--- Log opened su tammi 01 00:00:03 2023
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2023-01-01T01:24:44 < Steffanx-> Happy New year ##stm32 
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2023-01-01T01:40:31 < catphish_> Happy new year! :)
2023-01-01T01:43:05 < benishor> happy new things
2023-01-01T01:43:13 < benishor> it's 01:43 here already
2023-01-01T01:43:20 < benishor> almost drunk and happy
2023-01-01T01:50:18 < catphish_> It's not quite midnight here yet, but i'm always drunk and happy :)
2023-01-01T02:02:39 < qyx> now it the one an only genuine HNY
2023-01-01T02:02:47 < qyx> the UTC one
2023-01-01T02:12:53 < Steffanx-> Whatever makes you happy, qyx 
2023-01-01T02:20:36  * t4nk_freenode slips Steffanx- a prank cigar and a glass of carbonated vinegar; a toast to the new year, buddy ;)
2023-01-01T02:21:01 < t4nk_freenode> bottoms up
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2023-01-01T02:24:45 < Steffanx-> May the year 2023 bring you some humor and positivity , t4nk_freenode  
2023-01-01T02:25:38 < t4nk_freenode> thnx, u2
2023-01-01T02:38:59 < rustyaxe> May 2023 bring me whores and LSD.
2023-01-01T02:40:23 < kaki> limited slip differential
2023-01-01T02:40:33 < kaki> *
2023-01-01T02:43:04 < Steffanx-> Whatever makes you happy rustyaxe 
2023-01-01T03:06:25 < kaki> I survived to 1AM Steffanx-
2023-01-01T03:07:07 < Steffanx-> In the sauna or what kaki
2023-01-01T03:07:55 < kaki> I was trying out the vomit terrace outside the bar - they had these nice rails to just lean against
2023-01-01T03:08:32 < kaki> bartender came out and said you guise can fuk off now
2023-01-01T03:08:58 < kaki> everything went great
2023-01-01T03:09:22 < kaki> I went home early and wont have hangover tommorow
2023-01-01T03:09:45 < Steffanx-> You're growing old and wise?
2023-01-01T03:09:59 < kaki> ate and drank the whole night then go home at 1AM
2023-01-01T03:12:24 < kaki> Iesson learned: drink hard, vomit hard, home early, cancel hangover
2023-01-01T03:13:22 < Steffanx-> Or just skip the drink and vomit part.
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2023-01-01T09:10:20 < jadew> Happy new year!
2023-01-01T09:10:49 < jadew> what's FB1, 2, 3, etc? are those fuses? https://bilder.tragant.de/produkte/hoch/5f7eb6fd28fad7.56566175.jpg
2023-01-01T09:12:16 < jadew> I think they are
2023-01-01T09:12:58 < jadew> found a similar expansion board, probably made by the same business, but it's missing one of those
2023-01-01T09:13:19 < jadew> https://s13emagst.akamaized.net/products/34798/34797777/images/res_8100ef7d24183acc7263d4cf66798bd5.jpg
2023-01-01T09:13:26 < jadew> it's missing the one next to the crystal
2023-01-01T09:13:45 < jadew> the design seems to be almost identical
2023-01-01T09:14:30 < jadew> (trying to figure out which one is best)
2023-01-01T09:15:07 < jadew> the second one has flyback diodes on those regulators it seems
2023-01-01T09:16:01 < jadew> second one is half the price, but no-name
2023-01-01T09:16:24 < jadew> first one is delock, but I don't see their brand on the PCB, so it's probably rebranded
2023-01-01T09:17:34 < jadew> the reason I'm actually pondering which one to get is because I've read reviews on other similar boards where the customers were complaining about PSU cables melting
2023-01-01T09:19:41 < jadew> it's supposed to be able to deliver 40W lol...
2023-01-01T09:20:13 < jadew> I hope those power contacts are made from solid gold
2023-01-01T09:22:49 < jadew> does pci-express have a 12V rail? if it does, then it's probably OK
2023-01-01T09:24:29 < jadew> 5 x 12V rails, that's more than enough
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2023-01-01T14:39:05 < Steffanx-> Welcome back jadew. We were worried you got yourself locked up in a Romanian dungeon 
2023-01-01T14:51:20 < BrainDamage> maybe he was busy trying to inish a project
2023-01-01T14:53:56 < kaki> jadew: have not seen usb extension card without molex for power
2023-01-01T15:03:42 < Steffanx-> I have never seen em with the connector 
2023-01-01T15:04:12 < Steffanx-> But I hardly ever look for such card.
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2023-01-01T15:53:32 < qyx> same here, I have two, both without
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2023-01-01T16:17:51 < Laurence_b> Console Patron Unit Goddess of the Nations of CWCville and Comma, and of the Commodore Consoles
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2023-01-01T17:39:28 < kaki> cannot make sense what laurence said
2023-01-01T17:39:34 < kaki> *of
2023-01-01T17:40:00 < rustyaxe> how's that different than any other day? :P
2023-01-01T17:51:55 < kaki> yeah
2023-01-01T18:10:49 < Steffanx-> How's the hangover kaki
2023-01-01T18:11:09 < kaki> almost hangover
2023-01-01T18:11:17 < kaki> just tiredness
2023-01-01T18:11:21 < Steffanx-> Sauna time
2023-01-01T18:11:58 < kaki> hmm yes
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2023-01-01T18:23:18 < Steffanx-> Laurence_b: drugs are bad mkay!!
2023-01-01T18:28:13 < kaki> he has natural high
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2023-01-01T19:38:42 < jadew> Steffanx-, I kind of did
2023-01-01T19:39:00 < jadew> BrainDamage is correct, I've been working on something - still am
2023-01-01T19:40:03 < Steffanx-> Picologger jadew addition 2023 🥳🥳
2023-01-01T19:40:13 < Steffanx-> Edition, lil
2023-01-01T19:40:15 < Steffanx-> Lol
2023-01-01T19:40:23 < jadew> :)
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2023-01-01T20:12:26 < englishman> picologger sold with the dicknplace fyi
2023-01-01T20:12:44 < englishman> got 100% of my money back plus 4+ years of service
2023-01-01T20:12:55 < englishman> hooray inflation!
2023-01-01T20:18:16 < kaki> ?
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2023-01-01T20:19:16 < kaki> ah you sold picologger?
2023-01-01T20:20:14 < Steffanx-> He sold it all.
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2023-01-01T21:14:48 < englishman> yep
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2023-01-01T21:45:04 < Laurence_b> holy shit
2023-01-01T21:45:15 < Laurence_b> there is an autist on the loose in my hood
2023-01-01T21:45:43 < Laurence_b> police are warning residents to stay indoors
2023-01-01T21:45:57 < rustyaxe> what hood? lol
2023-01-01T21:46:20 < Laurence_b> apparently he has an autistic obsession with pouring petrol over ppl and lighting them
2023-01-01T21:46:35 < Laurence_b> thats prob worse than chris chan
2023-01-01T21:51:15 < qyx> did they find you?
2023-01-01T21:53:29 < kaki> there probs have been a misunderstanding and bobby is actually looking for lurencer
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2023-01-01T22:31:33 < Laurence_b> holy kek lollll
2023-01-01T22:31:44 < Laurence_b> >police and following a trail of burning bins
2023-01-01T22:31:48 < Laurence_b> *are
2023-01-01T22:33:03 < rustyaxe> where is this?
2023-01-01T22:33:14 < rustyaxe> i wanna see live stream of carnage damnit
2023-01-01T22:33:18 < Laurence_b> lol
2023-01-01T22:33:21 < Laurence_b> uk
2023-01-01T22:33:49 < Laurence_b> >he is going to get caught because he cant stop himself setting things on fire
2023-01-01T22:34:13 < rustyaxe> got a live stream link? I wanna see uk carnage
2023-01-01T22:34:21 < Laurence_b> nope
2023-01-01T22:34:23 < rustyaxe> i got bored of watching those drunk cunts on hacked cctv cameras last night
2023-01-01T22:34:26 < Laurence_b> lol
2023-01-01T22:34:36 < rustyaxe> yalls obsession with spyware is great
2023-01-01T22:34:45 < rustyaxe> I can just scan a couple UK ip blocks and have plenty to watch
2023-01-01T22:35:26 < rustyaxe> Not sure why chinese vendors dont bother to password protect the jpeg and rtsp h26x streams but i will no cry of it
2023-01-01T22:48:30 < jadew> englishman, that's impressive. PnPs must be a lot more expensive now
2023-01-01T22:48:55 < jadew> everything is
2023-01-01T22:49:23 < Laurence_b> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M151_%C2%BC-ton_4%C3%974_utility_truck#/media/File:Us_army_bundesgrenzschutz.jpg
2023-01-01T22:49:32 < Laurence_b> murimutts confirmed and midgets
2023-01-01T22:49:34 < Laurence_b> *as
2023-01-01T23:09:26 < Laurence_b> https://cdn.minds.com/fs/v1/thumbnail/1456295385684250638/xlarge/
2023-01-01T23:10:27 < Laurence_b> https://cdn.minds.com/fs/v1/thumbnail/1456289194644082707/xlarge/
2023-01-01T23:12:49 < Laurence_b> wtf I love Mark dice now https://cdn.minds.com/fs/v1/thumbnail/1456096295897796614/xlarge/
--- Day changed ma tammi 02 2023
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2023-01-02T01:29:12 < Steffanx-> kaki music time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgvH6tX4Ej0
2023-01-02T01:30:37 < kaki> interesting
2023-01-02T01:33:05 < kaki> you need to ping the metal heads of the channel too
2023-01-02T01:35:22 < Steffanx-> lol i dont know who.. maybe qyx 
2023-01-02T01:37:10  * karlp 
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2023-01-02T12:56:19 < Steffanx-> You a metal head karlp?!
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2023-01-02T17:23:29 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/pic/media%2FFlVsC5FXwAAif8F.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall
2023-01-02T17:28:25 < Steffanx-> Laurence_b: your autism is acting up. We cannot see whats happening in your head.
2023-01-02T17:28:34 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/pic/media%2FFlL4vx6WYAEnuw6.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall
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2023-01-02T17:33:02 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/pic/media%2FFlAyLDkXgAAirO5.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall
2023-01-02T17:37:08 < kaki> I wonder how hyper jubb is going for lurence
2023-01-02T17:37:13 < kaki> is he having a meltdown
2023-01-02T17:37:22 < Steffanx-> I think he's on holiday
2023-01-02T17:37:26 < kaki> ah
2023-01-02T17:37:30 < kaki> makes sense
2023-01-02T17:37:50 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/pic/media%2FFkyScpSXwAAVuDH.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall
2023-01-02T17:38:46 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/pic/orig/media%2FFksxN5iXgAAodCW.jpg
2023-01-02T17:41:25 < BrainDamage> I am surprised it wasn't written by an economist
2023-01-02T17:41:44 < BrainDamage> usually those are the ones that assume that everything has an exponential growth
2023-01-02T17:42:30 < kaki> 100generations of dogs is like 100years
2023-01-02T17:42:32 < kaki> nothing
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2023-01-02T19:07:45 < kaki> arent virtually all canbus tranceivers made in a way it wont trash the bus if module is not powered?
2023-01-02T19:08:34 < kaki> accepting common modes higher than positive supply
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2023-01-02T19:14:32 < catphish_> grr, every time Laurence_b posts a link and i click on it, it crashes my IRC client, not sure what's in there, but this DoS really needs fixing
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2023-01-02T19:15:02 < catphish_> oops, pressed it again
2023-01-02T19:15:36 < kaki> need to get those dopamines
2023-01-02T19:15:43 < kaki> from opening shitpost links
2023-01-02T19:16:18 < catphish_> why the fuck does that link have a url encoded "/" in it
2023-01-02T19:17:26 < catphish_> in fact, "?" and "=" are also encoded, weird link
2023-01-02T19:18:39 < kaki> what is this weak client that gets confused by links?
2023-01-02T19:32:18 < catphish_> hexchat
2023-01-02T19:32:40 < catphish_> no idea why it's so fragile
2023-01-02T19:34:03 < kaki> 2.16.1?
2023-01-02T19:42:59 -!- tct is now known as jbo
2023-01-02T19:55:34 < catphish_> 2.16.0
2023-01-02T19:58:35 < catphish_> maybe https://github.com/hexchat/hexchat/issues/2561
2023-01-02T19:59:38 < catphish_> that fix should be in 2.16.0 though
2023-01-02T20:06:56 < kaki> https://hexchat.readthedocs.io/en/latest/changelog.html
2023-01-02T20:07:13 < kaki> fix escaping already escaped URLs when opening them
2023-01-02T20:07:16 < kaki> 2.16.1
2023-01-02T20:07:21 < kaki> that one
2023-01-02T20:08:57 < kaki> we are talking about already escaped urls right?
2023-01-02T20:11:02 < fenugrec> Just installed an extra 8MB RAM in my 1993 printer. I expect thrilling performance
2023-01-02T20:11:32 < BrainDamage> I'm genuinely impressed a printer kept working for 30 years
2023-01-02T20:11:35 < BrainDamage> is it dot matrix?
2023-01-02T20:11:39 < fenugrec> LJ4+
2023-01-02T20:11:59 < fenugrec> built like a tank, weighs a ton, but you can still get toner & shit for it
2023-01-02T20:12:04 < fenugrec> I expect it will outlast me
2023-01-02T20:13:02 < fenugrec> it's ethernet-enabled, prints duplex... what's not to like
2023-01-02T20:13:34 < catphish_> kaki: oh yeah, that's probably it :)
2023-01-02T21:15:30 < specing> fenugrec: >what's not to like >weighs a ton
2023-01-02T21:15:53 < specing> the toner must also cost half a kidney
2023-01-02T21:27:55 < qyx> Steffanx-: linkin park much?
2023-01-02T21:28:25 < Steffanx-> Lol idk. I'm not into that
2023-01-02T21:31:30 < qyx> actually I would rate it 8/10
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2023-01-02T21:39:25 < fenugrec> specing, heh. actually toner is cheap/available aftermarket, on account of being compatible with other models 
2023-01-02T21:40:01 < fenugrec> https://www.inktechnologies.com/92298x-toner-cartridge-hp-compatible
2023-01-02T21:40:49 < specing> 'spensie
2023-01-02T21:40:52 < specing> 'spensive
2023-01-02T21:41:13 < specing> since 5-6 years ago I have an ink tank printer, $6 70ml refill bottle for 5k pages or so
2023-01-02T21:41:29 < fenugrec> did you have to hax DRM on it
2023-01-02T21:41:53 < specing> there's no drm
2023-01-02T21:42:18 < specing> ink comes in plastic bottles, you open the hole and pour it in
2023-01-02T21:42:26 < fenugrec> eh
2023-01-02T21:42:27 < fenugrec> I like laser
2023-01-02T21:43:32 < specing> I print entire books with it, so cheap to use
2023-01-02T21:44:09 < octorian> Okay, so there seems to be some sort of new bug (or minor change exposing an existing bug) in KiCad 6.0.10 that's driving me nuts.  Running ERC on an existing design gives me "Warning: Symbol 'GND' has been modified in library 'power'."  (it does this for EVERYTHING from the power library)
2023-01-02T21:44:21 < Steffanx-> You print on dead trees specing ?!?!?!
2023-01-02T21:45:00 < octorian> Trying to go around and "update symbol from library" doesn't even fix the issue all the time.  Probably because there's no real change, just something the ERC thinks is a change.  But even plopping down a new power symbol still triggers the warning on this one schematic.
2023-01-02T21:45:22 < fenugrec> octorian, .... #kicad ?
2023-01-02T21:45:29 < octorian> oops, sorry
2023-01-02T21:45:43 < specing> Steffanx-: I print on locally sourced dead trees!
2023-01-02T21:45:56 < octorian> Nevermind :-)
2023-01-02T21:46:16 < qyx> sorry I am stuck at 5.1.14
2023-01-02T21:46:33 < specing> fenugrec: thats btw quite an expensive toner for something that's remanufactured
2023-01-02T21:46:59 < specing> what does remanufactured even mean... refilled at factory?
2023-01-02T21:47:47 < qyx> I hate ink jet printers because they betray you when you need them
2023-01-02T21:52:24 < fenugrec> specing, just picked first random link. IIRC some local places had it at decent prices. Haven't had to buy toner since ~ 2007 though
2023-01-02T21:52:39 < specing> you don't print much, then
2023-01-02T21:52:45 < fenugrec> yea I think they empty the cartridge, replace the transfer roller, and fill up with fresh powder
2023-01-02T21:52:50 < specing> we also didn't back in $$$ cartridge days
2023-01-02T21:53:17 < fenugrec> indeed - parts list, schems, service manual extracts, my needs are modest
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2023-01-02T22:52:40 < zyp> so I've got five boards with a stm32g0b1 and I need to give each its own i2c addr, wondering what's the least effort way
2023-01-02T22:53:13 < zyp> I'm considering just reading out the unique id of each chip and hard code the five into a switch() :p
2023-01-02T22:54:45 < qyx> smbus addressing?
2023-01-02T22:54:52 < zyp> plain i2c
2023-01-02T22:55:04 < qyx> I know, but smbus has some very simple protocol to resolve conflicts afaik
2023-01-02T22:55:22 < zyp> dynamic assignment doesn't sound «least effort»
2023-01-02T22:55:24 < qyx> maybe assing by unique ID and try to resolve conflicts
2023-01-02T22:55:28 < qyx> haha
2023-01-02T22:56:10 < zyp> side note, I'm pretty happy with the new I2C peripheral, it's quite nice to work with
2023-01-02T22:56:19 < qyx> oh yeah then ust assign by ID and when a device receives a frame with its own address as a destination, simply increase by one?
2023-01-02T22:56:41 < zyp> uh?
2023-01-02T22:57:04 < zyp> anyway, screw that, I just want five fixed addrs
2023-01-02T22:57:23 < qyx> nah
2023-01-02T22:58:13 < zyp> I wish I just slapped a few 0Rs on the board when I designed it
2023-01-02T22:58:25 < zyp> too late now
2023-01-02T22:59:08 < zyp> oh, hey, there's OTP
2023-01-02T22:59:31 < zyp> but some free option bytes would be even better
2023-01-02T23:00:10 < qyx> I am awaiting your innovation and OTP experience, I will need that too
2023-01-02T23:01:44 < zyp> hmm, doesn't look like there's any free option bytes, everything is listed either as reserved or various protection settings
2023-01-02T23:03:07 < zyp> OTP is 128x64b, each 64b can only be written once
2023-01-02T23:05:23 < qyx> interesting, ecc/checksum maybe?
2023-01-02T23:05:40 < zyp> yeah, flash is 72b wide with ECC
2023-01-02T23:06:03 < zyp> hmm
2023-01-02T23:07:35 < zyp> okay, so the reasonable options are: do a table lookup from unique ID, stick it in OTP, stick it in the last page or something, do an actual EEPROM emulation thing and stick it there
2023-01-02T23:07:52 < zyp> or just rebuild the firmware per board
2023-01-02T23:08:50 < zyp> I think the unique ID lookup will be the least effort, since that means I don't have to dick around writing anything extra anywhere
2023-01-02T23:10:52 < machinehum> https://imgur.com/a/Iki0Xzq
2023-01-02T23:19:17 < kaki> how is the weather?
2023-01-02T23:20:59 < qyx> foggy
2023-01-02T23:21:57 < rustyaxe> what happens when supply chain strife means you have to use an alternative part with a different i2c address as replacement part? :\
2023-01-02T23:22:03 < zyp> unsurprisingly enough, all five chips are from the same wafer/lot, just differs in wafer x/y coords
2023-01-02T23:22:36 < zyp> rustyaxe, this board is a one off to test some stuff for a future design
2023-01-02T23:23:54 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/fohlG.jpg
2023-01-02T23:24:09 < zyp> the stm32 is a glorified i2c io expander
2023-01-02T23:24:56 < qyx> what the hell is that vertical usb-micro-b-like weird connector noboty uses
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2023-01-02T23:26:11 < Steffanx-> Tag connect?
2023-01-02T23:28:38 < zyp> okay, doesn't get easier than that: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/Ffwe5 :p
2023-01-02T23:28:58 < qyx> ok lold
2023-01-02T23:30:03 < qyx> what are those small muxes?
2023-01-02T23:30:15 < zyp> tmux1308
2023-01-02T23:31:06 < qyx> do you like them? I am using tmux1108 for analol
2023-01-02T23:31:11 < benishor> zyp: how about you use gpios for address?
2023-01-02T23:31:15 < benishor> fo you have those available?
2023-01-02T23:31:20 < zyp> qyx, that's what I built this board to find out
2023-01-02T23:31:47 < qyx> idk what's the difference actually
2023-01-02T23:32:26 < qyx> 1108 is probably with even lower leakage
2023-01-02T23:32:32 < zyp> if it works to chain them and push 100MHz+ trace through them, I'm gonna build a setup to stick 128 different microcontrollers in a box so I can do easy compatibility testing against a ton of targets
2023-01-02T23:32:43 < zyp> because target quirks is the hardest part of doing a debugger
2023-01-02T23:32:59 < qyx> yes 1308 has 0.8 uA off state leakage, 1108 has 0.004 uA
2023-01-02T23:33:41 < zyp> 1108 specs 90 MHz BW, 1308 specs 500 MHz
2023-01-02T23:34:11 < zyp> I don't really care about leakage, just gotta go fast
2023-01-02T23:35:15 < zyp> haven't tested trace yet, but 25MHz swd through a single board worked fine
2023-01-02T23:35:43 < zyp> I'm also curious whether I can run HS USB through these, which is why there's usb-c connectors too :p
--- Day changed ti tammi 03 2023
2023-01-03T00:06:17 < zyp> HS doesn't appear to enumerate, FS works fine
2023-01-03T00:06:40 < zyp> maybe it'd have worked better with a TMUX1309 and actual differential routing
2023-01-03T00:18:06 < zyp> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/813547772337979442/1059596314050052147/IMG_20230102_231636.jpg
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2023-01-03T01:25:48 < karlp> Steffanx-: I like some metal, wouldn't go as far as saying metalhead, but I have been known to enjoy a good few hours of some metal, and go to shows now and again.
2023-01-03T01:26:10 < karlp> not enough to have scene friends, and most of my friends are more on the dancy/techno end, 
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2023-01-03T02:51:47 < fenugrec> musics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_mu3moUB7A
2023-01-03T02:52:53 < fenugrec> heh, wondering why I can't mount this oldass HDD... it's formatted on a big-endian system !
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2023-01-03T12:05:22 < catphish> fenugrec: what crappy filesystem has non-specific endianness?
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2023-01-03T12:25:20 < qyx> try to answer what common oldass hardware seller used big endian processors
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2023-01-03T13:24:27 < catphish> shoutout to ARM and friends that can fetch data in either endian!
2023-01-03T13:25:54 < catphish> not many CPUs are purely big endian, which is a shame, i like big endian in my protocols
2023-01-03T13:43:48 < rajkosto> i know a router vendor that switched from mips big endian to mips little endian for the next generation of products for no real reason in 2020
2023-01-03T13:45:17 < qyx> mikrotik?
2023-01-03T13:45:35 < rajkosto> nah
2023-01-03T14:08:46 < zyp> catphish, which archs can fetch in either endian?
2023-01-03T14:15:20 < zyp> ah, ARM parts that implements the PSR.E flag can
2023-01-03T14:15:37 < zyp> so cortex-m can't, but cortex-a can
2023-01-03T14:19:41 < catphish> zyp: i guess it's a big global change, so you probably don't want to be using it "on the fly"
2023-01-03T14:20:07 < catphish> but if designing a system to interact solely with network protocols, i can see the benefit to changing it
2023-01-03T14:21:06 < zyp> well, it's a PSR flag, so not really
2023-01-03T14:21:26 < zyp> i.e. it's part of the current thread context
2023-01-03T14:22:24 < zyp> but I'm guessing compilers doesn't emit switching as an optimization, so it'll probably have to be done manually, so it's probably only used where it really matters
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2023-01-03T14:28:10 < mawk> there's a syscall to change it
2023-01-03T14:28:29 < mawk> prctl(PR_SET_ENDIAN, ...)
2023-01-03T14:28:38 < mawk> if you have to play with that on a cortex A
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2023-01-03T15:28:08 < Laurence_b> one less grrrl on /pol/  https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63736944
2023-01-03T15:28:59 < Laurence_b> >autism
2023-01-03T15:55:26 < fenugrec> catphish, HDD is from a mc68k based LA (hp1660)
2023-01-03T15:55:43 < fenugrec> they did their own take on FAT16 apparently
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2023-01-03T16:15:11 < catphish> nice
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2023-01-03T19:39:07 < ventYl> zyp: IIRC, Power ISA also can do both LE and BE (as an option) and for most part it should be runtime-switchable
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2023-01-03T19:41:04 < Laurence_b> lol who was this https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2023/01/racist-slogans-projected-on-rotterdam-bridge-during-new-year-festivities/
2023-01-03T19:59:36 < jpa-> if it wasn't you, it must mean there are at least two jerks on this planet
2023-01-03T20:00:00 < specing> lmao
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2023-01-03T20:06:58 < kaki> it's steff ofc
2023-01-03T20:07:21 < kaki> or Kanye
2023-01-03T20:08:55 < specing> Ye(s)
2023-01-03T20:18:30 < Steffanx-> Fuck Rotterdam kaki 
2023-01-03T20:18:54 < kaki> maybe it wasn't Kanye
2023-01-03T20:19:06 < Steffanx-> *Ye
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2023-01-03T21:07:40 < karlp> I wonder what the difference between "light" "combo" and "enhance" really means? https://bin.jvnv.net/file/Mhbp4.png
2023-01-03T21:14:12 < BrainDamage> perhaps collision managedment and/or bus appearance
2023-01-03T21:14:12 < BrainDamage> if they look like separate chips or a single entity
2023-01-03T21:15:55 < karlp> different orderables, couple of cents difference.
2023-01-03T21:16:06 < karlp> I kind suspect different rom blobs
2023-01-03T21:16:18 < karlp> zigbee vs just 802.15.4 or something.
2023-01-03T21:16:21  * karlp shrugs
2023-01-03T21:16:31 < karlp> I do _not_ need to be looking at new cpus really.
2023-01-03T21:21:07 < zyp> looking for more stuff to add to laks?
2023-01-03T21:26:56 < ventYl> oh, BL602
2023-01-03T21:27:29 < ventYl> karlp: check the firmware loading procedure. you'll probably hate it straight away
2023-01-03T21:30:54 < zyp> sounds awesome
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2023-01-03T22:01:23 < karlp> was actualyl looking at some of the other BL parts, but bl602 is definitely best documnented.
2023-01-03T22:01:33 < karlp> ventYl: can it be worse than CHxxx? :)
2023-01-03T22:02:25 < qyx> meh BL602, I gave it two hours of love and put it back to the box
2023-01-03T22:02:38 < karlp> I should really decide what else I need to do/change on this usb hub board, if I'm going to make more changes or call it good.
2023-01-03T22:02:44 < karlp> (before going to other projects again)
2023-01-03T22:03:49 < karlp> hrm, speaking of WCH, new toolchain dump. 
2023-01-03T22:03:58  * karlp tries to remember how he figured out it's git point again.
2023-01-03T22:08:23 < karlp> oh right, had to email fo rthe actual source first.
2023-01-03T22:10:37 < karlp> ok, it's still forked frrom the dec 28, 2021 riscv openocd at least, so no updates to anything there.
2023-01-03T22:12:56 < Laurence_b> does the old PAT get revoked if I regenerate a PAT on github?
2023-01-03T22:14:07 < karlp> TIL about findmnt
2023-01-03T22:20:46 < fenugrec> yes a bit friendlier output thatn just "mount" without args
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2023-01-03T23:38:55 < ventYl> karlp: is CHxxx rebooting part into bootloader, uploading firmware into RAM and then calling a flash routine in the bootloader?
2023-01-03T23:39:24 < ventYl> at least this is the reported procedure for pine64 bl602 wifi stuff
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2023-01-03T23:59:18 < Laurence_b> any git pros know why I only get this error running git inside a script ?      error: insufficient permission for adding an object to repository database
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2023-01-04T00:01:22 < Laurence_b> wait nope - its just the terminal being weird, I get the same error either way
2023-01-04T00:01:58 < zyp> did you read the message? you've got insufficient permissions.
2023-01-04T00:02:10 < zyp> probably somewhere in the .git dir
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2023-01-04T00:02:28 < Laurence_b> yeah
2023-01-04T00:04:08 < Laurence_b> https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/katienotopoulos/should-you-learn-to-code
2023-01-04T00:04:12 < Laurence_b> cringe is real
2023-01-04T00:04:21 < Laurence_b> unless its multilayer satire
2023-01-04T00:32:30 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/pic/media%2FFljj7bOXgAADDI4.png%3Fname%3Dsmall
2023-01-04T00:32:45 < Laurence_b> serious science research
2023-01-04T00:33:15 < Laurence_b> top keeekkk https://nitter.pussthecat.org/pic/media%2FFljj8FFWQAgVL3l.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall
2023-01-04T00:34:05 < kaki> looks like roughly gauss
2023-01-04T00:34:53 < Laurence_b> imagine if you had a PhD in incel studies
2023-01-04T00:52:45 < Steffanx-> First class was it for you right?
2023-01-04T00:53:02 < Steffanx-> *first class degree award
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2023-01-04T01:42:59 < karlp> ventYl: hrm, not sure it's that bad.  there's a blob for flash access, but it lets you do IAP stuff for btle updates, so can't be like that.
2023-01-04T01:43:48 < karlp> and that's probably actually a fairly thin blob, really.  I'm still pretty dissapointed with how they treat debug as "nope, can't share that"
2023-01-04T01:43:59 < karlp> I wouldn't mind if their openocd wsn't so fucking flaky
2023-01-04T01:44:08 < karlp> but it really put me off even working on it further.
2023-01-04T01:44:26 < karlp> and the cost advantage vs esp32 is ... vanishingly small in smaller volumes.
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2023-01-04T01:58:19 < qyx> c23 \o/
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2023-01-04T03:27:20 < catphish_> today i remembered not to click Laurence_b's link, but why the hell do his links contain wildly unnecessary encoding
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2023-01-04T11:14:43 < karlp> I suspect it's first url is a location directive in the web server and the rest is then handed to an "appserver" whcih just happens to use internal thingsthat if you decode them look like urls.
2023-01-04T11:15:22 < karlp> could this have been done more pleasantly? of coures!
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2023-01-04T11:22:54 < qyx> because his links are usually wildly unnecessary
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2023-01-04T12:16:47 < ventYl> karlp: my only interest in BL602 came from the fact that the buffallo risc-v code in that thing is pretty capable and has MPU implemented
2023-01-04T12:19:27 < ventYl> connected license plates in california... unsurprisingly got hacked
2023-01-04T12:19:53 < ventYl> nice exhibition of state-of-art of security in IoT
2023-01-04T12:25:30  * qyx is waiting for digital trashcans to be hacked
2023-01-04T12:27:39 < karlp> ventYl: I was just entertaining re-doing a project on them instead of WCH, and just finding out if it's better or worse environment :)
2023-01-04T13:40:36 < qyx> bluetooth pros, I need to access a serial console using android, so I may use either 1. usb-c to uart bridge or 2. bluetooth-uart bridge
2023-01-04T13:41:11 < qyx> in both cases I basically need to write something to the serial console and then save all output
2023-01-04T13:41:18 < qyx> there was SerialBot in the past
2023-01-04T13:42:42 < karlp> dongs was using some adafruit blueblah app that had a bluetooth console thing built in? used the "standard" nordic btle spp replacement?
2023-01-04T13:43:38 < qyx> googling aidsfruit blah blah now
2023-01-04T13:45:40 < qyx> https://learn.adafruit.com/bluefruit-le-connect/uart-terminal
2023-01-04T13:47:56 < karlp> see? you totally got it :)
2023-01-04T13:59:03 < qyx> related https://github.com/coddingtonbear/esp32-bluetooth-bridge
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2023-01-04T14:55:47 < karlp> looks cute
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2023-01-04T15:09:18 < ventYl> karlp: fortunately I tend to land a platform after the bad days of its toolchain are already gone
2023-01-04T15:09:39 < ventYl> on the other hand it means I don't have hands on experience with trully bad toolchains
2023-01-04T15:10:04 < ventYl> except. of. automotive :>
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2023-01-04T15:26:58 < karlp> kinda cute: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/9989347
2023-01-04T15:34:03 < karlp> meh, putting this on a 2x20@2.54mm pitch seems destined to fail: https://www.eenewseurope.com/en/open-display-specification-for-development-board-add-ons
2023-01-04T15:35:36 < BrainDamage> heh, I do something of the sort with ECG, the chest mucles and diaphram induce noise on the track and when I filter it out I get indirect respiratory info
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2023-01-04T16:22:54 < fenugrec> who on earth thought this would be a good way of labeling UI buttons - https://www.techgadgetscanada.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Screen-Shot-2022-02-28-at-8.53.28-AM.png
2023-01-04T16:27:31 < jpa-> it's not like you would look at the back of the monitor anyway, the labels probably show up on screen
2023-01-04T16:27:54 < jpa-> also, i don't think that is what a "Screen Shot" means
2023-01-04T16:28:18 < fenugrec> why have icons at all beside each button then
2023-01-04T16:28:29 < jpa-> no idea
2023-01-04T16:29:08 < fenugrec> I'm trying to find a pic of an air conditioner unit I saw last year, even worse than that monitor
2023-01-04T16:29:34 < qyx> what does an aircon need besides on/off, +, -?
2023-01-04T16:29:43 < fenugrec> you'd think it would be that simple
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2023-01-04T16:31:01 < jpa-> my last workplace had 4-button environmental test chambers.. to set the temperature you needed to navigate menus labeled in shortened names to fit 8-letter LCD and the "start" option would only appear after a very specific sequence
2023-01-04T16:34:36 < zyp> qyx, temperature, mode (heating or cooling)
2023-01-04T16:35:15 < fenugrec> anyway, can't find the pic, but temp +/- buttons were not above one another, nor symmetric around anything, everything had weird pictograms
2023-01-04T16:48:13 < qyx> zyp: nah I am exactly at the point you mentioned recently, exchanging 8:1 muxes with differential 4:2 muxes
2023-01-04T16:49:14 < ventYl> heh environmental test chambers... that term pops up one not-that-old memory
2023-01-04T16:49:38 < ventYl> where stupid automotive executives wanted to load env test chamber into regular office building
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2023-01-04T18:58:59 < karlp> wat?! I don't have /dev/serial/by-id anymore?!
2023-01-04T18:59:38 < qyx> TIL /dev/serial/by-id
2023-01-04T19:00:15 < karlp> fucking https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/25238
2023-01-04T19:01:24 < karlp> and they managed to break that between rc3 and final of the last udev release.
2023-01-04T19:01:28 < karlp> well done knob jockeys
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2023-01-05T10:32:29 < benishor> karlp: just noticed it too
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2023-01-05T13:36:52 < ventYl> Q: in german university system. is grade 1 good, or bad? I presume good
2023-01-05T13:41:17 < rkta> ventYl: it's good
2023-01-05T13:58:11 < ventYl> puzzling
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2023-01-05T14:05:15 < karlp> doesn't mean they're a decent employee though ;)
2023-01-05T14:11:21 < ventYl> like, I would expect at least average
2023-01-05T14:12:05 < ventYl> or I am some kind of super-human and I am perceiving the world wrong, having unreasonably high expectations on others
2023-01-05T14:13:14 < Steffanx-> Just on others?
2023-01-05T14:14:53 < ventYl> on myself too, but that's my own problem
2023-01-05T14:15:08 < ventYl> and actually generates profit in short term... and mental issues in long term
2023-01-05T14:31:32 < qyx> work year has begun?
2023-01-05T14:34:02 < ventYl> yep
2023-01-05T14:38:05 < Steffanx-> Work year? Next year is sabbatical year?
2023-01-05T14:43:03 < ventYl> that would be great
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2023-01-05T15:46:11 < Steffanx-> So have some nice "gigs", make enough money and take that sabbatical next year :)
2023-01-05T15:46:26 < Steffanx-> Easy right?
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2023-01-05T15:51:48 < fenugrec> nice, ping to my router is either <2ms or >600ms
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2023-01-05T16:10:20 < jpa-> in most countries, it is better to start your sabbaticals in june for tax reasons
2023-01-05T16:11:59 < zyp> because two half tax years are more beneficial than one whole, due to progressive taxing?
2023-01-05T16:12:02 < zyp> makes total sense :)
2023-01-05T16:14:55 < jpa-> yeah
2023-01-05T16:15:27 < jpa-> so just 6 months of hard working left for ventYl!
2023-01-05T16:15:34 < zyp> but aren't there a bunch of countries that doesn't have tax years aligned with calendar years?
2023-01-05T16:16:29 < jpa-> in finland only companies can have non calendar tax years.. such discrimination
2023-01-05T16:17:41 < jpa-> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscal_year  but yeah, looks like LB will have to wait until October
2023-01-05T16:23:57 < karlp> as if he's urn enuff to make actual money 
2023-01-05T16:26:58 < jbo> sup
2023-01-05T16:27:53 < zyp> sup sup
2023-01-05T16:44:20 < Steffanx-> I saw your little brother  in the supermarket an hour or so ago, jbo. 
2023-01-05T16:44:39 < Steffanx-> It was truly a younger you 
2023-01-05T16:44:53 < jbo> Steffanx-, in what way?
2023-01-05T16:45:05 < Steffanx-> I  what he looked like. His face.
2023-01-05T16:45:34 < Steffanx-> In
2023-01-05T16:46:30 < jbo> awwww
2023-01-05T16:48:41 < Steffanx-> Was a very special moment 😝
2023-01-05T16:48:46 < jbo> <3
2023-01-05T16:48:52 < jbo> did he like trains?
2023-01-05T16:54:00 < Steffanx-> Haha. I have no idea
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2023-01-05T21:24:01 < machinehum> Has anyone taken anything through UL?
2023-01-05T21:24:21 < machinehum> I think someone here said it's less than 10k? But I immagine 6+ months of NRE time
2023-01-05T22:28:54 < qyx> Steffanx-: I like your last music much
2023-01-05T22:29:08 < Steffanx-> lol, the indian folk metal?
2023-01-05T22:29:12 < qyx> yeah
2023-01-05T22:29:51 < Steffanx-> Even I didnt hate it, nor did kaki :P
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2023-01-05T22:57:28 < Laurence_b> anyone here know if systemd-resolve should cache dns ?
2023-01-05T22:57:53 < Laurence_b> sudo systemd-resolve --statistics    gives a chace size of zero atm
2023-01-05T22:57:57 < Laurence_b> *cache
2023-01-05T23:08:41 < qyx> re option bytes, they are marked as unused first and then in the description as reserved
2023-01-05T23:10:19 < Laurence_b> https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/521159/configuring-stub-resolver-in-rhel-8-systemd-resolved-not-caching-dns-queries
2023-01-05T23:10:32 < Laurence_b> I tried that and no luck on rpi
2023-01-05T23:14:11 < karlp> machinehum: I have, it was fucking pain, just stupid people, and extremely opaque costing, and wayyyy to fucking slow.
2023-01-05T23:14:21 < karlp> we went through intertek in sweden, I won't use them again.
2023-01-05T23:14:37 < rustyaxe> thankfully i dont have to deal with systemd
2023-01-05T23:14:38 < karlp> I'd heard it was less pain than UL, but if that was less pain....
2023-01-05T23:20:14 < karlp> hah, bvernoux got himself a distributor on digikey: https://www.digikey.com/en/supplier-centers/benjamin-vernoux-hydrabus
2023-01-05T23:25:55 < Steffanx-> heh, long time since ive seen that guy
2023-01-05T23:32:40 < qyx> wasn't he here recently?
2023-01-05T23:32:55 < qyx> oh it was beni.shor
2023-01-05T23:33:27 < qyx> fenugrec: wifi?
2023-01-05T23:35:27 < machinehum> karlp: intertek is a company that helps you move through UL?
2023-01-05T23:35:37 < karlp> not entirely.
2023-01-05T23:35:53 < karlp> no-one's actually allowed to demand _only_ UL do the testing.
2023-01-05T23:36:04 < karlp> and intertek actually offers lawyers if some dipshit tris.
2023-01-05T23:36:32 < karlp> UL has mafia'd their way to _writing_ most of the standards, but they're not the only people allowed to certify.
2023-01-05T23:36:44 < machinehum> So they're like a precompliance... that is mandatory?
2023-01-05T23:36:55 < karlp> so intertek got us ETL marks which are legally equivalent for the US at least.
2023-01-05T23:37:00 < karlp> no, not precompliance.
2023-01-05T23:37:13 < machinehum> Oh I see
2023-01-05T23:37:28 < karlp> but UL will very much like to convince you that _onyl_ UL can test.
2023-01-05T23:37:35 < qyx> the great thing of CE is you can attach the mark yourself and play a dead bug until someone asks
2023-01-05T23:37:55 < qyx> at least if the device is not half-assed and capable pf passing
2023-01-05T23:38:11 < machinehum> Put the CE mark on it and ship it though china
2023-01-05T23:38:14 < machinehum> You guys heard of that?
2023-01-05T23:38:27 < machinehum> https://sound-au.com/articles/dangerous.htm
2023-01-05T23:38:42 < karlp> that's no tthe same at all
2023-01-05T23:38:57 < karlp> it's all about whether you have any desire for your company to exist in the future.
2023-01-05T23:39:20 < karlp> and you realllly need to read what people are claiming, a simple "CE mark" doesn't mean much without further investigation...
2023-01-05T23:39:35 < karlp> despite what customs agents seem to think...
2023-01-05T23:40:27 < karlp> the worst part of the testing was honestly that I used the IEEE harmonized standard, and didn't pay UL extra for their "adjusted" version
2023-01-05T23:40:38 < karlp> so I was missing the specific wording that they required to be used.
2023-01-05T23:40:55 < karlp> so another round of doc updates or two, until they were happy, and pdf searching for the addendums.
2023-01-05T23:40:59 < karlp> fuck UL hard.
2023-01-05T23:41:02 < karlp> zero value add.
2023-01-05T23:41:16 < karlp> at no point were any of the changes made any sort of safety improvement.
2023-01-05T23:44:40 < qyx> UL is only required for uUS market?
2023-01-05T23:48:46 < qyx> oh and canada
2023-01-05T23:49:25 < machinehum> karlp: How much did it cost all in?
2023-01-05T23:49:36 < machinehum> Not counting your time?
2023-01-05T23:50:13 < karlp> we did some CE stuff at the same time, and for a couple of products, so just the UL portion would be hard to say, mayb 6-8k?
2023-01-05T23:50:43 < machinehum> Not horrible
2023-01-05T23:50:44 < karlp> I think it was mayb 8-10k all up, but I wasn't paying all the bills, and it came in stages.
2023-01-05T23:51:03 < karlp> no... until you realize taht they they want to start charging you XXXX euro per quarter for factory insepctions :)
2023-01-05T23:51:08 < karlp> to keep your certs ;)
2023-01-05T23:51:18 < machinehum> Idk I just told the guy I'm working for the device will be safe but I'm not doing UL for you
2023-01-05T23:51:28 < machinehum> uwt
2023-01-05T23:51:30 < machinehum> wut
2023-01-05T23:51:36 < qyx> haha
2023-01-05T23:51:39 < karlp> how do you think they maintain their quality standards ;)
2023-01-05T23:51:50 < karlp> gotta send a dude on site and drink coffee and count money ;)
2023-01-05T23:52:07 < karlp> gotta "assure" that things are ok...
2023-01-05T23:52:35 < karlp> it's complicated, there's many options, and unfortunately most of it starts with "call us and tell us you want to start handing over an indeterminate amount of money and time" :)
2023-01-05T23:53:24 < machinehum> hmm
2023-01-05T23:53:54 < machinehum> Starts with buying a UL certified wall adapter 
2023-01-05T23:54:25 < machinehum> What were you making?
2023-01-05T23:55:23 < karlp> www.etactica.com
2023-01-05T23:57:51 < machinehum> Cool idea
2023-01-05T23:58:34 < karlp> new shit is mad cool :)
2023-01-05T23:58:39 < qyx> karlp: I see you also paid some marketers
2023-01-05T23:58:45  * karlp just has to finish building it....
2023-01-05T23:58:55 < karlp> at some point we did, yeah.
2023-01-05T23:59:06 < zyp> I should buy your shit some time
2023-01-05T23:59:07 < machinehum> This is your company?
2023-01-05T23:59:12 < qyx> sustainability is the right keyword
2023-01-05T23:59:37 < karlp> not just me, but most dev work is me.
2023-01-05T23:59:46 < qyx> zyp: I plan too but I am not there yet
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--- Day changed pe tammi 06 2023
2023-01-06T00:01:11 < machinehum> I just build dimmers and exploding USB drives
2023-01-06T00:01:50 < Steffanx-> Did you ever make that dimmer ic dim?
2023-01-06T00:02:03 < qyx> I offered karlp's things to two customers and in the end nobody wanted it :S
2023-01-06T00:02:43 < karlp> englishman and aandrew both used someone elses products in the end ;) but they're in NA, so there are better/different options
2023-01-06T00:03:09 < karlp> https://shop.emporiaenergy.com/products/gen-2-emporia-vue-with-16-sensors-bundle is super cheap if that's suitable for you
2023-01-06T00:04:17 < qyx> I don't want discrete CTs, I want your powerbar with modbus
2023-01-06T00:04:41 < karlp> well some people ar elike "fuck it, more spaghetti, throw CTs at it"
2023-01-06T00:04:43  * karlp shrugs
2023-01-06T00:04:53 < karlp> like this too: https://www.shelly.cloud/en/products/shop/pro-3-em
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2023-01-06T00:05:00 < zyp> hmm
2023-01-06T00:05:03 < qyx> enough spagnetti in the cabinet now and I need it to get inspected first
2023-01-06T00:05:07 < zyp> «Supports single-phase up to 240VAC line-neutral; single, split-phase 120/240VAC; and three-phase up to 415Y/240VAC (no Delta).»
2023-01-06T00:05:15 < zyp> I don't get it
2023-01-06T00:05:19 < karlp> they have another 3 phase one from the one I linked, 
2023-01-06T00:05:23 < karlp> (I've never used their stuff)
2023-01-06T00:05:32 < zyp> it says two CTs for mains
2023-01-06T00:05:43 < zyp> you can do delta with two, but need three for wye
2023-01-06T00:05:58 < karlp> https://shop.emporiaenergy.com/collections/commercial-energy-devices/products/gen-2-3-phase-emporia-vue-with-8-sensors-bundle for isntance
2023-01-06T00:06:16 < zyp> ah
2023-01-06T00:08:15 < zyp> did I mention I played electrician last week? https://bin.jvnv.net/file/ViJ23.jpg
2023-01-06T00:09:57 < qyx> I am considering it temporary installation
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2023-01-06T00:11:45 < zyp> what is?
2023-01-06T00:12:39 < qyx> we were discussing spaghetti :P
2023-01-06T00:12:48 < zyp> ah, indeed
2023-01-06T00:13:06 < qyx> is it a meter box on the left?
2023-01-06T00:13:12 < zyp> yes
2023-01-06T00:13:21 < machinehum> Steffanx-: No
2023-01-06T00:13:29 < machinehum> That part fucking sucked and didn't work
2023-01-06T00:13:44 < machinehum> I'm building shit from scratch now, it's actually quite a simple circuit
2023-01-06T00:14:32 < zyp> qyx, I was originally planning to hook up to one of the existing meters in the building and run a sub-meter for our consumption
2023-01-06T00:14:53 < zyp> but I dropped that when I saw how the existing meters are set up in the main panel
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2023-01-06T00:16:19 < zyp> building has a 400A supply that's divided between three meters, the one that I expected to hook up to is wired after a 100A breaker
2023-01-06T00:16:34 < zyp> and it's kinda pointless to run an 80A supply from a shared 100A breaker…
2023-01-06T00:17:12 < qyx> and what do you use to prefuse your 16 mm2 cable?
2023-01-06T00:17:20 < qyx> when the meter breaker is 80 A?
2023-01-06T00:17:46 < qyx> upstream I mean, in the main panel
2023-01-06T00:18:02 < zyp> I'm not sure, I'm letting the real electrician figure that out :)
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2023-01-06T00:18:29 < qyx> here you would be forced to use 80 A upstream and 63 A in your box
2023-01-06T00:18:40 < qyx> 16 mm2 is too thin for anything more
2023-01-06T00:19:12 < qyx> also it depends on the length of the cable, you could easily end with 4x25 mm2
2023-01-06T00:19:23 < qyx> because of voltage drop at rated power level
2023-01-06T00:19:26 < zyp> I sent him that photo and told him I've already got an 80A breaker I'd like to use as OV as well as room for the meter in my panel so all that should be required in the main panel is a KV
2023-01-06T00:19:28 < qyx> there is a norm for that too
2023-01-06T00:19:36 < zyp> OV and KV are overload and short circuit protection, respectively
2023-01-06T00:19:53 < zyp> electrician agreed and said that sounded reasonable
2023-01-06T00:20:25 < qyx> oh you have that thing split
2023-01-06T00:20:34 < englishman> karlp: i use iotawatt which i think is in USA yeah but shipping is expensive everywhere
2023-01-06T00:20:43 < zyp> qyx, it's common
2023-01-06T00:21:03 < zyp> at home, I've got KV and the meter in a box outside my house, and then OV in the panel indoors
2023-01-06T00:21:25 < qyx> and what do you use as "KV"?
2023-01-06T00:21:36 < zyp> at home, OV is a regular 40A breaker, KV are 63A porcelain fuses, I believe
2023-01-06T00:21:54 < qyx> it makes much more sense now
2023-01-06T00:22:09 < zyp> but yeah
2023-01-06T00:22:10 < qyx> yeah, 80 A gG fuses for 16 mm2 here
2023-01-06T00:22:17 < qyx> as a "KV"
2023-01-06T00:22:27 < qyx> and 63 A B circuit breaker
2023-01-06T00:23:49 < zyp> KV should be before the cable in case the cable is damaged, OV is typically after the cable overload is the same current in both ends and placing it indoors means it's less affected by varying ambient temperature
2023-01-06T00:23:55 < zyp> since overload protection is thermal
2023-01-06T00:25:13 < zyp> as for the hobby workshop, it's mainly a matter of wanting the breaker accessible, because I don't normally have the key to where the main panel is
2023-01-06T00:25:46 < zyp> also, this cable is PEX insulated, so it's rated for like 100A in free air
2023-01-06T00:26:38 < qyx> whats the actual designation of the cable?
2023-01-06T00:27:10 < qyx> I haven't seen it in shops here
2023-01-06T00:27:46 < zyp> let me see if I can find an english datasheet
2023-01-06T00:28:26 < zyp> https://www.nexans.no/.rest/catalog/v1/family/pdf/36385/TXXP-FLEX90-0-6-1kV-with-copper-conductor-CPR-
2023-01-06T00:28:27 < qyx> unrelated, I have a hopefully clean VDDA far away for digital circuitry, split planes, isolation resistors, filters, etc.
2023-01-06T00:28:40 < qyx> would you run that VDDA to STM32 in the digital part of the board?
2023-01-06T00:28:51 < qyx> or just make a local VDDA with a bead/cap/cap?
2023-01-06T00:30:12 < zyp> if you're doing split planes, shouldn't you run those planes along any signals referencing them?
2023-01-06T00:30:28 < qyx> yes I would need to be creative
2023-01-06T00:33:19 < zyp> hmm
2023-01-06T00:33:56 < zyp> my cable is about 40m, 16mm2 will drop around 3.42V per conductor at that current
2023-01-06T00:35:48 < qyx> 5% is allowed here
2023-01-06T00:36:03 < qyx> whoa, that's 20 V at 400 V
2023-01-06T00:37:16 < zyp> I'm more worried about short circuit numbers, but that's mostly because I don't know how to calculate them :)
2023-01-06T00:46:27 < qyx> oh who is worried about short circuits..
2023-01-06T00:48:30 < zyp> well, to be fair I'm more worried about tripping it by accident
2023-01-06T00:49:21 < zyp> with this thing: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/niFhx.jpg
2023-01-06T00:50:13 < qyx> isolation transformer?
2023-01-06T00:50:19 < zyp> yeah
2023-01-06T00:50:34 < zyp> 20kVA :)
2023-01-06T00:50:34 < qyx> it doesn't cause spikes, does it?
2023-01-06T00:50:53 < qyx> would't a motor softstarter of some kind help?
2023-01-06T00:50:59 < zyp> my understanding is that they've got a bunch of inrush
2023-01-06T00:50:59 < qyx> not VFD
2023-01-06T00:51:30 < zyp> I've seen people do tricks with resistors and contactors, so I've picked up some to try
2023-01-06T00:52:20 < qyx> but where does the inrush come from
2023-01-06T00:52:26 < qyx> magnetising current is always the same
2023-01-06T00:52:28 < qyx> it is AC
2023-01-06T00:53:00 < zyp> not my understanding
2023-01-06T00:53:14 < zyp> but I'm not an expert :)
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2023-01-06T00:53:22 < Laurence_b> doh now I killed DNS
2023-01-06T00:53:29 < qyx> let's wait for bd then
2023-01-06T00:53:38 < Laurence_b>  Cache Misses: 69
2023-01-06T00:53:39 < Laurence_b> wtf
2023-01-06T00:54:32 < qyx> zyp: what is it for? no neutral?
2023-01-06T00:54:41 < zyp> 230V -> 400V
2023-01-06T00:55:03 < Laurence_b> looks like systemd-resolve is running but wont contact network dns
2023-01-06T00:55:21 < zyp> well, transformer is originally built for 400V to 230V so center point of the wye is not hooked up since it's not required in that direction
2023-01-06T00:55:42 < zyp> I'm gonna add a connection to it
2023-01-06T00:55:48 < qyx> oh
2023-01-06T00:56:37 < zyp> it's partly so I can bring my compressor to the hobby workshop, since it's 400V and workshop only got 230V
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2023-01-06T00:56:51 < zyp> and partly for future stuff that might also be 400V
2023-01-06T00:57:35 < qyx> wat, what was on the photo then, that 400 V panel
2023-01-06T00:57:53 < zyp> it's a 230V panel, there's no neutral anywhere
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2023-01-06T00:58:49 < qyx> I don't get it, in a 3 phase system, there is 400 V between phases and 230 V between N and L
2023-01-06T00:59:03 < qyx> you don't have N in a TN-C of course, so you make one from PEN
2023-01-06T00:59:26 < zyp> it's not TN-C, it's IT
2023-01-06T00:59:47 < qyx> 3 phase IT?
2023-01-06T00:59:56 < zyp> of course
2023-01-06T01:00:23 < qyx> ok I haven't seen that in my life
2023-01-06T01:00:32 < qyx> so there is 230 V between phases?
2023-01-06T01:00:37 < zyp> correct
2023-01-06T01:00:51 < qyx> no connection to PE allowed then
2023-01-06T01:01:09 < zyp> also correct
2023-01-06T01:01:11 < qyx> ok so you make a 400 V 3 phase and connect the center to PE?
2023-01-06T01:01:19 < qyx> to get TN-C 400 V?
2023-01-06T01:01:38 < zyp> that's what I'm planning, yes
2023-01-06T01:01:52 < qyx> makes sense now
2023-01-06T01:02:16 < zyp> I'm gonna run it as TN-S though, separate PE and N except for a single bond point
2023-01-06T01:02:46 < qyx> yeah, that's considered somewhat automatic
2023-01-06T01:02:50 < zyp> not sure whether to put that in the panel or right at the transformer terminals
2023-01-06T01:02:56 < qyx> interesting that you use both TN-C and IT
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2023-01-06T01:03:28 < qyx> I mean on the grid side
2023-01-06T01:03:34 < zyp> yeah, norway is fairly unique like that
2023-01-06T01:04:03 < zyp> the thing is that traditionally most stuff were IT, nowadays everything new is TN
2023-01-06T01:04:35 < zyp> it's just not worthwhile to convert existing stuff
2023-01-06T01:06:17 < zyp> from a grid perspective it doesn't really matter, only difference is the last mile from transformer to customer
2023-01-06T01:08:17 < qyx> the only difference is if you are allowed to connect anything between PE and phases, isn't it?
2023-01-06T01:08:21 < qyx> and the voltage
2023-01-06T01:08:51 < qyx> but hey, that explains your obsession with 2 pole breakers and RCBOs
2023-01-06T01:09:02 < zyp> indeed
2023-01-06T01:09:14 < qyx> you can't really make balanced single phase circuit without PEN in IT
2023-01-06T01:09:23 < qyx> if they were single pole like in TN-C
2023-01-06T01:09:43 < qyx> *balanced across phases
2023-01-06T01:10:08 < zyp> I'm not sure I understand the argument
2023-01-06T01:11:16  * karlp watches qyx discover how fucking wild and far from normal .no is ;)
2023-01-06T01:11:41 < zyp> TN busbars go L1 N, L2 N, L3 N, L1 N, L2 N, L3 N, IT busbars go L1 L2, L3 L1, L2 L3, L1 L2, L3 L1, L2 L3
2023-01-06T01:11:49 < zyp> in both cases you get 230V single phase out
2023-01-06T01:12:22 < zyp> and for both TN-S and IT you don't really care where PE is in relation to those
2023-01-06T01:12:33 < qyx> yes except TN busbars are L1, L2, L3, L1, L2, L3 here
2023-01-06T01:12:39 < qyx> not doable with IT
2023-01-06T01:12:42 < qyx> we use single phase breakers
2023-01-06T01:12:49 < qyx> in TN-C and TN-S
2023-01-06T01:13:45 < qyx> https://www.bmelektro.sk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/20181010_134638.jpg
2023-01-06T01:13:56 < qyx> this is the most common installation here
2023-01-06T01:14:53 < qyx> this for single phase https://www.bmelektro.sk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/nov%C3%A9-isti%C4%8De.jpg
2023-01-06T01:15:48 < qyx> those photos are not the best ones and not super correct but you get the point
2023-01-06T01:16:03 < karlp> that looks like .is, 3p+n RCBO on each rail, then 1,2,3 breakers to fill the rail.
2023-01-06T01:16:13 < qyx> (eg. PEN -> PE/N split requires a separate additional PE)
2023-01-06T01:16:16 < zyp> single RCD though
2023-01-06T01:16:30 < karlp> .no does rcd+s on every breaker. iirc
2023-01-06T01:16:38 < zyp> yep
2023-01-06T01:16:53 < qyx> you call it differently?
2023-01-06T01:17:00 < qyx> rcd+s is the combined one?
2023-01-06T01:17:21 < zyp> idk, I just know the norwegian names
2023-01-06T01:17:56 < qyx> we use OFI/FA for RDCs and breakers respectively
2023-01-06T01:18:33 < qyx> FI/FA, sorry
2023-01-06T01:18:39 < zyp> anyway, a single covering everything would be annoying, you don't want to trip the entire house just because you have a shitty outdoor lamp that got filled with rainwater or whatever
2023-01-06T01:19:09 < qyx> yes and that's the reason you have more
2023-01-06T01:19:19 < qyx> exterior circuits have their own
2023-01-06T01:19:25 < zyp> or like one place I used to live where it always tripped during thunderstorms due to noise on the grid
2023-01-06T01:19:36 < zyp> well yeah
2023-01-06T01:19:47 < zyp> but if you're gonna have more, why not just put them in the breakers?
2023-01-06T01:19:48 < qyx> anyway, the only time RCD tripped here was when it broke
2023-01-06T01:20:10 < qyx> I have 3 RCDs, 24 breakers
2023-01-06T01:20:22 < qyx> now do some math, RCD is 45 €, breaker is 4 €
2023-01-06T01:21:13 < qyx> combined RCD with breaker is even more expensive
2023-01-06T01:21:38 < zyp> if you say so
2023-01-06T01:22:17 < qyx> I don't say it is correct, but we do it that way :P
2023-01-06T01:23:58 < Laurence_b> reee I cant make DNS cache work at all now
2023-01-06T01:24:12 < Laurence_b> is systemd-resolve worth attempting?
2023-01-06T01:26:31 < zyp> qyx, hmm, your breaker looks like a FAZ-B16/1, I can get that for around 6€ plus VAT, except they're not stocked because nobody buys them
2023-01-06T01:26:54 < zyp> FAZ-B16/2 is €15
2023-01-06T01:27:22 < qyx> hah you can't get two pole breakers here
2023-01-06T01:27:33 < qyx> only 1+N which you can't use in IT
2023-01-06T01:28:15 < qyx> and a combined RCD+breaker in .no?
2023-01-06T01:28:34 < zyp> looking it up, looks like PKPM2 series starts at 29€
2023-01-06T01:29:03 < qyx> pf6-25/2/03 for example if you have eatons
2023-01-06T01:29:14 < qyx> oh thats RCD only
2023-01-06T01:29:37 < zyp> I don't think it's called PF6 here
2023-01-06T01:29:55 < qyx> maybe your single-pole breakers are so expensive because nobody uses them
2023-01-06T01:30:00 < qyx> I can even get siemens for 4 €
2023-01-06T01:30:13 < qyx> cheap ones are for 2.50 € or so
2023-01-06T01:31:28 < zyp> I think this is your PF6: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/sAjLn.png
2023-01-06T01:31:34 < zyp> so €66
2023-01-06T01:31:52 < zyp> twice as much as a breaker with the same shit built in
2023-01-06T01:32:15 < qyx> .no is weird
2023-01-06T01:32:38 < zyp> :)
2023-01-06T01:32:39 < qyx> https://www.tme.eu/sk/details/002111516/nadprudove-spustace/eti-polam/etimat-6-1p-b16/
2023-01-06T01:32:42 < qyx> ths is the cheam one
2023-01-06T01:32:59 < qyx> oh even your hager https://www.tme.eu/sk/details/mbn116e/nadprudove-spustace/hager/
2023-01-06T01:33:05 < karlp> market driving pricing makes things fucking insane...
2023-01-06T01:33:06 < qyx> for 3 €
2023-01-06T01:34:03 < qyx> hager RCD is 31 €
2023-01-06T01:34:24 < zyp> nice to know in case I need more hager parts
2023-01-06T01:34:43 < qyx> and hager RCD+breaker is 42 €
2023-01-06T01:34:44 < qyx> https://www.tme.eu/sk/details/cda216j/prudove-chranice/hager/
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2023-01-06T01:35:01 < qyx> so idk why your eaton is 66 € really
2023-01-06T01:35:21 < zyp> probably because nobody buys it
2023-01-06T01:36:09 < qyx> I usually use siemens/OEZ, OEZ is made by siemens too (or in siemens factories now, or siemens bought OEZ or whatever)
2023-01-06T01:36:12 < qyx> they are the same design
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2023-01-06T16:16:50 < Laurence_b> https://hackaday.com/2023/01/05/the-dawn-of-synthetic-milk-when-milk-becomes-more-like-beer
2023-01-06T16:16:56 < Laurence_b> soyboys!!1one
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2023-01-06T16:21:36 < rustyaxe> haven't we enough of those already?
2023-01-06T16:29:03 < Laurence_b> the chadiban versus the soyboy harry
2023-01-06T16:43:27 < specing> > The production of proteins in a cheap and efficient 
2023-01-06T16:43:35 < specing> soy is like 50% protein by mass
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2023-01-06T17:24:21 < Laurence_b> >harry did class A drugs
2023-01-06T17:24:34 < Laurence_b> but poor peasants get 4 years in prison for that type of shit
2023-01-06T17:24:42 < Laurence_b> the state of this
2023-01-06T17:31:47 < rustyaxe> try being brown and in possession of a little kokain in usa
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2023-01-06T18:20:50 < fenugrec> "how does WS2813 LED work ? : [....] The BIN receives the data signal and then compares data to the DIN side after 24bit data phagocytosis "
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2023-01-06T19:11:33 < karlp> meh, can't seem to turn up the baud rate of the silabs NCP code to any faster than 115200.
2023-01-06T19:14:28 < Mangy_Dog> this is how ws2812 leds work.... https://twitter.com/timonsku/status/1611171722723741696
2023-01-06T19:15:13 < Mangy_Dog> sorry just timing you talking abou tthem... and i just run across a tweet from timon
2023-01-06T19:15:33 < karlp> did you read the whole sentence from fenugrec?
2023-01-06T19:15:47 < Mangy_Dog> yes
2023-01-06T19:16:03 < Mangy_Dog> You can actually see the phagocytosis run within the chip#
2023-01-06T19:16:12 < Mangy_Dog> if you look REALLY closely
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2023-01-06T20:25:51 < fenugrec> My biology classes are a distant memory but I wonder what technical term got translated to that
2023-01-06T20:25:57 < fenugrec> "digesting" data ?
2023-01-06T20:26:14 < mawk> serializing?
