, which will generate C code containing that structure statically compiled
2021-12-17T10:25:15 < ventYl> so it can be placed into flash
2021-12-17T10:26:34 < mawk> or macros
2021-12-17T10:26:36 < mawk> who doesn't like macros
2021-12-17T10:28:18 < Xogium> depends what kind of macros I guess
2021-12-17T10:28:39 < Xogium> the kind I tend to like are the ones made with macrodroid so far
2021-12-17T10:28:49 < Xogium> this tool's damn powerful
2021-12-17T10:28:58 < ventYl> in the end, that doesn't matter. it would only matter if I was able to pull some binary straight from running process and load it as some blob. but that won't be possible as that structure is full of pointers
2021-12-17T10:29:15 < ventYl> macrodroid? haven't heard of that
2021-12-17T10:29:51 < Xogium> its to make powerhouse macros on android devices
2021-12-17T10:30:09 < Xogium> some people even use it to automatically click skip ad button on youtube lol
2021-12-17T10:30:10 < ventYl> ah, not for me
2021-12-17T10:30:38 < Xogium> and I use it a lot to make accessibility shortcuts
2021-12-17T10:31:06 < ventYl> in automotive SDK, i've seen rather fugly macro, which technically was a technological marvel
2021-12-17T10:31:24 < ventYl> it provided an access to configuration, but masked the way, how this particular piece of configuration was provided
2021-12-17T10:31:25 < Xogium> I have a bit reduced motor skills for my hands, so I simplify some actions with minimal gestures. Like if the phone rings I pick it up and putit against my ear and it answer the call
2021-12-17T10:32:04 < ventYl> it could be fixed, provided by precompile build variant or by post-build build variant. in all three cases internal data structure looked and behaved completely different, yet calling code looked the same
2021-12-17T10:32:15 < Xogium> uh… weird
2021-12-17T10:32:44 < ventYl> i gave up understanding how it works at third or fourth level of nesting
2021-12-17T10:34:20 < Xogium> probably the best thing to do for your sanity
2021-12-17T10:35:25 < Xogium> but yeah macrodroid is very useful, makes answering calls a lot easier, can also press buttons for me during specific calls, like if I press volume down button in my voicemails it delete the message I just listened to
2021-12-17T10:35:51 < ventYl> IIRC I came accross it just because memory protection was causing ECU to reboot somewhere inside that macro
2021-12-17T10:39:47 < mawk> C macros are the best macros Xogium 
2021-12-17T10:40:42 < Xogium> mawk: how's that
2021-12-17T10:40:58 < mawk> what do you mean
2021-12-17T10:41:08 < mawk> this statement is so self-evident it doesn't need any clarification
2021-12-17T10:41:31 < Xogium> well maybe if you know C :D
2021-12-17T10:42:16 < mawk> well the things that start with #
2021-12-17T10:42:24 < mawk> #define crap(x) (x*2)
2021-12-17T10:42:25 < xnand> Commands: cache decide nar
2021-12-17T10:42:32 < mawk> #nar
2021-12-17T10:42:32 < xnand> Use `#narUrl /nix/store/<path>` to query URL of the respective NAR
2021-12-17T10:42:41 < mawk> #nar /nix/store/../../../../../etc/passwd
2021-12-17T10:42:41 < xnand> Path parse error - Empty name
2021-12-17T10:42:57 < mawk> #narUrl /nix/store/../../../../../etc/passwd
2021-12-17T10:42:57 < xnand> Path parse error - Empty name
2021-12-17T10:44:37 < Xogium> I think the nand flash bugged
2021-12-17T10:44:39 < Xogium> :p
2021-12-17T10:44:44 < mawk> yeah
2021-12-17T10:44:54 < Xogium> there must be some factory bad blocks
2021-12-17T10:45:01 < ventYl> there's one extremely powerful "macro"
2021-12-17T10:45:04 < ventYl> _Generic
2021-12-17T10:45:15 < mawk> in my laptop RAM there is one RAM address that is bad
2021-12-17T10:45:24 < mawk> so I made a warranty claim and I got a new one for free
2021-12-17T10:45:27 < ventYl> oh, it is not a macro, it is... well, what it is. an operator?
2021-12-17T10:45:32 < mawk> a type
2021-12-17T10:45:34 < Xogium> bad ? As in… the chip is having a bad region ?
2021-12-17T10:45:37 < mawk> yeah
2021-12-17T10:45:46 < mawk> a bit is stuck high
2021-12-17T10:45:49 < ventYl> is that RAM still replacable?
2021-12-17T10:45:54 < mawk> yeah it's just ram sticks
2021-12-17T10:45:59 < mawk> smaller format since it's a laptop
2021-12-17T10:46:06 < mawk> so I blacklisted that address in linux and I can still use the defective stick
2021-12-17T10:46:07 < Xogium> sorry for caps
2021-12-17T10:46:16 < mawk> which caps Xogium 
2021-12-17T10:46:23 < mawk> and I added the new warranty stick alongside the old stick
2021-12-17T10:46:27 < mawk> and now I have 64 GiB of ram
2021-12-17T10:46:28 < ventYl> i know that. just last two of my laptops have RAM soldered
2021-12-17T10:46:28 < Xogium> oh wow I somehow turned caps on after sending a message or…
2021-12-17T10:46:29 < mawk> win win
2021-12-17T10:46:34 < Xogium> weird
2021-12-17T10:46:54 < mawk> because you're a apple fan ventYl ?
2021-12-17T10:47:21 < ventYl> only one of them is apple, and that particular piece is like 12 years old. and complete crap
2021-12-17T10:47:38 < ventYl> that single unit has failed in pretty much every way it could. in parallel
2021-12-17T10:48:05 < mawk> lol
2021-12-17T10:48:40 < Xogium> I heard they decided to put 12v regulator right next to nand controller on the recent macbook
2021-12-17T10:48:44 < Xogium> or something like that
2021-12-17T10:48:59 < mawk> the more volts the more faster the flash is working
2021-12-17T10:49:01 < mawk> so it makes total sense
2021-12-17T10:49:05 < ventYl> result is, that it is kinda useful and also useless. depends on if you decide to turn it on, or not
2021-12-17T10:49:52 < ventYl> like, it works, but as hinges are extremely loose, something on mainboard died, thus wifi doesn't work and battery turned itself into stratospheric baloon, it is of little use anyway
2021-12-17T10:50:16 < ventYl> it also has only one USB port and no ethernet, so what are you going to do with it anyway?
2021-12-17T10:50:33 < Xogium> balloon… you mean it expanded ?
2021-12-17T10:50:48 < ventYl> yeah, while sitting in shelf
2021-12-17T10:50:54 < Xogium> sounds dangerous
2021-12-17T10:50:57 < mawk> did you blow in it by accident?
2021-12-17T10:51:42 < mawk> https://xkcd.com/1395/
2021-12-17T10:52:08 < Xogium> I heard that battery that suddenly become bloated are full of gas that is toxic
2021-12-17T10:52:51 < Xogium> battery expands to avoid it escaping into the air or something
2021-12-17T10:53:19 < ventYl> I have removed it to prevent rupture
2021-12-17T10:53:43 < Xogium> I wonder though, if the pressure keeps increasing still
2021-12-17T10:53:44 < ventYl> and put it in the middle of room onto ceramic floor to prevent fire if it decided to make some special effects
2021-12-17T10:54:55 < ventYl> mawk: :D
2021-12-17T10:55:08 < Xogium> the last time I found a battery that had gotten bloated it was in a phone with a still removable battery, I took away the back panel to remove it, or rather, the back panel flew off like it was on a giant spring
2021-12-17T10:56:23 < Steffanx> Did you find the cover back?
2021-12-17T10:56:41 < Xogium> nop, needed a pair of sighted eyes to find where it went off to
2021-12-17T10:57:49 < mawk> you should get a pet monkey Xogium 
2021-12-17T10:57:53 < mawk> I'm sure it's way better than a dog
2021-12-17T10:57:56 < mawk> you can talk to the monkey
2021-12-17T10:57:58 < mawk> "go find cover"
2021-12-17T10:58:30 < Xogium> wasn't that far off, but yeah couldn't find it. It's freaking annoying to lose stuff, I swear… Have to crawl all over the floor to  feel around to figure where it went
2021-12-17T10:59:40 < Xogium> I've never seen what monkeys look like
2021-12-17T10:59:43 < Xogium> always interested me
2021-12-17T10:59:59 < Xogium> like the face, the hands… or well I guess its still called paws
2021-12-17T11:01:31 < ventYl> basic layout is the same, just the features have different parameters, are larger, smaller, closer of further apart
2021-12-17T11:01:33 < Xogium> but don't think monkeys would like having my hands in their face hehe
2021-12-17T11:03:29 < ventYl> dead monkeys can't protest
2021-12-17T11:04:11 < Xogium> it's always fun to find new objects to explore, too. I mean, say you give me a plane made of legos, I'll have a good idea how it is in legos, but somehow I can't figure out the real thing from the lego version. The first time I went to france, at the end of the flight the pilot asked me if I had ever touched a plane, I hadn't. He took me all the way up on his shoulders so I could touch on of the wings
2021-12-17T11:05:18 < Xogium> that was pretty cool
2021-12-17T11:07:09 < Xogium> but yeah… I don't like planes. Honestly, it's too small space with too many people in
2021-12-17T11:07:40 < Xogium> only part where it's fun is the take off and landing
2021-12-17T11:08:05 < ventYl> and turbulences
2021-12-17T11:08:12 < Xogium> yeah small ones are ok
2021-12-17T11:08:14 < ventYl> yet, only if you can see the wing
2021-12-17T11:08:26 < mawk> if you pay enough you can have more room
2021-12-17T11:09:19 < Xogium> but the second time I took the plane, pilot went like, we're going to go through some turbulances folks, make sure your seatbelt is on and your tablet is put away
2021-12-17T11:09:23 < ventYl> not in short- to medium flights in europe mainland. there the difference is if you are in front of or behind the paravan
2021-12-17T11:09:30 < Xogium> er okaaay but I'm sorry mister, we were eating
2021-12-17T11:10:31 < Xogium> I was right next to the window, too
2021-12-17T11:10:35 < mawk> paravent is french for wind shield (not car windshield)
2021-12-17T11:11:22 < Xogium> its kinda crazy how planes actually manage to fly off while being so heavy
2021-12-17T11:11:37 < ventYl> how do french people call that movable separation panel, which separates 1st class from the rest? in narro body jetliners?
2021-12-17T11:11:53 < ventYl> Xogium: that craziness is called aerodynamics :)
2021-12-17T11:13:06 < Xogium> I had that throught every time I took a plane… and then few seconds later, must fall very fast if it fails, though… shut up brain
2021-12-17T11:13:09 < ventYl> a recruiter wanted to inform me about that greate remote position in Prague. I replied that I am interested, but he has to decide, whether that position is remote, or it is in Prague. He didn't come back to me since then
2021-12-17T11:13:19 < mawk> same thing ventYl , paravent probably
2021-12-17T11:13:25 < mawk> or maybe just curtain
2021-12-17T11:13:27 < Xogium> *I had that thought
2021-12-17T11:13:52 < mawk> it doesn't fall that fast when it fails
2021-12-17T11:14:00 < mawk> it's gliding
2021-12-17T11:14:29 < Xogium> yeah, I suppose
2021-12-17T11:14:36 < ventYl> Xogium: actually, it is interesting, how slow an airplane can fly without falling. Typical takeoff speed for jetliner is roughly 160 miles per hour 
2021-12-17T11:14:55 < Xogium> really ?
2021-12-17T11:15:01 < Xogium> it sure felt faster than that
2021-12-17T11:15:04 < ventYl> which is rather slow given the cruise speeds and the fact that lift probably does not scale linearly with speed
2021-12-17T11:17:30 < ventYl> mawk: if you manage to stall the plane, it won't glide anymore until you reach certain speed. too bad if you are too low to reach it before "landing"
2021-12-17T11:17:40 < ventYl> that's what happened to first Airbus A320
2021-12-17T11:17:45 < ventYl> or A380, IDK
2021-12-17T11:21:00 < Xogium> no fun
2021-12-17T11:24:09 < ventYl> pilots did some kind of mistake, IIRC. they put plane outside of it's flying envelope
2021-12-17T11:24:20 < ventYl> or what's the proper term for it
2021-12-17T11:26:39 < Xogium> man, stm32f7 warms up quite a bit more when running linux, even with just a minimal kernel and userspace
2021-12-17T11:27:03 < Xogium> I'd say 38 or 39, maybe 40C
2021-12-17T11:29:37 < Xogium> at any rate it is warm enough that I can feel it just touching the board
2021-12-17T11:32:00 < ventYl> do you think it will be of any use? how much % of CPU power does just bare linux consume?
2021-12-17T11:37:40 < ventYl> Jeffrey has decided, that the position is remote
2021-12-17T11:37:58 < ventYl> which I think, will later turn out to be "remote as long a you'll move to Prague"
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2021-12-17T11:47:28 < Xogium> ventYl: no idea… I mostly did that just for the hell of doing it :p
2021-12-17T11:48:08 < Xogium> hm load average on linux is 0.00
2021-12-17T11:48:16 < ventYl> is it too rude to simply and straight tell people on dickedin that they are idiots?
2021-12-17T11:48:37 < Xogium> hmm. I'd say depends who you ask
2021-12-17T11:48:39 < ventYl> Xogium: that's only for userspace, you have to check, how much % of CPU is consumed in sys
2021-12-17T11:48:58 < Xogium> oh, how do I do that ?
2021-12-17T11:49:30 < ventYl> huh, that's good question. tools like top show it in the summary but IDK where they get that info
2021-12-17T11:49:57 < Xogium> yeah hmm mini busybox has no top
2021-12-17T11:50:39 < ventYl> it would probably be of little use to you
2021-12-17T11:51:15 < Xogium> still I'm impressed just how fast it boots up… plug in ethernet cable and bam linux login prompt in about 3 seconds -- I disabled all the boot delay in u-boot :p
2021-12-17T11:51:36 < ventYl> it may be that top traverses accross /proc/<pid> nodes and sums CPU usage data there. IIRC, they are separated into CPU time, user time and real time
2021-12-17T11:52:02 < ventYl> are you powering it via that ethernet using PoE?
2021-12-17T11:52:07 < Xogium> yea
2021-12-17T11:52:17 < ventYl> ok, then 3 secs is quite an impressive time
2021-12-17T11:52:45 < Xogium> yeah my switch doesn't joke around it seems
2021-12-17T11:53:25 < Xogium> and lets see, 2.5w max power draw. Not bad
2021-12-17T11:57:05 < Xogium> but yeah I'm guessing it warms up more than with mbed or any rtos really because its got a lot more stuff to manage, tasks, threads, kernel threads and all of that
2021-12-17T12:00:07 < ventYl> well, managing them is not really a lot of burden. the issue probably is that those kernel threads actually do a lot more than some RTOS
2021-12-17T12:00:27 < Xogium> yeah linux is more complex
2021-12-17T12:00:42 < ventYl> I still wonder how it works, MMU-less
2021-12-17T12:00:59 < Xogium> I'm not too sure of the internals
2021-12-17T12:01:38 < Xogium> but what I know is that there used to be uclinux, which was a fork of linux made for MMU-less devices, which since then merged back in the official linux kernel
2021-12-17T12:04:05 < Xogium> someone actually went even more over the top than me
2021-12-17T12:04:27 < Xogium> he ran linux like this, only on the internal resources of thestm32f7 dev kit
2021-12-17T12:04:38 < Xogium> so on only 2 mbytes of flash and 512 kbytes of ram
2021-12-17T12:06:15 < Xogium> https://lwn.net/Articles/741494/
2021-12-17T12:06:37 < Xogium> there's a whole serie on this
2021-12-17T12:12:08 < karlp> HelloShitty: show me what you've got now, I can keep looking
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2021-12-17T12:18:45 < karlp> ventYl: Xogium  spi on f7 may have some quirks, initial contributor said it was spiv2, later people have said it's totally different, I don't think I've sorted it out yet
2021-12-17T12:19:09 < ventYl> karlp: is it for f7 and not h7?
2021-12-17T12:19:19 < ventYl> h7 SPI is different, I know that
2021-12-17T12:19:46 < karlp> fenugrec: there's no f7 examples because the examples repo is unmaintainable and I refuse to copypasta them in, there's certainly none that take advatange of any of the big f7 disco boards.
2021-12-17T12:20:37 < karlp> has anyone told catphish about all the stm32s and nrf52s goign into single use covid tests?
2021-12-17T12:21:18 < Xogium> single use covid test ?
2021-12-17T12:21:41 < ventYl> karlp: those are probably classified as biohazard waste and burned in furnaces :(
2021-12-17T12:22:05 < Xogium> what a waste of chips
2021-12-17T12:23:50 < Xogium> I think I have one of the big f7, like there might be only one above it. I'm not sure, st listing is a bit confusing, f769 dev kit
2021-12-17T12:27:53 < karlp> ventYl: re spi, could be, yes, just mentioning it in case there are surprises still?
2021-12-17T12:28:05 < karlp> or just my bad memory
2021-12-17T12:28:22 < ventYl> karlp: ah ok, I have just checked the RM0410 and F7 has the same SPI as H7
2021-12-17T12:28:22 < karlp> ventYl: I guarantee they're just thrown in consumer waste like any other consumer product...
2021-12-17T12:28:44 < karlp> these were end user covid tests, not single use hospital stuff going into the bio bins.
2021-12-17T12:29:22 < ventYl> more motivation for me to actually finish that damn H7 SPI pull request hanging in locm3 for months
2021-12-17T12:34:12 < karlp> that's the one you and ... the air dudes, whatð's his name again were talking about right?
2021-12-17T12:35:23 < ventYl> that is kinda unrelated. I did that PR in belief, that only H7 has different SPI as the whole MCU is simply weird
2021-12-17T12:35:37 < ventYl> but if F7 SPI is the same, my PR would work here as well
2021-12-17T12:36:12 < karlp> eh, not looking at it today anyway
2021-12-17T12:36:25 < karlp> trying to do some 3d tests and send out pcbs before christmas break :)
2021-12-17T12:36:46 < karlp> castelled pads _and_ selective edge plating!
2021-12-17T12:36:52 < karlp> going all in on the pcb technology train
2021-12-17T12:37:08 < ventYl> karlp: no prob, i have to take some action anyway. I am just blocked by different more interesting stuff
2021-12-17T12:37:23 < ventYl> like, not blocked, just more interesting :)
2021-12-17T12:37:43 < karlp> :)
2021-12-17T12:45:13 < qyx> I though f7 SPI is spiv2
2021-12-17T12:45:21 < qyx> hm
2021-12-17T12:50:31 < ventYl> well, no. it is actually v3
2021-12-17T13:08:10 < zyp> I'm thinking about making a chainable indicator board using https://eu.mouser.com/datasheet/2/40/OpenEndedCard_Edge_00_9159-1125649.pdf to join them together
2021-12-17T13:09:24 < zyp> it'll be a simple design with just a chain of adressable leds, so I though about having jlcpcb assemble it, but I want leds on both sides
2021-12-17T13:09:53 < zyp> so I'm considering just doing two 0.8mm boards back to back
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2021-12-17T14:16:07 < Xogium> man, sometimes I so wish I could design my own boards and have them built… this looks like, so damn cool
2021-12-17T14:20:16 < Xogium> it feels like all my ideas will just be that forever, I guess. At least for making new stuff. I can play with dev kits and learn, I enjoy that even, but I wish I could make my own hardware
2021-12-17T14:22:27 < veverak> you can learn how to make PCBs
2021-12-17T14:22:41 < veverak> but I found it healps greatly if you know people IRL that can teach you
2021-12-17T14:22:50 < Xogium> yeah… not really, none of the design tools are made for blind people after all
2021-12-17T14:25:19 < Xogium> even board schematics are visual and I need someone to look over them for me
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2021-12-17T14:25:35 < Xogium> makes me wonder why they couldn't just write down in text version or something
2021-12-17T14:25:49 < ventYl> Xogium: uhm, kicad essentially has textual file format and it is like net - to - pin@package and net - to - net connection after all
2021-12-17T14:26:13 < Xogium> ventYl: right, but it is the ui itself that is unusable
2021-12-17T14:26:29 < ventYl> do you really need it for circuit design after all?
2021-12-17T14:26:48 < Xogium> well, people use it, so I'd say yes ?
2021-12-17T14:26:55 < Xogium> but what do I know
2021-12-17T14:27:17 < ventYl> I'd say that people use it just because it is more convenient given majority's abilities
2021-12-17T14:27:36 < ventYl> for you plain textual representation would probably be better, tossing GUI away completely I guess
2021-12-17T14:29:18 < Xogium> woah sorry my znc choked on a packet ;)
2021-12-17T14:29:49 < ventYl> warning: don't feed znc with jumbo packets
2021-12-17T14:30:35 < Xogium> hehe yep bad idea
2021-12-17T14:31:55 < Xogium> so you're saying you could in theory write kicad files just with a basic text editor like nano or some such ?
2021-12-17T14:33:01 < Xogium> you really need knowledge about pins and nets and such though before that. And probably electronics in general, would be bad idea to design pcb without knowing electronic to an extent, I reckon
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2021-12-17T14:39:47 < ventYl> well, what you see in kicad essentially boils down to "net VCC_3V3 is connected to pin VCC at U1, VCC at U2, pin 1 at C1, C2, C3, C4"
2021-12-17T14:40:30 < ventYl> in certain cases it may even become less obvious what connects to what while two pins sharing connection in circuit diagram don't need to be physically connected via line on screen
2021-12-17T14:40:37 < karlp> you _can_ write the netlist by hand upfront and ask kicad to import it...
2021-12-17T14:40:42 < karlp> but pcb layout will get funky...
2021-12-17T14:40:54 < Xogium> but don't you need some kind of visual representation of your pcb ? I mean technically, you're sort of running wires all over the place and have to make sure they don't overlap… at least that's what I was told
2021-12-17T14:40:58 < karlp> can of course be done programaticayl as well, but keeping that in your head might be... interesting...
2021-12-17T14:40:59 < ventYl> I guess that PCB layou will get funky anyways, given Xogium's disability
2021-12-17T14:42:10 < ventYl> Xogium: the process has two steps. first design circuit, then design PCB, if it sucks, or can't be made, or whatever, then loop back and update circuit. circuit design is doable, because there you mostly don't deal with spatial dimensions, PCB layout may be... as karlp said, funky
2021-12-17T14:43:40 < Xogium> I figured as much, honestly
2021-12-17T14:44:04 < ventYl> you can still go fairly long way down the road with just the circuit diagram as it can be simulated in various ways and there is (rather interesting) knowledge you have to gain in order to do it at least partially good
2021-12-17T14:44:33 < Xogium> and its not even that I'm not willing to learn, honestly I'd really like to, would be awesome
2021-12-17T14:45:59 < ventYl> and oh, for rather simple circuits, there are still prototyping boards available
2021-12-17T14:46:05 < ventYl> so you can fake the PCB
2021-12-17T14:46:20 < ventYl> prototyping board has an advantage that you can get tactile response from it
2021-12-17T14:46:53 < Xogium> like step above the breadboard things ?
2021-12-17T14:48:25 < ventYl> yeah, some of prototype PCBs are like breadboards. just a ton of holes with copper pad around it. you can solder parts as you wish and connected them as you need
2021-12-17T14:49:15 < Xogium> ah yeah like blank pcb
2021-12-17T14:49:37 < ventYl> with breakouts such as blue/black pill or RPi Pico you can put even STM on such device
2021-12-17T14:50:20 < Xogium> so you make your own stuff, just not your own pcb
2021-12-17T14:51:05 < ventYl> yeah, the process, in the end, is pretty much the same. just the prototyping PCB gives you a lot less of resolution for your traces
2021-12-17T14:53:16 < Xogium> I can pull off breadboard if I know what I'm doing. It's slow going but I can. But blank pcb, probably not, since I couldn't solder. So I guess I better stick with breadboards
2021-12-17T14:55:23 < Xogium> there was this cool board I wanted to play with, lichee nano from seeed studio, I think it is. Bought 2 of them on mouser. The came with their 20 gpio pins detached :p
2021-12-17T14:55:39 < Xogium> I opened the box and I was like, oh you've gotta be kidding me
2021-12-17T14:55:40 < ventYl> inability to solder would be a problem also with PCB, unless you let fab to mount parts onto it as well
2021-12-17T14:55:58 < karlp> if you can make the schematic, you can just allow "non-optimal" sizing, and just run it through an autorouter...
2021-12-17T14:56:08 < karlp> it will actually be more than good enough for lots of stuff :)
2021-12-17T14:56:36 < Xogium> yeah I was like… just thinking of submitting to jlcpcb or something similar so they do all the assembling and such
2021-12-17T14:56:55 < Xogium> I'd probably pay more for it, but at least I wouldn't have to be worried about soldering
2021-12-17T14:57:30 < ventYl> that's also a way
2021-12-17T14:57:50 < ventYl> yet, still there's the circuit design phase, which is mostly independent on PCB design phase and you have to figure it out
2021-12-17T14:58:11 < ventYl> and that one IMHO can be done using textual input. if you can handle that much information without visual input
2021-12-17T14:59:19 < Xogium> well… I don't know if I could, since I didn't ever try. But there's only one way to find out
2021-12-17T15:00:08 < ventYl> scale small, use breadboard (as everyone else at that phase), learn, apply learned, scale bigger
2021-12-17T15:01:02 < Xogium> thing is, what should I start with
2021-12-17T15:01:06 < Xogium> :D
2021-12-17T15:01:54 < ventYl> unless you want to do analog stuff and RF, it boils down to Ohm's law and how transistor works
2021-12-17T15:02:26 < ventYl> Ohm's law has a ton of consequences which pretty much shape digital circuits 
2021-12-17T15:02:47 < kakium69> why task manager lies about memory use
2021-12-17T15:03:19 < Xogium> yeah I sort of learned a bit of that at school but well, the way they teach that, I couldn't help but lose interest, the circuit we were making was used to blink a led, and I didn't actually do a single thing during the practical part of the work, my team did it all
2021-12-17T15:03:23 < Steffanx> Ohno, kill it kakium69  . The start of Skynet 
2021-12-17T15:03:29 < Xogium> I was beyond bored
2021-12-17T15:03:50 < kakium69> Steffanx: it's to hide the skynet system?
2021-12-17T15:04:14 < Steffanx> No, if computer start to lie.. then it might be too late for us
2021-12-17T15:04:53 < steve__> is it task manager that lies, or task manager that allows processes to lie to it
2021-12-17T15:04:56 < kakium69> ah I think it might be that it's not lying but the readings are made deceptive
2021-12-17T15:05:02 < kakium69> intentionally
2021-12-17T15:05:07 < ventYl> Xogium: blinky is always a good start. the thing is that the behavior is a bit more abstract
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2021-12-17T15:05:19 < ventYl> or the relationship between formal rules and actual behavior
2021-12-17T15:06:12 < kakium69> another program can show private bytes. I think wildest example was when dwm.exe mem leak did 23gigabytes and task manager was like it's fine 100megs or 200megs or something
2021-12-17T15:07:18 < Xogium> blinky is like the equivalent of hello world I guess
2021-12-17T15:08:17 < steve__> "engineering is not for me, it's so boring to watch my colleagues do all the work for me"
2021-12-17T15:08:32 < kakium69> :o
2021-12-17T15:08:37 < Xogium> but yeah at school it was done with a blinking led and required soldering so I practically just listened to my team talking about this and that while they were doing the work and stood there with my arms crossed
2021-12-17T15:08:43 < Xogium> can't make a class more boring than that lol
2021-12-17T15:10:52 < Xogium> the theory was translated in braille but none of the diagrams and etc were, they figured best not to waste paper if he isn't going to be able to do that work anyway
2021-12-17T15:11:47 < steve__> is it task manager's fault for not reporting the leaked 23gb, or is it windows' fault for not cleaning up mess from shitty software
2021-12-17T15:12:21 < kakium69> task manager's
2021-12-17T15:13:00 < steve__> youre blind?  pardon me then
2021-12-17T15:13:07 < kakium69> but it's my fault that I use task manager
2021-12-17T15:13:39 < steve__> does get-processes or whatever its called in powershell give better data?
2021-12-17T15:14:06 < ventYl> Xogium: well, the diagrams basically don't carry any other information than "this is connected to that". sometimes there's "this wire carries signal looking like this"
2021-12-17T15:15:56 < Xogium> ventYl: yeah but still best to know
2021-12-17T15:16:36 < kakium69> steve__: it seems
2021-12-17T15:16:41 < ventYl> Xogium: well, i'd start with asking, if there is any form established for braille description of circuits
2021-12-17T15:18:21 < kakium69> and it seems that task manager mem use is not in coherrence with any of these readings
2021-12-17T15:18:35 < steve__> lol
2021-12-17T15:19:01 < steve__> how do they get away with this
2021-12-17T15:19:10 < kakium69> ah google autofills "task manager memory use" with "doesn't add up"
2021-12-17T15:19:31 < kakium69> let's see someone has investigated this for sure
2021-12-17T15:24:58 < fenugrec> karlp, I'm not even using F7 ! but F0 was lacking certain examples that I found in other families
2021-12-17T15:26:01 < steve__> in windows there's services processes and tasks, task manager and task scheduler, I only know UNIX but it seems strange.  How could you possibly account/track system resources with such vague boundaries and entities
2021-12-17T15:27:17 < steve__> in unix it's just "daemon" which is a special case of "process"
2021-12-17T15:29:08 < Xogium> ventYl: yeah I'll research that
2021-12-17T15:31:00 < ventYl> steve__: in windows, it is pretty much the same, just service is a process with some interesting properties
2021-12-17T15:31:08 < ventYl> it all boils down to processes and threads
2021-12-17T15:34:15 < steve__> oh.  that's good.  but it is still confusing, "task manager" manages tasks?  if it was "process manager" that would make sense
2021-12-17T15:38:30 < ventYl> naming conventions
2021-12-17T15:39:00 < ventYl> one calls it process, another call it task and yet another call it an application
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2021-12-17T15:41:31 < karlp> there's basically lots of repetitive shitty bad form examples for f1, a few for f4, and... htat's about it :)
2021-12-17T15:51:08 < kakium69> JLCs are here
2021-12-17T15:51:47 < kakium69> I feel dumb now as I see the quality. I have been doing shit by hand with stencils and shit
2021-12-17T15:52:50 < Xogium> look pretty ?
2021-12-17T15:53:11 < kakium69> yes
2021-12-17T15:53:21 < Xogium> cool
2021-12-17T15:53:25 < Xogium> what are they for ?
2021-12-17T15:53:48 < kakium69> fan cooled pants
2021-12-17T15:54:12 < Xogium> fancy hehe
2021-12-17T15:54:27 < Xogium> did they assemble for you and all then ?
2021-12-17T15:54:38 < kakium69> SMT assembly
2021-12-17T15:54:40 < kakium69> one side
2021-12-17T15:54:46 < Xogium> cool
2021-12-17T15:54:59 < kakium69> another side has connectors so I need to assembly those
2021-12-17T15:55:11 < Xogium> ah yeah that makes sense
2021-12-17T15:55:52 < kakium69> only problem I see is with my soldermask or lack of between GND and Exposed pad
2021-12-17T15:56:12 < kakium69> EP has sucked the solder out of GND pin in some boards
2021-12-17T15:56:54 < kakium69> or actually I should not maybe have connected GND and EP pins but placed a via instead
2021-12-17T15:57:16 < Xogium> so its faulty sorta ?
2021-12-17T15:57:35 < kakium69> I have not tested but some might have that problem
2021-12-17T16:01:18 < kakium69> not many
2021-12-17T16:01:54 < kakium69> if there is problem just flux and heat and poke it down with tweezers
2021-12-17T16:02:05 < Xogium> ;)
2021-12-17T16:02:11 < kakium69> https://drive.google.com/file/d/10tF4sb-9GfzHIkIfcnXJzNJiJFIiP4JS/view?usp=sharing
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2021-12-17T16:04:20 < kakium69> AO3401 said it's "sot23". IIRC it was bigger but it seems to stick to normal sot23 footprint. Couldn't be assed to make perfect footprint for it
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2021-12-17T16:36:45 < karlp> nice boards kaks
2021-12-17T16:37:01 < kakium69> thanks
2021-12-17T16:51:19 < fenugrec> yea some datasheets say "sot23" but they mean "sot23-3" 
2021-12-17T16:52:31 < fenugrec> 2.9x2.4mm , vs 2.9x2.8 . or vis versa
2021-12-17T16:52:38 < kakium69> waas
2021-12-17T16:53:00 < kakium69> I thought -3 was just reductant pin number count
2021-12-17T16:53:09 < fenugrec> e.g. this part has both variants https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/AP2127.pdf
2021-12-17T16:54:14 < Steffanx> Mr jpa- stm32 prices broke your code.
2021-12-17T16:56:00 < Xogium> as long as the code didn't break the stm32
2021-12-17T17:01:21 < kakium69> did jpa- code stm32 price predictor?
2021-12-17T17:03:13 < karlp> huh, TIL that sot23 and sot23-3 weren't the same
2021-12-17T17:03:22 < Xogium> I think he did ?
2021-12-17T17:03:28 < karlp> it's in the topic...
2021-12-17T17:03:35 < karlp> oh, no, it used to be.
2021-12-17T17:06:15 < qyx> lol TILT
2021-12-17T17:06:44 < fenugrec> I actually have no idea what standards are the authority on sot23 vs sot23-3 . just a rabbit hole I nearly fell into with this https://gitlab.com/kicad/libraries/kicad-symbols/-/issues/3144
2021-12-17T17:08:40 < kakium69> that is one of those components you need to check datasheet per component
2021-12-17T17:10:48 < karlp> fenugrec: is that the one where they changed the default pads and shit stopped being routable?
2021-12-17T17:11:05 < karlp> oh no, that's another fun ticket instead :)
2021-12-17T17:11:07 < fenugrec> mmm never heard of that
2021-12-17T17:12:09 < fenugrec> how did shit stop being routable ?
2021-12-17T17:13:08 < karlp> the default pads got a lot bigger, (equalling some IPC thing) and things were no longer routable between pads at some design rules.
2021-12-17T17:13:11 < kakium69> pads moved into traces in old projects
2021-12-17T17:13:17 < fenugrec> aah
2021-12-17T17:14:44 < Xogium> ventYl: I can't find a damn thing on circuit diagram made for the blind… Ironically can find plenty of circuit designs and diagrams sand such for braille displays and things like that, made for sighted people obviously, and all as pictures
2021-12-17T17:15:33 < fenugrec> Xogium, you'll have to learn to process SPICE netlists or something !
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2021-12-17T17:28:30 < Xogium> yeah, and this will be a lot of fun
2021-12-17T17:28:52 < Xogium> I can understand the text but having a diagram to follow along would have been useful, I reckon
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2021-12-17T18:25:12  * karlp makes freecad grind...
2021-12-17T18:28:34 < kakium69> what is he up to?
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2021-12-17T18:29:24 < Xogium> absolutely no idea
2021-12-17T18:29:51 < karlp> loading up ST's _fullllly_ detailed 11MB step file for a board :)
2021-12-17T18:30:57 < Xogium> damn that's one hell to make it work hard
2021-12-17T18:32:56 < kakium69> karlp: pics
2021-12-17T18:33:11 < kakium69> detailed pics*
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2021-12-17T19:07:17 < zyp> huh, digikey's filtering is broken and mouser apparently doesn't let me filter for PoE-capable magjacks
2021-12-17T19:07:47 < zyp> any suggestions?
2021-12-17T19:08:27 < kakium69> order from hantek
2021-12-17T19:08:54 < zyp> I need two gigabit ethernet ports with poe on one, preferably low depth
2021-12-17T19:09:41 < zyp> can do separate magnetics if that ends up fitting better
2021-12-17T19:21:21 < ventYl> Xogium: well, that's an opportunity to be a pioneer
2021-12-17T19:21:58 < zyp> HR911196AE
2021-12-17T19:22:12 < zyp> looks available and is the right kind, but it's 33mm deep
2021-12-17T19:35:42 < Xogium> ventYl: sounds like that indeed
2021-12-17T19:51:44 < fenugrec> Xogium, I guess you need to figure out what's the highest-bandwidth path to the brain to communicate multiple interconnected parts etc
2021-12-17T19:53:29 < Xogium> it will be hardcore and will try out my capacity to remember things, I think
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2021-12-17T19:56:49 < ventYl> Xogium: maybe think about how to communicate that the best. would a string of pin@part - pin@part - pin@part work for you as an input of net?
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2021-12-17T19:57:53 < ventYl> I personally, without the insight into what you might need would need two way to represent data. net-oriented (these pins are connected via trace on PCB) and part-oriented (pins of this part are connected there and there)
2021-12-17T19:58:05 < ventYl> and then extensive use of design rule checker
2021-12-17T19:58:06 < fenugrec> part of the value of a schematic is also in the shape of components - instantly recognizing the function and roughly where it's connected to
2021-12-17T19:58:31 < ventYl> fenugrec: that's probably valuable for us :)
2021-12-17T19:59:13 < ventYl> actually well defined symbols and design rule checker could be a strong help here
2021-12-17T19:59:45 < ventYl> and highly hierarchical design
2021-12-17T20:00:01 < fenugrec> ventYl, exactly, so I'm wondering how to convey the equivalent information the most efficiently
2021-12-17T20:04:51 < ventYl> Xogium: how would you work with something like map of subway system? it is mostly the same. a graph of connections, where "to the left" and "to the right" has generally no meaning.
2021-12-17T20:05:20 < ventYl> have you ever lost yourself in Tokyo metro?
2021-12-17T20:05:43 < kakium69> fem pros?
2021-12-17T20:05:59 < karlp> zyp: so you only bought the 5072, and used the difference to get sensepeek probes and rigloled upto 5354?
2021-12-17T20:07:51 < ventYl> kakium69: not that I understood what I did, but I was working on FEM module
2021-12-17T20:07:59 < kakium69> waas
2021-12-17T20:08:08 < kakium69> you have dids everything
2021-12-17T20:08:28 < kakium69> was it electricals-related module?
2021-12-17T20:08:38 < ventYl> not yet. i've never been working on space satellite
2021-12-17T20:09:04 < kakium69> ah
2021-12-17T20:09:05 < ventYl> no, it wasn't SPICE or anything like that, it was mechanical, thermal and CFD
2021-12-17T20:10:14 < kakium69> you were creating a solver?
2021-12-17T20:10:50 < ventYl> it's frontend and backend
2021-12-17T20:11:25 < kakium69> elmer?
2021-12-17T20:11:28 < ventYl> actual solver is written in fortran
2021-12-17T20:11:33 < ventYl> nope, nastran
2021-12-17T20:11:49 < ventYl> feacs and Fusion360
2021-12-17T20:13:37 < kakium69> all of them?
2021-12-17T20:14:19 < ventYl> nastran is the solver, feacs is a glue between autodesk CADs and their solvers as they have more than one and fusion 360 is ... well, fusion
2021-12-17T20:14:44 < kakium69> yes
2021-12-17T20:15:14 < kakium69> how come you have no space satellite yet?
2021-12-17T20:15:36 < kakium69> friend has one
2021-12-17T20:16:08 < kakium69> not his own but.. nevertheless
2021-12-17T20:16:44 < ventYl> no high priorities and local cubesat project(s?) are a mess
2021-12-17T20:16:56 < kakium69> cubesat projects are a mess
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2021-12-17T20:17:31 < kakium69> I concur
2021-12-17T20:17:36 < ventYl> and well, i've been working on fusion most of time, but have some commits in feacs too
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2021-12-17T20:18:21 < kakium69> you work for autodesk?
2021-12-17T20:19:46 < ventYl> just outsource, sometimes
2021-12-17T20:20:43 < kakium69> you worked for them before and became contractor?
2021-12-17T20:21:06 < ventYl> no, i've never been working directly for autodesk, i've always been a contractor
2021-12-17T20:21:18 < ventYl> but between projects, i've been working elsewhere
2021-12-17T20:21:27 < kakium69> how did they find you?
2021-12-17T20:21:37 < ventYl> varies
2021-12-17T20:23:12 < ventYl> first time it was actually a guy we wanted to hire, which worked at company i've been working before. he didn't chose us, but went into company which was mainly contracting for autodesk. when i left that company, I got info, that this autodesk contracting company is looking for another developer via this guy and ex-coworker who knew us both
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2021-12-17T20:24:24 < kakium69> so the usual know someone who knows someone
2021-12-17T20:25:12 < ventYl> i would probably find out that job opening sooner or later and would be hired anyway. as they had infamously known C++ test which made people cry
2021-12-17T20:25:37 < ventYl> i've personally seen people giving up on that test in like two minutes
2021-12-17T20:27:07 < kakium69> I would never go to such test
2021-12-17T20:27:41 < kakium69> do you have examples?
2021-12-17T20:27:42 < ventYl> it wasn't hard nor long. for some reason, people simply gave up on it
2021-12-17T20:28:26 < kakium69> ah maybe it was psychological game of sorts
2021-12-17T20:28:31 < ventYl> it was like 4 pages long, 5 questions per page
2021-12-17T20:28:46 < ventYl> or maybe 5 pages x 5 questions
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2021-12-17T20:29:05 < ventYl> first page was composed of generic computer algorithm and structures questions
2021-12-17T20:29:35 < ventYl> standard stuff about linked lists & so. like, when would you prefer double linked links over simple linked list
2021-12-17T20:29:57 < kakium69> hmm in cad world you need linked lists very much
2021-12-17T20:30:31 < ventYl> second page was same stuff, albeit you had to write very short snipets of code in C. up to like 5 lines or so. and not everywhere. IIRC most of questions had one-liner as an answer
2021-12-17T20:31:00 < kakium69> one liner :o
2021-12-17T20:31:22 < ventYl> third page were general C++ questions, such as effects of virtual methods & similar
2021-12-17T20:32:01 < fenugrec> "write a typedef for an array of const pointers to functions taking a function pointer as an argument"
2021-12-17T20:32:03 < ventYl> fourth page started (it took roughly two minutes of slow reading to reach here) with question: What is your opninion on following line of code? `delete this;`
2021-12-17T20:32:40 < zyp> karlp, correct
2021-12-17T20:33:08 < zyp> and I don't regret that decision, I want two more sensepeek probes a lot more than two more regular probes
2021-12-17T20:33:20 < ventYl> and contained more C++ stuff, less general, yet still logical and known to everyone who ever did at least something in C++
2021-12-17T20:33:35 < ventYl> fifth page was composed of questions of simple descriptive geometry
2021-12-17T20:33:54 < ventYl> you would score 100% even if you ignored fifth page completely
2021-12-17T20:34:19 < ventYl> typical "quite good" score in that test was 25%
2021-12-17T20:35:13 < zyp> sounds fun
2021-12-17T20:36:56 < zyp> «delete this;» implies that the object is self-owned and thus responsible for its own destruction
2021-12-17T20:37:09 < fenugrec> zyp, can you actually do something like that with those probes: https://cdn.abicart.com/shop/ws40/74640/art40/h6684/155966684-origpic-0668d4.jpg
2021-12-17T20:37:09 < zyp> not totally unreasonable, but I struggle to come up with a case where it would be useful
2021-12-17T20:37:22 < zyp> fenugrec, yes, that's the point
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2021-12-17T20:37:24 < ventYl> that test was originally written sometime in early '90s where there was no sign of smart pointers
2021-12-17T20:37:48 < fenugrec> zyp, right - I'm just skeptical of that one probe on the left at a very low angle...
2021-12-17T20:38:14 < ventYl> and the aim was to see how people understand C++ object's nature.
2021-12-17T20:38:38 < zyp> fenugrec, here's something I was doing: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/8RMaq.jpg
2021-12-17T20:38:51 < zyp> and I have another of six probes at once, let me find it
2021-12-17T20:39:53 < fenugrec> and it's bring-your-own steel baseplate ? wouldn't need to be super thick but at least a few mm to have enough rigidity
2021-12-17T20:40:19 < ventYl> possible incorrect answers were like: it won't compile, it will crash immediately, it will crash upon exit from that function or it will unconditionally work
2021-12-17T20:41:27 < kakium69> it had answer options too?
2021-12-17T20:41:40 < ventYl> no, that's just collected evidence
2021-12-17T20:41:57 < fenugrec> zyp, I hope you weren't probing those length-matched diff pairs P )
2021-12-17T20:42:04 < zyp> baseplate included, it's like half a millimeter or something, rigid enough on the desk
2021-12-17T20:42:12 < kakium69> is delete like free() ?
2021-12-17T20:42:17 < zyp> no, I was probing 168MHz SWO :)
2021-12-17T20:42:35 < ventYl> kakium69: with some sideeffects, but yes, free() is internally called as a last step
2021-12-17T20:42:45 < ventYl> well, it is not really, but it has the same effect
2021-12-17T20:42:57 < zyp> here's the one with six probes at once: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/SaCBg.jpg
2021-12-17T20:43:07 < zyp> dfn8 so not super dense, but still
2021-12-17T20:45:26 < fenugrec> interesting. looks like you're mixing both the scope-probe type and the regular pinheader
2021-12-17T20:45:52 < zyp> yes, I bought the kit with two analog and four digital probes
2021-12-17T20:46:04 < fenugrec> definitely looks like a good answer to a universal problem
2021-12-17T20:46:11 < zyp> and I needed all six to scope qspi with clock and cs
2021-12-17T20:46:38 < fenugrec> Just ordered >200$ worth of probemaster probes but could sure use some of those. Yeah, halfway between scope work an logic analyzer work
2021-12-17T20:47:23 < zyp> I'm tempted to buy another full kit so I'll have four analog and eight digital probes
2021-12-17T20:47:23 < fenugrec> Hope you're getting discounts for referrals P )
2021-12-17T20:47:49 < zyp> haha
2021-12-17T20:48:16 < ventYl> hm, i would sometimes need something like that
2021-12-17T20:48:29 < ventYl> yet i need it like once a year, so no hurry to make an investment
2021-12-17T20:48:35 < zyp> I brought the scope and probes with me two work for something a few weeks ago, needed a bunch of digital channels and all the office scopes are analog only
2021-12-17T20:48:57 < zyp> and people started talking about getting some
2021-12-17T20:49:07 < fenugrec> I bet
2021-12-17T20:49:22 < fenugrec> I saw some DIY implementations of that idea but didn't look convincing
2021-12-17T20:49:32 < ventYl> why?
2021-12-17T20:49:34 < fenugrec> some using the machine-tool style flexible/segmented hose
2021-12-17T20:50:14 < ventYl> i think you can get that stuff used to make flexible lamps quite easilly
2021-12-17T20:50:15 < fenugrec> some of them looked like they would have way too much flex or hysteresis
2021-12-17T20:50:18 < zyp> when I said the scope was only 800€ they started talking about getting a bunch so everybody could have one each
2021-12-17T20:50:52 < zyp> the arms for these probes are really flexible
2021-12-17T20:51:26 < zyp> it's the weight on the end right above the probe that keeps it in place, the arm is just support
2021-12-17T20:52:01 < fenugrec> hmm
2021-12-17T20:52:24 < zyp> it's a good thing, because otherwise you'd have to fight the rigidity in the arm to position it right
2021-12-17T20:53:03 < zyp> the way this is designed, you put the tip down, the weight pushes down and keeps it in place, and the arm is just rigid enough to keep the weight from falling over
2021-12-17T20:53:07 < fenugrec> indeed. So you rely on the springloaded pogo pin to make good contact, not the precision of your adjustment
2021-12-17T20:53:32 < fenugrec> ( https://youtu.be/54eML7PMHjw )
2021-12-17T20:54:02 < zyp> I also really like the pcb holders
2021-12-17T20:54:22 < fenugrec> those seem a bit high for soldering but probing is probably just right
2021-12-17T20:54:36 < zyp> they're great for soldering as well :)
2021-12-17T20:55:13 < zyp> just a millimeter or two too low to get my mini preheater under
2021-12-17T20:55:36 < zyp> if the preheater just fit, they would be perfect :)
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2021-12-17T20:56:03 < zyp> (the miniware mhp30)
2021-12-17T20:57:20 < ventYl> zyp: btw do you know if structure introspection already landed in any compiler?
2021-12-17T20:57:43 < zyp> I don't even know what you mean by structure introspection :)
2021-12-17T20:58:07 < ventYl> a way of iterating over struct / class members
2021-12-17T20:58:23 < zyp> is there a standard for that?
2021-12-17T20:59:10 < ventYl> there are two proposals, original plan was to integrate one of them into C++20, but later decision was made, that doing a premature wrong decision here would be unwise as there is still too many open questions
2021-12-17T20:59:32 < zyp> I see
2021-12-17T20:59:40 < ventYl> so, quite late before C++20 finalization, it was removed
2021-12-17T20:59:49 < zyp> but no, I'm not aware of any support
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2021-12-17T20:59:58 < ventYl> I know that one of them had experimental support in llvm for "research purposes"
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2021-12-17T21:00:04 < zyp> what's it for?
2021-12-17T21:00:10 < zyp> I mean, what do you want it for?
2021-12-17T21:00:27 < zyp> could you use a std::tuple instead to achieve what you want?
2021-12-17T21:00:31 < ventYl> generally for stuff like serialization and deserialization, testing
2021-12-17T21:00:42 < ventYl> no, in my case, the input is fixed as a struct containin arrays
2021-12-17T21:00:50 < ventYl> that's why I want *specifically* that
2021-12-17T21:00:58 < zyp> ah, right
2021-12-17T21:01:19 < ventYl> like, I could hand-craft a serializer, but that needs to be adjusted every time you change the class
2021-12-17T21:01:46 < Xogium> ventYl: I've never really understood maps of any kind, truth be told. I tried, but when you compare the map I could touch to the real thing, like the real street it was made from, I was immediately lost and couldn't make any sense of the small map showing in 2d relief tactile graphics on a piece of paper compared to a gigantic street… Ok gigantic to me
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2021-12-17T21:02:26 < ventYl> zyp: in last project I had a need to auto-generate access methods for structs, so they could be accesses on the go
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2021-12-17T21:04:31 < ventYl> it was kinda cool, i've been able to fool unmodified portion of car ECU, that it exists in real car surrounded by real remainder of it's own ECU and visualize it's output with one-line-long command
2021-12-17T21:05:22 < Xogium> I kind of have issues with measuring too, for distance… One meter, ok… more or less. But already 10 meters is too hard to grasp for my brain let alone the dimetions of something like a football field
2021-12-17T21:06:08 < zyp> for serializers, I think I would argue that an external message definition is better, and rather generate structs from that, rather than defining structs and inferring the message layout from that
2021-12-17T21:06:26 < zyp> like e.g. protobuf or capnp
2021-12-17T21:06:42 < ventYl> Xogium: i've been asking for subway maps specifically, because in subway, distanes nor directions don't play any role. subway really is just a graph in mathematical sense, which connects stations on one line and provides connections between lines on certain transfer stations
2021-12-17T21:06:53 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-17T21:07:08 < Xogium> I'm not sure… I never took the subway
2021-12-17T21:07:13 < ventYl> which is kinda similar to circuit. where exactly the part is on schematic has (mostly) no role, only what it connects to. and how
2021-12-17T21:07:39 < ventYl> zyp: that wasn't really serialization wask. it was more like observation in real time. without involvement of observed code
2021-12-17T21:07:50 < ventYl> *task
2021-12-17T21:08:10 < zyp> I just did some stuff with graphql a few days ago, it's higher level but similar in that you define types and stuff externally
2021-12-17T21:08:17 < Xogium> but I think I kind of get the idea… barely
2021-12-17T21:10:01 < ventYl> zyp: yeah, I didn't want to define anything externally. I've had implementation working for scalar types. so you could write something like test_UseCaseManager -test open_roof -plot roofMotorPosition -plot ToneauMotorPosition and it would plot you those two variables as the test ran
2021-12-17T21:10:37 < ventYl> but certain "variables" were structures and that couldn't be done in any simple way without introspection
2021-12-17T21:13:10 < fenugrec> huh. that sensepeek thing was a kickstarter
2021-12-17T21:14:28 < ventYl> Xogium: well, try to search for solution of map accessibility. maybe there will be some hint applicable to circuit schematics accessibility if you think about it
2021-12-17T21:14:34 < ventYl> it is very close class of problems
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2021-12-17T21:15:18 < ventYl> meanwhile, I am gonna hack espeak
2021-12-17T21:16:49 < Xogium> mmh yeah that could work
2021-12-17T21:17:14 < ventYl> like, it is not exactly the same... or, maybe it is
2021-12-17T21:17:44 < ventYl> as generally, the current flows left to right and top - down in circuit diagrams
2021-12-17T21:18:58 < Xogium> makes sense
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2021-12-17T23:12:15 < ventYl> Xogium: I am quite close to dumping dictionary entirely into C source file
2021-12-17T23:12:18 < ventYl> hopefully
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2021-12-17T23:28:26 < Xogium> wow really ?
