--- Log opened su touko 01 00:00:10 2022
--- Day changed su touko 01 2022
2022-05-01T00:00:10 < Steffanx> Ah
2022-05-01T00:00:46 < Mangy_Dog> new pcb design for easier construction
2022-05-01T00:00:49 < Mangy_Dog> and repair
2022-05-01T00:01:02 < Mangy_Dog> kinda needed as i have 10 more orders
2022-05-01T00:01:16 < Mangy_Dog> oh and new power system that should be a bit more efficiant 
2022-05-01T00:01:18 < Mangy_Dog> and quicker charger
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2022-05-01T00:31:14 < catphish> after watching almost every episode of star trek, i may need one :) what can it record
2022-05-01T00:39:20 < Mangy_Dog> ummm
2022-05-01T00:39:22 < Mangy_Dog> errr
2022-05-01T00:39:30 < Mangy_Dog> it goes beep and shows graphics :p
2022-05-01T01:00:44 < catphish> are they good graphics? that's a lot of hardware :)
2022-05-01T01:01:17 < catphish> and is the beep of a believeable tricorder style? :)
2022-05-01T01:02:29 < Mangy_Dog> didnt you see my video on it?
2022-05-01T01:07:09 < catphish> Mangy_Dog: most likely i watched it, drank excessively, and forgot, got a link?
2022-05-01T01:07:19 < Mangy_Dog> :D
2022-05-01T01:07:50 < Mangy_Dog> https://youtu.be/4kC63O7zNdg
2022-05-01T01:08:48 < catphish> are you a british?
2022-05-01T01:08:54 < Mangy_Dog> >.>
2022-05-01T01:13:15 < catphish> Mangy_Dog: oO you've done speedometer projects! i'm helping someone with a LCD speedo project
2022-05-01T01:13:23 < Mangy_Dog> :D
2022-05-01T01:13:42 < Mangy_Dog> ill be going back to the speedo acctually sometime in the next year
2022-05-01T01:15:55 < catphish> this is what i was working on https://i.imgur.com/FrNuby2.jpg
2022-05-01T01:15:58 < catphish> it has a PCB now
2022-05-01T01:16:38 < catphish> mostly to add CAN do the display
2022-05-01T01:18:12 < catphish> Mangy_Dog: that tricorder is beautiful! you've put serious hours into that GUI
2022-05-01T01:18:40 < Mangy_Dog> yeah i8ts been a ton of work
2022-05-01T01:18:44 < Mangy_Dog> and thank you :)
2022-05-01T01:19:14 < catphish> Mangy_Dog: is this just a one-off for a customer?
2022-05-01T01:19:20 < Mangy_Dog> that was
2022-05-01T01:19:25 < Mangy_Dog> im making 10 more that are accounted for
2022-05-01T01:19:34 < Mangy_Dog> hence the redesigned pcb
2022-05-01T01:19:40 < catphish> cool!
2022-05-01T01:19:48 < catphish> how did you make the case?
2022-05-01T01:20:01 < catphish> 3d print?
2022-05-01T01:20:30 < Mangy_Dog> yeah
2022-05-01T01:20:35 < Mangy_Dog> with lots of post processing
2022-05-01T01:20:36 < Mangy_Dog> its resin
2022-05-01T01:20:50 < catphish> i'm seriously impressed, i can't help but feel this should be made in batches of 1,000 not 10!
2022-05-01T01:21:13 < Mangy_Dog> that means id have to make 1000 D:
2022-05-01T01:22:34 < catphish> yep! maximum SMD, injection moulding!
2022-05-01T01:23:14 < catphish> in any case, i'm most impressed
2022-05-01T01:23:22 < Mangy_Dog> thankies :)
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2022-05-01T01:39:44 < catphish> if this print is worth £104... https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/1185456502/star-trek-schematic-lcars-uss-enterprise
2022-05-01T01:47:50 < Mangy_Dog> prtty
2022-05-01T01:47:54 < Mangy_Dog> pretty
2022-05-01T01:52:01 < catphish> facebook advertised it to me after i watched your video! i'm kinda tempted
2022-05-01T01:52:43 < Mangy_Dog> heheh
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2022-05-01T06:08:28 < GenTooMan> hey their will be "nominal" stm32 parts sometime this year ... and next year but I'm just excited to see something other than next year.
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2022-05-01T15:40:52 < fenugrec> typography pros : is this comic sans ?? https://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/images500x500/ice_ice_hduv52_52mm_uv_filter_1633450869_1398378.jpg
2022-05-01T15:43:18 < jpa-> probably
2022-05-01T15:43:20 < jpa-> does it matter?
2022-05-01T15:44:03 < jpa-> did you read online that comic sans should not be used for some weird reason and are now trying to enforce your worldview on the filter manufacturer?
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2022-05-01T16:45:32 < Steffanx> Hello jpa- how's your day?
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2022-05-01T17:11:41 < fenugrec> jpa-, ofc. I find it very amusing for "serious " companies to use that font for anything
2022-05-01T17:11:59 < fenugrec> no, I don`t get obsessed over bad kerning etc
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2022-05-01T17:49:16 < fenugrec> https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/9cdc770ee6d32d569f4dfa1d7e44029e-970-80.jpg.webp
2022-05-01T18:18:01 < Posterdati> hi\
2022-05-01T18:21:39 < Posterdati> please help, I have a problem with union/struct containing bitfield memeber line volatile uint32_t member : 4; the member it is not correctly referenced: if I write variable.member = 15, when I read back I found another unrelated value instead. it happens only in one case. I'm using arm-none-eabi from debian. Thanks for help
2022-05-01T18:23:34 < jpa-> so, step through in assembler code and see what it does?
2022-05-01T18:23:46 < jpa-> (or read the disassembly if it is clear enough)
2022-05-01T18:24:24 < jpa-> volatile bitfield member does sound quite risky in the sense that it will cause read-modify-write in weird ways
2022-05-01T18:25:04 < catphish> it should do a read-modify-write, i don't see why that should be a problem though
2022-05-01T18:25:07 < jpa-> e.g. foo.member = foo.member + 1; will read twice and write once
2022-05-01T18:25:40 < catphish> jpa-: surely no compiler would do 2 reads there?
2022-05-01T18:25:56 < catphish> i know it's volatile but...
2022-05-01T18:25:58 < jpa-> wouldn't every compiler be required to do 2 reads there?
2022-05-01T18:26:43 < catphish> jpa-: i actually don't know, on the face of it, it's very clear that this is a read-modify-write, but i don't know the details of the C spec
2022-05-01T18:27:08 < jpa-> https://godbolt.org/z/d3efKd4q4  looks like 2 reads to me
2022-05-01T18:29:56 < jpa-> though funnily it appears to do the same even when the volatile specifier is outside the struct, i would have expected only one read in that case
2022-05-01T18:30:52 < catphish> i don't see 2 reads, do i?
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2022-05-01T18:32:18 < catphish> i'm pretty confused by the complexity of that code though
2022-05-01T18:33:16 < catphish> what's all the juggling between r2 and r3 for?
2022-05-01T18:36:21 < Posterdati> jpa-: could be sometring related to __attribute__ ((packed))
2022-05-01T18:36:23 < catphish> technically you're right that it reads twice, but i don't feel like this has anything to do with it being volatile, why is it doing all that weird bit juggling?
2022-05-01T18:37:13 < catphish> Posterdati: can you post your code?
2022-05-01T18:39:13 < Posterdati> catphish: ok
2022-05-01T18:42:46 < catphish> jpa-: can you explain why your function doesn't just generate a simple 32 bit load, add, store? why ldrb and strb and bfi? also, g_foo.a++; produces the same result, it seems nonsense that this would need to read the data twice, but i can clearly see that it does...
2022-05-01T18:43:04 < catphish> jpa-: you're right (i think), but i don't understand at all what's going on
2022-05-01T18:47:04 < zyp> not sure I got the full context, but foo.member = foo.member + 1; first requires a read to get foo.member, then you do the add, and then to write the new value of foo.member back it first needs to do another read of the other bitfields to be preserved, swap out the contents of foo.member, and write them back
2022-05-01T18:48:06 < zyp> mixing bitfields and volatile is in general not recommended; if you want to use bitfields for register mapping you should make explicit reads/writes and convert them to/from the bitfield struct manually
2022-05-01T18:48:32 < zyp> which indeed is a hassle :)
2022-05-01T18:48:54 < zyp> when the only way of sanely using bitfields is a hassle, it's better to just avoid them entirely IMO
2022-05-01T18:52:21 < catphish> ugh, i'm being a dumbass, i didn't realise that jpa-'s example had bitfields
2022-05-01T18:55:13 < catphish> so yeah, it needs 2 copies, though i'm not really sure why it does 2 memory reads to get the 2 copies rather than one read, and an internal copy
2022-05-01T18:55:49 < catphish> it does both reads at the beginning of the operation
2022-05-01T18:56:14 < catphish> anyway, this is kind of a tangent, but i understand (sort of) now what it's doing
2022-05-01T19:06:29 < Posterdati> catphish: https://paste.debian.net/1239592/
2022-05-01T19:07:29 < Posterdati> jpa-: I posted the working example
2022-05-01T19:07:48 < Posterdati> sPLLCFGR.PLLN = 336 is working
2022-05-01T19:10:28 < Posterdati> if I use the structure pointing to the memory directly ((RCC::tRCCC_PLLCFGR *) RCC_Device[ RCC_PLLCFGR ]) -> PLLN = 336; the value is wrong and the PLL is not configured correctly
2022-05-01T19:10:53 < Posterdati> this is the only case that this mechanism to read/write memory fails
2022-05-01T19:11:52 < Posterdati> the RCC library is here: https://paste.debian.net/1239595/
2022-05-01T19:27:30 < Posterdati> ?
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2022-05-01T19:49:09 < catphish> Posterdati: which write isn't working correctly?
2022-05-01T19:51:04 < Posterdati> :(
2022-05-01T19:51:08 < Posterdati> into PLLN
2022-05-01T19:51:51 < Posterdati> the system.cpp now is working but the code is not directly use -> PLLN to write it copies the entire PLLCFGR register into device memory
2022-05-01T19:54:12 < catphish> where is RCC::tRCC_PLLCFGR defined?
2022-05-01T19:54:47 < Posterdati> in stm32f4xx_rcc.hpp which I posted  too
2022-05-01T19:55:08 < catphish> oh, i see it now, thanks
2022-05-01T20:00:29 < jpa-> Posterdati: to me it seems like RCC_Device is declared as an extern class, but then you proceed to index into it by   RCC_Device[RCC_PLLCFGR]   and then cast that to a pointer, which seems very strange to me
2022-05-01T20:00:48 < jpa-> does it actually get you correct address if you assign the left side of -> to a variable?
2022-05-01T20:01:25 < Posterdati> operator[] returns a pointer to the base register + offset
2022-05-01T20:01:40 < jpa-> your second paste does not show any operator[]
2022-05-01T20:01:42 < Posterdati> a pointer to uint32_t
2022-05-01T20:02:03 < Posterdati> jpa-: because RCC is a subclass of class device
2022-05-01T20:02:10 < jpa-> ok
2022-05-01T20:02:16 < Posterdati> which implements operator[]
2022-05-01T20:02:19 < jpa-> so does it get the correct address or not?
2022-05-01T20:02:24 < jpa-> that seems the first thing to check
2022-05-01T20:02:43 < Posterdati> https://paste.debian.net/1239606/
2022-05-01T20:03:14 < Posterdati> jpa-: this mechanism is used for every device and it works rok
2022-05-01T20:03:16 < Posterdati> ok
2022-05-01T20:03:34 < jpa-> the way you find errors is subdivide the area where error lies by checking stuff like this
2022-05-01T20:03:53 < jpa-> if you just try to look at a whole codebase to randomly spot the error, you waste a lot of time
2022-05-01T20:04:34 < Posterdati> but
2022-05-01T20:05:14 < Posterdati> this mechanism is working because if you use a simple variable of type tRCC_PLLCFGR it correctly read and write PLLN in it
2022-05-01T20:05:44 < Posterdati> the problem is when you use a pointer
2022-05-01T20:05:57 < jpa-> does the pointer point at correct address?
2022-05-01T20:05:58 < Posterdati> this must be something related to compiler optimizations
2022-05-01T20:06:04 < Posterdati> jpa-: yes
2022-05-01T20:06:09 < jpa-> have you verified it?
2022-05-01T20:06:19 < Posterdati> because other values are correctly written
2022-05-01T20:06:27 < Posterdati> only PLLN is wrong
2022-05-01T20:06:50 < Posterdati> PLLN is 9 bit
2022-05-01T20:07:03 < Posterdati> but only the first 8 bits are written and garbled
2022-05-01T20:09:28 < jpa-> also, your code makes cube and LaurenceB seem sane, which is quite an achievement
2022-05-01T20:10:04 < jpa-> that amount of casting is a very easy way to hide mistakes
2022-05-01T20:13:12 < Posterdati> anyway this is not related to my problem
2022-05-01T20:15:38 < catphish> i don't have any easy answers, the obvious thing is 1) check the memory address you're dereferencing is what you expect and 2) disassemble to see what it really does, as compared to using the other setter
2022-05-01T20:16:44 < jpa-> https://godbolt.org/z/c8WaTn6fY   GCC does have a fun way of executing that write, but i don't see it immediately causing problems in this specific case
2022-05-01T20:19:43 < jpa-> ah, reference manual to the rescue
2022-05-01T20:20:11 < jpa-> "Only half-word and word accesses are allowed to write these bits" for RCC->PLLCFGR
2022-05-01T20:21:06 < jpa-> and when it is declared as a volatile bitfield pointing directly to memory, GCC is free to use byte sized access to it
2022-05-01T20:22:37 < catphish> jpa-: oh yeah, that'll do it, registers aren't like other memory, you can't always write all sizes, but the compiler doesn't know this in your case
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2022-05-01T20:28:10 < Posterdati> so it would be wrong using a tRCC_PLLCFGR variable too
2022-05-01T20:28:37 < jpa-> no, because writing the .PLLCFGR to register is uint32_t
2022-05-01T20:29:05 < jpa-> writing to stack variable with byte access is fine
2022-05-01T20:30:04 < Posterdati> does half word would work?
2022-05-01T20:30:37 < jpa-> according to reference manual, yes - but AFAIK there is no way to specify access size for bitfields
2022-05-01T20:31:51 < Posterdati> which is the sense to have bitfield and not be able to write them directly in memory is disturbing
2022-05-01T20:32:15 < jpa-> writing to volatile bitfields directly results in very bloaty code in any case
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2022-05-01T20:32:51 < jpa-> but yes, C is not very good at direct register access - though i don't know of a language that is better at it, either
2022-05-01T20:33:47 < Posterdati> to solve this maybe is fine to have machine code to read and write 
2022-05-01T20:33:56 < Posterdati> inline asm could solve this
2022-05-01T20:34:31 < jpa-> reading the register as uint32_t to a stack variable, modifying it and writing back seems fine to me
2022-05-01T20:34:37 < jpa-> should also be the most efficient way
2022-05-01T20:36:08 < jpa-> if you are fancy, you can use c++ lambdas like rust does it, though in my opinion it is unreadable mess:  RCC.PLLCFGR.modify([](tRCC_PLLCGR &reg){ reg.PLLN = 123; });
2022-05-01T20:36:41 < Posterdati> no it is bad :)
2022-05-01T20:37:00 < Posterdati> but again you have to use volatile to write back
2022-05-01T20:37:26 < jpa-> once, instead of on every line
2022-05-01T20:37:56 < Posterdati> mmhm, no need to specify volatile in the structures
2022-05-01T20:38:10 < Posterdati> is a simple modification to operator[]\
2022-05-01T20:38:18 < Posterdati> is a simple modification to operator[]
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2022-05-01T20:39:05 < jpa-> what is the actual problem you are trying to solve by rewriting the register definitions in a weird way?
2022-05-01T20:40:06 < Posterdati> I'm trying to write a c++ library only
2022-05-01T20:40:28 < Posterdati> not involving CUBE or the stm c library
2022-05-01T20:40:46 < jpa-> i usually use the header only
2022-05-01T20:41:35 < Posterdati> using bit masks is faster, but not c++ friendly
2022-05-01T20:42:07 < jpa-> bitfield-union-trick is not exactly C++ friendly either, it is undefined behavior in at least constexpr context
2022-05-01T20:42:20 < jpa-> i got bit by that once
2022-05-01T20:42:21 < Posterdati> which I avoid
2022-05-01T20:43:03 < jpa-> if you are autogenerating these from the SVD file, maybe you could just autogenerate setter functions?
2022-05-01T20:43:21 < jpa-> RCC.PLLCFGR.set_PLLN(123);
2022-05-01T20:43:26 < Posterdati> no I'm writing it from scratch
2022-05-01T20:43:47 < Posterdati> by hand
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2022-05-01T20:45:29 < Posterdati> jpa-: from an user point of view this is quite transparent you do not have to deal with any cast or bitfield
2022-05-01T20:45:40 < Posterdati> there are get/set function
2022-05-01T20:45:42 < Posterdati> s
2022-05-01T20:46:31 < jpa-> to me it seems the user is you, and you are dealing with them :)
2022-05-01T20:46:46 < Posterdati> for now
2022-05-01T20:50:55 < Posterdati> this is part of a small OS
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2022-05-01T21:52:26 < zyp> jpa-, added oneof support: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/buI3K
2022-05-01T21:53:47 < zyp> message encoding/decoding functions didn't need any changes :)
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2022-05-01T23:53:37 < Posterdati> jpa-: solved!
2022-05-01T23:54:03 < Posterdati> jpa-: I wrote to a 32 bit pointer instead to a byte one and it seems to work correctly now!
2022-05-01T23:54:23 < Posterdati> (uint32_t *) (m_pBase + offset)
2022-05-01T23:55:03 < Posterdati> offset is the offset of a 32 bit word so if it is = 1 it means the 4th byte, =2 means the 8th byte and so on
2022-05-01T23:56:59 < Posterdati> jpa-: if you look at my code, is it very close at what you said 
--- Day changed ma touko 02 2022
2022-05-02T00:02:02 < karlp> so you're writing to the next register now too?
2022-05-02T00:08:23 < kakium69> morgon
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2022-05-02T00:14:15  * karlp grumbles at zyp not already handling repeated builds: "scons: *** Two environments with different actions were specified for the same target: generated.ld"
2022-05-02T00:20:11 < zyp> sorry :)
2022-05-02T00:20:40 < zyp> but… did you set variant dirs?
2022-05-02T00:20:57 < zyp> otherwise you'll get .o file conflics and so on too?
2022-05-02T00:22:41 < karlp> it's ok, I thought I had a scons example of doign this elsewhere, I'll figure it out
2022-05-02T00:23:03 < karlp> it might hve been that variant dirs is really all I needed. gotta find the right reerence.
2022-05-02T00:23:07 < karlp> I'm 99% sure I've done this before.
2022-05-02T00:23:27 < zyp> https://cgit.jvnv.net/laks_demo?h=multivariant
2022-05-02T00:23:36 < zyp> not sure how well it works with v2 :)
2022-05-02T00:23:58 < jadew> this week I finally understood the need for build systems on linux
2022-05-02T00:24:20 < karlp> you're such a hilarious character to me sometimes jade :)
2022-05-02T00:24:36 < jadew> I'm serious
2022-05-02T00:24:57 < karlp> I know, that's what I love so much :)
2022-05-02T00:25:02 < jadew> it's because you can't do auto-linking, so you need an external tool to figure out what libraries you need
2022-05-02T00:25:36 < jadew> that's basically the biggest problem build systems are solving
2022-05-02T00:25:41 < jadew> which is a non-issue on windows
2022-05-02T00:30:16 < Posterdati> karlp: ?
2022-05-02T00:31:41 < Posterdati> jadew: windows should be banned like kaspersky :)
2022-05-02T00:33:03 < jadew> Posterdati, it shouldn't, it's good to keep something around that works
2022-05-02T00:34:09 < jadew> I installed linux several times last week, haven't had my system crash that many times in the span of a couple of days, as windows has crashed on me in a decade
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2022-05-02T07:19:45 < upgrdman> well this was a total pain the in the ass.  http://farrellf.com/temp/stm32f7_12_channel_oscilloscope.jpg   i'll be so happy when supply chain issues go away...
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--- Log closed ma touko 02 07:28:28 2022
--- Log opened ma touko 02 07:28:44 2022
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2022-05-02T07:56:50 < jpa-> jadew: what's auto-linking?
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2022-05-02T10:20:02 < Posterdati> jadew: never had a linux machine fail or had problems, maybe your installer technichian should study :)
2022-05-02T10:23:17 < Posterdati> or at least change job
2022-05-02T10:42:32 < jpa-> a computer that never had problems? either you haven't used it, or you have very bad memory
2022-05-02T10:45:48 < Posterdati> jpa-: not os problem related, but hardware failures yes
2022-05-02T10:46:00 < Posterdati> jpa-: which aren't related to OS
2022-05-02T10:48:01 < Posterdati> jpa-: for example, before use an UPS I've got a broken/hd per year
2022-05-02T10:49:05 < Posterdati> jpa-: the most strange problem I found on a machine: the sata cables the fails every two years (circa) on an old ATHLON X2 machine :)
2022-05-02T10:49:06 < BrainDamage> upgrdman: did your pcb grow parasitic fungus?
2022-05-02T10:55:38 < Posterdati> upgrdman: we had a boy to do these jobs: he had the patience to do such jobs... :)
2022-05-02T10:56:39 < BrainDamage> the tiny hads of prepubeshent kids fit better labouring on small pcb
2022-05-02T10:59:39 < Posterdati> yes!
2022-05-02T10:59:40 < Posterdati> :)
2022-05-02T11:00:09 < Posterdati> no he was a boy 20 years old :) with thiny hands :) lol
2022-05-02T11:00:43 < Posterdati> better to dig in a coal mine :)
2022-05-02T11:13:55 < jadew> jpa-, auto-linking is when you have macros in your library includes that figure out which library you need
2022-05-02T11:14:28 < jadew> for example it could figure out that you need the one that is compiled with gcc version x, multi-thread
2022-05-02T11:15:12 < jadew> it would then embed that information in the intermediary objects generated from you source files and the linker would then use that information to pull in the required libraries
2022-05-02T11:15:41 < jadew> from what I've read that's not possible on linux because you can't embed that information in the objects
2022-05-02T11:16:52 < jadew> so you have to either figure out which libraries you're going to use and manually link them or use an external tool to do it, like CMake, which basically relies on scripts that tell it what to use based on what you tell it that you need
2022-05-02T11:17:20 < jadew> so if you're building release, it relies on the script to give you the release libraries, rather than the debug ones
2022-05-02T11:18:07 < jadew> generally, autolinking looks like this (this is how I do it anyway):
2022-05-02T11:18:22 < jadew> #define MY_LIB "foo"
2022-05-02T11:18:31 < jadew> #include <autolink.h>
2022-05-02T11:19:06 < jadew> and in autlink you would have the macros that figure it all out
2022-05-02T11:19:11 < jadew> *in autolink.h
2022-05-02T11:19:43 < jadew> this is of course useful if you have a library that can be split into many subcomponents
2022-05-02T11:20:13 < jadew> on linux you might be tempted to link them all under the same archive/library, because you then only have to link one thing, rather than a dozen
2022-05-02T11:20:37 < jadew> but on windows you can just create as many smaller libraries as you have components, and the code will automatically pick up what it needs
2022-05-02T11:22:47 < jadew> Posterdati, I really doubt that claim about machine not failing, any linux user that says that it's either lying or has a very basic machine
2022-05-02T11:23:24 < jadew> for example, on my linux desktop I have to use a script now that resets the states of my monitors, because when I log in, my middle monitor remains off.
2022-05-02T11:24:12 < jadew> there's more, I had to remove some files, because it wasn't coming out of suspend
2022-05-02T11:24:53 < jadew> in fact, it wasn't even suspending, the screens were going dark, while the rest was still running, but it was becoming unresponsive and would need a reboot
2022-05-02T11:25:30 < jadew> same issue on the login screen, sometimes the login would end up on that monitor and I couldn't see what was happening
2022-05-02T11:25:43 < jadew> so I had to login without actually seeing what I'm doing
2022-05-02T11:26:53 < jadew> if you want to, I can start criticizing individual features of the linux desktop, but that's going to be a long bitching session
2022-05-02T11:27:27 < jadew> oh, did I mention how it fucked up soft raid when I installed my distro?
2022-05-02T11:49:51 < jpa-> jadew: hmm, i haven't seen that on windows also, but sounds interesting
2022-05-02T11:49:55 < jpa-> jadew: is that some msvc pragma?
2022-05-02T11:50:19 < jadew> yeah, but other compilers support it too (only on windows and possibly mac tho)
2022-05-02T11:50:34 < jpa-> what is actually in autolink.h?
2022-05-02T11:50:34 < jadew> #pragma comment(lib, "name_of_the_library")
2022-05-02T11:50:38 < jpa-> aha
2022-05-02T11:50:58 < jpa-> anyway, i think there are plenty other purposes for build systems
2022-05-02T11:51:03 < jadew> so in autolink you would have things like #ifdef RELEASE #ifdef MULTI_THREADING etc
2022-05-02T11:51:24 < jpa-> what do you use to invoke the compiler on windows if you don't use a build system?
2022-05-02T11:51:25 < jadew> like I said, I think that's the biggest problem they solve
2022-05-02T11:51:32 < jadew> otherwise you could do just fine with a simple makefile
2022-05-02T11:51:39 < jpa-> makefile is a build system IMO
2022-05-02T11:51:51 < jadew> yeah, but it can be very simple
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2022-05-02T11:52:33 < jadew> you just have to compile your stuff... imagine there's no find_package() and ${PACKAGE_LIBRARIES} crap going on
2022-05-02T11:52:39 < benishor> https://pudding.cool/2022/04/random
2022-05-02T11:52:58 < jpa-> https://github.com/PetteriAimonen/focus-stack/blob/master/Makefile#L10   vs.  https://github.com/PetteriAimonen/focus-stack/blob/master/Makefile.windows#L13   
2022-05-02T11:53:08 < jpa-> how should i fix the windows version so that i don't have to hardcode opencv path?
2022-05-02T11:54:36 < jadew> technically, it would be ideal if opencv asked for its own libraries, then you could just expose the include paths and the library paths to the compiler, but if the library doesn't do that, you can require it yourself from somewhere else in the code
2022-05-02T11:54:51 < jadew> but the compiler and linker would still need to paths to the include and library folders
2022-05-02T11:54:58 < benishor> jpa-: you can't, windows shit is borken
2022-05-02T11:55:08 < jpa-> jadew: so i don't see how autolink helps at all
2022-05-02T11:55:14 < benishor> it needs an environment to be set prior to have paths set
2022-05-02T11:55:21 < benishor> autolink is a bad practice
2022-05-02T11:55:23 < jadew> it helps if the library is built with that in mind
2022-05-02T11:55:28 < jadew> benishor, it's not
2022-05-02T11:55:31 < jadew> consider boost
2022-05-02T11:55:32 < jpa-> but i still need something to set up the paths
2022-05-02T11:55:46 < jpa-> so what's the point, not having to type the dll name?
2022-05-02T11:55:48 < jadew> obviously, but generally those are exposed at OS level
2022-05-02T11:56:04 < jpa-> what library exposes path at OS level on windows?
2022-05-02T11:56:06 < benishor> jpa-: you go to your IDE and manually set them
2022-05-02T11:56:14 < benishor> they get serialized in the project file
2022-05-02T11:56:16 < jadew> jpa-, any library you want to
2022-05-02T11:56:24 < jpa-> at least on linux you can assume that they are in /usr/include, but that's a bad practice - in windows there is no such standard path
2022-05-02T11:56:33 < jadew> personally, if I'm going to install boost, I'm going to expose it for everything
2022-05-02T11:56:44 < jadew> so when I need boost, I just include the header files in my source files
2022-05-02T11:56:49 < benishor> jpa-: that's why many vs versions use that environment I was talking about
2022-05-02T11:56:50 < jadew> and the linking is done automagically
2022-05-02T11:57:08 < jadew> and it doesn't matter what version of boost I switch to next year, the program will still compile
2022-05-02T11:57:09 < benishor> otoh some would use cmake and find packages
2022-05-02T11:57:14 < jadew> and I won't have to change any paths
2022-05-02T11:57:32 < jadew> so in your example, the fault is with opencv for not implementing autolinking
2022-05-02T11:57:42 < jpa-> jadew: hmm yeah, i can kind of see the point on windows where dll name often includes the version number and dynamic library versioning is done that way
2022-05-02T11:58:03 < jpa-> on linux you don't have to change -lopencv_core to anything when version number changes
2022-05-02T11:58:08 < jadew> jpa-, on linux you can't do that, because it gets very tedious
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2022-05-02T11:58:33 < jadew> it would be ideal if you could on linux too, because then you could have multiple versions of the same library, and it would be conflict free
2022-05-02T11:58:46 < jadew> but you can't have that so everything has to use the same shit
2022-05-02T11:58:47 < jpa-> i think they don't do that on linux for other reasons (good or bad), and that's why they don't have such autolink mechanism either
2022-05-02T11:58:58 < benishor> dll hell
2022-05-02T11:59:23 < jpa-> in my experience dynamic library version management is annoying on both linux and windows, but in different ways
2022-05-02T11:59:58 < jpa-> on linux the linker automatically adds the version number to the library reference embedded in the binary
2022-05-02T12:00:07 < jadew> again, boost is the best example, because it's a very complex library that often needs to be versioned, and available for multiple ocmpilers
2022-05-02T12:00:13 < jadew> and on windows you just don't worry about it
2022-05-02T12:00:20 < jadew> on linux you have to figure out what uses what
2022-05-02T12:00:23 < jadew> and which library it is
2022-05-02T12:00:25 < jpa-> so you specify -lopencv_core on linker command line and it becomes libopencv_core.so.4.2 in the binary
2022-05-02T12:01:25 < jpa-> but it's true that the linker versioning has no direct connection to include file versioning, so it is possible to get conflicts if the development computer has multiple versions
2022-05-02T12:02:54 < jadew> benishor, what is this dll hell you're talking about?
2022-05-02T12:04:28 < jpa-> it was early 2000s thing before people stopped installing dlls to windows system directory
2022-05-02T12:06:17 < benishor> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DLL_Hell#DLL_stomping
2022-05-02T12:06:49 < benishor> I was saying that the linux approach of having only one version is better than the windows approach
2022-05-02T12:07:10 < jadew> benishor, it's only better if all your stuff can work with that one version
2022-05-02T12:07:31 < benishor> jadew: of course
2022-05-02T12:08:00 < benishor> but that is not usually a problem. typically when a new release appears, you have to recheck code and re-release
2022-05-02T12:08:21 < BrainDamage> not feasible for commercial software
2022-05-02T12:08:25 < benishor> unless you want to solve all problems by static linking (if situation permits)
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2022-05-02T12:55:31 < karlp> huh, just got pcb vendor spam that didn't have any tracking in the links.
2022-05-02T12:55:42 < karlp> just... plain "here's a service I'm offering, here's a link to it"
2022-05-02T12:58:16 < jadew> the tracking was in the exploit on that link
2022-05-02T12:58:25 < jadew> smile and wave to the camera
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2022-05-02T14:42:59 < BrainDamage> the tracking was in the embedded pics
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2022-05-02T14:54:39 < karlp> you would htink, but... just no.  nothing... https://paste.jvnv.net/view/pQTLJ
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2022-05-02T15:20:36 < Posterdati> jadew: what is a very basic machine?
2022-05-02T15:24:26 < Posterdati> jadew: I'm using linux and *bsd on these architectures: sparc 32 and 64, mips 32 and 64, arm 32 and 64, x86 and x86_64 plus server grade machine and laptop from different brand. No even a problem from OS side, then?
2022-05-02T15:24:59 < Posterdati> on the contrary a lot of my customers complain about windows :)
2022-05-02T15:31:19 < Posterdati> jadew: if you do not know how linux works and aren't able to install and configure it properly, it is not a linux fault, use windows and don't bother :)
2022-05-02T15:39:52 < jpa-> karlp: what's the point in tracking links when they'll just spam every address anyway - and tracking links probably trigger spam filters more easily
2022-05-02T15:40:44 < jpa-> Posterdati: if you don't know how to use and configure PLLCFGR correctly, use arduino and don't bother? :)
2022-05-02T15:41:29 < Posterdati> jpa-: ;) unrelated since it was not my fault :)
2022-05-02T15:41:52 < jpa-> it definitely was your fault
2022-05-02T15:42:01 < Posterdati> jpa-: why?
2022-05-02T15:42:08 < jpa-> probably even more so than jadew's linux problems being his fault
2022-05-02T15:42:18 < jpa-> Posterdati: you wrote the code with the bug
2022-05-02T15:42:25 < Posterdati> jpa-: I do not think so
2022-05-02T15:42:54 < Posterdati> jpa-: I wrote a correct code instead it should work
2022-05-02T15:43:57 < Posterdati> :)
2022-05-02T15:43:59 < jpa-> yeah, i bet jadew installed correctly also
2022-05-02T15:44:13 < Posterdati> maybe
2022-05-02T15:44:17 < Posterdati> who knows?
2022-05-02T15:47:00 < zyp> jpa-, if I want to add a «well known» type to protobuf, do I just make an empty placeholder message with a tag to tell the generator not to emit it?
2022-05-02T15:54:09 < zyp> although I'm not sure it makes sense to do that, I think I'll rather just make multiple storage classes for bytes
2022-05-02T15:56:38 < zyp> I could e.g. make a bytes object that instead of copying the payload, just stores a span or a pair of iterators to the original message, and then just run a second decoding pass on those
2022-05-02T16:00:46 < jpa-> i would add a custom option to the field to specify what your generator should do with it
2022-05-02T16:01:00 < jpa-> that way any other language generator will just generate the bytes field as normal
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2022-05-02T16:06:34 < zyp> makes sense
2022-05-02T16:11:41 < karlp> jpa-: fair point, still unusual, I mean, even just a tracking link for he entire campaign?
2022-05-02T16:13:52 < zyp> jpa-, what I have in mind is the rpc protocol, I figure it makes sense to define a message type something like this: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/0UmUC
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2022-05-02T16:17:53 < zyp> I figure the minimal case is a blocking unidirectional RPC with a single service, where the messages follows a strict call/response/call/response pattern, in which case only the method and payload fields need to be specified (and those will also be left out if you're calling method 0 with an empty payload)
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2022-05-02T16:20:50 < zyp> if the server is async and allows concurrent calls, caller can supply an id to match for in responses
2022-05-02T16:21:47 < zyp> and if there's calls with streaming inputs it'd be useful for the server to provide the index of the active handler in an array or whatever
2022-05-02T16:23:38 < zyp> anyway, point is that there's benefit in using protobuf for the RPC layer as well, and what I'd like to optimize is to avoid copying the payload data twice
2022-05-02T16:25:21 < zyp> input is easy since the payload can just contain a zero-copy view into the original encoded message, but I'm not sure how to do output :)
2022-05-02T16:28:50 < jpa-> you could generate a field that can take pointer to encoder instance
2022-05-02T16:29:25 < zyp> yeah, i.e. putting encode() and size() callbacks into the field
2022-05-02T16:30:03 < jpa-> yeah
2022-05-02T16:31:03 < jpa-> though if i was doing this with nanopb, i would just encode the header message without payload and then call encode_tag(payload_tag, wiretype_string); encode_submessage(payload_msg);
2022-05-02T16:33:52 < zyp> yeah, that'd be something like msg.encode(it, end) && message_base::encode_field(it, end, tag_t {6, tag_t::length_delimited}, payload_msg);
2022-05-02T16:38:42 < zyp> any thoughts about the rpc stuff in general?
2022-05-02T16:39:57 < zyp> as I understand it the existing stuff relies on name matching for service/method names, but I don't want to do that, so I'm planning to add service and method numbers through custom options like for fields
2022-05-02T16:40:36 < jpa-> makes sense
2022-05-02T16:41:46 < jpa-> it has always felt weird to me that they have numbers for everything except the services
2022-05-02T16:42:22 < zyp> I'm not sure how grpc works, but I suspect it builds urls from service/method
2022-05-02T16:42:40 < jpa-> yeah, and the earlier google's rpc stuff did something similar
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2022-05-02T16:42:55 < jpa-> i've never used either of them
2022-05-02T16:43:50 < zyp> me neither, but I've tried to use nanopb in a rpc-like manner by bundling everything up in a Request and a Response message with a big oneof each :)
2022-05-02T16:45:40 < jpa-> http://jpa.kapsi.fi/svn/paatti-chibios/rpc/paatti.proto  i had the commands in an enum and then connected them to message types by just appending Request or Response to the name :)
2022-05-02T16:45:52 < zyp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/yIfD9
2022-05-02T18:01:47 < Steffanx> Is that the project you invented nanopb for, jpa- ?
2022-05-02T18:13:53 < jpa-> Steffanx: yeah
2022-05-02T18:14:10 < jpa-> i've only ever used nanopb twice, and didn't finish either project
2022-05-02T18:14:45 < jpa-> the only time i've actually used protobuf for something real, i wrote a new proprietary library
2022-05-02T18:17:46 < jadew> jpa-, example of autolink from my own library: http://5.12.164.45/stuff/autolink.txt
2022-05-02T18:18:38 < jadew> each header file that has implementation in a cpp file will include it after defining RCC_LIB to the library name that cpp belongs to
2022-05-02T18:19:08 < jadew> so whenever I include a header file from this library collection, each header file and their dependencies will always make sure the implementation is available
2022-05-02T18:20:40 < jadew> I compile that library in all those variants, (x32, x64) * (dll, static) * (debug, release)
2022-05-02T18:21:03 < jadew> so there are 8 variants of each library and I never care about that when I'm writing something that depends on it
2022-05-02T18:21:33 < jadew> I just include <rcc/myshit.h> and worry about important stuff
2022-05-02T18:22:40 < c10ud> what about rust and hare
2022-05-02T18:23:02 < jadew> never used them, but rust is on my to-check list
2022-05-02T18:23:06 < jadew> hare - never heard of it
2022-05-02T18:23:30 < c10ud> sorry, I was just trying to be funny here <hides>
2022-05-02T18:23:42 < jadew> I know
2022-05-02T18:30:56 < jadew> anyway, my point was that all you need to compile this is CC main.cpp
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2022-05-02T18:37:03 < kakium69> somebody else than lurencer tried to be funny on the channel?
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2022-05-02T18:37:46 < kakium69> lift lurencer ban. I think he has cooled down so we can keep him 2 days
2022-05-02T18:38:21 < jadew> where does he go when he's banned?
2022-05-02T18:39:28 < kakium69> he is in inferno
2022-05-02T18:39:49 < kakium69> just endlessly scrolling chans
2022-05-02T18:43:20 < kakium69> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iw17c70uJes musics
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2022-05-02T18:58:37 < kakium69> zyp: ping
2022-05-02T18:59:24 < zyp> sup
2022-05-02T19:02:02 < kakium69> can you give me a push yet again?
2022-05-02T19:02:22 < jadew> git push
2022-05-02T19:02:26 < zyp> into a lake?
2022-05-02T19:02:40 < kakium69> yes down the cliff
2022-05-02T19:05:14 < kakium69> I fixed all errors but linker fails
2022-05-02T19:05:36 < zyp> link with g++, not gcc
2022-05-02T19:05:44 < kakium69> lets see
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2022-05-02T19:20:35 < kakium69>  /usr/bin/g++ -fdiagnostics-color=always -std=c++2a -Wunused -pedantic -g /home/janne/vscode_projects/helloworld/main.cpp -o /home/janne/vscode_projects/helloworld/main
2022-05-02T19:20:39 < kakium69> my build command
2022-05-02T19:21:35 < zyp> you didn't tell me what linker errors you actually get
2022-05-02T19:23:15 < kakium69> collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
2022-05-02T19:23:57 < zyp> that's the most useless line of them all
2022-05-02T19:23:57 < kakium69> I googled it now for me and it means usually unresolved symbols
2022-05-02T19:24:13 < zyp> yeah, the interesting ones are the lines telling you which symbols
2022-05-02T19:24:23 < kakium69> virtual functions
2022-05-02T19:24:25 < kakium69> all of them
2022-05-02T19:25:19 < zyp> how about just pastebinning the errors?
2022-05-02T19:26:25 < kakium69> :)
2022-05-02T19:26:30 < kakium69> as you wish
2022-05-02T19:27:24 < kakium69> https://pastebin.com/Ax6U8ghM
2022-05-02T19:28:00 < zyp> what the fuck
2022-05-02T19:29:13 < kakium69> yes
2022-05-02T19:29:30 < jpa-> zyp: you have inspired the whole channel to write their own C++ hardware wrappers; now you must guide your disciples
2022-05-02T19:29:38 < kakium69> could my templates be too much for the linker?
2022-05-02T19:29:58 < kakium69> I see now it says nonsense has undefined reference to template nonsense
2022-05-02T19:30:00 < jadew> kakium69, templates are solved by the compiler
2022-05-02T19:30:17 < jadew> the linker isn't finding something because it's missing - it's not defined in any of the generated objects
2022-05-02T19:30:17 < zyp> no, you're just doing something dumb, but whatever it is is drowning in noise
2022-05-02T19:30:51 < kakium69> I upload my codes
2022-05-02T19:35:34 < kakium69> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1De4TIgXIENkEVfEVmc5o_9GP99V6_BCS?usp=sharing
2022-05-02T19:37:21 < jadew> Posterdati, here's another stupid issue: the save file dialog starts with the save button disabled
2022-05-02T19:37:23 < Steffanx> You should share screenshots. Thats the way to share c++ codes.
2022-05-02T19:37:50 < jadew> I have to change the file name somehow so it becomes enabled
2022-05-02T19:38:05 < jadew> or pastebins
2022-05-02T19:39:26 < kakium69> Steffanx: I used to do that
2022-05-02T19:39:57 < kakium69> but remember to take the screenshot with camera from computer screen!!
2022-05-02T19:44:54 < kakium69> it's the pro way
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2022-05-02T19:47:40 < kakium69> in olden days they shared code on paper
2022-05-02T19:47:47 < kakium69> sometimes written with pen
2022-05-02T19:50:26 < jadew> kakium69, it looks like you forgot to declare your virtual methods as pure
2022-05-02T19:50:30 < jadew> and the implementation is missin
2022-05-02T19:50:35 < kakium69> pure
2022-05-02T19:50:38 < jadew> or am I missing something?
2022-05-02T19:50:42 < kakium69> probs not
2022-05-02T19:51:09 < kakium69> should base class virtual function have implementation?
2022-05-02T19:51:11 < jadew> in class Motorspeed: virtual void board_power_pin_enable_output_driver(void);
2022-05-02T19:51:17 < jadew> where's the implementation?
2022-05-02T19:51:21 < kakium69> main
2022-05-02T19:51:49 < jadew> if it's not meant to have one for Motorspeed, then declare it pure
2022-05-02T19:51:57 < jadew> virtual void board_power_pin_enable_output_driver(void) = 0;
2022-05-02T19:52:16 < kakium69> :o
2022-05-02T19:52:19 < kakium69> never seen that
2022-05-02T19:53:09 < jadew> read up on abstract classes if you want the whole picture
2022-05-02T19:54:23 < kakium69> it boilds
2022-05-02T19:54:25 < kakium69> !
2022-05-02T19:54:30 < jadew> :)
2022-05-02T19:54:32 < kakium69> thanks
2022-05-02T19:54:35 < jadew> np
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2022-05-02T21:12:14 < benishor> jadew: regarding http://5.12.164.45/stuff/autolink.txt, I would consider that to be the job of the build system
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2022-05-02T21:32:40 < jadew> benishor, you mean your job, when you have to employ a build system and configure it
2022-05-02T21:34:27 < jadew> is it really better to rely on cmake files that are being found wherever, than to rely on classic include and library paths, and the libraries themselves instructing the compiler what to use?
2022-05-02T21:35:04 < jadew> *the compiler and the linker
2022-05-02T21:35:12 < benishor> I do get the convenience you aim for but I would rather be explicit
2022-05-02T21:35:21 < benishor> especially when working with other people
2022-05-02T21:35:31 < jadew> you can be explicit if you want to, but there's nothing explicit about build systems
2022-05-02T21:35:37 < jadew> they link whatever they can find
2022-05-02T21:35:44 < benishor> oh, but you can be very explicit
2022-05-02T21:35:54 < benishor> pointing to the lib path you want
2022-05-02T21:36:03 < jadew> you can still be explicit with autolinking - you can disable it if you want to
2022-05-02T21:36:05 < benishor> or the particular lib archive
2022-05-02T21:36:21 < benishor> yes, but it's natural to look for building details in a build system
2022-05-02T21:36:24 < benishor> not in source code
2022-05-02T21:37:00 < jadew> I disagree
2022-05-02T21:37:11 < jadew> building systems build source code into binaries
2022-05-02T21:37:19 < benishor> we agree to disagree then
2022-05-02T21:37:40 < benishor> IMO it breaks POLA 
2022-05-02T21:37:43 < jadew> the main reason you need such complex build systems is because the compiler fails to do its job the first time and link things
2022-05-02T21:38:37 < jadew> it doesn't, I'm not surprised when shit doesn't compile on linux, and I'm still not surprised when it magically does on windows
2022-05-02T21:39:08 < jadew> but yes, I can see how that could be a surprise on linux
2022-05-02T21:39:36 < jadew> "oh crap, it just worked?" <baffled face>
2022-05-02T21:40:04 < benishor> sorry, my little one wreaked havoc around
2022-05-02T21:40:28 < benishor> this is one thing that linux does right, the "magic" part
2022-05-02T21:40:35 < benishor> there's no magic in linux
2022-05-02T21:41:13 < jadew> should put that quote in a frame
2022-05-02T21:41:23 < benishor> this means less assumptions as to how things work
2022-05-02T21:41:57 < jadew> there are no assumptions, it's a utility that makes your life easier
2022-05-02T21:42:29 < jadew> the assumption is that... stuff should work without much hassle - I think that's a reasonable assumption to make at this time in history
2022-05-02T21:42:30 < benishor> I refer as magic to things such as convention over configuration
2022-05-02T21:42:43 < benishor> ofc everyone just wants things to work right out of the box
2022-05-02T21:42:45 < jadew> I know what you mean, but I think it applies on a much deeper level :)
2022-05-02T21:42:47 < benishor> but it's not a trivial issue
2022-05-02T21:42:56 < jadew> it kinda is... that's my point
2022-05-02T21:42:58 < benishor> or at least not for all cases
2022-05-02T21:43:03 < jadew> all my shit works out of the box on windows
2022-05-02T21:43:07 < jadew> I install boost, it works
2022-05-02T21:43:16 < benishor> but does it work equally well on all platforms? 
2022-05-02T21:43:17 < jadew> I install a new version of boost, both my old stuff and my new stuff works
2022-05-02T21:43:19 < jadew> no need to recompile
2022-05-02T21:43:23 < jadew> and if I do, it still works
2022-05-02T21:43:25 < jadew> nothing breaks
2022-05-02T21:43:39 < jadew> on all windows platforms, yes
2022-05-02T21:44:46 < jadew> on linux I have to figure out which variant of the boost library I need and make a long line list of libraries to link, manually, or rely on a build system to figure out
2022-05-02T21:45:12 < jadew> but it won't do it based on the code - I will have to tell it which components I'm using in the code
2022-05-02T21:45:23 < jadew> so... I kind of have to maintain both the source code and the build system
2022-05-02T21:45:28 < benishor> so you use both 
2022-05-02T21:45:32 < benishor> great
2022-05-02T21:45:43 < jadew> it's useless work
2022-05-02T21:46:04 < benishor> ok, it's a matter of taste and constraints
2022-05-02T21:46:09 < benishor> if it works for you then fine
2022-05-02T21:47:06 < kakium69> jadew: how do I make constant pointer to function? when I try to initialize constant pointer to function it says &function is not a variable?
2022-05-02T21:47:38 < jadew> it's an awkward sytanx, look it up
2022-05-02T21:47:58 < kakium69> void (*const pfunction)(int) = &function;
2022-05-02T21:47:58 < jadew> void (*fun_ptr)(int) = &fun;
2022-05-02T21:48:04 < jadew> const*
2022-05-02T21:48:06 < jadew> try that
2022-05-02T21:48:22 < kakium69> const* fun_ptr?
2022-05-02T21:48:27 < benishor> why aren't you using std::function though
2022-05-02T21:48:28 < jadew> yeah, try that instead
2022-05-02T21:48:43 < jadew> yeah, std::function would be my go-to as well
2022-05-02T21:49:28 < jadew> but let me know if the const* thing worked, I'm curious
2022-05-02T21:49:42 < benishor> it ought
2022-05-02T21:50:30 < jadew> the function pointer syntax is probably the worst thing in C/C++
2022-05-02T21:50:37 < kakium69> nope
2022-05-02T21:50:39 < kakium69> error: expected unqualified-id before ‘const’
2022-05-02T21:51:14 < PaulFertser> kakium69: example compiles in both C and C++ modes it seems.
2022-05-02T21:51:26 < kakium69> which example?
2022-05-02T21:51:34 < PaulFertser> < kakium69> void (*const pfunction)(int) = &function;
2022-05-02T21:51:43 < kakium69> yes that is the correct one
2022-05-02T21:52:05 < jadew> looks disgusting
2022-05-02T21:52:07 < PaulFertser> What is your question then?
2022-05-02T21:52:24 < kakium69> correct one *according to internets
2022-05-02T21:53:35 < kakium69> because ‘callback_test’ is not a variable
2022-05-02T21:53:36 < kakium69>    18 | MTT::pwm_t (*const pcallback_test)(MTT::controller_interval_t, MTT::state_t, MTT::ramp_t, MTT::pwm_t, MTT::feedback_t) = &callback_test;
2022-05-02T21:54:01 < jadew> use std::function like benishor said
2022-05-02T21:54:34 < kakium69> yes
2022-05-02T21:55:42 < benishor> hey PaulFertser, Maxim sent a follow-up email with bought stations
2022-05-02T21:56:23 < benishor> nice to see reifications for a change
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2022-05-02T21:59:56 < PaulFertser> benishor: great to hear!
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2022-05-02T22:17:48 < catphish> morning
2022-05-02T22:19:14 < Steffanx> Gooday Sir
2022-05-02T22:20:20 < catphish> i had a wasted day today, seem to have destroyed a tesla battery charger, though not really sure what's happened to it
2022-05-02T22:25:28 < Steffanx> maybe it wasnt a waste, youll never know.
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2022-05-02T22:46:30 < kakium69> morgon
2022-05-02T22:47:49 < kakium69> catphish: what did you dones?
2022-05-02T22:48:20 < catphish> kakium69: wish i knew, set up charger, it started charging, now it's broken :(
2022-05-02T22:48:33 < catphish> https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39815#p39815
2022-05-02T22:49:28 < kakium69> does ac path have unaccounted inductance?
2022-05-02T22:49:54 < catphish> i have no idea
2022-05-02T22:50:22 < catphish> but my suspicion is that even if it did, it should be isolated from the low voltage control systems, so it shouldn't cause a communication error
2022-05-02T22:50:43 < kakium69> yes
2022-05-02T22:51:12 < kakium69> grounds and commons good?
2022-05-02T22:51:21 < kakium69> all connected
2022-05-02T22:51:38 < catphish> yep
2022-05-02T22:51:51 < catphish> it's really all internal though :(
2022-05-02T22:52:12 < kakium69> hmm you lost canbus tranceivers?
2022-05-02T22:52:21 < catphish> i'll likely need to look at the CAN line and see what's happening with the transceivers
2022-05-02T22:52:45 < kakium69> I don't think your ground is superb
2022-05-02T22:53:31 < catphish> i just can't think of a likely scenario that could have killed it
2022-05-02T22:54:27 < catphish> maybe... an inductive spike in the AC voltage passed through a transformer to the 12V power supply, but then also through the internal SMPS and damaged a CAN transceiver?
2022-05-02T22:54:35 < catphish> i feel like there should be a simpler explaination
2022-05-02T22:55:42 < kakium69> I think your can nodes are not tied together tightly enough
2022-05-02T22:56:15 < kakium69> also were you wired into car with laptop or something?
2022-05-02T22:57:16 < kakium69> providing secondary ground or something
2022-05-02T22:57:26 < catphish> no, this is all internal to the charger
2022-05-02T22:57:32 < catphish> there's really no wiring to be missing
2022-05-02T22:57:45 < kakium69> it's stock charger?
2022-05-02T22:57:59 < catphish> stock chrger with an open source replacement logic board
2022-05-02T22:59:07 < catphish> it worked for a few minutes, and stopped working the same time the AC fise blew
2022-05-02T22:59:19 < catphish> i just can't correlate the 2 thing
2022-05-02T22:59:48 < catphish> it's essentially 4 completely independent devices connected by CAN
2022-05-02T23:00:09 < catphish> 3 x AC-DC converters (stock tesla) and a controller board (open source)
2022-05-02T23:00:31 < catphish> (in one box, connected by OEM wiring)
2022-05-02T23:01:00 < kakium69> and the controller board failed?
2022-05-02T23:01:06 < kakium69> any url to that?
2022-05-02T23:01:17 < catphish> the logic board has its own independent 12V supply, and provides low voltage DC power to the 3 power modules
2022-05-02T23:01:35 < catphish> the 3 power modules then each have an AC supply, which they convert to battery charging DC voltage
2022-05-02T23:02:03 < catphish> the ACfuse for the power stages blew
2022-05-02T23:02:14 < kakium69> want to see schematic for that controller
2022-05-02T23:02:20 < catphish> https://openinverter.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S/X_GEN2_Charger
2022-05-02T23:02:24 < catphish> that's the overall charger
2022-05-02T23:02:54 < catphish> control board: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/damienmaguire/Tesla-Charger/master/V5/Charger_Gen2_V5%20-%20Schematic.pdf
2022-05-02T23:03:13 < kakium69> The Tesla chargers are very sensitive to grounding. The case MUST be connected to vehicle 12v ground AND evse earth/ground when charging
2022-05-02T23:03:23 < kakium69> whatever that means
2022-05-02T23:04:39 < catphish> that's very interesting, because i did not explicitly connect the low voltage GND to the casing
2022-05-02T23:06:29 < catphish> i've never done this, and it worked before, but worth a try
2022-05-02T23:06:59 < kakium69> also 65HVD234 is not "robbusted" can tranceiver
2022-05-02T23:07:12 < kakium69> rather plain standard one it seems
2022-05-02T23:07:42 < catphish> this is designed by the same guy that designed the tesla inverter logic board
2022-05-02T23:08:06 < kakium69> it should do probs
2022-05-02T23:08:28 < catphish> (the one that has floating signals into a buffer that drives the main power IGBTs, and all float high)
2022-05-02T23:09:11 < catphish> i wouldn't trust him to design an indicator led.
2022-05-02T23:09:33 < catphish> but still it's the least worst option
2022-05-02T23:10:16 < kakium69> I don't say you need extra robbust can tranceivers in car use I just say it doesn't take much fault to knock those standard voltage range ones out
2022-05-02T23:11:43 < catphish> well i'm puzzled, maybe it suddenly needs more ground, or maybe something got blowed up
2022-05-02T23:12:03 < catphish> also, i learned today that my BMS is insanely sensitive to noise :(
2022-05-02T23:12:50 < catphish> https://i.imgur.com/6CyomfA.png
2022-05-02T23:13:21 < catphish> not sure how to make more noise immune, it's totally non-functional when brushless motor nearby is spinning
2022-05-02T23:14:04 < kakium69> simple capacitive coupling of sudden spike caused by inductance could K.O. those tranceivers and much more if grounds are not propper
2022-05-02T23:14:19 < catphish> *nod*
2022-05-02T23:15:12 < kakium69> you have twisted those chains?
2022-05-02T23:16:40 < kakium69> there was 2 examples for that CMC + DC filter
2022-05-02T23:17:00 < kakium69> one for standard and one for high noise use
2022-05-02T23:17:19 < kakium69> different values for caps or something
2022-05-02T23:17:59 < catphish> kakium69: yes, the differential data lines are twisted
2022-05-02T23:19:23 < catphish> it's worth noting that i had to bypass the 1nF isolation caps, with those in place, the length of the cable is dramatically limited, shorting them i am able to achieve longer runs (this one is about 1m)
2022-05-02T23:19:40 < catphish> but that seems like pretty poor performance
2022-05-02T23:19:50 < catphish> so i guess i've done something else wrong
2022-05-02T23:19:52 < kakium69> how close the first battery the board is?
2022-05-02T23:22:45 < catphish> 1m
2022-05-02T23:23:22 < catphish> that length required the isolation caps to be bypassed, and works, but is very subject to noise
2022-05-02T23:24:43 < kakium69> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjhPkYUnRF8 musics
2022-05-02T23:27:45 < kakium69> catphish: your choke value is wrong
2022-05-02T23:28:18 < catphish> oh is it?
2022-05-02T23:29:02 < kakium69> it appears it is
2022-05-02T23:29:58 < catphish> what are you basing this on?
2022-05-02T23:30:00 < kakium69> but idk if you populated it with datasheet example choke part id
2022-05-02T23:30:12 < catphish> i believe i did
2022-05-02T23:30:20 < kakium69> then it should be fine
2022-05-02T23:30:46 < catphish> i don't like the musics
2022-05-02T23:31:30 < kakium69> too restless?
2022-05-02T23:32:27 < catphish> dunno, just "not to my taste"
2022-05-02T23:33:19 < kakium69> if it came up randomly I wouldn't listen it maybe but it's crystal method so yes
2022-05-02T23:34:22 < kakium69> what signals you have in the same pack of wires catphish?
2022-05-02T23:35:30 < catphish> kakium69: none, but it does skirt close to high voltage high current power lines
2022-05-02T23:36:58 < catphish> kakium69: i think you're correct about the wrong choke
2022-05-02T23:37:18 < kakium69> what did you populate there?
2022-05-02T23:37:46 < kakium69> I think you were about to use the example part id?
2022-05-02T23:38:24 < catphish> my BOM says i used 22uH, but datasheet calls for 50-100uH
2022-05-02T23:38:52 < catphish> i suspect i used a lower inductance part because of stock levels
2022-05-02T23:39:06 < kakium69> of JLC / LCSC?
2022-05-02T23:39:34 < catphish> yes
2022-05-02T23:39:43 < kakium69> can you see your order to confirm
2022-05-02T23:40:42 < kakium69> anyways solution can be as simple as https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001502539995.html throwing these at it until it settles
2022-05-02T23:40:54 < catphish> oh, actually i need to check back, because there are 2 versions of this board, the one i was testing today was an older version
2022-05-02T23:45:55 < catphish> yep, all boards have ACT45B-220-2P-TL003, this is a 22uH part
2022-05-02T23:46:25 < catphish> but... i can't help but feel my problem feel worse than a slightly undersized choke
2022-05-02T23:49:29 -!- emeb_mac [~ericb@ip174-72-120-245.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined ##stm32
2022-05-02T23:52:24 < catphish> my next worry is R1 and R2, are they doing the right thing, to he right extent, i don't really know :(
2022-05-02T23:53:37 < kakium69> Use an automotive grade 50–100 μH common-mode filter minimum for proper operation. To achieve the best
2022-05-02T23:53:38 < kakium69> performance in noisy environments, use dual common-mode filters (100 μH and 470 μH).
2022-05-02T23:53:45 < catphish> for noisy environments they recommend 470uH + 100uH
2022-05-02T23:54:10 < catphish> yeah, i was just reading that, maybe 22uH really isn't suited :(
2022-05-02T23:54:17 < kakium69> throw ferrite clamp at it and see if it flies
2022-05-02T23:54:46 < kakium69> if you have loose cable you can do turns around the clamp
2022-05-02T23:54:54 < kakium69> to multiply the effect
2022-05-02T23:55:20 < catphish> i think this environment is particularly unpleasantly noisy, USB seems to break too
2022-05-02T23:55:33 < catphish> so i guess i need to go all out on the protection
2022-05-02T23:55:51 < kakium69> but the batteries have only one choke
2022-05-02T23:56:18 < catphish> i believe that's correct
2022-05-02T23:56:19 < kakium69> so it's not determined to be extra noisy by the panasonic? guise
2022-05-02T23:56:31 < catphish> LG
2022-05-02T23:56:51 < kakium69> and those batteries have been in a drivetrain before this
2022-05-02T23:57:03 < catphish> indeed
2022-05-02T23:57:11 < kakium69> working flawless
2022-05-02T23:57:29 < kakium69> it's just that 1meter link and undersized choke
2022-05-02T23:57:30 < catphish> one would assume so
2022-05-02T23:57:54 < catphish> i suspect that's the case, in my own vehicle i'm limiting those links to about 200mm
2022-05-02T23:58:31 < catphish> but maybe i need to upgrade the ferrites too
2022-05-02T23:59:34 < kakium69> I dont think there is anything wrong with battery to battery links
--- Day changed ti touko 03 2022
2022-05-03T00:00:17 < catphish> those are only 40mm !
2022-05-03T00:00:28 < catphish> so that probably helps
2022-05-03T00:00:34 < kakium69> indeed
2022-05-03T00:01:15 < catphish> JLC have all the values in stock now
2022-05-03T00:01:35 < catphish> they have the recommended 51uH, and also the 100uH
2022-05-03T00:02:14 < kakium69> are those the same footprint?
2022-05-03T00:02:41 < catphish> yes i think so
2022-05-03T00:02:46 < catphish> i'l see if i can swap one on
2022-05-03T00:02:47 < catphish> *in
2022-05-03T00:03:07 < catphish> the datasheet has some weird suggestions... The total resistance of each COMML±, COMMH± or FAULT_N± lines must be less than 20 Ω (10 Ω on each end
2022-05-03T00:03:07 < catphish> of the signal connection between bq76PL455A-Q1 devices).
2022-05-03T00:03:26 < catphish> how can it be less than 20R when they recommend a 10R resistor at each end
2022-05-03T00:04:18 < kakium69> yes
2022-05-03T00:04:30 -!- splud [~noneya.bi@user/splud] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
2022-05-03T00:04:40 < kakium69> so 10 is fine
2022-05-03T00:04:55 < catphish> and why would they recommend "50–100 μH" but then say to use 470 μH in noisy environments, that's way outside the suggsted range
2022-05-03T00:05:05 < kakium69> 100 + 470
2022-05-03T00:05:17 < catphish> yeah, why 100+470
2022-05-03T00:05:33 < catphish> is that diferent from just 470?
2022-05-03T00:05:42 -!- splud [~noneya.bi@user/splud] has joined ##stm32
2022-05-03T00:05:51 < catphish> or rather, is that different from 570?
2022-05-03T00:05:54 < kakium69> I would look the specific chokes recommended rather
2022-05-03T00:06:00 < kakium69> than the values
2022-05-03T00:06:20 < kakium69> maybe different propperties at different frequency ranges
2022-05-03T00:06:32 < catphish> well they recommend a 51uH part for normal use
2022-05-03T00:06:55 < catphish> i can easily buy that and try it
2022-05-03T00:07:10 < kakium69> buy 100uH one in 100+470 example too
2022-05-03T00:07:26 < catphish> yeah, i agree, all same footprint
2022-05-03T00:07:26 < kakium69> it's same series than 51 one
2022-05-03T00:07:55 < kakium69> and buy various ferrite clamps
2022-05-03T00:07:58 < catphish> based on all available information, i'd expect 100 to work the best here, but that's kinda guesswork, would be nice to test both
2022-05-03T00:08:02 < catphish> yep
2022-05-03T00:08:20 < kakium69> rather than bodging 470 there if it doesnt work
2022-05-03T00:08:39 < kakium69> you can get solid torus ferrites too
2022-05-03T00:08:46 < kakium69> if you can pass wires through
2022-05-03T00:09:31 < catphish> makes sense
2022-05-03T00:09:40 < kakium69> did you read specifics about the twisted pair cable propperties?
2022-05-03T00:10:15 < kakium69> it translates: the concern is pF/ft
2022-05-03T00:10:46 < kakium69> they recommends some canbus specific cable
2022-05-03T00:11:54 < catphish> i don't understand the specifics well enough, but i'm using cable speficied for CAN
2022-05-03T00:13:28 < kakium69> there is equation for capacitance limited maximum lenght of link
2022-05-03T00:17:20 < catphish> so even the recommended cable only permits 6ft
2022-05-03T00:17:38 < kakium69> assuming choke capacitance 18pF, tvs capacitance 2.8pF, cable capacitance from 17-25pF/ft I get 4-6ft
2022-05-03T00:18:34 < kakium69> more than expenteds
2022-05-03T00:19:45 < catphish> but why does it suck?
2022-05-03T00:20:03 < catphish> CAN, ethernet, wet string can all go better than this
2022-05-03T00:20:36 < kakium69> indeed
2022-05-03T00:20:43 < kakium69> can doesn't have chokes
2022-05-03T00:21:05 < kakium69> maybe the signal is low power compared to others
2022-05-03T00:21:18 < catphish> that makes sense
2022-05-03T00:21:34 < kakium69> ethernet has chokes
2022-05-03T00:21:40 < catphish> the 1nF isolation caps and 10R current limiting caps probably don't help
2022-05-03T00:22:24 < catphish> removing the isolation from my end helped a lot, but i'm sure there are better ways to do it, i might manually rework with 100uH choke and 10nF isolaiton
2022-05-03T00:22:31 < upgrdman> are there any cheap "mosfet arrays" ? theres lots of resistor arrays, diode arrays, but transistor arrays seems rare
2022-05-03T00:23:11 < kakium69> upgrdman: how many mosfets you need
2022-05-03T00:23:27 < upgrdman> 4 or 8 or 16
2022-05-03T00:23:44 < upgrdman> digikey has a category, but theyre more expensive than discrete fets
2022-05-03T00:24:03 < kakium69> sure. it's niche
2022-05-03T00:24:03 < upgrdman> surprised there are so16 or ssop16 array for like $0.10
2022-05-03T00:24:10 < upgrdman> *surprised there aren't
2022-05-03T00:24:55 < kakium69> catphish: ethernet is isolated with transformed instead of caps
2022-05-03T00:26:15 < catphish> kakium69: true
2022-05-03T00:26:35 < kakium69> signal amplitude of that battery link is comparable to can but you must do DC isolation so there is only so much signal after that
2022-05-03T00:27:22 < catphish> yeah, the 1nF isolation caps seem like a big hurdle
2022-05-03T00:27:22 < kakium69> you have that canbus cable id?
2022-05-03T00:27:54 < catphish> kakium69: do you know if my 1k pullup/down resistors are likely to be a noticeable impact, i assumed not
2022-05-03T00:28:08 < kakium69> no
2022-05-03T00:28:37 < upgrdman> is there something better than isopropyl alcohol to remove flux residue?
2022-05-03T00:28:43 < kakium69> acetone
2022-05-03T00:28:57 < upgrdman> iso works but leave a cloudy haze if you don't get it perfect
2022-05-03T00:29:00 < catphish> IPA is pretty good
2022-05-03T00:29:00 < upgrdman> orly?
2022-05-03T00:29:13 < kakium69> **may remove more than flux
2022-05-03T00:29:27 < catphish> acetone seems a bit harsh for my taste
2022-05-03T00:30:22 < kakium69> it washes away parts made from lower-tier plastics too
2022-05-03T00:30:53 < kakium69> also cheap silkscreen is removed
2022-05-03T00:32:59 < kakium69> it has not ever damaged ic packages though
2022-05-03T00:33:27 < BrainDamage> aqua regia
2022-05-03T00:33:48 < catphish> IC packages are made from some kind of indestructable superplastic
2022-05-03T00:34:08 < catphish> i have no idea how they take the abuse they do
2022-05-03T00:34:37 < upgrdman> catphish, theyre epoxy
2022-05-03T00:34:58 < upgrdman> iirc warm fuming nitric acid will dissolve it
2022-05-03T00:35:07 < upgrdman> google "ic decapping"
2022-05-03T00:35:56 < catphish> yeah, i've seen that
2022-05-03T00:37:11 < BrainDamage> acqua regia won't leave even the pcb support
2022-05-03T00:37:31 < BrainDamage> or the golden bonding wires
2022-05-03T00:37:43 < BrainDamage> or the silicon dies
2022-05-03T00:37:49 < upgrdman> i wonder if the shit Louis Rossmann uses in his ultrasonic cleaner works better than IPA
2022-05-03T00:38:02 < catphish> if you really want the area clear, detonate a fusion bomb
2022-05-03T00:38:06 < BrainDamage> well, the oxide layer would remain
2022-05-03T00:38:22 < kakium69> BrainDamage: then you can proceed to separate gold and other valuable metals from solution
2022-05-03T00:38:26 < catphish> wait, those may not exist, a fission bomb will work though
2022-05-03T00:38:47 < BrainDamage> fusion bombs exist
2022-05-03T00:38:53 < catphish> oh ok
2022-05-03T00:38:53 < kakium69> h-bomb
2022-05-03T00:38:58 < BrainDamage> and in fact most fission bumbs use fusion too
2022-05-03T00:39:06 < kakium69> ?