2023-01-06T20:26:26 < fenugrec> how is that a cellular biology process
2023-01-06T20:26:43 < mawk> it's not, but it's the word that makes the most sense in the context
2023-01-06T20:28:28 < fenugrec> indeed
2023-01-06T20:28:48 < fenugrec> or shifting, whatever. Context makes it pretty clear what they mean, just found the choice of word intesting : )
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2023-01-06T21:45:55 < invzim> grinding my teeth on tinyUsb and stm32cubeIDE, anyone here got it working easily?
2023-01-06T21:53:39 < jpa-> i wonder if anyone ever gets legit cube help here, or just bullying
2023-01-06T21:54:13 < Steffanx-> idk what benishor used in the end
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2023-01-06T22:18:30 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FFlqiN0SXkAUEInq.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall
2023-01-06T22:18:34 < Laurence_b> serious business
2023-01-06T22:33:52 < fenugrec> cube action yesterday : trying to get ADC+DMA code generation. Can't select ADC12 clock source, google error, find stm forum post "this is a known bug in cubemx, internal ticket #XYZ", wait for update or downgrade". Nice
2023-01-06T22:35:01 < fenugrec> code ~ works now, surprisingly. Sidenote : stm32G474 is huge
2023-01-06T22:38:17 < qyx> yes it is, I need some more
2023-01-06T22:42:19 < benishor> yeah
2023-01-06T22:42:22 < benishor> I used cube and tinyusb
2023-01-06T22:43:35 < benishor> well, cube I only used to setup the clocks and such
2023-01-06T22:44:08 < benishor> there are two or three things you need to do:
2023-01-06T22:44:26 < benishor> 1) use cube to initialize usb phy (I used fs)
2023-01-06T22:45:13 < benishor> 2) make sure to route OTG_FS_IRQHandler() to tud_int_handler()
2023-01-06T22:46:03 < benishor> 3) call tud_init() and then tud_task() as often as possible
2023-01-06T22:46:15 < benishor> and of course make sure you have the proper tinyUSB configuration in place
2023-01-06T22:46:28 < zyp> turd_init()
2023-01-06T22:46:34 < benishor> and that you add the tinyUSB sources to the project (prerequisite)
2023-01-06T22:46:38 < benishor> yey, turd powah
2023-01-06T22:46:42 < benishor> turf
2023-01-06T22:47:24 < benishor> I remembered I need to give thanks to jpa- for leading me to tinyUSB
2023-01-06T22:47:33 < benishor> when I was confused about usb device support
2023-01-06T22:47:46 < benishor> so massive thanks, jpa-!
2023-01-06T22:51:06 < invzim> benishor: thanks, tud_task was the missing piece
2023-01-06T22:51:21 < benishor> invzim: you go girl
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2023-01-06T23:01:57 < invzim> actually dug out the teledyne t2c thingie, hate debugging blind
2023-01-06T23:03:08 < invzim> motivation to use tinyusb is to a) be able to tell when a hid transfer is complete, and b) have report descriptors >255 bytes.  Know is this is doable?
2023-01-06T23:03:17 < invzim> if
2023-01-06T23:03:33 < zyp> what?
2023-01-06T23:05:04 < zyp> as long as HID is using interrupt endpoints, reports can't be larger than MPS for the endpoint, i.e. 64B
2023-01-06T23:06:20 < zyp> I'm not sure if you could cheat around that by only using set/get report control requests, but IIRC you're required to have the interrupt IN pipe in any case
2023-01-06T23:06:42 < invzim> I'm probably not using the correct lingo, HID Report Descriptors
2023-01-06T23:06:54 < zyp> ah, report descriptors, not reports
2023-01-06T23:07:06 < zyp> my bad
2023-01-06T23:07:13 < zyp> let's see
2023-01-06T23:08:29 < zyp> yep, the HID descriptor has a wDescriptorLength field for the report descriptor, i.e. 16-bit, so it can be up to 64k
2023-01-06T23:09:29 < zyp> sounds strange that you're having issues at 256B
2023-01-06T23:10:09 < zyp> usually as long as get_descriptor chunking is implemented right, you can do arbitrary sizes, and chunks are never larger than 64B
2023-01-06T23:10:28 < zyp> so typically it's gonna break around 64B if it's gonna break at all
2023-01-06T23:10:40 < invzim> I'm coming from the cube usb stack :)
2023-01-06T23:11:22 < invzim> don't remember exactly, but ran into an issue where the descriptor got too lage
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2023-01-06T23:19:11 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/pic/media%2FFl0KlxoaMAAMmwy.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall
2023-01-06T23:19:17 < Laurence_b> chadiban confirmed
2023-01-06T23:20:24 -!- Linux_Kerio [~Linux_Ker@chello085216193138.chello.sk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
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2023-01-06T23:48:02 < catphish_> is Laurence_b actually a bot?
2023-01-06T23:48:20 < catphish_> i don't understand these weird link drops
2023-01-06T23:49:36 < zyp> nah, he's just british
2023-01-06T23:49:53 < Steffanx-> Arent you obsessed with Harry?
2023-01-06T23:53:23 < invzim> brits.. with their terrible, terrible postal addresses.  Most of the time I have to santitize them via FedEx to get rid of all the shire and village stuff
2023-01-06T23:53:45 < zyp> haha
2023-01-06T23:53:59 < zyp> some of them are really weird
2023-01-06T23:54:18 < invzim> I seriously don't get it, if street, postal code and 'place' is enough - why do they add all the other stuff
2023-01-06T23:54:44 < zyp> some of them doesn't even have a street
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2023-01-06T23:58:58 < zyp> like «Blahblah House»
2023-01-06T23:59:27 < qyx> I don't have a street nor number
2023-01-06T23:59:39 < qyx> I am using the closest street name and number 0
2023-01-06T23:59:49 < qyx> or google's plus code
--- Day changed la tammi 07 2023
2023-01-07T00:01:00 < qyx> I even oficially registered that address in the post office so they know they should place my snailmail to a dedicated box
2023-01-07T00:03:45 < zyp> nice
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2023-01-07T00:04:17 < zyp> my grandparents didn't have an address beyond postal code and town name
2023-01-07T00:04:22 < zyp> if it can even be called a town :)
2023-01-07T00:04:36 < Laurence_b> is nessessary to "service <x> start" on lunix after installing a service or will it be configured to auto launch?
2023-01-07T00:04:38 < zyp> name that goes with the postal code in any case
2023-01-07T00:05:31 < zyp> but a few years ago every home in norway that didn't have a street address already got assigned one
2023-01-07T00:09:53 < qyx> but nearly all parcel services have problem with that, "oh, is it 0, it cannot be zero", I always ask why?
2023-01-07T00:10:14 < qyx> there is no norm telling what is the allowed range of addresses
2023-01-07T00:10:36 < qyx> I am using zero because I want them to call me when they are heading to the beginning of the street
2023-01-07T00:10:40 < qyx> to pick up the thing
2023-01-07T00:10:58 < qyx> and they simply don't understand that
2023-01-07T00:10:59 < fenugrec> I would like address -0.5 + 3i
2023-01-07T00:11:12 < fenugrec> "it's just a number"
2023-01-07T00:11:15 < qyx> "oh there is a zero, is that correct? where exactly do you live"
2023-01-07T00:11:25 < qyx> "before 1, as usual"
2023-01-07T00:13:21 < qyx> also, TIL about refridgerator compressors, starting relays, PTCs and similar stuff
2023-01-07T00:13:43 < qyx> I guess I am just gonna use a SSR for that
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2023-01-07T00:27:36 < qyx> Laurence_b: sounds like you are using linux the first day
2023-01-07T00:27:57 < qyx> systemctl start <service> starts it, enable <service> enables auto start
2023-01-07T00:28:10 < qyx> both are usually done autoamtically
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2023-01-07T00:41:30 < kaki> Steffanx-: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z61NEfYK0fc musics
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2023-01-07T00:57:25 < Steffanx-> kaki: Have this classic in return and think of good old sauna times: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ_hWTuSYSk
2023-01-07T00:58:28 < kaki> how did you like A-ha?
2023-01-07T00:58:50 < Steffanx-> Nah, not really.
2023-01-07T01:03:10 < Steffanx-> The well known "Take on me"  i could listen to, but.. not too often.
2023-01-07T01:04:05 < kaki> cannot listen that anymore
2023-01-07T01:04:21 < kaki> it's pretty worn track
2023-01-07T01:05:21 < Steffanx-> Got some bit rot?
2023-01-07T01:05:50 < kaki> music video has permanently been burned into my subconscious
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2023-01-07T02:37:26 < machinehum> Good news everyone
2023-01-07T02:37:48 < machinehum> i got my exploding usb unit kinda happening, needed to download windows xp
2023-01-07T02:37:56 < rustyaxe> xp? lol
2023-01-07T02:44:53 < machinehum> Yeah
2023-01-07T02:45:49 < machinehum> https://imgur.com/a/8JBxHP9
2023-01-07T02:46:18 < machinehum> I'm a youtuber now https://youtu.be/Wrcy6ySjSu8
2023-01-07T02:46:54 < machinehum> Don't know if I've shared this here yet, but basically I build a usb drive it enumerates fine but doesn't present itself as as block device
2023-01-07T02:47:32 < machinehum> so either my routing is all fucked, or there's some registers that need to be set, to tell the controller what is going on with the flash
2023-01-07T02:48:05 < machinehum> And today I actually "connected" to the controller, I don't use windows buy my win7 vm didn't work, I tried winxp and it worked lol
2023-01-07T02:48:45 < machinehum> Also... if anyone know what's those acronyms mean, or any reference please let me know
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2023-01-07T03:10:10 < fenugrec> what acronyms
2023-01-07T03:14:50 < machinehum> fenugrec: in the screenshot, CID, PAR, WPRO, DMUS, SFR
2023-01-07T03:15:58 < fenugrec> ? oh there's more than 1 screenshot. Looks like some low-level SCSI / flash tool ? where's that from
2023-01-07T03:21:58 < fenugrec> probably hopeless without the IC datasheet... or just take guesses - WPRO write protect, CID chip ID, SFR special func' register
2023-01-07T03:22:32 < fenugrec> PAR parity. Just making this up
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2023-01-07T03:28:51 < machinehum> I do have the datasheet
2023-01-07T03:29:17 < machinehum> But I don't this it has many details
2023-01-07T03:29:23 < machinehum> I'll take a look
2023-01-07T03:29:37 < machinehum> It's some software for a SM3255AA
2023-01-07T03:29:45 < machinehum> Which is a USB flash drive controller thing
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2023-01-07T03:43:09 < kaki> does the usb drive use high explosives to clear the data?
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2023-01-07T15:25:55 < chris_99> Hi, i've been converting some of the code from https://github.com/STMicroelectronics/STM32CubeWB/blob/master/Projects/P-NUCLEO-WB55.Nucleo/Examples/ADC/ADC_SingleConversion_TriggerTimer_DMA/Src/main.c to a device which uses freertos and a stm32wb55 chip,
2023-01-07T15:25:55 < chris_99> I can see some data is being transferred to aADCxConvertedData, however I get a memory manage error before I think either HAL_ADC_ConvHalfCpltCallback/HAL_ADC_ConvCpltCallback gets a chance to fire.  I don't have a hardware debugger handy at the mo' though.  Wondering if anyone might have any ideas?
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2023-01-07T16:15:12 < nerozero> Hi there, happy holidays!
2023-01-07T16:15:48 < nerozero> I have a question regarding STM32F4 SPI Slave transfer via DMA, The Transfer lags 1 byte 
2023-01-07T16:18:12 < nerozero> Let me describe a whole story. I need a 4 channel simultaneous data stream, synchronized with a single clock. What I'm trying to do is configure a single SPI as a master, and 3 more as a slave, use master SPI clock as source CLK, to clock slaves
2023-01-07T16:18:46 < nerozero> the data output by the slaves is lag 1 byte
2023-01-07T16:20:06 < nerozero> Will be appreciate any hint for that problem
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2023-01-07T16:33:26 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/pic/orig/media%2FFl3sk2kWQAEh6iG.jpg
2023-01-07T16:36:00 < specing> Laurence_b: what's that?
2023-01-07T16:36:12 < Laurence_b> personality types
2023-01-07T16:36:20 < specing> Laurence_b: btw got something for you https://libreddit.spike.codes/img/sfjyg30rsiaa1.jpg
2023-01-07T16:37:18 < Laurence_b> kek
2023-01-07T16:38:13 < Laurence_b> oh wow
2023-01-07T16:38:15 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/pic/orig/media%2FFl2f0FrXgAEGteG.jpg
2023-01-07T16:39:33 < Laurence_b> >bargain HRT from Kiev
2023-01-07T16:39:36 < Laurence_b> irl lolling
2023-01-07T16:41:36 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/pic/media%2FFi1O7bXUUAAdQvf.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall
2023-01-07T16:42:05 < nerozero> chris_99, try to increase a receiving buffer, I have strong filling that you storing too much data and have overwritten some other memory
2023-01-07T17:11:37 < chris_99> nerozero: cheers, will try that
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2023-01-07T21:24:30  * Laurence_b fails
2023-01-07T21:24:45 < Laurence_b> I tried to make a Class B amplifier with MOSFETs
2023-01-07T21:24:57 < Laurence_b> now it has spikes at each zero crossing
2023-01-07T21:25:37  * Laurence_b is trying to make a 5kV AC power supply
2023-01-07T21:26:37 < Laurence_b> wtf google https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FlDXkyOXkAAPQf0?format=jpg&name=medium
2023-01-07T22:06:36 < kaki> ?
2023-01-07T22:08:20 < Laurence_b> weird google headquarters
2023-01-07T22:09:43 < Steffanx-> Is see trains, Laurence_b  sees headhunters. 
2023-01-07T22:09:46 < Steffanx-> I*
2023-01-07T22:13:56 < qyx> jpa-: what did you use to switch the cap in your esd tester?
2023-01-07T22:38:21 < Mangy_Dog> been looking at the esp32-p4 news
2023-01-07T22:38:22 < Mangy_Dog> and 
2023-01-07T22:38:27 < Mangy_Dog> holy cow
2023-01-07T22:38:34 < Mangy_Dog> this chip is something special
2023-01-07T22:38:50 < Mangy_Dog> it might just end up being my new go to chip for more advanced projects
2023-01-07T22:39:24 < Mangy_Dog> i wont even need to use the ft810 graphics chip as its got built in 2d graphics processing
2023-01-07T22:41:17 < Steffanx-> It's probably no as cheap as the other esp32s.
2023-01-07T22:41:19 < Steffanx-> Not
2023-01-07T22:41:27 < Mangy_Dog> yeah probebly not 
2023-01-07T22:41:36 < Mangy_Dog> but if they manage to keep it under 10 dollars per chip
2023-01-07T22:41:40 < Mangy_Dog> its still amazing
2023-01-07T22:41:53 < Mangy_Dog> it appears its stm32 rival is the h7
2023-01-07T22:41:59 < Mangy_Dog> and thats roughly 20 at the moment
2023-01-07T22:43:17 < Mangy_Dog> i do suspect its going to end up being a bga though
2023-01-07T22:43:20 < Mangy_Dog> it has A LOT of io
2023-01-07T22:43:37 < zyp> so if I'm reading it right, esp32-p4 doesn't have wifi
2023-01-07T22:43:49 < zyp> i.e. it's an esp32 without a radio
2023-01-07T22:43:58 < zyp> is that the first?
2023-01-07T22:44:19 < Mangy_Dog> yeah no built in wifi
2023-01-07T22:44:26 < Mangy_Dog> but can be paired with a wifi chip
2023-01-07T22:44:38 < zyp> anything can be paired with a wifi chip
2023-01-07T22:44:42 < Mangy_Dog> well indeed
2023-01-07T22:45:41 < zyp> «ESP32-P4 has more than 50 programmable GPIOs, which is significantly more than those of any other Espressif SoC to date.» I find this amusing :)
2023-01-07T22:45:55 < Mangy_Dog> nods
2023-01-07T22:46:09 < Mangy_Dog> im really keen to know how one can interface with the graphics chip
2023-01-07T22:46:21 < zyp> chip?
2023-01-07T22:46:22 < Mangy_Dog> does it just accept traditional opengl like commands
2023-01-07T22:46:31 < Mangy_Dog> yeah it has a 2d graphics processor built in
2023-01-07T22:46:48 < Mangy_Dog> my guess something comparable to the ft810 i use
2023-01-07T22:46:51 < Mangy_Dog> but maybe not as limited
2023-01-07T22:47:11 < Mangy_Dog> maybe no command limit size ext
2023-01-07T22:47:20 < zyp> ah, the graphic acceleration peripheral
2023-01-07T22:47:27 < zyp> I think you might be expecting too much
2023-01-07T22:47:42 < Mangy_Dog> i hope not :p
2023-01-07T22:47:50 < Mangy_Dog> im not expecting to play many games on it ~:D
2023-01-07T22:47:58 < Mangy_Dog> but if i can do what i do with the eve chip on this
2023-01-07T22:48:02 < Mangy_Dog> without needing an eve chip
2023-01-07T22:48:05 < Mangy_Dog> that would be great
2023-01-07T22:48:17 < Mangy_Dog> esp if theres no command limit
2023-01-07T22:48:22 < Mangy_Dog> i could do full pages of text
2023-01-07T22:48:38 < Steffanx-> What can a  eve chip do you can't do at 400 MHz with lvgl or ugfx 
2023-01-07T22:49:01 < Mangy_Dog> 60 fps?
2023-01-07T22:49:03 < zyp> I bet that the acceleration features are comparable to stm32s DMA2D
2023-01-07T22:49:43 < zyp> i.e. simply data moving with stride and pixel format conversion
2023-01-07T22:50:16 < Mangy_Dog> hmm
2023-01-07T22:50:44 < zyp> which are absolutely useful stuff, but probably not what you're imagining
2023-01-07T22:51:19 < Mangy_Dog> maybwe
2023-01-07T22:51:30 < Mangy_Dog> but still interested to see where i can take this
2023-01-07T22:51:41 < Mangy_Dog> i think id like to use it on the smart knob project
2023-01-07T22:51:50 < Mangy_Dog> was going to be the normal esp32 and the eve chip
2023-01-07T22:51:54 < zyp> DMA2D is effectively a blitter, ref. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitter
2023-01-07T22:51:55 < Mangy_Dog> but this might be the new thing
2023-01-07T22:52:31 < Mangy_Dog> oh and also h264 decoding
2023-01-07T22:52:43 < Mangy_Dog> curious to see what res i can do
2023-01-07T22:52:46 < Mangy_Dog> i guess not HD
2023-01-07T22:53:04 < zyp> depends how fast you want to do it :)
2023-01-07T22:53:35 < Laurence_b> h.264 and csi are interesting, rest is meh
2023-01-07T22:53:57 < zyp> I wonder what memory interfaces it supports, if the MSPI stuff includes hyperbus
2023-01-07T22:54:49 < Mangy_Dog> it says it can use external ram and flash
2023-01-07T22:54:53 < Mangy_Dog> doesnt say what interface
2023-01-07T22:55:04 < zyp> hence why I wonder :)
2023-01-07T22:55:18 < Mangy_Dog> well it would be at least qspi :p
2023-01-07T22:55:25 < Mangy_Dog> anything above that no idea
2023-01-07T22:55:45 < zyp> hyperbus is kinda octospi
2023-01-07T22:55:54 < zyp> the stm32 octospi peripheral can also do hyperbus
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--- Day changed su tammi 08 2023
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2023-01-08T00:04:08 < Laurence_b> wtf
2023-01-08T00:04:10 < Laurence_b> wtf
2023-01-08T00:04:11 < Laurence_b> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrc632oilWo
2023-01-08T00:04:17 < Laurence_b> they actually built that madness
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2023-01-08T01:17:22 < braindamage> if it works, it'd be more of a kinetic weapon than a launch system
2023-01-08T01:22:51 < zyp> a kinetic weapon is by definition a launch system
2023-01-08T01:23:22 < braindamage> I meant without an actual functional payload
2023-01-08T01:24:50 < kaki> they have done successful test already right?
2023-01-08T01:25:03 < rustyaxe> Just make it heavy as hell and precisely calculate the trajectory, it'll fuck shit up on reentry if you get that right :P
2023-01-08T01:25:29 < rustyaxe> Imagine lobbing a mass of DU at something at supersonic speeds kek
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2023-01-08T01:33:26 < kaki> what du
2023-01-08T01:34:04 < rustyaxe> depleted uranium (u238) - they heavy not so fissionable leftover stuff that makes up most of uranium ore ( the u235 is much more easily weaponized)
2023-01-08T01:35:44 < kaki> ah yes
2023-01-08T01:38:42 < Steffanx-> Kaki eats it all for breakfast 
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2023-01-08T02:37:13 < Laurence_b> woah epin
2023-01-08T02:37:15 < Laurence_b> https://www.google.com/maps/@46.6303033,-119.6473404,3a,75y,32.19h,108.36t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipPWaVwNTa9UZt8FpJAbKj6woqQWHwN0yYg5QYOT!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipPWaVwNTa9UZt8FpJAbKj6woqQWHwN0yYg5QYOT%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi-6.7695017-ya60.143246-ro0.9622134-fo100!7i5376!8i2688
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2023-01-08T08:18:29 < jpa-> qyx: clothes pin
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2023-01-08T10:01:10 < qyx> wat
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2023-01-08T10:44:00 < jpa-> qyx: http://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/esd_tester.jpg  open clothes pin to charge, let go to zap :D
2023-01-08T10:45:24 < jpa-> the ergonomics are pretty bad though, plan was to make some 3D printed mechanism & use gold plated contact pads
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2023-01-08T12:01:14 < zyp> haha, nice
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2023-01-08T13:07:59 < qyx> jpa-: so the device was only a high voltage generator?
2023-01-08T13:09:24 < jpa-> qyx: yeah
2023-01-08T13:09:58 < jpa-> i didn't find a resonable solid state switching solution for high voltages; there are some reed relays but they are expensive i'm unsure about their current handling
2023-01-08T13:10:15 < jpa-> so for low cost, i think most reasonable is to have the "zap gun" have a mechanical switch
2023-01-08T13:10:59 < jpa-> the high voltage generator part i really made more for insulation testing
2023-01-08T13:16:01 < qyx> I was investigating the possibilities yesterday too
2023-01-08T13:16:15 < qyx> som high voltage SiC mosfets, expensive
2023-01-08T13:16:30 < qyx> I found those reed relays too for 10 kV
2023-01-08T13:16:53 < qyx> under some circumstances it could be possible to use series mosfets
2023-01-08T13:16:55 < jpa-> spark tubes could work also, trigger the spark with a transformer & the plasma conducts the high current pulse
2023-01-08T13:17:49 < jpa-> but for ESD zapping, electrical triggering seems pretty unnecessary
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2023-01-08T16:11:59 < karlp> machinehum: what are those funky tweezers in your video?
2023-01-08T16:12:50 < karlp> I wonder if chris99 has discovered yet that you can't use the ADC in low power mode on wb55...
2023-01-08T16:24:46  * jpa- is happy that machinehum's hands shake too
2023-01-08T16:25:15 < jpa-> the tweezers look fancy
2023-01-08T16:37:50 < Steffanx-> I glad to hear my subscription means a lot to you  machinehum \o/
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2023-01-08T16:40:44 < zyp> machinehum, what stencil jig is that?
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2023-01-08T16:45:43 < Laurence_b> 5G coronavirus David Icke reptilians
2023-01-08T16:45:53 < specing> hello Laurence_bot
2023-01-08T16:47:55 < Laurence_b> top keekkk https://www.gov.uk/guidance/5g-and-coronavirus-covid-19
2023-01-08T16:49:58 < Laurence_b> imagine being the gov employee being paid to write that
2023-01-08T16:50:43 < Laurence_b> inb4 "time travelling velocoraptors did not cause covid-19"
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2023-01-08T17:32:44 < englishman> they would only write it if they had something to hide
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2023-01-08T17:53:59 < Laurence_b> https://www.bbc.com/pidgin/articles/cj72yled8d4o
2023-01-08T17:55:27 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FFl5QReoWQAErNoy.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall
2023-01-08T18:02:21 < Steffanx-> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/SP2nm8EY/ai+Laurenceb.jpg
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2023-01-08T20:14:54 < qyx> any recommended 10" rackmount LTE router?
2023-01-08T20:15:22 < qyx> preferably mikrotik/ubnt, but I can't find anything reasonable
2023-01-08T20:15:38 < mawk> " ?????????
2023-01-08T20:15:42 < mawk> are you measuring in inches?
2023-01-08T20:15:53 < mawk> we have lte shit, small stuff
2023-01-08T20:15:58 < mawk> I can try to find the reference number if you want
2023-01-08T20:16:12 < mawk> I'm not sure it's rackmount, but it's so small you can screw it to some bracket and put in a rack
2023-01-08T20:17:07 < qyx> yes, because rackmount is either 10 or 19"
2023-01-08T20:17:12 < zyp> qyx, I was a little bit tempted to get the gl-x1200, but I think it got discontinued
2023-01-08T20:17:26 < qyx> is it lte?
2023-01-08T20:17:32 < qyx> let's look
2023-01-08T20:17:48 < qyx> it is for a customer's product
2023-01-08T20:20:44 < zyp> but overall for LTE it seems more reasonable to just put the LTE radio in the same unit as the antenna and power it from PoE
2023-01-08T20:21:07 < mawk> isn't a rack in a metal box usually?
2023-01-08T20:21:11 < mawk> and you want the antenna mounted outside
2023-01-08T20:21:15 < zyp> exactly
2023-01-08T20:21:26 < mawk> we don't do that, for some reason, and our LTE connection is shit
2023-01-08T20:21:32 < mawk> it's just for fallback though so it's usually fine
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2023-01-08T20:43:41 < qyx> there is no PoE nor ability to put anything outside
2023-01-08T20:43:58 < qyx> it is a device like a mobile ATM
2023-01-08T20:44:27 < qyx> only a patch or small dome antenna goes outside
2023-01-08T20:46:00 < qyx> hm it would be better to use imx6 or whatever with deterministic low power modes
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2023-01-08T21:18:33 < machinehum> karlp: The square nosed ones?
2023-01-08T21:18:51 < machinehum> Steffanx-: Thanks for your sub, yes it does mean a lot
2023-01-08T21:20:55 < machinehum> zyp: https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/1206915151/manual-stencil-printer-for-pcb?transaction_id=3129215035
2023-01-08T21:22:57 < zyp> thanks, looks convenient
2023-01-08T21:24:02 < zyp> I haven't stencilled a board myself in years, but for an upcoming project I might
2023-01-08T21:26:17 < zyp> I'm planning to do a whole bunch of different one-offs, and I don't think it's worth it to outsource assembly
2023-01-08T21:26:56 < machinehum> When you order the stencils, get a custom size, for the width select the width of the board + the width of two metal blocks
2023-01-08T21:27:21 < machinehum> If the stencil hangs too far over the width of the two metal blocks, it will bow over the board
2023-01-08T21:27:24 < machinehum> Which isn't ideal
2023-01-08T21:28:02 < zyp> I was thinking to put a bunch of different designs on the same stencil sheet and just cut it
2023-01-08T21:28:12 < machinehum> With what?
2023-01-08T21:28:26 < machinehum> JLC stencils are very affordable
2023-01-08T21:28:40 < machinehum> If you use tin snips it will bend the stencils to fuck
2023-01-08T21:30:47 < zyp> $7 adds up if you're gonna do many
2023-01-08T21:30:56 < machinehum> Fair enough
2023-01-08T21:33:31 < zyp> I figure a sheet metal cutter like this should do: https://eur.vevor.com/plate-shear-c_10810/8-203-2mm-manual-hand-shear-steel-metal-plate-shear-cutting-solid-long-handle-p_010589800419
2023-01-08T21:33:53 < machinehum> Yes
2023-01-08T21:34:14 < machinehum> I didn't know if you had one or not
2023-01-08T21:34:19 < zyp> I don't
2023-01-08T21:34:48 < zyp> maybe I could just plasma cut it, but I bet that's gonna warp it :)
2023-01-08T21:35:18 < machinehum> Probably
2023-01-08T21:51:42 < Steffanx-> machinehum, the bending.. why you dont print a few extra support blocks? 
2023-01-08T21:57:25 < machinehum> Yeah that's a good idea
2023-01-08T21:58:19 < machinehum> https://imgur.com/a/C63Do9y
2023-01-08T21:58:26 < machinehum> Wow guys looks like I found my next project
2023-01-08T21:59:36 < Steffanx-> $25 lol
2023-01-08T22:00:27 < braindamage> I use a nibbling cutter and I get very little warping
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2023-01-08T22:01:44 < Steffanx-> Just add slots with mouse-bites connections and be done quickly. (if jlcpcb accepts that)
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2023-01-08T22:17:21 < qyx> the ultimate power management of a wireless mouse is when you have to replace its buttons more often than replace the battery
2023-01-08T22:18:07 < qyx> and that's not even some chinesium, I use omrons and at least one button fails yearly
2023-01-08T22:18:19 < qyx> furious kicad clicking
2023-01-08T22:18:25 < Steffanx-> wut. i never had a mouse button fail
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2023-01-08T22:22:34 < Laurence_b> > Explain the impact of Tate’s words by creating a pyramid, showing how some actions such as using violent words could escalate to criminal behaviour.
2023-01-08T22:23:15 < Laurence_b> ancient aliens did the tate-amid
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2023-01-08T22:45:08 < karlp> I've cut jlc stencils with just scissors? what are you guys doing?
2023-01-08T22:45:49 < karlp> yeah, not sure I've ever had a mouse button fail.
2023-01-08T22:46:06 < karlp> I find poor response and jittery buttons to be indicative of needing to change thebattery thouigh :)
2023-01-08T22:46:43 < zyp> I'm using a mouse I bought in 2004, still going strong
2023-01-08T22:47:30 < braindamage> I've never had a mouse button fail either
2023-01-08T22:47:48 < zyp> I think I've fixed the cable on this thing though
2023-01-08T22:48:08 < zyp> I think I wore it out and shortened it a few years ago
2023-01-08T22:50:39 < qyx> idk then
2023-01-08T22:50:45 < qyx> you have good mice then
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2023-01-08T22:56:01 < Steffanx-> Maybe your cat is to blame
2023-01-08T22:56:24 < catphish_> maybe my cat is to blame
2023-01-08T22:58:13 < Steffanx-> Oh dear, does you cat play with the mouse?
2023-01-08T22:58:50 < karlp> I went off branded mice for a couple of years, but.... am going back to branded ones again...
2023-01-08T23:17:46 < catphish_> my cat murders them
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--- Day changed ma tammi 09 2023
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2023-01-09T06:09:21 < machinehum> Hello
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2023-01-09T10:29:25 < jpa-> https://www.lurklurk.org/effective-rust/images/transform.svg   now this really clears things up!
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2023-01-09T12:06:23 < qyx> trinamic was bought by analol?
2023-01-09T12:07:54 < qyx> oh no, maxim digested trinamic before it was acquired by analol
2023-01-09T12:45:35 < jpa-> does anyone have experience with SD card internal cache (performance enhancement function, A2 application performance class)? it seems to have no effect, small writes are just as slow with cache on vs. cache off
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2023-01-09T12:46:16 < Laurence_b> Gamestop and the Charlottesville Fashion Square are both excellent locations to attract a boyfriend-free transgirl.
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2023-01-09T14:31:09 < drzacek> hello there
2023-01-09T14:32:04 < drzacek> my stm32 boards can read AB encoders - I put the timer in the encoder mode, connect A and B to the right pins and done - the counter holds the position
2023-01-09T14:32:46 < drzacek> but what if I would like to simulate an encoder - aka, make stm32 generate fake A/B signals?
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2023-01-09T14:33:41 < drzacek> at very low frequencies I guess doable with just flipping gpio in main(), but at higher speeds I think I'd have to use something fancy, right?
2023-01-09T14:35:07 < karlp> samet hing, timer in encoder mode? use the output channels?
2023-01-09T14:36:02 < karlp> meh, cna't get the silabs NCP shit to run reliably at any faster baud rate than 460800.
2023-01-09T14:36:11 < karlp> they document that it should work at 2M, but... nope.
2023-01-09T14:40:58 < drzacek> output channels? 
2023-01-09T14:54:59 < jpa-> timer output channels
2023-01-09T14:55:24 < jpa-> though not sure if timer in encoder mode makes sense there, but it's just two partially overlapping PWM waveforms
2023-01-09T14:56:53 < jpa-> i guess the toggle mode of the output channels would be best suited for this
2023-01-09T15:03:55 < jadew> looks like netflix decided to branch out from the woke shit and they started adding other type of movies
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2023-01-09T15:04:48 < jadew> I'm watching something now and I think I recognize one of the actresses from vintage porn
2023-01-09T15:05:02 < jadew> (the movie is from '79)
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2023-01-09T15:11:39 < rustyaxe> they've all gone wokey
2023-01-09T15:17:52 < jadew> I think they're walking it back
2023-01-09T15:18:12 < jadew> I think this is going to be a soft porn/comedy type of thing
2023-01-09T15:19:52 < rustyaxe> maybe
2023-01-09T15:22:29 < rustyaxe> i recently saw some shit that killed the shreds of faith i had left in humanity.. an "interspecies" couple -- "she is a cat" and "he is a fox" lol best i can tell it's a female human in a cat suit and a male human in a dog suit
2023-01-09T15:22:46 < jadew> on netflix?
2023-01-09T15:23:01 < rustyaxe> nah some random internet shit, but it still ruined my faith in humanity
2023-01-09T15:23:21 < rustyaxe> between that and the furry orgy at the hotel we were working at? I kinda hope that meteor hurries up
2023-01-09T15:24:22 < jadew> http://5.12.174.246/stuff/Screenshot%20from%202023-01-09%2015-11-24.png
2023-01-09T15:24:28 < jadew> http://5.12.174.246/stuff/Screenshot%20from%202023-01-09%2015-12-01.png
2023-01-09T15:24:32 < jadew> http://5.12.174.246/stuff/Screenshot%20from%202023-01-09%2015-23-08.png
2023-01-09T15:24:37 < jadew> http://5.12.174.246/stuff/Screenshot%20from%202023-01-09%2015-23-16.png
2023-01-09T15:24:47 < jadew> this is not the girl I recognized tho
2023-01-09T15:24:49 < rustyaxe> That was a good story tho.. We arrive at hotel to make work.. everything's OK and normal at checkin.. Nice place! ... team goes out to explore the city... then we come back to hotel..and lobby is a furry grope fest.. Literally a hundred or more of them. 
2023-01-09T15:25:09 < jadew> but I thought the scene was funny
2023-01-09T15:25:17 < jadew> also, not the kind of stuff you normally see on netflix
2023-01-09T15:25:46 < jadew> rustyaxe, I never understood furries
2023-01-09T15:26:04 < jadew> I mean, I get sex kinks, but I don't know what exactly triggered it in them
2023-01-09T15:26:11 < jadew> or what planted the seed
2023-01-09T15:26:45 < rustyaxe> I accidentally misguessed one's species that day.. They lost their shit and broke a bunch of stuff in lobby and security escorted them out :o
2023-01-09T15:27:01 < jadew> lol
2023-01-09T15:27:24 < rustyaxe> "OHhh you arent a human when your mask is off? I dont know how this freakshow shit works. I'm an engineer nor a carnival manager" :o
2023-01-09T15:27:32 < rustyaxe> not
2023-01-09T15:30:02 < rustyaxe> I need to move somewhere earth does not try to kill me half the earth.
2023-01-09T15:32:01 < jadew> this movies is great lol: " - They've brainwashed him... they filled him with drugs. - You can't affect something that isn't there."
2023-01-09T15:35:14 < jadew> looked it up, the actress I recognized played in some soft porn in the 70's
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2023-01-09T16:18:38 < zyp> jpa-, that chart actually makes sense to me…
2023-01-09T16:30:02 < drzacek> 70s? man but that's ancient times. 
2023-01-09T16:30:31 < jadew> drzacek, in my defense, I only saw it a month or so ago
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2023-01-09T18:20:52 < fenugrec> I keep hearing about tinyusb. Does it solve any serious problems with st's basic USBFS library ? or is it just a way to have some portability
2023-01-09T18:38:09 < jpa-> knowing neither of them, i bet the API is better ;)
2023-01-09T18:39:51 < karlp> I'd hazard that it's no longer tiny though...
2023-01-09T18:44:39 < zyp> I haven't been super impressed by the little I've seen, but people seem happy with it so I figure it'd have to be fairly reasonable
2023-01-09T18:45:26 < zyp> and I bet it easily beats ST's library :)
2023-01-09T18:45:31 < zyp> and portability is a good thing
2023-01-09T18:48:29 < fenugrec> it's hard enough to get USB working solidly on a single platform, let alone multiple...
2023-01-09T18:49:50 < karlp> well, it turns otu it's just 6 different configurations of dwc_otg ;)
2023-01-09T18:50:06 < karlp> though that's not far, tinyusb does support more than just the dwc_otg cores...
2023-01-09T18:50:19 < fenugrec> usbfs_v1, v2, otg...
2023-01-09T18:52:02 < zyp> dwc_otg is wildly configurable though
2023-01-09T18:52:23 < zyp> I've read the databook that documents all the config option the IP can be instanced with
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2023-01-09T19:55:01 < qyx> we had a girl from synopsys at $work[-2]
2023-01-09T19:55:08 < qyx> she did labview
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2023-01-09T20:02:23 < zyp> one of my former coworkers went to synopsys, I tend to spot his name on the author list for new usb specs
2023-01-09T20:03:05 < kaki> synopsys is the usb company?
2023-01-09T20:03:25 < zyp> they make IP cores
2023-01-09T20:03:33 < zyp> including dwc_otg
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2023-01-09T21:05:06  * Laurence_b has rooted a TGV
2023-01-09T21:05:10 < Laurence_b> achievement unlocked
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2023-01-09T21:13:15 < mawk> lol
2023-01-09T21:13:19 < mawk> what did you do
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2023-01-09T21:25:18 < Mangy_Dog> https://twitter.com/MD_Builds/status/1612516760690778113
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2023-01-09T21:26:41 < octorian> Part of me really just wants to pay you whatever it costs to make me one.  I certainly know I drooled over similar (but probably not as good) ones at a shady prop/memorabilia store when I was a kid.
2023-01-09T21:28:49 < Laurence_b> mawk: soldered onto serial header then used a cracker script
2023-01-09T21:29:13 < Laurence_b> its a TGV dashboard, looks like its running custom kernel 2.6 build with minix
2023-01-09T21:29:48 < Laurence_b> I'd like to find out how their MVB drivers work, but it might be a binary blob, still investigating
2023-01-09T21:30:06 < Laurence_b> TGV has an insane number of MVB nodes
2023-01-09T21:30:59 < Laurence_b> every single wheel has about 40 nodes, then there are bogie sensors and door/HVAC controllers
2023-01-09T21:31:26 < Laurence_b> it has a 24bit address space and actually needs it
2023-01-09T21:33:20 < Laurence_b> I still think they should have just used ethernet like sane people - there is ethernet between devices in the dashboard but the safety critical train comms is all MVB
2023-01-09T21:35:25 < mawk> show pivks
2023-01-09T21:35:31 < mawk> what do you mean minix Laurence_b 
2023-01-09T21:35:36 < mawk> pics*
2023-01-09T21:35:47 < mawk> it's either lunix or munux
2023-01-09T21:35:53 < Laurence_b> wait no
2023-01-09T21:36:03 < Laurence_b> I got my weird lightweight stuff mixed up
2023-01-09T21:36:05 < Laurence_b> xfce
2023-01-09T21:36:41 < qyx> uh thats like mixing up apples wih hamburgera
2023-01-09T21:36:50 < Laurence_b> its an xfce desktop onto on lunix 2.6, then cron scripts fire up gui when it loads
2023-01-09T21:36:52 < Laurence_b> lol
2023-01-09T21:37:06 < Laurence_b> *ontop
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2023-01-09T22:57:30 < qyx> so, I had two designs of a measurement system
2023-01-09T22:58:04 < qyx> they have about 70% shared and the only difference is the analol frontend
2023-01-09T22:58:36 < qyx> now I started with the first one, ordered some protos, did tests, etc. made about 20 changes an did a second revision
2023-01-09T22:59:18 < qyx> I need to do some protos of the second one but nearly all changes done on the first one apply to the second one too
2023-01-09T22:59:45 < qyx> so now I have two boards in kikecad, both having about 50% changed
2023-01-09T22:59:53 < qyx> and I need to do a merge
2023-01-09T22:59:56 < qyx> and that makes me a sad panda
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2023-01-09T23:18:54 < Laurence_b> Incel Orbit livestream just started
2023-01-09T23:19:02 < Laurence_b> bah 45mins to launch
2023-01-09T23:25:27 < Laurence_b> Hymen Orbit
2023-01-09T23:26:36 < Laurence_b> >Elliot Rodger was born on July 24, 1991 in Lambeth, London, England
2023-01-09T23:26:44 < Laurence_b> lol a true britbong an hero
2023-01-09T23:39:04 < braindamage> https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/01/john-deere-relents-says-farmers-can-fix-their-own-tractors-after-all/
2023-01-09T23:39:06 < braindamage> >"This agreement reaffirms the longstanding commitment Deere has made to ensure our customers have the diagnostic tools and information they need to make many repairs to their machines."
2023-01-09T23:39:08 < braindamage> loooooool
2023-01-09T23:39:18 < braindamage> that's rich coming from them
2023-01-09T23:41:51 < machinehum> I hate performance reviews
2023-01-09T23:42:07 < machinehum> I wish they could just give me the lowest rating and call it a day
2023-01-09T23:44:11 < jadew> debugging on linux is as intuitive as you'd expect: http://5.12.174.246/stuff/Screenshot%20from%202023-01-09%2023-37-28.png
2023-01-09T23:44:38 < jadew> I guess it means... "in that general area"
2023-01-09T23:45:52 < Laurence_b> my performance review was cancelled because I was too busy performing
2023-01-09T23:46:07 < jadew> are you still hyperlooping?
2023-01-09T23:46:41 < Laurence_b> yeah
2023-01-09T23:47:16 < jadew> nice
2023-01-09T23:47:27 < jadew> how long till it's ready?
2023-01-09T23:47:27 < kaki> "if we stop this maniac even for a second the whole project might fall"
2023-01-09T23:48:21 < Laurence_b> https://pasteboard.co/9UJ7V1MiQA4w.png
2023-01-09T23:48:42 < Laurence_b>  "conductor we have a problem"
2023-01-09T23:48:43 < jadew> that looks like a train
2023-01-09T23:48:53 < jadew> wasn't this supposed to be levitating?
2023-01-09T23:49:15 < Laurence_b> nope its just a train inside a tunnel
2023-01-09T23:49:26 < Laurence_b> also the main bearing failed
2023-01-09T23:50:20 < fenugrec> dammit, where did I put my stash of 3.5" floppies
2023-01-09T23:50:46 < jadew> I know where mine is
2023-01-09T23:51:04 < braindamage> powering tgvs' computers maybe
2023-01-09T23:51:35 < fenugrec> braindamage, yea JD is beyond insolent. Who do they think believes their BS
2023-01-09T23:51:42 < Laurence_b> its dual purpose and can go on TGV to get extra money
2023-01-09T23:51:53 < Laurence_b> but not with bust bearings...
2023-01-09T23:52:33 < braindamage> between your logs?
2023-01-09T23:52:41 < jadew> so it's a hermetically sealed train?
2023-01-09T23:52:49 < Laurence_b> jadew: yeah
2023-01-09T23:52:51 < jadew> why not use existing technology if it's just a train?
2023-01-09T23:53:02 < Laurence_b> it needs to be fast and lightweight
2023-01-09T23:53:22 < Laurence_b> braindamage: wood is because someone got the wrong size springs....
2023-01-09T23:55:53 < jadew> I gotta say, this job must look great on your resume
2023-01-09T23:56:18 < jadew> - baby vibration dampener 201x - 2019?.
2023-01-09T23:56:28 < jadew> - hyperloop train engineer
2023-01-09T23:56:56 < jadew> they're going to be like "Were you driving it? That sort of engineer?" and you'll be like "No. I designed it."
2023-01-09T23:57:53 < braindamage> * between your legs?
2023-01-09T23:58:01 < braindamage> different kind of vibrations
--- Day changed ti tammi 10 2023
2023-01-10T00:05:58 < Laurence_b> https://www.flightradar24.com/2ecccaf4
2023-01-10T00:07:20 < braindamage> so that's the secret behind laurenceb's sense of humor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckfast_Tonic_Wine
2023-01-10T00:08:08 < jadew> Laurence_b, why are we looking at that?
2023-01-10T00:08:15 < jadew> because it has no call sign?
2023-01-10T00:08:21 < Laurence_b> space launch
2023-01-10T00:08:35 < jadew> oh, is there a live stream?
2023-01-10T00:08:42 < Steffanx-> Yes
2023-01-10T00:09:05 < qyx> zyp: has you bootloadered on g4?
2023-01-10T00:10:01 < jadew> found it, but they're not showing anything
2023-01-10T00:10:10 < zyp> qyx, yes
2023-01-10T00:10:53 < qyx> is it really required to run the flashing code from sram?
2023-01-10T00:10:57 < qyx> because on F4 it is not
2023-01-10T00:11:11 < qyx> it just stalls a bit when doing writes
2023-01-10T00:11:12 < karlp> it very much is on l series, wouldn't be surprised.
2023-01-10T00:11:18 < zyp> I don't think so
2023-01-10T00:11:48 < zyp> I wrote a dual bank bootloader so it's always writing to the opposite bank to the one it's executing from, so there's no stalling either
2023-01-10T00:12:00 < qyx> I am quite reluctant to mess around with code in sram
2023-01-10T00:12:47 < zyp> bootloading happens in parallel with active regulation, so it was preferable to not do any stalling at all
2023-01-10T00:13:56 < zyp> karlp, not strictly, my l0 bootloader runs from flash
2023-01-10T00:14:22 < zyp> it's just awfully slow
2023-01-10T00:15:03 < zyp> IIRC on l0 to get any sort of speed you need to do half page writes, which requires writing a series of words without accessing the flash in between
2023-01-10T00:15:18 < zyp> but you can still do single word writes
2023-01-10T00:16:39 < zyp> https://cgit.jvnv.net/cardio/tree/bootloader.cpp#n66
2023-01-10T00:16:43 < zyp> that's l0
2023-01-10T00:16:51 < qyx> so I just need to try it out
2023-01-10T00:17:06 < zyp> qyx, if you have the option to pick a dual bank part, do so
2023-01-10T00:17:11 < zyp> it makes everything nicer :)
2023-01-10T00:17:34 < qyx> I will be doing bootloader for L0 and G4 soon
2023-01-10T00:17:52 < qyx> L0 has 16KB total, so I plan to use 2-4K for the bootloader
2023-01-10T00:18:17 < qyx> and it doesn't have to be fancy, there will always be a deterministic master doing bootloading
2023-01-10T00:18:22 < zyp> feel free to steal the linked code
2023-01-10T00:18:22 < qyx> (linux with rs485 converter)
2023-01-10T00:18:37 < qyx> no I am not a thief
2023-01-10T00:18:41 < qyx> I'll just inspire myself
2023-01-10T00:18:42 < qyx> a bit
2023-01-10T00:18:52 < zyp> feel free to use the linked code, it's BSD licensed
2023-01-10T00:19:05 < qyx> </joke>
2023-01-10T00:19:11 < qyx> k thanks I'll try it out
2023-01-10T00:19:37 < qyx> I'll need to convert it to a lower level language though :P
2023-01-10T00:19:41 < zyp> anyway, in general I like following the prepare/write/finish pattern, it tends to work well regardless of what transport you've got
2023-01-10T00:21:07 < qyx> I already have a rpc-like protocol over rs485, so yes, it should be easy
2023-01-10T00:21:10 < qyx> I like your cpp
2023-01-10T00:21:35 < qyx> your classes look more pythonic to me (no cpp/hpp splitň
2023-01-10T00:22:26 < zyp> I'm switching to C++ modules as soon as it's feasible to avoid that whole bullshit
2023-01-10T00:23:39 < zyp> I think gcc has had usable support since gcc11, and gcc-arm-embedded ships gcc12 now, so that part of the equation should be fine, but I haven't figured out what to do about the build system
2023-01-10T00:24:17 < zyp> scons still had no support last I checked, and I haven't seen any alternatives that looks suitable for my use
2023-01-10T00:24:39 < qyx> I may give c++ a try when that's ready
2023-01-10T00:24:44 < qyx> once again
2023-01-10T00:28:11 < zyp> I might end up rolling my own build system, because a lot of what I currently do with scons is already custom functionality, and if switching to C++ modules eliminates traditional include scanning then there's even less left of scons
2023-01-10T00:31:20 < qyx> I have read this and I mostly understand what are modules about https://blog.feabhas.com/2021/08/c20-modules-with-gcc11/
2023-01-10T00:32:36 < qyx> I hope there is a sensible way of importing/calling module from a C environment
2023-01-10T00:32:47 < qyx> or the other way around
2023-01-10T00:34:52 < zyp> modules makes no difference wrt. C interop
2023-01-10T00:36:16 < qyx> as I understand they make from the toolchain pov
2023-01-10T00:37:20 < zyp> do you know how you call C++ code from C today?
2023-01-10T00:37:40 < qyx> yes but oh
2023-01-10T00:38:01 < qyx> so this special compilation of headers is not required at all
2023-01-10T00:38:23 < qyx> you just compile them with gcc and do it the usual way
2023-01-10T00:38:27 < zyp> the C++ function declaration declares «extern "C"», which makes a function have C-compatible symbol naming
2023-01-10T00:39:12 < qyx> but then you need a dedicated header, no?
2023-01-10T00:39:16 < zyp> and to call it on the C side, you still need a declaration, and the typical solution now is to make a C header by taking the C++ header and ifdeffing out C++-specific code
2023-01-10T00:39:47 < qyx> so it will bring a mess to the nice c++ code
2023-01-10T00:40:04 < qyx> or you need to maintain a header
2023-01-10T00:40:14 < zyp> so I figure you can either do the same trick with the module file itself, ifdef out everything but C-compatible declarations so the file can be included from C
2023-01-10T00:40:23 < zyp> or simply add a C header for just those functions
2023-01-10T00:40:35 < zyp> I imagine the latter approach ends up being the easier and cleaner one
2023-01-10T00:41:13 < qyx> I'll probably wait for you to come up with something reasonable first
2023-01-10T00:41:42 < zyp> you could potentially also write a tool to parse a module, find all «extern "C"» functions and generate a header with declarations for them
2023-01-10T00:41:54 < zyp> maybe that already exists, idk
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2023-01-10T00:51:15 < ds2> the common way is:
2023-01-10T00:51:30 < ds2> #ifdef __XXX
2023-01-10T00:51:34 < ds2> extern "C" {
2023-01-10T00:51:53 < ds2> #endif then do your then and another one of these #ifdef's... the __XXX is a standard macro that I can't recall right now
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2023-01-10T01:15:51 < Laurence_b> lol they need to checksum the telemetry
2023-01-10T01:17:12 < Laurence_b> lol node red failed
2023-01-10T01:18:49 < Laurence_b> hmm something looks off
2023-01-10T01:18:54 < braindamage> ... why are you using that abomination?
2023-01-10T01:19:04 < braindamage> it's the labview of home automation
2023-01-10T01:25:19 < Steffanx-> It's awful
2023-01-10T01:26:42 < Steffanx-> Imaging running a train on nodded :D
2023-01-10T01:26:49 < Steffanx-> Nodered. 
2023-01-10T01:28:21 < zyp> at work we had «production» services running on nodered on an old laptop sitting in the corner of an office
2023-01-10T01:28:32 < zyp> a few weeks ago, the hard drive of the laptop crashed
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2023-01-10T01:29:33 < qyx> hah
2023-01-10T01:29:50 < qyx> hm my libopencm3 load-to-sram function fails
2023-01-10T01:30:21 < zyp> to be fair, production means customer field testing, so not too serious, but still
2023-01-10T01:30:31 < zyp> I wouldn't run anything customer facing that way :)
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2023-01-10T01:32:25 < qyx> > mdb 0x08002000 32
2023-01-10T01:32:25 < qyx> 0x08002000: 61 62 63 64 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 04 00 00 00 da 19 00 08 00 24 f4 00 00 24 f4 00 
2023-01-10T01:32:28 < qyx> works \o/
2023-01-10T01:42:04 < englishman> production requires at least a raspberry pi and a 18650 ups
2023-01-10T01:44:42 < qyx> been there done that
2023-01-10T01:44:57 < qyx> hm where to put a reset counter
2023-01-10T01:45:25 < qyx> a custom section in sram which is not being zeroed on reset?
2023-01-10T01:45:48 < zyp> https://cgit.jvnv.net/laks/tree/ld_scripts/generated.ld.j2?h=dev_v2#n45
2023-01-10T01:45:56 < Laurence_b> I think maybe it failed
2023-01-10T01:46:39 < qyx> uint32_t reset_reason __attribute__((section(".bootinfo")));
2023-01-10T01:46:54 < zyp> yeah, I use it to tell the bootloader to switch to bootloader mode
2023-01-10T01:47:06 < Laurence_b> yeah it failed, just confirmed
2023-01-10T01:47:23 < qyx> virgin?
2023-01-10T01:50:02 < qyx> zyp: a backup register sounds more proper for this, doesn't it?
2023-01-10T01:50:15 < qyx> less to keep synced between app code and the bootloader
2023-01-10T01:51:56 < Laurence_b> qyx: yeah
2023-01-10T01:52:18 < Laurence_b> be interesting to see how their telemetry "worked"
2023-01-10T01:52:30 < Laurence_b> gui was def node red, but it didnt seem to be checksummed
2023-01-10T01:53:00 < Laurence_b> looked like maybe some control issue during stage 2 burn
2023-01-10T01:58:36 < josuah> erm, sorry I feel a bit silly, but I cannot seem to find any spec on power usage from the STM32, has anyone any hint?
2023-01-10T01:59:50 < josuah> in particular in the low-power modes: without numbers I am a bit clueless :)
2023-01-10T02:00:45 < josuah> I must be blind, I see them now, straight on first page.
2023-01-10T02:01:34 < josuah> 230 nA standby mode without RTC, not bad!
2023-01-10T02:02:47 < josuah> ATtiny202 goes down to 100 nA with everything off, so kind of close in range!
2023-01-10T02:07:27 < josuah> MSP430, specifically desinged for low power, goes down to 34 nA, so a bit less than a 10-fold lower only
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2023-01-10T02:47:42 < qyx> josuah: which stm32 is that?
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2023-01-10T05:18:16 < josuah> qyx: the STM32L011 the 'L'ow power family in the smallest configuratoin
2023-01-10T05:18:21 < josuah> s/oin/ion/
2023-01-10T05:18:37 < josuah> I picked what I thought being the best of each vendor
2023-01-10T05:18:44 < josuah> and each vendor have different goals
2023-01-10T05:18:52 < josuah> well, I could have been comparing STM8's too
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2023-01-10T11:46:05 < karlp> the datasheet has it i the electrical characteristics section.
2023-01-10T12:08:34 < qyx> josuah: I would say you can't really compare L0 and attiny, despite both being the lowest end
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2023-01-10T12:11:06 < karlp> zyp: true, you can do the half word/ word flash writing, but it's unbearably slow, and I can't imagine you'd actually be satisfied with it :)
2023-01-10T12:12:05 < karlp> qyx: it doens't need much to put it in ram: https://github.com/devanlai/dapboot/blob/master/src/stm32l1/target_stm32l1.c#L127-L159
2023-01-10T12:13:59 < karlp> "braindamage | it's the labview of home automation" lol, that's exactly how I feel :)
2023-01-10T12:14:44 < karlp> qyx: yeah, I have a little section of unzeroed sram I keep reset reason counters in.
2023-01-10T12:14:48 < qyx> karlp: I just tried it and it worked out of box
2023-01-10T12:15:01 < karlp> I even have something that periodicalyl goes and collects them, and then I have .... nothing that goes and looks at them.
2023-01-10T12:15:02 < qyx> with that attribute section
2023-01-10T12:15:11 < karlp> qyx: yeah, I "managed" to get that upstream :)
2023-01-10T12:15:17 < karlp> but I developed it for dapboot :)
2023-01-10T12:15:27 < qyx> I thank you very much
2023-01-10T12:15:34 < karlp> you're welcome :)
2023-01-10T12:15:40 < qyx> it turned out I was just feared to try it
2023-01-10T12:15:45 < qyx> 4 lines of code, no hassle, works
2023-01-10T13:01:35 < qyx> hrm backup registers on L0 are in the TAMP module, not in the RTC
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2023-01-10T13:18:45 < karlp> well, TAMP module used to be functioanlity provided by the RTC module...
2023-01-10T13:18:52 < karlp> someone broke it out for "clarity"
2023-01-10T13:19:33 < benishor> one of my AX20 routers got bricked :/
2023-01-10T13:19:52 < benishor> power led flashes when starting up and that's it
2023-01-10T13:20:11 < benishor> I would consider reflashing it. anyone did this before?
2023-01-10T13:20:45 < benishor> I can spot a 4 pin unmounted footprint on the PCB, labeled J3 which I assume is a programming port
2023-01-10T13:20:59 < PaulFertser> benishor: likely serial, plain UART.
2023-01-10T13:21:10 < benishor> but not sure how to go on with it. the firmware .bin has 34MB
2023-01-10T13:21:19 < PaulFertser> benishor: but if a SOHO router can't run OpenWrt then I think the router is no good any way.
2023-01-10T13:21:40 < benishor> what is a SOHO router?
2023-01-10T13:21:56 < PaulFertser> small office home office. Not enterprise
2023-01-10T13:22:00 < benishor> ah, small office and home office
2023-01-10T13:22:05 < benishor> thanks, TIL
2023-01-10T13:22:34 < benishor> not sure how to unbrick it though. I had some power loss, fuck the electrical company
2023-01-10T13:22:45 < benishor> and it remained in this state after the power loss
2023-01-10T13:23:30 < PaulFertser> benishor: got a wikidevi link to this board?
2023-01-10T13:26:05 < benishor> PaulFertser: https://wikidevi.wi-cat.ru/TP-LINK_Archer_AX1800
2023-01-10T13:30:50 < PaulFertser> benishor: I see, so broadcrap. Well, first thing I would try is another power supply. The next would be attaching to its UART (most probably someone has already figured out the pinout).
2023-01-10T13:31:08 < PaulFertser> benishor: and for SPI NAND memory probably there're testpoints on the board to attach an external SPI master device.
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2023-01-10T13:51:18 < ventYl> I am glad to see that even in 2023 there are two thing we can rely on: both ACPI and Intel HDA are still broken
2023-01-10T13:52:12 < specing> Intel still can't produce a working CPU?
2023-01-10T13:52:19 < jpa-> is there anything related to computers that isn't broken?
2023-01-10T13:52:43 < ventYl> specing: this isn't about CPU, rather about broken standards around them
2023-01-10T13:56:02 < karlp> the standard is the implementation silly :)
2023-01-10T13:59:23 < ventYl> sad but true. I guess that especially before 2010 ACPI was handled in a way, that if you fuck up the DSDT part you can still hack it in the driver
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2023-01-10T14:02:32 < PaulFertser> ventYl: you know ACPI is now part of the official specs for arm servers too? :(
2023-01-10T14:03:28 < ventYl> PaulFertser: I've heard that microsoft pushed ACPI and UEFI through
2023-01-10T14:03:34 < ventYl> and some people even like it
2023-01-10T14:04:23 < PaulFertser> Well, limited support for EFI kinda makes sense. You can have regular u-boot just booting generic ARM SD card images with that.
2023-01-10T14:05:21 < ventYl> I am still kind-a leaned towards OpenFirmware + DT
2023-01-10T14:05:54 < PaulFertser> (U)EFI is orthogonal
2023-01-10T14:06:27 < ventYl> in what sense?
2023-01-10T14:06:44 < PaulFertser> It's not providing description or code to use hardware after OS is booted.
2023-01-10T14:07:14 < ventYl> the only "advantage" is that you can hide platform code behind ACPI VM
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2023-01-10T14:08:45 < josuah> are these the new prices of STM32 now? https://estore.st.com/en/products/microcontrollers-microprocessors/stm32-32-bit-arm-cortex-mcus.html
2023-01-10T14:09:51 < ventYl> PaulFertser: it is not? eh?
2023-01-10T14:10:25 < josuah> I do not mind paying some extra, but it is about keeping the cost of things in mind while designing things
2023-01-10T14:10:44 < josuah> <qyx> I would say you can't really compare L0 and attiny, despite both being the lowest end
2023-01-10T14:11:05 < josuah> do you mean I should not pick the lowest end of each, or should not compare these families?
2023-01-10T14:11:26 < ventYl> you should not consider AVR at all. EOF
2023-01-10T14:11:28 < ventYl> :)
2023-01-10T14:12:08 < josuah> ventYl: why is that? :)
2023-01-10T14:12:33 < braindamage> in terms of performance and features, a L0 is like a space station compared to an attiny, however, if an attiny is sufficient for your task, feel free to use it
2023-01-10T14:13:02 < braindamage> and bear the pain as consequence
2023-01-10T14:13:10 < ventYl> josuah: as someone, who essentially stopped using AVRs just by the end of 2020, I'd say that AVR is pain in the ass if you have to debug it
2023-01-10T14:13:33 < ventYl> ARMs are simply orders of magnitude more comfortable to develop on than AVRs
2023-01-10T14:13:47 < josuah> thanks to all thestandard ecosystem?
2023-01-10T14:13:52 < Steffanx-> braindamage: ever changed latest attinys? Microchip changed quite a bit peripheral wise.
2023-01-10T14:14:21 < josuah> I have seen an AVR in a battery pack, to power on a buck/boost, sense current, turn it off if nothing goes out
2023-01-10T14:14:27 < ventYl> yes, recent enough AVRs have debugwire, but it's support is somewhat limited and/or you have to buy overpriced debuggers
2023-01-10T14:14:40 < ventYl> last time I checked it, the debugger for AVR cost around 100 EUR
2023-01-10T14:14:43 < josuah> it is not like rocket science, even the crt0.S was not too bad
2023-01-10T14:15:02 < josuah> ventYl: with the latest parts, you can use a regular USB-UART dongle
2023-01-10T14:15:05 < braindamage> mmm, no, not recent ones
2023-01-10T14:15:08 < josuah> it looks like they learned from their mistakes
2023-01-10T14:15:28 < ventYl> josuah: can you connect it to some sort of GDB?
2023-01-10T14:15:33 < ventYl> preferably an upstream one?
2023-01-10T14:16:06 < josuah> and they now have a single unified architecture for everything, no more variation of the CPU architecture per family, and it goes down to the attiny up to the atmega: same crt0.S and linker script
2023-01-10T14:16:37 < josuah> ventYl: there is https://github.com/stemnic/pyAVRdbg to provide the gdb server, I did not test it yet
2023-01-10T14:17:05 < josuah> you can see by the UPDI protocol that it target only the newer parts
2023-01-10T14:17:15 < josuah> so it might have become much less bad than it was
2023-01-10T14:17:37 < PaulFertser> ventYl: well, some ACPI bytecode is used on x86 for switching power management states, but that's mostly about it.
2023-01-10T14:18:18 < ventYl> PaulFertser: in disassembled DSDTs, I've seen something, which resembled writing into I/O registers
2023-01-10T14:18:20 < josuah> if you need something lower-end than the lowest-end STM32, then maybe these could be quite nice
2023-01-10T14:18:28 < ventYl> like, don't care and simply write this shit here
2023-01-10T14:18:56 < josuah> but it is hard to compete with ARM ecosystem, and Atmel (and for until lately Microchip too) had very bad practices with these
2023-01-10T14:19:06 < ventYl> josuah: I would only consider AVR again, if there was absolutely no ARM part available
2023-01-10T14:19:25 < PaulFertser> ventYl: yes, but it's not like a whole ethernet driver is implemented that way or anything.
2023-01-10T14:19:52 < josuah> ventYl: which happens!
2023-01-10T14:20:03 < PaulFertser> stm8 is a thing too, and debuggable with stlinks and proper free software.
2023-01-10T14:20:45 < josuah> PaulFertser: I have a really hard time estimating what is low-end and high-end around st.com these days!
2023-01-10T14:20:46 < ventYl> probably the only bright thing on AVR is that it has mostly working upstream support, albeit IDK what's the status of standard libraries there. last thing i've used was avrlibc, which is dead now
2023-01-10T14:21:00 < josuah> PaulFertser: as STM32G/F/L/0 are cheapers than the cheapest STM8 on lcsc.com
2023-01-10T14:21:22 < PaulFertser> josuah: haha , then if you can get cortex-m0 for that price, surely go for it
2023-01-10T14:21:22 < ventYl> PaulFertser: was that a thing with OF? you had OF services, but I didn't see device drivers implemented that way
2023-01-10T14:21:25 < josuah> and all other prices, in cluding st.com, are 2x to 8x the prices of lscs.com
2023-01-10T14:22:12 < PaulFertser> ventYl: can't tell, don't have OF experience other than DT on modern systems.