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2021-12-17T23:28:48 < machinehum> hola
2021-12-17T23:29:21 < Xogium> that's a smart idea by the way, one of my friend said, wow cool, that would mean you don't even need to memory map the flash or anything
2021-12-17T23:29:27 < Xogium> machinehum: hi
2021-12-17T23:29:27 < ventYl> Xogium: yeah, I need to sort out where certain values come from and adjust several pointers, but it mostly works
2021-12-17T23:30:02 < Xogium> this has to be done on a dictionary by dictionary basis, right ?
2021-12-17T23:30:28 < ventYl> well, i have hacked espeak, that it generates static C file for each dictionary it loads
2021-12-17T23:30:34 < Xogium> ah
2021-12-17T23:30:59 < ventYl> then, if another hack has support in gcc, it will automatically use that statically compiled dictionary on next build
2021-12-17T23:31:11 < Xogium> gotta wonder, will these take more or less disk space than the original dict files that it compiles ?
2021-12-17T23:31:22 < ventYl> lotta more
2021-12-17T23:31:42 < Xogium> really ?
2021-12-17T23:31:59 < Xogium> are they compressed on disk normally or something ?
2021-12-17T23:32:30 < ventYl> yeah, because each value is written as hex, which in case of single byte values means, that C source occupies ~6x times the actual memory consumed at runtime
2021-12-17T23:32:47 < ventYl> oh, source files is a lot larger than resulting binary
2021-12-17T23:32:53 < ventYl> *are
2021-12-17T23:33:11 < Xogium> yeah that's what I was thinking too…
2021-12-17T23:33:33 < Xogium> binary blob can be more compact than what are more or less text files
2021-12-17T23:33:34 < ventYl> one random dictionary converted into C source has ~523kB
2021-12-17T23:34:05 < Xogium> damn yep that is much bigger, but that's fine since these will never get on the target anyway
2021-12-17T23:34:13 < ventYl> well, this stuff will occupy same amount of space, it will just occupy most of it in flash instead of RAM
2021-12-17T23:34:27 < ventYl> while with 2MB of internal flash, the flash is rather abundant resource compared to ram
2021-12-17T23:34:38 < Xogium> yeah I've got like 4 times more flash than ram
2021-12-17T23:36:18 < Xogium> but best keep a boundary of sort I guess, so that I can store whatever program would link against espeak to talk there too
2021-12-17T23:36:52 < Xogium> I mean a mcu with espeak alone isn't that much useful, if it doesn't talk now is it
2021-12-17T23:37:29 < ventYl> that's another story
2021-12-17T23:37:58 < Xogium> yep yep
2021-12-17T23:39:03 < Xogium> I never thought it would be actually possible to conver the dictionaries into C source and compile these to then be flashed in the internal flash
2021-12-17T23:39:18 < ventYl> luckilly, dictionary structure seems not to be pointing to anything particularly interesting outside of compiled dictionary
2021-12-17T23:39:32 < Xogium> the most I thought about was to memory map the internal flash so it could load data from there, or even the external flash
2021-12-17T23:40:19 < Xogium> but the nice thing here is we don't need the mbrola-related stuff. None of it is ever going to work on mcu anyway, so unless it is entirely unused you could litterally prune that off
2021-12-17T23:42:08 < Xogium> mbrola is another tts that can't talk on its own, it has voices and phonemes and all of that, but to be heard it has to go through espeak. It was closed source for the last 20 years though, and only very recently opened up
2021-12-17T23:42:11 < ventYl> well, first I want to convert all loaded data into static, then I can start cutting unnecessary meat out
2021-12-17T23:42:41 < ventYl> does it produce better or worse results than espeak itself?
2021-12-17T23:42:47 < ventYl> like, less robotic?
2021-12-17T23:42:57 < Xogium> and while the code is open and can be compiled and such now, none of the voices are commercially usable without the permission of whoever submitted that voice
2021-12-17T23:43:27 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-17T23:43:40 < Xogium> they are definitely more human sounding, I'd say
2021-12-17T23:43:56 < kakium69> you need to voice act your own robotic sounds
2021-12-17T23:44:05 < Xogium> but they mostly keep the same way of pronouncing words as espeak, which is nice
2021-12-17T23:44:57 < Xogium> they were based on actual samples of human voices processed though some program to create a voice file
2021-12-17T23:45:37 < Xogium> so definitely more human. But not as natural as even cloned voices from the resembleAI project for example
2021-12-17T23:47:23 < ventYl> can't you generate your own voices?
2021-12-17T23:47:46 < Xogium> but, that's okay with me. I don't like too natural sounding voices, for the very reason that they sound just like that, too natural
2021-12-17T23:48:44 < Xogium> it's frankly disturbing, some are very good for reading, but not good for coding or for other tasks and they certainly don't like switching from english to french
2021-12-17T23:49:38 < Xogium> ventYl: well, before the AI' I'd have said no… it was a very long and hardcore process to make a tts voice that was a minimum human sounding
2021-12-17T23:50:36 < Xogium> required several thousand hours making nonsense noises, phonemes, not even part of sentences or words, since they are phoneme based and then were painfully assembled together
2021-12-17T23:52:16 < Xogium> but now with an AI that is powerful enough to listen to you reading some text, you only need to read I think it's like 150 sentences per training session for it to pick up your voice
2021-12-17T23:52:33 < Xogium> but of course the more training you give to it, the better it will speak and imitate your voice
2021-12-17T23:54:17 < Xogium> the only annoying thing is that they don't let you do whatever you please with the voice you created, let alone use it as tts in your own system… unless you pay for it, of course
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2021-12-17T23:57:32 < ventYl> who "they" ?
2021-12-17T23:57:58 < Xogium> resembleAI
2021-12-17T23:59:05 < ventYl> ah ok, now I understand
2021-12-17T23:59:16 < ventYl> it is service, not an opensource SW
2021-12-17T23:59:22 < Xogium> yeah
2021-12-17T23:59:46 < Xogium> far as I know there's no open source solution to litterally clone a voice
--- Day changed Sat Dec 18 2021
2021-12-18T00:01:41 < kakium69> have you moved from voice samples to ai generated voice synthesis code?
2021-12-18T00:02:27 < ventYl> espeak doesn't apparently use voice samples
2021-12-18T00:02:44 < Xogium> kakium69: heh well yes and no. I initially wanted to use voice samples, but then ventYl and I got started on a discussion about tts and he decided to see if he could port espeak to stm32f7
2021-12-18T00:02:56 < Xogium> after I mentioned I once tried and really did not go far
2021-12-18T00:04:18 < Xogium> and yep its both a blessing and a curse that espeak isn't based on a human voice
2021-12-18T00:04:48 < Xogium> a curse because it sounds obviously more robotic though it's by no means the worse tts I've ever heard
2021-12-18T00:05:31 < Xogium> and a blessing because it is way, way more flexible than a voice generated from samples would be, you can fix the way it pronounces things a lot more easier
2021-12-18T00:06:06 < Xogium> it's also a lot smaller
2021-12-18T00:06:23 < Xogium> the most human sounding voices can weigh up to 1 gb on disk, iirc
2021-12-18T00:06:43 < ventYl> is there any computable metric of how "understandable" a voice is?
2021-12-18T00:06:58 < Xogium> hmm good question
2021-12-18T00:07:03 < ventYl> extremely crazy idea would be to throw fuzzer and genetic algorithm on the problem
2021-12-18T00:07:30 < Xogium> I don't think there is… blind folks use to say that a tts is like a font. Some will like one, and others will absolutely hate that tts and prefer another
2021-12-18T00:07:43 < ventYl> makes sense
2021-12-18T00:08:04 < Xogium> there's one that ibm used to make called viavoice
2021-12-18T00:08:15 < ventYl> well, that fuzzer + genetic algorithm actually is not *that* stupid idea
2021-12-18T00:08:27 < Xogium> the most good comparison I ever heard of it was, it sounds like a robot with food in its mouth
2021-12-18T00:08:34 < ventYl> :D
2021-12-18T00:09:27 < Xogium> but I admit being honestly curious how espeak at 11 khz would sound like
2021-12-18T00:10:00 < Xogium> I think it was always 22 khz for me here
2021-12-18T00:12:09 < Xogium> but a 30 seconds buffer at 11 khz doesn't sound that bad… I mean, it depends at which rate you make it speak
2021-12-18T00:12:25 < Xogium> the faster it speaks the more info it can spew in that 30 seconds :D
2021-12-18T00:12:32 < Xogium> I'm used to 480 wpm here
2021-12-18T00:15:02 < ventYl> i hope it can generate actual sound in realtime
2021-12-18T00:15:16 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-18T00:15:32 < Xogium> it should be able to… Hopefully
2021-12-18T00:15:36 < ventYl> so phoneme generation will run in advance after it receives compact block of text, e.g. one line, one sentence or something, then it starts generating sound
2021-12-18T00:16:06 < ventYl> I haven't analyzed that part of code yet
2021-12-18T00:16:22 < Xogium> yeah not sure how it is done, I must say
2021-12-18T00:16:57 < Xogium> I know on ly linux it is fast enough that if I press a key it says things nearly instant
2021-12-18T00:17:04 < ventYl> voice files contain only group of frequencies
2021-12-18T00:17:06 < Xogium> I can't find any kind of delay, at any rate
2021-12-18T00:17:16 < Xogium> *on my linux
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2021-12-18T00:18:04 < Xogium> I mean clearly there's one, just maybe not noticeable
2021-12-18T00:18:35 < Xogium> and linux is certainly not running in realtime
2021-12-18T00:18:39 < ventYl> I think that anything below like 40ms is almost universally perceived as instant
2021-12-18T00:19:11 < ventYl> well, neither it runs at ~40MHz tops :)
2021-12-18T00:19:52 < Xogium> what does ?
2021-12-18T00:21:57 < ventYl> your linux
2021-12-18T00:22:23 < ventYl> oh, stm32 runs at some higher tens of MHz
2021-12-18T00:22:24 < ventYl> at most
2021-12-18T00:22:31 < ventYl> linux runs at Ghz mark
2021-12-18T00:22:44 < Xogium> audio latency probably won't be a problem either, the mic to headphone demo I ran was doing so good a job I couldn't hear the latency at all when I speoke into the microphones in my headphones. It was even hard to hear myself tlak in the headphones, so close to being instant it was
2021-12-18T00:23:04 < Xogium> *myself back
2021-12-18T00:23:26 < Xogium> damn getting tired and making more and more typoes, that's gotta be dangerous
2021-12-18T00:24:02 < ventYl> yeah, that demo basically copies what it receives over one channel onto other, so the delay might be at most the size of buffer, if there is any at all
2021-12-18T00:24:12 < Xogium> yeah this f7 one can run up to 216 mhz. Not half bad for a mcu
2021-12-18T00:24:34 < ventYl> oh, if it can do 216MHz, no worry it can run in real time
2021-12-18T00:24:52 < Xogium> yep f7 is one of the high performance mcu
2021-12-18T00:25:21 < Xogium> like the h7 I guess, except that the h7 are weirder and more badass like 1.4 mbytes of ram and 2 mbytes of flash
2021-12-18T00:25:31 < Xogium> and uh 550 mhz
2021-12-18T00:26:09 < Xogium> its well a cortex m7
2021-12-18T00:26:42 < ventYl> ok, back to hacking
2021-12-18T00:26:56 < Xogium> hehe have fun and don't break it all ;)
2021-12-18T00:27:08 < Xogium> will go see if I can catch some z
2021-12-18T00:27:10 < Xogium> :D
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2021-12-18T01:26:25 < ventYl> Xogium: it's pretty much on track. i have like 7-8 members, which need to be sorted somehow, but other than that I compiles. english dictionary has some 1.2MB as C source
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2021-12-18T08:03:29 < jadew> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkaLfbuB_6E
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2021-12-18T10:46:08 < Xogium> morning
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2021-12-18T11:36:42 < Xogium> heh languages like russian, don't think they would ever fit on the internal flash :D the ru_dict file is over 1.9 mb
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2021-12-18T11:40:31 < ventYl> well, that's not a problem after all, you can still add QSPI flash ani XIP it
2021-12-18T11:40:44 < Xogium> yep
2021-12-18T11:41:37 < Xogium> but yeah I was just thinking that like, wow didn't know russian was so big language
2021-12-18T11:41:57 < Xogium> like english is barely 160 kb and russian is almost 2 mb :D
2021-12-18T11:42:07 < ventYl> isn't that due to the fact that it must be encoded in UTF8?
2021-12-18T11:42:16 < ventYl> which makes it ~2x larger
2021-12-18T11:42:22 < Xogium> hmm possibly
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2021-12-18T11:46:29 < Xogium> and the external flash on that dev kit is absolutely freaking big
2021-12-18T11:46:56 < Xogium> ok there are larger sizes but even then, largest external flash I saw on a st board so far
2021-12-18T11:47:06 < Xogium> 512 mbit or 64 mbytes
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2021-12-18T11:48:27 < Xogium> and its nor flash too, so yay for fast code execution
2021-12-18T11:48:35 < Xogium> and no factory bad blocks
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2021-12-18T12:08:38 < jpa-> Xogium: simple word-based dictionaries get very large for languages that have inflections
2021-12-18T12:09:19 < jpa-> there are specialized language models that deal better with this
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2021-12-18T12:12:21 < jpa-> libmalaga is one of them, but i don't know if there is something newer and better
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2021-12-18T12:22:23 < Xogium> jpa-: that makes sense
2021-12-18T12:25:32 < ventYl> ok, this part of espeak has rather stupid code organization
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2021-12-18T12:34:13 < Xogium> which part ?
2021-12-18T12:37:56 < ventYl> some details on how particular language sounds
2021-12-18T12:38:11 < ventYl> variables are inlined into functions, so they are not visible from outside
2021-12-18T12:38:20 < ventYl> no problem after all, that function will be cut out after all
2021-12-18T12:40:01 < Xogium> yecch that still sounds disgusting
2021-12-18T12:40:43 < ventYl> not the product, the source code itself
2021-12-18T12:40:58 < Xogium> yeah
2021-12-18T12:41:07 < ventYl> my aim is, naturally, not to change how espeak sounds. as I know shit about how TTS works :)
2021-12-18T12:41:18 < ventYl> especially the "business" portion of TTS
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2021-12-18T12:43:54 < Xogium> yeah that makes sense
2021-12-18T12:44:18 < Xogium> but even then, I think you've been doing an amazing job :D
2021-12-18T12:44:49 < ventYl> well, nothing works yet
2021-12-18T12:45:46 < ventYl> 7 warnings to fix
2021-12-18T12:48:23 < Xogium> true that it doesn't work yet, but I still think you've got very good ideas especially knowing you didn't know about espeak code and such not a week ago
2021-12-18T12:50:12 < ventYl> i assume that's a skill you can get
2021-12-18T12:50:23 < ventYl> you can be good at working with some specific technology
2021-12-18T12:50:34 < ventYl> or you can be goot at learning new technology fast
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2021-12-18T12:52:19 < Xogium> ;)
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2021-12-18T12:57:23 < ventYl> 5 to go
2021-12-18T13:00:17 < Steffanx> I'm still not sure what ventYl  is doing. Trying to port espeak to some mcu? All "static"?
2021-12-18T13:01:59 < Xogium> Steffanx: yes
2021-12-18T13:02:31 < Xogium> make it use dictionary from flash, all of that
2021-12-18T13:02:35 < ventYl> I am basically trying to serialize initialized espeak state into C source
2021-12-18T13:02:49 < ventYl> so you can compile most of it statically and place it into flash
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2021-12-18T18:17:45 < catphish> this chip describes its package as "8 SO" but i can't find any official info about this package, any ideas where to look? https://www.mouser.co.uk/datasheet/2/256/MAX3483_MAX3491-1292143.pdf
2021-12-18T18:21:42 < Steffanx> maximintegrated.com 
2021-12-18T18:22:53 < catphish> i found https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/design/packaging/package-information.html
2021-12-18T18:23:03 < catphish> but it doesn't recognise the existence of "8 SO" :(
2021-12-18T18:23:08 < Steffanx> like https://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/interface/transceivers/MAX3485.html lists footprints, land pattern etc.
2021-12-18T18:24:02 < catphish> oh, beautiful, thanks
2021-12-18T18:24:13 < catphish> i forgot online datasheets existed
2021-12-18T18:26:48 < catphish> fortunately, it's a totally generic SOIC-8 3.9 x 4.9 - i do enjoy checking though
2021-12-18T18:30:10 < ventYl> Xogium: well, it still seems to be working
2021-12-18T18:30:47 < ventYl> it crashes at the end, apparently because it tries to free() this static dictionary
2021-12-18T18:31:30 < Xogium> ah… yeah that would do it
2021-12-18T18:33:14 < ventYl> it still speaks to me
2021-12-18T18:33:47 < ventYl> now, espeak is technically self-modifying itself
2021-12-18T18:34:14 < Xogium> well, there's at least that :D
2021-12-18T18:35:05 < ventYl> 1.25MB of statically defined dictionary
2021-12-18T18:35:35 < ventYl> good is, that dictionary is actually loaded as part of voice loading workflow, so at that point both dictionary and voice are probably fully initialized
2021-12-18T18:36:30 < Xogium> damn yeah that sounds very promissing
2021-12-18T18:36:38 < Xogium> er promising, that was
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2021-12-18T18:52:45 < ventYl> ok, so LoadDictionary has some side-effects on stuff different than just the translator
2021-12-18T18:53:04 < ventYl> if I replace loaded dictionary by precompiled, then it still speaks
2021-12-18T18:53:20 < ventYl> if I remove loading procedure and simply replace the dictionary, then it remains silent
2021-12-18T18:54:23 < Xogium> that's interesting
2021-12-18T18:54:38 < Xogium> you'd think loading dictionary does well… just that
2021-12-18T18:55:10 < ventYl> the whole code is actually very entagled and interconnected
2021-12-18T18:55:47 < ventYl> yet at least I know that my capture of translator is correct so far. I just either need to capture something else, or let it to be initialized
2021-12-18T18:57:58 < Xogium> erk, entangled code is so annoying
2021-12-18T18:58:07 < ventYl> this code is not nice
2021-12-18T18:58:25 < Xogium> it must be from old espeak
2021-12-18T18:59:24 < ventYl> new maintainers did not a lot of cleanup either
2021-12-18T19:00:39 < ventYl> ok, i am gonna get some sleep, brb
2021-12-18T19:02:48 < Xogium> ventYl: rest well
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2021-12-18T20:07:25 < mawk> do you eat french food Xogium 
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2021-12-18T20:14:06 < PaulFertser> Do you mean frogs?
2021-12-18T20:15:19 < PaulFertser> Or croissants?
2021-12-18T20:17:26 < Steffanx> snails
2021-12-18T20:17:33 < Steffanx> So new lock down mawk.
2021-12-18T20:17:36 < Steffanx> No more work for you.
2021-12-18T20:17:42 < Steffanx> No more bar, school nothing.
2021-12-18T20:18:10 < Steffanx> only a gang bang with 1 person.
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2021-12-18T20:19:41 < mawk> really?
2021-12-18T20:19:45 < mawk> no work sounds good
2021-12-18T20:19:51 < mawk> but I can't work at home
2021-12-18T20:20:26 < Steffanx> haha, that part they didnt mention though.
2021-12-18T20:21:38 < Steffanx> but the bars, school etc are closed. 
2021-12-18T20:21:44 < Steffanx> and they want you to booooster.
2021-12-18T20:25:06 < mawk> I'm too young for boooooster
2021-12-18T20:25:15 < mawk> it's still 1960 or something
2021-12-18T20:25:24 < mawk> I don't go to bar or restaurant I don't care a lot
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2021-12-18T20:44:41 < catphish> one of these mouser part numbers is criminally negligent https://i.imgur.com/BM2Vp34.png
2021-12-18T20:44:58 < catphish> and yes, those are the actual mouser part numbers
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2021-12-18T21:06:47 < Steffanx> mawk: but your photoshop wont be opened either.
2021-12-18T21:08:57 < mawk> ohno Steffanx 
2021-12-18T21:09:03 < mawk> maybe op afspraak???
2021-12-18T21:09:40 < mawk> they still have to give me something
2021-12-18T21:12:51 < catphish> it's also my strong opinion that molex make too many connectors.
2021-12-18T21:13:02 < catphish> just make one good connector, and make sure it's in stock
2021-12-18T21:14:32 < mawk> catphish like this? https://xkcd.com/1406/
2021-12-18T21:15:14 < catphish> nice
2021-12-18T21:15:55 < catphish> i just want a 6 pin connector, molex mini-fit looks great, poplar, due to its use in ATX, that's where the simplicity ends
2021-12-18T21:16:03 < catphish> there are hundreds of them!
2021-12-18T21:18:52 < catphish> seriously, there are 298 micro-fit PCB mounted sockets
2021-12-18T21:19:36 < catphish> 31 6-pin ones, 15 right angle 6-pin ones
2021-12-18T21:20:53 < mawk> poplar
2021-12-18T21:20:56 < mawk> why not oak?
2021-12-18T21:27:05 < Steffanx> lol
2021-12-18T21:29:58 < kakium69> have you considered some obsolete or rare computer connectors catphish?
2021-12-18T21:30:25 < kakium69> good availibility in ali
2021-12-18T21:31:54 < catphish> kakium69: i've pretty much just settles on molex mini-fit jr, they're very popular
2021-12-18T21:32:11 < kakium69> yes
2021-12-18T21:32:47 < kakium69> you can get those from ali too
2021-12-18T21:33:37 < catphish> this is the guy, for now https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Molex/172647-0106?qs=OlC7AqGiEDnNxMs6v6S0dg%3D%3D
2021-12-18T21:41:52 < kakium69> sup catphish.. what you are doing atm?
2021-12-18T21:43:51 < kakium69> they used to say connectors are many times the most expensive part of a project
2021-12-18T21:44:11 < kakium69> now they say stm32's are the most expensive part of a project
2021-12-18T21:49:35 < catphish> kakium69: lol - i'm redesigning my BMS to be a bit more functional, with EVSE connectivity
2021-12-18T21:52:12 < kakium69> EVSE?
2021-12-18T21:52:57 < kakium69> are you planning to add physical interface for charger plug?
2021-12-18T21:53:09 < catphish> yes, "type 2 connector"
2021-12-18T21:53:18 < catphish> that's essential for any EV
2021-12-18T21:53:41 < catphish> which means you need to accept 230VAC, and talk the EVSE protocol, which is pretty simple
2021-12-18T21:54:03 < kakium69> how is your opel?
2021-12-18T21:54:20 < kakium69> still waiting for its turn?
2021-12-18T21:54:23 < catphish> still waiting for workshop space (hopefully available 1st jan)
2021-12-18T21:54:40 < catphish> but i haven't been short of work to do on the project in the meantime, mostly on the battery system
2021-12-18T21:55:23 < kakium69> have you modelled placing the batteries into the car?
2021-12-18T21:55:25 < catphish> i did some testing with a tesla charger, which works, but i've now decided to swap it for a chinese CAN controlled charger, and do everything else in a single unit of my own making
2021-12-18T21:55:29 < kakium69> of the batteries*
2021-12-18T21:55:40 < catphish> nope, waiting to get the carbon fibre shell off to measure up
2021-12-18T21:57:03 < mawk> you didn't enjoy my pun catphish 
2021-12-18T21:57:27 < mawk> I'm deeply disappointed
2021-12-18T21:57:35 < catphish> mawk: missed that entirely, sorry!
2021-12-18T22:03:44 < mawk> :(
2021-12-18T22:08:11 < kakium69> can I do like virtualbox like.. remote
2021-12-18T22:09:29 < kakium69> using desktop computer to run the machine and use another confusor to connect to that virtualbox
2021-12-18T22:12:19 < mawk> yes kakium69 
2021-12-18T22:12:24 < kakium69> I think virtualbox provides RDP?
2021-12-18T22:12:32 < mawk> windows provides rdp
2021-12-18T22:12:36 < mawk> use the rdp of the guest directly
2021-12-18T22:12:40 < mawk> to reach max perf
2021-12-18T22:12:58 < mawk> otherwise virtualbox itself provides spice or vnc probably, I don't know exactly
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2021-12-18T22:13:02 < mawk> is it a linux host?
2021-12-18T22:13:09 < kakium69> it can be
2021-12-18T22:13:18 < kakium69> guest is linux
2021-12-18T22:21:20 < Steffanx> yes kakium69
2021-12-18T22:21:29 < Steffanx> Go to settings, display, remote display.
2021-12-18T22:21:39 < Steffanx> settings of  your vm that is
2021-12-18T22:21:59 < kakium69> so is it better to use virtualbox remote or guest remote
2021-12-18T22:22:42 < Steffanx> i dont know, never bothered to use the virtualbox remote display
2021-12-18T22:22:59 < Steffanx> or guest remote
2021-12-18T22:24:45 < mawk> guest remote imo kakium69 
2021-12-18T22:24:54 < mawk> for linux guest use x2go
2021-12-18T22:25:17 < mawk> it's a giga optimized remote desktop thing 
2021-12-18T22:25:20 < mawk> for linucs
2021-12-18T22:25:34 < kakium69> I have used it but isn't it broken now or something?
2021-12-18T22:25:43 < kakium69> it stopped working when I used it
2021-12-18T22:26:05 < mawk> I haven't heard of that
2021-12-18T22:26:22 < kakium69> is it still alive?
2021-12-18T22:26:22 < mawk> someone probably fixed it by now if it was broken
2021-12-18T22:26:44 < mawk> yeah still releasing
2021-12-18T22:27:14 < mawk> alive and kicking
2021-12-18T22:29:42 < kakium69> problem might have been session start commands that changed over time
2021-12-18T22:30:14 < kakium69> I think I got like login but eeerrr could not start session something
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2021-12-18T22:31:46 < Xogium> hmm… If every time I touch my eye with gentle fingers or move it, as much as I can move it anyway, it hurts like someone punched me in the eye… what do you guys think ?
2021-12-18T22:31:53 < Xogium> this just started out of nowhere
2021-12-18T22:32:56 < Xogium> it its not a burning pain, litterally feels like a punch
2021-12-18T22:34:30 < zyp> maybe you should get it looked at?
2021-12-18T22:35:14 < mawk> stop touching your eyes Xogium 
2021-12-18T22:35:15 < Xogium> yeah… that sounds like a good idea… it's gone overboard with sensitivity somehow
2021-12-18T22:35:23 < mawk> and yes get it checked ASAP
2021-12-18T22:35:52 < mawk> eye/ear/teeth problem can quickly degenerate, due to the proximity of the brain
2021-12-18T22:36:45 < Xogium> so what, if its inffected it could decide to go bother my brain or something ?
2021-12-18T22:37:15 < mawk> yes
2021-12-18T22:37:31 < Xogium> yecch
2021-12-18T22:37:50 < mawk> well don't worry too much nor panic
2021-12-18T22:37:56 < mawk> just get it checked
2021-12-18T22:38:06 < kakium69> do you keep your eyes open or closed Xogium?
2021-12-18T22:39:05 < Xogium> I was just doing stuff around my place like chores and then I had like this supermassive blink of the eye even I could feel it, I usually don't, and gosh the pain. Was totally unexpected and I dropped the glass I was holding
2021-12-18T22:39:36 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-18T22:39:54 < Xogium> I've been told they are usually half open mostly, cause I can't force them open further
2021-12-18T22:41:34 < mawk> you can't feel how they are currently?
2021-12-18T22:41:40 < Xogium> but that's probably more to do with the fact I litterally don't know how to keep them open
2021-12-18T22:42:03 < Xogium> and the fact that after nearly 26 years of being unused the muscles must be weak as hell
2021-12-18T22:42:15 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-18T22:42:25 < Xogium> not really no, don't have much notice of that
2021-12-18T22:42:33 < Xogium> can't feel them move usually either
2021-12-18T22:44:53 < Xogium> I never went to see an eye doctor, my family figured it was pretty much unnecessary since I was already blind. So if hyperoxia did anything besides pulverize my retinas to nothing, I don't know
2021-12-18T22:45:05 < Xogium> for all I know it caused glaucoma or any sort of stuff
2021-12-18T22:45:08 < mawk> a
2021-12-18T22:45:19 < mawk> do you see shadows or light?
2021-12-18T22:45:31 < kakium69> you could prank eye doctor
2021-12-18T22:45:41 < mawk> lol
2021-12-18T22:46:40 < kakium69> I don't know how but
2021-12-18T22:47:27 < mawk> "I woke up like this, I can't see anymore"
2021-12-18T22:47:38 < Xogium> hah
2021-12-18T22:47:38 < kakium69> something along those lines
2021-12-18T22:47:48 < Xogium> yep that litterally happened to my father
2021-12-18T22:47:58 < mawk> really?
2021-12-18T22:48:18 < mawk> is it genetic?
2021-12-18T22:48:25 < Xogium> one day he went out with my mother doing some shopping and stuff, came back and went to bed, and woke up blind in one eye. They never found why
2021-12-18T22:49:10 < mawk> weird
2021-12-18T22:49:42 < Xogium> yeah, he did all kind of tests at the doctor, blood tests, they checked his eyes but couldn't find anything wrong with them
2021-12-18T22:50:05 < Xogium> probably the pathway in the brain being killed or something
2021-12-18T22:51:11 < Steffanx> he's still alive and doesnt want to know? I assume this happened a long time ago and and the medical world progressed a little in the mean time..
2021-12-18T22:51:29 < Xogium> yeah, happened quite a while back, I think I was like 5
2021-12-18T22:51:52 < Steffanx> and now you are.. 30?
2021-12-18T22:52:05 < Xogium> will be 26 next year
2021-12-18T22:52:57 < Xogium> I remember being confused that his blindness was in just one eye and I offered him my white cane so he could move around
2021-12-18T22:53:00 < Xogium> :D
2021-12-18T22:53:12 < Steffanx> haha, little bastard :P
2021-12-18T22:53:21 < mawk> in which month Xogium ?
2021-12-18T22:53:29 < Xogium> april ;)
2021-12-18T22:54:33 < mawk> omg I'm younger than you
2021-12-18T22:54:43 < Xogium> really ?
2021-12-18T22:55:37 < mawk> yes
2021-12-18T22:56:02 < Xogium> somehow I thought it was the oposite
2021-12-18T22:56:21 < Xogium> I don't know why hah I feel like I was one of the youngest folks in here
2021-12-18T22:57:04 < karlp> catphish: a lot of the variation are things that matter for some people, but that not everyone should have to pay for, like different materials for the housings, or gold vs tin vs how _much_ gold on teh contacts...
2021-12-18T22:57:46 < karlp> ah, I was further in the scrollback than I thought..
2021-12-18T22:59:22 < Xogium> ugh and of course now with the holydays it will have to wait. Erk
2021-12-18T22:59:25 < HelloShitty> Hello. I'm still playing with the cocks of my tm32l412cb6t chip. So, if I setup clocks properly to the max frequency of 80Mhz, is exactly this value that will find in TIM1?
2021-12-18T22:59:37 < catphish> karlp: yeah, that's the issue it seems, which at least for me means i can choose whichever one is in stock once i have a list
2021-12-18T22:59:40  * Xogium giggles
2021-12-18T22:59:41 < Xogium> sorry
2021-12-18T22:59:52 < Xogium> nice… typo
2021-12-18T22:59:58 < kakium69> any idea why in fem solver coil current is set in examples as 2742?
2021-12-18T23:00:18 < kakium69> does any physical constants align with that number
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2021-12-18T23:33:23 < karlp> catphish: yeah, I get the feeling though, like, "what's the fucking actual difference between this shit?"
2021-12-18T23:42:49 < BrainDamage> karlp: asketh and ye shall receive https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acsnano.9b00184
2021-12-18T23:51:05 < karlp> lol, nice one
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2021-12-18T23:59:53 < fenugrec> BrainDamage, that paper is excellent
--- Day changed Sun Dec 19 2021
2021-12-19T00:01:33 < Xogium> damn it I'm not sure I will manage to sleep with this eye hurting like it does
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2021-12-19T00:22:36 < HelloShitty> karlp: lil help here. I was searcing libopencm3 for systick examples and I found this file: https://github.com/libopencm3/libopencm3-examples/blob/master/examples/stm32/f0/stm32f0-discovery/systick_blink/systick_blink.c
2021-12-19T00:23:16 < HelloShitty> reading the code I find at line 41 a maacro that I can't find in doxygen libopencm3 docs: STK_CSR_CLKSOURCE_EXT
2021-12-19T00:23:47 < HelloShitty> Is this example, outated or is this macro somewhere and I couldn't just find it?
2021-12-19T00:24:12 < ventYl> did you try to grep sources?
2021-12-19T00:24:48 < HelloShitty> not yet
2021-12-19T00:25:24 < ventYl> the name variables and macros are named leads to where to search for documentation
2021-12-19T00:25:34 < ventYl> like, outside of locm3
2021-12-19T00:30:11 < Xogium> oh, welcome back ventYl :)
2021-12-19T00:31:42 < HelloShitty> not yetso what are the possible macros/sources for the systick_set_cloucksource() function?
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2021-12-19T00:37:23 < fenugrec> HelloShitty, grep "STK_CSR...." -R
2021-12-19T00:37:40 < fenugrec> then you go "aah, that's where it was... oh there's some other neat stuff in there too"
2021-12-19T00:43:11 < HelloShitty> $ git grep STK_CSR_CLKSOURCE_EXT -R
2021-12-19T00:43:12 < HelloShitty> fatal: option '-R' must come before non-option arguments
2021-12-19T00:43:34 < fenugrec> I didn't say git grep
2021-12-19T00:43:36 < fenugrec> grep
2021-12-19T00:44:14 < HelloShitty> oki
2021-12-19T00:44:50 < ventYl> Xogium: I am playing with that static espeak
2021-12-19T00:45:04 < ventYl> I can push the code online, if you want try to break it
2021-12-19T00:45:14 < Xogium> hah, sure
2021-12-19T00:45:31 < Xogium> so like just run the typical ./configure && make and such ?
2021-12-19T00:46:19 < ventYl> yeah, i have hacked a routine, which will dump C source for "en" dictionary during dict compilation phase
2021-12-19T00:46:59 < ventYl> and if that is found later during compilation, it is used during build and hopefully also used
2021-12-19T00:47:57 < Xogium> nice
2021-12-19T00:48:31 < Xogium> sure, can try and make it explode… hehe
2021-12-19T00:48:57 < Xogium> but how do I know if it uses the statically built dictionary ?
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2021-12-19T00:52:14 < ventYl_> router rebooted
2021-12-19T00:52:48 < ventYl_> Xogium: on first build, standard dict path is used
2021-12-19T00:52:50 < Xogium> not nice router
2021-12-19T00:53:17 < ventYl_> on later build, if statically generated dictionary is found, it is used
2021-12-19T00:53:40 < Xogium> ah, I get it
2021-12-19T00:53:56 -!- ventYl [~ventyl@adsl-dyn251.78-98-103.t-com.sk] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
2021-12-19T00:54:09 < ventYl_> there is a macro on top of one source file, which allows switching between load dictionary dynamically, then throw it out and use static if found *and* use static dict directly
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2021-12-19T00:56:21 < Xogium> cool
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2021-12-19T01:32:29 < ventYl> Xogium: https://github.com/ventZl/espeak-ng/tree/mcubuild
2021-12-19T01:33:20 < ventYl> YMMV; and it only works for english so far
2021-12-19T01:35:32 < Xogium> cool
2021-12-19T01:35:37 < Xogium> I'll try to play with it
2021-12-19T01:38:33 < ventYl> you can check that it works by running git status. after first build, new header file should be created
2021-12-19T01:39:00 < ventYl> it may then need to either re-run configure, make dep or touch dictionary.c in order for this file to be picked up
2021-12-19T01:39:27 < ventYl> autohell dependency tracking is notoriously unreliable
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2021-12-19T02:42:36 < kakium69> fuufuu
2021-12-19T02:43:29 < kakium69> after generating mesh I realized I needed mesh for air too
2021-12-19T02:43:46 < kakium69> better continue tommorow
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2021-12-19T05:51:38 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-19T05:52:33 < Xogium> ventYl: so I tried this and did get the .h file in my repo, but make dep says no rule to build target dep, and rerunning configure didn't seem to make it pick up dictionary.c in any way so I ended up touching that file
2021-12-19T05:53:18 < Xogium> but dictionary.c stayed empty, no idea if its normal
2021-12-19T05:55:55 < Xogium> anyway… it worked for sure because I see this
2021-12-19T05:56:16 < Xogium> free(): invalid pointer
2021-12-19T05:56:18 < Xogium> Abandon (core dumped)
2021-12-19T06:02:33 < Xogium> hmm still, it seems rock solid beyond that at the end of each execution, and even trying crazy stuff like accelerating the speech rate, pitch and such it doesn't mind. Even made it read some text file
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2021-12-19T10:57:35 < ventYl> Xogium: that abort() is just a leftover. i didn't care to clean it up. bad is, that if you flip the macro on top of src/libespeak-ng/dictionary.c, it will still build, but will remain muted
2021-12-19T10:57:39 < ventYl> at least here it was
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2021-12-19T11:19:04 < HelloShitty> fenugrec: yesterday I tried using that macro but compiler suggested to use STK_CSR_CLKSOURCE_LSB instead
2021-12-19T11:20:27 < HelloShitty> So I did  but what I get is not pretty as it looks more like noise than anything else. And not only that, if I change the "rcc_ahb_frequency" from the example to something like 4e6 or 10e6 or 80e6, it changes nothing
2021-12-19T11:20:35 < HelloShitty> So, I'm still going wrong somewhere
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2021-12-19T12:52:15 < Xogium> ventYl: ah… I can try that
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2021-12-19T13:29:18 < Xogium> ventYl: so what do I change exactly ? I saw you did an ifdef
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2021-12-19T13:42:18 < ventYl> Xogium: on top of dictionary.c there is commented out define and uncommented undef of same macro. switch comment, so that the macro will be defined
2021-12-19T13:42:51 < ventYl> Xogium: that will cause LoadDirectory() to be replaced with one-liner which will simply replace translator by the statically compiled version and completely skip any dictionary loading
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2021-12-19T13:44:41 < Xogium> oh
2021-12-19T13:46:32 < Xogium> damn, espeak's code sure isn't nice
2021-12-19T13:46:43 < Xogium> 3 tons of warnings when building
2021-12-19T13:47:31 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-19T13:47:59 < Xogium> why does the compilation itself produce invalid pointer ?
2021-12-19T13:48:58 < Xogium> and yeah it stays silent here too… my guess is compilation didn't finish properly so it could be missing some stuff ?
2021-12-19T13:49:19 < ventYl> Xogium: that's my code. signed / unsigned doesn't match. I assume that this is not a big deal
2021-12-19T13:49:47 < Xogium> hmm maybe not
2021-12-19T13:49:49 < ventYl> compilation finish properly. I guess that either dictionary loading process has some side effects or I missed something during serialization
2021-12-19T13:50:09 < Xogium> oh so dict compilation is the last step ?
2021-12-19T13:50:52 < Xogium> so it finishes ok, even if its in fact crashing in our face
2021-12-19T13:51:18 < Xogium> maybe strace could be useful
2021-12-19T13:51:47 < ventYl> that crash you've seen during compilation is the same, you see during run. dictionary compilation is part of the build. there build system calls espeak-ng it just built to compile the dictionaries
2021-12-19T13:52:01 < Xogium> ah, makes sense
2021-12-19T13:52:26 < ventYl> so once you use tainted espeak using static dictionary, it will crash just before exiting
2021-12-19T13:52:38 < Xogium> though how in the world is it going to call espeak-ng to compile dictionaries if you cross-compile it for arm is beyond me :p
2021-12-19T13:52:57 < ventYl> that's because code tries to free the dictionary, which normally is dynamically allocated. but tainted version uses statically allocated one. and that crashes
2021-12-19T13:53:10 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-19T13:53:31 < Xogium> I see
2021-12-19T13:53:31 < ventYl> more like, free() will realize that instance is not on the heap and aborts
2021-12-19T13:53:44 < Xogium> yeah, as it should do
2021-12-19T13:54:23 < ventYl> yet the fact that statically allocated dictionary itself works is still a huge achievement given the amount of work it consumed
2021-12-19T13:55:11 < Xogium> the last time I delt with pointers going crazy was to fix an issue in the linux kernel space screen reader. They had a pointer pointing to another pointer that sometimes wasn't valid. Press one key and bang ! Kernel panic
2021-12-19T13:56:30 < Xogium> basically linux went like, nop, no way you're getting away with what you just did, buddy. Then it killed the kernel module and went, oh shit
2021-12-19T13:56:53 < Xogium> when a module crashes it generally leads to oops and then to panic… and that's exactly what it did
2021-12-19T13:57:58 < ventYl> sudden death
2021-12-19T13:58:05 < Xogium> quite so
2021-12-19T13:58:21 < Xogium> one second you're typing stuff, the next you're like, wait, why did my computer freeze
2021-12-19T13:59:04 < Xogium> I was lucky, had a friend at my place that day and he came up behind me to check what I was doing and saw it was written kernel panic and all sort of stuff
2021-12-19T13:59:46 < Xogium> that was back when I still had a laptop
2021-12-19T14:01:27 < Xogium> but now I don't have any monitor, didn't feel like wasting space on my desk
2021-12-19T14:02:03 < Xogium> I just have a dummy hdmi dongle, oh and a real rs232 port that I put a nice pcie bracket to expose to the back of my tower
2021-12-19T14:04:56 < Xogium> usually I connect my braille display there but I can connect a rs232 to usb adapter instead so it can transfer any crash message to a sbc
2021-12-19T14:05:51 < Xogium> only annoying thing is the uefi bios is stupid and doesn't give the serial console to the payloads so my bootloader doesn't talk over serial
2021-12-19T14:06:21 < ventYl> I guess, that the root issue, why it is muted, will be, that voice still holds reference to translator, which is deliberately removed
2021-12-19T14:06:28 < Xogium> but at least, short of my bootloader going crazy, I should be relatively okay
2021-12-19T14:06:51 < ventYl> and while the original code first initializes it and only then replaces it by static one, reference is pointing to deleted, bud valid data
2021-12-19T14:07:04 < Xogium> oh
2021-12-19T14:07:16 < Xogium> yeah… that could certainly cause problems
2021-12-19T14:08:37 < kakium69> did you go to eye doctor Xogium?
2021-12-19T14:08:52 < Xogium> kakium69: they are closed all over the place. Stupid holydays
2021-12-19T14:11:29 < Xogium> but I asked one of my neighbors to look at it and he said that it looked fine visually, at least… I mean, my eyes are white but that's became their normal color so that part is ok
2021-12-19T14:11:44 < Xogium> but to know more I'll have to wait I guess
2021-12-19T14:13:41 < Xogium> at least its not swelling up or looking like it would be inffected, or showing any veins, things like that
2021-12-19T14:14:56 < kakium69> nice neighbor
2021-12-19T14:15:31 < Xogium> yeah, I have nice ones around, but also really not nice ones
2021-12-19T14:15:32 < ventYl> it's nice outside, i guess I am going for walk
2021-12-19T14:16:17 < Xogium> I wonder if doliprane would work to at least mute the pain a bit
2021-12-19T14:16:35 < Xogium> its actually very distracting and I slept like 3 or 4 hours max because of it
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2021-12-19T14:17:02 < kakium69> do you have anything to cover the eye?
2021-12-19T14:17:26 < Xogium> hmm I have my sunglasses, but it wouldn't provide a perfect cover
2021-12-19T14:17:29 < ventYl> yeah, eye pain is bad. once friend's son wanted to show me something and managed to scratch my eye with corner of picture frame
2021-12-19T14:17:37 < Xogium> oww
2021-12-19T14:17:38 < ventYl> that hurt like fuck
2021-12-19T14:17:59 < kakium69> it could be light sensitivity Xogium
2021-12-19T14:18:26 < kakium69> uveitis oro such
2021-12-19T14:18:30 < Steffanx> Yes, lets internet doctor instead of visiting someone who might know.
2021-12-19T14:18:31 < kakium69> *or
2021-12-19T14:18:34 < Xogium> ventYl: currently mine feels like if someone gave their best punch straight to it
2021-12-19T14:19:03 < kakium69> Steffanx: it doesn't hurt to cover it
2021-12-19T14:19:07 < ventYl> Xogium: whole half of head hurt that time, as if someone treated me with baseball stick
2021-12-19T14:19:56 < Xogium> Steffanx: well to be fair, like I said every doctor are closed because of stupid holydays so will have to wait until a few days in january
2021-12-19T14:19:57 < ventYl> damn fuckers. last winter I have replaced one cooling fitting on car. the original one lasted like 25 years and then started leaking. replacement lasted for almost one year and it is leaking again
2021-12-19T14:20:18 < kakium69> volkswagium?
2021-12-19T14:20:23 < Xogium> :D
2021-12-19T14:20:34 < ventYl> this particular engine was never used in any VW, but yeah, VW/Audi
2021-12-19T14:21:10 < kakium69> there is some fun quick connect clips in VW
2021-12-19T14:21:19 < ventYl> like, couldn't you start leaking in summer? I know you couldn't because it is not the same level of joy dealing with it in freezing temperatures
2021-12-19T14:22:22 < ventYl> this is plastic insert which goes directly into head via an O-ring. original insert was cracked in O-ring groove
2021-12-19T14:22:33 < ventYl> I guess this one is too
2021-12-19T14:23:16 < kakium69> 1.9tdi used to blow radiator quick connect off and spit coolants across the road
2021-12-19T14:24:19 < kakium69> spring clamp thing that locks the quick connect was corroded and basically was not sitting well in place
2021-12-19T14:24:53 < ventYl> this thing is wet in between head and plastic insert. hose clamp is dry
2021-12-19T14:25:36 < ventYl> good that I bought five of them last year. I expected it will be shit
2021-12-19T14:25:58 < kakium69> currently head gasket is leaking. the car is "marking it's territory"
2021-12-19T14:26:35 < ventYl> I always wonder how it is possible to improve things by actually making them worse
2021-12-19T14:27:00 < kakium69> you make the thing out of metal ventYl
2021-12-19T14:28:00 < kakium69> billet coolant connector
2021-12-19T14:28:57 < ventYl> that's actually a good idea. It should be possible to cast this shit out of aluminium
2021-12-19T14:29:45 < ventYl> it has simple shape, so it will be trivial to machine it to exact dimensions
2021-12-19T14:30:59 < kakium69> it just so many times that unreliability of a car has to do with a material being plastic when it should not be
2021-12-19T14:32:06 < Xogium> but metal would be vulnerable to corrosion wouldn't it ?
2021-12-19T14:32:10 < kakium69> true
2021-12-19T14:32:24 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-19T14:32:41 < Xogium> now I know not a thing in cars but, couldn't something like ceramic work ?
2021-12-19T14:32:58 < kakium69> maybe
2021-12-19T14:33:07 < kakium69> but sounds like a pain to manufacture
2021-12-19T14:33:17 < Xogium> yeah :/
2021-12-19T14:34:46 < ventYl> aluminium is good, relatively lightweight and immune to corrosion
2021-12-19T14:35:03 < kakium69> unless it meets steel casting
2021-12-19T14:35:16 < ventYl> actually, the only reason why there is a plastic insert in this aluminium cast head is, that they wanted the shape to be more simple
2021-12-19T14:35:40 < kakium69> you have lathe ventYl?
2021-12-19T14:35:47 < ventYl> yeah
2021-12-19T14:36:05 < kakium69> you done aluminium casting before?
2021-12-19T14:36:30 < ventYl> nope, just seen the theory around it as presented by MyfordBoy
2021-12-19T14:36:37 < ventYl> it seems doable
2021-12-19T14:36:45 < kakium69> it's like pretty dangerous
2021-12-19T14:36:57 < kakium69> mold needs to be dry
2021-12-19T14:37:21 < ventYl> yeah, you have to consider that you have like 1400*C molten aluminium
2021-12-19T14:37:46 < ventYl> and I guess that home-made that part will cost the same as if it was mass-produced out of gold
2021-12-19T14:37:46 < Xogium> heh, they make some white cane tips from ceramic, too… There are the ones made out of plastic but really, the problem with the plastic ones is that they end up all worn out by rolling so much on the ground
2021-12-19T14:37:54 < kakium69> it has something to do with like.. water turning into hydrogen and oxygen
2021-12-19T14:37:58 < Xogium> ceramic has that too but it takes waaaay longer like 5 or 6 years
2021-12-19T14:38:19 < kakium69> then it goes boom and spits molten aluminium all over the place
2021-12-19T14:38:45 < ventYl> kakium69: yeah, vapour decomposition. after reaching some 400 *C, water vapour is not stable anymore and starts decomposing. that's the major reason why it blown off reactor roofs from Fukushima NPP
2021-12-19T14:39:07 < Xogium> oh wow, didn't know that
2021-12-19T14:39:18 < Xogium> so it decompose back to oxygen and hydrogen ?
2021-12-19T14:39:29 < ventYl> yeah
2021-12-19T14:39:57 < Xogium> didn't know that was a thing, interesting
2021-12-19T14:40:25 < kakium69> but why it's aluminium casting that is so dangerous and not steel casting?
2021-12-19T14:40:45 < ventYl> the trouble with fukushima was that they had emergency "cooling water refill port". but tsunami turned surroundings of NPP to trash so they did not manage to bring water tank to this port soon after the accident
2021-12-19T14:40:49 < kakium69> or is it that so many home players have f
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2021-12-19T14:40:57 < kakium69> f'ed themselfs with aluminium
2021-12-19T14:41:34 < ventYl> and once they managed, the pressure inside reactor was so high, that the pump they had wasn't powerful enough to put any fresh water inside
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2021-12-19T14:42:21 < ventYl> you can't really do steel casting at home. afaik, brass casting is marginally doable with really expensive equipment
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2021-12-19T14:43:01 < kakium69> ventYl: because of the temperature required to melt steel?