2022-05-03T00:39:15 < BrainDamage> teller-ulam design
2022-05-03T00:39:30 < catphish> i don't understand how nuclear fusion can net produce energy, i should probably learn
2022-05-03T00:40:16 < kakium69> are both fission and fusion mass to energy conversion?
2022-05-03T00:40:28 < BrainDamage> the mass of hydrogen + hydrogen is less of mass of helium
2022-05-03T00:40:43 < BrainDamage> the difference in mass lies in the strong atomic force
2022-05-03T00:41:15 < BrainDamage> so when you fuse hydrogen into helium, you get a bit leftover energy, normally in the forms of photons
2022-05-03T00:41:48 < BrainDamage> there's not ever "mass to energy" conversion
2022-05-03T00:41:55 < BrainDamage> that one is a great misunderstanding
2022-05-03T00:42:31 < kakium69> not even fission?
2022-05-03T00:42:38 < BrainDamage> mass is equivalent to energy, but is not energy
2022-05-03T00:43:01 < BrainDamage> no, even fission the difference in mass is given by the difference in the strong nuclear force
2022-05-03T00:43:56 < kakium69> does subatomic particles dissapear or appear?
2022-05-03T00:44:15 < kakium69> if you count the total numbers
2022-05-03T00:44:18 < BrainDamage> energy conservation and mass conservation hold
2022-05-03T00:44:28 < BrainDamage> if you have production, you always have a pair of them
2022-05-03T00:44:40 < BrainDamage> so you get particle + antiparticle, so that total is conserved
2022-05-03T00:45:01 < BrainDamage> so you can eg convert photons to electron + positron
2022-05-03T00:45:45 < BrainDamage> and viceversa, combine electron with positron to get photons
2022-05-03T00:46:19 < BrainDamage> well, not always a pair, sorry, but the balance is so that total sum holds
2022-05-03T00:46:23 < kakium69> where did the positron came from?
2022-05-03T00:46:43 < catphish> what if we do too much nuclear conversions and turn all the mass into energy :'(
2022-05-03T00:46:56 < catphish> what will we do without mass
2022-05-03T00:46:58 < kakium69> chats to energy
2022-05-03T00:47:05 < kakium69> energy to chats
2022-05-03T00:47:20 < BrainDamage> ... I just finished saying that you don't convert energy to mass
2022-05-03T00:47:26 < kakium69> :D
2022-05-03T00:48:02 < BrainDamage> being equivalent doesn't mean "same"
2022-05-03T00:48:34 < BrainDamage> eg a compressed spring, has potential energy, its equivalent mass is higher than an unsprung one
2022-05-03T00:48:52 < kakium69> :o
2022-05-03T00:49:05 < BrainDamage> but that's a weird way to see it, you can just see it as normal spring + potential energy
2022-05-03T00:49:22 < kakium69> that's dope
2022-05-03T00:49:53 < BrainDamage> the effect is ridicolously small tho
2022-05-03T00:50:05 < BrainDamage> you'd need a scale with 16 digits to see it
2022-05-03T00:51:37 < kakium69> catphish: is that canbus cable really small gauge?
2022-05-03T00:52:12 < catphish> kakium69: no, it's quite fat
2022-05-03T00:52:49 < catphish> 0.5-1mm^2 i guess
2022-05-03T00:53:19 < BrainDamage> it's not fat, it's big wired
2022-05-03T00:54:29 < catphish> :)
2022-05-03T00:56:18 < catphish> shopping list https://i.imgur.com/xT4yOLx.png
2022-05-03T00:57:05 < catphish> is it worth reducing the 10R series resistance
2022-05-03T00:57:17 < kakium69> no
2022-05-03T00:57:29 < kakium69> also you are overkilling with that cap
2022-05-03T00:57:44 < catphish> 10nF?
2022-05-03T00:58:03 < kakium69> I wouldn't go order of magnitude off from recommended values
2022-05-03T00:58:34 < kakium69> have some 2 and 4.7 too and try them first
2022-05-03T00:58:42 < catphish> well, 1nF didn't work, short circuit does work
2022-05-03T00:59:11 < catphish> so i was just going big
2022-05-03T00:59:57 < catphish> surely bigger will never work worse, it just mildly increases the chance of damage, right?
2022-05-03T01:00:43 < BrainDamage> if it's a filter cap, bigger can work worse
2022-05-03T01:00:55 < kakium69> dc filters
2022-05-03T01:00:58 < catphish> it's not, it's isolation
2022-05-03T01:01:12 < catphish> (DC blocking)
2022-05-03T01:01:31 < BrainDamage> thing is, cap stops being a cap after you reach its resonance freq
2022-05-03T01:01:41 < BrainDamage> the inductance is fixed by the package
2022-05-03T01:01:47 < BrainDamage> the capacitance is the one you put
2022-05-03T01:02:04 < BrainDamage> so if you increase capacitance, for same package, the resonance freq shifts down
2022-05-03T01:02:22 < BrainDamage> if the resonance freq is sufficiently high, that's no problem
2022-05-03T01:02:31 < BrainDamage> but if it's not, then you'll make things worse
2022-05-03T01:03:27 < BrainDamage> after you reach the resonance freq, from a cap it becomes an inductor
2022-05-03T01:03:40 < kakium69> catphish: they use 0.25-0.3mm2 canbus cables in example
2022-05-03T01:03:45 < upgrdman> ee pros: decoupling caps... is it better to put the vias to VDD/GND "before" or "after" the caps?
2022-05-03T01:04:11 < catphish> upgrdman: via->cap->ic
2022-05-03T01:04:22 < zyp> nope, before
2022-05-03T01:04:29 < catphish> what?
2022-05-03T01:04:38 < zyp> plane connection is more important than decoupling
2022-05-03T01:04:56 < upgrdman> zyp, so put vias closer to the ic?
2022-05-03T01:04:57 < zyp> read some layout guidelines, they are gonna tell you this
2022-05-03T01:04:59 < zyp> yeah
2022-05-03T01:05:00 < catphish> that's the opposite to every example i've seen
2022-05-03T01:05:56 < catphish> lol it seems nobody agrees https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/333191/ic-power-pin-connection-for-noise-immunity-and-decoupling
2022-05-03T01:06:46 < catphish> i personally prefer to put the cap between the via and the IC, but it likely very very rarely matters
2022-05-03T01:07:51 < upgrdman> on my latest stm32 design i'm trying capacitor networks. prolly not the best for parasitic inductance, but i'll have to do more testing to see if it causes me probelms
2022-05-03T01:08:52 < upgrdman> anyone know how expensive a "entry level" pick-n-place should cost?
2022-05-03T01:09:44 < zyp> like $5-10k with feeders to get something useful?
2022-05-03T01:10:06 < upgrdman> k
2022-05-03T01:10:08 < catphish> upgrdman: more than it should cost sadly :(
2022-05-03T01:10:26 < upgrdman> zyp, and would it be able to also pick up from trays, or is that extra
2022-05-03T01:10:28 < zyp> idk really, but I believe that's the numbers I've seen before
2022-05-03T01:11:09 < zyp> picking up from trays should be cheap, feeders make up much of the cost
2022-05-03T01:11:18 < upgrdman> k
2022-05-03T01:11:33 < catphish> i built one once, it sucked :)
2022-05-03T01:11:48 < catphish> but yeah feeders really are important, trays are hassle to configure
2022-05-03T01:13:29 < catphish> BrainDamage: i appreciate your attempt, but i still don't understand how a higher value isolation cap would ever allow less signal
2022-05-03T01:13:51 < BrainDamage> when it becomes an inductor, it blocks your signal too
2022-05-03T01:14:43 < catphish> how do i know when that's a problem?
2022-05-03T01:14:59 < BrainDamage> when the resonance freq is in your bandpass
2022-05-03T01:15:32 < BrainDamage> there should be a table from the datashit manifacturer, or the package's inductance
2022-05-03T01:15:46 < BrainDamage> for the latter, it's the usual 1/(2pisqrt(LC))
2022-05-03T01:16:17 < BrainDamage> since CAN is a simple non-modulated signal, the max freq you'll have is 2/trise
2022-05-03T01:21:26 < catphish> the signal i'm working with is 1MHz manchester encoded i believe
2022-05-03T01:22:16 < BrainDamage> the information, as odd as it may sound, it's in the signal's edges, not the clock freq
2022-05-03T01:22:35 < BrainDamage> the actual freq content will be likely 10x higher or so
2022-05-03T01:24:09 < BrainDamage> anyway, since you know the drive strength of the bus, and likely the capacitance, you'll know the Trise
2022-05-03T01:24:58 < kakium69> can it be true that wire gauge doesn't change capacitance of wire only the ratio between conductor diameter and total diameter with insulation+
2022-05-03T01:25:01 < kakium69> ?
2022-05-03T01:26:58 < kakium69> hard to believe 1meter conductor totaling 2meters diameter with insulation has same capacitance than 1mm conductor totaling 2mm diameter with insulation
2022-05-03T01:27:46 < catphish> what is "insulation" in this case?
2022-05-03T01:27:51 < kakium69> pvc
2022-05-03T01:27:57 < catphish> distance between the 2 conductors?
2022-05-03T01:28:25 < kakium69> not in this equation
2022-05-03T01:28:39 < catphish> well then i call BS on it
2022-05-03T01:29:11 < catphish> because why would PVC make any difference vs air around it, or a vacuum
2022-05-03T01:29:16 < BrainDamage> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitance#Capacitance_of_conductors_with_simple_shapes
2022-05-03T01:29:36 < BrainDamage> the spacing is super important
2022-05-03T01:29:59 < BrainDamage> and so is the diameter
2022-05-03T01:30:49 < kakium69> spacing 0 from out surface to out surface
2022-05-03T01:30:52 < kakium69> I assume
2022-05-03T01:31:51 < kakium69> https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/bq76pl455a.pdf page 101
2022-05-03T01:32:37 < kakium69> mutual capacitance yes
2022-05-03T01:33:33 < BrainDamage> spacing is not 0, it's 2xthe insulation thickness
2022-05-03T01:33:42 < BrainDamage> it's just hidden
2022-05-03T01:33:48 < kakium69> its what I meant
2022-05-03T01:34:09 < BrainDamage> and the result of that formula is not overall capacitance, but capacitance per ft
2022-05-03T01:34:21 < BrainDamage> it's missing a length factor
2022-05-03T01:35:28 < kakium69> it's numerator anyways in the formula
2022-05-03T01:39:58 < kakium69> if I have const method can I write const keyword first?
2022-05-03T01:40:32 < kakium69> const int nonsense(int){}
2022-05-03T01:41:01 < kakium69> intellisense thinks it's fine
2022-05-03T01:41:32 < catphish> what on earth is a const function
2022-05-03T01:41:38 < kakium69> all the examples I have seen do int nonsense const (int){}
2022-05-03T01:43:15 < kakium69> catphish: I'm not totally sure but it's cool so I add it
2022-05-03T01:43:42 < kakium69> it's something like pure but only for scope of object
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2022-05-03T01:44:45 < kakium69> now tell me what is mutable function
2022-05-03T01:48:32 < zyp> bullshit
2022-05-03T01:48:43 < zyp> const int nonsense() is a function returning a const int
2022-05-03T01:48:51 < zyp> which doesn't really make sense
2022-05-03T01:51:29 < kakium69> how did compiler allow this?
2022-05-03T01:51:48 < kakium69> -Wnonsense
2022-05-03T01:52:12 < kakium69> need that when you doing dumdum
2022-05-03T01:52:25 < zyp> I mean, syntactically it's perfectly valid
2022-05-03T01:52:40 < kakium69> yes
2022-05-03T01:52:55 < kakium69> but does it have any use - any?
2022-05-03T01:52:59 < zyp> it's just that returning a const int by value doesn't have any immediately useful uses
2022-05-03T01:53:26 < zyp> if it were a pointer or reference, it'd make a lot of sense
2022-05-03T01:53:33 < kakium69> ah
2022-05-03T01:53:42 < kakium69> it's totally valid then
2022-05-03T01:53:51 < zyp> sure
2022-05-03T01:54:00 < kakium69> you could be doing pointer stuff without casting if that is how you roll
2022-05-03T01:54:07 < kakium69> casting as pointer*
2022-05-03T01:54:18 < zyp> huh?
2022-05-03T01:54:55 < kakium69> doing stuff to pointer value but in integer type
2022-05-03T01:55:12 < zyp> I don't get it
2022-05-03T01:55:58 < kakium69> only amateur things
2022-05-03T01:56:35 < kakium69> zyp: what is mutable function?
2022-05-03T01:57:21 < kakium69> and also my function pointer suddenly works when I don't try to pass it as parameter to template
2022-05-03T01:58:36 < zyp> uh, I don't think functions can be mutable either
2022-05-03T01:59:09 < zyp> a member variable can be mutable, which means it can still be written even if the parent type is const
2022-05-03T01:59:45 < kakium69> *pheff* I was worried there was mutable functions
2022-05-03T02:00:09 < kakium69> my head was about to explode
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2022-05-03T02:07:41 < kakium69> mutable function would have been too meta for me
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2022-05-03T02:25:48 < kakium69> zyp: I shoud not use NULL in c++?
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2022-05-03T07:43:11 < evidlo> anyone know of a simple CLI tool I can use to check if my MCU is responding over a chinese stlinkv2?
2022-05-03T07:43:38 < evidlo> I'm trying st-info --probe, but I see "unknown device" as the description for a connected STM32L552
2022-05-03T07:52:57 < \dev\ice> what does dmesg shows when you connected stm32 device?
2022-05-03T07:55:05 < benishor> also, be careful to power the mcu only from the cheap stlink
2022-05-03T07:55:23 < benishor> afair the vdd pin from the charger provide power, don't sense it
2022-05-03T07:56:00 < evidlo> https://termbin.com/4eo2
2022-05-03T07:56:14 < evidlo> yes I see my programmer in dmesg
2022-05-03T07:59:40 < evidlo> also I'm trying to use it with an STM32L552
2022-05-03T07:59:45 < evidlo> maybe it's not supported?
2022-05-03T08:02:35 < benishor> it is
2022-05-03T08:02:36 < benishor> https://github.com/stlink-org/stlink/issues/1054
2022-05-03T08:02:55 < evidlo> that's L4
2022-05-03T08:02:56 < benishor> are you using an updated stlink package?
2022-05-03T08:03:05 < benishor> right
2022-05-03T08:03:33 < evidlo> I compiled myself from HEAD
2022-05-03T08:03:47 < evidlo> my chip ID is 0x472, which is not in the list: https://github.com/stlink-org/stlink/blob/develop/inc/stm32.h#L119
2022-05-03T08:04:41 < benishor> not cool then
2022-05-03T08:05:27 < benishor> perhaps you can add the id and a device file? I don't know what that looks like though
2022-05-03T08:06:28 < evidlo> there's .chip files which have some basic information about sizes and offsets: https://github.com/stlink-org/stlink/blob/develop/config/chips/F2xx.chip
2022-05-03T08:07:04 < evidlo> so I'll have to add one of those, and some lines to stm32.h probably
2022-05-03T08:07:17 < benishor> that should work
2022-05-03T08:08:00 < benishor> I was given incorrect results by st-link on some f1 boards
2022-05-03T08:08:28 < benishor> memories were incorrectly reported.the fix was to delete /usr/local/stlink/chips
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2022-05-03T12:13:05 < PaulFertser> evidlo: you should be able to debug using OpenOCD without changing anything but for flashing you'd have to add the necessary info to the flash driver. No idea about st-link.
2022-05-03T12:15:23 < mawk> there's a complicated GUI tool if you want evidlo 
2022-05-03T12:15:29 < mawk> that is sure to support what you want
2022-05-03T12:15:43 < Xogium> okay so… this might be OT, but I don't know where else I could ask. I'm charging my tascam pcm recorder via usb on my computer, and if I plug my beyerdynamics headphones in the headphone jack and power up the tascam, I hear a very very annoying sound, parasitic noise in them. Its not a hiss, more like a constant e5 note. It's driving me nut
2022-05-03T12:15:54 < Xogium> would you guys know where that might be coming from and how to stop it ?
2022-05-03T12:16:40 < mawk> in the headphone jack of the pcm recorder you mean Xogium ?
2022-05-03T12:16:55 < mawk> you need some sort of magical ground isolation thing I don't know much about I think
2022-05-03T12:17:08 < Xogium> I'm just glad it doesn't mess up my recordings at the very least. Its only audible through the internal speaker of the tascam or via the headphone jack
2022-05-03T12:17:22 < Xogium> yea
2022-05-03T12:17:40 < mawk> or maybe the hum is coming from the bad USB supply of the PC but I doubt it a bit
2022-05-03T12:17:50 < mawk> try with a wall charger instead of pc port
2022-05-03T12:18:12 < mawk> or else there is such audiofool equipment: https://hifimediy.com/product/usb-isolator/
2022-05-03T12:19:07 < mawk> but this product is a bit crappy
2022-05-03T12:19:12 < mawk> might as well use a wall wart
2022-05-03T12:20:04 < jpa-> E5 note is 660 Hz; pretty common is to hear the USB frame frequency of 1000 Hz which is B5 note
2022-05-03T12:20:39 < Xogium> hmm
2022-05-03T12:20:45 < mawk> then using a power-only cable it would go away
2022-05-03T12:20:47 < jpa-> but could be some power supply making the noise also
2022-05-03T12:20:52 < jpa-> yeah, that is true
2022-05-03T12:21:45 < jpa-> another common source of noise is display backlight PWM - maybe it has the backlight on when charging?
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2022-05-03T12:25:28 < Xogium> hmmm
2022-05-03T12:25:37 < Xogium> possible
2022-05-03T12:26:13 < Xogium> whatever it is, its between my pc and the tascam
2022-05-03T12:26:27 < Xogium> I don't have this with the official tascam psu
2022-05-03T12:31:39 < Xogium> weird as hell…
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2022-05-03T12:36:39 < Xogium> according to the manual, backlight is only active for about 10 seconds
2022-05-03T12:37:22 < Xogium> so if I don't press buttons or anything for 10 seconds it will shut off. I wonder then, if that noise didn't come from it, where did it come from
2022-05-03T12:39:15 < Xogium> ah no even shorter, 5s
2022-05-03T12:39:48 < Xogium> but, y'know… I might set it to no and press the home button to turn it on and off at will
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2022-05-03T15:36:25 < bitmask> mornin'
2022-05-03T15:47:10 < srk> https://github.com/Microsoft/bond
2022-05-03T15:47:11 < srk> zyp: ^
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2022-05-03T15:48:39 < jpa-> "The name's Bond, Microsoft Bond"
2022-05-03T15:49:38 < srk> pity it doesn't use Json Bourne
2022-05-03T15:52:35 < jpa-> looks like they have at least 5 mutually incompatible protocols for bond
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2022-05-03T16:11:55 < karlp> https://github.com/microsoft/bond/issues/1131 classic too.
2022-05-03T16:12:10 < karlp> "oh hey, you liked this library we release? yeah, we're removing features from it anyway"
2022-05-03T16:12:27 < karlp> "it's open source so you can see us working on it, not because there's any sort of _community_ or anything"
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2022-05-03T16:26:26 < srk> like if you release something you cannot ever take it back
2022-05-03T16:26:36 < srk> at least they give you a nice deprecation notice
2022-05-03T16:55:08 < karlp> fucking trying to use vscode to debug nodejs.
2022-05-03T16:55:12 < karlp> tutorial doesn't work: https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/nodejs/nodejs-tutorial
2022-05-03T16:56:01 < karlp> symptoms like https://github.com/microsoft/vscode-js-debug/issues/605 except two year s a bunch of versions later...
2022-05-03T17:05:26  * karlp uninstalles node and code and re-installs them again...
2022-05-03T17:05:30 < karlp> I love computers.
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2022-05-03T17:49:30 < mawk> does debugging from the cli work?
2022-05-03T17:49:36 < mawk> or attaching to a remote debugger that you start from the cli
2022-05-03T17:52:41 < karlp> I've never tried debugging js before.
2022-05-03T17:52:56 < karlp> it works in the tutorial demo after reinstalling everything, now just trying to get it to work in my app again
2022-05-03T17:56:27 < karlp> in other news, we must be doing somethign modern, kicad only has built in crystal footprints down to 2012, for 1610 we'll have to, horror, make our own :)
2022-05-03T17:58:14 -!- tomeaton17 [~tomeaton1@2a0c:5bc0:40:2e2f:7158:3530:e9ee:b8eb] has quit [Quit: Client closed]
2022-05-03T18:01:26 < karlp> also, got an update on lead times on one part, come down from 6 months to 3 months! yay
2022-05-03T18:04:45 < Posterdati> hi
2022-05-03T18:05:44 < Posterdati> please help, where is it possible to buy stm32f4-discovery board with the 429 in europe? Thanks!
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2022-05-03T19:02:27 < karlp> and now node debug is busted again.
2022-05-03T19:02:31 < karlp> ok, fuck this
2022-05-03T19:02:42 -!- upgrdman [~upgrdman@047-034-172-219.res.spectrum.com] has joined ##stm32
2022-05-03T19:04:48 < upgrdman> im using the stm32f730. using all 3 ADCs, all independently, via DMA. adc1 doesn't seem to work, reading only one sample, but adc2 and adc3 work perfect. is there anything special about adc1 that needs to be config'd differently?
2022-05-03T19:05:38 < upgrdman> im triggering the ADCs with TIM2
2022-05-03T19:05:47 < upgrdman> my code is: HAL_ADC_Start_DMA(&hadc1, (uint32_t*) &adc1_buffer, 512);
2022-05-03T19:05:47 < upgrdman>   HAL_ADC_Start_DMA(&hadc2, (uint32_t*) &adc2_buffer, 512);
2022-05-03T19:05:47 < upgrdman>   HAL_ADC_Start_DMA(&hadc3, (uint32_t*) &adc3_buffer, 512);
2022-05-03T19:05:47 < upgrdman>   HAL_TIM_Base_Start(&htim2);
2022-05-03T19:05:56 < upgrdman> oops, sorry. meant that as one line.
2022-05-03T19:18:18 < Steffanx> Do you use cube generated init code upgrdman upgrdman ?
2022-05-03T19:18:30 < upgrdman> ya
2022-05-03T19:18:57 < Steffanx> My colleague ran into some issue, but im not sure what it looked like.
2022-05-03T19:19:09 < Steffanx> It was this though https://community.st.com/s/question/0D50X0000BWqGdtSQF/haladcstartdma-init-msp-bug
2022-05-03T19:19:44 < Steffanx> But again, I'm not sure what his issue looked like. All he said was "doesn't work"
2022-05-03T19:22:20 < Steffanx> But who knows if it's relevant here.
2022-05-03T19:23:17 < upgrdman> YES
2022-05-03T19:23:21 < upgrdman> THANK YOU
2022-05-03T19:24:39 < upgrdman> the "top rated answer" fixed it. ya, cube library has a bug, they init DMA *after* init'ing ADC1
2022-05-03T19:25:46 < Steffanx> In the bottom there is the cube way to fix it.. 
2022-05-03T19:25:48 < Steffanx> With the UI
2022-05-03T19:27:02 < upgrdman> nice
2022-05-03T19:28:21 < upgrdman> now i need to figure out another problem. TeraTerm can connect to my USB VCP, but my Java program can't. never had that problem before. time to check the changelog of the Java serial port lib
2022-05-03T19:29:55 < Steffanx> It doesnt do COM > 9 properly?
2022-05-03T19:32:18 < upgrdman> my USB VCP is COM7. but it can connect to COM8 and COM12
2022-05-03T19:35:15 < Steffanx> Ah.
2022-05-03T19:41:55 < jpa-> people have such great suggestions - Issue: Testsuite does not pass  Workaround: Don't run tests
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2022-05-03T19:49:12 < upgrdman> does stm32 usb device need a special driver in windows? it shows up as a COM port, and works in TeraTerm... but it does NOT show up in VMware Workstation. weird.
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2022-05-03T19:50:03 < jpa-> STM32 can implement practically any USB device, need of drivers will depend on that
2022-05-03T19:50:35 < upgrdman> CDC VCP
2022-05-03T19:50:40 < upgrdman> use cube ide/libs
2022-05-03T19:50:44 < upgrdman> using*
2022-05-03T19:51:14 < karlp> are you used to redirecting things into the vm? I mnea, is thisjust normal "please move the usb device to the vm" ?
2022-05-03T19:51:20 < karlp> it can't be in both at once normally.
2022-05-03T19:51:48 < upgrdman> ya i know that
2022-05-03T19:51:52 < upgrdman> it's not in the list in vmware
2022-05-03T19:51:53 < karlp> just checking....
2022-05-03T19:51:54 < upgrdman> so weird
2022-05-03T19:54:30 < upgrdman> so my stm32f730 is being use as a VCP. i don't have "Active SOF" or "Activate VBUS" checked, would that be a problem?
2022-05-03T19:54:46 < jpa-> nope, sounds like windows driver problem
2022-05-03T19:55:49 < upgrdman> weird thing is TeraTerm can connect to it and read/write fine
2022-05-03T19:56:03 < jpa-> do other USB serial port devices show up in vmware list?
2022-05-03T19:56:07 < upgrdman> yes
2022-05-03T19:56:16 < upgrdman> an FTDI one
2022-05-03T19:56:37 < jpa-> do you have any that would use the same CDC ACM driver as the cube example?
2022-05-03T19:58:05 < upgrdman> don't think so
2022-05-03T19:58:10 < upgrdman> i'll try unplugging shit
2022-05-03T19:58:59 < jpa-> also do other new devices show up on vmware list, or is the daemon that monitors for new devices dead?
2022-05-03T20:00:30 < upgrdman> the vmware list updates correctly, daemon not dead
2022-05-03T20:01:37 < karlp> https://www.ti.com/product/ISOUSB211 filling a gap some people had in the past...
2022-05-03T20:02:28 < jpa-> pricey
2022-05-03T20:15:29 -!- ventyl [~ventyl@bband-dyn46.95-103-21.t-com.sk] has joined ##stm32
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2022-05-03T20:49:20 < zyp> Posterdati, distrelec got it: https://www.distrelec.biz/en/discovery-kit-stm32-development-board-arm-cortex-m4-2mb-st-stm32f429i-disc1/p/30176620
2022-05-03T20:50:26 < zyp> karlp, HS even, that's neat
2022-05-03T20:50:33 < zyp> I've only seen LS/FS before
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2022-05-03T21:34:03 < Posterdati> zyp: thanks
2022-05-03T21:54:56 -!- upgrdman [~upgrdman@47.180.47.55] has joined ##stm32
2022-05-03T22:05:39 < upgrdman> earlier i mentioned my stm32f730 running USB VCP code could connect with TeraTerm but not with some other programs. think i found out why.  https://github.com/Ant1882/STM32F429-Tracealyzer-Demo/commit/4cf6591b3bdff098292349874f8c0c8df7802986    https://community.st.com/s/question/0D50X00009XkYSESA3/stm32f7-usb-cdc-vcp-unable-to-open-serial-port
2022-05-03T22:05:49 < upgrdman> i'll have to try when i get home tonight.
2022-05-03T22:36:26 -!- machinehum [~machinehu@2604:3d08:937e:d600::b9ea] has joined ##stm32
2022-05-03T22:36:30 < machinehum> sup
2022-05-03T22:36:39 < upgrdman> sup
2022-05-03T22:41:28 < machinehum> Nothing
2022-05-03T22:41:51 < machinehum> Make a stupid presentation
2022-05-03T23:00:33 < machinehum> https://tinyurl.com/yckn75nf
2022-05-03T23:21:08 -!- kakium69 [~kakium69@37-136-21-235.rev.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##stm32
2022-05-03T23:21:22 < kakium69> night pump
2022-05-03T23:23:24 < machinehum> night pump
2022-05-03T23:24:28 < ventyl> new battery, new carb => starts-like-new car
2022-05-03T23:24:57 < kakium69> I used to hate carbs
2022-05-03T23:25:09 < upgrdman> carb? how old is your car
2022-05-03T23:25:15 < kakium69> now I disassemble and clean carbs every day
2022-05-03T23:25:24 < ventyl> upgrdman: 33 years
2022-05-03T23:25:33 < kakium69> I don't even drive/ride
2022-05-03T23:26:09 < upgrdman> my first car had a carb. it was so nice when i upgrd'd to a decent car a few years later
2022-05-03T23:26:09 < ventyl> Slingshots are easy to disassemble and clean
2022-05-03T23:26:24 < kakium69> jap carbs are fun
2022-05-03T23:26:25 < ventyl> Keihins are hell
2022-05-03T23:26:53 < kakium69> yes
2022-05-03T23:26:58 < kakium69> all my carbs are keihins
2022-05-03T23:27:12 < ventyl> whoever designed them must have been a fucking nutjob
2022-05-03T23:27:23 < ventyl> then someone at Honda made additional fuckup, just to be sure
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2022-05-03T23:28:53 < ventyl> Slingshots don't have any blind holes in them, so it is virtually impossible to clog them
2022-05-03T23:29:13 < kakium69> keihins have
2022-05-03T23:29:16 < kakium69> many many
2022-05-03T23:30:01 < kakium69> I saw some new type of carb in youtubes for cross bikes
2022-05-03T23:30:21 < kakium69> >2022
2022-05-03T23:30:25 < kakium69> >new carb type
2022-05-03T23:30:38 < ventyl> upgrdman: another one has mechanical high pressure gasoline injection
2022-05-03T23:31:02 < kakium69> ventyl: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBuwSkjruk0
2022-05-03T23:38:47 < kakium69> in short: it has metering rod connected to throttle slide in bowl and flow of air changes how hard it pulls fuel from bowl and thats all it does :o
2022-05-03T23:40:18 < kakium69> it probs doesn't even have venturi
2022-05-03T23:43:29 < ventyl> that sounds a lot like bullshit as there is no venturi in CV carb
2022-05-03T23:43:50 < ventyl> slide opening serves the purpose venturi serves on standard downdraft carb
2022-05-03T23:43:56 < kakium69> aah
2022-05-03T23:44:03 < kakium69> I forgot the slide
2022-05-03T23:44:21 < ventyl> also, needle + jet does exactly what metering rod does here
2022-05-03T23:45:20 < kakium69> why my keihins are then so complex
2022-05-03T23:46:21 < kakium69> ventyl: does needle + jet compensate automatically to athmosphere?
2022-05-03T23:46:35 < kakium69> automatically is wrong word though
2022-05-03T23:46:48 < ventyl> yes, it does, in exactly the opposite way you would like it to work
2022-05-03T23:46:58 < ventyl> the higher you go, the richer it becomes
2022-05-03T23:47:42 < kakium69> *intrinsically
2022-05-03T23:48:21 < ventyl> IIRC, the mechanism how this works is that, in between needle and main jet, air is mixed with air. this mixture gets lighter as you go higher and thus is easier to be sucked into carb chamber
2022-05-03T23:48:42 < ventyl> so, the only way how this shit can be different from standard carb is, that there is no emulsion tube
2022-05-03T23:48:58 < ventyl> and carb sucks raw fuel without pre-mixing it with air
2022-05-03T23:49:11 < kakium69> yes
2022-05-03T23:49:24 < kakium69> it doesn't have anything
2022-05-03T23:49:31 < ventyl> therefore the metering rod, which is not very aerodynamic, thus creating vortices, which cause fuel to be mixed more than with standard needle
2022-05-03T23:50:08 < kakium69> it only has float regulated bowl and slide+metering rod
2022-05-03T23:50:26 < kakium69> and some stuff to adjust slide+metering rod
2022-05-03T23:50:57 < ventyl> there are basically just two screws. first which sets stop for slide, second, which sets metering rod position within slide
2022-05-03T23:51:18 < ventyl> former is pretty much standard equipment in two-stroke carbs, latter can typically be done using shims
2022-05-03T23:51:50 < ventyl> one interesting feature is, that it is internally built as four-stroke carb
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2022-05-03T23:52:19 < ventyl> as metering rod setting is essentially the same as fuel screw on standard carbs
2022-05-03T23:52:28 < ventyl> while with two-stroke carbs, there usually is air screw
--- Day changed ke touko 04 2022
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2022-05-04T00:19:50 < kakium69> do I need this pointer with inline methods?
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2022-05-04T00:50:56 < ventyl> h?
2022-05-04T00:51:05 < ventyl> ah, yes, you do
2022-05-04T00:54:56 < kakium69> I don't get any error though
2022-05-04T00:55:37 < kakium69> if I use private variables without this->
2022-05-04T00:55:44 < bitmask> damn copper sulfate is leaking out of the copper
2022-05-04T00:55:44 < bitmask> https://i.imgur.com/iF3iLuA.png?1
2022-05-04T00:55:53 < bitmask> or something thats reacting
2022-05-04T00:56:32 < kakium69> some liquid was trapped in the print?
2022-05-04T00:56:46 < bitmask> in the graphite ink layer
2022-05-04T00:57:04 < kakium69> solvent?
2022-05-04T00:57:15 < bitmask> no its from the plating bath
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2022-05-04T00:57:33 < bitmask> so copper sulfate or just maybe sulfuric acid?
2022-05-04T00:58:12 < kakium69> how are you going to fix the process?
2022-05-04T00:58:13 < bitmask> though if it was just sulfuric acid i dont think a salt would form right
2022-05-04T00:58:27 < bitmask> it just needs to be plated thicker
2022-05-04T00:58:34 < ventyl> kakium69: well, any named object is first resolved within class, if current scope is non-static class method, then current namespace and then parent namespace(s) until global namespace is reached
2022-05-04T00:58:50 < kakium69> ah
2022-05-04T00:58:52 < ventyl> thus using of `this->` is purely optional if your naming is sane
2022-05-04T00:58:53 < bitmask> the problem with that area is thats where I attached the wire so i then plated, sanded it down to try to even it out and then replated but not long enough
2022-05-04T00:59:13 < kakium69> ventyl: is there good practices?
2022-05-04T01:00:06 < kakium69> always this-> ?
2022-05-04T01:00:19 < ventyl> kakium69: i've seen many being used, but the cleanest i've seen was 1) member variable names are prefixed by m_, optionally pointers by m_p and references by m_r 2) setter and getters then get variable name without any set_ / get_ prefix
2022-05-04T01:00:26 < ventyl> then you mostly don't need to use this->
2022-05-04T01:00:51 < ventyl> you'll have m_member and member(T newValue) and T member() const
2022-05-04T01:01:53 < ventyl> then static class variables have prefix s_
2022-05-04T01:02:10 < kakium69> interesting
2022-05-04T01:02:27 < kakium69> you make setter and getter the same name
2022-05-04T01:02:40 < ventyl> yes, why bother with set_ get_ ?
2022-05-04T01:02:40 < kakium69> and the variable itself has prefix
2022-05-04T01:02:47 < ventyl> language has mechanism to handle that
2022-05-04T01:02:55 < ventyl> until you can't afford your getter being const
2022-05-04T01:03:16 < ventyl> um no, it still will work
2022-05-04T01:03:17 < kakium69> what that setter getterer thing has to do with this->
2022-05-04T01:03:48 < ventyl> nothing
2022-05-04T01:04:08 < kakium69> you don't use setters and getters in class methods right
2022-05-04T01:04:13 < ventyl> just in this way, by using prefixes, it is immediately obvious, that you are working with member variable
2022-05-04T01:04:35 < kakium69> what is reference? m_r?
2022-05-04T01:04:38 < ventyl> also, you won't use some random global variable by accident
2022-05-04T01:05:02 < kakium69> what are references?
2022-05-04T01:05:09 < kakium69> is it pointer?
2022-05-04T01:05:11 < ventyl> in that particular code a "reference" was in fact a custom implementation of smart pointers, but in general, reference would be a reference type
2022-05-04T01:05:17 < ventyl> thus T & m_rVariable
2022-05-04T01:05:29 < kakium69> reference type hmm
2022-05-04T01:05:42 < ventyl> reference is a pointer, which pretends, that it is not a pointer
2022-05-04T01:06:13 < ventyl> reference always has to be initialized and NULL reference is an invalid construct, thus it can afford pretending it is not a pointer
2022-05-04T01:06:28 < ventyl> because unless you do very ugly things, there is a guarrantee, that reference is always valid
2022-05-04T01:06:37 < ventyl> no need to do NULL pointer checks
2022-05-04T01:11:28 < kakium69> reference is there to minimize use of pointers?
2022-05-04T01:11:35 < ventyl> kind of
2022-05-04T01:12:17 < ventyl> I would rather say, that reference is there to maximize use of pointers without introducing their disadvantages
2022-05-04T01:14:35 < kakium69> damn
2022-05-04T01:16:15 < ventyl> like, you can have a method void doSomething(std::string input);
2022-05-04T01:16:34 < ventyl> if you call it, it will perform std::string copy, which is quite expensive
2022-05-04T01:16:39 < kakium69> yes
2022-05-04T01:16:49 < ventyl> it will also allocate a lot of space on callee stack
2022-05-04T01:17:03 < ventyl> OR, you can have a method void doSomething(const std::String & input);
2022-05-04T01:17:10 < kakium69> add & and it uses pointer in background
2022-05-04T01:17:40 < kakium69> nice
2022-05-04T01:17:46 < ventyl> this won't perform any copy, internally it is just a pointer, but while reference cannot be uninitialized, you have degree of guarrantee of performing a copy
2022-05-04T01:17:58 < ventyl> so this code is orders of magniture faster
2022-05-04T01:18:25 < kakium69> nice that it can be done in parameters like that
2022-05-04T01:20:09 < ventyl> it is sad, that it has to be stated explicitly
2022-05-04T01:20:48 < ventyl> you almost never pass non-scala type argument by copy
2022-05-04T01:20:48 < karlp> doh, we still haven't modernized ADC shits zyp
2022-05-04T01:21:00 < karlp> I ran short of time when I was workign on WB, 
2022-05-04T01:24:18 < kakium69> ventyl: if things are done non-explicitly it's not c/c++
2022-05-04T01:24:59 < ventyl> sometimes things do work implicitly
2022-05-04T01:26:11 < zyp> karlp, yeah, are you looking at WCH ADC now?
2022-05-04T01:26:28 < kakium69> ventyl: examples?
2022-05-04T01:27:18 < kakium69> compiler optimizations?
2022-05-04T01:27:36 < kakium69> let's assume -O0
2022-05-04T01:28:15 < ventyl> kakium69: you can make compiler deduce template parameters automatically and you can in fact make compiler deduce, that something actually is a template
2022-05-04T01:28:54 < kakium69> what does that mean?
2022-05-04T01:29:15 < ventyl> I have a class with template method, but it can be called without <>
2022-05-04T01:29:30 < ventyl> so it essentially looks like a plain method
2022-05-04T01:30:09 < kakium69> this is in case of template parameters are all typename(s)
2022-05-04T01:30:11 < kakium69> ?
2022-05-04T01:30:33 < kakium69> nice
2022-05-04T01:30:39 < ventyl> in certain cases template parameters can be deduced even if they are not typenames
2022-05-04T01:30:59 < ventyl> IIRC, std::array will deduce array size, which is non-type template argument
2022-05-04T01:31:18 < kakium69> interestings
2022-05-04T01:31:59 < ventyl> and deducibility improves with newer standards too
2022-05-04T01:32:56 < kakium69> c++ is certainly better than when i last tried it before c++11
2022-05-04T01:35:47 < ventyl> yeah back then it was like fred flintstone with dysplasia
2022-05-04T01:36:26 < karlp> zyp: yeah, I think I've just converted stm32 adc,
2022-05-04T01:36:44 < karlp> but I don't have all my old stm32 adc test setups lying aroudn right now, so I'mjust going to pretend it works for now :)
2022-05-04T01:36:58 < karlp> zyp: got frustrated by scons multibuild again, decided to do something "nice and easy"
2022-05-04T01:37:12 < ventyl> :)
2022-05-04T01:37:18 < ventyl> what is scons multibuild?
2022-05-04T01:37:32 < ventyl> code once, build for many targets?
2022-05-04T01:37:38 < karlp> yeah, 
2022-05-04T01:37:45 < ventyl> that is tricky everywhere
2022-05-04T01:37:53 < karlp> not ... that difficult
2022-05-04T01:37:58 < zyp> build for more than one target from the same tree
2022-05-04T01:38:04 < karlp> I mean, yes, it can be tricky
2022-05-04T01:38:09 < karlp> and that's not too unreasonable
2022-05-04T01:38:18 < zyp> which is just a matter of having separate build dirs
2022-05-04T01:38:19 < ventyl> it gets more difficuilt, the smarter the build system tries to be
2022-05-04T01:38:21 < karlp> but I wanted it to be easy with scons, and it was getting tedious so I got annoyed with it.
2022-05-04T01:38:31 < karlp> so I'm ignoring it a bit longer.
2022-05-04T01:38:33 < ventyl> with makefiles, it is dead simple, because makefiles don't assume anything
2022-05-04T01:38:53 < karlp> but I want to make https://github.com/libopencm3/libopencm3-miniblink/ only for laks-riscv....
2022-05-04T01:39:07 < karlp> well, it can be expanded, but at least for riscv that I'm on now.
2022-05-04T01:39:19 < karlp> I mostly just want it so that I know refactorings are still building.
2022-05-04T01:39:30 < ventyl> but if you have stuff like target naming and re-using, then it gets tricky
2022-05-04T01:39:43 < ventyl> I had that problem while migrating from GHS to CMake
2022-05-04T01:39:59 < ventyl> in GHS we had multiple libraries named the same for multiple targets... that didn't work in CMake
2022-05-04T01:40:05 < zyp> I'm planning to eventually make laks put stuff in a dedicated build dir by default
2022-05-04T01:40:38 < zyp> but I'm kinda putting it off because I'm gonna revisit the whole build stuff once C++20 modules are available
2022-05-04T01:41:16 < ventyl> people stuck on pre-C++20 compilers will certainly like you :)
2022-05-04T01:41:37 < zyp> laks v2 is chock full of C++20 already, I don't give a fuck
2022-05-04T01:41:54 < ventyl> ok
2022-05-04T01:42:01 < kakium69> I think I will get all the C++20 features I need for AVR
2022-05-04T01:42:17 < zyp> I moved to C++20 for coroutines, but the other stuff is nice too
2022-05-04T01:42:41 < kakium69> but zyp being zyp ofc will hit every feature of c++20
2022-05-04T01:42:44 < ventyl> I am still OK with C, but certain features look really fugly
2022-05-04T01:42:58 < ventyl> I am not sure if I can make them look prettier with C++
2022-05-04T01:44:08 < zyp> anyway, C++20 modules are available in gcc11 already, supposedly
2022-05-04T01:44:20 < kakium69> why would you be stuck with pre-c++20 compiler though?
2022-05-04T01:44:21 < karlp> zyp: what's kinda cute is that now we've got ch32v307 wher eyou add stm32 peripherals, on the riscv
2022-05-04T01:44:22 < zyp> I'm just holding off until gcc-arm-embedded ships gcc11
2022-05-04T01:44:31 < karlp> and now ch583 riscv with old 8bit peripherals,
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2022-05-04T01:44:43 < karlp> and ch579, cm3 with the same peripherals as the rsicv part.
2022-05-04T01:44:51 < ventyl> kakium69: because you get toolchain from your MCU vendor, which will be some kind of ancient shit
2022-05-04T01:44:58 < karlp> laks' composeable peripherals are going to make that _super_ easy to add part support...
2022-05-04T01:45:10 < ventyl> because this is the first version they managed to hack to build their shit
2022-05-04T01:45:48 < zyp> karlp, yeah
2022-05-04T01:45:48 < ventyl> in one project, I am stuck with gcc 4.something, so no C++14
2022-05-04T01:46:14 < zyp> ventyl, why MCU vendor?
2022-05-04T01:46:24 < kakium69> ventyl: nice
2022-05-04T01:46:32 < zyp> laks is designed to not rely on vendor software
2022-05-04T01:46:42 < ventyl> zyp: it doesn't necessarily need to be MCU vendor, it may be whichever vendor along the path
2022-05-04T01:46:45 < kakium69> I though this was the worst it could be:
2022-05-04T01:46:46 < kakium69> Package: gcc-avr
2022-05-04T01:46:47 < kakium69> Version: 1:5.4.0+Atmel3.6.2-1+b1
2022-05-04T01:46:51 < ventyl> in my case, it is device vendor
2022-05-04T01:47:30 < zyp> grab laks, give it a modern compiler for the right arch with standard libraries and you're good to go
2022-05-04T01:47:54 < ventyl> zyp: that stuff runs on top of linux
2022-05-04T01:47:54 < kakium69> laks waits for nothing
2022-05-04T01:48:13 < ventyl> and I am kinda lazy to build mipsel toolchain on my own
2022-05-04T01:48:17 < zyp> not really comparable then
2022-05-04T01:48:26 < zyp> laks is MCU oriented
2022-05-04T01:48:43 < karlp> zyp: ch569, that usb3 part, has same uart peripheral that i've added support for.
2022-05-04T01:48:46 < ventyl> another reason for being stuck with ancient compiler may be regulatory limitation
2022-05-04T01:48:55 < ventyl> when changing compiler simply becomes way too expensive
2022-05-04T01:48:57 < bitmask> i dont understand how some people can be so FUCKING disgusting
2022-05-04T01:49:54 < ventyl> wtf? why it is 00:49 ?
2022-05-04T01:49:57 < bitmask> my gf's uncle is the biggest piece of shit. he pisses all over the bathroom and doesnt clean up after himself, theres blood all over the toilet seat and he just fucking leaves it there (he gets nosebleeds a lot so im guessing its from that)
2022-05-04T01:51:15 < kakium69> ventyl: is that for some automotive cert thing?
2022-05-04T01:52:13 < ventyl> kakium69: cert in general. wherever all components are qualified, it is almost impossible to change them during the development process
2022-05-04T01:52:25 < ventyl> automotive, medical devices, ...
2022-05-04T01:52:54 < kakium69> it means laks would need cert too
2022-05-04T01:53:48 < kakium69> you don't download random laks from internets for your medical device
2022-05-04T01:54:03 < ventyl> it is not a certification
2022-05-04T01:54:07 < ventyl> it is more like qualification
2022-05-04T01:54:38 < ventyl> we tested it with this particular version of compiler on your target MCU and it works
2022-05-04T01:55:45 < kakium69> yes
2022-05-04T01:57:17  * kakium69 *chuckles* at bitmasks bathroom filled with piss and blood
2022-05-04T02:18:40 < karlp> well, I can hold a lighter under the board, and the temp sensor readings go up...
2022-05-04T02:18:51 < karlp> and it cools down again. going to call that "working adc" ?
2022-05-04T02:22:38 < ventyl> works for me
2022-05-04T02:22:49 < ventyl> as long as you did not burn down the PCB
2022-05-04T02:23:00 < ventyl> 0 PCBs were hurt during making of this driver
2022-05-04T02:31:50 < kakium69> pressurized air could do too
2022-05-04T02:33:07 < kakium69> or something like isopropanol that vaporizes fast
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2022-05-04T14:21:40 < kakium69> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94L5hvJJ8iM cats
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2022-05-04T18:52:59 < upgrdman> are there any compact st-link's that support SWO? like this, but with SWO https://www.ebay.com/itm/373973704735?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item571291e01f:g:SeoAAOSwXeZiLEig&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAAA4CifmPby18J0hqTgMMRH25xOsNx0rcVBzzYZY1fnUmg4BD8hk2DehvgjJFH275%2FBsZhlOpShzNAqegY1hlsrBqQsjhX1%2BmnAYsUXJNW8tmKj5KTh4EjjVbbB%2FKOq8CFL9%2BH7QI6ce0U7FCoq8aFtNghjbN%2BaLZDzem6ZLGGI8102Psb%2FIdZ%2Bit8Lw4%2BRByif5e3CsfO5mMtaoBYE36Rs6WjxOKzlT282yhHp01p
2022-05-04T18:52:59 < upgrdman> c0pp9iT638CjVmg6xXBEJCfrZZ8Q1T2KU15bpJxaItlrBtKrnRuxlVf5uQHl7jBt6sRRb%7Ctkp%3ABFBM5PWg_JFg
2022-05-04T18:55:54 < karlp> wow, I _actually_ got it....
2022-05-04T18:55:56 < karlp> Upload complete, wrote at 42485.52 Bps
2022-05-04T18:56:03 < karlp> back and forth between images, 
2022-05-04T18:56:05 < karlp> fucking finally.
2022-05-04T18:56:22 < karlp> turns otu final issue was mis-interpreting silabs notes, not bluez/hci layer shits.
2022-05-04T18:56:48 < karlp> upgrdman: a snapped off stlink from a nucleo64 does, if that's good enough
2022-05-04T18:57:02 < karlp> stlinkv3-mini too, but stlinkv3 is st only, if that's a concern..
2022-05-04T18:57:14 < upgrdman> hmm
2022-05-04T19:24:31 < ventYl> upgrdman: not stlink, but pico-probe apparently supports SWO
2022-05-04T19:25:11 < upgrdman> does BMP support swo
2022-05-04T19:25:20 < upgrdman> i just realized i have a new unopen bmp, lol
2022-05-04T19:27:51 < Steffanx> It does.
2022-05-04T19:27:56 < upgrdman> nice https://github.com/blackmagic-debug/blackmagic/wiki/Serial-Wire-Debug-TRACESWO-support
2022-05-04T19:27:59 < upgrdman> ya
2022-05-04T19:28:24 < upgrdman> anyone know is cubeide is friendly with a bmp?
2022-05-04T19:29:12 < karlp> BMP still provides like ~zero support for it though, they don't even have the gdb scripts to configure it.
2022-05-04T19:29:41 < upgrdman> lol
2022-05-04T19:38:48 < karlp> orbculum does though, iirc, so, it's workable.
2022-05-04T19:39:49 < jpa-> what baudrates does BMP support?
2022-05-04T19:41:04 < jpa-> i'm still looking for a SWO capture device that would do over 16 Mbps with flexible baudrates (1% increments so that MCU can use any clock frequency)
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2022-05-04T20:21:16 < karlp> stlinkv3?
2022-05-04T20:21:27 < karlp> or poke zyp to hurry up and get an orbtrace out the door....
2022-05-04T20:21:43 < karlp> is 16Mbps where ft2232 and friends cap out?
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2022-05-04T20:36:08 < jpa-> yeah, and even there FT2232 has only few increments like 8, 12, 16 Mbps
2022-05-04T21:22:23 < mawk> write a custom saleae logic interpreter
2022-05-04T21:22:39 < mawk> the hardware is already there, you just need some software to redirect the data
2022-05-04T21:22:50 < mawk> you did it before no? I saw your name in the salaeaeaeaeae marketplace thing
2022-05-04T21:26:08 < Steffanx> he already did it for sigrok.. 
2022-05-04T21:26:27 < Steffanx> but it doestn redirect.
2022-05-04T21:26:43 < mawk> using some linux magic you can present a tty device to the os
2022-05-04T21:26:46 < mawk> and any application can use it
2022-05-04T21:27:03 < mawk> with a master pty on the saleae side, and a slave pty on the application side
2022-05-04T21:40:08 < jpa-> yeah, it works and i've been using it with sigrok
2022-05-04T21:40:20 < jpa-> pretty easy to pipe from the serial decoder to file
2022-05-04T21:41:29 < jpa-> but it's pretty annoying to have to hook up a logic analyzer for the purpose; and at 100 MSps samplerate, it still only works only up to baudrate of 25 Mbps or so
2022-05-04T21:43:29 < zyp> orbtrace doesn't do SWO yet though
2022-05-04T21:43:49 < zyp> but it's right below getting it out of the door on my priority list
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2022-05-04T21:47:21 < zyp> I wonder if I can get orbtrace to reliably decode this: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/oL5F9.png (168 Mbaud SWO)
2022-05-04T21:47:53 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/8RMaq.jpg <- probed after the voltage buffer, i.e. right at the FPGA input
2022-05-04T21:48:21 < jpa-> it can help to have a shift register as delay line, and then resync to next edges before actually sampling the bits
2022-05-04T21:49:41 < jpa-> the ripplety ripples in the scope graph are just the long ground lead
2022-05-04T21:49:49 < zyp> yeah
2022-05-04T21:50:20 < zyp> I mean, I think it's a pretty good looking signal for being a 168 Mbaud UART
2022-05-04T21:50:34 < jpa-> yeah
2022-05-04T21:50:50 < zyp> but the usual 16x oversampling would be 2.7 GHz :D
2022-05-04T21:51:32 < jpa-> somehow the 16x oversampling feels overkill when usb-fs works fine with 4x oversampling
2022-05-04T21:51:47 < zyp> indeed
2022-05-04T21:51:56 < jpa-> so 336 MHz clock + DDR input registers
2022-05-04T21:52:10 < zyp> yeah
2022-05-04T21:52:51 < jpa-> i guess an alternative could be to have a buffer chain as delay line and then synchronizer chains going from each tap, and select the delay with a mux
2022-05-04T21:53:09 < jpa-> but may be annoying to get the synthetizer to make that in a reasonable way
2022-05-04T21:53:22 < zyp> if you have any clever solutions, feel free to contribute :)
2022-05-04T21:53:46 < jpa-> i need to finish my n+1 projects first :)
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2022-05-04T21:55:58 < Steffanx> but nothing makes you more happy than to contribute to something for the public you might never use yourself jpa-
2022-05-04T21:56:43 < mawk> why does it have to be so fast zyp 
2022-05-04T21:56:59 < zyp> it doesn't
2022-05-04T21:57:24 < zyp> 168 Mbaud is the fastest SWO stream you get from a chip running with 168 MHz sysclock
2022-05-04T21:57:30 < mawk> ah yeah
2022-05-04T21:57:43 < zyp> i.e. what I had on hand to test with
2022-05-04T21:58:08 < mawk> how would you filter the signal to make it nice
2022-05-04T21:58:15 < mawk> what's a filter that likes squares but doesn't like wiggles
2022-05-04T21:58:59 < mawk> something that removes even harmonics I guess, but that's probably not enough
2022-05-04T21:59:28 < mawk> I guess fitering isn't useful anyway
2022-05-04T21:59:36 < mawk> the signal looks good enough 
2022-05-04T22:06:58 < Steffanx> lol mawk
2022-05-04T22:08:52 < mawk> you don't like filters Steffanx ?
2022-05-04T22:08:54 < mawk> I like them
2022-05-04T22:12:00 < Steffanx> Depends.
2022-05-04T22:12:50 < mawk> coffee filters for instance
2022-05-04T22:13:47 < Steffanx> i hardly drink coffee anymore
2022-05-04T22:20:10 < Steffanx> Tea and water.
2022-05-04T22:22:39 < mawk> I don't drink coffee either
2022-05-04T22:22:40 < mawk> it's not healthy
2022-05-04T22:22:46 < mawk> I drink monster energy
2022-05-04T22:23:01 < catphish> i drink both, just in case
2022-05-04T22:26:35 < catphish> ham radio is fun, i really need to get a transmitter sorted out, since i can only RX right now, https://i.imgur.com/n8S0jr1.png
2022-05-04T22:27:08 < mawk> reverse the power plug to make it into an emitter
2022-05-04T22:28:36 < catphish> i mostly just need to stop being lazy and actually wire some things up
2022-05-04T22:29:13 < catphish> the complexity is that i need to hook up a relay to connect my antenna to the transmit amplifier, or to the receiver ADC, but not both, ADC doesn't like that
2022-05-04T22:30:06 < qyx> re-what?
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2022-05-04T23:44:21 < catphish> grr, just tried to order from farnell, got to the last step, they've preauth'd a payment from my card, deleted my basket, but then some callback never happened and the order wasn't created, so i have no money, no order, and no basket :'(
2022-05-04T23:45:22 < catphish> ^ panic averted, they just emailed to say the order's placed :)
2022-05-04T23:51:47 < Steffanx> Take a beer, relax, no panic.
2022-05-04T23:54:23  * karlp poured a big glass of wine and started cloning zephyr...
2022-05-04T23:54:27 < karlp> madness!
2022-05-04T23:55:11 < zyp> I'm playing with my RPC code and I really need to rethink how I'm doing output :)
2022-05-04T23:55:48 < karlp> heh, I left work early and wanted to clean up some shit I was working on, and got home and rememembered I don't have a bt adapter on my home pc, I took the one I was using back to the office.
2022-05-04T23:56:22 < karlp> so I'm trusting that zephyr's claims about the HCI USB demo working is truthful and it's just a compile and flash onto this wb55 dongle and I can have one again...
2022-05-04T23:57:04 < zyp> input is easy; I start out with everything in a buffer and can just iterate through it
2022-05-04T23:57:05 < karlp> eventualyl we'll be able to just drop a proto file into a project and have it generate nice clean fwc++ side and a nice class for python to talk over pyusb right?
2022-05-04T23:57:14 < zyp> that's my goal, yes
2022-05-04T23:57:19  * karlp cheers
2022-05-04T23:57:57 < karlp> I'm tossing up whether to poke freertos for these wch parts, or try out whether their binary bleutooth blob will cooperate with laks....
2022-05-04T23:58:05 < karlp> but, doing a little work first...
2022-05-04T23:59:21 < karlp> while you're here, and while zephyr's downloading though,
2022-05-04T23:59:54 < karlp> I've got a local patch I keep having to avoid commiting, to platforms/riscv.yaml to set toolchain s/riscv64-unknown-elf/riscv-none-embed/
--- Day changed to touko 05 2022
2022-05-05T00:00:06 < karlp> can I specify that from my own project scons file easily?
2022-05-05T00:01:21 < zyp> yeah, just put TOOLCHAIN = 'riscv-none-embed-' in the environment
2022-05-05T00:02:54 < zyp> but the goal is to be able to put multiple toolchains in the platform definitions and have it pick the first one it finds in path
2022-05-05T00:03:10 < zyp> that's why it's toolchains in plural and why it's a list
2022-05-05T00:03:43 < zyp> right now it's just picking the first from the list though: https://cgit.jvnv.net/laks/tree/build/scons_tools/tool_selectmcu.py?h=dev_v2#n12
2022-05-05T00:04:15 < karlp> ah, I'd tried env.SetDefault(), but I think I'd set it after selectMCU, 
2022-05-05T00:04:32 < zyp> don't use SetDefault, just set it :)
2022-05-05T00:04:43 < karlp> env.Replace(TOOLCHAIN = "riscv-none-embed-") worked, that at least gets me around having permanently dirty laks submodule.
2022-05-05T00:05:14 < karlp> env.SetDefault before .selectMCU works now, too, ok, great.
2022-05-05T00:06:38 < zyp> okay, the toolchain detection looks really simple to implement, give me a few minutes :)
2022-05-05T00:06:59 < karlp> no stress, this is already a hundred times better than carrying a local patch in my own laks all the time
2022-05-05T00:07:06 < karlp> I was just waiting for a git clone.
2022-05-05T00:07:17 < karlp> github seemed to be throttling me to onyl 1MB/sec.
2022-05-05T00:07:21 < zyp> yeah, but I already looked up how to solve it, so I might as well just do it now
2022-05-05T00:07:27 < karlp> fine with me :)
2022-05-05T00:08:09 < karlp> oh ffs, it's only finished the _first_ clone
2022-05-05T00:08:18 < karlp> now it's cloning every otehr fucking dependency. 
2022-05-05T00:08:33 < karlp> "this is only temporary, this is only temporary"
2022-05-05T00:14:32 < zyp> haha
2022-05-05T00:14:36 < zyp> zyp@rin coro_sandbox $ scons
2022-05-05T00:14:36 < zyp> Couldn't find a suitable toolchain.
2022-05-05T00:14:36 < zyp> Toolchains searched for:
2022-05-05T00:14:36 < zyp>  * arm-all-eabi
2022-05-05T00:14:36 < zyp>  * arm-some-eabi
2022-05-05T00:15:36 < karlp> so. when is "dev_v2" going to be the new main? (writing repo readme's/purpose statement again)
2022-05-05T00:16:17 < zyp> idk, it pretty much is already
2022-05-05T00:16:35 < zyp> I don't expect to ever do a v1 project again :)
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2022-05-05T00:18:29 < zyp> there you go: https://cgit.jvnv.net/laks/commit/?h=dev_v2&id=c40eb0b
2022-05-05T00:18:50 < zyp> feel free to list reasonable toolchain options in the platform definitions now :)
2022-05-05T00:20:14 < karlp> zeph is still downloading, so sure!
2022-05-05T00:25:16 < karlp> works great thanks! https://github.com/karlp/laks/commit/e2a36ee56025e852a00d1507b0bf75a4dac0042c
2022-05-05T00:25:33 < zyp> :)
2022-05-05T00:27:03 < karlp> (I'm still force pushing this branch a bit, don't go grabbing shit jsut yet unless you're excited)
2022-05-05T00:27:16 < karlp> (there's definitely bits that appear stable though)
2022-05-05T00:29:57 < zyp> I'd still like to give this riscv stuff a spin before I do, and I still haven't figured out to hook up a debugger to ch569
2022-05-05T00:32:37 < karlp> oh, please definitely do.
2022-05-05T00:32:44 < karlp> even just testing the gd32v stuff stillw orks,
2022-05-05T00:32:51 < karlp> that board isn't even connected right now.
2022-05-05T00:33:17 < karlp> as best I can tell, you're gonna need a wlink/wchlink depending on where it's written.
2022-05-05T00:33:59 < karlp> as in, _no_ other options for debugging it yet, until someone gets excited enough about reversing both the openocd sources and what I suspect is what the wlink firmware is then actually doing.
2022-05-05T00:34:24 < karlp> I still _kinda_ suspect it's ~99.99% SWD that they're trying to be a bit coy about, but I've not hooked up a LA to the raw lines yet.
2022-05-05T00:34:51 < karlp> you _can_ use https://github.com/MarsTechHAN/ch552tool with one of the PRs though, 
2022-05-05T00:35:04 < karlp> that's ~equivalent to "stm32flashloader" sort of bootloader flashing only though
2022-05-05T00:35:14 < karlp> but you went for the super niche ch569 :)
2022-05-05T00:35:31 < zyp> yeah, no, not gonna waste time working blind
2022-05-05T00:36:25 < karlp> it's the avr way? aren't you norwegian?
2022-05-05T00:36:46 < zyp> ch32v307 is the most common one?
2022-05-05T00:37:09 < karlp> I believe so, and that's also the dev board that comes with a wlink on board, very nucleo form.
2022-05-05T00:37:23 < karlp> pins available for external debug use too, which is what I'm using for the ch582
2022-05-05T00:39:47 < zyp> not showing up on aliexpress
2022-05-05T00:41:02 < zyp> found it
2022-05-05T00:43:59 < karlp> black one? ethernet, two usb-c connectors?
2022-05-05T00:44:03 < karlp> I got mine on lcsc
2022-05-05T00:45:14 < zyp> oh, right, that's way cheaper
2022-05-05T01:03:11 < karlp> fucking another 1.4G of zephyr sdk.
2022-05-05T01:03:34 < karlp> apparenrlt there's no sane way of saying, "I'm only going to use arm cortexm and I'll flash it myself, please just use my existing tools"
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2022-05-05T01:37:14 < karlp> great, get all this way, and zephyr's like /home/karlp/src/zephyr-k2022/zephyr/drivers/bluetooth/hci/ipm_stm32wb.c:594: undefined reference to `bt_hci_cmd_send_sync'
2022-05-05T01:37:23 < karlp> you fucking what? this is one of your supported boards you cunts
2022-05-05T01:42:17 < zyp> gotta love it
2022-05-05T01:42:21 < karlp> yay, it works on the nrf52833dk at least.
2022-05-05T01:42:40 < karlp> IMO it _should_ work on the wb55, it meets all their own requirements...
2022-05-05T01:44:13 < karlp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/3qy43
2022-05-05T01:44:18 < karlp> it's... 22:44.
2022-05-05T01:44:31 < karlp> I sat down to that at around 20:45.
2022-05-05T01:44:43 < karlp> "just flash a zephyr sample" they said...
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2022-05-05T02:46:14 < karlp> bleh, scons is still being too clever. https://paste.jvnv.net/view/DqMjo
2022-05-05T02:46:30 < karlp> I think I need more #s in paths, but I've already tried liberally sprinkling them...
2022-05-05T02:47:04 < karlp> I think I should try this without laks, it might be upset about something assumed in laks...
2022-05-05T03:05:34 < karlp> right, that does all the right things without laks, so.... it's a laks problem now... :) https://github.com/karlp/l2-miniblink-simple/blob/main/SConstruct
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2022-05-05T09:36:14 < jpa-> heh, RP2040 is kind of funny in that writing and reading of GPIOs cannot be done through the GPIO peripheral
2022-05-05T09:36:32 < jpa-> instead there is a separate SIO ("single cycle IO") peripheral for the actual data, GPIO peripheral just configures pin modes
2022-05-05T09:46:55 < qyx> did you see G0?
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2022-05-05T09:47:06 < qyx> STM reinvented probably something similar
2022-05-05T09:47:22 < qyx> I hope not that retarted though
2022-05-05T09:57:01 < jpa-> i did see STM stopping all nice DMA to GPIO hacks
2022-05-05T09:57:08 < jpa-> at least RP2040 has the PIO peripheral that can do it
2022-05-05T09:58:07 < jpa-> RP2040 not having the GPIO BSRR register is a bit annoying
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2022-05-05T10:40:52 < jpa-> while (!(uart0_hw->fr & UART_UARTFR_TXFE_BITS))     i don't quite like this naming for the constants
2022-05-05T10:41:00 < jpa-> so much useless characters
2022-05-05T10:48:36 < zyp> jpa-, it's like LPC chips, but with different naming
2022-05-05T10:49:30 < zyp> they have a PINMUX (or was it PADMUX) to configure pin modes, and GPIO just handles the input/output registers
2022-05-05T10:51:44 < jpa-> yeah
2022-05-05T10:52:05 < jpa-> RP2040 has SIO, GPIO and PADS
2022-05-05T10:52:25 < jpa-> SIO is for writing data, GPIO is for configuring peripheral mappins and PADS is for drive strenght & pullups
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2022-05-05T14:36:13 < jpa-> meh, trying to get a working debugging setup for RP2040 is frustrating
2022-05-05T14:37:48 < jpa-> ST-LINK of course doesn't work because of multidrop SWD; blackmagic connects and debugs, but flashing fails; openocd + picodebug connects, but flashing fails; openocd + ftdi doesn't connect; openocd + dap42 doesn't connect
2022-05-05T14:38:15 < jpa-> built-in bootloader writes the flash chip ok so i think it works ok
2022-05-05T14:55:22 < jpa-> ok, now picodebug flashes but cannot debug
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2022-05-05T15:12:24 < qyx> jpa-: ask ventYl 
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2022-05-05T15:20:44 < jpa-> ventYl: so, what do you use for debugging RP2040?
2022-05-05T15:21:29 < ventYl> jpa-: RP2040
2022-05-05T15:21:50 < srk> :D debugception
2022-05-05T15:22:01 < ventYl> I used to debug it using STLinks from discovery and nucleo boards, but somehow it seems that PineTime fried both mine STLinks
2022-05-05T15:22:10 < ventYl> so now I use picoprobe for debugging purporses
2022-05-05T15:22:41 < ventYl> you pretty much don't have any other cheap option, unless you own some other multi-drop capable probe
2022-05-05T15:23:21 < ventYl> if you don't plan using secondary core, it is possible to run debugger there
2022-05-05T15:30:05 < jpa-> how did you get it to work with stlink?
2022-05-05T15:30:21 < jpa-> and yes, i tried picodebug, failed to get it working
2022-05-05T15:30:28 < jpa-> i guess i'll try picoprobe next
2022-05-05T15:30:40 < ventYl> ah, bullshit. with stlink it can't be connected
2022-05-05T15:30:49 < ventYl> or at least not using scripts available on the internet
2022-05-05T15:31:04 < ventYl> maybe if you pretended that rp2040 doesn't have secondary core, then it would work
2022-05-05T15:31:18 < ventYl> picoprobe works for me, downside is that you have to build custom openocd
2022-05-05T15:33:08 < jpa-> yeah, at this point that is hardly a downside
2022-05-05T15:33:10 < ventYl> recently, i have found pico-proble, which is something differrent than picoprobe
2022-05-05T15:33:19 < ventYl> it looks promissing
2022-05-05T15:33:58 < ventYl> https://github.com/martijnvwezel/pico-probe-programmer
2022-05-05T15:34:54 < ventYl> ah, it's the same code, only with separate HW
2022-05-05T15:35:17 < ventYl> still good enough, pico is just too bulky and doesn't have the right header
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2022-05-05T16:00:04 < jpa-> https://github.com/blackmagic-debug/blackmagic/issues/1013   got black magic probe to work with RP2040, it was the NRST pin that was giving me trouble
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2022-05-05T18:37:39 < bitmask> damn, hard drive full
2022-05-05T19:09:43 < Steffanx> Oh dear
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2022-05-05T20:43:06 < kakium69> evenings
2022-05-05T20:47:46 < sauce> https://rohsrecords.bandcamp.com/album/dub-affairs-vol-1 musics
2022-05-05T20:54:57 < kakium69> mkay
2022-05-05T20:55:41 < kakium69> are you sure this is sauce musics?