2023-01-10T14:23:08 < josuah> Is st.com using 10nm processes? The prices suggest so! Why would I bother getting such high-end gears for thse small automation and housekeeping tasks? ^_^'
2023-01-10T14:23:38 < ventYl> PaulFertser: IME OF is essentially just DT + Forth interpreter + platform initialization code (so you don't have to have platform code living inside uboot) + code to load ELFs
2023-01-10T14:23:47 < ventYl> pretty much comparable to (U)EFI
2023-01-10T14:24:06 < ventYl> GPT even looks suspiciously similar to APT as used in OF-based PPC macs
2023-01-10T14:24:30 < ventYl> I'd say that intel simply copy-pasted OF, changed it here and there and put EFI sticker onto it
2023-01-10T14:24:38 < ventYl> josuah: AFAIK they are mostly 28nm
2023-01-10T14:25:12 < ventYl> you get very little advantage from manufacturing such parts at lower nms
2023-01-10T14:25:15 < josuah> thanks! I am not ranting here, just trying to estimate the prices before, and hopefully, after the shortage
2023-01-10T14:25:31 < josuah> ventYl: maybe disadvantages in longevity too?
2023-01-10T14:27:12 < ventYl> josuah: well, I assume that large portion of chip surface in modern ARMs is actually used up by flash + RAM, these don't scale so much with 28+++ processes. but the price for process is like 2-5x higher. so you get very little advantage for a lot of money
2023-01-10T14:28:22 < ventYl> also, you cannot crank up the speed a lot, because those Cortex-M pipelines most probably won't withstand it. and with low MHz, you are quite safe even with older processes
2023-01-10T14:28:25 < josuah> I was also told the I/O pads
2023-01-10T14:30:31 < josuah> (about what takes-up size)
2023-01-10T14:31:23 < josuah> that makes sense, unless very high-perf is wanted, but for what I do, if I need low lattency, I'd enjoy using an FPGA more :)
2023-01-10T14:35:25 < josuah> I should have been looking-up https://octopart.com/ prices tendencies rather than bothering you with these questions. I did not think about it.
2023-01-10T14:37:33 < ventYl> josuah: one additional disadvantage with using either AVR or STM8 I see is, that you have to develop and test the code for 8-bit CPU, especially maths can get puzzling there
2023-01-10T14:38:01 < ventYl> unless you manufacture literally tens of thousands of the devices, this additional time spent developing and testing the code won't pay off
2023-01-10T14:42:40 < josuah> > test the code for 8-bit CPU
2023-01-10T14:43:19 < josuah> you can still have your uint64_t division working natively (much slower though), but all registers are stuck at 8-bit max, even for 12-bit ADCs etc.
2023-01-10T14:44:44 < ventYl> much slower and the code bloats a lot
2023-01-10T14:44:55 < ventYl> as 32/64 bit math has to be emulated
2023-01-10T14:45:05 < ventYl> those routines were bulky last time I checked it
2023-01-10T14:46:14 < josuah> > time spent developing and testing the code won't pay off
2023-01-10T14:47:02 < josuah> but if the cheapest STM32 are $3 per unit on volume, but the ATtinys are $0.30, then it starts becoming significant for small products, or things that need a lot of small MCUs plugged to some BUS.
2023-01-10T14:47:36 < josuah> > those routines were bulky last time I checked it
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2023-01-10T14:47:47 < josuah> I even end-up avoiding division at all costs just for this reason ^_^'
2023-01-10T14:47:48 < Laurence_b> >hyperboss has toto:africa on repeat
2023-01-10T14:47:53 < Laurence_b> the state of this
2023-01-10T14:58:37 < ventYl> josuah: cool if you enjoy this kind of torture. I don't anymore
2023-01-10T14:59:14 < josuah> ventYl: STM32F103 is $20, that is more than the price of the whole product!
2023-01-10T14:59:43 < josuah> but I am very glad to learn (I did not know!) that these prices will go down at some point
2023-01-10T15:01:03 < josuah> I am ok buying samples at $20, but if the prices were fated to stay like that forever, I better be working on $200 devices with a single MCU ^_^
2023-01-10T15:01:18 < josuah> https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/Microcontroller-Units-MCUs-MPUs-SOCs_STMicroelectronics-STM32F103CBT6_C8304.html
2023-01-10T15:01:37 < ventYl> josuah: without knowing what peripherals you really need, I found STM32F030C6T6 at $1.76 if you buy at least 100 pcs in less than two minutes
2023-01-10T15:01:54 < ventYl> and I assume that even F030 will outperform any AVR at least by the factor of two
2023-01-10T15:02:01 < ventYl> they are even in stock
2023-01-10T15:02:14 < josuah> yes :D
2023-01-10T15:02:18 < josuah> this is great!
2023-01-10T15:02:26 < josuah> I have 0 idea of the original prices of STM32's
2023-01-10T15:02:49 < josuah> that's the fate of youngsters (I was an admin before) like me who discover STM32 during the shortages
2023-01-10T15:03:41 < ventYl> it would probably be somewhere aroun $0.30 per part in that volume, maybe even lower
2023-01-10T15:03:51 < josuah> they get completely confused by the pricing and have a hard time getting an idea of it
2023-01-10T15:05:04 < josuah> > STM32F030C6T6 at $1.76
2023-01-10T15:05:14 < josuah> LCSC is reopening the market! https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/Microcontroller-Units-MCUs-MPUs-SOCs_STMicroelectronics-STM32F030C6T6_C62514.html
2023-01-10T15:05:27 < josuah> $0.8989 on volume!
2023-01-10T15:05:37 < josuah> 13967 in stock
2023-01-10T15:06:25 < ventYl> it probably is getting slightly better. I checked TME. And TME simply resigned to any attempt to fill the stock and removed STM32 from their listings entirely during the worst shortage
2023-01-10T15:08:19 < josuah> I know why it took me so long to get started with STM32, I simply could not afford them! ^_^'
2023-01-10T15:08:39 < josuah> but now it's changing a bit
2023-01-10T15:09:39 < ventYl> the good thing about ARM is that you can pick pretty much any supplier (except Arduino!) and vast majority of what you learn there will work for you with pretty much any other MCU supplier
2023-01-10T15:10:38 < josuah> RISC-V is struggling so much to get to this point
2023-01-10T15:11:27 < ventYl> risc-v is probably just figuring out how to continue
2023-01-10T15:11:57 < ventYl> like, it has potential, but things have to settle down and come into upstream a bit
2023-01-10T15:13:14 < josuah> I share that impression
2023-01-10T15:19:25 < josuah> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wh9dPmjAnU
2023-01-10T15:27:20 < GenTooMan> R5 suffers from academic enemia. Basically people trying to write papers for research instead of making a solid foundation for the IS. ambiguity kills as they say.
2023-01-10T15:29:26 < josuah> GenTooMan: meanwhile, chinese market tkes over the whole RISC-V throwing custom protocols and OpenOCD forks and whatnot
2023-01-10T15:29:27 < ventYl> that roughly resembles the state of ARM before emerge of Cortexes
2023-01-10T15:29:46 < josuah> > https://doc.nucleisys.com/nmsis/core/get_started.html
2023-01-10T15:30:10 < josuah> it looks like someone tries to play like big ARM
2023-01-10T15:31:27 < josuah> great! even the smallest STM32 parts have DMA
2023-01-10T15:32:34 < josuah> do you ever use a single ADC to input many signals? by deconfiguring and reconfiguring it?
2023-01-10T15:32:53 < josuah> a bit like a single ADC in front of an analog multiplexer
2023-01-10T15:33:05 < josuah> that is buggy on the older AVRs, how is it on STM32?
2023-01-10T15:33:30 < josuah> You need to flush the ADC doing 2/3 readings and even then it is still a bit fragile
2023-01-10T15:35:16 < josuah> then, you get around 16x ADC for the price of 1
2023-01-10T15:35:43 < ventYl> isn't it a bit silly to assume that one vendor's implementation, which is completely unrelated to the other's vendor implementation will have the same bugs?
2023-01-10T15:42:41 < josuah> I do not really know if it is a bug or a limitation due to how SAADCs work
2023-01-10T15:44:30 < josuah> but yes you are right
2023-01-10T15:44:50 < karlp> works for me on AVRs too, not sure hwat was "buggy" for you...
2023-01-10T15:44:55 < karlp> but yes, it works on STM32s...
2023-01-10T15:45:19 < josuah> karlp: I probably ended-up with the worst part of all AVRs: the ATtiny102
2023-01-10T15:45:31 < josuah> not even supported by avr-gcc!
2023-01-10T15:45:53 < josuah> it fell down the abyss between Atmel and Microchip
2023-01-10T15:58:25 < josuah> thank you, everyone, for your koans; and sorry for involving you with my babble about loosing the sense of STM32 costs
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2023-01-10T16:50:18 < zyp> karlp, my firmwares are small enough that I didn't bother making a faster bootloader and just shipped it :)
2023-01-10T16:51:16 < qyx> lol
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2023-01-10T16:55:31 < karlp> man, I would have been fed up just in dev.
2023-01-10T16:55:38 < karlp> oh well :)
2023-01-10T16:55:49 < karlp> so, do I throw more asyncio at something, or more threads...
2023-01-10T16:56:27 < karlp> I'm kinda leaning towards threads and classic multithreading utils are going to be "easier" honestly.
2023-01-10T17:01:13 < zyp> for what purpose? this in python?
2023-01-10T17:18:47 < karlp> yeah
2023-01-10T17:19:22 < karlp> not cool enough to use js or rust.
2023-01-10T17:20:23 < mawk> the raspberry pi gpio bitbang scripts in openocd have been updated
2023-01-10T17:20:29 < mawk> and I still have no idea how the speed coefficients are computed
2023-01-10T17:20:48 < mawk> I put a value computed with scientific gut feeling and it seems to work
2023-01-10T17:21:28 < mawk> rpi 3B+ has 1400MHz maximum clock speed so I put 250×1400 as the speed coefficient
2023-01-10T17:21:48 < mawk> and 1400/25 as the delay
2023-01-10T17:21:54 < qyx> "oh I guess the SPI clock freq may be too high for this device, let's use a prescaler.. uhm ..hm 64"
2023-01-10T17:22:38 < mawk> https://sourceforge.net/p/openocd/code/ci/1d04ef3e55/
2023-01-10T17:22:44 < qyx> -> works, great, commit, push
2023-01-10T17:22:51 < mawk> lol
2023-01-10T17:26:06 < PaulFertser> mawk: there were not computed, I used my old 5 MHz CRT oscilloscope to measure how that busy-wait loop affects the TCK frequency, then fit a straight line to the values I had. For the very first rpi board.
2023-01-10T17:26:29 < mawk> oo
2023-01-10T17:26:33 < mawk> I see
2023-01-10T17:26:47 < mawk> since I have a 3B+ I had to determine new coefficients
2023-01-10T17:27:00 < mawk> and my very scientific value of using a rule of 3 seems to not not work
2023-01-10T17:27:23 < mawk> at 300kHz speed
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2023-01-10T17:30:05 < zyp> karlp, what's the advantage of classic multithreading?
2023-01-10T17:31:02 < karlp> I know the concepts and the libraries, and I don't need to be on specific subversions of python3?
2023-01-10T17:31:57 < qyx> how would you reset a reset counter on boot? if jumping to the app caused IWDG reset 10 times in a row, stay in bootloader and don't try anymore, but what if the app fails intermittently, should be the reset counter ever reset?
2023-01-10T17:32:27 < qyx> zyp: same here as karlp
2023-01-10T17:32:46 < qyx> I don't see any specific advantage of async
2023-01-10T17:32:49 < zyp> one of the obvious advantages of asyncio is that you don't have to think about threadsafety, when a coroutine is running, it's exclusively running until it gets to a suspension point
2023-01-10T17:33:13 < fenugrec> qyx, how about  N successful consecutive boots resets counter
2023-01-10T17:34:44 < qyx> fenugrec: the problem is how to determine if the boot was successful
2023-01-10T17:35:15 < zyp> also, I don't think the «specific subversions of python3» argument holds, I believe every supported version and then some ships asyncio
2023-01-10T17:37:57 < zyp> asyncio shipped in 3.4, from 2014
2023-01-10T17:44:15 < karlp> huh, just found a bug in nrfconnect.
2023-01-10T17:44:46 < karlp> zyp: there's a bunch of changes in how gather and shit work, some of the current docs are like, "since 3.11" and shit.
2023-01-10T17:46:45 < zyp> I find those mostly don't matter
2023-01-10T17:48:50 < karlp> probably not, and I'm more comfortable with asyncio than I was a few months ago...
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2023-01-10T17:54:23 < zyp> also, if you need to run blocking stuff that doesn't have provisions for asyncio, there's functions to call it in a background thread with an async wrapper around it
2023-01-10T17:55:19 < karlp> ok, I have my two asyncio tasklets running, one's swallowign btle advertisements and the other is posting mqtt updates and shit.
2023-01-10T17:55:27 < karlp> this isn't proving as hard as I'd feared.
2023-01-10T17:56:24 < karlp> cool, even does the mqtt reconnect
2023-01-10T17:56:47 < zyp> :)
2023-01-10T17:58:30 < karlp> two minutes til alarm to go home too.
2023-01-10T17:58:54 < karlp> tomorrow i'll see if I can send a binary to mqtt and have this handle reflashing one of the devices while the rest of it keeps running ;)
2023-01-10T17:59:11 < zyp> I wrote an asyncio gdbserver the other day, got one task receiving packets and another processing them (so that I can receive e.g. ctrl-c events while continue is running)
2023-01-10T17:59:23 < karlp> I should probably serialize this to json better too.
2023-01-10T17:59:36 < karlp> I don't get the problems with ctrl-c?
2023-01-10T17:59:39 < karlp> what wass't working?
2023-01-10T17:59:51 < karlp> oh, right.
2023-01-10T17:59:56 < karlp> had to change gears in my head.
2023-01-10T18:01:03 < zyp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/AIxCb
2023-01-10T18:02:15 < karlp> what did you need this at that layer for though?
2023-01-10T18:02:36 < zyp> in what sense?
2023-01-10T18:03:18 < karlp> oh, you're re-sending the commands to the underlying gdbserver?
2023-01-10T18:03:43 < zyp> ah, you're asking why I'm writing a gdbserver?
2023-01-10T18:03:58 < karlp> yeah
2023-01-10T18:04:05 < zyp> learning experience
2023-01-10T18:06:29 < zyp> I guess I'm kinda reinventing pyocd from scratch, the goal is to learn the remaining details that hacking on blackmagic and a company internal debugger haven't yet taught me
2023-01-10T18:07:43 < zyp> the problem working on existing stuff is that there's already so many quirks in them that I don't understand :)
2023-01-10T18:08:51 < zyp> eventually if this works out, I might do one in C++ based on laks to run on orbtrace
2023-01-10T18:09:06 < zyp> but as a learning experience, doing one in python is way easier
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2023-01-10T18:41:51 < jpa-> qyx: if you have any remote firmware upgrade capability, a good criteria for successful boot is when it has established connection to server or host PC (i.e. in any case you are left in a state where you can upgrade)
2023-01-10T18:43:04 < josuah> karlp: do you mean their zephyr port?
2023-01-10T18:43:21 < josuah> oops, forgot to scroll again, nevermind!
2023-01-10T18:43:37 < josuah> it was about the "bug on nrfconnect"
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2023-01-10T19:19:39 < Mangy_Dog> :/ is 3.8v being fed into a 3.3v power line be enough to kill an stm32? :/
2023-01-10T19:21:47 < jpa-> usually not
2023-01-10T19:22:12 < jpa-> after all the abs max spec is 4.0V
2023-01-10T19:22:19 < Mangy_Dog> ahh
2023-01-10T19:22:44 < fenugrec> datasheet has a "max injected current" per pin too
2023-01-10T19:22:59 < fenugrec> oh that was on VDD
2023-01-10T19:24:18 < Mangy_Dog> hmm ok
2023-01-10T19:24:23 < Mangy_Dog> chips alive
2023-01-10T19:24:29 < Mangy_Dog> as is the eve chip when i run the basic test
2023-01-10T19:24:49 < qyx> jpa-: hm yeah it could simply reset the counter remotely
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2023-01-10T19:39:01 < bitmask> I cant decide if I should code my engine in windows or osx
2023-01-10T19:39:13 < bitmask> or hell, even linux
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2023-01-10T19:44:30 < qyx> omg today I am reading the wrong RM the whole day and I am being curious why nothing works
2023-01-10T19:44:34 < qyx> including those tamper things
2023-01-10T19:46:05 < catphish> Mangy_Dog: very unlikely to explode it
2023-01-10T19:47:11 < Mangy_Dog> yeah
2023-01-10T19:47:20 < Mangy_Dog> just something funky going wrong with this board and i cant narrow it down 
2023-01-10T19:47:21 < catphish> I have a RP2040 board that runs the RP2050 on 5V and it works fine :|
2023-01-10T19:47:41 < catphish> though i was sure never to run it like that for long
2023-01-10T19:57:45 < karlp> zyp: yeah, I  was starting to say it was looking like pyocd :)
2023-01-10T19:58:04 < karlp> josuah: yah, one of the advertising data types is being decoded incorrectly, no big deal, not a common one.
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2023-01-10T21:26:41 < qyx> I like this https://paste.jvnv.net/view/iJWUv
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2023-01-10T21:50:58 < Laurence_b> >The purpose of Musks wealth is to buy Twitter so diamond and Silk can tell you Covid vaccines will turn you into a werewolf
2023-01-10T21:51:05 < Laurence_b> at last I truly see.jpg
2023-01-10T21:54:46 < Laurence_b> wait wtf
2023-01-10T21:54:54 < Laurence_b> Andrew Tate converted to islam??
2023-01-10T21:55:22 < Laurence_b> big if true
2023-01-10T21:57:18 < Laurence_b> >now he can claim the rape dungeon was all part of his religion
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2023-01-10T22:15:05 < Laurence_b> To be a tranny means surrendering your masculinity to the state, taking disarmament the next level. Surgically removing your manhood itself, and relying entirely on state power to define, delineate and protect your 'identity' - your very being is an existential contract with the state, for without its power, you would instantly revert to the
2023-01-10T22:15:05 < Laurence_b> strictures of nature's immutable laws. As a tranny you are a convert and a commissar for the regime, your energies will be taken up in promoting the cause and bringing in new converts, without the old-fashioned requirement to wade through recondite, turgid text, and dogma.
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2023-01-10T22:25:09 < josuah> karlp: I hope this is not on the SoftDevice, as it would be kind of difficult to modify!
2023-01-10T22:25:49 < josuah> unless it really happening rarely... Bluetooth might not often be involved in safety-critical situations.
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2023-01-10T23:41:31 < karlp> josuah: no, nrfconnect, the android app.
2023-01-10T23:41:51 < karlp> it's just in how it decodes a a somewhat uncommon advertising data type, it's not a big deal.
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--- Day changed ke tammi 11 2023
2023-01-11T00:10:54 < fenugrec> DMA terminology : is there anything special about the "peripheral address" reg, like how it's wired to the AHB/APB buses, or is it just a naming convention ?
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2023-01-11T00:19:56 < catphish_> fenugrec: it's just a memory address, but if it's described as a peripheral address it may need to point to a peripheral and not RAM
2023-01-11T00:20:23 < catphish_> (i think)
2023-01-11T00:21:47 < zyp> fenugrec, yes, which exact part are you on?
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2023-01-11T00:25:02 < zyp> fenugrec, for the DMA core itself, it's just a naming conversion, it has an M-port and a P-port and they're internally equivalent
2023-01-11T00:25:27 < zyp> but outside the core, they're typically hooked up differently to the memory system
2023-01-11T00:25:37 < josuah> karlp: my bad! got it now
2023-01-11T00:26:20 < zyp> the P-port typically has shortcuts to the peripheral buses to avoid memory contention, and on e.g. stm32f4, the DMA2 core can *only* access APB2 from its P-port
2023-01-11T00:27:38 < zyp> so as long as you're doing DMA to/from peripherals, you always want to use the P-port for the peripheral
2023-01-11T00:57:50 < qyx> hm, my bootloader breaks when I communicate with it too fast
2023-01-11T00:59:27 < zyp> no flow control?
2023-01-11T01:01:45 < qyx> some hardfault
2023-01-11T01:01:47 < fenugrec> zyp, ah interesting, thanks. This is on M0, not causing problems but I was wondering about that.
2023-01-11T01:01:56 < qyx> resolving python issues caused by new gdb atm
2023-01-11T01:02:09 < zyp> fenugrec, M0? as in stm32f0?
2023-01-11T01:02:19 < fenugrec> yea, F072
2023-01-11T01:03:00 < fenugrec> RM doesn't show any "shortcuts" between DMA and buses. Presumably too simple a core to warrant that
2023-01-11T01:03:18 < qyx> Fatal Python error: init_fs_encoding: failed to get the Python codec of the filesystem encoding
2023-01-11T01:04:05 < fenugrec> actually yes, DMA can go straight to AHB1
2023-01-11T01:05:38 < zyp> hmm, at a glance it looks like the stm32f0 DMA core is singleported
2023-01-11T01:05:47 < zyp> i.e. interleaving M and P accesses on a single port
2023-01-11T01:09:45 < zyp> but I'd say it doesn't really matter whether they're equivalent or not, it's a good convention to use P for the peripheral and M for the memory side of the transfer even if it'd work to swap them
2023-01-11T01:11:15 < zyp> unless you're gonna do weird stuff like grabbing data from one peripheral and sticking it right into another :)
2023-01-11T01:13:15 < qyx> what if CFSR is 0?
2023-01-11T01:13:40 < qyx> after hardfault of course
2023-01-11T01:14:15 < zyp> qyx, on what part?
2023-01-11T01:14:46 < qyx> L010
2023-01-11T01:14:52 < zyp> M0+ doesn't have CFSR
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2023-01-11T01:15:14 < qyx> oh
2023-01-11T01:15:44 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/HltTQ/Screenshot_2023-01-11_00-15-29.png
2023-01-11T01:15:48 < qyx> so it's gonna be hard
2023-01-11T01:15:51 < fenugrec> thanks zyp . Yea, not doing anything crazy, just curious. Wonder if it would hardfault if you put a regular mem address in CPAR
2023-01-11T01:16:19 < zyp> fenugrec, no, that's how memory to memory transfers work
2023-01-11T01:16:53 < fenugrec> I know - but what if you don't set the MEM2MEM bit P )
2023-01-11T01:16:56 < fenugrec> qyx, repeatable ?
2023-01-11T01:17:24 < zyp> the MEM2MEM bit just disables triggering
2023-01-11T01:17:28 < qyx> fenugrec: totally
2023-01-11T01:17:39 < fenugrec> bp on func, dump registers, view disasm of func
2023-01-11T01:18:03 < qyx> I mean, it is hardware triggered
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2023-01-11T01:18:17 < zyp> qyx, I'd suspect you've fucked up loading the function to memory, or corrupted it afterwards
2023-01-11T01:18:29 < zyp> try compare-sections
2023-01-11T01:18:48 < qyx> I found something that flash writing can cause hardfault on its own
2023-01-11T01:19:10 < qyx> it works eg. 200 blocks and then fails
2023-01-11T01:19:20 < qyx> but fails mostly randomly
2023-01-11T01:19:22 < zyp> interesting
2023-01-11T01:19:31 < qyx> I always send the same length blocks
2023-01-11T01:19:43 < zyp> well, switch to frame 2 and dissassemble
2023-01-11T01:19:44 < qyx> so it shouldn't be stack issues
2023-01-11T01:20:06 < qyx> where the LR points?
2023-01-11T01:20:15 < fenugrec> you should have the point in frame 2 where the HF was hit, no ?
2023-01-11T01:20:18 < zyp> type: frame 2
2023-01-11T01:20:21 < zyp> and then disassemble
2023-01-11T01:20:48 < fenugrec> (heh twice i've tried to click in your screenshot to type gdb commands : )
2023-01-11T01:21:32 < zyp> oh, wait
2023-01-11T01:21:40 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/yqbX0/Screenshot_2023-01-11_00-21-27.png
2023-01-11T01:21:43 < zyp> qyx, are you disabling interrupts while you're flashing?
2023-01-11T01:21:53 < qyx> oh :>
2023-01-11T01:22:03 < zyp> maybe you're randomly hitting systick or some shit
2023-01-11T01:22:13 < qyx> sounds reasonable
2023-01-11T01:22:22 < qyx> yeah all handlers are in the flash
2023-01-11T01:22:32 < zyp> vector table is also in flash
2023-01-11T01:22:47 < zyp> so it'd likely shit it self as soon as it tried loading the vector
2023-01-11T01:25:18 < qyx> looks like it solved the issue
2023-01-11T01:25:20 < qyx> good catch
2023-01-11T01:25:30 < qyx> so yes systick was the issue
2023-01-11T01:25:50 < zyp> makes sense
2023-01-11T01:26:27 < qyx> flashed 7 KB, blake2sum is the same
2023-01-11T01:26:32 < qyx> \o/
2023-01-11T01:28:27 < zyp> good, then I've solved a problem today too, now I can go to bed
2023-01-11T01:29:10 < qyx> :P
2023-01-11T01:29:35 < zyp> I stayed home with a fever today, so I haven't gotten my usual amount of problem solving :p
2023-01-11T01:31:02 < fenugrec> ok, my brain's almost toast - I have DMA feeding a TMR1 CCR value for PWM stuff. I can see the CCR1 value change as planned, so DMA is doing it's thing correctly. GPIO seems configured correctly but no output on pin.
2023-01-11T01:31:17 < zyp> kid's bringing every sort of disease home from kindergarden, I haven't been completely healthy for weeks
2023-01-11T01:31:40 < fenugrec> Checked GPIO regs : MODER, AFR, SPEEDR, OTYPER from debugger; all looks fine
2023-01-11T01:32:16 < zyp> is this TIM1?
2023-01-11T01:32:19 < fenugrec> yes
2023-01-11T01:32:24 < zyp> you haven't enabled MOE
2023-01-11T01:32:34 < zyp> (master output enable)
2023-01-11T01:33:08 < zyp> only the advanced timers have that, easy to forget if you're grabbing code that used to work on TIM2 or TIM3 or something
2023-01-11T01:34:22 < fenugrec> damn
2023-01-11T01:34:58 < zyp> caught me a couple of times
2023-01-11T01:35:02 < fenugrec> I skimmed over the Break/deadtime stuff in cube, missed that completely. Setting MOE=1 live doesn't quite work yet, probably missed something else
2023-01-11T01:39:42 < zyp> not sure if it's helpful, but here's how I set up TIM1 on a stm32g4: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/Aqm65
2023-01-11T01:41:18 < fenugrec> 3-channel PWM output ?
2023-01-11T01:41:24 < zyp> yeah, driving a BLDC
2023-01-11T01:41:46 < fenugrec> thanks, will look bit by bit. Looks similar at a glance, I saw value '6'  in CCMR1
2023-01-11T01:42:37 < qyx> zyp: same here, at least he is healthy now.. for a week or so
2023-01-11T01:43:55 < qyx> now I solved the slow response issue too
2023-01-11T01:43:57 < zyp> news are saying this winter is particularly bad, after two years with lockdowns
2023-01-11T01:44:20 < qyx> yes and optimal temperature
2023-01-11T01:44:25 < qyx> = higher than usual
2023-01-11T01:45:15 < zyp> before christmas I had something flu-like, but it also infected my eyes, so I figure it was likely adenovirus, or maybe both that and something else at the same time
2023-01-11T01:45:28 < zyp> and during christmas vacation we got norovirus
2023-01-11T01:45:38 < zyp> and now I've been caughing my lungs out
2023-01-11T01:45:45 < zyp> coughing
2023-01-11T01:46:48 < qyx> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/48gDT
2023-01-11T01:47:08 < zyp> nice
2023-01-11T01:47:54 < qyx> except it has 7916 B now
2023-01-11T01:49:07 < fenugrec> zyp, thanks - I was missing the obvious, CC1E, duh. The RM helped with "Table 63. Output control bits for complementary OCx and OCxN channels"
2023-01-11T01:51:02 < fenugrec> doing fancy pwms now
2023-01-11T01:57:26 < catphish_> wow F103 is still recommended for new designs
2023-01-11T01:57:59 < catphish_> and in stock
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2023-01-11T11:07:01 < qyx> booloader update https://paste.jvnv.net/view/hrTSn
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2023-01-11T16:15:29 < Laurence_b> any tarduino users here?
2023-01-11T16:15:42 < Laurence_b> millis() is returning zero in setup, is this normal?
2023-01-11T16:20:21 < Mangy_Dog> tarduino?
2023-01-11T16:20:33 < Mangy_Dog> or just not liking arduino
2023-01-11T16:21:26 < Mangy_Dog> millis should return the millis counted since program start
2023-01-11T16:22:27 < jpa-> arduino brings the arduity, Laurence_b brings the tard part
2023-01-11T16:27:46 < Laurence_b> very good
2023-01-11T16:28:29 < jpa-> but in general, there is no standard for what arduino functions do, you should refer to the source code of the particular library you are using
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2023-01-11T18:09:26 < fenugrec> so I'm hardfaulting on an innocuous "PUSH {R4-R7, LR}" op. Stack ptr is ok, LR is sane, wtf
2023-01-11T18:24:40 < zyp> how does the disassembly around it look?
2023-01-11T18:26:29 < zyp> I guess this is the first instruction in a function?
2023-01-11T18:29:20 < fenugrec> correct, it's "08002372   BL  HAL_RCC_OscConfig (0x8000560)", then "08000560 PUSH {R4-R7, LR}". I checked and BL is supposed to force the T-bit to 1, so it's not a non-thumb issue (I think)
2023-01-11T18:29:53 < zyp> correct, it'd be blx otherwise
2023-01-11T18:30:25 < zyp> what's the next function after?
2023-01-11T18:30:40 < zyp> instruction*
2023-01-11T18:30:45 < fenugrec> movs R4, R0. Doesn't make sense
2023-01-11T18:30:49 < zyp> what address?
2023-01-11T18:31:27 < zyp> i.e. how big is the push instruction?
2023-01-11T18:31:35 < fenugrec> 8000562
2023-01-11T18:31:45 < zyp> okay, that should be correct
2023-01-11T18:31:48 < zyp> what's sp?
2023-01-11T18:32:14 < fenugrec> SP= 20003f68
2023-01-11T18:32:21 < fenugrec> 4-aligned, I checked P)
2023-01-11T18:32:36 < zyp> 8-aligned even :)
2023-01-11T18:33:34 < zyp> okay, that looks all reasonable
2023-01-11T18:33:57 < fenugrec> I don't think it's a spurious interrupt, every NVIC reg is 0 at that point
2023-01-11T18:34:00 < jpa-> is this cortex-m0 or can you check SCB->CFSR?
2023-01-11T18:34:06 < zyp> it's a f072
2023-01-11T18:34:16 < jpa-> ah
2023-01-11T18:34:22 < zyp> otherwise I'd have suggested that first :)
2023-01-11T18:35:21 < zyp> what happens if you set a breakpoint on 8002372 and then step into it?
2023-01-11T18:35:36 < zyp> is this fully deterministic?
2023-01-11T18:35:56 < fenugrec> 100% deterministic, whether I have a BP on '2372 and '560, either, or none
2023-01-11T18:36:18 < jpa-> what happens right before that function call?
2023-01-11T18:36:23 < zyp> and if you step instructions, it always hardfaults on the push?
2023-01-11T18:37:06 < jpa-> (and have you checked stack pointer before the push, just to be it's not msp/psp mixup?)
2023-01-11T18:37:40 < fenugrec> yea single-stepping per isntruction hits HF trying to execute the push. jpa- , not sure re msp/psp, this is library code doing some RCC stuff
2023-01-11T18:38:16 < fenugrec> PSP=ffff fffc, I don't think it's ever set
2023-01-11T18:38:25 < jpa-> fenugrec: if you check SP value before executing the push and it is ok, then that's fine; when it gets to hardfault handler the stack pointer may switch to MSP which is different
2023-01-11T18:39:02 < zyp> PSP is only ever used if you've got a thread scheduler or some shit, and even then not always
2023-01-11T18:39:11 < fenugrec> R13=SP=MSP=sane value prior to the HF
2023-01-11T18:39:32 < zyp> unless you've put an RTOS in there, it's not that
2023-01-11T18:40:04 < jpa-> what is PSR value after it hardfaults?
2023-01-11T18:40:22 < zyp> something something 003 :)
2023-01-11T18:40:56 < jpa-> probably, but if it wasn't that would tell something :)
2023-01-11T18:40:58 < fenugrec> right, I don't think this is using any of that. It's a shitduino thing I'm trying to get to work for a demo, I basically stripped it down to a 'blink' example, and changing the pin # causes the HF.  PSR->ISR is indeed 3 == HF. So it's not just hitting a different vector that aliased to the HF one 
2023-01-11T18:41:14 < zyp> so anyway, where in the RCC sequence does this happen? kinda sounds like it's fucking up flash config and fails the instruction load after the jump
2023-01-11T18:43:13 < jpa-> you could also try "return 0" to force it to return after the jump and before executing the push, to see if crashes in a different place if you continue stepping
2023-01-11T18:43:15 < zyp> try running compare-sections when you get to the hardfault handler, see if the debugger manages to read flash correctly
2023-01-11T18:43:21 < fenugrec> so just before the call it's pushing a bunch of args on stack, inside a pretty typical-looking SystemClock_Config() : https://bpa.st/CF374
2023-01-11T18:43:59 < zyp> okay, so it haven't touched flash config yet
2023-01-11T18:44:13 < zyp> but try the compare-sections anyway
2023-01-11T18:45:08 < fenugrec> hold on, I can't find a gdb console in ozone
2023-01-11T18:45:22 < zyp> well, it's ozone, not gdb :)
2023-01-11T18:45:44 < zyp> ozone has a nice gui, but I never liked its cli
2023-01-11T18:46:11 < fenugrec> Target.ReadU32 (0x08000004); // returns 0x80023CD
2023-01-11T18:46:22 < zyp> fair enough
2023-01-11T18:46:25 < fenugrec> so I can still read individual flash words
2023-01-11T18:48:00 < zyp> what happens if you set a breakpoint on the BL and just skip it?
2023-01-11T18:48:18 < zyp> i.e. set pc to the instruction after before you continue
2023-01-11T18:54:15 < fenugrec> runs a few hand-picked instructions, fails in the next BL + PUSH sequence
2023-01-11T18:54:20 < fenugrec> w t f
2023-01-11T18:54:56 < zyp> can I have a copy of the elf?
2023-01-11T18:55:19 < fenugrec> sure thing. lemme paste
2023-01-11T18:55:59 < fenugrec> (there are a few successful BL+PUSH in the code leading to this spot , so I'm running out of ideas)
2023-01-11T18:56:19 < jpa-> you could also use that flash read function to check that the specific instructions involved are what they should be in flash
2023-01-11T18:56:38 < zyp> I wouldn't trust them 100%, jlink likes caching flash content
2023-01-11T18:57:02 < jpa-> full erase + reprogram might be worth a try?
2023-01-11T18:57:29 < zyp> was debugging an issue for a client a few weeks ago, jlink said it flashed fine and reading back the contents looked fine
2023-01-11T18:57:31 < fenugrec> jpa-, I've been toggling between working / non-working builds for an hour, reflash+verify always succeeds
2023-01-11T18:57:39 < zyp> until I disconnected and reconnected, then flash was empty again
2023-01-11T18:57:46 < fenugrec> hm
2023-01-11T18:58:03 < fenugrec> that wouldn't explain why I can skip some instructions, others seem OK
2023-01-11T18:58:42 < fenugrec> https://filebin.net/456fsv367myhsq22
2023-01-11T18:59:26 < fenugrec> crap, that's a different build - but it also hardfaults with the same kind of pattern, this time at 80002D0
2023-01-11T18:59:34 < fenugrec> on, you guessed it, a PUSH R4-R7,LR
2023-01-11T19:00:03 < zyp> r4,lr it says
2023-01-11T19:00:06 < zyp> but yeah
2023-01-11T19:00:46 < jpa-> fenugrec: are you able to access flash from the debugger ok? i.e. if you write and read values, do they stick?
2023-01-11T19:01:05 < fenugrec> jpa-,  never tried that per-word from a debugger. hold on
2023-01-11T19:01:25 < zyp> writing? sounds annoying :)
2023-01-11T19:01:59 < jpa-> err not flash
2023-01-11T19:02:03 < jpa-> i mean SRAM, stack :D
2023-01-11T19:02:30 < jpa-> because it feels like it might be bus faulting on the stack write
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2023-01-11T19:03:52 < fenugrec> ok, but configIPClock, that runs just before, happily writes a bunch of stuff on stack
2023-01-11T19:04:19 < fenugrec> and yes, just wrote a test u32 into flash, seems to have worked.
2023-01-11T19:04:31 < fenugrec> Target.ReadU32 (0x08000020); // returns 0x55AA9966
2023-01-11T19:04:51 < qyx> systick firing? did you disable interrupts? :>
2023-01-11T19:04:59 < qyx> sorry I am not being helpful
2023-01-11T19:05:25 < fenugrec> qyx, heh I had a thought for your yesterday's issue, but I don't think it's the same thing at all
2023-01-11T19:05:27 < jpa-> all vectors have a valid address associated to them, so shouldn't hardfault on unexpected irq
2023-01-11T19:08:56 < fenugrec> dumping sram near SP looks OK, I see params and return values pushed there
2023-01-11T19:10:11 < jpa-> does the faulting instruction manage to push anything?
2023-01-11T19:10:51 < zyp> also, does the hardfault handler manage to push anything?
2023-01-11T19:14:06 < fenugrec> HF seems to push stuff, yes
2023-01-11T19:14:18 < fenugrec> I need a break.
2023-01-11T19:29:55 < jpa-> https://github.com/modm-io/modm   hmm, yet another C++ HAL
2023-01-11T19:30:20 < qyx> I am reading the backlog briefly, did you mention wait states?
2023-01-11T19:30:32 < zyp> qyx, that's what I meant by flash config
2023-01-11T19:30:43 < zyp> jpa-, seen it before, doesn't look too unreasonable
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2023-01-11T20:42:26 < fenugrec> jpa-, seems like only the hardfault manages to write its stack frame ; the problematic Push doesn't happen
2023-01-11T20:56:26 < fenugrec> looks like mcu is allergic to address 8000560
2023-01-11T20:59:38 < fenugrec> there's literally 2 different bytes between good and bad builds. This is insane
2023-01-11T21:17:43 < fenugrec> what absolute garbage. I think the address where HF occured reported by ozone is unreliable
2023-01-11T21:20:54 < fenugrec> if I single-step from earlier, I'm getting a HF now when entering a division routine in HAL_initTick
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2023-01-11T21:44:37 < qyx> do you have a second device?
2023-01-11T21:47:38 < fenugrec> unfortunately not. Sometimes I can make a build that works, then change a pin #, it breaks, revert change, it works again. Really deterministic, just... completely batshit insane
2023-01-11T21:47:39 < braindamage> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003447223478.html wat
2023-01-11T21:48:28 < zyp> enjoy free truffle
2023-01-11T21:48:29 < fenugrec> I added an explicit HF handler : no more hardfaults. Related, or random ? Who knows !
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2023-01-11T22:33:02 < catphish_> is there an easy way to provide a TTL output (push pull probably) from a board that is fairly safe, i'm mostly thinking current limited, would one normally use a particular kind of buffer? or directly use an stm32 output, or something else?
2023-01-11T22:33:39 < fenugrec> elaborate on "current limited"
2023-01-11T22:33:47 < fenugrec> anything beyond just a series resistor ?
2023-01-11T22:37:40 < catphish_> hmm, perhaps that's enough, honestly i don't have exact requirements, i'm just wondering what might be advisable for providing a "robust" TTL output from a product, that will will connect to 3rd party devices
2023-01-11T22:38:00 < catphish_> the simplest option is definitely stm32 push-pull -> resistor -> conector
2023-01-11T22:38:34 < braindamage> add an optocoupler, that'll make it much more tolerant on junk on the output
2023-01-11T22:39:03 < fenugrec> for a 'product', you'll need to think about ESD, reverse polarity, shorts, ^ galvanic isolation if warranted and practical, etc
2023-01-11T22:41:52 < catphish_> fenugrec: indeed, no isolation needed fortunately, i guess i can't protect against everything but ESD and shorts seems wise on an output
2023-01-11T22:42:27 < qyx> for a 'product' I would not use TTL levels
2023-01-11T22:42:31 < qyx> unless ardweeno
2023-01-11T22:42:39 < qyx> what will you connect to it?
2023-01-11T22:44:53 < catphish_> i'm designing for someone else, i only know they want a >2v output to connect to some other equipment, hopefully i'll get some better specs at some point, but i assume it's TTL, in any case my question was more generic
2023-01-11T22:45:34 < catphish_> do things like arduino just expose the raw MCU pins? tbh that seems to work pretty well
2023-01-11T22:45:35 < qyx> I am usually using a 5V output buffer + series resistor + TVS
2023-01-11T22:46:14 < catphish_> without any further information my initial thought was a buffer (probably 3v3 logic), series resistor, and TVS
2023-01-11T22:46:16 < qyx> the buffer provides more current than the MCU is capable of and the resistor limits it a bit
2023-01-11T22:46:44 < catphish_> then again, with the right resistor, the buffer may be redundant
2023-01-11T22:47:07 < catphish_> for the thing i'm actulaly working on, i'm just kinda brainstorming until i get full specs
2023-01-11T22:47:40 < braindamage> yes, raw mcu, but atmega's rather big transistors compared to stm32
2023-01-11T22:48:44 < fenugrec> buffer is nice to protect against unusual violence, so you don't ruin the mcu just after zapping a pin. 
2023-01-11T22:49:43 < fenugrec> like this cheapass ICD2 clone I had that died because of an accidental short - mcu pins are directly connected to outside with no protection.
2023-01-11T22:55:07 < fenugrec> well, c++ blows, arduino blows, stm32duino blows, stm32cubeide blows
2023-01-11T22:55:10 < fenugrec> what am I even doing
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2023-01-11T22:58:44 < zyp> haha
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2023-01-11T23:01:11 < Laurence_b> interdasting
2023-01-11T23:01:35 < Laurence_b> we have loads of ethernet/vxlan kit in hyperloop test area, and tried to tie it into hyperoffice
2023-01-11T23:02:19 < Laurence_b> but udp broadcast packets are in wrong order most of the time
2023-01-11T23:04:11 < Laurence_b> looks like the switches and routers are reordering them
2023-01-11T23:04:35 < Laurence_b> hypernetwork guru has stuck a pi at each end then tunneled the traffic over via tcp, it works perfectly now
2023-01-11T23:06:29 < Laurence_b> vxlan is pretty cool - now with mdns we have individual ip addresses and names for each rs485 sensor node
2023-01-11T23:10:12 < qyx> just spent 15 minutes figuring out why handlers from the bootloader are called instead of from the app
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2023-01-11T23:10:55 < PaulFertser> Laurence_b: lol, why would anybody expect UDP to be ordered in the first place?
2023-01-11T23:11:57 < qyx> did you skip the first year of your uni?
2023-01-11T23:12:11 < qyx> it is in the basic networking course
2023-01-11T23:12:17 < Laurence_b> PaulFertser: on our previous lan setups its been ok
2023-01-11T23:12:28 < Laurence_b> we obviously exceeded the complexity for it to still work
2023-01-11T23:12:41 < PaulFertser> I know a joke about UDP. But you probably won't get it.
2023-01-11T23:12:48 < Laurence_b> old
2023-01-11T23:12:49 < qyx> lol'd
2023-01-11T23:13:13 < Laurence_b> all the packets still arrive, just some are delayed between the buildings
2023-01-11T23:13:41 < Laurence_b> network guru guy thinks he can make it work by tweaking the switches and routers
2023-01-11T23:14:27 < qyx> no, the correct solution is not to depend on any order with UDP
2023-01-11T23:14:31 < Laurence_b> mostly it works fine, and out of order is ok
2023-01-11T23:14:33 < zyp> redundant multipath?
2023-01-11T23:14:47 < Laurence_b> but now sometimes we see a packet delayed by tens of milliseconds which is too long
2023-01-11T23:14:55 < Laurence_b> doesnt happen with tcp link
2023-01-11T23:14:56 < zyp> kinda hard to get any deterministic order when there's more than one path
2023-01-11T23:17:35 < PaulFertser> "UDP packet reordering is usually not a problem – packet/frame reordering is a well-known challenge and all forwarding devices take care not to reorder packets within a layer-4 (TCP or UDP) session. The only way to introduce packet reordering is to configure per-packet load balancing somewhere in the path (hint: don’t do that)."
2023-01-11T23:17:40 < PaulFertser> https://blog.ipspace.net/2012/01/vxlan-runs-over-udp-does-it-matter.html
2023-01-11T23:20:16 < Laurence_b> interesting, thanks
2023-01-11T23:20:28 < Laurence_b> maybe network guy is right and something needs to be reconfigured
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2023-01-11T23:21:33 < Laurence_b> tfw the overweight node-red brogrammer guy wants to talk to all the sensor nodes without leaving his office
2023-01-11T23:23:49  * Laurence_b sent him a link to the incel orbit node-red failure
2023-01-11T23:31:35 < qyx> zyp: you caused I want to rewrite my bootloader to nice c++ with modules
2023-01-11T23:32:00 < qyx> but as I am reaching the MVP feature set soon, I am not doing it now
2023-01-11T23:32:04 < zyp> let me know if you find a usable build system :p
2023-01-11T23:32:14 < qyx> a single .sh
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--- Day changed to tammi 12 2023
2023-01-12T00:01:33 < catphish_> fenugrec: just use C, good headers, and a reference manual like a normal person (err, maybe i'm not normal, but i hate heavy wrappers)
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2023-01-12T00:08:38 < Laurence_b> serious business https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-64234568
2023-01-12T00:08:54 < Laurence_b> also >Andrew Tate >Intelligent
2023-01-12T00:22:52 < fenugrec> catphish_, you don't need to tell me, that's what I've been doing for years. This is an unusual project, and first (most likely also last) time I use arduino anything.
2023-01-12T00:24:53 < catphish_> fenugrec: actually of all the high level environments, i find arduino the most tolerable because while abstracted, it's insanely easy for basic stuff
2023-01-12T00:25:15 < catphish_> like, for a really simple project, i'm happy to not care *how* it works
2023-01-12T00:31:10 < fenugrec> yeah well
2023-01-12T00:31:41 < fenugrec> a) install bunch of crap, stm32duino, etc b) copy 5 lines of blink example c) change pin assignment d) inexplicable hardfault
2023-01-12T00:32:20 < Laurence_b> lol sounds tarduino tier
2023-01-12T00:33:04 < Laurence_b> https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/99BC/production/_128265393_rgsnewcastle5.jpg.webp the piramid!!one
2023-01-12T00:47:23 < fenugrec> lol. ozone doesn't realize target is in HF until I pause the target. What a complete waste of time
2023-01-12T00:54:48 < qyx> same in gdb yesteray
2023-01-12T00:55:07 < qyx> idk why
2023-01-12T00:55:45 < qyx> offtopic, so odroid-N2+ idle 1.37 W, idle + gig ethernet 1.51 W, idle + gige + hdmi 1.66 W
2023-01-12T00:55:53 < qyx> I am more than satisfied
2023-01-12T00:56:03 < qyx> suspend is 0.37 W but idk how to wake the thing up yet
2023-01-12T00:57:40 < qyx> so that's about half of odroid-M1 I am using as a small-server home-server (but it has a 512 GB NVMe, so that's understandable)
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2023-01-12T02:00:57 < Laurence_b> Wagner group have gone AWOL, they want the salt!
2023-01-12T02:01:04 < Laurence_b> THEY LOVE THEIR SALT!one
2023-01-12T02:01:27 < Laurence_b> t. bbc news
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2023-01-12T02:06:40 < braindamage> I'm starting to believe that laurenceb's bbc doesn't stand for british broadcast, but big black cocks or big beautiful cocks, or some variation thereof
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2023-01-12T05:46:28 < fenugrec> looks accurate https://i.imgur.com/LW3x2bh.jpeg
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2023-01-12T06:49:26 < jadew> lol
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2023-01-12T07:58:17 < jpa-> fenugrec: after the crash, check the FLASH->ACR register to confirm you have correct wait states for the frequency it is running at
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2023-01-12T11:19:08 < qyx> oh L0 has a weird ADC
2023-01-12T11:19:49 < Steffanx-> Define weird
2023-01-12T11:20:09 < qyx> there is not the standard regular sequence setting using SQR
2023-01-12T11:24:15 < qyx> there is only a scan direction register and then enable bits for each cannel
2023-01-12T11:24:16 < jpa-> yeah, instead a bitmap of enabled vs. disabled channels
2023-01-12T11:24:38 < jpa-> i guess easier for common case but cannot do funny stuff like 0, 1, 0, 2, 0, 3, 0, 4
2023-01-12T11:32:37 < karlp> wat, that's odd, I didn't notice that.
2023-01-12T11:33:00 < karlp> that's quite a functionality change.
2023-01-12T11:36:44 < qyx> yeah libopencm3 is totally off for L0
2023-01-12T11:37:26 < qyx> at least I got it working now
2023-01-12T11:44:50 < karlp> um, "off"? I'm just looking at it now, and I don't see any sequence support in l0 code at all right now?
2023-01-12T11:45:12 < karlp> so it's jsut missing, not wrong then right?
2023-01-12T11:47:54 < qyx> hm I messed with sampling time setting too, resolution
2023-01-12T11:48:13 < qyx> clock setting, so I basically just used the header
2023-01-12T11:48:32 < qyx> ok not totally, yeah, channel setting is missing
2023-01-12T11:48:33 < ventYl> nah, I really like how windows tries to perform updates "silently" while computer is sleeping and it always messes it up
2023-01-12T11:55:03 < qyx> I like it, now the ADC code is ~7 lines of register writes
2023-01-12T12:08:24 < karlp> yeah, vs 7 lines of function calls that are all single register writes.
2023-01-12T12:08:28 < karlp> locm3 why?! :)
2023-01-12T12:11:27 < qyx> trash all HALs now
2023-01-12T12:15:13 < karlp> still, laks is write once, and then you are opening the ref man if you ever wantto make a change.
2023-01-12T12:16:39 < qyx> I am not saying locm3 is bad
2023-01-12T12:16:51 < qyx> I am just starting to miss the point of all low level HALs
2023-01-12T12:17:31 < qyx> if the HAL is not abstracting properly using an unified API, you still have to ref a refman
2023-01-12T12:20:44 < qyx> what's wrong with this? https://paste.jvnv.net/view/jFYet
2023-01-12T12:21:01 < ventYl> this will probably be abstraction vs. performance talk
2023-01-12T12:21:18 < qyx> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/TuQOI
2023-01-12T12:21:18 < ventYl> abstract too much and you will lose shitload of performance digging through abstraction layers
2023-01-12T12:21:31 < ventYl> abstract too little and your abstraction will essentially be worthless
2023-01-12T12:21:47 < ventYl> area in between is almost non-existent
2023-01-12T12:22:21 < qyx> yes and that's my point, if you really need the performance, go low level and pack your low level awesome code in a module with high abstract interface
2023-01-12T12:22:33 < qyx> so you get both
2023-01-12T12:23:12 < ventYl> *cough* *cough* that's what cube does with LL + HAL *cough* *cough*
2023-01-12T12:23:20 < ventYl> mostly...
2023-01-12T12:24:19 < qyx> oh yeah sizeof() that array is 32 of course, not 16
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2023-01-12T14:46:13 < Laurence_b> ok wtf teensy
2023-01-12T14:46:21 < Laurence_b> asm volatile ("wfi");
2023-01-12T14:46:27 < Laurence_b> causes hardfault at startup
2023-01-12T14:48:29 < Laurence_b> ooh I know - interval timer is stopped, breaking library code inside interrupts
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2023-01-12T18:26:12 < Laurence_b> god I hate arduino
2023-01-12T18:26:32 < Laurence_b> >have to add "delay(20)" or it hardfaults at start of setup
2023-01-12T18:28:23 < specing> lool
2023-01-12T18:28:43 < Laurence_b> asm volatile("wfi") is where the hardfault happens but I think some ISR is triggered that relies on millis() updating correctly
2023-01-12T18:29:03 < Laurence_b> apparently on arm wfi breaks tarduino millis
2023-01-12T18:30:04 < Laurence_b> http://pastie.org/p/0a7vFZ1TTSY9wtIGTpeBCe
2023-01-12T18:30:12 < specing> why are you even using arduino
2023-01-12T18:30:24 < Laurence_b> wurk
2023-01-12T18:30:34 < Laurence_b> I tried to haxor on line16 but it doesnt help much
2023-01-12T18:31:26 < Laurence_b> without line 182 it hardfaults at line 185
2023-01-12T18:33:18 < catphish> asm volatile("wfi") != arduino
2023-01-12T18:34:08 < catphish> you can't really take a high level abstracted environment and start injecting assembly code that changes core chip functionality underneath it
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2023-01-12T18:35:00 < Laurence_b> its not really high level
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2023-01-12T18:41:14 < karlp> hrm, jinja templating a tree of files into a new tree, most of the code is in the output path mangling.
2023-01-12T18:47:31 < Laurence_b> I wonder where millis() is defined...
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2023-01-12T18:53:09 < josuah> Laurence_b: what about implementing what you need as a C library, and use that C library in arduino? Not sure it works.
2023-01-12T18:53:26 < Laurence_b> yeah i need MTP
2023-01-12T18:53:30 < Laurence_b> and LittleFS
2023-01-12T18:53:35 < Laurence_b> a tricky one
2023-01-12T18:53:45 < josuah> well, unless the problem resides in compatibility with arduino libs and core :S
2023-01-12T18:54:29 < josuah> would they accept something like this: https://github.com/Serasidis/arduino_opencm3
2023-01-12T18:55:04 < karlp> josuah: best not to bother too hard on trying to help lolrence....
2023-01-12T18:55:20 < karlp> he wont really pay much attention to anyone's rational suggestions anyway.
2023-01-12T18:55:39 < josuah> not sure it would work, but maybe it would help "them" figure out they are throwing their money away by putting wrong tools down the throat of their engineers
2023-01-12T18:56:16 < josuah> karlp: all right, I will release Laurence_b's free will from any attempt at any corruption from my twisted soul :)
2023-01-12T19:13:57 < Steffanx-> Compared to his soul, yours is quite sane.
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2023-01-12T19:49:19 < karlp> "esp32 development board" with .. not an esp32... https://www.elecrow.com/ai-wb2-32s-kit-2-4g-wifi-ble-module-esp32-development-board-with-bl602-compatible-with-esp32-s.html?erica
2023-01-12T19:55:53 < fenugrec> build proto : works. Add missing decoupling cap : doesn't work anymore. Nice
2023-01-12T19:56:13 < fenugrec> fast gates like 74LVC1Gxx love to ring
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2023-01-12T20:08:44 < josuah> karlp: just like STM32 clones? this is kind of wild!
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2023-01-12T20:22:10 < fenugrec> in the modern language "esp32" now means "generic cheap devboard with some programmable wifi crap on it"
2023-01-12T20:22:23 < fenugrec> just as "arduino" means "microcontroller", "cloud" means internet, etc
2023-01-12T20:23:00 < BrainDamage> wait until you hear about "serverless"
2023-01-12T20:23:09 < fenugrec> hehe
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2023-01-12T21:50:47 < zyp> karlp, haha, nice, we've gotten to the point where we've got chinese knockoffs of chinese products even
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2023-01-12T21:55:01 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FFl4i5TyaYAA2vgE.jpg
2023-01-12T21:55:29 < Laurence_b> keeek found Wagner on nitter
2023-01-12T21:55:31 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.net/TheFarmgineer/status/1612206135829733376#m
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2023-01-12T22:01:11 < josuah> > tweet not found
2023-01-12T22:01:13 < josuah> that was fast
2023-01-12T22:02:03 < josuah> hm, looks like it works with https://twitter.censors.us/TheFarmgineer/status/1612206135829733376
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2023-01-12T22:08:59 < josuah> it looks like, rather than packing a lot of special purposes cores, STM32 bring a LOT of I/O modules and timers as opposed to other chips
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2023-01-12T22:14:38 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FFlz2fWuXEAopnCU.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
2023-01-12T22:17:27 < josuah> for instance touch controllers, DACs, SDIO, LCD drivers, analog comparators... or the plethora of signal processing like video/images ones of ESP32 and whatnot
2023-01-12T22:18:28 < josuah> this makes me wonder: do you usually lookup for a microcontroller for as many things that you'd need onboard as possible to reduce the part count, or do you have other reason to split the design and keep various things separate?
2023-01-12T22:21:47 < josuah> one particular exapmle is CAN controllers: do you go for a STM32 that support it or a separate SPI chip like https://www.microchip.com/en-us/product/MCP251863#document-table
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2023-01-12T22:24:33 < Laurence_b> lollll my friend got b& from twitter for trolling musk over his "daughter"
2023-01-12T22:24:40 < qyx> josuah: always on-MCU CAN
2023-01-12T22:24:41 < Laurence_b> epin lulz
2023-01-12T22:33:18 < zyp> josuah, if you need four UARTs, do you pick a microcontroller with four UARTs, or do you use something like https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PI7C9X760.pdf ?
2023-01-12T22:36:58 < zyp> in general I'd say it's desirable to need as few external parts as possible, stepping up to a more capable MCU is often cheaper than adding external functionality, and it reduces board complexity as well
2023-01-12T22:37:31 < qyx> software is much easier and more performant too
2023-01-12T22:37:54 < zyp> yeah, external interfaces add latency and is potentially a throughput bottleneck too
2023-01-12T22:38:01 < qyx> unless the actual external bridge/interface is capable enough to do some buffering or so
2023-01-12T22:38:23 < qyx> offtopic, micro-optimalisations https://paste.jvnv.net/view/RZlYX
2023-01-12T22:39:11 < zyp> at some point you might get to a point where you don't get a microcontroller that has everything you need though
2023-01-12T22:40:08 < zyp> IME those projects might end up spanning multiple microcontrollers
2023-01-12T22:40:38 < zyp> e.g. one radio microcontroller and one general microcontroller with more of the other stuff
2023-01-12T22:41:41 < zyp> or three radio microcontrollers even, I've seen stuff that got a nrf91 for LTE, a nrf52 for BLE and an esp32 for wifi :)
2023-01-12T22:41:42 < josuah> qyx, zyp: thanks for your answers!
2023-01-12T22:41:55 < josuah> <zyp> josuah, if you need four UARTs
2023-01-12T22:42:38 < josuah> UARTs are serializer/deserializer, they definitely are belonging to the MCU in my impression
2023-01-12T22:42:57 < zyp> what's the difference between a UART and a CAN controller in that regard?
2023-01-12T22:43:05 < zyp> or an ethernet MAC for that matter
2023-01-12T22:43:07 < josuah> <zyp> stepping up to a more capable MCU is often cheaper than adding external functionality
2023-01-12T22:43:16 < zyp> where do you draw the border? :)
2023-01-12T22:43:28 < josuah> I was just figuring this out
2023-01-12T22:43:45 < zyp> counterpoint: i2c IO expanders are still common
2023-01-12T22:43:54 < josuah> <zyp> external interfaces add latency
2023-01-12T22:44:12 < josuah> good point: an internal MCU bus with DMA might be much better than external SPI for everything
2023-01-12T22:45:02 < josuah> <zyp> I've seen stuff that got a nrf91 for LTE, a nrf52 for BLE and an esp32 for wifi :)
2023-01-12T22:45:23 < josuah> surprising to see that not everything could fit the nrf91, but maybe throughput did not work out well that way
2023-01-12T22:45:30 < josuah> <zyp> difference between a UART and a CAN controller in that regard?
2023-01-12T22:46:08 < josuah> that was the core of my question... and I am getting an answer now, thank you zyp, qyx
2023-01-12T22:46:23 < josuah> > i2c IO expanders
2023-01-12T22:46:39 < josuah> which are even still more expensive than MCU with I2C in most of my experience ^_^'
2023-01-12T22:46:59 < josuah> <zyp> where do you draw the border?
2023-01-12T22:46:59 < zyp> indeed, I recently made a board with a stm32g0 instead of an IO expander
2023-01-12T22:47:20 < qyx> chip shortage!
2023-01-12T22:47:23 < qyx> you g0 misuser
2023-01-12T22:47:46 < qyx> this should be forbidden by law
2023-01-12T22:48:14 < josuah> I started to think that STM32 did draw that border by mostly including software, I/O, and serdes to its MCU, leaving all the very application specific peripherals for other purposes
2023-01-12T22:48:41 < zyp> what application specific peripherals?
2023-01-12T22:49:41 < josuah> for instance: all the radio chips like cc1101, rfm69
2023-01-12T22:49:45 < zyp> IMO it doesn't really matter if we're talking IO or touch controllers or opamps or RTCs or whatever
2023-01-12T22:49:46 < josuah> or the sensors
2023-01-12T22:50:01 < zyp> stm32w* have radios
2023-01-12T22:50:05 < josuah> does not really matter as in die usage?
2023-01-12T22:50:15 < zyp> sure does
2023-01-12T22:50:35 < zyp> but if you need it anyway, why not buy a die with it all on?
2023-01-12T22:50:52 < josuah> zyp: yes but specific to some protocol? It is hard to do bluetooth or WiFi or USB without an MCU to drive it
2023-01-12T22:51:18 < zyp> stm32wb is dualcore with cpu2 dedicated to driving a radio stack
2023-01-12T22:51:19 < josuah> zyp: they are not sub-GHz "proprietary protocol" radios in the ISM bands?
2023-01-12T22:51:34 < zyp> hmm, I think maybe wl is sub-GHz?
2023-01-12T22:52:04 < josuah> https://www.st.com/en/microcontrollers-microprocessors/stm32wl-series.html
2023-01-12T22:52:10 < zyp> ah, stm32wl is just a sx126c packed along with a stm32l4
2023-01-12T22:52:17  * josuah stops driving, turns back to the chip warehouse
2023-01-12T22:52:18 < zyp> still, saves board area
2023-01-12T22:52:31 < josuah> I'll take one zillion please :D
2023-01-12T22:53:24 < josuah> <qyx> you g0 misuser
2023-01-12T22:53:38 < josuah> is it fine if the g0 does more than just I2C I/O expansion?
2023-01-12T22:53:51 < zyp> it's also fine if it doesn't :)
2023-01-12T22:53:54 < josuah> for instance, software debouncing, extra ADC, etc...
2023-01-12T22:54:34 < josuah> zyp: I'd be really tempted to check if there is some way to make more use of it
2023-01-12T22:54:44 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/fohlG.jpg <- I'm using it simply to provide select signals to the muxes
2023-01-12T22:54:46 < josuah> zyp: like adding a status register to avoid polling everything if no change
2023-01-12T22:54:57 < zyp> it's output only, no need to poll
2023-01-12T22:55:06 < qyx> gpio expanders have IRQ outputs for that purpose
2023-01-12T22:55:52 < josuah> qyx: but then you could drop more if your chip is aware of the thing you'd try to do
2023-01-12T22:56:26 < josuah> not sure it'd matter for applicatoins like what zyp shew though
2023-01-12T22:56:39 < qyx> also, keep in mind this adds one more hassle to your dev/ci/cd/update process
2023-01-12T22:56:43 < josuah> qyx: is it as much sinful to use tiny chinese parts for this? is it about shortages?
2023-01-12T22:57:00 < josuah> qyx: are the shortages not getting to an end either?
2023-01-12T22:57:26 < qyx> sorry I forgot to prepend a proper joke marker
2023-01-12T22:57:34 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/pmULQ.jpg
2023-01-12T22:57:35 < qyx> it is ok
2023-01-12T22:57:37 < josuah> so did I :]
2023-01-12T22:57:53 < zyp> my desk is a bit messy
2023-01-12T22:57:54 < josuah> except for "are the shortages not getting to an end either?"
2023-01-12T22:58:13 < zyp> doesn't help that I've got multiple ongoing projects in parallel
2023-01-12T22:58:23 < josuah> good point, more hassle. Generic firmware can help though, and the extra hassle can turn into much less hassle in the main MCU
2023-01-12T22:59:04 < qyx> same here, much table entropy
2023-01-12T22:59:14 < qyx> I am doing like 10 things at the same time now
2023-01-12T22:59:48 < josuah> "much table entropy" I like that way to say it
2023-01-12T22:59:57 < josuah> it makes me feel a bit better about my desk
2023-01-12T23:00:24 < zyp> so far the mux tower has let me conclude that they've got way too high resistance that I can run vtref across them
2023-01-12T23:00:45 < josuah> zyp: preparing a debug rig with that?