2021-12-19T14:43:44 < ventYl> not only that. you also need crucible which withstands that temperature
2021-12-19T14:45:28 < ventYl> and also mass of steel being molten. you need to feed it with a lot of heat. ideally quite quicly so losses are small. if not, then you have to heat it for hours and 50% of your energy will leak as losses
2021-12-19T14:45:57 < kakium69> preheat the mold too?
2021-12-19T14:46:33 < ventYl> with steel that is probably not as critical as with aluminium, but it will definitely help preventing mold cracking
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2021-12-19T14:47:14 < kakium69> only method of melting steel for casting purpose would be arc oven?
2021-12-19T14:47:19 < ventYl> aluminium molds are preheated mainly to avoid cooling down aluminium prematurely
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2021-12-19T14:48:04 < ventYl> well, you can try the traditional method involving generating and burning CO, but I guess you will kill someone sooner or later. probably sooner than later
2021-12-19T14:49:22 < ventYl> but this part is in fact so small, it could be made entierly on lathe. there would be a bit more of trash, but it is definitely doable
2021-12-19T14:49:52 < kakium69> you need just piece of aluminium rod?
2021-12-19T14:52:22 < ventYl> yeah, it's shape is basically the same as standard brass hose inserts you use to connect two garden hoses. just one end goes into cylinder head via O-ring instead of hose
2021-12-19T14:53:00 < ventYl> and it has "nose" with hole for screw which holds it in place. but that can be replaced by shim or something else
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2021-12-19T14:53:54 < fenugrec> ah yes. I've made some of those, but went fancy with a milled flange (for that mounting hole), and a piece of tube with the o-ring groove, then weld both together
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2021-12-19T14:54:02 < fenugrec> labour-intensive but it was a custom part anyway
2021-12-19T14:54:30 < kakium69> just leave like the flange and then cut sides out with grinder if required
2021-12-19T15:02:49 < kakium69> then hand drill the hole for screw
2021-12-19T15:06:16 < kakium69> unless you have a mill too ventYl?
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2021-12-19T15:22:08 < jpa-> meh, kicad 6 crashed and apparently autosave doesn't work
2021-12-19T15:23:41 < jpa-> also, gitlab.com does not allow searching issues without login
2021-12-19T15:46:02 < catphish_> this board doesn't seem very well assembled :) https://i.imgur.com/h65O71D.png
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2021-12-19T15:58:13 < kakium69> simulated assembly fault
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2021-12-19T17:09:32 < catphish> almost there with this "v2 BMS" https://i.imgur.com/7BMT0iv.png
2021-12-19T17:16:37 < Steffanx> nicely shaped pcb
2021-12-19T17:22:11 < ventYl> why it is so irregular?
2021-12-19T17:22:38 < catphish> i drew the outline at random for fun, i don't think i will manufacture it like that
2021-12-19T17:24:46 < catphish> i decided to roll with the terrible wifi adapter connection that everyone else in openinverter community uses
2021-12-19T17:27:08 < Steffanx> Maybe add some mounting holes next to it? So you can tie wrap them to the board if you need to (or 3d print some holder)
2021-12-19T17:27:32 < Steffanx> A pin header connection like that in a car.. -_-
2021-12-19T17:28:13 < jpa-> just hotglue it :)
2021-12-19T17:28:47 < jpa-> catphish: that microusb port looks like it will be a bit hard to plug into ;)
2021-12-19T17:29:32 < Steffanx> ill hot glue you, jpa-
2021-12-19T17:30:17 < Xogium> jpa- better run
2021-12-19T17:30:22 < Xogium> :D
2021-12-19T17:30:35 < Steffanx> It
2021-12-19T17:31:00 < Steffanx> -It
2021-12-19T17:31:06 < jpa-> it's more fun to let steffie get close first
2021-12-19T17:31:44 < ventYl> catphish: why do you even place wifi at something, which will have such a brutal currents running along?
2021-12-19T17:32:37 < jpa-> isn't that a great reason to have wifi? so you can stay safe distance away when testing
2021-12-19T17:32:49 < catphish> ventYl: there are no currents anywhere near this thing :)
2021-12-19T17:33:02 < catphish> well, no this module anyway
2021-12-19T17:33:49 < BrainDamage> is it going inside another thick metal box too?
2021-12-19T17:34:44 < Steffanx> catphish just likes thick traces :)
2021-12-19T17:35:51 < catphish> i do like thick traces, but this is probably a plastic box part :) it's low voltage control
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2021-12-19T18:32:02 < catphish> i have a shockingly newbie question. how on earth does one switch the +12v side of a load from a MCU?
2021-12-19T18:32:27 < specing> with a high side fet
2021-12-19T18:33:27 < kakium69> Pmos
2021-12-19T18:33:44 < kakium69> pull down gate with npn or nmos
2021-12-19T18:34:05 < kakium69> or use a switcher product
2021-12-19T18:34:32 < kakium69> https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/power/smart-low-side-high-side-switches/high-side-switches/
2021-12-19T18:34:35 < catphish> oh i see, PMOS, pull-up to 12V pull down with nmos
2021-12-19T18:35:07 < kakium69> what are you switching?
2021-12-19T18:35:09 < catphish> like this https://i.stack.imgur.com/8xVE6.png
2021-12-19T18:35:24 < kakium69> that works
2021-12-19T18:35:46 < kakium69> gate has voltage limitations
2021-12-19T18:35:51 < catphish> well, specificaly what i have are 3 x 12V LEDs with a common GND
2021-12-19T18:36:35 < catphish> and i want to drive them from 3v3
2021-12-19T18:36:35 < kakium69> so you might want to clamp that gate to +12V with diode or so
2021-12-19T18:36:43 < kakium69> and pulldown via resistor
2021-12-19T18:37:45 < catphish> that's a lot of components to drive 3 LEDs :'(
2021-12-19T18:39:45 < catphish> thanks!
2021-12-19T18:40:56 < qyx> couldn't you switch negative?
2021-12-19T18:45:59 < ventYl> it's common
2021-12-19T19:07:31 < catphish> no, it's common :(
2021-12-19T19:08:21 < catphish> this is the device https://zero-ev.co.uk/product/led-rgb-charge-push-button/?v=79cba1185463 - https://zero-ev.co.uk/RGB-Charge-Button.pdf?v=79cba1185463
2021-12-19T19:08:51 < catphish> i'm just going to make it its own control board
2021-12-19T19:12:10 < kakium69> it's just 2 sot23s and some passives
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2021-12-19T19:50:34 < qyx> yeah it common to swich negative
2021-12-19T19:56:55 < mawk> lol
2021-12-19T19:57:50 < mawk> switch the common ground catphish 
2021-12-19T19:57:54 < mawk> what's wrong with that
2021-12-19T19:58:13 < mawk> nobody cares about which led is on
2021-12-19T19:58:17 < mawk> turn them all on
2021-12-19T20:05:16 < catphish> that's certainly one approach
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2021-12-20T02:56:21 < karlp> HelloShitty: you can file a ticket for STK_CSR_CLKSOURCE_EXT not being in doxygen, but it's still in the code, andwould have compiled, have you got something else you can't work with? I agree that broken docs are teh suck, but at the end of the day, docs are secondary, the headers and library code are absolutely primary, as they are the functional pieces.
2021-12-20T02:58:44 < karlp> HelloShitty: what you appear to have run into is that armv6-m defines systick to have two clock sources, "external" (_EXT) and "AHB" (_AHB) whereas v7m defines "AHB" (_AHB) and "AHB divided by 8" ("_AHV_DIV8)" and there's not a lot I can do to help you with that
2021-12-20T03:00:27 < karlp> HelloShitty: the globals rcc_a**_frequency are set by the high level clock routines, and used by some of the high level peripheral routines, to work out things like uart clocks.  setting it arbitrarily doesn't do anything on it's own...
2021-12-20T03:01:31 < karlp> jpa-: yeah gitlabnot allowing issue search without login is such a fuck you to users.
2021-12-20T03:02:26 < karlp> so much hate for that sort of behaviour, "we're better than github because we're.... not free either, but somewhat, by some measures, free-er than github, but you should still tolerate us being worse in every othe rway..."
2021-12-20T03:09:38 < qyx> hm I perceive gitlab to be >>> github once I started actually using it
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2021-12-20T11:25:40 < jpa-> haha, top icecube2 bug so far: when i had an empty path setting in the ini file, icecube proceeded to remove parts of itself from my system :D
2021-12-20T11:26:25 < jpa-> apparently it has something like rm -rf $BUILD_PATH somewhere, though i'm not sure how it ended up with its own executable folder as the default value
2021-12-20T11:48:25 < zyp> haha
2021-12-20T11:49:51 < Xogium> morning
2021-12-20T11:50:09 < ventYl> morning
2021-12-20T11:52:00 < Xogium> about gitlab… to me, they are basically worse than github, because they don't care about accessibility
2021-12-20T11:52:26 < Xogium> friend of mine has been sending them emails to signal accessibility issues for the past 2 years, and none were fixed
2021-12-20T11:53:09 < Xogium> it started small, like putting the code for their stupid tooltips that every repo shows in the alt tag for html… bunch of idiots, that alt tag is designed to describe images to blind people
2021-12-20T11:53:18 < Xogium> but now it is getting a LOT worse
2021-12-20T11:55:30 < PaulFertser> Xogium: gitlab installations have APIs and there're proper CLI clients for it afaik.
2021-12-20T11:55:38 < PaulFertser> So is this really relevant?
2021-12-20T11:56:43 < karlp> what, web uis should be acessible too? why wouldy ou question that?
2021-12-20T11:56:53 < Xogium> well, there might be, but I don't like to use a cli client just to check out some repo I'm not even sure is what I want, would be nice if I could check and do things in the browser like anyone else
2021-12-20T11:58:10 < PaulFertser> karlp: many web uis are hardly accessible even to sighted people, so the best one could do is to work on improving proper clients using APIs of the services in question.
2021-12-20T11:58:46 < ventYl> quality of web UIs has degraded over years in terms of content vs. garbage ratio
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2021-12-20T11:59:12 < Xogium> I still think they deliberately shouldn't make it unusable to screen rader users
2021-12-20T11:59:16 < Xogium> er
2021-12-20T11:59:16 < ventYl> back when I was still doing webdesign, the rule was that your web must make sense when you turn off CSS (and work with JS turned off)
2021-12-20T11:59:26 < Xogium> mistyped that but…
2021-12-20T12:00:10 < rajkosto> ventYl, never gonna happen these days
2021-12-20T12:00:40 < ventYl> I know, I browse web with noscript activated in paranoid mode
2021-12-20T12:00:45 < PaulFertser> Xogium: indeed, but do they just ignore "merge requests" that fix that?
2021-12-20T12:00:54 < Xogium> I mean, oh sure its all pretty for sighted folks because they see the tooltips like they should appear, and too bad if we don't get clear rendering of what the tooltips show if using assistive tech. Instead of knowing the language and etc of any repo, I skip over that part because I hear html code with span tags and div and etc.
2021-12-20T12:01:30 < mawk> do you use the "skip to content" buttons Xogium ? in web pages
2021-12-20T12:01:38 < mawk> the one you get when you do tab for the first time on the page
2021-12-20T12:01:55 < Xogium> depends, if its got proper headers and such its generally even faster to navigate by headders in my screen reader
2021-12-20T12:01:59 < Xogium> but if I must
2021-12-20T12:03:53 < Xogium> we have many keyboard shortcuts that allow to move between things like, move from header to header, and even particular hader level
2021-12-20T12:04:06 < Xogium> like if I press 3 on my keyboard it will bring me to the next header of that level
2021-12-20T12:04:26 < Xogium> so if I know whatever I'm searching for is level 2 I can generally access it fast
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2021-12-20T12:07:00 < karlp> PaulFertser: so do you expect the web operator to now provide two uis? or who's meant to be maintaining this perfect CLI tool using the api?
2021-12-20T12:09:58 < Xogium> one other example of website with really poor navigation is hacker news. They also have cli things
2021-12-20T12:10:23 < Xogium> but I'm like, why ? Why just not fix the web ui instead of making a totally separate tool
2021-12-20T12:11:17 < PaulFertser> karlp: I do not like almost all web uis that I occassionally use, so I'd prefer for them to not exist.
2021-12-20T12:11:30 < Xogium> wouldn't be so damn hard to make it so each post and each comment has a header associated with itself would it
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2021-12-20T12:26:09 < ventYl> so it turns out, that fittings used to connect parts of heating system in my house have HUGE hydraulic resistance and all of my calculations were off for years
2021-12-20T12:26:23 < ventYl> it only was working because old boiler was ridiculously powerful pump
2021-12-20T12:26:47 < ventYl> s/was/had/
2021-12-20T12:29:40 < Xogium> dang
2021-12-20T12:54:37 < karlp> speaking of water heaters, one of the rooms in the summer house seems to oscillate: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/1ese5.png
2021-12-20T12:58:43 < ventYl> I expect, that heating system there is just put together without virtually any setup, then this happens
2021-12-20T12:59:28 < ventYl> here the whole house was oscillating, because longest pipe is like... 30m long and shortes is just like 4m long
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2021-12-20T13:12:03 < qyx> whoa 25°C in an icelandic bedroom?
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2021-12-20T13:12:34 < qyx> sorry 24°C
2021-12-20T13:33:53 < Steffanx> 24  ... damn. Way too hot. 
2021-12-20T13:34:45 < jpa-> PaulFertser: platformIO seems to have only command line client and no real webui to do things - and it is terrible IMO, i don't want to learn a new tool, i want to just click around
2021-12-20T13:36:47 < PaulFertser> jpa-: that assumes you want to use platformio at all :)
2021-12-20T13:37:30 < PaulFertser> Also, I can't see how clicking around differs from using a tool when you have a suitable manual handy.
2021-12-20T13:37:39 < jpa-> i don't, but some other people use it and i do not have much choice
2021-12-20T13:37:55 < qyx> you don't need manual for clicking around
2021-12-20T13:38:07 < jpa-> if everyone just goes "this isn't my favourite tool, i won't use it", nothing gets done
2021-12-20T13:38:35 < ventYl> exactly opposite. those tools will go out of market
2021-12-20T13:38:41 < ventYl> way sooner if people tolerate them
2021-12-20T13:39:03 < qyx> *if people don't
2021-12-20T13:39:09 < jpa-> ventYl: every tool out there is imperfect, do you expect they all should go "out of market"?
2021-12-20T13:39:33 < ventYl> jpa-: no, worse tool will receive more hatred and will hopefully go out of market first
2021-12-20T13:40:03 < jpa-> yeah, so i tolerate platformIO more than i tolerate mbed, and i tolerate mbed more than i tolerate IAR
2021-12-20T13:40:30 < ventYl> that fits
2021-12-20T13:40:37 < qyx> let's make 2022 the year of tools without java
2021-12-20T13:40:39 < PaulFertser> qyx: you often do, and you'll be spending time "navigating" GUI and it's unclear whether it's really faster than navigating a manual (which is also easily searchable).
2021-12-20T13:40:46 < jpa-> but if i just go "no, i won't tolerate imperfect software, i vote by not using it!" it just means i can't get anything done because there isn't any perfect tools out there
2021-12-20T13:41:23 < jpa-> PaulFertser: python's pip is going in other direction, they have removed "pip search" and just have the online search - which also sucks IMO :D
2021-12-20T13:41:58 < jpa-> and the supposed "easily searchable manual" generally is not, and usually it is also outdated
2021-12-20T13:42:28 < jpa-> it is easy to be idealistic if you can just imagine the existence of perfect alternative software and the perfect manual
2021-12-20T13:42:55 < PaulFertser> jpa-: idk, OpenOCD's manual seems to be good enough for the purposes we discuss, and it's searchable.
2021-12-20T13:43:16 < jpa-> but both of those are pretty much impossible to create, whereas moving html code out of alt="" into data-tooltip="" is simple to do
2021-12-20T13:43:31 < jpa-> PaulFertser: lol, openocd's manual has left me dumbfounded a lot of times
2021-12-20T13:44:04 < jpa-> e.g.  https://openocd.org/doc/html/Reset-Configuration.html    read that and try to figure out how to configure to use NRST pin and how to configure not to use it?
2021-12-20T13:44:06 < karlp> qyx: yes, it was much too hot. 
2021-12-20T13:44:51 < karlp> some misunderstandings about how the heating system was working and some weird fears about things freezing, and surprise surprise, a bigger than expecting electrical bill.  (the summerhouse is unfortunately not on geothermal hot water)
2021-12-20T13:46:17 < Xogium> it feels like platformio is just a big fat wrapper around mbed and zephyr and a whole bunch of rtos to me
2021-12-20T13:46:40 < jpa-> Xogium: to me platformio seems like a package manager for embedded code
2021-12-20T13:46:41 < qyx> jpa-: haha, same here
2021-12-20T13:46:42 < PaulFertser> jpa-: well, I can't do this test because I know the answer in advance. But all the contents there is legit, there really are many different and quirky targets, so enough background needs to be explained.
2021-12-20T13:46:48 < Xogium> I didn't understand how its supposed to help
2021-12-20T13:47:29 < jpa-> PaulFertser: so common case is hidden beneath all the quirks, and readable examples are nowhere to be seen
2021-12-20T13:47:50 < jpa-> PaulFertser: writing easy to read manuals is terribly difficult, and openocd's manual is definitely not easy to read
2021-12-20T13:47:55 < qyx> PaulFertser: but thats the part I skip because tl;dr
2021-12-20T13:48:10 < PaulFertser> jpa-: I agree
2021-12-20T13:48:57 < Xogium> so I kinda stick with mbed for learning rtos, because it seems to be the only onw that supports my stm32 dev kit with the full range of hardware
2021-12-20T13:49:47 < jpa-> Xogium: platformio is supposed to help with downloading & using libraries - a bit of similar to mbed or arduino, just reinvented yet again
2021-12-20T13:50:41 < Xogium> oh
2021-12-20T13:51:05 < Xogium> I guess it could… if you don't have to setup the whole rtos by yourself, but then again you have to setup platformio so
2021-12-20T13:51:49 < jpa-> yeah, i haven't begun using it in my own projects either because i know how to just git clone stuff manually and it makes me feel more in control
2021-12-20T13:52:42 < karlp> I used platformio myself for an esp8266 project, because it let me suck in the arduiono platform shit, adjusted for esp8266 and generated me more useful project files for netbeans rather than forcing me into arduino ide.
2021-12-20T13:52:45 < karlp> was relatively happy.
2021-12-20T13:53:04 < karlp> what I dislike most is how it tries to pretend everything's equally well supported, which is farrrrr from true.
2021-12-20T13:53:58 < karlp> lol, aisler only wants castellated holes on the "top/bottom". not the "sides"
2021-12-20T13:54:39 < Xogium> karlp: definitely far from true indeed
2021-12-20T13:56:17 < jpa-> karlp: heh, for a while i was trying to figure out how you would put a castellated hole on top side of pcb ;)
2021-12-20T13:59:01 < karlp> they're pushing out requirements on how they panel and frame things to the user.
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2021-12-20T13:59:19 < karlp> orders are submitted to nextpcb,but pending review, and I missed end of day china.
2021-12-20T13:59:33 < karlp> so pokign other places but I think I'm just wasting time now..
2021-12-20T13:59:53 < karlp> pcbway wants $290 for what nextpcb is charging $170 for. doh.
2021-12-20T14:00:21 < karlp> such NRE, much unit cost though.  $170 for 5, $178 for 50.
2021-12-20T14:00:29 < qyx> and whats the place set on fire recently
2021-12-20T14:00:34 < qyx> euro-something
2021-12-20T14:01:02 < qyx> eurocircuits
2021-12-20T14:03:09 < qyx> ok 140e for two boards, nope
2021-12-20T14:08:35 < karlp> huh, eurocircuits is actually really competitive on this design. last time I eval'd them they were way out
2021-12-20T14:09:49 < karlp> ah no, nvm, forgot to set board thickness, now they want 800€, nice one.
2021-12-20T14:10:04 < karlp> remind me not to check them again...
2021-12-20T14:10:12 < Xogium> hmm eurocircuits looks nice because they can outsource for parts unlike jlcpcb or similar
2021-12-20T14:10:27 < Xogium> if they don't have the parts you want in their own library you're fucked
2021-12-20T14:10:43 < Xogium> but yeah the price
2021-12-20T14:11:09 < jpa-> JLCPCB is pretty much the only PCBA company that does not source parts from elsewhere
2021-12-20T14:11:21 < jpa-> even seeed sources
2021-12-20T14:11:40 < jpa-> they just give discount for their standard parts
2021-12-20T14:12:06 < Xogium> hm really
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2021-12-20T17:41:56 < Xogium> hmm. The pain in my eye just vanished. I'm not sure what's up with that… I probably should still get it checked out whenever they open up after christmas and all of that
2021-12-20T17:43:14 < Steffanx> Maybe 
2021-12-20T17:43:29 < Xogium> might be best
2021-12-20T17:43:43 < Xogium> at worse they say nothing's wrong… I guess
2021-12-20T17:45:25 < Steffanx> They'll probably say: if it returns, come back
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2021-12-20T17:45:55 < Steffanx> At least, that's what they would do here
2021-12-20T17:52:29 < Xogium> hmm yeah probably
2021-12-20T17:54:46 < Xogium> but for all I know it could be glaucoma
2021-12-20T17:54:52 < fenugrec> maybe at least  get a neighbor or friend to check that there's nothing obviously wrong...
2021-12-20T17:55:07 < fenugrec> no pain doesn't mean everything is ok
2021-12-20T17:55:12 < Xogium> true
2021-12-20T17:56:22 < Xogium> they checked yesterday and saw nothing wrong with it, but that all could have changed today for all I know
2021-12-20T18:11:10 < Xogium> anyone here ever used the solokey security token ?
2021-12-20T18:11:28 < Xogium> having trouble with mine kinda and wondered if someone here had ideas
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2021-12-20T18:33:52 < Xogium> long story short sometimes the key stops reacting. When I press the button on the key, nothing happens. I need to unplug and replug it somehow
2021-12-20T18:34:07 < Xogium> could a freezing stm32 chip do that ?
2021-12-20T18:37:27 < qyx> idk I could put some stm32 outside and see
2021-12-20T18:39:23 < mawk> I tried already
2021-12-20T18:39:37 < mawk> freezing a stm32 to chase some temperature related bug
2021-12-20T18:39:43 < mawk> but it did nothing
2021-12-20T18:40:23 < mawk> in the end it was just moisture condensing inside the enclosure so instead of using a better gasket we fitted a swimming cap on the device
2021-12-20T18:40:27 < mawk> problem solved
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2021-12-20T18:50:52 < Xogium> hehe I meant freezing as in hanging
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2021-12-20T19:17:44 < qyx> where is catphish
2021-12-20T19:19:25 < Xogium> maybe swimming around
2021-12-20T19:19:27 < Xogium> :D
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2021-12-20T19:27:51 < ventYl> do you know any tool which allows visualisation of call graph? i recall, that there used to be something like that based on gcc instrumentation
2021-12-20T19:28:42 < BrainDamage> gprof2dot
2021-12-20T19:32:22 < ventYl> BrainDamage: thx. it's not what i've been looking for, but you got pushed me the right direction
2021-12-20T19:32:36 < ventYl> dot is not particularly useful for my use case
2021-12-20T19:36:06 < ventYl> I'll keep this here: https://github.com/elcritch/etrace
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2021-12-20T20:06:36 < ventYl> Xogium: I am tracing through muted espeak and it seems that it makes pretty far unaffected by my changes
2021-12-20T20:06:46 < ventYl> hope is that it fails due to some trivial bug
2021-12-20T20:09:12 < Xogium> ventYl: lets hope, yeah :/
2021-12-20T20:12:13 < qyx> will you make me Siri?
2021-12-20T20:14:35 < Xogium> hah
2021-12-20T20:14:37 < ventYl> Yurij
2021-12-20T20:16:17  * BrainDamage adds a wig and a ton of makeup to qyx
2021-12-20T20:18:01 < qyx> Yurij, make me a sandwich
2021-12-20T20:18:24 < qyx> I found a modem for captish https://in-tech-smartcharging.com/products/powerline-communication-modules/plc-stamp-micro-2
2021-12-20T20:18:26 < Xogium> sandwich are great
2021-12-20T20:19:28 < Xogium> though never got what's the big deal with burger and sandwich, they are same thing, just one is round ?
2021-12-20T20:19:33 < qyx> but I am a bit disappointed with its power consumption
2021-12-20T20:21:33 < jpa-> Xogium: one could call burger a special kind of sandwich
2021-12-20T20:22:24 < Xogium> they are so similar… makes sense that one is a subtype, I guess
2021-12-20T20:23:12 < qyx> is circle subset of a square?
2021-12-20T20:23:34 < ventYl> if you push hard enough...
2021-12-20T20:23:37 < jpa-> sandwiches have a quite wide variety of fillings, some don't taste like hamburger at all :)
2021-12-20T20:23:39 < qyx> if yes, is circle a square with infinite number of vertices?
2021-12-20T20:23:44 < qyx> or with no vertices at all
2021-12-20T20:24:04 < jpa-> qyx: circle and square are both subsets of convex 2d shapes without holes :)
2021-12-20T20:24:21 < Xogium> hmm, the ones I got so far did. I'm rather curious now :p
2021-12-20T20:24:33 < jpa-> a bagel, now that differs from sandwich in ways that no topologist can argue with!
2021-12-20T20:24:48 < qyx> ok so they are both extruded convex 2d shapes without holes with mince meat
2021-12-20T20:25:01 < Xogium> I like bagels
2021-12-20T20:25:38 < qyx> so
2021-12-20T20:25:47 < jpa-> my sandwiches usually have pepperoni or liverwurst in them
2021-12-20T20:25:55 < qyx> how could a smart grid (tm) modem draw 0.5 W
2021-12-20T20:26:12 < qyx> pepperoni pizza.. want I
2021-12-20T20:26:50 < BrainDamage> probably they assumed power was plenty available
2021-12-20T20:27:06 < BrainDamage> and maybe comm distances of 100m ...
2021-12-20T20:28:17 < Xogium> peperoni looks like churiso without the spicy bit
2021-12-20T20:29:59 < qyx> really all qualcomm and mediatek modem/router modules consume between 0.5-1 W
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2021-12-20T20:30:16 < qyx> it doesn't really depend on the distance or bitrate
2021-12-20T20:30:32 < qyx> 10 mbit, 300 m? 0.5 W
2021-12-20T20:30:41 < qyx> 200 mbit, 100 m? 0.5 W
2021-12-20T20:30:56 < qyx> 802.11n with some sort of mips and a bunch of RAM? 0.6 W
2021-12-20T20:31:14 < qyx> dual chain 802.11n with some MIPS and more ram? 0.6 W
2021-12-20T20:31:23 < qyx> add 4 ethernet ports? fuck, still 0.6 W
2021-12-20T20:32:14 < ventYl> Xogium: btw, I see audio event SET_SAMPLERATE, so there is hope one can set sample rate for waveform generator
2021-12-20T20:33:12 < Xogium> oh nice
2021-12-20T20:33:29 < Xogium> so it would just be the espeak-ng tool itself that doesn't expose this setting. Interesting
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2021-12-20T20:37:45 < ventYl> so, speech gets lost somewhere between say_thread() and sync_espeak_Synth() functions
2021-12-20T20:38:10 < Xogium> oh so it has a voice infection
2021-12-20T20:38:12 < Xogium> :D
2021-12-20T20:39:25 < Xogium> you use gdb or strace ?
2021-12-20T20:41:07 < ventYl> a combo of gdb and printfs. gdb is not very effective, if you don't know what you are searching for
2021-12-20T20:41:22 < Xogium> true, true
2021-12-20T20:41:43 < Xogium> I found tracing to be more effective than gdb a lot of the time
2021-12-20T20:42:12 < ventYl> fucking autohell
2021-12-20T20:42:55 < jpa-> one can also poor man's trace by typing "step" into gdb and then holding down enter to keep repeating it :)
2021-12-20T20:43:25 < Xogium> yeah, there is that
2021-12-20T20:50:49 < ventYl> is the design of libtool intentionally broken with gdb?
2021-12-20T20:51:24 < Xogium> no idea
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2021-12-20T21:12:36 < ventYl> Xogium: progress!
2021-12-20T21:12:43 < Xogium> sup ?
2021-12-20T21:13:03 < ventYl> initial assumption, that abort() is harmless with static translator was wrong
2021-12-20T21:14:32 < Xogium> oh really
2021-12-20T21:15:20 < ventYl> yeah, it happens during voice initialization
2021-12-20T21:15:29 < PaulFertser> ventYl: I think design of libtool is specifically made to assist with GDBing without installing.
2021-12-20T21:15:38 < ventYl> PaulFertser: then it fails with that
2021-12-20T21:16:01 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-20T21:16:28 < Xogium> but wait, if it happens during that, how come not using fixed dict makes it speak ?
2021-12-20T21:16:43 < Xogium> I also get the free(): invalid pointer
2021-12-20T21:16:45 < Xogium> in that case
2021-12-20T21:17:32 < ventYl> normal code path will initialize some translator
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2021-12-20T21:17:42 < ventYl> so there's something to delete
2021-12-20T21:17:53 < Xogium> hmm, right
2021-12-20T21:18:00 < ventYl> tainted code won't initialize any dynamic translator, so there's nothing to delete
2021-12-20T21:18:41 < Xogium> yeah, I get it now
2021-12-20T21:22:22 < Xogium> hmm might have to get the solo hacker to debug this
2021-12-20T21:23:09 < Xogium> there's obviously no debug interface on the solo key to avoid someone getting access to the data stored in there… so if the issue is really the mcu hanging for some reason then I don't think I could debug it
2021-12-20T21:27:04 < Xogium> could also be a firmware bug
2021-12-20T21:27:31 < Xogium> or it could be my linux that somehow never receives the button press for the key… I really don't know :p
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2021-12-20T21:31:32 < qyx> 19:18 < qyx> I found a modem for captish https://in-tech-smartcharging.com/products/powerline-communication-modules/plc-stamp-micro-2
2021-12-20T21:31:35 < qyx> catphish: ^
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2021-12-20T21:32:13 < catphish> qyx: ooo nice, thanks
2021-12-20T21:44:39 < ventYl> Xogium: haha, fixed. it was really stupid bug
2021-12-20T21:44:52 < Xogium> was it ? :D
2021-12-20T21:45:01 < Xogium> stupid bugs are the most annoying ones
2021-12-20T21:45:05 < ventYl> LoadDictionary has tiny side-effect
2021-12-20T21:45:15 < ventYl> yeah, annoying is the structure of espeak, which causes it
2021-12-20T21:45:32 < Xogium> hah, I'm so not surprised
2021-12-20T21:47:19 < ventYl> pull, build and enjoy
2021-12-20T21:47:39 < ventYl> now even if you use static build of translator, espeak should speak
2021-12-20T21:48:27 < Xogium> should I clean it entirely or just rebuild should be ok ?
2021-12-20T21:48:47 < ventYl> plain rebuild should be ok
2021-12-20T21:48:51 < ventYl> fix is like three lines of code
2021-12-20T21:49:24 < Mangy_Dog> if the f103 analog pin 3V or 3.3?
2021-12-20T21:49:27 < Xogium> damn that sure was not nice, the why it crashed
2021-12-20T21:49:32 < Mangy_Dog> IE what does it read up to
2021-12-20T21:49:48 < Mangy_Dog> if-is
2021-12-20T21:50:12 < ventYl> it reads up to avref, or how that rail is called
2021-12-20T21:51:16 < ventYl> Xogium: maybe, at this stage, you could start working on port to mbed and your f7
2021-12-20T21:51:39 < ventYl> that will provide some valuable input
2021-12-20T21:53:47 < Mangy_Dog> then in this case.... i think a 300k/1M voltage devider should be fine for reading battery voltage :D
2021-12-20T21:55:03 < ventYl> well, go and check the datasheet on how high voltage would pin in ADC mode tolerate, some of pins are 5V tolerant, but IDK if they work like that in ADC mode, i.e. if you can provide AVref >= VCC
2021-12-20T21:55:59 < ventYl> I would expect you can't do that. then the sole fact that pin won't vaporize if you put > Vcc there is of no use as ADC will be saturated
2021-12-20T21:57:31 < qyx> ADC inputs have range AVSS-AVDD
2021-12-20T21:57:47 < Mangy_Dog> which is 3.3
2021-12-20T21:57:48 < Mangy_Dog> sooo
2021-12-20T21:57:53 < qyx> 300k/1M may be fine but you won't read correct values
2021-12-20T21:57:53 < Mangy_Dog> yeah 3.3 :)
2021-12-20T21:58:05 < Mangy_Dog> oh qyx?
2021-12-20T21:58:15 < Xogium> ventYl: yeah I'll try working on that
2021-12-20T21:58:31 < qyx> you either need to set an extraordinary long sampling time or add a small cap parallel to the bottom leg of the divider
2021-12-20T21:58:42 < qyx> for battery measurement, 100n will do
2021-12-20T21:58:51 < ventYl> Xogium: if you can put just basic environment together, i can cooperate later
2021-12-20T21:59:25 < Mangy_Dog> is 300k too high for the analog pin to sample off?
2021-12-20T21:59:30 < catphish> what on earth does a 2 lead common mode choke do?
2021-12-20T21:59:41 < catphish> surely you can't have common mode on a single conductor?
2021-12-20T21:59:56 < Xogium> ventYl: yeah hmm probably would only use the lib, not the espeak-ng binary. I think making a cdc_acm device so you can type sentences and have espeak talk them in realtime as a test could be a good demo app
2021-12-20T22:00:29 < ventYl> Xogium: that's ok, all of my changes reside inside the library anyway. I use espeak itself just for convenience
2021-12-20T22:01:54 < qyx> Mangy_Dog: section 4.4 of https://www.st.com/resource/en/application_note/cd00211314-how-to-get-the-best-adc-accuracy-in-stm32-microcontrollers-stmicroelectronics.pdf
2021-12-20T22:03:23 < Mangy_Dog> ahh
2021-12-20T22:03:58 < Mangy_Dog> so placing a 100n cap on the sample line keeps the line charged
2021-12-20T22:04:03 < Xogium> yeah, hmm
2021-12-20T22:04:09 < Mangy_Dog> in the middle of the devider
2021-12-20T22:04:12 < Xogium> should be able to come up with something
2021-12-20T22:04:24 < qyx> yes, from the middle to GND
2021-12-20T22:04:45 < Mangy_Dog> k
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2021-12-20T22:08:50 < kakium69> catphish: it's just choke
2021-12-20T22:08:55 < kakium69> not common mode
2021-12-20T22:10:19 < kakium69> just single-ended signal
2021-12-20T22:11:01 < ventYl> Xogium: basically, just some environment, which builds libespeak-ng for whatever you'll use, will be fine for me
2021-12-20T22:11:15 < ventYl> it will allow me to see how much memory espeak consumes in various configurations
2021-12-20T22:12:25 < Xogium> hmm you mean with some kind of emulation ?
2021-12-20T22:13:38 < ventYl> hm, no, just create an environment, you'd use to build for your HW and kind-of integrate libespeak into it. then put that into git repository, so I can pick it up. this way I'll know how to build for your board
2021-12-20T22:13:49 < ventYl> as I don't have any F7 here, nor anything remotely as powerful
2021-12-20T22:14:02 < Xogium> oh
2021-12-20T22:14:09 < Xogium> right
2021-12-20T22:14:34 < qyx> you can test using H7
2021-12-20T22:14:36 < Xogium> also I rebuilt but I still get en_dict file in espeak-ng-data
2021-12-20T22:15:05 < Xogium> but I see you did uncomment the define for fixed_dict, and commented the undef..?
2021-12-20T22:15:27 < ventYl> qyx: I can, but that board doesn't have any sane output for audio
2021-12-20T22:15:31 < ventYl> nor input for text
2021-12-20T22:15:46 < ventYl> Xogium: yeah, I flipped that, so static dictionary is used
2021-12-20T22:16:18 < Xogium> somehow I thought it wasn't still showing a separate en_dict… weird. I must have imagined that
2021-12-20T22:16:50 < qyx> ventYl: semihost both
2021-12-20T22:17:01 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-20T22:17:09 < ventYl> qyx: that's slow AF
2021-12-20T22:17:48 < qyx> speak slowly
2021-12-20T22:18:01 < Xogium> does it still require the content espeak-data ? Probably so it can pick a voice and the phontab, which I guess is the phoneme table, intonation, etc…
2021-12-20T22:18:39 < ventYl> Xogium: it may still require some of the data, but not dictionaries
2021-12-20T22:18:54 < Xogium> that's very cool
2021-12-20T22:18:57 < ventYl> I didn't do anything about voice loading yet
2021-12-20T22:19:56 < Xogium> hmm yeah this will be a bit weird. I think I'll have to format the qspi flash with something like littlefs v2
2021-12-20T22:20:24 < Xogium> so I can give the lib the impression the data is under a path that looks like linux to it like /fs/espeak-ng-data
2021-12-20T22:20:28 < ventYl> in the finale no files will be needed, so I wouldn't bother with that
2021-12-20T22:20:42 < ventYl> like, I'll compile the code locally, but won't run it on any embedded HW
2021-12-20T22:20:56 < Xogium> right
2021-12-20T22:21:30 < Xogium> so lets run strip on the lib, just for the fun of it
2021-12-20T22:22:03 < Xogium> nice, 700 kb lib
2021-12-20T22:22:13 < Xogium> inestad of a couple mb
2021-12-20T22:22:16 < Xogium> er instead
2021-12-20T22:22:43 < ventYl> that's with included dictionary!
2021-12-20T22:22:46 < Xogium> yep
2021-12-20T22:23:02 < Xogium> should leave plenty of space for other code ;)
2021-12-20T22:23:34 < ventYl> I'll go and check how voice loading works to serialize it too
2021-12-20T22:23:38 < Xogium> looks like you did it, espeak-ng in uder 1 mb size
2021-12-20T22:23:44 < catphish> kakium69: thanks, i thought so, just poor description
2021-12-20T22:23:59 < Xogium> er, I mean, under 1 mb
2021-12-20T22:24:24 < Xogium> that's damn impressive, if I do say so myself
2021-12-20T22:24:41 < Xogium> ok, it requires a powerhouse mcu, but still
2021-12-20T22:25:46 < ventYl> well, we don't know yet how much powerful MCU it requires
2021-12-20T22:25:55 < Xogium> it could probably run on the higher-end of the f4 too, not sure
2021-12-20T22:26:01 < Xogium> yeah
2021-12-20T22:26:10 < Xogium> but I mean, size requirement and such
2021-12-20T22:26:10 < ventYl> phoneme translation phase is rather humble
2021-12-20T22:26:53 < ventYl> well, it can probably be made even smaller, default build includes mbrola
2021-12-20T22:27:38 < Xogium> yeah the phondata file is 537 kb though, wonder what's in there
2021-12-20T22:27:50 < Xogium> ah yeah let me try disabling mbrola
2021-12-20T22:29:43 < ventYl> that's just another file loaded into memory
2021-12-20T22:30:59 < Xogium> disabled both mbrola and pcaudiolib just because
2021-12-20T22:31:38 < Xogium> ooh 20 kb smaller lib. Not bad :D
2021-12-20T22:32:24 < ventYl> mine has 482kB text, 210kB data and 150kB bss
2021-12-20T22:33:03 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-20T22:33:16 < ventYl> large part of data actually belongs to text, I have just omitted one `const`
2021-12-20T22:33:18 < Xogium> text will be stored on flash, but rest should be loaded into ram ?
2021-12-20T22:33:33 < ventYl> because that generates shitload of warnings
2021-12-20T22:34:45 < Xogium> yeah warnings are baaad
2021-12-20T22:35:34 < Xogium> how do you check the size of binary section again ? I forget
2021-12-20T22:35:45 < ventYl> size <name of elf or so>
2021-12-20T22:36:22 < Xogium> damn that easy
2021-12-20T22:38:49 < Xogium> oh boy
2021-12-20T22:39:04 < Xogium> ftr, it doesn't exactly like building from scratch
2021-12-20T22:39:28 < Xogium> like if you checkout the repo, switch to mcu build branch, then autogen/configure/make
2021-12-20T22:39:36 < Xogium> the initial build went like that
2021-12-20T22:39:38 < Xogium> Compiling: 'en_rules' 6744 rules, 103 groups (0)
2021-12-20T22:39:38 < Xogium> LoadDictionary()
2021-12-20T22:39:39 < Xogium> make[1]: *** [Makefile:3094: espeak-ng-data/en_dict] Erreur de segmentation (core dump créé)
2021-12-20T22:39:52 < Xogium> might be somewhat readable but basically segfault
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2021-12-20T22:43:49 < ventYl> yeah, you need to first build with the macro undefined in dictionary.c to actually generate static dictionary
2021-12-20T22:44:05 < ventYl> hm, that should automatically undef, if static dictionary is not available
2021-12-20T22:44:11 < ventYl> so that segfault is kind-of expected
2021-12-20T22:44:35 < ventYl> you should still get one additional dict_dump.h file after that step
2021-12-20T22:49:44 < Xogium> I guess to be pretty it could tell you about macro defined but no initial build done or something
2021-12-20T22:49:50 < Xogium> that could avoid a segfault
2021-12-20T22:49:51 < Xogium> maybe
2021-12-20T22:50:30 < ventYl> segfault is due to an attempt to free static data
2021-12-20T22:50:51 < Xogium> ah
2021-12-20T22:51:16 < Xogium> I thought it would just abort in that case too… I guess not
2021-12-20T22:51:29 < ventYl> and at this stage the thing is nowhere near being pretty. it is just hacked together
2021-12-20T22:51:37 < Xogium> hehe yeah, I get that
2021-12-20T22:52:35 < ventYl> well, phondata will require additional 650kB to be statically injected into binary
2021-12-20T22:53:20 < ventYl> and it also seems, that this stuff is somehow precompiled for certain sampling rate. that's probably reason, why output sampling rate is not configurable
2021-12-20T22:53:39 < Xogium> oh
2021-12-20T22:53:51 < Xogium> weird that they have samplerate event then…
2021-12-20T22:53:55 < Xogium> but okay
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2021-12-20T22:55:07 < Xogium> not sure if linking phondata would work, hmm
2021-12-20T22:55:07 < ventYl> some of them seem to refer to external waveform files or something like that
2021-12-20T22:55:31 < ventYl> well, it will. i just have to serialize it the same way as dictionary data
2021-12-20T22:55:40 < Xogium> but I'd hope that if it is smart, it wouldn't load the *entire* phondata file into memory
2021-12-20T22:55:54 < Xogium> but who knows
2021-12-20T22:57:24 < Xogium> still that would mean 1.3 mb of flash used, currently. It could still fit on 2 mb
2021-12-20T22:58:57 < Xogium> okay, I don't understand what's going on… I checked out the repo, switched to mcu branch, modified dictionary.c to comment the #define and uncomment the #undef, ran autogen, configure, and make… segfaults as if I hadn't commented the define
2021-12-20T23:04:44 < Xogium> https://paste.xogium.me/d0.log
2021-12-20T23:05:00 < Xogium> if you want to see the full build, in case it is useful
2021-12-20T23:05:29 < Xogium> will go see if I can catch some z's
2021-12-20T23:05:35 < Xogium> :) night all
2021-12-20T23:06:12 < Xogium> and a huge thanks to ventYl for his work once again ;)
2021-12-20T23:15:07 < ventYl> night
2021-12-20T23:36:43 < kakium69> are you guise already doing the voice synthesis?
2021-12-20T23:42:23 < ventYl> not quite yet
2021-12-20T23:42:35 < ventYl> but we are on track. unless we run out of flash
2021-12-20T23:43:07 < kakium69> suddenly wrist watch with linux
2021-12-20T23:43:53 < kakium69> I try to make it sound like it was something extraordinary
2021-12-20T23:44:08 < kakium69> but it have not been for years
2021-12-20T23:48:23 < ventYl> do you have one?
2021-12-20T23:48:52 < ventYl> i don't have any overview on what MCUs are in wristwatches
2021-12-20T23:49:07 < ventYl> does any contain anything w/ cortex-a?
2021-12-20T23:50:19 < PaulFertser> Fucking samsung gear watches run a web browser to show you time and date.
2021-12-20T23:50:25 < steve__> i know the pinetime watch has a nrf micro, no linux on that tho
2021-12-20T23:50:47 < ventYl> i have pinetime on my wrist RN
2021-12-20T23:50:55 < ventYl> i know that HW pretty well
2021-12-20T23:51:15 < steve__> you like it?  I have a pinephone but its still in the box
2021-12-20T23:52:03 < ventYl> depends. i have no real use case for smartwatch. i have obtained them as devkit, because you can't really get nrf devkit w/ accel sensor and display for $25
2021-12-20T23:52:39 < steve__> haha, portable dev kit, now that's a product
2021-12-20T23:52:42 < kakium69> bin laden casio best wrist watch
2021-12-20T23:52:56 < kakium69> it has it all
2021-12-20T23:53:01 < ventYl> i am a bit disappointed by SW implementation of BLE at smartphone side
2021-12-20T23:53:12 < PaulFertser> https://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_gear_s2-7678.php Dual-core 1.0 GHz Cortex-A7
2021-12-20T23:53:40 < kakium69> 512MB or ram in watch
2021-12-20T23:53:44 < kakium69> *of
2021-12-20T23:54:53 < steve__> the python BLE libs are good I thought, just basic usage
2021-12-20T23:55:56 < ventYl> it's more about the fact you have to provide complete host side support in your app. OS won't support anything
2021-12-20T23:56:01 < ventYl> and you have to bridge everything
2021-12-20T23:56:09 < steve__> ios caching of characteristics is annoying
2021-12-20T23:56:29 < steve__> ? what kind of smartphone has no BLE in the OS?
2021-12-20T23:56:29 < xnand> ?<factoid> to query, ?<factoid>=value to set, ?<factoid>-forget to unset
2021-12-20T23:57:04 < ventYl> pretty much all of them. with all of them you need some kind of companion app, which will provide characteristic
2021-12-20T23:58:36 < steve__> oh, yeah a generic app to use with all BLE devices wouldnt' even make sense from a user perspective.  unless it's an app specfiically for testing hah.  of course you need host support at the application level
2021-12-20T23:59:57 < ventYl> well, if characteristics would be somehow standardized, then such app would make perfect sense
--- Day changed Tue Dec 21 2021
2021-12-21T00:00:14 < ventYl> like I don't need 25 different apps supporting 25 different smartwatches which essentially do the same
2021-12-21T00:02:12 < steve__> there is something like that, there is discovery of characteristics, don't know how it works but if the set of characteristics fits some "pattern" then the host can assume stuff about the device's characteristics
2021-12-21T00:03:08 < steve__> cue the xkcd about standards
2021-12-21T00:03:45 < ventYl> I would have a use case for pinetime if there was simple way of exporting current location from my phone without installing any additional application into it
2021-12-21T00:04:03 < ventYl> nothing fancy, just lat/lon, maybe elevation and current heading
2021-12-21T00:06:46 < steve__> oh that's the other way around.  you want to display that on the watch?  yeah the eg. GPS apps should give advanced users the ability to select characteristic on a device, so eg. the GPS app can write to them, then you handle the rest on the watch firmware
2021-12-21T00:07:30 < ventYl> I just need to know that information. watch would handle the rest on it's own
2021-12-21T00:07:50 < ventYl> as putting something into iphone is more hurdle for me than putting something into pinetime
2021-12-21T00:09:32 < steve__> pinephone could do it ;)
2021-12-21T00:10:06 < ventYl> well, for me the small form factor is characteristic #1
2021-12-21T00:10:18 < ventYl> i'd still be using dumbphones if there were any
2021-12-21T00:10:34 < steve__> i mean ditch the iphone and go pinephone+pinetime
2021-12-21T00:11:53 < kakium69> nokia 3310
2021-12-21T00:12:02 < kakium69> you can get one from ebay
2021-12-21T00:13:49 < ventYl> i have nokia 3210 here
2021-12-21T00:13:54 < ventYl> no battery no charger
2021-12-21T00:14:06 < ventYl> and two ericssons T39
2021-12-21T00:14:18 < ventYl> both fully functional, yet only one battery, which sometimes goes crazy
2021-12-21T00:20:56 < kakium69> get new battery from ebay
2021-12-21T00:27:18 < ventYl> i'd rather be using that ericsson than nokia
2021-12-21T00:27:23 < ventYl> it's like 1/3 of nokia size
2021-12-21T00:28:02 < ventYl> clang apparently choked on shitload of data I fed him with
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2021-12-21T05:09:28 < catphish> lulz https://i.imgur.com/ZHc96Gy.png
2021-12-21T05:12:16 < catphish> and on that note, i see JLC have restocked the parts i need to build it properly instead, thank god
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2021-12-21T10:32:42 < Steffanx> catphish:  is that the board as before done differently?
2021-12-21T10:33:19 < Steffanx> Without wifi
2021-12-21T10:33:58 < jadew> I just lost all my money in my trading account
2021-12-21T10:34:44 < jadew> made two mistakes: took a trade in the wrong direction (I was meaning to take it in the other direction) and the position was 20 times higher than I wanted it to be
2021-12-21T10:34:56 < jadew> half an hour later, 5k got wiped out
2021-12-21T10:35:39 < jadew> and with this, I'm done with trading
2021-12-21T10:35:55 < ventYl> how long did you trade?
2021-12-21T10:36:05 < jadew> ~one year
2021-12-21T10:36:15 < ventYl> with no prior experience?
2021-12-21T10:36:19 < jadew> was actually having some good success lately
2021-12-21T10:36:20 < jadew> yeah
2021-12-21T10:36:28 < jadew> I was up 2k for the past month
2021-12-21T10:36:39 < jadew> managed to make consistent gains
2021-12-21T10:36:42 < ventYl> and you went straight to short trading?
2021-12-21T10:37:01 < jadew> I didn't mean to take a short position...
2021-12-21T10:37:17 < jadew> but by the time I realized it was already too late
2021-12-21T10:37:31 < jadew> if I didn't make that mistake, I would have been 5k up
2021-12-21T10:37:45 < jadew> if I didn't make both mistakes, I would have been only ~200 up, which is what my intention was
2021-12-21T10:38:10 < ventYl> i've been investigating this like ~1 year ago
2021-12-21T10:38:19 < ventYl> realized that this is activity too boring for me
2021-12-21T10:39:00 < jadew> man... I can't believe I lost my account to a fucking mistake
2021-12-21T10:39:31 < jadew> I thought it would be due to bad judgment or something
2021-12-21T10:39:50 < jadew> but in this case I just didn't pay attention to what I was doing
2021-12-21T10:41:03 < ventYl> and this kind of mistakes, too
2021-12-21T10:41:20 < ventYl> i've lost some amount of "money" on stupid mistakes too
2021-12-21T10:41:29 < ventYl> since then I simply don't touch it
2021-12-21T10:42:30 < jadew> I managed to be profitable on almost every trade for the past 2 months, which is why this is so painful now
2021-12-21T10:42:38 < jadew> cuz I don't know if I want to put more money into that account
2021-12-21T10:44:51 < ventYl> that's simple equation
2021-12-21T11:06:45 < nerozero> Hi there, have an issue with STM32F4 + HAL + ADC-DMA, DMA IRQ not fireing at all 
2021-12-21T11:06:47 < Steffanx> Lol jadew. Should have invested in buttcoin cryptoscam 
2021-12-21T11:07:16 < nerozero> Here is the Cube generated ADC config: https://bsd.to/vrxx
2021-12-21T11:07:21 < nerozero> Any suggestions ? 