2022-05-05T20:57:29 < sauce> are you asking me to try again
2022-05-05T20:57:36 < kakium69> no
2022-05-05T20:57:49 < sauce> https://deathchain.bandcamp.com/album/ritual-death-metal
2022-05-05T20:57:56 < sauce> too bad
2022-05-05T21:10:07 < kakium69> I like the first one
2022-05-05T21:10:30 < kakium69> second one I will pass
2022-05-05T21:17:04 < Steffanx> Hah same, first one was "ok not death metal" but then...
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2022-05-05T21:41:34 < kakium69> how do I docker?
2022-05-05T21:41:57 < Steffanx> Google knows
2022-05-05T21:42:47 < kakium69> I maybe watch youtubes tutorial
2022-05-05T21:43:46 < kakium69> tutorial for beginners [3hours]
2022-05-05T21:43:53 < kakium69> hmm
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2022-05-05T22:19:46 < srk> haha. do podman instead
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2022-05-05T22:38:13 < qyx> I dockered once
2022-05-05T22:38:17 < qyx> never again
2022-05-05T22:53:01 < mawk> no docker neither podman
2022-05-05T22:53:15 < mawk> it's pest or cholera
2022-05-05T22:53:23 < mawk> real men use lxc containers
2022-05-05T22:54:28 < karlp> real man program by waving magnets over the platters? gtfo with your gatekeeping bullshit
2022-05-05T22:54:30 < mawk> kakium69 you write Dockerfile
2022-05-05T22:54:35 < mawk> look at the official doc
2022-05-05T22:54:39 < mawk> not at random crap youtube tutorials
2022-05-05T22:54:49 < mawk> it takes 5mn to read the main commands you can use
2022-05-05T22:55:02 < mawk> FROM to inherit from another image, CMD to do stuff to prepare the container 
2022-05-05T22:55:07 < mawk> basically these two and that's it
2022-05-05T22:55:23 < mawk> lxc isn't waving magnets karlp it's established technology 
2022-05-05T22:56:21 < mawk> "don't use RANDU in your programs — gtfo with the gatekeeping"
2022-05-05T22:56:26 < mawk> you can't use that argument everywhere 
2022-05-05T22:56:40 < srk> mawk: systemd-nspawn is even lighter
2022-05-05T22:56:40 < mawk> some things are objectively bad
2022-05-05T22:56:46 < mawk> yeah it's what I use srk
2022-05-05T22:56:49 < mawk> it's pretty cool
2022-05-05T22:57:00 < mawk> especially with a snapshot fs like btrfs
2022-05-05T22:57:28 < qyx> yeah I used lxc in the oast a lot
2022-05-05T22:57:40 < srk> cool. I think I need to defrag my btrfs.. :D
2022-05-05T22:57:43 < qyx> and it was reasonabnly good
2022-05-05T22:58:47 < qyx> but I wasn't abnle to understand docker
2022-05-05T22:59:05 < mawk> docker is a different paradigm, immutable containers
2022-05-05T22:59:20 < karlp> it's why I was annoyed at mawk's lxc comment
2022-05-05T22:59:23 < karlp> they're not the same thing at all.
2022-05-05T22:59:34 < mawk> yeah
2022-05-05T22:59:43 < karlp> omg y u no ujail?!11!
2022-05-05T22:59:57 < mawk> well it's kinda the same thing, it's containers
2022-05-05T23:00:04 < qyx> it is like arguing about zfs
2022-05-05T23:00:09 < mawk> but the preferred way to handle it is different 
2022-05-05T23:00:21 < mawk> you can strongarm docker into behaving like lxc if you want
2022-05-05T23:01:12 < mawk> lxc, podman, nspawn, docker, all use the same exact kernel stuff, they're not vastly different 
2022-05-05T23:01:26 < mawk> namespaces and cgroups
2022-05-05T23:01:52 < qyx> there was one more in the past
2022-05-05T23:02:06 < qyx> openvh or what
2022-05-05T23:02:11 < mawk> vz
2022-05-05T23:02:13 < mawk> yeah
2022-05-05T23:02:23 < mawk> never tried it though 
2022-05-05T23:02:34 < mawk> but some tools from that era subsist like libvirt
2022-05-05T23:02:44 < qyx> yeah openvz
2022-05-05T23:02:58 < qyx> I used that too
2022-05-05T23:03:10 < qyx> before containers were mainstream
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2022-05-05T23:03:16 < qyx> and libvirt too
2022-05-05T23:03:53 < mawk> then there's firejail which doesn't want you to know they're containers but it uses basically the same thing 
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2022-05-05T23:04:19 < mawk> with some bpf filtering of syscalls for super security 
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2022-05-05T23:05:24 < mawk> sometimes I use namespaces and cgroups directly, systemd has reasonable support for their manipulation; especially for network stuff
2022-05-05T23:05:33 < mawk> it makes different routing tables for different programs easier to do
2022-05-05T23:05:51 < mawk> the canonical application is to exclude/include some app into a VPN
2022-05-05T23:05:59 < mawk> but I never finished it
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2022-05-05T23:15:01 < benishor> kakium69: how do I docker?
2022-05-05T23:15:04 < benishor> you install docker, first
2022-05-05T23:15:26 < benishor> then you either fetch images from the docker hub or a private image repository
2022-05-05T23:15:34 < benishor> or you create your own images, using a Dockerfile
2022-05-05T23:16:07 < benishor> an image is a blueprint. you can start any number of instances from that blueprint
2022-05-05T23:16:49 < mawk> if you don't write dockerfiles are you even dockering?
2022-05-05T23:16:55 < mawk> you're just running regular containers
2022-05-05T23:17:00 < benishor> it depends on what he wants to do
2022-05-05T23:17:07 < mawk> yeah I guess 
2022-05-05T23:17:09 < benishor> maybe he just wants to use docker and has no clue as of how
2022-05-05T23:17:20 < mawk> he could write a compose file to compose containers 
2022-05-05T23:17:34 < benishor> I would first start with Dockerfile before compose
2022-05-05T23:17:47 < benishor> by default the containers run in isolation. you can create volumes and networks in order to make them communicate
2022-05-05T23:17:56 < benishor> that was meant for kakium
2022-05-05T23:17:59 < mawk> I mean either he wants his own container, or assemble existing containers
2022-05-05T23:18:08 < benishor> need more info
2022-05-05T23:18:33 < mawk> I hate that you don't have bridge interface in docker
2022-05-05T23:18:35 < mawk> why
2022-05-05T23:18:52 < mawk> it's not even a technical impossibility because I bodged it in successfully 
2022-05-05T23:19:06 < mawk> you have lousy macvtap instead 
2022-05-05T23:19:42 < benishor> isn't that a bridge network when you create one?
2022-05-05T23:19:49 < benishor> and manually assign it to containers?
2022-05-05T23:20:10 < mawk> what do you mean?
2022-05-05T23:20:14 < mawk> I mean bridge in the linux sense
2022-05-05T23:20:25 < mawk> an interface with the literal type bridge 
2022-05-05T23:20:36 < mawk> which isn't allowed
2022-05-05T23:20:39 < benishor> ah
2022-05-05T23:20:45 < mawk> like to bridge a container onto an existing ethernet interface 
2022-05-05T23:20:53 < benishor> ok, got it
2022-05-05T23:21:00 < mawk> instead you have to use macvtap which has limitations such as no communication with the host
2022-05-05T23:21:18 < mawk> unless you have hairpin routing on your physical router
2022-05-05T23:21:27 < mawk> not routing per se but whatever
2022-05-05T23:21:36 < benishor> I don't know this level of detail
2022-05-05T23:22:08 < benishor> but I would assume it has to do with control, especially when I think of swarm
2022-05-05T23:22:26 < mawk> yeah
2022-05-05T23:22:41 < mawk> bridges are hard to firewall also; but I would assume macvtap too so I don't know
2022-05-05T23:23:02 < mawk> you need to use ebtables, or the L2 extension to netfilter and use iptables
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2022-05-05T23:23:16 < benishor> eek
2022-05-05T23:23:17 < mawk> that may be the reason 
2022-05-05T23:24:55 < mawk> https://youtu.be/JA2TPK0NeFI
2022-05-05T23:24:59 < mawk> listen to this benishor 
2022-05-05T23:25:14 < Steffann> not enough fast boom boom mawk
2022-05-05T23:25:27 < Steffann> not enough distortion
2022-05-05T23:25:31 < mawk> yes
2022-05-05T23:25:34 < mawk> I adapt to my audience
2022-05-05T23:25:45 < mawk> do you like it?
2022-05-05T23:25:47 < benishor> the synth is such italian
2022-05-05T23:25:51 < mawk> are you stamping on the ground?
2022-05-05T23:25:56 < mawk> yeah they're Italian apparently 
2022-05-05T23:26:00 < mawk> but we forgive them
2022-05-05T23:26:00 < benishor> it's ok but I'm in a different league
2022-05-05T23:26:11 < mawk> you prefer harder hardcore?
2022-05-05T23:26:20 < mawk> more boom and more distortion 
2022-05-05T23:26:30 < Steffann> maybe some dutch boom boom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA0t6ErCtus
2022-05-05T23:26:41 < benishor> depends on the mood. but at this particular moment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKi9Z-f6qX4&ab_channel=UltraMusic
2022-05-05T23:27:37 < mawk> why no paul elstak Steffann 
2022-05-05T23:27:43 < mawk> you don't like paultje?
2022-05-05T23:27:47 < benishor> also a recent .be find https://youtu.be/LzG-qji05Lc
2022-05-05T23:28:46 < Steffann> is paul still alive?
2022-05-05T23:28:48 < mawk> where's the boom 
2022-05-05T23:28:51 < mawk> yes Steffann 
2022-05-05T23:28:53 < mawk> I hope
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2022-05-05T23:29:05 < mawk> he's 60
2022-05-05T23:29:07 < mawk> or so
2022-05-05T23:29:22 < mawk> oh no it isn't electronic music benishor what did you do
2022-05-05T23:30:11 < benishor> electric guitars use electronics too :)
2022-05-05T23:30:23 < benishor> and I bet those use dsp
2022-05-05T23:31:57 < benishor> ok then mawk, electronic music it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pId6jNUDAiU&ab_channel=Talamasca
2022-05-05T23:32:40 < benishor> goa/psy kicks ass
2022-05-05T23:33:40 < benishor> or, if you like mushrooms https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxhTbxMSvT0&ab_channel=RicardoValle
2022-05-05T23:38:13 < BrainDamage> I like music that when played twice doesn't sound the same
2022-05-05T23:38:27 < catphish> kakium69: today i changed my method for clamping down my battery modules, but finally making progress, have all the plans and materials now to finish! https://i.imgur.com/hJzhM0B.jpg
2022-05-05T23:38:59 < BrainDamage> you inflate the batteries until the pressure clamps them on
2022-05-05T23:39:11 < catphish> lol fortunately no
2022-05-05T23:39:42 < catphish> the pictured method is much easier to assemble
2022-05-05T23:39:51 < BrainDamage> also, I hope you have drainage holes
2022-05-05T23:40:05 < Steffanx> and what music would that be BrainDamage?
2022-05-05T23:40:06 < BrainDamage> loss of coolant in your case is not too different from a nuclear reactor
2022-05-05T23:40:11 < catphish> people keep mentioning drainage holes!
2022-05-05T23:40:15 < benishor> I was about to ask that too
2022-05-05T23:40:28 < BrainDamage> pretty much anything that has a human in the loop
2022-05-05T23:40:45 < BrainDamage> I'm ok with synth stuff, as long as there's someone twiddling them
2022-05-05T23:40:47 < catphish> how much condensation am i expecting?! and what does a drainage hole look like?
2022-05-05T23:40:50 < benishor> let's pick a random band. say pink floyd
2022-05-05T23:41:03 < BrainDamage> no, not condensation, I meant a burst pipe :p
2022-05-05T23:41:30 < BrainDamage> in fact, I'd espect 0 condensation
2022-05-05T23:41:37 < BrainDamage> since you have to actively cool them
2022-05-05T23:41:49 < benishor> synth with someone twiddling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3hAnAnJwyU&ab_channel=StrictlyRhythm
2022-05-05T23:42:05  * BrainDamage points at their nick
2022-05-05T23:43:39 < catphish> the box is actually currently full of holes in the bottom, far from wanting more drainage holes, i need to plug them to stop water getting *in* :)
2022-05-05T23:44:50 < BrainDamage> so it has a positive void coefficient
2022-05-05T23:44:59 < BrainDamage> the more water you dump in, the hotter it gets :p
2022-05-05T23:45:08 < BrainDamage> negative*
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--- Day changed pe touko 06 2022
2022-05-06T00:00:55 < kakium69> catphish: how is that supposed to work (pic)?
2022-05-06T00:02:09 < catphish> kakium69: the 3 bars are bolted into the sides of the box
2022-05-06T00:02:37 < catphish> there will be padding between the bar and the top of the batteries to maintain the pressure
2022-05-06T00:03:05 < kakium69> somebody stands on the bar while other guy drives bolt in?
2022-05-06T00:03:14 < catphish> basically yes
2022-05-06T00:03:43 < catphish> dunno how much force will be needed, depends on the amount of padding i guess
2022-05-06T00:03:44 < kakium69> os just use some big clamp
2022-05-06T00:04:34 < catphish> this then leaves the bottom of the box vulnerable to sagging during lifting, but i will put angles on the bottom of the box as originally planned
2022-05-06T00:05:19 < catphish> so all problems solved, and much easier to assemble than the threaded bar idea
2022-05-06T00:06:54 < catphish> the angles on the bottom of the box will then bolt onto the angles in the tray beneath
2022-05-06T00:07:02 < catphish> i'm a lot happier than i can actually assemble this!
2022-05-06T00:08:57 < catphish> so next week i will complete assembly of all that, and fabricate a simple lid
2022-05-06T00:09:04 < BrainDamage> do you plan to have some lever activated jettison system in the abitacle?
2022-05-06T00:09:16 < catphish> no
2022-05-06T00:09:18 < BrainDamage> if a predator stalks you, you drop some batteries behind
2022-05-06T00:09:42 < catphish> the vehicle is more effective at escape with its batteries attached :)
2022-05-06T00:10:14 < BrainDamage> not all batteries
2022-05-06T00:10:42 < catphish> still no :)
2022-05-06T00:11:59 < BrainDamage> ok, how about a toggleable electrovalve that dumps water in the battery case?
2022-05-06T00:12:26 < catphish> BrainDamage: i think a more pertinent question is how i obtain whatever you are currently smoking
2022-05-06T00:12:57 < BrainDamage> are you said you don't plan a self destruct system for every device you build?
2022-05-06T00:13:53 < catphish> my engineering skills are such that any self destruct system would be sure to activate inadvertently with me inside the blast radius
2022-05-06T00:14:04 < catphish> so i don't do this.
2022-05-06T00:14:36 < BrainDamage> no, plan, not execut
2022-05-06T00:15:16 < BrainDamage> I have the habit to design but not implement a self destruction mechanism for all the devices I do
2022-05-06T00:15:44 < BrainDamage> I'm not that crazy to add it, but it's fun to see if I could rig things to explode
2022-05-06T00:16:30 < BrainDamage> I guess it's a bit cathartic in keeping frustration down
2022-05-06T00:20:35 < karlp> oh, if anyone is doing any efr32.... I got ota working properly in the end... https://github.com/etactica/host_utilities/tree/feature/bluetooth_ota_python_bleak/bluetooth_ota_apploader_python_bleak
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2022-05-06T01:22:29 < catphish> ugh, sometimes i astonish myself with my own incompetence...
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2022-05-06T02:25:10 < catphish> struggling to contain my amusement at the sentence "May I clarify what occurred so that we can stop talking about the muffins?"
2022-05-06T02:26:38 < catphish> context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaQarnFbyD8
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2022-05-06T09:30:21 < jpa-> "internal-error: could not find a target to follow mourn inferior"    gdb errors never disappoint :)
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2022-05-06T10:53:59 < mawk> why is Egilsstaðir shameful?
2022-05-06T12:15:08 < jpa-> hmm, all RP2040 pins default to 50kohm pull-down on boot
2022-05-06T12:15:34 < jpa-> that is quite annoying when you need the IO to default to high state when program is not running
2022-05-06T12:16:08 < jpa-> even 10kohm external pull-up only gets up to 2.8 V
2022-05-06T12:57:46 < mawk> that's enough jpa- no?
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2022-05-06T12:59:01 < mawk> it's above 2V
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2022-05-06T13:30:39 < karlp> mawk: who says it's shameful?
2022-05-06T13:30:59 < mawk> I saw a map of europe's most shameful countries and for iceland it was this
2022-05-06T13:33:08 < karlp> most shameful _countries_ ?
2022-05-06T13:33:17 < karlp> this story isn't making any sense...
2022-05-06T13:34:24  * karlp returns to catching up on music spam
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2022-05-06T13:54:28 < jpa-> mawk: enough for digital IO, but somewhat low for PNP transistor connected to 3.3V
2022-05-06T13:54:54 < jpa-> (and other similar uses)
2022-05-06T13:56:13 < karlp> fucking what, bluez is still onyl bt 4.2?!
2022-05-06T13:56:15 < karlp> what is this shit.
2022-05-06T13:57:01 < karlp> I want to use features from 5.0, which came out in 2016....
2022-05-06T14:15:22 < mawk> cities karlp 
2022-05-06T14:15:25 < mawk> not country
2022-05-06T14:19:06 < karlp> sounds like someone on reddit is trolling again.
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2022-05-06T15:24:09 < aandrew> jpa-> mawk: enough for digital IO, but somewhat low for PNP transistor connected to 3.3V
2022-05-06T15:24:16 < aandrew> bring back geranium pnp :-)
2022-05-06T15:24:48 < aandrew> also odd that the POR default is pull down (and that strong)
2022-05-06T15:25:43 < jpa-> yeah, i've used to having the STM32 default of no pulls
2022-05-06T15:25:50 < jpa-> but i guess i'll just put 4.7 kohm and be fine with it
2022-05-06T15:25:59 < jpa-> it's not like we are in energy crisis
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2022-05-06T15:49:45 < mawk> geranium PNP
2022-05-06T15:49:52 < mawk> with red petals
2022-05-06T15:50:01 < mawk> and repels mosquitoes 
2022-05-06T16:00:46 < aandrew> oh for fuck sakes
2022-05-06T16:00:48 < aandrew> good catch mawk
2022-05-06T16:00:53 < aandrew> gerManium wtf 
2022-05-06T16:05:57 < karlp> I hve memories of buying germanium diodes when I was younger.
2022-05-06T16:06:03 < karlp> I cna't remember why.
2022-05-06T16:06:27 < karlp> I know I was using small signal diodes of some form as electric detonators for shits, but cant' think I would have needed germanium for them.
2022-05-06T16:06:50 < karlp> and like, dick smith had germanium diodes on the shelf,
2022-05-06T16:07:43 < aandrew> I haven't ever used germanium diodes with the sole exception of a crystal radio kit
2022-05-06T16:08:12 < aandrew> ... you would use diodes as fuses to set off firecrackers/etc.?
2022-05-06T16:09:44 < karlp> yeah, probably little piles of cordite wrapped in tape iirc.
2022-05-06T16:10:06 < karlp> if cordite is the right name for "modern" gunpowder, we were pulling apart 22LRs
2022-05-06T16:10:51 < karlp> hrm, maybe the germanium diode was for a crystal radio, but isn't the "crystl" in a crytal radio just "the diode"?
2022-05-06T16:12:36 < aandrew> yeah pretty much
2022-05-06T16:12:39 < aandrew> and a good solid ground
2022-05-06T16:13:07 < jpa-> IIRC they often also used "crystal eyepieces" i.e. piezo speakers with them
2022-05-06T16:13:25 < jpa-> but i think the name is from the diode
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2022-05-06T16:28:41 < aandrew> yes the earpiece had to be super high impedance 
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2022-05-06T17:03:51 < benishor> and you needed a good antenna too
2022-05-06T17:04:02 < benishor> as much wire as you could get deployed
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2022-05-06T17:10:15 < karlp> andthen that damn variable capacitor had to be blown on and carressed just right...
2022-05-06T17:10:31 < karlp> when it was a crystal set, it was kinda magic,
2022-05-06T17:10:51 < karlp> when I learnt comms in uni and it was like, "AM is just a diode" it was a bit less fun.
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2022-05-06T17:27:49 < Cracki> hey Mangy_Dog, does the name come from chupacabra?
2022-05-06T17:28:05 < Mangy_Dog> >.>
2022-05-06T17:28:08 < Mangy_Dog> <.<
2022-05-06T17:28:10 < Cracki> ic
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2022-05-06T17:28:12 < Mangy_Dog> nope
2022-05-06T17:28:15 < Cracki> wat
2022-05-06T17:28:18 < Mangy_Dog> im just mangy :DF
2022-05-06T17:28:53 < Cracki> I just went down a rabbit hole of wikipedia and nationalgeographic articles. these "monsters" seem to be mangy coyotes
2022-05-06T17:29:08 < Cracki> and the first time I read "mangy", your name pops into my head
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2022-05-06T17:41:39 < mawk> hi Cracki 
2022-05-06T17:41:48 < mawk> are you new here?
2022-05-06T17:41:54 < Cracki> yes very
2022-05-06T17:42:17 < Cracki> oh btw, how's availability of stm32 chips these days
2022-05-06T17:46:26 < catphish> ST gave up, they just make mouse mats now
2022-05-06T18:00:19 < Cracki> I want one. it'll be a collector's item, very valuable.
2022-05-06T18:05:46 -!- c10ud [~c10ud@user/c10ud] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
2022-05-06T18:09:02 < mawk> like the Lidl sneakers
2022-05-06T18:10:39 < Cracki> lol
2022-05-06T18:10:59 < Cracki> idiocracy is approaching
2022-05-06T18:11:27 < Cracki> recently rewatched pieces of the movie. they literally wear throwaway clothes developed from plastic shopping bags
2022-05-06T18:11:36 < Cracki> probably free because of the advertising on them
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2022-05-06T18:51:53 < Steffanx> Whoa, Cracki  👋🏻
2022-05-06T18:52:09 < Cracki> yeah no thanks
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2022-05-06T18:52:26 < Steffanx> Lol bye.
2022-05-06T19:06:31 < englishman> lol
2022-05-06T19:18:49 < Steffanx> His loss
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2022-05-06T23:46:36 < karlp> huh, https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=78903
2022-05-06T23:46:41 < karlp> that's a bug to me,
2022-05-06T23:47:03 < karlp> they can cal it design as much as they want, but inlining into a different section seems horrificalyl "hurhur we dont' care about users"
2022-05-06T23:52:30 < kakium69> interestings
2022-05-06T23:53:00 < kakium69> it's ignoring explicit section attribute
2022-05-06T23:53:24 < karlp> yep, they say this is "expected, go fuck yourself"
2022-05-06T23:55:00 < kakium69> and it's been there a while too
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--- Day changed la touko 07 2022
2022-05-07T00:11:34 < catphish> i'm gonna take the opposite view, inlining would seem to be a different matter from where code was originally to be located
2022-05-07T00:12:41 < catphish> the problem would seem to be though, that you may want it to be inlined, but only within the same section
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2022-05-07T00:37:00 < jadew> my son got a quest 2 - pretty cool, but it gives me some wicked eye strain
2022-05-07T00:45:36 < karlp> zyp: lol, I tried "a simple patch" to have laks generate the headers into a single "laks" directyr to be included....
2022-05-07T00:45:45 < karlp> that opened up farrrr more worms than intended :)
2022-05-07T00:45:58 < zyp> haha
2022-05-07T00:46:34 < zyp> include paths are another thing that's gonna be moot once I can switch to C++20 modules
2022-05-07T00:46:47 < karlp> I think the jinja tool you've written is not... sconssy enough, is the best way I have of thinking of it, but my variant shit works fine until I get laks involved.
2022-05-07T00:47:09 < karlp> so I'm kind ajust ignoring it again, filing ithe "hard and also not very fun" box
2022-05-07T00:48:06 < zyp> module names are independent of filesystem layout, so the source file can go «import laks.gpio;» and leave it to the compiler/build system to figure out where that comes from
2022-05-07T00:48:58 < zyp> having a build system that understands modules is another matter though
2022-05-07T00:49:05 < zyp> I'm not sure scons has any support yet
2022-05-07T00:49:25 < karlp> oh yeah, that sounds totally simple and widely deployed.
2022-05-07T00:50:01 < zyp> well, gcc-arm-embedded ships gcc11 now, so I think it's only the build system that's missing :)
2022-05-07T00:50:23 < zyp> except the macos-build of gcc-arm-embedded is broken
2022-05-07T00:54:15 < zyp> I've considered replacing scons too, I figure the only hard thing scons does for me is dependency scanning, and that's gonna be different for modules
2022-05-07T00:54:50 < zyp> building and executing a dependency graph shouldn't be too hard
2022-05-07T00:55:05 < karlp> I'm not super attached, but I'd personally prefer somethign that isn't just "lol, learn a made up language and we're going to just generate shit for another tool anyway"....
2022-05-07T00:56:27 < zyp> IMO building for embedded is a completely different problem from building normal software, so tools to do the latter is not necessarily a good fit for the former
2022-05-07T01:12:08 < karlp> what's the right way of namespacing things like ADC constants?
2022-05-07T01:15:12 < karlp> lol, cast all the things: ADC_DMACfg(ENABLE, (uint16_t)(uint32_t)&abcBuff[0], (uint16_t)(uint32_t)&abcBuff[40], ADC_Mode_Single);
2022-05-07T01:20:18 < karlp> ah fun. sparkfun cpp code in the ch582 demo code: https://github.com/openwch/ch583/blob/main/Application/wristband/firmware/Demo_Firmware/subsys/sensor/max30102/MAX30105.cpp
2022-05-07T01:20:30 < karlp> I was wondering why it was all of a sudden weird looking c++ :)
2022-05-07T01:25:23 < zyp> hmm
2022-05-07T01:25:40 < zyp> I'm not sure there's a right way yet, feel free to suggest something :)
2022-05-07T01:26:17 < zyp> namespacing is probably another thing to revisit, I'm considering putting everything in namespace laks when I switch to modules
2022-05-07T01:28:19 < karlp> it just feels like things like "Channel" or something are ... not ideal jsut dropped as enums into the globabl namespace.
2022-05-07T01:28:29  * karlp shrugs, too c++ for me
2022-05-07T01:29:13 < zyp> yeah, that's why pinmodes and stuff are part of the Pin object namespace
2022-05-07T01:29:20 < zyp> e.g. Pin::Output and Pin::AF
2022-05-07T01:29:44 < karlp> yeah, not everything has easy extra places to drop that, or at least, ... not obviously.
2022-05-07T01:29:47 < karlp> or I'm just being lame.
2022-05-07T01:32:07 < karlp> like, if I put it inside the specific class, I need to do shit like ADC->CHANNEL = CH5xx_ADC_t::Channel::TempSensor;
2022-05-07T01:32:25 < karlp> but I don't really want to ask for the ch5xx channel, I just want "the temp sensor channel"
2022-05-07T01:32:34  * karlp shrugs
2022-05-07T01:37:04 < zyp> there's also a problem that stuff like that doesn't scale
2022-05-07T01:38:16 < zyp> if you put something into the object like that, it can't differ between instances, and I'm pretty certain internal channels do differ on the larger stm32s with three ADCs
2022-05-07T01:42:45 < karlp> yeah, I absolutely don't want it inside the clss
2022-05-07T01:42:56 < karlp> I know full well it changes across alls orts of places in stm32 :)
2022-05-07T01:43:09 < karlp> it's all gross
2022-05-07T01:43:15 < karlp> gonna pretend it's not a problem a bit longer
2022-05-07T01:43:25 < karlp> it's after work, I'm only meant to be doing the fun stuff right....
2022-05-07T01:49:40 < emeb_mac> how fortunate that we no longer have to worry about using the larger stm32s
2022-05-07T01:49:51 < karlp> lol
2022-05-07T01:50:12 < zyp> :)
2022-05-07T01:52:55 < karlp> emeb_mac: so I heard about your gcc / clang claims from the other side from another direction :)
2022-05-07T01:53:16 < karlp> a friend is on this synth list you didn't mention where this gcc bashing ws coming from.
2022-05-07T01:53:27 < emeb_mac> karlp: haha. what did they say?
2022-05-07T01:53:42 < karlp> " here's a quote from him on the tb-303 "given the 303 is only exceeded by the NS10 as the worst piece of audio design in history""
2022-05-07T01:53:52 < karlp> so you should hve known to ignore whatever he had to say about gcc vs clang IMO :)
2022-05-07T01:54:16 < karlp> (I mean, I understand the 303 is fucking hideous in reality, which is why they all have their own sounds, but still)
2022-05-07T01:54:27 < emeb_mac> karlp: oh yeah. that mike bryant guy is a piece of work.
2022-05-07T01:54:59 < Mangy_Dog> having a little bit of an odd issue with PA9 If i set it to output I can set it high or low fine. But if i set it to input (any mode) it seems to hover around 2v, regardless of the level on the line its reading. Can a pin burn out and get stuck like this for just input modes? or should it break the output of the IO too?
2022-05-07T01:55:13 < karlp> emeb_mac: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/thyjR
2022-05-07T01:56:28 < qyx> Mangy_Dog: I don't follow, if you change it to input, why is it floating at 2 V?
2022-05-07T01:56:46 < qyx> your output driving it should define the level
2022-05-07T01:57:06 < emeb_mac> karlp: lol. Of course there are many different architectures that are under the PIC umbrella
2022-05-07T01:57:17 < karlp> (pa9 is a uart pin perhaps?)
2022-05-07T01:57:18 < Mangy_Dog> yeah setting output works i can set the high or low and it responds correctly
2022-05-07T01:57:19 < Mangy_Dog> but
2022-05-07T01:57:25 < Mangy_Dog> yeah karlp
2022-05-07T01:57:30 < karlp> are you driving it in more than one place?
2022-05-07T01:57:31 < Mangy_Dog> but im sure serial 1 is disabled
2022-05-07T01:57:51 < emeb_mac> MCHP is close to where I live and one of my old bosses used to work there - he got canned for suggesting they use modern tools/techniques to do their chip design.
2022-05-07T01:58:15 < Mangy_Dog> but when i set it to input mdoe, it seems to out put 2v on my ociliscope
2022-05-07T01:58:20 < Mangy_Dog> sorry i missspoke
2022-05-07T01:58:32 < emeb_mac> Back in the days when they did all the PIC designs by hand - drawing directly on the GDS-II
2022-05-07T01:58:42 < emeb_mac> but that's all changed now.
2022-05-07T01:59:02 < zyp> Mangy_Dog, well, input mode is hi-z, unless something else is driving it it's in an undefined state
2022-05-07T01:59:13 < qyx> Mangy_Dog: thats expected
2022-05-07T01:59:28 < karlp> yeah, mchp was always wonky as shit. super weird arse pics, and then super cheap, super great analog and power parts.
2022-05-07T01:59:28 < Mangy_Dog> is it?
2022-05-07T01:59:37 < zyp> why wouldn't it be?
2022-05-07T01:59:42 < karlp> everytime I even glanced at pic it just made my eyes bleed.
2022-05-07T01:59:45 < qyx> if it is input, you should drive it low or high
2022-05-07T01:59:46 < Mangy_Dog> when its in input mode, why would it output 2v?
2022-05-07T01:59:52 < zyp> it doesn't
2022-05-07T02:00:02 < qyx> if you keep it floating, it floats somewhere in the middle
2022-05-07T02:00:09 < qyx> or at the low level
2022-05-07T02:00:10 < Mangy_Dog> but im reading 2v on the pin with my ociliscope?
2022-05-07T02:00:11 < qyx> or high level
2022-05-07T02:00:15 < qyx> sometimes, sometimes not
2022-05-07T02:00:26 < Mangy_Dog> even when the pin should be down
2022-05-07T02:00:32 < karlp> what's making it be down?
2022-05-07T02:00:34 < zyp> inputs are mosfet gates, mosfet gates are capacitors
2022-05-07T02:00:40 < Mangy_Dog> a pull down resistor on the trace
2022-05-07T02:00:45 < qyx> your downer is broken then
2022-05-07T02:00:49 < karlp> ^^ 
2022-05-07T02:00:51 < Mangy_Dog> so it seems the pin is outputting 2v
2022-05-07T02:00:55 < karlp> or, you're still driving it...
2022-05-07T02:00:56 < emeb_mac> karlp: I kinda liked PIC24 and dsPIC - the arch of those is pretty usable.
2022-05-07T02:00:56 < Mangy_Dog> ill double check its attaached
2022-05-07T02:00:58 < Mangy_Dog> but still
2022-05-07T02:01:06 < Mangy_Dog> maybe uart is driving still
2022-05-07T02:01:20 < emeb_mac> but the low-end stuff is awful
2022-05-07T02:02:01 < karlp> pic24 and dspic are basically "not pic" in my mind :)
2022-05-07T02:02:11 < karlp> like pic32mz shit isn't pic either...
2022-05-07T02:02:16 < zyp> pic32 is mips
2022-05-07T02:02:21 < emeb_mac> yep.
2022-05-07T02:03:08 < emeb_mac> I did a few products fully in assy for dsPIC. That was fun in retrospect.
2022-05-07T02:03:58 < karlp> you made it an _input_
2022-05-07T02:04:01 < Mangy_Dog> the pull down is there
2022-05-07T02:04:10 < karlp> sorry, lost in scroll there.
2022-05-07T02:04:38 < karlp> if you have a pulland  you made it input then ou have something else driving it, IMO.
2022-05-07T02:04:46 < karlp> I'm already regretting opening my mouth
2022-05-07T02:04:49 < karlp> I think Iv'e got mange.
2022-05-07T02:04:53 < Mangy_Dog> :o
2022-05-07T02:04:56 < Mangy_Dog> it spreads
2022-05-07T02:05:00 < karlp> it does :)
2022-05-07T02:05:06 < Mangy_Dog> tbh im finding it confusing too
2022-05-07T02:05:17 < Mangy_Dog> which is why ive wondered if the IO is partly dead
2022-05-07T02:05:20 < karlp> from past experience, you're not telling us the whole picture.
2022-05-07T02:05:47 < Mangy_Dog> well there shouldnt be anything drivign the pin up currentlyt
2022-05-07T02:06:07 < Mangy_Dog> its also hard to explain everything D:
2022-05-07T02:06:18 < Mangy_Dog> i dont meant to do it on purpose. 
2022-05-07T02:07:03 < karlp> I know you don't
2022-05-07T02:07:06 < karlp> I'm sorry, 
2022-05-07T02:07:07 < zyp> check you don't have internal pullup also enabled
2022-05-07T02:07:14 < Mangy_Dog> yeah it isnt
2022-05-07T02:07:25 < zyp> opposing pulls will do what you're seeing
2022-05-07T02:07:26 < Mangy_Dog> even if i set it to internal pull down it still seems to float the pin at 2v on my scope
2022-05-07T02:08:08 < qyx> ia your acope ok
2022-05-07T02:08:15 < zyp> is this stm32f1?
2022-05-07T02:08:21 < Mangy_Dog> nods
2022-05-07T02:08:44 < zyp> IIRC gpiov1 is kinda limited in pull config, let me review the manual
2022-05-07T02:09:02 < zyp> how do you have pin configured right now?
2022-05-07T02:09:14 < Mangy_Dog> input_pulldown
2022-05-07T02:09:27 < Mangy_Dog> one sec
2022-05-07T02:11:04 < Mangy_Dog> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/695271473308237985/972274310033068032/unknown.png
2022-05-07T02:11:06 < Mangy_Dog> there
2022-05-07T02:12:15 < qyx> oh TPS63021 such adventurous
2022-05-07T02:12:44 < Mangy_Dog> >.>
2022-05-07T02:12:44 < qyx> whats that 0.1u cap there?
2022-05-07T02:12:56 < Mangy_Dog> honestly
2022-05-07T02:13:01 < Mangy_Dog> cant remember
2022-05-07T02:13:11 < Mangy_Dog> but was told a series cap would work and limit current leak
2022-05-07T02:13:24 < zyp> uh
2022-05-07T02:13:38 < Mangy_Dog> tbh
2022-05-07T02:13:45 < Mangy_Dog> im skeptical
2022-05-07T02:13:54 < Mangy_Dog> but it was suggested
2022-05-07T02:14:04 < zyp> anyway, there's no current sources there, only sinks, so it should all read as 0
2022-05-07T02:14:07 < zyp> QON is input
2022-05-07T02:14:18 < Mangy_Dog> nods
2022-05-07T02:14:58 < qyx> I am a bit skeptical too
2022-05-07T02:15:00 < zyp> so you either have the pin configured wrong, or you're leaving out some detail about where the current is coming from
2022-05-07T02:15:20 < qyx> as in, you have to toggle QON to power up the charger?
2022-05-07T02:15:39 < karlp> shit, the mange, it's spreading ;)
2022-05-07T02:15:41 < qyx> how do you plan to do it with all those resistors in place?
2022-05-07T02:15:41 < Mangy_Dog> well after where I scribbled PA9, via the connector, that goes direct to the pin nothing else
2022-05-07T02:16:17 < qyx> and also I don't get why you are configuring it as input
2022-05-07T02:16:24 < qyx> karlp: nah
2022-05-07T02:16:31 < Mangy_Dog> im detecting when the power button is pressed
2022-05-07T02:17:01 < Mangy_Dog> reading off the qon line was a easy quick way to do it without interfearing with the power latch
2022-05-07T02:17:31 < Mangy_Dog> this will turn off the hardware once i get the pin reading the signal correctly
2022-05-07T02:17:55 < qyx> meh
2022-05-07T02:18:56 < Mangy_Dog> i wondered if it was a short but i cant find any
2022-05-07T02:34:00 < Mangy_Dog> ok... its something in my program causing the issue, a new sketch and it pulls down and pulls up
2022-05-07T02:34:03 < Mangy_Dog> correctly
2022-05-07T02:35:08  * karlp bets you were driving it high with something.
2022-05-07T02:35:40 < karlp> brightside, you get it slightly re-inforced that perhaps the parts aren' _that_ fragile...?
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2022-05-07T03:13:45 < karlp> it is 5am, and the radio man says, it is a _sin_ that this only has 300k view https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR9WJSX9pnU
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2022-05-07T04:19:33 < Mangy_Dog> I suspect theres something in my tricvorder program setup thats maybe making serial 1 or something else turn on that pin
2022-05-07T04:19:40 < Mangy_Dog> it seems software not hardwre thats the issue
2022-05-07T04:20:23 < Mangy_Dog> its also 2am and i just had a couple rounds of deep rock galactic with friends
2022-05-07T04:20:29 < Mangy_Dog> ill look more into it tomorrow
2022-05-07T04:21:52 < karlp> hah you play deep rock?
2022-05-07T04:22:08 < karlp> I plyed it on the psplus demo, it's .. kinda fun
2022-05-07T04:22:45 < karlp> but yah, if it was late enough to drop coding and hit up the gaming, IMO, its far too late to try debugging coder bugz now..
2022-05-07T04:24:53 < Mangy_Dog> deffo fun with friends
2022-05-07T04:25:20 < Mangy_Dog> with voice coms in discord
2022-05-07T04:25:50 < karlp> yeah, it was kinda.... ok? as single player, 
2022-05-07T04:26:03 < karlp> I tried a little bit of co-op with rando's with no mic, 
2022-05-07T04:26:15 < Mangy_Dog> yeah i dont think i could play it with randos
2022-05-07T04:26:16 < karlp> and that was fun, in a different way, 
2022-05-07T04:26:24 < Mangy_Dog> its just good silly fun which with friends works
2022-05-07T04:26:50 < karlp> well, its so clearly a game designed for multiplay, I had to try it with more than just myself and a robot.
2022-05-07T04:27:03 < Mangy_Dog> nodnods
2022-05-07T04:27:22 < Mangy_Dog> anyway umm its now 2:30 D:
2022-05-07T04:27:25 < Mangy_Dog> must sleep
2022-05-07T04:28:34 < Mangy_Dog> sleep well when you go :)
2022-05-07T04:28:50 < karlp> it's my night to stay up
2022-05-07T04:29:26 < karlp> so I've got a pile of wine, and a ch582m that's doing BLE beacons with vendor sw, and I'm ~halfway? to cutting out the vendor hal shit and just using the vendor blob....
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2022-05-07T05:03:06 < emeb_mac> karlp: now giving a go to getting some gcc vs clang benchmarks on an H7. whiner in the mail list was claiming that clang worked better on cortex m7 
2022-05-07T05:03:56  * karlp ponders where they've heard the moving goalposts story before...
2022-05-07T05:04:42 < karlp> Imean,  sure..... h7 is oneof the parts that is far enough out there, but still, that's _bullshit_ and you and I and they and everyone else know it...
2022-05-07T05:05:20 < karlp> is that really it? they just went "nah, fuck you, h7 or gtfo, even though _I_ made claims about gcc globally" ?
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2022-05-07T05:28:41 < karlp> zyp: not your fault, but toing to tag you anyway... https://paste.jvnv.net/view/TicDf
2022-05-07T05:28:57 < karlp> "sucess! we didn't crash execution! wheee"
2022-05-07T05:56:03 < emeb_mac> karlp: yeah. "moving the goalposts" has been on my mind the whole time. I am curious about M7 though.
2022-05-07T05:58:04 < emeb_mac> one of the issues I have with GCC vs Clang compiles is that the FOSS clang linker barfs when I add sections outside of main SRAM. It makes the flash section 4GB in size. On F3xx I just removed the CCMRAM section but on H7xx I need the RAM3 section for DMA so that needs to be examined more closely.
2022-05-07T05:59:34 < karlp> well, _clearly- this is user error... :)
2022-05-07T05:59:43 < emeb_mac> karlp: lol
2022-05-07T06:00:24 < emeb_mac> that's probaly true - some idiosyncrasy of the lld linker that I'm unaware of because I haven't read the megabytes of docs.
2022-05-07T06:01:10 < karlp> asuuming it _is_ even documentnet.d
2022-05-07T06:02:09 < karlp> I mean, re: gccc, were you were aware of this insanit? https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=78903
2022-05-07T06:02:49 < karlp> hrm, 3am, I've gotta feell that chance os ispiration fixing things is getinng slim
2022-05-07T06:04:24 < karlp> how the f does this 0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR9WJSX9pnU have         500k views, but 0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR9WJSX9pnU only 300?
2022-05-07T06:12:34 < emeb_mac> karlp: interesting - I've been using section attribs like that on GCC for years w/o issues with -flto
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2022-05-07T19:45:12 < Mangy_Dog> oh i figured out why PA9 was stuck high :/
2022-05-07T19:45:36 < Mangy_Dog> bloody stupid the gameduino library im using to drive the graphics chip..... just had code that sets the pin high.... for no reason at all
2022-05-07T19:54:00 < Steffanx> Lol
2022-05-07T20:09:48 < Mangy_Dog> i really need to strip this library all the way back its very bloated
2022-05-07T20:10:01 < Mangy_Dog> and i really only use it for the basic API to the graphics chip stuff
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2022-05-07T23:39:34 < Steffanx> Are you woke catphish?
2022-05-07T23:43:54 < catphish> Steffanx: well i'm not asleep
--- Day changed su touko 08 2022
2022-05-08T01:42:55 < specing> awww where is laurencer
2022-05-08T01:43:05 < specing> this channel has been dead without him
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2022-05-08T02:04:02 < catphish> i ate him
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2022-05-08T03:10:33 < kakium69> hello early
2022-05-08T03:18:15 < catphish> hello mr kakium69
2022-05-08T03:19:09 < kakium69> you up late
2022-05-08T03:19:11 < kakium69> sup?
2022-05-08T03:20:24 < kakium69> I went to friend for sauna night
2022-05-08T03:20:49 < kakium69> then he showed me tricks with playing cards
2022-05-08T03:20:55 < kakium69> then I rode home
2022-05-08T03:21:19 < zyp> jpa-, I made a draft of the rpc code: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/fQfiw https://paste.jvnv.net/view/83o5B https://paste.jvnv.net/view/K6pi2
2022-05-08T03:30:25 < catphish> kakium69: sounds pleasant! i just drank 3 beers and watched youtube :)
2022-05-08T03:31:36 < kakium69> we drank beer too
2022-05-08T03:38:23 < catphish> british humour is killing me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXNkpZe9MeE
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2022-05-08T08:41:35 < jpa-> zyp: i made first test cuts with CNC https://photos.app.goo.gl/4fb1ciZjEwSjRMKx7
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2022-05-08T09:48:19 < benishor> https://howtoprofessionallysay.akashrajpurohit.com/
2022-05-08T09:48:33 < benishor> jpa-: noice. what is that? 3018?
2022-05-08T09:49:59 < benishor> ah no, I watched the whole movie. it's in a different class
2022-05-08T09:50:19 < benishor> what's your typical runout?
2022-05-08T09:50:39 < benishor> can you do 0.1 traces?
2022-05-08T09:54:53 < benishor> here's mine, testing a vssop-8 https://photos.app.goo.gl/h9V8QmC2yUftvw7bA
2022-05-08T09:55:06 < benishor> https://photos.app.goo.gl/ptSdU96TtkvkgRfp8
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2022-05-08T10:55:59 < jpa-> benishor: no, completely custom build
2022-05-08T10:56:55 < jpa-> can't say much about performance because that was literally the first and so far only test cut, i'll have to finish dust shields before testing too much
2022-05-08T10:57:42 < jpa-> spindle is this, it promises less than 5µm runout but i haven't measured   https://eur.vevor.com/spindle-motor-c_10130/vevor-0-8kw-er11-air-cooled-spindle-motor-24000rpm-for-milling-engraving-machine-p_010636027589
2022-05-08T10:57:58 < jpa-> my indicator only reads 10µm anyway :)
2022-05-08T11:26:22 < t4nk_freenode> https://postimg.cc/H8XnsJqs here's what I did with mine ;)
2022-05-08T11:28:19 < benishor> jpa-: nice build, congrats
2022-05-08T11:28:36 < benishor> t4nk_freenode: looks nice
2022-05-08T11:29:01 < t4nk_freenode> the above chip is .5mm pitch
2022-05-08T11:29:03 < jpa-> http://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/cnc3020_pcb.jpg  on my smaller china machine i tend to have trouble with cut width changing over the course of the milling, i think the cheap engraving bits are getting damaged because of too small RPM & bad runout on that machine
2022-05-08T11:29:13 < jpa-> (0.5 mm pitch chip in middle)
2022-05-08T11:29:33 < t4nk_freenode> I'm building a new machine atm
2022-05-08T11:30:06 < benishor> jpa-: still looks workable
2022-05-08T11:30:27 < benishor> do you guys use heightmaps when milling pcbs?
2022-05-08T11:30:35 < benishor> I tend to mill on a vacuum table 
2022-05-08T11:30:48 < t4nk_freenode> hehe, I found that it greatly depends on what settings you use, rpm can make a whole lot of difference
2022-05-08T11:30:51 < jpa-> i don't, but probably should
2022-05-08T11:31:07 < t4nk_freenode> bit I previously thought were lousy... suddenly can give great results
2022-05-08T11:31:09 < benishor> I detected bends up to 1mm in blank pcbs
2022-05-08T11:31:37 < jpa-> t4nk_freenode: what rpm do you run? my CNC3020 only goes up to 12krpm, the new machine will do 24krpm
2022-05-08T11:32:04 < t4nk_freenode> my spindle goes up to 12k
2022-05-08T11:32:14 < t4nk_freenode> but... I never go full speed
2022-05-08T11:32:44 < t4nk_freenode> I did those boards, probably at 6k
2022-05-08T11:32:49 < t4nk_freenode> very gently
2022-05-08T11:33:00 < jpa-> https://sc01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1y9SSabj1gK0jSZFuq6ArHpXaG/201545414/HTB1y9SSabj1gK0jSZFuq6ArHpXaG.jpg_.webp  CNC3020 has this
2022-05-08T11:33:17 < jpa-> t4nk_freenode: hmm, that's funny - for me higher RPM has worked better
2022-05-08T11:33:21 < benishor> jpa-: that 2015 pcb doesn't look bad at all
2022-05-08T11:33:30 < t4nk_freenode> yeah, I got some chinese spindle, 500W
2022-05-08T11:33:33 < benishor> I'm impressed knowing it's been done on chinese cnc
2022-05-08T11:33:49 < t4nk_freenode> about the same as you showed
2022-05-08T11:33:51 < benishor> any of you guys milled double sided pcbs?
2022-05-08T11:33:58 < jpa-> benishor: the traces were 0.3 mm in CAD but only 0.1 mm in reality in some places, so it is not very even quality
2022-05-08T11:34:23 < benishor> jpa-: yeah, it depends on the run1out23
2022-05-08T11:34:34 < benishor> aand on the geometry of the bit
2022-05-08T11:34:54 < jpa-> on the CNC3020, i have the problem that the cut width is not constant
2022-05-08T11:34:58 < jpa-> otherwise i could just calculate it out
2022-05-08T11:35:18 < jpa-> something is changing during the cut and it is not only the flatness of the PCB, which of course affects it also
2022-05-08T11:35:22 < t4nk_freenode> height map should take care of a lot of those issues methinks
2022-05-08T11:36:10 < jpa-> i think part of the issue is that to get 0.2 mm spaces, i have to use these very sharp 30 degree 0.1 mm cutting bits, which wear out very fast
2022-05-08T11:36:18 < t4nk_freenode> heh, but it took me quite a while to get to some decent results with my diy built cnc
2022-05-08T11:37:45 < t4nk_freenode> it worked ok, but I wanted more rigidity, that's why I made a new design
2022-05-08T11:38:14 < t4nk_freenode> the rigidity was playing parts too; if the bit digs in, then the traces go off too
2022-05-08T11:40:11 < t4nk_freenode> I used 20degrees bits for mine btw
2022-05-08T11:40:29 < t4nk_freenode> and I have 15 and 10 on hand too
2022-05-08T11:40:44 < jpa-> heh, i haven't had any rigidity issues with PCB milling, the bits are so narrow that they bend much more easily than even the flimsy CNC3020 frame
2022-05-08T11:41:36 < srk> you can probe with the bit and post-process gcode, autoleveling sort-of
2022-05-08T11:42:11 < t4nk_freenode> I did that with bCNC, auto-leveling, and later I wrote my own app to probe
2022-05-08T11:42:40 < t4nk_freenode> auto-leveling is probably a good idea, because some pcbs are crooked indeed
2022-05-08T11:42:46 < srk> yeah, we wrote it as well
2022-05-08T11:42:58 < jpa-> https://wegstr.com/mills/30-spiral-carbide-engraving-bit-flat   i've been looking at these but they are quite expensive so haven't tried
2022-05-08T11:43:34 < t4nk_freenode> mmmm I remember reading about those
2022-05-08T11:43:45 < jpa-> i'm running smoothieboard with the CNC3020 which should support mesh leveling out of the box, but it didn't improve quality when i tried it - my PCB stock is quite flat though
2022-05-08T11:44:46 < t4nk_freenode> I also 'discovered', on multiple occasions now, that the more expensive stuff is a lot better than the cheap rubbish
2022-05-08T11:45:49 < t4nk_freenode> but with such a fine v-bit... don't know man, it's expensive, and if it breaks.. you're done
2022-05-08T11:46:21 < srk> if you cut too deep the tools get dull a lot quicker
2022-05-08T11:46:23 < t4nk_freenode> and I've broken I don't know how many ... just by forgetting to attach the probe lead ;)
2022-05-08T11:46:24 < jpa-> i'm very satisfied with the vevor 800W spindle though, even with VFD it was only 150 EUR and it looks like it will be good for the whole range of 8 mm endmill in steel to tiny endmills on PCB
2022-05-08T11:46:53 < jpa-> too bad it is too large to fit on the smaller machine as upgrade :)
2022-05-08T11:47:09 < jpa-> the chinese "400W" and "500W" spindles seem to be really more like 100W
2022-05-08T11:47:30 < t4nk_freenode> my 500W seems pretty fine
2022-05-08T11:47:54 < t4nk_freenode> I'd rather have had a better one, but it does the job
2022-05-08T11:47:56 < mawk> is there a chinese division rule? when they claim X the real value is X/5
2022-05-08T11:48:10 < jpa-> what's the hardest material you can cut on it?
2022-05-08T11:48:19 < mawk> or 3000mAh batteries that are actually 1000mAh
2022-05-08T11:48:32 < srk> for pbc milling, rpm and runout is more important than power
2022-05-08T11:48:32 < jpa-> my "400W" spindle gets quite overloaded even with 4mm endmill in aluminum with 0.2 mm depth of cut
2022-05-08T11:48:39 < t4nk_freenode> oh btw, jpa- ... that test cut of yours... probably should use some cutting fluid there man
2022-05-08T11:49:05 < jpa-> t4nk_freenode: there is, you can see it sputter off - i just applied it from spray bottle before video :)
2022-05-08T11:49:15 < jpa-> haven't added flood coolant pump yet
2022-05-08T11:49:15 < t4nk_freenode> ah, yeah, I was wondering about that
2022-05-08T11:52:11 < t4nk_freenode> but otherwise it's nice, I haven't really been able to cut metal yet
2022-05-08T11:52:30 < jpa-> ok
2022-05-08T11:52:57 < t4nk_freenode> drilling worked fine with some quality bits
2022-05-08T11:53:17 < jpa-> PCB milling doesn't take much power at all indeed, so for that the 400W spindles are ok except for the terrible runout
2022-05-08T11:53:19 < t4nk_freenode> but this new design is a decent improvement, I have high hopes
2022-05-08T11:54:27 < t4nk_freenode> at some point the bearings inside the spindle will go, that'll need replacing
2022-05-08T11:55:22 < t4nk_freenode> yeah, cutting mdf was fine too
2022-05-08T11:55:29 < jpa-> it could help to replace them with better quality ones in any case
2022-05-08T11:55:38 < t4nk_freenode> sure would
2022-05-08T11:56:26 < jpa-> for the smaller machine i've been considering finding some BLDC motor with 8 mm shaft and then replacing that with one of those "8 mm ER collet extension shaft" things from eBay
2022-05-08T11:56:52 < srk> we've managed to burn angular contact bearings in DIY spindle with BLDC at like 40k RPM
2022-05-08T11:58:02 < srk> 3k kV motor could go to like 60k but cooling of the body/bearings is needed
2022-05-08T11:59:09 < srk> replacing shaft in bldc is hard, better couple it to orig. shaft
2022-05-08T11:59:52 < jpa-> getting good runout that way is difficult
2022-05-08T12:00:16 < jpa-> the "400W" spindles do that, they are just DC motors with a ER collet attached to the shaft
2022-05-08T12:00:34 < srk> check out othermill spindle for example
2022-05-08T12:01:08 < srk> https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fksr%2Fprojects%2F521092%2Fposts%2F578599%2Fimage-314603-full.jpg%3F1377291875&f=1&nofb=1
2022-05-08T12:01:34 < jpa-> that will probably work fine for low power milling like PCBs
2022-05-08T12:01:45 < jpa-> but i want something that can do a very wide range of tasks
2022-05-08T12:02:02 < srk> yeah, high speed couple and angular contact bearings :)
2022-05-08T12:02:06 < srk> *coupler
2022-05-08T12:03:07 < srk> it's doable if you have good tools to precisely machine the body so everything is aligned
2022-05-08T12:04:40 < srk> this one is pretty rad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6ZkF2Vv1S0
2022-05-08T12:05:13 < jpa-> pressing out the shaft of a motor, replacing bearings with better quality double row ball bearings and reassembling seems the easiest way without a lathe
2022-05-08T12:08:03 < srk> might work. we did it with one motor but didn't replace bearings. ended up bit too loud
2022-05-08T12:08:28 < srk> lots of heat required
2022-05-08T12:17:44 < Steffanx> What material are you cncing there jpa? Random aluminium?
2022-05-08T12:17:54 < jpa-> Steffanx: mild steel
2022-05-08T12:18:35 < Steffanx> Oh fancy
2022-05-08T12:19:02 < jpa-> (S235JR alloy)
2022-05-08T12:20:40 < jpa-> https://photos.app.goo.gl/h89pK4zDV5U5pjpg8   surface finish is also pretty nice on the edge where it was more like finishing pass, a bit of chatter visible in the slotting cut
2022-05-08T12:31:21 < zyp> jpa-, nice
2022-05-08T12:36:59 < zyp> the insertion point stuff in protoc works nicely, I put a bit more work into the host support code last night and added a generator, works nicely
2022-05-08T12:39:39 < zyp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/W8bXj
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2022-05-08T15:22:56 < benishor> I bought the wegstr bits and they are good indeed
2022-05-08T15:23:05 < benishor> however, they are very overprices and I found them cheaper in germany
2022-05-08T15:23:23 < jpa-> locally or do you have a link?
2022-05-08T15:25:52 < benishor> just a sec, I am looking for the link. I bought them online
2022-05-08T15:30:56 < benishor> (still looking for those)
2022-05-08T15:31:06 < benishor> meanwhile, some that I also tried and yielded beautiful results  http://www.frezycnc.eu/pcb-online-catalog/drilling-milling-and-routing/mechanical-etching-bits-pcb-trace-isolation-tools/pcb-mechanical-etching-bits-2-flute/
2022-05-08T15:34:35 < benishor> these
2022-05-08T15:34:37 < benishor> https://www.sorotec.de/shop/Cutting-Tools/sorotec-tools/Engraving-bits/V-Router-Bit-164/
2022-05-08T15:35:13 < benishor> I ended up getting LGS.0030 and LGS.3175.15.01
2022-05-08T15:37:21 < benishor> https://hq.scene.ro/wegstr-vs-sorotec.mp4
2022-05-08T15:37:31 < benishor> wegstr bit is on the left, the sorotec one is on the right
2022-05-08T15:43:19 < Steffanx> You have the 800W spindle mr jpa- ? The website is confusing with the comments all of 10 other products.
2022-05-08T15:44:44 < jpa-> Steffanx: i have this https://eur.vevor.com/spindle-motor-c_10130/vevor-0-8kw-er11-air-cooled-spindle-motor-24000rpm-for-milling-engraving-machine-p_010636027589   and yeah, their review system is strange
2022-05-08T15:44:52 < benishor> he said he has the 0.8KW one iirc
2022-05-08T15:45:13 < benishor> I have a water cooled one. I was afraid of extra noise
2022-05-08T15:45:36 < benishor> not to mention the air blowing debris around
2022-05-08T15:46:08 < benishor> the downside is I need a bucket of water when I turn on the pump
2022-05-08T15:46:18 < jpa-> i might upgrade to a water cooled one at some point, for better cooling when running at low speeds
2022-05-08T15:47:24 < benishor> I auotmated the start/stop of the pump with a thermometer sensing spindle's temperature
2022-05-08T15:47:35 < benishor> so it's hassle free
2022-05-08T15:47:50 < jpa-> sounds weird, why not just start it when the spindle starts
2022-05-08T15:48:35 < benishor> minimize noise
2022-05-08T15:48:38 < benishor> and consumption
2022-05-08T15:49:23 < benishor> if you go for a water cooled one, you will want to put some wiper fluid liquid in the water or something
2022-05-08T15:49:42 < benishor> just so you won't have bacteria growing in there and filling up the cooling circuit
2022-05-08T15:56:04 < jpa-> yeah
2022-05-08T16:05:48 < jpa-> benishor: thanks for the link btw, they are indeed significantly cheaper
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2022-05-08T16:48:45 < Mangy_Dog> I am not a hppy boy! https://twitter.com/MD_Builds/status/1523298373293334528
2022-05-08T17:10:10 < karlp> how do you make pcbs without even finishing drc?
2022-05-08T17:10:16 < Mangy_Dog> >.>
2022-05-08T17:10:26 < Mangy_Dog> im stupid
2022-05-08T17:10:42 < Mangy_Dog> and i mostly only used drc to check trace clearences and what not
2022-05-08T17:10:43 < karlp> yep, that's totally on you.
2022-05-08T17:10:46 < Mangy_Dog> yes
2022-05-08T17:10:47 < Mangy_Dog> totally on me
2022-05-08T17:10:54 < Mangy_Dog> utterly my stupid fault
2022-05-08T17:11:11 < karlp> I mean, that would been in the gutter as "1 unrouted net" still even.
2022-05-08T17:11:17 < Mangy_Dog> i really need to get strict on my drc use and putting x on unconnected pads and actually check things like unconnected pad errors
2022-05-08T17:11:30 < karlp> yes, it's what tthey are for.
2022-05-08T17:11:34 < Mangy_Dog> nods
2022-05-08T17:12:08 < Mangy_Dog> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FSPZW-AWUAAsgfJ?format=jpg&name=large and it was such a smart looking PCB too :p
2022-05-08T17:12:18 < Mangy_Dog> now its going to have a bodge wire making it look ugly :/
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2022-05-08T17:48:53 < jpa-> why did you get 20 PCBs assembled if it is the first prototype?
2022-05-08T17:53:49 < Mangy_Dog> I had faith that the changes i had done were good :/
2022-05-08T17:54:06 < Mangy_Dog> ie the only real change was the power system
2022-05-08T17:54:15 < Mangy_Dog> anyway the bodge https://twitter.com/MD_Builds/status/1523314877766709249
2022-05-08T17:54:56 < jpa-> wtf are you using as fixup wire?
2022-05-08T17:57:45 < Mangy_Dog> copper tape and a little wire
2022-05-08T17:59:52 < Mangy_Dog> ive not got any enammled wrapping wire at the moment... just ordered some
2022-05-08T18:00:08 < Mangy_Dog> this board is going to be my own tricorder soooo all the tests and experiemnting the fixes is on this one :/
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2022-05-08T19:33:04 < Steffanx> Benishor does use a dust shoe with vacuum with his cnc?
2022-05-08T19:33:08 < Steffanx> Doesnt*
2022-05-08T19:33:34 < Steffanx> And no pics of your wonderful creation?
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2022-05-08T21:12:49 < benishor> Steffanx: https://www.grbl.org/romanian-router
2022-05-08T21:12:51 < benishor> this is mine
2022-05-08T21:13:09 < benishor> a friend did the mechanical part for me, I did the rest
2022-05-08T21:14:26 < benishor> and no, I didn't add a dustshoe yet
2022-05-08T21:18:50 < Steffanx> ooh nice :)
2022-05-08T21:25:31 < benishor> yeah, I am space constrained in my room :)
2022-05-08T21:26:05 < benishor> which serves as work/research/fun space for programming, electronics, rf, guitar
2022-05-08T21:26:44 < benishor> too much stuff to fit into 10 square meters
2022-05-08T21:28:33 < catphish> benishor: that sounds almost identical to my room :) https://imgur.com/a/dDqzTSP
2022-05-08T21:30:32 < BrainDamage> how do you select which holes to use for the vacuum base?
2022-05-08T21:31:39 < benishor> BrainDamage: there are a couple of "sources" which you can cover if you don't use
2022-05-08T21:31:47 < benishor> I usually tend to use the lower left side
2022-05-08T21:32:11 < benishor> catphish: your room looks clean and nicely arranged compared to mine
2022-05-08T21:33:14 < benishor> BrainDamage: on the PCB combined table I only have one vacuum hole
2022-05-08T21:33:21 < benishor> bottom left corner
2022-05-08T21:33:54 < benishor> and then I use a flexible cord to establish the vacuum perimeter
2022-05-08T21:34:05 < BrainDamage> ahhh
2022-05-08T21:34:38 < benishor> a video of my machine in tests https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePq5sOeIUt0&ab_channel=florianMates
2022-05-08T21:35:30 < catphish> benishor: it was only finished about a month ago, so still looks tidy, for now :)
2022-05-08T21:35:30 < benishor> that's my friend, not me
2022-05-08T21:35:48 < benishor> catphish: dunno man, I usually make a mess out of my workplace as soon as I get started
2022-05-08T21:36:00 < benishor> it's really hard to have things tidied up
2022-05-08T21:38:14 < catphish> the big cupboard is a lifesaver for my boxes of electronics junk :)
2022-05-08T21:38:35 < benishor> https://photos.app.goo.gl/JhHCVxTtvAUECFua8
2022-05-08T21:38:41 < benishor> just took some pics
2022-05-08T21:38:55 < benishor> so you can witness the horror
2022-05-08T21:38:58 < Steffanx> professional monitor stand there :D
2022-05-08T21:39:20 < benishor> the books making the stand are more professional :D
2022-05-08T21:39:21 < catphish> i think your has a bit more space than mine, but a lot more stuff :)
2022-05-08T21:39:41 < benishor> I also have a 5yo running around, painting my walls in various colours
2022-05-08T21:39:51 < catphish> we have similar mechanical keyboard :)
2022-05-08T21:40:12 < benishor> hi5
2022-05-08T21:41:22 < catphish> yours has stupid american layout though
2022-05-08T21:41:42 < Steffanx> whats the alternative?
2022-05-08T21:41:50 < catphish> good british layout
2022-05-08T21:42:18 < catphish> mostly the enter key is more whackable on british layout
2022-05-08T21:42:44 < benishor> thanks but no thanks
2022-05-08T21:42:49 < benishor> I for one welcome our US overlords
2022-05-08T21:43:10 < benishor> US101 is embeded in my genes
2022-05-08T21:43:33 < BrainDamage> https://d33v4339jhl8k0.cloudfront.net/docs/assets/580efc3cc697915f88a37b05/images/5d6d9bb504286350aeeb5bab/file-MN1mbSWqr9.jpg
2022-05-08T21:43:37 < BrainDamage> just uso iso layout
2022-05-08T21:44:33 < catphish> we like our massive return key https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/102-key_Model_M.jpg
2022-05-08T21:44:43 < benishor> but why? I like the US layout
2022-05-08T21:45:06 < benishor> https://imgur.com/a/Tw0IY37
2022-05-08T21:45:55 < catphish> haha
2022-05-08T21:46:08 < \dev\ice> I prefere ANSI
2022-05-08T21:47:32 < benishor> I don't think there's a better way, just whatever works for someone
2022-05-08T21:48:44 < catphish> you guys all suck, ISO is clearly more superior :D
2022-05-08T21:48:52 < Steffanx> Yes boss
2022-05-08T21:50:08 < Steffanx> lol at the music that is playing in that video with your CNC benishor
2022-05-08T21:50:17 < Steffanx> @ the end
2022-05-08T21:50:19 < \dev\ice> main disatvantage for ISO is lack/wrong placement of '\' 
2022-05-08T21:50:34 < Steffanx> considering that video is from ~ june
2022-05-08T21:51:41 < benishor> Steffanx: yeah, not my music, I was saying that video is from my friend
2022-05-08T21:51:51 < benishor> but with my machine
2022-05-08T21:53:16 < Steffanx> i know 
2022-05-08T21:54:11 < Steffanx> thats why i said the video with your cnc, not your video :P
2022-05-08T21:56:04 < kakium69> catphish: massive? thats standard size
2022-05-08T21:56:15 < kakium69> around here at least
2022-05-08T21:56:31 < benishor> my friend loves music, what can I say
2022-05-08T21:56:42 < benishor> I love music too, but a bit different
2022-05-08T21:58:39 < Steffanx> and xmas songs in june :)
2022-05-08T22:01:09 < kakium69> nice workshop acoustics benishor
2022-05-08T22:02:26 < kakium69> sounds like large garage or something with radio at a corner
2022-05-08T22:05:18 < kakium69> sometimes in big workshop when it's silent you can hear sound of music from somewhere and when you go look there is small radio on top of lathe or something blasting 247
2022-05-08T22:06:14 < kakium69> barelly giving enough sound locally
2022-05-08T22:24:44 < benishor> <Steffanx> and xmas songs in june :)
2022-05-08T22:24:52 < benishor> video was uploaded later :)
2022-05-08T22:39:17 < kakium69> qyx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDIFGGuA3xE your video recommends are synched to my tubes now
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2022-05-08T23:19:43 < zyp> jpa-, I experimented with a zerocopy solution for bytes: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/Y610T
2022-05-08T23:22:00 < zyp> decoding side is dead simple; as long as the input iterator is a contiguous_iterator, it just creates a span of it, giving a view with the same lifetime as the original parsed buffer, easy and simple
2022-05-08T23:23:29 < zyp> for encoding, I could just copy from the span to the output iterator, but that wouldn't really be zerocopy
2022-05-08T23:23:48 < zyp> still a potentially worthwhile solution
2022-05-08T23:24:11 < Mangy_Dog> why no worky?
2022-05-08T23:24:15 < Mangy_Dog> return ( (3.3*(value / 4096)) * (300000 / (300000 + 1000000)) ); //should give me a range of 0-5V but.... getting 0... 
2022-05-08T23:24:29 < zyp> 0 is in the range of 0-5
2022-05-08T23:24:32 < Mangy_Dog> im trying to read my battery voltage but im just getting 0
2022-05-08T23:24:57 < zyp> anyway, you're doing integer division
2022-05-08T23:25:04 < Mangy_Dog> i called it in a float
2022-05-08T23:25:22 < zyp> doesn't matter, the inner operations are integer division
2022-05-08T23:25:26 < Mangy_Dog> or do i need to cast float in every value?