2023-01-12T23:00:47 < zyp> so I'm gonna need reverse-blocking power switches or something instead
2023-01-12T23:01:06 < qyx> wat? arent those muxes like 2 ohm or so?
2023-01-12T23:01:20 < zyp> no, I think the slow ones are
2023-01-12T23:01:28 < zyp> these are TMUX1308
2023-01-12T23:01:43 < zyp> «slow ones» being 1108 or something
2023-01-12T23:01:48 < qyx> yeah
2023-01-12T23:01:50 < qyx> the ones I use
2023-01-12T23:01:55 < zyp> so yeah, maybe I can just use 1108 for vtref
2023-01-12T23:02:49 < zyp> but first I need to check whether I can run parallel trace across them
2023-01-12T23:02:53 < zyp> fast enough
2023-01-12T23:03:55 < qyx> nah I need to start my 1 kV reed relay testing matrix
2023-01-12T23:04:21 < qyx> I am not gonna measure another batch of cables by hand
2023-01-12T23:04:56 < zyp> josuah, so anyway, if this works sufficiently well, I'm gonna build a setup to put 128 different microcontrollers in a box and let me switch between them
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2023-01-12T23:05:46 < zyp> each on a module, eight modules on a carrier card, sixteen carrier cards into a backplane
2023-01-12T23:05:52 < josuah> that is a whole lot of little chips to debug from a single cmputer!
2023-01-12T23:06:05 < zyp> that's the point
2023-01-12T23:06:20 < josuah> how many in parallel? is it aimed at switching or batch programming?
2023-01-12T23:06:30 < zyp> switching
2023-01-12T23:06:33 < josuah> 128 different, I assume switching
2023-01-12T23:06:35 < josuah> ah namely
2023-01-12T23:06:46 < josuah> do you have a project for which you want to batch test on hardware?
2023-01-12T23:06:56 < zyp> orbtrace :)
2023-01-12T23:07:20 < josuah> ooh right! did not know you were involved at its core
2023-01-12T23:09:06 < zyp> the hardest part of doing a debugger are the hardware quirks of different targets, being able to efficiently test many would help a lot
2023-01-12T23:09:58 < josuah> (side note) STM32WL are aiming LoRaWan, which is a nice protocol, but I cannot help but try to seek open alternative to proprietary protocols...
2023-01-12T23:10:24 < zyp> isn't that just the software stack?
2023-01-12T23:10:41 < zyp> can't you run arbitrary sub-ghz on it?
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2023-01-12T23:11:46 < josuah> I assume so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-power_wide-area_network for instance
2023-01-12T23:12:04 < josuah> the chip also support sigfox so I assume they are rather generic
2023-01-12T23:13:46 < josuah> zyp: hoping that there are no analog quirks for these various chips that would prevent you from using them all the same way on the same rig.
2023-01-12T23:14:04 < qyx> WL is a generic sub-gig radio
2023-01-12T23:14:17 < qyx> you can use any protocol you like
2023-01-12T23:15:24 < zyp> when they're isolated by muxes and power switches, and only one chip will ever be powered at a time, I don't see what sort of quirks that could be
2023-01-12T23:15:59 < qyx> do you connect those tmux muxes all in parallel?
2023-01-12T23:16:21 < qyx> or in a multilayered tree?
2023-01-12T23:16:30 < qyx> iirc you mentioned something like 8:16 or so
2023-01-12T23:16:36 < zyp> yeah
2023-01-12T23:16:41 < qyx> they have prety high leakage
2023-01-12T23:16:51 < qyx> in disconnected state
2023-01-12T23:17:42 < zyp> in this test stack, I've hooked them in series to check how running the signal through multiple would degrade it
2023-01-12T23:18:29 < zyp> in the actual test rack, I'm planning to have one on the carrier and two back to back on the backplane, enabling only one at a time
2023-01-12T23:18:54 < Laurence_b> the absolute state of teensy
2023-01-12T23:19:03 < Laurence_b> impossible to debug without jtag
2023-01-12T23:19:20 < zyp> in other words, the test rack would only have two or three layers
2023-01-12T23:19:36 < zyp> third layer would be to mux multiple debug probes
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2023-01-12T23:21:35 < josuah> Laurence_b: are them not ARM boards though?
2023-01-12T23:21:56 < josuah> I do not know them
2023-01-12T23:22:09 < Laurence_b> yeah, but arduinoified
2023-01-12T23:22:29 < Laurence_b> all I know if that "red and blue LEDs light up"
2023-01-12T23:22:37 < Laurence_b> this is not how you debug
2023-01-12T23:23:04 < karlp> qyx: that memcmp seems like it shouild be "easily" fixed? I would have expected that to be equivalent?
2023-01-12T23:23:15 < Laurence_b> I think its getting errors from the PMU
2023-01-12T23:23:30 < Laurence_b> Teensy4 power supply design is super dodgy
2023-01-12T23:23:57 < zyp> karlp, oh, I forgot to go down that rabbit hole
2023-01-12T23:23:58 < qyx> karlp: yeah it would be much more but memcmp is also used in the tinycbor library in exactly one other place
2023-01-12T23:24:04 < karlp> josuah: what irc client are you using? is it doing this quoting for you or something? it's .... different :)
2023-01-12T23:25:24 < qyx> I saved another 200 bytes or so by not using adc_power_on() :D
2023-01-12T23:26:11 < josuah> karlp: no it is me adding it to add some context. thanks for letting me know that it is a bit weird
2023-01-12T23:26:26 < josuah> irssi by the way
2023-01-12T23:26:46 < zyp> qyx, is IMG_BASE_ADDRESS a defined constant or what?
2023-01-12T23:27:01 < josuah> that's one thing to do when replying 1 day old message, not 1 minute old ones
2023-01-12T23:27:20 < zyp> karlp, repeating the line you're replying to isn't all that uncommon
2023-01-12T23:27:24 < qyx> zyp: yeah
2023-01-12T23:27:40 < zyp> qyx, so why doesn't it all just constant fold?
2023-01-12T23:28:26 < qyx> it is not known at compile time
2023-01-12T23:28:51 < karlp> zyp: no, it was more the fully nick quoted and precise, I'm not used to seeing it done that perfectly :)
2023-01-12T23:28:51 < qyx> bootloader checks if the application header is there
2023-01-12T23:31:23 < josuah> weechat shows this format when pressing Alt + L for copy-pasta purposes, irssi also by default, mind for a space before the nick (room for '@' or '&')
2023-01-12T23:32:00 < zyp> qyx, ah, it's a magic constant loaded from IMG_BASE_ADDRESS, I'm dumb
2023-01-12T23:34:01 < zyp> wat
2023-01-12T23:34:08 < karlp> zyp: whiel you're around and awake, was there anything you wanted me to do or test or anything wrt to WCH shits in laks?  I'm looking at some new stuff, but wondering where my base is, am I on the right track with it, or do you want different things, or what?
2023-01-12T23:34:42 < zyp> hmm, let me check the git graph
2023-01-12T23:35:00 < karlp> (i've not looked in a little while either, just putting all the pieces together again)
2023-01-12T23:36:34 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/rrqOG.png
2023-01-12T23:36:41 < qyx> considering compressing the bootloader
2023-01-12T23:37:20 < zyp> so I've done some g4 stuff, some async stuff, and then initial orbtrace support that's still unmerged
2023-01-12T23:37:35 < karlp> cool, you took my "untested" patch :)
2023-01-12T23:37:43 < zyp> and I've taken all your stuff except the risc-v stuff
2023-01-12T23:38:02 < karlp> you want me to rebase on orbtrace or dev_v2?
2023-01-12T23:38:09 < zyp> I kinda wanna test the wch stuff myself before I merge it
2023-01-12T23:38:16 < karlp> ok, no problems then.
2023-01-12T23:38:45 < zyp> dev_v2 should be fine, I don't expect any major conflicts
2023-01-12T23:38:55 < karlp> which wch boards have you got? the ch32v307 board, and that usb3 one? 
2023-01-12T23:39:06 < zyp> and the BLE one
2023-01-12T23:39:22 < karlp> ch32v208, or ch58x? 
2023-01-12T23:39:30 < zyp> ch58x IIRC
2023-01-12T23:39:41 < karlp> (there's also ch57x which I believe is the same BLE radio, but with a cortex-m3 instead of the riscv core)
2023-01-12T23:39:45 < zyp> I mean, I got it because it was what you had
2023-01-12T23:39:52 < karlp> right.
2023-01-12T23:39:57 < zyp> unless I fucked up and got the wrong one
2023-01-12T23:44:13 < zyp> what new stuff are you looking at?
2023-01-12T23:44:22 < zyp> more wch, or something else?
2023-01-12T23:46:26 < zyp> if you're doing something else, it might be easier to start a new branch from dev_v2, if it has no need for the wch changes
2023-01-12T23:51:55 < karlp> no, it would be wch stuff now at least.
2023-01-12T23:52:22 < zyp> fair enough
2023-01-12T23:52:24 < karlp> I've been telling myself I don't need new parts,
2023-01-12T23:52:37 < karlp> it's ok, will just keep trucking on, will rebase on dev_v2 at some point
2023-01-12T23:52:40 < zyp> I might add some esp32-c3 support soon
2023-01-12T23:52:52 < karlp> the test apps are still kindy messy on my end anyway :)
--- Day changed pe tammi 13 2023
2023-01-13T00:11:28 -!- Laurence_b [~Laurence_@101.177.208.46.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: Client closed]
2023-01-13T00:44:20 < qyx> c++ still lacks designated initialisers?
2023-01-13T00:45:29 < qyx> oh it finally has after 20 years
2023-01-13T00:47:05 < karlp> they finally got it?!
2023-01-13T00:47:12  * karlp rolls out the party
2023-01-13T00:47:20 < karlp> what, c++27 or something?
2023-01-13T00:47:23 < zyp> 20
2023-01-13T00:47:27 < karlp> fucking a
2023-01-13T00:47:33 < zyp> but it's more restricted than C
2023-01-13T00:47:36 < karlp> did someone die or something?
2023-01-13T00:47:49 < karlp> I mean, that was the biggest "c++, wtf?!" ever
2023-01-13T00:48:55 < karlp> any meaningful restrictions? or just "you can't do 50hundred nested self referential meta templated designated initializers" ?
2023-01-13T00:49:08 < zyp> they need to be in order
2023-01-13T00:49:17 < karlp> that's ... workable.
2023-01-13T00:49:31 < karlp> a fuck ton better than just "lol, c++ usabilty harhar"
2023-01-13T00:49:51 < zyp> and yeah, IIRC I used them in the protonium examples I wrote last year
2023-01-13T00:50:29 < zyp> might rework the USB descriptor stuff to support them too
2023-01-13T00:51:34 < zyp> USB descriptors are due for a big overhaul in any case
2023-01-13T00:53:55 < qyx> ordered what?
2023-01-13T00:54:08 < qyx> are they joking?
2023-01-13T00:54:27 < zyp> no, it has to do with construction order
2023-01-13T00:55:34 < zyp> constructors for object members are called in declaration order, so they decided you're not allowed to specify them in a different order than they'll actually execute in
2023-01-13T00:57:11 < qyx> I am still not sure if switching to c++ has any benefit
2023-01-13T00:59:40 < karlp> man wch example code has busted and valid encodings in the same file.
2023-01-13T00:59:47 < karlp> like... well fucking done dipshits
2023-01-13T00:59:55 < zyp> https://godbolt.org/z/3hsGP3WqM <- shit like this, the standard prevents you from constructing BarClass first
2023-01-13T01:00:33 < karlp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/lodMV.png
2023-01-13T01:01:07 < zyp> I edited some files at work that had a broken encoding
2023-01-13T01:01:34 < zyp> which my editor coerced into some valid utf-8, so I had to discard that before committing
2023-01-13T01:01:44 < karlp> yeah, i figured out the codepage shit to fix a bunch of wch stuff in the past, but wrong in the same file is... man, could you not?
2023-01-13T01:01:49 < qyx> is there apractical difference between struct and class?
2023-01-13T01:02:06 < karlp> struct -> members public by default, class -> private by default?
2023-01-13T01:02:09 < zyp> struct is public by default, class is private by default
2023-01-13T01:02:09 < karlp> that's about it right?
2023-01-13T01:02:12 < zyp> otherwise none
2023-01-13T01:02:23 < qyx> oh
2023-01-13T01:02:26 < karlp> what he said ;)
2023-01-13T01:02:45 < qyx> my last encounter of c++ was in 2009
2023-01-13T01:02:45 < zyp> so I use struct when I'm lazy and class when I actually care about encapsulation
2023-01-13T01:12:39 < karlp> fucking accepting contributions from people is the worst....
2023-01-13T01:12:51 < karlp> everytime I look at some code I find more errors in it.
2023-01-13T01:14:21 < karlp> ffs, I sat down to do some wch experiments, not fixing fucking f3/f0 locm3 shit
2023-01-13T01:15:28 < karlp> https://github.com/libopencm3/libopencm3/blob/master/lib/stm32/f3/rcc.c#L500-L508 thta's a two bit field, with all four options defined....
2023-01-13T01:16:01 < karlp> I'm of a mind to throw out every single line that came frrom this author, but it's too late now :|
2023-01-13T01:17:52 < zyp> haha
2023-01-13T01:18:43 < karlp> this is why I love laks, I don't have to look after it, I just spam patches occasionally ;)
2023-01-13T01:19:34 < zyp> it's certainly easier when every actual user are capable of fixing issues themselves :)
2023-01-13T01:21:00 < karlp> rageface.gif or something
2023-01-13T01:21:33 < karlp> holy shit. I've been closing issues that people file thart are jsut "feature x doesn't exist" and I got yelled at that today, "lol, the issue isn't fixed?! how can you close it!!"
2023-01-13T01:22:16 < karlp> the guy had _implemented_ the feature, linked to their own code, but ... not filed as a PR, and "can't you just test my code yourself?!" 
2023-01-13T01:22:23 < karlp> this is why there's no nice things.
2023-01-13T01:22:35 < karlp> and why your grumpy local maintainter doesn't like maintaining things.
2023-01-13T01:26:54 < zyp> karlp, so what do you think about this? https://github.com/sigrokproject/libsigrokdecode/pull/33
2023-01-13T01:27:28 < zyp> I think it's a bit the opposite issue, because I still haven't been assed to jump through those hoops for a +4-0 PR
2023-01-13T01:27:48 < machinehum> Got my dimmer working
2023-01-13T01:27:49 < karlp> same thing, you have a mechanism for providing sample files, 
2023-01-13T01:28:15 < karlp> I hate that it's another repo, but yeah, you should provide the file to that repo too, 
2023-01-13T01:28:42 < karlp> they like the tests, but have never complained about them before, but .sr files of odd behaviour that caused bugs are highly desired.
2023-01-13T01:29:00 < karlp> but good luck with sigrok :|
2023-01-13T01:29:36 < karlp> that probably also fell into the "I've replied, my part is done for now"
2023-01-13T01:29:48 < karlp> were you waiting for uwe to follow up with you?
2023-01-13T01:30:13 < zyp> nope, I'm waiting until I care enough to bother doing something about it
2023-01-13T01:30:24 < karlp> everyone always thinks, "I'm special, my code is completely self evident"
2023-01-13T01:30:47 < karlp> (it's more fun when you see the same code submitted by the "right" person later and it's insta-merged)
2023-01-13T01:30:56 < zyp> haha
2023-01-13T01:31:06 < karlp> (that's been me in linux and openwrt....)
2023-01-13T01:31:41 < karlp> I submitted fixes to ch34x drivers in fucking 3.17 era, got told off for magicnumbers in existing code.
2023-01-13T01:32:02 < zyp> for me it's mostly that I don't really care whether the fix gets merged or not, it's a weird corner case and I'm likely never running into it again, so I'm not very inclined to spend more time on it
2023-01-13T01:32:03 < karlp> a "known" kernel dev later did the same thing, for 4.many and went straight in.
2023-01-13T01:32:09 < karlp> yeah, I get it.
2023-01-13T01:32:15 < karlp> meh. people hey.
2023-01-13T01:32:18 < karlp> who'd work with them
2023-01-13T01:32:29  * karlp points at BMP, openocd, pyocd, probers....
2023-01-13T01:32:47  * karlp peers suspiciously at zyp writing gdbserfver stubs
2023-01-13T01:33:03 < zyp> :)
2023-01-13T01:33:34 < josuah> <karlp> everyone always thinks, "I'm special, my code is completely self evident"
2023-01-13T01:33:38  * josuah whistles innocently
2023-01-13T01:34:37 < zyp> I don't really intend for the python gdbserver thing I'm working on to see much third party use
2023-01-13T01:35:03  * josuah goes to the garage and makes sure to add meaningful comments this time.
2023-01-13T01:35:18 < zyp> but I might write a C++ gdbserver for orbtrace using what I learn from it
2023-01-13T01:35:39 < zyp> or otherwise use it to contribute to BMP and stuff
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2023-01-13T01:54:17 < karlp> goddamn, this fucking patch is fucking so busted
2023-01-13T01:54:21 < karlp> way to win trust cunts.
2023-01-13T01:54:53 < karlp> this is what I get for my "users must have some sanity to get as far as commmitting things, they must be seerious right?!"
2023-01-13T01:58:02 < karlp> holæyshit, trying to unwide this stack of commits, and I'm just uncovering more missing g0 shits.
2023-01-13T02:00:47 -!- martinmoene [~Thunderbi@2a02-a45a-96ba-1-3c4b-ec98-4199-8d6a.fixed6.kpn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
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2023-01-13T02:18:52 < karlp> wtf, no-one told me about C0 parts? last new ones I remembered wsa u5?
2023-01-13T02:20:30 < karlp> offers "continuity with stm32g0"
2023-01-13T02:20:42 < karlp> wtf, g0 shorted lived stm32 ever or something?
2023-01-13T02:22:30 < karlp> lol, explicitly intended to be compatible with atmega328p: https://www.st.com/content/st_com/en/products/evaluation-tools/product-evaluation-tools/mcu-mpu-eval-tools/stm32-mcu-mpu-eval-tools/stm32-discovery-kits/stm32c0316-dk.html
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2023-01-13T02:32:45 < josuah> karlp: I love them! I did not know either...
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2023-01-13T02:36:36 < karlp> only the devkit is intended to be compatible, strangest goal ever.
2023-01-13T02:36:42 < karlp> must hve englishman at the helm or something.
2023-01-13T02:41:35 -!- MGF_Fabio [~MGF_Fabio@host-79-56-41-211.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
2023-01-13T02:44:25 < josuah> karlp: maybe to specifically attack the arduino nano? hmm non the pinout does not seems to match
2023-01-13T02:44:40 < josuah> qyx: do you allow me to use the mas GPIO expanders this time?
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2023-01-13T02:46:57 < josuah> if they are not even on the market yet, they do not count as shortaged right? :P
2023-01-13T02:48:42 < josuah> everyone tries to kill AVRs, even microchip to some extent
2023-01-13T02:48:54 < josuah> and what do AVRs try to kill?
2023-01-13T02:49:03 < josuah> PIC maybe
2023-01-13T02:50:05 < kaki> AVR the bestest
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2023-01-13T02:55:33 < kaki> flu is psychedelic
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2023-01-13T04:49:58 < jadew> my last CCFL display stopped working today
2023-01-13T04:50:20 < jadew> it's actually functional, just that it thinks the brightness down button is constantly pressed
2023-01-13T04:50:39 < josuah> RIP :(
2023-01-13T04:50:47 < jadew> thanks
2023-01-13T04:50:50 < josuah> ah, not fully dead yet?
2023-01-13T04:50:57 < jadew> no, but I don't plan to fix it
2023-01-13T04:51:07 < josuah> so it is retirement
2023-01-13T04:51:31 < jadew> it's going to retire at the electronic waste collection point
2023-01-13T04:51:46 < josuah> a noble fate for a CCFL
2023-01-13T04:52:19 < jadew> I held on to my other CCFLs for years and only a month or two ago I took them there
2023-01-13T04:52:36 < jadew> they were broken for years, and were just occupying space
2023-01-13T04:52:47 < josuah> https://i.imgur.com/WQdK7Si.jpeg
2023-01-13T04:52:57 < josuah> > computer as fuck
2023-01-13T04:53:38 < jadew> heh
2023-01-13T04:54:46 < jadew> it's the one on the right: http://5.12.174.246/stuff/20210322_200828_.jpg
2023-01-13T04:55:24 < jadew> makes the Dell IPS' looks like trash
2023-01-13T04:56:21 < josuah> I forgot that CCFL does not mean low res strobing harsh light and bad colors, but quite the opposite unless very cheap ones
2023-01-13T04:57:07 < jadew> what I always found surprising about them was that they had TN technology, but the viewing angle was extremely good compared to what you get today
2023-01-13T04:57:29 < josuah> cost optimization all the way?
2023-01-13T04:57:36 < jadew> it's no different than the IPS ones really, and doesn't even compare with new TN ones (which I tried and returned)
2023-01-13T04:58:01 < jadew> probably
2023-01-13T04:58:20 < josuah> (unrelated) I was wondering why the hell would one put so many timers in a single chip, this was greatly instructive: https://paste.josuah.net/stm32/en.stm32c0-wdg-timers-general-purpose-timer.pdf
2023-01-13T04:59:05 < josuah> and now I want more timers :D
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2023-01-13T05:33:30 < englishman> karlp:i fucking lol’d. only missing msp430 compatible
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2023-01-13T09:35:41 < qyx> stm32c0?
2023-01-13T09:35:56 < qyx> is that something new?
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2023-01-13T09:43:14 < jpa-> yeah, though i'm not sure what really differentiates it from F0 and G0 - same kind low-cost low-performance models
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2023-01-13T09:50:17 < zyp> I think it's just supposed to be even simpler and cheaper
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2023-01-13T09:55:35 < jpa-> what i really dislike about these new models is how they've removed DMA-to-GPIO possibility
2023-01-13T09:56:00 < qyx> I used it only once ever
2023-01-13T09:56:44 < zyp> hmm, differences between g030 and c011 looks fairly insignificant
2023-01-13T09:57:03 < zyp> c011 runs a bit slower and only got a single i2c periph, g030 got two
2023-01-13T09:57:49 < zyp> also, c011 is only available in packages with up to 20 pins, so I guess it probably lacks gpio that wouldn't be bonded out anyway
2023-01-13T09:59:18 < zyp> hmm, nope, still got A, B, C and F
2023-01-13T09:59:37 < jpa-> fortunately they haven't removed CRC->IDR
2023-01-13T10:01:11 < qyx> it betrayed me yesterday
2023-01-13T10:01:23 < qyx> its value is reset at reset
2023-01-13T10:02:13 < jpa-> that's the best feature of it
2023-01-13T10:02:32 < jpa-> only use i have ever found for CRC->IDR relied on it being reset
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2023-01-13T11:00:26 < zyp> jpa-, what use is that?
2023-01-13T11:06:09 < jpa-> zyp: needing to detect first call after reset in a callback, when i didn't have ability to hook reset handler nor the ability to have static initialized data (messing with the original firmware on dso quad)
2023-01-13T11:13:31 < zyp> haha, wat
2023-01-13T11:16:23 < qyx> whats the recommended practice for c++ setters wrt naming/shadowing of parameters and member variables?
2023-01-13T11:20:04 < zyp> idk
2023-01-13T11:20:31 < zyp> I don't tend to use that much on embedded
2023-01-13T11:20:51 < qyx> trying modules with make
2023-01-13T11:21:14 < qyx> and at the same time trying to remember how to c++ after 14 years or so
2023-01-13T11:25:12 < jpa-> my member variables start with m_
2023-01-13T11:25:32 < qyx> is starting with _ not good? (the python way)
2023-01-13T11:26:38 < qyx> hah works https://paste.jvnv.net/view/nXI8z
2023-01-13T11:26:58 < jpa-> names starting with _ are reserved in some contexts, though i'm not sure if it affects that   https://stackoverflow.com/questions/228783/what-are-the-rules-about-using-an-underscore-in-a-c-identifier
2023-01-13T11:27:06 < qyx> except that compiling main with g++ instead of gcc enlarges it from 1.5 K to 5.5 K
2023-01-13T11:27:10 < jpa-> google recommends trailing _ https://google.github.io/styleguide/cppguide.html#Variable_Names
2023-01-13T11:27:33 < qyx> this is just a quick hack wrapper
2023-01-13T11:28:09 < zyp> qyx, I'd write the constructor as: Gpio(uint32_t port, uint32_t pin) : port(port), pin(pin) {}
2023-01-13T11:28:26 < jpa-> it's always a good idea to make code so that if you disable optimizations, it will no longer fit the device - makes debugging more fun
2023-01-13T11:29:43 < zyp> you can use the same name for a constructor argument and a member variable and the initializer list will still work correctly
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2023-01-13T11:31:28 < qyx> ok I like it so far
2023-01-13T11:32:38 < zyp> if compiling the same code with g++ rather than gcc, it sounds like it's including shit you don't need
2023-01-13T11:32:43 < zyp> e.g. exception metadata
2023-01-13T11:33:04 < karlp> jpa-: lol at c0 keeping CRC->IDR :)
2023-01-13T11:33:38 < qyx> idk I'll need to investigate it later
2023-01-13T11:34:16 < karlp> if compiling main goes from 1.5k to 5.5k, there's something else you might be missing, like the cxa pure virtual shits or something?
2023-01-13T11:34:33 < karlp> damnit, zyp always a line or two ahead :)
2023-01-13T11:35:17 < karlp> zyp: wrt to constructors with that : port(port) style vs a function body, is there any actual difference normally?
2023-01-13T11:35:29 < karlp> I know the : init list can only init members, vs "a whole function"
2023-01-13T11:35:50 < karlp> but does it do anything else, or just more c++ syntax syrup poured on everything?
2023-01-13T11:36:42 < zyp> it can initialize references and other constant members
2023-01-13T11:36:55 < qyx> I don$t like that syntax
2023-01-13T11:39:01 < karlp> qyx: here, for you https://www.doulos.com/partner-webinars/embedded-cplusplus-dispelling-myths-pre-conceptions/?pk_campaign=rns
2023-01-13T11:39:04 < zyp> karlp, and also it lets you get away with using the same name without pre-/suffixing
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2023-01-13T11:39:36 < karlp> (I thought the last doulous session I was in was verrrrry thin and stretched not much content out over an hour, so ymmv)
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2023-01-13T11:41:15 < zyp> shit optimizes to the same: https://godbolt.org/z/eTnMfxsc5
2023-01-13T11:42:46 < zyp> but I prefer being consistent and stick to the first, not only when I have to because of references and shit
2023-01-13T11:46:31 < qyx> zyp: it looks like that the member init list is mandatory now
2023-01-13T11:46:59 < qyx> it prints warnings if not used and you cannot have a reference as member variable without init list
2023-01-13T11:47:54 < zyp> yeah, because a reference can't be assigned to
2023-01-13T11:54:20 < qyx> now, how to make a global instance but doesn't run its constructor when doing so
2023-01-13T11:55:38 < zyp> that's the wrong question
2023-01-13T11:55:47 < benishor> you use a singleton
2023-01-13T11:55:54 < benishor> with lazy instantiation
2023-01-13T11:56:02 < zyp> correct question is how to make a global instance with a constexpr constructor
2023-01-13T11:57:25 < benishor> zyp: well, constexpr constructors are a thing
2023-01-13T11:57:25 < qyx> moving stuff from constructor to an init() method works of course
2023-01-13T11:57:33 < benishor> what's stopping them from global instantiation?
2023-01-13T11:58:05 < zyp> non-const arguments if you're careless
2023-01-13T11:58:23 < qyx> the problem is with eg. ADC, you need to have clocks initialised first, then you can init the ADC itself
2023-01-13T11:58:51 < benishor> I would rather have them explicitly initialized
2023-01-13T11:58:51 < qyx> with new it is straightforward, but no new
2023-01-13T11:59:02 < benishor> able to follow the flow by hand
2023-01-13T11:59:50 < benishor> and writing the client code first will help with the design requirements
2023-01-13T12:01:03 < benishor> <qyx> moving stuff from constructor to an init() method works of course
2023-01-13T12:01:11 < benishor> maybe std::move will be of help at times
2023-01-13T12:02:03 < benishor> defining dependencies in a constructor helps with establishing class invariants 
2023-01-13T12:02:24 < benishor> however, you are then constrained to a certain initialization coreography
2023-01-13T12:05:59 < jpa-> qyx: usually you would separate "init" as in initialize the class, vs. "start" the peripheral
2023-01-13T12:06:42 < jpa-> it's not unreasonable to want to shut down and restart peripherals in runtime
2023-01-13T12:12:55 < karlp> ^^ 
2023-01-13T12:17:20 < benishor> very valid advice
2023-01-13T12:17:38 < benishor> great semantic differentiation
2023-01-13T12:34:42 < qyx> jpa-: yes but then you need constructor, init, start
2023-01-13T12:34:55 < qyx> you cannot do all the init in the constructor
2023-01-13T12:35:09 < qyx> and at the same time you are not doing everything in start, there is one more step in between
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2023-01-13T12:36:23 < benishor> the constructor should be there for establishing the needed dependencies
2023-01-13T12:36:29 < zyp> qyx, I'm typically using the constructor purely for initializing the class itself (with e.g. a reference to the peripheral it'll use)
2023-01-13T12:36:35 < benishor> this way you make sure your class does not get instantiated without the needed dependencies
2023-01-13T12:36:45 < karlp> nah, too hard to get thema ll at the same time.
2023-01-13T12:36:47 < karlp> inject them later.
2023-01-13T12:36:54 < karlp> easier to test that way too.
2023-01-13T12:37:28 < benishor> what's hard to test about constructor dependency injection?
2023-01-13T12:37:44 < benishor> you inject mocks or stubs and that's that
2023-01-13T12:39:32 < benishor> the main question is whether the class can exist without its dependency or not. the ages old aggregation vs composition/assosication issue
2023-01-13T12:39:43 < benishor> association
2023-01-13T12:40:55 < zyp> the issue with global constructors is that the construction order is not guaranteed, so when you've got one class depending on another and got a global instance of each, the dependent class might be constructed before the class it's depending on
2023-01-13T12:44:04 < mawk> if you do C-style constructors you can order them
2023-01-13T12:44:57 < zyp> you can set an explicit priority on C++ constructors too, it's the same mechanism
2023-01-13T12:45:02 < zyp> but fuck that
2023-01-13T12:47:36 < benishor> fuck that indeed, better separate dependency injection from initialization
2023-01-13T12:48:29 < benishor> have a clear init point
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2023-01-13T15:32:07 < josuah> <benishor> fuck that indeed, better separate dependency injection from initialization
2023-01-13T15:32:11 < josuah> I am currently doing this alas in one firmware
2023-01-13T15:33:13 < josuah> I mean in plain C: only the fact that I am having firmware drivers starting each other in a dependency chain, not a fixed startup sequence
2023-01-13T15:33:48 < josuah> The aim was saving energy by starting the peripherals only when needed, allowing to turn everything off, starting only the needed chips, go back off, and looping over
2023-01-13T15:34:20 < josuah> not sure it makes sense in the end. and a suggestion I received (which might be better) is using each independent chip's "standby" mode of any kind
2023-01-13T15:35:28 < josuah> It might even save power to configure every chip and then switch them to "post reset, pending config" mode to "dedicated low-power standby mode"
2023-01-13T15:35:55 < josuah> I have been over-engineering this again! time for destruction of my own code muahahaha!
2023-01-13T15:36:31 < josuah> <zyp> hmm, differences between g030 and c011 looks fairly insignificant
2023-01-13T15:36:31 < josuah> well the price is sure different... in favor of the G0! (at least on LCSC)
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2023-01-13T18:28:03 < karlp> man wtf, this silabs library starts a background thread, and it just fucking dies sometimes.  and there's no event, it just.. dies. and the library thread just sits there waiting on new events taht are never going to come.
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2023-01-13T20:25:29 < josuah> karlp: looks like they did not expect it to possibly crash ever
2023-01-13T20:26:20 < qyx> googling for zyp laks, did you mean 
2023-01-13T20:26:20 < qyx> zip locks
2023-01-13T20:26:24 < qyx> or zippo leaks?
2023-01-13T20:26:53 < josuah> or lok laks
2023-01-13T20:27:16 < josuah> uh oh! out of memory when jpeg encoding
2023-01-13T20:29:02 < josuah> there's an FPGA here, it could do JPEG decoding, but won't be ready for the deadline
2023-01-13T20:29:28 < josuah> let's-a-go with scratching our head then!
2023-01-13T20:35:52 < qyx> -fno.exceptions reduces my code from 10313 to 6212
2023-01-13T20:35:59 < qyx> is there anything else I could do?
2023-01-13T20:37:31 < qyx> -fno-rtti makes no difference
2023-01-13T20:45:40 < josuah> qyx: are there large data tables in here or mostly assembly?
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2023-01-13T20:51:35 < qyx> I didn't get that far yet
2023-01-13T20:57:00 < josuah> micropython has a lot of repeated strings through their whole code (for example: "__init__", "__name__"), so they went for a deduplication thing, but not a linker script option
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2023-01-13T21:19:10 < zyp> qyx, what's the target size?
2023-01-13T21:20:26 < zyp> exceptions and rtti is the main C++ things you can strip out, the rest are the things you'd also use for C (function/data sections and gc-sections, etc)
2023-01-13T21:26:14 < jpa-> and -flto
2023-01-13T21:26:37 < jpa-> it often gets you down to 0kB
2023-01-13T21:27:33 < zyp> :)
2023-01-13T21:28:31 < zyp> I don't use -flto, most of my code ends up in a single translation unit anyway so I don't bother
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2023-01-13T21:57:09 < Laurence_b> anyone here used sockets on windozer?
2023-01-13T21:57:32 < Laurence_b> I'm getting error 10040 unless my read aligns exactly with buffered packets
2023-01-13T21:57:33 < Laurence_b> wtf
2023-01-13T21:58:54 < Laurence_b> so if the end of the buffer doesnt align exactly with the end of a buffered packet there is an error
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2023-01-13T22:03:26 < qyx> zyp: CXXFLAGS += -DNDEBUG -flto -std=c++20 -fmodules-ts -fno-exceptions -fno-rtti -fno-unwind-tables
2023-01-13T22:04:27 < qyx> bootloader is plain C99, app code is C++20, 80 of the code is shared now, so I will be able to compare soon
2023-01-13T22:06:23 < qyx> ok bl is 8000 B, app is 6200 B in C++
2023-01-13T22:06:28 < qyx> sounds reasonable now
2023-01-13T22:10:51 < zyp> do you need -fno-unwind-tables when you've got -fno-exceptions?
2023-01-13T22:11:51 < qyx> idk :>
2023-01-13T22:14:29 < Laurence_b> uh oh
2023-01-13T22:14:31 < Laurence_b> https://www.iter.org/album/construction
2023-01-13T22:14:39 < Laurence_b> >when u think ur having a bad day at wurk
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2023-01-13T23:04:29 < qyx> auto led = Gpio(blah) or Gpio led(blah)?
2023-01-13T23:07:05 < qyx> I consider the first one more readable but the latter is less verbose
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2023-01-13T23:35:25 < qyx> error: block-scope extern declaration 'void std::terminate()' not permitted in module purview
2023-01-13T23:35:35 < qyx> when I do #include <cstdint>
2023-01-13T23:35:50 < qyx> if I do #include <stdint.h> it doesn't object
2023-01-13T23:36:40 < zyp> probably need something like «import cstdint;» instead
2023-01-13T23:36:48 < zyp> I mean, you're using modules
2023-01-13T23:37:49 < qyx> that doesn't work either
2023-01-13T23:38:04 < qyx> but yeah it should be that way
2023-01-13T23:41:35 < qyx> g++ -std=c++20 -fmodules-ts -xc++-system-header iostream
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2023-01-13T23:56:45  * rustyaxe says prays for your soul, qyx 
--- Day changed la tammi 14 2023
2023-01-14T00:00:00 < qyx> everything works and I don't even feel too slow
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2023-01-14T03:24:37 < catphish_> i'm compiling a libopencm3 program with gcc 12 and it complains about the linker script: "warning: stm32_sine has a LOAD segment with RWX permissions"
2023-01-14T03:25:56 < catphish_> this error makes some kind of sense to me, but what's in the elf does not :(
2023-01-14T03:26:42 < catphish_> https://paste.debian.net/1267147/ - why does it whink my ROM is rw?
2023-01-14T03:27:51 < catphish_> i barely understand linkers :(
2023-01-14T03:41:03 < catphish_> it seems the problem is .init_array - this section seems to be read-write, but is explicitly located in ROM
2023-01-14T03:43:59 < catphish_> i don't understand why though :(
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2023-01-14T23:20:48 < ventYl> catphish: what linker script did you use? one generated by genlink.py?
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--- Day changed su tammi 15 2023
2023-01-15T00:02:33 < karlp> that could easily be something that they've changed "security" defaults on, that we can make easy changes to be "secure"
2023-01-15T00:05:25 < karlp> catphish_: write up some more details for me somewhere, in an issue even, it's probably easily fixable, and it's obivously going to keep coming up.
2023-01-15T00:06:49 < catphish_> karlp: thanks, i wrote it up here https://github.com/jsphuebner/stm32-sine/issues/24 - someone helped me out but he really only wanted to commit to silencing the warning
2023-01-15T00:07:08 < qyx> karlp: I got it yesterday too with gcc12
2023-01-15T00:08:10 < catphish_> when i dug into it i found more weirdness than i expected
2023-01-15T00:08:57 < karlp> I've got that open in a tab now, I'll look at it later.
2023-01-15T00:09:01 < catphish_> it does seem it can be fixed by forcing .init_array into a different segment but i don't *really* undersand what's going on
2023-01-15T00:09:04 < catphish_> thanks
2023-01-15T00:09:13 < karlp> been a long few days, pretty much done with things for right now :)
2023-01-15T00:09:17 < karlp> drinking wine and playing fallout
2023-01-15T00:11:29 < qyx> do you have snow karlp?
2023-01-15T00:12:06 < jpa-> ours is melting away fast - weather is like march, not january
2023-01-15T00:19:47 < zyp> ours already did
2023-01-15T00:29:14 < karlp> we have no new snow, but it's been unseasonably cold, so it's just... never fucking left.
2023-01-15T00:38:13 < Steffanx-> Lol its unseasonably warm everywhere but in Iceland -_-
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2023-01-15T12:23:25 < irc> ooh, microchip microchip... https://www.microchip.com/en-us/solutions/motor-control-and-drive/motor-control-products/32-bit-microcontrollers-for-motor-control-applications/pic32cm-mc
2023-01-15T12:24:32 -!- irc is now known as josuah
2023-01-15T12:25:34 < josuah> so that's how you plan to get rid of PICs: keep the name but change the core
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2023-01-15T12:49:37 < ventYl> Firefox does not trust this site because it uses a certificate that is not valid for www.microchip.com. The certificate is only valid for photo.elef.sk.
2023-01-15T12:49:40 < ventYl> wtf?
2023-01-15T12:50:35 < ventYl> hm, sum-ting-wong with my DNS apparently
2023-01-15T13:32:22 < catphish> https://www.microchip.com/en-us/microchipdirect/npv
2023-01-15T13:32:57 < catphish> ^ "Don’t Let Device Shortages Hold Up Your New Design", yeah, because i definitely want to design with a chip that's not actually available
2023-01-15T13:49:56 < Steffanx-> Here it says dns failure, ventYl  
2023-01-15T13:52:23 < ventYl> internet is trying to tell us not to waste our time with Microchip
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2023-01-15T15:18:35 < PaulFertser> ventYl: dig microchip.com @1.1.1.1 gives ; EDE: 22 (No Reachable Authority): (time limit exceeded)
2023-01-15T15:28:23 < ventYl> finally managed to put linker script hacking tool together
2023-01-15T15:28:36 < ventYl> and now I hate Python even more than before
2023-01-15T15:45:04 < josuah> ventYl: that could be a bug on Microchip's side as well :( here is a pdf version: https://paste.josuah.net/stm32/PIC32CM_MC.pdf
2023-01-15T15:46:44 < PaulFertser> In other words, pic32 used to be mips but now there's a cortex-m0 variant too?
2023-01-15T15:47:06 < PaulFertser> 5 V is unusual
2023-01-15T15:48:10 < PaulFertser> To be powered directly from a Li cell, I see.
2023-01-15T15:48:26 < josuah> PaulFertser: 5V might be there to please car manufacturers, although: "I review a lot of automotive designs, absolute majority is based on the 3.3V logic" -- @ataradov
2023-01-15T15:51:47 < josuah> ventYl: would you put the SAM (Cortex-M) devices and the plethora of non-MCU chip they do into the same basket as the PICs?
2023-01-15T15:55:00 < josuah> the other day, I understood (from here) that keeping as many peripherals cores onto the same chip as the MCU (as opposed as using external SPI-driven chips) had plenty of advantages (power usage, cost, part count, I/O overhead...)
2023-01-15T15:55:07 < josuah> what about FPGAs?
2023-01-15T15:59:18 < josuah> where the use-case with FPGAs is any of: signal processing like FFT, predictible lattency for safety or accurate control, data conversion, piping data signals across multiple components, flexibility of wiring with the MCU [...]
2023-01-15T16:04:12 < PaulFertser> josuah: there're many different PLD devices: CPLDs and FPGAs, with quite different capabilities.
2023-01-15T16:06:23 < josuah> PaulFertser: would seek for something with both an MCU and an FPGA in one chip?
2023-01-15T16:07:07 < PaulFertser> josuah: depends on what you really need. There're PSOC series which have some minimal CPLD integrated. That might be nice for implementing relatively high-speed custom digital communication.
2023-01-15T16:08:13 < PaulFertser> josuah: if you can imagine doing something with a set of digital logic ICs on a custom board then probably a PLD device is suitable, as it's basically such a board in a single chip.
2023-01-15T16:08:16 < josuah> I think I forgot about the PSoC, indeed that seems like there are a few MCU with a few gates, or a few FPGA with a tiny MCU core as well
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2023-01-15T16:11:18 < josuah> these things as well: https://www.quicklogic.com/products/soc/eos-s3-microcontroller/
2023-01-15T16:13:48 < josuah> thanks PaulFertser!
2023-01-15T16:14:52 < ventYl> josuah: I have never been working with PIC, I cannot assess it. I only know it has almost non-existent support in opensource toolchains, which on it's own makes it uninteresting to me
2023-01-15T16:16:43 < zyp> I'd imagine pic32 to be well supported
2023-01-15T16:16:54 < ventYl> yeah, but that's essentially cortex-m
2023-01-15T16:17:04 < zyp> I mean the mips one
2023-01-15T16:17:08 < ventYl> PIC8 is weird shit, which is probably almost exclusively coded in assembly
2023-01-15T16:17:09 < zyp> not the new cortex-m one
2023-01-15T16:17:44 < zyp> and yeah, the old 8-bit PIC chips doesn't really suit C code very much
2023-01-15T16:17:45 < josuah> ventYl: it has sdcc, but I think even sdcc says "/!\ deprecated"
2023-01-15T16:18:00 < zyp> they've got shit like banked memory
2023-01-15T16:18:31 < zyp> AVR is way more pleasant than PIC
2023-01-15T16:19:14 < josuah> for having *mostly* a single address space. still a separate one for ROM, although it improved in the latest iterations.
2023-01-15T16:19:26 < ventYl> probably also much better in terms of code density
2023-01-15T16:19:45 < josuah> I mean for the code stored in flash, not ROM like factory bootloader nor EEPROM
2023-01-15T16:20:28 < josuah> rather than more powerful beasts, the ATmega seems to be ATtinys with more pins (the name change when the pin count goes up)
2023-01-15T16:20:54 < zyp> more and more capable peripherals too
2023-01-15T16:21:00 < josuah> and maybe since there were so much free silicon die due to the pin's pads size, they stuffed some more things in here
2023-01-15T16:21:01 < ventYl> the way how AVR does hardvard is pretty confusing
2023-01-15T16:21:20 < ventYl> you have to know where exactly to do flash-read, instead of ram-read, because address spaces do overlap
2023-01-15T16:22:10 < josuah> not enough addressed in the 16-bit for mapping the whole ROM onto it Iirc
2023-01-15T16:22:58 < ventYl> this problem existed even back with ATmega8, which has like 2kB of RAM + 8kB of flash. you can stuff this into 16-bit address space comfortably
2023-01-15T16:23:59 < josuah> so if the device has a little bit more flash than the smallest ATtinys, it needs some "char load_prog_mem_byte(char *);" function using the LPM
2023-01-15T16:23:59 < ventYl> more precisely, it should have been working even if address spaces do overlap. just the memory model of C does not play well with such situation
2023-01-15T16:24:31 < ventYl> josuah: actually, you need that always
2023-01-15T16:25:02 < josuah> not with the latest ATtiny and ATmega for avrxmega3 cores iirc
2023-01-15T16:25:12 < ventYl> compiler isn't smart enough to generate progmem_load() on it's own if the address resides in flash
2023-01-15T16:25:18 < ventYl> oh, so they changed the architecture
2023-01-15T16:25:24 < ventYl> cool, but way too late
2023-01-15T16:25:24 < zyp> I figure it's just a design simplification, not needing a memory crossbar, giving deterministic low latency
2023-01-15T16:25:44 < ventYl> zyp: it's not even a hardware feature. it's purely a software thing
2023-01-15T16:25:55 < ventYl> or even just a compiler thing
2023-01-15T16:26:03 < zyp> I mean the split memory regions
2023-01-15T16:26:08 < josuah> ventYl: as you say! I wonder why it took so long to MCUs to have an unified memory space
2023-01-15T16:26:25 < josuah> ah, zyp you answered me before I asked ^_^
2023-01-15T16:26:36 < ventYl> josuah: what AVR does is a textbook harvard architecture implementation
2023-01-15T16:26:54 < josuah> we'd hope for a modified harvard instead!
2023-01-15T16:28:14 < josuah> > avr-gcc internally adds 0x800000 to all data/bss variable addresses -- https://www.nongnu.org/avr-libc/user-manual/FAQ.html#faq_ramoverlap
2023-01-15T16:28:45 < ventYl> IIRC, ARMv6M - Cortex-M0(+) is also stated to be a harvard architecture, but there reading from flash works seamlessly
2023-01-15T16:28:47 < josuah> the GCC handling for addressing multiple I/O regions in a fake memory address space
2023-01-15T16:28:58 < zyp> no, M0 is von neumann
2023-01-15T16:29:06 < zyp> M3 and M4 are harvard
2023-01-15T16:29:12 < josuah> not even modified harvard?
2023-01-15T16:29:26 < ventYl> zyp: is there any programmer-observable difference?
2023-01-15T16:29:42 < josuah> indeed! I learned something: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Cortex-M#Instruction_sets
2023-01-15T16:30:10 < zyp> not really, typically the memory buses are set up so all buses can access more or less everything anyway
2023-01-15T16:30:18 < zyp> well, there's some differences
2023-01-15T16:30:46 < zyp> on stm32f407 there's a 64k CCM RAM region on the D-bus, you can't execute from that
2023-01-15T16:31:01 < zyp> since it's not accessible by the I-bus
2023-01-15T16:32:07 < ventYl> neglible
2023-01-15T16:33:27 < zyp> but yeah, overall on a modern cpu, von neumann vs harvard vs whatever you'd call what the M7 does are mostly implementation details on how stuff hooks together, because ultimately they all hook up to the same unified address space
2023-01-15T16:35:59 < ventYl> fortunately
2023-01-15T16:36:59 < ventYl> that's probably the main advantage of ARM over AVR. Even if you inflated AVR to be 32-bits and retained it's address space organization, it would have these little hidden traps
2023-01-15T16:37:16 < zyp> you know AVR32 exists?
2023-01-15T16:37:34 < zyp> or existed, at least, I think it's pretty dead by now
2023-01-15T16:37:50 < josuah> would one of the major point of AVR32 (and maybe AVR) be avoiding paying the ARM license?
2023-01-15T16:37:56 < zyp> I worked on an AVR32-based project ten years ago
2023-01-15T16:38:08 < zyp> uh, what
2023-01-15T16:38:28 < specing> josuah: but you have to pay avr32 license ;P
2023-01-15T16:39:14 < zyp> I think it's more a case of AVR32 being developed in parallel with cortex-m, probably got started before cortex-m ate the whole 32-bit mcu market
2023-01-15T16:39:35 < zyp> although now the latter is not true anymore, since risc-v is growing rapidly
2023-01-15T16:40:58 < Steffanx-> Apparently at32uc3 is still a thing. Long time since I've looked at it
2023-01-15T16:41:12 < ventYl> zyp: I know AVR32 existed, but it never grown to serious use and is probably dead by now
2023-01-15T16:41:39 < josuah> specing: true!
2023-01-15T16:41:43 < ventYl> and as I see on wikipedia, the UC3 variant is also harvard, although wikipedia does not detail the memory layout
2023-01-15T16:41:51 < josuah> specing: I meant the point of Microchip going with AVR instead of ARM for their 8-bit chips
2023-01-15T16:42:09 < ventYl> josuah: there is no 8-bit ARM
2023-01-15T16:42:16 < ventYl> so you cannot do 8-bit chip with it
2023-01-15T16:42:53 < josuah> I am not sure Microchip has a particular advantage at keeping these chips at 8-bit with the newer process they have
2023-01-15T16:44:03 < josuah> all AT* share the same core now, I was wondering why did they insist on keeping the AVR arch for them as opposed to ARM (not 8-bit ARM, important to note thanks)
2023-01-15T16:44:24 < ventYl> there is still a plenty of use for 8-bit microcontrollers with consumer electronics. and it may be an advantage, if you can build dead-cheap MCU, where you can shrink both memory and flash, yet still retain it usable
2023-01-15T16:45:52 < ventYl> cars are plagued by shitloads of PIC8 MCUs, because they are automotive-grade, dead-cheap and serve the purpose of multiplexer very well
2023-01-15T16:45:58 < josuah> not the kind one would fine on DigiKey or Mouser or even Octopart I think :)
2023-01-15T16:46:20 < josuah> 8051 all the way!
2023-01-15T16:46:39 < josuah> Oh you mentioned PIC8 
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2023-01-15T16:47:06 < ventYl> advantage of PIC8 and AVR over 8051 is that their core is probably smaller as 8051 is, IIRC a CISC core. it does a ton of useless things
2023-01-15T16:47:08 < josuah> el-cheapo el-china 8-bitters are not likely anything-grade
2023-01-15T16:47:54 < josuah> I read most mildly recent 8051 were made 1T and hardwired, and were picked a lot by the chinese for having the design files available
2023-01-15T16:48:08 < ventYl> well, automotive orders their chips in 5 or 6 figure batches, so it is dead cheap even if they order directly from Microchip
2023-01-15T16:48:30 < ventYl> for PIC8s, which are literally everywhere, they probably order in milions of units per year per Tier1 supplier
2023-01-15T16:48:37 < josuah> oh right! not the pricees listed publicly, that changes the context here
2023-01-15T16:48:45 < josuah> I had no idea!
2023-01-15T16:49:05 < josuah> I thought there were marginal in volume, but turns it might only be the case for smaller projects
2023-01-15T16:49:07 < ventYl> they are listed publicly, of course :)
2023-01-15T16:49:15 < ventYl> but they are of little interest of general public
2023-01-15T16:49:28 < ventYl> e.g. like Atmega8A (IIRC) is also automotive-grade
2023-01-15T16:49:35 < ventYl> even the chineese ripoff is
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2023-01-15T16:49:49 < josuah> I did not know
2023-01-15T16:50:41 < josuah> please, allow me to wait 30s, my learning revolution meter is beeping, I need to pause for a moment...
2023-01-15T16:51:14 < ventYl> yet, for usual mortal being, there is no basically difference from typical ATmega8 other than the price, so you wouldn't probably buy that
2023-01-15T16:52:11 < josuah> ok I'm good I can grasp more knowledge from IRC
2023-01-15T16:52:26 < josuah> so it is all about the certification cost and insurances?
2023-01-15T16:56:50 < ventYl> I assume that there are also some physical changes, such as the device has different electrical design of pins, so that typical specs for GPIO pins / ADC / whatever holds outside of industrial operating conditions, up until the boundaris of automotive required operating conditions
2023-01-15T16:57:13 < ventYl> but, would you really need that your leakage current is within spec up to +125*C?
2023-01-15T16:57:16 < ventYl> probably not
2023-01-15T16:57:37 < josuah> absolutely not in the projects I've encountered...
2023-01-15T16:57:51 < specing> Laurence_b: https://libreddit.spike.codes/r/fuckcars/comments/10c17mv/somehow_i_feel_like_this_belongs_here/
2023-01-15T16:58:01 < ventYl> yeah, that's why vast majority of embeded projects suffice with industrial-grade parts
2023-01-15T16:58:48 < Laurence_b> lol
2023-01-15T17:01:08 < ventYl> zyp: uhm, the MPU design in AVR32 is weird and I would also say, completely and entirely useless
2023-01-15T17:04:53 < josuah> Why do you frequently use an MPU for? stability? security?
2023-01-15T17:06:16 < ventYl> the simples stuff you can do with it is to guard against stack overflow, either intentional or unintentional done by underestimating stack consumption
2023-01-15T17:07:18 < josuah> which can happen frequently when designing, or using the device if there is some data processing done
2023-01-15T17:07:55 < ventYl> it can happen at any time, unless you do extensive stack analysis and you confirm that your code cannot eat more stack than you reserved for it
2023-01-15T17:08:05 < ventYl> which is almost impossible if you allow recursion
2023-01-15T17:08:18  * Laurence_b is trying to implement this in mathlab:  https://wp.optics.arizona.edu/optomech/wp-content/uploads/sites/53/2016/10/chen-1979.pdf
2023-01-15T17:08:22 < Laurence_b> nightmare...
2023-01-15T17:10:11 < josuah> oh the pretty beautiful math all over!
2023-01-15T17:10:15 < Laurence_b> the appendix seems to have typos...
2023-01-15T17:10:37 < josuah> it looks like they moved the document 1mm while scanning them
2023-01-15T17:10:47 < Laurence_b> equation B3 should have lower case C I think
2023-01-15T17:11:01 < Laurence_b> I'm worried there are other errors hiding, the solver wont converge
2023-01-15T17:11:21 < Laurence_b> I might have to give up and try to find someone else who has solved this problem
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2023-01-15T17:12:17 < zyp> can't you just solve it yourself?
2023-01-15T17:12:50 < Laurence_b> it gets very hard
2023-01-15T17:13:03 < Laurence_b> I'd rather not mail about hyperbolic trig
2023-01-15T17:13:05 < zyp> TMI
2023-01-15T17:13:12 < Laurence_b> actually... maybe wolfram alpha could help
2023-01-15T17:14:28 < Laurence_b> but the free edition prob doesnt have enough recourses to solve these equations
2023-01-15T17:17:02 < josuah> Laurence_b: is there any hint in other papers referring this one? The article has gone a long way since publication
2023-01-15T17:17:17 < josuah> Laurence_b: I might not be of much help with math unfortunately
2023-01-15T17:18:25 < Laurence_b> josuah: yeah good idea to look for references, I think I'm out of luck trying to make the appendix work
2023-01-15T17:21:51 < ventYl> josuah: you may still find something like "based on equation 4 in [1] we conclude following computation".
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2023-01-15T20:01:19 < Steffanx-> tct: SSL_ERROR_RX_RECORD_TOO_LONG 
2023-01-15T20:01:47 < Steffanx-> oh it fixed itself
2023-01-15T20:01:56 < Steffanx-> or maybe not
2023-01-15T20:03:27 < tct> no
2023-01-15T20:03:34 < Steffanx-> no it did not indeed
2023-01-15T20:03:34 < tct> working on networking infrastructure atm
2023-01-15T20:03:41 < tct> replacing edge gateway
2023-01-15T20:04:06 < tct> everything works except for TLS certificate acquisition :D
2023-01-15T20:04:15 < Steffanx-> alright better tell your network administrator to have things fixed soon
2023-01-15T20:04:36 < tct> on it
2023-01-15T20:04:55 < englishman> reboot the raspberry pi
2023-01-15T20:06:16 < Steffanx-> Just when im visiting a jbo website thinks a broken.
2023-01-15T20:06:28 < Steffanx-> Are
2023-01-15T20:06:40 < englishman> time to reinstall tomatoWRT
2023-01-15T20:12:35 < tct> Steffanx-, back up
2023-01-15T20:14:33 < tct> Steffanx-, it's interesting timing indeed :)
2023-01-15T20:19:23 < tct> another interruption will ocurr in a few minutes and then we're good.
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2023-01-15T22:09:25 < Steffanx-> tct: wasnt looking for much, so was done in 2 seconds
2023-01-15T22:13:44 < tct> :)
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2023-01-15T22:43:58 < josuah> I turns out that a lot more things than I though feature an MCU. Latest example was an Azoteq touch controller: https://www.azoteq.com/images/stories/pdf/iqs620_datasheet.pdf
2023-01-15T22:44:11 < josuah> I mean feature a processor core
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--- Day changed ma tammi 16 2023
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2023-01-16T11:53:41 < benishor> good morning, people of earth
2023-01-16T11:53:56 < benishor> where morning is relative to timezone and dst
2023-01-16T12:00:57 < Steffanx-> I wish you a good morning as well benishor 
2023-01-16T12:01:15 < Steffanx-> And whatever time zone you're in. Its still my wish for you to have a good morning 
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2023-01-16T12:16:29 < benishor> Steffanx-: awww, that is very sweet of thee
2023-01-16T12:16:30 < benishor> thank you
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2023-01-16T12:16:41 < benishor> my timezone is close to yours
2023-01-16T12:16:53 < benishor> (I'd guess)
2023-01-16T12:17:09 < benishor> GMT+2 here
2023-01-16T12:18:42 < ventYl> cats can eat, purr and meow at the same time
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2023-01-16T13:35:27 < karlp> even ST knows that MOE is a common error on timers: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/rzxNc.png
2023-01-16T13:36:50 < PaulFertser> "Did you consider"
2023-01-16T13:37:10 < karlp> the rest of the doc even implies it's one of the most common support tickets 
2023-01-16T13:38:16 < PaulFertser> I mean, what kind of wording it is? Like they're making fun of silly customers?
2023-01-16T13:41:20 < karlp> nah, just language mixups. I wouldn't read too much into it.
2023-01-16T13:41:33 < karlp> some people would view that as quite poliely and gently trying to point out the MOE.
2023-01-16T13:42:32 < qyx> DID YOU?!
2023-01-16T13:42:45 < PaulFertser> Are you sure? Sounds really "passive aggressive" to me.
2023-01-16T13:45:12 < PaulFertser> "- Mummy I lost my boot while playing. - Did you consider not being a dumb arse?"
2023-01-16T14:02:03 < catphish> i hate electronics sometimes, i have an OLED display powered by an RP2050, OLED display is rated 3.3v - 5.0V, RP2040 is 3.3V only. Both have been running happily on 3.3V for months, but today the setup was dead. I checked the supply rail, solid 3.3V, reset it a few times. totally dead. then i plugged in usb (which due to a bug powers the whole board at 5V) and everything works, plugged it back into the 3.3V supply, all good
2023-01-16T14:02:24 < catphish> i have literally no idea how briefly powering this thing from 5V has resuscitated it
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2023-01-16T14:38:17  * drzacek adds catphishs idea to his big book of troubleshooting methods
2023-01-16T14:40:22 < qyx> catphish: you know how a clogged drainage works
2023-01-16T14:43:48 < ventYl> :D
2023-01-16T14:54:43 < jpa-> http://efton.sk/STM32/gotcha/index.html  i seem to hit #1 and #40 the most
2023-01-16T14:57:08 < catphish> qyx: lol, i think it was coincidence, it's died again now and 5v supply didn't help
2023-01-16T14:57:23 < catphish> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan_song
2023-01-16T14:58:16 < karlp> 34 fucked me up on that list
2023-01-16T14:58:31 < ventYl> jpa-: #1 is cruel reminder you forgot to enable the clock
2023-01-16T14:59:12 < catphish> if you can't remember to enable clocks, don't try working with the L series :D
2023-01-16T14:59:31 < catphish> the clock tree in that thing is insane
2023-01-16T15:05:04 < drzacek> can you remove the oled and check again? maybe your power supply is too weak and can't provide for both (or at all) and it dies/can't start? Maybe 5V charged some capacitors, jump started it and it worked for a while?>
2023-01-16T15:08:24 < drzacek> jpa-, stealing that link too
2023-01-16T15:24:40 < catphish> drzacek: the MCU seems to work fine, i can talk to it over USB, it's just the OLED not starting up, i suspect it has its own internal power supply and that's failed
2023-01-16T15:24:53 < catphish> i don't know much about oleds
2023-01-16T15:25:05 < drzacek> is it the small 128x64 one?
2023-01-16T15:25:08 < catphish> yes
2023-01-16T15:25:23 < catphish> actually for a monochrome oled it's quite large, but yes
2023-01-16T15:26:10 < catphish> this one specifically https://www.diymore.cc/collections/led-display-module/products/2-42-inch-12864-oled-display-module-iic-i2c-spi-serial-for-arduino-c51-stm32-green-white-blue-yellow
2023-01-16T15:27:01 < catphish> interestingly it died like this once before, for a few days, then recovered for months
2023-01-16T15:28:11 < catphish> it's been somewhere very damp, my suspicion is that there may be condensation inside the sealed display unit
2023-01-16T15:29:59 < drzacek> what id you power it with 5V (and pico with 3.3)?
2023-01-16T15:31:12 < catphish> i can only power both at the same voltage
2023-01-16T15:31:55 < catphish> the RP2040 board i'm using has a rather serious design flaw where the 5V USB power is connected directly to the 3.3V rail, so when i plug in USB, the whole lot is powered from 5V USB
2023-01-16T15:32:14 < catphish> this doesn't seem to damage the RP2040 though
2023-01-16T15:32:26 < drzacek> can you measure the voltage on the display?
2023-01-16T15:32:48 < drzacek> it looks like it has some huge inductor next to U1, whatever it is. so it looks like it does some power supply conversion, no?
2023-01-16T15:33:46 < catphish> i suspect it has a boost converter, i can't easily get at that power supply though
2023-01-16T15:34:08 < catphish> it's solder piggybacked onto the RP2040 board
2023-01-16T15:34:40 < drzacek> I assume it's some own design, not the pico board?
2023-01-16T15:35:00 < catphish> it's this board https://docs.longan-labs.cc/1030018/
2023-01-16T15:36:33 < drzacek> and where does the lcd go?
2023-01-16T15:36:47 < drzacek> 2x3 header at the bottom?
2023-01-16T15:38:34 < catphish> https://i.imgur.com/WeScj4g.jpg
2023-01-16T15:38:38 < catphish> https://i.imgur.com/V7UdH1d.jpg
2023-01-16T15:38:40 < catphish> thusly
2023-01-16T15:39:43 < catphish> L1 is now encased in hot melt glue
2023-01-16T15:40:36 < drzacek> *shrugs* no idea then
2023-01-16T15:41:00 < drzacek> maybe desoldering the screen, and connecting with wires for debug first?
2023-01-16T15:41:09 < kaki> catphish is back at it?
2023-01-16T15:41:10 < drzacek> then you can power it externally 
2023-01-16T15:41:57 < catphish> drzacek: i could i will likely replace both boards, but it might be nice to work out why it failed so it doesn't happen again
2023-01-16T15:42:21 < catphish> it's possible that encasing the power supply in hot glue isn't good for it, but i can't think why
2023-01-16T15:44:41 < drzacek> would be cool to have schematic from that oled module
2023-01-16T15:48:02 < drzacek> could it be some buck-boost converter? it says it can work with 2.7 to 5.5V, so it either has to boost a bit or drop down, and if that thing fails, then no power. and since you have 3.3v maybe you just need to get rid of the U1 and L1 and make a bridge so it powers directly
2023-01-16T15:50:55 < drzacek> https://de.aliexpress.com/item/33024448944.html tf it wants 13V?
2023-01-16T15:52:18 < aandrew> drzacek: it generates 13V, yes
2023-01-16T15:52:57 < aandrew> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003745628043.html so cute
2023-01-16T15:55:00 < drzacek> aandrew, I want this integrated in my sunglasses and display power levels of people I meet
2023-01-16T15:55:40 < aandrew> ... people's power levels?