2021-12-21T11:07:56 < nerozero> After calling HAL_ADC_Start_DMA, DMA stays in locked state forever ... 
2021-12-21T11:08:49 < jadew> Steffanx, you're right
2021-12-21T11:16:47 < Steffanx> nerozero: do you start sampling? Does it generate the interrupt handler code?  Does it end up in the irq handler? (I don't mean the callback, but the actual irq handler)
2021-12-21T11:17:54 < nerozero> No, not falling into dma irq-s
2021-12-21T11:19:16 < nerozero> Steffanx, Thanks for reply btw
2021-12-21T11:35:22 < Steffanx> Are you sure the ADC runs and the dma interrupt gets enabled?
2021-12-21T11:35:51 < nerozero> have you clicked on the adc code listing ? 
2021-12-21T11:35:52 < Steffanx> Just stating the obvious, but it's all I cannot see in the code snippet
2021-12-21T11:36:25 < nerozero> .... same ... trying to debug the registers data .... + reading datasheets ... 
2021-12-21T11:36:50 < nerozero> will post here if found the reason why ... 
2021-12-21T11:37:12 < Steffanx> You dont call adc_start in your code. Nor do I see the dma interrupt being enabled.
2021-12-21T11:37:28 < Steffanx> Just the adc interrupt
2021-12-21T11:37:31 < nerozero> in DMA it does't need to be called 
2021-12-21T11:37:46 < nerozero> this is required only in direct sampling ... 
2021-12-21T11:38:01 < nerozero> according to HAL datasheets ... 
2021-12-21T11:38:20 < Steffanx> Oh you might be right
2021-12-21T11:39:20 < nerozero> what am i trying to achieve is - fire adc to dma, receive data, sleep for some period, wake and do the same ... 
2021-12-21T11:39:37 < Steffanx> I hardly use HAL. 
2021-12-21T11:39:55 < nerozero> I'm h8 it too, but it is requirement now :( 
2021-12-21T11:40:35 < nerozero> Steffanx, Thank you for helping !
2021-12-21T11:43:21 < Steffanx> Does your dma start do anything btw? Can you see the samples being updated? 
2021-12-21T12:16:38 < nerozero> Steffanx, nope .... 
2021-12-21T12:36:40 < catphish> Steffanx: sort of, but not quite the same, been thinking about different options and combinations of parts, however it looks like JLC have some useful stock in, so i can actually build the board i want, with everything, and surface mount
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2021-12-21T12:54:32 < Xogium> morning
2021-12-21T13:01:59 < Steffanx> Gooday sir
2021-12-21T13:02:30 < Xogium> what,s up ?
2021-12-21T13:02:47 < Xogium> erk I swear this keyboard is annoying me on purpose
2021-12-21T13:02:50 < Steffanx> Comment ça va?
2021-12-21T13:02:59 < Xogium> not registering when I press shift with , to make ' instead
2021-12-21T13:03:51 < Steffanx> I have a ' key :)
2021-12-21T13:04:07 < Xogium> not bad… just sleep pattern shifting around, so will end up probably always showing an hour later each day until I circle around the clock :p
2021-12-21T13:04:28 < Steffanx> Need a louder alarm?
2021-12-21T13:05:16 < Xogium> well, actually… It's non-24 sleepwake disorder, and its better I don't try to force my sleep schedule in my experience
2021-12-21T13:06:55 < Xogium> trying to force my body in a 24-hours sleepwake schedule often just results in feeling permanent jet lag effects
2021-12-21T13:07:07 < Xogium> or well as permanent as long as I try this
2021-12-21T13:08:22 < Xogium> and I even tried melatonin. The damn stuff worked. For that, it did, no problem. Too freaking well, I'd say. I took the minimum dose and was sent under for 15 hours straight
2021-12-21T13:08:42 < Xogium> when I woke up, I was even more exhausted than before I took the damn thing
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2021-12-21T13:40:31 < Xogium> ventYl: did you have time to examine the log and any idea why it would react like this even when the undef is uncommented and the define is the one that is commented ?
2021-12-21T13:41:24 < Xogium> I didn't run any autotools or configure or etc before, I litterally just git clone, checkout the mcu branch, modified the file, and only then I ran the autogen stuff
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2021-12-21T14:01:50 < ventYl> Xogium: and what exactly is the issue? does it generate binary with static translator, od it doesn't?
2021-12-21T14:02:14 < Xogium> ventYl: it uh… tries to ? I'm not sure. It segfaults though, so I'm assuming yes
2021-12-21T14:02:57 < ventYl> if you have additional dict_dump.h file, then it succeeded
2021-12-21T14:06:42 < Xogium> yeah, but the build didn't do that the first time… I mean, earlier when I first checked it out, the build went all good
2021-12-21T14:06:55 < Xogium> when the macro was still undef
2021-12-21T14:07:06 < Xogium> but now with it undef, the build also segfaults
2021-12-21T14:07:13 < Xogium> so it confused me
2021-12-21T14:10:33 < Xogium> yeah I have the dict_dump.h now
2021-12-21T14:11:24 < Xogium> just strange to see the initial build also failing. I expected the static one to given the pointer and such, but not the first
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2021-12-21T14:12:57 < ventYl> Xogium: the code to override pointers exists both in static and non-static build. that may be the reason
2021-12-21T14:14:19 < Xogium> oh
2021-12-21T14:14:43 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-21T14:15:48 < ventYl> it gets pretty fat after phon* files are inlined into text
2021-12-21T14:15:56 < Xogium> it also spews a bunch of errors and warnings about the dict_dump.h file
2021-12-21T14:16:06 < Xogium> oh yeah ?
2021-12-21T14:16:41 < ventYl> it probably complains, that there are functions unused after dict_dump.h is used. that's because it bypasses standard dict loading logic, so a bunch of functions gets unused
2021-12-21T14:16:54 < Xogium> well, I guess these will have to stay into ram…
2021-12-21T14:16:56 < ventYl> and there's one or two warnings about dict_dump itself
2021-12-21T14:17:04 < ventYl> nope, they are already in flash
2021-12-21T14:18:36 < Xogium> hmm so then wouldn't it take the same amount if stick in the lib vs on flash ?
2021-12-21T14:19:52 < Xogium> just wonder how I'd make espeak load data straight from flash, without having to pass through an espeak-ng-data directory and subdir for voices and etc. Probably would need to be patched to do that
2021-12-21T14:20:34 < ventYl> yeah I am alrady working on it. the approach is pretty much the same as with the dictionary. yet the amount of data is large
2021-12-21T14:20:55 < Xogium> yeah :/
2021-12-21T14:20:57 < ventYl> so i am not going to spend any time on clean up until I know that I have everything "in flash" and there's chance it will fit into flash
2021-12-21T14:21:24 < ventYl> like, currently the .text of libespeak with phon* inlined is like 1.2MB
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2021-12-21T14:22:58 < Xogium> yeah that is getting rather big…
2021-12-21T14:23:18 < Xogium> I'm starting to wonder if this will even be doable
2021-12-21T14:27:56 < Xogium> it might need external flash
2021-12-21T14:30:13 < ventYl> yeah, that's why I want to stuff everything into text first to see if it is even doable
2021-12-21T14:30:29 < ventYl> it may turn out that espeak needs additional wave files to be loaded
2021-12-21T14:30:35 < ventYl> and that would be like... no way
2021-12-21T14:30:56 < Xogium> honestly ? I don't think it is… Phon* stuff is big, but then you get litterally 700 kb of voices
2021-12-21T14:31:06 < Xogium> that excludes lang and intonation and whatever else
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2021-12-21T14:35:07 < ventYl> well, let's see
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2021-12-21T14:35:27 < ventYl> at least I can improve my skills a bit
2021-12-21T14:35:43 < ventYl> and I doubt that espeak needs all that shit in all cases
2021-12-21T14:36:15 < Xogium> well the voices are variants, mostly… I think
2021-12-21T14:37:26 < ventYl> we'll see
2021-12-21T14:37:52 < Xogium> well ok, we can avoid the entire voices/mb dir
2021-12-21T14:38:07 < Xogium> that is 364 kb less, but still 408 kb for the !v dir
2021-12-21T14:38:35 < Xogium> they are all variants with different pitch, different inflection, things like that
2021-12-21T14:39:21 < Xogium> but they are text files… I kind of wonder if putting them as binary blob wouldn't help reduce the size
2021-12-21T14:41:36 < Xogium> still… this phon* stuff is meh
2021-12-21T14:42:13 < ventYl> i have to go through the process of loading these. I hope that they become a lot smaller once loaded into espeak as they are text files
2021-12-21T14:42:18 < ventYl> for most of part
2021-12-21T14:42:40 < ventYl> and still, we can simply select one voice and use only stuff belonging to it
2021-12-21T14:45:18 < Xogium> yeah, and make it possible to use variants and etc if you have external flash available to store them
2021-12-21T14:45:41 < Xogium> or something
2021-12-21T14:50:31 < Xogium> I think the biggest stuff is the phon*
2021-12-21T14:50:48 < Xogium> and lang
2021-12-21T14:51:01 < Xogium> as in the lang directory
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2021-12-21T17:46:03 < kakium69> hello ircium
2021-12-21T17:46:20 < Xogium> is that a metal
2021-12-21T17:46:31 < kakium69> yes
2021-12-21T17:46:39 < Xogium> radioactive ?
2021-12-21T17:46:44 < kakium69> yes
2021-12-21T17:47:13 < Xogium> how many siverts per hour ?
2021-12-21T17:47:14 < Xogium> :D
2021-12-21T17:48:27 < kakium69> 69
2021-12-21T17:48:47 < Xogium> oof
2021-12-21T17:52:15 < Xogium> someone once told me that my nick sounds like a medication
2021-12-21T17:58:38 < kakium69> it sounds like X-server project name
2021-12-21T17:58:49 < Xogium> hah too
2021-12-21T17:59:01 < Xogium> xorgium haha
2021-12-21T17:59:45 < kakium69> wait
2021-12-21T17:59:57 < kakium69> we both have -ium suffix
2021-12-21T18:00:07 < Xogium> indeed
2021-12-21T18:20:21 < mawk> xogium 2000 mg, une gélule après chaque repas et votre diarrhée s'en va
2021-12-21T18:20:33 < Xogium> rofl
2021-12-21T18:21:58 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-21T18:22:30 < Xogium> apparently my prank geiger counter on phone says I'm about 4.2 siverts per hour
2021-12-21T18:23:01 < Xogium> sounds dangerous
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2021-12-21T18:39:20 < Xogium> erk
2021-12-21T18:39:38 < Xogium> this kind of situation is exactly why I wish to make espeak into a hardware synth
2021-12-21T18:40:02 < Xogium> one second I was typing here just fine, the next second my software tts crashed
2021-12-21T18:40:54 < Xogium> I have no freaking idea what happened, why it crashed, or how to bring it back, I restarted xorg twice, killed all the processes I saw that could have stalle cache entries or whatever
2021-12-21T18:41:31 < Xogium> its just not calling speech-dispatcher for whatever the fuck reason
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2021-12-21T19:00:57 < kakium69> Xogium: do you have device you can point at things and it reads stuff?
2021-12-21T19:01:03 < kakium69> smartphone?
2021-12-21T19:07:47 < Xogium> kakium69: I do but no monitor
2021-12-21T19:08:01 < kakium69> interesting
2021-12-21T19:08:04 < Xogium> also OCR isn't really great because I tend to not point it very good
2021-12-21T19:08:12 < kakium69> you have just a box
2021-12-21T19:08:16 < Xogium> yeah
2021-12-21T19:08:17 < kakium69> and keyboard
2021-12-21T19:08:36 < kakium69> you have some sort of braille display?
2021-12-21T19:08:43 < kakium69> mechanical display thing
2021-12-21T19:09:01 < Xogium> yeah
2021-12-21T19:09:06 < kakium69> cool
2021-12-21T19:09:11 < Xogium> what saved my ass :p
2021-12-21T19:11:55 < Xogium> but yeah hardware synth would be so much better… If audio disappears on the linux box, it doesn't mean your tts goes down with it
2021-12-21T19:13:29 < kakium69> software is cheap
2021-12-21T19:13:35 < kakium69> hardware is expensive
2021-12-21T19:13:38 < Xogium> yeah…
2021-12-21T19:13:56 < Xogium> I still want to try and make this synth
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2021-12-21T19:14:26 < Xogium> turn espeak into a crash-resistant mcu thing
2021-12-21T19:14:58 < kakium69> fail safu
2021-12-21T19:17:43 < Xogium> yeah
2021-12-21T19:17:46 < Xogium> something like that
2021-12-21T19:18:11 < Xogium> if it happens to crash, then it could restart or something
2021-12-21T19:21:44 < Steffanx> Just add a big ass reset button 
2021-12-21T19:22:12 < Xogium> hehe
2021-12-21T19:22:59 < kakium69> yes
2021-12-21T19:23:20 < kakium69> also just simple serial port input
2021-12-21T19:23:39 < kakium69> no need to do handshakes just push data one way
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2021-12-21T19:25:05 < Xogium> well, its 2-ways
2021-12-21T19:25:28 < Xogium> hardware synth doesn't mean that it doesn't need a screen reader, after all
2021-12-21T19:27:31 < Xogium> so chip has to communicate back to screen reader that it read ok, probably
2021-12-21T19:28:15 < catphish> question of the day: i have a digital input signal that is either 0v or is +3v to +12v, what's the best way to connect this to a 3.3v GPIO input? the obvious options seem to be a mosfet with a 20v tolerant gate, to pull down the GPIO pin, or some kind of diode clamping
2021-12-21T19:30:38 < kakium69> you could just clamp it with external diode
2021-12-21T19:30:42 < kakium69> or internal diode
2021-12-21T19:31:02 < kakium69> if you really want to save in number of parts
2021-12-21T19:31:43 < catphish> is it actually safe / sane to just use a large resistor and rely on the internal clamping diode if it don't exceed its current rating?
2021-12-21T19:31:44 < kakium69> but is +3v concidered minimum voltage for high level?
2021-12-21T19:32:19 < catphish> well, in reality i'm not expecting it to be much below 6v, but yes
2021-12-21T19:32:44 < GenTooMan> catphish you MUST limit the current significantly.
2021-12-21T19:33:10 < kakium69> with that solution you get hi level all way from whatever it is hi-state in mcu
2021-12-21T19:33:14 < catphish> kakium69: it's this thing: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/J1772_signaling_circuit.svg/1920px-J1772_signaling_circuit.svg.png - specifically the detector on D1
2021-12-21T19:33:22 < kakium69> unless you do some resistor divider thing
2021-12-21T19:35:04 < catphish> in theory, R2 and R3 should pull D1 down to either 9v or 6v, but i realistically want the circuit to be 15v tolerant, and detect down to about 3v
2021-12-21T19:36:16 < catphish> i think a 2N7002 is going to be the safest option here
2021-12-21T19:36:57 < kakium69> you know transistors have leak currents
2021-12-21T19:37:55 < kakium69> you need to calculate circuit around it so that gate threshold and leak currents are insignificant for application
2021-12-21T19:38:05 < BrainDamage> if you want to be super safe use an optocoupler
2021-12-21T19:38:31 < BrainDamage> not cheap, but you can even throw 1kV on one side
2021-12-21T19:38:54 < catphish> isn't 1kv going to burn the LED?
2021-12-21T19:39:21 < kakium69> maybe not across the led
2021-12-21T19:39:54 < kakium69> also discrete transistor doesn't usually have any measures against any ESD catphish
2021-12-21T19:39:58 < catphish> gate body leakage - 80nA - i don't think that's going to destroy my MCU
2021-12-21T19:40:18 < mawk> blue loctite glued firmly the screws of my laptop
2021-12-21T19:40:26 < mawk> and I couldn't unscrew them
2021-12-21T19:40:32 < mawk> so I brought the drill: https://i.imgur.com/RnlRsor.jpeg
2021-12-21T19:40:39 < catphish> ESD is an issue though, the alternative is to just clamp the input with external diode, others seem to do this
2021-12-21T19:40:45 < mawk> it worked perfectly to remove them, with left handed drill bits
2021-12-21T19:40:46 < BrainDamage> catphish: yes, it'll burn the led, but not the mcu
2021-12-21T19:40:56 < catphish> though i'm not totally sure i understand how to do this correctly
2021-12-21T19:41:31 < kakium69> see how much you can clamp via one pin
2021-12-21T19:41:34 < mawk> I changed the case of my laptop, no loctite this time, and added the RAM I got from filling a warranty claim on my failing RAM
2021-12-21T19:41:35 < kakium69> from datasheet
2021-12-21T19:41:45 < BrainDamage> TVS diode for esd
2021-12-21T19:41:58 < mawk> I still kept the failing RAM and blacklisted the bad address thanks to PaulFertser 
2021-12-21T19:42:12 < mawk> now I have a 64 GiB RAM laptop
2021-12-21T19:44:23 < kakium69> catphish: you could replace R3 with divider in case you want to scale your logic hi-range
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2021-12-21T19:45:29 < kakium69> from divider just have couple magnitudes higher resistor that goes to TVS/Zener and mcu pin
2021-12-21T19:45:43 < catphish> kakium69: i can't change the voltage on D1, is has to be 9v or 6v, consequenntly, i can't draw much current to delect that voltage
2021-12-21T19:46:22 < catphish> i mean, R3 *is* a divider already, so yes, if i use a zener, i will need a large resistor
2021-12-21T19:48:18 < kakium69> a part of divider
2021-12-21T19:48:35 < catphish> kakium69: if the solution as simple as this? https://i.imgur.com/wdJ4eUM.png
2021-12-21T19:48:50 < catphish> *is
2021-12-21T19:49:02 < kakium69> do others use fet instead of relay?
2021-12-21T19:49:30 < catphish> yes
2021-12-21T19:50:40 < BrainDamage> be only careful that a voltage spikee @ input will inject through mcu_sw through Cgd
2021-12-21T19:50:53 < catphish> this is someone elses solution: https://i.imgur.com/q0Tw7YZ.png
2021-12-21T19:51:12 < catphish> BrainDamage: yeah, unfortunately i don't know how good the transient rejection on the RP2040 is
2021-12-21T19:51:42 < kakium69> NPN would be better than fet I think
2021-12-21T19:52:06 < catphish> i don't like that solution because PILOT_IN will reach at least 3.3V + D1, i assume they're using a 5v tolerant MCU
2021-12-21T19:52:22 < catphish> kakium69: what's the practical difference?
2021-12-21T19:52:30 < catphish> i always use FETs because, habit
2021-12-21T19:53:08 < BrainDamage> BE diode is a free clamp towards gnd
2021-12-21T19:53:21 < kakium69> I think BJTs are more tolerant for transients
2021-12-21T19:53:44 < kakium69> also current switched instead of potential switched
2021-12-21T19:53:46 < BrainDamage> and base resistor will help limitiing current against io pin
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2021-12-21T19:58:38 < catphish> i've actually never used a BJT
2021-12-21T19:59:56 < kakium69> it's current amplifier
2021-12-21T20:01:19 < kakium69> put current into base and collector current increases
2021-12-21T20:01:36 < kakium69> with gain usually 100 150x
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2021-12-21T20:03:07 < catphish> can i use one as my level shifter?
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2021-12-21T20:03:37 < kakium69> idk what kind of level shifter
2021-12-21T20:04:22 < catphish> i mean attach my 3v/6v/9v/12v to the base and the GPIO to the collector
2021-12-21T20:04:42 < catphish> limit the current into the base, and all current will flow safely to GND?
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2021-12-21T20:05:16  * catphish doodles design
2021-12-21T20:07:08 < catphish> thusly? https://i.imgur.com/e2Xq8fT.png
2021-12-21T20:09:24 < catphish> i guess i need to make sure enough current can actually from R18, 47k might be a bit large
2021-12-21T20:09:42 < kakium69> calculate how much current there is in base
2021-12-21T20:09:58 < kakium69> in function of pilot voltage
2021-12-21T20:11:14 < catphish> i'll do some calculations :)
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2021-12-21T20:12:14 < catphish> BJT or FET for the transistor between the 1.5k resistor and GND? i assume it doesn't matter much and a BJT will just waste energy?
2021-12-21T20:18:05 < kakium69> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1cXD1ZSsqM_GQHFGVYkn4nbQWCBmv20Me/view?usp=sharing here is my take on this
2021-12-21T20:19:19 < kakium69> use that 2k71 to scale down the voltage so that lowest pilot high voltage matches highest mcu low-to-high
2021-12-21T20:19:54 < kakium69> and clamp with mcu pin the excess
2021-12-21T20:23:33 < kakium69> use BJT because robustness and BE diode also needs active current source to activate so it won't do weird stuff when mcu is uninitialized
2021-12-21T20:24:48 < kakium69> with fet you need one pulldown resistor if you don't want fet to do oscillating stuff when mcu output pin is floating
2021-12-21T20:24:57 < catphish> kakium69: ah i understand now, that's interesting, this will work as long as PILOT_IN doesn't fall below the logic input level when EVSE_SW is on
2021-12-21T20:25:21 < catphish> i like the BJT approach, but yours is wonderfully simple if it works out
2021-12-21T20:25:49 < kakium69> you can simulate it with gpio leakage currents etc.
2021-12-21T20:28:14 < kakium69> series resistor size has minimum resistance constraint that is set by gpio pin clamping current and maximum that is set by input leakage having noticeable effect on voltage
2021-12-21T20:29:38 < kakium69> then pick something smack in the middle of those constraints and it should work just fine
2021-12-21T20:30:17 < catphish> kakium69: at its simplest: https://tinyurl.com/y4xvjeou
2021-12-21T20:30:52 < catphish> it'll need some margin for safety
2021-12-21T20:31:27 < kakium69> you need series resistor for that mcu input
2021-12-21T20:31:41 < kakium69> that 1k + 1.7k is not going to do anything
2021-12-21T20:32:37 < kakium69> go to worst case voltage and see clamping current across 3v zener
2021-12-21T20:33:12 < BrainDamage> i'd use a 3.3v zener and stop worrying
2021-12-21T20:33:21 < kakium69> that too
2021-12-21T20:33:34 < BrainDamage> no need to overthink for a few cent part
2021-12-21T20:34:33 < kakium69> yes
2021-12-21T20:34:36 < catphish> as before... is the solution as simple as this? https://i.imgur.com/wdJ4eUM.png
2021-12-21T20:34:49 < kakium69> catphish: yes
2021-12-21T20:35:08 < BrainDamage> yes, but bjt in place of a mos
2021-12-21T20:35:18 < BrainDamage> for aforementioned reasons
2021-12-21T20:35:20 < kakium69> and series resistor instead of pulldown
2021-12-21T20:35:45 < catphish> what was the reason for using a BJT? what am i protecting against?
2021-12-21T20:35:53 < kakium69> gate capacitance
2021-12-21T20:36:21 < BrainDamage> input spikes going on the mcu's pin
2021-12-21T20:36:58 < catphish> input spikes from EVSE_CP going back into MCU_SW?
2021-12-21T20:37:03 < kakium69> yes
2021-12-21T20:37:26 < Xogium> ventYl: so started trying to think about how to integrate espeak-ng as lib into mbed, and I'm not too sure how to proceed. The idea is that mbed can just include files if you add them in a project, but I don't know how to tell it to compile the lib, not once but twice, because it stops building the project due to the segfault
2021-12-21T20:38:13 < catphish> kakium69: is this something that happens when the FET is off? i assume it's not a problem when it's on, since it'll have low impedance to GND anyway
2021-12-21T20:38:16 < ventYl> Xogium: well, good news is, that you can prepare those headers on a PC and then simply drop them into build for MCU
2021-12-21T20:38:24 < ventYl> as long as both are the same version
2021-12-21T20:38:39 < ventYl> so you don't even have to build all that stuff for which espeak is called recursively
2021-12-21T20:38:47 < catphish> i'm happy with BJT anyway, just need to calculate the current requirement
2021-12-21T20:38:54 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-21T20:39:32 < catphish> plagarism tells me that 1k (3.3mA) will work, but i'll do maths
2021-12-21T20:40:43 < Xogium> so I can just run initial build then grab dict_dump.h file and add it into mbed
2021-12-21T20:41:03 < kakium69> that should result in collector current of 160mA(gain 50) - 500mA(gain 150) catphish
2021-12-21T20:41:58 < BrainDamage> catphish: any resistor that makes  Ib>=Ic/100 will work
2021-12-21T20:42:14 < BrainDamage> you want the transistor saturated, not in linear region
2021-12-21T20:42:30 < BrainDamage> so a bit higher base current is better
2021-12-21T20:42:43 < kakium69> if you calculate with gain 100 you are well saturated BrainDamage?
2021-12-21T20:42:57 < kakium69> usually'
2021-12-21T20:44:28 < kakium69> collector current is at 12volts 8mA :p
2021-12-21T20:44:53 < kakium69> just round that to 100mA
2021-12-21T20:46:05 < BrainDamage> no, with 50 is more conservative, but i usually take the 100th's value and double or triple it anyway
2021-12-21T20:46:29 < BrainDamage> it's not like few mA will be crucial
2021-12-21T20:46:53 < catphish> thanks, i'll check that all myself too
2021-12-21T20:47:06 < kakium69> MMBT3904 has minimum gain of 100 @ Ice=10mA
2021-12-21T20:47:25 < kakium69> and Vce is btw 1Volts
2021-12-21T20:47:31 < kakium69> if that even matters
2021-12-21T20:51:28 < kakium69> *Ic not Ice
2021-12-21T20:51:32 < Xogium> so I can let mbed compile the lib, yes ? Or am I meant to give to mbed already pre-compiled ? Not sure how to, if that is the case
2021-12-21T20:59:09 < catphish> collector current at 12v is actually only 4.8mA because there's a 1k impedance at the remote voltage source, so even 1mA into the base would be overkill, so no problem :)
2021-12-21T20:59:29 < kakium69> 1mA should be fine
2021-12-21T20:59:35 < kakium69> 3.3mA fine too
2021-12-21T21:01:48 < catphish> can i kill 2 birds with 1 stone like this? https://i.imgur.com/Qvg0MjF.png
2021-12-21T21:02:47 < catphish> if this will work, it's beautiful
2021-12-21T21:03:10 < kakium69> that looks very sensitive
2021-12-21T21:04:32 < catphish> that's true
2021-12-21T21:04:44 < BrainDamage> catphish: no, that's not good
2021-12-21T21:05:00 < BrainDamage> a npn transistor hhas a BC diode
2021-12-21T21:05:57 < catphish> oh ok
2021-12-21T21:06:14 < catphish> zener it is then :)
2021-12-21T21:19:58 < catphish> done - i hope https://i.imgur.com/jfJpXt5.png
2021-12-21T21:22:42 < kakium69> you are quite confident with that low-impendance path to +3v3.. is that vehicle side source?
2021-12-21T21:24:01 < kakium69> ah yes
2021-12-21T21:24:08 < kakium69> it's all passive in plug side
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2021-12-21T21:26:06 < catphish> yeah, it's passive, i'm not worried on that pin
2021-12-21T21:27:08 < kakium69> I wonder how the circuit would look inside production EV vehicle controller
2021-12-21T21:28:21 < catphish> "better"
2021-12-21T21:29:07 < kakium69> more robbust
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2021-12-21T22:28:33 < upgrdman> comp sci pros: anyone know of a nice guide on how to think in terms of SIMD (vector instructions) ? like examples of tricks used, etc? 
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2021-12-21T22:29:03 < upgrdman> some things are obvious, but some things are very-non-obvious
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2021-12-21T22:45:34 < kakium69> join asm?
2021-12-21T22:50:37 < steve__> no tricks, just stupid questions.  is there SIMD support on STM32 + gcc?  I have used the MAC instructions with good result.
2021-12-21T23:24:42 < upgrdman> steve__, this isnt specific to any arch
2021-12-21T23:25:05 < upgrdman> but yes, stm32 has some basic SIMD instructions iirc
2021-12-21T23:25:12 < upgrdman> ARM's NEON
2021-12-21T23:27:49 < BrainDamage> 3d stuff is easy with simd
2021-12-21T23:28:20 < steve__> yeah but can GCC emit them?  I know GCC can emit the MAC instructions if you say please.  maybe it's better to write the inline asm, dunno.
2021-12-21T23:31:58 < BrainDamage> inline asm is how i've always seen it used
2021-12-21T23:45:40 < sauce> upgrdman: no NEON on cortex-m
2021-12-21T23:47:26 < upgrdman> orly?
2021-12-21T23:47:36 < upgrdman> i could of sworn i read about crude SIMD on stm32
2021-12-21T23:49:35 < sauce> yes there is a set of integer simd instructions in the dsp extension
2021-12-21T23:49:37 < sauce> it is not neon
2021-12-21T23:53:21 < sauce> I see arm has made it even harder to get their docs now, very nice
--- Day changed Wed Dec 22 2021
2021-12-22T00:00:17 < qyx> we are all using esp32 now
2021-12-22T00:00:21 < qyx> so doesn't matter much
2021-12-22T00:02:01 < upgrdman> does esp32 have simd?
2021-12-22T00:02:08 < upgrdman> i have a few ESP32-CAM's
2021-12-22T00:02:28 < upgrdman> $8 wifi webcam, surprising decent
2021-12-22T00:03:26 < qyx> jpa-: is this okay http://xob.kapsi.fi/~jpa/stm32/freenode/libera/freenode/libera/freenode/libera/freenode/libera/freenode/libera/
2021-12-22T00:03:40 < upgrdman> needs moar subdirs
2021-12-22T00:03:42 < qyx> upgrdman: the quality is poor
2021-12-22T00:04:05 < qyx> also it doesn't handle bigger pictures correctly
2021-12-22T00:04:07 < upgrdman> qyx, picture quality? not great, but the prices its good enough
2021-12-22T00:04:09 < qyx> and there is a ton of noise
2021-12-22T00:04:21 < qyx> ov2640 alone is much better if handled properly
2021-12-22T00:04:43 < upgrdman> got any screenshits of the problem? it was working ok for me when i played with it a month ago
2021-12-22T00:05:00 < qyx> hm, probably not anymore
2021-12-22T00:05:01 < upgrdman> i think i was only doing 240p though. maybe 360p
2021-12-22T00:05:08 < qyx> oh
2021-12-22T00:05:12 < qyx> I used 1280x1024
2021-12-22T00:05:16 < upgrdman> oh
2021-12-22T00:05:34 < upgrdman> ok, ya, i would expect that to look like shit for $8
2021-12-22T00:06:00 < upgrdman> does the cam module have a jpeg codec, or is that done on the eps32?
2021-12-22T00:06:13 < qyx> it has jpeg
2021-12-22T00:06:19 < qyx> but not particularly good one
2021-12-22T00:06:24 < upgrdman> k
2021-12-22T00:06:25 < upgrdman> ya
2021-12-22T00:06:49 < qyx> (idk actually if there are good/bad encoders, or if they are technically possible)
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2021-12-22T00:22:13 < catphish> hopefully done :) EVSE + CAN + 1 12v digital input and 1 low side switch https://i.imgur.com/mk1qldd.png
2021-12-22T00:23:00 < upgrdman> can... god, im getting flashbacks from an old project
2021-12-22T00:23:31 < upgrdman> 4 or 5 years ago, they wants a PCB that could communicate with damn near any interface
2021-12-22T00:23:51 < upgrdman> rs232, rs485, can, ethernet, usb AND lvds
2021-12-22T00:24:13 < upgrdman> and all of them needs >4kV of isolation.... 
2021-12-22T00:25:09 < upgrdman> after they saw the cost and dev time required, and after lots of haggling, im down to rs232 and rs485 :)
2021-12-22T00:26:13 < upgrdman> catphish, whats evse?
2021-12-22T00:27:04 < catphish> upgrdman: electric car AC charging cable
2021-12-22T00:27:12 < upgrdman> ah
2021-12-22T00:27:21 < catphish> Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (i think)
2021-12-22T00:27:50 < catphish> basically 230VAC + a couple of control lines to discover the allowed current and monitor the protective earth
2021-12-22T00:28:56 < catphish> that board is based on my previous board which provides an interface between the battery BMS modules, and CAN https://i.imgur.com/fmbIVah.jpg
2021-12-22T00:29:22 < catphish> that one does have some isolation, only 1kv though
2021-12-22T00:29:39 < karlp> catphish: this is what I did recently, but I'm not an expert in this field... https://bin.jvnv.net/file/uG99l.png
2021-12-22T00:30:39 < catphish> what does this do?
2021-12-22T00:30:58 < catphish> protected level shifting?
2021-12-22T00:35:25 < karlp> wide input range digital io.
2021-12-22T00:35:47 < karlp> though I need to consider what sir braindamage was talking about for using bjt's now...
2021-12-22T00:36:44 < kakium69> is it that bad when you have fet that way
2021-12-22T00:37:22  * karlp shrugs.
2021-12-22T00:37:39 < karlp> not an expert, I was contributing an opinion, not a gospel :)
2021-12-22T00:37:58 < BrainDamage> karlp: you have clamping diodes at input, so you won't have issues about spikes traveling to the gates
2021-12-22T00:38:10 < karlp> my needs were to allow both wet/dry inputs, 
2021-12-22T00:38:15 < BrainDamage> so mos will do fine
2021-12-22T00:38:23 < karlp> oh, was catphish trying to cheap out on them?
2021-12-22T00:38:40 < karlp> or are you saying if I replace the mos with a bjt I can drop the tvs? that seems heretical...
2021-12-22T00:39:03 < kakium69> about that BC diode
2021-12-22T00:39:04 < BrainDamage> catphish needed both switching the input and detecting it
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2021-12-22T00:39:42 < karlp> ahh, that I wasnt' following properly.
2021-12-22T00:39:50 < BrainDamage> the problem was switching the input, if the input's dirty, the unclamped spikes would go down the mos' gate
2021-12-22T00:40:17 < BrainDamage> so you'd either have to put another clamp on the mos'  drain, or just use a bjt
2021-12-22T00:40:28 < BrainDamage> which has a natural diode to gnd
2021-12-22T00:41:13 < karlp> so what, you hi-z the micro pin and get an digital input, or you can drive it as an output?
2021-12-22T00:41:17 < karlp> and hope nothing burns?
2021-12-22T00:41:22 < kakium69> catphish: did you use NPN_BEC for your sot23?
2021-12-22T00:41:45 < kakium69> or some other pin order?
2021-12-22T00:42:15 < BrainDamage> i think the pins were separate even
2021-12-22T00:42:37 < kakium69> pretty much only gotcha point of the circuit
2021-12-22T00:42:37 < BrainDamage> but it's automotive 12v they'd have to switchh
2021-12-22T00:42:59 < BrainDamage> and that one is 12v only seen with a blurry telescope
2021-12-22T00:43:12 < karlp> yeah, sounds like a job for an opto...
2021-12-22T00:43:24 < BrainDamage> that's what I said itfp
2021-12-22T00:43:28 < karlp> :)
2021-12-22T00:43:49 < karlp> If I'm saying what you're syaing, I'm happy with that :)
2021-12-22T00:44:32 < BrainDamage> I mean, your reasoning is fine, it's just the extra requirements that eventually pushed down this route
2021-12-22T00:44:53 < BrainDamage> at least it's not laurenceb style
2021-12-22T00:45:23 < karlp> I've got some lolrence style engineering in the works at the moment, if it works, I'll let you know :)
2021-12-22T00:45:38 < Steffanx> Is Laurenceb even alive?
2021-12-22T00:46:53 < catphish> kakium69: kicad has a library entry for MMBT3904 - i just trusted it
2021-12-22T00:47:27 < kakium69> yolo
2021-12-22T00:47:39 < catphish> but according to its numbering, it's BEC, yes
2021-12-22T00:54:43 < catphish> kakium69: all gory details: https://imgur.com/a/G2lL1Hq
2021-12-22T00:55:20 < kakium69> you might want to use NC for not connected
2021-12-22T00:55:24 < kakium69> in schematic
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2021-12-22T00:55:47 < kakium69> so you can run DRC without all the bloat
2021-12-22T00:56:08 < catphish> i've never used schematic DRC actually
2021-12-22T00:56:26 < catphish> perhaps i should
2021-12-22T00:57:56 < kakium69> then you need to know another thing
2021-12-22T00:57:59 < kakium69> PWR_FLAG
2021-12-22T00:58:22 < catphish> need to move a few things to improve the 3v3 power plane connections
2021-12-22T00:58:33 < kakium69> indicates that net without any pin specified as power input has power
2021-12-22T01:00:13 < catphish> makes sense
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2021-12-22T01:03:08 < kakium69> ie. diode to ldo
2021-12-22T01:03:24 < kakium69> *power output
2021-12-22T01:03:43 < kakium69> catphish: you found some low side switcher there?
2021-12-22T01:03:55 < catphish> yes
2021-12-22T01:04:27 < kakium69> good call
2021-12-22T01:04:28 < qyx> pwr_fla& all the way
2021-12-22T01:04:30 < kakium69> what does it do?
2021-12-22T01:04:54 < catphish> it has handy things like overtemp sensing, TVS for protection from inductive loads, etc
2021-12-22T01:06:11 < kakium69> it's rather using the transistor for clamping
2021-12-22T01:06:16 < kakium69> usually
2021-12-22T01:06:46 < kakium69> but what does it do in this application?
2021-12-22T01:07:24 < catphish> layout https://i.imgur.com/GIAnq8t.png
2021-12-22T01:07:57 < catphish> what does what do? the low side switch?
2021-12-22T01:08:12 < kakium69> ye
2021-12-22T01:08:49 < catphish> well, i'm not entirely sure, possibly an EVSE locking pin solenoid
2021-12-22T01:08:55 < catphish> maybe just a charging light
2021-12-22T01:09:23 < kakium69> overkill for light
2021-12-22T01:09:47 < catphish> well if it was just an LED it could go straight to the MCU, i'm not certain yet
2021-12-22T01:10:15 < catphish> i need to check up on whether i actually have enough IO too
2021-12-22T01:10:29 < catphish> might need ignition switch input, not sure
2021-12-22T01:11:06 < catphish> it's a finished design, but requirements are still slightly unclear, so more of a doodle then something i'm ready to order
2021-12-22T01:14:09 < catphish> i'm really struggling to pin down my requirements
2021-12-22T01:14:48 < catphish> i thought reusing the layout of my previous board might be nice, but likely it'll be better to do more GPIO instead and make it longer
2021-12-22T01:15:08 < catphish> (ie add more GPIO on left side and leave right for CAN and power)
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2021-12-22T01:21:54 < kakium69> Steffanx: https://imgur.com/gallery/jvImE1i
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2021-12-22T01:22:35 < catphish> ouch, covid booster = arm pain :(
2021-12-22T01:25:31 < kakium69> hmm that sweet 5g radiating from the muscle injection
2021-12-22T01:26:31 < kakium69> to side of torso and neck
2021-12-22T01:27:46 < catphish> wow this charger i just bought from china has a 108A DC-DC converter
2021-12-22T01:29:28 < kakium69> that's solid
2021-12-22T01:30:18 < kakium69> but not unexpected given the amount of electronics in EVs
2021-12-22T01:31:46 < catphish> power steering costs a lot and likely runs on 12V
2021-12-22T01:32:00 < catphish> and various other pumps
2021-12-22T01:33:24 < kakium69> HVAC
2021-12-22T01:33:33 < kakium69> except the AC compressor
2021-12-22T01:37:14 < catphish> yeah, compressor and resistive header usually run on high voltage
2021-12-22T01:38:06 < catphish> hopefully my car won't need anywhere near that much, but heating fans and brake assist pump will pull a decent amount
2021-12-22T01:40:24 < catphish> kakium69: this is the charger http://www.ovartech.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Ovartech-Liquid-cooled-6.6KW-OBC1.5KW-DCDC-CAD662DF400-12152-Data-Sheet.pdf
2021-12-22T01:40:38 < catphish> $2000 + tax :)
2021-12-22T01:43:14 < qyx> catphish: there is no data on efficiency
2021-12-22T01:43:21 < qyx> how is that even possible
2021-12-22T01:43:26 < kakium69> tesla charger didn't worki?
2021-12-22T01:45:43 < catphish> kakium69: tesla charger does work, but i reject because for my project it's too bulky for what it provides
2021-12-22T01:46:15 < catphish> qyx: efficiency is there on page 2
2021-12-22T01:46:45 < catphish> minimum 94% at full load
2021-12-22T01:46:54 < qyx> oh overlooked
2021-12-22T01:47:30 < catphish> 6% of 6.6kW is a lot of hot water :)
2021-12-22T01:47:58 < qyx> 400 W is not that much
2021-12-22T01:48:19 < catphish> nothing that can't be dissipated in a vehicle radiator
2021-12-22T01:48:23 < qyx> a common todays graphic card
2021-12-22T01:49:05 < catphish> modern graphics cards are insanely power hungry, mine genuinely heats my small room
2021-12-22T01:49:28 < catphish> at least the air around the PC :)
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2021-12-22T04:51:31 < Xogium> erk, my sleep schedule is so messed up…
2021-12-22T04:51:38 < Xogium> night/morning, I guess
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2021-12-22T07:39:08 < Xogium> ventYl: hmm well sorry buddy, looks like you might need to fix the attempt at trying to free static data… No matter what I throw at mbed, it refuses to build the demo I work on because of it. It build the libespeak-ng stuff, and then make crashes so it considers the build a failure, and stops right then and there
2021-12-22T07:39:33 < Xogium> unless I'm very dumb
2021-12-22T07:40:04 < Xogium> like I even tried and gave it the .h file already built but there's errors even there
2021-12-22T07:40:52 < Xogium> no a segfault but enough that la-dictionary.lo errors out and bails
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2021-12-22T08:01:43 < Xogium> also maybe I'm wrong here but… it sounds like the dict dump might be wrong ?
2021-12-22T08:02:05 < Xogium> like I know next to nothing about code and stuff so I don't question what you did
2021-12-22T08:02:25 < jpa-> qyx: yes, it is so that you can look for buffer overflow errors in apache or linux kernel
2021-12-22T08:02:28 < Xogium> but… sounds like gcc is annoyed because it is an array of bytes, but values are larger than a byte ?
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2021-12-22T08:11:13 < mawk> what do you mean by free static data Xogium 
2021-12-22T08:11:15 < mawk> you can't do that
2021-12-22T08:12:15 < mawk> a char is always 8 bits everywhere Xogium , if you make a char array it's always bytes
2021-12-22T08:16:28 < qyx> who said that
2021-12-22T08:19:53 < Xogium> mawk: of course you can't but that,s precisely what's going on here, the espeak dictionary is now done statically, serialized
2021-12-22T08:20:12 < Xogium> but espeak code still tries to free it, is my understanding
2021-12-22T08:21:16 < Xogium> as for the bytes array, well… here's what I get
2021-12-22T08:21:22 < Xogium> if I can manage and pastebin it that is
2021-12-22T08:21:32 < Xogium> ah, there it is
2021-12-22T08:21:41 < Xogium> https://paste.xogium.me/dS.log.zst
2021-12-22T08:32:38 < mawk> what qyx 
2021-12-22T08:33:10 < mawk> what is a zst file Xogium 
2021-12-22T08:33:29 < mawk> z standard
2021-12-22T08:34:11 < mawk> ok I got it
2021-12-22T08:35:13 < mawk> the code is just messed up at some place Xogium 
2021-12-22T08:35:16 < Xogium> yeah sorry should have said
2021-12-22T08:35:28 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-22T08:35:33 < mawk> someone put a line return in the middle of a number
2021-12-22T08:35:39 < mawk> and the compiler goes crazy
2021-12-22T08:35:50 < mawk> the rest is just useless warnings
2021-12-22T08:36:04 < mawk> or maybe not so useless, some of them are about overflow
2021-12-22T08:36:07 < Xogium> well it was ventYl that tweaked the espeak code so it can compile the dictionary statically
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2021-12-22T08:36:17 < Xogium> but I don't know a whole lot more than that
2021-12-22T08:36:30 < mawk> did you modify the code?
2021-12-22T08:36:34 < Xogium> no
2021-12-22T08:36:37 < mawk> hmm
2021-12-22T08:36:39 < mawk> weird
2021-12-22T08:36:48 < mawk> it shouldn't be compiling even on ventYl's side with that error
2021-12-22T08:36:57 < mawk> maybe wait until he's back to clear it up
2021-12-22T08:37:04 < Xogium> https://github.com/ventZl/espeak-ng
2021-12-22T08:37:08 < Xogium> on the mcubuild branch
2021-12-22T08:37:12 < Xogium> if you feel like looking around
2021-12-22T08:37:16 < mawk> also some values in the dictionary are too big
2021-12-22T08:37:31 < Xogium> right soooo… I didn't imagine that part ?
2021-12-22T08:37:43 < mawk> yeah
2021-12-22T08:38:09 < mawk> it could be done on purpose, but it's still weird
2021-12-22T08:39:44 < Xogium> so what ultimately caused the mess is the lf in the middle of a number ?
2021-12-22T08:39:56 < mawk> yes
2021-12-22T08:40:25 < mawk> at src/libespeak-ng/dict_dump.h line 12157
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2021-12-22T08:40:57 < mawk> but I don't see that file in the repo
2021-12-22T08:41:04 < Xogium> yes, normal
2021-12-22T08:41:13 < Xogium> it has to be built once to generate the file
2021-12-22T08:41:23 < Xogium> the initial build triggers the dict_dump.h creation
2021-12-22T08:41:58 < Xogium> and yep it will segfault, but still finishes the build mostly ok, just fails at freeing static data
2021-12-22T08:42:23 < mawk> well if there's an error in make it won't finish the build
2021-12-22T08:43:36 < Xogium> I think the code that was added is mostly in dictionary.c in src/libespeak-ng
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2021-12-22T10:13:37 < mawk> maybe the file is incomplete and generation wasn't finished
2021-12-22T10:13:42 < mawk> and that's why it's cut in the middle of a number
2021-12-22T10:13:50 < mawk> and you try to clean the repo and make again Xogium ?
2021-12-22T10:14:31 < mawk> you can do git clean -fxd to get the repo back as it was when you cloned it
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2021-12-22T11:40:10 < ventYl> Xogium: ok, I will fix it
2021-12-22T11:40:24 < ventYl> yesterday I've been busy by reinstalling some old hardware
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2021-12-22T12:44:23 < Xogium> mawk: yeah I even started from scratch several times just to make sure
2021-12-22T12:45:04 < Xogium> ventYl: that's alright to be busy ;) also see what I mentioned above and talked about with mawk, seems like the generated .h file has some issues
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2021-12-22T12:53:41 < ventYl> hm, that's interesting. that shouldn't happen as generation should be pretty much the only thing which is going on at that time
2021-12-22T12:54:03 < ventYl> synth thread is not started yet as it doesn't have synth data
2021-12-22T12:55:49 < Xogium> yeah, but why would like 12650 get a line feed out of nowhere in the midle of a number ?
2021-12-22T12:56:02 < Xogium> er, line 12650
2021-12-22T13:00:51 < ventYl> let me check it
2021-12-22T13:03:42 < ventYl> Xogium: ok, now I see the problem
2021-12-22T13:03:53 < ventYl> actually, there is more than one
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2021-12-22T13:06:31 < Xogium> too big for byte array, yes ?
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2021-12-22T13:34:01 < ventYl> yeah, I fucked it up :)
2021-12-22T13:34:25 < Xogium> heh, happens to everyone
2021-12-22T13:35:49 < ventYl> I wonder why it didn't show up here
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2021-12-22T13:46:42 < Xogium> hmm not sure
2021-12-22T13:46:47 < Xogium> different gcc version ?
2021-12-22T13:47:08 < Xogium> am on gcc 11.3, I believe
2021-12-22T13:51:05 < ventYl> this aspect is so fundamental, it should work the same regardless of gcc version
2021-12-22T13:53:28 < Xogium> hrm
2021-12-22T13:53:36 < Xogium> then I really have no idea
2021-12-22T13:59:43 < Xogium> so like you run into it yourself now, or you only can fix it because of what I provided ?
2021-12-22T14:06:01 < Xogium> but I mean… it could be a lot of stuff, couldn't it ? Could be libc, could be aslr
2021-12-22T14:06:19 < Xogium> or the horror that is uninitialized memory
2021-12-22T14:11:23 < ventYl> well, this file and a lot of overflow errors are definitely caused by runtime
2021-12-22T14:11:35 < ventYl> and I'll have to fix that segfault / abort anyway
2021-12-22T14:12:03 < ventYl> while this happened, it is possible, that your's also shows some other erratic behavior, which mine doesn't, which causes that premature segfault
2021-12-22T14:12:56 < Xogium> right
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2021-12-22T18:17:48 < catphish> these cool pin headers claim to be "Intermatable with industry standard connectors" https://docs.rs-online.com/cd7e/A700000006547561.pdf - but i have no idea what connectors will plug into them, the ones they provide are not available
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2021-12-22T19:40:24 < kakium69> catphish: have you concidered vibration aspect in your designs?
2021-12-22T19:42:00 < Steffann> If you've seen his wifi module design then you can only say: no ;)
2021-12-22T19:42:16 < Steffann> Design with wifi module*
2021-12-22T19:42:38 < kakium69> that seems to be commonplace in DIY ev commynity
2021-12-22T19:42:46 < kakium69> just have wifi board flapping around there
2021-12-22T19:43:24 < kakium69> that is mounted off-axis from one corner
2021-12-22T19:44:19 < jpa-> isn't the wifi board just for debugging or something?
2021-12-22T19:45:20 < catphish> the wifi board is for config / debug, it can in theory be removed once the vehicle is working, but many are deep inside sealed drive units, so they'll probably remove themselves :)
2021-12-22T19:46:11 < catphish> this is mine in my tesla inverter, it *really* needs securing before i drive it https://i.imgur.com/hi0NVs5.jpg
2021-12-22T19:47:13 < catphish> kakium69: vibration is clearly a worry, if i can use automotive connectors, i will, i'm not to worried about surface mount components
2021-12-22T19:47:33 < kakium69> it depends what kind of mounting point arangement you have
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2021-12-22T19:48:48 < kakium69> those boards are quite small though and 1.6mm?
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2021-12-22T20:05:19 < PaulFertser> Some traces there are surprisingly not straight.