2022-05-08T23:25:54 < zyp> (300000 / (300000 + 1000000)) by itself evaluates to 0 before you turn it to float, and anything you multiply with 0 stays 0
2022-05-08T23:26:33 < zyp> what you want to do is use float literals for everything, not integer literals
2022-05-08T23:26:50 < Mangy_Dog> .0
2022-05-08T23:26:52 < Mangy_Dog> ?
2022-05-08T23:27:00 < zyp> .0f
2022-05-08T23:27:03 < Mangy_Dog> oh
2022-05-08T23:27:20 < zyp> .0 without the f are double literals
2022-05-08T23:27:44 < Mangy_Dog> oh
2022-05-08T23:28:50 < Mangy_Dog> well no longer getting zero :D
2022-05-08T23:28:52 < zyp> using double literals may cause the compiler to do perform double operations rather than float, i.e. more expensive
2022-05-08T23:28:58 < Mangy_Dog> but also not getting the correct value :/
2022-05-08T23:29:24 < Mangy_Dog> getting 70.77.... instead of 4.2
2022-05-08T23:29:29 < zyp> not much difference on a f103 without fpu at all, but on m4, float would be significantly faster than double
2022-05-08T23:29:39 < Mangy_Dog> nods
2022-05-08T23:30:11 < Mangy_Dog> tbh if this needed to be fast id just push the . down the value a hundred or so
2022-05-08T23:30:20 < Mangy_Dog> ie tiems everything by 100 or 1000
2022-05-08T23:30:29 < zyp> ?
2022-05-08T23:30:46 < Mangy_Dog> pull numbers out of float into int... but at the cost of accuracy
2022-05-08T23:33:37 < zyp> you've got a 12-bit integer input, you could absolutely do the calculation to some fixedpoint representation without any accuracy loss at all
2022-05-08T23:34:07 < zyp> I mean, generally it's the other way around
2022-05-08T23:34:20 < zyp> floating point numbers give you more range at the cost of accuracy
2022-05-08T23:34:44 < Mangy_Dog> ah
2022-05-08T23:36:08 < zyp> so you've got a 1Mohm / 300kohm voltage divider on the battery voltage?
2022-05-08T23:36:25 < Mangy_Dog> yep
2022-05-08T23:37:02 < zyp> got a cap or anything on the centerpoint?
2022-05-08T23:37:10 < Mangy_Dog> yep
2022-05-08T23:37:20 < zyp> how big?
2022-05-08T23:37:36 < zyp> I mean, might as well just find the schematic
2022-05-08T23:37:49 < Mangy_Dog> .1uf
2022-05-08T23:38:31 < zyp> what's the integer value the ADC is reading?
2022-05-08T23:39:12 < Mangy_Dog> the adc value i checked before seemd to be around where i expected
2022-05-08T23:39:19 < Mangy_Dog> i mean roughly
2022-05-08T23:39:42 < zyp> sure, but I need a number if you want me to run the calculation for you
2022-05-08T23:39:47 < Mangy_Dog> ahh
2022-05-08T23:39:51 < Mangy_Dog> umm one min ill recheck
2022-05-08T23:39:59 < Mangy_Dog> need to throw in a debug code :D
2022-05-08T23:43:32 < Mangy_Dog> hmmm
2022-05-08T23:43:41 < Mangy_Dog> 3825
2022-05-08T23:43:42 < Mangy_Dog> ish
2022-05-08T23:43:52 < Mangy_Dog> and the input voltage is 4.2v
2022-05-08T23:44:04 < Mangy_Dog> but i suspect theres a mv or two being lost by the time it gets to the devider
2022-05-08T23:45:07 < zyp> can I have a look at the schematic?
2022-05-08T23:45:16 < Mangy_Dog> err not easily :D
2022-05-08T23:45:20 < Mangy_Dog> its spread over a few pages
2022-05-08T23:45:22 < Mangy_Dog> but
2022-05-08T23:45:36 < zyp> a pdf can contain multiple pages…
2022-05-08T23:46:05 < Mangy_Dog> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/695271473308237985/972962599547306044/unknown.png
2022-05-08T23:46:12 < Mangy_Dog> id rather not give out the WHOLE project
2022-05-08T23:47:00 < Mangy_Dog> sys is the battery line
2022-05-08T23:47:00 < zyp> ah, your divider is upside down compared to what your math suggests
2022-05-08T23:47:04 < Mangy_Dog> oh
2022-05-08T23:47:25 < zyp> and your division is also upside down
2022-05-08T23:47:46 < zyp> you want ((1e6 + 300e3) / 1e6)
2022-05-08T23:48:25 < zyp> >>> 3.3 * (3825 / 4096) * ((1e6 + 300e3) / 1e6)
2022-05-08T23:48:25 < zyp> 4.00616455078125
2022-05-08T23:48:52 < Mangy_Dog> hmmmm
2022-05-08T23:49:03 < Mangy_Dog> so 2mv lost
2022-05-08T23:49:16 < Mangy_Dog> will have to check that against the scope
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2022-05-08T23:50:41 < Mangy_Dog> thank you :)
2022-05-08T23:50:43 < zyp> the problem is that when the ADC is sampling, it's pulling current, and C37 is probably too small to keep that from affecting the voltage
2022-05-08T23:50:45 < Mangy_Dog> at least its close to what it needs to be
2022-05-08T23:51:06 < Mangy_Dog> hmm
2022-05-08T23:51:17 < Mangy_Dog> because my devider is too high ?
2022-05-08T23:51:20 < zyp> yes
2022-05-08T23:51:22 < Mangy_Dog> nods
2022-05-08T23:51:35 < Mangy_Dog> 30/100k?
2022-05-08T23:51:37 < Mangy_Dog> better?
2022-05-08T23:52:07 < zyp> I'd expect it to be better, but not good enough
2022-05-08T23:52:33 < Mangy_Dog> i didnt really want to allow any leakage wasted power where possible so i went with a lot of high resistor values where i could get away with it
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2022-05-08T23:53:02 < lemmi> one count is about 1mV, so it's not that bad currently
2022-05-08T23:53:30 < zyp> generally if you want good ADC measurements from an unbuffered divider, you need a fairly significant current in the divider, so one common trick is to add a transistor to turn off the divider when you're not measuring
2022-05-08T23:53:58 < zyp> 4.006 is about 5% off from 4.2
2022-05-08T23:54:30 < lemmi> oh.. input was 4.2
2022-05-08T23:55:11 < zyp> yeah, if the 4.2V figure is right, you're around 200mV off
2022-05-08T23:55:45 < lemmi> i mean, you can always do nasty things in software and calibrate it that way
2022-05-08T23:56:16 < qyx> aren't you reading too frequently?
2022-05-08T23:56:20 < zyp> yes, assuming the deviation stays constant over part and environment variances
2022-05-08T23:56:30 < qyx> Mangy_Dog: ^
2022-05-08T23:56:40 < zyp> qyx, that's also a fair point
2022-05-08T23:56:45 < Mangy_Dog> nodnods
2022-05-08T23:57:00 < qyx> because 0.1u is okish for thatdivider
2022-05-08T23:57:17 < zyp> if you're sampling continously, the capacitor might not have time to ever charge fully 
2022-05-08T23:58:22 < Mangy_Dog> naa
2022-05-08T23:58:28 < Mangy_Dog> once every 40ms
--- Day changed ma touko 09 2022
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2022-05-09T00:08:47 < qyx> kakium69: lol
2022-05-09T00:09:49 < kakium69> by video it doesn't seem to be that big issue having no locks
2022-05-09T00:10:39 < kakium69> because of articulation in middle on forwards axis
2022-05-09T00:10:58 < kakium69> each side wheel have rather similar load all the time
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2022-05-09T00:18:55 < qyx> looks hardly usable
2022-05-09T00:19:35 < qyx> the traction mainly, changing fwd/rev, etc.
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2022-05-09T00:34:01 < karlp> what'ðs the objdump/readelf trick to see everythin gin a section?
2022-05-09T00:34:23 < zyp> -D ?
2022-05-09T00:34:39 < karlp> that's looking better.
2022-05-09T00:34:50 < karlp> was still in readelf, objdump -D looks like it might be good enough
2022-05-09T00:35:10 < karlp> trying to figure out what -else_ I need to port/copy from the wch code to make the blob work.
2022-05-09T00:35:21 < karlp> I get callbacsk from the blob saying it's running,
2022-05-09T00:35:24 < karlp> it just... isn't.
2022-05-09T00:38:42 < karlp> I'e got a machine translation of their BT SDK, and it makes ~no mention of any irq or other requirements, which seems... suspicious
2022-05-09T00:38:59 < karlp> so I'm a little concerned that my PFIC setup doesn't match what they want/need :)
2022-05-09T00:39:25 < karlp> BB_RAM_IRQHandler and LLE_RAM_IRQHandler sound like they might be important....
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2022-05-09T01:06:07 < kakium69> qyx: I made same notes. car tyres in that use and going through gear pattern to change direction
2022-05-09T01:06:55 < kakium69> comments recommended chains and that could really work
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2022-05-09T09:04:01 < jpa-> zyp: for encoding, you could just guess length 1 prefix, set up the span based on that and move the data only if the assumption turns out false
2022-05-09T09:09:09 < jpa-> zyp: i guess if you had very fancy iterators, you could set the span for length 1 prefix, then move when size exceeds 127 bytes - that way you have least data to move
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2022-05-09T10:24:31 < zyp> jpa-, I've started to think that output iterators in general are a pain to work with, so maybe it'd make more sense to just flip the whole encoding side around
2022-05-09T10:32:32 < zyp> hmm, nah, the state tracking that involves is nontrivial
2022-05-09T10:34:59 < zyp> there's a lot of fancy possibilities for all sorts of things, but many of them either introduces ownership issues, or requires a lot of dynamic allocation, and I don't want either
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2022-05-09T11:40:13 < mawk> Steffanx: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/dec/04/jonhenley
2022-05-09T11:42:01 < Steffanx> Tldr; but lol
2022-05-09T12:06:57 < mawk> >Dutch maths teacher admits fake communist party scam that fooled Mao Zedong
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2022-05-09T14:54:03 < ventYl> hm, it seems that my merger of unicore_mx into locm3 wasn't completely and totally useless
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2022-05-09T15:11:09 < karlp> how so?
2022-05-09T15:11:35 < karlp> I mean, you clearly did it to get something right? and it workede?
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2022-05-09T15:15:50 < ventYl> there is some pull request adding another nrf device, so it apparently found at least one other user
2022-05-09T15:16:11 < ventYl> if I was the only user, I could simply keep the code private or use unicore mx
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2022-05-09T16:00:20 < fenugrec> burnt 200A fuse https://ibb.co/G37fjCN
2022-05-09T16:10:52 < zyp> very good
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2022-05-09T16:41:03 < aandrew> fenugrec: just a guess, but thinking that was an overload rather than a short due to the melt pool rather than vapor deposition :-)
2022-05-09T16:41:57 < fenugrec> aandrew, I can confirm 100% it was a short
2022-05-09T16:42:05 < aandrew> fenugrec: interesting
2022-05-09T16:42:14 < aandrew> so much for my analytical skills
2022-05-09T16:42:41 < fenugrec> it broke the glass, but I'm not sure if it was already cracked or weakened. Or the wire sprayed onto the glass, cooled into a puddle, and shattered the window
2022-05-09T16:43:00 < jpa-> at 200A, the short circuit current ratio may not be large enough to get the very fast vaporization
2022-05-09T16:43:13 < jpa-> because even thick cable is a resistor at such currents
2022-05-09T16:43:18 < fenugrec> also true
2022-05-09T16:43:37 < aandrew> jpa-: when I was in power electronics a short was usually much less "interesting" than an overload since the thermal energy just wasn't there
2022-05-09T16:43:39 < fenugrec> there was inductance involved too
2022-05-09T16:44:11 < aandrew> the weirdest thing I ever saw was a resettable fuse. I think this was 2300 or 4160V, the fuse element was intended to be replaced after it blew
2022-05-09T16:44:44 < aandrew> the fuse body itself was the size and diameter of a grown man's upper arm
2022-05-09T16:45:03 < aandrew> those weren't even the big ones, just the one I remember working with
2022-05-09T16:47:48 < jpa-> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:MEM_1957_fuseholders.jpg  it used to be that you only replaced the wire
2022-05-09T16:48:06 < fenugrec> nice
2022-05-09T16:48:33 < fenugrec> well if there's nothing flammable around it, why not
2022-05-09T16:48:34 < aandrew> jpa-: hah I never saw that before
2022-05-09T16:49:08 < jpa-> https://flameport.com/electric_museum/old_fuses/pifco_fuse_wires.cs4
2022-05-09T17:03:03 < karlp> heh, we used to have some of those cards i our old fuse box when I was a kid
2022-05-09T17:03:09 < karlp> I remember dad doing it a couple of times.
2022-05-09T17:04:48 < fenugrec> I think I'd even prefer that kind of fuse over the notoriously unreliable stab-lok breakers I currently have
2022-05-09T17:07:51 < karlp> we did it as an experiemnt in like year 10 or something too, bench supply, "big" wires alligator clipped to pins stuck in cork with thin wire across the pins to be a "fuse"
2022-05-09T17:16:50 < Mangy_Dog> im sure i asked this before but what IDE do you guys write in? eclipse/sloeber is pissing me right off at the moment... Its showing errors where there are non. and not finding functions where there are some, in other header/cpp files above where im calling
2022-05-09T17:17:13 < Mangy_Dog> some really strange cross indexing/linker issues where it works in some cases but not in others
2022-05-09T17:17:16 < Mangy_Dog> its so infuriating
2022-05-09T17:21:48 < ventYl> i am not using ide. and it also pisses me off, because it fell apart
2022-05-09T17:57:31 < Mangy_Dog> is my issue with stuff not linking right sometimes.... because i dont split my cpp and headers properly sometimes?
2022-05-09T17:57:40 < Mangy_Dog> IE i might put all the code in just a header file rather than split
2022-05-09T18:03:18 < ventYl> if you get "symbol already exists" error, then yes
2022-05-09T18:03:41 < ventYl> this means, that you managed to define an instance of class/whatever multiple times just by including header more than once
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2022-05-09T18:06:07 < Mangy_Dog> sadly thats not my error
2022-05-09T18:06:11 < Mangy_Dog> im getting not defined errors
2022-05-09T18:06:31 < Mangy_Dog> even though the function or class is created back up in the program, maybe in another header
2022-05-09T18:07:18 < ventYl> well, if you intend to use some symbol, then it *has* to be included or forward declared in current compilation unit
2022-05-09T18:07:41 < ventYl> sole fact that it exists somewhere else in resulting binary does not matter
2022-05-09T18:08:13 < Mangy_Dog> it is included
2022-05-09T18:08:23 < Mangy_Dog> thats just it
2022-05-09T18:08:30 < Mangy_Dog> its all included
2022-05-09T18:08:30 < ventYl> then you might have chicken-egg problem
2022-05-09T18:08:43 < ventYl> include includes include which contains #ifndef .. #define or #pragma once
2022-05-09T18:09:07 < ventYl> then the order in which includes are actually presented to the compiler might differ from what it looks like in source file
2022-05-09T18:09:08 < Mangy_Dog> ifndef is there
2022-05-09T18:09:50 < Mangy_Dog> tbh if i include the files within the other headers as well... i get the feeling im jsut going to get strange localised copies of the code
2022-05-09T18:10:00 < Mangy_Dog> which will just increase program size
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2022-05-09T18:10:23 < ventYl> normally, headers should not create any code on their own, until used by the cpp file
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2022-05-09T18:10:39 < Mangy_Dog> hmmhmm
2022-05-09T18:10:40 < ventYl> and if you have chicken-egg problem, then you should use forward declarations
2022-05-09T18:11:23 < ventYl> such that if you use some class in header just as pointer to object or reference to object, then don't include target-class header, instead, put forward declare for it
2022-05-09T18:11:35 < ventYl> you'll include header later in cpp file which provides implementation
2022-05-09T18:11:59 < Mangy_Dog> hm
2022-05-09T18:12:08 < Mangy_Dog> ok im gonna start with splitting my headers into cpp files too
2022-05-09T18:12:37 < ventYl> and yeah, don't try to be smarter than the compiler
2022-05-09T18:12:44 < ventYl> it's hard to become one
2022-05-09T18:12:45 < Mangy_Dog> tbh
2022-05-09T18:12:49 < Mangy_Dog> its not trying to be smarter
2022-05-09T18:12:58 < Mangy_Dog> i just dont like how h and cpp needs to be split
2022-05-09T18:13:02 < Mangy_Dog> i prefer single file modules
2022-05-09T18:15:41 < ventYl> until modules are fully supported in C++, this is not an option
2022-05-09T18:16:00 < ventYl> at least not an option without considerable drawbacks
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2022-05-09T18:34:04 < ventYl> who ordered std::chrono?
2022-05-09T18:41:21 < oz4ga> fenugrec: Which circuit is that fuse taken from? 100A Thats hefty. An electrode welder ?
2022-05-09T18:49:05 < oz4ga> 200A even
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2022-05-09T19:24:17 < zyp> ventYl, they are supported in gcc11
2022-05-09T19:25:12 < fenugrec> oz4ga battery pack
2022-05-09T19:25:21 < zyp> probably not *fully* supported, but I think it's good enough to put to use, once gcc11 availability gets reasonable enough
2022-05-09T19:25:42 < zyp> (and build systems gets able to cope)
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2022-05-09T21:44:04 < Mangy_Dog> grrrrr
2022-05-09T21:44:08 < Mangy_Dog> linker is most deffo broken
2022-05-09T21:44:16 < Mangy_Dog> spent ages splitting my headers into cpp and headers
2022-05-09T21:44:58 < Mangy_Dog> and it cant even recognise uint8_t even though its only just 1 include up the include tree to the arduino.h header that connets to core that has that def
2022-05-09T21:46:32 < Steffanx> Take a breath, look carefully at what youre doing and dont blame your tools :P
2022-05-09T21:47:03 < Mangy_Dog> :/
2022-05-09T21:47:08 < Mangy_Dog> its deffo not me this time
2022-05-09T21:47:24 < Mangy_Dog> at least... not obviousely me
2022-05-09T21:47:42 < specing> Take a breath, look carefully at arduino.h and reconsider your life's choices
2022-05-09T21:48:20 < Mangy_Dog> id like to move to locm3
2022-05-09T21:48:21 < Steffanx> Yes it is you  Mangy_Dog :P
2022-05-09T21:48:30 < Mangy_Dog> but im not prepared to do the whole rewrite to make it work with it
2022-05-09T21:48:42 < Mangy_Dog> maybe
2022-05-09T21:48:45 < Mangy_Dog> but i cant figure out what
2022-05-09T21:49:08 < specing> Mangy_Dog: while you are doing a full rewrite you could upgrade to Ada
2022-05-09T21:49:14 < Mangy_Dog> ada?
2022-05-09T21:49:18 < specing> yes
2022-05-09T21:49:23 < Mangy_Dog> never heard of it
2022-05-09T21:50:08 < specing> Mangy_Dog: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_(programming_language)
2022-05-09T21:50:29 < Steffanx> specing keeps trying
2022-05-09T21:50:47 < Mangy_Dog> looks at the examples.......
2022-05-09T21:50:50 < Mangy_Dog> no im good thanks :d
2022-05-09T21:50:53 < Mangy_Dog> id stick to c base
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2022-05-09T22:01:59 < catphish> morning
2022-05-09T22:02:31 < kakium69> morgon
2022-05-09T22:05:40 < ventYl> nah
2022-05-09T22:06:26 < ventYl> Mangy_Dog: if you get compile errors about stuff not found, linker is not even involved yet
2022-05-09T22:07:04 < Mangy_Dog> something deffo is not working
2022-05-09T22:07:31 < Mangy_Dog> i currently have 181 errors :/
2022-05-09T22:08:49 < ventYl> 99 little bugs in the code. take one down
2022-05-09T22:08:56 < ventYl> 181 little bugs in the code. la la la
2022-05-09T22:08:57 < Mangy_Dog> thats jut it
2022-05-09T22:09:13 < Mangy_Dog> theyre not bugs in code :P its the linker not linking my headers correcctly
2022-05-09T22:09:19 < Mangy_Dog> if i put EVERYTHING in the ino file it would work
2022-05-09T22:10:27 < catphish> kakium69: today i made a lid for my box :) https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/0Ksf0XZoE6NlPe3jTKEKpAl4nKgky8LjHVw3apDEpCtwAlEGABddzk0yxmNC6u7oAla150-2DQruKwWtd-NaJplypEOiNG7zttv_XpsMQoPgeJPVNhkO798SuxgFto-bRRfjWnABa6HYvbWmsFyPCEGBNHx86M0RtdikjacAZl8BMJmgZrZWAC-WH5GgRjwu4ri6KsY2Jb9HqBmM_GEr_jIOf6H407Trpn72FMIiyhQFU4K3uck31tMxQzk11vJKCfXFBP8s9qHCkGvIfv4UJoEidwYsi3tp8zVyRcr4hmXJ7gyLaA9NPh0yMIBgdj_S3RTubcBIrUutU6G-rj5SstVYQ9gyIV0VdfWbqotSIenUMmv4ZEL4XOlRuhWEk
2022-05-09T22:10:28 < catphish> O1kAYJuSfZEkmwtkakYcQR8HAYkD3XJ9XncGmi6KkBP3wMZJSM12pzO_O98Y6heX9NTsVho4W8Gq61SFYkrtk-IP1gKtruIhgy1_-6_RNKmP3THkpYoF2MghDqd6sYyDsSLNcW9VZMJ_HqNed11v0BAYwRNO7foQQ0q-3N7hJwkKZMnT0yOE-Uv5dCPI7eFGCTc-1ApKFRuniETo9Mrars4khuSo3WflFPodpQsw4DMdSzlO3IK1SWwpV6X0gIjeUx99YcRzjR7fsvllNyjOESP-eMfH33oTkWUjKM8UCmdFtmNp71UsyJChDbL2DS4Y1mQVShRBrQSvQWV8zZCuT8VVf1vXDU5NoFs_dWLTi1fDBJL8xLJniGAmomQndl5NeY=w1159-h869-no?authuser=0
2022-05-09T22:10:30 < catphish> eww
2022-05-09T22:10:35 < Mangy_Dog> :o
2022-05-09T22:10:48 < kakium69> try again catphish
2022-05-09T22:11:10 < catphish> kakium69: https://i.imgur.com/G6uZWef.jpg
2022-05-09T22:11:43 < kakium69> hmm
2022-05-09T22:11:59 < catphish> i also mounted the 2 lengths of angle underneath ready to bolt to the frame, you can't really see that except that the box is raised off the table
2022-05-09T22:12:14 < kakium69> just was about to ask
2022-05-09T22:13:17 < catphish> kakium69: i should be able to fully assemble it tomorrow!
2022-05-09T22:14:11 < kakium69> gib it paint
2022-05-09T22:14:23 < catphish> better images: https://imgur.com/a/QQns7W0
2022-05-09T22:15:29 < catphish> once it's finished and tested, i will disassamble it, send it to be powder coated, and re-assmable
2022-05-09T22:15:43 < kakium69> hmm
2022-05-09T22:16:06 < kakium69> it might not work on all the interior surface of the box
2022-05-09T22:16:17 < kakium69> because how electric fields and shit
2022-05-09T22:16:38 < kakium69> it should cover exterior nicelly
2022-05-09T22:38:55 < BrainDamage> where the self destruct timer display?
2022-05-09T22:50:05 < catphish> kakium69: i know nothing about powder coating
2022-05-09T22:50:20 < catphish> i assume it cover everything by magic
2022-05-09T22:50:47 < catphish> i also have to decide what colour to ask for!
2022-05-09T22:51:02 < kakium69> it's rather overkill solution for the box
2022-05-09T22:51:17 < kakium69> that is hidden
2022-05-09T22:51:40 < catphish> i just want something that covers whole box to prevent corrosion
2022-05-09T22:53:05 < BrainDamage> there's standard anti-rust coatings you can paint over
2022-05-09T22:54:03 < kakium69> just anti-rust paint from can
2022-05-09T22:54:39 -!- MrMobius_ is now known as MrMobius
2022-05-09T22:54:41 < catphish> hmm yeah maybe paint is simpler
2022-05-09T22:57:36 < kakium69> anti-rust primer and then paint
2022-05-09T23:00:59 < kakium69> it's farraday cage effect on interior of such box with powder coating
2022-05-09T23:21:44 < kakium69> especially sharp deep interior corners do not get powder
2022-05-09T23:41:06 < kakium69> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im52XJTx0v4
--- Day changed ti touko 10 2022
2022-05-10T01:00:50 < zyp> hmm, I need a name for protobuf rpc library
2022-05-10T01:01:26 < fenugrec> zyproto
2022-05-10T01:01:38 < zyp> I've been calling it protorpc so far, but that's already taken
2022-05-10T01:04:09 < zyp> epbrpc maybe -- embedded protobuf rpc
2022-05-10T01:07:47 < kakium69> testproto
2022-05-10T01:09:04 < specing> protomorf
2022-05-10T01:13:08 < kakium69> protonium
2022-05-10T01:17:45 < zyp> hmm, I like that
2022-05-10T01:19:23 < kakium69> \o/
2022-05-10T01:21:11 < zyp> it's short, sufficiently unique and not overly descriptive, good qualities for a project name
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2022-05-10T01:34:48 < Mangy_Dog> i really am having a linking problem and i cant get my head around it
2022-05-10T01:34:54 < Mangy_Dog> ive managed to get my errors down to 80 now
2022-05-10T01:34:55 < Mangy_Dog> but still
2022-05-10T01:35:01 < fenugrec> lol
2022-05-10T01:35:11 < Mangy_Dog> there is something really broken with eclipse
2022-05-10T01:35:22 < fenugrec> you are not eclipsing properly
2022-05-10T01:55:25 < kakium69> I noticed that I like to listen factory floor noise to fall asleep
2022-05-10T02:02:27 < kakium69> I used to listen quantum physics classes from MIT or something
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2022-05-10T10:01:54 < jpa-> official RP2040 tag connect pinout: https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/rp2040_tagconnect.png
2022-05-10T10:02:21 < jpa-> (it seems to reset the debug interface also when NRST is toggled, causing break to the debugger connection)
2022-05-10T10:10:15 < zyp> haha
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2022-05-10T17:03:23 < bitmask> what a weekend
2022-05-10T17:03:31 < bitmask> how goes it
2022-05-10T17:05:26 < Steffanx> Weekend??
2022-05-10T17:05:39 < Steffanx> I dont even remember those days anymore
2022-05-10T17:08:16 < bitmask> we went a few states away to go to my gf's cousin's bridal shower or whatever its called and my gf's uncle who lives with us had a stroke and passed away :(
2022-05-10T17:11:25 < bitmask> he doesnt usually go to things like that so its good he did this time, otherwise he woulda been home alone
2022-05-10T17:12:57 < emeb_mac> wow. 
2022-05-10T17:15:44 < bitmask> the last thing he said to me was asshole
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2022-05-10T19:12:38 < Steffanx> What will you miss most bitmask ? The guy or his shit?
2022-05-10T19:19:25 < zyp> him walking around naked?
2022-05-10T19:22:50 < bitmask> umm i dunno, no one really got along with him
2022-05-10T19:25:01 < bitmask> he called me an asshole because he doesnt clean up after himself. he always got nosebleeds a lot (he was on blood thinners because he had a stroke in the past) and there was blood all over the toilet seat and I said he should clean up after himself
2022-05-10T19:29:31 < Steffanx> Maybe you are an asshole.
2022-05-10T19:29:38 < bitmask> most definitely
2022-05-10T19:30:06 < bitmask> though i dont think it was because i asked him to clean up his own blood
2022-05-10T19:30:49 < Steffanx> Maybe it he was a little miserable all along. Strokes can fuck up someone's personality a lot. Sadly.
2022-05-10T19:32:36 < bitmask> yes i know, he was mean/rude before im told but things definitely did change over the past few years. I felt bad for him too but it didnt seem like he was trying to improve things
2022-05-10T19:33:28 < bitmask> it doesnt help that i see parts of me in that behavior as well
2022-05-10T19:34:45 < emeb_mac> "If you can't be a good example, at least you're a warning"
2022-05-10T19:34:57 < bitmask> truf
2022-05-10T19:37:12 < Steffanx> Lol emeb_mac 
2022-05-10T19:37:38 < Steffanx> So from now on you will not call people an asshole and clean up after yourself?
2022-05-10T19:37:44 < Steffanx> Mr bitmask  
2022-05-10T19:37:47 < bitmask> i always clean up after myself
2022-05-10T19:38:28 < bitmask> but i do want to become less angry/impatient
2022-05-10T19:38:42 < bitmask> i have bad road rage
2022-05-10T19:40:19 < bitmask> i just dont understand how someone can drive in the fast lane, going the same speed as the slow people in the right lane with no one in front of them and just holding back a line of cars
2022-05-10T19:40:27 < bitmask> :)
2022-05-10T19:42:11 < bitmask> and if they arent even aware that the left lane is the 'fast' lane then their parents blow
2022-05-10T19:42:36 < bitmask> and should be shot
2022-05-10T19:42:41 < bitmask> or at least neutered
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2022-05-10T22:01:11 < upgrdman> are these little dc/dc boost modules decent? i just need 5V in -> 12V out, with an output of at least 1A, ideally 2A. https://amzn.to/39FSWpK
2022-05-10T22:01:30 < upgrdman> qty 6 is $12, which seems reasonable
2022-05-10T22:24:48 < zyp> jpa-, hmm, I'm a bit unhappy about how include paths work wrt. the generated python code
2022-05-10T22:37:33 < zyp> e.g. if I've got an options.proto (like your nanopb.proto), anything generated using it wants to import options_pb2, which seems reasonable enough to distribute as part of my library
2022-05-10T22:39:39 < zyp> but since the python generator doesn't care about the package setting, if I want to have it import correctly, I need to use the correct direct directory prefix in the .proto using it
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2022-05-10T23:51:37 < sauce> upgrdman: think that's pushing it for those modules
2022-05-10T23:53:35 < upgrdman> sauce, looks like it should do ~1.5A. not 2A but close enough, no?
--- Day changed ke touko 11 2022
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2022-05-11T00:10:10 < kakium69> morgon
2022-05-11T00:19:18 < zyp> hrm, another annoyance: apparently it's valid to use a type in a .proto before it's defined, and protoc gives me the messages in the order they are defined
2022-05-11T00:19:40 < zyp> which means the C++ compiler will throw a fit when the generated code tries the same
2022-05-11T00:21:45 < zyp> this is a problem because my options.proto gets pulled in, and further pulls in google/protobuf/descriptor.proto, which defines FileDescriptorSet before FileDescriptorProto
2022-05-11T00:26:49 < zyp> I should add a file option that tells my generator that it shouldn't bother including the file
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2022-05-11T01:58:02 < zyp> heh, I'm seeing excessive traffic on bin.jvnv.net, apparently somebody are attempting to use it as a CDN for their music video streaming site or some shit
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2022-05-11T01:59:41 < zyp> and apparently it's also popular as a host for covid test certificates, I came across two uploaded this afternoon, from clinics in ethiopia and india respectively
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2022-05-11T02:00:42 < zyp> I wonder how people just come across some random file hosting site somewhere and decide that's a good place to upload documents full of personal information
2022-05-11T02:02:03 < zyp> and then somebody uploaded some wch sigrok capture, suspect that's karlp :p
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2022-05-11T02:08:56 < kakium69> a small offloading trick
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2022-05-11T03:12:56 < zyp> jpa-, worked out an API for storage classes: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/ZXCGU
2022-05-11T03:15:24 < zyp> bytes<dynamic> and bytes<ref> works, bytes<static_<32>> kinda works, except it needs a proper container with variable size
2022-05-11T03:17:54 < zyp> and I need to handle some inconsistensies in what iterators the different containers accepts
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2022-05-11T10:57:25 < qyx> any idea for an URL proxy to put into a QR code on a product?
2022-05-11T10:59:38 < qyx> zyp: I would upload my covid cert without any hesitation, I assume it is much safer in your basement than in any gov app we have
2022-05-11T11:00:10 < zyp> yeah, but you know me
2022-05-11T11:10:13 < srk> qyx: https://dopice.sk/
2022-05-11T11:11:07 < qyx> I guess slovak customers would be a bit offended
2022-05-11T11:11:16 < srk> :(
2022-05-11T11:17:51 < srk> heh, I remeber we had one. apache oneliner .. RedirectMatch ^/qr/([a-zA-Z0-9#]+) http://example.org/$1
2022-05-11T11:18:49 < qyx> I mean, the product will last eg. 10 years
2022-05-11T11:19:05 < qyx> during that time, the company web site, company name, datasheet location, etc. can change
2022-05-11T11:19:19 < qyx> so i want to put a 3rd party service url into the QR code
2022-05-11T11:19:31 < qyx> and if anything happens, just edit the redirect
2022-05-11T11:19:38 < srk> :D
2022-05-11T11:19:40 < jpa-> google.com/?q=QYX-2022-SUPER-PRODUCT
2022-05-11T11:19:41 < qyx> tinyurl allows that and is reasonably established
2022-05-11T11:19:58 < qyx> but they want $200 yearly to edit your URLs
2022-05-11T11:21:27 < srk> I'll host the oneliner for you for $100/y
2022-05-11T11:21:41 < srk> :D
2022-05-11T11:25:08 < qyx> works https://duckduckgo.com/?q=!ducky+github+foo+bar+foobar
2022-05-11T11:25:21 < qyx> the !ducky part is important
2022-05-11T11:25:31 < qyx> you just need to make sure your result is the first one
2022-05-11T11:27:16 < jpa-> https://www.doi.org/   could be one option also
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2022-05-11T11:36:42 < qyx> doi registration looks challenging
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2022-05-11T12:11:27 < josuah> qyx: why not use the product's own website?
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2022-05-11T12:26:28 < qyx> 10:19 < qyx> during that time, the company web site, company name, datasheet location, etc. can change
2022-05-11T12:28:04 < zyp> during that time, third party services can also change
2022-05-11T12:28:43 < qyx> fair, but my site changes every two years in average
2022-05-11T12:29:32 < zyp> I think bitly is the one I've used before
2022-05-11T12:30:31 < zyp> but looks like they also want to get paid for editing
2022-05-11T12:32:22 < zyp> I'd suggest just setting up your own on either a dedicated domain or subdomain
2022-05-11T12:32:45 < PaulFertser> qyx: I know a guy who used a 3rd party service to host a short URL to his personal website. Generated a QR code and had it tatooed. Guess what.
2022-05-11T12:33:40 < zyp> domains are cheap and as long as you own the domain you can always change what it points to later
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2022-05-11T13:09:14 < ventYl> damn O rings
2022-05-11T13:09:31 < karlp> zyp | and then somebody uploaded some wch sigrok capture, suspect that's karlp :p <<< correct.
2022-05-11T13:10:24 < karlp> qyx: just use your own company domain, and make the qr code a "litttle" bigger if you need to?
2022-05-11T13:11:05 < karlp> if your company can't handle maintaining things for 10 years, who's going to be updating a third party service either?
2022-05-11T13:14:45 < ventYl> qyx: use URL, which is unlikely to be used for any other purpose on your own domain. anything else is more error prone than that
2022-05-11T13:49:03 < jpa-> uploading datasheets to zenodo.org and linking by doi could be quite long-lasting
2022-05-11T13:55:07 < srk> or IPFS :D
2022-05-11T13:58:08 < srk> actually not a bad idea, you just need to do pinning somewhere so your files won't rot
2022-05-11T14:04:12 < karlp> call your datasheets reseach, I love it :)
2022-05-11T14:04:14 < srk> except you can't edit, hm
2022-05-11T14:04:53 < karlp> you can upload new versions though
2022-05-11T14:07:27 < srk> yeah but you can't store ipfs hashes in qrcode if you want editing
2022-05-11T14:13:56 < BrainDamage> you can use ipns
2022-05-11T14:14:19 < BrainDamage> which resolves a name to a ipfs hash
2022-05-11T14:14:38 < BrainDamage> so you separately pin the hashes and make the ipns
2022-05-11T14:19:28 < jpa-> karlp: well zenodo is for "research, educational and informational content"
2022-05-11T14:20:23 < srk> BrainDamage: oO interesting
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2022-05-11T14:44:57  * karlp buys all the stock on mouser of a part...
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2022-05-11T18:02:45 < karlp> ffs, hammer drilling into the wall all afternoon behind my head.
2022-05-11T18:07:29 < Steffanx> Lol
2022-05-11T18:08:00 < karlp> I don't even know what they're doing.
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2022-05-11T18:24:08  * ventYl sad. C++ reflection TS was finished and then new features were discovered
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2022-05-11T18:27:47 < karlp> TS
2022-05-11T18:27:52 < karlp> ?
2022-05-11T18:28:01 < ventYl> technical specification I guess
2022-05-11T18:28:20 < ventYl> basically requirements for C++ language concept support
2022-05-11T18:29:44 < karlp> new features were "discovered" ?
2022-05-11T18:30:58 < ventYl> yeah, for like three years, one group tried to put reflection feature together. until they finished specs and published them, new features were created and published for other parts of language, which made this reflection spec obsolete before it was even implemented
2022-05-11T18:35:24 < karlp> lol
2022-05-11T18:35:25 < ventYl> BTW is there any issue with CMake support PR for locm3?
2022-05-11T18:35:38 < karlp> hrm, I've been going a bit back and forth on it.
2022-05-11T18:35:42 < karlp> it's been suggested before.
2022-05-11T18:36:05 < karlp> because people also want meson and shit too, and then they want to file bugs on it.
2022-05-11T18:36:20 < karlp> I'm considering whether to just update the readme more and say "this shit is even _less_ supported"
2022-05-11T18:36:29 < karlp> and then slam in everybody's bullshit
2022-05-11T18:37:36 < ventYl> well, I could provide an example and pretty exhaustive set of test cases, then the readme could state that what examples demonstrate is supported, everything else is unsupported
2022-05-11T18:38:05 < ventYl> it could serve as a baseline for other implementations
2022-05-11T18:38:18 < karlp> no, it's either "any user's sbullshit" 
2022-05-11T18:38:19 < ventYl> implementation + docs + examples + testcases or gtfo
2022-05-11T18:38:34 < karlp> the entire point is that I _don't_ want more tests and things to be maintaining
2022-05-11T18:38:49 < karlp> unless I can point at it and say "lol, less than zero support, only the makefiles are canonical"
2022-05-11T18:39:20 < ventYl> understood
2022-05-11T18:39:50 < karlp> but I'm looking at anothr project that just did that, and tehy kinda just merge " any old" change to the cmake/meson/docker/blah,
2022-05-11T18:39:52  * karlp shrugs
2022-05-11T18:40:17 < karlp> bluez configure fails, "can't find ical"
2022-05-11T18:40:23 < karlp> readme makes no mention of this requirement.
2022-05-11T18:40:31 < karlp> configure --help makes no mention of it as a configurable thing.
2022-05-11T18:40:39 < BrainDamage> open another repository, with the cmake whatever, and tell if someone wants to maintain it
2022-05-11T18:42:56 < srk> karlp: + ci :D
2022-05-11T18:42:56 < BrainDamage> on arch bluez indeed depends directly on ical https://0x0.st/ompO.txt
2022-05-11T18:43:24 < karlp> srk: are you not fucking seeing that that's shit that I right now _don't need to do at all_ ?
2022-05-11T18:43:31 < karlp> "just add more CI"
2022-05-11T18:43:36 < karlp> now I have CI to look after!
2022-05-11T18:43:40 < karlp> GTFO
2022-05-11T18:43:50 < srk> :D true
2022-05-11T18:47:25 < ventYl> reasonably strict CI can make it easier
2022-05-11T18:49:35 < mawk> how do I get minicom to send CRNL when I hit enter
2022-05-11T18:49:36 < srk> if the person wants to maintain it (including CI) why not. but yeah, more code more trouble
2022-05-11T18:49:38 < mawk> this is so annoying
2022-05-11T18:49:48 < mawk> I have to do ^M^J to send CRNL manually
2022-05-11T18:49:48 < karlp> mawk use picocom instead
2022-05-11T18:49:59 < karlp> and use --omap lfcrlf or similar.
2022-05-11T18:50:03 < srk> buildsystems are so much trouble
2022-05-11T18:50:25 < ventYl> more like dependencies rather than buildsystems
2022-05-11T18:50:49 < ventYl> but yeah, system which fits myriads of use cases has to be complex and over the course of time will become bloat
2022-05-11T18:55:01 < srk> autotools :D
2022-05-11T18:55:54 < srk> aaand a CI for embedded is even more trouble if you want to test on real hardware as well
2022-05-11T18:56:25 < srk> if maintaining sw wasn't hard enought you need to maintain a hw with it :D
2022-05-11T18:56:35 < ventYl> that's probably not a concern here
2022-05-11T18:56:36 < mawk> ah thanks karlp 
2022-05-11T18:56:40 < mawk> works much better
2022-05-11T18:57:52 < karlp> picocom is so much more pleasant and lacking in surprises compared to minicom
2022-05-11T18:58:21 < srk> ventYl: yeah, I'm just talking shit. not a concern with your PR but it is for everything else that touches hw
2022-05-11T18:58:44 < ventYl> srk: been there, did CI for automotive shitworx firmware
2022-05-11T18:58:52 < karlp> the most desirable thing for CI would be figuring out how to run the CI on hardware.
2022-05-11T18:59:09 < karlp> I spent a while on it and failed, and that's for _usefuL_ shit not "other people's build systems"
2022-05-11T18:59:11 < srk> karlp: you have it partly running right?
2022-05-11T18:59:16 < srk> ^^
2022-05-11T18:59:24 < karlp> nah, I turned it off, there's CI for _building_ already 
2022-05-11T18:59:29 < ventYl> karlp: I have that prototyped, RN the only two issues I have are speed and flash wear
2022-05-11T18:59:34 < karlp> but the running on real hardware was far too flaky.
2022-05-11T18:59:39 < srk> flash wear is just an excuse
2022-05-11T18:59:43 < srk> to finish it :D
2022-05-11T18:59:44 < karlp> I don't give a shit abotu flash wear,
2022-05-11T18:59:57 < ventYl> but it basically works
2022-05-11T18:59:57 < karlp> if people can make enough PRs that I wear out flash, I'll buy replacement boards.
2022-05-11T19:00:12 < karlp> yeah, it all worked when I was testing too, just never did reliably when it got deployed.
2022-05-11T19:00:17 < karlp> very works on my machine .pro
2022-05-11T19:00:28 < srk> I have a reliable runner but I'm too lazy to push the infra to production-ready state
2022-05-11T19:00:31 < karlp> and so, looks like bluez just _doesn't_ support periodic advertising.
2022-05-11T19:00:40 < karlp> so, find new methods, or add hardware...
2022-05-11T19:11:49  * karlp ponders feeding 64khz to a 32khz clock input....
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2022-05-11T19:14:35 < ventYl> srk: btw, IME, if your software is reasonably *abstract*, then you can test huge portion of it in SW, per-partes and then testing on actual HW is just a matter of confirmation as let's say 90% of nasty bugs can be catched in SW testing stage
2022-05-11T19:14:50 < ventYl> maybe layered is better word than abstract
2022-05-11T19:16:57 < karlp> corroloary, testability implies code was written to be tested...
2022-05-11T19:17:29 < karlp> but I've witnessed a bunch of people break things, and then "fix the tests" by making the tests match teh new behaviour, and then wonder why they had regressions.
2022-05-11T19:18:10 < ventYl> well, if you have broken people, no precaution taken will be effective
2022-05-11T19:18:23 < karlp> true, but turns out broken people are surprisingly common
2022-05-11T19:18:40 < ventYl> true
2022-05-11T19:19:08 < ventYl> my broken coleague was the #1 cause for test failures
2022-05-11T19:19:24 < ventYl> or, whatever kind of failres, regressions and in-operation mishaps we had
2022-05-11T19:19:38 < ventYl> no matter the amount of precautions I made
2022-05-11T19:20:47 < ventYl> so I left the company and based on what I heard he simply ignored tests, because it was just an additional and useless burden, because code he was working on couldn't be broken
2022-05-11T19:21:07 < ventYl> until he reached the state, that the project couldn't be built for over one month
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2022-05-11T19:42:04 < srk> ventYl: true, you can test a lot of things w/o hw but the critical stuff like peripheral drivers is what I would love to test instead
2022-05-11T19:43:03 < srk> ventYl: even that's possible using qemu for eg f103 but quite limited and the emulator implementation most probably behaves differently / has other bugs :)
2022-05-11T19:45:53 < ventYl> well, driver testing, especially in case of locm3 is quite hard task as there is need to write tests basically for each and every peripheral on each and every MCU
2022-05-11T19:46:07 < ventYl> some could be merged, but definitely not for all test cases
2022-05-11T19:53:55 < srk> ventYl: there are not that many drivers https://github.com/libopencm3/libopencm3/tree/master/lib/stm32/common
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2022-05-11T19:54:47 < srk> hm, interesting problem.. what is the minimum set of devboards you need to cover all peripheral versions
2022-05-11T19:55:42 < fenugrec> karl probably has an exhaustive collection + a few spares
2022-05-11T19:56:24 < srk> no doubt about that :)
2022-05-11T19:57:59 < ventYl> srk: yeah, but many of those drivers have 2,3 or 4 sub-versions and all of them behave differently on different MCUs, because you have effects of stuff such as DMA, etc.
2022-05-11T19:58:39 < ventYl> if that doesn't change behavior, then it at least changes the way how you have to initialize the peripheral in order to work
2022-05-11T20:13:12 < srk> there are not that many variants in st world, like adc varies greatly but the rest there 1..3 versions
2022-05-11T20:13:38 < srk> *there are like
2022-05-11T20:14:12 < srk> portability of dmad drivers.. no idea tbh
2022-05-11T20:15:29 < ventYl> even there differences can exist
2022-05-11T20:15:50 < ventYl> like FDCAN peripheral in G4 is completely different than in F7 even if they are of same version
2022-05-11T20:16:04 < srk> wait what, FDCAN on F7?!
2022-05-11T20:16:14 < ventYl> or H7
2022-05-11T20:16:22 < srk> h7 yeah
2022-05-11T20:16:45 < ventYl> it's a mess, F7 and H7 have both the same SPI, but FDCAN is G4 and H7 exclusive
2022-05-11T20:16:49 < ventYl> and maybe some other shit
2022-05-11T20:16:56 < srk> :))
2022-05-11T20:17:00 < jpa-> and h7 HRTIM is fucked up by st
2022-05-11T20:17:17 < srk> you can tell by IP version in cubeMX data files
2022-05-11T20:17:22 < ventYl> like, nordic semiconductor fucked up?
2022-05-11T20:17:54 < srk> HRTIM is pretty obscure
2022-05-11T20:18:00 < srk> F3/G4/H7
2022-05-11T20:18:15 < srk> or maybe even F334 only
2022-05-11T20:18:20 < jpa-> F334 hrtim is lovely, H7 hrtim is useless if you stick to the specs
2022-05-11T20:18:23 < srk> so you can expect each one to be different :D
2022-05-11T20:18:31 < srk> fun
2022-05-11T20:19:07 < jpa-> h7 hrtim is nominally the same as f334, but they messed something up and decided to drop the high resolution part out of the specs
2022-05-11T20:19:23 < jpa-> so it is just an overly complex timer
2022-05-11T20:19:24 < srk> I briefly tried to indtroduce dual code h7 to my tooling but decided it isn't wort it (yet) :D
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2022-05-11T20:19:28 < srk> *core
2022-05-11T20:19:38 < srk> fun
2022-05-11T20:19:57 < ventYl> jpa-: that sounds pretty much like nordic
2022-05-11T20:20:20 < jpa-> i hope RP2040 stays available, it is quite ok design
2022-05-11T20:20:45 < jpa-> and the pico sdk isn't terrible either
2022-05-11T20:20:59 < emeb> yeah. I've done a bit of work with that. Not bad.
2022-05-11T20:21:12 < srk> I'm slowly leaning to FPGAs running risc-v core with custom peripherals
2022-05-11T20:21:12 < emeb> and the chips are cheap.
2022-05-11T20:21:17 < srk> this :(
2022-05-11T20:21:46 < emeb> FPGAs kinda hard to get ATM. I've got a small stash of Lattice parts, but it's running down.
2022-05-11T20:22:15 < srk> how's ADC on RP2k?
2022-05-11T20:22:24 < emeb> Slow, noisy.
2022-05-11T20:22:30 < ventYl> jpa-: some parts of the SDK are bit cumbersome IMHO
2022-05-11T20:22:34 < ventYl> like too verbose
2022-05-11T20:22:45 < jpa-> ventYl: i agree
2022-05-11T20:23:14 < srk> have you seen sts hal?
2022-05-11T20:23:22 < emeb> the multi-core stuff is fairly easy to use. didn't have any issues getting that going.
2022-05-11T20:23:40 < jpa-> i'
2022-05-11T20:23:46 < jpa-> m starting on pio programming now
2022-05-11T20:23:50 < ventYl> it was some peripheral which triggered "wait, do I really have to do all that?" question
2022-05-11T20:23:56 < ventYl> but I don't remember which one
2022-05-11T20:24:06 < emeb> PIO is cool. I fiddled with that a bit for I2S.
2022-05-11T20:24:10 < srk> emeb: is it part of sdk? freertos an option?
2022-05-11T20:24:18 < ventYl> I did initial support of RP2040 in locm3, but thit will probably never be integrated
2022-05-11T20:24:33 < ventYl> srk: it is
2022-05-11T20:24:38 < emeb> srk: no FreeRTOS AFAIK. If you want that you'll have to integrate it yourself.
2022-05-11T20:25:06 < emeb> the multi-core stuff is pretty bare-bones, but a lot of the typical RTOS infrastructure is handled w/ hardware.
2022-05-11T20:25:27 < emeb> ie mailboxes between cores, etc.
2022-05-11T20:25:33 < ventYl> it shouldn't be hard to run some kind of split-brain freertos on top of it
2022-05-11T20:25:35 < srk> cool
2022-05-11T20:25:53 < ventYl> but it will take substantial amount of work to make it run in SMP mode
2022-05-11T20:26:12 < srk> looks doable https://github.com/smittytone/RP2040-FreeRTOS
2022-05-11T20:27:19 < srk> can't you *"just"* run like FreeRTOS with riscv port? 
2022-05-11T20:27:52 < jpa-> what's riscv got to do with it?
2022-05-11T20:27:56 < ventYl> well, you can, but can freertos run in SMP mode?
2022-05-11T20:28:06 < ventYl> like multiple concurrent schedulers?
2022-05-11T20:28:08 < emeb> I posted some stuff about my RP2040 project elsewhere and some guy launched into a tirade about how awful it was and RPi Fndtn sucks etc because they based the SDK on Cmake + GCC.
2022-05-11T20:28:27 < srk> jpa-: oops, *arm
2022-05-11T20:28:36 < emeb> Apparently in his mind that's a huge mistake because GCC sux and Clang rulz
2022-05-11T20:28:47 < jpa-> ventYl: it can, and freertos smp doesn't look too difficult either, once you have cross-cpu synchronization mechanisms done
2022-05-11T20:29:08 < ventYl> jpa-: ok, then it should be easy
2022-05-11T20:29:15 < ventYl> emeb: wasn't that karlp? :)
2022-05-11T20:29:35 < emeb> ventYl: lol, definitely not karlp. 
2022-05-11T20:29:58 < jpa-> https://freertos.org/smp-demos-for-the-raspberry-pi-pico-board.html   looks like they even have official dem
2022-05-11T20:30:23 < ventYl> RP2040 is not an industry high performer, but overally, it is OK
2022-05-11T20:30:29 < emeb> nice
2022-05-11T20:30:49 < jpa-> ventYl: i think RP2040 may be close to top in performance per price
2022-05-11T20:30:49 < ventYl> at least it has potential to kill AVR for once
2022-05-11T20:31:07 < emeb> I did some audio DSP on it - split the UI and DSP across the cores. Worked OK.
2022-05-11T20:31:08 < ventYl> jpa-: that's probably just temporal
2022-05-11T20:31:25 < jpa-> ventYl: what isn't? :)
2022-05-11T20:31:39 < ventYl> I will port my AVR solar water heater stuff over from AVR to RP2040
2022-05-11T20:31:55 < jpa-> but i'm not expecting STM32s to get cheaper any time soon, considering you can't even buy them before 2027
2022-05-11T20:32:09 < emeb> this
2022-05-11T20:32:30 < ventYl> this assumes that RP2040 will retain it's price and availability until then and probably a bit longer
2022-05-11T20:32:31 < emeb> wondering if H7xx parts will *ever* be available thru distys again
2022-05-11T20:34:16 < ventYl> I expect it is just a matter of time until various organizations reconsider their decisions on "RPi is not good enough for us" and start using it, because nothing else is available
2022-05-11T20:35:09 < emeb> Yep. But then that'll drain the supply down too.
2022-05-11T20:35:34 < emeb> They're using the same fabs as everyone else.
2022-05-11T20:35:53 < jpa-> tiny chip and cheap process though, because no on-die flash
2022-05-11T20:36:32 < emeb> I like the way a lot of the newer MCUs from .cn work - slow external SPI flash loading into on-chip RAM that's protected at boot.
2022-05-11T20:36:46 < jpa-> STM32 advanced analog capabilities & on-die flash probably puts lot more specific requirements on manufacturing
2022-05-11T20:37:04 < ventYl> is on-die flash such a huge deal breaker?
2022-05-11T20:37:18 < emeb> It requires more complex fab processes.
2022-05-11T20:37:27 < ventYl> yeah, you need parasitic capacity
2022-05-11T20:38:36 < emeb> ESP32 parts with built-in QSPI flash are pretty cool too. Very inexpensive.
2022-05-11T20:38:59 < emeb> I've been using some C3 parts w/ 4MB flash that sell for < $2
2022-05-11T20:39:38 < emeb> Decent caching on the QSPI port too, so it doesn't kill execution speed.
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2022-05-11T22:15:12 < qyx> emeb: some H7 are back in stock on mouser
2022-05-11T22:20:48 < emeb> qyx: indeed - looks like they got 2k of the H725AE. 169 UFBGA (0.5mm pitch)
2022-05-11T22:20:57 < emeb> A little out of my league for assy.
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2022-05-11T23:08:31 < kakium69> what is rvalue and lvalue
2022-05-11T23:10:05 < kakium69> ah
2022-05-11T23:10:15 < kakium69> used google now I know
2022-05-11T23:10:31 < kakium69> lvalue = rvalue;
2022-05-11T23:11:58 < kakium69> lvalue must be such that data can be assigned to it's address
2022-05-11T23:18:55 < kakium69> "Although references, once initialized, always refer to valid objects or functions, it is possible to create a program where the lifetime of the referred-to object ends, but the reference remains accessible (dangling)."
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2022-05-12T00:34:42 < kakium69> catphish: how is box?
2022-05-12T00:35:51 < zyp> boxy
2022-05-12T00:36:32 < catphish> kakium69: finished today: https://i.imgur.com/szvNpst.jpg
2022-05-12T00:36:54 < catphish> kakium69: i've now disassembled it and taking it to be powder coated tomorrow
2022-05-12T00:37:41 < kakium69> you ask them to use special effect color on it?
2022-05-12T00:37:56 < catphish> i haven't decided yet
2022-05-12T00:40:07 < qyx> it looks super dangerous
2022-05-12T00:44:45 < catphish> qyx: i suppose it is :)
2022-05-12T00:45:14 < catphish> only 300V ;)
2022-05-12T00:46:23 < qyx> how many kWh?
2022-05-12T00:47:59 < kakium69> it has some danger potential
2022-05-12T00:48:15 < qyx> yeah 1 kWh should be about 1 kg of TNT
2022-05-12T00:48:40 < qyx> = 4.1 MJ
2022-05-12T00:48:43 < catphish> qyx: 24kWh
2022-05-12T01:37:19 < zyp> jpa-, repeated support also falls into place: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/hnvXW
2022-05-12T01:39:33 < zyp> only thing missing is encoding of non-packed elements, but it doesn't fit the api to handle that here, that'll have to be handled in the message encoder, iterating over the elements and encoding them separately
2022-05-12T01:46:03 < catphish> can someone tell me what this ARM magic does? https://github.com/raspberrypi/pico-sdk/blob/master/src/rp2_common/hardware_sync/include/hardware/sync.h#L198
2022-05-12T01:47:50 < catphish> i guess it saves a bitmap of enabled interrupts, then clears them?
2022-05-12T01:50:03 < zyp> it's not a bitmap, it's a priority level
2022-05-12T01:50:51 < catphish> ah okay
2022-05-12T01:51:21 < zyp> IIRC the way it works is that all interrupts with priority levels >= PRIMASK are disabled, so disabling all interrupts happens by setting PRIMASK=0
2022-05-12T01:51:31 < zyp> that's what cpsid i does
2022-05-12T01:51:51 < catphish> that makes sense, thanks
2022-05-12T01:51:55 < karlp> srk/fenugrec et al, what's more interesting that "having a pile of dev boards" is actually having something standard that they can all talk to...
2022-05-12T01:51:56 < zyp> and before you do that, you want to store the old PRIMASK value, so you can return to the previous level when reenabling
2022-05-12T01:51:59 < karlp> so you can actually set up tests.
2022-05-12T01:52:20 < zyp> karlp, how far did you get on that?
2022-05-12T01:52:59 < karlp> this is what I started with https://github.com/karlp/libopencm3-tests/blob/master/hw/regresso2/regresso2.jpg but it needs then a pile of sw writen for it too :)
2022-05-12T01:53:59 < zyp> yeah
2022-05-12T01:57:16 < karlp> zyp: eh, somewhat, I discovered a pinning error that made i2c suck,
2022-05-12T01:57:36 < karlp> and I couldn't get spi slave mode to work, 
2022-05-12T01:57:55 < karlp> and spi had been the first target,
2022-05-12T01:58:24 < zyp> awh
2022-05-12T01:58:42 < karlp> spi slave mode needed the cs pin actualyl being on nss, unlike spi master,
2022-05-12T01:59:05 < zyp> hmm, I guess a cheap FPGA could work great as a tester
2022-05-12T01:59:13 < karlp> or at least, you could _write_ a bunch of data, but I was trying to implement the "register" style spi periph
2022-05-12T01:59:24 < karlp> sure, but a cheap fpga is a) not cheap and b) "more complicated" 
2022-05-12T01:59:27 < karlp> but yeah....
2022-05-12T01:59:41 < karlp> using an stm32 for the test host also meant it was dogfodding nicely too.
2022-05-12T01:59:56 < karlp> but well, lgpl has been wearing me down for years on locm3...
2022-05-12T02:00:35 < zyp> I guess nothing available is cheap today, but ecp5 was certainly reasonably priced a year ago
2022-05-12T02:00:39 < karlp> I cut back to the "justhave all the usb boards connected and run the existing tests"
2022-05-12T02:00:52 < zyp> yeah
2022-05-12T02:01:01 < karlp> but that also proved a nightmare of "just run ci software, publicly, on.... my own hardware in my own network...."
2022-05-12T02:01:14 < karlp> and just drained me.
2022-05-12T02:01:22 < karlp> maybe when I retire next...
2022-05-12T02:01:25 < zyp> at some point I'd like to implement gadget-zero on laks too
2022-05-12T02:03:18 < karlp> heh, I've beentrying to avoid even the tmeptation of getting usb on wch goign onlaks :)
2022-05-12T02:04:38 < zyp> on the 8-bit-ish core, or an stm32-like core?
2022-05-12T02:05:08 < zyp> I brought up dwc_otg on gd32v without issue
2022-05-12T02:05:11 < karlp> well, the riscv ones, dont' they all have the same usb periph?
2022-05-12T02:05:17 < karlp> oh, gd32v is dwc though...
2022-05-12T02:05:20 < zyp> I haven't looked closely
2022-05-12T02:05:22 < zyp> yeah
2022-05-12T02:06:30 < zyp> I'm not sure I'd recommend adding support for any new cores just yet, the usb stuff is long overdue for an overhaul, and I want to make use of new features soon
2022-05-12T02:06:37 < zyp> i.e. async all the things
2022-05-12T02:06:43 < karlp> yeah, don't worry, I have enough other things
2022-05-12T02:07:01 < karlp> freertos, the othe vector modes, and the bluetooth library are earlier for me.
2022-05-12T02:07:10 < karlp> ch58x can do adc->dma->mem,
2022-05-12T02:07:15 < karlp> but ... no multi channel
2022-05-12T02:07:25 < karlp> so kinda trash IMO :)
2022-05-12T02:07:33 < zyp> but I mean, calling usb.process() as is in a loop in a coro-task works :)
2022-05-12T02:07:54 < zyp> did that on $workproject
2022-05-12T02:08:36 < karlp> yeah, usb evaporatoed from $work.
2022-05-12T02:08:51 < karlp> new part straight up doesn't have usb, so not even a stretch goal for added functionality now :)
2022-05-12T02:09:44 < zyp> my project didn't call for usb either, it's just a convenient interface for controlling the hardware during development
2022-05-12T02:09:51 < karlp> true.
2022-05-12T02:10:09 < karlp> I've currently got it dogfooding btle OTA updates and config.
2022-05-12T02:10:33 < karlp> it's... not as convenient. 
2022-05-12T02:10:38 < karlp> but functional at least.
2022-05-12T02:11:45 < zyp> I'm doing my first btle project at work now, but so far I'm just adding a few attributes on an existing device with a framework around everything, so I'm not really learning anything except how to drive the framework
2022-05-12T02:12:04 < karlp> may I ask what framework this is? or what part?
2022-05-12T02:12:29 < zyp> nrf52, inhouse stuff on top of the nordic sdk I believe
2022-05-12T02:13:03 < zyp> it's C with a lot of macro magic, so I'm not really a fan :)
2022-05-12T02:13:38 < zyp> but it's easy, I'll give it that
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2022-05-12T04:28:40 < mawk> our new product is esp32 shit
2022-05-12T04:28:44 < mawk> I couldn't do anything about it
2022-05-12T04:29:01 < mawk> the deprecated sdk you mean zyp?
2022-05-12T04:29:06 < mawk> now it's all zephyr and stuff
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2022-05-12T10:56:42 < zyp> mawk, idk, we have nrf9160 stuff using zephyr too
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2022-05-12T19:55:33 < kakium69> composite video in shielded "hdmi" twisted pair.. should I connect both wires of the pair to signal at both ends or maybe connect another wire to shield at both ends?
2022-05-12T19:57:12 < mlaga97> Ideally you'd use a line driver or balun to convert a coaxial signal to a twisted pair.
2022-05-12T19:57:48 < mlaga97> Realistically, just connect both wires of the pair to signal at both ends and use the shield ground.
2022-05-12T19:58:27 < mlaga97> Assuming that it's a fairly short distance and you aren't trying to do 8k over composite.
2022-05-12T19:59:13 < kakium69> I'm trying to get about 2pixels across the cable
2022-05-12T19:59:32 < kakium69> it's +1meter
2022-05-12T19:59:35 < kakium69> adapter cable
2022-05-12T20:00:31 < jpa-> at 1 meter, it probably doesn't matter much what you do
2022-05-12T20:00:36 < mlaga97> In that case you could probably send it over two pieces of saltwater soaked string
2022-05-12T20:00:42 < mlaga97> But I'd tie the wires in the pair together just to be safe.
2022-05-12T20:00:43 < kakium69> as long as it's shielded
2022-05-12T20:00:52 < kakium69> mlaga97: yes
2022-05-12T20:01:01 < kakium69> I think it will be fine
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2022-05-12T23:00:16 < upgrdman> anyone have a USB light that you like? like good CRI, bright, etc. the ikea gooseneck usb light is good IF you replace the LED, but it's too small to fit more LEDs, so it's not very bright
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--- Day changed pe touko 13 2022
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2022-05-13T00:04:08 < kakium69> catphish: status report
2022-05-13T00:11:24 < catphish> nothing has changed
2022-05-13T00:12:32 < catphish> this thread is mildly interesting - trying to make my BMS a bit more resilient to communication errors https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=39934#p39934
2022-05-13T00:13:03 < catphish> otherwise, i spent today assembling a bookcase and working on a CAN speedo for someone else
2022-05-13T00:14:28 < catphish> didnt get time to go to the powder coating place
2022-05-13T00:14:33 < catphish> will do so tomorrow
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2022-05-13T00:32:49 < kakium69> catphish: did you get more parts for BMS tests?
2022-05-13T00:33:34 < catphish> yes
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2022-05-13T00:33:47 < catphish> well, just the parts mentioned in the post
2022-05-13T00:39:25 < catphish> i swapped the isolation caps 1nF to 10nF, the pull resistors, 1k to 10k, and the common mode choke 22uH to 100uH
2022-05-13T00:39:47 < catphish> it definitely improved things, but not perfect yet
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2022-05-13T01:24:32 < zyp> jpa-, are protobuf decoders supposed to handle both packed and unpacked repeated fields transparently?
2022-05-13T01:26:50 < zyp> at least the python decoder appears to do
2022-05-13T01:36:15 < zyp> ah, yup
2022-05-13T01:36:22 < zyp> «Protocol buffer parsers must be able to parse repeated fields that were compiled as packed as if they were not packed, and vice versa. This permits adding [packed=true] to existing fields in a forward- and backward-compatible way.»
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2022-05-13T03:33:12 < catphish> in case i'm unaware of something extremely fast and simple: if i have a 24 bit int, and i want to convert it to an 8 bit int by taking the average of every 3 bits, can i do this fast? Cortex-M0+ if that matters
2022-05-13T03:37:56 < zyp> is the format given?
2022-05-13T03:38:15 < zyp> by average, do you mean sum?
2022-05-13T03:39:54 < catphish> i have 24 bits stored in a u32, for each group of 3 bits, i want to work out the average (mode) value, and place it into a u8
2022-05-13T03:40:50 < zyp> well, average is sum divided by 8, so same same
2022-05-13T03:41:11 < zyp> anyway, is the format given?
2022-05-13T03:41:22 < zyp> or are you free to change it?
2022-05-13T03:41:42 < catphish> for example 111 000 111 000 110 100 000 111 becomes 10101001
2022-05-13T03:42:20 < catphish> perhaps if i explain *why* i have this problem, it will be clearer
2022-05-13T03:42:23 < zyp> oh, right, I was misreading you
2022-05-13T03:42:39 < zyp> I thought you wanted the average across the groups
2022-05-13T03:42:55 < catphish> i made a uart, it reads 8 bits, but it takes 3 sampes per bit, and puts each sample in a shift register
2022-05-13T03:43:20 < catphish> i essentially want to low-pass-filter the result
2022-05-13T03:44:00 < zyp> fair enough
2022-05-13T03:46:43 < catphish> i have about 20 cycles per received bit to do so, i could probably write some asm to do it fast enough
2022-05-13T03:46:52 < zyp> can you store the samples in three separate uint8_t's instead?
2022-05-13T03:46:52 < lemmi> you could vectorize the addition of the bits, then see if the result in a group has the second bit set
2022-05-13T03:47:27 < catphish> zyp: no
2022-05-13T03:47:36 < catphish> (unless i move them there)
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2022-05-13T03:47:48 < zyp> why not? how are you doing the sampling?
2022-05-13T03:48:19 < catphish> RP2040 PIO
2022-05-13T03:48:45 < zyp> sure, but can't you just sample to three registers in a round robin fashion instead of just one?
2022-05-13T03:49:08 < catphish> it doesn't have 3 shift registers
2022-05-13T03:49:16 < zyp> okay
2022-05-13T03:49:36 < catphish> that was indeed my first thought
2022-05-13T03:50:14 < catphish> lemmi: i'm trying to look into vector instructions now, i don't know if i have any available
2022-05-13T03:50:20 < zyp> you don't
2022-05-13T03:50:25 < lemmi> no need for vector instrucions
2022-05-13T03:50:38 < zyp> anyway, there's some bitwise tricks, let me type it up
2022-05-13T03:50:45 < catphish> thanks!
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2022-05-13T03:59:18 < catphish> i *might* be able to do this with some insane conditional jump instructions in PIO...
2022-05-13T03:59:20 < zyp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/6XqkH <- here you can get the modes in four operations
2022-05-13T03:59:53 < zyp> but you still need to transpose the bits to get an uint8_t out
2022-05-13T04:00:15 < catphish> zyp: that's beautiful, depending how expensive the final transpose is
2022-05-13T04:01:57 < zyp> hmm, I've got an idea for that as well
2022-05-13T04:08:34 < zyp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/kDZpc final transpose is another four operations or so and a lut lookup
2022-05-13T04:08:48 < zyp> 256 byte lut is fairly cheap
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2022-05-13T04:09:34 < zyp> lut is just a straight remapping of 52741630 to 76543210
2022-05-13T04:11:55 < catphish> wow.
2022-05-13T04:12:15 < catphish> i'm a little lost at 0x249249, will write it out myself in a moment
2022-05-13T04:12:41 < zyp> it's just 0b1001001001001001001001
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2022-05-13T04:13:04 < lemmi> almost better to write that in octal
2022-05-13T04:13:13 < zyp> good point, I forgot octal exists
2022-05-13T04:14:45 < lemmi> hm, your way is 2 instructions shorter and doesn't need a load for a constant
2022-05-13T04:15:06 < zyp> shorter than what?