2023-01-16T15:56:47 < BrainDamage> you'd need more than one to display over 9000
2023-01-16T15:56:53 < catphish> interesting, i have 13.6V on the other board
2023-01-16T15:57:08 < catphish> maybe i can make a bodge here :)
2023-01-16T15:57:25 < aandrew> #21 always pissed me off
2023-01-16T15:59:50 < drzacek> BrainDamage, if I ever meet someone with over 999 then I'm dead anyway
2023-01-16T16:00:09 < drzacek> probly the reason why my cheap multimeter can only go up to 199V
2023-01-16T16:01:12 < BrainDamage> jokes aside, to be usable in a heads up display, you'd need conductive transparent lines
2023-01-16T16:01:52 < BrainDamage> those exist, but I'm not sure if you can access them cheaply for diy
2023-01-16T16:02:43 < BrainDamage> the display's own terminals will likely be extremely annoying
2023-01-16T16:06:21 < catphish> drzacek: i see 13.5V on the board
2023-01-16T16:07:14 < drzacek> maybe for backlight?
2023-01-16T16:07:18 < drzacek> seems weird
2023-01-16T16:08:10 < catphish> hmm, now its 24V
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2023-01-16T16:20:53 < catphish> drzacek: oh you found the schematic, nice :)
2023-01-16T16:21:48 < catphish> so that 13V supply has a consistent +20V on it
2023-01-16T16:24:08 < drzacek> the one that works or the one that doesnt?
2023-01-16T16:24:22 < catphish> i don't have one that works
2023-01-16T16:24:25 < drzacek> oh
2023-01-16T16:24:32 < drzacek> maybe some resistor shorted/burned?
2023-01-16T16:25:06 < catphish> yeah i'm looking at R1 and R2 now
2023-01-16T16:25:18 < catphish> but theres a cat on me
2023-01-16T16:26:49  * karlp glares at CC1/CC2 resistors
2023-01-16T16:27:11 < catphish> yeah Vfb should be 1.3V but it's sitting at 400mv
2023-01-16T16:28:58 < catphish> now it's at 1.3V and the 13v is correct
2023-01-16T16:29:22 < catphish> i have no idea what's going on, but clearly something in this power supply has failed and *probably* fried the screen
2023-01-16T16:34:36 < catphish> power supply seems fine now, but display totally dead
2023-01-16T16:41:25 < PaulFertser> That efton's list of gotchas is quite an extensive and detailed, looks like really worth reading every now and then.
2023-01-16T16:51:08 < drzacek> could be the cff, that IC seems to have pretty complex control and expects precise values to work properly (looks to me this way, but I'm a noob)
2023-01-16T16:51:44 < catphish> well it's now entered a steady state of all the power rails being correct, but nothing else happening
2023-01-16T16:52:33 < catphish> so i suspect something inside the display has been destroyed by whatever happened to that power supply
2023-01-16T16:53:34 < catphish> i've ordered a new one, i'll pair it with a new rp2040 board, and hope this one lives longer
2023-01-16T16:55:09 < drzacek> can't you use the cheap small 0.9" oled? should be signal compatible, same pixel size - juz smaller
2023-01-16T16:55:21 < drzacek> and 3.3/5V ready
2023-01-16T16:55:43 < catphish> i'd have to redesign the casing, and really i like the big one!
2023-01-16T16:56:54 < catphish> annoyingly expensive, but i'll cope
2023-01-16T16:59:54 < catphish> i'll be more sparing with the hot glue this time, just in case that caused anything to overheat
2023-01-16T17:02:10 < catphish> nice imprint of the SMPS there
2023-01-16T17:02:11 < catphish> https://i.imgur.com/2tBnFZu.jpg
2023-01-16T17:03:04 < catphish> i suspect hot glue is not a good thermal conductor, it certainly could have been responsible, or put mechanical stress on the solder joints
2023-01-16T17:03:28 < catphish> thanks for the help
2023-01-16T17:05:03 < drzacek> maybe it changed the capacitance a bit? dunno
2023-01-16T17:05:19 < drzacek> 3d print some nice case so you dont have to use glue 
2023-01-16T17:21:40 < PaulFertser> http://www.efton.sk/t0t1/semic_change.htm that's some nice chart showing which company got renamed/sold to which.
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2023-01-16T18:00:16 < fenugrec> it's missing the vishay black hole, absorbing all passive mfg's for the past 20+ years
2023-01-16T18:03:23 < karlp> remarkably simple line for broadcom too.
2023-01-16T18:03:27 < karlp> completely ignores avago
2023-01-16T18:03:30 < PaulFertser> fenugrec: indeed. wek at efton dot sk 
2023-01-16T18:03:56 < karlp> meh, non-searchable text...
2023-01-16T18:04:05 < fenugrec> "includes searchable pdf"
2023-01-16T18:04:17 < fenugrec> still a valiant effort
2023-01-16T18:06:36 < karlp> oh sure. definitely some good bits, 
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2023-01-16T18:40:42 < Laurence_b> anyone know what type of card is 43 (poss 42.8) mm wide?
2023-01-16T18:40:54 < Laurence_b> it looks a bit like express card, but width is off
2023-01-16T18:42:07 < Laurence_b> nvm its compact flash
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2023-01-16T19:19:59 < jbo> does anybody here have some knowledge about LiFePo vs LiIon batteries in terms of chargers? I seem to find a lot of contradicting information online about it.
2023-01-16T19:20:36 < ventYl> qyx: could have some
2023-01-16T19:50:42 < Steffanx-> so jadew what usb pcie card did you end up buying?
2023-01-16T20:04:15 < PaulFertser> jbo: do you mean batteryuniversity.com data isn't accurate?
2023-01-16T20:06:39 -!- boB_K7IQ [~boB_K7IQ@ip72-201-138-188.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
2023-01-16T20:07:47 < jbo> PaulFertser, that seemed to be one of the better sources. I'm currently looking for a charger module (ideally just the PCB) to charge a 4s LiFePo4 pack. There seem to be a lot of modules available rated at 3.7V nominal cell voltage that are classified as LiFePo4 chargers. As I understood, one would want a nominal cell voltage of 3.2V.
2023-01-16T20:08:47 < PaulFertser> jbo: you should check the datasheet of your cells. But yes, LiFePo4 is likely 3.2 V nominal.
2023-01-16T20:08:55 < PaulFertser> So 3.7 V mustn't be used.
2023-01-16T20:09:06 < PaulFertser> What does the pack say?
2023-01-16T20:10:23 < jpa-> lifepo4 is usually charged to 3.6 or 3.7V, while normal li-ion goes to 4.2V
2023-01-16T20:10:48 < jpa-> "nominal cell voltage" is useless spec
2023-01-16T20:10:54 < jbo> PaulFertser, I got individual LiFePo4 cells with a claimed nominal voltage of 3.2 V
2023-01-16T20:11:05 < jbo> jpa-, can you elaborate on your last statement?
2023-01-16T20:11:25 < PaulFertser> jbo: that nominal voltage doesn't really say anything.
2023-01-16T20:11:30 < jpa-> nominal = just a name
2023-01-16T20:11:52 < PaulFertser> jbo: probably that it's about 40-60 % charged at it.
2023-01-16T20:12:03 < jpa-> and different manufacturers name things differently
2023-01-16T20:12:24 < PaulFertser> Still, if they claim it's 3.2 V then it certainly means regular LiIon charger can't be used.
2023-01-16T20:12:34 < jbo> these are the cells I got: http://files.gwl.eu/inc/_doc/attach/StoItem/8218/221017_datasheet_baterie_EX-L15_2.pdf
2023-01-16T20:13:04 < qyx> jbo: there is not much useful charge going into lifepo4 above about 3.3-3.4 V per cell
2023-01-16T20:13:21 < qyx> maximum voltage is 3.65 V usually
2023-01-16T20:13:32 < qyx> keeping cells at that voltage for too long causes swelling
2023-01-16T20:13:37 < PaulFertser> jbo: so it's clear you can only charge them to 3.75 V, not more. Use appropriate charger (or a lab PSU and monitor the temperature manually).
2023-01-16T20:13:55 < jpa-> any CC/CV charger that has CV voltage of 3.6..3.8 V/cell is fine for lifepo4
2023-01-16T20:14:28 < qyx> lifepo4 are quite forgiving, charge with cccv to 3.5 V max OR to 3.5 V max with 1/10C cutoff
2023-01-16T20:14:43 < qyx> sorry, to 3.65 with cutoff
2023-01-16T20:15:51 < jpa-> you'll want a bms in any case for protection and balancing
2023-01-16T20:16:28 < jbo> jpa-, got a BMS. just looking for charger solutions. Need some PCB type deal that I can easily hide somewhere for a prototype/demo type deal
2023-01-16T20:16:55 < jpa-> what current?
2023-01-16T20:17:24 < jbo> no hard requirement. but somewhere < 5A
2023-01-16T20:17:38 < jbo> I guess something like this should do then:  https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32981169861.html
2023-01-16T20:17:58 < qyx> what input?
2023-01-16T20:18:06 < jbo> whatever I want it to be. 
2023-01-16T20:18:06 < qyx> meanwell has some chargers
2023-01-16T20:18:09 < jpa-> LED power supplies are often suitable, if they have current limit & adjustable voltage
2023-01-16T20:18:18 < jbo> jpa-, good tipp, thanks!
2023-01-16T20:18:45 < jpa-> but yeah, that'll probably work fine
2023-01-16T20:19:11 < jbo> currently trying to figure out why the pictures of the LiFePo4 cells I linked above have a "This Side up" marking
2023-01-16T20:19:21 < jbo> cuz I kinda need to lie them down (horizontally/flat)
2023-01-16T20:19:43 < qyx> they need to be this side up
2023-01-16T20:19:55 < qyx> actually it depends on the manufacturer
2023-01-16T20:20:07 < qyx> there are orientation agnostic cells too
2023-01-16T20:20:16 < jpa-> try putting them that side down on metal table ;)
2023-01-16T20:20:32 < jbo> qyx, so these cells lying down will simply not work out? :S
2023-01-16T20:20:54 < qyx> they will but will not probably perform long term
2023-01-16T20:21:03 < qyx> lying flatis the worst position
2023-01-16T20:21:11 < jpa-> i've never seen orientation-dependent lifepo4 before :o
2023-01-16T20:21:13 < jbo> qyx, why is this?
2023-01-16T20:21:15 < qyx> depending how the electrodes are oriented i side
2023-01-16T20:21:28 < qyx> probably the gel electrolyte is not that gelish
2023-01-16T20:21:40 < jbo> I need this to work for a few months, nothing more
2023-01-16T20:21:46 < qyx> thatsok
2023-01-16T20:21:52 < jbo> but I need it not to blow up, hence using LiFePo rather than LiIon/LiPo
2023-01-16T20:23:28 < jbo> thanks for all the inputs, guys!
2023-01-16T20:28:57 < qyx> oh a bit of fire will not kill anybody
2023-01-16T20:30:20 < Steffanx-> i bet jbo even has proper insurance.
2023-01-16T20:34:47 < jbo> jbo tried to avoid making battery stuff whenever possible. this time it's pretty integral so :/
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2023-01-16T20:39:38 < jpa-> buy a usb-c powerbank?
2023-01-16T20:39:59 < jpa-> or one of those ecoflow thingies
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2023-01-16T20:43:44 < octorian> So I'm trying to get an interrupt from a PWM-configured timer channel on this STM32L0.  It works, with one catch.  The first time after power-up, I get the first interrupt on the *second* period of the timer.  Any time after that (even if I disable/re-enable it), the interrupt comes in on the first period as expected.
2023-01-16T20:44:08 < octorian> (I hope I'm explaining this well enough)
2023-01-16T20:44:11 < jpa-> gotcha #40 maybe?
2023-01-16T20:44:32 < jpa-> preloaded registers
2023-01-16T20:45:22 < octorian> That's my first guess, though I haven't seen any mention of the preload stuff affecting this particular register.  Anything specific worth trying or looking for in the docs?
2023-01-16T20:45:59 < jpa-> try pokin the UG bit to force update
2023-01-16T20:56:46 < jbo> jpa-, yeah, unfortunately not an option in this case
2023-01-16T20:57:11 < octorian> Doesn't seem to help, but not sure I'm doing it right.  Regardless, I'm not sure if that makes sense.  This just happens the first time after power-up.  If I disable PWM, then restart this code later (without a power-cycle), it doesn't skip that first interrupt.
2023-01-16T21:02:30 < octorian> I can certainly work around this, just wondering why its happening in the first place.
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2023-01-16T21:10:37 < jbo> trying to acquire another 34461A DMM. Apparently these are  hard to come by these days as well
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2023-01-16T21:30:28 < Steffanx-> so get the 34465A jbo  
2023-01-16T21:31:05 < Steffanx-> Costs you only 25% more
2023-01-16T21:36:36 < qyx> I would like to have one too, we were using them at $work
2023-01-16T21:36:45 < qyx> but meh, $$$
2023-01-16T22:12:01 < karlp> meh, busy at work, sipeed sold out of the m0s shits already
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2023-01-16T22:13:55 < karlp> fucking arm gnu toolchain 12.2 has busted python in gdb.
2023-01-16T22:14:03 < karlp> and doesn't provide a separate -py version.
2023-01-16T22:14:20 < karlp> good fucking job arm.
2023-01-16T22:14:28 < zyp> the trick is to just get a decent gdb-multiarch and forget about toolchain provided ones
2023-01-16T22:14:43 < karlp> yeah, teh fedora gdb is probably fine these days.
2023-01-16T22:14:56 < karlp> I know it was fine for arm shit at least, just habbit typing in the command line.
2023-01-16T22:15:06 < karlp> I know the fedora multiarch one didnt' work for riscv/wch at least.
2023-01-16T22:15:06 < zyp> I've been using the debian one for arm
2023-01-16T22:15:13 < zyp> not sure I've tried it at risc-v yet
2023-01-16T22:15:20 < zyp> since I don't do risc-v at work
2023-01-16T22:15:31 < karlp> yeah, well, work I get complexity studio.
2023-01-16T22:15:51 < karlp> never got enogh round-tuits to get openocd to work properly with the silabs parts.
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2023-01-16T22:16:57 < karlp> yay, libopencm3 warnings with gcc12...
2023-01-16T22:17:19 < karlp> warning: array subscript 0 is outside array bounds of 'volatile uint32_t[0]'
2023-01-16T22:17:24 < karlp> that.... doesn't sound correct...
2023-01-16T22:17:35 < zyp> well, it is and it isn't
2023-01-16T22:17:41 < karlp> yeah...
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2023-01-16T22:17:45 < qyx_> karlp: yeah found out last week
2023-01-16T22:18:08 < karlp> closer.c:(.text._close_r+0xc): warning: _close is not implemented and will always fail
2023-01-16T22:18:11 < karlp> fucking fantastic
2023-01-16T22:18:17 < karlp> thanks for all this bullshit.
2023-01-16T22:18:30 < karlp> _isatty_r is not implemented! 
2023-01-16T22:18:32 < karlp> no shit
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2023-01-16T22:20:42 < karlp> I don't get catphishs's "rw text" thing though
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2023-01-16T22:43:13 < Laurence_b> Egyptians were building mega structures (some tallest in the world for 4000 years) and coming up with cancer treatments when subhuman Europeans were running around wearing animal skin and fighting each other with sticks and stones
2023-01-16T22:44:34 < karlp> someone make him stop again please.
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2023-01-16T23:13:58 < octorian> Anyways, I got a "good enough" solution to my issue by swallowing the first timer interrupt and mucking with the preload control to get the timing consistent enough to do the job.  May revisit it later, but its good enough for now.
2023-01-16T23:15:09 < octorian> If anyone's curious what I was trying to do, basically I'm using LED drivers where the initial pulse has to be a certain width before I can switch to "normal PWM" at my frequency of choice.  So I'm doing 100% duty cycle for long enough to do that, before switching to normal operation.
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2023-01-16T23:29:38 < karlp> there's an faq on "first pulse" being wrong,
2023-01-16T23:29:45 < karlp> related to shadow register operation...
2023-01-16T23:30:00 < karlp> has anyone managed to change their account email with lcsc?
2023-01-16T23:30:21 < octorian> karlp, where is this faq?
2023-01-16T23:31:30 < karlp> um, it was linked earlier today, and i saw it again in some stm32 timer training shits
2023-01-16T23:31:33 < karlp> onet ick.
2023-01-16T23:31:53 < karlp> (to change your lcsc accountemail, you do it via jlcpcb accounts, or via easyeda accoutns..., according to lcsc's faq ;)
2023-01-16T23:32:37 < octorian> I think I found it.
2023-01-16T23:32:57 < octorian> Was referred to by someone else earlier as well.
2023-01-16T23:33:18 < octorian> I'll bookmark it.
2023-01-16T23:33:52 < karlp> http://efton.sk/STM32/gotcha/g40.html
2023-01-16T23:34:06 < qyx> somehow I don't like that list
2023-01-16T23:34:15 < karlp> well, it's largely one person's list...
2023-01-16T23:34:31 < qyx> ok, the MOE thing is really a gotcha
2023-01-16T23:34:39 < qyx> but there are many obvious "issues"
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2023-01-16T23:56:57 < Steffanx-> Obvious to the experienced qyx.
2023-01-16T23:58:46 < jbo> qyx, the LiFePo4 cell manufacturer doesn't seem to explicitly state the battery cell orientation/position anywhere other than in the storage recommendations where it is also just more of a recommendation.
2023-01-16T23:59:32 < jbo> also jpa- ^
--- Day changed ti tammi 17 2023
2023-01-17T00:00:06 < qyx> yeah some manufacturers only say "there may be long term usage impact if not positioned the recommended way"
2023-01-17T00:00:34 < qyx> also on some cells (yinlong) there was no marking before, they added it later
2023-01-17T00:00:35 < jbo> indeed
2023-01-17T00:00:40 < jbo> so felling pretty confident about this
2023-01-17T00:01:02 < qyx> gwl.eu for example puts those marks on all cells they are rebranding
2023-01-17T00:01:38 < jbo> qyx, those are the cells I'm getting
2023-01-17T00:01:45 < qyx> which exactly?
2023-01-17T00:01:53 < jbo> I linked them earlier, let me see
2023-01-17T00:02:00 < qyx> oh didn't catch it
2023-01-17T00:02:20 < qyx> noice
2023-01-17T00:02:23 < jbo> https://shop.gwl.eu/LiFePO4-cells-3-2-V/ELERIX-Lithium-Cell-LiFePO4-Prismatic
2023-01-17T00:02:26 < jbo> those
2023-01-17T00:02:52 < qyx> I have both 8 Ah and 25 Ah version of those, no markings before
2023-01-17T00:02:59 < qyx> I used them "the wrong way" too
2023-01-17T00:03:21 < jbo> neat
2023-01-17T00:03:24 < jbo> are you happy with them?
2023-01-17T00:03:59 < qyx> they are not bad, some are swelling a bit though
2023-01-17T00:04:04 < qyx> I have some 60 Ah
2023-01-17T00:04:11 < jbo> how bad is the swelling?
2023-01-17T00:04:12 < qyx> then they added the cells need to becompressed
2023-01-17T00:04:24 < jbo> wut?
2023-01-17T00:06:21 < jbo> qyx, can you elaborate?
2023-01-17T00:06:59 < qyx> trying to find that, they removed it apparently
2023-01-17T00:07:23 < karlp> that link doesn't work for me?
2023-01-17T00:07:54 < jbo> the place where the cells go in are pretty tight/narrow. there won't be much space for swelling so how bad is it with yours?
2023-01-17T00:08:17 < qyx> I have one installation with 48 of 60 Ah cells
2023-01-17T00:08:25 < qyx> over the past 4 years I replaced 5 of them
2023-01-17T00:08:42 < karlp> nvm, I found something simialr enough
2023-01-17T00:08:44 < qyx> they were > 45 mm thick (36 mm original)
2023-01-17T00:09:06 < jbo> o.O
2023-01-17T00:09:14 < qyx> now I ordered those new 70 Ah and they are swollen 2-3 mm after the initial charge
2023-01-17T00:09:19 < qyx> so I perceive it as a feature
2023-01-17T00:09:59 < qyx> 8 Ah ones I bought 6 years ago are about 22 mm (18 mm original)
2023-01-17T00:10:26 < qyx> they were recommending to compress the cells with about 200 kg of force to prevent swelling and delamination
2023-01-17T00:10:33 < qyx> EVE too, CALB too
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2023-01-17T00:10:54 < qyx> some others mentioned many manufacturers recommend that, we were talking about it recently
2023-01-17T00:11:22 < Steffanx-> That might have been on telegram?
2023-01-17T00:11:34 < qyx> idk, probably yeah with peterm and sync 
2023-01-17T00:11:48 < Steffanx-> Yeah then it was for sure
2023-01-17T00:11:56 < jbo> qyx, any reference on those 200kg claims?
2023-01-17T00:15:52 < qyx> I am not able to find it now
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2023-01-17T00:22:15 < qyx> probably inside https://shop.gwl.eu/battery-guide/
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2023-01-17T00:32:14 < jbo> hmm
2023-01-17T00:32:25 < jbo> I have a 22mm space for a 20mm cell
2023-01-17T00:33:37 < qyx> putting them in a peli case? :>
2023-01-17T00:35:50 < jbo> I'm afraid it's worse than that
2023-01-17T00:37:30 < ventYl> qyx: that's quite possible, Samsung cells inside car batpacks are also compressed by stainless steel plates
2023-01-17T00:37:42 < ventYl> although I am not sure about the force
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2023-01-17T00:53:39 < karlp> zyp: I've rebased my branch on dev_v2 altest, cherry-picked the startup handler you added (thanks!) and retested and it's all still working again.
2023-01-17T00:53:54 < karlp> extremelyu limited progress for an evening, but it's all back up on my desk again now at least :)
2023-01-17T00:56:27 < zyp> :)
2023-01-17T00:56:57 < karlp> is there a neat way of letting the "toolcahins" and "defines: RISCV" get shared?
2023-01-17T00:57:03 < karlp> that was literally my biggest merge issue :)
2023-01-17T00:57:19 < zyp> shared?
2023-01-17T00:57:40 < karlp> like, can platforms/riscv.yaml define toolchains for all platforms?
2023-01-17T00:57:51 < karlp> you still only have one, but i have bumblebee, wch3 and wch4, 
2023-01-17T00:57:57 < karlp> and you're adding a litex one right?
2023-01-17T00:59:00 < zyp> I'm not fully sold on the way you've split that
2023-01-17T00:59:30 < karlp> well, I'm all ears, I needed somethign, the IRQs are different...
2023-01-17T00:59:47 < karlp> but yeah, something's not right, given that toolchains and defines and blah are all duped.
2023-01-17T01:00:18 < zyp> but yeah, if you want to make a cpu implementation layer like that, then that should be an intermediate layer
2023-01-17T01:01:11 < zyp> so mcu definition specs a cpu implementation and cpu implementation specs generic riscv
2023-01-17T01:02:07 < zyp> and I agree it does make a lot more sense for riscv than for cortex-m, since there's much more variation
2023-01-17T01:03:42 < zyp> hmm
2023-01-17T01:03:53 < zyp> you've got a change adding meta.arch
2023-01-17T01:04:20 < karlp> I migh have been trying something?
2023-01-17T01:04:23 < karlp> that was a while ago :)
2023-01-17T01:04:31 < karlp> I'm cooked for the night though
2023-01-17T01:04:44 < zyp> so a riscv.yaml matching on arch containing all the common stuff should work
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2023-01-17T09:43:35 < qyx> any embedded queue in c++? zyp maybe? stack overflow is of no help there
2023-01-17T09:44:43 < zyp> embedded queue?
2023-01-17T09:45:17 < zyp> something like this? https://cgit.jvnv.net/laks/tree/async/queue.h?h=dev_v2
2023-01-17T09:46:36 < qyx> queue for embedded :)
2023-01-17T09:47:09 < zyp> ringbuffers tend to make for good queues
2023-01-17T09:47:43 < jpa-> qyx: https://www.etlcpp.com/documentation.html
2023-01-17T09:48:00 < jpa-> "containers" has a selection of a few queue types
2023-01-17T09:48:05 < zyp> just remove the async stuff if you want a plain synchronous queue
2023-01-17T09:52:30 < qyx> oo thanks
2023-01-17T09:54:58 < jpa-> etlcpp in general feels pretty nice, and the developer is friendly also
2023-01-17T09:55:50 < jpa-> some things are a bit too heavy with templates IMO, but i guess that's what you get when using C++ :)
2023-01-17T09:56:41 < qyx> hm I actually need only a small queue, 4 bytes is probably fine
2023-01-17T09:56:59 < qyx> I am curious if it could be implemented with uint32_t and a simple shift
2023-01-17T09:57:11 < qyx> without the need to use write/read pointers
2023-01-17T09:57:28 < qyx> I can tolerate zero as an empty flag
2023-01-17T09:57:52 < qyx> put with queue <<= 8 | value
2023-01-17T09:58:20 < qyx> get with (queue <<= 8) & 0xff
2023-01-17T09:58:31 < qyx> sorry get with (queue >>= 8) & 0xff
2023-01-17T09:58:39 < jpa-> that seems more like a stack than a queue
2023-01-17T09:58:58 < qyx> true, I need to pop from the other side
2023-01-17T09:59:11 < jpa-> and you need to find the first non-zero entry
2023-01-17T09:59:26 < qyx> nope, why?
2023-01-17T09:59:38 < jpa-> if the queue is not full?
2023-01-17T10:00:24 < qyx> queue is 0x00000000, push 0xaa, 0x000000aa, push 0xbb, 0x0000aabb
2023-01-17T10:00:30 < qyx> hm, ok, yeah
2023-01-17T10:00:42 < jpa-> __builtin_clz() will probably work for that
2023-01-17T10:01:07 < qyx> and for bonus points, atomic write/read would be good
2023-01-17T10:01:11 < qyx> to avoid disabling interrupts
2023-01-17T10:01:47 < jpa-> yeah, that part is quite simple with atomic exchange instruction
2023-01-17T10:01:49 < qyx> that's probably more complex than a simple ring buffer
2023-01-17T10:04:58 < qyx> I miss freertos
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2023-01-17T10:58:54 < qyx> thanks zyp, I got inspired to avoid my off-by-one errors
2023-01-17T10:59:18 < zyp> hmm?
2023-01-17T10:59:34 < qyx> by your queue
2023-01-17T10:59:43 < qyx> also return n + 1 < N ? n + 1 : 0;
2023-01-17T10:59:56 < qyx> I like return (n + 1) % N; more
2023-01-17T11:01:50 < zyp> as long as N is a power of two or you're not on a chip with no/a slow divider
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2023-01-17T11:06:47 < qyx> true
2023-01-17T11:06:50 < zyp> I checked godbolt, gcc produces slightly better code with modulo for power of two N, and much worse code for non-power of two
2023-01-17T11:08:01 < zyp> i.e. and-masking is slightly smaller than testing and branching, but actual modulo is much larger
2023-01-17T11:08:23 < zyp> so I'll stick to what works well for any N
2023-01-17T11:09:20 < qyx> no instruction for modulo?
2023-01-17T11:16:02 < mawk> modulo with a power of two is just a masking operation
2023-01-17T11:16:11 < mawk> with CISC architecture maybe qyx 
2023-01-17T11:16:44 < mawk> a % 2^n == a & (2^n - 1)
2023-01-17T11:17:51 < mawk> if you need a fast modulo you can do some fft shenanigans
2023-01-17T11:18:05 < mawk> for big big numbers
2023-01-17T11:19:01 < BrainDamage> ._.
2023-01-17T11:20:49 < karlp> missing the point.gif
2023-01-17T11:21:08 < mawk> I just saw two points
2023-01-17T11:21:10 < mawk> you can't miss them
2023-01-17T11:21:19 < mawk> [10:19:01] <BrainDamage> ._. ← here
2023-01-17T11:21:26 < karlp> https://tenor.com/uAoS.gif
2023-01-17T11:21:36 < mawk> lol
2023-01-17T12:07:38 < qyx> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/AkdoQ
2023-01-17T12:07:40 < qyx> any ideas?
2023-01-17T12:07:55 < qyx> both main.cpp and io.cpp have #include <libopencm3/stm32/timer.h>
2023-01-17T12:21:25 < jpa-> what is @io? is it some class or some namespace or something?
2023-01-17T12:21:39 < jpa-> are you accidentally including some headers inside a namespace io {} or similar?
2023-01-17T12:24:07 < qyx> io is a module
2023-01-17T12:24:34 < qyx> if I replace the TIM_OC1 enum member with a int literal and add -fpermissive, it compiles
2023-01-17T12:25:32 < qyx> it looks like when a C header is included directly and in a module, it treats them as two different headers and those two enums as different types
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2023-01-17T12:53:35 < jpa-> qyx: were you using #include or import?
2023-01-17T12:56:04 < mawk> what is this @ thing
2023-01-17T12:56:11 < mawk> is this C++ module????
2023-01-17T12:56:31 < jpa-> yes?
2023-01-17T12:57:28 < mawk> I didn't know it was released now
2023-01-17T13:12:27 < karlp> hrm, base64 for bytes to json, or binascii.hexlify?
2023-01-17T13:15:19 < zyp> karlp, depends on the purpose; hex if you're doing simple shit with short data, base64 if you've got enough data to benefit from the higher encoding efficiency
2023-01-17T13:15:49 < zyp> if you've got a bytes object, might as well just do .hex() on it than fucking around with hexlify
2023-01-17T13:15:58 < karlp> yeh, was just getting to that point, this data is short enough that hex is not a meaningful size increase.
2023-01-17T13:16:09 < karlp> it's max 31bytes btle advertisements.
2023-01-17T13:16:26 < karlp> I mean, in theory, advertising extensions could end up here to, but still worst cas only 512 or something.
2023-01-17T13:16:39 < jadew> Steffanx-, I didn't but thanks for reminding me
2023-01-17T13:16:52 < jadew> "Get Hulu, Disney+, and ESPN+, all with ads."
2023-01-17T13:16:59 < karlp> has .hex() been around forever?
2023-01-17T13:17:15 < karlp> or is it just that I sometimes wanted hexlify because I had strings or lists or something?
2023-01-17T13:17:34 < karlp> or am I used to using it from py2 days when you didn't have "bytes" 
2023-01-17T13:39:07 < qyx> jpa-: hm yeah include, nobody said I cannot
2023-01-17T13:50:52 < jpa-> qyx: i'm not sure how it is supposed to work, maybe you are supposed to make a module called "libopencm3" and include all the headers you need there
2023-01-17T13:51:06 < jpa-> because otherwise #include will make it seem as if it was declared inside that module
2023-01-17T13:51:47 < jpa-> or maybe you are supposed to do     module; #include <foobar.h>   export module io;
2023-01-17T13:52:22 < jpa-> https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/language/modules  "#include should not be used in a module unit (outside the global module fragment), because all included declarations and definitions would be considered part of the module. Instead, headers can also be imported with an import declaration"
2023-01-17T13:54:17 < qyx> that sounds relevant
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2023-01-17T13:56:53 < qyx> jpa-: thanks
2023-01-17T13:57:23 < qyx> I lost two hours with it
2023-01-17T13:57:51 < jpa-> i'll try to be more predictive in the future
2023-01-17T14:06:54 < qyx> now, constructor delegation and init lists
2023-01-17T14:07:00 < qyx> there are mines on every single step
2023-01-17T14:07:20 < qyx> I feel like without an arm or so
2023-01-17T14:08:16 < qyx> io.cpp:107:37: error: mem-initializer for 'LbPowerOutput::_timer_oc' follows constructor delegation
2023-01-17T14:08:22 < qyx> so, exchange them
2023-01-17T14:08:34 < qyx> io.cpp:107:60: error: constructor delegation follows mem-initializer for 'LbPowerOutput::_timer_oc'
2023-01-17T14:09:08 < karlp> c++ winning again with word soup
2023-01-17T14:09:49 < qyx> interwebs say you cannot do both and you should instead do init() and call it from both overloaded constructors
2023-01-17T14:09:59 < qyx> so that's c++'s delegation
2023-01-17T14:10:05 < qyx> who invented that language
2023-01-17T14:10:30 < zyp> what are you even trying to do?
2023-01-17T14:10:49 < qyx> Constructor(int param1): param1(param1) {};
2023-01-17T14:11:03 < qyx> and then overloaded constructor Constructor(int param1, int otherParam): ...
2023-01-17T14:11:15 < qyx> calling the first constructor and additionally setting the other param
2023-01-17T14:11:42 < qyx> Constructor(int param1, int otherParam): Constructor(param1) {} works
2023-01-17T14:12:05 < qyx> Constructor(int param1, int otherParam): param1(param1), otherParam(otherParam) {} works too
2023-01-17T14:12:31 < qyx>  but Constructor(int param1, int otherParam): Constructor(param1), otherParam(otherParam) {} doesn't
2023-01-17T14:13:39 < zyp> Constructor(int param1, int otherParam = 0) : param1(param1), otherParam(otherParam) {}
2023-01-17T14:13:42 < zyp> done
2023-01-17T14:13:49 < zyp> no need to fuck around with overloading
2023-01-17T14:15:03 < qyx> yeah that works for this specific case
2023-01-17T14:15:15 < karlp> better use rust.
2023-01-17T14:15:28 < qyx> nah
2023-01-17T14:22:19 < josuah> rust might not be too bad of a language without all the npm-style coder approach
2023-01-17T14:22:52 < josuah> or development boils down to finding a package that does the thing I want, and integrating it, rather than developing the feature
2023-01-17T14:23:51 < josuah> for instance spending my days looking for a library that zip two lists with good performances for my particular use-case
2023-01-17T14:25:40 < ventYl> qyx: constructors cannot be daisy-chained. there is stuff done "in the background", which prevents that
2023-01-17T14:25:44 < ventYl> this is intentional
2023-01-17T14:25:46 < josuah> or using libraries for all these small tiny things that not required much anything for them, like "error management" or formatting logs
2023-01-17T14:26:11 < josuah> but it might be possible (an for microcontrollers, possibly required) to use them differently
2023-01-17T14:26:39 < qyx> ventYl: yeah but then it feels like C89
2023-01-17T14:28:08 < ventYl> qyx: that's because you misuse it
2023-01-17T14:28:35 < ventYl> fucking windows driver development kit installer failed after sudo-ing with Access Denied
2023-01-17T14:29:49 < qyx> c++17 or which exact one introduced constructor delegation, why should I feel like I am misusing a supported feature?
2023-01-17T14:30:02 < qyx> oh we support something but not in this and that case
2023-01-17T14:30:08 < qyx> and not even in that case
2023-01-17T14:50:43 < ventYl> actually it seems that none of microsoft installers can deal with the situation that you are not using admin-privileged accounts
2023-01-17T14:50:47 < ventYl> fucktards
2023-01-17T14:54:48 < catphish> kaki: it does seem that i'm back at it, this weekend i rewrote the induction motor control algorithm :)
2023-01-17T15:00:17 < ventYl> catphishwagen works?
2023-01-17T15:01:11 < josuah> wagen? so a rather large motor that is?
2023-01-17T15:10:56 < catphish> much changes https://github.com/catphish/stm32-sine/commit/c9d5a4849ef25e0acb173028b4cf1ed93364c11b
2023-01-17T15:21:26 < kaki> https://matrix-irc.snt.utwente.nl/_matrix/media/v3/download/hacklab.fi/vUlVExpeyRDygEseptTaKuJP/20230117_120400.jpg
2023-01-17T15:55:28 < drzacek> kaki, bamboozling poor ai. no wonder they always turn out racist, sexist and hitler-like
2023-01-17T16:25:57 < karlp> catphish: those should be struct literaly in my mind, not a soup of nested defines being careful with line ends...
2023-01-17T16:36:54 < catphish> karlp: i don't really understand those defines :)
2023-01-17T16:41:36 < jpa-> looks like xmacro to me
2023-01-17T16:41:47 < jpa-> so it probably generates struct, interface code etc.
2023-01-17T16:42:49 < karlp> eh, I ddin't look all the way into it.
2023-01-17T16:58:47 < Steffanx-> Lol
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2023-01-17T22:45:45 < karlp> bleh, serial/by-id doesn't work when the wchlink _provides_ a serial, but it's always the same serial.
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--- Day changed ke tammi 18 2023
2023-01-18T00:11:11 < qyx> zyp: may I ask which project uses laks's thread scheduler?
2023-01-18T00:11:23 < qyx> I fail to find any on your cgit nor github
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2023-01-18T00:53:50 < karlp> ok, single byte basic spi master on ch58x now too, with laks.
2023-01-18T00:54:04 < karlp> converted by untested all the stm32 spi to new style.
2023-01-18T00:54:12 < karlp> dma and fifo shit can wait.
2023-01-18T01:10:15 < josuah> karlp: which mcu and peripherals would you say got the new style?
2023-01-18T01:15:02 < josuah> oh some risc-v
2023-01-18T01:19:12 < karlp> this is laks internal "new style" apis, 
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2023-01-18T02:42:57 < kaki> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1md5SOsTA4jcPsR5xmGCazVmscVMRgZhz/view?usp=sharing circuit ideas between AC/DC power supply and brushed motor? It's overloading and cannot start
2023-01-18T02:43:09 < kaki> CA
2023-01-18T02:43:26 < kaki> cap bank and relay?
2023-01-18T02:44:40 < kaki> charge via resistor and discharge via diode
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2023-01-18T03:12:28 < kaki> cap bank would need to be quite large though
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2023-01-18T03:21:12 < BrainDamage> have you tried to measure the peak current?
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2023-01-18T04:36:36 < kaki> just measure resistance of the circuit?
2023-01-18T04:43:05 < BrainDamage> yeah, that'll suffice
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2023-01-18T09:58:43 < zyp> qyx, the old preemptive multithreading?
2023-01-18T09:58:53 < zyp> or the new coro scheduler?
2023-01-18T10:00:46 < zyp> for the old threading shit, I think this is the only thing that ever used it: https://cgit.jvnv.net/suzumebachi/tree/main.cpp#n257
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2023-01-18T12:25:38 < qyx> zyp: yep
2023-01-18T12:25:59 < zyp> yep what
2023-01-18T12:26:26 < ventYl> yep nope
2023-01-18T12:26:57 < qyx> 07:58 < zyp> qyx, the old preemptive multithreading?
2023-01-18T12:27:03 < qyx> oh lol
2023-01-18T12:27:18 < qyx> and where is the switch_context() called?
2023-01-18T12:27:52 < zyp> https://cgit.jvnv.net/laks/tree/interrupt/fault.cpp#n32
2023-01-18T12:27:59 < ventYl> PendSV_Handler I guess
2023-01-18T12:28:02 < zyp> oh, right
2023-01-18T12:28:22 < qyx> but I don't see it
2023-01-18T12:28:38 < ventYl> <Interrupt::SVCall>
2023-01-18T12:28:49 < ventYl> that's fancy C++ way how to wrap PendSV_Handler
2023-01-18T12:28:52 < zyp> yeah, it's actually not running preemptive
2023-01-18T12:29:03 < zyp> that's not PendSV, that's SVCall
2023-01-18T12:29:08 < ventYl> ah, right
2023-01-18T12:29:38 < ventYl> a bit different design
2023-01-18T12:29:40 < zyp> PendSV would be the right solution for preemptive context switching, but apparently I only ever bothered testing it in a cooperative manner, using the svc instruction to yield
2023-01-18T12:29:58 < zyp> ref. https://cgit.jvnv.net/laks/tree/os/thread.h#n59
2023-01-18T12:30:21 < ventYl> main advantage of PendSV is, that it is defensive against cases where context switches happen within potentially nested interrupts
2023-01-18T12:30:35 < zyp> again, I haven't found much need for multithreading, so I never put all that much work into it
2023-01-18T12:30:38 < zyp> yeah, I know
2023-01-18T12:31:34 < ventYl> I have compared my C-only MT-aware scheduler to that stuff and it is almost the same. it just uses pendsv and schedule and switch functions are split
2023-01-18T12:31:52 < ventYl> so it may or may not be preemptive depending on how you manage to raise PENDSV flag
2023-01-18T12:32:05 < zyp> the intention was to make it preemptive
2023-01-18T12:32:18 < qyx> and why you dropped the thing?
2023-01-18T12:32:31 < zyp> lack of need
2023-01-18T12:33:12 < zyp> and the context switch doesn't work on v6m, so I decided to throw it out for now, rather than fix it
2023-01-18T12:33:42 < ventYl> flashbacks...
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2023-01-18T16:04:28 < fenugrec> *laks of need
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2023-01-18T18:25:05 < karlp> so I've got this, https://bin.jvnv.net/file/c7z3e.png and a string of them.  and... it mostly works.  I can plug in 6/7 devices, they all work. each one runs ~3mA or so, all running the silabs bootloader.
2023-01-18T18:25:31 < karlp> but.. sometimes, one of them will pull ~40mA, run happily, and instead of passing 5V to DFP, it puts about 1.8V to the DFP vbus...
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2023-01-18T18:26:17 < karlp> the CC1/CC2 voltages facing up at the break point are still 0.4V, just like on the good cases, and exactly matching 80uA current source from the controller into 5.1k, 
2023-01-18T18:26:36 < karlp> but it fails to flag it as _SINK and doesn't flag it as _FAULT either.
2023-01-18T18:27:09 < karlp> my only best guess at the moment is that I've got a soft start issue and the (presumed 8051 inside) the controller is getting into some dead state?
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2023-01-18T18:27:49 < karlp> it's of course possible that the extra current is coming from somewhere else on the board, but that doesn't explain the 1.9V going out on downstream vbus.
2023-01-18T19:18:04 < zyp> does it stay like that until powercycled?
2023-01-18T19:18:09 < zyp> how often does it reproduce?
2023-01-18T19:20:56 < karlp> sometimes... it will drop, and the whole chain will start running, so I believe the tps controller chip is cycling something, attempting, but hard to say.
2023-01-18T19:21:03 < karlp> sometimes 100% sometimes 1%
2023-01-18T19:21:09 < karlp> it's infuriating.
2023-01-18T19:21:28 < zyp> i bet
2023-01-18T19:21:42 < karlp> sometimes will never happen if I plug them in one by one, sometimes every time even with only two devices.
2023-01-18T19:23:04 < karlp> what's unhelpful is that when it fails, and I get this ~1.8 or so, (somtimes 2V) on vbus, that's enough to _sometimes_ get enough voltage to start the mcu, so the presence/absence of a device on the chain isn't always a correct indicator of where it has gone wrong.
2023-01-18T19:23:30 < karlp> and of course, everything is "modern" packaging, so even probing anything is a trainwreck, let alone trying to mod it all.
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2023-01-18T20:25:33 < machinehum> Do all zener diodes has a test current of like 5mA
2023-01-18T20:25:50 < machinehum> Does anyone know of some that have at test current in the sum 1mA?
2023-01-18T20:25:56 < machinehum> sub
2023-01-18T20:26:29 < machinehum> You guys will all be absolutely thrilled to know I got my dimmer working
2023-01-18T20:26:52 < machinehum> jpa-: Will be upset to know I used a AVR over STMG0
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2023-01-18T20:32:04 < qyx> machinehum: you dare not
2023-01-18T20:32:13 < machinehum> I dare
2023-01-18T20:32:26 < qyx> also we have a new avr, it is called stm32c0
2023-01-18T20:33:26 < machinehum> And now I'm pissed that there arn't individule vectors for each interrupt pin 
2023-01-18T20:33:34 < machinehum> Have to check the pin in ISR
2023-01-18T21:20:46 < Steffanx-> pissed or slightly annoyed machinehum ?
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2023-01-18T21:42:30 < machinehum> Livid
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2023-01-18T22:16:30 < fenugrec> machinehum, bzx84 has Vf @ 1mA, below that you're... zener'ing wrong
2023-01-18T22:17:12 < fenugrec> but I believe it becomes an almost perfect exponential at low currents
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2023-01-18T22:17:57 < fenugrec> oh the graphs of bzx84 datasheet go all the way to 10uA. so there
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2023-01-18T22:19:16 < karlp> bzx8850 too...
2023-01-18T22:19:34 < fenugrec> and, the lower the zener voltage, the less perfect they get. below ~ 3v3 is pretty awful
2023-01-18T22:20:19 < karlp> yeah.... we've been finding that :)
2023-01-18T22:20:26 < karlp> the bottom end gets gross...
2023-01-18T22:20:35 < karlp> curves back up into messy shit
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2023-01-18T22:21:33 < fenugrec> yes, very very round "knee", and lots of variation part-to-part. Use a tlv431 for anything accurate down to 1.2V P)
2023-01-18T22:22:27 < kaki> evenings
2023-01-18T22:22:34 < karlp> 80uA there too.
2023-01-18T22:22:43 < karlp> but hrm, could indeed improve things
2023-01-18T22:22:47  * karlp files that away
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2023-01-18T22:23:32 < fenugrec> what are you zener'ing where 80uA is an issue ?
2023-01-18T22:23:47 < karlp> things....
2023-01-18T22:23:51 < fenugrec> ah yes
2023-01-18T22:24:40 < karlp> (selectively turning on supercap charging only when voltage is over a certain point, so we can harvest and run at very low rates, and only give _excess_ to the supercap)
2023-01-18T22:25:31 < fenugrec> o, low-power stuff. bleh
2023-01-18T22:26:25 < karlp> well, yah, what other reason would 80uA matter? :)
2023-01-18T22:26:56 < fenugrec> BMS front-end, 80uA through a current sense resistor, makes the cell voltage readings all weird
2023-01-18T22:27:05 < fenugrec> through a *filter resistor
2023-01-18T22:29:09 < karlp> sure sure, of course there's heaps of places 80uA adds up.
2023-01-18T22:29:30 < karlp> hell,80uA is the source current for usb-c cc detection if you use sources instead of votlage dividers too...
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2023-01-18T22:54:06 < karlp> weird, ch58x defines dma start and end addresses as 16bit registers, 
2023-01-18T22:54:25 < karlp> example code takes a uint8_t* and casts to uint32_t, then saves it into this 16bit register...
2023-01-18T22:55:08 < karlp> now, in the SFR.h file, it has _extra_ definitions for the same registers as 32bit, but.. those aren't the ones used.
2023-01-18T22:55:24 < karlp> I wonder how this actually works.
2023-01-18T23:06:02 < karlp> just fine it seems... weird. https://bin.jvnv.net/file/wbR2G.png
2023-01-18T23:07:14 < zyp> they're 16-bit, not pointer to 16-bit?
2023-01-18T23:09:09 < karlp> https://github.com/openwch/ch583/blob/main/EVT/EXAM/SRC/StdPeriphDriver/inc/CH583SFR.h#L985
2023-01-18T23:09:28 < karlp> 16bit aiui, and in laks I've got them as volatile uint16_t and it works...
2023-01-18T23:10:53 < karlp> trying to convince gdb and wchlink to break in the right place for me :)
2023-01-18T23:11:03 < zyp> so, the only way that can work is that your buffer happens to be in some 64k window of the memory space (presumably first 64k of sram)
2023-01-18T23:12:27 < karlp> yeah, it appears that dma must be in ram, and it jsut throws out the 0x2000 at the frront...
2023-01-18T23:13:11 < karlp> only 32kB ram anyway right....
2023-01-18T23:13:33 < karlp> sooo. I need to try and put some data in flash, and obviusly it's going to fail...
2023-01-18T23:13:41 < zyp> :)
2023-01-18T23:13:46 < karlp> unless I try and hack it to use these defined byt not documented 32bit accessors...
2023-01-18T23:13:54 < zyp> try both
2023-01-18T23:14:14 < karlp> yeah, wife's finished her shit though, need to go watch a movie.  but interesting....
2023-01-18T23:14:21 < fenugrec> is that one of those penny-mcu with minimal docs, undocumented debug ifc etc ?
2023-01-18T23:14:50 < fenugrec> oh, thinking of ch32v003 here
2023-01-18T23:14:54 < karlp> not quite entirely, some people are "excited" about the ch32v003, which is, yeah, but this particular one is a cheap, reasonable well documented bluetooth part
2023-01-18T23:15:08 < karlp> it still has undocumented debug, but at least it's debug used on more than one single part
2023-01-18T23:15:16 < karlp> that ch32v003 has an entirely new single wire one.
2023-01-18T23:15:19 < karlp> fuck it right off.
2023-01-18T23:15:38 < zyp> I glanced over how cjtag works earlier
2023-01-18T23:15:54 < fenugrec> how does code density of those smaller riscv cores compare to say CM0/M0+ ? e.g. does it eat noticeably different amount of flash for similar code
2023-01-18T23:15:59 < karlp> yeah, I had hoped it was just cjtag, but apparently no-one's traces we've got look anything like cjtag.
2023-01-18T23:16:20 < karlp> fenugrec: I cna't comment on that really sorry, haven't got enough apps that I was trying to just port as is, this is new dev and play.
2023-01-18T23:16:22 < zyp> seems only sifive has done some riscv with cjtag so far
2023-01-18T23:16:37 < zyp> and I'm not sure that's silicon or just fpga demos
2023-01-18T23:16:39 < karlp> well, if it had "just been swd" that would have been fine too...
2023-01-18T23:18:33 < zyp> well… it's possible, but it'd be unconventional :)
2023-01-18T23:19:12 < karlp> sure, but it'd be better than "we're not going to document this, here's some binarys you can flash on some of our other 8bit parts, and here's a grossly hacked up openocd that talks to that"
2023-01-18T23:19:39 < karlp> whee, trying to spi dma from rom crashed openocd...
2023-01-18T23:19:56 < zyp> I've been reading up on the riscv debug spec recently and experimenting with it
2023-01-18T23:20:09 < zyp> my python gdb thing can read memory from both cortex-m and risc-v now
2023-01-18T23:22:01 < zyp> the risc-v debug architecture is kinda similar to the cortex-m one, but dissimilar enough that you can't just stick a risc-v DM on a cortex-m DP
2023-01-18T23:22:34 < karlp> ok, writing to the 32bit registers doesn't really work.
2023-01-18T23:24:09 < zyp> ADIv5 defines a JTAG-AP, which lets you access arbitrary JTAG devices behind a SWJ-DP, so one obvious way to use SWD on risc-v is to just throw that in front of a risc-v JTAG-DTM
2023-01-18T23:24:35 < zyp> but what'd be even more efficient is to just hook up a MEM-AP directly to the risc-v debug bus
2023-01-18T23:25:14 < zyp> it'd be a level of indirection more than a regular cortex-m setup, but it should otherwise work fine :)
2023-01-18T23:27:53 < karlp> nope, even after fixing some addresses when I siwtched to the 32bit mode, you just get whatevers in sram at that truncated chunk
2023-01-18T23:30:25 < karlp> yep, I cna write to that bit of zeroed ram with gdb and it jsut writes them instead.
2023-01-18T23:30:29 < karlp> ok, no problems.
2023-01-18T23:30:41 < karlp> interesting limitation,
2023-01-18T23:34:29 < machinehum> karlp: fenugrec thanks
2023-01-18T23:37:42 < fenugrec> btw I was probably wrong about Iz/Vz being exponential at low current. Not sure if it follows any kind of nice law when reverse-biased
2023-01-18T23:40:53 < josuah> <karlp> that ch32v003 has an entirely new single wire one.
2023-01-18T23:40:53 < josuah> yet they faked the name from SWD, causing even a bit more frustration
2023-01-18T23:41:49 < josuah> I do not think ch32v003 does bluetooth
2023-01-18T23:42:05 < fenugrec> it does not.
2023-01-18T23:42:44 < josuah> the OpenOCD fork from mounriver was open-source by some dude (not the original author), and a working OpenOCD toolchain was extracted from here, but it was refused from upstream
2023-01-18T23:43:51 < josuah> it does use APB/AHB and other ARM componentsn though
2023-01-18T23:44:00 < josuah> those who are license free I think
2023-01-18T23:47:08 < zyp> I think I looked at that, and it's just using some proprietary USB protocol to shout at the risc-v DM, so it doesn't have any details what's going on on the physical layer
2023-01-18T23:48:38 < josuah> state of RISC-V debug ecosystem: still fractionned
2023-01-18T23:50:04 < josuah> surprising to see that the strenght of ARM, helping a lot its adobtion, is the implicit agreement on the toolchain and protocols around it
2023-01-18T23:50:17 < josuah> so ARM sells agreement between its users? usually agreement does not cost anything
2023-01-18T23:50:48 < zyp> there's plenty of weird ARM parts as well
2023-01-18T23:51:33 < josuah> like the RP2040 with (as I was told, IIRC) a custom multi-drop protocol because ARM did not have it ready while RP2040 was designed
2023-01-18T23:52:09 < josuah> so the silicon uses a nonstandard protocol, so they went with a custom probe for it, and the probe needs a custom OpenOCD fork for it...
2023-01-18T23:52:27 < josuah> but lately the probe was converted to a standard protocol that upstream OpenOCD can use
2023-01-18T23:52:28 < zyp> multidrop SWD predates rp2040 by many years
2023-01-18T23:52:41 < josuah> hmm, so I might have misunderstod that once again
2023-01-18T23:54:07 < josuah> ah, it was acutally karlp once again! :D
2023-01-18T23:54:17 < josuah> and zyp was the first one to explain me interrupts a while back too
2023-01-18T23:54:56 < josuah> ohh, it was openocd multidrop support *to openocd*, not to ARM. Silly me!
2023-01-18T23:55:10 < josuah> 22:15 < karlp> ok, so then, if I can read between the lines, kilograham was paid by arm to add multi drop swd support to openocd, _prior_ to the rp2040 being announced, but as soon as it came out, we knew what it had been for.
2023-01-18T23:55:14 < josuah> 22:16 < karlp> in the meantime, rpi people went, "fuck it, this is taking to long, we're going to do something else in the meantime"
2023-01-18T23:55:22 < josuah> zyp: other weird ARM part in mind?
2023-01-18T23:55:40 < zyp> if I'm reading it right, ADIv5.2 was released in 2013, that's when multidrop swd was introduced
2023-01-18T23:56:16 < zyp> anyway, multidrop swd is stupid
2023-01-18T23:57:02 < zyp> instead of having a separate DP per CPU, it'd suffice to have an AP each, hooked to a common DP
2023-01-18T23:58:19 < zyp> I assume the only reason they went the former route is because they were cheap and lazy and it was easier to glue two complete cpu blocks with independent debug infrastructure and all together than to have them share some of it
--- Day changed to tammi 19 2023
2023-01-19T00:00:07 < josuah> pile things on top of the others rather than maintaining the existing infrastructure, in order to save man-hours?
2023-01-19T00:00:46 < zyp> as for other weird parts, I heard recently about some TI parts that apparently only supports cJTAG
2023-01-19T00:00:49 < zyp> not SWD
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2023-01-19T00:01:31 < zyp> as far as I can tell, it's got a JTAG-DP behind some TI JTAG mux, behind a cJTAG to JTAG translator
2023-01-19T00:02:58 < josuah> oh!
2023-01-19T00:04:14 < josuah> I guess there are all sorts of animals in the ARM zoo too
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2023-01-19T00:41:50 < qyx> machinehum: if using zener for input protection and for such low currents, use low leakage schottky diodes to VDDA/VSSA
2023-01-19T01:02:46 < zyp> hmm, the wch «swd» protocol looks fairly easy
2023-01-19T01:03:23 < zyp> looks like it starts with a 0-bit, 7-bit DMI address, 32-bit write data, one bit to signal read or write
2023-01-19T01:03:36 < machinehum> It's being used for a power supply
2023-01-19T01:03:50 < machinehum> Simple unregulated
2023-01-19T01:04:00 < zyp> but I'm not sure about the response format
2023-01-19T01:04:28 < machinehum> I made something simlar, but at the same time quite different from what this guy did https://sound-au.com/project157.htm
2023-01-19T01:08:23 < zyp> hmm, actually
2023-01-19T01:08:42 < zyp> looks like there might be multiple different wire protocols
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2023-01-19T01:09:04 < zyp> wch-link appears to use the wrong one unless I run a chip detect first
2023-01-19T01:09:54 < qyx> machinehum: what input/output voltages?
2023-01-19T01:12:10 < machinehum> qyx: There's a 12V zener and 4.7V derived from the 12V supply
2023-01-19T01:12:21 < machinehum> It's an unregulated supply, input voltage is 120V
2023-01-19T01:12:48 < qyx> NCP785A no good?
2023-01-19T01:13:05 < qyx> now much in total are power resistors, zener, etc, etc?
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2023-01-19T01:13:54 < qyx> or LR645
2023-01-19T01:16:24 < qyx> but I would rather use some simple flyback controller in a buck topology for that, eg. AP3766
2023-01-19T01:16:42 < catphish_> this is fun https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0csHZveVvY
2023-01-19T01:20:25 < josuah> catphish_: very much! heat straight where you want it
2023-01-19T01:20:50 < machinehum> qyx: Yeah
2023-01-19T01:20:58 < machinehum> Those look alright, thanks for the link to the flyback controller
2023-01-19T01:21:16 < qyx> but I would not expect it to work on first try
2023-01-19T01:21:18 < machinehum> I don't need more than like 5mA so keeping it simple, but yeah those LDOs look nice
2023-01-19T01:21:30 < qyx> all offline thins I did in the past were debug-intensive
2023-01-19T01:21:37 < machinehum> I guess they're not LDOs anymore
2023-01-19T01:21:39 < machinehum> HDO
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2023-01-19T07:30:20 < Phantom> Hi there, does anyone have a code example for the STM32F103 for CAN transmit using HAL? I found some examples, but it do not appear to be transmitting anything... 
2023-01-19T07:54:36 < jpa-> machinehum: i'm fine with AVR, as long as you didn't use cube to program it
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2023-01-19T08:33:45 < machinehum> jpa-: lol
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2023-01-19T12:25:58 < qyx> Phantom: bus off probably
2023-01-19T12:26:37 < qyx> also mangy_dog is probably the only one using F1
2023-01-19T12:26:50 < qyx> and not with cube hal
2023-01-19T12:27:28 < ventYl> and not with CAN I guess
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2023-01-19T14:11:54 < kaki> is there such device that is connected in between in canbus and the device can tell which side is talking? and is there any strong usecases for such?
2023-01-19T14:23:34 < qyx> I have not seen any
2023-01-19T14:23:51 < qyx> probably two transceivers connected back to back?
2023-01-19T14:24:50 < jpa-> wouldn't it be known from addresses?
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2023-01-19T14:26:13 < ventYl> I guess, that the kaki's problem is, that he doesn't know which address belongs to which device
2023-01-19T14:27:15 < ventYl> kaki: either use what qyx proposes. or connect that particular part to something which will keep CAN alive and simply scan for CAN IDs and then do what jpa- suggests
2023-01-19T14:27:37 < ventYl> hm.. partial networking may make this approach hard
2023-01-19T14:27:48 < kaki> partial networking?
2023-01-19T14:28:01 < ventYl> "virtual CAN network"
2023-01-19T14:28:34 < ventYl> I assume you are reverse engineering your bimmer
2023-01-19T14:29:07 < ventYl> there, if the ECU can be woken up by CAN message, either you have shitload of CAN buses to/from each and every ECU, or you car is new enough to implement partial networking
2023-01-19T14:29:43 < ventYl> there, the SBC listens for wakeup frames with specific bitmask. And wakes up MCU only if wake-up frame masked by partial network mask contains non-zero payload
2023-01-19T14:29:56 < ventYl> thus, your ECU may not wake up if you disconnect it from the source of wake-up frames
2023-01-19T14:30:38 < kaki> yes
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2023-01-19T14:31:51 < ventYl> kaki: also, you can use UDS communication off diagnostic message to muzzle any ECU
2023-01-19T14:32:09 < ventYl> whatever normal messages vanish from CAN bus after you do that belong to that particular ECU
2023-01-19T14:32:20 < jpa-> i guess you could clamp a current transformer over the wires (one forwards, one backwards, to sense differential current), so a scope should show towards which end terminator power flows
2023-01-19T14:32:46 < jpa-> you'll need to interpret that in parallel with the voltage trace though, because negative voltage reverses the direction
2023-01-19T14:33:29 < ventYl> qyx: trashcan when?
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2023-01-19T14:41:17 < qyx> I would simply put a 10 R resistor in both lines and attach a scope to them
2023-01-19T14:41:49 < qyx> higher differe tial voltage is always on the driving side
2023-01-19T14:42:42 < zyp> that's kinda what I was thinking about doing on the wch shit to work out how the bidir signalling works
2023-01-19T14:43:33 < ventYl> zyp: OT: did you play with BL602 MCU? or was it karlp?
2023-01-19T14:43:33 < zyp> also pullups/downs to center the line when tristated
2023-01-19T14:43:40 < zyp> must be karlp
2023-01-19T14:44:27 < qyx> speaking of bl602
2023-01-19T14:45:12 < qyx> please enlighten me what's the intended use case of a M0+ with 512K of flash and 144K of sram
2023-01-19T14:45:23 < zyp> g0b1?
2023-01-19T14:45:25 < qyx> yes
2023-01-19T14:45:48 < qyx> crypto?
2023-01-19T14:45:55 < zyp> it seems a bit overkill for a lowend part
2023-01-19T14:47:17 < ventYl> much virtual machines
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2023-01-19T15:12:06 < karlp> ventYl: no, I'm looking at getting one or two BL parts, haven't entirely decided, was going to get one of these boards https://wiki.sipeed.com/hardware/en/maixzero/m0s/m0s.html but missed the first round of devices ont he sipeed store, they sold out
2023-01-19T15:12:30 < karlp> and was looking at a bl70x something too, but I really shouldn't waste more money on ewaste...
2023-01-19T15:13:42 < karlp> josuah: the wch openocd toolchain is provided binary by MounRiver studios, and they provide a gpl source tarball on request.  it has never been submitted upstream, so it's disingenuous to say that it was refused by upstream.
2023-01-19T15:14:31 < karlp> now, in it's current state, upstream would absoltuely refuse it, as they hacked support in wildly acrss the tree, with a pile of weird global variables, and it doesn't remotely follow existing style, and it's buggy, but... upstream didn't _refuse_ it.
2023-01-19T15:15:34 < ventYl> karlp: I wonder how much system vs. user mode and ISR processing differs on RV32E parts compared to Cortex-Ms
2023-01-19T15:15:58 < ventYl> and how much BL602 is broken for regular development. If I will actually try to do something with it, or donate it to someone else
2023-01-19T15:16:19 < karlp> zyp: where did you find the wire examples for wch swd?
2023-01-19T15:16:34 < karlp> the wchlink stuff does look like it mostly jsut handles sending DMI ops
2023-01-19T15:18:44 < zyp> karlp, I captured them myself last night :)
2023-01-19T15:19:03 < karlp> zyp: ahh, goodo :)
2023-01-19T15:19:18 < zyp> by issuing my own DMI ops directly to the usb interface
2023-01-19T15:19:34 < karlp> I didn't get very far with my probing, it was intefering with the debugger, and I wasn't trusting the results entirely.
2023-01-19T15:19:54 < karlp> I also keep telling myself, "no, it might be intersting, but I should refuse to do this until wch behaves properly..."
2023-01-19T15:20:46 < karlp> alrge flash/sram on m0s I expect is for shit like network copro for matter....
2023-01-19T15:40:01 < karlp> also, soundsd like people like zyp can probably reverse engineer this stuff _far_ faster than me...
2023-01-19T15:40:25 < karlp> were you poking the DMI ops that you can see in the mrs openocd sources?
2023-01-19T15:40:41 < zyp> no, the third party one
2023-01-19T15:40:42 < karlp> what did you do to get the wch-link initialized? 
2023-01-19T15:40:47 < karlp> which third party one?
2023-01-19T15:41:05 < zyp> https://github.com/fxsheep/openocd_wchlink-rv/
2023-01-19T15:41:25 < zyp> https://github.com/fxsheep/openocd_wchlink-rv/commit/7e1cecc4ac533c41a999489d6eae7d4fe22c9c9b
2023-01-19T15:41:59 < zyp> search for wdata to find the shit that's getting sent
2023-01-19T15:42:53 < zyp> boils down to something like this: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/jJ27J
2023-01-19T15:43:09 < karlp> they say they got that by reverse engineering the mrs openocd, which they claim is violating gpl.  (it's not)
2023-01-19T15:43:22 < karlp> they're not making clear they have a source offer, but they've always responded to requests for source.
2023-01-19T15:43:31 < karlp> they're violating _gcc_ gpl of course...
2023-01-19T15:43:36 < karlp> and they keep refusing that.
2023-01-19T15:45:53 < karlp> that fxsheep dmiop is pretty similar to https://github.com/karlp/openocd-hacks/blob/mrs-wch-riscv-221010/src/jtag/drivers/wlink.c#L575
2023-01-19T15:46:18 < zyp> yeah, same same
2023-01-19T15:47:10 < zyp> as far as I can tell, first byte is always 0x81 to indicate start of command, second byte is command, third byte is payload length and remaining shit is payload
2023-01-19T15:48:03 < karlp> I'd still rather have documents on the wire level, so that the wchlink can be completely bypassed.