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2021-12-22T20:45:27 < Xogium> hell yeah ! Gnocchi for dinner
2021-12-22T20:45:32 < Xogium> erm, sorry
2021-12-22T20:47:35 < catphish> PaulFertser: i suspect the person who routed that PCB was drunk :) and it wasn't even me
2021-12-22T20:49:12 < catphish> when you start working on the PCB: https://i.imgur.com/rtqK5Rr.png
2021-12-22T20:49:23 < catphish> by the end: https://i.imgur.com/vyisupW.png
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2021-12-22T20:53:56 < PaulFertser> catphish: :D
2021-12-22T20:54:25 < ventYl> i hope that at the end of this dd session I won't end up with two wiped drives
2021-12-22T20:54:55 < Xogium> ventYl: what are you doing ? :O
2021-12-22T20:56:06 < ventYl> Xogium: I removed linux from my old macbook and put back mac os x. And now I want to move that mac os installation onto another drive, which is currently used to boot different computer
2021-12-22T20:56:18 < ventYl> so I am moving huge GBs of data and system around
2021-12-22T20:57:04 < Xogium> that sounds like it could totally blow up in your face if not done right indeed :p
2021-12-22T20:57:33 < ventYl> if I wrote that last dd wrong, then I am overwriting boot drive of my desktop with bullshit from empty SSD
2021-12-22T20:58:30 < Xogium> erk
2021-12-22T20:58:43 < Xogium> I sure hope you can recover should that happen…
2021-12-22T20:59:00 < ventYl> well no :)
2021-12-22T20:59:18 < Xogium> great… even more scary, huh ?
2021-12-22T20:59:47 < ventYl> yeah
2021-12-22T20:59:54 < Xogium> I swear, the first few times where I wrote images on micro sd and the likes after I switched to m2 drive
2021-12-22T21:00:00 < ventYl> I guess I should remove all unused drives before this operation
2021-12-22T21:00:05 < Xogium> it felt freaking wrong to dd over /dev/sda
2021-12-22T21:00:51 < ventYl> heh, I know that feeling. this machine has emmc and nvme
2021-12-22T21:02:51 < Xogium> hah
2021-12-22T21:02:53 < ventYl> oh, having nvme is actually an advantage. it was safe during all this
2021-12-22T21:03:10 < Xogium> yes because of the nvme0p1 or whatever it is
2021-12-22T21:03:32 < ventYl> and now I have two drives showing similar partition structure, so I probably did that dd right
2021-12-22T21:04:58 < Xogium> hopefully
2021-12-22T21:05:30 < catphish> ventYl: i've only ever once done a DD the wrong way round :D
2021-12-22T21:06:47 < ventYl> I shall wipe source drive immediately
2021-12-22T21:07:09 < ventYl> linux doesn't like if there are two identical logical volumes
2021-12-22T21:07:44 < Xogium> must be confused, poor thing
2021-12-22T21:09:03 < ventYl> now how to turn linux w/ firewire into firewire "target disk mode"
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2021-12-22T21:52:21 < ventYl> a lt
2021-12-22T21:52:28 < ventYl> another dangerous dd in progress
2021-12-22T22:01:53 < PaulFertser> https://nationaldailyng.com/professional-biker-reveals-how-covid-vaccine-destroyed-his-career/
2021-12-22T22:08:19 < Steffann> Yeah what to say PaulFertser
2021-12-22T22:08:56 < mawk> “As soon as they injected it, I had a weird metallic saline taste in my mouth. I asked the guy, ‘Is that normal?’ and he said no, they don’t hear of that much.”
2021-12-22T22:09:10 < mawk> that sounds very psychosomatic
2021-12-22T22:09:18 < PaulFertser> Steffann: he's apparently getting plenty of horrible feedback for being open about it.
2021-12-22T22:09:25 < mawk> it takes 5-15 mn for IM injection to do anything
2021-12-22T22:09:33 < mawk> not 10s
2021-12-22T22:09:51 < PaulFertser> mawk: however the inflammation was real, unfortunately.
2021-12-22T22:09:58 < mawk> yeah
2021-12-22T22:10:13 < mawk> usually it resolves without sequelæ after some time
2021-12-22T22:10:22 < mawk> so his career might not be destroyed 
2021-12-22T22:10:27 < mawk> but it might
2021-12-22T22:10:32 < mawk> even then, yes, there's a risk
2021-12-22T22:10:35 < PaulFertser> Biking is super harsh for the heart.
2021-12-22T22:10:50 < mawk> the risk is lower than the right of myocarditis from COVID
2021-12-22T22:12:32 < PaulFertser> I think it would be fair to have people insured from it. But the USA passed a law resulting in "no liability for Pfizer" instead.
2021-12-22T22:12:49 < ventYl> I think that the topic here is that if there can be such adverse effects of vaccine, it shouldn't be mandatory
2021-12-22T22:13:06 < ventYl> not being in current situation, such vaccine would probably be revoked
2021-12-22T22:13:33 < Steffann> They they probably all have to be invoked?
2021-12-22T22:13:38 < Steffann> revoked
2021-12-22T22:13:44 < PaulFertser> No, the topic is that all the real trials results must be in the open and that people getting adverse effects must have some insurance to help them if it happens.
2021-12-22T22:14:21 < mawk> the law no liability for pfizer is normal
2021-12-22T22:14:35 < mawk> it's not Pfizer that wants people vaccinated, it's the government
2021-12-22T22:14:42 < mawk> the liability should fall on the government
2021-12-22T22:14:43 < Steffann> insurance, and then you somehow have to prove its the vaccine that caused it?
2021-12-22T22:15:02 < mawk> yeah, well an expert's word is enough
2021-12-22T22:15:08 < PaulFertser> It's Pfizer that profits from it.
2021-12-22T22:15:12 < mawk> it's not car insurance
2021-12-22T22:15:25 < mawk> yes PaulFertser , but they're not forcing anyone to take it
2021-12-22T22:15:44 < mawk> we don't force knife manufacturers to contribute to a liability fund of stabbing victims
2021-12-22T22:15:46 < ventYl> Steffann: I guess that if insurance was covering serious health complications, it would cover 99% causes of serious jab complications without much doubt
2021-12-22T22:15:48 < Steffann> No doctor will say it was the vaccine, probably "might have been" blabla
2021-12-22T22:16:16 < ventYl> + something on top of it, but given the amount of such cases vs. amount of cases caused by covid itself, it will be something like a drop in the ocean
2021-12-22T22:16:25 < mawk> vaccine induced myocarditis is pretty recognizable
2021-12-22T22:16:33 < mawk> a doctor will vouch that it was the vaccine
2021-12-22T22:16:56 < PaulFertser> mawk: not all people are libertarians, some think that the state should have a word in issues like that, and mandating a special fund where vaccine manufacturers would be obliged to contribute to doesn't sound like an idea too horrible.
2021-12-22T22:17:42 < mawk> a special fund by the government sounds enough to me
2021-12-22T22:17:48 < Steffann> So hows boostering in russia going PaulFertser? Will you get a new sputnik?
2021-12-22T22:18:02 < mawk> it's what happens for terrorism victims, the compensation fund is done by the government
2021-12-22T22:18:10 < PaulFertser> Steffann: I got one shot after 6 months passed since the 2nd.
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2021-12-22T23:41:45 < upgrdman> opengl pros: does opengl have any way for me to say "i wont change this memory during the draw call, so please dont make a copy" (to reduce memory bandwidth waste) ? or do i have to use vulkan to get something like that?
--- Day changed Thu Dec 23 2021
2021-12-23T00:02:27 < aandrew> jadew: ready for christmas?
2021-12-23T00:26:56 < Steffanx> "All I want for Xmas is a covid booster shot"
2021-12-23T00:26:58 < Steffanx> ?
2021-12-23T00:26:58 < xnand> ?<factoid> to query, ?<factoid>=value to set, ?<factoid>-forget to unset
2021-12-23T00:55:26 < kakium69> techno is dead apparently
2021-12-23T00:56:07 < kakium69> I tried to look for techno songs but it's all the same EDM
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2021-12-23T01:03:50 < mawk> aren't you like 80 years old Steffanx ? you can already get it
2021-12-23T01:03:53 < mawk> or 90 maybe
2021-12-23T01:05:42 < Steffanx> Yeah I'm like 80
2021-12-23T01:07:58 < Steffanx> I dont know how to use computers 
2021-12-23T01:08:16 < Steffanx> And the GGD is unreachable by phone 
2021-12-23T01:26:40 < catphish> kakium69: v2 https://imgur.com/a/pi17C7X - thanks for the pointers :)
2021-12-23T01:27:25 < catphish> CAN + EVSE + 4 x 12v digital IN + 4 x low side switches
2021-12-23T01:28:00 < kakium69> no need of passives with those low side switchers?
2021-12-23T01:28:05 < kakium69> never used low side one
2021-12-23T01:28:43 < kakium69> it basically has logic input?
2021-12-23T01:30:17 < catphish> https://www.onsemi.com/pdf/datasheet/ncv8402-d.pdf - as far as i can tell, it has everything i'd think to add
2021-12-23T01:42:34 < kakium69> that clamp to gate looks oof
2021-12-23T01:43:03 < kakium69> how much is that internal resistor for gate series resistor
2021-12-23T01:46:11 < kakium69> that gate pin has maximum rating of 14volts
2021-12-23T01:47:37 < kakium69> oh but yes if it's clamping the internal gate voltage only rises to like volt or two
2021-12-23T01:48:21 < catphish> i wonder why it clamps to the gate like that
2021-12-23T01:48:50 < kakium69> when you switch off coil
2021-12-23T01:48:51 < catphish> where's the current supposed to go?
2021-12-23T01:49:08 < kakium69> current wont stop
2021-12-23T01:49:36 < catphish> i know what it does, what i don't understand is why it does to the gate, and not to source
2021-12-23T01:49:53 < kakium69> because you have beefy fet there
2021-12-23T01:49:56 < catphish> i guess it opens the gate when it's active
2021-12-23T01:50:20 < kakium69> why not use that fet to slow down that inductive load
2021-12-23T01:51:11 < catphish> yeah, i see, so the clamp charged the gate, switches on the fet, and current flows through the fet to source
2021-12-23T01:52:21 < catphish> still makes me mildly uncomfortable that the overvoltage goes straight to the MCU, but i asusme they know what they're doing
2021-12-23T01:53:28 < catphish> i'll drive it, if it blows up, i'll try something different :)
2021-12-23T01:55:48 < kakium69> ah found something
2021-12-23T01:55:57 < kakium69> to calculate internal resistance
2021-12-23T01:56:05 < kakium69> of gate
2021-12-23T01:56:46 < kakium69> "Thermal Limit Fault Gate Input Current"
2021-12-23T01:58:46 < kakium69> it would indicate something like 15kohm to 33kohm
2021-12-23T02:00:35 < kakium69> lets see if internal gate goes all the way to 14volts
2021-12-23T02:01:12 < kakium69> so 11volts to clamp with mcu
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2021-12-23T02:01:51 < kakium69> 7mA worst case
2021-12-23T02:02:42 < kakium69> that would require some massive coil
2021-12-23T02:03:25 < kakium69> and would blow that switcher too
2021-12-23T02:03:48 < kakium69> 7mA sounds like something that MCU could clamp
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2021-12-23T11:20:52 < benishor> an ancient native romanian carol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r187yGriBow
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2021-12-23T13:18:23 < Xogium> howdy folks
2021-12-23T13:23:34 < Xogium> I hope ventYl's dd went ok ;)
2021-12-23T14:04:37 -!- spacebyte [~spacebyte@193.137.28.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
2021-12-23T14:50:36 < Xogium> holy shit that exists
2021-12-23T14:50:51 < Xogium> https://www.amazon.com/PortaPow-Cased-Power-Blocker-Single/dp/B094FYL9QT?th=1
2021-12-23T14:52:34 < Xogium> https://portablepowersupplies.co.uk/product/usb-power-blocker
2021-12-23T14:52:49 < Xogium> I never thought I'd freaking find something like this
2021-12-23T14:52:55 < kakium69> benishor: language romanian?
2021-12-23T14:53:17 < benishor> kakium69: sure
2021-12-23T14:53:25 < benishor> some dialect though, thick accent
2021-12-23T14:53:35 < kakium69> sounds balkan-ish
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2021-12-23T15:21:56 < Xogium> though… I'd not take that brand for granted, they appear to be selling scam products, such as a usb-c cable that has data blocker but claim to be able to perform fast charging anyway
2021-12-23T15:22:10 < Xogium> but the vbus supressor adapter seems legitimate, at least from the tons of positive comments on amazon and such
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2021-12-23T17:38:56 < jadew> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/804210713982926894/923391084430757899/D900F336-1EA2-4162-8850-7EC4848A0F20.jpg
2021-12-23T17:43:53 < BrainDamage> I got me a carbon steel wok for xmas
2021-12-23T17:51:27 < jadew> I wanted to get a steel pan, to cook stakes in, but gave up on the idea
2021-12-23T17:51:53 < jadew> I can't cook anything else, so I should probably start smaller
2021-12-23T17:55:20 < BrainDamage> yeah, I can imagine your stakes got pretty hot after the failed shorts
2021-12-23T17:56:02 < BrainDamage> you want cast iron for stakes, etc
2021-12-23T17:56:25 < jadew> it was super heavy tho
2021-12-23T17:56:34 < jadew> like maybe 2-3 kg
2021-12-23T17:56:44 < BrainDamage> mine's 5
2021-12-23T17:56:48 < jadew> I think the trick is thermal conductivity
2021-12-23T17:56:52 < jadew> and thermal mass
2021-12-23T17:56:54 < BrainDamage> nope
2021-12-23T17:57:07 < jadew> what then?
2021-12-23T17:57:11 < BrainDamage> conductivity of cast iron is shit
2021-12-23T17:57:20 < BrainDamage> it's the thermal mass
2021-12-23T17:58:22 < BrainDamage> you heat it to incandesce and when you put the meat on, the temp won't go down to much before it's done cooking
2021-12-23T17:58:48 < jadew> makes sense
2021-12-23T17:59:43 < BrainDamage> it's also why you can't replace cast iron with steel and vice-versa
2021-12-23T18:00:18 < BrainDamage> steel has high-ish conductivity and medium heat capacity
2021-12-23T18:00:58 < BrainDamage> for most things, pans having high heat capacity is a bad thing, more crap to heat and temp changes take longer
2021-12-23T18:01:37 < jadew> you cook a lot?
2021-12-23T18:01:59 < BrainDamage> 2-3 times a day
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2021-12-23T18:03:28 < jadew> yeah, you deserve that wok :)
2021-12-23T18:03:34 < BrainDamage> I despise the way cooking is taught around tho
2021-12-23T18:03:45 < BrainDamage> with recipes and copypaste
2021-12-23T18:04:22 < jadew> well, the idea is to get you started, then you develop a taste for stuff
2021-12-23T18:04:44 < BrainDamage> yeah, but it generally stops at that
2021-12-23T18:05:00 < BrainDamage> instead of for example, learn how to deep fry properly
2021-12-23T18:05:29 < BrainDamage> or how to cut vegetables properly so you don't waste 1h prepping
2021-12-23T18:06:01 < jadew> do you have some links or resources on the topic?
2021-12-23T18:07:42 < BrainDamage> https://www.seriouseats.com/ is good for single topics, even if a bit opinionated at times
2021-12-23T18:08:16 < BrainDamage> good eats the tv series if you're more into vids, even if he gets some stuff wrong from time to time
2021-12-23T18:09:44 < jadew> thanks, that website has lots of guides
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2021-12-23T18:37:19 < benishor> jadew: if you want some cast iron stuff, there's a nice company up in Iasi who sells various cool products
2021-12-23T18:37:38 < benishor> https://www.turnatoriefonta.ro/ here you go
2021-12-23T18:42:28 < jadew> benishor, thanks
2021-12-23T18:43:25 < benishor> and yes, if you wanna do steaks, you need cast iron pans
2021-12-23T18:44:19 < benishor> big thermal mass
2021-12-23T19:00:19 < kakium69> jadew: you took IRC vacation?
2021-12-23T19:00:44 < jadew> kind of
2021-12-23T19:01:36 < jadew> I've been visiting some debate servers on discord
2021-12-23T19:01:44 < kakium69> I don't remember when I was last offline
2021-12-23T19:01:47 < jadew> but I think I'm over that now, the topics keep repeating
2021-12-23T19:01:54 < kakium69> using mobile phone counts as online
2021-12-23T19:02:10 < kakium69> if any quick messaging is used
2021-12-23T19:03:19 < kakium69> maybe couple of days in year
2021-12-23T19:04:23 < BrainDamage> this summer i went to a place that barely has electricity and fresh water
2021-12-23T19:04:34 < BrainDamage> as in, often not even those
2021-12-23T19:04:42 < jadew> sounds relaxing
2021-12-23T19:06:36 < BrainDamage> until you want a hot shower
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2021-12-23T19:14:33 < kakium69> build sauna
2021-12-23T19:15:13 < benishor> use some magma
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2021-12-23T21:50:15 < Steffanx> so is your photoshop still in business mawk?
2021-12-23T21:50:25 < mawk> yes
2021-12-23T21:50:34 < mawk> with afhalen
2021-12-23T21:50:42 < mawk> and op afspraak
2021-12-23T21:50:52 < Steffanx> ah
2021-12-23T21:50:53 < Steffanx> yes
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2021-12-23T22:55:27 < catphish> now a pair - charge controller and battery interface - https://imgur.com/a/8JHgfZY
2021-12-23T22:56:47 < catphish> wifi is gone, i'll just make do debugging with a usb cable :)
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2021-12-23T23:48:25 < kakium69> channel has got smaller
2021-12-23T23:48:37 < kakium69> where is englishman?
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2021-12-23T23:55:02 < Steffanx> Idk.. when was he last here kakium69 ?
2021-12-23T23:55:26 < kakium69> don know
2021-12-23T23:55:32 < kakium69> he sneeked out
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--- Day changed Fri Dec 24 2021
2021-12-24T00:00:12 < Steffanx> So rage quit it was kakium69 
2021-12-24T00:00:22 < kakium69> really?
2021-12-24T00:00:38 < kakium69> but he is canadian
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2021-12-24T01:55:20 < englishman> test
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2021-12-24T01:58:48 < fenugrec> yes
2021-12-24T01:59:09 < mouseghost> englishman, i couldnt read your message
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2021-12-24T02:09:34 < catphish> ugh, why must i thoroughly inspect my boards *after* i order them
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2021-12-24T02:22:59 < kakium69> you have not learned the ways yet
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2021-12-24T02:23:55 < catphish> i decided that 0.2mm probably isn't enough spacing for 400v isolation
2021-12-24T02:24:58 < kakium69> it is not
2021-12-24T02:25:35 < kakium69> in any configuration
2021-12-24T02:25:48 < catphish> https://i.imgur.com/kZH1mIB.png
2021-12-24T02:26:05 < catphish> that connector on the right, which now has no GND fill...
2021-12-24T02:26:26 < kakium69> yeah
2021-12-24T02:26:32 < kakium69> but doesn't it also go to stuff
2021-12-24T02:26:39 < kakium69> via tracks
2021-12-24T02:26:47 < catphish> one sec
2021-12-24T02:27:47 < catphish> https://i.imgur.com/18232ny.png
2021-12-24T02:27:57 < catphish> it does indeed
2021-12-24T02:28:25 < kakium69> nice
2021-12-24T02:28:44 < catphish> specifically to 1nf 1000v capacitors
2021-12-24T02:29:48 < catphish> so now i have to (for the third consecutive time) ask jlc to cancel my large order so i can place it again
2021-12-24T02:31:45 < kakium69> yes
2021-12-24T02:32:24 < catphish> they have annoyingly accepted my order while their office is closed
2021-12-24T02:32:43 < catphish> can't cancel once accepted, but can't contact them either
2021-12-24T02:33:48 < fenugrec> never order a PCB the same day you finish routing it...
2021-12-24T02:33:56 < kakium69> that
2021-12-24T02:34:05 < catphish> yeah, i told myself that last time
2021-12-24T02:34:10 < catphish> but i'm impatient :(
2021-12-24T02:34:16 < kakium69> I think the channel told that too
2021-12-24T02:34:34 < catphish> i'll cancel this one and look again tomorrow
2021-12-24T02:34:48 < fenugrec> future you will thank past you
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2021-12-24T03:07:28 < catphish> 2 lessons: 1) don't order the day you finish routing 2) set up clearance policies for nets before starting routing
2021-12-24T03:07:50 < catphish> if i'd just set the clearance for the HV nets, kicad would have had my back anyway
2021-12-24T03:09:47 < catphish> order cancelled, mistakes fixed, sleep now :)
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2021-12-24T07:39:01 < Xogium> ok this will probably sound like a weird question but, is it even possible to overload an esd wriststrap or mat ? Like, could I potentially have gotten so much esd buildup that it wouldn't be able to dissipate it all ?
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2021-12-24T09:28:34 < jpa-> Xogium: generally it would be very difficult to exceed the dissipative capacity of a well-working strap
2021-12-24T09:28:49 < jpa-> but they do break sometimes
2021-12-24T09:28:58 < jpa-> due to mechanical damage
2021-12-24T09:29:46 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-24T09:30:26 < Xogium> right so, I can't exceed it even if my body charges up like crazy, like 35kv ?
2021-12-24T09:30:59 < Xogium> I tend to charge that much and yes, a zap at that force feels like someone slapped you right in the face, while your skin and their own is wet
2021-12-24T09:31:03 < Xogium> it freaking hurts
2021-12-24T09:32:18 < Xogium> I really don't know how it is I manage to charge up so much but… its no wonder I keep blowing up things
2021-12-24T09:32:36 < Xogium> I'm at my 8th microwave oven fucked up
2021-12-24T09:32:52 < jpa-> human capacitance to environment is usually less than 300 pF, and wrist wrap resistance is usually 1 Mohm; 35kV will discharge to 10V in log(35000/10)*300pF*1Mohm = 3 milliseconds
2021-12-24T09:33:19 < Xogium> right… should do
2021-12-24T09:34:09 < jpa-> maybe you need ESD socks or something :)
2021-12-24T09:34:14 < Xogium> I sort of wish those so-called cordless wriststraps worked :D pure fantazy, but wouldn't it be nice to always be grounded properly and avoid esd buildup
2021-12-24T09:34:31 < Xogium> *fantasy
2021-12-24T09:35:14 < jpa-> there used to be these ionizers for eliminating static charge on vinyl discs - maybe they would work on humans also
2021-12-24T09:36:02 < Xogium> I was warming up my chocolate milk this morning, waiting for it, I touched the microwave with the tip of a finger, it went 'dzzzz', tripped main breaker, and… doesn't work anymore
2021-12-24T09:36:06 < Xogium> sigh
2021-12-24T09:36:59 < jpa-> raspberry pi rotating a remote electric field meter to locate any "hot" targets, and then shoot the opposite polarity ions towards them :)
2021-12-24T09:37:20 < Xogium> that sounds insane
2021-12-24T09:37:38 < jpa-> maybe you can start selling ESD testing services
2021-12-24T09:38:11 < jpa-> do you get high charges everywhere, or only in your home?
2021-12-24T09:38:26 < jpa-> maybe the floor material is particularly ESD-unsafe
2021-12-24T09:39:02 < Xogium> absolutely everywhere
2021-12-24T09:39:50 < Xogium> I'm super annoyed, this microwave I found like 4 months ago was the last not touchscreen one in store
2021-12-24T09:39:54 < Xogium> erk
2021-12-24T09:40:13 < jpa-> don't they sell the purely electromechanical ones where you live?
2021-12-24T09:40:18 < Xogium> it beeps but doesn't start up anymore or anything
2021-12-24T09:40:33 < jpa-> i would assume those to be much more tolerant of ESD because the timer is just mechanical
2021-12-24T09:40:55 < Xogium> the ones where you turn some wheel ? Hmm
2021-12-24T09:40:59 < jpa-> yeah
2021-12-24T09:41:09 < jpa-> the one i have has just two wheels, one for power and one for time
2021-12-24T09:41:15 < Xogium> not sure… I've not seen one of those yet
2021-12-24T09:41:40 < Xogium> my parents had one, bought in the 80's
2021-12-24T09:42:11 < jpa-> i bought mine in 2018, they are still pretty common in finland
2021-12-24T09:43:11 < Xogium> hmm not sure about france
2021-12-24T09:43:37 < Xogium> I'll have to dig deeper
2021-12-24T09:43:59 < jpa-> e.g. Logik LCMW21E is 40 EUR here and has the two wheels
2021-12-24T09:44:37 < jpa-> Electrolux EMM20000OW is 70 EUR and the same, just from a more well-known brand
2021-12-24T09:45:31 < Xogium> yeah hmm not even on amazon
2021-12-24T09:45:46 < Xogium> does amazon even ships microwaves :p
2021-12-24T09:46:29 < jpa-> https://www.amazon.de/MW-7862-Microwave-Including-Turntable/dp/B01DWIOM6Y   this has knobs also
2021-12-24T09:48:10 < Xogium> ah this one might do the trick
2021-12-24T09:49:44 < Xogium> microwaves these days are soooo expensive
2021-12-24T09:49:59 < Xogium> not these but like… the last microwave my parents bought in canada was over 300 cad
2021-12-24T09:50:48 < jpa-> some features like infrared heaters and moisture sensor can be quite useful, but i've been happy with just a basic model :)
2021-12-24T09:51:17 < jpa-> and seems a lot of time the expensive microwaves don't even have anything useful, just touchscreen and mobile phone connection and crazy stuff like that
2021-12-24T09:52:02 < Xogium> hah in france it jumps from 70 eur ot 119, thanks VAT
2021-12-24T09:52:48 < Xogium> still… it will probably just do the job
2021-12-24T09:55:35 < Xogium> thanks a bunch :)
2021-12-24T09:56:01 < Xogium> no idea what I blew up in there, but sure isn't pretty…
2021-12-24T09:58:07 < jpa-> heh, taking a quick look at french kitchen appliance stores - you people really seem to love touchscreens and capacitive buttons :)
2021-12-24T09:58:25 < Xogium> yup, I hate that
2021-12-24T09:58:48 < Steffanx> Jpa- is a great microwave/oven cook I heard. When you visit you'll get a wonderful fresh frozen pizza 🍕 
2021-12-24T09:58:55 < Steffanx> Ex-frozen.
2021-12-24T09:59:03 < Xogium> probably was lucky I even found that microwave in a store… With actual buttons that go click
2021-12-24T09:59:25 < Xogium> too bad I blew it up, I actually liked it
2021-12-24T09:59:45 < jpa-> Xogium: here is one from amazon.fr:  https://www.amazon.fr/Four-micro-ondes-combiné-20-l/dp/B08PPWGNG4/
2021-12-24T10:00:19 < jpa-> Steffanx: we don't stock frozen pizza anymore :/
2021-12-24T10:00:46 < Steffanx> Because we're not allowed to visit or... ? 😱
2021-12-24T10:01:05 < Xogium> woah 1100 watts
2021-12-24T10:01:18 < Xogium> huge difference from the 700 watts one :D
2021-12-24T10:02:00 < jpa-> oh, and it has the grill/infrared function also
2021-12-24T10:03:02 < jpa-> Steffanx: parrot got gluten problems so the pizzas didn't get eaten
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2021-12-24T10:55:51 < Steffanx> Oh that sucks jpa- and you gave them up as well?
2021-12-24T10:57:38 < jpa-> not really, but i never was a big fan of frozen pizza to begin with :D
2021-12-24T10:58:47 < jpa-> Steffanx: have you been a good boy this year, getting a lot of presents?
2021-12-24T11:52:55 < Steffanx> No. Xmas is not a time to give presents here in dutchland
2021-12-24T11:53:16 < Steffanx> We celebrate the birth of baby Jesus. 
2021-12-24T11:53:49 < Steffanx> jpa-:  We have Sinterklaas on 5 december. He and black Pete bring us presents
2021-12-24T12:00:40 < Steffanx> Ok, xmas slowly becoming a time to give presents here as well
2021-12-24T12:00:54 < Steffanx> But mainly a time to enjoy a dinner with zhe family
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2021-12-24T12:46:58 < qyx> jpa-: lold
2021-12-24T12:47:46 < qyx> I am glad Steffanx uses qwertz too
2021-12-24T12:54:04 < Steffanx> Ayx: No qwertz, qwerty all the way
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2021-12-24T15:39:13 < benishor> anyone in here did this? https://www.instructables.com/DIY-REFLOW-OVEN/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email
2021-12-24T15:40:17 < jpa-> benishor: i did, though not with so fancy controller but with cheap chinese PID controller
2021-12-24T15:40:38 < jpa-> for me it didn't work well, too much IR and not powerful enough airflow
2021-12-24T15:40:54 < jpa-> a simple hotplate works much better for me, though it limits to one-sided assembly
2021-12-24T15:41:33 < benishor> jpa-: hoe does the hotplate handle multiple assembly sessions?
2021-12-24T15:41:41 < benishor> any cons?
2021-12-24T15:42:01 < jpa-> what do you mean by multiple assembly sessions?
2021-12-24T15:42:16 < benishor> I usually do prototypes and like to mount each submodule in turn
2021-12-24T15:42:31 < benishor> so the board would need to get constantly heated/cooled
2021-12-24T15:42:36 < jpa-> sounds weird, doesn't that expose the parts to unnecessary heating & cooling cycles?
2021-12-24T15:42:38 < benishor> as I mount the next section to be tested
2021-12-24T15:43:08 < benishor> it's for prototyping, not batch manufacturing
2021-12-24T15:43:20 < jpa-> but i have a piece of aluminum that i have the board on, when i lift that off the hotplate it cools down quite quickly
2021-12-24T15:44:08 < jpa-> how do you apply the solder paste for the next sections, doesn't the already assembled parts come into way of the stencil?
2021-12-24T15:46:28 < benishor> I don't use a stencil when prototyping
2021-12-24T15:46:42 < benishor> actually I never used a stencil since I only prototype :D
2021-12-24T15:46:51 < jpa-> hmm, how do you apply solder paste then?
2021-12-24T15:46:55 < benishor> I place solder paste by hand
2021-12-24T15:47:11 < jpa-> i always found syringe application terribly slow & pretty much impossible for 0.5 mm pitch and below
2021-12-24T15:47:50 < benishor> you don't need to be very accurate, convection will take care of it
2021-12-24T15:48:19 < benishor> any possible bridges you can solve by hand afterwards
2021-12-24T15:49:46 < jpa-> ok - i just use a stencil and avoid having bridges in the first place :)
2021-12-24T15:50:16 < jpa-> or if doing one-offs without stencil, i don't use reflow at all
2021-12-24T15:51:13 < benishor> so what do you use? a soldering iron? or a hot air gun?
2021-12-24T15:51:19 < benishor> I would think the first
2021-12-24T15:51:35 < jpa-> soldering iron for anything with pins, hot air gun if there is an exposed pad that needs to be soldered
2021-12-24T15:51:44 < jpa-> though for such boards i would typically use a stencil instead
2021-12-24T15:52:01 < benishor> nice pun :)
2021-12-24T15:52:43 < jpa-> for max77975 i use reflow + iron + hotair + swearing
2021-12-24T15:53:06 < kakium69> jpa-: did you make that control interface for oven too?
2021-12-24T15:54:40 < jpa-> kakium69: no, just the PID controller interface - set to 200°C for preheat, put boards in at some point, set to 250°C, open door and turn it off at some point
2021-12-24T15:55:01 < kakium69> are you vulcanman?
2021-12-24T15:55:22 < jpa-> not the most repeatable but after all it never worked well for me so i don't care for repeating my failures ;)
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2021-12-24T15:55:28 < jpa-> what's a vulcanman?
2021-12-24T15:56:41 < kakium69> ah I misread that you made that instrucable
2021-12-24T15:58:13 < jpa-> ah no, didn't even follow such - converting toaster ovens to reflow ovens is a pretty old thing
2021-12-24T15:59:24 < jpa-> i would also suggest adding a thermostat switch or a thermal fuse - the cheap SSRs usually fail ON, so it would burn down everything eventually
2021-12-24T16:01:03 < jpa-> IMO the biggest problem is that the temperature sensor measures air temperature, but the IR emitted from the heating elements directly heats the PCB and it can get a lot hotter than the sensor indicates
2021-12-24T16:04:32 < kakium69> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKfv6YAt1Co
2021-12-24T17:04:51 < karlp> benishor: for protos that you're assembling bit by bit, I also just use hot air and syringe paste out on parts...
2021-12-24T17:05:35 < karlp> we don't even have an oven, when we've stencile,d it's also just been, "stencil, place, hot air in sections slowlly...."
2021-12-24T17:06:01 < karlp> converted ovens all seemed to have problems like jpa described, so for the amount of protos, just hand hot air is ... acceptable...
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2021-12-24T17:16:26 < karlp> lol, china "reviewed" my pcbs before I could pay for htem, then _actually_ reviewed them after I'd paid for them and asked the questions I'd been expecting...
2021-12-24T17:17:29 < kakium69> typical
2021-12-24T17:18:47 < karlp> t's ok, was waiting for it anyway :)
2021-12-24T17:19:08 < Steffanx> Lol
2021-12-24T17:36:30 < catphish> i should probably look into options for pcb manufacture, since i first used JLC i've never bothered to look elsewhere because they're so convenient
2021-12-24T18:29:39 < karlp> if jlc is meeting your needs, I wouldn't bother looking elsewhere...
2021-12-24T18:29:54 < karlp> they don't hve a super varied lineup, but that's not always required anyway...
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2021-12-24T19:00:02 < catphish> do others do assembly in a similar way, with an easy way to see what parts they can source at reasonable notice? i like the fact that JLC previews everything online too, but i'd definitely want to know if there's alternatives, when they have shortages or issues
2021-12-24T19:01:23 < jpa-> i've had very good reflow success with just a simple cast iron stovetop without any special controller, something like this  https://uae.geepas.com/media/catalog/product/cache/458bb0c1b3b8625d9889d3c5660fbe40/g/h/ghp32013_1.jpg
2021-12-24T19:02:17 < jpa-> i put aluminum plate on top, pcb on top of that; i have a thermocouple connected to my multimeter and turn the stovetop off when it gets close to 250°C or before if the PCB looks "done"
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--- Day changed Sat Dec 25 2021
2021-12-25T00:02:11 < Mangy_Dog> Warning this is going to be a fairly dull rambley video... But Part3 is Up! https://youtu.be/unG4gBGcufY
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2021-12-25T00:31:49 < aandrew> ah jadew is around, ok
2021-12-25T00:42:03 < Steffanx> Is he?
2021-12-25T00:43:02 < Steffanx> 1 hour is a bit too much for me Mangy_Dog  -_-
2021-12-25T00:43:08 < Mangy_Dog> thats ok
2021-12-25T00:43:11 < Mangy_Dog> its not a good video anyway
2021-12-25T00:43:17 < Mangy_Dog> just ranbling going over teh hardware and some software
2021-12-25T00:43:35 < Steffanx> Heh alright 
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2021-12-25T01:06:12 < kakium69> morgon
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2021-12-25T01:19:35 < Jan> does cube ide still suck like an open airlock
2021-12-25T01:19:42 < Jan> I haven't used it since pre pandemic
2021-12-25T02:16:16 < aandrew> I've not used the IDE, ever
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2021-12-25T07:54:05 < Xogium> heya folks
2021-12-25T07:54:57 < Xogium> got the best gift ever :D those gloves that are made in a special material so you can't cut yourself. I can finally use my dangerously sharp ceramic blade knife
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2021-12-25T09:28:52 < jpa-> Xogium: heh, i use safety gloves with sharp knives also and I'm not even blind :)
2021-12-25T09:30:45 < Xogium> jpa-: yeah… Even with regular knife I will now, it's too easy to have the knife go off track and cut your thumb or something
2021-12-25T09:36:00 < jpa-> they also work well with dremel and similar low-power rotary tools - but don't use gloves with high-powered tools, it is better to have a cut than to have it pull your whole finger in
2021-12-25T09:39:15 < Xogium> jpa-: huh huh… Noted. I didn't even think of that mind you but… it makes sense
2021-12-25T09:44:32 < Xogium> oooookay so… am I the only one that finds st a bit weird ? When they designed boards like stm32f769 discovery kit, they put screws all over the place
2021-12-25T09:45:17 < jpa-> you mean the ones next to the display?
2021-12-25T09:45:49 < Xogium> a bunch of screws to hold the lcd capacitive touch screen daughter board on, that I understand. But there are 4 screws that ends with standofs, at least I think they are, one in each corner, as if you could fit the board into a case
2021-12-25T09:46:44 < jpa-> they are to hold the board up, so that when your table is covered in loose pieces of wires they don't short-circuit everything :)
2021-12-25T09:46:53 < Xogium> really ?
2021-12-25T09:46:58 < Xogium> that's… nice
2021-12-25T09:47:14 < jpa-> at least that is the reason i add standoffs in corners of boards :)
2021-12-25T09:47:28 < Xogium> I didn't know it was for that, I mean, it did cross my mind, but, I never thought it was the primary use
2021-12-25T09:47:46 < jpa-> probably also so that it stays steady, as there seems to be parts on the underside also
2021-12-25T09:48:01 < Xogium> yeah lots of chips and stuff
2021-12-25T09:48:27 < Xogium> still, would be rather cool to have an enclosure for it :p
2021-12-25T09:49:15 < Xogium> would look pretty
2021-12-25T09:50:08 < Xogium> I remember when I received the board, I had a friend at my place at the time, and he only saw the touch screen on top and went like, what did you got there, new phone ? Uh… No wait, that's… definitely not a phone, never mind
2021-12-25T09:51:19 < jpa-> it is a phone screen though so i can see why he would think that :)
2021-12-25T09:51:28 < Xogium> true
2021-12-25T09:52:41 < Xogium> I'd probably have gone for the dev kit without that daughter board attached, but its the only one mouser had in stock so I was like, ah well. Never know, might not use as a touchscreen but what if I can display fun text on it
2021-12-25T09:53:37 < jpa-> Xogium: i recently watched documentary about https://fi-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Johan_Venninen?_x_tr_sl=fi&_x_tr_tl=en who was a 80+ year old blind man living alone in a cottage in Finland - it was cool to see him weld stuff and dig a cave, though he had some trouble getting permission to buy dynamite - i imagine you as a bit of similar personality :)
2021-12-25T09:55:19 < Xogium> yeah… I didn't exactly intend for it at first, but seeing the way I was forced to grow up, asking for help litterally became something I just wouldn't do
2021-12-25T09:55:57 < Xogium> and every time I had to, it disgusted me, in part because failing to do something on my own as much as I wanted to, but also because of the reaction of whoever helped
2021-12-25T09:56:39 < Xogium> when they complain with words, its bad enough already but the worse is the almost silent sigh that seems to say, damn it are you stupid
2021-12-25T09:58:02 < jpa-> the microwave thing made me think about how problematic modern devices are becoming - pretty much everything has moved to capacitive buttons and touchscreens
2021-12-25T09:58:11 < Xogium> yup
2021-12-25T09:58:46 < jpa-> and i must say they are mildly annoying for sighted people also
2021-12-25T09:58:58 < Xogium> I'm lucky my stove is still having real buttons, only problem is positioning the pan on it or whatever
2021-12-25T09:59:08 < jpa-> i have to press our washing machine buttons multiple times because you never know when it detects and when not
2021-12-25T09:59:24 < Xogium> its not physical, er… I don't know the word for these, the round-shaped thing you put the pans on
2021-12-25T09:59:38 < jpa-> is it induction stove? i could imagine that could be good as the surface does not heat up
2021-12-25T09:59:43 < Xogium> its smooth as glass
2021-12-25T09:59:53 < Xogium> nop its electric
2021-12-25T10:00:41 < Xogium> but I so don't like cooling
2021-12-25T10:01:24 < Xogium> it's full of problems no matter how you try to work around some. Like, you guys can just look at stuff most of the time to see if its ready, but obviously I can't
2021-12-25T10:01:34 < Xogium> and turning stuff over is a nightmare
2021-12-25T10:01:44 < Xogium> er cooking sorry lol
2021-12-25T10:03:24 < jpa-> i can imagine
2021-12-25T10:03:40 < Xogium> and one of the worst things is having to pour out nearly boiling water after you make pasta or something
2021-12-25T10:04:22 < jpa-> do you use specialized devices like rice cooker or air fryer?
2021-12-25T10:06:21 < Xogium> if you don't get the twist of your wrist just right… ugh. Which just happens to be a move I struggle to do, reduce motor skills in hands be damned. Oh and the stress that the knowledge you're holding a damn hot thing filled with scorching hot water that could spill easily, that makes your entire harm shake
2021-12-25T10:06:41 < Xogium> nop those  are mostly all touch screens, least the ones I found…
2021-12-25T10:07:03 < jpa-> yeah, the airfryer we have is all capacitive touch on smooth surface also
2021-12-25T10:07:38 < Xogium> not to mention that even if they were not, they'd probably just beep at me or print stuff on screen I'm supposed to follow but couldn't
2021-12-25T10:07:40 < jpa-> otherwise it is pretty nice because the powerful fan means it cooks quite evenly without stirring and only need to set the timer
2021-12-25T10:08:47 < jpa-> hmm.. many appliances nowadays are getting useless smartphone connections - if only they would open up the protocols, you could control it from computer
2021-12-25T10:09:46 < Xogium> yeah
2021-12-25T10:16:11 < Xogium> so yeah… cooking for me is stressful every time, and I'm honestly considering stopping it
2021-12-25T10:16:50 < Xogium> as much as I want to be on my own, cooking makes me too nervous, and it actually starts to show, my hair are turning white in entire bunch
2021-12-25T10:18:14 < Xogium> it's not much worth it if it gets my health worse is it ?
2021-12-25T10:18:28 < jpa-> there are plenty of sighted people who don't cook apart from microwaving stuff
2021-12-25T10:19:48 < Xogium> I mean… I'm not entirely useless in the kitchen especially now with the safety gloves… but yeah, can't help but flinch away every time the cooking food makes some noise louder than the rest, flinch at the heat
2021-12-25T10:25:38 < jpa-> https://www.amazon.fr/Reishunger-fonction-r%C3%A9cipient-int%C3%A9rieur-sup%C3%A9rieure/dp/B0156PTDZ6   Here is a basic mechanical rice cooker. You need to measure the amount of rice and water in. Then turn the mechanical switch to on, and it will turn automatically off when the rice has absorbed all the water.
2021-12-25T10:26:02 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-25T10:26:13 < jpa-> but it only makes rice - a single purpose device
2021-12-25T10:26:29 < Xogium> its still something I could get away with, I guess
2021-12-25T10:26:39 < Xogium> but then how do you get it out of there ?
2021-12-25T10:27:55 < jpa-> It has a cover you open and then it looks like regular pot. It is hot inside of course, but usually you just spoon it out of there directly to plate.
2021-12-25T10:28:58 < Xogium> nice
2021-12-25T10:29:02 < Xogium> I like the idea
2021-12-25T10:29:37 < jpa-> the way it works is that there is a thermostat that detects when temperature goes over 100 celsius - which means there is no more liquid water
2021-12-25T10:30:24 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-25T10:30:52 < Xogium> but wait, water starts to boil at 100, doesn't mean there's no liquid yet does it ?
2021-12-25T10:31:17 < jpa-> temperature stays at 100 until all water has boiled off
2021-12-25T10:31:25 < jpa-> because the water boiling takes up the heat
2021-12-25T10:31:48 < jpa-> the video shows also steaming vegetables there - i guess it works for that also
2021-12-25T10:32:54 < Xogium> oh
2021-12-25T10:32:58 < Xogium> makes sense
2021-12-25T10:33:33 < Xogium> yeah but wouldn't work for other sort of pasta for example
2021-12-25T10:33:52 < Xogium> still who doesn't like a good helping of rice with a bunch of vegetables thrown in
2021-12-25T10:33:55 < jpa-> yeah, does not work for pasta
2021-12-25T10:34:21 < jpa-> i think it might work with potatoes, though they usually require longer cooking than other vegetables
2021-12-25T10:35:36 < Xogium> maybe if its tiny cubes ? Hmm
2021-12-25T10:35:49 < jpa-> it is also a bit slower than normal stove, like 15 minutes vs. 30 minutes - i think the heater is lower power to avoid burning food
2021-12-25T10:35:59 < Xogium> yeah that makes sense
2021-12-25T10:39:30 < jpa-> hmm, google gives recipes about "pasta in rice cooker" also
2021-12-25T10:40:11 < jpa-> i've never heard about that before, but i've only used a rice cooker once anyway
2021-12-25T10:40:26 < Xogium> that sounds weird given how they work…
2021-12-25T10:42:42 < jpa-> looks like they are using it more like a regular pot, putting enough water in to cover the paste
2021-12-25T10:43:23 < Xogium> oh… but then wouldn't it keep functioning until there's no water left ?
2021-12-25T10:43:28 < jpa-> all of the water does not seem to get absorbed but with a scoop with holes you can take the pasta out
2021-12-25T10:43:58 < jpa-> yeah, it wouldn't turn off automatically, they turn it off using the switch after the pasta is ready
2021-12-25T10:44:07 < Xogium> ah yeah
2021-12-25T10:44:40 < jpa-> i guess it would still have some benefits for you, no placing the pot on the stove and because the outside of the cooker has some insulation it does not get too hot
2021-12-25T10:45:01 < Xogium> yeah, what I was thinking
2021-12-25T10:46:39 < jpa-> The mechanical switch has three positions: you push it down to start cooking, when done it switches automatically to middle position which is small amount of heat to keep warm, and pushing it up turns off.
2021-12-25T10:47:03 < Xogium> coolness
2021-12-25T10:47:18 < Xogium> yeah I think I'll get one of these
2021-12-25T10:48:20 < jpa-> the design has been the same since 1950s - fortunately they still make the classic models :)
2021-12-25T10:48:34 < Xogium> yeah, lucky me
2021-12-25T10:50:15 < jpa-> it does need the correct ration of rice and water, but i guess you have ways to measure
2021-12-25T10:50:44 < jpa-> water is basically the timer
2021-12-25T10:50:58 < Xogium> its just hard to search for that sort of stuff on my own :p frankly, I could probably spend hours browsing on amazon or such, and not find one single thing that isn't using touchscreens or capacitive buttons or some such
2021-12-25T10:51:34 < jpa-> yeah, that information is only in the photo :)
2021-12-25T10:52:03 < Xogium> yeah I have separate cups for different measures like, one full cup, 3/4 of a cup, half, quarter
2021-12-25T10:52:17 < Xogium> same for spoons
2021-12-25T10:54:44 < jpa-> here is also an airfryer with knobs: one for time and one for temperature: https://www.amazon.fr/Friteuse-Tristar-FR-6989-Crispy-Fryer/dp/B072N2RXYR/
2021-12-25T10:55:05 < jpa-> it can be used to cook stuff you would do in oven, like fries or meat
2021-12-25T10:55:44 < jpa-> there is a handle on the front that you pull and then the pot comes out
2021-12-25T10:56:08 < jpa-> you put food in the pot, set temperature and time and it has powerful fan that blows air around the inside
2021-12-25T10:57:15 < jpa-> when it is done you pull out the pot - the pot is metal and hot, you need spatulas or spoon to get the food out of it
2021-12-25T10:57:56 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-25T10:58:06 < Xogium> I uh hope the dials are notched
2021-12-25T10:58:19 < Xogium> because if they are not it will be a real pain to target correct temperature
2021-12-25T10:58:48 < jpa-> they seem to have a small dot indicator
2021-12-25T10:59:07 < jpa-> so at least they are not encoder based that spin around, but you may need to put some larger mark on there
2021-12-25T10:59:24 < Xogium> oh yeah the infinite spinning dials
2021-12-25T10:59:31 < Xogium> those are awefull
2021-12-25T11:02:06 < jpa-> based on video looks like there is no detents on the temperature dial, it is just a smooth potentiometer setting
2021-12-25T11:05:18 < Xogium> damn
2021-12-25T11:07:00 < jpa-> it is half a turn from 80°C to 200°C - i guess most foods you can cook at 200°C or a bit less
2021-12-25T11:07:25 < jpa-> turning to maximum should be easy at least
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2021-12-25T12:43:32 < catphish> Merry Christmas!
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2021-12-25T13:11:07 < Steffanx> Something like that to you mr catphish
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2021-12-25T15:41:21 < Mangy_Dog> Merry Christmas one and all
2021-12-25T15:41:53 < PaulFertser> Do many celebrate it even not being christians?
2021-12-25T15:45:12 < Mangy_Dog> im not really christian
2021-12-25T15:45:21 < Mangy_Dog> more tradition than anything i think
2021-12-25T15:45:31 < Mangy_Dog> though the UK is still a very christian country
2021-12-25T15:50:51 < PaulFertser> I want to congratulate everybody with James Webb launch.
2021-12-25T15:54:13 < fenugrec> thanks
2021-12-25T15:56:27 < Xogium> what's that ?
2021-12-25T15:56:41 < fenugrec> it's sortof hubble v2
2021-12-25T15:57:55 < fenugrec> it's ~\3x farther out than hubble; I wonder if it would still be in reach for eventual service / upgrades
2021-12-25T15:59:28 < englishman> it's pretty far out. further than any human has gone.
2021-12-25T16:01:11 < englishman> also i think it's more like 3000 times further out than hubble.
2021-12-25T16:01:43 < fenugrec> yes I think I forgot a few orders a magnitude
2021-12-25T16:01:51 < englishman> it's only zeroes
2021-12-25T16:01:55 < fenugrec> ok then. I hope they got everything right the first time
2021-12-25T16:02:30 < fenugrec> none of this "the optics aren't lined up, can we go tweak them pls"
2021-12-25T16:03:30 < PaulFertser> :D
2021-12-25T16:04:14 < PaulFertser> Yes, when I heard about L2 point I thought of those hubble repair/servicing missions too.
2021-12-25T16:08:31 < bitmask> not there yet, but glTF loader in the works https://i.imgur.com/L2KuxAX.png
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2021-12-25T18:03:25 < Steffanx> PaulFertser: it's not the modern santa has much to do with being Christian
2021-12-25T18:03:32 < Steffanx> That the*
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2021-12-25T20:31:59 < kakium69> PaulFertser: does ortodox Russia have christmas in any similar sense than in west?
2021-12-25T20:32:38 < kakium69> what I have gathered it's not big thing but new year is big thing
2021-12-25T20:36:28 < kakium69> waas
2021-12-25T20:37:07 < PaulFertser> kakium69: first of all, russian traditional orthodox christians stick to Julian calendar so they celebrate it on the 7th Jan (while continuing to officially call it 25th Dec). Before that they're supposed to be fasting but the 31st Dec -- 1st Jan night is usually widely celebrated (a soviet tradition) so I have no idea how they can combine that. 
2021-12-25T20:37:32 < kakium69> also "santa" visits kids then
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2021-12-25T20:38:05 < kakium69> or translated to english it's something like frost dude
2021-12-25T20:38:15 < PaulFertser> Santa visits children wherever the parents pay the actor
2021-12-25T20:39:32 < PaulFertser> I think in most families the children get at least some presents by the end of 31st, and probably some more if a "santa" visit is arranged.
2021-12-25T20:40:13 < PaulFertser> kakium69: the russian dude is like a "grandfather frost" usually.
2021-12-25T20:42:12 < PaulFertser> kakium69: I have to admit I do not know much about how religious people celebrate christmas other than going to church or watching it live on TV and having some celebratory meal.
2021-12-25T20:44:46 < PaulFertser> Steffanx: so is it common for people to celebrate it at all in NL? In Russia most people are trying to gather on the 31st and drink "soviet champagne" and fire some fireworks during the night. And I guess they often watch some concerts on TV.
2021-12-25T20:47:01 < PaulFertser> 1st Jan morning is usually very quite, as most people are sleeping after spending the night celebrating afaict.
2021-12-25T20:47:06 < PaulFertser> quiet
2021-12-25T20:49:01 < kakium69> how about PaulFertser?