2022-05-13T04:15:31 < lemmi> my idea
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2022-05-13T04:15:52 < lemmi> https://godbolt.org/z/en1h88Ee5
2022-05-13T04:16:16 < lemmi> (also needs the final deinterleave)
2022-05-13T04:16:33 < catphish> this is the alternative i was just considering... https://paste.debian.net/1240746/
2022-05-13T04:16:47 < catphish> it's... less beautiful
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2022-05-13T04:17:13 < zyp> no, it seems more reasonable to handle it in the frontend if you can
2022-05-13T04:17:54 < catphish> obviously the PIO is just designed to push the datums around
2022-05-13T04:18:47 < catphish> lemmi: that compiler is so useful!
2022-05-13T04:18:49 < catphish> thanks
2022-05-13T04:19:08 < lemmi> yeah, it's a pretty amazing tool
2022-05-13T04:20:58 < zyp> ah, m0+ doesn't have inline shifter
2022-05-13T04:21:08 < zyp> hence the separate lsrs instructions
2022-05-13T04:21:24 < zyp> switch to -mcpu=cortex-m3 and you'll see why m3 is faster :)
2022-05-13T04:22:44 < catphish> this is what the backend looks like by the way, pretty dumb https://paste.debian.net/1240747/
2022-05-13T04:25:38 < zyp> how does timing work?
2022-05-13T04:27:57 < catphish> the first instruction waits for the first transition, all instructions are one cycle, so it just samples at appropriate moments in the byte it expects to follow that initial transition
2022-05-13T04:28:15 < catphish> numbers in square brackets are nops
2022-05-13T04:28:27 < catphish> so [6] adds 6 nops there
2022-05-13T04:28:53 < catphish> each bit is 10 cpu cycles, so the loop is exactly 10 instructions long
2022-05-13T04:29:08 < catphish> 3 reads, a jmp, and 6 nops
2022-05-13T04:29:15 < zyp> ah
2022-05-13T04:30:21 < catphish> one thing i did notice tonight is that my code was previously one instruction offset from the "eye" of the data, so fixing that alignment will help a little, but i'd prefer to oversample
2022-05-13T04:30:45 < catphish> the other problem is that sometimes noise will cause the initial falling edge
2022-05-13T04:30:58 < catphish> i haven't got a good solution there yet
2022-05-13T04:31:39 < zyp> usually you'd resync at every edge
2022-05-13T04:31:53 < zyp> gives you a way to detect errors too
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2022-05-13T04:56:17 < catphish> well it compiles :)
2022-05-13T04:57:22  * rustytaco sprinkles catnips for the catphish 
2022-05-13T04:58:12 < rustytaco> my stm32f401ccu now almost successfully transmits ft8 several feet. Some work on timing will make success
2022-05-13T05:00:24 < catphish> that's further than i've transmitted anything, soo much distractions
2022-05-13T05:01:08 < rustytaco> ive got a pile of 2n2222 and irf530n's at home
2022-05-13T05:01:28 < rustytaco> but im 500 mi from there and this code is still buggier than a las angeles hooker.
2022-05-13T05:03:25 < lemmi> https://godbolt.org/z/j8PYzzees couldn't help myself trying the deinterleave thing without LUT
2022-05-13T05:08:17 < catphish> :)
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2022-05-13T05:11:20 < catphish> this is nice and short https://godbolt.org/z/4h1e8797o
2022-05-13T05:11:24 < catphish> i hope it actually works :)
2022-05-13T05:12:46 < lemmi> it trades one instruction for a LUT :)
2022-05-13T05:13:15 < catphish> is that all?
2022-05-13T05:13:46 < catphish> oh i see now, you put both in
2022-05-13T05:14:18 < lemmi> yeah
2022-05-13T05:14:24 < zyp> 20 instructions without LUT, 19 with, but memory latency probably costs you the difference :)
2022-05-13T05:14:56 < catphish> yeah, i'll definitely take the non-lutted version
2022-05-13T05:15:02 < catphish> as soon as i work out how it works
2022-05-13T05:15:20 < zyp> also, you're forgetting that vsum() gives you the interesting bits in 1..4..7 rather than 0..3..6 like vands()
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2022-05-13T05:16:26 < lemmi> zyp: oh, forgot the shift, yes
2022-05-13T05:18:02 < lemmi> actually both versions take 2 loads. my deinterleave needs it for the additional constant compared to the lookup
2022-05-13T05:18:09 < catphish> oh i see, adding them gives 0b1n if it's a one or 0b0n otherwise
2022-05-13T05:18:27 < zyp> yes
2022-05-13T05:18:46 < lemmi> catphish: yep, that was my initial idea. it's basically checking if the result of adding 3 bits is >=2
2022-05-13T05:19:03 < zyp> it's a clever trick, but the masking makes it more expensive than bitwise logic
2022-05-13T05:19:09 < lemmi> yep
2022-05-13T05:19:31 < catphish> why it it loading the constants instead of putting them in the code?
2022-05-13T05:19:54 < zyp> presumably because it's faster :)
2022-05-13T05:20:13 < lemmi> thumb can't have immediats that large, i think
2022-05-13T05:20:20 < zyp> correct
2022-05-13T05:20:42 < zyp> m0plus is mostly just thumb1, i.e. 16-bit opcodes, and you can't fit very large immediates in that
2022-05-13T05:20:54 < catphish> i guess the additional instructions to set up immediates in multiple parts would be worse than the load
2022-05-13T05:21:04 < zyp> so either you need to compose across several instructions, or just load from a constant pool
2022-05-13T05:21:04 < lemmi> so, you need to get them somewhere. either you construct it from smaller constants with multiple instructions, or you just load it 
2022-05-13T05:21:52 < catphish> vsum is pretier i guess
2022-05-13T05:22:19 < lemmi> vsum needs another shift to the right, to be compatible with die other thing
2022-05-13T05:22:34 < catphish> also true
2022-05-13T05:23:05 < lemmi> i think it's easier to reason about, but it's 2 instructions longer
2022-05-13T05:27:13 < catphish> the deinterleave3 is for vands, right?
2022-05-13T05:27:44 < zyp> it works for both if you just do return sums >> 1; in vsum()
2022-05-13T05:28:13 < catphish> *nod*
2022-05-13T05:31:57 < catphish> am i missing anything here? https://godbolt.org/z/zW4z7onsc
2022-05-13T05:32:07 < catphish> i'm tired now, but this looks perfect
2022-05-13T05:33:17 < catphish> in any case, thank you very much both"
2022-05-13T05:33:19 < catphish> *!
2022-05-13T05:34:51 < lemmi> if you return uint32_t, you need a final mask to 0xff
2022-05-13T05:37:48 < zyp> the final mask can be omitted if it's feeding into str.b or something
2022-05-13T05:38:14 < zyp> that'll give you a free truncation
2022-05-13T05:40:09 < lemmi> fwiw: just tried a LUT for 2 3-bit groups. lot less code, but more instructions :)
2022-05-13T05:53:26 < lemmi> catphish: omg.. i just reread that you had 20 cycles *per* bit. i don't have the cyclecount for loads in my head, but i think doing 24bits in 20 instructions seems fine :)
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2022-05-13T08:47:11 < jpa-> catphish: i never quite understood "average of 3" sampling - only case where the result differs from "sample at middle" is 101 or 010, in which it is very questionable whether the averaged result is more correct
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2022-05-13T10:43:25 < zyp> indeed
2022-05-13T10:51:04 < catphish> jpa-: you make a very good point
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2022-05-13T14:34:07 < zyp> jpa-, the nanopb pypi package, does that only include the generator, or also the C parts?
2022-05-13T14:35:28 < zyp> I went and bundled up the whole include dir and added a --cflags to my cli tool: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/1T5kJ
2022-05-13T14:36:52 < zyp> planning to also add a flag to copy the headers to an user specified location
2022-05-13T14:37:29 < mawk> now it's macropb
2022-05-13T14:38:14 < zyp> :)
2022-05-13T14:38:41 < zyp> maybe I'll add nanopb support later
2022-05-13T14:39:57 < zyp> i.e. let nanopb generate all the message types, and then just generate rpc stuff that plugs into that
2022-05-13T14:40:09 < zyp> that's what I do for the python rpc client
2022-05-13T14:42:16 < zyp> except I'm not sure how an API for that would look, probably structs that the end user will need to fill up with function pointers
2022-05-13T14:42:54 < mawk> a thousand function calls for each fp
2022-05-13T14:42:58 < zyp> i.e. C-style polymorphic inheritance :p
2022-05-13T14:43:20 < mawk> or using symbols that would be cool
2022-05-13T14:43:24 < mawk> but not work on embedded 
2022-05-13T14:43:46 < mawk> like call dlopen(NULL) to get the local context and then you can retrieve address of every function by name
2022-05-13T14:43:52 < zyp> hmm
2022-05-13T14:44:20 < zyp> I guess it could just emit function declarations and call them, and leave it up to the user to actually define them
2022-05-13T14:44:48 < mawk> ah yeah
2022-05-13T14:45:03 < mawk> as weak symbols with a default impl that abort()
2022-05-13T14:45:30 < zyp> doesn't have to abort, could return an error
2022-05-13T14:45:58 < zyp> I'm planning to add a status code to the response, including UNKNOWN_SERVICE and UNKNOWN_METHOD
2022-05-13T14:46:15 < zyp> a default implementation could just return the latter
2022-05-13T14:47:09 < jpa-> zyp: pypi package includes just generator
2022-05-13T14:47:39 < zyp> suspected as much
2022-05-13T14:48:44 < zyp> I figure it's a good idea to bundle everything together so that the user doesn't have to get the generator in one manner and the support files in another
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2022-05-13T14:53:51 < jpa-> zyp: yeah, but then users fail at installing python and python-protobuf
2022-05-13T14:54:08 < jpa-> not that they completely avoid that problem with pip either
2022-05-13T14:54:36 < jpa-> i do bundle the generator in the main package
2022-05-13T14:55:06 < zyp> yeah, it's absolutely a good idea to put stuff on pypi
2022-05-13T14:55:30 < zyp> I'm just arguing it makes sense to include the support files as well
2022-05-13T14:55:33 < mawk> the btc crash cost me 100€
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2022-05-13T14:55:45 < mawk> the seller from whom I was buying something smelled the crash and refunded me
2022-05-13T14:56:05 < zyp> and either have it give the user an include path, or produce a local copy for the project, next to the generated files
2022-05-13T14:56:06 < mawk> now I'm left with as many mBTC as before, but worth less
2022-05-13T14:56:08 < mawk> huge success 
2022-05-13T14:57:47 < jpa-> zyp: feels weird to me, but maybe
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2022-05-13T14:59:31 < zyp> jpa-, think of it like this: the generator already includes C templates, so you're getting C from pypi either way, but only half of what you need
2022-05-13T14:59:46 < zyp> why not get the other half as well in the same manner, to be consistent?
2022-05-13T15:00:47 < zyp> that also ensures that when you update the installed python package, the generated code and the support code stays in sync
2022-05-13T15:03:47 < jpa-> i don't trust or even require users to regenerate files on version updates
2022-05-13T15:04:05 < jpa-> instead i have tests in place for generated file compatibility and #if version check
2022-05-13T15:05:50 < jpa-> honestly i would prefer people just to get stuff from github or from the published packages, but it seems everyone wants to add their own build system and package distribution system and whatever
2022-05-13T15:06:30 < jpa-> and then i'm stuck trying to figure out bug reports about pypi or platformio or swiftpm or vcpkg etc.
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2022-05-13T15:08:00 < zyp> yeah, I'd probably prefer linking the whole thing as a submodule and not installing it at all
2022-05-13T15:09:05 < zyp> but I'm also generating the host side client
2022-05-13T15:09:23 < zyp> and being able to do that without touching the firmware repo is a benefit
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2022-05-13T15:31:04 < jadew> man... I don't know why people praise linux this much
2022-05-13T15:31:36 < jadew> I haven't restarted my box for maybe a week and it already behaves like windows 95 after being installed for 5 years
2022-05-13T15:31:56 < jadew> I have to wait for things to happen after I click on something
2022-05-13T15:33:08 < jadew> CPU utilization ~10-12% and 20% memory usage
2022-05-13T15:33:41 < jpa-> trying to fool us to solve your problems? :)
2022-05-13T15:33:48 < jadew> haha
2022-05-13T15:33:57 < rustytaco> sounds like you're using something cluttered like ubuntu
2022-05-13T15:34:07 < jadew> no, just complaining, because I don't understand how some people have an amazing linux experience and for me it's always shit
2022-05-13T15:34:38 < rustytaco> I recently dropped my laptop, dislodging the dust clogging the fan.. I'd been using it 6+ months without a CPU fan and just thought it was fanless (it gets 6.5+ hours battery life)... Its now many times faster :P
2022-05-13T15:34:40 < jadew> rustytaco, actually, I am using ubuntu, but only because it felt like the least buggy one of the few that I've tried
2022-05-13T15:34:54 < rustytaco> (i opened and cleaned it after hearing the fan that i didnt know existed ;)
2022-05-13T15:35:25 < rustytaco> apparently it was sold used because the fan clogged up and it "got slow" compared to normal. Lol
2022-05-13T15:35:57 < jadew> should I whack my PC on the side?
2022-05-13T15:36:00 < benishor> I have a wonderful experience because I use it daily
2022-05-13T15:36:13 < benishor> you should just stick to windows
2022-05-13T15:36:13 < jadew> benishor, I also use it daily
2022-05-13T15:36:17 < rustytaco> jadew: Probably just need to disable some stuff that starts up automatically
2022-05-13T15:36:22 < benishor> it shoudl be better for your usage
2022-05-13T15:36:31 < rustytaco> tho systemd will make that..difficult
2022-05-13T15:36:33 < jadew> rustytaco, thing is... nothing seems to eat up CPU
2022-05-13T15:36:46 < benishor> tried to restart gnome? with r
2022-05-13T15:36:50 < jadew> benishor, what kind of usage do you think I do?
2022-05-13T15:37:01 < benishor> jadew: the wrong kind
2022-05-13T15:37:26 < srk> haha, I was bragging about a fan trick earlier .. while true; do echo 'disable' > /proc/acpi/ibm/fan; sleep 1; done
2022-05-13T15:37:28 < rustytaco> im just saying my daily driver is pretty modest hardware and i watch netflix and develop on it.. tho i stay far clear of java crap like eclipse
2022-05-13T15:37:30 < jadew> didn't restart gnome, but I might, I want to commit my changes first
2022-05-13T15:37:53 < rustytaco> srk: Yea i had no idea this even had a fan for months :P it just ran at reduced speed with no crying
2022-05-13T15:38:04 < benishor> jadew: you don't need to commit changes
2022-05-13T15:38:16 < benishor> restarting gnome doesn't fuck up your things
2022-05-13T15:38:20 < rustytaco> ryzen 3 with a massive heatsink (the lower half of the laptop)
2022-05-13T15:38:27 < jadew> benishor, I know, but I don't trust linux to work as expected
2022-05-13T15:38:27 < srk> fan in mine is broken because it was running near a CNC a lot
2022-05-13T15:38:42 < benishor> jadew: why don't you switch back to windows then?
2022-05-13T15:38:43 < srk> so when it starts it makes crazy noises
2022-05-13T15:38:57 < jadew> before I know it, I have to hard reset my PC and my SSD is fucked
2022-05-13T15:39:02 < srk> but why even fan when CPU can throttle
2022-05-13T15:39:05 < benishor> it's not like somebody forces you to use linux, no?
2022-05-13T15:39:06 < jadew> benishor, because I'm writing linux software
2022-05-13T15:39:16 < benishor> you can do that in a vm just fine
2022-05-13T15:39:24 < jadew> "just fine"
2022-05-13T15:39:52 < jadew> it barely works right when I'm using an actual machine, it's worse in a VM + I need access to the hardware
2022-05-13T15:39:55 < benishor> well yes, linux in a vm works better than a win in vm
2022-05-13T15:39:59 < srk> funny how cooling seems to be borken on a lot of consumer hw
2022-05-13T15:40:08 < srk> instead of running at low rpm it will just spike at times
2022-05-13T15:40:28 < benishor> jadew: what kind of software are you trying to port to linux?
2022-05-13T15:40:31 < jadew> srk, well it probably spikes because the temperature gets high :)
2022-05-13T15:40:44 < jadew> benishor, I'm not porting it, I'm writing it from scratch
2022-05-13T15:40:50 < jadew> it's part of a bigger system - can't talk about it
2022-05-13T15:40:53 < benishor> jadew: cool, wht exactly?
2022-05-13T15:41:06 < benishor> ah, what a pitty
2022-05-13T15:41:22 < benishor> s/tt/t
2022-05-13T15:41:37 < rustytaco> does it involve "injection molded silicone" and motors with offset weights? :P
2022-05-13T15:41:50 < jadew> it doesn't
2022-05-13T15:42:55 < benishor> I recently came back to my write-a-64k-demo-before-I-die todo list and after wandering around with midi spec and shit, I ran into lmms
2022-05-13T15:43:02 < jadew> also, benishor, I would love to use windows... the thing just works
2022-05-13T15:43:03 < srk> can't you run a lightweight DM on buntu?
2022-05-13T15:43:09 < benishor> beautiful alternative to fl studio
2022-05-13T15:43:16 < srk> benishor: it is awesome!
2022-05-13T15:43:16 < jadew> when I go to my son's PC, I'm amazed at how much better it is
2022-05-13T15:43:19 < benishor> jadew: godspeed
2022-05-13T15:43:39 < rustytaco> devuan is teh answer.
2022-05-13T15:43:41 < jadew> using linux for a couple of weeks makes you appreciate polished software
2022-05-13T15:43:50 < benishor> the "how much better" is very relative
2022-05-13T15:43:50 < srk> like windows? :D:D
2022-05-13T15:44:04 < rustytaco> polished software? I didnt see much of that during my hellish nightmare using windows daily at work.
2022-05-13T15:44:07 < srk> so polished that you need to spend non trivial amount of time to unfuck it
2022-05-13T15:44:13 < jadew> oh, and another thing... I'm having doubts regarding linux's claim that it's safer than windows
2022-05-13T15:44:16 < srk> similar with buntu tho :)
2022-05-13T15:44:34 < rustytaco> jadew: ubuntu? Probably not. It's kinda made for...non computer people
2022-05-13T15:44:38 < jadew> given how shit everything is, I can't imagine how it could be significantly better in the safety department
2022-05-13T15:44:55 < jadew> rustytaco, so the problem is ubuntu then?
2022-05-13T15:45:04 < jadew> which part exactly do you think?
2022-05-13T15:45:07 < rustytaco> Some of them, very likely yes
2022-05-13T15:45:18 < srk> jadew: automated background updates :D
2022-05-13T15:45:21 < benishor> ubuntu is pretty much the most polished distro
2022-05-13T15:45:29 < jadew> srk, for snap apps?
2022-05-13T15:45:36 < srk> for whole distro
2022-05-13T15:45:38 < jadew> that's actually a nice feature, I love it
2022-05-13T15:45:42 < jadew> those are not automatic
2022-05-13T15:45:44 < jadew> you get asked
2022-05-13T15:45:54 < srk> after it does its thing on background for hours
2022-05-13T15:45:56 < rustytaco> Theres a lot that goes on to make things Just Work for braindead users, things that get make things less pleasant for experienced/power users
2022-05-13T15:46:08 < srk> jadew: I have buntu in virtual machine and got annoyed by it recently
2022-05-13T15:46:15 < srk> jadew: because it prevents apt-get install :)
2022-05-13T15:46:16 < jadew> srk, the only thing it does is update the repos and see if there are updates available
2022-05-13T15:46:28 < jadew> srk, it does not... what do you mean?
2022-05-13T15:46:45 < srk> I don't know why it's crunching something for half an hour
2022-05-13T15:46:46 < jadew> rustytaco, like what?
2022-05-13T15:46:53 < rustytaco> stuff like systemd starting up stuff you disabled, because something else has an (optional) dependancy on it in the systemd unit file -- perhaps via the socket nonsense -- so now you have everything installed on the machine starting up randomly when you run something
2022-05-13T15:46:57 < benishor> srk: the update or upgrade?
2022-05-13T15:47:01 < srk> and I don't care, I only boot it to quickly test things
2022-05-13T15:47:04 < rustytaco> mysql being a great example
2022-05-13T15:47:05 < jadew> srk, maybe network issues?
2022-05-13T15:47:10 < jadew> try disabling ipv6
2022-05-13T15:47:12 < srk> neither :)
2022-05-13T15:47:26 < benishor> then what fucks up your experience?
2022-05-13T15:47:28 < srk> maybe it's upgrade, it's 18.04 anyway
2022-05-13T15:47:35 < benishor> I'm very happy with ubuntu experience
2022-05-13T15:47:39 < rustytaco> you can disable the .service file and somehow systemd decides you need mysqld again because something optionally needs it (supports using mysql for example)
2022-05-13T15:47:47 < benishor> recently upgraded to 22.04 and everything ran out of the box
2022-05-13T15:47:47 < rustytaco> Not me, im happily a devuan user
2022-05-13T15:48:05 < srk> rustytaco: gets socket activated? sometimes you need to mask .socket as well
2022-05-13T15:48:31 < benishor> not only that but I found it terribly satisfying to write a wrapper for my demoscene synth as a lmms native plugin
2022-05-13T15:48:51 < benishor> lmms works amazingly nice out of the box on all platforms I tried it on
2022-05-13T15:48:57 < rustytaco> srk: Or just throw systemd in the garbage where it belongs *shrugs*
2022-05-13T15:49:26 < srk> benishor: ardour is also pretty neat, even as a midi tracker
2022-05-13T15:49:43 < benishor> srk: still doesn't compare to lmms
2022-05-13T15:49:46 < srk> rustytaco: ditto devuan :)
2022-05-13T15:49:48 < benishor> they are in different leagues
2022-05-13T15:49:55 < benishor> serving different purposes
2022-05-13T15:50:04 < srk> well they have different usecases I guess :D
2022-05-13T15:50:09 < benishor> I use ardour for guitar interfacing
2022-05-13T15:50:55 < benishor> but from a ux point of view, lmms is the best piece of sw I've seem on *nix
2022-05-13T15:50:58 < benishor> seen
2022-05-13T15:52:03 < jadew> so what distro do you guys recommend for the desktop?
2022-05-13T15:52:25 < benishor> ubuntu.
2022-05-13T15:52:36 < rustytaco> devuan for everything
2022-05-13T15:53:33 < jadew> which is debian -systemd?
2022-05-13T15:53:35 < rustytaco> But i guess it really depends on the user. If you're lazy and want it just do all sorts of things for you behind your back? probably ubuntu. i prefer long battery life and not fighting with "Why the **** isn't doing what i configured it to do"
2022-05-13T15:53:52 < rustytaco> jadew: Yes, devuan is debian without systemd disease
2022-05-13T15:54:07 < benishor> stop fighting the system
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2022-05-13T15:54:17 < benishor> it's not like you give a fuck about systemd
2022-05-13T15:54:30 < benishor> your shitty sw can live with or without systemd
2022-05-13T15:54:34 < jadew> rustytaco, I have good power usage with ubuntu
2022-05-13T15:55:05 < jadew> similar to windows
2022-05-13T15:55:16 < rustytaco> Also, stupid crap like enp58s491f834 for interface names is disabled out the box
2022-05-13T15:55:21 < jadew> except sleep isn't working, so it has to stay awake all night
2022-05-13T15:56:17 < benishor> jadew: using an xps?
2022-05-13T15:56:31 < jadew> xps?
2022-05-13T15:56:37 < benishor> xps laptop
2022-05-13T15:56:43 < jadew> no
2022-05-13T15:56:46 < benishor> dell
2022-05-13T15:56:57 < benishor> those are notorious for having bad sleep support
2022-05-13T15:57:03 < jadew> it's a desktop machine
2022-05-13T15:57:12 < benishor> sleep works just fine here on a desktop machine
2022-05-13T15:57:32 < jadew> it doesn't come out of it for me
2022-05-13T15:57:49 < rustytaco> system went to forever sleep?
2022-05-13T15:57:51 < benishor> what distro are you using
2022-05-13T15:58:00 < jadew> ubuntu 22.04
2022-05-13T15:59:00 < benishor> works just fine here. did you fresh install it or upgraded?
2022-05-13T15:59:17 < jadew> fresh
2022-05-13T16:00:17 < benishor> sad panda then
2022-05-13T16:00:29 < benishor> perhaps your hardware is obsolete
2022-05-13T16:01:22 < jadew> it's not
2022-05-13T16:01:35 < jadew> i7-9700 + nvidia 750 ti
2022-05-13T16:04:42 < jadew> and linux has a dedicated ssd, so that's not an issue either
2022-05-13T16:04:47 < jadew> should fly
2022-05-13T16:13:38 < jadew> also gnome is retarded, but at the same time, the best DE out there
2022-05-13T16:13:56 < jadew> (conclusions after a couple of weeks of full-time linux)
2022-05-13T16:15:48 < srk> no DE is the best DE :D
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2022-05-13T16:16:23 < jadew> well, the best in the sense that it has fewer bugs and things work almost as expected
2022-05-13T16:17:34 < jadew> I mean... sure the "save file" dialogue gets bigger every time it shows up, and after a couple of times you have to resize it back to a smaller size, but it is fairly polished and everything else works almost as expected
2022-05-13T16:17:48 < srk> :D
2022-05-13T16:18:10 < jadew> also the virtual desktop support is really nice
2022-05-13T16:18:13 < srk> imho it's the worst DE out there, maybe it got a lot better but I'm not interested anymore :)
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2022-05-13T16:18:15 < jadew> almost as good as on windows
2022-05-13T16:18:27 < jadew> out of the box it sucks
2022-05-13T16:18:53 < jadew> but it's configurable (with extensions) and the base code seems to be decent
2022-05-13T16:19:16 < srk> too much touch focus, very little options, too much javascript
2022-05-13T16:19:36 < jadew> (fewer core bugs than I found with kde plasma for example)
2022-05-13T16:19:49 < jadew> yeah, I got rid of all the touch stuff
2022-05-13T16:19:50 < srk> stability was extremely bad, but at least it can restart w/o loosing all the work :)
2022-05-13T16:20:23 < jadew> it sure has some stupid decision making in it
2022-05-13T16:20:29 < jadew> like the non-removable top bar
2022-05-13T16:20:33 < jadew> you can't even hide it
2022-05-13T16:20:42 < jadew> good thing there are extensions that do that
2022-05-13T16:20:42 < srk> I have plasma on my gaming rig and it's pretty decent, plasma-shell needs a kick from time to time because it starts to eat 100% cpu but overall it's pretty neat
2022-05-13T16:20:49 < srk> (very unstable plasma)
2022-05-13T16:21:11 < srk> my gf uses plasma, migrated from win10 this year
2022-05-13T16:21:24 < jadew> I liked the configurability, but overall it felt less well put together
2022-05-13T16:21:31 < srk> everything works out of box, including bluetooth
2022-05-13T16:21:42 < jadew> (used it for a couple of days, a couple of weeks ago)
2022-05-13T16:22:34 < jadew> don't remember why I gave up on it, but I think it was the lack of nice support for virtual desktop, antiquated task bar, and application switching
2022-05-13T16:22:39 < srk> gtk themes and scrollbars :((
2022-05-13T16:23:17 < jadew> do you know the windows + tab feature in windows 10?
2022-05-13T16:23:41 < jadew> gnome has that which I think it's a big plus
2022-05-13T16:23:44 < srk> not quite sure
2022-05-13T16:23:59 < jadew> it allows you to easily sort your windows into the virtual desktops they belong to
2022-05-13T16:24:09 < srk> my primary driver is xmonad because I can't be bothered moving windows around :)
2022-05-13T16:24:19 < srk> have like ~20 virtual workspace
2022-05-13T16:24:19 < srk> :D
2022-05-13T16:24:39 < jadew> I like the way it looks
2022-05-13T16:24:49 < jadew> might give it a try
2022-05-13T16:25:00 < srk> sometimes it gets hard to find the right thing but there are ways around that
2022-05-13T16:25:08 < jadew> I felt the need for better tiling support
2022-05-13T16:25:58 < srk> yeah, you can try xmonad/awesome/i3
2022-05-13T16:26:30 < jadew> hmm, windows don't have a caption bar?
2022-05-13T16:26:31 < srk> xmonad is extremely minimal by default and you have to bring in things like status bar or launch menu
2022-05-13T16:26:41 < srk> nope, no decorations
2022-05-13T16:26:54 < jadew> ah, maybe not for me then, I drag my windows around all the time
2022-05-13T16:27:31 < srk> you can drag windows around, they are turned into floating ones
2022-05-13T16:30:20 < jadew> gnome's WMs only tiling feature seems to be maximized, or one half or the other of the screen
2022-05-13T16:30:23 < jadew> kind of pathetic
2022-05-13T16:30:38 < jadew> also, I miss the always on top feature being available on all windows
2022-05-13T16:30:45 < jadew> (maybe there's an extension for it)
2022-05-13T16:32:24 < Xogium> I love ratpoison
2022-05-13T16:32:53 < Xogium> fast as hell when you're blind and all you want is some minimal stuff that lets you do keyboard shortcut to run one app or another
2022-05-13T16:33:26 < Xogium> like I press my defined escape key sequence, then the w key, and it launches my web browser
2022-05-13T16:33:43 < Xogium> can't beat having to go on desktop and searching for the icon
2022-05-13T16:33:47 < srk> :)) cool
2022-05-13T16:34:08 < Xogium> its just so much slower doing it that way
2022-05-13T16:34:19 < jadew> you don't have super + w for that?
2022-05-13T16:34:42 < jadew> super + e for file browser, super + t for terminal - essential shortcuts to have
2022-05-13T16:35:13 < Xogium> hmm well I defined super as my escape key
2022-05-13T16:35:21 < jadew> ah :)
2022-05-13T16:35:43 < Xogium> so for everything I want to do its super then some other key
2022-05-13T16:36:08 < jadew> I find the idea of a mouse-less DE interesting
2022-05-13T16:36:21 < jadew> back in the windows 95 days, I was out of a mouse for about a year
2022-05-13T16:36:23 < Xogium> kinda like gnu screen but for the gui ;D
2022-05-13T16:36:28 < jadew> and I got super fast with my keyboard alone
2022-05-13T16:36:42 < srk> it helps with RSI as well
2022-05-13T16:36:43 < jadew> when I got back to the mouse I realized its shortcomings
2022-05-13T16:37:39 < jadew> I don't experience RSI from computer stuff
2022-05-13T16:37:53 < Xogium> what's RSI ?
2022-05-13T16:38:00 < jadew> repeated stress injury
2022-05-13T16:38:13 < jadew> it's when your hand hurts because of the position you have at the keyboard
2022-05-13T16:38:25 < Xogium> oh ! Like carpal tunel stuff ?
2022-05-13T16:38:28 < jadew> yeah
2022-05-13T16:38:35 < Xogium> and that's probably not the right name
2022-05-13T16:38:51 < jadew> I think I get that with my laptop tho
2022-05-13T16:38:58 < srk> yep, and moving your hand between keyboard and mouse often is one of the causes as well
2022-05-13T16:38:59 < jadew> but that's because I rarely use it
2022-05-13T16:39:34 < jadew> do you guys keep the keyboard on the desk?
2022-05-13T16:39:54 < srk> yes
2022-05-13T16:40:06 < jadew> I don't think I've had it on my desk in the past 20 years or more
2022-05-13T16:40:19 < srk> fun :)
2022-05-13T16:40:34 < srk> I want to try switching to a split keyboard
2022-05-13T16:40:37 < jadew> it's always on my lap or resting in a weird position between my armrest and my lap
2022-05-13T16:43:00 < Xogium> I have the keyboard on my desk too, hard to do otherwise with a tower
2022-05-13T16:44:30 < jadew> I would post a picture, but I haven't figured out how to share a folder on linux yet
2022-05-13T16:44:36 < jadew> (I know how, it's just that it doesn't work)
2022-05-13T16:44:47 < jadew> apparently new bug
2022-05-13T16:45:31 < jadew> the solution is for all the folders in the path to be +777, which is not gonna happen
2022-05-13T16:53:43 < jadew> bluetooth isn't working either
2022-05-13T17:10:34 < benishor> <jadew> I would post a picture, but I haven't figured out how to share a folder on linux yet
2022-05-13T17:10:41 < benishor> just upload the desired pic to imgur
2022-05-13T17:11:07 < jadew> I'm not uploading personal pictures on parts of internet I do not control
2022-05-13T17:11:10 < benishor> carpal tunnel is mitigated by using appropriate mice and keyboards
2022-05-13T17:11:21 < benishor> jadew: you can use dropbox then
2022-05-13T17:11:35 < jadew> don't have it on my phone, too much of a hassle
2022-05-13T17:11:40 < benishor> or a personal web server, whatfuckingever
2022-05-13T17:11:57 < jadew> I have a personal webserver but how do I get my image from my phone to my pc?
2022-05-13T17:12:14 < jadew> without going through email, whatsapp, etc
2022-05-13T17:12:34 < benishor> I use dropbox for instance
2022-05-13T17:12:36  * karlp plugs the phone in, presses "share files?" on teh phone ui, and then gets a drive popup in linux,
2022-05-13T17:12:42  * karlp doesn't know how windows people do it.
2022-05-13T17:12:45 < jadew> karlp, hah, that's a good solution
2022-05-13T17:13:03 < benishor> I don't need to physically connect devices
2022-05-13T17:13:05 < jadew> windows people do it wireless, either via a shared folder (fastest) or via bluetooth
2022-05-13T17:13:19 < jadew> wired works too... (everything works on windows)
2022-05-13T17:13:24 < karlp> I also have the nextcloud app on my phone autoupload to my own nextcloud instance, so I rarely plug it in,
2022-05-13T17:13:33 < karlp> was pluygging in yesterday to dump a bunch of music on it for testing.
2022-05-13T17:13:46 < benishor> you can also check gsconnect
2022-05-13T17:13:47 < benishor> https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2018/11/connect-android-ubuntu-gsconnect
2022-05-13T17:14:05 < benishor> have used it for a while but then dumped it
2022-05-13T17:14:16 < benishor> not so keen on seeing phone notifications on desktop
2022-05-13T17:14:23 < jadew> heh
2022-05-13T17:14:35 < jadew> that sounds good actually - I don't get many notifications
2022-05-13T17:14:36 < benishor> it does however have file transfer capabilities
2022-05-13T17:14:53 < benishor> I get too many notifications and that's my fault, not the tech's
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2022-05-13T17:31:49 < aandrew> I use air share or whatever the iphone/apple equivalent is
2022-05-13T17:31:53 < aandrew> works well, but yeah no linux
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2022-05-13T18:42:19 < jadew> I was super happy with just accessing my windows share
2022-05-13T18:42:33 < jadew> the speed was great and no intermediaries
2022-05-13T18:42:57 < jadew> I'll have to figure out a solution for getting a proper share up on linux too
2022-05-13T18:47:11 < fenugrec> using syncthing here
2022-05-13T18:47:28 < fenugrec> runs on android/lin/win
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2022-05-13T22:23:43 < zyp> okay, I'm pretty happy about how this is working out: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/HS7er
2022-05-13T22:25:00 < zyp> the scalar types still needs some refinement, but hooking up the handlers is pretty much no-boilerplate now
2022-05-13T22:25:45 < zyp> here's the .proto defining the API and a python client exercising it: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/OYQnV https://paste.jvnv.net/view/P0m5H https://paste.jvnv.net/view/Qmne7
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2022-05-13T22:44:21 < kakium69> early night gang
2022-05-13T22:44:46 < zyp> is it that late already?
2022-05-13T22:44:51 < kakium69> :D
2022-05-13T22:45:02 < kakium69> evenings rather
2022-05-13T22:46:01 < zyp> I got your name suggestion into upstream protobuf today: https://github.com/protocolbuffers/protobuf/commit/366cb84
2022-05-13T22:49:01 < kakium69> hmm
2022-05-13T22:50:32 < qyx> you have a typo there
2022-05-13T22:50:39 < qyx> sorry, you sorried
2022-05-13T22:50:41 < Steffann> had
2022-05-13T22:50:44 < zyp> yeah
2022-05-13T22:50:46 -!- Steffann is now known as Steffanx
2022-05-13T22:51:26 < zyp> I don't think I were fully awake yet when I submitted the PR, considering I managed to consistently mistype it everywhere
2022-05-13T22:51:43 < zyp> but I caught it before it got merged, so it's all good
2022-05-13T22:52:27 < kakium69> is it like fork or something?
2022-05-13T22:52:54 < kakium69> implementation for something?
2022-05-13T22:53:01 < zyp> that document is a list of extension IDs for custom options
2022-05-13T22:53:30 < kakium69> what does it do?
2022-05-13T22:53:53 < zyp> stuff like this: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/gDEjL
2022-05-13T22:56:38 < kakium69> protobuf
2022-05-13T22:56:51 < kakium69> damn I tried to google from ircs
2022-05-13T22:57:22 < kakium69> need to concentrate
2022-05-13T22:59:40 < kakium69> why didn't you go with capnproto zyp?
2022-05-13T23:01:18 < zyp> I'm not sure it's suitable for embedded use
2022-05-13T23:03:03 < zyp> first google hit for «capnproto embedded»: https://groups.google.com/g/capnproto/c/lpc6Jeez6fs
2022-05-13T23:03:09 < zyp> «Look at nanopb» :p
2022-05-13T23:04:44 < jpa-> "and you'll feel so much better about whatever other library you end up with"
2022-05-13T23:05:12 < zyp> haha
2022-05-13T23:06:23 < zyp> naah, nanopb worked well enough for me last time I used it
2022-05-13T23:07:20 < jpa-> yeah, i'm just longing for the days when it was actually small and simple
2022-05-13T23:07:56 < zyp> haha, I can guess
2022-05-13T23:08:37 < zyp> I was doing basic encoding/decoding of messages and scalars in what, 300 lines?
2022-05-13T23:08:42 < zyp> now I've got… let's see
2022-05-13T23:09:31 < kakium69> what are you serializing zyp-+
2022-05-13T23:09:33 < kakium69> ?
2022-05-13T23:09:42 < kakium69> in embedded solution
2022-05-13T23:09:48 < zyp> static C++ code is around 700 lines now, that's not too bad
2022-05-13T23:09:55 < kakium69> gib me examples
2022-05-13T23:10:37 < zyp> kakium69, was planning to use this for controlling/monitoring the FOC implementation I'm planning to write
2022-05-13T23:11:00 < zyp> ref. https://bin.jvnv.net/file/AzqDt.mp4
2022-05-13T23:11:44 < kakium69> what is being serialized?
2022-05-13T23:11:53 < kakium69> everything?
2022-05-13T23:11:55 < zyp> usually I make a usb control request handler for poking at a device under development, but that board doesn't have usb, just the st-link's usb-serial
2022-05-13T23:11:59 < jpa-> what's your project recursion limit?
2022-05-13T23:12:11 < kakium69> 512
2022-05-13T23:12:33 < zyp> jpa-, there's no hard limit, everything is just soft-limited by time :)
2022-05-13T23:13:37 < kakium69> so control over usb?
2022-05-13T23:13:50 < zyp> the point is that I want to easily be able to call functions on the device from the host
2022-05-13T23:13:57 < kakium69> aaahh
2022-05-13T23:14:01 < jpa-> nowadays 2 is the most i can manage
2022-05-13T23:14:20 < kakium69> zyp: why?
2022-05-13T23:14:49 < jpa-> because rpc sometimes sounds like a good idea
2022-05-13T23:15:34 < zyp> because it's a lot more convenient to hack on a python script, or even python interactive than to recompile the firmware every time I want the device to do something different
2022-05-13T23:15:44 < kakium69> interesting
2022-05-13T23:15:52 < zyp> or for that matter if I want to make a GUI tool that also needs a way to talk to the device
2022-05-13T23:16:21 < qyx> I like your idea and I would use it but I fear it is going to be c++
2022-05-13T23:16:57 < qyx> or better to say, I am using protobufs to make "RPC" now
2022-05-13T23:17:05 < qyx> but in a nonstandard way
2022-05-13T23:17:22 < zyp> also, I figure I could also define a series of reserved service numbers for common stuff and put reusable handlers for those in laks
2022-05-13T23:17:33 < kakium69> so you separate it into absolute minimum bldc controller state machine and use host to interact with parameters?
2022-05-13T23:18:18 < zyp> e.g. I could say service 123 is reserved for I2C, with a standard set of methods to read and write I2C devices
2022-05-13T23:18:30 < kakium69> aah :o
2022-05-13T23:18:33 < kakium69> cool
2022-05-13T23:18:59 < zyp> then any time I'm bringing up stuff on a new laks project with I2C, I can just instance the i2c rpc handler from laks and go poke at it from python
2022-05-13T23:19:25 < zyp> ditto for SPI or any other common interface
2022-05-13T23:20:11 < kakium69> no need to change firmware
2022-05-13T23:20:35 < zyp> and yeah, for the bldc controller I'd start out with methods to set setpoints and controller gains, as well as start/stop
2022-05-13T23:21:07 < kakium69> can the controller work standalone from computer host?
2022-05-13T23:21:57 < kakium69> is it always working via that rpc thing
2022-05-13T23:22:21 < zyp> that's all up to what suits the project
2022-05-13T23:22:53 < zyp> but in general, the logic will end up on the device, it's just faster to prototype it in python first
2022-05-13T23:23:09 < kakium69> it is
2022-05-13T23:23:21 < kakium69> damn c++ is the slowest thing
2022-05-13T23:23:26 < kakium69> to develp
2022-05-13T23:23:53 < kakium69> I could do ad hoc C code 10times in time of one C++ implementation
2022-05-13T23:24:05 < zyp> qyx, tell me more
2022-05-13T23:24:40 < zyp> I'd like to see if you're doing something I haven't thought of, that I should accomodate to support or whatever :)
2022-05-13T23:25:49 < kakium69> you just need python2c++ converter zyp
2022-05-13T23:26:16 < zyp> C++20 is increasingly start to feel like writing python
2022-05-13T23:26:21 < zyp> auto all the things
2022-05-13T23:39:07 < kakium69> stickvise? is that good?
2022-05-13T23:40:19 < zyp> it's so so
2022-05-13T23:40:44 < zyp> I like the sensepeek holders a lot more, but they're at the office
2022-05-13T23:44:10 < zyp> speaking of, I used one of those yesterday, along with the MHP30 to assemble an antenna on a board
2022-05-13T23:45:12 < mawk> Steffanx: what is the infinitive of gegaard ?????
2022-05-13T23:45:38 < zyp> I bought the MHP30 for preheating stuff I'm gonna hotair, but it works surprisingly well for reflowing all on its own too
2022-05-13T23:47:00 < zyp> left the board on it for a minute or two while I got out the paste, and when I added some paste to the pads they were hot enough to melt it immediately
2022-05-13T23:47:42 < kakium69> zyp: plan to add some dynamic load to that bldc?
2022-05-13T23:47:55 < kakium69> maybe.. mirror the whole thing
2022-05-13T23:48:02 < zyp> that motor? no
2022-05-13T23:49:32 < zyp> I ordered a NEMA17-sized BLDC with encoder that I'm waiting for to arrive, that I'm gonna hook up to a ballscrew setup
2022-05-13T23:51:32 < zyp> if I can get it to work well, I'll put it on my CNC plasma
2022-05-13T23:51:41 < zyp> (ref. recursive projects)
2022-05-13T23:57:59 < kakium69> so you are doing your own control?
2022-05-13T23:59:30 < zyp> in what sense are you thinking?
2022-05-13T23:59:58 < zyp> I'm doing my own of anything, got too much NIH syndrome :p
--- Day changed la touko 14 2022
2022-05-14T00:00:57 < kakium69> national institutes of health syndrome?
2022-05-14T00:01:07 < zyp> «not invented here»
2022-05-14T00:01:38 < zyp> … I just like attempting stuff to learn how it works :)
2022-05-14T00:04:19 < zyp> I already hacked up a 3d printer controller a few years ago, that's what I used nanopb for
2022-05-14T00:04:50 < zyp> reusing stuff from that to control a CNC plasma shouldn't be too hard
2022-05-14T00:05:11 < zyp> but I'm curious how I can get BLDC servos to perform compared to steppers
2022-05-14T00:32:56 < upgrdman> is TPB still a good place for finding torrents? trying to find an old movie and some less popular music, and TPB has shit results (few results, and few people seeding)
2022-05-14T00:33:16 < upgrdman> KAT was nice back in the day, but they died a while ago :/
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2022-05-14T01:11:21 < kakium69> no
2022-05-14T01:12:43 < kakium69> TPB is for torrenting the latest franchise movie
2022-05-14T01:14:42 < upgrdman> kakium69, whats a better place
2022-05-14T01:14:59 < kakium69> if I knew
2022-05-14T01:16:37 < kakium69> I have an idea
2022-05-14T01:18:13 < kakium69> torrent releases have this release text file thing where someone with cool haxor name takes credit for providing the files
2022-05-14T01:19:11 < kakium69> google those names
2022-05-14T01:23:05 < kakium69> what is KAT?
2022-05-14T01:27:08 < upgrdman> kick ass torrents. www.kat.ph but they died ~5 years ago?
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2022-05-14T02:35:54 < catphish> i tried last night's code, it didn't seem to work, haven't had the available brain time to debug it yet
2022-05-14T02:50:51 < catphish> https://paste.debian.net/1240831/
2022-05-14T02:54:34 < catphish> less psychopathically formatted https://paste.debian.net/1240834/
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2022-05-14T09:01:58 < upgrdman> anyone use CubeIDE and configured triple ADCs in "triple regular simultaneous mode" ? i can't get it to work. in main() i call "HAL_ADCEx_MultiModeStart_DMA(&hadc1, (uint32_t*) &adc_buffer, ADC_BUFFER_SIZE);" but the DMA half-complete/complete/error handlers never get called. verified in debug, breakpoints never triggered.
2022-05-14T09:02:34 < upgrdman> is regular mode (not triple) it works fine with "HAL_ADC_Start_DMA(&hadc1, (uint32_t*) &adc1_buffer, ADC_BUFFER_SIZE);" repeated for each of the 3 ADCs
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2022-05-14T09:37:10 < upgrdman> shit, nevermind. i forgot to Start() adc2 and adc3, lol
2022-05-14T09:40:08 < emeb_mac> it's always something simple and stupid.
2022-05-14T09:54:59 < upgrdman> ya
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--- Day changed su touko 15 2022
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2022-05-15T01:02:28 < kaki> hello early
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2022-05-15T01:54:02 < fenugrec> anyone aware of a windows API/general dev IRC channel ? too lazy to go register on a forum to post dumb questions...
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2022-05-15T02:17:54 < catphish> so, i realised today that i screwed something up. my battery management system uses a 3.3V RS422 chip to communicate with a 5V differential serial device
2022-05-15T02:18:30 < catphish> at the time i thought "meh, +/- 3.3V should be plenty", but life isn't so simple
2022-05-15T02:20:15 < catphish> for you see kids, the line is AC coupled, and idles high, so from the 5v device's perspective, the lowest i can drive it is down to -1.6V
2022-05-15T02:20:40 < catphish> and when you take into account loss, noise, etc. that's annoyingly marginal
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2022-05-15T02:34:19 < kaki> fenugrec: https://www.youtube.com/c/DavesGarage/about you could ask from this dude's discord channel. he is creator of taskmgr.exe and explorer zip extension and stuff. I think he may have mentioned ircs in some of his videos.
2022-05-15T02:37:19 < fenugrec> thx
2022-05-15T02:39:40 < kaki> or ask at#c++general
2022-05-15T02:40:08 < kaki> #c++-general
2022-05-15T02:47:39 < catphish> ugh that guy is annoying
2022-05-15T02:47:52 < catphish> i've had the misfortune of being recommended his videos
2022-05-15T02:49:46 < kaki> some interesting stories from 90s microsoft
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2022-05-15T02:53:41 < kaki> catphish: didn't you have +5v signal in your schematics?
2022-05-15T02:53:59 < catphish> kaki: yes, i have a 5v supply
2022-05-15T02:54:37 < kaki> but it's 3v3?
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2022-05-15T02:56:40 < catphish> the board has 2 supplies, a 12V -> 5V stage, and a 5V -> 3v3 stage, everything actually runs at 3v3
2022-05-15T02:56:59 < kaki> *sigh*
2022-05-15T02:57:06 < catphish> the reason for the 2 stages is simply that the pi pico has the second stage built in, but it can't handle +12v input
2022-05-15T02:57:37 < catphish> fortunately for me, this means now i actually need a 5v supply, i have one ready
2022-05-15T02:57:54 < kaki> how tranceiver signals?
2022-05-15T02:57:57 < catphish> but i have to rework the board to route 5v to the line drivers, and add a level shifter
2022-05-15T02:58:17 < catphish> transceiver is RS422 chip
2022-05-15T02:58:50 < kaki> can that pi pico input 5v to gpio?
2022-05-15T02:59:00 < catphish> no
2022-05-15T02:59:19 < catphish> SN74LV1T34 will sort that
2022-05-15T02:59:37 < kaki> you could try resistors first
2022-05-15T02:59:50 < catphish> no benefit, just a waste of power, no?
2022-05-15T03:00:01 < catphish> cheaper i guess
2022-05-15T03:00:32 < catphish> but i worry about pushing 4MHz through a divider unless it's doing quite a bit of current
2022-05-15T03:01:16 < kaki> hmm
2022-05-15T03:01:23 < kaki> 4mbaud
2022-05-15T03:01:31 < kaki> thats a lot for resistor solution
2022-05-15T03:03:12 < catphish> yeah :(
2022-05-15T03:03:37 < fenugrec> capacitive divider ? heh
2022-05-15T03:03:43 < kaki> level shifter might be the only correct solution
2022-05-15T03:06:45 < kaki> unless there is rs422 tranceiver with dual voltage
2022-05-15T03:09:16 < catphish> i couldn't find one, and the cost would be silly compared to the level shifter anyway
2022-05-15T03:12:18 < kaki> https://www.ti.com/product/THVD1449V
2022-05-15T03:13:30 < catphish> nice part
2022-05-15T03:13:40 < kaki> but pinout is bit different and RE and DE are combined function
2022-05-15T03:14:39 < catphish> https://www.mouser.co.uk/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/THVD1449VDR?qs=t7xnP681wgVIycSjRENISg%3D%3D
2022-05-15T03:15:43 < mawk> what's your question fenugrec 
2022-05-15T03:16:25 < kaki> catphish: yeah
2022-05-15T03:16:29 < fenugrec> mawk, I'm trying to create a "log" window (just plain scrolling textbox) but from a DLL - so I don't have a winmain() or a message loop, and no parent window handle AFAIK
2022-05-15T03:17:02 < fenugrec> (full disclosure, I just cross-posted in #winapi too)
2022-05-15T03:17:08 < mawk> intuitively I'd say make a new process for that
2022-05-15T03:17:11 < mawk> but I don't do windows much
2022-05-15T03:17:50 < kaki> interesting there isn't so many differential drivers with separate Vio catphish
2022-05-15T03:18:11 < catphish> kaki: yeah i was disapointed when i looked
2022-05-15T03:18:25 < catphish> but a ISL8485E and a level shifter costs less than a dollar :)
2022-05-15T03:18:27 < fenugrec> new process... sounds compliqué. I'm sending log messages from a few different threads, guarded with a mutex, but not sure how to do that accross processes
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2022-05-15T05:46:00 < mawk> Windows has great IPC facilities fenugrec 
2022-05-15T05:46:18 < mawk> je veux dire, Windows a de bons mécanismes de communication inter-processus
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2022-05-15T12:25:20 < Steffanx> Je ne parle pas français monsieur mawk 
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2022-05-15T14:44:16 < mawk> mais si
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2022-05-15T15:22:03 < fenugrec> ces mécanismes me sont inconnus
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2022-05-15T15:58:00 < englishman> distribuer les travaux d’un façon égale entre les processeurs? communisme
2022-05-15T15:59:14 < fenugrec> yes, better leave it to the Invisible Hand of the OS
2022-05-15T16:02:19 < mawk> lol
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2022-05-15T16:58:41 < Mangy_Dog> finally fixed my header errors. was my fault.... had some bad extern calls or bad splits between some headers and cpp files... 
2022-05-15T17:00:17 < Mangy_Dog> thanks to everyone who helped me try and figure it out... but in the end i had to look at the function / var / decliration in question and ignore the error locations... And methodically go to the first error in the list. and double check now theyre being created or declared... and yep had the odd few externs setting a value or not split across the header and cpp file correctly... 
2022-05-15T17:01:09 < Mangy_Dog> what really wasnt helping me earlier on was the nonsensical error messages in the build log. Pointing to locations that had nothing to do with the error... such as mid line or on a bracket of some random file. So yeah ignored the locations and just focused on the declirations
2022-05-15T17:01:13 < Mangy_Dog> in the end fixed it
2022-05-15T17:01:18  * Mangy_Dog breaths
2022-05-15T17:11:16 < mawk> désolé Mangy_Dog on parle français ici
2022-05-15T17:11:19 < mawk> l'anglais est interdit
2022-05-15T17:11:32 < Mangy_Dog> D:
2022-05-15T17:11:32 < mawk> on va se débarrasser de l'envahisseur anglo-saxon à la pointe de nos fourches
2022-05-15T17:11:35 < Mangy_Dog> i dont speak french
2022-05-15T17:11:44 < mawk> c'est très facile à apprendre
2022-05-15T17:13:23 < Mangy_Dog> tbh i had to glle translate as i only got about 10% of it
2022-05-15T17:13:46 < Mangy_Dog> anyway thanks for giving us 12 points yesterday
2022-05-15T17:15:19 < mawk> lol
2022-05-15T17:21:45 < mawk> the manifest of payton gendron is pretty shitty
2022-05-15T17:22:04 < mawk> it's full of copypasta and memes and he plagiarized tarrent's manifesto at the end
2022-05-15T17:40:07 < Steffanx> ok, do i look like someone that cares about such manifest? :P
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2022-05-15T17:47:58 < mawk> maybe
2022-05-15T17:48:01 < mawk> there are some good ones
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2022-05-15T20:09:03 < karlp> Mangy_Dog: if yuo have a pile of errors, it's always best to start with the first one, not the last one, because they can chain cascade into more and  more broken.
2022-05-15T20:09:20 < Mangy_Dog> yeah
2022-05-15T20:09:34 < Mangy_Dog> i was at first ignoreing them as they frankly made no sence
2022-05-15T20:09:35 < Mangy_Dog> i mean
2022-05-15T20:09:41 < Mangy_Dog> i wasnt ignoring them as i was fixing the headers
2022-05-15T20:09:51 < Mangy_Dog> i went through them methodically 
2022-05-15T20:09:59 < Mangy_Dog> then all of a sudden 1000+ new errors
2022-05-15T20:12:18 < Mangy_Dog> its frustrating what was a previously working program :D
2022-05-15T20:12:22 < Mangy_Dog> anyway i have a new issue
2022-05-15T20:12:33 < Mangy_Dog> even though all teh headers are now split and appear to be linking correctly and the program builds
2022-05-15T20:12:36 < Mangy_Dog> umm
2022-05-15T20:12:44 < Mangy_Dog> previously the program was 115kb total binary
2022-05-15T20:12:48 < Mangy_Dog> now its only 35kb
2022-05-15T20:12:53 < Mangy_Dog> and doesnt appear to run
2022-05-15T20:13:12 < Mangy_Dog> so 2 things... 1 a bug i introduced that stops the obviouse signs of the program running from happening....
2022-05-15T20:13:27 < Mangy_Dog> or 2
2022-05-15T20:14:02 < Mangy_Dog> with all teh splits and the new way the builder is handling things... i have inadvertendly chopped out two thirds of my program and its not getting fully compiled
2022-05-15T20:14:20 < Mangy_Dog> along with 1.... some how splitting files has made the optimiser more efficiant
2022-05-15T20:18:56 < karlp> from what I have read of what you "fixedd", you likely had many copies of things in your old code.
2022-05-15T20:20:24 < Mangy_Dog> not so sure
2022-05-15T20:20:55 < Mangy_Dog> it was more a case of not splitting the cpp and h files correctly and maybe miss declaring a few things as i just went through each time
2022-05-15T20:20:56 < Mangy_Dog> file
2022-05-15T20:26:14 < Mangy_Dog> but something i put at the top of setup() also isnt running so im not entirely sure whats going wrong
2022-05-15T20:26:25 < Mangy_Dog> and my debug tools are kinda broken at the moment :/
2022-05-15T20:26:34 < Mangy_Dog> i need to set them up again
2022-05-15T21:26:46 < PaulFertser> When you declare something (a function or a variable) in a header file you get a copy of it in every cpp file that includes that header. That's why karlp talked about copies.
2022-05-15T21:28:58 < PaulFertser> s/declare/define/
2022-05-15T21:39:01 < catphish> i hate computers sometimes, i've written a PWM input routine for my RP2040, testing it with the PWM output of an arduino, and it's not accurate at all, but i can't work out how either could be wrong :'(
2022-05-15T21:40:59 < PaulFertser> At times like that an oscilloscope can be quite revealing.
2022-05-15T21:41:28 < catphish> yes, i think i'm going to need one :'(
2022-05-15T21:42:12 < fenugrec> some DMMs can measure pwm
2022-05-15T21:42:43 < PaulFertser> A cheap logic analyser would work too, and you can use another rp2040 as one.
2022-05-15T21:42:45 < fenugrec> a simple R+C would also let you sanity check
2022-05-15T21:42:57 < fenugrec> heck even a soundcard
2022-05-15T21:44:23 < PaulFertser> https://github.com/pico-coder/sigrok-pico
2022-05-15T21:48:09 < srk> neat
2022-05-15T21:48:47 < PaulFertser> "Supports up to 21 digital inputs capture via PIO (up to 120Mhz) and 3 ADC channels, all captured via DMA." https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=330316
2022-05-15T21:49:44 < srk> https://github.com/pico-coder/sigrok-pico/blob/main/AnalyzerDetails.md
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2022-05-15T21:59:09 < karlp> with like ~zero sampling buffer though iirc, so have fun with it :)
2022-05-15T21:59:35 < karlp> everyone should have an fx2la compatible device lying around, super handy.
2022-05-15T22:01:51 < srk> yea, just compared it to a scope with ~20M points
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2022-05-15T22:15:10 < catphish> i do have a LA, that should do the job nicely
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2022-05-15T22:50:58 < catphish> looks like it's my implementation that sucks :)
2022-05-15T22:51:14 < catphish> not terribly surprising, i wouldn't imagine atmega's pwm timer was broken
2022-05-15T22:52:07 < Steffanx> rp2040 does not have pwm and you have to use the pio stuff?
2022-05-15T22:52:20 < Steffanx> *input capture
2022-05-15T22:53:03 < catphish> Steffanx: it does have input capture, but it doesn't seem very useful
2022-05-15T22:53:24 < kaki> can't you make it to do anything with the inputs anyway
2022-05-15T22:53:38 < catphish> https://github.com/raspberrypi/pico-examples/blob/master/pwm/measure_duty_cycle/measure_duty_cycle.c
2022-05-15T22:53:46 < catphish> ^ this is the example PWM code for the rp2040
2022-05-15T22:54:15 < catphish> it has a "how many cycles has thing pin been high" counter, but you basically have to start and stop it with a busy loop
2022-05-15T22:54:51 < catphish> i want it to automatically count cycles from a fallng edge to a rising edge
2022-05-15T22:55:53 < catphish> IMO this is garbage: https://github.com/raspberrypi/pico-examples/blob/master/pwm/measure_duty_cycle/measure_duty_cycle.c#L31..L36
2022-05-15T23:02:40 < Steffanx> hmpf
2022-05-15T23:03:37 < zyp> catphish, so essentially what you're saying is that rp2040 isn't actually as awesome as you were claiming a few weeks ago?
2022-05-15T23:06:14 < Steffanx> lol
2022-05-15T23:09:26 < qyx> the rp30something on rpi zero w2 is more interesting
2022-05-15T23:09:46 < qyx> but they are not willing to sell it
2022-05-15T23:11:11 < catphish> zyp: my opinion hasn't changed, if you want USB, SPI, I2c and PIO, it's awesome, if you want any other peripherals, you have to write them yourself!
2022-05-15T23:18:08 < catphish> the arduino and my PWM implementation are both fine, there's just a little bit of capacitance somewhere in my hardware causing a small increase in the pule width
2022-05-15T23:31:31 < catphish> it adds about 0.5% to the PWM pulse, luckily negligable for my purpose, just annogingly noticeable when looking at numbers on paper :)
2022-05-15T23:33:29 < catphish> *0.5% of 100% PWM, quite noticeable when the PWM is set to 1/255, negligable at 50%
2022-05-15T23:39:26 < catphish> oh, it's also a rock solidly consistent value, i can just subtract it :)
2022-05-15T23:39:34 < catphish> thanks rubber ducks
--- Day changed ma touko 16 2022
2022-05-16T00:33:11 < qyx> isn't your computation wrong?
2022-05-16T00:33:21 < qyx> off by one error maybe?
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2022-05-16T02:15:46 < catphish> qyx: nope, confirmed with my logic analyser, something in my level shifter is messing with the timing
2022-05-16T02:17:48 < catphish> though i have no idea what / why
2022-05-16T02:19:12 < catphish> i was sure it wasn't a code error, because it's not off by one, or a couple of one 3-instruction loop, it's off by... 138
2022-05-16T02:20:04 < catphish> about 5 microseconds
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2022-05-16T12:16:52 < jpa-> meh, this is stupid
2022-05-16T12:18:24 < jpa-> SDIO access works, but when i connect logic analyzer (200 kohm pulldown, 100pF capacitance) to the SDIO_CMD pin, it stops working - but then when i *also* connect oscilloscope (10 Mohm pulldown, 15 pF capacitance), it starts working again
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2022-05-16T12:25:56 < jpa-> ah, i forgot that i have this ultra low capacitance differential probe
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2022-05-16T12:26:21 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/sdio_noise.png  so looks like the logic analyzer leaks capacitively between channels
2022-05-16T12:26:37 < jpa-> and that causes some funny edges during the bus turnaround time on the bidirectional SDIO_CMD line
2022-05-16T12:28:09 < jpa-> and then it turns out solution is simple also, just move SDIO_CMD to probe 15 so that it is far away from SDIO_CLK on the logic analyzer pcb
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2022-05-16T13:54:18 < karlp> nice.
2022-05-16T13:54:46 < karlp> I was doing some LA work the other day, and wsa getting horrible results, it was interferering with the signal far too much.
2022-05-16T13:54:55 < karlp> probably need a "real" LA I guess.
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2022-05-16T15:41:19 < fenugrec> the logic16 clones tend to do this sometimes too
2022-05-16T15:43:49 < BrainDamage> the probe layout probably have a lot to do with that
2022-05-16T15:45:38 < fenugrec> in my case IIRC just having the LA close was polluting some signals pretty bad. Can't remember what I was working on though
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2022-05-16T16:01:51 < karlp> this was a logic16 clone yeah,
2022-05-16T16:06:16 < karlp> I have a different one, should try that one, might be subtley differnt
2022-05-16T16:12:32 < jpa-> mine is logic16 clone also
2022-05-16T16:14:25 < jpa-> usually "real" logic analyzers have series resistor at the end that is closest to the probe hook, to reduce capacitive loading
2022-05-16T16:14:38 < jpa-> but that makes the cable special and expensive
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2022-05-16T16:24:20 < karlp> like, 22ohm or something?
2022-05-16T16:25:10 < karlp> I guess I could try soldering in resistors to probe, it's only two lines...
2022-05-16T16:25:27 < jpa-> i would guess 100 ohm
2022-05-16T16:26:26 < BrainDamage> I wonder if there's LA cables with tiny coax lines
2022-05-16T16:26:38 < jpa-> but i guess it helps more with the really high frequency signals (>50 MHz), for low frequency stuff it is more about DC load and input capacitance
2022-05-16T16:26:45 < fenugrec> on some HP LA's it's 250R, then R_to_GND = 100k
2022-05-16T16:26:53 < fenugrec> for an equivalent Cin of 8-10pF
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2022-05-16T16:28:02 < fenugrec> " The cables use nichrome wire woven in polyarmid yarn for reliability and durability. The pods also include one ground path per channel [...]. The probe tip assemblies and termination modules connected at the end of the probe cables have a divide-by-10 RC network "
2022-05-16T16:28:31 < jpa-> so basically miniature scope probe
2022-05-16T16:28:51 < fenugrec> logic16 is in a totally different league
2022-05-16T16:29:26 < jpa-> and the clones especially
2022-05-16T16:29:36 < fenugrec> yea
2022-05-16T16:29:38 < jpa-> i think mine has zener diodes for input protection, which explains the terrible capacitance
2022-05-16T16:31:41 < karlp> BrainDamage: iirc, dslogic, which was the kickstarter that ... was liberal with sigrok/pulseview code had coax LA leads on their gear
2022-05-16T16:32:18 < jpa-> IIRC dslogic has shielded cables but not impedance controlled
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2022-05-16T16:33:20 < jpa-> (which probably doesn't matter for digital signals and short cables at such speeds)
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2022-05-16T16:36:22 < karlp> I have one of these, https://sigrok.org/wiki/Mcupro_Logic16_clone and one of these : https://sigrok.org/wiki/Noname_XL-LOGIC16-100M
2022-05-16T16:40:06 < karlp> and now I have thes too: https://nc.beeroclock.net/s/dCnPoMb8QSpceai
2022-05-16T16:40:27 < karlp> will give it a go, 110ohm and 220ohm, because I started solderin gbefore reading fenugrec's lines...
2022-05-16T16:41:01 < jpa-> such fancy
2022-05-16T16:41:09 < karlp> such single purpose.
2022-05-16T16:45:24 < fenugrec> what is karl probing
2022-05-16T16:49:23 < karlp> the "two wire" "swd" on wch riscv parts.
2022-05-16T16:56:04 < fenugrec> heh, 2-wire always means "at least 4". Gnd, reset, vcc ....
2022-05-16T17:09:49 < aandrew> heh
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2022-05-16T21:05:40 < catphish> morning
2022-05-16T21:06:28 < catphish> today i achieved very little but i installed this socket, and that makes me happy https://i.imgur.com/vIV0ZtN.jpg
2022-05-16T21:28:36 < zyp> nice
2022-05-16T21:29:09 < zyp> shame it's AC only :)
2022-05-16T21:29:35 < catphish> zyp: i considered DC charging, didn't really seem worth it, but can always add later
2022-05-16T21:31:08 < zyp> I wanna build a workbench/welding bench, so I picked up a suitable benchtop today: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/826884015054127104/975717573628923914/IMG_20220516_131240.jpg
2022-05-16T21:33:57 < catphish> steel slab?
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2022-05-16T21:34:23 < catphish> i'm more impressed by the room, is that your space?
2022-05-16T21:35:27 < zyp> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/797468335969271818/971011817977552896/unknown.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/797468335969271818/971011817591681115/unknown.png https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/797468335969271818/971011819151978496/unknown.png
2022-05-16T21:36:37 < zyp> just became available a few weeks ago, so I'm renting it with some friends
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2022-05-16T21:43:28 < catphish> awesome
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2022-05-16T21:46:57 < zyp> yeah, now I've got room for all the fun things I want to do, next up is just having time and money :)
2022-05-16T21:51:16 < catphish> lol
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2022-05-16T22:14:08 < englishman> cool zyp
2022-05-16T22:18:07 < Steffanx> Awesome looking space indeed
2022-05-16T22:20:53 < qyx> zyp: doesn't seem insulated
2022-05-16T22:20:58 < qyx> is it even heated during winter?
2022-05-16T22:21:46 < zyp> the outer walls are sandwich panels
2022-05-16T22:22:01 < zyp> but no, it's gonna be cold in winter :)
2022-05-16T22:23:37 < qyx> how far is it from your home?
2022-05-16T22:24:52 < zyp> five minutes, it's close to my office
2022-05-16T22:26:12 < catphish> my workshop i'm using is 45 minutes drive away :(
2022-05-16T22:28:05 < Steffanx> Like 1 charge of your new car? :F
2022-05-16T22:28:08 < Steffanx> :D
2022-05-16T22:29:23 < catphish> can anyone explain "kv" ratings of brushless motors to me? i don't quite understand why velocity would be limited by voltage
2022-05-16T22:29:38 < jpa-> hacklab is 30-50 minutes away from home, depending on wind
2022-05-16T22:30:01 < jpa-> catphish: backemf
2022-05-16T22:31:13 < jpa-> the motor is also generator, you need to feed higher voltage than it would generate, otherwise power flows out of motor, not into it
2022-05-16T22:32:12 < zyp> damn, that's the simplest and most obvious explanation of it that I've heard
2022-05-16T22:34:10 < jpa-> the weird stuff is why speed/voltage = current/torque * 2pi
2022-05-16T22:34:22 < zyp> jpa-, while we're at it, what does that mean for regenerated power when braking?