2023-01-19T15:48:18 < karlp> but yes, having wchlink layer clean is still useful :)
2023-01-19T15:48:23 < zyp> indeed
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2023-01-19T15:49:25 < zyp> I just started by working that out so I can drive the wchlink with arbitrary dmi read/writes while logging the wire signals
2023-01-19T15:49:55 < karlp> true, it's of course the only sane way of working out the wire layer :)
2023-01-19T15:50:05 < karlp> good, I can leave this with you then...
2023-01-19T15:50:21 < zyp> haha
2023-01-19T15:50:40 < zyp> not sure how much patience I'll have for it
2023-01-19T15:50:48 < karlp> my nearterm plans are a) some more spi experiments, hopefully using libopencm3 on the other side, so I can maybe fixup spi-v3 for people there,
2023-01-19T15:51:23 < karlp> b) considering reversing the flash/IAP blob they provide, I believe it's just wrapper cruft anyway.
2023-01-19T15:52:04 < zyp> hmm, your wlink.c have more commands that the other code doesn't
2023-01-19T15:52:05 < karlp> c) using spi to actually make my ws2812-2020c on my test board work...
2023-01-19T15:52:22 < karlp> "mine" is the MRS code gpl tarball, latest 1.60 release
2023-01-19T15:52:45 < karlp> I've updated it as cleanly as I can with git patches rather than just a hard dump of the entire tree.
2023-01-19T15:53:37 < karlp> you can folllow the branch history, but it's only as good as MRS have provided...
2023-01-19T16:02:13 -!- catphish_ [~charlie@user/catphish] has joined ##stm32
2023-01-19T16:03:56 < karlp> I should try and patch https://github.com/fxsheep/openocd_wchlink-rv/commit/bf84ea71e30f83fcdd3914244c476528aa3ddc24 into the mrs sources, see if it fixes my "have to quit and restart between every flash"
2023-01-19T16:14:26 < Mangy_Dog> https://twitter.com/MD_Builds/status/1616076359994073095
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2023-01-19T16:28:48 < catphish_> i tested my new car firmware today, acceleration works well, but electronic braking is a steaming pile of garbage :(
2023-01-19T16:30:57 < catphish_> turns out i don't really know how to control a generator with an inverter properly
2023-01-19T16:36:27 < jpa-> isn't it just slipping the opposite way?
2023-01-19T16:36:33 < ventYl> do you follow ISO-26262 in your controller implementation? :)
2023-01-19T16:36:51 < ventYl> you don't want to end up in newspaper doing unintended acceleration boarding ferry as Tesla did recently :)
2023-01-19T16:37:00 < jpa-> i.e. if you slip at +5% to accelerate, slip at -5% to decelerate
2023-01-19T16:37:54 < jpa-> why not? isn't ending up in news the highest life goal of modern people?
2023-01-19T16:39:17 < ventYl> not if the article is accompanied by the photo of dissected Tesla after major fire
2023-01-19T16:48:47 < catphish_> jpa-: yes it is just slipping the other way, and that works, the problem though is controlling voltage in that situation
2023-01-19T16:49:37 < catphish_> doing +5% slip accelerates, and it's easy to use a PID in order to set the voltage to achieve a desired current
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2023-01-19T16:51:21 < zyp> now I got reminded by that time I fucked up the idle valve control of my old car
2023-01-19T16:51:44 < catphish_> but... when you set -5% slip, hell breaks loose
2023-01-19T16:51:52 < BrainDamage> do you meant the supply rail's voltage? don't the batteries provide huge inertia for that?
2023-01-19T16:52:07 < ventYl> idle valve, sounds like K(E)-Jetronic
2023-01-19T16:52:08 -!- Streaker [~Streaker@user/streaker] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
2023-01-19T16:52:24 < catphish_> the voltage from the motor is less than the battery voltage, so i'm actually running a boost-rectifier
2023-01-19T16:52:39 < zyp> ventYl, hmm, might be, don't remember exactly
2023-01-19T16:52:42 < catphish_> BrainDamage: no, the *AC* voltage
2023-01-19T16:52:49 < ventYl> zyp: what car? brick-shaped volvo?
2023-01-19T16:52:53 < zyp> yep
2023-01-19T16:53:18 < ventYl> mechanical fuel injected system converted to multipoint EFI :)
2023-01-19T16:53:20 < zyp> ah, I think it was lh-jetronic
2023-01-19T16:53:25 < catphish_> so, if the motor is rotating at 25Hz, it'll be outputting 50% of its rated voltage, ie 50% of battery voltage
2023-01-19T16:53:42 < catphish_> the job of the inverter becomes converting that low voltage 3 phase to high voltage DC
2023-01-19T16:54:07 < zyp> I converted it to megasquirt around 14 years ago
2023-01-19T16:54:32 < ventYl> zyp: LH has electrically controller injectors, KE has mechanic high-pressure injectors
2023-01-19T16:54:40 < ventYl> controlled*
2023-01-19T16:54:49 < zyp> it was electric, LH 2.4 IIRC
2023-01-19T16:55:21 < ventYl> yeah, I have 5-cyl KE, not many systems out there can work with this setup
2023-01-19T16:55:26 < ventYl> IIRC, megasquirt can't
2023-01-19T17:01:56 < benishor> finally made my first kbd customization
2023-01-19T17:01:58 < benishor> https://photos.app.goo.gl/ffpeddmzJFojcdk6A
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2023-01-19T17:07:06 < karlp> what am I even looking at?
2023-01-19T18:03:27 < qyx> https://openwrt.org/toh/ubiquiti/edgerouter_x_er-x_ka
2023-01-19T18:03:32 < qyx> anyone tried this one?
2023-01-19T18:06:26 < lemmi> i must have about 10 or so of those running 
2023-01-19T18:06:38 < lemmi> they were cheap to get for a while
2023-01-19T18:06:44 < josuah> <karlp> upstream didn't _refuse_ it.
2023-01-19T18:06:45 < josuah> thank you for the correction
2023-01-19T18:07:34 < qyx> lemmi: with openwrt?
2023-01-19T18:07:43 < lemmi> qyx: yep
2023-01-19T18:07:58 < qyx> oh, great
2023-01-19T18:08:02 < qyx> I can get it for about 80€
2023-01-19T18:08:12 < qyx> ER4 is 160€, weird
2023-01-19T18:08:32 < qyx> ER-X-SFP is 82.50 €
2023-01-19T18:08:37 < lemmi> omg
2023-01-19T18:08:41 < josuah> I misinterpreted https://github.com/fxsheep/openocd_wchlink-rv/issues/1#issuecomment-1328865011
2023-01-19T18:08:42 < lemmi> i got mine for about 20
2023-01-19T18:08:47 < qyx> huh
2023-01-19T18:09:17 < lemmi> if you don't need 5 ports, you can search for a xiaomi mii 4a. same chip, but trades 2 ports for wifi
2023-01-19T18:09:43 < josuah> do you use the ubiquiti web UI or only the hardware?
2023-01-19T18:10:02 < lemmi> all openwrt
2023-01-19T18:10:33 < qyx> I need it to go to 19" rack, so ubnt is better suited
2023-01-19T18:10:36 < qyx> SFP works too?
2023-01-19T18:11:16 < lemmi> i think the sfp port works since openwrt 21
2023-01-19T18:11:26 < qyx> cool, thanks
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2023-01-19T18:12:32 < qyx> don't you know idle power consumption by any chance?
2023-01-19T18:12:53 < josuah> lemmi: nice!
2023-01-19T18:13:07 < lemmi> qyx: i measured about 1W idle
2023-01-19T18:13:08 < josuah> ah sorry you said it just above
2023-01-19T18:14:05 < lemmi> i think it was about 4W full load (wireguard tunnels, almost all ports connected)
2023-01-19T18:15:05 < lemmi> but i suggest you ask in #openwrt in oftc. there might be better or cheaper options. 80€ is a lot for that hardware
2023-01-19T18:15:43 < qyx> I can't find anything cheaper in local shops, even mikrotiks are expensive now
2023-01-19T18:16:01 < qyx> and they are a pain to convert them to openwrt religion
2023-01-19T18:16:39 < lemmi> i bought mine used or marked as broken. all of them just needed to be flashed again via tftp and worked
2023-01-19T18:16:41 < qyx> for $work, so meh
2023-01-19T18:16:54 < qyx> hm
2023-01-19T18:17:02 < lemmi> still. might be worth to ask around
2023-01-19T18:18:16 < lemmi> just as a note: the cpu is connected via 1gbps to a switch chip. the 5 external ports are connected to that switch aswell. this thing works very well as switch and ok-ish as a router
2023-01-19T18:18:50 < karlp> that's pretty standard for soho stuff.
2023-01-19T18:18:53 < lemmi> 150-250mbps wireguard (depends on how multiple streams are distributed over the cpu cores)
2023-01-19T18:19:11 < lemmi> yes it is. but i thought it worth mentioning
2023-01-19T18:19:17 < qyx> I need like 2 kbps
2023-01-19T18:34:12 < zyp> qyx, ER4 is a whole different beast than ER-X
2023-01-19T18:35:24 < zyp> I was planning to get an ER4 before I decided on the UDM-Pro instead
2023-01-19T18:43:35 < lemmi> ER4 is pretty great, too. but not cheap
2023-01-19T18:46:31 < ventYl> I am also looking for something new
2023-01-19T18:46:40 < ventYl> as mikrotiks basically lost openwrt support
2023-01-19T18:46:48 < lemmi> did they?
2023-01-19T18:47:14 < ventYl> there's this hassle about routerboot vs. jffs or spiffs, or what
2023-01-19T18:47:40 < ventYl> so many mikrotiks were dropped after lede merged back into openwrt
2023-01-19T18:48:07 < lemmi> i thought they were even working on the RB5009
2023-01-19T18:48:23 < ventYl> aaand 19.0something, which is the last, which supports mine, has some kind of bug in wireless stack, so the router won't change uplink speed on wireless above the lowest available
2023-01-19T18:48:54 < ventYl> so in practice you get like 1mb/s download, while maintaining 150+mb/s upload
2023-01-19T18:49:07 < lemmi> :|
2023-01-19T18:49:36 < ventYl> that's definitely a regression and not a hardware problem, but I cannot find out the root cause
2023-01-19T18:58:02 < qyx> https://openwrt.org/toh/mikrotik/rb760igs
2023-01-19T18:58:07 < qyx> same hardware, supported as well
2023-01-19T18:58:09 < qyx> a bit cheaper
2023-01-19T18:58:47 < lemmi> less flash though
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2023-01-19T20:30:17 < PhantomCell> Hi there. Does anyone here knows stuff about canbus? It do not send the ack...
2023-01-19T20:31:19 -!- Posterdati [~Posterdat@user/Posterdati] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
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2023-01-19T20:54:30 < fenugrec> PhantomCell you'll have to ask a clearer question
2023-01-19T20:59:06 < PhantomCell> If I send data to the stm32, it do not ack the data as it is supposed to do by specs. Tx just do not work at all.. nothing is outputted as shown by the scope
2023-01-19T21:00:02 < fenugrec> you will need 2 nodes on a CAN bus, unless you configure the stm32 CAN periph in loopback / test mode.
2023-01-19T21:00:42 < fenugrec> if your stm32 has the basic CAN periph, see https://github.com/candle-usb/candleLight_fw/blob/master/src/can.c for known-working code
2023-01-19T21:00:59 < PhantomCell> I do have 2 nodes. The microchip cananalyser and the stm32
2023-01-19T21:01:30 < fenugrec> don't forget to set AF mode for the gpio pins
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2023-01-19T21:16:42 < PhantomCell> Af mode?
2023-01-19T21:17:26 < PhantomCell> I use cubeide
2023-01-19T21:21:24 -!- Linux_Kerio [~Linux_Ker@chello085216193138.chello.sk] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
2023-01-19T21:28:17 < fenugrec> alternate function
2023-01-19T21:33:09 -!- PhantomCell [~androirc@user/phantom] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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2023-01-19T21:40:15 < qyx> that's the thing with cube, you don't have a clue of how stm32 works when you are using cube
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2023-01-19T22:34:27 < zyp> karlp, I hooked up the scope instead of the LA to the wch-link, now everything looks fairly wtf :)
2023-01-19T22:34:56 < zyp> first of all, what's up with these voltages? https://bin.jvnv.net/file/XXhOL.png
2023-01-19T22:37:46 < zyp> and second, what's going on here? https://bin.jvnv.net/file/C6xhs.png
2023-01-19T22:38:04 < zyp> cursors marks the section between DMI address and write data
2023-01-19T22:38:24 < zyp> there's 7 clocks and some weird stuff going on
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2023-01-19T22:40:40 < Laurence_b> https://i.redd.it/0zmo9h8wy8f61.jpg
2023-01-19T22:41:31 < zyp> for a read, the same section looks like this: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/4Jz5J.png
2023-01-19T22:45:06 < zyp> looks like the 7 cycles are 00 for read or 11 for write, hi-z, 0 from target, hi-z, 0 from wch-link, hi-z
2023-01-19T22:45:57 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/pic/media%2FFkdTD8cXoAEozSI.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
2023-01-19T22:46:23 < zyp> Laurence_b, fuck off
2023-01-19T22:48:22 < specing> remember how some claimed that CERN would produce a black hole? Ha
2023-01-19T22:56:33 < mawk> I have a bunch of stm32 NFC dev kits
2023-01-19T22:56:37 < mawk> and a nrf52840 nfc dev board too
2023-01-19T22:56:41 < mawk> I want to emulate a mifare classic tag
2023-01-19T22:56:47 < mawk> can I do it with any of these things
2023-01-19T22:56:53 < zyp> unlikely
2023-01-19T22:57:04 < zyp> IIRC classic got some weird proprietary crypto
2023-01-19T22:57:13 < qyx> broken long ago
2023-01-19T22:57:17 < zyp> most non-nxp shit can't even read it
2023-01-19T22:57:48 < qyx> we used mifare classic a lot for all things, pub transport, student IDs, etc.
2023-01-19T22:58:06 < qyx> until one .sk company broke the crypto allowing to read/clone/etc.
2023-01-19T22:58:29 < qyx> then they began to migrate to desfire
2023-01-19T22:58:42 < qyx> but it was back in 2010 or so iirc
2023-01-19T22:58:48 < qyx> or even sooner
2023-01-19T22:59:48 < qyx> I am not really sure if those slovakians were the first to broke it
2023-01-19T23:00:13 < qyx> https://hackaday.com/2008/01/01/24c3-mifare-crypto1-rfid-completely-broken/
2023-01-19T23:01:57 < qyx> https://nethemba.com/resources/mifare-classic-slides.pdf
2023-01-19T23:03:14 < qyx> oh the dutches were the first, they even mention that
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2023-01-19T23:45:20 < aandrew> mawk: yeah I'm working on an nrf5340 proposal
2023-01-19T23:45:31 < aandrew> mifare is 13MHz IIRC
2023-01-19T23:46:01 < aandrew> I wonder if it can do mifare
2023-01-19T23:46:56 < aandrew> it should be possible: https://devzone.nordicsemi.com/f/nordic-q-a/30225/mifare-desfire
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--- Day changed pe tammi 20 2023
2023-01-20T00:10:02 < karlp> gah, ok, getting this RWX permissions shit again now.
2023-01-20T00:18:20 -!- hexo__ [~hexo@user/hexo] has joined ##stm32
2023-01-20T00:39:55 < karlp> look at this fucking mess.
2023-01-20T00:39:57 < karlp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/e9NP4/IMG_20230119_223231.jpg
2023-01-20T00:40:12 < karlp> who came up with this shit
2023-01-20T00:41:03 < Steffanx-> Could be worse..
2023-01-20T00:42:07 < Steffanx-> The desk is a little dusty/dirty though 
2023-01-20T00:42:09 < karlp> yarh, if I fix up the fw for the red board, it will be dfu replaceable.
2023-01-20T00:42:36 < karlp> it's got dapboot on it so far, but need to adjust the rest of it, then I can drop the whiteboard.
2023-01-20T00:43:24 < karlp> that stupid red board I didn't put a single ground test point on it...
2023-01-20T00:43:59 < karlp> so... I guess next task is a dfu payload that can ... do some spi shit too...
2023-01-20T00:46:16 < karlp> lol, last time I opened this project, I was using g-a-e 5.3, 2016q1.
2023-01-20T00:46:23 < zyp> :D
2023-01-20T00:47:28 -!- kaki [~kaki@188-67-150-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##stm32
2023-01-20T00:47:57 < karlp> oh boi....
2023-01-20T00:48:03 < karlp> it's all getting daunting again.
2023-01-20T00:52:01 < kaki> what is getting daunting?
2023-01-20T00:52:12 < karlp> the amount of work required
2023-01-20T00:52:47 < kaki> to?
2023-01-20T00:53:41 < zyp> succeed
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2023-01-20T00:55:31 < kaki> yes
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2023-01-20T01:02:59 < Phantom> <qyx> Phantom: bus off probably   <=== yeah was missing the bus start or whatever... about 10 code examples and none had them. That one that looked bad on github was the right one!
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2023-01-20T02:15:27 < karlp> fucking, ok, l1 back to ch58x, spi master works, but dfu is... not working properly. boooo.
2023-01-20T02:15:40 < karlp> I know I had this working in the past. lame....
2023-01-20T02:24:01 < karlp> dfu-util: Lost device after RESET?
2023-01-20T02:24:02 < josuah> karlp: something I have seen for another project: https://paste.josuah.net/electronics/devboard_test_automation_rack.png
2023-01-20T02:24:06 < karlp> blah. all out of time for today
2023-01-20T02:24:39 < karlp> josuah: yes... that's common, but requires custom ahrdware for that "reset controller"
2023-01-20T02:24:48 < karlp> I built usb hubs that let me power cycle eahc port individualy instead.
2023-01-20T02:25:15 < josuah> I think I remember the PCB posted on that chan
2023-01-20T02:25:35 < josuah> there is also the practical layout of the various devboards, taped on an empty cardboard hiding all the cables
2023-01-20T02:26:11 < josuah> it takes quite some room though
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2023-01-20T02:28:14 < karlp> yes....?
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2023-01-20T02:30:45 < ventYl> automotive these days swings like a pendulum between two extremes: "we are just a bunch of incompetent morons" and "we are great and we are gonna make it"
2023-01-20T02:32:04 < kaki> should I apply for a jubb in automotive?
2023-01-20T02:32:09 < josuah> most of my furniture are custom and cardboard already anyway
2023-01-20T02:32:23 < ventYl> kaki: do you have stable cocaine dealer?
2023-01-20T02:32:48 < kaki> ah.. do I get one by applying to a jubb in automotive?
2023-01-20T02:32:49 < josuah> ventYl: do you mean automotive as the branch of industry or self-motive?
2023-01-20T02:32:59 < ventYl> kaki: nope, but you will probably need one
2023-01-20T02:33:23 < ventYl> josuah: I mean automotive as automotive. those who make cars.
2023-01-20T02:33:47 < josuah> kaki: catphish_'s method: step 1: build a car
2023-01-20T02:34:14 < josuah> ventYl: thank you, my English is not so polished
2023-01-20T02:34:16 < kaki> 2: plow some snow?
2023-01-20T02:34:44 < kaki> there was this automotive genius in 80s that did a lot of cocaine
2023-01-20T02:34:44 < josuah> kaki: there is no step 2, if you do step 1 you are ready having a job in automotive :P
2023-01-20T02:34:50 < catphish_> step 2 should involve hookers really
2023-01-20T02:34:58 < ventYl> and blackjack
2023-01-20T02:35:06 < ventYl> hookers and blackjack
2023-01-20T02:35:11 < kaki> his vision was to make a car from stainless steel
2023-01-20T02:35:53 < josuah> I'll make a cardboard car. the carcar
2023-01-20T02:36:01 < josuah> it will be flammable and that is how you turn the engine on
2023-01-20T02:36:59 < ventYl> current state of affairs is, that "International System Safety Society" which seem to be a legit international organization, is openly mocking carmakers for being idiots :)
2023-01-20T02:37:18 < kaki> they are restarting delorean brand making cars out of just plain old steel. Like everybody else. Just another boring car.
2023-01-20T02:38:36 < catphish_> my car is made from aluminium, fibreglass and electrons :)
2023-01-20T02:38:48 < kaki> like it should
2023-01-20T02:39:19 < ventYl> nevermind, gn
2023-01-20T02:39:21 < catphish_> but i can't work out how to make a PID loop that can control voltage during regenerative braking
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2023-01-20T02:46:13 < josuah> karlp: if that is not something confidential/private, may I ask which project are you working on with this ch58x?
2023-01-20T02:47:50 < BrainDamage> catphish_: do you have encoder position sensing?
2023-01-20T02:49:36 < catphish_> BrainDamage: yes
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2023-01-20T02:50:31 < BrainDamage> does the voltage settles after the acceleration stops jerking, or does it keep jerking due to the AC voltage spiking
2023-01-20T02:53:10 < catphish_> it varies, but essentially the problem is that when the motor is acting as a generator, current is not proportional to inverter AC voltage
2023-01-20T02:53:32 < catphish_> when current is too high, reducing voltage doesn't necessarily reduce current
2023-01-20T02:53:58 < kaki> you need to go negative
2023-01-20T02:54:17 < catphish_> well i thought that, but i don't think life is so simple
2023-01-20T02:54:27 < catphish_> because too much voltage will also increase current
2023-01-20T02:54:53 < catphish_> i'm thinking if i look at real power i might get a more useful metric
2023-01-20T02:56:42 < kaki> you need to control the induced current in rotor?
2023-01-20T02:58:09 < catphish_> not really, my goal is just to set the desired stator current
2023-01-20T02:58:51 < catphish_> during forward operation, this is simple, more voltage = more current, a PID can set the current perfectly
2023-01-20T02:59:10 < catphish_> but during generating, the relationship seems inverted
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2023-01-20T02:59:54 < catphish_> but it's not that simple, because i'm quite sure it'll be more like a V curve, where too little OR too much voltage will cause useless current to flow
2023-01-20T03:00:10 < catphish_> so a PID doesn't know which direction to move
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2023-01-20T03:02:56 < catphish_> i *think* if i multiply current by voltage, i will get a real power, if i then divide that by rms voltage i will get a signed current, this might be more useful
2023-01-20T03:59:43 < aandrew> why isn't your current signal signed?
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2023-01-20T10:15:26 < qyx> whoa TIL Cisco IE2000
2023-01-20T10:16:46 < qyx> any reason for using SC-APC for "common" point-to-point single mode FO?
2023-01-20T10:17:38 < zyp> no, APC is usually to limit reflections in a point-to-multipoint PON setup
2023-01-20T10:18:04 < jpa-> i read that as "F0" and though that a fiber link is a bit much for STM32F0 :)
2023-01-20T10:18:11 < zyp> not that I've worked with fiber a lot, but I've never seen APC outside of PON
2023-01-20T10:18:25 < qyx> I just see it
2023-01-20T10:18:28 < qyx> hence I am asking
2023-01-20T10:18:55 < qyx> also that cisco has SFP ports and yet they used a dedicated FO-ethernet converter
2023-01-20T10:20:19 < qyx> jpa-: !!!!111 I'll need to do STP on STM32
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2023-01-20T11:06:10 < catphish_> aandrew: it's not that simple, AC current isn't signed, it always goes both ways
2023-01-20T11:06:47 < catphish_> my current signal *is* signed, but that's not immediately useful
2023-01-20T11:10:12 < jpa-> yeah, usually you'd have the AC current & voltage as a complex vector in the rotating frame
2023-01-20T11:10:34 < jpa-> but there may be some way to avoid that for your case
2023-01-20T11:15:24 < BrainDamage> when you have a reference signal for the phasor, then ac current sign becomes meaningful as a relative phase
2023-01-20T11:18:45  * karlp 's fail faq #n: copying init code from a differnet family and not using the AF numbers for the gpios on the new family...
2023-01-20T11:19:06 < karlp> josuah: ch58x is just for fun.
2023-01-20T11:19:50 < karlp> josuah: https://github.com/karlp/veittur-p1-ble is the current target, though, realistically, an esp32 would have been a better choice :)
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2023-01-20T11:46:11 < catphish_> i've written an algorithm to test. it multiplies each phase current by its voltage and adds them up to get real power, it then divides real power by the RMS voltage to get a number i'm calling "real current"
2023-01-20T11:46:35 < catphish_> i *think* this might be what i should be using in my PID
2023-01-20T11:47:39 < jpa-> why not just traditional FOC?
2023-01-20T11:47:56 < karlp> NIH
2023-01-20T11:48:12 < jpa-> that's a fine reason :)
2023-01-20T11:52:37 < catphish_> jpa-: i'd use FOC in an instant if i could make it work
2023-01-20T11:52:47 < catphish_> FOC is hard, current PID is easy
2023-01-20T11:53:36 < catphish_> to the best of my knowledge there are no open source FOC controllers
2023-01-20T11:53:58 < catphish_> i know how it *should* work, but i've never been able to do it
2023-01-20T11:54:00 < jpa-> huh? to my knowledge world is full of them
2023-01-20T11:54:09 < jpa-> FOC is just PID with complex numbers in rotating reference frame
2023-01-20T11:56:11 < catphish_> jpa-: yes, it is, the hard part is knowing the angle of rotation of the rotor field
2023-01-20T11:56:36 < catphish_> if you knew that, FOC would be trivial, but calculating it is nontrivial
2023-01-20T11:57:32 < jpa-> i admit i haven't done anything with induction motors, but for sensorless BLDC it is readily apparent from the back-emf voltage
2023-01-20T12:00:21 < catphish_> i looked at this a long time ago, did some maths and got it half working
2023-01-20T12:01:18 < catphish_> maybe i will read again https://hal.science/hal-01322795/document
2023-01-20T12:03:13 < catphish_> this might be simple if i was better at this type of maths
2023-01-20T12:04:57 < catphish_> ah, here, the best information i ever found was this implementation from analog http://smd.hu/Data/Analog/DSP/Motorcontrol/application/CONTROL/FLUX
2023-01-20T12:05:12 < catphish_> but yeah, it never worked when i tried to do it
2023-01-20T12:06:20 < catphish_> the core of this is you integrate back EMF and that gives you an estimate of flux, but i never got it accurate enough to be useful
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2023-01-20T12:08:28 < jpa-> i wonder why - even from the graphs it appears that the back EMF voltage is always 90° from the flux orientation
2023-01-20T12:09:53 < catphish_> i think one problem one is that you have *two* flux orientations, back EMF will be the interaction of the two
2023-01-20T12:10:02 < jpa-> what is the second one?
2023-01-20T12:10:05 < BrainDamage> isn't it a mess of various coordinate transform matrix?
2023-01-20T12:10:38 < catphish_> jpa-: rotor flux and stator flux
2023-01-20T12:11:00 < catphish_> you can't just turn off the stator and measure the back EMF
2023-01-20T12:11:00 < jpa-> stator flux = stator currents, so that should be a known factor
2023-01-20T12:11:14 < catphish_> hmm perhaps that's true
2023-01-20T12:11:15 < josuah> karlp: it is looking very nice
2023-01-20T12:11:26 < jpa-> for low inductance / low impedance stators, stator voltage is almost equivalent to back EMF
2023-01-20T12:11:32 < catphish_> jpa-: what you're saying makes perfect sense to me, but clearly isn't not that easy
2023-01-20T12:12:07 < jpa-> for more accuracy, you need to do    back_emf = stator_voltages - stator_current * stator_resistance - derivative_of_stator_current * stator_inductance
2023-01-20T12:12:12 < catphish_> it's definitely necessary to integrate back EMF
2023-01-20T12:12:22 < catphish_> i don't recall why
2023-01-20T12:13:08 < jpa-> maybe it is needed if you didn't have the rotor encoder
2023-01-20T12:13:55 < jpa-> because without rotor encoder, integrating back EMF to determine the flux strength (not just orientation) would be the only way to determine actual rotor speed
2023-01-20T12:13:56 < catphish_> this paper says measuring shaft angle makes it easier
2023-01-20T12:14:16 < catphish_> http://smd.hu/Data/Analog/DSP/Motorcontrol/application/CONTROL/FLUX explains this all very well
2023-01-20T12:15:57 < karlp> can't have been very well, you couldn' get it to work right? ;)
2023-01-20T12:16:13 < BrainDamage> catphish: can't you add hall sensors, at least to double check the measured field vs your espected one?
2023-01-20T12:18:04 < jpa-> i hate how those papers unnecessarily spin everything as two equations, when you can just have a single complex number
2023-01-20T12:19:45 < jpa-> i do agree that integrating a spinning vector will offset it by 90°, but that is a bit uselessly complex way to do so :)
2023-01-20T12:21:46 < catphish_> anyway, the answer to the originl question is... i didn't do it because it's hard and i don't understand how
2023-01-20T12:21:52 < jpa-> :)
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2023-01-20T14:24:06 < qyx> TIL how digital caliper works
2023-01-20T14:26:06 < fridericus> Hey everyone! Hope I don't bother. Is it ok if I ask a quick question about the I2S implementation of the STM32F4xx?
2023-01-20T14:26:32 < zyp> sure
2023-01-20T14:26:44 < benishor> qyx: capacitive?
2023-01-20T14:26:56 < benishor> fridericus: what seems to be the problem?
2023-01-20T14:28:09 < fridericus> Okay. Basically my mems mic transmits the pcm signal i need in 24 bits. As the I2S only gives you a uint16_t buffer, my question is if the two shorts are in the correct order or in reverse?
2023-01-20T14:29:07 < fridericus> I looked through the  documentation of the HAL but it is not clearly stated there
2023-01-20T14:33:20 < fridericus> I use the DMA by the way, if that is important
2023-01-20T14:33:59 < catphish_> so here's where my algorithm idea falls apart: 
2023-01-20T14:33:59 < catphish_> Post by catphish » Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:32 pm
2023-01-20T14:33:59 < catphish_>     Pete9008 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:15 pm
2023-01-20T14:33:59 < catphish_>     That looks like it should work, interested to hear how you get on. The more I think about it the more I'm sure that the discontinuity in the current when the sign changed can't have been helping at all. I'd be inclined to use the real power as the input to the control loop all the time; real power is what makes torque, imaginary power just warms up the wires! 
2023-01-20T14:34:01 < catphish_> There is one question stuck in my head. What on earth should this look like when the car is rolling backwards, we apply positive torque, and the car slows to a stop and then starts moving forwards? Ideally current and torque will remain constant, but real power will have to pass through zero at some point :(
2023-01-20T14:34:07 < catphish_> oops
2023-01-20T14:34:16 < catphish_> but yeah, the last part
2023-01-20T14:34:33 < catphish_> we apply positive torque, and the car slows to a stop and then starts moving forwards? Ideally current and torque will remain constant, but real power will have to pass through zero at some point
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2023-01-20T14:41:46 < BrainDamage> the covention for source/sink of power has to work, or you'd be violating conservation of energy
2023-01-20T14:43:40 < zyp> catphish_, think quadrants
2023-01-20T14:44:37 < BrainDamage> also, for the car to stop the angular frequency would become 0, so 0 BEMF
2023-01-20T14:45:51 < zyp> catphish_, when voltage and current have the same sign, you're turning electrical power into mechanical
2023-01-20T14:46:04 < zyp> when they've got opposite signs, you're turning mechanical power into electrical
2023-01-20T14:46:24 < catphish> i think i may be looking at this backwards by assuming voltage is always positive, i think the maths may work better if i allow voltage to become negative
2023-01-20T14:46:46 < zyp> so yeah, when you have positive torque, you've got positive current
2023-01-20T14:47:03 < zyp> if you're decelerating with positive torque, you've got negative voltage
2023-01-20T14:47:20 < zyp> which decreases with the speed
2023-01-20T14:47:22 < catphish_> yes yes yes
2023-01-20T14:47:41 < zyp> I mean, goes towards zero
2023-01-20T14:47:41 < catphish_> it's the voltage that passes through zero
2023-01-20T14:47:46 < zyp> exactly
2023-01-20T14:57:55 < karlp> fucking hell, I've been trying to get asyncio python to handle an exception in a thread spawned by an asyncio task, and in my simpliified setups, I can get it working a couple of different ways.
2023-01-20T14:58:19 < karlp> but the real one uses an async context manager, and it's just too many fucking layers for my smooth brane.
2023-01-20T14:58:31 < karlp> why can't vendors just give out proper code.
2023-01-20T14:59:17 < zyp> hmm, I'd expect that to just work.
2023-01-20T14:59:20 < zyp> …
2023-01-20T15:01:02 < karlp> eyah, I'm going to have to make more test cases, 
2023-01-20T15:02:31 < karlp> https://gist.github.com/karlp/3a277c57feac2c924b851afbf395e4e8#file-kt-asyncio-exceptions-py all work, (except alt2, but that's ok, I've got two styles that work)
2023-01-20T15:02:45 < karlp> going to make n async context manager and see how to make it explode too now.
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2023-01-20T15:44:13 < zyp> ah, right, you're talking about something more like a background thread, not just shit like run_in_executor()
2023-01-20T16:05:19 < catphish> my broken OLED display works again this morning, bad power supply and a polyfuse maybe
2023-01-20T16:06:22 < catphish> i won't embed this one in hot melt glue
2023-01-20T16:18:19 < karlp> yeah, I can't figure out if this is even possible. the defined API i need to meet is like this: https://bleak.readthedocs.io/en/latest/api/scanner.html#starting-and-stopping
2023-01-20T16:18:28 < karlp> and start() launches a background thread.
2023-01-20T16:18:58 < karlp> I just don't see anyway of making the outer layer ever aware of anything.
2023-01-20T16:19:21 < karlp> I guess, as this is explicitly an asyncio library, I could make another coro inside start perhaps.
2023-01-20T16:19:26 < karlp> starts sounding fucking dumb though
2023-01-20T16:24:43 < zyp> hmm, I don't see anywhere obvious to raise the exception
2023-01-20T16:26:43 < zyp> or depending on how you do intercom between the threads, you could have start wait for a successful start
2023-01-20T16:27:25 < karlp> lol, ok, the winrt backend does exactly what I started to think,
2023-01-20T16:27:43 < aandrew> catphish: ah yes, you're right; I was thinking more of current in/out of the DC link
2023-01-20T16:27:55 < karlp> .start() makes it's own extra coro
2023-01-20T16:28:09 < zyp> i.e. spawn a thread and await a future, thread starts and either sets the future to signal successful start or passes up any exceptions through it to signal failure
2023-01-20T16:28:11 < karlp> though I still don't see how it can propagate any failures.
2023-01-20T16:28:21 < zyp> you can propagate exceptions through futures
2023-01-20T16:28:30 < aandrew> I mean flux vector/space vector control is old hat, everyone does sensorless vector control these days
2023-01-20T16:28:41 < karlp> the problem isn't waiting for successful thread start, the problem is unexpectred thread death due to unhandled exceptions in the layer of parsing shit in that thread.
2023-01-20T16:28:56 < karlp> so the thread is posting events, and then it it just.... stops posting events.
2023-01-20T16:29:05 < karlp> and the main outer sits there happily waiting for new events.
2023-01-20T16:29:11 < zyp> posting to a queue?
2023-01-20T16:29:29 < zyp> anyway, there's this thing: https://docs.python.org/3/library/asyncio-future.html#asyncio.Future.set_exception
2023-01-20T16:30:16 < zyp> stick an exception in a future and it'll be raised where the future is awaited
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2023-01-20T16:31:16 < karlp> yeah, and that would have to be a special extra coro added to the loop in the .start() which is super gross.
2023-01-20T16:31:19 < karlp> this all sucks.
2023-01-20T16:31:22 < zyp> agreed
2023-01-20T16:31:43 < karlp> if only bluez wasn't so shit that I hadn't thought of going down this path.
2023-01-20T16:31:54  * karlp considers re-implementing the bgapi...
2023-01-20T16:44:18 < karlp> man, craftcloud3d has gotten expensive all of a sudden.
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2023-01-20T17:21:34 < catphish_> i have a more fundamental question about motors: why does the power supply having a lower frequency (ie negative in phase) than a motor cause current to flow away from the motor into the power supply?
2023-01-20T17:22:05 < catphish_> what is it about that small phase difference that causes that current flow?
2023-01-20T17:25:39 < catphish_> i suppose the speed difference between rotor and stator is what causes current to flow in the rotor and creates the opposing fields, but beyond that i'm getting pretty confused about what's causing the actual currents to flow
2023-01-20T17:26:12 < jpa-> at 0 torque there is 90° phase difference between current and voltage => if you multiply them, 0 average power; if there is less than 90° difference, net power is positive; if there is more than 90° difference, net power is negative
2023-01-20T17:27:18 < catphish_> ah yes if you start at 90 degrees, that makes sense
2023-01-20T17:29:26 < jpa-> you can also consider the case when you short the stator windings - the rotor magnetic field (in permanent magnet motor) will make current flow at specific phase
2023-01-20T17:30:20 < jpa-> and then consider the case with open stator windings - the rotor magnetic field will cause a backemf voltage at specific phase
2023-01-20T17:30:46 < catphish_> voltage clearly has some effect here too, there must be some relative voltage between the two for current to flow in the first place
2023-01-20T17:30:52 < jpa-> your control system can either control the stator voltage or the stator current - usually the latter, except for simple V/Hz drives
2023-01-20T17:32:29 < catphish_> it's obvious in my head that if too much current is flowing into a particular leg, increasing the voltage on that leg will decrease the voltage
2023-01-20T17:32:43 < catphish_> *decrease the current
2023-01-20T17:33:55 < catphish_> everything is falling into place. if current is in the opposite direction to voltage, then increasing voltage will oppose that current
2023-01-20T17:34:04 < catphish_> that's electricity 101
2023-01-20T17:35:56 < catphish_> so to control current, i need to look at both current and voltage, in a leg, if current is in the opposite direction to voltage, then i can block that current by increasing the voltage on that leg
2023-01-20T17:36:11 < catphish_> and i'm sure that concept will scale up to a 3 phase system once i lay it out
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2023-01-20T19:00:55 < jpa-> catphish_: yeah - i did one motor control thingy by just having per-phase PID controlling the voltage to keep the current at what i want; but it required 100kHz PID to have fast enough response
2023-01-20T19:01:15 < jpa-> doing PID in rotating phase makes it work even at slower pace
2023-01-20T19:02:12 < catphish_> yeah i decided against doing the PID per phase, even though that seemed like it might be interesting
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2023-01-20T19:02:57 < catphish_> i just did a plot of voltage, current, and power, looking at this makes it strikingly obvious (i hope) why my PID doesn't work, and how to fix it :)
2023-01-20T19:03:05 < catphish_> https://openinverter.org/forum/download/file.php?id=21116&mode=view
2023-01-20T19:03:54 < catphish_> basically there's some positive power which magnetizes the rotor, then power goes negative, and the PID just does nuts until the field collapses
2023-01-20T19:04:12 < catphish_> amp == voltage
2023-01-20T19:04:35 < catphish_> ilmax = current, preal = real power
2023-01-20T19:05:54 < catphish_> i'm hoping if i reverse the error direction of the PID when power is negative, it'll stabilize
2023-01-20T19:09:51 < jpa-> "amp" is a great name for voltage :D
2023-01-20T19:10:44 < jpa-> why is ilmax always positive?
2023-01-20T19:19:39 -!- Mangy_Dog [~Mange@user/mangy-dog/x-7397214] has quit []
2023-01-20T19:20:55 < catphish_> ilmax is peak current, it has no sign
2023-01-20T19:21:19 < catphish_> AC current in general has no sign, at least not without some context
2023-01-20T19:21:55 < catphish_> ignoring units ilmax could also be called 3 phase RMS current
2023-01-20T19:22:07 < catphish_> (though in reality it's the peak per phase)
2023-01-20T19:23:20 < catphish_> this is what ilmax is https://openinverter.org/forum/download/file.php?id=17224&mode=view
2023-01-20T19:24:10 < catphish_> now i know real power, i can change the sign of ilmax before it goes into my PID
2023-01-20T19:24:55 < ventYl> is this even fully controllable by PID?
2023-01-20T19:26:04 < catphish_> well it works when slip direction == rotor direction
2023-01-20T19:26:35 < ventYl> I mean, in general, will it work for uphill / downhill ride?
2023-01-20T19:26:45 < ventYl> I have absolutely zero knowledge in control theory
2023-01-20T19:27:08 < catphish_> well, we're just controlling torque, we don't care about the load on the motor
2023-01-20T19:27:28 < catphish_> here's a chart of it behaving on a short drive https://openinverter.org/forum/download/file.php?id=21033&mode=view
2023-01-20T19:28:09 < catphish_> err, no it isn't.
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2023-01-20T19:28:32 < catphish_> *this* is a chart of it on a short drive
2023-01-20T19:29:25 < catphish_> this is it going a 0-60 at full throttle :) https://openinverter.org/forum/download/file.php?id=21091&mode=view
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2023-01-20T19:32:01 < catphish_> so yes, it works
2023-01-20T19:32:17 < ventYl> cool
2023-01-20T19:32:31 < catphish_> christ, i fail at pasting
2023-01-20T19:32:40 < jpa-> catphish_: i would take dot product of phase current with phase voltage
2023-01-20T19:32:43 < catphish_> lets try one more time: https://openinverter.org/forum/download/file.php?id=21090&mode=view
2023-01-20T19:32:52 < catphish_> that's the normal driving plot
2023-01-20T19:33:10 < ventYl> catphish_: nevermind, I am hacking a linker-script patching tool, so my brains are in entirely different dimension now
2023-01-20T19:33:13 < jpa-> and then your current will have a sign
2023-01-20T19:33:19 < catphish_> jpa-: i'm pretty sure that's what "preal" is
2023-01-20T19:33:35 < jpa-> yeah
2023-01-20T19:33:55 < jpa-> actually, i wanted to say: dot product of phase current with the direction of phase voltage, i.e. unity vector
2023-01-20T19:33:56 < catphish_> well that's not a signed current, it's the real power
2023-01-20T19:34:01 < jpa-> so you get current and not power
2023-01-20T19:34:36 < jpa-> and disregard the part of the current that is in perpendicular direction, as it does nothing useful anyway
2023-01-20T19:35:00 < catphish_> oh, do it as a 2d vector
2023-01-20T19:35:15 < jpa-> (to maximize efficiency, you would have another PID or the imaginary channel of complex-valued PID optimizing the perpendicular current to 0)
2023-01-20T19:35:57 < catphish_> right now i'm keeping it simple and controlling the "actual" current, there are a couple of reasons for this
2023-01-20T19:36:17 < catphish_> but basicaly i don't want to control the useful component, but let reactive current get out of control
2023-01-20T19:36:48 < catphish_> for now, the user can configure their slip manually to maximize power factor
2023-01-20T19:37:15 < jpa-> i think reactive current doesn't get out of control even if you don't control it, as long as you have some sensible angle (like your hardcoded slip)
2023-01-20T19:37:17 < catphish_> but i agree it would be cool in the future to compare useful current with total current and dynamically asjust slip to maximize efficiency
2023-01-20T19:38:10 < catphish_> you're right, it won't go nuts, but i'd prefer right now for the user to be optimizing inside a limit rather than optimizing out what's above the limit
2023-01-20T19:38:45 < catphish_> part of the goal of this current control is to allow the components to be pushed near their current limits without going over
2023-01-20T19:38:56 < jpa-> controlling the total max current might get out of control if your PID sees a lot of reactive current, and tries to adjust the voltage - but if your voltage vector is in a direction that doesn't really affect the reactive current
2023-01-20T19:41:52 < catphish_> anyway, i can easily get useful current by dividing real power by rms voltage
2023-01-20T19:42:05 < catphish_> i'll have to look into doing this as a 2d vector though
2023-01-20T19:43:20 < catphish_> we have 3 currents separated by 120 degrees, and 3 voltages separated by 120 degrees, so it's easy enough to calculate both as a 2d vector, but i'm not sure the result of multiplying them would be different
2023-01-20T19:44:05 < catphish_> right now i can do: i1*v1 + i2*v2 + i3+v3 / Vrms
2023-01-20T19:44:27 < jpa-> yeah, that will probably work reasonably well also
2023-01-20T19:44:45 < catphish_> which afaik gives me the one dimensional vector of useful current
2023-01-20T19:45:06 < catphish_> i can experiment with using that for my PID instead of imax
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2023-01-20T19:46:10 < catphish_> this might give more consistent torque, but it will also cause unpredictable (to me) additional reactive current
2023-01-20T19:47:09 < catphish_> the inverter cuts out at 1200A  of any kind of current, so it makes more sense to me to limit total current first, then optimize power factor after, i can experiment though
2023-01-20T20:35:25 < josuah> > i1*v1 + i2*v2 + i3+v3 / Vrms
2023-01-20T20:35:33 < josuah> does this show the direction of the rotation?
2023-01-20T20:40:30 < catphish_> no
2023-01-20T20:41:05 < catphish_> it shows you the direction of power
2023-01-20T21:16:47 < ventYl>  /* (we apologize for introducing potential year 5851444 bug */
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2023-01-20T21:17:51 < catphish_> lol
2023-01-20T21:18:42 < catphish_> i just realised my real power is actually negative when power is flowing the normal way, that is "unexpected", i don't know what that means for the future of humanity, maybe somebody swapped a phase somewhere
2023-01-20T21:19:50 < ventYl> you'll swap R and D on transmission lever, problem solved
2023-01-20T21:48:04 < qyx> 17:32 < catphish_> that's the normal driving plot
2023-01-20T21:48:07 < qyx> what ^^
2023-01-20T21:48:24 < qyx> do you usually accelerate full throttle during casual normal driving?
2023-01-20T21:59:18 < catphish_> qyx: 1) yes, i paid for the whole pedal so i'm using the whole pedal 2) this was the first test drivng with the new control algorithm, the power was substantially reduced, so full throttle was absolutely called for
2023-01-20T21:59:49 < qyx> lol'd at 1.
2023-01-20T22:00:45 < catphish_> for reference, with that config, it did 0-60 in 10.0 seconds at full throttle
2023-01-20T22:01:01 < catphish_> the normal tune on that car does it in 5.0
2023-01-20T22:01:31 < catphish_> err 5.2, though i hope to get that under 5 with this new code :)
2023-01-20T22:11:57 < josuah> catphish_: I was confused, thank you
2023-01-20T22:12:55 < josuah> lol'd at 1 too !
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2023-01-20T23:36:01 < catphish_> i'm looking to multiply 2 values that are approximately 2**16 each, the result is in danger of overflowing my signed 32 bit output, is there some clever workaround, or do i need to discard some bits from the inputs
2023-01-20T23:38:55 < fenugrec> either clamp values before mul, or do math in a int64
2023-01-20T23:39:32 < catphish_> how expensive is dealing in int64?
2023-01-20T23:40:03 < fenugrec> try it on godbolt, probably not so bad
2023-01-20T23:41:12 < catphish_> ah ideal
2023-01-20T23:43:18 < josuah> catphish_: would discarding the lowest bits help?
2023-01-20T23:44:24 < josuah> catphish_: IIRC some archs support only [32-bit] * [32-bit] mult with result [32-bit], while some support the result to be [64-bit]
2023-01-20T23:44:50 < catphish_> godbolt seems like a useful way to see :)
2023-01-20T23:47:28 < catphish_> i think multiplying into a uint64_t will work
2023-01-20T23:48:47 < catphish_> annoyingly int64_t c = (int64_t)a * (int64_t)b; is much more expensive than int64_t c = a * b;
2023-01-20T23:48:54 < catphish_> i'm not sure which version is needed
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2023-01-20T23:54:38 < catphish_> josuah: yes, discardling the lower bits would probably solve the problem, but it seems a bit messy
2023-01-20T23:58:29 < chris_99> Hi, i'm just wondering if someone might be able to point me in the right direction, i'm using DMA to read from an ADC to a buffer, i think normally HAL_ADC_ConvCpltCallback would be called when the circ buffer is filled, the application crashes before / at this point, i can see the circ buffer is being written to as i can read some of the elements of 'aADCxConvertedData'.  I think the problem is my application is loaded dynamically 
2023-01-20T23:58:29 < chris_99> (as an elf) by a loading function, which is part of the freertos based firmware.   But i think the irq handlers i created such as 'DMA1_Channel1_IRQHandler' aren't actually being included in the .elf file.  I can link to my code if that's of any help.  I'm wondering if there might be a way to override the irq handlers in some kind of programmatic way?
--- Day changed la tammi 21 2023
2023-01-21T00:02:40 -!- Laurence_b [~Laurence_@51.177.208.46.dyn.plus.net] has joined ##stm32
2023-01-21T00:02:43 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/Rainmaker1973/status/1540994831555727363#m
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2023-01-21T00:06:01 < josuah> catphish_: with this I get an overflow: printf("%"PRIu64"\r\n", (uint64_t)((uint32_t)UINT32_MAX * (uint32_t)UINT32_MAX));
2023-01-21T00:07:30 < josuah> <chris_99> But i think the irq handlers i created such as 'DMA1_Channel1_IRQHandler' aren't actually being included in the .elf file.
2023-01-21T00:07:34 < josuah> some way to verify this would be to obtain the map file out of the linker. -Map ld flag iirc
2023-01-21T00:07:38 < fenugrec> heh "\r\n"
2023-01-21T00:07:50 < josuah> fenugrec: :D uart habits
2023-01-21T00:08:30 < chris_99> josuah: ah thanks, i did - objdump -x
2023-01-21T00:10:24 < josuah> Laurence_b: it might consume a lot of coal energy under the carpet
2023-01-21T00:10:33 < josuah> Laurence_b: to produce it in China
2023-01-21T00:11:06 < josuah> chris_99: no idea if it is possible to configure weak alias from linker flags directly
2023-01-21T00:12:25 < catphish_> josuah: i got the answer elsewhere, promotion happens on each operation individually, so in this case, s32 * s32 == s32, then it gets promoted to s64 AFTER the multiplication is done
2023-01-21T00:12:34 < zyp> catphish_, when you say approximately 2**16, what ranges are we talking?
2023-01-21T00:12:37 < zyp> yep
2023-01-21T00:13:07 < zyp> C doesn't really have a way to tell the compiler you want to do 32x32=>64
2023-01-21T00:13:38 < zyp> you need to tell it to do 64x64=>64 and hope it's clever enough to optimize for the fact that inputs are <2**32
2023-01-21T00:15:16 < fenugrec> PS "long long" is guaranteed to be >= 64bits, less typing than 'uint64'
2023-01-21T00:16:11 < fenugrec> less typing for *printf formatters, that is. Always hated the "%PRIuXX" horror
2023-01-21T00:16:17 < zyp> this multiplication stuff reminds me of an avr8 project I worked on once, had to optimize a bunch of multiplications
2023-01-21T00:16:52 < zyp> original code was floating point, which is not particularly fast on an avr, so I rewrote it to 8.24 fixedpoint
2023-01-21T00:17:21 < catphish_> zyp: one value is a int16_t and always uses all the bits (-32k to +32k), the other is a signed fixed point int with 5 fractional bits, it can be anything up to about 2000, which with 5 extra bits is 64,000
2023-01-21T00:17:37 < catphish_> so it really it right on the margin of using all 32 bits
2023-01-21T00:17:45 < catphish_> *is
2023-01-21T00:18:16 < zyp> which when multiplied becomes 16.48, calling a library function to do 64 bit multiplication…
2023-01-21T00:20:47 < catphish_> i could discard one bit from each input and it would probably be okay
2023-01-21T00:21:09 < zyp> catphish_, how accurate is «about 2000»?
2023-01-21T00:21:22 < josuah> Laurence_b: one problem with these kind of projects is that we are not out of stupid investors https://www.dubaitravelguide.info/the-xdubai-slingshot/
2023-01-21T00:21:28 < zyp> if it never exceeds 2047, it can't overflow, if it can be 2048, it can overflow
2023-01-21T00:21:30 < zyp> simple as that
2023-01-21T00:23:40 < catphish_> i wouldn't like to assume that it can't exceed 2048 :(
2023-01-21T00:23:57 < catphish_> though i wonder if i can just drop a couple of bits from each input
2023-01-21T00:23:59 < zyp> I'm not talking about assumptions, I'm talking about valid range
2023-01-21T00:24:41 < catphish_> perhaps i should dig deeper and see where those inputs come from
2023-01-21T00:25:13 < fenugrec> you want to enforce ranges at some point in your chain, eventually...
2023-01-21T00:25:21 < fenugrec> can't just cast to a larger type every time !
2023-01-21T00:25:34 < zyp> in any case, the logic is super easy
2023-01-21T00:25:58  * catphish_ digs
2023-01-21T00:25:59 < zyp> if you've got two numbers that fits in n and m bits respectively, the product will always fit in n+m bits
2023-01-21T00:26:12 < zyp> so your first number fits in 16
2023-01-21T00:26:38 < josuah> if it comes from ADC, would tere be some possible signal saturation as well?
2023-01-21T00:26:44 < zyp> 2047 << 5 also fits in 16, 2048 << 5 is 1 << 17
2023-01-21T00:27:16 < zyp> sorry, 1 << 16 I mean
2023-01-21T00:27:36 < josuah> if (uint64_t result does not fit in uint32_t value) uint32_t value = UINT32_MAX;
2023-01-21T00:27:44 < josuah> something like that?
2023-01-21T00:28:16 < catphish_> i will investigate the sources of these numbers and see if i can be more accurate
2023-01-21T00:28:16 < zyp> hard to sanely tell the compiler that
2023-01-21T00:28:35 < zyp> catphish_, yeah, that's the right way
2023-01-21T00:28:37 < fenugrec> that, or you can do it before with e.g. "if (operand1 >= (UINT32_MAX / OP2_MAX)) but with extra work since you have signed values
2023-01-21T00:28:52 < catphish_> one of the numbers probably comes from an ADC and then scaled, so many of its bits are probably fiction anyway
2023-01-21T00:29:13 < zyp> depends
2023-01-21T00:30:25 < josuah> there might be voltage that saturate the ADC, giving an unexpected value at any int type
2023-01-21T00:30:31 < zyp> if you've got a 12 bit ADC and average 16 samples, that'll give you another four bits
2023-01-21T00:30:52 < zyp> assuming any information in them isn't lost to noise anyway
2023-01-21T00:31:05 < fenugrec> something something sqrt(num_samples)
2023-01-21T00:31:31 < catphish_> ironically i only want one bit out of this operation, but i need that bit to be correct
2023-01-21T00:31:58 < zyp> hah
2023-01-21T00:32:29 < zyp> over/under some threshold?
2023-01-21T00:33:05 < catphish_> the result i'm looking for is: i1*v1 + i2*v2 + i3*v3 >= 0
2023-01-21T00:34:07 < catphish_> all 6 inputs are passed to me as signed 32 bit, hence my caution
2023-01-21T00:34:36 < zyp> have you considered just doing this in floating point? or are you doing this on some shitty mcu without a fpu?
2023-01-21T00:35:01 < catphish_> *mumbles*f103
2023-01-21T00:35:30 < catphish_> this program makes heavy use of fixed point maths
2023-01-21T00:36:01 < zyp> vmul.f32 is a single cycle instruction on m4 :)
2023-01-21T00:37:05 < zyp> kinda hard to beat with fixedpoint
2023-01-21T00:38:46 < karlp> catphish is in the mangydog and lolrence british weirdo crowd.... f103s and shit for... reasons :)
2023-01-21T00:39:14 < zyp> maybe it's a british thing, using the wrong tool for the job
2023-01-21T00:41:59 < karlp> how should we improve international trade?  leave all our allies!
2023-01-21T00:42:25 < qyx> lol karlp 
2023-01-21T00:46:23 < catphish_> can't CPUs just have more bits?
2023-01-21T00:46:59 < zyp> sure, but then you'd have to switch from f103 to something else
2023-01-21T00:48:22 < zyp> and I don't really think you're gonna find many alternatives with more either
2023-01-21T00:48:46 < zyp> k210 is the only one that comes to mind, if that even counts
2023-01-21T00:49:40 < zyp> it should count, it's a microcontroller, internal ram and no mmu
2023-01-21T00:54:05 < qyx> has anyone actually tried it?
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2023-01-21T00:54:17 < qyx> I was about to buy that sipeed module
2023-01-21T00:55:37 < qyx> 22:30 < zyp> if you've got a 12 bit ADC and average 16 samples, that'll give you another four bits
2023-01-21T00:55:40 < qyx> really?
2023-01-21T00:55:47 < zyp> kinda
2023-01-21T00:56:26 < qyx> As a general guideline, oversampling the ADC by a factor of four provides one additional bit of resolution, or a 6 dB increase in dynamic range
2023-01-21T00:56:30 < qyx> analol.com says
2023-01-21T00:56:34 < zyp> if you add two 12-bit numbers, you get a 13-bit number, and so on, up to 16
2023-01-21T00:56:35 < qyx> which is what I reemember
2023-01-21T00:57:17 < qyx> yes you get, but after oversampling you have to shift one back
2023-01-21T00:57:28 < qyx> oversampling by 4 requires shifting by one back
2023-01-21T00:58:44 < zyp> the statistical theory of how much more useful info you get is less intuitive than just the increase in data, but yeah, you're right
2023-01-21T00:59:37 < zyp> the point in any case is that you can oversample to increase resolution
2023-01-21T00:59:51 < qyx> yeah if your noise is at least 0.5 LSB
2023-01-21T01:00:33 < zyp> something something delta sigma ADC
2023-01-21T01:00:55 < qyx> probably, I never quite understood how delta sigma works
2023-01-21T01:01:01 < qyx> not really compatible with my brain
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2023-01-21T01:01:16 < kaki> hello late pros
2023-01-21T01:01:18 < zyp> similar concept
2023-01-21T01:01:20 < zyp> but yeah
2023-01-21T01:05:42 < kaki> did catphish become induction motor control pro yet?
2023-01-21T01:07:27 < kaki> catphish: I need to order some UK stuff. Could you pass the order?
2023-01-21T01:08:03 < kaki> they don't ship anywhere else than UK :/
2023-01-21T01:09:16 < Steffanx-> British snus?
2023-01-21T01:10:01 < kaki> you know that snus is only legal in house of parlament or something in uk
2023-01-21T01:10:28 < kaki> they have a guy that gibs snus to members of parlament in small wooden boxes
2023-01-21T01:11:19 < kaki> and it's very fine powder you sniff
2023-01-21T01:12:45 < kaki> is it snus though
2023-01-21T01:13:16 < rustyaxe> No thats kokain
2023-01-21T01:13:34 < kaki> ah
2023-01-21T01:13:35 < rustyaxe> We used to have a guy who brought it cubicle to cubicle back in late 90s
2023-01-21T01:13:47 < rustyaxe> during the "dot com boom"
2023-01-21T01:14:12 < rustyaxe> Sometimes they'd even have dancing ladies to partake of the "productivity powder" off of. Good times. Shame that culture died out
2023-01-21T01:15:23 < kaki> you lived through that?
2023-01-21T01:15:50 < kaki> in middle of all the buzz?
2023-01-21T01:16:06 < rustyaxe> i was just getting into the field kek
2023-01-21T01:17:18 < kaki> dope
2023-01-21T01:17:32 < rustyaxe> its rather sad
2023-01-21T01:17:42 < rustyaxe> No more meetings at strip clubs
2023-01-21T01:17:55 < rustyaxe> No more lines of kokain encircling the round table, etc.
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2023-01-21T01:27:14 < kaki> tech has cleaned up it's act
2023-01-21T01:27:29 < kaki> but all that cocaine is still going somewhere
2023-01-21T01:27:32 < kaki> just saying
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2023-01-21T01:52:56 < Steffanx-> Yes, where you put it kaki?
2023-01-21T01:59:10 < kaki> in the prison pocket
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2023-01-21T02:46:36 < kaki> rustyaxe: you worked at Enron?
2023-01-21T02:47:18 < rustyaxe> no, i worked at a long defuncted social media thing
2023-01-21T02:50:30 < fenugrec> myspace ? heh
2023-01-21T02:52:27 < rustyaxe> This was more hookup oriented :P
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2023-01-21T04:08:52 < qyx> kaki: snow report now
2023-01-21T04:09:26 < kaki> snow: yes, snowing: no
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2023-01-21T07:16:45 < ColdKeyboard> Anyone have a clue why STM32L4's GPIO PB9/8 would be held at ~1.3V (VDD is 3.3V)?
2023-01-21T07:17:31 < ColdKeyboard> There is literally nothing in between the MCU pin and a pad where I'm probing (removed the series resistor so it's disconnected from rest of the circuit)
2023-01-21T07:18:11 < ColdKeyboard> The pins alternate function is CAN TX/RX but I'm not configuring them for AF nor is CAN initialized...
2023-01-21T07:18:19 < ColdKeyboard> Starting to lose my mind with this one :)
2023-01-21T08:22:15 < jpa-> ColdKeyboard: maybe they are in pull-up mode and your multimeter has a rather low impedance?
2023-01-21T08:22:28 < jpa-> try measuring between GPIO and +3.3V and see if you get 2.0V or something else
2023-01-21T08:24:50 < ColdKeyboard> I did. And I'm scoping it with oscilloscope
2023-01-21T08:25:38 < ColdKeyboard> Weird is that when I set it as Push-Pull I can see square-wave shape on that pin but it's biased with ~1.4V instead of being 0-3.3V
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2023-01-21T08:35:23 < jpa-> ColdKeyboard: do other IO pins work normally?
2023-01-21T08:38:26 < ColdKeyboard> Yes they do
2023-01-21T08:38:38 < ColdKeyboard> I2C, USART, GPIO for led ect all work fine
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2023-01-21T08:39:53 < jpa-> but do they look ok on your scope?
2023-01-21T08:49:16 < ColdKeyboard> Yes, they all look fine :\
2023-01-21T08:50:07 < jpa-> could the pin have been damaged somehow?
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2023-01-21T09:07:01 < ColdKeyboard> Possibly but I'm not sure how... The pin literally goes to 1K resistor that drives mosfet...
2023-01-21T09:07:46 < ColdKeyboard> I tried not initalizing the pin and same issue happens. So I guess I'll have to dig into datasheet and see if I missed some asterix or footnote
2023-01-21T09:30:30 < qyx> ColdKeyboard: I am usin pb8/pb9 just normal on L451
2023-01-21T10:42:40 < jpa-> ColdKeyboard: is the weird square wave 1.4V to 3.3V, or some other range?
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2023-01-21T13:01:55 < qyx> ColdKeyboard: didn't you exchange TX/RX by any chance?
2023-01-21T13:02:22 < qyx> you know that with can it goes RX->RX and TX->TX, don't you?
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2023-01-21T15:31:58 < karlp> meh, went back to my old project I'd been using dapboot and dfu with, and it doesn't work anymore now either.
2023-01-21T15:32:05 < karlp> this will be fun to unwind...
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2023-01-21T16:05:22 < fenugrec> even if configured as CAN AF, there's no builtin transceiver, so they have no business floating at midsupply. The suggestion to compare readings between pin-GND and pin-VDD is good, shows if (and hwo much) DMM impedance is affecting measurement
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2023-01-21T19:29:30 < kaki> englishman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktd-DgLR8HA
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2023-01-21T19:33:16 < kaki> canada had it's first trade deal with itself 3years ago :o
2023-01-21T19:34:12 < kaki> the provinces are more like countries than provinces :o
2023-01-21T19:34:53 < kaki> maybe even more so than what Texas is to US?
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2023-01-21T20:39:01 < karlp> blah, foudn thecommit in dapboot that broke it.
2023-01-21T20:39:06 < karlp> ah well, that's progress then right...
2023-01-21T20:40:01 < karlp> fucking f103 wankers thinking they should define how the world works.
2023-01-21T20:56:49 < qyx> TIL In 100Base-TX mode, the polarity is irrelevant.
2023-01-21T20:56:59 < qyx> (ref. realtek)
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2023-01-21T21:27:20 < qyx> what the hell is circuitmaker
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2023-01-21T22:31:10 < kaki> catphish_
2023-01-21T22:37:35 < catphish_> haha
2023-01-21T22:59:02 -!- drzacek [~drzacek@188.126.190.149] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
2023-01-21T23:08:05 < kaki> how is induction?
2023-01-21T23:59:35 < catphish_> trying to tune ye olde voltage PID
--- Day changed su tammi 22 2023
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2023-01-22T00:52:56 < qyx> https://microchipsupport.force.com/s/article/SD-Card-and-eMMC-NAND-Flash-in-parallel-used-on-SAM9G45
2023-01-22T00:53:09 < qyx> this is interesting, anyone ever tried to connect multiple eMMC in parallel?
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2023-01-22T04:18:15 < karlp> I'm 99% sre that trying to do "polarity is irrelevant" is going to give you a bad day if you treat that as standard,
2023-01-22T04:18:25 < karlp> but... I've not read the standards either.
2023-01-22T04:18:37 < karlp> also, the only thing tha tmatters is the implementation, no the standard.