2021-12-25T20:50:29 < PaulFertser> kakium69: when I was a university student/teacher I was sometimes spending that night with my uni friends. But those days are long gone, so now it's just a normal day for me, other than the stupid fireworks explosions.
2021-12-25T20:51:43 < Xogium> hmm. Canada is usually mostly celebrating christmas, but at least amerindians don't unless they have been converted to being christian. I find christmas a bit weird, why would you give gifts only at that time and no others, what's up with all this food ? But I respect other traditions
2021-12-25T20:52:18 < Xogium> like… I don't mind even when I receive gifts from others… even if its still all a bit puzzling
2021-12-25T20:53:03  * PaulFertser wonders if celebrating christmas not being a true believer can be considered to be a form of "cultural appropriation" and thus extremely disrespectful
2021-12-25T20:53:18 < kakium69> no no
2021-12-25T20:54:15 < kakium69> church just slapped that thing on regional mid winter festivities
2021-12-25T20:55:29 < PaulFertser> I would prefer to celebrate James Webb launch if I had a suitable company.
2021-12-25T20:56:00 < kakium69> you need to go to roscosmos hq
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2021-12-25T21:04:10 < BrainDamage> cultural appropriation is bullshit
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2021-12-25T21:07:03 < kakium69> indeed
2021-12-25T21:07:55 < BrainDamage> culture is created by a mix of copy  and innovation
2021-12-25T21:13:33 < PaulFertser> Do you mean the concept itself is a simulacrum? Or does it really exist but people shouldn't be offended?
2021-12-25T21:14:13 < BrainDamage> the latter
2021-12-25T21:16:06 < BrainDamage> harvest festival become xmas, yet people still hang lights on trees that once meant multiple deities to thank
2021-12-25T21:16:27 < BrainDamage> the meaning is what you give
2021-12-25T21:16:49 < PaulFertser> btw, talking about orthodox christians and offence. You remember "pussy riot"? Their song had a line "<the head of Orthodox Church> believes in Putin. Would be better if the arsehole believed in God." Was offensive enough for 2 years prison time.
2021-12-25T21:17:17 < kakium69> in here christmas has still it's pagan name
2021-12-25T21:18:03 < kakium69> it's a pagan-christian-commercial festivity
2021-12-25T21:18:49 < BrainDamage> people need an excuse to throw a party and socialize every now and then
2021-12-25T21:19:07 < BrainDamage> the name and excuse is not even important
2021-12-25T21:19:51 < BrainDamage> what I digest little is people who impose the custom
2021-12-25T21:20:07 < BrainDamage> 'oh, it's xmas so you must do x'
2021-12-25T21:21:16 < PaulFertser> Do you celebrate your "birthday" BrainDamage ?
2021-12-25T21:21:43 < BrainDamage> i used to, now I don't feel like anymore
2021-12-25T21:22:01 < BrainDamage> I may change my mind in the future again, because why not
2021-12-25T21:22:22 < PaulFertser> Why stick to any particular date to do something you want?
2021-12-25T21:22:41 < BrainDamage> it's convenient for others
2021-12-25T21:22:44 < kakium69> social customs need a date
2021-12-25T21:23:10 < BrainDamage> organizing things is always a mess, so having a fixed date makes things smoother
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2021-12-25T21:25:59 < PaulFertser> But you can declare any date if you do it in advance I guess.
2021-12-25T21:26:10 < BrainDamage> indeed
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2021-12-25T21:37:11 < kakium69> you also need union to declare the day as free day
2021-12-25T21:37:25 < kakium69> or powerful institution
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2021-12-25T21:59:37 < catphish> anyone know much about T962 reflow ovens? is there a standard way to make them good?
2021-12-25T22:02:18 < catphish> i guess just everything here https://github.com/UnifiedEngineering/T-962-improvements
2021-12-25T22:02:36 < kakium69> I think if you google "t962 hacks" or "t962 mods"
2021-12-25T22:02:45 < kakium69> you'll be good
2021-12-25T22:03:22 < kakium69> my T-something has a plug with earth
2021-12-25T22:03:32 < kakium69> it's a hot air blower
2021-12-25T22:03:54 < kakium69> but for sure the chassis or the heat gun part are not connected to that earth :P
2021-12-25T22:04:17 < kakium69> heat gun part even having 20volts VAC in it's metal parts
2021-12-25T22:04:26 < kakium69> 20VAC
2021-12-25T22:04:28 < kakium69> *
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2021-12-25T22:16:23 < catphish> just read up on the ovens, looks like a new firmware and some small hardware improvements
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2021-12-25T23:13:35 < kakium69> just realized
2021-12-25T23:14:47 < kakium69> I got feet warmer things as gift
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2021-12-25T23:27:57 < catphish> ideal!
2021-12-25T23:31:54 < kakium69> building up feet temperature now
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2021-12-25T23:38:00 < kakium69> I wonder if there is some coupling mechanism that couples temperature of feet to temperature of hands
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2021-12-25T23:40:04 < BrainDamage> i know the body can cut circulation to limbs in case of low temp, but not sure if it distinguishes between them or not
2021-12-25T23:43:36 < PaulFertser> And so heating up the chest a bit makes hands and feet warmer.
2021-12-25T23:45:57 < kakium69> I have cold hands and feet
2021-12-25T23:46:03 < kakium69> usually both at same time
2021-12-25T23:46:34 < kakium69> I think it's just symmetrical restriction of circulation
2021-12-25T23:47:22 < kakium69> weird thing it's not that cold inside but maybe it's the cold shock from outside
2021-12-25T23:48:12 < kakium69> if you let it "go into bones" then energy conservative mode is activated
2021-12-25T23:50:08 < kakium69> sauna is the bestest then
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--- Day changed Sun Dec 26 2021
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2021-12-26T00:42:04 < kakium69> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnMt3yEkfuQ subwoofer songs from 90s
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2021-12-26T01:27:13 < fenugrec> heh, AD has a nice 404 page https://www.analog.com/error/400.gif
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2021-12-26T02:46:48 < kakium69> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuD7XSk4vjw Gordon, Gino and Fred do crazy lapland trip
2021-12-26T02:48:34 < kakium69> they have sort of chemistry that reminds me of Clarkson, Hammond and May
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2021-12-26T03:46:38 < bitmask> https://futurism.com/scientists-claim-quantum-entangle-animal
2021-12-26T04:00:24 < kakium69> scientist doing weird scifi stuff?
2021-12-26T04:00:36 < kakium69> scientists*
2021-12-26T04:09:47 < bitmask> sounds like bad science to me
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2021-12-26T16:20:34 < Steffanx> ventYl, what did you use with nimble again? Im already quite done with all this newt commandline shit -_-
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2021-12-26T17:32:23 < Steffanx> All this stuff with magic bootloaders, split images, too complicated scripts. i just want to develop some simple ble device.
2021-12-26T17:38:27 < Steffanx> oh it is possible to skip the bootloader part, something burried far far away
2021-12-26T17:42:47 < PaulFertser> 17:58 < ventYl> hope to mate my RTOS with nRF opencm3 fork and port nimble on top of that
2021-12-26T17:42:53 < PaulFertser> 00:08 < ventYl> infinitime is freertos + nrf sdk + nimble + custom application
2021-12-26T17:47:09 < Steffanx> ah there was that indeed
2021-12-26T17:52:33 < Steffanx> Ill try the "single mode" first, but it seems to be highly undocumented. It just mentions it supports it and there is some mailing archive post about it -_-
2021-12-26T17:53:20 < Steffanx> "Mynewt doesn't offer any "direct" support for the single image setup, but I believe it is still possible to use (it definitely used to work)." 
2021-12-26T17:53:21 < Steffanx> oh great.
2021-12-26T17:59:29 < fenugrec> lol. dk search table : clicking "exclude marketplace products" does exactly nothing
2021-12-26T17:59:29 < qyx> what is single image
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2021-12-26T18:02:16 < Steffanx> qyx:  https://mynewt.apache.org/latest/os/modules/split/split.html this. Trying to get that up and running without the bootloader.
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2021-12-26T18:22:13 < Steffanx> but anyway, it runs. With BLE activity.
2021-12-26T18:25:12 < mawk> bleblebleblebleble
2021-12-26T18:25:21 < mawk> fijne kerstdagen Steffanx 
2021-12-26T18:42:50 < Steffanx> U ook nog. Deze tweede kerstdag mr mawk
2021-12-26T18:53:56 < mawk> het tweede dag was gisteren kn rankrijkqp
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2021-12-26T19:08:17 < Steffanx> Yeah something like that mawk
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2021-12-26T19:13:55 < mawk> frankrijk
2021-12-26T19:14:57 < mawk> ik wil een grote lekkere worst Steffann 
2021-12-26T19:15:10 < mawk> met fijne mosterd
2021-12-26T19:15:17 < mawk> en aardappelpurée
2021-12-26T19:21:16 < Steffann> Just aardappelpuree mawk?
2021-12-26T19:21:56 < mawk> en jus
2021-12-26T19:22:05 < mawk> tasty justje
2021-12-26T19:24:23 < Steffann> No vegetables?
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2021-12-26T19:30:09 < mawk> no
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2021-12-26T19:33:59 < Steffanx> hm
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2021-12-26T21:02:28 < ventYl> Steffanx: pinetime has it integrated into freertos
2021-12-26T21:05:58 < Xogium> oh, hello ventYl :) was concerned your dd went bad :p
2021-12-26T21:06:23 < kakium69> what did he dd?
2021-12-26T21:06:41 < ventYl> Xogium: nope, I just fell into eat - sleep cycle
2021-12-26T21:06:45 < ventYl> for a few days
2021-12-26T21:06:45 < Xogium> hehe
2021-12-26T21:06:55 < Xogium> alright
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2021-12-26T21:47:53 < Steffanx> Laurenceb_ :O :O :O :O
2021-12-26T21:48:14 < Steffanx> Almost thought you died from serious covid
2021-12-26T21:50:23 < kakium69> tf lurence
2021-12-26T21:52:46 < kakium69> share wisdom plz
2021-12-26T22:00:14 < kakium69> Steffanx: I don't think that is lurence but a plant by some 3-letter agency.
2021-12-26T22:00:52 < kakium69> if he real he would had said something funny by now
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2021-12-26T22:05:41 < PaulFertser> kakium69: s/funny/unfunny/
2021-12-26T22:10:03 < Steffanx> lol PaulFertser
2021-12-26T22:20:08 < kakium69> Laurenceb_: sup
2021-12-26T22:23:55 < Steffanx> kakium69, do you like Bruce. Willis?
2021-12-26T22:24:08 < kakium69> sure
2021-12-26T22:24:13 < Steffanx> You should watch his latest movie: Apex.
2021-12-26T22:24:19 < kakium69> you watching the christmas movie?
2021-12-26T22:24:50 < Steffanx> https://www.imdb.com/title/tt13265876/ 3.1/10 :D :D
2021-12-26T22:25:27 < kakium69> yeah pass
2021-12-26T22:25:44 < kakium69> I mainly watch movies having 3.5/10
2021-12-26T22:26:40 < Steffanx> New matrix movie is 5.8.. i wouldnt even watch it with such score.
2021-12-26T22:27:15 < kakium69> thats too high for my taste
2021-12-26T22:27:26 < kakium69> here is movie for you steff https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/die_hard
2021-12-26T22:27:39 < kakium69> it's the christmas movie
2021-12-26T22:27:52 < Steffanx> Yeah no
2021-12-26T22:27:57 < Steffanx> i dont like diehard.
2021-12-26T22:31:07 < Steffanx> Time to watch Jimmy Carr on netflix instead
2021-12-26T22:31:47 < kakium69> no
2021-12-26T22:36:02 < Steffanx> Yes
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2021-12-26T22:39:10 < Laurenceb_> Hi all, Happy Christmas
2021-12-26T22:39:20 < Laurenceb_> I see I was missed
2021-12-26T22:39:26  * Laurenceb_ was working on Hyperloop
2021-12-26T22:40:21 < Steffanx> And concluded its an epic failure?
2021-12-26T22:40:28 < Steffanx> So you joined ##stm32 ?
2021-12-26T22:41:35 < kakium69> Laurenceb_: hows projects?
2021-12-26T22:41:58 < Laurenceb_> lots of hyperloop work
2021-12-26T22:42:11 < Laurenceb_> making 1MW wheel/motor
2021-12-26T22:42:30 < kakium69> mm..
2021-12-26T22:42:33 < Laurenceb_> hypermanager insists it should use simulink
2021-12-26T22:42:57 < Laurenceb_> so we are using wolfspeed modules with Ti processor
2021-12-26T22:43:15 < Laurenceb_> its good because Tesla uses it apparently...
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2021-12-26T22:44:00 < kakium69> do you have bespoke motors?
2021-12-26T22:45:03 < Laurenceb_> yes
2021-12-26T22:45:12 < Laurenceb_> the wheel and motor is one single part
2021-12-26T22:45:24 < kakium69> ah
2021-12-26T22:45:27 < BrainDamage> hub motor
2021-12-26T22:45:41 < kakium69> cool cool
2021-12-26T22:45:47 < kakium69> how about cooling?
2021-12-26T22:46:00 < BrainDamage> how are you going to supply it?
2021-12-26T22:46:13 < Laurenceb_> its water cooled
2021-12-26T22:46:15 < BrainDamage> the whole train
2021-12-26T22:46:21 < kakium69> ^
2021-12-26T22:46:29 < Laurenceb_> its supplied from a few kV DC that comes via the rails
2021-12-26T22:46:44 < Laurenceb_> one rail +2kV the other -2kV
2021-12-26T22:47:00 < kakium69> interestings
2021-12-26T22:47:33 < BrainDamage> why symmetric? to make onboard electronics simpler?
2021-12-26T22:47:34 < Laurenceb_> there is a lithium iron phosphate battery so it can run for a few miles on normal rail tracks
2021-12-26T22:47:38 < Laurenceb_> yeah
2021-12-26T22:48:18 < kakium69> does it go to vacuum tube
2021-12-26T22:48:22 < Laurenceb_> yes
2021-12-26T22:48:36 < Laurenceb_> but now we have a side project to put the same thing on the Avril
2021-12-26T22:48:36 < kakium69> how is the train cooled?
2021-12-26T22:48:43 < Laurenceb_> IR radiator
2021-12-26T22:48:49 < kakium69> how big?
2021-12-26T22:48:56 < Laurenceb_> about 1.5x4m
2021-12-26T22:49:26 < kakium69> temperature?
2021-12-26T22:49:35 < Laurenceb_> about 135C
2021-12-26T22:50:01 < BrainDamage> you're going to have a limit on trains freq too, since the tunnel's going to have issues redistributing heat
2021-12-26T22:50:23 < Laurenceb_> yeah
2021-12-26T22:50:29 < kakium69> really?
2021-12-26T22:51:05 < Laurenceb_> if its reinforced concrete yeah, maybe not steel
2021-12-26T22:51:27 < BrainDamage> several MW spot heating absorbed by the tunnel walls and no convection
2021-12-26T22:51:51 < BrainDamage> it means it's only going to cool to outside soil/rock
2021-12-26T22:52:05 < kakium69> yeah
2021-12-26T22:52:12 < Laurenceb_> atm our firmware fails at about 5mph lmao
2021-12-26T22:52:14 < BrainDamage> which means through a thick layer of concrete
2021-12-26T22:52:20 < kakium69> stone house is warm too if you make it thick enough
2021-12-26T22:52:40 < Laurenceb_> simulink spi driver is a disaster zone
2021-12-26T22:53:00 < Laurenceb_> literally arduino style busy loops everywhere
2021-12-26T22:53:14 < BrainDamage> what exactly simulink gains you here
2021-12-26T22:53:22 < BrainDamage> hw abstraction?
2021-12-26T22:53:32 < Laurenceb_> and it uses cooperative multitasking so the busy loops kill everything else
2021-12-26T22:53:37 < BrainDamage> for a complete mess of platform to work on
2021-12-26T22:53:48 < Laurenceb_> yeah, that and the fact the other guys have always used it for everything
2021-12-26T22:54:26 < kakium69> it's how it goes nowdays
2021-12-26T22:54:38 < Laurenceb_> about 5mph the spi busy loops overrun and kill the commutation 
2021-12-26T22:55:06 < kakium69> could you just fire your boss
2021-12-26T22:55:17 < Laurenceb_> heh
2021-12-26T22:55:24 < Laurenceb_> atm we are just working on the Avril
2021-12-26T22:55:33 < BrainDamage> just upgrade to higher clock speed
2021-12-26T22:55:37 < Laurenceb_> lol
2021-12-26T22:55:45 < ventYl> that sounds like generic automotive morons
2021-12-26T22:56:05 < BrainDamage> 100x clock speed and you'll be able to call it done
2021-12-26T22:56:13 < Laurenceb_> heh yeah they are mostly auto guys
2021-12-26T22:56:33 < kakium69> what freq you are at now?
2021-12-26T22:56:45 < Laurenceb_> 90MHz
2021-12-26T22:57:46 < ventYl> Laurenceb_: you shall approach them as I did. I told my boss, that every day he wakes up, he should tell himself: today, I am gonna fuck up something tremendeously. As I did yesterday. That's my mission in this company
2021-12-26T22:58:15 < ventYl> they'll either hate you or get their shit together
2021-12-26T22:58:37 < ventYl> former is more probable. although, after 8 months I left automotive they were trying to hire me back
2021-12-26T22:58:37 < Laurenceb_> lmao
2021-12-26T22:59:31 < ventYl> this may look like very cruel, but in fact, they are living in box and think, that what they do is alright
2021-12-26T22:59:41 < ventYl> they did it this way since forever and it always worked
2021-12-26T23:00:31 < kakium69> what are the alternatives for simulink?
2021-12-26T23:00:41 < ventYl> there are no alternatives
2021-12-26T23:00:48 < ventYl> if you use simulink, you do it wrong
2021-12-26T23:00:55 < kakium69> ah
2021-12-26T23:01:27 < kakium69> I see many job applications with simulink mentioned
2021-12-26T23:01:31 < Laurenceb_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talgo_AVRIL currently putting the wheels on one of these
2021-12-26T23:01:37 < ventYl> like, it is ok to let it convert some complicated signal processing into C if you really need to catch all transitive effects and corner cases
2021-12-26T23:02:03 < ventYl> but when you try to do general purpose programming using it, it sucks quite fast
2021-12-26T23:02:14 < ventYl> like, i've seen SBC driver written in simulink, which cas FUBAR
2021-12-26T23:03:09 < Laurenceb_> yeah it has some uses
2021-12-26T23:03:21 < Laurenceb_> but its no good for general purpose programming
2021-12-26T23:06:39 < BrainDamage> you could use to create a specific routine inside a larger program
2021-12-26T23:07:07 < BrainDamage> but as standalone programming platform it's just horrible
2021-12-26T23:07:18 < ventYl> ideally, but in order to do that vast majority of automotive SW developer couldn't be morons
2021-12-26T23:16:50 < ventYl> and also dSpace is making things worse by adding support for autosar into targetlink
2021-12-26T23:17:37 < ventYl> because then your moronic automotive coworker can say wheeeee we will wrap this pile of dried camel shit into another layer of dried camel shit and get complete software component
2021-12-26T23:17:52 < ventYl> who cares that resulting binary has 200 kB
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2021-12-26T23:25:47 -!- ferdna [~ferdna@user/ferdna] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
2021-12-26T23:27:05 < qyx> is dried camel shit that bad
2021-12-26T23:28:00 < ventYl> only worse thing is if you do programming in labview
2021-12-26T23:30:01 < BrainDamage> for my bachelor thesis I had to use labview, the instrumentation that had builtin modules worked ok-ish, then there was a cam for which there was just a dll and a c api, i had to load it in labview
2021-12-26T23:30:19 < BrainDamage> i wanted to burn the whole thing
2021-12-26T23:31:34 < ventYl> arsenal of such shitty SW is suprisingly large
2021-12-26T23:31:54 < ventYl> I wanted to burne whole rational sub-organization of IBM
2021-12-26T23:32:00 < ventYl> burn*
2021-12-26T23:35:03 < kakium69> isn't that the EE study in the university
2021-12-26T23:35:09 < kakium69> to learn labview
2021-12-26T23:37:50 < Steffanx> i had to write a dll for lv once, im still surprised how shitty it is
2021-12-26T23:38:11 < Steffanx> and i was more surprised by how easy it is to crash labview with a bug in your dll
2021-12-26T23:39:45 < ventYl> that's no surprise
2021-12-26T23:40:12 < ventYl> as it shares address space and everything, so if you make a mistake with memory processing, [end is near]
2021-12-26T23:42:47 < Steffanx> Yeah, I was surprised by that. Assumed it would be sandboxed or something 
2021-12-26T23:43:10 < ventYl> labview was probably written sometime in '90s and never heard of any sandboxing
2021-12-26T23:44:19 < ventYl> some of our tools looked like a fresh port of windows 3.1 software to windows 95
2021-12-26T23:58:19 < englishman> sandboxing in the scientific world means literally buying a computer and burying it in sand (it is in the budget)
--- Day changed Mon Dec 27 2021
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2021-12-27T02:20:03 < karlp> wow 3.1 imdb is low enough to be almost watchable again..
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2021-12-27T19:20:43 < jadew> Steffanx, yes I am
2021-12-27T19:24:23 < Steffanx> Are you sure jadew?
2021-12-27T19:24:50 < jadew> I'm here now
2021-12-27T19:25:14 < Steffanx> 2 days late
2021-12-27T19:25:47 < jadew> busy being Santa
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2021-12-27T20:29:00 < karlp> hrm, note from the post office, looks like my power supply has arrived.
2021-12-27T20:29:10 < karlp> Ill get to assemble this rd6012p over the break afterall!
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2021-12-27T22:21:34 < Laurenceb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_Waller-Bridge
2021-12-27T22:21:46 < Laurenceb> >The Waller-Bridge family were landed gentry of Cuckfield
2021-12-27T22:21:50 < Laurenceb> memetic
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2021-12-27T22:41:57 < mawk> wow Laurenceb is back here
2021-12-27T22:43:24 < Laurenceb> https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=facebook
2021-12-27T22:43:29 < Laurenceb> faceberg is over
2021-12-27T22:44:01 < Laurenceb> https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=facebook,myspace
2021-12-27T22:44:34 < mawk> don't get banned again
2021-12-27T22:44:37 < mawk> we like you here
2021-12-27T22:46:42 < Laurenceb> k
2021-12-27T22:47:05 < Laurenceb> >Faceberg is now as popular as myspace was before faceberg stole their users
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2021-12-27T22:47:25 < Laurenceb> truly epic fail
2021-12-27T22:47:45 < Laurenceb> at least myspace tom is a pretty cool guy
2021-12-27T22:47:47 < englishman> since when did myspace make 50 billion dollars a year
2021-12-27T22:48:38 < Laurenceb> >implying the zuck can keep it up
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2021-12-27T22:49:43 < englishman> im seeing 17% yoy income growth
2021-12-27T22:50:32 < englishman> meanwhile daily actives grew 6% so there is also more income per user
2021-12-27T22:51:27 < Laurenceb> englishman is Mark Zuckerberg confirmed
2021-12-27T22:51:37 < englishman> welcome back Laurenceb 
2021-12-27T22:52:11 < Laurenceb> thankyou
2021-12-27T22:52:18 < Laurenceb> Faceberg is myspace 2.0
2021-12-27T22:52:23 < englishman> how is the roccoon
2021-12-27T22:52:37 < englishman> will it be able to land and be reused
2021-12-27T22:52:48 < Laurenceb> working on muh Avril now
2021-12-27T22:53:06 < englishman> go on
2021-12-27T22:54:24 < englishman> did you find another existing and profitable technology that you determined is a 'hoax' that you can 'get right' if only you do enough simulations
2021-12-27T22:54:57 < Laurenceb> https://www.railway-technology.com/projects/talgo-avril-high-speed-trains/
2021-12-27T22:56:32 < Laurenceb> it will have hyperloop wheels
2021-12-27T22:56:40 < englishman> what are you working on
2021-12-27T22:56:47 < englishman> the high speed poop chutes?
2021-12-27T22:57:14 < englishman> 600 passengers needs a lot of poop planning
2021-12-27T22:57:47 < englishman> at 200mph traditional poop jettisons can be deadly
2021-12-27T22:58:57 < Laurenceb> lulwut
2021-12-27T22:59:03 < Laurenceb> traction control modules
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2021-12-27T23:37:32 < Fleck> [22:44:37] <mawk> we like you here << meh, speak for yourself :D
2021-12-27T23:38:09 < Steffanx> You're not "we" Fleck 😋
2021-12-27T23:38:27 < Fleck> yeah, I am nobody :)
2021-12-27T23:57:45 < ventYl> traction control was solved very simply in trams and trains
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2021-12-28T00:55:44 < b-rex> mawk: come back to the frontier brother
2021-12-28T01:04:23 < Steffanx> The bastard is in france...
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2021-12-28T01:42:05 < steve__> doing a board layout, larger than free EAGLE allows.  I only run on linux.  Could pay for it but don't want to get locked in.  Any kicad users here, getting good results?
2021-12-28T01:44:15 < zyp> pretty sure kicad caught up with eagle already
2021-12-28T01:44:41 < steve__> good news!
2021-12-28T01:47:14 < zyp> I mean, I haven't used eagle recently or kicad at all, so that's just an impression I have, based on the observation that nowadays I mostly see stuff done in either kicad or altium, nothing much in between
2021-12-28T01:47:53 < zyp> so I assume that means kicad already caught up with everything else
2021-12-28T01:48:16 < steve__> thanks brah
2021-12-28T01:49:05 < fenugrec> it has quirks of course but v6 just came out and supposedly fixed a lot of stuff. Haven't tried yet
2021-12-28T01:49:14 < fenugrec> haven't used Eagle since v6, mysefl
2021-12-28T01:49:33 < zyp> same
2021-12-28T01:51:10 < steve__> i see, perhaps I can find an older version of EAGLE, but I'd need a way to license it
2021-12-28T01:51:28 < fenugrec> just use kicad...
2021-12-28T01:53:03 < steve__> haha ok, i trust that that is well informed advice
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2021-12-28T03:16:24 < steve__> damn that EAGLE import in kicad is impressive
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2021-12-28T13:40:58 < karlp> well, eagle post v6 was all xml and relatviely easy to do, so a) straightforwrd and b) lots of motivation.
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2021-12-28T15:22:48 < PaulFertser> Folks you know IceCube the neutrino observatory at South Pole? Apparently you can access schematics for the digital modules they use http://glacier.lbl.gov/gtp/DOM/dom_20030520.pdf along with plenty of other documentation http://glacier.lbl.gov/gtp/DOM/ .
2021-12-28T15:28:27 < PaulFertser> VHDL source http://glacier.lbl.gov/gtp/DOM/API/Dom_Cpld_rev2.vhd
2021-12-28T15:46:19 < PaulFertser> Plenty of testing data published too, and some repair remarks, e.g. this is about one with a failed via: http://glacier.lbl.gov/gtp/DOM/MB/V5.0/170.html , this had inductor knocked off: http://glacier.lbl.gov/gtp/DOM/MB/V5.0/353.html
2021-12-28T15:49:08 < englishman> neato, 20 year old altera on that one
2021-12-28T15:50:38 < PaulFertser> First board revision was in 2003 so no wonder.
2021-12-28T15:51:18 < PaulFertser> And all the boards are buried in the ice forever.
2021-12-28T15:54:07 < Xogium> I thought the icecube name was a… how do you say that
2021-12-28T15:54:18 < Xogium> not a word play but… not to be taken litterally
2021-12-28T15:56:47 < PaulFertser> It is a cube all right, with those digital modules frozen in the ice.
2021-12-28T15:58:48 < Xogium> but… why'd they do that ?
2021-12-28T15:59:17 < PaulFertser> By drilling ~2 km holes in the ice with a hot water station.
2021-12-28T15:59:33 < Xogium> damn
2021-12-28T15:59:51 < Xogium> that sounds really really big
2021-12-28T16:00:01 < PaulFertser> Oh, as to why, the ice there is clear and without bubbles and they need something like that for proper detection of muons.
2021-12-28T16:01:12 < qyx> muorons
2021-12-28T16:02:11 < Xogium> hmm. I never thought ice could have bubbles
2021-12-28T16:02:46 < Xogium> but, that makes sense I guess, if it froze like that and the air was still trapped in and it never popped
2021-12-28T16:03:04 < PaulFertser> Neutrino (very rarely) can be interact with other particles and in that case some light is produced. And they need to detect how much in what direction and with what phase the light was. Clear ice provides medium for the light without too much diffusion so once it hits one DOM it continues to go that direction and the other DOMs detect it too a little bit later etc.
2021-12-28T16:05:10 < Xogium> yeah, netrino seem like elusive bunch
2021-12-28T16:05:25 < PaulFertser> Oh, and the Earth itself is part of the instrument too. Because only neutrinos are able to hit the Earth at the North Pole and get to the detectors at the South Pole.
2021-12-28T16:07:18 < Xogium> makes you wonder what they are made for
2021-12-28T16:07:33 < Xogium> I mean, they must have some purpose ?
2021-12-28T16:08:47 < PaulFertser> Who they?
2021-12-28T16:09:09 < BrainDamage> while most of it is base research, beta decay only works through neutrino mediations
2021-12-28T16:09:11 < Xogium> those neutrino things
2021-12-28T16:10:00 < BrainDamage> so understanding neutrino paraemeters we understand better one of the basic forms of radioactivity
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2021-12-28T16:11:43 < PaulFertser> Feel like BrainDamage isn't fascinated with cosmology :)
2021-12-28T16:12:04 < Xogium> radioactivity is scary… at least to me. I mean, its both scary and strange and something I was always curious about the momment I learned about it
2021-12-28T16:12:57 < BrainDamage> I find it pretty to see, but never particularly appealing, I do recognize its utility thoo
2021-12-28T16:14:36 < Xogium> BrainDamage: see how ? I thought if you could see it, like glowing air it was beyond deadly at that point
2021-12-28T16:14:39 < PaulFertser> Xogium: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IceCube_Neutrino_Observatory#Experimental_goals
2021-12-28T16:15:09 < BrainDamage> Xogium: cosmology
2021-12-28T16:15:22 < Xogium> oh that
2021-12-28T16:15:24 < Xogium> :D
2021-12-28T16:15:28 < Xogium> misunderstanding
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2021-12-28T20:05:17 < karlp> hrm, need another 15€ for free shipping.... what's new to buy from mouser...
2021-12-28T20:10:48 < karlp> fucking looks like mouser are about to pick up digikey's "fuck you iceland" mantel: " [This product may require additional documentation to export from the United States.]   This product may require additional documentation to export from the United States."
2021-12-28T20:11:21 < Steffanx> "The build systems for embedded devices are often fairly complicated and not well served for this purpose." .. so we invented newt. To make things "less" complicated. -_-
2021-12-28T20:11:52 < karlp> yeah, I looked at newt a few years ago and it felt like a big pile of NIH that gto dropped on apache...
2021-12-28T20:12:06 < Steffanx> Cant even find how to override some basic compiler flags except for editing some compiler.yml hidden far far away
2021-12-28T20:12:25 < karlp> fucking clever mouser, I can buy esp32-c3 bare ics, no EAR there, but EAR applies to the dev kit.
2021-12-28T20:12:30 < karlp> good fucking job
2021-12-28T20:16:50 < Steffanx> so editing the editing the file hidden far far away it is then. for now
2021-12-28T20:17:03 < Steffanx> i dont expect an answer on their slack shit anyway, seems dead.
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2021-12-28T20:33:52 < englishman> karlp do you have enough esp32 already?
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2021-12-28T21:13:32 < Steffanx> you can never have enough mr englishman
2021-12-28T21:21:36 < kakium69> true
2021-12-28T21:21:56 < kakium69> enough of*
2021-12-28T21:22:18 < kakium69> how is shortage32?
2021-12-28T21:22:27 < kakium69> any positive signals?
2021-12-28T21:34:28 < fenugrec> I hear msp430 is in stock
2021-12-28T21:34:35 < fenugrec> pic16f too
2021-12-28T21:36:04 < kakium69> good news for englishman
2021-12-28T21:36:44 < kakium69> or was it msp432 that englismancompany uses a lot
2021-12-28T21:37:03 < fenugrec> msp32F103
2021-12-28T21:37:30 < englishman> msp is dead
2021-12-28T21:37:52 < englishman> my pal's company that just finished switching to stm32 switched everything back to pic
2021-12-28T21:37:56 < englishman> st is also dead
2021-12-28T21:43:05 < aandrew> switched back to *PIC* ?! jesus
2021-12-28T21:43:08 < aandrew> must really be dire
2021-12-28T21:43:41 < aandrew> atsam is gone, stm32 is gone (although sporatic quantities seem to show up now and again)... man it'd have to be pretty fucking dire for me to go back to PIC
2021-12-28T21:44:01 < kakium69> whatever works
2021-12-28T21:44:09 < fenugrec> what's wrong with pic32 ? never used that series but interesting
2021-12-28T21:44:49 < fenugrec> what else are you going to use, renesas RX/V850 ? weirdass infineon/cypress stuff ?
2021-12-28T21:45:13 < fenugrec> lpc*?
2021-12-28T21:45:54 < aandrew> yeah I'd use LPC before PIC. PIC32 is just MIPS but I feel like ATSAM, it's polluted. I used to really love PICs too, back in the PIC16 days. PIC18 started going off the rails for me, then PIC24 was just wtf
2021-12-28T21:46:08 < aandrew> GD32 is viable too, they're not a clone. Nuvoton maybe too
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2021-12-28T21:46:41 < fenugrec> wonder if lpc is as unobtainium as stm
2021-12-28T21:47:46 < kakium69> nobody have checked
2021-12-28T21:48:15 < fenugrec> heh, pic32 pretty much single-handedly keeping MIPS alive 
2021-12-28T21:49:07 < kakium69> some xmc1300 available
2021-12-28T21:49:09 < kakium69> tssop
2021-12-28T21:49:36 < kakium69> if you need 5volts and cortex
2021-12-28T21:50:07 < fenugrec> oh I thought that was tricore / C167 or something
2021-12-28T21:51:48 < kakium69> infineon has done good job scaring small players away
2021-12-28T21:52:02 < kakium69> that's m3
2021-12-28T21:52:17 < fenugrec> xmc1301 is m0
2021-12-28T21:52:28 < kakium69> hmm i don't remember
2021-12-28T21:52:34  * bitmask waves
2021-12-28T21:53:18 < kakium69> oh yes lpc1100 was m0 and lpc1300 was m3
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2021-12-28T22:00:08 < aandrew> there were some freescale mcus that were 5V cortex as well. hated them because they were banking on "processor expert" which was just horseshit
2021-12-28T22:01:31 < kakium69> xmc1300 has very nice hal
2021-12-28T22:12:39 < englishman> aandrew in most of real life the mcu doesnt matter. talk some i2c, blink some leds, toggle some pins on a timer
2021-12-28T22:13:05 < englishman> these guys were still doing hand assembled pth in 2019 tho
2021-12-28T22:13:13 < englishman> they switched to stm32 as part of the switch to smt
2021-12-28T22:13:25 < englishman> and - turns out it was a bad decision. so back to pic they went
2021-12-28T22:16:18 < steve__> if a bootloader does not reload the stack pointer before jumping, is that ok?  I'm thinking the reason to do it is to reclaim the stack used by the bootloader, but is that all?
2021-12-28T22:20:40 < kakium69> englishman: they had designs ready to go with pic?
2021-12-28T22:21:17 < englishman> no they had to port all the stm32 shit back to pic!
2021-12-28T22:23:14 < kakium69> oh
2021-12-28T22:33:42 < Steffanx> heh
2021-12-28T22:39:00 < kakium69> yesterday first time a car have left me on road
2021-12-28T22:49:35 < aandrew> englishman: absolutely 100% agreed, actual MCU doesn't matter. However as the person who has to use the toolchains and debug shit, it does matter
2021-12-28T22:49:52 < englishman> oh yeah he complains about that a lot
2021-12-28T22:50:35 < englishman> i guess depending on perspective it still isnt as bad as HAL
2021-12-28T23:12:16 < karlp> englishman: yeah, that was my moan, was goign to get an esp32-c3 board to poke, same51 board is priced well in stock as shipping filler too :)
2021-12-28T23:16:34 < karlp> doh, I have to get over _50_ euro, not 30.
2021-12-28T23:17:16 < karlp> so 20€+30€ shipping, or 30€ of junk I don't need...
2021-12-28T23:17:43 < Xogium> well… find 30 euros of stuff you could need ? ;)
2021-12-28T23:18:07 < Xogium> kind of what I does every time I get things on mouser :p
2021-12-28T23:18:13 < Xogium> *I do
2021-12-28T23:18:26 < zyp> esp32-c3 from mouser? I just picked up some shit from aliexpress
2021-12-28T23:19:58 < zyp> and the trick is to maintain a list of «stuff I would like but is no hurry» that you can pick from when padding orders
2021-12-28T23:20:07 < zyp> I use an octopart list for the purpose
2021-12-28T23:22:53 < zyp> mine looks like this at the moment: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/FmioA.png
2021-12-28T23:27:12 < karlp> yeah, I normally do have some stuff floating around, was goign to get the c3 dev board frommouser,
2021-12-28T23:30:14 < karlp> just that if I have to design in new 30W smps, I don't want to do it _again_ if I don't order them now to get them :)
2021-12-28T23:45:02 < zyp> which c3 board?
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2021-12-29T00:24:52 < qyx> we did get pinecone with ventyl
2021-12-29T00:25:15 < qyx> it is basically esp32 with riscv
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2021-12-29T00:44:18 < Steffanx> hm
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2021-12-29T00:54:13 < zyp> qyx, so is esp32-c3
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2021-12-29T01:30:46 < karlp> zyp: https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/356-ESP32-C3DEVKITM1 is the one they have in stock
2021-12-29T01:31:00 < karlp> and the mini module is the most appealing really for any play experiments, so.. suitable.
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2021-12-29T02:11:22 < fenugrec> libopenriscv, coming soon ? heh
2021-12-29T02:14:44 < qyx> zyp: yep I know
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2021-12-29T11:01:16 < zyp> karlp, that looks pretty similar to what I got from aliexpress
2021-12-29T11:01:35 < zyp> fenugrec, laks already got risc-v support
2021-12-29T11:02:06 < zyp> given that it already supported stm32, adding support for gd32vf was pretty easy
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2021-12-29T11:56:32 < sauce> https://blackskygiant.bandcamp.com/album/orbiter-remastered today's musicspam
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2021-12-29T16:33:35 < karlp> fenugrec: nope, I'm not spending my time on that, in any way shape or form.
2021-12-29T16:33:55 < karlp> certainly not for esp32, which already hgas esp-idf
2021-12-29T16:34:11 < fenugrec> I was not being serious
2021-12-29T16:34:39 < karlp> well, lots of other people seem tothink it's an automatic yes :)
2021-12-29T16:35:00 < karlp> ok, time to assemble this rd6012p :) all the christmas pieces have arrived at last.
2021-12-29T17:14:34 < karlp> hrm, how was I arranging my desk for this again?
2021-12-29T17:16:00 < karlp> little bit rattly in the case IMO, more than I think it should be: https://nc.beeroclock.net/s/KPw79aeC3J9dXm7
2021-12-29T17:16:02 < karlp> but whatever.
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2021-12-29T17:21:10 < jadew> that looks nice
2021-12-29T17:21:18 < jadew> how much was it?
2021-12-29T17:21:59 < jadew> is that powered straight from the mains?
2021-12-29T17:22:21 < karlp> 175 euro with shipping.
2021-12-29T17:22:28 < karlp> it is with the whole kit, yeah, 
2021-12-29T17:22:47 < karlp> I got the rd6012p, the case, and the 800W supply for it.
2021-12-29T17:23:01 < karlp> so _now_ it's a "normal" bench supply
2021-12-29T17:23:12 < karlp> but people have built it into different cases with different supplies..
2021-12-29T17:23:37 < jadew> ah, so you have another supply in front of it
2021-12-29T17:23:41 < jadew> looks nice
2021-12-29T17:23:47 < karlp> like this: https://www.thingiverse.com/tag:rd6006
2021-12-29T17:23:56 < jadew> I thought it was the single board that was connected to mains
2021-12-29T17:24:01 < jadew> (looked kinda small)
2021-12-29T17:24:02 < karlp> yeah, it's a "fancy" buck regulator, takes up to ~70VDC.
2021-12-29T17:24:31 < jpa-> karlp: i think you have mounted it upside down ;)
2021-12-29T17:24:54 < karlp> jpa-: harhar..
2021-12-29T17:25:00 < jadew> 60V @ 12A - that's very versatile
2021-12-29T17:25:38 < karlp> yeah, only one channel though...
2021-12-29T17:26:12 < karlp> they have a 60/18A version too, but lower noise onthe 12.
2021-12-29T17:27:12 < jadew> that reminds me that I also have a high current power supply (also SMPS)
2021-12-29T17:29:57 < jadew> I had to look it up, because I don't normally use it, it's 30A, but can only be adjusted between 9 and 15V
2021-12-29T17:30:06 < jadew> needed it to power some radios once
2021-12-29T17:30:13 < jadew> anyway, food time
2021-12-29T17:30:15 < jadew> ttyl
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2021-12-29T19:49:33 < karlp> hrm, I think it might be finally time to chop off the australian plug on my soldering iron an put a schuko on.
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2021-12-29T20:01:35 < catphish> for the first time in 20 years i own some good speakers, it really is quite nice listening to music properly
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2021-12-29T20:04:11 < catphish> shame i still like overcompressed modern music :)
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2021-12-29T20:08:46 < BrainDamage> overcompressed as in no dyn range or lossy compression artifacts?
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2021-12-29T20:09:34 < catphish> as in no dynamic range
2021-12-29T20:10:19 < BrainDamage> ask mawk for recomendations then :P
2021-12-29T20:10:39 < mawk> :(
2021-12-29T20:10:46 < catphish> the kind of music i listen to is "full" for want of a better word, every moment is filled with something, natural silences are replaced with "build up" sound
2021-12-29T20:10:47 < Steffanx> Boom boom boom boom
2021-12-29T20:10:58 < mawk> boom
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2021-12-29T20:11:18 < Steffanx> So post some link to yt or something catphish 
2021-12-29T20:11:34 < catphish> at least that's the impression i get, i've never looked at a waveform in detail
2021-12-29T20:12:19 < BrainDamage> out of curiosity, what kind of speakers?
2021-12-29T20:12:59 < catphish> right now i'm listening to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv8CLxCD5yg
2021-12-29T20:13:24 < catphish> speakers are Edifier R1850DB
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2021-12-29T20:16:32 < catphish> i really like them, ideal balance between accuracy and ability to produce bass without being huge
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2021-12-29T20:45:30 < Steffanx> I've got the edifier r1280t for a long time now. For my purpose perfect. Especially for the price
2021-12-29T20:48:20 < catphish> looks very similar
2021-12-29T20:49:12 < catphish> anyway, i'm no audiophile, but they're a lot nicer than the 2.1 system with a huge sub and tiny speakers i had before
2021-12-29T20:53:20 < BrainDamage> huge sub is ok, the problem of tiny speakers is no midrange and tiny listening area
2021-12-29T20:53:54 < BrainDamage> (  huge sub is ok provided the crossover is set correctly )
2021-12-29T21:20:39 < mouseghost> huge sub or huge dom
2021-12-29T21:21:19 < BrainDamage> as long as it has a switch, it's fine
2021-12-29T21:21:29 < catphish> yeah my problem was always exactly as you say, no midrange, and constantly adjusting speaker position to point to me
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2021-12-29T21:22:51 < catphish> with the bookshelf speakers i find that i'm listening at much lower volumes and getting a lot more midrange, i really don't feel like the sub is missing, though i guess if i wanted i could just plug my old sub back in
2021-12-29T21:33:11 < jadew> I was never picky about sound quality
2021-12-29T21:33:53 < jadew> when I was listening music to a speaker I recovered from an old radio
2021-12-29T21:34:01 < jadew> *when I was little
2021-12-29T21:34:33 < catphish> i've never worried about it much, but i'm definitely glad of better speakers now i have them
2021-12-29T21:34:37 < jadew> I then got my hands on a stereo radio (with headphones) and I thought that's the best sound ever
2021-12-29T21:34:43 < jadew> listened to that thing day and night
2021-12-29T21:35:52 < jadew> my point was going to be that I found your run of the mill PC speakers to be just great
2021-12-29T21:36:07 < jadew> audio cards on the other hand can create problems
2021-12-29T21:41:22 < Xogium> sound cards are always a problem in my experience
2021-12-29T21:41:56 < Xogium> they either work nicely that is, are good to go but have massive amount of audible hiss
2021-12-29T21:42:16 < BrainDamage> Xogium: only because you don't have to deal with video cards :P
2021-12-29T21:42:34 < Xogium> or because noone gives a damn about linux, none of the more serious card are supported, or if they are, support is partial
2021-12-29T21:43:11 < jadew> Xogium, never had issues with creative cards - and they worked on linux too
2021-12-29T21:44:04 < Xogium> like… I don't claim to be an audiophile either, especially not considering the bullshit they can spew like a religion sometimes, but when it gets to be a noise floor so bad you can hear it without even concentrating on it, there's a problem
2021-12-29T21:44:05 < jadew> but yes, the hiss is what I'm talking about
2021-12-29T21:45:34 < jadew> I think I have an audigy 2, but not the top of the line one
2021-12-29T21:45:47 < Xogium> I kind of wish I could use my tascam dr-100mkIII as a sound card
2021-12-29T21:46:03 < Xogium> now, if it came down to noise floor this thing would be badass
2021-12-29T21:46:50 < jadew> to give you an idea on the noisefloor of this card
2021-12-29T21:46:58 < jadew> I keep my speaker system at maximum volume
2021-12-29T21:47:09 < Xogium> I made very quiet recordings and no matter how I tried I just couldn't ever pick up the noise floor of the recorder. I think the signal to noise ratio is like 110 db, I forget, 106 or 110
2021-12-29T21:47:13 < jadew> and change the volume only from the card
2021-12-29T21:48:17 < Xogium> ah yeah… but also even the speakers themselves have a noise floor, don't forget that
2021-12-29T21:55:46 < jadew> yeah, the speakers are also very nice
2021-12-29T21:55:55 < jadew> but they were cheap
2021-12-29T21:59:31 < jadew> Xogium, do you solder?
2021-12-29T21:59:41 < Xogium> jadew: I wish
2021-12-29T21:59:50 < Xogium> but being blind, I actually never dared
2021-12-29T22:00:09 < jadew> was wondering about that
2021-12-29T22:00:16 < Xogium> I mean… if I'm nervous when cooking anything and tend to flinch away from the heat reflexively, I reckon that wouldn't go over well
2021-12-29T22:00:43 < jadew> yeah, I guess it would be dangerous
2021-12-29T22:01:05 < Xogium> I've seen  a few claim here and there that blind people managed it
2021-12-29T22:01:28 < jadew> also, I don't think it's good for the fingertips
2021-12-29T22:01:31 < Xogium> like there was even this whole course setup in the 80's to teach blind people soldering technics they could use
2021-12-29T22:01:48 < Xogium> but it seems extremely hardcore, even then
2021-12-29T22:02:22 < jadew> yeah, you have to have a very good feel for where the tip is
2021-12-29T22:02:46 < Xogium> have to feel around on the pcb to be sure you solder at the right place, all that stuff… Apparently solder blobs that are done properly feel squeaky on the soldering iron's tip
2021-12-29T22:03:34 < Xogium> but I can't help but think that if it was that bad in the 80's then it must have gotten worse by now, with how small the pcb and components have gotten to be
2021-12-29T22:03:56 < Steffanx> There was a blind guy doing EE at the uni i went to as well and i recall he did do some soldering, but im not sure.
2021-12-29T22:04:26 < Xogium> like in my understanding in the 80's basically most of everything was through-hole
2021-12-29T22:04:44 < Steffanx> but im not even sure how you would pick the right components
2021-12-29T22:04:54 < jadew> you can still do through hole now
2021-12-29T22:05:00 < jadew> Steffanx, good organization
2021-12-29T22:05:30 < Xogium> I bought 2 lichee nano from mouser the last time I went on a shopping trip :p
2021-12-29T22:06:02 < Xogium> I was expecting them to be soldered, as every seeed board I had gotten till now was soldered. Well nop. The gpio pins came unattached
2021-12-29T22:06:22 < jadew> yeah, pictures show it unattached
2021-12-29T22:06:23 < Steffanx> jadew: sounds impossible to me, unless you have a seeing person organise it in the first place
2021-12-29T22:06:45 < Xogium> I'm so annoyed
2021-12-29T22:06:59 < jadew> Steffanx, I suppose you can make labels in braille
2021-12-29T22:07:13 < Steffanx> But how you know what label to put where? ;)
2021-12-29T22:07:15 < jadew> then, when you take them out of the box, you don't mix them with the other stuff on the bench
2021-12-29T22:07:51 < jadew> when you buy it, you can have google read the label on the bag
2021-12-29T22:11:12 < Xogium> yeah… it sorta works, probably would work good enough for identification at least
2021-12-29T22:18:56 < Steffanx> but you first have to open the box, that can be a pain as well. at least i can imagine it is. Some stuff is packaged terribly.
2021-12-29T22:20:53 < Xogium> yeah, but its part of the fun
2021-12-29T22:21:15 < Xogium> every time I buy stuff from mouser in a bunch, it gets like christmas is early
2021-12-29T22:21:25 < Xogium> I never know what's inside this or that bag or box
2021-12-29T22:24:43 < BrainDamage> get a digital scale connected to the pc
2021-12-29T22:25:15 < BrainDamage> if you know the weights of the stuff, you can distinguish between them
2021-12-29T22:26:50 < Xogium> hmm do they measure with packaging on or just the litteral weight though, without the packaging
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2021-12-29T23:43:10 < bitmask> ugh, I think my doctor is dumb
2021-12-29T23:43:29 < bitmask> she thinks i have covid, im pretty sure I dont
2021-12-29T23:44:09 < BrainDamage> if only there was a test one could do
2021-12-29T23:44:20 < bitmask> im waiting for a call
2021-12-29T23:48:01 < bitmask> my symptoms are very specific and one is an ear infection which covid doesn't cause, pretty damn sure its a sinus infection
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2021-12-29T23:54:33 < Steffanx> Lol. Imagine there was a test to be more sure about it
2021-12-29T23:54:58 < Steffanx> Oh scrolled up 😅
2021-12-29T23:55:14 < Steffanx> Will you die bitmask?
2021-12-29T23:55:23 < bitmask> one can only hope
2021-12-29T23:55:34 < jadew> bitmask, you didn't have $5 to spare for a quick test you can do yourself?
2021-12-29T23:55:46 < kakium69> did you do the test yet bitmask?
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2021-12-29T23:55:59 < bitmask> $5? first off they are $25 and they are sold out
2021-12-29T23:56:12 < Steffanx> Capitalism \o/
2021-12-29T23:56:16 < bitmask> kakium69 no not yet
2021-12-29T23:56:32 < bitmask> waiting for the office to call me to set it up
2021-12-29T23:56:49 < Steffanx> Can't do it online?