2022-05-16T22:36:50 < jpa-> zyp: it kind-of means that regeneration voltage is lower than battery voltage and gets boosted because the h-bridge looks like synchronous buxk regulator when driving and like synchronous boost when braking
2022-05-16T22:37:26 < zyp> like, if I'm running a motor at x RPM, and then I simply shut down all the transistors, how much do I have to worry about the generated voltage treating the body diodes as a rectifier and feeding back into the supply?
2022-05-16T22:38:07 < mawk> without freewheeling diode?
2022-05-16T22:38:42 < zyp> I couldn't entirely wrap my head around it when I were doing the motor control project at work
2022-05-16T22:39:36 < jpa-> ideally, not much - but when the coil magnetic field is not exactly 90 deg to rotor field, it amplifies or reduces it, causing change in kv constant ( term if "field weakening")
2022-05-16T22:39:46 < zyp> if I asked the motor controller for 0 torque, everything were fine, but if I asked it for negative torque, it fed into the supply
2022-05-16T22:39:47 < jpa-> *is
2022-05-16T22:40:16 < zyp> I blew up some other parts on the supply rail once :)
2022-05-16T22:41:12 < jpa-> as soon as you turn transistors on, it starts acting as dc-dc converter
2022-05-16T22:41:28 < zyp> supply was nominally 24V and the EVSPIN32G4 is rated for like 75V or something, so that had no issues with it, but the other parts on the rail did :p
2022-05-16T22:42:32 < zyp> and yeah, acting like buck/boost makes sense
2022-05-16T22:42:58 < zyp> part of why I want to do my own foc implementation is so I can understand this stuff better
2022-05-16T22:43:05 < jpa-> (you also get the inductive spike the first time you turn transistors off, but if you pwm them, you get the spike all the time and rail capacitors charge up)
2022-05-16T22:49:56 < catphish> jpa-: back emf would seem to be the answer, but motors are complicated, so i don't fully understand it
2022-05-16T22:50:48 < catphish> but i guess it's the point at which the torque reaches zero, even at optimal slip angle
2022-05-16T22:58:05 < jpa-> there is no slip angle for permanent magnet motors
2022-05-16T22:58:43 < jpa-> and no kv constant for induction motors
2022-05-16T23:01:11 < jpa-> torque goes to zero when you can't maintain the stator current even when you put full voltage on the coil
2022-05-16T23:02:13 < jpa-> because the rotor magnetic field is generating equally large voltage, there is no voltage difference and stator current falls to 0
2022-05-16T23:15:57 < fenugrec> englishman is that you https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/news/2022/5/75-year-old-quebec-man-becomes-oldest-person-to-perform-a-headstand-703458
2022-05-16T23:17:24 < englishman> no i'm really fat now
2022-05-16T23:19:54 < mawk> why
2022-05-16T23:23:12 < catphish> jpa-: nonsense, PM motors require a slip angle of 90 degrees
2022-05-16T23:23:30 < catphish> same as async motors
2022-05-16T23:25:47 < catphish> what i understand less though is the concept of "field weakening", which is i believe what allows induction motors not to have a "kv" limit
2022-05-16T23:27:25 < catphish> but yes, it makes sense that with a permanent magnet motor, you would have a hard limit on the speed at which you can apply torque because back emf will always increase with speed
2022-05-16T23:29:21 < BrainDamage> you can see it another way, instead of the back emf canceling the torque, you can see the magnetic field generated by the rotor cancelling the stator, hence no more torque, while induction motors don't have that limitations because both are proportional to the current
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2022-05-16T23:50:41 < karlp> ok, 220ohm series it at least idles high, but some garbage ringing now.   at least it's not interfering withopenocd now though https://bin.jvnv.net/file/3BafK.png
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2022-05-16T23:55:57 < englishman> mawk because when i started haltérophilie about a year ago i started eating a lot more and i'm like always hungry
2022-05-16T23:56:13 < mawk> I'm never hungry
2022-05-16T23:56:19 < mawk> I haven't eaten anything last 3 days
2022-05-16T23:56:46 < mawk> you can train yourself to not be hungry
2022-05-16T23:57:26 < kaki> hello early
2022-05-16T23:57:31 < kaki> gender ispector is here
2022-05-16T23:57:42 < kaki> *inspector
2022-05-16T23:59:37 < catphish> kaki: what gender am i?
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--- Day changed ti touko 17 2022
2022-05-17T00:02:27 < kaki> can't know in internets for sure
2022-05-17T00:03:48 < englishman> i can also train to be good at haltérophilie
2022-05-17T00:04:06 < kaki> was is dat?
2022-05-17T00:05:03 < kaki> en anglais : weight lifting
2022-05-17T00:06:16 < kaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y21n7_dKTkQ
2022-05-17T00:07:02 < catphish> worst gender inspector ever
2022-05-17T00:08:22 < kaki> anything today catphish?
2022-05-17T00:09:10 < catphish> kaki: oh, are the the other guy but with a new name?
2022-05-17T00:09:52 < catphish> kaki: actually i achieved just one thing today, it took about 10 minutes, but it makes me very happy https://i.imgur.com/vIV0ZtN.jpg
2022-05-17T00:10:22 < kaki> nice
2022-05-17T00:11:16 < catphish> it's not even connected to anything yet, but it looks awesome
2022-05-17T00:11:59 < kaki> it looks legit
2022-05-17T00:12:13 < kaki> is such nice connector $$?
2022-05-17T00:13:01 < catphish> kaki: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002125606042.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.5e7218028FE2wi
2022-05-17T00:13:47 < catphish> surprisingly good quality, $52
2022-05-17T00:14:42 < kaki> looks like PA66-GF??
2022-05-17T00:15:23 < catphish> wut?
2022-05-17T00:15:31 < kaki> glass filled nylon
2022-05-17T00:15:55 < kaki> it could be just the surface finish giving that look
2022-05-17T00:16:05 < catphish> the socket?
2022-05-17T00:16:12 < catphish> or the car?
2022-05-17T00:17:04 < kaki> socket
2022-05-17T00:17:28 < catphish> no idea, i assumed it was just ABS or whatever plastic china had lying arounf
2022-05-17T00:17:31 < catphish> *around
2022-05-17T00:18:22 < kaki> probs
2022-05-17T00:21:37 < kaki> https://www.plasticomp.com/wp-content/uploads/velocity-LFT-surface-finish.png when you see this surface it's quality stuffs
2022-05-17T00:24:41 < karlp> ok, well, wch protocol really doesn't seem to be swd or cjtag then.
2022-05-17T00:25:34 < catphish> interesting
2022-05-17T00:25:47 < catphish> the car is made of fibreglass :)
2022-05-17T00:37:18 < kaki> how thick is it?
2022-05-17T00:37:34 < kaki> does it have steel frames for body panels?
2022-05-17T00:37:55 < kaki> kinda fused into the composite?
2022-05-17T00:38:25 < catphish> the chassis is aluminium tube, the body panels are just huge fibreglass "shells"
2022-05-17T00:38:46 < kaki> hmm
2022-05-17T00:39:08 < kaki> do those panels hold shape if you remove them from car?
2022-05-17T00:40:08 < Steffanx> Why would you want to be good at weight lifting, englishman 
2022-05-17T00:44:06 < kaki> is it like egg shell or like tortoise shell catphish?
2022-05-17T00:52:15 < catphish> kaki: yes: https://imgur.com/a/CO5EjHI
2022-05-17T00:53:37 < catphish> those bolt into the aluminium chassis
2022-05-17T00:54:06 < catphish> https://i.imgur.com/RmFq9eJ.jpg
2022-05-17T00:55:01 < catphish> the car is basically in 3 parts, chassis doors and side panels, then the front ant rear "clamshells" pictured above
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2022-05-17T01:17:00 < kaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAHxclSxwRE musics
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2022-05-17T03:18:07 < englishman> Steffanx specifically olympic weight lifting
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2022-05-17T08:51:13 < jpa-> catphish: no, 90 degrees for PM motors is torque angle, it is constant in relation to rotor angle
2022-05-17T08:52:05 < jpa-> catphish: in induction motors the rotor magnetic field is determined by the slip, i.e. how fast the rotor angle is changing in relation to the stator magnetic field angle; induction motors do not need field weakening because there is no permanent field in the rotor
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2022-05-17T11:18:40 < catphish> jpa-: that torque angle is the same for induction motors though
2022-05-17T11:19:42 < jpa-> yes, if you calculate it from the rotor magnetic field to stator magnetic field
2022-05-17T11:20:01 < jpa-> but in induction motors the rotor magnetic field is not at constant angle to the rotor mechanism
2022-05-17T11:20:03 < catphish> even if you don't calculate it, the optimal angle is still 90 degrees
2022-05-17T11:20:29 < jpa-> if you calculate it from the rotor mechanical position, the angle between stator and rotor continuously slips
2022-05-17T11:20:29 < catphish> indeed, the rotor field moves over the rotor, makes it a pig to calculate
2022-05-17T11:21:15 < catphish> ah, so you can do field weakening on PM motors, by adjusting that angle, i didn't know what
2022-05-17T11:22:18 < catphish> on induction motors it largely happens on its own as you say
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2022-05-17T14:20:33 < jadew> woke up this morning, my linux system was unable to save anything because the filesystem was read only :/
2022-05-17T14:21:00 < jadew> rebooting also failed, I'm backing things up now and will try to fix it afterwards
2022-05-17T14:22:08 < Xogium> ouch, that's not fun
2022-05-17T14:22:26 < Xogium> linux does that to protect the data when something really mess the filesystem
2022-05-17T14:22:54 < jadew> I figured, but it's amazing how this kind of shit seems to happen constantly
2022-05-17T14:23:09 < Xogium> its absolutely amazing how you manage to hit this
2022-05-17T14:23:10 < Xogium> ;p
2022-05-17T14:23:23 < Xogium> in all my 8 years of linux, I've never had this happen
2022-05-17T14:25:07 < Xogium> oh, there was this one time where I saw it doing that, but it was on a truly crappy vps that was a scam
2022-05-17T14:25:28 < jadew> for me it's always been a sloppy experience, and I've been using it for 20+
2022-05-17T14:25:51 < Xogium> damn
2022-05-17T14:25:55 < Xogium> this is so strange
2022-05-17T14:26:32 < Xogium> I've been doing full time linux for those 8 years and it never actually did that sort of thing or behaved badly
2022-05-17T14:26:43 < Xogium> windows was far worse actually x)
2022-05-17T14:26:58 < jadew> I have the opposite experience
2022-05-17T14:27:16 < jadew> I think in part it might be because of the complexity of my machine - it was always been different from what you normally find
2022-05-17T14:27:20 < Xogium> the last time I used it, there was a  fucked up update to the antivirus shoved down my throat by the government and that made it think windows itself was a virus
2022-05-17T14:27:33 < Xogium> that was quite impressive, the speed at which things went south lol
2022-05-17T14:28:19 < jadew> wasn't there a NSA leak a couple of years ago that showed that they can get into any system?
2022-05-17T14:28:56 < jadew> (which is what you would expect anyway)
2022-05-17T14:29:02 < Xogium> possibly ? But if they can get in any system then, what's the point of worrying about it anyway ?
2022-05-17T14:29:33 < jadew> you can worry about other people getting into your system
2022-05-17T14:29:47 < jadew> and operate on the assumption that the government doesn't want to hurt you
2022-05-17T14:31:07 < Xogium> oh nah I know the government is bad :p
2022-05-17T14:31:19 < jadew> :)
2022-05-17T14:31:28 < Xogium> so, how's that system of yours different then ? I'm honestly curious
2022-05-17T14:32:23 < jadew> well, to start, I always multiple disks
2022-05-17T14:32:40 < jadew> then, I always had multiple monitors, in the past that required multiple video cards (huge issue on linux)
2022-05-17T14:33:46 < jadew> always had issues with audio too - like no microphone input, but then I always had a dedicated audio card
2022-05-17T14:35:04 < jadew> multiple ethernet cards too on occasion
2022-05-17T14:35:28 < Xogium> ah, could be related to some of the quirks
2022-05-17T14:35:30 < jadew> whenever I ran into issues like the order of the drives changing, I could only conclude that whoever did that part of the system had a basic system
2022-05-17T14:35:39 < jadew> one drive, one monitor, one ethernet card
2022-05-17T14:36:11 < Xogium> well, to be fair you are supposed to use partuuids or uuids, not the sd* dev nodes, but yes. Its annoying
2022-05-17T14:37:39 < BrainDamage> you know that your case is just an average laptop, right?
2022-05-17T14:38:12 < BrainDamage> my laptop has multiple disks, multiple gpus, multiple monitors, and I have 2 ethernet cards, 1 wifi and 5 virtual
2022-05-17T14:38:32 < jadew> BrainDamage, that's common now, but not 10 years ago
2022-05-17T14:38:49 < BrainDamage> 10 years ago I still had a laptop with those features
2022-05-17T14:39:17 < jadew> sure, but I don't think most linux devs had that
2022-05-17T14:39:47 < jadew> otherwise the problems related to a "slightly more complex than basic" system wouldn't have been so prominent
2022-05-17T14:40:18 < BrainDamage> the problem is that the burden of setting up a system that's not the basic-default is on you
2022-05-17T14:40:36 < jadew> when udev came out, lots of people started having problems with rotating drive assignment, which resulted in impossibility to boot
2022-05-17T14:40:39 < BrainDamage> gpu was an issue tho, back then
2022-05-17T14:40:54 < Mangy_Dog> anyone happen to remember who helped me get openOCD working in eclipse maybe about a year ago?
2022-05-17T14:41:02 < BrainDamage> udev came out way before 10 years ago tho
2022-05-17T14:41:07 < Mangy_Dog> im having some trouble getting it running again...
2022-05-17T14:41:17 < jadew> well, I'm old... I just remember that it happened
2022-05-17T14:41:22 < jadew> (to me)
2022-05-17T14:41:31 < Mangy_Dog> the error
2022-05-17T14:41:32 < Mangy_Dog> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/696475688521171004/975909521350357002/unknown.png
2022-05-17T14:41:44 < Mangy_Dog> full -d out https://pastebin.com/mbnb2gj4
2022-05-17T14:43:22 < jadew> any ideas on where snap apps store their settings?
2022-05-17T14:43:26 < jadew> I want to backup mine
2022-05-17T14:44:52 < srk> ~/.config is quite common
2022-05-17T14:44:58 < jadew> for snap too?
2022-05-17T14:45:13 < jadew> I thought they store everything under snap
2022-05-17T14:45:35 < PaulFertser> Mangy_Dog: pastebin expired
2022-05-17T14:45:36 < jadew> guess not, cuz I found them
2022-05-17T14:45:42 < Mangy_Dog> o.O
2022-05-17T14:45:56 < srk> jadew: looks like ~/snap/.config :D
2022-05-17T14:46:01 < srk> if not sure you can always strace -f the app
2022-05-17T14:46:13 < jadew> I can't strace, linux refuses to boot
2022-05-17T14:46:16 < jadew> I'm on windows now
2022-05-17T14:46:40 < Mangy_Dog> https://pastebin.com/aTz3CTzJ
2022-05-17T14:46:48 < Mangy_Dog> reupped
2022-05-17T14:46:50 < Mangy_Dog> strange
2022-05-17T14:46:55 < jadew> yeah, I don't think I found the right stuff
2022-05-17T14:46:59 < Mangy_Dog> maybe a auto admin flagged it for some random reason
2022-05-17T14:47:18 < PaulFertser> New link is 404 too.
2022-05-17T14:47:27 < Mangy_Dog> wtf?
2022-05-17T14:47:36 < Xogium> pastebin is determined you not paste this :p
2022-05-17T14:47:51 < srk> futile hacking attempts 
2022-05-17T14:48:11 < Mangy_Dog> https://www.toptal.com/developers/hastebin/ewawajitun.yaml
2022-05-17T14:48:23 < Mangy_Dog> yeah pretty effing strange
2022-05-17T14:50:14 < jadew> can't find the settings... screw it
2022-05-17T14:50:29 < jadew> going in to repair it, hope it recovers
2022-05-17T14:50:44 < Mangy_Dog> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/696475688521171004/975909866562539570/unknown.png is my settings
2022-05-17T14:51:32 < PaulFertser> Mangy_Dog: if you manually connect gdb and do "load" what exactly does it say?
2022-05-17T14:51:50 < Mangy_Dog> umm
2022-05-17T14:52:42 < Mangy_Dog> not entirely sure how to do it manually
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2022-05-17T15:01:35 < Mangy_Dog> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/695271473308237985/976092093334298714/unknown.png
2022-05-17T15:01:36 < Mangy_Dog> paukl
2022-05-17T15:01:39 < Mangy_Dog> paul
2022-05-17T15:01:49 < oakyy> Trying to debug a custom PCB with STM32F769IIT6 chip on it, but am unable to program it via STM32CubeProgrammer, getting the error "Warning: Connection to device 0x451 is lost" when trying to upload the .elf file generated from STM32CubeIDE, anybody familiar with the issue? Or have any tips? 
2022-05-17T15:03:13 < PaulFertser> Mangy_Dog: you need "tar ext :3333" command before load.
2022-05-17T15:03:15 < oakyy> I've tried "mass erasing" the chip and then uploading but getting the same issue
2022-05-17T15:03:19 < Mangy_Dog> oh
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2022-05-17T15:04:41 < oakyy> Getting this in the STM32CubeProgrammer aswell "Error: Unable to get core ID"
2022-05-17T15:05:45 < Mangy_Dog> paul https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/695271473308237985/976093140010270770/unknown.png
2022-05-17T15:08:45 < jadew> it works again
2022-05-17T15:10:49 < PaulFertser> Mangy_Dog: it's interesting your elf file has .text section starting there. Usually with the right .ld script it's .isr in the beginning.
2022-05-17T15:11:33 < Mangy_Dog> im assuming im doing something wrong :D
2022-05-17T15:12:23 < PaulFertser> Mangy_Dog: and OpenOCD says you have just 64 KiB flash.
2022-05-17T15:12:31 < Mangy_Dog> nods
2022-05-17T15:12:36 < PaulFertser> Mangy_Dog: it's clearly less than 109628
2022-05-17T15:12:47 < Mangy_Dog> its a special stm32f103c8
2022-05-17T15:13:03 < Mangy_Dog> its one of the binned CBs
2022-05-17T15:13:44 < PaulFertser> Mangy_Dog: then you need to tell OpenOCD to ignore autodetected size.
2022-05-17T15:13:50 < Mangy_Dog> how?
2022-05-17T15:14:12 < Mangy_Dog> i mean what command?
2022-05-17T15:14:34 < PaulFertser> Mangy_Dog: I need to see your stm32f1x.cfg to tell
2022-05-17T15:17:20 < Mangy_Dog> https://www.toptal.com/developers/hastebin/sehahowibo.bash
2022-05-17T15:18:23 < PaulFertser> Mangy_Dog: ok, before -f target/stm32f1x.cfg you need to add -c "set FLASH_SIZE 131072"
2022-05-17T15:19:10 < Mangy_Dog> wooohoooo
2022-05-17T15:19:13 < Mangy_Dog> were in
2022-05-17T15:19:37 < Mangy_Dog> thank you :d
2022-05-17T15:19:39 < Mangy_Dog> :D
2022-05-17T15:19:40 < PaulFertser> :)
2022-05-17T15:21:00 < Mangy_Dog> now i can step through my code and see why the hell the project isnt even getting to setup() in main()
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2022-05-17T16:43:51 < fenugrec> so chinese manufacturers now just type any random keys to come up with their "company name" : https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003192075077.html   
2022-05-17T16:45:07 < mawk> lol
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2022-05-17T17:03:41 < bitmask> hello people
2022-05-17T17:07:17 < srk> naming is hard
2022-05-17T17:07:27 < srk> yo
2022-05-17T17:12:09 < bitmask> i gotta get back into coding, i gotta start workin on my game engine again
2022-05-17T17:12:15 < bitmask> bahh
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2022-05-17T17:18:07 < benishor> heheh, I have a 3d engine stalled since '98 and a 2d game waiting to be finished for 7 years or so
2022-05-17T17:18:38 < benishor> motivation reduces when you get to see what others do
2022-05-17T17:18:58  * jadew finished his 2D games back in the 90's
2022-05-17T17:19:17 < benishor> cool, got a link?
2022-05-17T17:19:34 < jadew> sure, let me find my 486 and hook it up to the internet
2022-05-17T17:20:06 < jadew> I posted some pictures a couple of years back
2022-05-17T17:20:07 < benishor> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvaegNAeLp8&ab_channel=AdrianScripc%C4%83
2022-05-17T17:20:24 < jadew> is that yours?
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2022-05-17T17:20:45 < jadew> looks nice
2022-05-17T17:20:51 < jadew> I didn't have speakers...
2022-05-17T17:21:07 < jadew> mine have no sound - maybe just a beep
2022-05-17T17:21:46 < benishor> I also had some postprocessing in place https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY9_tIlPc-k&ab_channel=AdrianScripc%C4%83
2022-05-17T17:21:46 < josuah> fenugrec: probably better that way
2022-05-17T17:21:59 < benishor> bah, need one more life to finish all projects
2022-05-17T17:22:15 < jadew> benishor, I know the feeling
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2022-05-17T17:22:26 < jadew> that's why you have to drop those that don't fulfill you
2022-05-17T17:22:39 < benishor> I pretty much like them all
2022-05-17T17:22:43 < benishor> that's why I start them
2022-05-17T17:23:05 < josuah> benishor: nice video effects!
2022-05-17T17:23:07 < benishor> like for instance 64k demo engine https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivc1VA1XyC4&ab_channel=AdrianScripc%C4%83
2022-05-17T17:23:27 < benishor> josuah: just some post processing shader
2022-05-17T17:23:45 < jadew> benishor, was that for the 64k challenge?
2022-05-17T17:23:48 < benishor> josuah: interlacing + vignette and some blur if memory serves well
2022-05-17T17:23:53 < josuah> that is the cherry on top of getting an entire rendering engine working
2022-05-17T17:24:29 < benishor> jadew: I was part of the romanian demoscene but never wrote a 64k intro. so I wanted to make a full blown intro with generated meshes, textures, animations, music
2022-05-17T17:24:44 < benishor> writing the code is one thing, building the content creation tools is another thing
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2022-05-17T17:25:08 < jadew> neat, I'm surprised that thing was that popular
2022-05-17T17:25:29 < benishor> it was popular in .ro back in 97-2k
2022-05-17T17:25:38 < benishor> we even had two demoparties, reunion demoparty and dracula demoparty
2022-05-17T17:25:43 < jadew> I thought not many people knew about it - I didn't even know how to submit stuff, but my crap was super small too, because a lot of it was written in ASM
2022-05-17T17:25:52 < benishor> although it was nowhere near nordic ones
2022-05-17T17:25:57 < jadew> the 3d stuff was pascal tho, I didn't get to porting that over
2022-05-17T17:26:20 < benishor> we've had 3d stuff written in pascal just fine
2022-05-17T17:26:36 < benishor> even the winner of reunion 99 iirc had a nice 3d engine written in free pascal
2022-05-17T17:27:02 < benishor> it featured 3d morphing, reflections, motion blur, everythign software rendered
2022-05-17T17:27:14 < jadew> nice
2022-05-17T17:27:22 < benishor> the guy went on to working in gamedev, funlabs
2022-05-17T17:27:26 < aandrew> hey jadew how's things in .ro
2022-05-17T17:27:31 < benishor> which was bought by EA, etc
2022-05-17T17:27:41 < aandrew> I have a delivery from your neck of the woods arriving today
2022-05-17T17:27:46 < benishor> aandrew: just fine, why do you ask? should we be worried about something?
2022-05-17T17:27:48 < jadew> I was just going to say that I wonder how many of the people involved with this stuff got into gaming development
2022-05-17T17:28:11 < jadew> aandrew, it's pretty chill, or at least I stopped following the news, so I'm chill
2022-05-17T17:28:12 < benishor> jadew: there wasn't really much of a choice, no other career paths if you were into animations and gfx
2022-05-17T17:28:12 < oz4ga> fenugrec: The good ol' knuckle to the keyboard file name generator
2022-05-17T17:28:28 < jadew> benishor, did you?
2022-05-17T17:28:33 < aandrew> jadew: heh yeah that's been my approach too. 
2022-05-17T17:28:37 < jadew> personally I got over graphics/gaming and into more abstract stuff
2022-05-17T17:28:44 < benishor> jadew: nah, I interviewed with funlabs but my demoscene group leader decided they were thieves
2022-05-17T17:28:55 < benishor> so we refused the offer and went to regular enterprise sw dev
2022-05-17T17:30:36 < jadew> let me see if I have any screenshots still left on the server
2022-05-17T17:30:44 < bitmask> oh people talked!
2022-05-17T17:31:47 < bitmask> have you seen the unreal 5 photorealistic demo some artist made of a japanese train station?
2022-05-17T17:31:56 < bitmask> pretty impressive
2022-05-17T17:32:08 < bitmask> semi real time
2022-05-17T17:32:16 < jadew> that whole unreal 5 thing seems incredible
2022-05-17T17:32:20 < jadew> is it just hype or something?
2022-05-17T17:32:36 < benishor> nah, it's the real deal
2022-05-17T17:32:39 < bitmask> not sure, i want to read how nanite works
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2022-05-17T17:32:52 < benishor> I only realised it's rendered when I saw sudden night
2022-05-17T17:33:01 < benishor> and then I looked at the video title better
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2022-05-17T17:33:15 < bitmask> jadew have you seen it?
2022-05-17T17:33:20 < bitmask> the vid we're talkin about
2022-05-17T17:34:16 < karlp> hrm, mouser offers "ceramic capacitors (484,540)" or "MLCCs (481,162)"  I wonder if they overlap?
2022-05-17T17:34:43 < bitmask> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2paNFnw1wRs
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2022-05-17T17:35:53 < bitmask> as ive seen mentioned, i do wonder if it would be as impressive without the realistic camera motion. i mean im sure it would be but it does make a diff
2022-05-17T17:36:02 < jadew> benishor, http://5.12.164.45/stuff/xQqBV.png
2022-05-17T17:36:17 < jadew> my stuff was more rudimentary, but I was about 12 when I wrote that
2022-05-17T17:36:22 < jadew> so... that's my excuse
2022-05-17T17:36:58 < jadew> this one was asm
2022-05-17T17:38:32 < benishor> well done, really cool
2022-05-17T17:38:42 < jadew> http://5.12.164.45/stuff/m318s.png
2022-05-17T17:38:48 < jadew> http://5.12.164.45/stuff/WWXmK.png
2022-05-17T17:38:50 < benishor> I see color keying there
2022-05-17T17:39:02 < benishor> colors suggest 8bit palette
2022-05-17T17:39:07 < jadew> yeah
2022-05-17T17:39:15 < benishor> with 0th entry as keying I suppose
2022-05-17T17:39:21 < Steffanx> I see Dave was some inspiration jadew 
2022-05-17T17:39:51 < benishor> I love platformers too
2022-05-17T17:39:52 < jadew> lol, which Dave?
2022-05-17T17:40:02 < Steffanx> At least that's what I think of when I see the guy with a red cap in the airplane
2022-05-17T17:40:08 < benishor> dangerous dave
2022-05-17T17:40:10 < Steffanx> Dangerous Dave.
2022-05-17T17:40:36 < bitmask> i wish i still had my old games, i made a mario-esque clone too
2022-05-17T17:40:38 < benishor> id software wrote 2d stuff before 3d :)
2022-05-17T17:40:44 < Steffanx> You must know this game. Its from "before my time" :P
2022-05-17T17:40:46 < jadew> never played that, but now that I know about it, I might
2022-05-17T17:40:57 < benishor> I never finished making a game so that sucks
2022-05-17T17:41:07 < bitmask> i never finished one either but loved working on them
2022-05-17T17:41:20 < benishor> actually wait, I finished one. sort of. a quick demo for some colleagues https://hq.scene.ro/tetris_js/
2022-05-17T17:41:30 < bitmask> im doing my first real dive into 3d now, well nothing in the past 3 months but i gotta start up again
2022-05-17T17:41:47 < jadew> I finished my games... but that's because I didn't have complex requirements for them
2022-05-17T17:42:22 < jadew> if the game mechanics is simple, you get that done, then you make the levels and done
2022-05-17T17:42:33 < bitmask> https://youtu.be/0TcfO2Uq6FU
2022-05-17T17:42:45 < benishor> I am ok with writing tech, but the content creation tools kill me
2022-05-17T17:42:47 < bitmask> just got gltf files loading
2022-05-17T17:43:00 < bitmask> yea i wish i could do art/sound
2022-05-17T17:43:15 < benishor> bitmask: noice
2022-05-17T17:43:22 < benishor> also vulkan. terrible
2022-05-17T17:43:28 < bitmask> heh why terrible
2022-05-17T17:43:53 < benishor> too much micromanagement for me. I'm still in the gl gang :)
2022-05-17T17:44:07 < bitmask> yea its def a lot
2022-05-17T17:44:17 < jadew> what's vulkan?
2022-05-17T17:44:32 < benishor> 3d api, like dx and opengl
2022-05-17T17:44:37 < bitmask> new graphics api, replacement for opengl
2022-05-17T17:44:41 < bitmask> well not really replacement
2022-05-17T17:44:42 < benishor> but it is much closer to the hardware
2022-05-17T17:45:09 < benishor> hence lots of higher level abstractions are gone and you need to do the grunt work
2022-05-17T17:45:10 < bitmask> it works a lot more like current graphics cards than opengl does so its more efficient
2022-05-17T17:45:27 < benishor> the advantage is you get to micromanage most things so you can optimize specific scenarios
2022-05-17T17:45:28 < bitmask> but a pain in the ass
2022-05-17T17:46:55 < bitmask> opengl has to make a lot of assumptions that you have control over in vulkan, a blessing and a curse
2022-05-17T17:48:48 < bitmask> its similar to directx 12 and apple's metal api
2022-05-17T17:51:08 < bitmask> and now that i havent used it for 3 months i prob have to relearn most of it
2022-05-17T17:51:51 < benishor> I would assume you have your abstractions in place
2022-05-17T17:53:09 < bitmask> a lot of it yes but its not complete
2022-05-17T17:53:43 < bitmask> I only used it a few months, im still learning as it is
2022-05-17T17:56:28 < bitmask> i stopped while i was about to implement physically based rendering
2022-05-17T17:56:31 < srk> first attempt at fxaa is kinda cool http://48.io/~rmarko/random/2022-05-17-165455_1581x1007_scrot.png
2022-05-17T17:57:50 < benishor> bitmask: time to go for path tracing :)
2022-05-17T17:58:33 < bitmask> i may implement some stuff for fun but its mainly for a game engine
2022-05-17T17:59:04 < bitmask> and my desktop is old as fuck
2022-05-17T18:00:03 < bitmask> gtx 980 :P
2022-05-17T18:00:14 < aandrew> my workstation is ancient - first-gen i7 with 24GB RAM
2022-05-17T18:00:18 < bitmask> not gonna have any realtime raytracing
2022-05-17T18:01:15 < bitmask> 4th gen i7
2022-05-17T18:01:16 < benishor> i7 is a good cpu
2022-05-17T18:01:27 < benishor> most likely you are not cpu but io bound
2022-05-17T18:03:40 < aandrew> yep
2022-05-17T18:03:44 < aandrew> it's a hackintosh these days
2022-05-17T18:03:51 < aandrew> mind you my laptop is pretty new
2022-05-17T18:04:10 < bitmask> i got my old 'gaming' htpc and a 2015 mbp
2022-05-17T18:04:25 < bitmask> nothing really new
2022-05-17T18:04:45 < Xogium> mine's a ryzen 7 3700x with 32 gb ddr4 ram at 3000 mhz, crap gpu just to say I've got one, 1 tb nvme
2022-05-17T18:05:28 < aandrew> (i7-1068)
2022-05-17T18:05:43 < bitmask> my htpc has 2x 10TB + 500GB SSD
2022-05-17T18:06:01 < bitmask> probably its best feature
2022-05-17T18:06:19 < bitmask> i'll have to get a nas next
2022-05-17T18:06:24 < Xogium> crunches through compiling linux kernel in about 3 minutes or so
2022-05-17T18:07:44 < benishor> I have a ryzen 5 3600 with 64G ram
2022-05-17T18:07:54 < benishor> and some nvme which help with compilation times
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2022-05-17T19:37:47 < jadew> system crashed again when I went away for 10 minutes
2022-05-17T19:38:21 < jadew> quick google on some stuff in the log points towards microcode stuff
2022-05-17T19:38:33 < jadew> (it crashed so bad, the reset button wouldn't work)
2022-05-17T19:38:39 < jadew> not sure how that is possible
2022-05-17T19:39:11 < mawk> do you have latest microcode jadew ?
2022-05-17T19:39:16 < mawk> what does lscpu say?
2022-05-17T19:39:48 < jadew> where does it say that?
2022-05-17T19:39:53 < jadew> I can't find the field
2022-05-17T19:40:02 < mawk> you see microcode version with the package manager probably
2022-05-17T19:40:35 < mawk> on debian it's dpkg -l intel-microcode
2022-05-17T19:41:02 < mawk> otherwise in dmesg you see the version too
2022-05-17T19:41:11 < jadew> intel-microcode 3.20210608.2ubuntu1
2022-05-17T19:41:24 < mawk> yeah that's the latest
2022-05-17T19:41:27 < mawk> then I don't know what else to do
2022-05-17T19:41:34 < jadew> thanks :)
2022-05-17T19:41:37 < mawk> but normally microcode gets loaded at boot only
2022-05-17T19:41:42 < mawk> not during running
2022-05-17T19:41:46 < mawk> so it's probably not that
2022-05-17T19:42:00 < jadew> well, it went to sleep I think
2022-05-17T19:42:16 < jadew> and then when I got back to it, it died
2022-05-17T19:42:25 < mawk> ah
2022-05-17T19:42:41 < mawk> microcode isn't loaded on sleep either, it's during the kernel boot
2022-05-17T19:42:49 < mawk> but crashing on sleep is not that uncommon
2022-05-17T19:43:42 < mawk> if the bios has the right options you could try to disable S3 sleep and see what happens
2022-05-17T19:45:11 < jadew> will check it out on my next reboot
2022-05-17T19:45:45 < jadew> it hasn't crashed on sleep/wake up in since I finished setting things up two weeks ago
2022-05-17T19:45:52 < jadew> and it's been running all the time since then
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2022-05-17T21:26:25 < catphish> moo
2022-05-17T21:27:02 < Steffanx> Old Macdonald had a farm
2022-05-17T21:27:05 < bitmask> ugh 6 days late on my humira, my body better not have developed antibodies to the antibodies :/
2022-05-17T21:27:52 < Steffanx> Better develop antibodies.
2022-05-17T21:27:56 < Steffanx> Then
2022-05-17T21:28:15 < catphish> bitmask: you have inflamation?
2022-05-17T21:28:23 < fenugrec> inflation
2022-05-17T21:28:29 < fenugrec> we should give humira to the economy
2022-05-17T21:28:34 < catphish> agreed
2022-05-17T21:29:01 < catphish> or we could just stop raising prices
2022-05-17T21:30:28 < bitmask> i do
2022-05-17T21:31:05 < catphish> well how annoying
2022-05-17T21:31:41 < Steffanx> More than annoying for sure
2022-05-17T21:31:54 < catphish> depends what's inflamed i suppose
2022-05-17T21:32:02 < bitmask> my cock!
2022-05-17T21:32:07 < bitmask> no its my gut :(
2022-05-17T21:32:46 < Steffanx> Lol thanks for the info
2022-05-17T21:33:13 < catphish> my cock actually is swolen at the moment
2022-05-17T21:33:24 < Steffanx> Stop watching porn 
2022-05-17T21:33:25 < catphish> had to take him to the vet last week, he's on antibiotics now
2022-05-17T21:33:27 < Steffanx> Or sexy cars.
2022-05-17T21:33:55 < catphish> some kind of infection in his toes :(
2022-05-17T21:33:59 < Steffanx> Or keep him from the chicks.
2022-05-17T21:34:03 < Steffanx> Away*
2022-05-17T21:35:07 < Steffanx> What's the use of a cock anyway? It's sooo noisy
2022-05-17T21:36:43 < Steffanx> There's one close to my work office. After hours of crowing it does get quite annoying 
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2022-05-17T21:54:49 < catphish> Steffanx: i'm not totally sure, he's noisy, he probably keeps smaller predators like rats away from hens
2022-05-17T21:54:58 < catphish> he's pretty useless really
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2022-05-17T21:55:44 < PaulFertser_> He probably motivates the hens to place eggs.
2022-05-17T21:56:13 < PaulFertser_> Also, some people eat them...
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2022-05-17T22:45:52 < kaki> hello evenings
2022-05-17T22:46:47 < Steffanx> Welcome kaki, did you give your um away?
2022-05-17T22:47:17 < kaki> gave it to zyp
2022-05-17T22:54:03 < zyp> thanks
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2022-05-17T23:04:12 < Steffanx> lol that answer was exactly what i was thinking about kaki :D
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2022-05-17T23:27:19 < catphish> hello kaki, you seem different without your um69
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--- Day changed ke touko 18 2022
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2022-05-18T00:28:56 < karlp> nice, two wildly different maths implementations, neither of them give me sane numbers: https://github.com/openwch/ch583/blob/main/EVT/EXAM/SRC/StdPeriphDriver/CH58x_adc.c#L223-L231 vs https://github.com/openwch/ch583/blob/main/Application/wristband/firmware/Demo_Firmware/StdPeriphDriver/CH58x_adc.c#L168-L172
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2022-05-18T01:18:26 < kaki> damn
2022-05-18T01:19:13 < kaki> lmao'd that nextflix movie was hilarious
2022-05-18T01:19:29 < kaki> "Senior Year"
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2022-05-18T04:01:25 < jadew> kaki, it was? I only watched it for ~5 minutes and then turned it off
2022-05-18T04:01:36 < jadew> I thought it will only get worse
2022-05-18T04:01:43 < jadew> very cringy
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2022-05-18T11:36:26 < mawk> https://youtu.be/YN5qjXmyAjU
2022-05-18T11:36:28 < mawk> french hardcore
2022-05-18T11:36:31 < mawk> a delicacy for the ears
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2022-05-18T13:09:47 < karlp> oh, you meant like gabber hardcore, not hardcore punk or anything.
2022-05-18T13:09:51 < karlp> boring...
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2022-05-18T13:14:57 < mawk> :(
2022-05-18T13:17:26 < mawk> it's hardcore techno
2022-05-18T13:17:34 < mawk> gabber is something Steffanx mixes in his basement 
2022-05-18T13:25:52 < karlp> nah, it's just bad :) 
2022-05-18T13:26:03 < karlp> I keep trying to listen to your music, but haven't gotten a winner yet.
2022-05-18T13:26:05 < karlp> one day maybe :)
2022-05-18T13:29:52 < mawk> there's a lot of things in my library
2022-05-18T13:29:56 < mawk> what do you like in electronic music
2022-05-18T13:30:59 < karlp> most stuff that isn't your hardcore gabber shit.
2022-05-18T13:31:26 < karlp> we don't need to find something _now_ though :)
2022-05-18T13:31:57 < mawk> too late 
2022-05-18T13:32:00 < mawk> https://youtu.be/ryjsQwcY-60
2022-05-18T13:32:05 < mawk> there's no kick in it
2022-05-18T13:32:15 < mawk> so it cannot be furthest from hardcore and gabber 
2022-05-18T13:32:40 < mawk> I mean, no nice distorted kick; there's still a kick as always
2022-05-18T13:57:26 < karlp> lol. is that algorithmically generated generic club music? :)
2022-05-18T13:57:41 < karlp> even the video
2022-05-18T14:10:43 < josuah> AI quality grade
2022-05-18T14:11:30 < josuah> AI-generated artwork: Ask for $x, get $x, exactly. No surprise. No soul no spirit to it. Just $x.
2022-05-18T14:12:25 < josuah> "AI is wonderful, we can generate anything we want!" <- and nothing more :)
2022-05-18T14:13:12 < josuah> I wonder what will this be like after machine learning made music gets posted everywhere over youtube, and feed machine learning music over again
2022-05-18T14:15:20 < josuah> there would be market selling  video rushes with a purity index like copper or tin: video recordings certified 99.8% human-made content for the purpose of feeding machine learning
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2022-05-18T15:56:02 < karlp> lol, scrolling lcsc because their part columns aren't as well filled in, so I'm opening lots of datasheets to check,
2022-05-18T15:56:22 < karlp> opamps with 350Mhz GBW, that use more power _in shutdown_ than what I'm budgeting for active use :)
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2022-05-18T16:22:50 < karlp> mawk: here's what I've been listening too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epbNtzXqKzo&t=2680s
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2022-05-18T16:33:48 < karlp> feck, $40 shipping for lcsc if I want it remotely promptly
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2022-05-18T17:02:16 < specing> karlp: at that point you could have it done locally
2022-05-18T17:06:09 < karlp> done what?
2022-05-18T17:06:22 < karlp> this is parts, not jlcpcb boards
2022-05-18T17:09:12 < specing> ah
2022-05-18T17:13:27 < qyx> open superparts.is and do shopping
2022-05-18T17:13:48 < qyx> black friday for stm32 maybe
2022-05-18T17:40:20 < karlp> superparts.is?
2022-05-18T17:46:16 < jpa-> your new webshop
2022-05-18T17:58:01  * karlp waits for the domain to be assigned...
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2022-05-18T18:54:02 < bitmask> i need a new IDE, xcode's intellisense/code completion is sooooo slow. they can't all be like that can they? its borderline useless
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2022-05-18T18:58:20 < mawk> this sounds like metal karlp 
2022-05-18T19:20:50 < karlp> is that a problem? :)
2022-05-18T19:25:57 < mawk> I never listened to it
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2022-05-18T21:29:42 < Steffanx> There is not really basement here mawk. 
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2022-05-18T21:30:32 < bitmask> hmm i think i should learn how cmake works
2022-05-18T21:31:03 < bitmask> clion is much faster than xcode
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2022-05-18T21:46:15 < catphish> morning!
2022-05-18T21:46:28 < catphish> kaki: workshop day. mounted charger: https://photos.app.goo.gl/BDznY1hqWRzLWRFb9
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2022-05-18T22:05:14 < upgrdman> anyone used NextPCB?
2022-05-18T22:08:18 < Mangy_Dog> Any thoughts... My voltage readings off by around 2-6mV Any thoughts? return ( (3.3f* (value / 4096.0f)) * ((300000.0f + 1000000.0f)/1000000.0f ) );  just resistor accuracy?
2022-05-18T22:09:22 < Mangy_Dog> value = gpio analogue reading
2022-05-18T22:10:08 < kraiskil> 6mV out of 3V3? that's 0.2%? 
2022-05-18T22:12:12 < Mangy_Dog> wait umm
2022-05-18T22:12:15 < Mangy_Dog> 600mv :/
2022-05-18T22:12:17 < Mangy_Dog> mV
2022-05-18T22:12:41 < kraiskil> oh, that's a bit worrying already :D
2022-05-18T22:12:51 < qyx> 300k resistor?
2022-05-18T22:12:57 < Mangy_Dog> ie 4V reading as 3.4-3.8
2022-05-18T22:13:09 < Mangy_Dog> yeah 300000 and 1000000
2022-05-18T22:13:13 < Mangy_Dog> devider
2022-05-18T22:13:29 < qyx> a bit unusual value
2022-05-18T22:13:34 < qyx> also, too high
2022-05-18T22:13:46 < qyx> how does your analog part look like?
2022-05-18T22:13:57 < Mangy_Dog> ?
2022-05-18T22:13:59 < qyx> is your value consistently low?
2022-05-18T22:14:29 < Mangy_Dog> value consistancy is a little jumpy but way way way down the decimals...
2022-05-18T22:14:35 < qyx> are you feeding output of the divider directly to the ADC input?
2022-05-18T22:14:52 < Mangy_Dog> yes but has a 0.1uf cap
2022-05-18T22:15:00 < Mangy_Dog> to smooth it
2022-05-18T22:15:14 < qyx> what does your DMM say?
2022-05-18T22:16:19 < qyx> also, off by one error
2022-05-18T22:16:29 < qyx> why are you dividing by 4096?
2022-05-18T22:16:38 < qyx> (but that's unrelated)
2022-05-18T22:17:15 < qyx> ipcheck your divider output with a FMM
2022-05-18T22:17:29 < qyx> and BDDA too if it is really 3v3
2022-05-18T22:17:33 < Mangy_Dog> 3.883 quite far down the sys (battery voltage) line
2022-05-18T22:17:40 < qyx> *VDDA
2022-05-18T22:17:40 < Mangy_Dog> but when the projects off its stble 4v
2022-05-18T22:18:14 < Mangy_Dog> 4096? the analoge reading range ?
2022-05-18T22:18:31 < qyx> i would say it is 0-4095
2022-05-18T22:18:38 < Mangy_Dog> hmm iok
2022-05-18T22:19:29 < qyx> I don't follow, your DMM reads 3.883 V?
2022-05-18T22:20:01 < Mangy_Dog> when the project is running but 4v when off
2022-05-18T22:20:10 < Mangy_Dog> so theres some loss from the draw
2022-05-18T22:20:24 < Mangy_Dog> the project is reading 3.74
2022-05-18T22:20:32 < qyx> I suspect you are measuring it during ru time
2022-05-18T22:20:35 < Mangy_Dog> maybe its close enough
2022-05-18T22:20:40 < Mangy_Dog> yes
2022-05-18T22:20:41 < Mangy_Dog> i am
2022-05-18T22:20:56 < qyx> it may be totally legit
2022-05-18T22:21:28 < qyx> if your current draw is not constant, DMM reads something near the aberage
2022-05-18T22:21:36 < Mangy_Dog> yeah 
2022-05-18T22:22:00 < qyx> your ADC reads sometjhing similar, depending on the RC filter
2022-05-18T22:22:09 < Mangy_Dog> maybe i should just add 200mV to the number as a rough tuning
2022-05-18T22:22:28 < Mangy_Dog> its meant to be a battery level reading
2022-05-18T22:22:38 < qyx> so if you have current spikes in the measured rail causing voltage drops, you may catch them
2022-05-18T22:22:40 < Mangy_Dog> and software switch off at 3v at the battery
2022-05-18T22:22:53 < Mangy_Dog> nods
2022-05-18T22:23:06 < qyx> tune your cap value a bit
2022-05-18T22:23:23 < qyx> hm
2022-05-18T22:23:25 < Mangy_Dog> its 0.1uf already
2022-05-18T22:23:45 < qyx> also, are you feeding stm32 with 3v3?
2022-05-18T22:24:01 < Mangy_Dog> should be
2022-05-18T22:24:11 < Mangy_Dog> pretty stabley 
2022-05-18T22:24:17 < Mangy_Dog> tons of caps on that
2022-05-18T22:24:27 < qyx> what regulator are you using? what happens if the nattery voltage is 3v0?
2022-05-18T22:25:09 < Mangy_Dog> dmm says 3.298 so id say thats stable :D
2022-05-18T22:25:21 < Mangy_Dog> tps61023 i think
2022-05-18T22:25:23 < Mangy_Dog> off the top of my head
2022-05-18T22:25:44 < qyx> buck-boost?
2022-05-18T22:25:48 < qyx> then it is okish
2022-05-18T22:25:54 < Mangy_Dog> nods
2022-05-18T22:26:14 < Mangy_Dog> but at 3v it reads 2.68 on the adc
2022-05-18T22:26:54 < Mangy_Dog> but i read 2.8 on the dmm
2022-05-18T22:27:10 < Mangy_Dog> this is on the SYS line not the 3.3V line
2022-05-18T22:27:44 < Mangy_Dog> 3.3v line reads 3.27
2022-05-18T22:27:50 < Mangy_Dog> when feeding 3v
2022-05-18T22:29:54 < kraiskil> (2.8-2.68)/3.3 = 3.6%. That could be the resistor accuracy already...
2022-05-18T22:30:13 < Mangy_Dog> nods
2022-05-18T22:30:16 < kraiskil> no, wait.. never mind :D
2022-05-18T22:30:32 < Mangy_Dog> most resisters ate 1% arent they?
2022-05-18T22:30:32 < kraiskil> for ADC accuracy its a bit off...
2022-05-18T22:30:43 < Mangy_Dog> are
2022-05-18T22:31:03 < kraiskil> the 2.8 on the DMM should be fairly accurate :)
2022-05-18T22:31:34 < kraiskil> so its the 0.12V error DMM vs ADC that is the the problem?
2022-05-18T22:32:24 < kraiskil> and yea, 1% is plausible for bulk resistors
2022-05-18T22:32:57 < Mangy_Dog> i trust the dmm
2022-05-18T22:33:10 < Mangy_Dog> its a rather expensive uni-t (expensive by my standards)
2022-05-18T22:33:28 < Mangy_Dog> funnily my hantek ociliscope is less accurate for voltage reading
2022-05-18T22:33:39 < Mangy_Dog> that seems to have a slightly wider innacuracy
2022-05-18T22:34:25 < zyp> scopes aren't designed for voltage reading
2022-05-18T22:34:44 < zyp> a cheap multimeter should beat an expensive scope on voltage accuracy
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2022-05-18T22:36:12 < Mangy_Dog> good to know
2022-05-18T22:36:12 < Mangy_Dog> :D
2022-05-18T22:36:32 < kraiskil> I'm confused, where is the 200mV-600mV inaccuracy :)
2022-05-18T22:36:49 < kraiskil> if I read correctly, the DMM reads 2.8V, the ADC 2.68?
2022-05-18T22:36:56 < Mangy_Dog> i might have mistaded at first
2022-05-18T22:37:03 < kraiskil> :p
2022-05-18T22:37:17 < Mangy_Dog> but its inaccurate from what the voltage being sent by the psu
2022-05-18T22:37:23 < Mangy_Dog> but yeah as current draws voltage drops
2022-05-18T22:37:30 < Mangy_Dog> so i need to take that into account with this battery reader
2022-05-18T22:37:36 < kraiskil> right
2022-05-18T22:37:39 < qyx> wat
2022-05-18T22:37:42 < qyx> ok
2022-05-18T22:37:51 < Mangy_Dog> qyx?
2022-05-18T22:38:17 < Mangy_Dog> qyx tbh
2022-05-18T22:38:18 < qyx> you said measuring the divider with a dmm says 2.8 V
2022-05-18T22:38:29 < qyx> and not the psu voltage setpoint
2022-05-18T22:38:29 < Mangy_Dog> not the devider
2022-05-18T22:38:31 < Mangy_Dog> the SYS
2022-05-18T22:38:46 < Mangy_Dog> which is psu voltage via the battery mangment chip
2022-05-18T22:38:55 < Mangy_Dog> but
2022-05-18T22:38:57 < qyx> yeah i put to the divider
2022-05-18T22:39:04 < qyx> input
2022-05-18T22:39:24 < Mangy_Dog> i do have one issue with the sys side of the power circuit :/ i need more caps
2022-05-18T22:41:00 < Mangy_Dog> >.<
2022-05-18T22:41:05 < Mangy_Dog> dmm says 2.13
2022-05-18T22:41:12 < Mangy_Dog> by the cap that feeds to the gpio
2022-05-18T22:41:18 < upgrdman> math ee pros: i have some FFT/DFT questions, hope you can help. if my input is in volts, and the waveform is: (1kHz sine wave, 1Vpeak) + (100Hz sine wave, 0.25Vpeak) ... the units of the FFT are in volts (correct?) and I should expect to the FFT to show 1V in the 1kHz bin, and 0.25V in the 100Hz bin (correct?)
2022-05-18T22:41:48 < zyp> Mangy_Dog, remember that the multimeter load will also probably affect it
2022-05-18T22:41:53 < zyp> since it's so high impedance
2022-05-18T22:42:09 < upgrdman> (and ~0V in all other bins, of course there will be some noise and some bleed into nearby bins if the sample count is < infinity)
2022-05-18T22:42:09 < Mangy_Dog> hmm good point
2022-05-18T22:43:14 < zyp> upgrdman, sounds reasonable to me
2022-05-18T22:45:03 < upgrdman> zyp, ok. cool. and afaik, most people want to look at power, not amplitude, so i assume that means you would take those FFT outputs, and "power = sqrt(volts^2)" for each bin? and since the input is in volts, power would be in watts ?
2022-05-18T22:46:16 < zyp> I'm not an expert on this, but i'd expect output values to match input values
2022-05-18T22:46:29 < zyp> i.e. put in volts in time domain, get out volts in frequency domain
2022-05-18T22:46:59 < upgrdman> sure
2022-05-18T22:47:31 < upgrdman> but to see the power of the freq domain, when the input is in volts, i assume i would transform that bins as i mentioned?
2022-05-18T22:47:54 < zyp> probably
2022-05-18T22:47:59 < upgrdman> ok
2022-05-18T22:48:40 < zyp> wait, wat
2022-05-18T22:48:47 < zyp> why sqrt(volts^2)?
2022-05-18T22:49:41 < upgrdman> if i understand this correctly: http://www.dspguide.com/ch2/2.htm
2022-05-18T22:49:54 < upgrdman> hmm
2022-05-18T22:50:05 < upgrdman> well, i guess thats the equation for standard deviation
2022-05-18T22:50:23 < upgrdman> shit. nevermind, so power = (volts^2) , right?
2022-05-18T22:50:41 < zyp> ohm's law states P = U^2 * R
2022-05-18T22:50:58 < upgrdman> ya, so unit load yields u^2
2022-05-18T22:51:01 < upgrdman> cool
2022-05-18T22:51:14 < zyp> R I mean
2022-05-18T22:51:17 < zyp> divided by R
2022-05-18T22:51:28 < zyp> and yes
2022-05-18T22:52:39 < zyp> hence why you use 10log10() to calculate a power factor in dB and 20log10() for a voltage factor
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2022-05-18T22:53:19 < upgrdman> FFT yields "real" and "imaginary" volts... does it matter if you "real^2  +  imag^2" or "(real+imag)^2"
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2022-05-18T23:01:16 < zyp> you probably want to multiply volts with the complex conjugate of volts
2022-05-18T23:03:01 < zyp> i.e. (real + i imag) * (real - i imag), which is equivalent to real^2 + imag^2
2022-05-18T23:04:00 < zyp> another way of thinking of it is that you want to square the magnitude, and the magnitude is sqrt(real^2 + imag^2)
2022-05-18T23:04:15 < upgrdman> is this understanding of converting to decibels correct: 1V = 0dBV, 0.1V = -20dBV, 0.01V = -40dBV, etc. 1W = 0dBW, 0.1W = -10dBW, 0.01W = -20dBW, etc. 0.001W = 0dBm, 0.0001W = -10dBm, etc. ?
2022-05-18T23:04:56 < zyp> why negative?
2022-05-18T23:05:24 < upgrdman> wikipedia says dBV is "relative to 1 volt"
2022-05-18T23:05:27 < zyp> ah, duh
2022-05-18T23:05:37 < upgrdman> so <1V should be neg, >1V should be pos?
2022-05-18T23:05:48 < zyp> yes, that looks correct
2022-05-18T23:05:52 < upgrdman> cool
2022-05-18T23:06:35 < upgrdman> this is working surprising well so far. a few issues but it worked on first rev :) http://farrellf.com/temp/stm32f7_12_channel_oscilloscope.jpg
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2022-05-18T23:24:24 < BrainDamage> cordyceps
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2022-05-18T23:36:25 < upgrdman> god damn. my logitech g602 has an intermittent left mouse button. bought this mouse ~5 years ago, but ~never used it. now it's out of warranty and i think i may have used this mouse maybe 100 hours max.
2022-05-18T23:36:50 < upgrdman> im not even a gamer, not doing anything major with this mouse. how the fuck is the button already intermittent
2022-05-18T23:37:10 < upgrdman> i guess altium + eclipse + cubeide is super stressful of logitech mice :/
2022-05-18T23:43:28 < Steffanx> Must have been a "Monday morning" product 
2022-05-18T23:43:44 < upgrdman> i guess so :(
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2022-05-18T23:43:56 < kaki> hello early
2022-05-18T23:44:21 < Steffanx> Welcome back mr sauna
2022-05-18T23:46:12 < BrainDamage> kaki: https://inktank.fi/sweating-war-finnish-wwii-soldiers-sauna/
2022-05-18T23:47:12 < kaki> soviets build saunas too
2022-05-18T23:51:18 < kaki> the story is they went to sauna when it was -40c outside washing off film of skin oils and when they came out they died
2022-05-18T23:52:30 < kaki> the theory is skin oils were blocking evaporation from skin
--- Day changed to touko 19 2022
2022-05-19T00:00:01 < kaki> it could be poor clothing for -40c and going to sauna was just the hail mary for those solders
2022-05-19T00:02:24 < kaki> when you build sauna BrainDamage?
2022-05-19T00:02:40 < kaki> it makes you feel fresh when it's hot and moist weather
2022-05-19T00:03:12 < BrainDamage> I've been to both wet and dry saunas, I much prefer the dry ones
2022-05-19T00:03:55 < kaki> by dry and wet you mean steam and normal sauna as wet and infrared as dry one?
2022-05-19T00:04:59 < kaki> also there is turkish bathhouse type of thing with 40c or so but humidity at saturation
2022-05-19T00:07:22 < BrainDamage> yes, infrared the dry one
2022-05-19T00:07:35 < BrainDamage> tried turkish bath too, felt a bit suffocating
2022-05-19T00:07:54 < BrainDamage> the irony is that the one time I went to turkey the air outside was worse than a turkish bath
2022-05-19T00:08:03 < kaki> :)
2022-05-19T00:08:11 < BrainDamage> 42°C and 98% humidity
2022-05-19T00:08:23 < kaki> dangerous
2022-05-19T00:08:37 < BrainDamage> yeah, you could only stay outside for limited periods
2022-05-19T00:09:15 < kaki> that is in that range of weather conditions that can kill
2022-05-19T00:10:08 < BrainDamage> everything, even the cheapest venues were AC equipped
2022-05-19T00:13:18 < catphish> kaki: i demand that you appreciate my battery charger https://photos.app.goo.gl/BDznY1hqWRzLWRFb9
2022-05-19T00:14:16 < kaki> you got it fixed?
2022-05-19T00:14:22 < kaki> tranceivers
2022-05-19T00:14:44 < catphish> the BMS?
2022-05-19T00:15:51 < kaki> no
2022-05-19T00:16:08 < kaki> canbus tranceivers supposedly fried
2022-05-19T00:18:50 < catphish> kaki: oh, no. i didn't actually use that charger in my car, i was trying to repurpose it as an off-board charge for an electric jetski for someone else when it died, i didn't bother to investigate further, told them to buy a new one
2022-05-19T00:20:52 < kaki> ah
2022-05-19T00:21:40 < kaki> installation looks legit
2022-05-19T00:22:46 < kaki> as soon as that 12v ground is propperly tied to chassis
2022-05-19T00:28:51 < kaki> I assume small 4 cables are for HV
2022-05-19T00:29:03 < kaki> big cables for 12v
2022-05-19T00:29:05 < kaki> ?
2022-05-19T00:34:11 < kaki> where is connection for comms?
2022-05-19T00:34:49 < kaki> ah I see it now between mains and hv a circular connector
2022-05-19T00:35:27 < zyp> does it do both HV and 12V?
2022-05-19T00:36:23 < kaki> I think it's usually the case
2022-05-19T00:36:34 < kaki> charger and DC-DC combined
2022-05-19T00:40:29 < catphish> kaki: yes, 4-way cable is HV battery (2 wires for charging, 2 for DC-DC, they're tied together at the battery, 2 large individual cables are 12V from the DCDC converter
2022-05-19T00:41:53 < catphish> it now has to be ripped out again so i can powder coat the frame
2022-05-19T00:42:15 < kaki> the frame for charger or the whole car?
2022-05-19T00:42:19 < kaki> :O
2022-05-19T00:42:25 < catphish> the frame for the charger :)
2022-05-19T00:42:27 < kaki> how is the box?
2022-05-19T00:42:44 < kaki> did it go to oven yet?
2022-05-19T00:43:10 < catphish> this is the first part i've welded myself, i had the power a bit too low and the metal pooled on the surface a bit, but overall i'm happy i did it
2022-05-19T00:43:50 < catphish> the box is at the powder coating company, dropped off on friday, they said it would be about a week
2022-05-19T00:44:12 < catphish> so he plan is to pick that up first thing next week and install
2022-05-19T00:44:18 < kaki> if it's looking like a solid turd add power
2022-05-19T00:44:45 < zyp> kaki, right, that seems to be the case for my cars too, never looked into it
2022-05-19T00:44:56 < catphish> yeah, looks like surface turd
2022-05-19T00:45:17 < kaki> if it looks like diahrea check gas flow and that the surface is prepaired (no zinc)
2022-05-19T00:45:41 < catphish> looks like nice round turd :)
2022-05-19T00:46:20 < catphish> definitely not enough power, but i'm told it penetrated enough to make a strong joint
2022-05-19T00:46:29 < catphish> i'll keep learning :)
2022-05-19T00:46:30 < kaki> if weld is not constant but kinda paf paf paf with pauses add wire
2022-05-19T00:46:48 < zyp> speaking of zinc, I just got offered like a hundred kilos of scrap galvanized rails the other day
2022-05-19T00:47:02 < kaki> if there is hole where you pointed the glue gun decrease power
2022-05-19T00:47:12 < catphish> kaki: lol indeed
2022-05-19T00:47:27 < zyp> not sure that's what I want to practice welding on, but they're practically free so I said I'll take it all
2022-05-19T00:47:45 < kaki> shelves
2022-05-19T00:47:49 < kaki> a building
2022-05-19T00:47:55 < kaki> a bridge
2022-05-19T00:48:21 < zyp> yeah yeah, but the first thing I need to build is legs for the welding table
2022-05-19T00:48:30 < zyp> and I'm planning to weld those :p
2022-05-19T00:48:35 < kaki> yes
2022-05-19T00:49:20 < kaki> don't breathe that zinc smoke
2022-05-19T00:51:59 < kaki> gives you headache
2022-05-19T01:04:44 < zyp> by the way, how much is a bottle of argon over there?
2022-05-19T01:05:33 < kaki> a lot
2022-05-19T01:05:51 < kaki> lemme check
2022-05-19T01:09:07 < kaki> rent 3years for 20litre bottle was 190eur with special discounts
2022-05-19T01:09:29 < kaki> gas fill 160eur iirc
2022-05-19T01:11:10 < kaki> rent without discounts is like 300eur
2022-05-19T01:16:01 < zyp> hmm, not too bad
2022-05-19T01:16:42 < zyp> I believe rent here is more, so I'm planning to buy a bottle
2022-05-19T01:23:26 < kaki> tig goes throught those bottles like nothing
2022-05-19T01:27:49 < zyp> I can buy an 11L bottle for 300€ or so, and trade it in with a full for about 100€
2022-05-19T01:28:26 < zyp> except they're sold out at the moment and all the other options costs more :p
2022-05-19T01:29:35 < zyp> 530€ for a 20L bottle, 170€ for a trade in
2022-05-19T01:30:46 < kaki> that 190eur was 3year ago btw.
2022-05-19T01:31:11 < kaki> 160e fill with discounts was this spring
2022-05-19T01:32:01 < zyp> I'm not sure what renting costs nowadays, I rented an argonmix bottle like 12 years ago
2022-05-19T01:32:29 < zyp> probably somewhere between 100€-200€ per year
2022-05-19T01:33:49 < zyp> but I figure I'm not gonna weld enough to justify renting
2022-05-19T01:37:30 < zyp> there's some guy a couple of hours away selling 8L bottles for 175€ as well, which is the absolutely cheapest option for buying a bottle that I've found, but I'm not sure I can get that filled anywhere once it's empty, and then it's not a good deal anymore
2022-05-19T01:39:30 < kaki> same guy
2022-05-19T01:39:40 < kaki> has probs some transfer system
2022-05-19T01:40:23 < zyp> maybe, but the distance makes it a bit inconvenient
2022-05-19T01:42:42 < zyp> then again, it's so much cheaper than everything else that it could justify owning two bottles
2022-05-19T01:48:40 < zyp> hmm
2022-05-19T01:48:50 < zyp> «some hours» means 3.5, each way :p
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2022-05-19T12:16:07 < jpa-> why is my vtable messed up
2022-05-19T12:16:35 < jpa-> almost all methods point to the destructor instead of the actual method
2022-05-19T12:19:32 < jpa-> hmm.. it was due to missing return statements in bool functions
2022-05-19T12:19:41 < jpa-> weird that it would cause them not to go into the vtbl
2022-05-19T12:20:27 < benishor> do you have any optimisation on?
2022-05-19T12:22:12 < jpa-> seems to be weird effect of missing virtual specifier in inherited class
2022-05-19T12:23:44 < jpa-> class Parent { virtual bool method() = 0; };  class Child: public Parent { bool method(); }   bool Child::method() { /* Forget to return here */ }    and weirdly the method is callable from Child class but calling through Parent* fails because the vtable entry points to ~Child() instead
2022-05-19T12:26:16 < zyp> wat
2022-05-19T12:26:25 < benishor> I guess that is undefined behaviour
2022-05-19T12:26:32 < benishor> not returning a value
2022-05-19T12:26:54 < benishor> but you seem to be ignoring a lot of your compiler warnings. and I don't see you using override keyword :)
2022-05-19T12:29:13 < benishor> (I suppose you use a standard >= 11)
2022-05-19T12:29:38 < jpa-> yeah, probably undefined behavior, though on most architectures bools are returned in registers so the simple compilation would return just garbage value
2022-05-19T12:30:21 < jpa-> the method implementation was still missing which is why i wasn't very concerned about the warnings either, but then some piece of code ended up calling the unimplemented method and instead of just doing nothing or crashing there, it destructed the object
2022-05-19T12:30:47 < benishor> funky
2022-05-19T12:31:33 < benishor> it would have taken me some time to catch that
2022-05-19T12:32:24 < zyp> which compiler and optimization level? I'm trying your code on godbolt and am not seeing it
2022-05-19T12:34:03 < jpa-> https://godbolt.org/z/4YKE96bKc    haha, it is assembling it into literally empty function, no return statement at all
2022-05-19T12:34:47 < zyp> so it's not the vtable that's wrong, it's the destructor being located right after the method? :)
2022-05-19T12:34:49 < jpa-> and the empty function probably just happened to be right before ~Foo() in flash, which is why pointer to empty function became pointer to destructor
2022-05-19T12:34:53 < jpa-> yeah
2022-05-19T12:35:29 < jpa-> i'll be taking "missing return statement" much more seriously now
2022-05-19T12:35:38 < jpa-> instead of just returning garbage, it falls through to next function :D
2022-05-19T12:36:04 < jpa-> with -O0 it does return
2022-05-19T12:36:10 < jpa-> i guess not returning is smaller
2022-05-19T12:38:01 < zyp> looks like clang does the same
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2022-05-19T12:49:48 < karlp> lol, that's fun
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2022-05-19T12:57:42 < benishor> jpa-: clang treats missing return statement as error out of the box :)
2022-05-19T12:58:13 < karlp> zyp literally just said that clang is doing the same thing?
2022-05-19T12:58:20 < karlp> do you have -Werror benishor?
2022-05-19T12:58:52 < zyp> just warning:
2022-05-19T12:58:53 < zyp> <source>:14:1: warning: non-void function does not return a value [-Wreturn-type]
2022-05-19T12:58:56 < zyp> }
2022-05-19T12:58:58 < zyp> ^
2022-05-19T13:00:15 < benishor> yeah, sorry, pebcak
2022-05-19T13:01:14 < benishor> I actually had a different error which I looked over
2022-05-19T13:01:27 < benishor> I copy pasted jpa's code as is and it was missing a ;  on Child class end
2022-05-19T13:01:39 < benishor> gcc ignored that but clang treated it as error
2022-05-19T13:02:47 < benishor> actually now g++ seems to issue that error too. seems like I should get some sleep
2022-05-19T14:39:29 < mawk> karlp https://youtu.be/7SIRYnm-4uI it's an instrumental only track
2022-05-19T14:39:34 < mawk> very good
2022-05-19T14:40:01 < mawk> it's not even french
2022-05-19T14:40:06 < mawk> at least I don't think 
2022-05-19T15:01:44 < benishor> that reminds me a bit of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xWmLC47JLM&ab_channel=TwistedMusicUK
2022-05-19T15:05:16 < benishor> goes hand in gand with https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efc7WLCVWmw&ab_channel=TranceClassics
2022-05-19T15:05:25 < benishor> journeys in themselves
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2022-05-19T15:48:15 < mawk> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-06WnS069bU
2022-05-19T15:48:24 < mawk> there's a real woman singing and everything
2022-05-19T15:51:32 < jpa-> http://paste.dy.fi/eoq/plain   huh, wrote the CRC code from the definition and it almost worked on the first go.. except wasted half an hour before i figured out the need for endianess conversion
2022-05-19T15:51:52 < jpa-> usually when i try to do CRC it never works
2022-05-19T15:53:57 < mawk> my approach to figuring out a crc code is bruteforcing every polynomial possible until I find something that matches with the examples in the doc
2022-05-19T15:54:14 < mawk> and every parameter like flipping input, outputs, etc
2022-05-19T15:56:10 < jpa-> yeah.. here the example was 512 x 0xFF, but that didn't point out endianess problems :)
2022-05-19T15:56:34 < jpa-> fortunately for reading from SD card i could just check what it gives for various data blocks
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2022-05-19T16:32:03 < benishor> I only ran into crc16 instances
2022-05-19T16:32:13 < benishor> and those pretty much all fit
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2022-05-19T16:32:43 < benishor> when they don't work from the first try, I use https://crccalc.com/ to check myself
2022-05-19T16:33:09 < benishor> very useful little tool
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--- Day changed pe touko 20 2022
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2022-05-20T00:35:47 < karlp> so, SPE jacks are ~same size as vertical flag usb-c connectors, but a bit lower profile.