2023-01-22T04:19:46 < qyx> probably the MTL3 encoding makes it irrelevant
2023-01-22T04:19:58 < qyx> not that "it is mandated by the standard to have polarity swap"
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2023-01-22T04:20:50 < qyx> because they wrote it that way like "with 10base, polarity swap is not required but supported, for 1000base it is supported, for 100base-tx it is irrelevant (works without support)"
2023-01-22T05:40:01 < ColdKeyboard> <jpa-> ColdKeyboard: is the weird square wave 1.4V to 3.3V, or some other range?
2023-01-22T05:40:22 < ColdKeyboard> Yes, it's 1.4V to 3.3V. So basically just biased with 1.4V and clipepd at 3.3V
2023-01-22T05:40:43 < ColdKeyboard> Super weird but maybe I just damaged the micro... not sure
2023-01-22T05:41:22 < ColdKeyboard> Do you guys use a custom bootloader, for STM32 or the one that is built into each micro or there is a good open-source one to recommend?
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2023-01-22T06:18:11 < qyx> ColdKeyboard: hows your rx/tx?
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2023-01-22T06:19:42 < qyx> or better paste your sch
2023-01-22T06:21:34 < qyx> exactly this would happen if the bus is in recessive level, transceiver outputs high on RX and you try to drive dominant by MCU on TX
2023-01-22T06:22:12 < qyx> you will get TX somewhere around midsupply
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2023-01-22T08:36:01 < ColdKeyboard> qyx but everything is disconnected...
2023-01-22T08:36:21 < ColdKeyboard> I removed the series resistor I had
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2023-01-22T14:54:33 < qyx> TIL qrencode can output QR codes as UTF8
2023-01-22T15:35:08 < jpa-> ColdKeyboard: does the board power usage change when you toggle the IO pin to low / high? that would indicate a short-circuit somewhere
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2023-01-22T16:42:04 < qyx> once again, what's the correct orientation of CM chokes on ethernet transformers?
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2023-01-22T16:47:50 < jpa-> horizontal
2023-01-22T16:56:03 < zyp> 45 degrees
2023-01-22T16:58:30 < englishman> neoliberal
2023-01-22T16:59:09 < qyx> you are not being helpful
2023-01-22T16:59:16 < qyx> but that's ok, google neither
2023-01-22T17:00:35 < qyx> 45deg is correct in each case, there should be at least one component on a pcb rotated 45deg
2023-01-22T17:01:39 < jpa-> try asking chatgpt once they solve their capacity problems
2023-01-22T17:02:36 < qyx> related, one of our mainstream daily news started using midjourney for their illustrations
2023-01-22T17:02:42 < jpa-> "The Common Mode (CM) chokes on Ethernet transformers should be oriented such that the windings are in series with the differential signaling pairs. This will help to suppress common mode noise and interference on the transmission line."    well wasn't that obvious! ;)
2023-01-22T17:03:31 < jpa-> https://e2e.ti.com/resized-image/__size/1230x0/__key/communityserver-discussions-components-files/138/2134.ether1.png  but don't these random google diagrams answer it, or the transformer manufacturer datasheet?
2023-01-22T17:03:56 < qyx> yes they do, every single one differently
2023-01-22T17:04:33 < jpa-> the common mode choke is just EMI extra anyway, i would follow whatever the transformer / phy manufacturer specifies
2023-01-22T17:04:53 < jpa-> how many ways can you orient them anyway?
2023-01-22T17:05:17 < qyx> primary/secondary
2023-01-22T17:05:19 < qyx> or both
2023-01-22T17:05:22 < zyp>  just put one on either side and call it a day
2023-01-22T17:05:46 < jpa-> huh, i haven't seen anyone put it only on device side - i would say cable side or both sides
2023-01-22T17:06:12 < jpa-> hmm, google images finds those also :D
2023-01-22T17:06:18 < jpa-> now i understand what you mean
2023-01-22T17:06:31 < qyx> I would say for PoE they are a bit annoying on the connector side
2023-01-22T17:07:09 < jpa-> maybe, if you want to draw pulsating currents
2023-01-22T17:07:30 < jpa-> but for POE you need to consider isolation differently anyway
2023-01-22T17:07:58 < qyx> yes but they increase the series resistance for no good reason
2023-01-22T17:08:24 < qyx> oh meh
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2023-01-22T18:35:17 < kaki> https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-64354089
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2023-01-22T19:41:17 < kaki> catphish_
2023-01-22T19:42:55 < catphish_> ahoyhoy
2023-01-22T19:43:18 < catphish_> today i hate motors :)
2023-01-22T19:43:52 < kaki> motor is not behaving?
2023-01-22T19:44:25 < catphish_> nope, it's probably doing what it's supposed to do, but not what i want it to do
2023-01-22T19:45:08 < catphish_> when the motor is acting as a motor, i can control the current through it by controlling voltage, everyone's happy
2023-01-22T19:45:37 < catphish_> but when it starts acting as a generator, all bets are off, i guess because it gains the ability to supply its own rotor current
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2023-01-22T20:20:20 < catphish_> this image sums up why i hate motors :) https://i.imgur.com/6EKgoxk.png
2023-01-22T20:20:21 < kaki> if I had to do the motor controller I would maybe integrate rotor current constantly
2023-01-22T20:20:38 < kaki> but that would require a decent micro
2023-01-22T20:20:41 < catphish_> i want 100A but the motor decides what i really need is 400A
2023-01-22T20:22:43 < kaki> if rotor current angle whatnot is integrated constantly it allows nice single mode code
2023-01-22T20:23:24 < kaki> vectors and shit
2023-01-22T20:23:29 < kaki> bbbl>
2023-01-22T20:23:36 < catphish_> yeah, a proper FOC implementation would be the dream
2023-01-22T20:33:50 < catphish_> this is so annoying, my algorithm works nicely when the motor is being a motor, but when it becomes a generator, all hell breaks loose, the motor starts powering itself and i get way less control
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2023-01-22T21:04:54 < josuah> catphish_: is there any event that triggers that difference between ilmax and ilmaxtarget, or does it appears spontaneously?
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2023-01-22T21:20:26 < catphish_> josuah: it usually appears immediately after a change in slip direction, look at the orange line, however this chart shows that it can happen repeatedly, so the change in slip direction is more of a trigger than the root cause blob:https://imgur.com/873920cb-85ad-4234-be06-6c69d8a039bb
2023-01-22T21:20:34 < catphish_> * https://i.imgur.com/xMF8xQA.png
2023-01-22T21:21:12 < catphish_> my suspicion is that too much flux is building up somewhere, it only happens when operating as a generator
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2023-01-22T22:03:48 < karlp> qyx: I seem to recall zypð or dongs or someone trying ot use that "polarituy doesn't matter" and getting burnt somehow...
2023-01-22T22:04:36 < qyx> oh I got burnt multiple times
2023-01-22T22:04:54 < qyx> but you have to try to become a pro
2023-01-22T22:05:24 < zyp> I was debugging some ethernet stuff at $oldjob where IIRC somebody fucked up polarity
2023-01-22T22:06:29 < zyp> that was not the cause for the issue I were having, but I tried swapping it to confirm
2023-01-22T22:07:07 < zyp> (real issue was that assemblyhouse fucked up termination resistors, they assembled 75k instead of 75R)
2023-01-22T22:07:36 < qyx> did you also try to unshort esd diodes? https://bin.jvnv.net/file/yrAa0/Screenshot_2023-01-22_21-07-07.png
2023-01-22T22:07:56 < zyp> haha
2023-01-22T22:09:10 < qyx> today I spend nearly 10 engineering hours selecting a suitable SGMII switch
2023-01-22T22:09:50 < qyx> surprisingly enough, I ended up with SJA1105, because despite being automotive it is super available and availability of documentation is pretty good
2023-01-22T22:10:18 < qyx> compared to broadcom, atheros/qualcomm, realtek and microchip, which is not available at all
2023-01-22T22:10:53 < zyp> hmm, that's a switch chip without any internal PHYs?
2023-01-22T22:11:02 < zyp> seems uncommon, haven't seen a lot of those
2023-01-22T22:11:25 < qyx> I actually need one 3 port gigabit with SGMII for FO
2023-01-22T22:11:39 < qyx> and then some 10/100 with MII/RMII/RGMII for single pair ethernet
2023-01-22T22:11:50 < qyx> SJA1105 fits both
2023-01-22T22:13:11 < zyp> what flavor of single pair ethernet?
2023-01-22T22:14:29 < qyx> 10base-t1s for multi-card daq, 100base-t1/1000base-t1 for classic applications where ethernet is suited
2023-01-22T22:14:37 < qyx> I am using CAN now
2023-01-22T22:15:00 < qyx> everything goes over a backplane, 10" max length
2023-01-22T22:21:41 < kaki> catphish_: can you order uk stuff for me?
2023-01-22T22:23:21 < catphish_> kaki: probably
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2023-01-22T22:32:19 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/chaiconsumer/status/1397937097869185024#m
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2023-01-22T23:19:27 < josuah> It took me a very big while to understand how the common choke could work
2023-01-22T23:19:37 < josuah> I missed something important about magnetic flux
2023-01-22T23:21:36 < josuah> catphish_: what if you could store flux temporarily and slowly inject it back when there is less of it?
2023-01-22T23:21:57 < josuah> like some flux capacitor
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--- Day changed ma tammi 23 2023
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2023-01-23T00:56:44 < josuah> that joke might not have been appropriate if troubleshooting this has some burden. sorry if you did bother
2023-01-23T01:03:51 < Steffanx-> He'll survive
2023-01-23T01:04:37 < catphish_> i'll live
2023-01-23T01:04:51 < josuah> I understand how central an inverter is for all kind of problems through https://www.tesla.com/blog/induction-versus-dc-brushless-motors
2023-01-23T01:04:57 < catphish_> i am seriously contemplating harming myself or others though, this bug is a pain in the ass
2023-01-23T01:06:05 < Steffanx-> Have Laurenceb come over and let him solve it in mathlab
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2023-01-23T01:06:19 < josuah> for a plain motor noob like me, it looks like something quite fundamental.
2023-01-23T01:06:59 < qyx> never ever consider any motor fundamental
2023-01-23T01:08:55 < josuah> qyx: you mean that making them work is all about trying and experimenting?
2023-01-23T01:09:33 < qyx> it is like rf circuits and antennas
2023-01-23T01:10:07 < qyx> you either 1. have experience or 2. very complex knowledge or 3. willingness to try until you succeed
2023-01-23T01:10:29 < catphish_> motors are horrible things, just when you understand the circuit, something comes and injects some current where you're not expecting
2023-01-23T01:10:53 < zyp> catphish_, so if you're getting too much current, that means you're braking too hard…
2023-01-23T01:12:12 < zyp> i.e. too much negative slip?
2023-01-23T01:16:36 < catphish_> zyp: you'd think so, but i strongly suspect that's not the case, the slip is tiny
2023-01-23T01:18:59 < zyp> but current/torque potential increases with slip, right?
2023-01-23T01:19:24 < zyp> i.e. if the slip was too low, the current would also be limited, right=
2023-01-23T01:20:07 < catphish_> in theory current is proportional to slip, my algorithm somewhat depends on this
2023-01-23T01:20:19 < catphish_> but when working as a generator, weird things happen
2023-01-23T01:21:01 < zyp> so, have you tried with a smaller negative slip?
2023-01-23T01:21:05 < josuah> qyx: live example of what you said, (case 1. 2. 3.) from catphish_ here
2023-01-23T01:21:43 < qyx> another live example is me, I have none of the three
2023-01-23T01:22:48 < catphish_> i have (1) and (3) :)
2023-01-23T01:26:29 < catphish_> zyp: you raise a good point at zero slip, there's zero current, so the fact that my current rises excessively can only be the result of some amount of slip
2023-01-23T01:27:05 < catphish_> i thought my slip was tiny, but it's more than zero, and there's no current at zero slip
2023-01-23T01:27:31 < zyp> as I understand it, you regulate pwm duty and slip?
2023-01-23T01:27:45 < catphish_> correct
2023-01-23T01:27:47 < zyp> and current increases too much for pwm duty to deal with?
2023-01-23T01:28:28 < zyp> if so, «use less slip» seems pretty obvious :)
2023-01-23T01:28:57 < catphish_> PWM duty isn't simple like a buck converter, i generate an AC voltage by adjusting the duty cycles of 3 half bridges
2023-01-23T01:29:19 < catphish_> so 0V is 50% on all 3 half bridges
2023-01-23T01:29:31 < catphish_> (standard 3 phase inverter)
2023-01-23T01:30:03 < zyp> yeah yeah, SVPWM or whatever, call it ±100% duty in a rotating frame
2023-01-23T01:30:11 < catphish_> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Ahmed-Abdalrahman-2/publication/259356472/figure/fig5/AS:670039388717090@1536761247847/Three-phase-inverter-circuit.png
2023-01-23T01:30:13 < catphish_> like this
2023-01-23T01:30:25 < zyp> naturally
2023-01-23T01:30:40 < zyp> that's common with bldc control
2023-01-23T01:30:49 < zyp> it's just the slip stuff that's unfamiliar to me :)
2023-01-23T01:30:52 < catphish_> yep, it's a very standard configuration
2023-01-23T01:31:15 < catphish_> and i use it to output 3 sine waves, 120 degrees out of phase, centered at 50% duty cycle
2023-01-23T01:33:40 < catphish_> the concept of my algorithm is that a rotary encoder increments the sine wave output at the same speed the motor turns, and then a requested torque adjusts that output frequency by +/- 3Hz of slip
2023-01-23T01:34:21 < zyp> do you want that to be in absolute frequency, not a percentage?
2023-01-23T01:34:32 < catphish_> and then the user programs a current (amps per Hz of slip) and the voltage is adjusted with a PID to keep the current at the requested ratio
2023-01-23T01:34:52 < catphish_> yes, i'm quite sure it should be an absolute frequency
2023-01-23T01:35:24 < catphish_> literature often expresses slip as a % and i'm quite sure that's nonsense based on an assumed supply frequency
2023-01-23T01:35:25 < zyp> right, because you need slip even when it's not rotating
2023-01-23T01:35:42 < catphish_> exactly
2023-01-23T01:35:45 < zyp> fair enough
2023-01-23T01:36:42 < catphish_> as far as the magnetic fields are concerned, a 3Hz difference is the same difference regardless of the absolute speed
2023-01-23T01:37:25 < catphish_> the rotor doesn't know how fast it's spinning, it's only interested in its relative speed compared to the rotating magnetic field around it
2023-01-23T01:38:20 < catphish_> the concept is that regardless of the speed, what matters is the current in the stator, and the slip
2023-01-23T01:39:31 < catphish_> setting the slip is easy, but setting the stator curent is proving difficult
2023-01-23T01:46:04 < qyx> zyp: were it you doing something with crosspoint switches?
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2023-01-23T05:11:35 < aandrew> "One of the main differences is that much less rotor heat is generated with the DC brushless drive. Rotor cooling is easier and peak point efficiency is generally higher for this drive. The DC brushless drive can also operate at unity power factor, whereas the best power factor for the induction drive is about 85 percent. This means that the peak point energy efficiency for a DC brushless drive will 
2023-01-23T05:11:41 < aandrew> typically be a few percentage points higher than for an induction drive."
2023-01-23T05:11:44 < aandrew> lol no
2023-01-23T05:11:56 < aandrew> ACIMs are high 90s efficient when coupled with a good inverter
2023-01-23T05:12:56 < aandrew> rotor cooling is perhaps a fair point but an ACIM in a vehicular application could be cooled quite easily with air from forward motion and a forced air if needed
2023-01-23T05:14:03 < aandrew> I'd say the simplicity of the ACIM, particularly the lack of rare-earth magnets needed is something that should be put into more consideration, but obviously the companies making EVs have put a great deal of thought into the tradeoffs and all have opted for BLDC motors
2023-01-23T05:14:19 < aandrew> mind you they all also use a single large motor rather than putting four smaller motors at each wheel
2023-01-23T05:14:28 < fenugrec> well ACIM doesn't have heat problems related to curie point, although varnish temperature is still a limit
2023-01-23T05:15:10 < aandrew> yes, as it would be with BLDC as well
2023-01-23T05:15:12 < fenugrec> ACIM is so elegant. Stator windings, lump of alu+steel for the rotor, you're down
2023-01-23T05:15:19 < fenugrec> *done
2023-01-23T05:15:33 < aandrew> yep I agree. spent 13y in industrial power electronics designing reduced voltage soft starters and VFDs
2023-01-23T05:16:14 < fenugrec> that reminds me, my 15HP rotophase motor squeals, even after replacing bearings. what gives
2023-01-23T05:16:37 < fenugrec> even without the fan + shroud. Really puzzled, at least it quiets down after ~ 5min warmup
2023-01-23T05:16:59 < aandrew> ... squeals? is there anything that is rubbing that shouldn't be?
2023-01-23T05:17:47 < fenugrec> I really can't imagine what it could be... Even removed the front dust seal that was mangled anyway, so there's really not much left - 2 bearings and a rotor
2023-01-23T05:18:46 < fenugrec> It's a bitch to take apart but maybe there's a sloppy fit between shaft-bearing or brg-housing
2023-01-23T05:19:52 < aandrew> that is weird, my money would have been on bearings or MAYBE a rubber seal
2023-01-23T05:21:10 < rustyaxe> probably ghosts.
2023-01-23T05:23:42 < fenugrec> I'll record audio next time I run it. Definitely has a "posessed screech" vibe
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2023-01-23T09:36:00 < zyp> qyx, yes
2023-01-23T09:36:12 < zyp> well, doing and doing, more thinking about doing
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2023-01-23T11:46:55 < Laurence_b> IGBT / LGBT
2023-01-23T11:47:05 < Laurence_b> coincidence? I think not
2023-01-23T11:51:56 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/sovietvisuals/status/1605970082873557002#m
2023-01-23T11:54:52 < jpa-> laurence_b / be_unclear   coincidence?
2023-01-23T11:55:05 < Laurence_b> Trans-sister
2023-01-23T11:56:32 < BrainDamage> I feel like few years down the line we'll have laurenceb telling us the real tale how he "hyronically" had gay sex for the lulz
2023-01-23T11:57:07 < jpa-> and we will wish for it just as much as we wish for his daily links now
2023-01-23T12:09:06 < mawk> lol BrainDamage 
2023-01-23T12:14:31 < karlp> lol qyx, what data sheet is that shorted esd diodes from?
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2023-01-23T14:55:01 -!- tct is now known as jbo
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2023-01-23T16:19:32 < catphish_> is Laurence_b two people, one of them an engineer and one of them an escaped psychiatric patient?
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2023-01-23T16:49:48 < zyp> no, yes, yes
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2023-01-23T17:03:28 < englishman> how can you be so sure that laurence is the weird one
2023-01-23T17:09:16 < karlp> because this exists, https://github.com/karlp/zypsnips/blob/master/Laurenceb.txt
2023-01-23T17:09:20 < karlp> and we don't have it for anyone else
2023-01-23T17:09:51 < karlp> aww, ircpaint is gone
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2023-01-23T17:20:49 < qyx> solution problematicer :D
2023-01-23T17:20:57 < aandrew> lol
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2023-01-23T17:25:37 < ventYl> i have new most unpopular task
2023-01-23T17:25:54 < aandrew> you're porting your STM32 code to PIC16?
2023-01-23T17:26:12 < ventYl> fixing windows 10 drivers
2023-01-23T17:26:29 < aandrew> I thin I'd rather port STM32 code to PIC16
2023-01-23T17:26:37 < ventYl> yeah me too
2023-01-23T17:27:53 < ventYl> no chineese risc-v-based MCU manufacturer could come up with tech stack so fucked up, microsoft actually managed to deliver
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2023-01-23T17:44:48 < karlp> don't worry, linux is removing rndis, it will be much easier to interop with windows now.....
2023-01-23T17:47:15 < karlp> heh, someone has joined github, filed their first ever bug,
2023-01-23T17:47:23 < jbo> qyx, got those LiFePo cells delivered - they seem pretty nice.
2023-01-23T17:48:10 < karlp> and it's against libopencm3 not building with gcc 4.6, because we use attributes for deprecated that were released with gcc 6 in, well, 6.1 was 2016.
2023-01-23T17:51:29 < qyx> tell him he needs gcc12
2023-01-23T18:00:32 < fenugrec> "but how am I gonna build on mah amiga"
2023-01-23T18:22:50 < jbo> funny, I just had that conversation with a c64 dude
2023-01-23T18:29:52 < ventYl> for fuck sake microsoft, are you completely retarded?
2023-01-23T18:30:17 < ventYl> there's the 22H2 update for windows, but apparently it is almost impossible to test in virtual environment as of now
2023-01-23T18:30:43 < ventYl> the the ISO download tool farted an error that I have to be logged in as administrator to download fucking windows 10 ISO
2023-01-23T18:40:57 < jpa-> why not just download with browser?
2023-01-23T18:41:57 < jpa-> or does it force some weird tool on windows, on linux https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows10ISO gives download links
2023-01-23T18:42:01 < jbo> https://www.digikey.ch/en/products/detail/molex/0193230010/3884491
2023-01-23T18:42:04 < jbo> "in stock: 2" lol
2023-01-23T18:43:15 < ventYl> jpa-: google result for windows 10 iso download redirected me to some page written in slovak language which I did not understand
2023-01-23T18:43:26 < ventYl> where there was only an option to upgrade my windows or download iso generator tool
2023-01-23T18:43:39 < ventYl> which then farted dumb error ^^
2023-01-23T18:43:41 < qyx> jbo: tme is the right shop for such things in eu
2023-01-23T18:43:50 < jbo> ventYl, when you download & run the "ISO generator tool" you can choose an option which is just "place ISO here"
2023-01-23T18:44:06 < jbo> i.e. you end up with an ISO somewhere on your filesystem.
2023-01-23T18:44:19 < ventYl> jbo: you don't, if you are not using administrator account by default :D
2023-01-23T18:44:35 < jbo> ventYl, wtf - I had no idea.
2023-01-23T18:44:43 < jbo> that sounds stupid
2023-01-23T18:44:49 < jbo> qyx, thanks!
2023-01-23T18:45:02 < ventYl> jbo: i had a noice, a few days ago I have tried to install four different MS-provided packages and their installers all failed
2023-01-23T18:45:26 < ventYl> after asking for administrator password using UAC
2023-01-23T18:45:43 < jpa-> ventYl: was it even a microsoft site? :)
2023-01-23T18:45:47 < ventYl> so I guess that everyone inside microsoft is retarded enough to use administrator account
2023-01-23T18:45:54 < jbo> ventYl, how needy are you? if you want I can fire up my windows machine, download the ISO for you and share it.
2023-01-23T18:46:03 < ventYl> jpa-: yes
2023-01-23T18:46:46 < ventYl> jbo: I have an old win 10 image on my linux drive. but for various reasons, process of transferring it onto windows partition has negative effects on my mental health
2023-01-23T18:46:57 < qyx> jbo: hes just ranting because he needs to WORK
2023-01-23T18:47:05 < jbo> ventYl, my offer stands
2023-01-23T18:47:18 < jbo> qyx, ah, I see. well, I have been there in the past so I'm happy to help out if it is actually useful.
2023-01-23T18:48:36 < ventYl> windows 10 ISO is just the first step unfortunately
2023-01-23T18:49:18 < jbo> stop hating start doing?
2023-01-23T18:49:33 < jbo> these things tend to not getting easier by ranting.
2023-01-23T18:50:09 < ventYl> yeah, this is like third or fourth attempt to do pretty much simple stuff
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2023-01-23T19:17:56 < Steffanx-> Pebkac is real
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2023-01-23T19:52:10 < jbo> did zener diodes become more expensive?
2023-01-23T19:54:03 < ventYl> jpa-: btw I just read an article, that in February, Microsoft will take down win 10 download links
2023-01-23T19:54:19 < ventYl> I am ranting correctly, just a few days earlier
2023-01-23T19:54:29 < jbo> is that article some random blog post or an actual microsoft source?
2023-01-23T20:02:53 < ventYl> jbo: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/d/windows-10-home/d76qx4bznwk4 scroll all the way to the bottom
2023-01-23T20:03:12 < ventYl> a bit confusing is that page refers to windows 10 home, while comment refers to just windows 10
2023-01-23T20:03:49 < ventYl> pro page has it too
2023-01-23T20:14:36 < Steffanx-> So get windows 11 :)
2023-01-23T20:15:54 < ventYl> I guess our customer with Win 10 would also expect our driver to get fixed
2023-01-23T20:15:58 < ventYl> customers*
2023-01-23T20:16:09 < ventYl> but it get increasingly hard to test it
2023-01-23T20:16:46 < Steffanx-> Oh W10 is EOL somewhere in October 2025 
2023-01-23T20:17:11 < Steffanx-> They still provide the W10 IE test images right?
2023-01-23T20:17:16 < ventYl> nope
2023-01-23T20:17:31 < ventYl> nor windows 10 hyper-v dev environments
2023-01-23T20:18:03 < Steffanx-> Hmm I see 
2023-01-23T20:18:44 < ventYl> it even seems that images of older win 10 revisions were removed
2023-01-23T20:19:01 < ventYl> i've found some 3rd party page with links to older win 10 images and they were all 403
2023-01-23T20:20:13 < Steffanx-> I guess I'll have to store my W10 isos somewhere then.. 
2023-01-23T20:21:00 < ventYl> to me, it is actually a bloombug
2023-01-23T20:21:13 < ventYl> soon, it will cost shitload to maintain windows 10 driver dev env
2023-01-23T20:21:21 < ventYl> and customer will have to pay it
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2023-01-23T21:25:19 < jpa-> ventYl: to me it sounds like it is the last day you can buy license, i don't see anything saying they would take down the download link
2023-01-23T21:28:36 < ventYl> i wouldn't be much surprised if they removed links to images too
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2023-01-23T22:20:17 < jpa-> you can still download windows 8.1 also
2023-01-23T22:23:55 < karlp> hah, yeah, the VMs are gone :)
2023-01-23T22:24:32 < karlp> don't worry, use this paid third party service to test browser apps...
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--- Day changed ti tammi 24 2023
2023-01-24T00:19:24 < qyx> any favourite boost vreg for 5 V -> 24 V, 0.5 A out?
2023-01-24T00:28:08 < qyx> tps43061 looks good
2023-01-24T00:49:01 < aandrew> hm, haven't done boost in a while
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2023-01-24T01:56:19 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/pic/media%2FFnG5yIBWAAMgCdj.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
2023-01-24T01:56:20 < Laurence_b> lol
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2023-01-24T02:30:54 < catphish_> my motor almost works properly now :)
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2023-01-24T07:58:21 < jpa-> qyx: that's a big boost ratio, make sure to have low resistance inductor and input caps
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2023-01-24T10:32:36 < qyx> jpa-: yeah the thing is low power by definition but 200 m of cable makes wonders so I need a bit higher voltage
2023-01-24T10:33:25 < jpa-> if isolation is needed and voltage is not that critical, you could also just run a transformer open-loop
2023-01-24T10:56:16 < drzacek> C0? so is it 8bit or 32 bit? if it's 32bit, what does it have that makes "porting from 8 bit easier"? 
2023-01-24T10:56:18 < drzacek> hello there
2023-01-24T10:57:18 < zyp> drzacek, low pricetag?
2023-01-24T10:57:50 < drzacek> that does sound like a good argument
2023-01-24T10:57:54  * drzacek checks price
2023-01-24T10:58:17 < qyx> maybe easier is not the right word for marketing guys
2023-01-24T10:58:33 < drzacek> I dont get it
2023-01-24T10:58:37 < qyx> I would say priceasible
2023-01-24T10:58:41 < drzacek> g0 offers more and is cheaper
2023-01-24T10:58:49 < qyx> thats the catch
2023-01-24T10:59:02 < drzacek> am gonna stick to g0 for now
2023-01-24T10:59:12 < drzacek> and milk that sweet juicy 64mhz
2023-01-24T10:59:19 < jpa-> it's for developers who have 8-bit brain, can't have too complex or many peripherals
2023-01-24T10:59:39 < drzacek> jpa-, ha!
2023-01-24T11:00:11 < drzacek> just out of curiosity
2023-01-24T11:00:22 < drzacek> what did stm32f1xx used to cost, lets say - 4 years ago?
2023-01-24T11:00:59 < qyx> the last time I used F1 was in 2013
2023-01-24T11:01:08 < zyp> depends who you bought it from
2023-01-24T11:01:09 < drzacek> back then I was still 328p
2023-01-24T11:01:17 < qyx> but under $2 iirc
2023-01-24T11:01:21 < drzacek> okay
2023-01-24T11:01:28 < drzacek> so the 70 cent g030 is still reasonable?
2023-01-24T11:02:20 < qyx> hard to say, I am using 8€ g4 in the last design and calling it reasonable
2023-01-24T11:02:50 < drzacek> if it has features that you need
2023-01-24T11:04:41 < drzacek> for the time being I only need something reasonable fast and 1x spi + 1x i2c and handfull of gpio
2023-01-24T11:06:29 < qyx> I though the shortage is over and now I cannot buy opamps and muxes I designed 2 weeks ago
2023-01-24T11:06:44 < qyx> with
2023-01-24T11:07:07 < jpa-> said so
2023-01-24T11:07:17 < jpa-> no point trying to do anything
2023-01-24T11:10:02 < qyx> going to rill those 3 shorted vias https://bin.jvnv.net/file/1VPNP/Screenshot_2023-01-24_10-09-39.png
2023-01-24T11:10:11 < qyx> I guess I need something thinner than 2 mm
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2023-01-24T11:22:01 < qyx> great, short is unshorted
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2023-01-24T11:28:00 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/isRmR
2023-01-24T11:51:36 < n0toose[m]> i have a module in a file called mic.c connected using I2S and i'm trying to modify (within the file) variables from a callback called HAL_Rx_Cpltcallback (that's also present in the file)
2023-01-24T11:52:49 < n0toose[m]> my debugger says that it knows where my variable is, that being called (called++;), but for some reason, even if the callback does get executed (breakpoint), the uint32_t doesn't get modified
2023-01-24T11:53:38 < zyp> sounds like a missing volatile or something like that
2023-01-24T11:56:07 < zyp> if you have a variable foo and do something like while(foo == 0) { /* wait and do nothing */ }, if foo is not volatile, the compiler will deduce that since the loop does nothing, the value of foo can't change and skip checking it again
2023-01-24T11:56:38 < zyp> so that code typically gets compiled equivalent to if(foo == 0) { while(true) {} }
2023-01-24T11:57:07 < jpa-> also if the variables / functions are in separate files, be sure you have "extern" declarations correctly
2023-01-24T11:57:20 < jpa-> to avoid having two variables accidentally
2023-01-24T11:58:22 < n0toose[m]> we do, we also have extern in main, and it's marked as a volatile in mic.c
2023-01-24T11:58:31 < n0toose[m]> but checking in once again just to be sure, thanks
2023-01-24T11:59:30 < n0toose[m]> also, extern uint32_t called;, i mean
2023-01-24T12:00:08 < zyp> you need it to be extern volatile uint32_t called;
2023-01-24T12:00:52 < zyp> if one translation unit thinks it's volatile and the other doesn't, you'll still have the same issue
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2023-01-24T12:10:00 < mawk> who did the thing with nfc and mifare here? I forgot
2023-01-24T12:10:02 < mawk> was it you aandrew ?
2023-01-24T12:10:17 < mawk> you said you used a nrf51 or 52 for that
2023-01-24T12:10:33 < n0toose[m]> we did some additional testing, apparently if we set an already declared variable inside of the interrupt, in the same function or anything, setting the variable to a new value just gets straight up ignored
2023-01-24T12:10:45 < n0toose[m]> (and just moved everything to main for goodness' sake)
2023-01-24T12:11:26 < mawk> if it's not marked as volatile everywhere it's used the compiler might optimize out checks for the new value
2023-01-24T12:12:04 < mawk> e.g. it might put the value in a register at the beginning of your function and never reload it since it's not supposed to change if it's not marked volatile
2023-01-24T12:12:44 < n0toose[m]> in this case, it's a pointer we're trying to alter, but i'll see
2023-01-24T12:13:03 < mawk> just add volatile in the header like zyp said
2023-01-24T12:13:16 < n0toose[m]> everything is volatile ._.
2023-01-24T12:13:28 < n0toose[m]> we put it all in main.c too
2023-01-24T12:13:29 < mawk> you wrote "extern uint31_t ..."
2023-01-24T12:13:34 < zyp> are you trying to alter what it's pointing to, or alter the value it's pointing to?
2023-01-24T12:13:35 < mawk> with no volatile
2023-01-24T12:14:07 < n0toose[m]> alter the value it's pointing to, we changed the code so that there's less complexity as extern volatile was a bit ineffective
2023-01-24T12:14:09 < n0toose[m]> and just put everything to main
2023-01-24T12:14:16 < jpa-> you can also step through it instruction-by-instruction, to see if it actually writes to memory, and then see the place where it is read to see what piece of memory it is reading
2023-01-24T12:14:16 < n0toose[m]> the callback function is in main as well
2023-01-24T12:14:17 < zyp> remember that with pointers, it can both be a volatile pointer or a pointer to volatile
2023-01-24T12:14:33 < mawk> volatile *T volatile; 
2023-01-24T12:14:41 < zyp> yeah
2023-01-24T12:14:50 < mawk> volatile means bird in french
2023-01-24T12:14:58 < mawk> flying creature
2023-01-24T12:15:33 < zyp> «volatile int* foo» and «int* volatile foo» are different things
2023-01-24T12:15:57 < zyp> and either may break or work depending on what you're trying to do with it
2023-01-24T12:16:13 < n0toose[m]> as mentioned, we stepped through it instruction-by-instruction and the memory address seems correct... but the "value of the pointer not being volatile" sounds like a thing
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2023-01-24T12:17:01 < n0toose[m]> whatever, thanks for the directions!
2023-01-24T12:17:07 < jpa-> so you see an instruction executing a store to the memory, but when you read out that memory location in debugger the value is not what the instruction wrote?
2023-01-24T12:17:54 < zyp> note that instruction here means assembly instruction, not source line
2023-01-24T12:18:16 < zyp> I suspect those are getting mixed up :)
2023-01-24T12:18:33 < jpa-> when in doubt, volatile and -O0 everything and seek a new job ;)
2023-01-24T12:18:42 < zyp> haha
2023-01-24T12:19:05 < n0toose[m]> basically, yeah. it's as if the write was absolutely ignored in the next line itself, which is what makes me think that mawk's advice probably correct, but the person i'm trying to program with right now is seriously not taking a break even if he should :)
2023-01-24T12:19:23 < n0toose[m]> so excuse the lack of consistency in my accounts
2023-01-24T12:20:00 < n0toose[m]> and yes, i meant source line and not assembly instruction, i thought that i was not the person confusing that
2023-01-24T12:20:16 < n0toose[m]> but then again i shouldn't have assumed that because i absolutely suck at this
2023-01-24T12:20:20 < jpa-> i meant assembly instruction, that's what the CPU sees anyway
2023-01-24T12:20:49 < zyp> trying to step through source lines of optimized code is an exercise in frustration :)
2023-01-24T12:21:02 < jpa-> source level debugging is only good for simple or abstract bugs
2023-01-24T12:21:23 < n0toose[m]> shouldn't the source line technically just be a mov('s) anyway?
2023-01-24T12:21:29 < zyp> no
2023-01-24T12:21:38 < jpa-> you can't mov to memory on ARM
2023-01-24T12:21:59 < n0toose[m]> sorry, i also do x86 assembly stuff that i also suck at and it's easy to mix it up
2023-01-24T12:22:40 < n0toose[m]> i'm more of a hobbyist student rather than a professional
2023-01-24T12:23:03 < zyp> problem is the same in any case, each source line can turn into a bunch of instructions, which might get mixed up with instructions coming from other source lines
2023-01-24T12:23:15 < n0toose[m]> okay that's too many inferiority complex indications for at least a decade
2023-01-24T12:23:52 < zyp> and if the compiler is optimizing out a load and a store, stepping through the source line doesn't tell you whether a memory access is actually happening
2023-01-24T12:24:33 < jpa-> https://godbolt.org/z/hz493hnEq   here is example, you can see the callback would write every time even with wrong volatility because function ends, but main would only read the pointer address once
2023-01-24T12:26:30 < zyp> and here's the correct volatility: https://godbolt.org/z/KTe5MscEM
2023-01-24T12:26:47 < zyp> assembly is very subtly different
2023-01-24T12:50:41 < jbo> ventYl, got your windows issue sorted out?
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2023-01-24T13:11:15 < catphish_> i've distilled my motor problem down to this: good: https://openinverter.org/forum/download/file.php?id=21240&mode=view vs bad: https://openinverter.org/forum/download/file.php?id=21239&mode=view
2023-01-24T13:12:06 < jpa-> what's up with the voltage dropping so suddenly?
2023-01-24T13:12:56 < catphish_> jpa-: i added that on purpose, i'll explain why momentarily
2023-01-24T13:13:49 < catphish_> in short, my voltage output PID sees no reason to reduce voltage when the current is already at its set point, so it continues putting unnecessarily high voltage into the motor, for whatever reason, that causes energy to be stored which causes too much current to flow when we start up in the opposite direction
2023-01-24T13:14:20 < catphish_> in the good example, by maintaining a high slip, we force the current to be controlled by voltage, so the PID reduces voltage and the problem goes away
2023-01-24T13:14:50 < catphish_> the reason for the sharp drop to zero is i hoped that by resetting the voltage to zero when the current was zero, we'd end up back with a blank slate, but it didn't work
2023-01-24T13:14:58 < n0toose[m]> the problem i had was basically this https://stackoverflow.com/questions/70048351/stm32-i2s-input-not-working-when-using-dma, still not resolved and just changing the order of functions was not it :D
2023-01-24T13:15:01 < n0toose[m]> but im getting there
2023-01-24T13:17:03 < n0toose[m]> (as in, it was already that way)
2023-01-24T13:17:06 < qyx> did you read the reference manual on how the ADC DMA works?
2023-01-24T13:17:46 < n0toose[m]> yeah, i know that it doesn't seem like it because we've reached the stage of desperation where we look up random stackoverflow answers on the internet
2023-01-24T13:18:26 < n0toose[m]> but at least it comforts me to know that i'm not the only person that evidently wants to throw hardware out of the window
2023-01-24T13:18:33 < qyx> so you are using dma on f401?
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2023-01-24T13:19:18 < n0toose[m]> yeah
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2023-01-24T13:42:22 < n0toose[m]> it just doesn't want to overwrite a variable
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2023-01-24T13:59:34 < karlp> that stackoverflow description is completley different to what you were describing here, in my opinion :)
2023-01-24T14:00:36 < jpa-> i don't see any similarities either, except that they are both confusing and seem to need just back-to-basics low level debugging
2023-01-24T14:07:22 < karlp> if you see it "writing to your variable" but it's "not your variable" be careful you don't have variables declared in .h files...
2023-01-24T14:07:33 < karlp> you end up with multiple instances....
2023-01-24T14:07:52 < karlp> no amount of static will help you...
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2023-01-24T16:47:02 < ventYl> jbo: today I went to replace fuel pump in my car. fuck off windows
2023-01-24T16:49:58 < jbo> lol
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2023-01-24T17:02:05 < ventYl> connector inside fuel tank was molten due to the corroded contact
2023-01-24T17:05:07 < mawk> I fixed our programming rig
2023-01-24T17:05:18 < mawk> I changed some suspicious pogo pins but it wasn't the problem
2023-01-24T17:05:38 < mawk> actually the raspberry pi controlling it has a gpio that died
2023-01-24T17:05:42 < mawk> from ESD or something 
2023-01-24T17:05:44 < mawk> quite weird
2023-01-24T17:06:05 < jbo> whenever I built programming jigs with raspberrypi or similar I used optocouplers
2023-01-24T17:06:22 < mawk> we have mosfets I think, but that wasn't good enough 
2023-01-24T17:06:25 < mawk> optocoupler is a good idea
2023-01-24T17:06:31 < jbo> gotta have some TVS diodes too
2023-01-24T17:06:42 < jbo> have fun getting a new rpi these days
2023-01-24T17:06:44 < mawk> we have an updated version of the board with better esd protection but I'm too lazy to set it up
2023-01-24T17:06:47 < mawk> lol
2023-01-24T17:06:53 < mawk> we have a lot in stock don't worry
2023-01-24T17:06:59 < jbo> can I get one or two?
2023-01-24T17:07:00 < zyp> protip: design the hardware so it can self test
2023-01-24T17:07:06 < mawk> several of our products are based on π
2023-01-24T17:07:06 < jbo> zyp +1
2023-01-24T17:07:10 < mawk> so we have to have it
2023-01-24T17:07:24 < mawk> yeah zyp that's a good idea in general
2023-01-24T17:07:27 < BrainDamage> I used to consider the boards disposable
2023-01-24T17:07:31 < mawk> we're out of pins here though 
2023-01-24T17:07:43 < mawk> we would need I/O expander
2023-01-24T17:07:52 < jbo> mawk, Steffanx-, I've been to the netherlands over the weekend. what happened to your prices? Usually I buy random crap there just because it's much cheaper than here but it's not really like that anymore :s
2023-01-24T17:08:14 < zyp> mawk, the trick to self-test ios is to loopback connect them
2023-01-24T17:08:15 < mawk> inflation 
2023-01-24T17:08:18 < mawk> lots of inflation 
2023-01-24T17:08:33 < Steffanx-> Inflation happened indeed
2023-01-24T17:08:33 < mawk> but you can't read and write at the same time no?
2023-01-24T17:08:38 < mawk> ah yeah you can have a pullup
2023-01-24T17:08:41 < mawk> nevermind 
2023-01-24T17:08:45 < mawk> good idea indeed
2023-01-24T17:09:10 < zyp> orbtrace testjig is loopback based: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/imd1f.jpg
2023-01-24T17:09:11 < Steffanx-> Stroopwafels are still alright, jbo 
2023-01-24T17:09:20 < mawk> but with relays or mosfet in the loop it would make a latching circuit
2023-01-24T17:09:26 < mawk> we would need a way to disconnect the loopback
2023-01-24T17:09:40 < mawk> nice
2023-01-24T17:10:22 < jbo> zyp, I still adore that punch-through button cockextender
2023-01-24T17:10:54 < zyp> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/813547772337979442/879717834769457192/unknown.png
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2023-01-24T17:11:42 < Sadale> discord ew
2023-01-24T17:11:47 < jbo> discord ew indeed
2023-01-24T17:11:59  * Sadale declares that zyp is his enemy :P
2023-01-24T17:12:26 < jbo> naaaah
2023-01-24T17:16:14 < zyp> jbo, especially the button top
2023-01-24T17:18:04 < zyp> it was originally a hollow cylinder that broke off another 3d print, I put it on the hotplate to melt and squeeze down the top surface :p
2023-01-24T17:18:32 < jbo> lol
2023-01-24T17:21:22 < BrainDamage> what's the press mechanism from?
2023-01-24T17:21:42 < jbo> those are regular "toggle clamps" you can get from anywhere 
2023-01-24T17:33:52 < karlp> I dn't get what you mean by loopback based?
2023-01-24T17:34:04 < karlp> what's self-testing? the jig is testing itself? to make sure it's still viable?
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2023-01-24T17:43:34 < jbo> zyp, they demand answers!
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2023-01-24T18:43:44 < jpa-> karlp: fpga probably toggles pins to check that they go to the header ok
2023-01-24T18:44:17 < jpa-> (and that level translators work)
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2023-01-24T18:53:55 < zyp> karlp, the DUT tests itself with minimal active support from the jig
2023-01-24T18:55:06 < zyp> e.g. instead of having something active to test ios against, ios are looped back into each other, so the fpga sets some pins and reads back the result on other pins
2023-01-24T18:58:33 < zyp> my employer likes hooking LEDs to ADC capable pins and tests them by setting the pins in pullup/pulldown mode and using the ADC to read the drop across the internal pull resistor
2023-01-24T18:58:45 < zyp> which is another cute trick :)
2023-01-24T19:19:08 < qyx> bleh so much leakage
2023-01-24T19:28:09 < karlp> was "unknown.png" the schjematic of the jig?
2023-01-24T19:29:06 < karlp> you flash test firmwar eon it, test as much of hte hardware you can like that, sure, but ... that's not going to fly for a lot of things....
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2023-01-24T21:28:44 < qyx> so, I bought two TPS6282533 for a proto, I used one, one should be left
2023-01-24T21:29:07 < qyx> T+60 min, I found an empty bag
2023-01-24T21:29:21 < qyx> T+90 min, still nothing
2023-01-24T21:31:08 < qyx> now, a) have some sleep b) wait 3 days for another mouser order c) desolder one d) use TPS6282518 and yolo
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2023-01-24T21:51:55 < zyp> karlp, yes
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2023-01-24T22:24:00 < catphish_> i'm really starting to understand this induction motor problem now, i wrote a rambling explanation here https://openinverter.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=51885#p51885
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2023-01-24T22:42:37 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/pic/card_img%2F1617857637063790596%2FSAEbBTus%3Fformat%3Djpg%26name%3D800x419
2023-01-24T22:42:39 < Laurence_b> retard face
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2023-01-24T22:59:32 < catphish_> grr, i really need to compile a new IRC client
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2023-01-24T23:12:44 < karlp> that sounds exceptionally unexciting...
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2023-01-24T23:30:00 < catphish_> it'll be exciting when Laurence_b's links no longer crash my client
2023-01-24T23:32:10 < specing> 0.o
2023-01-24T23:33:36 < Steffanx-> Don't click em?
2023-01-24T23:33:39 < Steffanx-> Open
2023-01-24T23:33:41 < karlp> .... what client was _crashing_ on links?!
2023-01-24T23:42:41 < catphish_> hexchat seems to have trouble parsing links, i'm not really sure why it needs to, but it can crash it
2023-01-24T23:43:13 < catphish_> latest version has a fix for "escaping already escaped URLs when opening them"
2023-01-24T23:43:28 < catphish_> the already escaped chars in Laurence_b's links confuses it
2023-01-24T23:43:50 < catphish_> none of that makes any sense, i don't see why it can't pass them to the browser as-is
2023-01-24T23:44:08 < catphish_> or indeed why double escaping would crash the client, but it does
2023-01-24T23:44:36 < rustyaxe> sounds like hexchat is as awful as it's parent was :P
2023-01-24T23:44:56 < catphish_> maybe, it works for me though otherwise
2023-01-24T23:45:26 < rustyaxe> to be fair i think last time i looked at xchat was in like 2006 and was like "newp this is awful" and went back to irssi in tmux :p
2023-01-24T23:45:37 < catphish_> i feel like there must be another person out there who understands induction motors well who could help me, but i've yet to find that person
2023-01-24T23:45:53 < catphish_> hexchat is just "simple"
2023-01-24T23:46:11 < catphish_> but a proper GUI, i've never understood the appeal of IRC in a terminal
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2023-01-24T23:48:31 < catphish_> i'd quite like a more full featured client though, something with inline link previewing like proprietary chat systems have
2023-01-24T23:49:23 < rustyaxe> yea i'd rather my irc client not try to grok html :)
2023-01-24T23:49:41 < zyp> biggest appeal of a cli irc client is that it can just run on a server somewhere and be used from anywhere over ssh :p
2023-01-24T23:49:52 < rustyaxe> that too
2023-01-24T23:50:35 < BrainDamage> you can have a hybrid solution by using weechat + glowing (pedo)bear for a gui
2023-01-24T23:51:02 < BrainDamage> iirc it has link previews
2023-01-24T23:51:30 < BrainDamage> and weechat is quite powerful
2023-01-24T23:53:16 < catphish_> since i consistently use IRC on 2 computers now it would definitely be useful to have some kind of bouncer to i can log in from either and use the same nick, see all the backlog, etc
2023-01-24T23:53:45 < rustyaxe> i vaguely remember crashing windows machines running mirc by sending DCC SEND 127.0.0.1 139
2023-01-24T23:53:57 < catphish_> but i'd rather the bouncer and client were properly integrated rather than just pretending to be an IRC server
2023-01-24T23:55:19 < zyp> sounds like you want quassle or whatever it was called
2023-01-24T23:55:33 < zyp> quassel
2023-01-24T23:55:52 < sauce> i use quassel, it is okay
2023-01-24T23:56:34 < sauce> tbh being able to open his links is probably not an ideal criterion for much of anything
2023-01-24T23:57:01 < karlp> I just ctrl-click ont he text and "preview" it by. just.. opening it.
2023-01-24T23:57:09 < karlp> and I jsut don't bother previewing lolrence.
2023-01-24T23:57:50 < rustyaxe> i just dont click links from irc. it's safer that way
2023-01-24T23:58:28 < rustyaxe> Never again will i see an elder man trying to insert a mason jar in his bum, an asian girl defecating on herself in a bath tub, or any of the other horrors.
2023-01-24T23:58:48 < catphish_> i'm not sure i've seen anus jar
2023-01-24T23:59:52 < rustyaxe> OHH Or that one that opened millions of popup windows showing goatse and playing a sound of "I'm looking at gay porn" over and over, til the popups crashed the machine
--- Day changed ke tammi 25 2023
2023-01-25T00:01:18 < catphish_> quassel looks like exactly what i want
2023-01-25T00:01:34 < catphish_> why have i never found this before
2023-01-25T00:02:06 < rustyaxe> 46mb for an irc client? jesus
2023-01-25T00:04:24 < catphish_> holy crap it has a lot of dependencies, seems like it makes heavy use of a GUI library
2023-01-25T00:04:53 < catphish_> Qt :)
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2023-01-25T00:06:36 < rustyaxe> ya i have qt already tho. Most good things are qt
2023-01-25T00:12:18 < Steffanx-> I used quassel for years. It's fine. 
2023-01-25T00:13:00 < Steffanx-> Even with the Android app.
2023-01-25T00:22:09 < catphish_> i can't seem to get the server running :(
2023-01-25T00:22:25 < catphish_> well, it's running, but i can't add a user
2023-01-25T00:27:22 < catphish_> got it :)
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2023-01-25T00:41:22 < catphish> woo, i'm quassel now
2023-01-25T00:41:35 < catphish> seems nice
2023-01-25T00:44:57 < zyp> you're welcome
2023-01-25T00:47:36 < catphish> it's precisely what i needed, and really not that much different than hexchat to use
2023-01-25T00:50:25 < catphish> and so nice that i can just close it without missing anything
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2023-01-25T00:55:00 < Steffanx-> You won't miss links from the blax anymore  \o/
2023-01-25T00:58:34 < catphish> indeed
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2023-01-25T12:49:38 < jbo> moin
2023-01-25T13:35:03 < catphish> mornin'
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2023-01-25T13:41:23 < jackbauer> hello folks. new here. trying to make an f412 discovery board work for almost a week now so may have some silly questions:)
2023-01-25T13:41:39 < jbo> no such thing as silly questions
2023-01-25T13:42:45 < zyp> plenty of silly answers though
2023-01-25T13:44:23 < jbo> indeed
2023-01-25T13:55:33 < catphish> welcome mr bauer
2023-01-25T14:14:27 < mawk> what have you tried so far jackbauer 
2023-01-25T14:14:41 < mawk> and where's the problem exactly
2023-01-25T14:14:59 < jackbauer> ok. prepare for a long story
2023-01-25T14:16:38 < jackbauer> so I'm designing a stm32 / libopencm3 based canbus data logger. https://github.com/damienmaguire/stm32-Logger I started off using an stm32f105 using spi to access the sd card. That wors but sd access is VERY slow
2023-01-25T14:17:07 < jackbauer> the internet poited me towards using the stm32f4 series as it has a 4 bit wide dedicated sdio controller
2023-01-25T14:17:28 < jackbauer> so i went off and bought a stm32f412 st discovery board
2023-01-25T14:17:54 < jackbauer> then attempted to get the boot loader : https://github.com/jsphuebner/tumanako-inverter-fw-bootloader/tree/stm32f4 and application code to run
2023-01-25T14:18:01 < jackbauer> that was a bout 4-5 days ago
2023-01-25T14:18:17 < jackbauer> it would not run and went into a blocking handler for all sorts of fun reasons
2023-01-25T14:18:28 < jackbauer> btw I'm not a programmer at all
2023-01-25T14:18:42 < jackbauer> last thing i was formally trained at was the mos6502:)
2023-01-25T14:19:28 < jackbauer> so I then found an old stm32f407 dev board and guess what : bootloader and app code just run but the bootloader wont accept new code so working on that now
2023-01-25T14:19:46 < jackbauer> and of course i cant understand why nothing of it will run on the f412
2023-01-25T14:19:51 < jackbauer> but will on the f407
2023-01-25T14:20:03 < jackbauer> oh i can blink leds on the 412 but thats about it:)
2023-01-25T14:22:52 < qyx> the first question is why are you complicating your life with a bootloader?
2023-01-25T14:23:03 < jackbauer> everything else brings me to the dreaded blocking handler
2023-01-25T14:23:10 < catphish> i suspect it would be very useful to paste a current dump of the simplest possible code that *doesn't* work, along with the relevent makefile and linker scripts, and how it doesn't work, i know you've gone though some iterations, but might be good for people to see the current problem directly
2023-01-25T14:23:25 < jackbauer> no prob will do
2023-01-25T14:25:37 < catphish> i believe this project uses an esp32 and a bootloader to allow configuring and flashing code from wifi, the application code has to be compiled with an entry point of 0x08001000 and the bootloader copies the code there and executes it
2023-01-25T14:26:32 < catphish> will wait and see what the exact issue is though
2023-01-25T14:28:17 < zyp> the f412 has a lower max speed and a slightly different set of peripherals from the f407, so you can't really expect f407 code to run unmodified on a f412
2023-01-25T14:29:09 < jbo> lab psu question: on a two channel programmable PSU, is it always save to hook them up in a way that you get a positive and a negative rail or are there some topologies where one might destroy the frontend?
2023-01-25T14:29:53 < zyp> jbo, as long as the channels are fully isolated from each other, I don't see what can go wrong
2023-01-25T14:30:15 < jbo> zyp, mmh, it's a keithley 2230g-30-6
2023-01-25T14:30:22 < catphish> zyp: i assume libopencm3 takes care of the differences? though obviously the code has to only call peripherals that exist, and stuff like writing to hardcoded flash locations is scarier
2023-01-25T14:31:20 < zyp> you might be assuming too much
2023-01-25T14:31:56 < jbo> zyp, the manual eplxains how to chain the two outputs to have series or parallel outputs. but I couldn't find anything specifically for symmetic outputs
2023-01-25T14:32:18 < qyx> F41x are access line MCUs and lack features from F407
2023-01-25T14:32:45 < qyx> on the other hand, iirc they have some peripherals F405/7 didn't have because they are newer
2023-01-25T14:32:50 < zyp> jbo, symmetric is just series with a centertap
2023-01-25T14:33:02 < jbo> zyp, jup. just want to make sure that I don't destroy the PSU :x
2023-01-25T14:33:07 < zyp> you won't.
2023-01-25T14:33:20 < jbo> alright, thanks for the 2nd opinion :D
2023-01-25T14:33:24 < zyp> (I'm not buying you a new if you still do)
2023-01-25T14:34:20 < jbo> of course, wouldn't assume/expect that. you know me. just haven't done hardware things in a while and I'm known to be overly cautious
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2023-01-25T15:13:35 < jackbauer> thanks guys
2023-01-25T15:13:54 < jackbauer> got the bootloader working. genius here hadnt configured the rx pin!
2023-01-25T15:15:19 < catphish> cool!
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2023-01-25T22:39:32 < kaki> moite
2023-01-25T22:42:50 < Steffanx-> Gooday sir kaki 
2023-01-25T22:43:37 < kaki> morgon
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2023-01-26T10:01:04 < benishor> ohai
2023-01-26T10:34:03 < benishor> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0OhmGD-4-E&ab_channel=HALIDONMUSIC
2023-01-26T11:21:44 < karlp> heh, one of these wch parts has 10M ethernet in the qfn28 package, the lqfp64 package, qfn 68, but _not_ the qfn48.
2023-01-26T11:22:22 < zyp> so don't use the qfn48 :)
2023-01-26T11:22:57 < benishor> sane suggestion
2023-01-26T11:23:04 < benishor> are you thirsty? drink water
2023-01-26T11:23:08 < benishor> you hungry? eat some food
2023-01-26T11:23:28 < benishor> no qfn48 but other footprint for your feature set? use that
2023-01-26T11:24:43 < karlp> good morning to you both too, the "heh" was just a "this seems unusual to have a feature missing from a bigger package that is normally only found on bigger packages" but yeah, sure, I'm obviously choosign parts wrong.  (I'm not hcoosing parts anyway)
2023-01-26T11:25:29 < zyp> fair enough
2023-01-26T11:26:57 < zyp> people do all sorts of weird stuff in packaging
2023-01-26T11:26:58 < karlp> zyp: my asyncio adventures are going generally very well, once I got my head around a few more parts, some things became very easy.
2023-01-26T11:27:04 < zyp> nice
2023-01-26T11:29:02 < karlp> I've got some "Task was destroyed but it is pending" issues that ... I think I've worked around, but I have a feeling I may be doign it wrong.
2023-01-26T11:30:00 < karlp> but yah, I have a single application, listening to btle advertisements, connecting to a rotating list of devices and dumping some stats, and at the same time, it can listen for commands on mqtt, connect to a commanded device and start sending notifications back to a mqtt topic.
2023-01-26T11:30:56 < karlp> and the app's only 450 lines of python.
2023-01-26T11:31:40 < karlp> it's nice having more cpu again, instead of doign it all in lua and having to build lots of pieces on the much smaller community
2023-01-26T11:31:44 < zyp> it seems to me that first impressions of coroutines depends a bit on what angle you come at it from; if you come at it from a traditional multithreading perspective, it kinda looks like a limited and more convoluted way of doing multithreading
2023-01-26T11:32:03 < karlp> that was definitely me.
2023-01-26T11:33:09 < zyp> it makes a lot more sense as an alternative to async patterns with callbacks and shit
2023-01-26T11:34:06 < zyp> e.g. if you've ever done anything in continuation-passing style
2023-01-26T11:35:39 < karlp> no, dont't think so, but I've hated callbacks a lot when the apis didn't let you have your own context object.
2023-01-26T11:37:03 < zyp> consider a network server that needs to handle multiple clients in parallel; it's typically too expensive to spin up a dedicated thread for every client
2023-01-26T11:39:28 < zyp> so you've got something that's running select() or similar on all the client sockets and calling a callback when there's activity somewhere
2023-01-26T11:40:47 < zyp> that's what the asyncio ioloop does
2023-01-26T11:41:17 < zyp> except with coroutines a callback is typically a resumption of whatever coroutine was awaiting that activity
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2023-01-26T12:18:43 < ventYl> karlp: does the qfn48 contain something else, which might be more interesting than 10mbe ?
2023-01-26T12:19:31 < drzacek> are there other variants of the qfn28 that dont have ethernet but have other features? 
2023-01-26T12:20:04 < drzacek> so they make the small package for dedicated solutions, big package that has everything, and medium package that only has some basics but lack the speciality feature
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2023-01-26T12:30:42 < karlp> ventYl: as best I can tell, the qfn48 has the uarts/spi from the bigger packages instead, so yeah, something else, but I still thought it interesting that they skipped the middle for ethernet.
2023-01-26T12:33:47 < ventYl> karlp: that would be trade-off with a lot of disadvantage
2023-01-26T12:46:58 -!- jackbauer [~jack_baue@80.233.47.33] has joined ##stm32
2023-01-26T12:47:48 < karlp> meh, think I found a bug in silabs ncp again.
2023-01-26T12:50:22 < jackbauer> i'm back with another silly f4 problem
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2023-01-26T12:50:38 < jackbauer> despite having -march=armv7+fp in LD flags i get :
2023-01-26T12:51:06 < jackbauer> error: stm32_LoggerF4 uses VFP register arguments, /usr/bin/../lib/gcc/arm-none-eabi/10.3.1/../../../../arm-none-eabi/lib/thumb/v7/nofp/libc.a(lib_a-strlen-stub.o) does not
2023-01-26T12:54:13 < karlp> are you u sing the same flags for cc and ld?
2023-01-26T12:54:18 < karlp> (you should be)
2023-01-26T12:54:59 < ventYl> yeah, at least arm toolchain uses multi-lib GCC and the right libraries are decided at link time based on *compiler* flags
2023-01-26T12:56:51 < jackbauer> ahhhh
2023-01-26T12:57:42 < jackbauer> CFLAGS		= -O0 -g3 -Wall -Wextra -Iinclude/ -Ilibopeninv/include -Ilibopencm3/include \
2023-01-26T12:57:42 < jackbauer>              -fno-common -fno-builtin -pedantic -DSTM32F4 \
2023-01-26T12:57:42 < jackbauer> 				 -mcpu=cortex-m4 -mthumb -mfloat-abi=hard -mfpu=fpv4-sp-d16 -std=gnu99 -ffunction-sections -fdata-sections
2023-01-26T12:58:21 < jackbauer> CPPFLAGS    = -O0 -g3 -Wall -Wextra -Iinclude/ -Ilibopeninv/include -Ilibopencm3/include \
2023-01-26T12:58:21 < jackbauer>             -fno-common -std=c++11 -pedantic -DSTM32F4 \
2023-01-26T12:58:21 < jackbauer> 				-ffunction-sections -fdata-sections -fno-builtin -fno-rtti -fno-exceptions -fno-unwind-tables -mcpu=cortex-m4 -mthumb -mfloat-abi=hard -mfpu=fpv4-sp-d16
2023-01-26T12:59:15 < karlp> my eyeeeees
2023-01-26T12:59:24 < jackbauer> :)
2023-01-26T12:59:36 < jackbauer> need goggles?
2023-01-26T12:59:54 < karlp> nah, just means I'm not looking at it.
2023-01-26T12:59:56 < ventYl> jackbauer: are you using genlink-rules.mk ?
2023-01-26T13:00:29 < ventYl> if not, you shall
2023-01-26T13:00:43 < jackbauer> possibly....sorry not very good at this. using arm-none-eabi
2023-01-26T13:00:53 < karlp> eh, it's not required, and it's marginally slowr.
2023-01-26T13:01:01 < karlp> I still recommend it of course .)
2023-01-26T13:01:13 < karlp> lots of that looks like -fcargo-culting though.
2023-01-26T13:01:32 < ventYl> jackbauer: check some libopencm3 examples, if you use Makefiles, then do use genlink-rules, it will sort out this kind of problems and generate linker script for you (almost) for free
2023-01-26T13:03:07 < ventYl> anyway, the root cause is that you are missing some FP arguments in LDFLAGS. I see that the path to libc.a contains "nofp" which means... no floating point. thus multilib decided that your CPU is ARMv7, but without VFP
2023-01-26T13:03:08 < jackbauer> oh ok thanks will try
2023-01-26T13:04:08 < ventYl> I guess that adding -mfloat-abi=hard -mfpu=fpv4-sp-d16 to LDFLAGS would do that, but I still consider it being hack. having tool for dealing with such stuff ready for use
2023-01-26T13:05:27 < karlp> jackbauer: you "pasted" cc and cxx flags, but not ldflags, so.. noone has a clue, you just pasted some arbitrary garbage :)
2023-01-26T13:05:55 < jackbauer> LDFLAGS    = -Llibopencm3/lib -march=armv7+fp -T$(LDSCRIPT) -nostartfiles -Wl,--gc-sections,-Map,linker.map
2023-01-26T13:06:02 < jackbauer> told you i was dumb:)
2023-01-26T13:06:03 < karlp> there you 
2023-01-26T13:06:14 < ventYl> amIrite?
2023-01-26T13:06:14 < karlp> also, CPPFLAGS are not for c++
2023-01-26T13:06:18 < karlp> you want CXXFLAGS
2023-01-26T13:06:31 < karlp> CPPFLAGS are c pre processor, and are used for both.
2023-01-26T13:06:51 < jackbauer> dont have any cxxflags
2023-01-26T13:06:58 < karlp> yes... I know.
2023-01-26T13:07:06 < karlp> but you have what looks like you are trying to have cxx flags.
2023-01-26T13:07:25 < karlp> were you pick a c++ standard and have a bunch of c++ related flags.
2023-01-26T13:23:52 < ventYl> nah Raspberry Pi managed to break their SDK
2023-01-26T13:24:01 < ventYl> sometimes during the last year
2023-01-26T13:33:34 < ventYl> nah, I just had to nuke the cache
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2023-01-26T14:17:37 < jbo> Hey guys, I have a hard time figuring out how many amps I can push through one of those pins: https://www.digikey.ch/en/products/detail/mill-max-manufacturing-corp/878-22-004-10-011101/16630531
2023-01-26T14:17:43 < jbo> any wild guesses?
2023-01-26T14:20:41 < jpa-> jbo: what is the other surface?