2021-12-29T23:56:54 < bitmask> nah
2021-12-29T23:57:18 < bitmask> if i wanted to do it on my own i could but that would be real expensive
2021-12-29T23:57:27 < bitmask> this way will be free
2021-12-29T23:57:34 < Steffanx> Here its all managed online and free
2021-12-29T23:57:38 < jadew> even if it was $25... it's not that expensive
2021-12-29T23:57:41 < bitmask> lucky you
2021-12-29T23:57:49 < Steffanx> The test appointment, shot appointment etc. 
2021-12-29T23:57:49 < jadew> but in here, it's only $5
2021-12-29T23:57:49 < bitmask> no, id pay the 25
2021-12-29T23:58:00 < Steffanx> Thanks bitmask 
2021-12-29T23:58:00 < bitmask> just dont think its available anywhere
2021-12-29T23:58:36 < jadew> what did she put you on until you get the test?
2021-12-29T23:58:43 < bitmask> z pack
2021-12-29T23:59:13 < jadew> antibiotics...
2021-12-29T23:59:18 < jadew> lol
2021-12-29T23:59:19 < bitmask> i asked for it
2021-12-29T23:59:41 < jadew> ah, you're treating the sinus infection?
2021-12-29T23:59:45 < jadew> smart
2021-12-29T23:59:49 < bitmask> i read if a sinus infection lasts longer than 5 days its bacterial
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2021-12-29T23:59:59 < bitmask> and its been 7 or 8
--- Day changed Thu Dec 30 2021
2021-12-30T00:00:11 < Xogium> sinus inffections and earaches are the worst
2021-12-30T00:00:19 < Xogium> they fuck up my balance :(
2021-12-30T00:00:29 < bitmask> i have both, when i blow my nose my left ear kills me and is all crackly
2021-12-30T00:00:52 < jadew> bitmask, yeah, I think that's a good sign of a bacterial infection
2021-12-30T00:00:56 < bitmask> yea
2021-12-30T00:01:05 < Xogium> last time I had that they gave me an horrible tasting med lol
2021-12-30T00:01:12 < jadew> because only bacteria generates gases that cause that pain
2021-12-30T00:01:16 < bitmask> and my mucus is abnormal, multi colored and multi textured, thats not a symptom of covid
2021-12-30T00:01:20 < jadew> (because they inflate your ear)
2021-12-30T00:01:20 < Xogium> because try as I might, I just can't swallow pills
2021-12-30T00:01:37 < Steffanx> Maybe you got a new variant bitmask 
2021-12-30T00:01:43 < bitmask> sureeee
2021-12-30T00:01:49 < Steffanx> You never know 
2021-12-30T00:01:52 < jadew> bacterial covid
2021-12-30T00:01:57 < bitmask> the common sinus infection variant
2021-12-30T00:03:18 < bitmask> my gf actually had a covid at home test left over and did one herself 3-5 days after i started getting symptoms because she had similar but much milder symptoms and it came up negative
2021-12-30T00:03:46 < bitmask> cant really go by that though
2021-12-30T00:03:47 < Xogium> the med I had to treat that tasted like bubblegum, but that was the entire problem. It did absolutely nothing to mask the beyond bitter taste of penicillin
2021-12-30T00:03:55 < bitmask> but just another point for not covid
2021-12-30T00:04:41 < Xogium> banana works much better to mask it :p
2021-12-30T00:05:11 < bitmask> you gotta learn to swallow pills
2021-12-30T00:05:22 < bitmask> i take my daily pills, like 8 pills all at once
2021-12-30T00:06:05 < bitmask> id rather crush a pill than take a liquid though, easier to mask flavor
2021-12-30T00:06:14 < Xogium> heh I try but the damn thing somehow always trigger my gagging reflex and I end up trying to swallow the same damn pill for about 10 or 12 times before the coating on it starts to melt off which makes it taste absolutely freaking disgusting, and then makes me sick
2021-12-30T00:06:18 < Xogium> :p
2021-12-30T00:07:06 < bitmask> my mom couldnt swallow pills either, she would take em crushed with applesauce
2021-12-30T00:07:32 < kakium69> yammy
2021-12-30T00:07:35 < kakium69> ben there
2021-12-30T00:07:38 < kakium69> been*
2021-12-30T00:08:09 -!- spacebyte [~spacebyte@a94-132-168-30.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
2021-12-30T00:09:25 < Xogium> yeah the doctors think it had to do with the fact I was… I don't know the word, actually ? They had to feed me through a tube soon as it was safe to do so, and I spent about 4 months out of my first 6 that way
2021-12-30T00:09:26 < kakium69> I was very rigorous chever before
2021-12-30T00:10:04 < kakium69> and hey.. I have never died to choking to food
2021-12-30T00:10:11 < bitmask> i have
2021-12-30T00:10:32 < kakium69> horrible
2021-12-30T00:10:36 < bitmask> haha
2021-12-30T00:10:37 < Xogium> I almost did
2021-12-30T00:11:02 < Xogium> you know those damn big cherries in canned fruits salad ? I choked on one of them
2021-12-30T00:11:14 < Steffanx> Dont do that.
2021-12-30T00:11:16 < kakium69> I chew my mashed potatos too
2021-12-30T00:11:44 < bitmask> big? those maraschino cherries are small compared to regular tart cherries
2021-12-30T00:12:11 < kakium69> when I was in primary school I was like 30minutes late from class because I needed to chew mashed potatos
2021-12-30T00:12:28 < Xogium> friend of mine was at home, eating with me. I took the fruit, choked on it, did a weird face and dropped my fork in the bowl, and then my friend realized I was not making fun and was actually choking. My father came so fast out of the living room that his shoes stayed in there
2021-12-30T00:13:07 < Xogium> honestly, that was scary as hell
2021-12-30T00:13:14 < bitmask> i bet
2021-12-30T00:13:26 < Xogium> no air getting through, and scariest of all no coughing
2021-12-30T00:13:34 < Steffanx> Your father must be Lucky Luke's brother. That guy is faster than his shadow.
2021-12-30T00:14:44 < bitmask> choking has always scared me and having a dry mouth (probably due to meds) has never helped, but as long as I have a drink handy im good
2021-12-30T00:14:58 < Xogium> when it finally came out of there, honestly I was shaking really bad, took me a few hours to really calm down
2021-12-30T00:15:50 < bitmask> ugh i gotta get back to my vulkan game engine
2021-12-30T00:15:50 -!- Jak_o_Shadows [~quassel@user/jak-o-shadows/x-5091859] has joined ##stm32
2021-12-30T00:16:24 < Xogium> I'm probably lucky that my friend was not blind, come to think of it… How do you let a blind person know you just chocked on something ?
2021-12-30T00:17:05 < Xogium> like, damn
2021-12-30T00:17:24 < Xogium> just crossed my mind right now lol and I have no idea how you'd go about that
2021-12-30T00:18:06 < bitmask> choke him with your hands heh
2021-12-30T00:18:16 < Xogium> hehehe
2021-12-30T00:18:18 < bitmask> stick something in his mouth first
2021-12-30T00:18:57 < Xogium> yeah not much time to do it but I think that could be done
2021-12-30T00:19:39 < kakium69> morse code
2021-12-30T00:20:43 < Steffanx> Better start to practice to not panic while choking. And then you can come up with other ways to tell a blind person your choking.
2021-12-30T00:21:09 < bitmask> you're
2021-12-30T00:21:13 < Steffanx> you're
2021-12-30T00:21:14 < bitmask> :P
2021-12-30T00:21:19 < bitmask> sorry
2021-12-30T00:21:32 < Steffanx> i know, im not even sure why i wrote your
2021-12-30T00:21:44 < Steffanx> i dont even remember writing it.
2021-12-30T00:23:00 < Xogium> its very hard to not panic though, survival gear kicking up, all of that
2021-12-30T00:23:49 < Steffanx> I was going to write about a solution for that, but i think i better not. 
2021-12-30T00:24:37 < BrainDamage> i almost drowned in a swimming pool during diving practice, 0/10, would not repeat again
2021-12-30T00:25:33 < kakium69> as kid or as adult?
2021-12-30T00:26:34 < kakium69> we had diving competition with a friend in a long pool
2021-12-30T00:27:51 < kakium69> when we started going the whole distance and back the life guard came and scoled us
2021-12-30T00:28:18 < kakium69> there is like this thing you feel just fine and then pass out
2021-12-30T00:28:31 < BrainDamage> adult
2021-12-30T00:28:51 < kakium69> we didn't know shit just went further and further
2021-12-30T00:29:41 < BrainDamage> was wearing full diving gear, and was using a surface breathing tube to save on tank's usage
2021-12-30T00:29:42 < Steffanx> I did this as a younger Steffanx- as wll, buut im sure i didnt feel well when i reached the other side AT ALL.
2021-12-30T00:30:12 < BrainDamage> it had a one way valve to avoid clogging with water, but it got stuck
2021-12-30T00:30:24 < BrainDamage> and i got my lungs full of waterr
2021-12-30T00:30:29 < Xogium> oh fuck
2021-12-30T00:31:04 < BrainDamage> and it's really hard to speak like that, panic and everything
2021-12-30T00:31:16 < Xogium> well yeah
2021-12-30T00:31:26 < BrainDamage> i somehow managed to swim to the side, rise myself with 25kg of gear
2021-12-30T00:31:55 < BrainDamage> put my head below my chest and breathe out what felt like 1-2L of water
2021-12-30T00:32:00 < jadew> bitmask, it's not ok to take crushed pills
2021-12-30T00:32:13 < bitmask> depends on the pill
2021-12-30T00:32:18 < BrainDamage> while my eyesight was getting blurry
2021-12-30T00:32:36 < jadew> bitmask, yeah, but I assume you don't know the technology behind the pill :)
2021-12-30T00:32:41 < bitmask> if its not time released or any special coating there shouldnt be a problem
2021-12-30T00:32:55 < bitmask> you can always ask your dr
2021-12-30T00:33:14 < jadew> they're normally packaged to be released at a particular pace, in a particular interval of time
2021-12-30T00:33:18 < bitmask> and if its scored its a good chance you can crush it
2021-12-30T00:33:20 < jadew> like they would know :)
2021-12-30T00:33:28 < BrainDamage> and now i can tell you that when you breathe after, the sound they make in movies is actually correct
2021-12-30T00:33:47 < bitmask> im sure they can look it up easily with whatever software they have
2021-12-30T00:33:55 < bitmask> or maybe a pharmacist is better to ask
2021-12-30T00:34:47 < jadew> BrainDamage, jeez, that sounds awful
2021-12-30T00:34:54 < jadew> bitmask, yeah, a pharmacist would be better
2021-12-30T00:35:09 < jadew> #notall tho
2021-12-30T00:35:09 < xnand> Commands: cache decide nar
2021-12-30T00:35:26 < Steffanx> i would most certainly not ask jadew in ##stm32 :P
2021-12-30T00:35:41 < jadew> good thing I'm not a pharmacist :)
2021-12-30T00:36:02 < jadew> but you could ask me, and I could ask my wife, cuz she is :P
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2021-12-30T00:36:07 < Steffanx> That and i want to give him the time to work more on this picologger clone.
2021-12-30T00:36:16 < jadew> haha
2021-12-30T00:36:42 < bitmask> if the pill is scored its designed to be broken up, some pills just have a lump of active ingredient somewhere in the pill instead of being uniformly mixed
2021-12-30T00:37:22 < jadew> yeah, I think this information might actually be available on the prospect
2021-12-30T00:37:44 < jadew> BrainDamage, how does it feel to breath in water?
2021-12-30T00:38:15 < jadew> did you do it because you were gasping for air?
2021-12-30T00:38:57 < BrainDamage> yes, it feels horrible, despite being only water it felt like burning
2021-12-30T00:39:38 < BrainDamage> not sure if it was the pool chlorine's effect or the mere presence irritating
2021-12-30T00:39:43 < jadew> that's horrifying...
2021-12-30T00:40:51 < jadew> it would be so awesome if we had gills too
2021-12-30T00:42:08 < jadew> guess they would be an evolutionary burden tho, so they'd be taken out fast
2021-12-30T00:42:46 < BrainDamage> oxygen in water is much more scarce than air, many years ago I did the calc and i forgot the exact number, but it was pretty high
2021-12-30T00:42:56 < BrainDamage> 20L/min and more
2021-12-30T00:43:16 < jadew> was just looking that information up now
2021-12-30T00:43:32 < jadew> weather you could breath under water if the oxygen concentration was high enough
2021-12-30T00:43:43 < karlp> who owns xmonad? can you turn off it's commands, none of them are useful.
2021-12-30T00:43:59 < jadew> xnand, !help
2021-12-30T00:44:01 < jadew> xnand, help
2021-12-30T00:44:03 < jadew> xnand, #help
2021-12-30T00:44:06 < jadew> xnand, #notall
2021-12-30T00:44:12 < jadew> #notall
2021-12-30T00:44:12 < xnand> Commands: cache decide nar
2021-12-30T00:44:30 < jadew> looks like that's the only command
2021-12-30T00:44:39 < jadew> ah, it has 3
2021-12-30T00:45:04 < BrainDamage> jadew: no, you cannot exchange air to water in liquid form, the osmotic pressure is too low
2021-12-30T00:45:15 < BrainDamage> at least with human lungss
2021-12-30T00:45:35 -!- mode/##stm32 [+o karlp] by ChanServ
2021-12-30T00:45:40 < Steffanx> you can turn off the commands karlp :P
2021-12-30T00:45:40 < jadew> karlp, don't!
2021-12-30T00:45:50 < jadew> let's see what it does
2021-12-30T00:45:52 < jadew> #cache
2021-12-30T00:45:52 < xnand> Use `#cache(d) /nix/store/<path>` to query cache
2021-12-30T00:45:53 <@karlp> I don't need to kick it, just mute it perhaps.
2021-12-30T00:46:12 < Steffanx> i recall its srk that owns it
2021-12-30T00:46:15 < BrainDamage> there are however,liquids that can directly exchange oxygen to the lungs
2021-12-30T00:46:23 < jadew> #decide
2021-12-30T00:46:24 < xnand> `#decide a | b | c` to use the best AI out there to decide for you
2021-12-30T00:46:32 <@karlp> #decide ${jndi:ldap://lol.example.com:1389/best_regards_from_hashhasstm32}
2021-12-30T00:46:32 < xnand> ${jndi:ldap://lol.example.com:1389/best_regards_from_hashhasstm32}
2021-12-30T00:46:36 < BrainDamage> they must feel uncoomfortable as fuck
2021-12-30T00:46:46 < kakium69> jadew: maybe we should do injection attack on xnand
2021-12-30T00:46:51 <@karlp> BrainDamage: I seem to recall some scifi show operating on that principle
2021-12-30T00:47:08 < Steffanx> lol if its really srk owning it, its most certainly writting in Haskell.
2021-12-30T00:47:10 < jadew> BrainDamage, yeah, I think I saw a documentary of a guy who did just that
2021-12-30T00:47:12 < kakium69> and rek srk's server userspace
2021-12-30T00:47:23 < jadew> or maybe it was a sci-fi show/movie, like karlp is saying
2021-12-30T00:47:31 < jadew> #decide a | b | c
2021-12-30T00:47:31 < xnand> a 
2021-12-30T00:47:32 <@karlp> they had some pinkish fluid that they discoverd rats could breath in, and it was "uncofomfortable" getting started but then they could breathe in some environment htey needed.
2021-12-30T00:47:44 <@karlp> I think it was around deep pressure world or something
2021-12-30T00:47:49 < kakium69> rats were put down after the experiment
2021-12-30T00:47:50 < jadew> #decide karlp | Steffanx | BrainDamage 
2021-12-30T00:47:50 < xnand> BrainDamage 
2021-12-30T00:47:51 <@karlp> liquid in the lungs helped...
2021-12-30T00:47:57 <@karlp> memory's fuzzy on it...
2021-12-30T00:48:13 < jadew> #decide karlp | Steffanx | BrainDamage | nobody
2021-12-30T00:48:14 < xnand> nobody
2021-12-30T00:48:15 <@karlp> the abyss?
2021-12-30T00:48:18 < BrainDamage> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_breathing
2021-12-30T00:48:37 <@karlp> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFFpMqs9kbI
2021-12-30T00:48:49 <@karlp> yes, the abyss :)
2021-12-30T00:49:07 < jadew> yep, that's the documentary I saw :D
2021-12-30T00:49:33 < BrainDamage> not to mention the liquid would get saturated by co2 eventually
2021-12-30T00:49:48 < jadew> BrainDamage, you breath it out too :P
2021-12-30T00:49:48  * karlp hi5s jadew
2021-12-30T00:50:06 < BrainDamage> replacing the fluid would mean it flowing on your windpipe
2021-12-30T00:50:19 < BrainDamage> triggering the choke reflex
2021-12-30T00:52:08 < jadew> #nar
2021-12-30T00:52:09 < xnand> Use `#narUrl /nix/store/<path>` to query URL of the respective NAR
2021-12-30T00:52:31 < jadew> #nar /etc/passwd
2021-12-30T00:52:32 < xnand> Path parse error - Empty name
2021-12-30T00:53:03 < jadew> #nar nar
2021-12-30T00:53:03 < xnand> Path parse error - Empty name
2021-12-30T00:53:07 < jadew> #nar nar nar
2021-12-30T00:53:07 < xnand> Path parse error - Invalid Base32 string
2021-12-30T00:53:18 < BrainDamage> #nar file://../../etc/fstab
2021-12-30T00:53:19 < xnand> Path parse error - Invalid Base32 string
2021-12-30T00:53:34 < kakium69> base32?
2021-12-30T00:54:19 < jadew> https://emn178.github.io/online-tools/base32_encode.html
2021-12-30T00:54:28 < jadew> #nar nar NZQXE===
2021-12-30T00:54:28 < xnand> Path parse error - Invalid Base32 string
2021-12-30T00:54:35 < jadew> #nar NZQXE=== nar
2021-12-30T00:54:35 < xnand> Path parse error - Invalid Base32 string
2021-12-30T00:54:44 < jadew> #nar nar 'NZQXE==='
2021-12-30T00:54:44 < xnand> Path parse error - Invalid Base32 string
2021-12-30T00:54:48 < jadew> #nar nar "NZQXE==="
2021-12-30T00:54:49 < xnand> Path parse error - Invalid Base32 string
2021-12-30T00:54:56 < jadew> ok... mute it
2021-12-30T00:55:20 < jadew> #nar nar bmFyCg==
2021-12-30T00:55:20 < xnand> Path parse error - Invalid Base32 string
2021-12-30T00:56:29 < jadew> #nar L25peC9zdG9yZS9uYXIK
2021-12-30T00:56:29 < xnand> Path parse error - Invalid Base32 string
2021-12-30T00:56:32 < jadew> #nar L25peC9zdG9yZS9uYXIK nar
2021-12-30T00:56:33 < xnand> Path parse error - Invalid Base32 string
2021-12-30T00:56:39 < jadew> it's broken
2021-12-30T00:56:58 < jadew> #nar F5XGS6BPON2G64TFF5XGC4Q= nar
2021-12-30T00:56:59 < xnand> Path parse error - Invalid Base32 string
2021-12-30T00:57:01 < jadew> #nar F5XGS6BPON2G64TFF5XGC4Q=
2021-12-30T00:57:02 < xnand> Path parse error - Invalid Base32 string
2021-12-30T00:57:16 < jadew> kill it with fire
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2021-12-30T01:15:48 -!- xnand [~ircbridge@2a00:1028:83a2:71a6:e8b6:e504:e06:57ad] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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2021-12-30T01:16:25 < srk> karlp: yes
2021-12-30T01:18:24 < jadew> https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-pop-culture/jeopardy-champ-amy-schneider-becomes-shows-top-female-earner-rcna10180
2021-12-30T01:19:21 < srk> #nar /nix/store/54aswjdx6bzs31ikn9avq7qz6nrpvlym-icestorm-2020.12.04
2021-12-30T01:19:22 < xnand> URL: https://cache.nixos.org/nar/1jd75l601r2yl25rxmh9piizgdvg6acv3mb8q9svrmjkyyhnv0x7.nar.xz
2021-12-30T01:19:58 < srk> #cache /nix/store/54aswjdx6bzs31ikn9avq7qz6nrpvlym-icestorm-2020.12.04
2021-12-30T01:19:59 < xnand> Cached, size is 8.20 MB decompressed from xz has 109.77 MB references 6 paths
2021-12-30T01:20:24 < srk> the parser gives shitty error
2021-12-30T01:21:00 < jadew> #decide keep bot | kick bot
2021-12-30T01:21:02 < xnand> kick bot
2021-12-30T01:21:07 < srk> ^^
2021-12-30T01:21:57 < srk> #nar
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2021-12-30T01:34:47 <@karlp> if you're using xnand for logging, knock yourself out, but making it respond with errors to anything that starts with #, when none of it's commands are useful seems uninteresting :)
2021-12-30T01:35:50 <@karlp> when you've got the "classic" pfet polarity proteciton like so: https://tinyurl.com/yyge6mbx 
2021-12-30T01:36:13 <@karlp> you pick the zener voltage to be "below" what the Vgs limit is right?
2021-12-30T01:36:55 <@karlp> so that for a 60V Vds fet, with 20V Vgs, and you want 24V polarity protection any 7-15V zener is "fine"
2021-12-30T01:37:30 <@karlp> but if you want to also allow ~12V or even 9V input, does a >9V zener cause any problems? or is the resistor to ground from the ground sufficient on it'
2021-12-30T01:37:32 <@karlp> s own?
2021-12-30T01:38:04 <@karlp> falstad implies it's ok, and the zener only kicks in when the Vgs protection threshold defined by the zener is reached, but is that really it?
2021-12-30T01:38:40 < srk> nah, I don't log irc
2021-12-30T01:38:52 < srk> I could add some SVD functionality for this lovely channel tho
2021-12-30T01:38:54 <@karlp> I mean, xob.kapsi.fi is anyway...
2021-12-30T01:43:53 < jadew> karlp, yeah, it's only there to keep Vgs in the nominal range
2021-12-30T01:45:21 <@karlp> any rules on the sizing of the gate resistor? I'm seeing a lot of "100-300" ohms, but that just sounds crazy...
2021-12-30T01:45:56 <@karlp> something about "discharging quickly" that i'm not getting, and some people apparently expecting polatiry reversal during operation, not just at plug in time.
2021-12-30T01:47:19 < jadew> I would choose it for minimal required current for zener operation
2021-12-30T01:49:24 <@karlp> you're going to make me look at zener datasheets? what's minimal required, like order of magnitude? micramps or milliamps?
2021-12-30T01:50:13 < fenugrec> depends on zener... bzx84 is few milliamps for "rated" voltage ? +- 10 or 20% I forget
2021-12-30T01:50:13 < jadew> probably milli
2021-12-30T01:51:09 < fenugrec> just don't expect a sharp, or accurate, knee
2021-12-30T01:53:09 < fenugrec> wow, just changed the bearings in a DC fan , and the sound difference is surprising
2021-12-30T01:56:03 < kakium69> weird
2021-12-30T01:56:20 < kakium69> computer fan?
2021-12-30T01:56:32 <@karlp> the knee doesn't really matter much for this application though right? it's just going to slowly shift the power dissipation between the zener and the resistor as the input voltage goes towards and then over the zener voltage?
2021-12-30T01:58:11 <@karlp> heh, briefly looked at fets with 30V Vgs breakdown, "just skip the zener altogether"
2021-12-30T01:58:27 <@karlp> the fets are twice to triple the price, with an order of magnitude worse Rds(on)
2021-12-30T01:59:01 < jadew> was going to say, look at the Rds(on)
2021-12-30T01:59:30 < jadew> I'm rewatching GoT and just saw this episode today: https://img.ifunny.co/images/679d3756a058e6d24b2d2e9633f93d093ffb077be60c7276cee9a595e6a5472e_1.webp
2021-12-30T02:03:07 < Steffanx> Such censored 
2021-12-30T02:05:00 < jadew> I'm sure you can find one that is not censored :)
2021-12-30T02:05:39 < jadew> http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-myr1WWLS4l0/VWMCeAvw3UI/AAAAAAAAUAo/lvIpQDt6-Lk/s1600/LBB-5.gif
2021-12-30T02:05:48 < fenugrec> kakium69, oscilloscope fan (TDS744 from mid-90's)
2021-12-30T02:05:49 < jadew> NSFW
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2021-12-30T02:06:00 <@karlp> fucking, bzx84 diode in kicad is on a 1.27mm grid, wat is this legacy shit
2021-12-30T02:07:19 < fenugrec> karlp, yea knee shouldn't matter. But I've been bitten by a zener drawing a few hundred uA well below its nominal voltage - perfectly within mfg tolerances but I wasn't paying attention
2021-12-30T02:07:51 <@karlp> now i'm curious, was that aproblem for unexpected consumption in a low power design then?
2021-12-30T02:08:32 < fenugrec> no, it was throwing off 'fake' cell voltages on a testbench for some BMS crap
2021-12-30T02:08:59 < fenugrec> (your polarity protection, if you can interrupt the GND side you can use an NFET and safe a few pennies / improve Rdson ?)
2021-12-30T02:11:03 <@karlp> neh, not easily I don't think and price isn't really an issue (much) on this.
2021-12-30T02:11:56 <@karlp> so, zwener current of 5mA, and 12V zener, for 24V, that means 12V left for the resistor, and it _must_ take "5mA" to allow the zener to properly conduct right
2021-12-30T02:12:30 <@karlp> that's the maths we're doing? so resistor is not allowed to be any bigger than 2400 ohms.  
2021-12-30T02:15:02 < fenugrec> sure you can use a bigger resistor. Vz will be just a bit lower
2021-12-30T02:15:47 < jadew> or a better diode
2021-12-30T02:16:49 < fenugrec> I think the "how high can I go" is dictated by how fast you want the mosfet to turn on
2021-12-30T02:17:12 < fenugrec> insanely low Rdson fets will also have insanely high gate charge
2021-12-30T02:43:11 <@karlp> turn on time doesn't really matter, this is just polarity protection for wired input terminals.
2021-12-30T02:43:25 <@karlp> anyway, out of time again.
2021-12-30T02:43:28 <@karlp> progress at least
2021-12-30T02:45:38 < jadew> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/804210713982926894/925541287329935390/20211228_180953.jpg
2021-12-30T02:45:45 < jadew> time for bed, night
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2021-12-30T04:33:43 < BrainDamage> https://hackaday.io/project/21655-self-soldering-pcbs-selfies just in case you wanted a few nightmares today
2021-12-30T04:35:15 < fenugrec> haha wow
2021-12-30T04:36:30 < fenugrec> does the heater trace self-destruct after "reflow"
2021-12-30T05:12:55 < englishman> awesome
2021-12-30T05:13:37 < englishman> if you smt placed a thermistor you could have it control itself
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2021-12-30T05:19:44 < aandrew> well until it reflowed and lost contact anyway
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2021-12-30T09:01:48 < jpa-> haha, onsemi issued part discontinuation notice on 24th December, "place final purchase orders by 25th December"
2021-12-30T09:02:03 < jpa-> almost feels like they might not be very eager to receive such orders :)
2021-12-30T09:07:14 < aandrew> lol
2021-12-30T09:07:18 < aandrew> which part was that
2021-12-30T09:08:53 < jpa-> https://www.onsemi.com/pcn/public/final-document/EwyxTHxn6ObuuGyZT8SH7A
2021-12-30T09:09:29 < jpa-> bunch of fets
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2021-12-30T11:26:07 < jadew> I know it's old, but it's still funny: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0-WO6xRbAo
2021-12-30T11:28:20 < jadew> BrainDamage, that's a nice project, signal integrity on that shit must be top notch
2021-12-30T11:31:02 < jpa-> you are worried about signal integrity on a dip16 breakout board? :)
2021-12-30T11:31:44 < jadew> ah, that's what it is...
2021-12-30T11:32:37 < jadew> still unacceptable tho
2021-12-30T11:33:07 < jpa-> why?
2021-12-30T11:33:17 < jadew> cuz I don't like it
2021-12-30T11:33:23 < jpa-> :D
2021-12-30T11:33:26 < jadew> :)
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2021-12-30T12:12:30 < PaulFertser> Liquid breathing was a hot topic in russia few years ago: https://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-42453875 "Russia's dog experiment enrages animal rights activists"
2021-12-30T12:16:21 < jadew> that's amazing
2021-12-30T12:16:40 < jadew> also, we had the same bath tub for our son
2021-12-30T12:17:04 < jadew> it's from ikea
2021-12-30T12:21:22 < jadew> funny how the BBC puts a negative spin on something so awesome
2021-12-30T12:22:15 < PaulFertser> That looked like a dangerous nonconsensual stunt for the sake of PR rather than a scientific experiment, probably that's why.
2021-12-30T12:22:34 < jadew> you mean the dog didn't agree to it?
2021-12-30T12:24:09 < jadew> we have no problem killing billions of animals each year, subjecting a dog to an experiment for a PR stunt that could benefit science, I think it's a net positive no matter how you look at it
2021-12-30T12:24:23 < jadew> and the dog survived
2021-12-30T12:24:52 < PaulFertser> I mean this wasn't even an experiment. When one kills a dog to get new essential data, that's understandable.
2021-12-30T12:24:58 < PaulFertser> And yes, the dog didn't agree to it.
2021-12-30T12:25:43 < PaulFertser> I hope the dog didn't develop deadly pneumonia after that.
2021-12-30T12:26:04 < jadew> doubt it
2021-12-30T12:27:40 < PaulFertser> Rogozin said in 2021 the dog is fine, healthy, and gets motor bike rides.
2021-12-30T12:28:12 < jadew> he probably jumps in that jar on its own now /s
2021-12-30T12:34:25 < Xogium> yay, delayed gift to myself this year ;) audotechnica bp4029
2021-12-30T12:34:30 < Xogium> also, morning :D
2021-12-30T12:34:39 < Xogium> and that's audiotechnica
2021-12-30T12:35:12 < jadew> shit, that's expensive
2021-12-30T12:35:14 < jadew> morning
2021-12-30T12:36:23 < Xogium> yeah, sure is
2021-12-30T12:36:29 < Xogium> but I sort of had a giant deal
2021-12-30T12:36:40 < BrainDamage> ribbed for your pleasure
2021-12-30T12:36:57 < Xogium> soundprofessionals sells it for $749 normally, except that until 31st you can get 25% off on everything in store
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2021-12-30T12:38:46 < Xogium> I mean sure there's the shipping from the US part, but… I think with that giant reduction it's worth it
2021-12-30T12:40:18 < Xogium> also grabbed the typical pistol grip mount so I can use it hand-held or on a mic stand
2021-12-30T12:41:29 < Xogium> I love recording things with binaural mics, but sometimes there are situations where binaural mics just don't cut it… Like when you're trying to focus on a particular sound. If this covid crap can end, I'll be able to go back to recording world war II weapons and the likes
2021-12-30T12:41:55 < Xogium> using a shotgun to record a mortar. Ha ha ha
2021-12-30T12:43:36 < Xogium> I was so annoyed I missed the occasion to record a spitfire…
2021-12-30T12:44:51 < BrainDamage> get a pair, wear headphones, and they should work excellently as sonar
2021-12-30T12:45:07 < Xogium> yep, I bet they would
2021-12-30T12:45:43 < Xogium> but I like that it has 2 separate capsules and different matrix so you can decide to keep the mid+side or just the mid
2021-12-30T12:47:59 < Xogium> of course it won't magically remove sounds… Somehow lots of people think shotgun mics are the magic wand of sound recording and they just magically drop everything they hear except where they get pointed aat… It rejects a lot of noise, but it can't reject all
2021-12-30T12:50:32 < Xogium> and sure wouldn't have bought it if I wasn absolutely sure my recorder could handle mid-side
2021-12-30T12:52:23 < BrainDamage> ever tried tetrehedral mics and ambisonics?
2021-12-30T12:53:22 < Xogium> nop don't think so
2021-12-30T12:53:50 < Steffanx> Ohno, Xogium talking about guns and war things. Soon  he'll become friends with R2COM 😆
2021-12-30T12:54:25 < Xogium> hell no
2021-12-30T12:54:30 < Xogium> lol
2021-12-30T12:54:53 < Xogium> BrainDamage: closest mic to this I tried I think is binaural
2021-12-30T12:56:27 < BrainDamage> nope, binaural uses head shading to give a human perspective of the 3d wave, this instead tries to sample the wave in less subjective way
2021-12-30T12:57:23 < BrainDamage> and from it, you can synthesize any sort of signal, stereo, stereo binaural, 5.1, even 13.1 if you wanted
2021-12-30T12:57:31 < Xogium> yes I know, but I mean this is the closest I got to tetrehedral
2021-12-30T12:58:03 < Xogium> but it does sound like you need specific gear to listen to it
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2021-12-30T13:22:03 < jadew> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXRtNwUju5g
2021-12-30T13:22:41 < jadew> good history on plastic recycling
2021-12-30T13:23:22 < Xogium> I saw an ambisonic mic from rode, I think it was
2021-12-30T13:23:56 < Xogium> but listening to the demo made me cringe, I don't know if it's just me imagining it but in every single recording there was some horrible dead angle -- don't know if it's how you say
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2021-12-30T13:38:48 < jadew> I think there should be a tax on plastic
2021-12-30T13:39:21 < jadew> probably our rulers already thought about that but passed on the idea because money
2021-12-30T13:39:51 < jadew> if we had a high enough tax on plastic, we would only use it where it's actually needed
2021-12-30T13:40:10 < jadew> for example in cars
2021-12-30T13:40:43 < jadew> household electronics & other long life products too
2021-12-30T13:40:48 < Xogium> plastic sucks
2021-12-30T13:41:01 < jadew> it does, yeah
2021-12-30T13:42:37 < jadew> I saw a field once that was filled with plastic garbage, probably blown away by wind from a nearby landfill
2021-12-30T13:44:18 < jadew> 100 years from now, people eating crops from that field will continue to get nourishment from the same plastic that I saw
2021-12-30T13:45:18 < jadew> who knows... maybe we'll develop the ability to metabolize it, like we did with alcohol
2021-12-30T13:51:00 < mawk> there's a french saying "bring the chip to the ear", actually it's not chip it's flea but it's the same word
2021-12-30T13:51:11 < mawk> so of course everytime ST does good and an analyst firm talks about it the headline uses that expression
2021-12-30T13:51:27 < mawk> "ST MICROELECTRONICS BRINGS THE CHIP TO THE EAR OF ANALYSTS"
2021-12-30T13:58:46 < jadew> romanians also enjoy french sayings
2021-12-30T13:59:16 < jadew> "notre poules dans votre cour" - because poules sounds like cock and cour like ass
2021-12-30T13:59:26 < mawk> lol
2021-12-30T13:59:56 < mawk> notre means it's several cocks at once
2021-12-30T13:59:57 < mawk> dirty
2021-12-30T14:00:21 < jadew> yeah, we understand the subtleties :)
2021-12-30T14:02:24 < mawk> well the second part is ambiguous, could be one ass or many asses
2021-12-30T14:02:26 < mawk> could be either the plural or the polite form
2021-12-30T14:02:28 < mawk> like when you're extra polite before the gangbang
2021-12-30T14:02:36 < mawk> or the bungabunga
2021-12-30T14:02:40 < mawk> depending on plurality
2021-12-30T14:03:58 < mawk> BrainDamage's extended cousin's Berliusconi is the resident expert on the matter
2021-12-30T14:20:32 < kakium69> you guise know that plastic recycling started as a scam?
2021-12-30T14:20:47 < jadew> kakium69, that's what the documentary is saying too
2021-12-30T14:21:37 < kakium69> people kept using those plastic things they first had
2021-12-30T14:22:43 < jadew> ah, the documentary says the plastic companies were worried that people are going to reject plastic once they realize it doesn't go anywhere, so they came up with recycling, but apparently it never worked
2021-12-30T14:23:54 < kakium69> at least now plastic is incinerated
2021-12-30T14:24:05 < kakium69> then fumes are washed and shit
2021-12-30T14:24:28 < kakium69> maybe they still bury some nasty plastics
2021-12-30T14:32:07 < BrainDamage> the documentary is wrong on one thing
2021-12-30T14:33:04 < BrainDamage> alternate processing methods can significantly cut down the costs, so a technical solution to the economic problem at least in theory exists
2021-12-30T14:33:24 < jadew> yeah, I thought that was weird too
2021-12-30T14:34:01 < jadew> if you can decompose the plastic and eventually sort it after decomposition, that would be amazing
2021-12-30T14:41:07 < mawk> melt it in a puddle and bury it
2021-12-30T14:41:14 < mawk> like spent nuclear fuel
2021-12-30T14:41:28 < jadew> they're kind of doing that now
2021-12-30T14:41:43 < jadew> I'm against burning it, because it's wasting resources that could come in handy in the future
2021-12-30T14:42:13 < jadew> today's garbage could be tomorrow's gold
2021-12-30T14:42:18 < kakium69> true
2021-12-30T14:45:46 < mawk> well there's nothing wrong with burial 
2021-12-30T14:45:55 < mawk> if anything, that might even make some bacteria evolve to eat it
2021-12-30T14:46:06 < jadew> yeah, it's the best solution
2021-12-30T14:46:44 < jadew> worst case scenario is the future generations won't need it either and it's still there
2021-12-30T14:47:46 < jadew> if you burn it, the worst case scenario is that the future generations won't have enough of it, and at the same time you have contaminated the earth in an unremediable fashion 
2021-12-30T14:48:25 < jpa-> why do you think burning plastic contaminates the earth more than burying?
2021-12-30T14:48:49 < jadew> because plastic decomposes extremely slow - this is the problem with plastics
2021-12-30T14:49:03 < BrainDamage> depends on the decomposition
2021-12-30T14:49:06 < jadew> so if you bury it, even if it decomposes somewhat, it's still going to be contained
2021-12-30T14:49:11 < jpa-> it decomposes slowly, but plasticizers and other chemicals leak out fast
2021-12-30T14:49:17 < mawk> you don't have to bury it in soil
2021-12-30T14:49:28 < mawk> that's why I mentioned nuclear spent fuel
2021-12-30T14:49:38 < mawk> they vitricize it then put it in drums then pour concrete on top
2021-12-30T14:49:51 < BrainDamage> spent fuel is a tiny amoun
2021-12-30T14:50:02 < mawk> yeah
2021-12-30T14:50:02 < BrainDamage> few barrels per year per plant
2021-12-30T14:50:07 < jpa-> when burned for energy, you get significant amount of energy out of clean plastic - comparable to the fossile hydrocarbons that were used to make it in first place
2021-12-30T14:50:12 < mawk> but you don't need as much precautions with plastic
2021-12-30T14:50:15 < BrainDamage> plastic is billiion of tons
2021-12-30T14:50:28 < mawk> put them in a place nobody cares about
2021-12-30T14:50:31 < mawk> like a desert
2021-12-30T14:50:46 < mawk> nobody cares if the soil is contaminated there except a few Bedouins
2021-12-30T14:50:54 < mawk> that's why we did our nuke tests there
2021-12-30T14:50:57 < jpa-> transporting plastics to desert sounds like a way to increase the greenhouse emissions a lot
2021-12-30T14:51:07 < mawk> yeah
2021-12-30T14:51:14 < mawk> but we do it currently
2021-12-30T14:51:23 < mawk> shipping to poor countries
2021-12-30T14:51:23 < jadew> we're transporting it to asia
2021-12-30T14:51:27 < BrainDamage> the problem of this shit is that you notice the shortcomings too late to fix them
2021-12-30T14:51:45 < jpa-> yeah, and that is stupid also - burning locally is better than long transport to fake recycling
2021-12-30T14:52:42 < jadew> jpa-, but you're wasting something valuable and irreplaceable
2021-12-30T14:52:46 < jpa-> it's not like plastics are some magic material that is impossible to synthetize later if we need it - we already know bazillions of ways to make plastic out of basically any source of carbon and hydrogen - they are just a few times costlier than making it out of fossil fuels
2021-12-30T14:52:49 < jadew> it's a finite resource
2021-12-30T14:52:53 < jpa-> eh?
2021-12-30T14:52:56 < BrainDamage> also, fwiw burning can be clean, but it requires complex devices due to high temp
2021-12-30T14:52:58 < jadew> unlike other things like trees
2021-12-30T14:53:08 < jpa-> jadew: how exactly is plastic irreplaceable?
2021-12-30T14:53:22 < BrainDamage> the plastic is not special
2021-12-30T14:53:24 < jadew> jpa-, you cannot make any more plastic once we run out oil
2021-12-30T14:53:30 < jpa-> jadew: that is bullshit
2021-12-30T14:53:33 < mawk> you mean trap the carbon BrainDamage ?
2021-12-30T14:53:52 < jadew> jpa-, it can be made from other stuff too?
2021-12-30T14:53:54 < BrainDamage> it's the milliion of years of sun's energy locked in oil that is
2021-12-30T14:54:09 < jpa-> jadew: making it out of oil is maybe 10x cheaper than making it out of captured CO2 and electrolysis generated H2
2021-12-30T14:54:14 < BrainDamage> jadew: yes, but it's not energetically convenient
2021-12-30T14:55:01 < BrainDamage> mawk: no, even not trapping the carbon, it's not worse than burning gasoline
2021-12-30T14:55:21 < jpa-> jadew: the source molecules for plastic are very simple hydrocarbons, it is quite easy to synthetize but it just takes a lot of energy
2021-12-30T14:55:31 < jadew> I thought burning plastic releases very toxic gases
2021-12-30T14:55:45 < BrainDamage> if you burn it normally, sure
2021-12-30T14:55:52 < jadew> jpa-, was not aware of that, I thought you can only obtain it from oil
2021-12-30T14:55:55 < jpa-> if you burn it incompletely
2021-12-30T14:56:05 < jadew> ah, makes sense
2021-12-30T14:56:33 < BrainDamage> if the temp is so high that you break to the individual atoms, you go back to co2 and water
2021-12-30T14:56:48 < jpa-> nothing in oil is irreplaceable, it is just decomposed plants anyway - it just has a large amount of stored energy which makes it cheap source material for a lot of things
2021-12-30T14:57:50 < BrainDamage> but burning it in an open flame results with a middle half decomposed stuff that's toxic
2021-12-30T14:58:09 < jpa-> now, on the other hand, rare earth minerals used in electronics may actually be somewhat irreplaceable, and because they are used in tiny amounts, separating them out of big landfill dumps will be annoying
2021-12-30T14:58:29 < BrainDamage> because the temp's not suffient to break the strongest bonds
2021-12-30T15:02:21 < BrainDamage> if energy was free we could capture co2 from atmosphere, generate oil from it, and pump it back down
2021-12-30T15:04:01 < jpa-> we could also make plastic out of it, as plastic is a great way to store carbon
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2021-12-30T15:32:59 < mawk> and when the combustion is complete BrainDamage ?
2021-12-30T15:33:20 < mawk> is it like half toxic
2021-12-30T15:33:53 < jpa-> ?
2021-12-30T15:33:53 < xnand> ?<factoid> to query, ?<factoid>=value to set, ?<factoid>-forget to unset
2021-12-30T15:33:55 < BrainDamage> it takes a lot of co2 and water to poison you
2021-12-30T15:35:31 < mawk> I mean without your temperature magic BrainDamage 
2021-12-30T15:35:35 < mawk> just enough oxygen
2021-12-30T15:36:23 < BrainDamage> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polychlorinated_dibenzodioxins
2021-12-30T15:37:30 < mawk> maybe I should draw harder on my cigarette
2021-12-30T15:37:36 < mawk> higher temp = innocuous
2021-12-30T15:38:36 < BrainDamage> good luck with that
2021-12-30T15:40:36 < mawk> why
2021-12-30T15:40:57 < mawk> maybe the waterpipe is the highest form of tobacco consumption
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2021-12-30T17:00:47 < Steffanx> isnt smoking forbidden yet in la france mawk?
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2021-12-30T17:22:36 < Steffanx> Welcome hows the covid going bitmask 
2021-12-30T17:28:30 < bitmask> i feel much better today
2021-12-30T17:28:41 < bitmask> its amazing how fast covid just goes away :P
2021-12-30T17:30:40 < Steffanx> You're a strong man
2021-12-30T17:30:58  * bitmask flexes and growls
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2021-12-30T17:55:09 < qyx> are you drinking borovicka to cure it?
2021-12-30T17:55:16 < qyx> borovitschka
2021-12-30T18:09:08 < bitmask> sure, i have no idea what that is
2021-12-30T18:09:15 < mawk> not in the street Steffanx 
2021-12-30T18:09:18 < mawk> not japan yet
2021-12-30T18:33:09 < fenugrec> TIL something for the second time. Don't use signal diodes as bridge rectifiers
2021-12-30T18:33:39 < fenugrec> even if "it's just 30mA what can go wrong"
2021-12-30T18:37:27 < mawk> what can go wrong
2021-12-30T18:37:28 < fenugrec> also, soldering an LCD module on top of a PCB , hiding components, is asking for trouble
2021-12-30T18:37:43 < mawk> suhkets
2021-12-30T18:37:44 < fenugrec> diode dies, fail short
2021-12-30T18:38:12 < fenugrec> yeah, but due to bad planning, LCD was on the wrong side, and not enough vertical space for header + sockets. Lousy excuses etc
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2021-12-30T20:18:32 < Steffanx> heh really mawk?
2021-12-30T20:18:40 < Steffanx> where do you get to smoke then?
2021-12-30T20:18:52 < Steffanx> like a private spot outside or in your house?
2021-12-30T20:19:05 < mawk> Steffanx: it's not forbidden in the street in france I mean
2021-12-30T20:19:09 < mawk> but it is in japan
2021-12-30T20:19:11 < mawk> at home yeah
2021-12-30T20:19:17 < Steffanx> ah
2021-12-30T20:19:23 < mawk> unless your rental agreement forbids it
2021-12-30T20:19:26 < mawk> which it often does
2021-12-30T21:12:16 < BrainDamage> the tenants must be fuming about it
2021-12-30T21:22:05 < mawk> lol
2021-12-30T22:16:02 <@karlp> harhar
2021-12-30T22:17:00 < Steffanx> 😄
2021-12-30T22:50:47 < jadew> did I tell you guys about my codeproject article?
2021-12-30T22:51:43 < Steffanx> is it about how to make a picologger clone?
2021-12-30T22:51:44 < jadew> I was looking through some old code and remembered about it
2021-12-30T22:51:48 < jadew> it's better
2021-12-30T22:52:15 < jadew> I wrote an article called scoped lock (that was the name of the class too)
2021-12-30T22:52:57 < jadew> it got a 2.something out of 5 rating... I was ashamed so I asked them to remove it
2021-12-30T22:53:34 < jadew> many years later, a scope_lock class became part of the c++ STL and it's now all the rage
2021-12-30T22:54:03 < jadew> not sure what the lesson is there, but I think it's that most people are fucking retards
2021-12-30T22:54:36 < jadew> oh, it was called scope_lock
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2021-12-30T22:54:54 < jadew> I think scoped_lock is what it's called (or was called in the previous versions) in c++
2021-12-30T22:57:20 < zyp> so what you're saying is that you invented RAII mutexes?
2021-12-30T22:57:50 < jadew> don't think so, but I find it amazing that the programming community thought it was a stupid idea
2021-12-30T22:58:27 < PaulFertser> What was their rationale?
2021-12-30T22:58:44 < zyp> maybe the idea was good but your presentation of it was stupid :p
2021-12-30T22:58:44 < jadew> I don't know, it got very little exposure
2021-12-30T22:59:24 < jadew> zyp, maybe... but it was very disheartening
2021-12-30T23:02:32 <@karlp> the _code_project_ community as well...
2021-12-30T23:02:50 <@karlp> I remember years ago being amazed at the abyssmal level of code quality there.
2021-12-30T23:02:58 < zyp> jadew, what was the point of your scoped lock?
2021-12-30T23:03:27 < jadew> zyp, just that, to provide 1 line scope locking and automatic unlocking
2021-12-30T23:03:40 < zyp> for a single lock?
2021-12-30T23:03:44 < jadew> it worked with critical sections
2021-12-30T23:03:46 < jadew> yeah
2021-12-30T23:04:09 <@karlp> jade_lock(something) { blah } stuff right? 
2021-12-30T23:04:18 < jadew> no
2021-12-30T23:04:24 < zyp> looking at the stl stuff now, and it got std::lock_guard since C++11 which does RAII for a single lock
2021-12-30T23:05:00 < jadew> myfunc() { jade_lock(critical_section_maybe?); rest of the code; }
2021-12-30T23:05:20 < jadew> yeah, that's the functionality
2021-12-30T23:05:29 < zyp> and then C++17 added a std::scoped_lock which can apparently lock multiple locks with a «deadlock avoidance algorithm», whatever that means
2021-12-30T23:05:35 < jadew> I wrote my thing prior to C++11
2021-12-30T23:05:46 < jadew> many years prior to that actually
2021-12-30T23:12:09 < zyp> ah, right, the deadlock avoidance stuff is to avoid the situation where two threads both wants to lock mutexes A and B, and one thread ends up grabbing A first and the other ends up grabbing B first
2021-12-30T23:12:42 < jadew> no, that would be a recurrent mutex
2021-12-30T23:12:49 < zyp> nope
2021-12-30T23:13:01 < jadew> you're right
2021-12-30T23:13:05 < jadew> that's indeed a deadlock
2021-12-30T23:13:14 < jadew> but no, it's not addressing that
2021-12-30T23:14:37 < jadew> I came up with it because I didn't like having to exit critical sections (unlocking the mutex) at each return point in a method
2021-12-30T23:14:38 < zyp> as far as I can tell, the way it works is that it'll first lock one mutex, then call try_lock on the next, and if that fails it'll probably unlock the first and start over
2021-12-30T23:15:07 < zyp> presumably by doing a blocking lock on the one that failed try_lock
2021-12-30T23:16:18 < jadew> there's something for that in the STL?
2021-12-30T23:16:35 < zyp> yeah, std::lock
2021-12-30T23:16:48 < zyp> std::scoped_lock is apparently just a RAII wrapper around std::lock
2021-12-30T23:16:51 < jadew> that handles two mutexes?
2021-12-30T23:17:18 < jadew> oh, you're right
2021-12-30T23:17:19 < zyp> it handles an arbitrary number of objects satisfying the Lockable requirements
2021-12-30T23:17:23 < jadew> it can handle multiple ones
2021-12-30T23:17:24 < jadew> yeah
2021-12-30T23:17:26 < jadew> neat
2021-12-30T23:17:30 < jadew> wasn't aware of that
2021-12-30T23:17:35 < zyp> me neither
2021-12-30T23:18:05 < zyp> my old laks mutex is almost satisfying the requirements
2021-12-30T23:18:08 < zyp> https://cgit.jvnv.net/laks/tree/os/mutex.h
2021-12-30T23:18:18 < zyp> if I just rename trylock to try_lock, it should work :p
2021-12-30T23:18:31 < jadew> :)
2021-12-30T23:18:58 < zyp> except multithreading is thrown out in laks v2
2021-12-30T23:20:07 < zyp> might get reintroduced later though
2021-12-30T23:20:49 < zyp> coroutines are neat, but the preemptive part of preemptive multitasking is useful too
2021-12-30T23:22:13 < jadew> haven't used coroutines yet
2021-12-30T23:24:00 < jadew> they look like javascript Promises
2021-12-30T23:46:04 < jadew> I found an earlier implementation than my own, in boost
2021-12-30T23:46:48 < jadew> 2 years something prior to mine
2021-12-30T23:47:02 < kakium69> coroutines are scheduled from idle task
2021-12-30T23:47:19 < jadew> (I'm talking about the scope lock thing)
2021-12-30T23:50:42 < zyp> kakium69, not necessarily
2021-12-30T23:51:06 < kakium69> I hoped you said that
2021-12-30T23:51:46 < zyp> I also find the whole concept of an idle task kinda strange
2021-12-30T23:52:10 < kakium69> can you have multiple coroutine schedulers?