2022-05-20T00:35:58 < karlp> but you need unobtainium parts to use it.
2022-05-20T00:37:21 < karlp> I like the idea of it, but... it sounds like it can replace profinet and it's absurd costs, but erplacing rs485 seems a little less likely.
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2022-05-20T01:42:10 < zyp> what absurd costs? doesn't SPE just replace the physical layer, which is the cheap part of profinet?
2022-05-20T01:51:22 < karlp> I mean the costs of the profinet connectors and the licensed purple cables and the stacks.
2022-05-20T01:52:06 < karlp> SPE with PoDL soudns nice though, 10M ethernet, power, just those two pins...
2022-05-20T01:52:35 < karlp> but still feels a long way off.  need MCUs with network stacks and xMII interfaces now,
2022-05-20T01:56:58 < zyp> are the connectors special? the profinet I've seen looked like plain RJ45
2022-05-20T01:57:06 < zyp> or are you thinking of profibus?
2022-05-20T01:57:10 < karlp> oh, yeah, profibus sorry
2022-05-20T01:57:29 < karlp> enormous custom bullshits
2022-05-20T01:57:59 < zyp> that's just some d-sub something with built-in tees in the plug, isn't it?
2022-05-20T02:03:00 < karlp> sure, but it's still crazy expensive https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Phoenix-Contact/2708245?qs=HMBjIV1xS%252B9%2FWKqcPx6jNA%3D%3D
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2022-05-20T02:03:25 < karlp> or have moelx https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Molex/1201030005?qs=Hcj0KPenP1Q7wA0ZZRRFFQ%3D%3D
2022-05-20T02:03:39 < zyp> are SPE plugs or cables much cheaper? :)
2022-05-20T02:04:01 < karlp> spe plugs are in the ~$2 cheapest, phoenix contact, yeah.
2022-05-20T02:04:04 < zyp> also, which kind of SPE? last I checked there were like a handful of competing standards
2022-05-20T02:04:08 < karlp> still not usb-c level,
2022-05-20T02:04:13 < karlp> the jacks are the same, aiui,
2022-05-20T02:04:23 < karlp> and there's only really two, t1l and t1s?
2022-05-20T02:04:30 < karlp> or at least, I'm only looking at those two.
2022-05-20T02:04:34 < zyp> nope, totally incompatible
2022-05-20T02:04:46 < zyp> I'm talking about connector standards
2022-05-20T02:05:19 < karlp> yeah, I thought the connectors were the same, but fuck em if they went all over the shop
2022-05-20T02:05:54 < zyp> hang on, let me dig the logs, I've commented on this before
2022-05-20T02:06:14 < karlp> oh shit, so this one: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/phoenix-contact/1163798/13694250 is for what, "SPE" 
2022-05-20T02:07:12 < karlp> oh right, fuck em, https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Amphenol-Commercial-Products/MSPE-J2L0-B00?qs=e8oIoAS2J1QiQnwI3t%2FVjA%3D%3D is totally different
2022-05-20T02:08:59 < karlp> oh, and I'd forgotten the single pair ethernet at gigabit rates that also exists.
2022-05-20T02:09:03 < karlp> fuck all of this right off,
2022-05-20T02:09:06 < karlp> done enough of this for one day.
2022-05-20T02:09:24 < karlp> spent too much of the day juggling mating lengths on pin headers vs board space and stock levels.
2022-05-20T02:09:27 < karlp> so over it :)
2022-05-20T02:11:53 < zyp> hmm, not finding it
2022-05-20T02:12:01 < zyp> maybe it was on telegram
2022-05-20T02:12:17 < catphish> morning
2022-05-20T02:13:33 < karlp> ok, it's IEC 63171-1 vs IEC 63171-6
2022-05-20T02:13:39 < karlp> and those are "buildings" and "industrial"
2022-05-20T02:13:49 < zyp> yes, and a bunch of other 63171-x
2022-05-20T02:14:05 < karlp> sounds like the committee just gave up and said, "fuck it, let the market work it out, fuck stndards"
2022-05-20T02:14:16 < zyp> found the convo, look at telegram, dec 29
2022-05-20T02:14:33 < zyp> quoting you: «yeah, it looks like garbage still right now.
2022-05-20T02:16:18 < karlp> https://www.single-pair-ethernet.com/en/artikel/single-pair-ethernet-standardization-landscape
2022-05-20T02:16:31 < karlp> well, update: may 19, still looks like garbge, but at least connector prices are coming down.
2022-05-20T02:17:16 < karlp> amphenol is onboard with harting t1 style at least, 
2022-05-20T02:17:16 < BrainDamage> just route it over dc barrel jack
2022-05-20T02:17:31 < karlp> it does power over data line anyway right, so standard :)
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2022-05-20T03:00:19 < catphish> today i realised i have a new car problem, my cabin air blower, it's a DC motor, and there's 3 x 12V input, one is selected depending on desired fan speed
2022-05-20T03:01:00 < catphish> originally 2 of these were fed via resistors, but i've broken the resistors and reused the air-cooled space they previously occupied, so now i need a pwm solution
2022-05-20T03:03:50 < specing> no blower = no problem
2022-05-20T03:04:12 < catphish> i unagree
2022-05-20T03:04:17 < specing> (:
2022-05-20T03:04:45 < BrainDamage> just buy 5$ china board
2022-05-20T03:05:06 < specing> 1$ china board
2022-05-20T03:05:14 < catphish> but what board
2022-05-20T03:05:43 < BrainDamage> pwm motor 12V, I'm sure you'll find hundreds of result
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2022-05-20T04:30:37 < upgrdman> lol, not sure if this guy is trolling or retarded   https://www.reddit.com/r/opengl/comments/ut5iib/intel_graphics_3000/
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2022-05-20T04:52:46 < aandrew> lol
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2022-05-20T10:50:21 < mawk> >We been fool'd, we been bamzooled , and we been cheated. INTEL 3000 GRAPHICS WILL LIVE ON AND WE WILL BUILD THE FUTURE WITH IT
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2022-05-20T12:15:38 < catphish> i'm going with trolling. https://www.reddit.com/r/MinecraftForge/comments/tcnoqs/client_crashes_with_exit_code_6_but_cant_figure/i978az9/
2022-05-20T12:23:07 < mawk> why catphish 
2022-05-20T12:23:33 < mawk> ah yeah
2022-05-20T12:23:44 < mawk> >Put your laptop/computer upside down for as long as you had it the other way. this should reseat the memory buffers.
2022-05-20T12:27:50 < Xogium> lol
2022-05-20T12:56:23 < Steffanx> Have you tried it mawk?
2022-05-20T13:15:24 < mawk> :(
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2022-05-20T13:55:18 < mawk> I know what is wrong with the tracks I gave to karlp , they're too modern
2022-05-20T13:55:24 < mawk> early hardcore is probably better: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7YcRpwGE4E
2022-05-20T13:55:33 < mawk> this is the first techno track I ever listened to
2022-05-20T13:55:58 < mawk> from the 1999 compilation thunderdome 23
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2022-05-20T14:03:10 < PaulFertser_> Mangy_Dog: hey. So have you figured out why your app didn't run?
2022-05-20T14:08:02 < Mangy_Dog> yep
2022-05-20T14:08:23 < Mangy_Dog> my fualt
2022-05-20T14:09:16 < Mangy_Dog> So the code was not getting to main() because it was building the globals and getting stuck on a template class i didnt declare correctly
2022-05-20T14:09:43 < Mangy_Dog> i treated the template like a normal class and split it across a header file and cpp file... i learnt a new thing... templates dont want that
2022-05-20T14:10:03 < karlp> mawk: yeah, back then has some better bits, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0zDmeZF6uE
2022-05-20T14:10:08 < PaulFertser_> Mangy_Dog: why didn't the compiler complain though?
2022-05-20T14:10:19 < Mangy_Dog> no idea
2022-05-20T14:10:38 < PaulFertser_> Mangy_Dog: where was it getting stuck? While initialising global variables?
2022-05-20T14:10:59 < Mangy_Dog> when initing the global var object of that template class
2022-05-20T14:11:20 < PaulFertser_> Guess it was doing something undesired in the constructor then.
2022-05-20T14:11:32 < Mangy_Dog> and even then. I only saw it was that object breaking it, by running it with debug level optimisations... 
2022-05-20T14:11:46 < Mangy_Dog> it wasnt even reaching that line before getting stuck when i had full optimise on
2022-05-20T14:12:45 < Mangy_Dog> https://twitter.com/MD_Builds/status/1527291567534313477
2022-05-20T14:22:18 < mawk> nice track karlp 
2022-05-20T14:24:09 < josuah> software brown-out detector, I did not even know it was possible to sense the input voltage of an MCU
2022-05-20T14:25:39 < Mangy_Dog> im just reading around 3v being my turn off level
2022-05-20T14:44:42 < BrainDamage> josuah: that's what reading the reference voltage with the adc for
2022-05-20T14:45:02 < BrainDamage> you read the ref voltage, while using the adc ref as analog in
2022-05-20T14:45:30 < BrainDamage> you know what the ref should be, but instead you get another value, you reverse the relation and get the voltage of the supply
2022-05-20T14:45:43 < josuah> I feel like I just learned to count to 1000 after being stuck to 999
2022-05-20T14:47:29 < BrainDamage> the hardware based brownout instead is a simple comparator generating an interrupt
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2022-05-20T16:17:15 < Steffanx> So are you monitoring the increase in monkeypox yet jadew ?
2022-05-20T16:17:45 < Steffanx> *cases
2022-05-20T16:27:15 < catphish> there's a real chance my car may fail its annual test on some silly things :) "a catalyst isn’t missing where one was fitted as standard"
2022-05-20T16:28:48 < catphish> "Visible electrical wiring and the battery will be checked." they will have fun interpreting that one
2022-05-20T16:41:40 < catphish> having fun with EV charger today https://i.imgur.com/3TPRMhM.jpg
2022-05-20T17:07:14 < mawk> Steffanx did you write this? https://i.redd.it/lpaasuy7im091.png
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2022-05-20T17:31:28 < Steffanx> Uh what mawk...
2022-05-20T17:32:32 < mawk> lol
2022-05-20T17:33:06 < mawk> WE WETEN DAT TWITTER OOK CABAL IS!!
2022-05-20T17:33:42 < mawk> how did she dare not support baudet
2022-05-20T17:33:46 < mawk> probably a cabal member
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2022-05-20T21:00:33 < Mangy_Dog> https://www.arterytek.com/download/DS_AT32F403_V1.06_EN.pdf this a known stm32 clone?
2022-05-20T21:11:00 < zyp> new to me, but sure looks like one
2022-05-20T21:11:59 < zyp> it doesn't match any actual STM32s, since it's an M4 cpu with old peripherals like GPIOv1
2022-05-20T21:12:33 < zyp> at least I think it's v1 going by the look of the pinout table
2022-05-20T21:14:37 < zyp> still, M4 is a superset of M3, so it'll run code built for M3 unmodified, so if the peripherals are similar enough to STM32F1, it might be possible to swap one in
2022-05-20T21:19:10 < Mangy_Dog> hmm
2022-05-20T21:19:19 < Mangy_Dog> not so much thinking of swapping
2022-05-20T21:19:23 < Mangy_Dog> for thinking entry vectors
2022-05-20T21:19:25 < jpa-> https://www.arterychip.com/en/product/AT32F407.jsp  looks like reasonably close match to stm32f407
2022-05-20T21:19:40 < Mangy_Dog> its from my chinese label printer
2022-05-20T21:19:50 < Mangy_Dog> its ok but the software could be better.... and it got me thinking
2022-05-20T21:20:01 < Mangy_Dog> https://twitter.com/MD_Builds/status/1527713715424006145
2022-05-20T21:21:44 < zyp> probably wouldn't be too hard to replace the firmware on it, but probably not worthwhile :)
2022-05-20T21:21:45 < jpa-> hmm AT32F407 has GPIOv1 also, so yeah, not very good clones
2022-05-20T21:22:32 < zyp> close enough to be easily usable with laks
2022-05-20T21:22:45 < jpa-> also it doesn't have CRC->IDR, that's a deal breaker for me
2022-05-20T21:22:48 < zyp> aha
2022-05-20T21:22:52 < zyp> haha
2022-05-20T21:23:04 < Mangy_Dog> it be nice if the firmware for this thing was leaked
2022-05-20T21:23:14 < Mangy_Dog> i dont fancy writing it complete from scratch
2022-05-20T21:23:33 < Mangy_Dog> and id bet its protected so i cant firmware dump and get a rough decompile to clean ip
2022-05-20T21:23:34 < Mangy_Dog> up
2022-05-20T21:23:54 < jpa-> the protection is probably vulnerable to one of the many hacks
2022-05-20T21:23:56 < Mangy_Dog> im also not sure im skilled enough to clean up a decompiled program :D
2022-05-20T21:24:31 < jpa-> but yeah, decompiling takes a lot of time and doesn't provide a good base to build on
2022-05-20T21:24:50 < zyp> nah, I'd expect it to take less time to reimplement it from scratch
2022-05-20T21:25:06 < jpa-> yeah
2022-05-20T21:25:13 < Mangy_Dog> it be A LOT of reimplimentation
2022-05-20T21:25:13 < Mangy_Dog> :p
2022-05-20T21:25:16 < Mangy_Dog> its a full program
2022-05-20T21:25:23 < Mangy_Dog> my tricorder took god knows how long now
2022-05-20T21:25:32 < Mangy_Dog> id suspect this be a bit more complex in some areas
2022-05-20T21:25:56 < jpa-> AT32F407 calls it's usb clock sync "HICK".. i wonder if it suffers from hickups
2022-05-20T21:26:03 < Mangy_Dog> :p
2022-05-20T21:28:32 < zyp> okay, let me requalify that: I'd expect it to take *me* less time to reimplement the required functionality from scratch, than to decompile the firmware and massage it into an actual compilable state
2022-05-20T21:28:42 < Mangy_Dog> :p
2022-05-20T21:29:12 < Mangy_Dog> honest though... If i didnt have several projects i wanted to get on with and 10 tricorders to build....
2022-05-20T21:29:21 < Mangy_Dog> id might actually do an open source firmware for this thing
2022-05-20T21:29:27 < Mangy_Dog> its a rather popular cheap label printer
2022-05-20T21:29:41 < Mangy_Dog> uses brother like tape
2022-05-20T21:29:45 < Mangy_Dog> and the chinese tape is dirt cheap
2022-05-20T21:29:59 < jpa-> i could probably get the firmware through decompile & compile roundtrip faster than reimplementing, but it would still be messier than LaurenceB's code and encumbered by license violation
2022-05-20T21:30:17 < Mangy_Dog> oh indeed it be naughty
2022-05-20T21:31:00 < zyp> maybe I'm underestimating decompilers
2022-05-20T21:31:58 < jpa-> ghidra is pretty nice
2022-05-20T21:32:03 < zyp> I don't have good experience with them, for what reverse engineering I've been doing I've found the disassembly-flowchart way more useful
2022-05-20T21:32:20 < Mangy_Dog> there are flow charts
2022-05-20T21:32:21 < Mangy_Dog> ?
2022-05-20T21:32:22 < Mangy_Dog> :o
2022-05-20T21:32:36 < zyp> yeah, I've got a screenshot somewhere
2022-05-20T21:32:43 < jpa-> there is also a plugin for importing register definitions to ghidra so that it can resolve them
2022-05-20T21:33:22 < zyp> like this: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/JHa1y.png
2022-05-20T21:33:43 < Mangy_Dog> hmm the LQFP100 pin out doesnt line up with the chip i have in the printer
2022-05-20T21:33:46 < zyp> ghidra also has those
2022-05-20T21:34:00 < Mangy_Dog> datasheet says PA13 and PA12 are the SWD programming ports
2022-05-20T21:34:07 < Mangy_Dog> but looking at the picture
2022-05-20T21:34:55 < Mangy_Dog> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/695271473308237985/977278245173084190/unknown.png
2022-05-20T21:35:05 < Mangy_Dog> those two pins dont seem to go to any test pads
2022-05-20T21:35:15 < Mangy_Dog> the first MIGHT go to t6
2022-05-20T21:35:21 < jpa-> chinese don't use SWD
2022-05-20T21:35:26 < Mangy_Dog> jtag?
2022-05-20T21:35:40 < jpa-> my owon DMM puts all debug pins to keyboard, even though they had free pins also
2022-05-20T21:37:04 < Mangy_Dog> so you think some kind of bootloader and software serial maybe virtual usb implimentation for firmware?
2022-05-20T21:37:39 < jpa-> BOOT0 bootloader and serial port somewhere probably, though could be USB also
2022-05-20T21:38:20 < jpa-> doesn't stop you from using the SWD pins, though
2022-05-20T21:38:26 < Mangy_Dog> tbh im still kinda suprised just how simple this pcb is... and frankly... how hackable it is
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2022-05-20T21:40:19 < zyp> it's not designed to be hackable, just cost optimized
2022-05-20T21:40:34 < zyp> that means only put what's actually necessary on it
2022-05-20T21:41:13 < zyp> and for a label printer like that that means a mcu and whatever support components are necessary to talk to the printing head, keypad and display
2022-05-20T21:43:43 < Mangy_Dog> nods
2022-05-20T21:44:02 < Mangy_Dog> the keypad is an interesting one
2022-05-20T21:44:13 < Mangy_Dog> right yes must be
2022-05-20T21:44:17 < Mangy_Dog> matrixed
2022-05-20T21:44:34 < Mangy_Dog> my guess the row of resistors and caps on the right of the pic i posted
2022-05-20T21:44:35 < zyp> and board size is defined by case size, which is defined by keypad size, which results in the board being a lot larger than it has to be
2022-05-20T21:44:48 < Mangy_Dog> must be the debouncer and matrix array
2022-05-20T21:45:04 < Mangy_Dog> oh indeed the pcb is large enough to cover the keyboard
2022-05-20T21:46:17 < Mangy_Dog> the ONLY downside i can see with this hardware... is the display
2022-05-20T21:46:29 < Mangy_Dog> its a mix of a simple dot matrix... and fixed icon lcd
2022-05-20T21:46:35 < Mangy_Dog> soooo id have to work with what it has to use it
2022-05-20T21:46:42 < Mangy_Dog> unless i wanted to go stupid and replace the display :p
2022-05-20T21:48:15 < Mangy_Dog> ahhh okays
2022-05-20T21:48:26 < Mangy_Dog> so next to that winbond flash is spi ram
2022-05-20T21:49:25 < Mangy_Dog> interesting
2022-05-20T21:49:30 < Mangy_Dog> kinda suprised it needs it
2022-05-20T21:50:01 < Mangy_Dog> the printing is slow enough for it to just bang out the data in buffered chunks on internal ram surly
2022-05-20T21:50:11 < Mangy_Dog> the characters are really rather basic in this model
2022-05-20T21:50:15 < Mangy_Dog> which is one of its drawbacks
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2022-05-20T22:11:11 < catphish> charge setup almost working :) https://imgur.com/a/H5rcXvh
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2022-05-20T23:23:10 < kaki> hello early
2022-05-20T23:48:28 < qyx> hello kitty
--- Day changed la touko 21 2022
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2022-05-21T00:21:12 < upgrdman> are there any super-common color dot-matrix lcds that are avaialable from many sources? something as common and replaceable as those 2x16 character lcds, but color and dot-matrix
2022-05-21T00:21:53 < upgrdman> (i need something that will hopefully be avaialable for at least a decade, so hoping to find a "commodity" lcd)
2022-05-21T00:24:16 < zyp> there's a ton of those small oleds with SSD1331 controller
2022-05-21T00:24:21 < catphish> electroswing mashup musics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdvxNF2jCa4&t=621s
2022-05-21T00:28:27 < zyp> it's half a decade since I picked up the SSD1331 display I've been playing with, and it's still as available as ever
2022-05-21T00:29:53 < zyp> january 2017: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/M6QvX.jpg
2022-05-21T00:37:59 < zyp> jpa-, bldc vs steppers; steppers have a higher pole count which makes them run slower and have more torque, but is that an even tradeoff? are there other considerations?
2022-05-21T00:38:34 < zyp> (you're the resident motor expert here)
2022-05-21T00:40:52 < catphish> zyp: clearly it's a tradeoff, if you want a motor that can run 10,000 RPM you're going to struggle with 100 poles
2022-05-21T00:41:33 < catphish> with that said, i am surprised there aren't more motors in between the two
2022-05-21T00:42:09 < zyp> I picked up a BLDC with encoder that I'm planning to try out running as a servo
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2022-05-21T00:42:57 < zyp> the rated torque seems to be around 1/6 of a stepper of comparable size
2022-05-21T00:43:13 < catphish> my understanding is that the problem with this is that the angle between poles isn't linear
2022-05-21T00:43:15 < zyp> rated speed is 4000rpm
2022-05-21T00:43:49 < catphish> but maybe with PID control that doesn't matter
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2022-05-21T00:44:44 < catphish> and obviously less torque, indeed
2022-05-21T00:45:28 < zyp> I'm planning to run a 5mm pitch ball screw with this, which I then figure should be capable of the same force as a stepper running a GT2 belt with a 16-tooth wheel (given that 16*2/5 is 6.4)
2022-05-21T00:46:42 < zyp> 4000rpm should give me 333mm/s
2022-05-21T00:48:11 < zyp> I'm not sure which numbers are reasonable, this is all experimentation anyway
2022-05-21T00:49:06 < zyp> but I'm planning to use it for the plasma cutter, so it's not gonna see any extreme forces anyway
2022-05-21T00:55:03 < zyp> I like how quiet this thing is: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/T7Eoi.mp4
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2022-05-21T08:43:46 < jpa-> zyp: steppers operate in reluctance mode while bldc's operate as synchronous motors, i think that gives some 10-20% efficiency difference for the motor itself
2022-05-21T08:44:23 < jpa-> zyp: as for driving circuit, the open-loop stepper driver is very wasteful when motor is stopped (0 output power, lot of output heat); but so would be an open-loop BLDC driver
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2022-05-21T08:51:28 < jpa-> (the motor efficiency differences come mainly from magnetic field leaking between the close-by poles and from resistive losses in thin wiring needed to get high torque in small space; i think the tradeoff could be more even for a low pole count stepper motor)
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2022-05-21T11:10:16 < zyp> jpa-, i.e. bldc are more efficient?
2022-05-21T11:13:02 < jpa-> typical BLDC motor is more efficient than typical stepper motor
2022-05-21T11:13:47 < jpa-> and if you then add a sensored BLDC driver vs. open-loop stepper driver, the efficiency difference becomes even larger
2022-05-21T11:14:10 < zyp> bit unfair comparison, since you could run a sensored stepper driver as well
2022-05-21T11:15:27 < jpa-> yeah, and some electric cars use reluctance motors that are similar to low-pole stepper motors, though optimized for good running instead of precise steps
2022-05-21T11:15:44 < jpa-> so the differences are not necessarily inherent to the technology
2022-05-21T11:17:08 < zyp> what's the factor between pole count and steps, a typical 1.8deg stepper with 200 steps, how many poles does it have? 100?
2022-05-21T11:17:41 < zyp> or 50?
2022-05-21T11:17:50 < jpa-> 50, i think - because the whole cycle between ++, +-, --, -+ is 4 steps
2022-05-21T11:18:19 < zyp> yeah, but isn't there something about pole pairs too?
2022-05-21T11:18:33 < jpa-> but they don't have 50 coils, just 4 or 8 coils and 50 protrusions on the stator & rotor
2022-05-21T11:19:05 < jpa-> and the stepper motors are axially divided to two sections that have the 90 degree offset in how the stator & rotor shapes align
2022-05-21T11:19:29 < zyp> ah, that's why they've got independent coils
2022-05-21T11:20:09 < jpa-> if you are interested in low-Kv brushless motors, look into gimbal motors
2022-05-21T11:21:58 < jpa-> one gimbal motor i have has 12 coils and 14 magnets, which gives 1:6 reduction in speed AFAIK
2022-05-21T11:22:34 < zyp> the bldc I've got has 8-poles
2022-05-21T11:23:21 < zyp> which I believe means it'll have to go through the six-step pattern 8/2 times per revolution
2022-05-21T11:24:00 < zyp> kinda making it a 24-step motor
2022-05-21T11:25:10 < jpa-> it's easy to test by feeding low current DC into one of the coils and trying how many steps it feels like spinning the motor shaft
2022-05-21T11:25:10 < zyp> that's a factor of 8.33 vs a 200-step motor, kinda same ballpark as the factor 6 in rated torque
2022-05-21T11:25:58 < zyp> yeah, I'm already open loop driving it, so all I have to do is hook up the encoder and read off how it moves
2022-05-21T11:27:01 < zyp> here's the code doing the spinning in the video I linked: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/ZwExt
2022-05-21T11:36:36 < zyp> yep, setting interval to 42ms makes it do one revolution per second
2022-05-21T11:36:57 < zyp> so it is indeed a 24-step motor
2022-05-21T11:43:12 < zyp> hmm, how does voltage relate to torque? I figure torque = current, so voltage only limits how much current I can push?
2022-05-21T11:44:20 < jpa-> that's correct
2022-05-21T11:46:58 < jpa-> voltage = speed / Kv + R * current    torque = current / (2 * pi * Kv)
2022-05-21T11:47:41 < jpa-> (i guess you could throw in + L * current_derivative in the voltage equation too, if the coil has high enough inductance to matter)
2022-05-21T11:50:50 < zyp> and I guess the voltage rating of a motor is derived from the power rating?
2022-05-21T11:51:26 < zyp> like, this thing is rated for 24V and 30W
2022-05-21T11:51:50 < jpa-> voltage rating of motor is usually meaningless until you get to the insulation limits
2022-05-21T11:52:12 < zyp> yeah, 24V is not reasonably an insulation limit
2022-05-21T11:53:00 < jpa-> motor power is limited by heating, which is usually more about copper losses and linearly related to current.. so the motor could overheat with 10W at low speed and run fine with 50W at high speed
2022-05-21T11:53:01 < zyp> so I figure it's just a guideline figure on how much voltage I need to put in the rated 30W
2022-05-21T11:53:29 < jpa-> one could consider the voltage a "design speed"
2022-05-21T11:54:31 < zyp> heating being linearly related to current meaning it's linearly related to torque?
2022-05-21T11:54:39 < jpa-> yes
2022-05-21T11:55:10 < jpa-> the specified voltage of the motor is usually the point where the specs are measured, so the further away you go from, the more difference in the various spec numbers to reality
2022-05-21T11:57:54 < jpa-> for motor protection it is enough to set a current limit to protect against coils quickly overheating, and then a temperature limit to protect against heat build-up
2022-05-21T11:58:12 < zyp> so if I've got a motor specced to 24V and run it at 12V, I can expect half the max speed, but still the same torque?
2022-05-21T11:58:40 < zyp> or half the torque as well?
2022-05-21T11:59:05 < jpa-> same torque
2022-05-21T11:59:55 < jpa-> and in short term you can easily get e.g. 2x torque by just increasing current, but it will heat up the motor
2022-05-21T12:00:58 < jpa-> coil resistance can be measured and from that calculated how much heat is generated for current level; after that it is just regular thermal dissipation calculations of air flow & heatsink area
2022-05-21T12:02:08 < jpa-> there is also some losses and heat generated in the iron core, but AFAIK iron losses quite small compared to copper losses in typical BLDC motors
2022-05-21T12:02:56 < jpa-> (copper loss grows by torque, iron loss grows by speed)
2022-05-21T12:04:28 < jpa-> (one can estimate the iron loss by spinning motor at target speed externally and measuring how much it heats up from just the spinning magnetic field)
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2022-05-21T12:10:49 < zyp> hmm, for a leadscrew, force = torque * 2pi / pitch, right?
2022-05-21T12:12:42 < zyp> that implies that this motor should be apply around 90N with a 5mm pitch ballscrew
2022-05-21T12:13:37 < jpa-> for lead screw, friction is usually 50% or more
2022-05-21T12:13:44 < jpa-> ah, ballscrew, yeah
2022-05-21T12:14:15 < zyp> yeah, I picked up a couple of 1605 ballscrews to minimize friction
2022-05-21T12:15:27 < zyp> I figure force wise it's way overkill for a plasma :)
2022-05-21T12:15:41 < jpa-> depends on weight and acceleration
2022-05-21T12:15:50 < zyp> yeah
2022-05-21T12:16:19 < jpa-> but even then, 90N would be enough for 90kg at typical 1m/s^2 acceleration
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2022-05-21T12:16:57 < zyp> that sounds way overkill :)
2022-05-21T12:17:05 < jpa-> though for one reason or other, in the CNC project i'm not getting nearly as good acceleration as my calculations would give
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2022-05-21T13:21:23 < Steffanx> Q
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2022-05-21T22:34:20 < mawk> en 40 on a donné les juifs mais pas les coins à morilles
2022-05-21T22:34:39 < josuah> mawk: oh my god!
2022-05-21T22:35:27 < josuah> the worst in that sentence, is that it is factual
2022-05-21T22:35:51 < mawk> lol
2022-05-21T22:43:41 < Steffanx> Moi aussi. Deux croissants et un kilo pomme de terre, sil vous plait. Maintenant monsieur mawk.
2022-05-21T22:48:03 < specing> lol
2022-05-21T22:49:04 < mawk> Steffanx to I said "in 40 we gave the jews but not the mushroom picking up spots"
2022-05-21T22:52:20 < Steffanx> Lol, alright. I just replied with pretty much all I remember from french classes at high school
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2022-05-21T23:15:29 < Steffanx> How's collecting and applying nose grease going btw, mawk? 
2022-05-21T23:18:49 -!- kraiskil_ [~kraiskil@185.123.143.196] has joined ##stm32
2022-05-21T23:21:01 < mawk> lol
2022-05-21T23:21:13 < mawk> I cleaned my camera better and it seems the dust scratches are gone
2022-05-21T23:21:20 < mawk> I bought compressed air and stuff
2022-05-21T23:22:34 < Steffanx> But no longer taking photos?
2022-05-21T23:22:47 < Steffanx> Or no longer having that developed
2022-05-21T23:31:43 < mawk> yes I still take them
2022-05-21T23:31:48 < mawk> but not developed 
2022-05-21T23:31:53 < mawk> because I'm poor
2022-05-21T23:31:59 < mawk> I have a stock to get developed now
2022-05-21T23:33:53 < mawk> Steffanx https://youtu.be/b0sPi3U9_Ro
2022-05-21T23:33:57 < mawk> do you know this?
2022-05-21T23:34:03 < Steffanx> Luckily vakantietoeslag is coming 
2022-05-21T23:34:03 < mawk> the girls across my window are singing it
2022-05-21T23:34:06 < mawk> ja
2022-05-21T23:34:42 < Steffanx> Ofcourss I know it 
2022-05-21T23:35:05 < Steffanx> e
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2022-05-21T23:43:01 < upgrdman> neat. my stm32 "oscilloscope" clearly sees it's own VDD noise when processing an ISR and transmitting data via USB http://farrellf.com/temp/stm32f7_vdd_noise_artifacts.png
2022-05-21T23:43:31 < upgrdman> those periodic bursts of noise are at 2ms intervals, the rate that i'm shitting data out to USB
2022-05-21T23:44:09 < upgrdman> i guess this is why there are separate VSSA/VDDA pins :)
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2022-05-21T23:53:50 < specing> upgrdman: I was also seeing Vdd fluctuations when playing with ADC on stm32f072rb discovery
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2022-05-21T23:54:57 < specing> upgrdman: it has an LC filter for Vdda
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2022-05-21T23:55:53 < upgrdman> k
--- Day changed su touko 22 2022
2022-05-22T00:19:47 < zyp> jpa-, any suggestions for how to handle the encoder? it's a quadrature encoder with zero signal and I'd like to use it both as an angle reference for FOC and as a multi-turn encoder to keep track of the axis position
2022-05-22T00:21:25 < zyp> the encoder mode in the timers have an index feature that I can hook the index signal to, automatically resetting the count when the signal is asserted
2022-05-22T00:22:14 < jpa-> instead of auto reset i would just use input capture to get the count at index
2022-05-22T00:22:16 < zyp> but another possible approach is using input capture on the index signal 
2022-05-22T00:22:18 < zyp> yeah
2022-05-22T00:25:28 < zyp> I'm still limited to a 16-bit timer on this board, and the encoder/ballscrew combination is giving me 1.25µm resolution, so that'll give a range of 82cm or so before overflow
2022-05-22T00:25:54 < zyp> so I'm not certain that helps anything
2022-05-22T00:26:37 < zyp> and the index feature has some filters to ensure the reset happens in the correct count phase
2022-05-22T00:27:34 < jpa-> just do typical   uint16_t val = TIM->CNT; int16_t delta = val-old; old = val; real_pos += delta;    wherever you use it
2022-05-22T00:27:35 < zyp> so I think maybe the best solution would be to let the timer count the motor angle, and maintain a turn count in software
2022-05-22T00:29:47 < zyp> ah, right, instead of trying to detect overflow without a race condition, just poll it often enough to update the soft count
2022-05-22T00:30:33 < zyp> that solves both the potential race conditions I pictured
2022-05-22T00:32:07 < zyp> and since I'm only adding deltas to the software count, I can zero that completely independent of the encoder and not bother tracking offsets
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2022-05-22T01:22:48 < zyp> jpa-, have you done any space vector modulation?
2022-05-22T01:23:59 < upgrdman> has anyone tried to get very clean samples for stm32 adc's? is a really clean LDO needed, or is an LC filter feeding VDDA all thats needed, or is it simple not possible (silicon issue)?
2022-05-22T01:24:58 < upgrdman> I see about 50mV of noise on my 3.3V rail, in line with the noise bursts i see on ADC samples. i'll be looking into a better LDO. using a 1117 right now.
2022-05-22T01:25:06 < zyp> maybe look at F3 reference designs? I think it was F37x or something that had a high resolution ADC
2022-05-22T01:25:19 < zyp> better not tell karlp that
2022-05-22T01:25:36 < upgrdman> adding capacitors had very little affect. i tried several 100nF, some 10uF, and even some 3000uF low-ESR electrolytic
2022-05-22T01:25:50 < upgrdman> why not tell karlp?
2022-05-22T01:26:17 < zyp> https://github.com/karlp/zypsnips/blob/master/lm1117.replacements.for.glory.md
2022-05-22T01:28:10 < upgrdman> thx
2022-05-22T01:28:57 < upgrdman> reading some datashits. "line regulation" is how much the input voltage influences the output voltage, and "load regulation" is how much the output current influences the output voltage, right?
2022-05-22T01:46:28 < BrainDamage> yes
2022-05-22T02:13:58 < upgrdman> anyone know if feeding VDDA with a it's own clean 3.3V rail would help reduce ADC noise, or would noise couple through the silicon die?
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2022-05-22T03:53:14 < zyp> I believe the datasheet requires vdda to come from the same supply as vdd
2022-05-22T03:54:06 < zyp> or actually, it may depend on which part you're using, but there's at least sequencing requirements
2022-05-22T03:54:08 < qyx> really?
2022-05-22T03:56:16 < qyx> upgrdman: stm32 adc reading are quite consistent to within 1-2 LSBs even when using only a ferrite bead + 1u + 100n
2022-05-22T03:56:39 < qyx> of course using a real breg, not a 1117
2022-05-22T03:56:45 < qyx> *vreg
2022-05-22T03:58:00 < zyp> actually, I've got the G431 datasheet open, it does *not* require them to be the same
2022-05-22T03:58:07 < qyx> I tried that SDADC on F3 with a dedicated VDDA supply, got 4 decimal places of resolution when reading a NTX
2022-05-22T03:58:33 < qyx> I mean noise-free resolution
2022-05-22T03:58:36 < zyp> «The VDDA voltage level is independent from the VDD voltage and should preferably be connected to VDD when these peripherals are not used.»
2022-05-22T03:58:54 < qyx> with the last digit stable when the input was shorted
2022-05-22T03:59:25 < qyx> s/NTX/NTC thermistor
2022-05-22T03:59:37 < zyp> I believe the issue on other parts is that they are not independently monitored, so you're not guaranteed to come correctly out of reset if they are powered independently
2022-05-22T04:00:43 < zyp> F407 datasheet: «VDDA and VSSA must be connected to VDD and VSS respectively.»
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2022-05-22T04:01:22 < qyx> interesting
2022-05-22T04:01:39 < qyx> but yeah, F4 is quite old
2022-05-22T04:01:47 < zyp> F303 datasheet: «The VDDA voltage level must be always greated or equal to the VDD voltage level and must be provided first.»
2022-05-22T04:01:57 < zyp> greater*
2022-05-22T04:02:51 < zyp> so yeah, read the datasheet thoroughly before supplying VDDA separately
2022-05-22T04:03:24 < zyp> I figure it makes sense for F3 to support it, since F3 is analog oriented, and G4 is supposed to be an improved F3
2022-05-22T04:03:32 < zyp> so I'm not sure how the other new parts do
2022-05-22T04:04:32 < zyp> for G0 it's moot, there is no dedicated VDDA pin
2022-05-22T04:07:38 < zyp> H7 requires VDD to be provided first, but VDDA can go higher once VDD has reached at least 1V
2022-05-22T04:09:55 < zyp> I also worked out how to do space vector pwm, turns out that it's easier than it looks
2022-05-22T04:13:23 < upgrdman> qyx, ya my noise is very low, except when my ADC ISR get's triggered and I send the samples out via USB. then i see a burst of +/- 15 LSBs
2022-05-22T04:13:46 < upgrdman> and it looks like my 3.3V rail has those same bursts of noise, so ya, guessing my 1117 is to blame now
2022-05-22T04:14:29 < upgrdman> 1117 is rated for load regulation of 10mV max... is there another common LDO that is significantly better at load reg?
2022-05-22T04:17:51 < qyx> 10 mV is 13 LSB
2022-05-22T04:18:08 < qyx> tps706/9 !aybe?
2022-05-22T04:19:15 < qyx> hm no
2022-05-22T04:20:53 < qyx> but any ceramic cap stable LDO with proper decoupling should be ok
2022-05-22T04:22:08 < qyx> tps7a20 is a low noise LDO, or ncp700b
2022-05-22T04:31:48 < upgrdman> ya i tried with adjusting my decoupling. add lots of 100nF's, then some 10uF's, then a 3300uF, and only a slight improvement
2022-05-22T04:32:02 < upgrdman> added those caps all around the board. not just vssa/vdda
2022-05-22T04:32:41 < upgrdman> but the noise is low freq. those bursts happen at 500Hz, which is how often i get an ADC ISR which then shits data out via USB
2022-05-22T04:38:32 < upgrdman> qyx, tps7a20 had load reg of "19mV" ... worse than 1117!
2022-05-22T04:39:10 < upgrdman> actually its 19mV nominal, no max rating. 1117 is 10mV max. wtf?!
2022-05-22T04:44:56 < upgrdman> ncp700b looks like a good option tho
2022-05-22T05:00:10 < upgrdman> anyone used one of those "manual pick and place" things? supposedly it like a pantagraph + camera, just to make it easier to hand place components?
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2022-05-22T06:41:26 < upgrdman> lol, i was able to get the noise to spread out by doing lots of FPU math in my main() loop. but it's still noisey. will have to try the ncp700b
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2022-05-22T09:27:57 < jpa-> zyp: i have, https://github.com/PetteriAimonen/ebike-controller/blob/master/src/motor_control.c#L41
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2022-05-22T12:33:33 < qyx> jpa-: are you satisfied with it?
2022-05-22T12:35:44 < jpa-> it's simple and works
2022-05-22T12:36:35 < jpa-> for another project where the motor had much lower inductance and i needed 200kHz PWM, i went with a weird DTC/PWM hybrid scheme
2022-05-22T12:39:03 < jpa-> the whole space vector modulation & clark transform etc. is really to make current regulation work with slow control loops
2022-05-22T12:39:43 < jpa-> nowadays with fast CPUs one can just compute target current vector from the angle and have fast current feedback loop match the stator current to the target
2022-05-22T12:40:42 < jpa-> though i guess slow control loop also translates to less switching losses, as one cannot easily have the control loop run faster than the PWM
2022-05-22T12:46:02 < zyp> jpa-, nice and simple code, but I wouldn't understand what was going on if not for the fact I worked out the math last night :)
2022-05-22T12:46:31 < zyp> and there's apparently a few more tricks to improve it
2022-05-22T12:50:32 < zyp> using center aligned pwm reduces switching losses, and dividing the idle time 50:50 between the 111 and 000 states apparently minimizes THD
2022-05-22T12:52:06 < jpa-> IIRC i have the timer configured for center-aligned PWM; i'm not sure what THD matters here
2022-05-22T12:52:20 < zyp> i.e. instead of subtracting min, you subtract 1.0 + min - max;
2022-05-22T12:53:45 < jpa-> to me it seems like switching losses would be reduced by having one channel low as long as it can be, and distortion is mostly eliminated by control loop anyway (i would expect cogging effects to be larger than distortion in the FET driving)
2022-05-22T12:54:12 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/Bo7tv.png
2022-05-22T13:04:52 < zyp> by fast current feedback loop, you mean just measure each current and run a PID or something per channel?
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2022-05-22T14:52:49 < zyp> jpa-, why does my transistors get hotter the lower the modulation index I run them at?
2022-05-22T14:56:04 < zyp> I hacked up some dumb SVM code: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/tRqnZ
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2022-05-22T15:30:46 < karlp> upgrdman: you should read the internal ref all the time too, and use that to calibrate for dips in the supply.
2022-05-22T15:31:09 < karlp> upgrdman: we did that very effectively to compensate for the supply bumps when driving rs485 line biasing.
2022-05-22T15:31:32 < karlp> somewhere I have some old screenshots of adc readings with/witout compensation by vref readings.
2022-05-22T15:34:56 < mawk> zyp
2022-05-22T15:34:58 < mawk> find all continuous functions f : (0; +∞) → R that satisfy f(xy) = f(x)+f(y)
2022-05-22T15:35:09 < zyp> I don't want to
2022-05-22T15:35:29 < mawk> :(
2022-05-22T15:35:30 < mawk> why
2022-05-22T15:35:37 < mawk> it's interesting 
2022-05-22T15:35:40 < mawk> guaranteed
2022-05-22T15:37:55 < Xogium> stupid valgrind broken on arm ! ... sorry
2022-05-22T15:38:23 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/Jgg2c.mp4
2022-05-22T15:38:27 < Xogium> but its true. Its so useless on arm that it doesn't even give you a proper stack trace to check where the program leaked memory
2022-05-22T15:39:39 < zyp> I still don't know entirely what I'm doing, but I'm learning a lot
2022-05-22T15:39:57 < Xogium> want to know another fun one ? Openssl does extremely strange shit where it uses the sigill signal to determine what crypto methods are supported
2022-05-22T15:40:14 < Xogium> guess what is broken in valgrind on arm ? Signal trapping
2022-05-22T15:40:45 < Mangy_Dog> youre learning to drive a motor... REALLY FAST
2022-05-22T15:40:51 < Mangy_Dog> zy :)
2022-05-22T15:41:03 < Mangy_Dog> is that an encoder on the back?
2022-05-22T15:41:13 < zyp> yes
2022-05-22T15:41:25 < Mangy_Dog> home made or came with motor?
2022-05-22T15:41:29 < zyp> came with
2022-05-22T15:41:34 < Mangy_Dog> ah
2022-05-22T15:41:41 < zyp> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003736256979.html
2022-05-22T15:41:59 < Mangy_Dog> when i make this cnc machine i want to make... it comes with big steppers but no encodeders
2022-05-22T15:42:07 < Mangy_Dog> been thinking about putting encoders on it
2022-05-22T15:42:38 < karlp> upgrdman:https://imgur.com/a/cvVLCZk
2022-05-22T15:45:01 < Mangy_Dog> hmmm having problems getting imgur to load
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2022-05-22T15:47:07 < karlp> well, I can't remember my password for jvnv on thiscomputer and zyp needs accounts now :)
2022-05-22T15:48:49 < zyp> jpa-, currently running this: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/N7JZn -- so if I understand the behavior of the power supply; at low speed I'm pushing a lot of useless power into the motor, just causing resistive heating, but at higher speeds BEMF limits how much power it's possible to put into the motor with the available voltage, hence lower current
2022-05-22T15:50:17 < zyp> I'm running with modulation index 1, and power supply is limited to 12V 1A
2022-05-22T15:54:14 < zyp> karlp, yeah, we had some issues with indonesians apparently attempting to use it as a CDN for their music video streaming site or something, all of a sudden we had terabytes of traffic over a couple of days
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2022-05-22T16:17:40 < jpa-> zyp: yeah, open-loop voltage driving is heavily speed-dependent
2022-05-22T16:18:02 < jpa-> which is why induction motor VFDs use constant V/Hz ratio
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2022-05-22T16:40:27  * catphish hears the words induction motor and appears
2022-05-22T16:42:17 < Steffanx> Keep it in the pants.
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2022-05-22T18:03:31 < mawk> Steffanx https://i.imgur.com/4d9acoN.jpeg
2022-05-22T18:03:34 < mawk> did you stick this?
2022-05-22T18:03:38 < mawk> I saw it on a trashcab
2022-05-22T18:03:45 < mawk> trashcan
2022-05-22T18:04:17 < Steffanx> Ofcourse, Willem engel is my hero
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2022-05-22T18:23:00 < zyp> jpa-, so why are my transistors getting hotter when I turn down the modulation index?
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2022-05-22T18:47:30 < upgrdman> karlp, thx
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2022-05-22T19:45:12 < jpa-> zyp: what happens when you turn modulation index to 0, does current go to 0 as expected?
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2022-05-22T20:32:12 < mawk> who's that Steffanx 
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2022-05-22T20:51:54 < zyp> jpa-, all timer channels go to 50% like expected, but it's pulling like 3W of power, which I guess are switching losses, maybe not enough dead time?
2022-05-22T20:52:45 < zyp> but how come I don't see that at higher modulation index?
2022-05-22T20:53:17 < jpa-> possibly, or sync / balance problems between channels
2022-05-22T20:55:10 < Steffanx> see query/pm mawk. Mentioning his name was already more than the public attention that guy deserves.
2022-05-22T20:55:20 < mawk>  what
2022-05-22T20:55:27 < mawk> ah
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2022-05-22T20:59:14 < zyp> jpa-, increasing DTG helps
2022-05-22T21:00:03 < zyp> each step up from 0 reduces supply draw with like 50mA
2022-05-22T21:02:40 < jpa-> last time i had my N-fet halfbridge weirdly heat up, it was due to induced turn-on; visible as oscillation in the gate voltage
2022-05-22T21:03:09 < zyp> both my scopes are currently at the office :p
2022-05-22T21:03:51 < jpa-> i guess at 12V voltage it is unlikely anyway
2022-05-22T21:04:29 < jpa-> it gets worse the higher the supply voltage is compared to gate voltage, because more current goes through the drain-gate capacitance
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2022-05-22T21:40:20 < zyp> potentially dumb question: once I've got a torque controller and want position control, do I have to put a speed controller in between, or can I feed a position PID output straight into the torque controller? :p
2022-05-22T21:42:34 < veverak> you can feed it straight in
2022-05-22T21:42:56 < veverak> but I was told that one should want velocity control in between, as it should behave better
2022-05-22T21:43:10 < veverak> I designed our servo with that in mind, but I am not yet convinced it is trully the case :)
2022-05-22T21:43:39 < zyp> I guess it'll also allow for smoother transitions between speed control and position control
2022-05-22T21:44:09 < zyp> speaking of servo design, how much of an issue is latency?
2022-05-22T21:44:21 < veverak> afaik depends _where exactly_
2022-05-22T21:44:30 < veverak> we want torque control loop ideally on 10k
2022-05-22T21:44:32 < zyp> in the controllers
2022-05-22T21:44:33 < veverak> (Hz)
2022-05-22T21:44:45 < veverak> I was told that position can be much slower and velocity too
2022-05-22T21:44:58 < veverak> (protoype is running on 1k6Hz for torque control)
2022-05-22T21:47:31 < veverak> zyp: ah, to be precise with my information
2022-05-22T21:48:00 < veverak> zyp: I've got an short talk with a guy that develops professional servomtoors for a living for few years
2022-05-22T21:48:24 < veverak> zyp: the key point was: "well, you can ignore the details and they are not important as long as you have high control frequency"
2022-05-22T21:48:27 < zyp> how are CNC servos typically controlled? is the controller just telling each servo to «be at position x now» continously?
2022-05-22T21:48:52 < veverak> afaik that happens a lot, but that's just something that I've heard
2022-05-22T21:49:00 < zyp> I mean, that's what sending step/dir to stepper drivers work
2022-05-22T21:49:09 < zyp> *does
2022-05-22T21:49:47 < zyp> but I guess I could also do some sort of trajectory control with speed feedforward
2022-05-22T21:49:53 < veverak> yeah
2022-05-22T21:50:05 < veverak> the "be at position X" lacks information about what velocity it expects there :)
2022-05-22T21:51:45 < zyp> when I did the 3d printer stuff a few years ago I precalculated trajectories on the host and sent an array of polynomials to the stepper controller
2022-05-22T21:52:52 < zyp> not polynomials, I mean higher order equations
2022-05-22T21:53:10 < zyp> so the controller just inserted time into the equation to find position
2022-05-22T21:53:28 < zyp> and controlled step/dir based on that
2022-05-22T21:54:12 < zyp> I guess I can do something similar, precalculate equations to give both speed and position
2022-05-22T21:54:43 < zyp> position controller will then just do position correction, adding to the speed from the trajectory
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2022-05-22T22:15:44 < catphish> today i made some pretty and some not so pretty wiring diagrams https://imgur.com/a/vSAJ8qK
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2022-05-22T22:16:19 < catphish> direct links because imgur galleries kinda suck https://i.imgur.com/TM6Ao0x.png / https://i.imgur.com/O64hCU6.jpg
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2022-05-22T22:20:23 < srk> polynomials are good representation. easy to differentiate to get speed, accel..
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2022-05-22T23:00:13 < jpa-> zyp: you can either do cascade PID of position -> velocity -> torque, or you can do PIDD2 position -> torque
2022-05-22T23:01:06 < jpa-> direct PID position -> torque works poorly because torque is related to acceleration which is second derivative
2022-05-22T23:03:57 < jpa-> and yeah, you'll want feedforward also
2022-05-22T23:04:59 < jpa-> in linuxcnc setups, external servo driver usually does velocity loop, and then linuxcnc does position loop at 1kHz
2022-05-22T23:07:39 < jpa-> sending position continuously is difficult in that you then need separate signal for "brake and stop now wherever you are", e.g. when one axis stalls and others must stop
2022-05-22T23:07:59 < jpa-> with velocity loop it is just send 0
2022-05-22T23:08:12 < catphish> jpa-: in my experience, PID where P is position, D is velocity, and output is acceleration, works okay
2022-05-22T23:09:30 < catphish> if you were controlling velocity directly, you wouldn't need the derivative term
2022-05-22T23:09:37 < jpa-> i didn't get good performance out of such, it needed to react quite slowly to stay stable
2022-05-22T23:11:16 < catphish> in my case, the specifics were that P was the output of an accelerometer, D was the output of a gyroscope, and the output was differential motor speed of propellers of a multirotor, it worked very poorly when i attempts to *calculate* rotational velocity, but when it fed it in directly from a gyro, it worked well
2022-05-22T23:11:29 < jpa-> but it is true that pretty much anything can be controlled with PI only if done slowly enough
2022-05-22T23:12:09 < catphish> so i think the takeaway is that the derivative has to be realtime if you want the output to be fast
2022-05-22T23:12:12 < jpa-> differential motor speed sounds like velocity, not acceleration
2022-05-22T23:13:20 < catphish> jpa-: i'd say it was acceleration, to a (complicated) extent
2022-05-22T23:13:56 < jpa-> i would say it is velocity + hardware lowpass
2022-05-22T23:14:30 < catphish> i'd say it was acceleration with hardware dampening!
2022-05-22T23:14:42 < jpa-> when you command higher velocity, of course acceleration initially increases too
2022-05-22T23:15:33 < jpa-> but if output stays high, acceleration immediately starts decreasing
2022-05-22T23:15:42 < catphish> but... rotor speed is force, and force is acceleration
2022-05-22T23:16:04 < catphish> this isn't speed of a wheel on land, it's a propeller
2022-05-22T23:16:11 < catphish> it applies a force
2022-05-22T23:16:28 < jpa-> which provides the stability that D^2 term would for pure acceleration/torque output
2022-05-22T23:16:50 < catphish> surely rotor velocity ~= torque
2022-05-22T23:17:03 < jpa-> rotor speed is force only with constant airspeed
2022-05-22T23:17:37 < jpa-> when you accelerate, force decreases if rotor speed stays same
2022-05-22T23:17:54 < catphish> yes i suppose that's true
2022-05-22T23:18:30 < catphish> i'll concede it's somewhere between the two
2022-05-22T23:18:37 < jpa-> whereas with motor current, the torque stays same even as sppeed=voltage increases
2022-05-22T23:19:38 < jpa-> and first derivative of position cannot detect increasing speed
2022-05-22T23:20:58 < jpa-> usually the point of D and D2 terms is to provide the stability so that P and I terms can be increased
2022-05-22T23:30:14 < jpa-> when you have    acceleration = rotor speed * A - airspeed * B, that gives orientation = I(airspeed) = I(pid_out - A/B acceleration) = I(pid_out - A/B D^2(orientation))  so basically hardware D2 term with value that may or may not be suitable
2022-05-22T23:32:28 < kaki> evenings
2022-05-22T23:32:35 < kaki> what are you guise screwing?
2022-05-22T23:48:56 < catphish> jpa-: but you don't need to *detect* increasing speed (acceleration) since you set it
2022-05-22T23:49:35 < catphish> you detect position and velocity, acceleration you control directly
2022-05-22T23:56:12 < upgrdman> adc pros: looks like stm32f7 VREF+ can be 1.2V below VDD. so with 3.3V VDD, it can go down to 2.1V. anyone know of a cheap external reference that can toggle between 3.3V and 2.1A?
2022-05-22T23:59:04 < upgrdman> or anyone know if voltage divider + mosfet to short out part of the divider is clean enough for supplying VREF+
--- Day changed ma touko 23 2022
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2022-05-23T00:11:39 < zyp> jpa-, is linuxcnc the shit if I want to integrate with existing open source software?
2022-05-23T00:12:46 < karlp> upgrdman: just run system at 2.1V?
2022-05-23T00:17:02 < upgrdman> karlp, want to change it dynamically. for when i need to measure lower voltages than normal
2022-05-23T00:26:45 < karlp> you're starting to run into the "do I really want to try and keep using the onboard adc?" at this point IMO
2022-05-23T00:33:39 < jadew> Steffanx, I just read about monkeypox
2022-05-23T00:34:01 < jadew> doesn't seem as bad as covid, but who knows...
2022-05-23T00:36:36 < jadew> the fact that it's not contagious during the incubation period will probably make it more manageable
2022-05-23T00:40:52 < jadew> if we keep getting plagues every year, I'll move to an isolated island and become a pig farmer
2022-05-23T00:43:39 < Steffanx> Jadew forgot about the swine flu outbreak in 2009
2022-05-23T00:44:14 < jadew> I'll grow healthy pigs
2022-05-23T00:44:44 < jadew> also, pretty sure I had the swine flu, so I'm good
2022-05-23T00:45:43 < jadew> are you worried about monkeypox?
2022-05-23T00:46:01 < jadew> apparently we have treatments available
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2022-05-23T00:46:53 < upgrdman> nice. i piggybacked another 1117 regulator on top of my main reg, and used it to power just VREF+, and the noise is already much lower. will try with a low-noise LDO, time to place to a digikey order
2022-05-23T00:46:54 < upgrdman> http://farrellf.com/temp/stm32f7_separate_vrefp.jpg
2022-05-23T01:01:10 < kaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvckweOqjdk
2022-05-23T01:04:43 < qyx> upgrdman: the layout is not optimal, hardly any via stitching
2022-05-23T01:04:57 < qyx> there is no proper gnd
2022-05-23T01:05:15 < upgrdman> qyx, sure but my problems are not high freq
2022-05-23T01:05:36 < upgrdman> and this is a first prototype, will redo it with several small changes
2022-05-23T01:06:18 < qyx> it is not about having or not having hf noise
2022-05-23T01:06:45 < upgrdman> qyx, and if you're worried about stitching, you're going to die when you see the deadbug shit i had to do because the package i wanted was sold out for months  http://farrellf.com/temp/stm32f7_12_channel_oscilloscope.jpg
2022-05-23T01:06:46 < qyx> one via for both input and output caps and the ldo together is simply not enough
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2022-05-23T02:14:23 < englishman> nice
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2022-05-23T07:44:46 < upgrdman> it really is "eye opening" to see just how much side-channel data is leaked via power consumption. probing my stm32f7's VDD rail makes it so obvious what's going on. i can see when the core is active, when USB packets are transmitting, even when USB packets are dropped! no need for status LEDs, lol.
2022-05-23T07:45:19 < upgrdman> of course, my firmware is super simple right now, it would not be so obvious with the firmware was complicated
2022-05-23T08:46:52 < jpa-> zyp: yes, linuxcnc is IMO the best option for a plasma cutter, because it gives direct control from gcode unlike e.g. ROS
2022-05-23T08:48:08 < jpa-> catphish: no, the acceleration control has some hardware delay and inaccuracies, so having a feedback component that measures it makes it possible to make it drive harder at start and reduce the output when it actually starts accelerating
2022-05-23T08:50:06 < jpa-> catphish: but of course all of this depends on the actual system and needed response times
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2022-05-23T09:07:40 < jpa-> zyp: machinekit (a linuxcnc modernization fork) may be worth looking into also, IIRC it uses protobuf messages internally already
2022-05-23T09:09:13 < jpa-> https://github.com/machinekit/machinetalk-protobuf/tree/master/src/machinetalk/protobuf  though i haven't been able to understand what the messages actually do :)
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2022-05-23T09:23:07 < zyp> I think I read something about machinekit starting out promising, before dying off
2022-05-23T09:24:05 < jpa-> i haven't really found out what they have accomplished and what not
2022-05-23T09:24:46 < jpa-> whereas linuxcnc still seems to have useful stuff added, like the non-linear kinematics support in 2.8
2022-05-23T09:28:38 < jpa-> the annoying part of linuxcnc is that it is really a big box of parts to build your CNC control system; i've always ended up writing a lot of custom HAL code in that weird netlist language that has no official graphical editor
2022-05-23T09:29:05 < zyp> I don't really like the idea of having a bunch of realtime stuff running under linux
2022-05-23T09:29:43 < jpa-> https://github.com/HacklabJKL/sergei_cnc2/blob/main/linuxcnc/config/hal_power_ctrl.hal    with the amount of LUTs i'm it starts to feel like greenpak-tier manual synthesis :D
2022-05-23T09:30:06 < jpa-> i don't mind 1kHz realtime under linux, it really works pretty well
2022-05-23T09:31:12 < jpa-> and it is lovely easy to have good UI to hardware response time - position shown on screen is realtime, no latency from pressing pause, trivial recovery from servo following errors etc.
2022-05-23T09:31:16 < zyp> maybe you can have yosys synthesise for it :p
2022-05-23T09:31:47 < zyp> hmm, that's true
2022-05-23T09:32:05 < jpa-> https://www.forum.linuxcnc.org/24-hal-components/42506-kicad-to-hal   i kind of liked this, but the need to sequence the order where components execute their computations made it annoying also
2022-05-23T09:32:20 < zyp> would you use it for a 3d printer?
2022-05-23T09:32:52 < jpa-> i would if i could dedicate a PC for controlling it
2022-05-23T09:33:09 < zyp> it runs on a rpi, doesn't it?
2022-05-23T09:33:09 < jpa-> but there is nice simplicity in the standalone 3D printer controllers that read from SD card
2022-05-23T09:33:28 < jpa-> yes, i think it does
2022-05-23T09:33:40 < zyp> I've never used those, always used octoprint on a rpi or something
2022-05-23T09:34:45 < jpa-> though klipper is nice also, in that it permits using very low cost hardware for implementing the PC-to-motors interface
2022-05-23T09:35:26 < zyp> yeah, klipper is kinda similar to what my stuff is doing
2022-05-23T09:36:04 < jpa-> and klipper has those high-order vibration compensation things built-in, which is useful for flimsy 3D printer mechanisms; in linuxcnc you would be building that out of biquad filter components manually :)
2022-05-23T09:36:20 < zyp> haha
2022-05-23T09:37:24 < zyp> what would be the easiest way of interfacing my custom servo controller to linuxcnc?
2022-05-23T09:38:06 < jpa-> you would create a HAL component that has input pin "target-velocity" and output pins "actual-velocity" and "actual-position"
2022-05-23T09:38:25 < zyp> with a G4-based controller, I guess FD-CAN is the most suitable interface
2022-05-23T09:38:55 < jpa-> ideally the HAL component would be able to run inside linux kernel and the communication latency would be less than 0.1ms
2022-05-23T09:39:31 < zyp> i.e. a kernel driver, not libusb?
2022-05-23T09:39:47 < jpa-> yeah
2022-05-23T09:40:00 < zyp> that sounds less fun :)
2022-05-23T09:40:43 < jpa-> but you could get started with testing with a simple userspace python script:  import hal   c = hal.component('myservö́')  c.newpin('actual-position', hal.HAL_FLOAT, hal.HAL_OUT)  while True: c['actual-position'] = read_pos()
2022-05-23T09:41:06 < zyp> oh, yeah, that'd work
2022-05-23T09:41:12 < jpa-> it won't have the guaranteed realtime part to it, but easy to try if the overall interaction feels good
2022-05-23T09:43:02 < jpa-> IIRC the realtime-USB interface in linux kernel is new enough that no linuxcnc drivers currently use it
2022-05-23T09:44:36 < jpa-> i guess because you are able to run the position loop on the hardware, you could manage fine even without actual realtime communication
2022-05-23T09:45:07 < jpa-> i.e.  myservo.target-position  and   myservo.actual-position    and no PID loop in linuxcnc
2022-05-23T09:45:31 < zyp> makes sense
2022-05-23T09:46:17 < jpa-> i'm not sure if you could somehow easily stream (timestamp, position) pairs into userland, so that you could buffer a few millisecond's worth of them
2022-05-23T09:46:57 < jpa-> otherwise there is a risk that userland hangs for a tiny time and you miss position samples in the middle
2022-05-23T09:47:40 < zyp> linuxcnc sounds worth exploring, either way :)
2022-05-23T09:48:21 < zyp> what hardware should I run it on?
2022-05-23T09:49:24 < jpa-> a lot of the guides focus on getting the 100+kHz realtime performance needed to drive steppers directly, but for your use case, i would just pick whatever is otherwise suitable for the task
2022-05-23T09:49:42 < jpa-> e.g. what kind of display you want to use for controlling, do you want to be able to run CAD programs on the same computer
2022-05-23T09:51:06 < zyp> makes sense
2022-05-23T09:52:27 < zyp> I was given an old workstation with a 3770 recently (i.e. same cpu that I've got in my workstation), that I haven't used for anything yet, so I guess I'll just grab that
2022-05-23T09:52:38 < jpa-> oh, and linuxcnc does already have realtime ethernet drivers, so that is one option; the code doesn't look particularly difficult, most of the lines seem to be about handling hardware variants   https://github.com/LinuxCNC/linuxcnc/blob/master/src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/hm2_eth.c#L990-L1015
2022-05-23T09:53:26 < zyp> this is for the mesa stuff, isn't it?
2022-05-23T09:53:41 < jpa-> yeah - you would have custom one of course
2022-05-23T09:53:51 < jpa-> basically just sending layer 2 ethernet frames
2022-05-23T09:54:17 < zyp> hmm, I wonder how it'd work on the kunbus stuff
2022-05-23T10:01:20 < zyp> I mean, the kunbus stuff has a good form factor and a bunch of IO options, so it could work well if performance is decent
2022-05-23T10:01:36 < jpa-> the situation of realtime usb on linux is funny, it has been implemented at least twice (https://www.rtai.org/userfiles/downloads/RTAICONTRIB/ https://sourceforge.net/projects/usb20rt.berlios/) but never managed to get to upstream kernel so it always rots out
2022-05-23T10:01:44 < zyp> haha
2022-05-23T10:10:33 < zyp> is there any sort of CAN support in linuxcnc? canopen or something maybe?
2022-05-23T10:13:28 < zyp> google seems to suggest there's some support for some ethercat to canopen adapters, but those are $$$
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2022-05-23T10:21:58 < jpa-> https://yannik520.github.io/sdio/block_write_operation.png   meh, i cannot find where the format of the "crc ok response from card" is specified
2022-05-23T10:30:19 < zyp> I would guess it's R1b as per page 111 in the spec
2022-05-23T10:31:34 < zyp> although that happens on CMD, not DAT
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2022-05-23T10:37:22 < qyx> huh ordering some alu profiles, price increased to 210% since Dec 2020
2022-05-23T10:38:13 < zyp> jpa-, I suspect the actual format is shown in section 4.12
2022-05-23T10:38:27 < zyp> «This section is a blank in the Simplified Specification.»
2022-05-23T10:39:08 < jpa-> nice
2022-05-23T10:39:58 < jpa-> https://www.researchgate.net/figure/CRC-Ok-response-for-data-10_fig3_333007418   this looks relevant
2022-05-23T10:40:43 < zyp> http://my-cool-projects.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-mysterious-sd-card-crc-status.html
2022-05-23T10:41:23 < zyp> hmm
2022-05-23T10:41:30 < zyp> «And finally, in section 7.3.3.1, I found a section entitled "Data Response Token."» section 7 is SPI mode though
2022-05-23T10:43:16 < zyp> ah, it's the same three status bits, just in a byte vs a 5-bit token
2022-05-23T10:44:10 < jpa-> thanks, that is useful
2022-05-23T11:36:53 < srk> zyp: no, there's a fun issue tho https://github.com/machinekit/machinekit/issues/589 tldr hard to develop against blackboxes
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2022-05-23T14:12:27 < jpa-> haha, because of how SDIO CRC of 0x00 is 0x00, if you start a WRITE_MULTIPLE_BLOCK command, write the start nibble of 0000 and just keep running the clock but never change the data bits, it ends up overwriting entire SD card with 0 bytes - every block has valid checksum
2022-05-23T14:12:44 < jpa-> at least i think that is what happened
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2022-05-23T14:45:10 < Steffanx>  Uh what... ?!
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2022-05-23T18:03:26 < zyp> haha, nice
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2022-05-23T23:00:55 < qyx> zyp:  New account registrations are currently disabled :(
2022-05-23T23:02:04 < zyp> yeah
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--- Day changed ti touko 24 2022
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2022-05-24T00:48:05 < HelloShitty> karlp: 
2022-05-24T00:48:08 < HelloShitty> xD
2022-05-24T00:54:38  * karlp waves
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2022-05-24T00:57:43 < kaki> hello night crew
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2022-05-24T13:11:20 < mawk> I got asked to diagnostic a dead server, I have a slight idea why it's dead https://imgur.com/a/aDcR4jO
2022-05-24T13:12:55 < karlp> coffee?
2022-05-24T13:18:06 < mawk> maybe
2022-05-24T13:18:08 < mawk> or rat piss
2022-05-24T13:18:14 < mawk> it was sitting in a server room somewhere, with hopefully nobody around
2022-05-24T13:18:18 < karlp> .... where do you keep your servers?
2022-05-24T13:18:36 < mawk> in the basement of train stations
2022-05-24T13:18:47 < mawk> these places are full of rats
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2022-05-24T13:19:01 < karlp> coffee happens when shit tier admins walk i angry with their morning coffee to "fix things" and put it down on the rack beside where they're working and then knock it over.
2022-05-24T13:19:29 < mawk> lol
2022-05-24T13:19:46 < mawk> the only person with access to it is the manager of the train station
2022-05-24T13:19:51 < mawk> but he's not supposed to go in the server room
2022-05-24T13:20:03 < mawk> although one time I saw one using the server room as a prayer room
2022-05-24T13:20:11 < mawk> maybe he spilled his mint tea
2022-05-24T13:40:32 < Steffanx> Did you kick his ass while he was on his knees?
2022-05-24T14:17:34 -!- witx [~witx@193.137.28.238] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
2022-05-24T14:49:53 < mawk> lol no
2022-05-24T14:50:00 < mawk> he offered me mint teat
2022-05-24T14:50:02 < mawk> tea 
2022-05-24T14:50:05 < mawk> he was speaking french
2022-05-24T14:50:11 < mawk> guy from morocco
2022-05-24T14:50:17 < BrainDamage> mint tea is great
2022-05-24T14:50:29 < BrainDamage> but the guys drink it burning hot even in the summers
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2022-05-24T16:34:47 < Mangy_Dog> https://twitter.com/MD_Builds/status/1529087583157993473
2022-05-24T16:43:49 < srk> :D it just needs a special crossed USB cable
2022-05-24T16:44:13 < Mangy_Dog> :p
2022-05-24T16:44:29 < Mangy_Dog> thats not a..... totaly batshit insane idea
2022-05-24T16:44:53 < Mangy_Dog> i mean i ONLY use this usb port to put the sound effects onto the audio chip... once thats done. The data side to the port is no longer needed
2022-05-24T16:44:56 < Mangy_Dog> its a charging port after that
2022-05-24T16:46:05 < karlp> have you learnt your lesson yet? :)
2022-05-24T16:46:07 < srk> :))
2022-05-24T16:46:19 < Mangy_Dog> dont rush the pcb design?
2022-05-24T16:46:26 < Mangy_Dog> i honestly thought id didnt :(
2022-05-24T16:46:39 < karlp> and "those ERC rules violations should actually be looked at..."
2022-05-24T16:46:50 < Mangy_Dog> oh that
2022-05-24T16:46:50 < karlp> you already said you just ignored all teh warnings kicad gave you :)
2022-05-24T16:46:55 < Mangy_Dog> well yes
2022-05-24T16:47:09 < Mangy_Dog> ive already learnt that one and will be fully going through drcc properly from now
2022-05-24T16:47:12 < Mangy_Dog> however
2022-05-24T16:47:20 < Mangy_Dog> no drc check would have caught the usb back to front
2022-05-24T16:48:05 < karlp> none of the built in ones, no...
2022-05-24T16:48:43 < jpa-> nowadays i feel that trying to verify is useless, just need to make small enough proto batch
2022-05-24T16:49:13 < Mangy_Dog> tbh this
2022-05-24T16:49:22 < Mangy_Dog> i really should have done a single proto order first
2022-05-24T16:49:27 < Mangy_Dog> without population
2022-05-24T16:49:39 < Mangy_Dog> just built it logged up all the errors then ordered the big batch
2022-05-24T16:49:52 < Mangy_Dog> this is all on me
2022-05-24T16:50:16 < jpa-> it also helps if you never get beyond the single prototype phase
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2022-05-24T16:52:21 < karlp> lol
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2022-05-24T19:31:44 < bitmask> hi hi
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2022-05-24T19:58:06 < Steffanx> Lo lo
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2022-05-24T20:06:55 < emeb> z z
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--- Day changed ke touko 25 2022
2022-05-25T00:01:35 -!- Posterdati [~posterdat@user/Posterdati] has joined ##stm32
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2022-05-25T00:02:11 < kaki> early bros
2022-05-25T00:06:29 < Steffanx> Time for some early music kaki ?
2022-05-25T00:06:59 < kaki> hit it
2022-05-25T00:07:54 < Steffanx> https://youtu.be/xTQ7XgplC1o
2022-05-25T00:35:02 < Steffanx> Lol kaki is impressed 👏
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2022-05-25T00:39:14 < kaki> na
2022-05-25T00:48:01 < Steffanx> Haha I'm not surprised. Doom metal or something.  And a band name like "funeral fuck" .. lol
2022-05-25T00:49:58 < kaki> wasn't this here by sauce already
2022-05-25T00:50:09 < kaki> at least something from sme artist
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2022-05-25T01:00:55 < Steffanx> Idk
2022-05-25T01:01:03 < Steffanx> I probably closed it instantly 
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2022-05-25T02:32:36 < sauce> nope
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2022-05-25T18:52:17 < karlp> fucking usb-c max voltage on cc pins is 2.18V.
2022-05-25T18:52:31 < karlp> max voltage on chip input pins are vddio+0.3
2022-05-25T18:52:33 < mawk> why do you need more?
2022-05-25T18:52:35 < mawk> ah
2022-05-25T18:52:49 < karlp> vreg - accuracy gives me a 100mV window where I could feasible blow up pins :)
2022-05-25T18:52:51 < mawk> bodge a fet inside
2022-05-25T18:53:21 < karlp> it's ok, have a solution for final with parallel resistors to give me a lower tapoff voltage.
2022-05-25T18:53:33 < zyp> what are you even doing?
2022-05-25T18:53:53 < karlp> 1.8V mcu detecting cable orientation via ADC on the cc pins..
2022-05-25T18:54:03 < mawk> why cable orientation?
2022-05-25T18:54:06 < mawk> isn't is supposed to be reversible?
2022-05-25T18:54:17 < karlp> yes, but how do you think the reversability works?
2022-05-25T18:54:24 < zyp> haha
2022-05-25T18:55:04 < mawk> by connecting together opposite pins I thought
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2022-05-25T18:55:23 < zyp> that's the cheap way, only suitable for usb2 signals
2022-05-25T18:55:29 < zyp> usb3 uses active muxes
2022-05-25T18:55:33 < mawk> a
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2022-05-25T18:58:59 < mawk> my work forces me to work on esp32
2022-05-25T18:59:03 < mawk> I think it's a reason for quitting
2022-05-25T19:13:46 < Steffanx> I heard esp32 is great
2022-05-25T19:13:59 < Steffanx> And isn't it c++ minded?
2022-05-25T19:15:45 < mawk> it's ardweeeeno shit so it's C++ yes
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2022-05-25T19:55:17 < srk> pinSetAF         p gpio_af9 -- All CAN peripherals connect to af9
2022-05-25T19:55:33 < srk> except for CAN3 which is af11
2022-05-25T19:55:36 < srk> fun one
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2022-05-25T22:39:38 < catphish> morning
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2022-05-25T23:26:56 < Steffanx> Gooday sir
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--- Day changed to touko 26 2022
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2022-05-26T02:12:23 < kaki> night crew
2022-05-26T02:18:41 < catphish> evening
2022-05-26T02:20:22 < kaki> is there box news catphish?
2022-05-26T02:21:43 < catphish> no
2022-05-26T02:21:56 < catphish> today i installed a vacuum pump and fretted about cooling header tanks
2022-05-26T02:22:49 < kaki> all kind of tubes and wires need to be installed right
2022-05-26T02:23:14 < catphish> brake vacuum pump in fuel tank space https://i.imgur.com/ti54Oi3.jpg - slightly worried how loud it will be
2022-05-26T02:23:45 < catphish> cooling system - https://i.imgur.com/TNJfnW7.jpg - worries about how best to get air out and coolant in
2022-05-26T02:26:21 < kaki> nice
2022-05-26T02:27:17 < kaki> for installing random cables and hoses there are such things that have sticky 2sided tape and hole through for zip tie
2022-05-26T02:29:41 < kaki> also zip ties that have anchor thing dat goes in drill hole
2022-05-26T02:30:21 < kaki> suxh things that hold wiring harness in virtually any automobiles
2022-05-26T02:30:57 < kaki> https://www.joom.com/en/products/5d5e5fe48b2c3701019321f3
2022-05-26T02:31:06 < kaki> random shop
2022-05-26T02:31:48 < kaki> https://www.amazon.com/Adhesive-Backed-Mounts-Nova-Supply-Professional-Grade/dp/B06XNBS6TG
2022-05-26T02:33:12 < kaki> I think you can get both from local auto shop
2022-05-26T02:34:13 < Steffanx> Sticky ones suck arse.
2022-05-26T02:34:23 < Steffanx> Won't hold.
2022-05-26T02:34:39 < kaki> ye
2022-05-26T02:34:59 < kaki> but the chinesium ones do
2022-05-26T02:35:22 < kaki> got a big bag from ebay once
2022-05-26T02:36:01 < kaki> very suspisious didn't look legit.. smaller than "legit" ones
2022-05-26T02:37:09 < kaki> "legit" ones have such glue that dries out
2022-05-26T02:37:52 < kaki> then the whole wire falls down
2022-05-26T02:40:26 < kaki> I think there is a reason why in automotive use they stick to using mechanically locked solutions
2022-05-26T02:46:26 < kaki> they might use some glued ones for short distances when there is only couple of wires
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2022-05-26T09:23:54 < upgrdman> stm32f7 pros: for OTG HS, does DMA help? it works great with DMA disabled, but with it enabled, USB won't even enumerate. I googled, and tried disabling the DCACHE, but that didn't help.
2022-05-26T09:25:08 < upgrdman> i can't quite transfer 10.4MBps from the MCU to PC. that's only 83.2Mbps, well below what USB 2.0 HS can do!?
2022-05-26T09:25:51 < upgrdman> anyone been able to transfer >80Mbps with an STM32 and OTG HS?
2022-05-26T09:36:16 < qyx> Steffanx: they work if you clean and degrease the material properly
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2022-05-26T10:54:05 < jpa-> upgrdman: IIRC i got about 30 Mbyte/s with chibios + STM32H7 even without USB DMA
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2022-05-26T11:56:48 < zyp> I'd expect the CPU to be able to easily saturate HS if it doesn't have too much other stuff to do, the point of DMA is to leave the CPU free to do other stuff than shovel data into the USB peripheral
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2022-05-26T16:26:54 < zyp> jpa-, in your motor controller, how do you do ADC triggering?
2022-05-26T16:28:20 < Steffanx> Yeah qyx, the adhesive is still there, the plastic part is still on the cable :P the adhesive and plastic part separated 
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2022-05-26T17:34:17 < Xogium> so.. here's a probably dumb question but me not knowing about how light and all of that works means I must ask :D
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2022-05-26T17:35:24 < Xogium> in theory, if I have a device which has a led that lights up under certain conditions, could I somehow use a light sensor focused exclusively on that led, maybe taping it on or something, and convert the lighting up into vibration with something like an arduino ?
2022-05-26T17:37:13 < Xogium> for more context this would be for my pcm recorder. It uses a led that lights up to indicate that you just went over the peak level, which is -12 db fs by default. That led stays on for a few seconds then goes off
2022-05-26T17:37:25 < Xogium> meaning, lower your input gain
2022-05-26T17:39:40 < Xogium> I'd use headphones to monitor in realtime usually, but since I do binaural recordings, I can,t do that, the mics are right next to my ears and having headphones in = giant feedback loop, obviously
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2022-05-26T17:46:09 < PaulFertser> Xogium: you do not need an arduino for that, a much simple circuit would work.
2022-05-26T17:46:23 < Xogium> PaulFertser: oh ?
2022-05-26T17:46:47 < Xogium> thought arduino was required for vibration, since I thought that required pwm
2022-05-26T17:47:51 < PaulFertser> Xogium: vibration is often performed by a small DC motor with a non-symmetric weight attached.
2022-05-26T17:48:19 < PaulFertser> So such a motor connected in series with a photodiode might do the trick.
2022-05-26T17:48:29 < Xogium> ah, interesting. Learn something new every day
2022-05-26T17:49:14 < PaulFertser> Or rather bipolar phototransistor.
2022-05-26T17:50:11 < Xogium> hmm
2022-05-26T17:51:04 < Xogium> so I could just tape this transistor on the recorder or something, so it would only react to the level leds ?
2022-05-26T17:51:55 < Xogium> obviously it would need some kind of battery to run everything but
2022-05-26T17:53:26 < BrainDamage> a dc motor needs pwm only for speed control
2022-05-26T17:53:54 < Xogium> ah, right. Yeah that wouldn't be needed here, the led doesn't get brighter the louder the sounds are
2022-05-26T17:55:18 < Steffanx> This reminds me of jpa- 's professional solution "Automatic fume removal trigger for JBC soldering station
2022-05-26T17:55:18 < Steffanx> "
2022-05-26T17:55:33 < Xogium> huh, does it ?
2022-05-26T17:56:29 < Steffanx> Which was also just a tiny pcb mounted on top of the led of the soldering station 
2022-05-26T17:56:45 < Xogium> hehe
2022-05-26T17:57:15 < BrainDamage> I wanted to measure my electric meter's consumption that way, but you're forbidden to attach anything to it
2022-05-26T17:57:38 < Steffanx> A pcb with a photodiode, comparator and fet (and some additional stuff ofcourse)
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2022-05-26T18:07:47 < Xogium> I almost entertained the idea that I could do a bit the same thing with the charging led. But the problem here is that it lights up orange when charging, and green when fully charged. I think detecting a color change is probably a lot harder
2022-05-26T18:16:04 < BrainDamage> you can use two pieces of transparent plastic colored green/red as filters
2022-05-26T18:17:00 < Xogium> so having it vibrate or beep when fully charge but not otherwise.. Hmm
2022-05-26T18:18:09 < Xogium> yeah I should try this
2022-05-26T18:20:09 < upgrdman> jpa-, weird, ok. i guess my usb is slow for some other reason. maybe my transfer size is weird and it results in 1 big + 1 small usb packet, wasting a lot of bandwidth.
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2022-05-26T18:54:33 < zyp> upgrdman, yeah, could be poor scheduling, or just too much other shit on the bus competing for capacity
2022-05-26T18:55:16 < zyp> a bus analyzer helps a lot in diagnosing throughput, since it'll capture all the flow control tokens as well
2022-05-26T18:55:32 < upgrdman> k
2022-05-26T18:55:46 < upgrdman> how $ are bus anal's?
2022-05-26T18:56:25 < zyp> https://www.totalphase.com/products/beagle-usb480/ $1295
2022-05-26T18:57:02 < zyp> if you've got a test case that runs on any hardware I've got, I can test it for you
2022-05-26T19:03:51 < upgrdman> thanks. i'll do some more testing to see if there's anything i can figure out first.
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2022-05-26T20:07:08 < upgrdman> is there an easy way to place a variable at some location, without editing the linker script?
2022-05-26T20:08:50 < emeb> I suppose you could do it the same way that we give hardware registers a name.
2022-05-26T20:10:14 < emeb> but that ends up treating them like pointers which isn't quite what you want
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2022-05-26T21:28:44 < jpa-> meh, wife and i have been driving supposedly identical diy ebikes for several years now
2022-05-26T21:29:08 < jpa-> today she asked for some firmware fixes which i made and tested on her bike, then applied and tested on my bike
2022-05-26T21:29:20 < jpa-> started wondering why mine seemed to have a lot less torque
2022-05-26T21:29:57 < jpa-> did acceleration test with wheel in the air:  http://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/ebike_motor_accel_test.png     i can accept the motor A vs. B difference, B is much older
2022-05-26T21:30:23 < jpa-> but... looks like i have assembled 5mohm shunts on ESC A, and 10mohm on ESC B
2022-05-26T21:30:29 < zyp> haha
2022-05-26T21:31:57 < jpa-> only took 3 years to notice that i have been driving 125W ebike around
2022-05-26T21:32:20 < jpa-> also explains how i was getting such excellent battery life out of used cells - 200Wh nominal capacity and 250+Wh actual
2022-05-26T21:32:33 < jpa-> "actual".. measured with 2x error in current shunt :)
2022-05-26T21:33:48 < zyp> so about ADC triggering? I figure the obvious solution is to use the timer update event to trigger in the middle of the low period, but what happens then if one of the channels approaches 100% duty?
2022-05-26T21:34:14 < jpa-> easy solution is to not let it go over 90% duty
2022-05-26T21:34:27 < zyp> yeah
2022-05-26T21:34:51 < jpa-> fancy solution is to just put ACS711 on the phases instead of trying to measure with low-side shunts, it really saves a lot of trouble
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2022-05-26T21:36:05 < zyp> and I guess the other solution is something like if(duty_x > too_high) current_x = -(current_y + current_z);
2022-05-26T21:36:22 < jpa-> oh, you are measuring all phases? yeah, that will work
2022-05-26T21:36:34 < zyp> I think it's triple shunt, yes
2022-05-26T21:36:36 < jpa-> i usually measure only two phases and get annoyed by bias errors causing trouble
2022-05-26T21:36:41 < zyp> :)
2022-05-26T21:37:19 < zyp> hmm, ACS711 got integrated shunt too?
2022-05-26T21:37:35 < jpa-> ACS711 measures with hall effect
2022-05-26T21:37:57 < jpa-> it's basically just a wire with hall sensor chip stacked on top and calibrated
2022-05-26T21:38:04 < zyp> ah, right
2022-05-26T21:38:19 < jpa-> nice 1mohm resistance
2022-05-26T21:38:21 < zyp> hmm, 25A and 31A
2022-05-26T21:38:38 < qyx> ism't INA + shumt easier and cheaper?
2022-05-26T21:38:51 < jpa-> if your operating voltage is low enough for INA
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2022-05-26T21:40:39 < jpa-> availability is a bit poor, but ACS711 is very simple to use and costs just 1 EUR or so   https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Allegro-MicroSystems/ACS711KEXLT-31AB-T?qs=pUKx8fyJudBbt%2Few5xsbhQ%3D%3D
2022-05-26T21:47:04 < zyp> hmm, how do I calculate how much current I need to rate the power electronics for? e.g. if I've got a 240W motor with a nominal 48V supply, that's nominally 5A at the supply at max power
2022-05-26T21:48:27 < jpa-> if that gives you enough torque, it is a safe current you can probably run the motor at 100% duty
2022-05-26T21:48:47 < jpa-> but if you want more torque for short times for startup etc, you can aim for 2x-5x that
2022-05-26T21:49:16 < zyp> i.e. peak vs continous current ratings?
2022-05-26T21:49:27 < jpa-> yeah
2022-05-26T21:50:08 < zyp> and the transistors will see the same current at the given torque at any speed, just lower pwm duty at lower speeds?
2022-05-26T21:50:39 < jpa-> yeah
2022-05-26T21:50:42 < zyp> i.e. more lowside, current, less highside current
2022-05-26T21:50:50 < zyp> on average
2022-05-26T21:51:05 < jpa-> true
2022-05-26T21:51:22 < jpa-> one important exception is if you do 000 braking, i.e. all phases to GND - then the current can grow very large
2022-05-26T21:52:11 < zyp> yeah, I tried that on the EVSPIN32G, tripped the OCP right away :)
2022-05-26T21:54:41 < zyp> this stuff all reminds me a bit of $oldjob, where we were doing current control of solenoids
2022-05-26T21:56:35 < zyp> normal nominal 24V solenoids, except we were driving them from a 48V supply with closed loop current control, to get a faster opening action before reducing to a reasonable hold current
2022-05-26T21:57:24 < zyp> and since the magnet moving in the solenoid also creates BEMF, we could measure opening time as well, or detect stuck valves
2022-05-26T21:57:38 < zyp> (and short or open coils)
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2022-05-26T22:05:08 < qyx> jpa-: wait what it was like 5€ in the past
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2022-05-26T22:33:52 < jpa-> qyx: yeah, the price seems to vary quite a bit between variants
2022-05-26T22:34:14 < jpa-> IIRC the ones i bought in so-8 were 2 EUR back then, but can't find them in stock now anywhere
2022-05-26T22:34:33 < zyp> do you need anything more elaborate than a single low side transistor to drive a breaking resistor, or is it enough to just rely on bus capacitance for filtering?
2022-05-26T22:34:59 < zyp> braking resistor*
2022-05-26T22:35:58 < jpa-> you can calculate the total kinetic energy in your system and from that how much voltage will rise
2022-05-26T22:36:40 < jpa-> for small power stuff i have used TVS diodes, but they have their joule limit also
2022-05-26T22:40:23 < qyx> what is zyp innovating?
2022-05-26T22:40:32 < qyx> motor control for what?
2022-05-26T22:47:30 < zyp> anything
2022-05-26T22:48:50 < qyx> that's quite specific
2022-05-26T22:49:30 < qyx> also jpa-, what bike range do you get from that 200 Wh pack?
2022-05-26T22:49:36 < zyp> well, yeah, there's several points to this
2022-05-26T22:50:31 < jpa-> qyx: in winter i typically use 5-10Wh/km, in summer 2-5Wh/km
2022-05-26T22:50:35 < zyp> the main purpose of this is because I want to learn motor control
2022-05-26T22:50:53 < jpa-> once i drove 160km on the 200Wh pack but i only used it for the hills then
2022-05-26T22:51:42 < zyp> I recently did a motor control project at work by slapping an EVSPIN32G4 in a box and loading some SDK generated shit code
2022-05-26T22:51:43 < qyx> I like what you are all doing, zyp, jpa-, catphish
2022-05-26T22:51:51 < qyx> I hope I will use your hard work in the future :P
2022-05-26T22:52:16 < qyx> to drive my tractor
2022-05-26T22:52:41 < zyp> nice hardware, but I hated working with the ST SDK, so a secondary goal is that I want some motor control code I can reuse for stuff in the future
2022-05-26T22:53:33 < zyp> and then to have something concrete to develop now, I want to make a servo drive suitable for the CNC plasma cutter I want to build
2022-05-26T22:54:29 < zyp> oh, and I'll probably also run it on the robot arm, eventually
2022-05-26T23:02:51 < zyp> jpa-, I'm thinking in a multi-drive setup, braking could be handled by a dedicated braking controller hooked to the common power and control buses
2022-05-26T23:04:00 < zyp> braking controller could both monitor bus voltage, and sum up currents reported by the drives
2022-05-26T23:07:29 < catphish> qyx: thanks :)
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2022-05-26T23:28:21 < emeb> big clive just did a YT video about all the lithium batteries he's collecting from discarded vape pens that he picks up in the city where he's working.
2022-05-26T23:29:03 < emeb> Someone should start bundling those into packs and sell them for ebikes
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2022-05-26T23:30:48 < jpa-> i've heard claims that li-ions that fail tests get sold for such single use devices
2022-05-26T23:38:10 < karlp> sounds pretty plausible...
2022-05-26T23:42:12 < zyp> rechargable cells in single use devices? required for the discharge current capacity?
2022-05-26T23:45:43 < karlp> no, just capitalism at work.
2022-05-26T23:46:30 < karlp> turns out you can just put the same design in a fixed form factor and cheap out on all the internals and sell them to vapers "on the move" who left their primary somewhere, or to have different fluids or shit.
2022-05-26T23:47:06 < karlp> and presumably yes, getting enough current capability is probably why they didn't try and use shitty primary cells
--- Day changed pe touko 27 2022
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2022-05-27T01:24:06 < Steffanx> Because you like rammstein and tits kaki: https://youtu.be/thJgU9jkdU4
2022-05-27T01:26:37 < kaki> it's about great tits?
2022-05-27T01:27:29 < Steffanx> Big, yea.
2022-05-27T01:30:48 < kaki> I rather listen old rammstein
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2022-05-27T02:02:09 < Steffanx> Hah yeah 
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2022-05-27T14:44:08 < karlp> wrt to wednesday's usb-c Rd pulldowns: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/zbVgF.png
2022-05-27T14:45:04 < karlp> I wonder if it would be better to juse split the 5.1 directly though...
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2022-05-27T14:47:33 < karlp> hrm, probably better honestly, 470+4k7 is two less parts, same bom lines...
2022-05-27T14:53:29 < karlp> hrm, no, that's much higher tap off voltage
2022-05-27T15:04:13 < zyp> what's your voltage limit again?
2022-05-27T15:06:29 < zyp> ah, right, 1.8V
2022-05-27T15:08:47 < zyp> I'd do a divider with 3.3k over 1.8k, that way you'd still be within limits if somebody fucks up and feeds vbus on cc
2022-05-27T15:09:46 < zyp> I assume your ADC still has enough resolution to classify valid ranges
2022-05-27T15:12:27 < karlp> vbus on CC is totally illegal, I'm not going to even try and handle that.
2022-05-27T15:12:34 < karlp> it also makes the low threshold really low.
2022-05-27T15:12:53 < karlp> I actually only need to detect plugged/not plugged plus orientation, not pwoer levels,
2022-05-27T15:13:00 < karlp> so that's 0.25v->2.18v range,
2022-05-27T15:14:21 < zyp> who cares, 3.3k+1.8k costs the same as 470+4.7k
2022-05-27T15:14:44 < karlp> sure enough 
2022-05-27T15:15:45 < karlp> ends up with only 80mV for the low end of legal connected values though, but that should be easily distinguished from a 1k8 straight to ground on adc input
2022-05-27T15:16:14 < karlp> yeah, fuck it, that's fine.
2022-05-27T15:16:22 < karlp> why was I overthinking it with a parallel divider
2022-05-27T15:16:23 < zyp> a 12-bit ADC gets you around 1.25mV per LSB with those values
2022-05-27T15:16:26 < zyp> if I'm mathing right
2022-05-27T15:17:26 < zyp> so your 80mV is a count of 64, sounds like plenty noise margin too
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2022-05-27T20:22:33 < tct> zyp zyp
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2022-05-27T20:32:33 < catphish> NVIDIA GPUs are back in stock, STM32 next?
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2022-05-27T20:57:17 < karlp> stm32 never went out of stock, if you used the right ones... ;)
2022-05-27T21:01:11 < specing> yup, ali has lots still
2022-05-27T21:05:35 < zyp> tct tct
2022-05-27T21:07:28 < catphish> tct isn't a word.
2022-05-27T21:09:57 < Steffanx> Hows daddy tct? 
2022-05-27T21:10:15 < tct> doing okay - over there?
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2022-05-27T21:40:11 < Steffanx> Same Same.
2022-05-27T21:40:58 < Steffanx> Recovering from covid shit yet?
2022-05-27T21:41:33 < Steffanx> I recall you said that hit TcT Corp. hard.
2022-05-27T21:48:22 < tct> recovered from covid shit for 2 weeks and then semiconductor shortage :D
2022-05-27T21:51:08 < upgrdman> anyone know of an example where stm32 + otg hs device + dma is used? i can't get it to work if i enable dma.
2022-05-27T21:51:31 < upgrdman> i know about the d-cache issue, word alignment requirement
2022-05-27T21:52:08 < upgrdman> more info about my problem here: https://community.st.com/s/question/0D53W00001ZaGqGSAV/stm32f730-stm32cubeide-otg-hs-device-with-dma-possible
2022-05-27T22:13:55 < catphish> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61607739
2022-05-27T22:14:24 < catphish> this is almost satire, UK government ministers did some minor crimes, so they've decided to reduce the punishment for them
2022-05-27T22:15:20 < BrainDamage> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgq4fw6o8Gc
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2022-05-27T22:21:32 < catphish> quite
2022-05-27T22:25:07 < catphish> cassetteboy keeps on giving https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT_k9JG0IN4
2022-05-27T23:07:11 < kaki> hello early
2022-05-27T23:08:36 < kaki> box soon?
2022-05-27T23:21:17 < Steffanx> Box late.
2022-05-27T23:29:47 < kaki> box later
2022-05-27T23:39:41 < kaki> you might need to do minor machining to any holes in the box after powder coating catphish
2022-05-27T23:40:08 < kaki> unless those were plugged during process
2022-05-27T23:40:31 < kaki> powder gets very thick layer to edges
2022-05-27T23:40:43 < kaki> millimeters
2022-05-27T23:46:05 < kaki> kinda waterdrop shape
2022-05-27T23:50:58 < catphish> kaki: interesting, i'll have to see how it fits, things were fairly tight before, i really don't want to machine the powder coating off though, that kinda defeats the purpose
2022-05-27T23:51:21 < catphish> anyway i'll find out soon, battery box and lid came back yesterday, i haven't inspected yet
2022-05-27T23:51:30 < kaki> it's thick
2022-05-27T23:52:41 < catphish> i guess i want it to be thick, so protec metal
2022-05-27T23:52:59 < catphish> i can always grind plastic parts a little if they don't fit
2022-05-27T23:58:49 < kaki> https://share.sketchpad.app/22/867-0c5b-b9f3eb.png this is what happens at edges usually
--- Day changed la touko 28 2022
2022-05-28T00:00:02 < kaki> just grind some paint off and then.. use bond+seal for connectors etc.
2022-05-28T00:00:38 < kaki> you get sealing and you don't need to mess with connectors
2022-05-28T00:01:28 < kaki> polyuretane 1component goo
2022-05-28T00:18:39 < qyx> is this a tooth
2022-05-28T00:23:22 < zyp> tct, you've recovered from the semiconductor shortage already?
2022-05-28T00:24:00 < Steffanx> I assume he meant. Recovered from covid, then the shortage hit.
2022-05-28T00:24:33 < zyp> isn't that a bit late?
2022-05-28T00:25:02 < Steffanx> Yes
2022-05-28T00:25:29 < Steffanx> I must say at work we didn't really have big issues either, until much later 
2022-05-28T00:29:35 < catphish> kaki: i see
2022-05-28T00:29:46 < catphish> i'mm see hoe well it's done i guess :)
2022-05-28T00:31:02 < zyp> kaki, rate my welder collection: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/797468335969271818/979855538806489088/IMG_20220527_223538.jpg
2022-05-28T00:31:41 < catphish> ooo nice
2022-05-28T00:32:04 < kaki> compact
2022-05-28T00:32:18 < kaki> you have separate plasma
2022-05-28T00:32:39 < zyp> yeah, that's the one I'm gonna make a CNC plasma of
2022-05-28T00:33:31 < catphish> i did a welding that i was proud of this week, not difficult, and reliant on lots of grinding, but happy with the result https://i.imgur.com/Ql3lbaR.jpg
2022-05-28T00:34:15 < catphish> and the back https://i.imgur.com/vZmKLcq.jpg
2022-05-28T00:35:39 < Steffanx> The grinding helped a lot :P
2022-05-28T00:35:54 < catphish> indeed :D
2022-05-28T00:36:13 < catphish> luckuly for me i don't have photos of before the grinding
2022-05-28T00:37:09 < zyp> hard to comment much on the weld when there's nothing visible left :p
2022-05-28T00:37:35 < catphish> this was the other amazing bit of fabrication i did this week, bolted a thing to another thing https://i.imgur.com/alg56CD.jpg
2022-05-28T00:37:54 < catphish> it's a LOT more secure than it looks
2022-05-28T00:42:22 < kaki> weird knob
2022-05-28T00:42:49 < kaki> cannot see if it operates anything else than that microswitch
2022-05-28T00:42:59 < kaki> ah wait
2022-05-28T00:43:18 < kaki> it has a pin
2022-05-28T00:43:24 < kaki> that moves something
2022-05-28T00:44:11 < ColdKeyboard> Does anyone have recommendation on capturing HDMI output? IC or PN or anything to get started
2022-05-28T00:44:34 < zyp> capturing in what sense? where do you want the data to end up?
2022-05-28T00:45:17 < kaki> fpga
2022-05-28T00:45:45 < zyp> there's some HDMI to MIPI CSI adapter chips that you can use to feed HDMI into the camera input of some SoC with CSI
2022-05-28T00:45:58 < zyp> my RK3399 kit got one of those
2022-05-28T00:46:16 < zyp> otherwise the common solution is a HDMI to parallel RGB adapter feeding a FPGA
2022-05-28T00:48:04 < ColdKeyboard> I guess it would be very similar to those USB capture cards, where you capture HDMI feed over USB
2022-05-28T00:48:38 < zyp> yeah, those are typically HDMI to RGB feeding a FPGA that feeds a FX3
2022-05-28T00:49:03 < ColdKeyboard> Is there a SoC or a module that one can use off the shelf or you have to program your own FPGA and license IP cores etc?
2022-05-28T00:50:40 < zyp> this is the one I've got: https://www.friendlyelec.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=257
2022-05-28T00:50:52 < zyp> HDMI to CSI adapter chip is on the carrier board
2022-05-28T00:52:02 < zyp> you'll probably want the v2 kit if anything: https://www.friendlyelec.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=60&product_id=281
2022-05-28T00:52:32 < ColdKeyboard> zyp the eval board has HDMI IN, is that how it works or you have external converter?
2022-05-28T00:52:32 < zyp> I expect that'll give you the HDMI stream as a v4l device
2022-05-28T00:54:46 < zyp> here's the schematic for the carrier board: https://wiki.friendlyelec.com/wiki/images/d/de/SOM-RK3399_Dev_Kit_1904_Schematic.pdf
2022-05-28T00:54:58 < zyp> page 8 has the HDMI adapter, it's using a TC358749XBG
2022-05-28T00:58:06 < ColdKeyboard> Huh that's pretty sweet, and this Toshiba IC metions supporting HDCP 1.4 which is a nice bonus.
2022-05-28T00:58:31 < ColdKeyboard> Wonder if one could use this to capture HDMI stream on Raspberry PI or some other more powerful SoC with MIPI interface?
2022-05-28T00:58:36 < zyp> note that while I've got the board, I've never tested that feature :)
2022-05-28T00:58:49 < zyp> yeah, that's the whole point
2022-05-28T00:58:58 < zyp> RK3399 is a fairly powerful SoC
2022-05-28T00:59:36 < zyp> don't remember exact numbers, but it's around as powerful as rpi4
2022-05-28T01:06:19 < ColdKeyboard> Nice! Having a chip where I can pre-load the HDCP keys and decrypt the high-res HDCP content would be awesome. Thank zyp!
2022-05-28T01:07:48 < ColdKeyboard> Are there any other chips on the market similar to TC358749XBG?
2022-05-28T01:08:07 < zyp> I would expect so, but I'm not familiar with any
2022-05-28T01:08:43 < zyp> I think also some FPGAs are fast enough to receive TMDS directly
2022-05-28T01:09:02 < zyp> and there's HDMI to displayport chips that you could feed into a FPGA SERDES
2022-05-28T01:15:51 < ColdKeyboard> Interesting, I'll have to google this a bit more. If any chips/companies come to mind, please let me know
2022-05-28T01:17:34 < catphish> i'd love to get acquainted with a fx3, seems like possibilities are endless
2022-05-28T01:18:09 < zyp> a newer alternative might be ch569, fresh out of china
2022-05-28T01:18:25 < zyp> I've got one I'm meaning to play with when I find time
2022-05-28T01:18:29 < catphish> interesting
2022-05-28T01:18:59 < catphish> i'm interested in doing high speed ADC to USB for RF and oscilloscope stuff
2022-05-28T01:19:34 < zyp> karlp has already been doing some work porting laks to the wch mcus, so bringing up the ch569 shouldn't take too long once I can just get started
2022-05-28T01:20:59 < zyp> my first project will probably be a usb3 addon to the orbtrace mini, as a precursor for a future usb3 orbtrace
2022-05-28T01:22:03 < catphish> i'm not doing anything until i finish this car though
2022-05-28T01:22:51 < zyp> and I'm not doing anything until I get the orbtraces out the door
2022-05-28T01:23:10 < zyp> except the FOC stuff I'm working on on the side that keeps stealing my attention
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2022-05-28T01:23:49 < catphish> FOC (permanent magnet motor control)?
2022-05-28T01:23:54 < zyp> yes
2022-05-28T01:24:08 < catphish> cool
2022-05-28T01:24:25 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/Jgg2c.mp4
2022-05-28T01:24:32 < catphish> i feel like that should basically be a solved problem by now
2022-05-28T01:24:55 < catphish> there are plenty of solutions but people always seem to be working on it
2022-05-28T01:25:27 < catphish> that's some high speed stepping!
2022-05-28T01:25:54 < zyp> sure it is solved, but I want to understand it, so I'm doing my own implementation to learn
2022-05-28T01:26:05 < zyp> (and to get something that's simple for me to reuse later)
2022-05-28T01:26:16 < zyp> also, it's not a stepper
2022-05-28T01:26:16 < catphish> i was going to point out that your power supply is current limiting, but i assume that's intention because your controller can't yet
2022-05-28T01:26:47 < catphish> really? maybe it's just the form factor, that looks *exactly* like a high pole stepper motor
2022-05-28T01:26:47 < zyp> a stepper of comparable size has around six times the torque, since it trades speed for torque
2022-05-28T01:27:04 < catphish> do low pole motors come in that NEMA form factor too?
2022-05-28T01:27:06 < zyp> this is an 8 pole BLDC
2022-05-28T01:27:12 < catphish> interesting
2022-05-28T01:27:41 < catphish> also, your implementation is sensored?
2022-05-28T01:27:50 < zyp> and while it's as wide as a NEMA 17, the mounting holes are a bit closer to the center so it won't fit standard NEMA 17 mounting holes
2022-05-28T01:27:53 < zyp> not yet
2022-05-28T01:28:02 < zyp> and yes, current limiting is intentional
2022-05-28T01:28:31 < catphish> oh you're just driving it and hoping for the best so far?
2022-05-28T01:28:36 < zyp> yes
2022-05-28T01:28:38 < catphish> :)
2022-05-28T01:29:09 < zyp> this is the code running in the video: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/REZ57
2022-05-28T01:29:12 < zyp> that's all there's to it
2022-05-28T01:30:15 < catphish> the guy i'm working with on cars is interested in finding an inverter at the moment, he needs something that can do 100V at 500A and can do field weakening to run above rated speed
2022-05-28T01:31:11 < catphish> more maths in there than i'd do
2022-05-28T01:32:24 < catphish> i favour table lookup for waveforms
2022-05-28T01:32:37 < catphish> https://github.com/catphish/sdu-basic/blob/master/main.c#L88
2022-05-28T01:35:59 < zyp> you're putting double literals in a float table…
2022-05-28T01:36:58 < zyp> you've got 96k of lookup tables… I'd rather not :)
2022-05-28T01:37:56 < zyp> also, aren't three tables redundant? wouldn't they just be 120 degree shifted of each other?
2022-05-28T01:38:16 < zyp> and also symmetric
2022-05-28T01:38:38 < catphish> yes
2022-05-28T01:38:47 < zyp> seems like you could reduce to 16k by simply dropping redundant information
2022-05-28T01:38:48 < catphish> but what do i care?
2022-05-28T01:39:13 < catphish> if i run out of memory, i can optimize it
2022-05-28T01:39:56 < zyp> this runs on a f103rb? so you've got 128k of flash? :)
2022-05-28T01:40:19 < catphish> yes
2022-05-28T01:40:46 < zyp> well, do whatever you like
2022-05-28T01:41:16 < zyp> I'm on G4 which got both an FPU and CORDIC, so I could use that to accelerate the trigonometry eventually
2022-05-28T01:41:57 < catphish> it seems like i'll have to optimize the table later, but it's never really come up
2022-05-28T01:42:07 < zyp> also, when I close the loop I'm not gonna be operating on the angle anyway
2022-05-28T01:42:14 < catphish> also, this way i don't have to make the number of increments a multiple of 3
2022-05-28T01:43:17 < zyp> or I mean, encoder angle is still an angle, but the rest will be vectors/complex numbers
2022-05-28T01:44:48 < catphish> with proper FOC it seems like the table is indeed probably not the best way to go
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2022-05-28T01:45:33 < zyp> float multiplications with a FPU are single cycle, so that part of it will probably outperform table lookups anyway
2022-05-28T01:45:52 < catphish> yes, a luxury my f103 lacks
2022-05-28T01:45:58 < zyp> what I could do is make tables for sin() and cos() if they are not fast enough as is or with CORDIC
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2022-05-28T01:55:00 < kaki> catphish: still have 3 separate sin tables?
2022-05-28T01:55:24 < catphish> kaki: yes
2022-05-28T01:55:45 < catphish> though i haven't looked at this code since the day i wrote it
2022-05-28T01:56:21 < kaki> still longing for FPU?
2022-05-28T01:56:47 < catphish> no
2022-05-28T01:56:58 < catphish> for my inverter i only have f103
2022-05-28T01:57:11 < catphish> i'm not redesigning the hardware
2022-05-28T01:57:28 < catphish> i may not even redesign the software :) time will tell
2022-05-28T01:57:32 < kaki> have you measured cycle time?
2022-05-28T01:57:35 < catphish> need to get car build first
2022-05-28T01:57:41 < catphish> no
2022-05-28T01:58:39 < kaki> you know at least where you need to land that cycle time in order it to run smooth?
2022-05-28T02:00:13 < catphish> i'd have to work it out, but this is roughly a 20khz loop on a 100MHz processor, so, lots
2022-05-28T02:00:39 < Steffanx> 100? overclocking it?
2022-05-28T02:04:53 < machinehum> Allwinner is fucking hard
2022-05-28T02:05:16 < machinehum> I've been trying to get this V5 shit to boot...
2022-05-28T02:05:21 < machinehum> It's nearly impossible
2022-05-28T02:05:30 < machinehum> The linux-sunxi people are god level
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2022-05-28T02:07:26 < kaki> you are trying to bootloader?
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2022-05-28T02:20:37 < kaki> https://i.imgur.com/5Dq6K2U.png damn phone line modems were dope
2022-05-28T02:21:32 < kaki> comfusers whisper
2022-05-28T02:24:35 < kaki> interesting part is that those modems do frequency tests, echo tests, adjust gains and filters
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2022-05-28T02:31:32 < zyp> the fun part is that modern communication protocols do the same
2022-05-28T02:32:43 < zyp> take usb3 for instance, it's gonna start out with some handshaking to figure out the speeds supported by either end, and then run test patterns so both ends can adjust gains and filters
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2022-05-28T08:31:54 < kaki> *'
2022-05-28T09:00:25 -!- emeb_mac [~ericb@ip174-72-120-245.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
2022-05-28T09:47:36 < kaki> __^'
2022-05-28T09:47:41 < kaki> ´+´
2022-05-28T09:59:38 < kaki> ¨
2022-05-28T10:59:02 < kaki> cool
2022-05-28T11:02:03 -!- IanW_ [~IceChat9@arcanum.force9.co.uk] has joined ##stm32
2022-05-28T11:21:26 < Steffanx> Lol what kaki
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2022-05-28T14:18:01 < jpa-> Steffanx: kaki was just transmitting a pattern that lets you adjust your filters
2022-05-28T14:23:35 < Steffanx> Lol yeah, handshake failed.
2022-05-28T14:26:05 < mawk> I'm in osterrijk Steffanx 
2022-05-28T14:26:10 < mawk> did you visit before?
2022-05-28T14:38:54 < Steffanx> Oostenrijk* 
2022-05-28T14:39:07 < Steffanx> And no, only zwitserland.
2022-05-28T14:40:48 < mawk> why not
2022-05-28T14:40:57 < mawk> ooooooostenrijk
2022-05-28T14:46:27 < Steffanx> Idk. 
2022-05-28T14:46:43 < Steffanx> It's a beautiful country for sure. Compared to flatland.
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2022-05-28T21:48:25 < machinehum> kaki: yes
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2022-05-28T22:41:27 < upgrdman> linker script pros: cubeIDE generates a linker script with one big RAM section, but I need to place some data in DTCM. i think i made the appropriate changes, but i get an error about my buffer not fitting into FLASH (it's an ununit'd array, why would it need to be in flash?!)  see here: https://pastebin.com/2SpKLx4g
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--- Day changed su touko 29 2022
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2022-05-29T02:21:58 < kaki> Steffanx: I slept on keyboard
2022-05-29T02:23:43 < Steffanx> Jpa's explanation was more fun 
2022-05-29T02:23:49 < kaki> yes
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2022-05-29T08:40:52 < jpa-> upgrdman: put NOLOAD on it
2022-05-29T08:41:33 < upgrdman> jpa-, put NOLOAD where?
2022-05-29T08:42:33 < jpa-> linker script, take look how .bss is done
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2022-05-29T08:43:12 < jpa-> also ".dtcm" is not "DTCM"
2022-05-29T08:44:38 < upgrdman> original stm linker script: https://pastebin.com/9ubZp4yj   i don't see NOLOAD used in the .bss section?
2022-05-29T08:46:22 < jpa-> hmm, i guess it is not mandatory
2022-05-29T08:46:55 < jpa-> the reason why its going to flash is because you have different section name
2022-05-29T08:50:27 < upgrdman> jpa-, tried this: https://pastebin.com/Yxe8dHam   still no luck
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2022-05-29T10:47:35 < jpa-> upgrdman: you are saying "put all sections named .dtcm here" and then you call your section DTCM
2022-05-29T10:47:48 < jpa-> try  __attribute__((section(".dtcm")));
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2022-05-29T19:06:02 < upgrdman> jpa-, that works, thanks!
2022-05-29T19:20:43 < Steffanx> upgrdman: don't forget to check your .map file next time. They you couldve seen where your variable ended up.
2022-05-29T19:30:52 < upgrdman> k
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2022-05-29T20:04:46 < bitmask> gonna have the house to myself for 2 weeks. what should I do? :/
2022-05-29T20:07:00 < emeb_mac> Traditionally, one operates a brothel from the family home when the authorities are away.
2022-05-29T20:09:12 < bitmask> oh well obviously... thats a given
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2022-05-29T20:14:05 < aandrew> PaulFertser: you around? have an openocd question or two if you are
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2022-05-29T20:29:59 < PaulFertser> aandrew: I can try answering
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2022-05-29T20:33:00 < ColdKeyboard> zyp do you know if there is a breakout board or eval board for the Toshiba TC358743 IC?
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2022-05-29T20:48:56 < Steffanx> ColdKeyboard:  https://blog.adafruit.com/2020/10/09/a-handmade-hdmi-capture-card-for-the-raspberry-pi-hdmi-raspberrypi-raspberry_pi/ :P
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2022-05-29T20:50:11 < Steffanx> isnt one of those semi-cheap aliexpress board eval boardish enough?
2022-05-29T20:50:17 < Steffanx> boards
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2022-05-29T20:53:46 < mawk> o
2022-05-29T20:53:54 < mawk> calm down Steffanx 
2022-05-29T20:59:00 < Steffanx> uh what mr mawk?
2022-05-29T20:59:11 < mawk> nothing
2022-05-29T20:59:22 < mawk> I'm bringing McDonald's back home
2022-05-29T20:59:32 < mawk> and I just saw a pigeon gutted by a cat 
2022-05-29T20:59:40 < mawk> I'm not hungry anymore
2022-05-29T20:59:52 < mawk> it's all red and juicy inside the pigeon
2022-05-29T21:01:12 < mawk> parisian pigeon probably doesn't taste good
2022-05-29T21:01:20 < zyp> you mean the mcdonalds meal got less appetizing once you came across a real treat?
2022-05-29T21:01:23 < mawk> marinated in pollution
2022-05-29T21:01:29 < mawk> lol
2022-05-29T21:01:36 < mawk> yeah
2022-05-29T21:04:04 < Steffanx> > mcdonalds
2022-05-29T21:04:11 < mawk> what
2022-05-29T21:04:26 < Steffanx> not a fan
2022-05-29T21:04:28 < mawk> is er een problem meneer
2022-05-29T21:04:36 < Steffanx> i prefer the burgerking :
2022-05-29T21:04:38 < Steffanx> :P
2022-05-29T21:04:40 < mawk> no it's not a ventilator it's a meal
2022-05-29T21:04:44 < mawk> I prefer 5 guys 
2022-05-29T21:04:48 < Steffanx> *probleem
2022-05-29T21:04:48 < mawk> but it's rare here
2022-05-29T21:04:52 < mawk> probleeeeem
2022-05-29T21:04:54 < upgrdman> wouldn't a usb3 hdmi capture dongle be better than that pi-specific thing?
2022-05-29T21:05:15 < Steffanx> 5 guys can be an issue in paris mawk
2022-05-29T21:05:26 < mawk> :(
2022-05-29T21:05:30 < Steffanx> *cant
2022-05-29T21:05:31 < Steffanx> lol
2022-05-29T21:06:54 < Steffanx> mawk im referring to https://i.imgflip.com/3njscn.jpg ofcourse :P
2022-05-29T21:11:05 < ColdKeyboard> Lol Steffanx. That hand soldering of BGA chip is awesome. XD
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2022-05-29T21:11:47 < ColdKeyboard> USB capture card is nice but TC358743 has an option that allows you to load your own HDCP keys
2022-05-29T21:42:14 < mawk> lol
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2022-05-29T22:05:46 < catphish> spend an unreasonable amount of time on this https://i.imgur.com/egKWXWq.png
2022-05-29T22:06:15 < zyp> that's what happens when you do schematics in mspaint
2022-05-29T22:06:54 < catphish> lol
2022-05-29T22:15:56 < srk> who needs break pedal
2022-05-29T22:19:14 < specing> haha
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2022-05-29T22:24:51 < catphish> yeah i'm not connecting the brake pedal ;)
2022-05-29T22:29:50 < Steffanx> uh what?
2022-05-29T22:30:54 < specing> it's a disposable car
2022-05-29T22:32:26 < catphish> the inverter has an analog input to measure brake pedal position / pressure, it can use this to regulate the regenerative motor braking, my brake has no such sensor, so i'm not using that functionality
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2022-05-29T22:34:44 < Steffanx> You trust your own software this much catphish? 
2022-05-29T22:35:31 < qyx> I would say he has a mechanical brake
2022-05-29T22:35:39 < Steffanx> i hope so :P
2022-05-29T22:35:59 < qyx> but who needs a brake
2022-05-29T22:40:13 < catphish> Steffanx: no software involved, that's the point, brake is mechanical only
2022-05-29T22:41:52 < Steffanx> Mechanical is no fun
2022-05-29T22:43:33 < srk> tesla is brake by wire?
2022-05-29T22:45:33 < specing> cloud braking
2022-05-29T22:45:50 < catphish> srk: both wire and non-wire
2022-05-29T22:46:06 < catphish> srk: the computer can brake by wire, but the pedal is also mechanically connected
2022-05-29T22:51:17 < srk> cool
2022-05-29T22:52:05 < srk> you want to regen brake first but also be able to pass safety regulations :D
2022-05-29T22:54:10 < specing> catphish: what's an SDU?
2022-05-29T23:08:29 < zyp> software defined unicycle
2022-05-29T23:17:44 < catphish> specing: small drive unit, it's a combined inverter, motor, gearbox and differential made by tesla for the Model S
2022-05-29T23:19:13 < specing> catphish: combined? :O
2022-05-29T23:19:26 < specing> so if anything breaks you gotta replace it all?
2022-05-29T23:19:41 < specing> catphish: and you got it from a thrashed tesla?
2022-05-29T23:20:35 < catphish> specing: from a crashed tesla, yes, and that depends what breaks, it's quite possible to disassamble and fix, but often not worth bothering
2022-05-29T23:21:39 < specing> catphish: I remember when our clothes washer board inverter, we took it out and sent it to manufacturer.. and got it back fixed in a week or so
2022-05-29T23:21:45 < specing> died*
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2022-05-29T23:25:52 < specing> plug & pray lol https://www.ebay.com/itm/174028620515
2022-05-29T23:26:13 < aandrew> PaulFertser: sorry for the lag. I'm having a hell of a time trying to talk to a atsamd51j18a with an ft2232-based debug board I designed
2022-05-29T23:26:26 < aandrew> it's really not difficult to do/use but this has been driving me nuts
2022-05-29T23:26:57 < aandrew> it seems to find it (swd dap has the right ID etc) but any actual work with it (e.g. "reset halt" or "reg" or anything) it seems to have trouble actually getting data across
2022-05-29T23:28:02 < aandrew> tried faster/slower swdck, nada. j-link on the same physical interface (just disconnecting the rst/swdio/swdck from ft2232h) works without issue 
2022-05-29T23:28:54 < aandrew> I've got the SWDIO line connected to ADBUS2 which should be the TDO input on the FT2232's MPSSE, and then that is connected to ADBUS1 (TDI output) with a 470R. SWDCK is just directly connected to ADBUS0 (TCK)
2022-05-29T23:30:48 < aandrew> the ftdi layout_init is 0xf208 0xfffb since I have RST# on ACBUS1 and I noticed that ADBUS2 *must* be set for input or nothing works ever. setting TMS=1 shouldn't do a damn thing since ADBUS3 is disconnected, but it seems to help. not sure if that's an internal openocd thing or not
2022-05-29T23:31:06 < aandrew> (this is all with the github master, 0.11 release behaves similar though)
2022-05-29T23:32:49 < aandrew> I use ftdi layout_signal SWD_EN -data 0 since there is no way to switch between JTAG and SWD on this board, and also layout_signal'd nSRST as -data 0x0200. Also added -noe 0x0200 to test it as an OC reset signal with no real change (which is expected)
2022-05-29T23:33:18 < aandrew> reset_config is set to srst_only but also tried "srst_nogate srst_only" and the reset signal does move as expected
2022-05-29T23:34:45 < aandrew> oh... nevermind... tried nSRST as -data 0x0200 -oe 0x0200 and that seems to be working...
2022-05-29T23:34:50 < aandrew> I'm getting register output now which is good
--- Day changed ma touko 30 2022
2022-05-30T00:00:31 < aandrew> one other ftdi/openocd question - at least on OSX, when the FT2232 is plugged in (blank SPI eeprom so it's all defaults) I see the usual USB VID/PID and string (FT2232H dual serial) and see two serial ports. if I run openocd where my config is saying to use interface 0, the second serial port disappears as well
2022-05-30T00:00:37 < aandrew> this doesn't happen on linux
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2022-05-30T02:05:10 < catphish> kaki: documentation you might be mildly interested in https://i.imgur.com/egKWXWq.png
2022-05-30T02:06:12 < kaki> what tool you used to draw this?
2022-05-30T02:06:46 < catphish> https://qelectrotech.org/
2022-05-30T02:07:23 < catphish> it's very well suited to this
2022-05-30T02:09:38 < kaki> very nice
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2022-05-30T02:12:05 < kaki> what is +12v ACC?
2022-05-30T02:13:01 < kaki> is this complete yet?
2022-05-30T02:14:19 < catphish> kaki: i'm not totally sure i labeled ACC correctly, but in this case it's a power feed that comes on when the key is turned but turns off while the starter motor is cranking, it's usually used for fans and audio amplifiers, to reduce stress on the battery
2022-05-30T02:14:35 < catphish> and yes, it is complete
2022-05-30T02:14:47 < kaki> what is heater?
2022-05-30T02:15:07 < kaki> and will you wire in brake pedal?
2022-05-30T02:15:57 < kaki> does accelerator pedal have safety switch?
2022-05-30T02:16:11 < kaki> at begin of the range
2022-05-30T02:16:56 < catphish> kaki: when "heat switch" is on, "charge control" receives a signal that the driver wants to heat up the cabin, it drives "heater relay" which sends high voltage to a PTC heating element in the interior ventilation path
2022-05-30T02:17:58 < catphish> with regard to brake input, my car has no brake pressure sensor, so no, but i recently learned that it does have a redundant throttle pot, so i will wire the redundant throttle pot to the brake input, the software supports this configuration
2022-05-30T02:18:11 < catphish> this acts as throttle safety check
2022-05-30T02:19:04 < catphish> additional safety comes from "brake switch"
2022-05-30T02:20:20 < catphish> "start button" and "cruise control" are left unconnected and will be driven by CAN from a single button on the dash
2022-05-30T02:21:22 < catphish> so the diagram isn't quite complete, i need to add the redundant throttle pot, and might as well also connect the tacho signal (though i'm not sure if it'll do anything useful)
2022-05-30T02:21:43 < catphish> overall it's a pretty simple setup
2022-05-30T02:22:41 < catphish> "heater safety cutoff" is a switch that opens if the PTC heating element overheats, preventing any kind of error from running the heater without the fan
2022-05-30T02:24:19 < catphish> "brake switch" is an input, it just takes its feed from the brake lights, an OEM system that i otherwise don't need to touch
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2022-05-30T09:57:31 < qyx> so what stm32 pros recommend as a config markup/language?
2022-05-30T09:58:06 < qyx> I am strongly biased against yaml since they decided to ban tabs
2022-05-30T09:58:20 < qyx> and json is basically unusable for anything serious
2022-05-30T10:00:17 < rajkosto> lua
2022-05-30T10:01:11 < jpa-> .ini
2022-05-30T10:01:32 < jpa-> everyone knows the syntax, minini is tiny & works well and is easy to port
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2022-05-30T10:52:06 < qyx> then toml it is
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2022-05-30T11:00:26 < josuah> toml vs ini feels a bit like rst (or others) vs markdown
2022-05-30T11:00:49 < josuah> or maybe markdown vs common mark
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2022-05-30T17:39:36 < Steffanx> Why did you try to feed mona, mawk?
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2022-05-30T19:16:28 < mawk> Steffanx :(
2022-05-30T19:16:32 < mawk> she seemed hungry
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2022-05-30T22:36:25 < fenugrec> Nice. had a c++  question but found the answer while trying to formulate it
2022-05-30T22:36:40 < fenugrec> short answer : I don<t know what I'm doing
2022-05-30T22:39:47 < specing> fenugrec: use boost::spirit, increase your compile times to infinity! If it never finishes compiling you never have to fix it :D
2022-05-30T22:41:49 < fenugrec> I like that
2022-05-30T22:48:51 < specing> What are some good really cheap (<$3) modules/chips to use for doing some simple wireless rx/tx for hobbyist purposes? I'd like a wireless uart, but without complexities of zigbee/lora/BLE.
2022-05-30T22:52:33 < qyx> sx1231
2022-05-30T22:52:58 < qyx> esp32
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2022-05-30T22:54:12 < qyx> Si4060
2022-05-30T22:54:19 < qyx> or RFM69 module
2022-05-30T22:54:52 < qyx> lot of libraries for all of them
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2022-05-30T23:25:29 < specing> qyx: esp32 supports raw TX/RX?
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2022-05-30T23:26:26 < qyx> you didn't ask for raw rx/tx
2022-05-30T23:26:30 < qyx> you wanted simple rx/tx
2022-05-30T23:26:33 < specing> right, I didn't :/
2022-05-30T23:26:37 < qyx> which it indeed supports
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2022-05-30T23:28:21 < jpa-> nrf24l01 is also classic
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2022-05-30T23:37:07 < karlp> hc5 shits for uart replacement stuff too iirc
2022-05-30T23:44:33 < kaki> https://www.youtube.com/shorts/XGL3rskcQD0
2022-05-30T23:54:29 < kaki> hello early
2022-05-30T23:54:39 < kaki> catphish: box now
2022-05-30T23:54:48 < kaki> now?
2022-05-30T23:56:41 < Steffanx> Stay out! Stay out!
2022-05-30T23:58:11 < kaki> box
--- Day changed ti touko 31 2022
2022-05-31T00:09:56 < kaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMDpPJC5mIg
2022-05-31T00:10:09 < kaki> ah you are f1 fan Steffanx?
2022-05-31T00:10:23 < kaki> I just watch some footages from youtubes
2022-05-31T00:12:04 < kaki> f1 used to be free to view from tv
2022-05-31T00:12:10 < Steffanx> Hah, not really a fan. Mostly have it on, but in the background while doing other things.
2022-05-31T00:12:31 < Steffanx> And I was referring to that moment in youe video though 😋
2022-05-31T00:12:33 < kaki> now it requires some subscription
2022-05-31T00:13:18 < Steffanx> Sadly my favourite finnisher is no longer in F1
2022-05-31T00:13:31 < kaki> häkkinen right?
2022-05-31T00:13:43 < Steffanx> Räikkönen
2022-05-31T00:19:20 < Steffanx> Just because his interviews were funny. 
2022-05-31T00:19:46 < catphish> kaki: box is back :) today's work https://imgur.com/a/6b4EWoU
2022-05-31T00:20:31 < kaki> id they get 100% cover?
2022-05-31T00:21:13 < kaki> I don't see pooling in edges I expected
2022-05-31T00:21:56 < catphish> kaki: seems perfect to me, no issues with pooling or holes shrinking
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2022-05-31T00:24:57 < upgrdman> anyone know of a reliable and not super expensive 5V -> 12V 2A boost converter module? seems like >$20 on digikey, or cheaper random chinese things on amazon
2022-05-31T00:27:56 < kaki> 5v to 12v eh?
2022-05-31T00:28:27 < kaki> you doings something out of usb vbus?
2022-05-31T00:29:40 < upgrdman> ya
2022-05-31T00:30:23 < upgrdman> modifying a pi display case. it has a usb-c port, but only for video in. it uses a 12v 2a barrel jack for power. i want to add a boost converter so i can power it from usb-c
2022-05-31T00:31:27 < upgrdman> i bought one of those xl6009 modules on amazon, thinking i didnt need full 12v 2a out, but i was wrong. input is 5v and >2A, and it browns out
2022-05-31T00:31:53 < upgrdman> i think 15W is enough, but might as well plan for max 24W
2022-05-31T00:31:57 < specing> but uuuh
2022-05-31T00:32:11 < specing> can't usb-c PD do 12V?
2022-05-31T00:32:30 < kaki> but if you don't have pd
2022-05-31T00:32:33 < upgrdman> ya but i might be powering it from non-pd stuff, like old power banks etc
2022-05-31T00:32:41 < specing> right
2022-05-31T00:32:44 < upgrdman> and my usb-a hub has high power ports i can use
2022-05-31T00:32:54 < kaki> does anything in that display need 12v though?
2022-05-31T00:32:58 < upgrdman> ya
2022-05-31T00:33:33 < upgrdman> its got a whole motherboard on it for driving the lcd, handlding pi/hdmi/usb-c video input, etc.
2022-05-31T00:33:50 < upgrdman> i might be able to cut traces and power just the backlight from 12V
2022-05-31T00:34:37 < kaki> thats hungry display
2022-05-31T00:34:51 < kaki> my comfuser can do under 10W
2022-05-31T00:34:55 < kaki> display included
2022-05-31T00:35:06 < upgrdman> i know
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2022-05-31T00:35:57 < kaki> it says it want's 2amps@12volts?
2022-05-31T00:36:55 < upgrdman> included power brick is 12v2a out
2022-05-31T00:37:11 < upgrdman> probably so it can power a pi with lots of usb shits on it
2022-05-31T00:37:24 < upgrdman> so i dont NEED 12v2a, but might as well have it
2022-05-31T00:37:39 < kaki> ah it hase pi in it too
2022-05-31T00:38:04 < upgrdman> ya
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2022-05-31T00:53:47 < kaki> pi likes amps
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2022-05-31T02:42:45 < catphish> 5A (input in this case) is a fairly substantial boost converter sadly
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2022-05-31T03:25:36 < zyp> upgrdman_, «high power» non-PD USB is like 12W or so
2022-05-31T03:27:44 < upgrdman_> my power bank a-holes are rated for "18W"
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2022-05-31T04:15:34 < upgrdman> just had an epiphany... i can power the pi from 5v directly, and only use my little boost converter to power the lcd/motherboard. that would also prevent wasting needlessly, lol
2022-05-31T04:30:16 < rajkosto> why wouldnt you do that in the first place
2022-05-31T04:33:02 < upgrdman> the drawback is then the case can't power off the pi. i would have to unplug usb to cut power
2022-05-31T04:33:16 < upgrdman> which is slightly annoying but livable
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2022-05-31T09:14:14 < upgrdman> im using a TL431 voltage reference, powered by usb 5v. it's clean (+/- 3mV noise) when usb vbus is clean, but it's not as clean (+/- 5mV noise) when usb vbus gets noisy. is the "proper" solution to use two voltage references like usb vbus -> 4V ref -> 3.3V ref ? so the second reference sees a cleaner supply
2022-05-31T09:14:40 < upgrdman> or is there some better / more elegant solution?
2022-05-31T09:18:41 < rajkosto> ferrite bead and cap before TL431 ?
2022-05-31T09:20:48 < rajkosto> you can connect it up to a "clean" LDO voltage that will only have analog stuff on it
2022-05-31T09:21:57 < upgrdman> no bead, will try
2022-05-31T09:22:15 < rajkosto> bead connected to source in series, cap connected closer to TL431
2022-05-31T09:22:57 < rajkosto> usb supplies are pretty much always chained to another SMPS or LDO
2022-05-31T09:23:22 < upgrdman> ya
2022-05-31T09:24:05 < upgrdman> usb is feeding a 3v3 ldo on my board, but that's not clean enough for ADC VREF, so im using a TL431 powered by USB to generate my ADC VREF
2022-05-31T09:24:50 < rajkosto> have you tried just ferrite beading the ldo to the vref ?
2022-05-31T09:25:29 < upgrdman> and public service announcement: if you're using OTG HS and can't get DMA working, it's because of a bug in STM32Cube library. https://community.st.com/s/question/0D53W000015bY9fSAE/problem-with-stm32h747-hs-usb-dma
2022-05-31T09:25:52 < upgrdman> finally got it working! but i had to disable D-Cache, looking into how to make it work with D-Cache enabled now
2022-05-31T09:26:10 < rajkosto> invalidate the regions before/after dma ?
2022-05-31T09:26:13 < upgrdman> rajkosto, i have not
2022-05-31T09:27:06 < upgrdman> rajkosto, ya that's what needs to be done. just not sure exactly how easy that will be. if i just need to invalidate before CDC_Transmit() or if i have to invalidate multiple times while the usb lib is doing shit, etc.
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2022-05-31T12:11:00 < jadew> is there any way to virus scan an entire repository?
2022-05-31T12:11:08 < jadew> (ubuntu repository)
2022-05-31T12:12:38 < jadew> I want to install some NI drivers and they pull in a bunch of shit from NI's repo
2022-05-31T12:12:49 < jadew> on Windows you just get a big blob you can scan
2022-05-31T12:14:08 < jpa-> i doubt there are any actually useful virus scanners against linux viruses
2022-05-31T12:14:51 < jadew> I would use virustotal... hopefully one of them works
2022-05-31T12:15:11 < jpa-> but i assume you can do --download-only and then scan /var/lib/apt/cache
2022-05-31T12:15:43 < jadew> yeah, I'm reading about that now
2022-05-31T12:18:09 < jadew> this looks like a good option: https://askubuntu.com/a/80692
2022-05-31T12:22:28 < jadew> 117 packages
2022-05-31T12:42:21 < jadew> would be cool if virustotal did multiple files at once
2022-05-31T12:43:55 < jadew> I wonder what they make money from
2022-05-31T12:44:10 < jadew> I bet I'm using a lot of CPU right now
2022-05-31T12:44:36 < jpa-> they make money from selling your world-changing designs to china, of course
2022-05-31T12:44:54 < jadew> I'm not scanning my designs tho :P
2022-05-31T12:48:45 < jadew> and done.
2022-05-31T12:48:51 < jadew> no viruses (found)
2022-05-31T12:49:19 < jadew> I think NI is releasing repositories rather than stand alone packages
2022-05-31T12:49:29 < jadew> like... this repository will never update
2022-05-31T12:49:40 < jadew> it's a snapshot of what's available now
2022-05-31T12:49:51 < jadew> they have them numbered by Q
2022-05-31T12:49:56 < jadew> Q1, Q2, etc
2022-05-31T12:50:09 < jadew> and I see that some packages are similar with the ones in Q1
2022-05-31T12:50:19 < jadew> s/similar/exactly the same/
2022-05-31T12:50:54 < jadew> they're probably doing it so they don't end up fixing something that isn't broken
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2022-05-31T21:43:04 < mawk> zyp factor 16383 by hand it's super fun
2022-05-31T21:51:20 < mawk> Steffanx too
2022-05-31T21:54:10 < Steffanx> Is that fun?
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2022-05-31T22:07:58 < zyp> 7*17*137
2022-05-31T22:09:54 < zyp> wait, I misread the number
2022-05-31T22:11:00 < Steffanx> 127, 43, 3, 1.
2022-05-31T22:11:15 < zyp> ywah, was about to say
2022-05-31T22:11:23 < zyp> 3*43*127
2022-05-31T22:12:05 < Steffanx> Mawk has no clue how much fun I had doing this. Thanks  mawk ;)
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2022-05-31T22:39:02 < kaki> yes
2022-05-31T22:39:06 < kaki> and from 5volts
2022-05-31T22:39:35 < kaki> doesn't usb usually go to something like 3amps
2022-05-31T22:39:40 < kaki> typically
2022-05-31T22:39:55 < kaki> and especially in 5volts mode
2022-05-31T22:40:24 < kaki> hello evenings
2022-05-31T22:45:43 < mawk> yeah zyp 
2022-05-31T22:46:09 < mawk> you cheated Steffanx 
2022-05-31T22:46:34 < mawk> 16383 = 2^14 - 1
2022-05-31T22:46:49 < mawk> = (2^7 - 1)(2^7 + 1)
2022-05-31T22:46:54 < mawk> = 127×129
2022-05-31T22:47:02 < mawk> = 3×43×127
2022-05-31T22:47:05 < mawk> QED
2022-05-31T22:47:20 < zyp> ah, duh
2022-05-31T22:47:23 < zyp> missed that
2022-05-31T22:49:02 < mawk> 129 is divisible by 3 and you see it easily because 1+2+9 = 12 = 4×3
2022-05-31T22:56:20 < Steffanx> who says i cheated? Maybe i went through all possible dividers by hand.
2022-05-31T22:56:43 < Steffanx> with not-so-educated guesses
2022-05-31T23:01:15 < Steffanx> You cheated by picking a special number and then showing off your math tricks.
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2022-05-31T23:09:57 < mawk> Steffanx :(
2022-05-31T23:10:03 < mawk> I didn't cheat
2022-05-31T23:10:08 < mawk> I saw the number somewhere 
2022-05-31T23:10:18 < mawk> I didn't pick it
2022-05-31T23:10:28 < mawk> I saw the exercise in the AMC exam
2022-05-31T23:11:08 < mawk> american mathematics contest
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--- Log closed ke kesä 01 00:00:56 2022