2021-12-30T23:52:16 < zyp> sure
2021-12-30T23:52:31 < kakium69> would it be of any use ever?
2021-12-30T23:52:53 < zyp> sure, why not?
2021-12-30T23:53:10 < jadew> found references to scope locking a decade earlier than when I came up with it - so it definitely didn't originate from me
2021-12-30T23:53:37 < zyp> jadew, the idea is probably as old as RAII itself :)
2021-12-30T23:54:21 < jadew> probably, yeah
2021-12-30T23:56:35 < zyp> kakium69, the most obvious one is probably having multiple schedulers each running in a preemptive thread with different priorities
--- Day changed Fri Dec 31 2021
2021-12-31T00:00:46 < zyp> i.e. sort of a hybrid scheme where you can get both the benefits of coroutines, combined with actual preemption, at the cost of a thread stack per priority
2021-12-31T00:01:25 < BrainDamage> I wrote a scoped lock > 10 years ago for a lobby client for an open source game
2021-12-31T00:02:07 < BrainDamage> def not a novel idea
2021-12-31T00:03:16 < zyp> kakium69, I've also toyed with the idea of waking a coroutine from ISR context
2021-12-31T00:03:31 < kakium69> anything is possible
2021-12-31T00:05:41 < zyp> e.g. a coroutine can do «await interrupt_blah;» and go to sleep, and once the interrupt fires, ISR resumes coroutine directly, and the next await or return leaves the ISR again
2021-12-31T00:06:16 < zyp> could be a useful pattern for interrupt driven state machines like i2c
2021-12-31T00:09:48 < kakium69> you need to mess with scheduler to archive that?
2021-12-31T00:10:33 < zyp> depends what your definition of scheduler is
2021-12-31T00:11:43 < kakium69> why you need a coroutine for i2c state machine?
2021-12-31T00:20:18 < zyp> because you can write sequential code that reads like this, while actually being interrupt driven: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/DP72B
2021-12-31T00:21:36 < kakium69> async<bool>
2021-12-31T00:21:42 < kakium69> I have never seen that
2021-12-31T00:23:47 < zyp> and the idea here is that lines 5-25 could run directly in ISR context, rather than have the i2c ISR just tell the regular scheduler to enqueue a coroutine running in a normal thread
2021-12-31T00:24:25 < kakium69> a
2021-12-31T00:24:27 < zyp> because the latter would add a bunch of pointless latency
2021-12-31T00:25:05 < zyp> the async stuff is part of laks v2: https://cgit.jvnv.net/laks/tree/async/async.h?h=dev_v2
2021-12-31T00:25:40 < kakium69> it's your rtos?
2021-12-31T00:26:05 < zyp> well, it's mine, idk if I'd call it an rtos
2021-12-31T00:28:21 < zyp> I've got some preliminary documentation here: https://dump.jvnv.net/laks_doc/async/async_functions.html
2021-12-31T00:32:21 < zyp> this stuff is not very mature, I did some experimentation with it about a year ago, before I got busy with other stuff
2021-12-31T00:33:35 < zyp> but I've already used parts of it in a work project, was a one off prototype so code quality didn't really matter :p
2021-12-31T00:33:41 < kakium69> I don't quite undestand it
2021-12-31T00:34:12 < zyp> it took me a while also to figure out how everything fit together
2021-12-31T00:34:26 < kakium69> has anyone done this before?
2021-12-31T00:36:24 < zyp> the async class is a future, i.e. something that can be awaited
2021-12-31T00:37:13 < zyp> the await_*-methods makes it a future
2021-12-31T00:40:18 < zyp> when you call co_await on a future, it'll first call await_ready() to check if a result already is ready so it can skip suspending, otherwise it'll call await_suspend() which should in some manner transfer control to something else
2021-12-31T00:40:44 < zyp> and when it's resumed, it'll call await_resume to get the result of the future it awaited
2021-12-31T00:41:24 < kakium69> yes
2021-12-31T00:41:30 < kakium69> what is that some manner?
2021-12-31T00:42:01 < zyp> depends on what you're awaiting
2021-12-31T00:42:08 < jadew> zyp, on what thread do these coroutines run?
2021-12-31T00:42:12 < jadew> on the main one?
2021-12-31T00:42:33 < zyp> jadew, whatever thread you want to run them on
2021-12-31T00:44:11 < zyp> kakium69, in my async class, await_suspend returns the coroutine handle of the awaited coroutine, which will transfer control directly to it, without passing through the scheduler
2021-12-31T00:44:35 < kakium69> oh
2021-12-31T00:44:48 < zyp> without passing through *any* schedulers rather, it's not aware of schedulers
2021-12-31T00:45:58 < zyp> the point is, an async function runs by being awaited, and it suspends by awaiting, and in that manner forms a chain, or call stack of async functions, if you'd like
2021-12-31T00:46:20 < kakium69> yes
2021-12-31T00:46:47 < kakium69> what if you wait for interrupt?
2021-12-31T00:47:07 < kakium69> it's blocked?
2021-12-31T00:47:20 < zyp> but something needs to await the first async function in the chain, and the functions needs to have something to await that'll put the entire chain to sleep, and that's where the scheduler enters the picture
2021-12-31T00:48:33 < zyp> so I have another coroutine type called task here: https://cgit.jvnv.net/laks/tree/async/scheduler.h?h=dev_v2#n151
2021-12-31T00:49:52 < zyp> it doesn't have the await_* methods so it's not a future, i.e. it can't be awaited, but it inherits from schedulable, so it can be scheduled
2021-12-31T00:50:19 < zyp> schedulable is just a linked list node containing a coroutine handle
2021-12-31T00:51:40 < zyp> so I create a task, which will be a coroutine, and it'll store the coroutine handle in the inherited schedulable
2021-12-31T00:53:14 < zyp> that means the task can be passed into scheduler.schedule() (line 38), which will add the linked list node to the queue of coroutines to run
2021-12-31T00:54:24 < zyp> and scheduler.run() will pop tasks off the queue and call resume() on the coroutine handles until it runs out of any ready scedulables
2021-12-31T00:55:31 < zyp> and the last building block are other futures
2021-12-31T00:55:35 < jadew> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/804210713982926894/926216911296036905/IMG_5222.jpg
2021-12-31T00:55:56 < kakium69> yes
2021-12-31T00:57:13 < zyp> when await_suspend() is called, the argument is the handle to the suspended coroutine, so they store that away in a schedulable somewhere, so it can be passed to scheduler.schedule() later
2021-12-31T00:59:40 < zyp> effectively what you have to manage is the coroutine handle for the top of each suspended coroutine call stack
2021-12-31T01:00:05 < zyp> because that's what you need to resume that call stack
2021-12-31T01:02:09 < zyp> this is analogous to how a preemptive threading scheduler keeps track of the stack pointer for each suspended thread
2021-12-31T01:04:01 < fenugrec>  oh ffs. I tested this module on the bench, works fine - install on the panel : fail, overcurrent, drama... one of the standoffs clamping the LCD pcb is shorting VDD and GND but only when mounted to the panel.
2021-12-31T01:04:19 < Steffanx> Hehe
2021-12-31T01:04:22 < Steffanx> Oops
2021-12-31T01:05:11 < fenugrec> these QY-1602A modules route VDD within 0.2mm of the plated  mounting hole
2021-12-31T01:07:51 < Steffanx> Haha this sounds so familiar 
2021-12-31T01:08:46 < fenugrec> I vaguely remember looking at the PCB to check if the mounted holes were grounded - seems I checked 3 out of 4 holes
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2021-12-31T01:12:11 < Steffanx> Happened to "us" at work too, but only for some random ones. Was fun to figure out why some stopped working randomly.
2021-12-31T01:13:13 < Steffanx> turned out they for some reason changed the plastic rings to metal rings -_-
2021-12-31T01:17:13 < mawk> our fabricator changed the pcb color from nice beautiful sensual red to a ugly green
2021-12-31T01:17:16 < mawk> boo
2021-12-31T01:17:34 < mawk> https://www.matas.nl/
2021-12-31T01:17:51 < mawk> there's even a shortage of red solder mask crap
2021-12-31T01:17:58 < mawk> for them at least
2021-12-31T01:19:44 < fenugrec> you can see where the silkscreen chipped off... https://ibb.co/CPjjMvL
2021-12-31T01:25:06 < Steffanx> Soldermask, but yeah -_-
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2021-12-31T01:40:20 < fenugrec> *soldermask, yes. Seems like I've been finding one dumb mistake after another today. should've stayed in bed
2021-12-31T01:46:34 < mawk> more coffee
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2021-12-31T02:14:51 <@karlp> yech, relying on soldermask to protect that mounting hole seems pretty sus...
2021-12-31T02:14:58 <@karlp> nylon standoffs though hey, amirite?
2021-12-31T02:16:38 < fenugrec> "relying"
2021-12-31T02:17:04 <@karlp> sure, it wasn't even thought about I guess :)
2021-12-31T02:17:06 < fenugrec> I thought everything near was GND - which is true except in that corner
2021-12-31T02:17:34  * karlp should file that for a "lessons" post or something...
2021-12-31T02:17:37 < fenugrec> wasn't a conscious decision to clamp on a 0.02mm thick layer of plastic as insulation, no
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2021-12-31T04:55:15 < fenugrec> didn't have enough of the right type of washer... 2h later, made a washer punch https://ibb.co/Zxqh2fj
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2021-12-31T08:58:56 < jpa-> fenugrec: you can also put a screw with countersunk head, then it will only touch the corners of the hole :)
2021-12-31T08:59:03 < jpa-> (does not help with the underside though)
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2021-12-31T10:28:37 < hiovoltage> hi, i am new here. Do you know how to export stm32 project(stm32cubeide) for another pc? there must be easy way :s
2021-12-31T11:33:08 < zyp> does it have to be exported? can't you just copy it over?
2021-12-31T11:37:53 < hiovoltage> when i try copy and paste it on another pc, it gives a lot of error about linked resources. i didnt find any glue on the web
2021-12-31T11:38:13 < hiovoltage> it seems i need to create new project and copy all files
2021-12-31T12:47:21 < PaulFertser> That sounds like Eclipse :)
2021-12-31T12:51:54 < hiovoltage> unfortunately it is :)
2021-12-31T12:52:28 < jpa-> why do you want to use it?
2021-12-31T12:52:58 < PaulFertser> I think with Eclipse it can work if you end up using exactly the same path :)
2021-12-31T12:53:40 < PaulFertser> hiovoltage: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/3479466/moving-project-to-another-folder-in-eclipse doesn't work?
2021-12-31T12:56:11 < Steffanx> I've moved around cube projects so often and it's no issue at all
2021-12-31T12:56:30 < Steffanx> And if it doesn't work its a user error
2021-12-31T12:57:03 < Steffanx> Perhaps you didnt copy your files into the project but clicked on "link' when it asked you about it hiovoltage  
2021-12-31T12:59:24 < Steffanx> Often all the files needed are just in the same folder. Simply copy around the folder, import project, done.
2021-12-31T13:00:00 < Steffanx> Unless you told it to link, but can't blame eclipse for that
2021-12-31T13:00:55 < hiovoltage> if i move project on same pc, there is no problem. When i copy project for another pc, it gives error for all peripherals(usb_host, fatfs, etc). I think target pc doesnt have necessary libs
2021-12-31T13:01:43 < hiovoltage> i tried to replace linked resources path, but nothing changes
2021-12-31T13:12:49 < hiovoltage> PaulFertser: it doesnt work for me. This is for same pc
2021-12-31T13:13:26 < PaulFertser> I'm glad I'm using a regular Makefile.
2021-12-31T13:13:31 < PaulFertser> And git.
2021-12-31T13:20:11 < Steffanx> And then one of the files is a symbolic link.. 
2021-12-31T13:24:36 < hiovoltage> Steffanx: yes, u r right. normally it works like that. For this project, i did same things but target pc's ide gives error about repository path. Then i replace repository paths, but still gives same error. I think this isnt about eclipse, its about stm32cubeide. stm32cube_fw_h7 might be problem. never mind i will create a new prjt for that
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2021-12-31T15:47:13 < fenugrec> jpa-, wouldn't work,  there's standoffs on both sides (this stacks on top of a PCB on one side, and panel mount on the other) P )
2021-12-31T15:49:07 < jpa-> heh
2021-12-31T16:24:16 < mawk> like a mexican standoff?
2021-12-31T16:32:27 < fenugrec> exactly
2021-12-31T16:34:41 < Xogium> afternoon folks
2021-12-31T16:54:06 < Steffanx> Gooday Sir Xogium. 
2021-12-31T16:54:20 < Steffanx> Not on the streets setting of some fireworks or is that forbidden in la france?
2021-12-31T16:55:23 < Xogium> setting off fireworks sounds very dangerous if you don't see a thing lol
2021-12-31T16:56:08 < Steffanx> its also dangerous when you do see
2021-12-31T16:56:21 < Xogium> somehow not surprised
2021-12-31T16:58:51 < Xogium> but the boom it makes is so awesome hehe
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2021-12-31T17:05:57 < englishman> is anyone else getting anti-vax chat spam
2021-12-31T17:07:39 < jpa-> vax is such an old architecture that i'm confused why people still feel so strongly about it
2021-12-31T17:11:00 < fenugrec> yea, not a fan of this newfangled PDP11 nonsense
2021-12-31T17:11:54 < fenugrec> or is it the other way round, heh
2021-12-31T17:12:40 < fenugrec> " VAX was designed as a successor to the 16-bit PDP-11" . well.
2021-12-31T17:27:12 < Steffanx> I only got the pro-vax spam englishman. I just made the appointment
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2021-12-31T18:24:17 < mawk> I just witnessed an ambulance loading a guy that blew his hand off with firework Steffanx 
2021-12-31T18:24:28 < mawk> with all the neighbors around filming with their phone
2021-12-31T18:24:30 < Steffanx> Lol
2021-12-31T18:24:36 < Steffanx> Fools
2021-12-31T18:24:51 < mawk> the same ambulance almost ran over me, in a very narrow street
2021-12-31T18:25:07 < mawk> they just started speeding up without waiting to see if I heard them
2021-12-31T18:25:15 < mawk> I had headphones
2021-12-31T18:25:26 < mawk> and I had to merge with the wall to not get ran over
2021-12-31T18:26:27 < Steffanx> People not hearing shit because they're using headphones are fools too
2021-12-31T18:26:52 < Steffanx> Out on the street that is
2021-12-31T18:27:52 < mawk> well I heard them
2021-12-31T18:28:05 < mawk> but even with hearing them I had almost no time to go on the wall
2021-12-31T18:28:26 < Xogium> the worst thing ever to show up were electric cars, for me
2021-12-31T18:28:47 < mawk> then I wanted to give them the finger for display in the rear view mirror but an old guy was watching me
2021-12-31T18:29:23 < Xogium> can't hear them for a damn
2021-12-31T18:30:16 < Xogium> worst is when you have an electric car followed by a normal one or the other way around… Yikes
2021-12-31T18:40:59 < Steffanx> Not just for you Xogium. 
2021-12-31T18:44:11 < Xogium> I suppose not, eh
2021-12-31T18:53:05 < mawk> it's the fifth ambulance I see passing tonight
2021-12-31T18:53:17 < mawk> and I'm just in one street
2021-12-31T18:54:24 < Xogium> well damn
2021-12-31T18:54:38 < Steffanx> The road from/to zhe hospital?
2021-12-31T18:54:48 < mawk> not even
2021-12-31T18:55:01 < mawk> it's hands blown off night tonight
2021-12-31T18:57:10 < PaulFertser> Is that just plain stupidity or also severe substance abuse?
2021-12-31T18:57:26 < Xogium> I'd suspect both. I hope
2021-12-31T18:58:09 < PaulFertser> I'm fairly sure the majority of the cases in russia are related to alcohol. People drink heavily this day.
2021-12-31T19:00:16 <@karlp> you'll learn to hear electric cars just fucking fine, especially if we get rid of the other noisier ones.
2021-12-31T19:00:33 <@karlp> I fucking hate that they're putting noise makers on electic cars instead of banning gas cars from being so loud
2021-12-31T19:00:44 <@karlp> just noise pollution becoming accepted as the status quo
2021-12-31T19:00:49 <@karlp> won't someone think of the children!
2021-12-31T19:00:51 <@karlp> cunts
2021-12-31T19:01:25 < englishman> lol the rav4 has the worst noisemaker
2021-12-31T19:01:32 < englishman> it sounds like someone strangling darth vader
2021-12-31T19:02:18 < Xogium> its all good if you don't have hearing issues honestly, but what do you do when your deafblind ? ;)
2021-12-31T19:02:51 < englishman> a system of ropes like in bird box?
2021-12-31T19:03:07 < Xogium> hmm not familiar with that
2021-12-31T19:03:50 <@karlp> Xogium: no, it was never ok that we allowed cars to be fucking loud in teh first place
2021-12-31T19:04:03 <@karlp> why should _anyone_ accept that now being forced on us when they don't hve to be.
2021-12-31T19:04:12 <@karlp> you'll adjust _fucking_ quick, we did to cars in the first place.
2021-12-31T19:04:24 < englishman> i agree, there are not enough pedestrian deaths
2021-12-31T19:04:55 <@karlp> we're heavily reducing car speeds in most places too, 
2021-12-31T19:05:22 < Xogium> and well, I guess I'll have to familiarize myself with being both blind and deaf. I finally got to understand what has been happening to me for the past few months
2021-12-31T19:05:27 < Xogium> and I officially hate my life
2021-12-31T19:05:35 < Xogium> ménière's disease
2021-12-31T19:08:35 < Xogium> that's got to be ironic, seriously. I like recording things and just enjoying a very nice sense of hearing, and here's life trolling me, and this disease will take it away to some extent, over a looooong period of time
2021-12-31T19:10:34 < Xogium> I've just been having random tinitus and massive vertigo attacks for now, but that's already getting to be hell
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2021-12-31T19:14:04 < Xogium> talk of one nasty way to end the year and start the new one
2021-12-31T19:18:52 < Steffanx> Lol karlp. Why did we accept the noise of firework? Why we accept noise 😅
2021-12-31T19:21:03 < mawk> the city sealed off all the trash cans also
2021-12-31T19:21:16 < mawk> to prevent people exploding them
2021-12-31T19:21:18 < mawk> lol
2021-12-31T19:23:06 < Steffanx> yeah
2021-12-31T19:23:13 < Steffanx> and removed the mailboxes etc.
2021-12-31T19:23:20 < mawk> will you retain some hearing Xogium ? that's sad to hear
2021-12-31T19:23:26 < Steffanx> so now the road signs will get blown up
2021-12-31T19:24:35 < Xogium> mawk: hard to say… apparently it can vary from one day to the next and it makes it very hard to adjust hearing aids should they be needed
2021-12-31T19:24:39 < Xogium> its unpredictable
2021-12-31T19:27:38 < Xogium> but frankly even the vertigo is getting to be beyond debilitating
2021-12-31T19:27:42 < englishman> i thought it was treatable? alan shepard had it, had a surgery and played golf on the moon 20 months later
2021-12-31T19:28:11 < Xogium> all you can do is try and manage with it
2021-12-31T19:28:31 < Xogium> there's no actual cure, only relief from symptoms
2021-12-31T19:29:54 < Xogium> basically I get to produce too much liquid in my ear, and this starts to mess up the eardrums and my balance and causes a whole bunch of troubles
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2021-12-31T20:17:24 < PaulFertser> Xogium: my friend had inner ear inflammation, serious vertigo issues and then few months later it was all right, and even vertigo from turning around too many times too fast went away.
2021-12-31T20:20:44 < Xogium> PaulFertser: did his vertigo last for 15 hours straight though ?
2021-12-31T20:21:27 < PaulFertser> Xogium: probably yes, he had to go to hospital for a week or so.
2021-12-31T20:58:50 < Xogium> its the third time I get vertigo lasting for more than an hour
2021-12-31T21:08:55 < PaulFertser> Xogium: that sounds worrying indeed. Do you get inflammation markers in your blood test?
2021-12-31T21:10:03 < Xogium> none that they could find…
2021-12-31T21:10:50 < Xogium> and its not like just spinning crazily for an hour or two or more, no no it feels like someone shoves me down
2021-12-31T21:11:05 < Xogium> I can't even crawl without feeling dizzy
2021-12-31T21:12:07 < PaulFertser> Damn, one would think in year 2021 there's enough of ways to diagnose that properyl.
2021-12-31T21:12:27 < Xogium> yeah…
2021-12-31T21:12:41 < Xogium> problem is it can look like other diseases or issues
2021-12-31T21:13:25 < Xogium> frankly I'm starting to think I should get a caregiver
2021-12-31T21:13:29 < PaulFertser> That's always a problem, that's why differential diagnosis exists.
2021-12-31T21:13:49 < Xogium> the last time it happened I was in the showver and I almost hit my head on the ceramic tiles
2021-12-31T21:13:54 < PaulFertser> If your caregiver can solder that might be not that bad actually.
2021-12-31T21:14:02 < Xogium> *shower
2021-12-31T21:15:09 < PaulFertser> Some sighted people died hitting their heads in the shower, that's not too rare. I'm glad you're with us.
2021-12-31T21:15:30 < Xogium> yeah, some part of me is glad too
2021-12-31T21:15:51 < Xogium> but honestly there's this other part of me that feels like its just all going to hell
2021-12-31T21:17:10 < PaulFertser> BTW, closer to the channel's topic, my friend's far relative died of electric shock in a shower apparently caused by someone welding something during the night and using the metal water pipes for ground. I know there're some requirements in russia to have the bathtub (and other "exposed" conductive elements in a bathroom) directly connected to PE. Is this the case in the other countries?
2021-12-31T21:17:24 < Xogium> I managed to stop the shower then I crawled out of there and tried to get to my bed so I'd stay down, actually, being all slippery with water helped, but I just didn't manage to get up on my bed
2021-12-31T21:18:02 < Xogium> PaulFertser: hmm I think so ? At least, I believe it is the case here
2021-12-31T21:18:39 < PaulFertser> Xogium: a dedicated connection to make all of the bathroom metal parts equipotential?
2021-12-31T21:18:41 < Xogium> to prevent electrocution if you are in there and things go straight to hell
2021-12-31T21:19:05 < jpa-> PaulFertser: here there is no requirement to ground shower taps and similar if the piping is plastic, but if the house piping is metal then it is grounded
2021-12-31T21:19:09 < Xogium> I think… not sure at 100% on it, but I think
2021-12-31T21:19:34 < PaulFertser> Xogium: btw, that friend is still able to ride an electric monowheel etc, so the inner ear inflammation can apparently be cured and balance regained.
2021-12-31T21:19:58 < Xogium> hmm that sounds good
2021-12-31T21:20:16 < PaulFertser> jpa-: yes, I omitted that fine detail, it's like that here too. The water itself is supposed to be not conductive enough.
2021-12-31T21:20:37 < PaulFertser> jpa-: where is the grounding point?
2021-12-31T21:21:04 < jpa-> wherever convenient, pretty common location is with electric water heater
2021-12-31T21:21:19 < Xogium> I'm like ok for the most part, I can do chores and such, or relax reading a book and then bam ! Vertigo litterally gets me flat on the floor, and I get severe nausea to the point I can't take anti-nausea meds
2021-12-31T21:21:26 < jpa-> because that's where you have electric feed & cold water pipe & hot water pipe at same location
2021-12-31T21:21:50 < PaulFertser> jpa-: so somewhere nearby and inspectable, makes sense.
2021-12-31T21:23:07 < PaulFertser> Xogium: it's highly unlikely you have some super-rare condition so your doctors should be able to find other examples and the corresponding treatment recommendations.
2021-12-31T21:24:55 < PaulFertser> jpa-: as a side note, in russia many (probably most) multi-apartment buildings get hot water from external sources, so no heaters are needed. However, sometime during the summer they take a 10-20-days break for some inspection, and then you have no hot water at all.
2021-12-31T21:25:42 < Xogium> well, it sure doesn't sound too good
2021-12-31T21:26:27 < Xogium> at least my ears don't hurt…
2021-12-31T21:31:59 < PaulFertser> And often times the central heating is so "efficient" that you can have 20+ degrees in a room with an open sush window when it's -15 outside.
2021-12-31T21:33:42 < PaulFertser> lol, there's an article dedicated to that kind of window panels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortochka
2021-12-31T21:38:00 < PaulFertser> Xogium: (no hot water period) it's now "just" 10 days here and I just use cold water for part-by-part showering and do not wash hair during that :)
2021-12-31T21:38:24 < PaulFertser> The cold water is about 8 degrees iirc.
2021-12-31T21:42:20 < Xogium> jeez
2021-12-31T21:42:27 < Xogium> that's way too damn cold
2021-12-31T21:42:30 < Steffanx> Perfect temperature 
2021-12-31T21:42:59 < PaulFertser> Xogium: 20 inside or -10 
2021-12-31T21:43:05 < PaulFertser> outside?
2021-12-31T21:43:15 < PaulFertser> Steffanx: what's your outside temperature atm?
2021-12-31T21:46:02 < Xogium> hmm
2021-12-31T21:46:18 < Xogium> its +13 outside here
2021-12-31T21:48:17 < PaulFertser> -5 or so here. Kinda icey when I had a short push bike ride earlier today.
2021-12-31T21:48:56 < Xogium> I'm not used to cold… I always joked about being born in the wrong country
2021-12-31T21:49:06 < Xogium> in canada it's not rare to get -25 during winter
2021-12-31T21:49:29 < Xogium> I just could never get used to it
2021-12-31T21:49:34 < Steffanx> 11 degrees C, PaulFertser
2021-12-31T21:50:05 < Steffanx> its unusual warm for this time of the year
2021-12-31T21:50:12 < PaulFertser> +13 I'd ride a motor bike. But due to several months of sub-zero temparatures here I have its engine in my apartment, pending replacement of valves sealings and probably generator stator and other parts.
2021-12-31T21:50:27 < PaulFertser> Steffanx: are you biking?
2021-12-31T21:50:40 < Steffanx> no, its too rainy
2021-12-31T21:51:24 < PaulFertser> I do not like riding under rain but modern fabrics with Goretex and such are supposed to make it as fun as dry weather.
2021-12-31T21:52:19 < Steffanx> i assumed you meant bicycle biking
2021-12-31T21:53:17 < PaulFertser> Stupid fireworks outside :/ I remember enjoying fireworks once, when they're professional and very close at some odd "multimedia" event, I also remember there was a Nirvana cover there embedded in the eclectic stream of trash.
2021-12-31T21:53:52 < PaulFertser> Steffanx: goretex (and other membrane gear) is good for bicycle riding too.
2021-12-31T21:54:39 < PaulFertser> I do not like motor bikes but if it wasn't ice on the roads here I'd be probably riding my motor bike instead of drinking wine today.
2021-12-31T21:54:50 < PaulFertser> (at least that's how I feel atm)
2021-12-31T21:57:31 < PaulFertser> It was a warm autumn here too, I was still riding in early November this year.
2021-12-31T21:58:23 < PaulFertser> (but I didn't enjoy it, cold rain makes it uncomfortable, plus my engine was stalling for no reason)
2021-12-31T22:00:41 < PaulFertser> And after cleaning the ignition switch I've forgotten to connect the horn, and the + touched the frame and that melted wire insulation on 5-6 wires due to chinese fuse installed by previous owner.
2021-12-31T22:01:24 < PaulFertser> No more stalls after I replaced the melted wires however :)
2021-12-31T22:01:37 < bitmask> Steffanx decided to do an @home test anyway, i'll get my result in 4 min
2021-12-31T22:01:52 < PaulFertser> bitmask: what kind of test?
2021-12-31T22:01:56 < bitmask> covid
2021-12-31T22:02:02 < PaulFertser> bitmask: and btw how are you feeling now?
2021-12-31T22:02:13 < PaulFertser> bitmask: I meant is that an anti-gen fast test?
2021-12-31T22:02:13 < bitmask> still pretty crap
2021-12-31T22:02:19 < bitmask> yea
2021-12-31T22:03:05 < PaulFertser> bitmask: it's pretty cool we have all those diagnostic facilities now. Imagine what getting a qRT-PCR would involve just 30 years ago.
2021-12-31T22:03:22 < bitmask> yea
2021-12-31T22:03:34 < PaulFertser> bitmask: so antibiotics don't help much in your case?
2021-12-31T22:04:12 < bitmask> hasnt been long enough, apparently the sinuses are a tough place to get to so antibiotics could take 3-5 days just to get there
2021-12-31T22:04:56 < bitmask> im on day 3
2021-12-31T22:05:31 < PaulFertser> Oh
2021-12-31T22:05:36 < PaulFertser> bitmask: hope you recover soon
2021-12-31T22:05:40 < bitmask> thx
2021-12-31T22:05:42 < bitmask> 10 secs left, brb
2021-12-31T22:06:07 < Steffanx> Did the C change colour yet?
2021-12-31T22:06:26 < Steffanx> Of
2021-12-31T22:06:59 < PaulFertser> Steffanx: the C?
2021-12-31T22:08:59 < bitmask> oh shit, it might be positive
2021-12-31T22:09:09 < bitmask> its so faint i cant even take a pic of it, but any pink line should be positive
2021-12-31T22:10:33 < Steffanx> Don't all those self-tests have a C and T line ?
2021-12-31T22:11:05 < Steffanx> That's what I meant with C, PaulFertser  . The check and test lines (I think it means?)
2021-12-31T22:11:08 < bitmask> yea
2021-12-31T22:11:16 < bitmask> control and test
2021-12-31T22:11:25 < PaulFertser> Steffanx: I see, never used one
2021-12-31T22:11:27 < Steffanx> Control is a better word indeed
2021-12-31T22:11:36 < bitmask> Test is the one you dont want to see
2021-12-31T22:11:42 < Steffanx> Yeah
2021-12-31T22:11:48 < Steffanx> Or maybe you do
2021-12-31T22:18:36 < bitmask> how long does covid last?
2021-12-31T22:20:08 < Steffanx> Long covid can last... long
2021-12-31T22:20:45 < bitmask> well i assume its omicron if thats what i have because of the faint line
2021-12-31T22:20:53 < Steffanx> There is no answer to that question 
2021-12-31T22:20:55 < bitmask> thats not as severe right?
2021-12-31T22:20:57 < bitmask> true
2021-12-31T22:21:13 < Steffanx> It seems to be not so severe for many people
2021-12-31T22:22:56 < bitmask> i know its meant to be read at the 10 min line, but the pink test line is getting darker now
2021-12-31T22:23:51 < bitmask> fuck, i really didnt want my doctor to be right :P
2021-12-31T22:29:23 < Steffanx> Lolol
2021-12-31T22:29:36 < Steffanx> OK not lol
2021-12-31T22:31:17 < zyp> hmm
2021-12-31T22:31:59 < zyp> wanted to do some 3d stuff, figured it'd be an opportunity to learn vulkan, read up on a tutorial
2021-12-31T22:32:13 < bitmask> yea vulkan
2021-12-31T22:32:33 < zyp> shit's over a thousand line of code already just for drawing a single polygon
2021-12-31T22:32:42 < bitmask> yea thats everyones first reaction
2021-12-31T22:32:58 < bitmask> but drawing more takes less
2021-12-31T22:33:05 < bitmask> vulkan is all about initial state setup
2021-12-31T22:33:19 < bitmask> then the actual drawing is easy
2021-12-31T22:33:28 < zyp> yeah, it's just that I don't understand this shit yet :p
2021-12-31T22:33:41 < bitmask> yea it took me a while
2021-12-31T22:34:01 < bitmask> I'm writing a glTF parser at the minute but it broke all my other code so i'm rearranging stuff
2021-12-31T22:35:36 < bitmask> at first my gameObjects had a model, but now that i know how glTF is setup I want it to follow that pattern, so gameObjects have 1 or more meshes and each mesh has 1 or more primitives and the primitives each have their own texture/material
2021-12-31T22:36:05 < zyp> sounds reasonable
2021-12-31T22:37:00 < zyp> I just want to make a visualization for my robot arm
2021-12-31T22:37:17 < bitmask> if thats the only thing you wanna do, just use opengl
2021-12-31T22:37:39 < bitmask> unless you are just really interested in learning vulkan
2021-12-31T22:38:21 < zyp> I could have used rviz from ROS, but ROS is a huge pile of complexity that I'd rather avoid, so I figured I'll rather write my own simple thing
2021-12-31T22:38:43 < zyp> and nah
2021-12-31T22:39:08 < zyp> I haven't touched opengl in forever, I'll rather learn vulkan than relearn opengl
2021-12-31T22:39:45 < bitmask> vulkan just has a really steep learning curve, so if you are just trying to make something simple like that then you are pretty much wasting your time. I just really wanted to know how vulkan worked and the same thought as you that if i have to learn something why not learn the latest. 
2021-12-31T22:42:20 < zyp> knowing vulkan could always come in handy later
2021-12-31T22:42:26 < bitmask> yea
2021-12-31T22:44:12 < bitmask> what bothered me a lot was all the tutorials did the same thing, get to a triangle on the screen, possibly spinning and possibly textured.  but then you are kinda stuck with your thumb in your ass wondering where to go from there.  its not that simple going from one object to many
2021-12-31T22:45:00 < zyp> no?
2021-12-31T22:46:47 < zyp> what I've learned so far is that you stick all the vertices in a buffer and then you make an index buffer with the indices of each corner in each triangle
2021-12-31T22:46:56 < bitmask> its just confusing at first knowing how to deal with multiple pipelines/descriptor set layouts/descriptor sets/uniform buffers etc
2021-12-31T22:47:24 < zyp> and at that point I figure it doesn't matter if you have one or several objects in the buffers, it's all just triangles at that point
2021-12-31T22:48:42 < bitmask> sure but you have to choose descriptor set stuff and uniform buffers to send the right data to the right shaders so that its rendered correctly. like just dealing with textured objects vs untextured isnt so simple
2021-12-31T22:49:27 < zyp> and I assume the logical next step if I want to apply individual transformations to different objects is to add a buffer of transformation matrices and feed the shader an index into that as well
2021-12-31T22:49:53 < bitmask> yes that is uniform buffers
2021-12-31T22:49:55 < zyp> but idk, I need to go through the example code I have and understand how that works first
2021-12-31T22:50:42 < bitmask> theres also push constants which are faster but you are limited to whatever size two mat4's are
2021-12-31T22:51:20 < zyp> I figure the first I want to do is break this stuff into digestable pieces
2021-12-31T22:51:38 < zyp> and then I want to integrate dear imgui
2021-12-31T22:52:05 < zyp> by the way, what lib do you use for creating the window?
2021-12-31T22:52:06 < bitmask> yes, the tricky thing is that everything is interconnected so its hard to focus on one thing without another
2021-12-31T22:52:22 < bitmask> glfw
2021-12-31T22:52:25 < zyp> same
2021-12-31T22:52:33 < bitmask> well i use vkfw, its the c++ bindings for it
2021-12-31T22:52:44 < bitmask> you using c or c++
2021-12-31T22:52:46 < zyp> oh, news to me
2021-12-31T22:52:47 < zyp> c++
2021-12-31T22:52:53 < bitmask> are you using vulkan hpp?
2021-12-31T22:53:25 < zyp> probably not
2021-12-31T22:54:05 < bitmask> you might wanna look into it, or just learn the regular C calls and when ready to start your own program switch to HPP, its not a tough switch
2021-12-31T22:55:02 < bitmask> if a call is like VkCreateUniformBuffer() it would become: vk::createUniformBuffer();
2021-12-31T22:55:26 < zyp> yeah, I'm looking now
2021-12-31T22:56:48 < zyp> do you also use glm?
2021-12-31T22:56:53 < bitmask> yea
2021-12-31T22:57:03 < zyp> any other libs I should know about?
2021-12-31T22:57:07 < bitmask> yea umm one sec
2021-12-31T22:57:32 < bitmask> #include <tiny_obj_loader.h>
2021-12-31T22:57:32 < bitmask> #include <cgltf.h>
2021-12-31T22:58:06 < bitmask> i forget if its tiny_obj_loader that uses stb_image
2021-12-31T22:58:19 < zyp> already looked at tinyobjloader, might use it, unless I go with assimp or something
2021-12-31T22:58:26 < zyp> IIRC I've used assimp with opengl before
2021-12-31T22:58:42 < bitmask> i think assimp is on its way out although im not certain
2021-12-31T22:58:45 < bitmask> never used it
2021-12-31T22:59:30 < bitmask> ahh found it: #include <stb_image.h>
2021-12-31T22:59:34 < zyp> idk, looks pretty active on github
2021-12-31T22:59:35 < bitmask> in my texture object
2021-12-31T23:00:31 < bitmask> a lot of em are single header file libraries so they are easy to use
2021-12-31T23:02:25 < catphish> morning!
2021-12-31T23:02:38 < bitmask> o/
2021-12-31T23:03:24 < catphish> my new boards arrived https://i.imgur.com/leynGNX.jpg - https://i.imgur.com/8ORfpcv.jpg - only tested the battery interface so far, all working - https://i.imgur.com/ufHKeE4.jpg
2021-12-31T23:03:40 < zyp> nice
2021-12-31T23:03:48 < catphish> i really like my new for factor and the microfit plugs
2021-12-31T23:05:45 < srk> lovely
2021-12-31T23:06:14 < srk> what's the pinout on J2? power + can + ??
2021-12-31T23:07:57 -!- PaulFertser [paul@paulfertser.info] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
2021-12-31T23:09:15 < zyp> CP and PP
2021-12-31T23:09:22 < zyp> those are EV-EVSE signals
2021-12-31T23:09:48 < zyp> PP identifies the cable and CP signals available charging current
2021-12-31T23:10:15 < srk> interesting
2021-12-31T23:10:21 < srk> til!
2021-12-31T23:10:44 < zyp> I've made the other side of this before :)
2021-12-31T23:10:47 < srk> catphish: src? :D
2021-12-31T23:11:20 < zyp> ref. page 4: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/DUqND/D4B-EVSE-EDM.pdf
2021-12-31T23:11:55 < srk> cool as well
2021-12-31T23:12:48 < catphish> srk: https://github.com/catphish/ti-daisychain-bms - this is a new version of my previous (almost identical) project https://github.com/catphish/lg-daisychain - just working on porting the code to the new board
2021-12-31T23:13:44 < catphish> the other board is https://github.com/catphish/ev-charge-controller
2021-12-31T23:14:24 < catphish> J2 has power and CAN, indeed, and on one board it also has PP and CP which as zyp says, can talk to an EVSE (electric car charge socket)
2021-12-31T23:14:43 < srk> nice, thanks!
2021-12-31T23:15:51 < srk> how do you like pi pico?
2021-12-31T23:18:55 < catphish> srk: i like it a lot for 3 reasons 1) i like the SDK, it's the first MCU i've used where i've been able to use the manufacturer SDK without getting annoyed with how messy it is 2) availability and lack of variety, i can buy it, there's one option, it's simple to choose and buy 3) PIO, PIO is sexy, if you need to bitbang some weird protocol it's a nobrainer
2021-12-31T23:19:38 < catphish> the only (very obvious) downside is the lack of peripherals, it has ADC, SPI, I2C, UART, and that's it, anything else you need an external chip or implement it with PIO
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2021-12-31T23:19:58 < srk> yeah, noticed the SPI CAN but that sounds fine
2021-12-31T23:20:08 < veverak> catphish: so no DMA?
2021-12-31T23:20:14 < veverak> or DMA-like thingy?
2021-12-31T23:20:35 < srk> lack of variety :D
2021-12-31T23:20:52 < catphish> actually yes, it does have DMA
2021-12-31T23:21:02 < veverak> \o/
2021-12-31T23:21:06 < srk> unlike STs 1.5K unobtanium variants 
2021-12-31T23:21:27 < catphish> oh, it also has USB!
2021-12-31T23:21:50 < catphish> what it notably doesn't have is any internal flash
2021-12-31T23:23:14 < catphish> block diagram: https://i.imgur.com/fe0JTLn.png
2021-12-31T23:23:23 < zyp> external flash eats a bunch of pins and there's little left for GPIO
2021-12-31T23:24:04 < catphish> it has dedicated pins for flash (QSPI), and 30 GPIO that are shared with the other peripherals
2021-12-31T23:24:24 < catphish> but yes
2021-12-31T23:25:09 < srk> risc-v variant would be dope tho :D
2021-12-31T23:25:20 < catphish> no variants please!
2021-12-31T23:25:32 < srk> just look at all the pi variants
2021-12-31T23:25:35 < catphish> they just need to keep the one they have in stock!
2021-12-31T23:25:38 < srk> give it a year or two :D
2021-12-31T23:25:59 < catphish> they're new to IC development, i'm hoping they make a success of this one
2021-12-31T23:26:24 < srk> pi4 cm is also unobtanium recently I've heard
2021-12-31T23:26:31 < catphish> J1 on my boards by the way, has 2 x battery comms on one board, and 4 x 12V digital in + 4 x low side switches on the other
2021-12-31T23:27:12 < zyp> srk, what do you figure you'd gain from it having risc-v rather than cortex-m?
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2021-12-31T23:27:30 < Laurenceb> sup
2021-12-31T23:27:43 < veverak> catphish: from the looks of it Raspberry Foudnation (or what they are called?) are working on having better skills at making chips
2021-12-31T23:27:45 < srk> zyp: not much, lower cost maybe :)
2021-12-31T23:27:54 < veverak> catphish: so I do expect that they will produce more :)
2021-12-31T23:28:26 < catphish> veverak: the optimist in me hoped that rpi foundation will become the new arm since we (britain) lost arm to china
2021-12-31T23:28:30 < Laurenceb> lol my mum changed her faceberg profile pic to "Epstein did nothing wrong"
2021-12-31T23:28:33 < catphish> *hopes
2021-12-31T23:29:00 < srk> oO but bunch of board variants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP2040#Boards
2021-12-31T23:29:16 < veverak> catphish: I don't care about the RP2040 tbh, but I do like CM4 for robots
2021-12-31T23:29:24 < veverak> except for the part that I have yet to learn how route USB3.0
2021-12-31T23:29:56 < catphish> i've not looked at the pi compute things
2021-12-31T23:29:59 < zyp> srk, so far the only benefit I've seen from risc-v is a standard freerunning system time counter
2021-12-31T23:30:09 < zyp> I've always missed that in cortex-m
2021-12-31T23:30:33 < veverak> catphish: I love the idea that there is one standard for the compute module "connector" and multiple boards for both sides
2021-12-31T23:30:40 < zyp> srk, does CM4 have USB3?
2021-12-31T23:30:44 < veverak> zyp: no
2021-12-31T23:30:46 < catphish> i'm hoping for a fully open source risc-v processor
2021-12-31T23:30:48 < veverak> zyp: it has PCIe
2021-12-31T23:30:57 < zyp> veverak, that's what I thought
2021-12-31T23:30:57 < veverak> zyp: so you have to do the PCIe->USB3.0 part yourself
2021-12-31T23:30:58 < catphish> (and that china mass produce it for pennies)
2021-12-31T23:31:02 < veverak> which is where I am stuck at :)
2021-12-31T23:31:04 < srk> catphish: I'm toying with https://github.com/standardsemiconductor/lion/ on ice40 :)
2021-12-31T23:31:27 < catphish> srk: cool
2021-12-31T23:31:30 < zyp> what will you be using usb3 for?
2021-12-31T23:31:34 < veverak> catphish: the way I see it, I would love to make compute module base board for my robots and just replace it in case it is not powerfull enough
2021-12-31T23:31:39 < veverak> zyp: RGBD cameras
2021-12-31T23:32:17 < catphish> i've not tried anything more complex than 68000 on fpga :)
2021-12-31T23:32:31 < catphish> veverak: what kind of robots do you breed?
2021-12-31T23:32:41 < veverak> legged ones
2021-12-31T23:32:44 < srk> killer ones
2021-12-31T23:32:44 < zyp> catphish, there's tons of fully open source risc-v processors
2021-12-31T23:32:45 < srk> xD
2021-12-31T23:32:50 < srk> yes
2021-12-31T23:32:55 < zyp> I've used vexriscv a bunch
2021-12-31T23:33:11 < catphish> zyp: that's cool, but where's the hardware? :)
2021-12-31T23:33:15 < Laurenceb> the fucking chicoms man
2021-12-31T23:33:37 < veverak> catphish: small legged ones to be precise, so having custom base board for computer module would do a lot of space saving
2021-12-31T23:33:51 < srk> hehe, was about to link https://github.com/SpinalHDL/VexRiscv
2021-12-31T23:33:54 < srk> also picorv
2021-12-31T23:34:05 < catphish> veverak: pictures?
2021-12-31T23:34:39 < zyp> catphish, https://bin.jvnv.net/file/yI0JN.jpg
2021-12-31T23:34:51 < veverak> catphish: here is explosion view of quadruped https://schpin.org/_images/expansion_big.png
2021-12-31T23:35:02 < srk> zyp: mass reflow?
2021-12-31T23:35:25 < zyp> shit waiting in a box on my shelf to be tested, packed and sold
2021-12-31T23:35:51 < veverak> catphish: and here is video of hexapod https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe1yEuVVJTU&feature=youtu.be
2021-12-31T23:36:24 < srk> mm, ecp5
2021-12-31T23:36:30 < veverak> catphish: using rpi4 for now in the robots exclusively 
2021-12-31T23:36:57 < veverak> stm32g4 should be company for it, even have 24x24mm in the tile shape for it
2021-12-31T23:37:06 < veverak> but that part of the project is on standby cuz chip shortage
2021-12-31T23:37:40 < veverak> (the G4 has buffer with commands to exec over the robot, something like custom binary gcode, so it handles the realtime part)
2021-12-31T23:37:45 < srk> zyp: orbtrace-mini?
2021-12-31T23:38:06 < zyp> srk, https://github.com/orbcode/orbtrace
2021-12-31T23:38:18 < srk> I know orbtrace but didn't know there's such a board for it :)
2021-12-31T23:38:26 < srk> only played with it on ice40
2021-12-31T23:38:37 < zyp> ah, cool
2021-12-31T23:38:40 < srk> and usb<>uarts :)
2021-12-31T23:38:48 < zyp> that's before my time :)
2021-12-31T23:39:07 < catphish> veverak: very nice, very modular!
2021-12-31T23:39:18 < srk> tell me more. I think I want one or two
2021-12-31T23:39:20 < catphish> i've been meaning to build one of those
2021-12-31T23:40:05 < catphish> can they bring me wine from the fridge?
2021-12-31T23:40:14 < veverak> they are happy when they are walking :D
2021-12-31T23:40:27 < veverak> I've certain issues with overengineering, it slows down development
2021-12-31T23:40:53 < veverak> I spent more time on haskell interpret of openscad so I have atuomatically generated BOM on the documentation site than reasonable
2021-12-31T23:41:53 < srk> while you could "just" use implicitCAD and spend even more time on that!
2021-12-31T23:41:53 < zyp> srk, https://bin.jvnv.net/file/xPod5/orbtrace_mini.pdf
2021-12-31T23:42:05 < srk> <3
2021-12-31T23:42:25 < veverak> srk: yup, that rabbit hole was too obvious
2021-12-31T23:42:42 < veverak> but hey, I finally could check "do functional language interpret in haskell" from my bucket list
2021-12-31T23:42:52 < srk> :))
2021-12-31T23:43:32 < srk> zyp: wild! why did you opt for bigger fpga?
2021-12-31T23:44:07 < zyp> HS USB, XIP flash, 8MB hyperram, standard 10 and 20 pin connectors plus headers for jtag/swd and six spare IOs (e.g. extra uarts or whatever)
2021-12-31T23:45:26 < zyp> should support trace clocks somewhere north of 100MHz, not sure exactly how fast; we're currently still only supporting streaming which means the bottleneck is the USB link
2021-12-31T23:47:08 < zyp> but the plan is to eventually buffer in the hyperram
2021-12-31T23:47:16 < Steffanx> Can one buy those boards in the zyp shop yet ?
2021-12-31T23:47:23 < zyp> you should see Dave's orbmortem presentation
2021-12-31T23:47:25 < srk> interesting. can't do USB3? :)
2021-12-31T23:47:55 < zyp> Steffanx, not yet, I need to stop getting distracted by other stuff :)
2021-12-31T23:48:11 < Steffanx> Hah alright 
2021-12-31T23:48:35 < srk> ecp pcie certainly makes things harder because it isn't free
2021-12-31T23:49:11 < zyp> usb3 is on the roadmap
2021-12-31T23:49:23 < srk> is that pcie->usb3?
2021-12-31T23:49:31 < zyp> but I figured I'll make a «-mini» first
2021-12-31T23:49:56 < zyp> get some actual user feedback before making a more complicated hardware :)
2021-12-31T23:50:50 < zyp> I figure if I sell enough of these, I can spend the profit on a beagle 5000 to aid developing a usb3 variant ;)
2021-12-31T23:50:59  * srk volunteers
2021-12-31T23:51:34 < zyp> there's a waitlist ticket in the github repo if you want to get notified when it's available
2021-12-31T23:51:43 < srk> yes
2021-12-31T23:53:16 < veverak> catphish: anyway, turns out I do want custom pcb/st for servomotors for the project
2021-12-31T23:53:28 < veverak> catphish: allready have prototype board
2021-12-31T23:53:31 < veverak> *pcb/sw
2021-12-31T23:53:40 < veverak> hella fun
2021-12-31T23:55:35 < Steffanx> Better learn about PID and high/low pass filters veverak  :P
2021-12-31T23:55:51 < veverak> I do know PID
2021-12-31T23:55:52 < srk> :D
2021-12-31T23:56:02 < veverak> and I raise you by using NNPID ;) (PID inside neural networks)
2021-12-31T23:56:14 < Steffanx> I'm just referring to some talk you had yesterday. 
2021-12-31T23:56:19 < zyp> I also need to make a servo controller
2021-12-31T23:56:28 < srk> same here :D
2021-12-31T23:56:36 < zyp> I got a new toy a few weeks ago: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/2pVce.jpg
2021-12-31T23:57:02 < srk> looks like a job for stmbl
2021-12-31T23:57:03 < veverak> Steffanx: got ya!
2021-12-31T23:57:04 < catphish> zyp: that's a serious looking robot, what does it do?
2021-12-31T23:57:21 < zyp> currently it takes up space in my storage room :)
2021-12-31T23:57:33 < veverak> Steffanx: anyway, I view PIDs differently than rue, that's all :D
2021-12-31T23:57:39 < srk> that control box tho
2021-12-31T23:58:19 < zyp> well, it's got around 5kW worth of servos :)
2021-12-31T23:59:07 < veverak> hmm, STMBL, just what we were looking for for different projects
2021-12-31T23:59:08 < srk> surely half of the box is just a transformer and some UPS
2021-12-31T23:59:31 < zyp> haha
--- Log closed Sat Jan 01 00:00:01 2022