2023-01-26T14:22:14 < jbo> jpa-, the matching mating surface: https://www.digikey.ch/en/products/detail/mill-max-manufacturing-corp/878-20-005-00-011000/16630547
2023-01-26T14:22:14 < zyp> jbo, according to the datasheet, it's rated for 150V with a contact resistance of 25mohm max, so to put an upper bound on it you can't push more than 6000A before you lose the entire voltage across the drop over the connector
2023-01-26T14:22:52 < jpa-> you can get the dissipated power from the 25 mohm contact resistance - i would say 1A (0.025W dissipated) is certainly fine, 5A (0.6W dissipated) is gonna get hot
2023-01-26T14:22:59 < zyp> but that requires fairly good cooling, because it's only rated for 80 degrees
2023-01-26T14:23:16 < jbo> hmm, I'd be happy with 2A per pin
2023-01-26T14:23:37 < jbo> I can only do 12V unfortunately.
2023-01-26T14:23:40 < jpa-> so 0.1W per pin - it'll warm up but should be fine
2023-01-26T14:23:55 < jpa-> when users get it dirty it might melt ;)
2023-01-26T14:24:07 < jbo> fair point
2023-01-26T14:24:17 < jbo> 20.- a piece :D
2023-01-26T14:24:47 < jpa-> but it seems pretty prone to short-circuit anyway
2023-01-26T14:24:47 < karlp> 20 whats.
2023-01-26T14:24:54 < zyp> bux
2023-01-26T14:24:57 < jpa-> 20 francs
2023-01-26T14:24:57 < karlp> your fucking link made it francs
2023-01-26T14:25:04 < karlp> says 9.6fr here.
2023-01-26T14:25:21 < jbo> I would just have expected a manufacturer provided amperage rating for the combo of the piston/pogo connector & mating surface rather than just the contact resistance of the piston/pogo part.
2023-01-26T14:25:21 < jpa-> because swiss are too poor to figure out their own monetary system, they had to steal the name from french
2023-01-26T14:26:28 < karlp> yokogawa make similar things taht "should" be cheaper.
2023-01-26T14:26:39 < jbo> karlp, yeah the mating surface one is 20.-
2023-01-26T14:26:47 < jbo> karlp, thanks, I'll check those out! just need something fast for a prototype.
2023-01-26T14:27:04 < karlp> bear in mind, there's nothing else after prototype in that field....
2023-01-26T14:27:21 < karlp> there's no, "oh, I'll find a cheaper tiny spring loaded contact surface later"
2023-01-26T14:27:26 < karlp> because you've already found it.
2023-01-26T14:27:40 < jpa-> there can be more, namely: fire and litigation ;)
2023-01-26T14:30:18 < zyp> my old smartwatch had some shit like that, and seemed to have some issues with galvanic corrosion because there were a voltage present on one of the connectors
2023-01-26T14:30:50 < zyp> when I replaced it, I made sure to buy a watch with wireless charging to avoid the whole problem
2023-01-26T14:31:15 < jpa-> if i were to do that, i would use the odd pin to 1) only enable power when other end is connected  2) report detected voltage from the other side of connector, to monitor voltage drop over the connector
2023-01-26T14:32:06 < karlp> then you can talk to andrew about his lemonjuice and vinegar on his usb-c connectors :)
2023-01-26T14:32:23 < karlp> imagine using tiny things like that and having "spare" pins :)
2023-01-26T14:32:28 < jpa-> is that the lemonade altmode?
2023-01-26T14:33:26 < zyp> jpa-, or just wire the connectors in pairs on the receiving side and use the second set to do «four wire measurement» on the source side
2023-01-26T14:34:04 < zyp> jbo, dumb suggestion maybe, but have you considered wireless power transfer?
2023-01-26T14:34:21 < jpa-> i assume "2A per pin" means that it would really be 12V @ 4A
2023-01-26T14:36:03 < zyp> qi does what? 30W?
2023-01-26T14:42:45 < jbo> zyp, I have not. this is just a low power prototype serving as a PoC for a potential customer
2023-01-26T14:42:58 < jbo> I guess the final thing will need some beefier, potentially custom made connectors
2023-01-26T14:44:38 < jbo> gotta go bring my tractor to the bianuall inspection, cu later guys o/
2023-01-26T14:46:49 < zyp> jbo, well, if this is just supposed to be a power connection, you should consider going wireless
2023-01-26T14:49:28 < jbo> zyp, I'll revisit that topic - thanks!
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2023-01-26T16:05:47 < jbo> jpa-, did you get nuked yet?
2023-01-26T16:06:41 < jpa-> not so far
2023-01-26T16:06:47 < jbo> good to hear!
2023-01-26T16:07:27 < jbo> better not upset vlad
2023-01-26T16:07:30 < jpa-> nuking .fi is probably pretty useless because of the low density of people, as if anyone would care internationally for less than a million casualties
2023-01-26T16:07:47 < jbo> I would care
2023-01-26T16:07:52 < jbo> I would come and rescue you
2023-01-26T16:08:01 < jbo> I'll pick up zyp on the way there
2023-01-26T16:08:02 < jpa-> nah, nowadays we are free to upset vlad, but we need to act nice to our new supreme overlord, the crazy king of turkeyland
2023-01-26T16:08:19 < jbo> yeah that guy
2023-01-26T16:08:27 < jbo> is he only blocking sweden indefinitely now or also .fi?
2023-01-26T16:08:44 < jbo> he's a bit salty because somebody burned a book in .se, right?
2023-01-26T16:08:52 < jpa-> he is blocking .se until next week, that's the average attention span of adult babies
2023-01-26T16:09:09 < jbo> so you think this will come through anyway?
2023-01-26T16:09:13 < jpa-> yeah, russians hired rasmus who has a long track-record of book burning to burn one more book
2023-01-26T16:10:21 < jpa-> there is no hurry with nato
2023-01-26T16:10:37 < jpa-> old crazy dudes die eventually
2023-01-26T16:10:38 < jbo> the "next week" just seemed awfully specific
2023-01-26T16:10:53 < jpa-> yeah, he will have some other crap next week
2023-01-26T16:11:10 < jpa-> like, maybe more terrorists he wants to put in jail for insulting him on facebook or something
2023-01-26T16:11:31 < jpa-> when you live from attention, you need to make the best out of it
2023-01-26T16:12:40 < karlp> erdogan will keep blocking things until people stop agreeing to his demands.  whatever happened to not negotiating with terrorists?!
2023-01-26T16:12:40 < jpa-> if you just block something indefinitely for some reason that can no longer be affected, no more news
2023-01-26T16:14:04 < jpa-> karlp: it's easier that way, it's all that matters
2023-01-26T16:14:21 < jpa-> fancy principles don't really matter
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2023-01-26T16:15:35 < Laurence_b> has anyone here ever used bluestacks on windozer?
2023-01-26T16:15:42 < Laurence_b> I cant get it to see usb devices
2023-01-26T16:16:58 < karlp> TIL lolrence is a wannabe mobile gaymer as well.
2023-01-26T16:17:28 < karlp> doesn't even have a mobile phone to play them on though, has to resort to using windows on ..... urh. pc.
2023-01-26T16:17:35 < Laurence_b> I need to use a seek thermal camera
2023-01-26T16:17:38 < jbo> jpa-, well just let me know when shit hits the fan. I'll personally move the swiss guards from the vatican to your house!
2023-01-26T16:17:58 < Laurence_b> maybe I should try the windozer opensores driver, looks like a massive pita to compile
2023-01-26T16:18:02 < karlp> lolrence, the app is fucking trash anyway.
2023-01-26T16:18:13 < Laurence_b> yeah wtf
2023-01-26T16:18:16 < karlp> zero updates, very imited functionality, 
2023-01-26T16:18:16 < jbo> jpa-, this every day you wake up: https://cdn.britannica.com/61/190561-050-E0B42EFA/Pontifical-Swiss-Guards-election-Vatican-City-April-19-2005.jpg
2023-01-26T16:18:30 < Laurence_b> hmm I'll try seekofix
2023-01-26T16:18:32 < karlp> like, wtf, can'ðt you even highlight the hottest poitn for me?!
2023-01-26T16:18:38 < jpa-> jbo: how about sending them to ukraine?
2023-01-26T16:18:42 < karlp> I don't want a single fucking temp for the middle of the image.
2023-01-26T16:18:51 < jbo> jpa-, well, can't argue with that. 
2023-01-26T16:18:54 < Laurence_b> karlp: what driver do you use?
2023-01-26T16:19:00 < karlp> I just use my phone
2023-01-26T16:19:10 < karlp> and I use it rarely, partly because of how suck it is I guess.
2023-01-26T16:19:20 < Laurence_b> I'm tempted to try this https://github.com/frenkinet/SeekOFix
2023-01-26T16:19:24 < Laurence_b> looks like a pain to compile
2023-01-26T16:19:34 < Laurence_b> bluestacks cant see the camera
2023-01-26T16:19:44 < karlp> I find the manual focus to be fucking tedious as well.
2023-01-26T16:19:47 < jbo> karlp's language seems to have changed since I was active here the last time a few years ago
2023-01-26T16:20:02 < karlp> half the time the android app doesn't see my cam either.
2023-01-26T16:20:07 < jbo> he wen't from nice icelandig person to "lol shit fuck this gaymer ass"
2023-01-26T16:20:11 < Laurence_b> lol
2023-01-26T16:20:12 < jpa-> i bought infiray p2 pro; rumor says it appears as UVC camera, but i haven't figured out how to plug it into my PC yet
2023-01-26T16:20:25 < Laurence_b> hmm I'll try bluestacks a couple more times then
2023-01-26T16:20:38 < karlp> jbo: have to use languge that lolrence understands.
2023-01-26T16:20:40 < Laurence_b> lol UVC, easy compared to this custom crap interface
2023-01-26T16:20:51 < jbo> karlp, I see
2023-01-26T16:20:52 < karlp> lolrenc, that seekfix is one commit, 6 years ago, with no docs?!
2023-01-26T16:20:55 < fenugrec> I think he's filling in for dongs
2023-01-26T16:21:05 < Laurence_b> karlp: yeah... seems like a bad idea
2023-01-26T16:21:11 < jpa-> because it has usb-c plug, and i don't have usb-c to usb-a adapter, and having the thermal camera directly at the back of my PC is not very helpful :)
2023-01-26T16:21:20 < Laurence_b> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/thermal-imaging/seekofix-can_t-be-compiled/
2023-01-26T16:21:21 < Laurence_b> lol
2023-01-26T16:21:27 < jbo> jpa-, I'm literally ordering usb-c to usb-a adapters right now
2023-01-26T16:21:35 < Laurence_b> jpa-: I've soldered a USB A onto it
2023-01-26T16:21:42 < jpa-> jbo: how dare you, they are not in standard!
2023-01-26T16:22:04 < jbo> jpa-, ah, is that why they are hard to find
2023-01-26T16:22:16 < karlp> hrm, there's probably enough info in https://github.com/frenkinet/SeekOFix/blob/master/TestSeek/SeekThermal.cs to jsut use pyusb though...
2023-01-26T16:22:28 < jbo> jpa-, I bought some yubikeys and decided to go for the USB-C version so I can use it on my laptop & phone too. but my desktops don't really have an easily accessible usb-c port anywhere
2023-01-26T16:22:29 < jpa-> (the usb-c receptable to usb-a plug thingy could let you plug two usb-a's together, and apparently that is sooo horrible risk)
2023-01-26T16:22:38 < jbo> afk meeting
2023-01-26T16:22:48 < Steffanx-> Have fun
2023-01-26T16:23:00 < karlp> looks like just "write some control data to start, then just suck out frames"
2023-01-26T16:23:10 < Laurence_b> I just chopped the back off the a file and soldered on a usb cable
2023-01-26T16:24:47 < BrainDamage> jbo: the two I have have nfc, so i can use it on my phone just as easily
2023-01-26T16:25:15 < karlp> jpa-: what's the infiray like?
2023-01-26T16:26:08 < jpa-> karlp: pretty nice, especially the macro attachment works well - my biggest annoyance is that the android software doesn't let you lock the scale, it wants to autoscale between max & min temperature continuously
2023-01-26T16:26:51 < karlp> what's focusing like?
2023-01-26T16:28:27 < jpa-> no autofocus, without macro attachment it focuses at infinity and with macro 5-10cm distance seems to work well
2023-01-26T16:29:16 < jbo> BrainDamage, yeah I felt like avoiding something that can be accessed via NFC. don't want someone eavesdropping on my yubikey while I am in the metro or anything like that.
2023-01-26T16:29:19 < jpa-> https://photos.app.goo.gl/1z7S469xoWsUkLxS9  this board is 2.5cm wide, smallest parts are 0603
2023-01-26T16:29:31 < jbo> BrainDamage, that being said, this will be my first experience with yubikeys
2023-01-26T16:31:13 < Laurence_b> do I need visual studio to compile seekofix?
2023-01-26T16:32:48 < Laurence_b> hmm looks like it
2023-01-26T16:32:54 < Laurence_b> this is rage inducing
2023-01-26T16:33:14 < Laurence_b> what part of USB video class idd they not understand
2023-01-26T16:33:54 < jbo> Laurence still complaining like in ye old days? :)
2023-01-26T16:37:23 < Laurence_b> 2GB download wtf visual studio
2023-01-26T16:37:32 < Mangy_Dog> if im able to toggle the gpio pins associated with i2c, is it still possible for the i2c hardware to be faulty?
2023-01-26T16:37:38 < Laurence_b> imagine how much ladyboy pronz that would be
2023-01-26T16:37:47 < specing> Laurence_b: well its visual, what did you expect?
2023-01-26T16:37:53 < Laurence_b> lmao
2023-01-26T16:37:56 < specing> There's got to be some waifus in there too
2023-01-26T16:38:07 < Laurence_b> >the visual means ladyboys
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2023-01-26T16:49:54 < jpa-> Mangy_Dog: unlikely, usually IO pins are the only part you can break directly from outside
2023-01-26T16:50:07 < jpa-> Mangy_Dog: unless you have been buying some shady clone / factory reject parts again?
2023-01-26T16:53:28 < Laurence_b> does anyone know wtf the "clickonce manifest" is?
2023-01-26T16:53:32 < Laurence_b> in visual studio
2023-01-26T16:55:30 < karlp> f1 has super awesome i2c though, just how MD likes it
2023-01-26T16:56:48 < Laurence_b> it is pretty epin
2023-01-26T17:08:16 < Mangy_Dog> tbh
2023-01-26T17:08:31 < Mangy_Dog> im aware the i2c is borqed on f1
2023-01-26T17:08:38 < Mangy_Dog> i think im using software i2c anyway
2023-01-26T17:08:42 < Mangy_Dog> so bitbanging should be fine anyway
2023-01-26T17:08:44 < Mangy_Dog> and 
2023-01-26T17:08:48 < Mangy_Dog> i think the chip is legit
2023-01-26T17:09:19 < Mangy_Dog> just dont know why on this one tricorder it cant see the touch chip
2023-01-26T17:09:29 < Mangy_Dog> tripple checked continuity
2023-01-26T17:09:33 < Mangy_Dog> and even scoped
2023-01-26T17:09:41 < Mangy_Dog> just when scoping doesnt look like any data is being sent at all
2023-01-26T17:10:44 < jbo> Laurence_b, "clickonce manifest" sounds a lot like a manifest listing all the stuff that needs to be downloaded (I assume via vckpg) and probably some other config stuff. no idea tho.
2023-01-26T17:12:23 < zyp> I'm kinda amazed by how little thought apparently went into designing the gdb remote protocol
2023-01-26T17:13:42 < zyp> I mean, much of the cruft stems from features being added over a long period of time
2023-01-26T17:13:56 < Mangy_Dog> i take it back
2023-01-26T17:14:00 < zyp> but then there's shit like this: https://sourceware.org/gdb/onlinedocs/gdb/Notification-Packets.html
2023-01-26T17:14:03 < Mangy_Dog> data is attempted at boot
2023-01-26T17:14:14 < Mangy_Dog> so i2c is working at least
2023-01-26T17:14:31 < zyp> where they go out of their way to design a general feature, but only use it for one thing
2023-01-26T17:14:45 < zyp> and the way it's designed makes it annoying to add more stuff later
2023-01-26T17:15:55 < jbo> zyp's language has also become more harsh I see
2023-01-26T17:16:00 < jbo> what happened, people? where is the happyness?
2023-01-26T17:16:26 < zyp> they've specced that only one notification can be pending at a time, more have to be queued, and then they've specced that the ack command will return the next queued event if any
2023-01-26T17:16:32 < Mangy_Dog> what is... happyness?
2023-01-26T17:16:41 < jbo> ask mawk - something about MDMA
2023-01-26T17:16:57 < jbo> or amphetamines in general? I have honestly no clue.
2023-01-26T17:17:09 < jbo> serotonin? dophamine? something something.
2023-01-26T17:17:14 < Mangy_Dog> hmm
2023-01-26T17:17:20 < Mangy_Dog> not something i have it seems
2023-01-26T17:17:23 < zyp> but as the protocol example shows, getting another notification from the ack command doesn't tell you what kind of notification it is, only gives you the payload
2023-01-26T17:17:25 < mawk> wat
2023-01-26T17:18:16 < zyp> which works since there's only one kind of notification right now, but turns nonsensical as soon as they add another notification type
2023-01-26T17:25:40 < Mangy_Dog> touch chips the wrong orientation D:
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2023-01-26T17:51:07 < karlp> Mangy_Dog: if you're bitbanging i2c, why would you have been asking abotu whether the i2c hardware could be broken if the gpios still worked?
2023-01-26T17:51:21 < karlp> oh, you _think_ you're using software i2c.  nice.
2023-01-26T17:51:38 < Mangy_Dog> I had to double check but yes its on softwire
2023-01-26T17:51:55 < karlp> zyp:yah, gdb remote is fucking gross.
2023-01-26T17:52:01 < Mangy_Dog> i wasnt sure when i asked
2023-01-26T17:52:11 < Mangy_Dog> anyway touch buttons working
2023-01-26T17:52:30 < Mangy_Dog> the chip was just 90 ' the wrong way round >.<
2023-01-26T18:06:09 < jpa-> zyp: try reading SD card spec and the GDB remote protocol will appear sane and well designed :D
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2023-01-26T18:24:18 < zyp> haha
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2023-01-26T19:05:49 < jbo> Access Denied
2023-01-26T19:05:49 < jbo> You don't have permission to access "http://www.digikey.ch/ordering/ShoppingCart" on this server.
2023-01-26T19:05:55 < jbo> wtf can't order at digikey?
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2023-01-26T19:09:36 < mawk> stinky IP
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2023-01-26T21:52:56 < jbo> tractor did not make it through vehicle inspection :<<
2023-01-26T21:54:21 < zyp> aww
2023-01-26T21:54:58 < jbo> needs a new ball joint
2023-01-26T21:59:06 < kaki> what tractor
2023-01-26T22:01:46 < jbo> my 2009 Jeep GrandCherokee
2023-01-26T22:02:31 < zyp> ball joint doesn't sound too hard to replace
2023-01-26T22:02:43 < zyp> I did that once on my old volvo
2023-01-26T22:03:18 < fenugrec> sometimes "ball joint" = "complete control arm because mfg hates you and BJ is crimped in place"
2023-01-26T22:03:25 < zyp> fair enough
2023-01-26T22:03:38 < zyp> I don't think anything was too hard to replace on that old volvo :p
2023-01-26T22:03:45 < kaki> jbo: does it have speed wobble?
2023-01-26T22:04:20 < Steffanx-> That's what you get for not parking your car properly, jbo 
2023-01-26T22:04:50 < jbo> Steffanx- :D
2023-01-26T22:05:08 < zyp> IIRC it was a few bolts to get the whole thing out, and then the ball was attached to some conical shit that was stuck
2023-01-26T22:05:29 < zyp> so I threw it in the oven so thermal expansion could do its thing, and that did the trick :p
2023-01-26T22:05:55 < fenugrec> yea that conical pressfit can be fun, esp. if you're trying to do all on-car. A bit of well-applied violence (thermal or impact) ususually helps
2023-01-26T22:06:51 < zyp> if I had to do it again today I'd probably take it as an excuse to buy a hydraulic press
2023-01-26T22:07:23 < fenugrec> I got mine to finish a wheel bearing job P ))
2023-01-26T22:07:27 < zyp> it's somewhere on the shopping list for the hobby workshop
2023-01-26T22:07:52 < zyp> nobody has needed one yet, but I figure it's just a matter of time :)
2023-01-26T22:08:55 < jbo> Steffanx- remembering the tractor trips
2023-01-26T22:09:25 < zyp> the last thing I picked up was a welding fume extractor
2023-01-26T22:09:27 < zyp> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/797468335969271818/1063168305835298936/IMG_20230112_195054.jpg
2023-01-26T22:10:19 < kaki> moneyed
2023-01-26T22:10:33 < zyp> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/797468335969271818/1063170412827115521/IMG_20230112_195917.jpg
2023-01-26T22:10:40 < kaki> just use your lungs to filter the air?
2023-01-26T22:10:50 < zyp> nah, somebody were getting rid of it for like 100€
2023-01-26T22:10:55 < kaki> ah
2023-01-26T22:11:10 < kaki> that's beyond bargain
2023-01-26T22:11:18 < kaki> that's virtually free
2023-01-26T22:11:27 < fenugrec> puny cherrypicker
2023-01-26T22:12:11 < zyp> yeah, I'd kinda like to have an overhead crane, but I think that's out of my budget :)
2023-01-26T22:14:40 < zyp> kinda tempted to get this thing, but it's a bit out of my toy budget: https://www.finn.no/bap/forsale/ad.html?finnkode=286465635
2023-01-26T22:15:59 < fenugrec> https://filebin.net/kr96h86neghssu32/denf.jpg
2023-01-26T22:16:00 < kaki> friend has one that has small cabin
2023-01-26T22:16:17 < kaki> from early 90s
2023-01-26T22:16:33 < fenugrec> how much is 25000 kryptons
2023-01-26T22:16:48 < zyp> 2500€, roughly
2023-01-26T22:16:55 < zyp> just remove a zero
2023-01-26T22:16:56 < kaki> yeah keep looking
2023-01-26T22:17:01 < fenugrec> not cheap
2023-01-26T22:17:32 < zyp> cheaper than alternatives, but that doesn't help when it's still out of the budget :)
2023-01-26T22:17:38 < kaki> friend's thing has charger size of welding machine
2023-01-26T22:17:46 < kaki> and batteries boil too
2023-01-26T22:18:03 < kaki> and charger sometimes work and sometimes doesn't
2023-01-26T22:18:10 < kaki> 500eur iirc.
2023-01-26T22:18:36 < kaki> if you charge it for night you can lift 2 objects
2023-01-26T22:18:42 < kaki> then recharge
2023-01-26T22:24:24 < fenugrec> other fun project with the cherrypick was lowering a welder down stairs https://filebin.net/c95urw6e6oyctuda/weld.jpg
2023-01-26T22:24:38 < fenugrec> git cherry-pick welder..basement --force
2023-01-26T22:26:20 < zyp> :)
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2023-01-26T23:14:07 < Laurence_b> wew muh IR camera works
2023-01-26T23:14:32 < Laurence_b> segfaults if I try to use install stock driver
2023-01-26T23:14:49 < Laurence_b> but works with just winusb
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2023-01-26T23:43:53 < Steffanx-> Know you and your lunix-fu that is no surprise Laurence_b ;)
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--- Day changed pe tammi 27 2023
2023-01-27T00:01:10 < Steffanx-> Knowing*
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2023-01-27T00:15:52 < qyx> I hate this PC/UPC/APC thing
2023-01-27T00:22:01 < qyx> https://www.tesshop.sk/opticky-patchcord-lc-pc-lc-pc-20m-3mm-simplex-sm-g657a_d6085.html
2023-01-27T00:22:07 < qyx> whoa is it 2023 or what
2023-01-27T00:22:28 < qyx> those prices, I expected 20 m of patchcord to cost at least 30 €
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2023-01-27T00:43:00 < zyp> that only gives me a database error
2023-01-27T00:44:25 < qyx> weird
2023-01-27T00:45:42 < qyx> lol same here, they are probably doing *maintenance*
2023-01-27T00:45:51 < qyx> it was 7e
2023-01-27T00:47:16 < zyp> i.e. https://www.fs.com/products/40439.html?attribute=994&id=19763 ?
2023-01-27T00:49:13 < zyp> sorry, wrong length, that was 30m
2023-01-27T00:49:19 < qyx> yes
2023-01-27T00:50:15 < qyx> and mikrotik/ubnt SFP under 10e
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2023-01-27T00:52:15 < zyp> for bidi?
2023-01-27T00:53:00 < qyx> yeah 3km
2023-01-27T00:54:50 < qyx> I need to buy some stuff to test my SFP board
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2023-01-27T01:14:15 < bitmask> hmmm, turned my printer on for the first time in over a year. forgot how long it takes to print stuffs :P
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2023-01-27T03:08:36 < catphish> today i learned a bit about field oriented motor control, and maybe why my motor has such problems with switching between motor and generator modes
2023-01-27T03:10:21 < catphish> it turns out i forgot that magnetizing current should be constant, when no torque is requested, you still have to keep the thing magnetized
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2023-01-27T11:23:31 < PaulFertser> Israeli IDs have an interesting method of calculating the checksum (the 9th digit): first ID digit is multiplied by 1, the next by 2, the next by 1 again etc, then all the resultant _digits_ are summed (that is, if multiplication gave 14 then it's 1+4), then the last digit is 10 - (S % 10). Does this sound similar to any popular algorithm? Does this sound sane?
2023-01-27T11:38:46 < PaulFertser> OK, so it's just https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhn_algorithm , extremely popular apparently.
2023-01-27T11:41:58 < PaulFertser> "a simple, hand-held, mechanical device for computing the checksum. The device took the mod 10 sum by mechanical means." now that explains why it's not so really robust against certain kinds of errors.
2023-01-27T11:54:46 < zyp> I think that's the same or similar to what we do here
2023-01-27T11:55:32 < zyp> ah, no, Luhn is mod10, we use mod11
2023-01-27T11:56:14 < zyp> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhn_mod_N_algorithm
2023-01-27T11:57:53 < zyp> norwegian personal ID numbers, company ID numbers and bank account numbers are all mod11 here
2023-01-27T11:58:44 < zyp> also payment ID numbers on invoices
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2023-01-27T12:40:00 < PaulFertser> It's kind of odd to use a worse algorithm in the 21st century just because it was easier to implement on mechanical machines many years ago.
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2023-01-27T12:42:46 < PaulFertser> And it's not like there's any sense to re-use it for new applications.
2023-01-27T12:44:08 < qyx> we use mod 11 for a lot of stuff too iirc
2023-01-27T12:44:42 < qyx> personal numbers too ("birth numbers")
2023-01-27T12:46:12 < zyp> PaulFertser, mod11 seems good enough for what it's used for, what would you use instead that's better?
2023-01-27T12:46:45 < braindamage> we use mod 26 since we use alphabetical letters
2023-01-27T12:52:26 < PaulFertser> zyp: it doesn't protect from inversions of 0 and the last possible digit.
2023-01-27T12:52:56 < PaulFertser> zyp: looks like a suitable CRC would work better for the purpose.
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2023-01-27T13:02:05 < qyx> but those numbers are usually written by hand or even said over a phone
2023-01-27T13:02:06 < zyp> PaulFertser, yeah, that's what mod11 solves, because the last possible digit is never used with a base10 input
2023-01-27T13:03:47 < PaulFertser> zyp: I see, so the input is still base 10, ok. Still some substitions like 22 -- 66 could have been detected.
2023-01-27T13:03:58 < PaulFertser> (by a better algorithm)
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2023-01-27T15:55:11 < karlp> man, fenugrec all your filebin links are dead already :<
2023-01-27T15:57:19 < fenugrec> karlp, yes I set them to expire after ~1day
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2023-01-27T16:00:13 < mawk> I bought this https://www.st.com/en/ecosystems/x-nucleo-nfc06a1.html
2023-01-27T16:00:15 < mawk> to do NFC magic
2023-01-27T16:00:26 < mawk> to emulate mifare classic
2023-01-27T16:02:51 < fenugrec> karlp, just for you  https://pasteboard.co/IBLLWetjMA35.jpg
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2023-01-27T16:03:52 < mawk> I wanted rather the ST25R3918 but there's no devboard for it https://www.st.com/en/nfc/st25r3918.html
2023-01-27T16:03:58 < mawk> and I have no idea how to make a pcb for it
2023-01-27T16:05:18 < fenugrec> F* st keeps subscribing me to their shit newsletter
2023-01-27T16:06:40 < mawk> lol
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2023-01-27T16:17:12 < zyp> mawk, so, can it do that?
2023-01-27T16:17:48 < zyp> AFAIK mifare classic is an incompatible derivate of 14443A
2023-01-27T16:18:28 < zyp> and I think you're unlikely to find anything but nxp parts supporting it, unless you go for some sort of SDR solution
2023-01-27T16:20:44 < mawk> I thought it was just a subset zyp 
2023-01-27T16:20:48 < mawk> but with proprietary crypto
2023-01-27T16:20:59 < mawk> the board supports some kind of "transparent" mode in which you can use your own protocol
2023-01-27T16:21:11 < mawk> and it explictly advertises mifare classic capabilities
2023-01-27T16:21:15 < mawk> if you look at the page
2023-01-27T16:21:37 < mawk> NFC-A / ISO14443A and NFC-F / FeliCa™ card emulation
2023-01-27T16:21:37 < mawk> Low level modes to implement MIFARE Classic® compliant or other custom protocols
2023-01-27T16:21:44 < mawk> mifare classic is subset of NFC-A
2023-01-27T16:22:14 < mawk> but I have the xx16 not the xx18
2023-01-27T16:22:29 < mawk> but it still says compatible with mifare classic
2023-01-27T16:22:37 < mawk> right zyp ?
2023-01-27T16:22:56 < zyp> ah, right, low level
2023-01-27T16:23:11 < zyp> so you get to implement the incompatible parts in software, right
2023-01-27T16:26:13 < braindamage> the electrical signaling is compatible, the line data ormat isn't, as long as you can send arbitrary bitstreams, you can get mifare compatibility
2023-01-27T16:28:11 < zyp> mifare *classic* compatibility
2023-01-27T16:28:37 < zyp> the newer mifare stuff is plain 13334A
2023-01-27T16:29:11 < zyp> (i.e. ultralight and desfire)
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2023-01-27T16:38:49 < qyx> my fair pls
2023-01-27T16:40:06 < zyp> my fair lady?
2023-01-27T16:40:36 < qyx> classic only
2023-01-27T17:23:23 < qyx> did tdk/invensense stop making accelerometers?
2023-01-27T17:23:37 < zyp> no?
2023-01-27T17:24:27 < zyp> one of my upcoming projects is swapping in a tdk/invensense accelerometer in a project because the current ST accelerometer in it doesn't behave
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2023-01-27T19:30:10 < mawk> I have this antenna to go with it zyp https://www.feig.de/en/products/identification/product/id-ant340240/
2023-01-27T19:30:23 < mawk> I can skim CCs from 3m away with that
2023-01-27T19:30:46 < zyp> hah
2023-01-27T19:31:08 < mawk> 23.7×33.7 cm
2023-01-27T19:31:37 < mawk> but there's no nice SMA connector on the board
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2023-01-27T19:33:48 < braindamage> at that frequency, cut any trace and solder one on
2023-01-27T19:34:04 < mawk> ah nice
2023-01-27T19:35:00 < mawk> on our nb-iot controller to be able to simulate loss of connection we added a jumper to ground the antenna trace
2023-01-27T19:35:09 < mawk> but even when it was grounded it still got a signal somehow 
2023-01-27T19:35:21 < mawk> the jumper becoming an antenna or something 
2023-01-27T19:35:39 < zyp> yeah
2023-01-27T19:36:24 < zyp> some of my coworkers were trying to reproduce an issue on a nrf9160 related to loss of connection and had a hard time getting it to actually lose connection
2023-01-27T19:36:33 < mawk> yeah
2023-01-27T19:36:41 < zyp> sticking it in a microwave didn't help, shit still linked up
2023-01-27T19:36:47 < mawk> then I put it in the microwave with a pan on top of it and still got connection 
2023-01-27T19:36:50 < mawk> yeah
2023-01-27T19:37:21 < zyp> so I think they had to be pretty destructive before they got it to not connect
2023-01-27T19:37:36 < mawk> indeed
2023-01-27T20:22:00 < karlp> how are you meant ot use https://www.etlcpp.com/circular_buffer.html when pop() returns void? like, how do you consume what's in the circular buffer?
2023-01-27T20:23:36 < zyp> you use one of the end accessors to get at the value before you pop it
2023-01-27T20:24:12 < zyp> hmm, pop() removes the front element, so you use front() to get at it
2023-01-27T20:25:13 < zyp> I figure the reason pop() doesn't return it is because the element might not be copyable, so you'd only ever access it via a reference to where it's stored in the buffer, and then you pop it to discard it when it's done
2023-01-27T20:25:28 < zyp> and if you want a copy, you just make one from front() before you pop it
2023-01-27T20:26:22 < karlp> hrm, that does make sense I guess. given that it can be more than just a uint8 buffer.
2023-01-27T20:26:36 < karlp> heh, c++ explosion errors for me already though. error: redeclaration of C++ built-in type 'char8_t' [-fpermissive] for funtimes already
2023-01-27T20:26:56 < zyp> it's also how pop() in STL works IIRC, so for ETL I assume it's mostly a matter of keeping to established patterns
2023-01-27T20:27:44 < zyp> https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/container/queue/pop
2023-01-27T20:28:05 < karlp> yeah, first time actually _using_ c++
2023-01-27T20:28:22 < karlp> I've _almsot_ got spi slave doing the right thing on ch58x, but it's got responses rotated around, 
2023-01-27T20:28:41 < karlp> and no trace on riscv (yet) so need to debug more than I can do blockinguart prints.
2023-01-27T20:29:29 < zyp> like backwards? sounds like you're accessing the buffer as a stack rather than a queue (pushing and popping on same end instead of opposites)
2023-01-27T20:30:08 < karlp> um, I'm adding this etl shit now, not for the spi slave stuff.
2023-01-27T20:30:17 < karlp> I'm ... already regretting adding etl :)
2023-01-27T20:30:21 < zyp> haha
2023-01-27T20:30:54 < karlp> this is everything the old jokes say about c++ and errors
2023-01-27T20:31:03 < karlp> pages of shit for a single error, and they're trying to be helpful.
2023-01-27T20:31:31 < zyp> :)
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2023-01-27T21:11:04 < qyx> zyp: whoa which one by st/tdk?
2023-01-27T21:11:22 < qyx> there are only 2 or 3 models in stock at mouser now
2023-01-27T21:11:29 < qyx> 3 axis
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2023-01-27T21:18:02 < catphish> is there a programming trick to find the signed difference of 2 numbers that overflow at an arbitrary value?
2023-01-27T21:19:03 < catphish> like s16 = u16 - u16; but for unsigned numbers that overflow at things like 1000
2023-01-27T21:22:49 < specing> catphish: arithmetic modulo 1000 or?
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2023-01-27T21:23:17 < zyp> qyx, IIRC the ST one was a lis2hh12
2023-01-27T21:23:52 < zyp> zero offset varies too much with temperature (and an order of magnitude more than datasheet claims) and too nondeterministic to compensate out
2023-01-27T21:24:35 < catphish> specing: that sounds like what i'm talking about
2023-01-27T21:24:55 < zyp> from the tests I ran it seems to have an internal temperature compensation thing that fucks up and ruins the data instead of fixing it
2023-01-27T21:25:59 < specing> catphish: dunno, I'd just declare the numbers modulo 1000 and let the (Ada) compiler handle it
2023-01-27T21:26:10 < catphish> lol
2023-01-27T21:26:15 < fenugrec> haha ada pusher hard at work
2023-01-27T21:26:19 < specing> xD
2023-01-27T21:26:46 < catphish> for example: 1 - 999 should equal 2, and prhaps more bizarrely 999 - 1 should equal -2
2023-01-27T21:26:53 < specing> I think they're treated as unsigned, though. So not sure if I'd get a signed difference out of it
2023-01-27T21:28:05 < catphish> i suspect the answer will just be regular arithmetic and then some tests on the result, but i was hoping for something magic
2023-01-27T21:28:38 < zyp> catphish, maybe you'll get better advice if you explain what you're actually trying to do
2023-01-27T21:30:02 < specing> catphish: well, do you want a modulo1000 result or not? Because in your first case it is clearly after modulo...
2023-01-27T21:30:46 < zyp> when you say overflow, do you mean wraparound or saturation?
2023-01-27T21:31:15 < specing> that is, do you want a result in [-999, 999] or not..
2023-01-27T21:31:34 < catphish> i have a counter that overflows at an arbitrary value (specifically 144) and represents points around a circle, i want to compare 2 points and find how far they are apart, but signed
2023-01-27T21:32:05 < catphish> the values are 0..143, and i want results in the range -71..+71
2023-01-27T21:32:06 < zyp> yeah, that's just difference modulo 144
2023-01-27T21:32:37 < catphish> is it?
2023-01-27T21:33:22 < zyp> also, if you're a bit more clever about how you're designing this, you'll scale it so instead of 144 your range is a power of two that'll wrap naturally
2023-01-27T21:33:31 < zyp> e.g. 65536 = 360°
2023-01-27T21:35:21 < zyp> anyway, you'd likely want something like int x = (144 + a - b) % 144; if (x > 71) { x -= 144; }
2023-01-27T21:35:26 < catphish> actually the current implementation does exactly that: vaue * 65536 / 144;
2023-01-27T21:35:37 < specing> ((a - b) mod MOD) - MOD/2 ?
2023-01-27T21:35:40 < catphish> but i want to be able to sum the differences without loss of precision
2023-01-27T21:36:23 < catphish> zyp: thanks, that looks like a pretty simple solution
2023-01-27T21:36:45 < zyp> do note that your range will be -72..+71
2023-01-27T21:38:08 < zyp> you've got an even number of values, i.e. an odd number plus zero, so you'll have an uneven number of values on each side of zero
2023-01-27T21:38:13 < catphish> that's absolutley fine, it will never actually be that large
2023-01-27T21:38:21 < fenugrec> "never"
2023-01-27T21:38:36 < catphish> hmm...
2023-01-27T21:40:47 < catphish> well, this number represents the orientation of a motor shaft, and it's sampled at 17.6kHz, so it will reach +/-71 when the motor is spinning at 8800Hz, or 528,000rpm
2023-01-27T21:42:09 < zyp> what's the max rpm of the motor?
2023-01-27T21:46:48 < catphish> good question, it sure seems like the difference might never be more than +/- 1
2023-01-27T21:48:01 < catphish> 18,000 RPM
2023-01-27T21:48:34 < zyp> so ±3?
2023-01-27T21:49:29 < catphish> that's 300Hz * 144 / 17600, so yes +/-3
2023-01-27T21:51:28 < qyx> zyp: the same experience here with iis3dhhc
2023-01-27T21:51:50 < zyp> interesting, can you elaborate?
2023-01-27T21:53:31 < qyx> undeterministic temperature offset drift
2023-01-27T21:53:57 < qyx> ie. it couldn't be correlated with temp changes
2023-01-27T21:55:00 < zyp> here's one of the tests I recorded: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/Zod2l.png
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2023-01-27T21:55:26 < catphish> the problem i currently have it this: a single increment from this encoder causes the motor to instantly increment by 1/144 of a rotation, which doesn't sound like much, but it's quite noticeable
2023-01-27T21:55:27 < zyp> yellow is temp, x is time in seconds, rgb are xyz values relative to start of test
2023-01-27T21:55:29 < qyx> the uncorrelated error was still nearly 0.001 deg overnight (acceleration converted to tilt angles, Z facing upwards)
2023-01-27T21:55:51 < zyp> 0.001 deg?
2023-01-27T21:56:04 < zyp> we saw way more than that
2023-01-27T21:56:20 < qyx> sorry 0.010
2023-01-27T21:56:52 < zyp> I don't remember degrees, but I think we saw errors in the range of ±5% slope
2023-01-27T21:56:59 < qyx> I may dig up the graphs, we were testing it in Sep 2021
2023-01-27T21:57:13 < qyx> hm thats too much
2023-01-27T21:57:17 < zyp> way too much
2023-01-27T21:57:23 < qyx> pcb stress maybe?
2023-01-27T21:57:50 < zyp> look at the red curve in my graph
2023-01-27T21:58:16 < zyp> it increases with increasing temperature, but then starts decreasing way more when temperature is decreasing again
2023-01-27T21:58:23 < qyx> y is in LSB?
2023-01-27T21:58:27 < zyp> yes
2023-01-27T21:58:37 < qyx> 12 bit?
2023-01-27T21:58:47 < zyp> I don't remember, maybe 16
2023-01-27T21:58:51 < qyx> or 16
2023-01-27T21:58:53 < qyx> hm
2023-01-27T21:59:13 < zyp> still, this is a bit extreme, I'm heating it quickly with a heat gun
2023-01-27T21:59:38 < zyp> but the overcompensation when heat is removed looks very wrong
2023-01-27T21:59:39 < qyx> oh lol
2023-01-27T21:59:59 < zyp> as well as suddenly snapping back to saner (but not entirely correct values)
2023-01-27T22:00:20 < qyx> popcorn noise basically?
2023-01-27T22:00:28 < qyx> as a result of heat overstress?
2023-01-27T22:01:31 < qyx> idk whatbs the max allowed dT/dt to be still considered "drift"
2023-01-27T22:02:49 < zyp> here's an excerpt from an email I sent: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/bBNeB.png
2023-01-27T22:02:57 < qyx> but today I got another job which will probably involve some accel measurement so I guess I will do another revision of my accel boards
2023-01-27T22:05:00 < qyx> interesting
2023-01-27T22:06:09 < zyp> so I did some arguing with ST support without getting anywhere, and then it got handed off to coworkers that ran more tests and did some more arguing with ST, still without getting anywhere
2023-01-27T22:07:08 < qyx> if the device is potted, can you replace the accel with another model deadbug style?
2023-01-27T22:07:26 < qyx> and pot it to hold it in place
2023-01-27T22:07:35 < zyp> shit got put on hold for a while, then ended up with «fuckit, let's switch to a different vendor», and now it's on my TODO list to hack up some protos with some tdk/invensense accel instead
2023-01-27T22:07:47 < zyp> I've got unpotted boards as well
2023-01-27T22:08:05 < zyp> and yes, that's what I'm gonna do, I've got some breakout boards with the new accel
2023-01-27T22:08:17 < qyx> maybe deadbugging the original one solves the issue too
2023-01-27T22:08:43 < zyp> unlikely, I think we've already ruled out mechanical stress
2023-01-27T22:08:48 < qyx> this iis3dhhc had ceramic package
2023-01-27T22:09:07 < zyp> this one was a regular black package
2023-01-27T22:09:42 < zyp> hmm
2023-01-27T22:10:04 < zyp> I did some slow cycling in a freezer too, but I don't have the graphs from that available here
2023-01-27T22:10:05 < qyx> pcb-package I mean
2023-01-27T22:10:17 < qyx> not pcb-enclosure
2023-01-27T22:10:39 < zyp> that's what I mean
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2023-01-27T22:17:13 < qyx> oh it was 2020, the time goes by like crazy
2023-01-27T22:17:18 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/SNCpZ/Screenshot_2020-09-17_10-48-42.png
2023-01-27T22:17:39 < qyx> it spans multiple days
2023-01-27T22:18:57 < qyx> the peak at 2020-09-06 midnight was remounting it with X and Y exchanged, rotating and tilting it a bit
2023-01-27T22:19:49 < qyx> the drift is pretty large, but much of it can be temperature-compensated
2023-01-27T22:23:24 < bitmask> can someone build me a laser galvo controller? k thx
2023-01-27T22:28:18 < zyp> qyx, ah, I found some more of my test data
2023-01-27T22:28:20 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/6SRAI.png
2023-01-27T22:28:29 < zyp> that's four cycles
2023-01-27T22:39:33 < qyx> I can't read it
2023-01-27T22:40:13 < zyp> x is temperature, y is accelerometer value
2023-01-27T22:41:00 < zyp> shit starts somewhere around 0, 0 and trends to the right when temperature increases
2023-01-27T22:41:20 < zyp> and coming down it trends back left and upwards at the same time
2023-01-27T22:41:33 < zyp> before it snaps back at some point
2023-01-27T22:41:35 < qyx> it helps when the axes are marked + units used
2023-01-27T22:41:48 < qyx> hm
2023-01-27T22:41:49 < zyp> raw LSB on both
2023-01-27T22:42:08 < qyx> so it tries to compensate in steps
2023-01-27T22:42:32 < zyp> so anyway, if the points on this graph was one line, you could use it as a correction function
2023-01-27T22:42:48 < zyp> yep
2023-01-27T22:42:58 < qyx> which tdk part are you going to use,
2023-01-27T22:43:22 < zyp> don't remember, I didn't pick it
2023-01-27T22:43:47 < qyx> ICM-42688-P here, but this one is not available anymore
2023-01-27T22:43:55 < qyx> and some IIM now
2023-01-27T22:43:57 < zyp> and I'm too lazy to vpn to the office to get the updated schematic
2023-01-27T22:44:34 < qyx> I didn't do much testing on those TDK accels, I have two
2023-01-27T22:44:39 < qyx> I may run some
2023-01-27T22:45:27 < zyp> I expect our customer will test it thoroughly, because he's got plenty of unusable devices with ST accels now, and I don't think he wants another series of unusable devices :p
2023-01-27T22:46:23 < qyx> lol
2023-01-27T22:47:44 < qyx> now, a semantic versioning and product lifecycle issue arose
2023-01-27T22:47:54 -!- kaki [~kaki@37-136-97-208.rev.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##stm32
2023-01-27T22:48:05 < qyx> I have a board in 1.0.0-a.2 revision now preparing to a final 1.0.0 release
2023-01-27T22:48:15 < qyx> and I want to add a feature
2023-01-27T22:48:26 < qyx> but I am not allowed to, my OCPD doesn't allow it
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2023-01-27T22:50:51 < Laurence_b> https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/jYdmcrgAj5odTunCT/demodex-mites-large-and-neglected-group-of-wild-animals
2023-01-27T22:52:50 < kaki> yep
2023-01-27T22:53:13 < kaki> is this start of OCD for Laurence_b?
2023-01-27T22:53:49 < Laurence_b> https://res.cloudinary.com/cea/image/upload/v1674817660/mirroredImages/u2CEKKtAGMCi39Bxu/nulfx3vbwvmz55zqokpd.png
2023-01-27T22:55:28 < kaki> Laurence_b obsessivelly soaping himself?
2023-01-27T22:57:23 < Laurence_b> lol
2023-01-27T23:02:50 < qyx> also, unrelated, any recommended device for scoping in the uV range?
2023-01-27T23:02:56 < qyx> x1000 preamp or so
2023-01-27T23:04:21 < jbo> is it the year of the linux desktop yet?
2023-01-27T23:04:33 < kaki> when I was a kid I obsessed about germs and shit
2023-01-27T23:04:53 < kaki> but I also ate cow shit and snails
2023-01-27T23:05:25 < kaki> eating an unprepaired snail can kill you btw.
2023-01-27T23:05:30 < kaki> parasites
2023-01-27T23:05:51 -!- Suspect [~rod@2001:8004:11a0:d70:adde:af1:c606:1949] has joined ##stm32
2023-01-27T23:06:01 < jbo> we're very greatful that you're here with us - not having died
2023-01-27T23:06:16 < kaki> oh nice
2023-01-27T23:06:26 < jbo> :)
2023-01-27T23:06:29 < qyx> a very performant childhood
2023-01-27T23:07:04 < kaki> also "these berries are poisonous"
2023-01-27T23:07:16 < kaki> and then I ate them berries
2023-01-27T23:07:29 < Laurence_b> final destination is real https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64430454
2023-01-27T23:07:30 < kaki> not that poisonous
2023-01-27T23:07:33 -!- turnip420 [~machinehu@2600:381:4920:56dc:9c77:3593:a7ee:12d6] has joined ##stm32
2023-01-27T23:08:19 < kaki> Laurence_b: that loo pops out of the street?
2023-01-27T23:08:48 < kaki> then person goes in and it's hidraulic press time?
2023-01-27T23:09:10 < Laurence_b> yeah
2023-01-27T23:09:34 < fenugrec> qyx, what BW you need will make much $$ difference
2023-01-27T23:10:25 < qyx> fenugrec: < 1 kHz
2023-01-27T23:10:34 < fenugrec> lecroy has (had ?) DA1820/1820 diff preamps with 1-1000 gain, SRS has single-ended preamps too with possibly better low-freq noise performance
2023-01-27T23:11:18 < fenugrec> sr560 is the one I was thinking of
2023-01-27T23:12:26 < qyx> $2600?
2023-01-27T23:12:42 < fenugrec> never used one, can't afford. Instead I make shitty JFET amps https://pasteboard.co/dd6YL5l6swaA.png
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2023-01-27T23:14:00 < zyp> I thought for a moment you said uA range and was about to mention the joulescope
2023-01-27T23:14:14 < qyx> https://www.picotest.com/products_J2180A.html
2023-01-27T23:14:18 < qyx> that's crazy
2023-01-27T23:14:39 < qyx> I will probably make one from a low noise zero drift INA
2023-01-27T23:15:03 < fenugrec> yea at 1kHz it's definitely in the simple LNA / INA opamp territory
2023-01-27T23:15:21 < fenugrec> high bandwidth + high Z + low noise is stupid difficult
2023-01-27T23:16:45 < fenugrec> heh that J2180A "0.3Vpp max" - probably has a very naked jfet input buffer
2023-01-27T23:17:26 < qyx> https://www.alphalabinc.com/product/lna10/
2023-01-27T23:17:31 < qyx> this is relatively cheap
2023-01-27T23:18:29 < kaki> everybody going analog?
2023-01-27T23:20:23 < fenugrec> going analog makes me feel dumb, it's not something I do often or for long. "Oh gee of course just operate at higher Id, higher Gm, and a cascode will increase BW etc etc"
2023-01-27T23:21:13 < qyx> I can't do analol
2023-01-27T23:21:14 < fenugrec> qyx lna10  looks nice yeah, they seem to have done good noise characterization
2023-01-27T23:21:23 < qyx> but there are more things in life you can't do and have to do
2023-01-27T23:23:20 < zyp> same
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2023-01-27T23:30:43 < qyx> I am investigating some possibilities of a test signal generation, configurable amplitude 20 mVpp max, sine/square DC to 50 Hz
2023-01-27T23:31:02 < qyx> a DDS chip fed with a 32768 Hz xtal would be nice
2023-01-27T23:31:19 < qyx> with an attenuator on its output
2023-01-27T23:31:41 < qyx> but I am tempted to just use a L0 with LSE and DAC
2023-01-27T23:32:11 < rustyaxe> Hmm
2023-01-27T23:32:20 < rustyaxe> what max you need?
2023-01-27T23:32:41 < qyx> max of what
2023-01-27T23:32:52 < rustyaxe> AD has some nice chips, ive got ad9833 (12mhz max) and 9951 i havent figured out yet (thinking it well may be a chinese fake chip, tbh)
2023-01-27T23:33:14 < qyx> 50 Hz
2023-01-27T23:33:19 < qyx> hm lets check
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2023-01-27T23:35:27 < qyx> it looks good, I'll check them
2023-01-27T23:35:40 < qyx> freq /1000 would be better
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2023-01-27T23:45:45 < karlp> lol: https://github.com/WCHSoftGroup/ch347/blob/main/OpenOCD_CH347/ch347_jtag.c#L693-L700
2023-01-27T23:46:30 < zyp> oh, I've written shit like that before
2023-01-27T23:47:12 < karlp> oh, I get what it's for, but "open source" that is not...
2023-01-27T23:48:31 < mawk> I'd use X macro for that
2023-01-27T23:48:43 < mawk> there's a comment in chinese on top
2023-01-27T23:48:46 < mawk> lol
2023-01-27T23:53:01 < qyx> dll no worky for you?!
2023-01-27T23:53:28 < zyp> just load it through wine
2023-01-27T23:53:51 < mawk> you can call your library .dll even on linux
2023-01-27T23:54:04 < mawk> they don't care about extension
--- Day changed la tammi 28 2023
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2023-01-28T00:12:24 < rustyaxe> qyx: fwiw ad983x can propduce sine, triangle, and square waves from 0.1hz to 12.5mhz with fairly reasonable accuracy, especially for such a cheap chip
2023-01-28T00:12:54 < aandrew> heh, uhmodule
2023-01-28T00:13:03 < qyx> cheap? 18 eur?
2023-01-28T00:13:23 < rustyaxe> well you can get the bare chip too :P
2023-01-28T00:13:26 < aandrew> qyx: I was looking at something similar but high freq (RF)
2023-01-28T00:13:31 < rustyaxe> i dont think i paid nearly that
2023-01-28T00:13:41 < rustyaxe> I do believe i got 3x for ~20$ USD
2023-01-28T00:13:47 < aandrew> that sent me down a rather deep rabbit hole and now I feel anything built would be shit. :-)
2023-01-28T00:13:51 < rustyaxe> I use one for my beacon on 7mhz :)
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2023-01-28T00:14:22 < qyx> g0 is 3 eur and can do more features I probably (don't) need
2023-01-28T00:14:24 < rustyaxe> ad9951 seems hella promising but its hard to get a genuine chip on a dev board for under 300$
2023-01-28T00:15:45 < rustyaxe> but yea, you probably dont need the precision im needing doing RF :)
2023-01-28T00:16:29 < qyx> i do need freq precision down to 0.001 Hz
2023-01-28T00:16:39 < qyx> in the range 0-50 Hz
2023-01-28T00:20:50 < aandrew> that's pretty dang precise. will that part produce a waveform down that slow?
2023-01-28T00:21:00 < aandrew> a lot of these have lower freq limits
2023-01-28T00:21:22 < rustyaxe> hmm it says 0.1hz minimum
2023-01-28T00:23:50 < qyx> but I could probably live with only a few discrete points
2023-01-28T00:23:55 < qyx> idk
2023-01-28T00:24:51 < qyx> it is a self calibration module for a measurement system measuring frequencies of about 1.5 Hz
2023-01-28T00:26:09 < qyx> there is a lot of things which can go wrong and I am trying to have a possibility to independently check if it !easures correctly, at 
2023-01-28T00:26:27 < qyx> least a rough amplitude and precise freq
2023-01-28T00:27:51 < qyx> so my current plan is a G051 with ADC, DAC, TCXO amd a slave I2C
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2023-01-28T00:34:28 < Laurence_b> sheeetttt
2023-01-28T00:34:35 < Laurence_b> babby monitoring crew are in court
2023-01-28T00:34:44 < Laurence_b> never saw this coming /s
2023-01-28T00:35:11 < Laurence_b> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-64422598
2023-01-28T00:37:22 < rustyaxe> wut
2023-01-28T00:41:04 -!- ferdna [~ferdna@user/ferdna] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
2023-01-28T00:42:34 < specing> Laurence_b: explain more please
2023-01-28T00:48:01 -!- Streaker [~Streaker@user/streaker] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
2023-01-28T00:49:01 < josuah> specing: the sad event of the death of a child at an hospital was turned against the medical care team who could have been preventing the lack of oxygen if they had more active presence to supervise how every little one is going.
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2023-01-28T00:49:51 < josuah> the managers of the team seems more directly accused than the workers
2023-01-28T00:49:55 < specing> josuah: s/the medical care team/ the management/
2023-01-28T00:50:08 < specing> maternity ward was understaffed it seems
2023-01-28T00:50:27 < specing> still don't see what that has to do with Laurence_b 's babby monitoring crew
2023-01-28T00:50:33 < josuah> I suppose all medical anything?
2023-01-28T00:51:11 < josuah> in particular around COVID
2023-01-28T00:51:15 < josuah> specing: as that not a reaction to the article?
2023-01-28T00:52:09 < josuah> <kaki> everybody going analog?
2023-01-28T00:52:20 < josuah> I wish but I miss a degree or two in EE for that!
2023-01-28T00:52:37 < josuah> might come progressively across other projects though :)
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2023-01-28T01:13:32 < braindamage> it was the same hospital/department that was collaborating with his research
2023-01-28T01:14:33 < Laurence_b> yeah
2023-01-28T01:14:38 < Laurence_b> https://news.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=22735529&cid=63245685
2023-01-28T01:18:50 < catphish> i have this 17.6kHz control loop, and it receives the position of my motor shaft (144 values per rotation), the speed of the motor means the value might change by up to +/- 3 points on each iteration, but at slower speeds, it may only change by one unit every 10 or 100 iterations, all the way down to never. i'm trying to work out how to filter this input so that the change in input is more evenly distributed over time, while ensuring it doesn't drift, at 
2023-01-28T01:18:50 < catphish> its simplest, i imagine i want each change in input to be reflected in 1/n change in output over n cycles
2023-01-28T01:23:20 < braindamage> are you doing that with position sample latency? otherwise you'll have to predict future values, and be prepared to deal with corrections of false predictions
2023-01-28T01:23:51 < braindamage> the latter can be problematic if you just impulsively correct the reading when it arrives
2023-01-28T01:31:02 < catphish> well it seems i have to either 1) make predictions and handle prediction failures, or 2) delay the input, but never predict future input
2023-01-28T01:31:51 < catphish> the simple algorithm of simply spreading each movement over a time period that follows is an example of (2) though i don't know if that will cause any problems
2023-01-28T01:32:04 < catphish> and i still haven't quite worked out how to implement it
2023-01-28T01:35:21 < catphish> the problem i have is that right now, at zero speed, my algorithm might be rotating the motor's stator field at 1Hz. if the rotor changes potition by one unit, that instantaneously moves the field by 5 degrees (1/72 of a circle). at 1Hz that's a noticeable bump
2023-01-28T01:37:45 < catphish> i want those impulses to be spread over a longer period so that they blend into the very low frequency output
2023-01-28T01:44:17 < braindamage> for spreading out: you can take the average rotation speed of the past n times, do a discrete derivative for acceleration and project for the next bin
2023-01-28T01:44:26 < zyp> catphish, hah, I was expecting you'd ask about this next when you asked about the modulo stuff earlier today :)
2023-01-28T01:45:10 < catphish> i actually did write an algorithm for this last year https://github.com/catphish/sdu-basic/blob/master/main.c#L56
2023-01-28T01:45:26 < braindamage> your time frames are sufficiently small that probably even without accleration term will work out
2023-01-28T01:46:50 < braindamage> also: if you have errors, you can distribute those as well, just have to make sure that they'll decay to 0 before next check
2023-01-28T01:47:16 < bitmask> my goal is a +/- 20V DC supply, the schematic im following uses switchers to get both voltages from 12V dc, should I follow that or should I use a 24V AC supply I have?
2023-01-28T01:47:18 < zyp> what sort of encoder is this? can you measure update rate with input capture instead of doing sampling at 17.5kHz?
2023-01-28T01:48:32 < catphish> zyp: i considered that, but there's a couple of complications, 1) it's an AB encoder, so i'd need to compare different edges on 2 inputs 2) i care about the direction
2023-01-28T01:48:52 < zyp> I figured
2023-01-28T01:49:18 < braindamage> bitmask: +20V and -20V? concurrently? and be able to be chained? you cannot do from 24V without boosting
2023-01-28T01:49:30 < catphish> the implementation above might work if i change the encoder to be modulo 2^16 rather then modulo 144
2023-01-28T01:49:54 < bitmask> not chained if you mean what i think
2023-01-28T01:50:15 < bitmask> so no, not concurrently
2023-01-28T01:50:21 < zyp> but I wonder if you couldn't still have one timer do quadrature decoding and still get it to trigger another timer to measure update rate
2023-01-28T01:50:59 < braindamage> bitmask: it means you can never have a common ground between them
2023-01-28T01:51:02 < catphish> zyp: i looked into that a while back but couldn't find a way to chain timers in that way
2023-01-28T01:51:11 < zyp> maybe not
2023-01-28T01:51:18 < bitmask> oh, yea umm maybe i'll just stick with dc
2023-01-28T01:51:47 < braindamage> the ac's not a problem, it's just that you're trying to get 40V out of ~30
2023-01-28T01:51:49 < bitmask> whats a good switcher that can be used for inverting? I only need 1-2 amps
2023-01-28T01:52:01 < braindamage> you can do that only with boosting
2023-01-28T01:52:40 < braindamage> (or well, you could use a transformer, but that'd be chonky, not to mention, expensive )
2023-01-28T01:57:48 < Laurence_b> lol this is honest https://www.permabond.com/resource-center/silicone-bonding/
2023-01-28T01:58:18 < Laurence_b> sheet catphish is working on hyperloop motor it seems
2023-01-28T01:58:24  * Laurence_b has this problem
2023-01-28T01:58:57 < catphish> this is the encoder in question https://i.imgur.com/KVkFleH.jpg
2023-01-28T01:59:10 < Laurence_b> I use a kalman filter to predict position and rotational velocity for hyperloop motor
2023-01-28T01:59:26 < Laurence_b> it includes voltage and current measurements as well as encoder data
2023-01-28T01:59:55 < Laurence_b> woah nice hardware
2023-01-28T02:00:04 < Laurence_b> I'm guessing that was ripped off something?
2023-01-28T02:00:14 < catphish> tesla model S drive unit
2023-01-28T02:00:18 < Laurence_b> ah cool
2023-01-28T02:00:39 < Laurence_b> I was trying to work out how Tesla cool the windings - that a problem with the hyperloop motor
2023-01-28T02:01:04 < Laurence_b> atm we are using encapsulation in silicone + aluminium nitride powder
2023-01-28T02:01:12 < catphish> it's now in my car https://i.imgur.com/Ee8FQrU.jpg
2023-01-28T02:01:15 < Laurence_b> tesla seem to use a more conventional resin
2023-01-28T02:01:49 < Laurence_b> thats a vauxhall lol
2023-01-28T02:01:54 < catphish> yes it is
2023-01-28T02:02:24 < Laurence_b> nice work
2023-01-28T02:02:35 < Laurence_b> have you looked at vedder on github?
2023-01-28T02:02:46 < catphish> nope
2023-01-28T02:03:08 < Laurence_b> we looked at it for hyperloop, but decided it didnt have the safety and interface features we needed
2023-01-28T02:03:15 < Laurence_b> might be useful for something else tho
2023-01-28T02:03:41 < catphish> this is the project i work on / use: https://github.com/jsphuebner/stm32-sine
2023-01-28T02:03:45 < Laurence_b> oh - also the core data processing was rather basic - the nice thing about vedder is the gui and really pro sensorless control
2023-01-28T02:04:12 < catphish> nothing sensorless in openinverter though
2023-01-28T02:04:23 < Laurence_b> https://github.com/vedderb/bldc
2023-01-28T02:04:39 < catphish> i just rewrote the induction motor control algorithm
2023-01-28T02:05:07 < Laurence_b> wait does it have induction motor or permanent magnet?
2023-01-28T02:05:11 < catphish> to replace V/Hz control with an algorithm based on closed loop current and slip control
2023-01-28T02:05:16 < catphish> induction
2023-01-28T02:05:37 < catphish> i like induction motors
2023-01-28T02:06:06 < Laurence_b> ah ok
2023-01-28T02:06:20 < Laurence_b> why do you need a good encoder position then?
2023-01-28T02:06:34 < Laurence_b> oh for slip.. ok
2023-01-28T02:06:50 < Laurence_b> much less challenging than permanent magnet tho
2023-01-28T02:07:04 < catphish> well actually, position doesn't matter, only the velocity matters
2023-01-28T02:07:29 < catphish> which makes me realise i'm worrying way too much about keeping this accurate
2023-01-28T02:09:07 < catphish> it doesn't actually need to stay in sync at all
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2023-01-28T03:01:11 < fenugrec> few days ago someone posted a pdf of slides by ST showing ways of chaining timers, pretty sure there was a few scenarios showing one tmr in Quadrature mode triggering other timers
2023-01-28T03:03:58 < fenugrec> they definitely have motor control in mind when they design these peripherals 
2023-01-28T03:04:04 < josuah> fenugrec: I pasted that obnoxiously long link about STM32C0 timers, not sure if that was related: https://www.st.com/content/ccc/resource/training/technical/product_training/group1/66/65/13/8d/79/18/49/c9/stm32c0-wdg-timers-general-purpose-timer/files/stm32c0-wdg-timers-general-purpose-timer.pdf/jcr:content/translations/en.stm32c0-wdg-timers-general-purpose-timer.pdf
2023-01-28T03:04:58 < josuah> https://paste.josuah.net/electronics/2023-01-28-020633_1314x737_scrot.png
2023-01-28T03:05:49 < josuah> not that I understand anything of it though ^_^
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2023-01-28T03:29:43 < fenugrec> I need to get a PoE adapter like this https://imgur.com/PVZui
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2023-01-28T03:48:17 < kaki> :o
2023-01-28T03:48:34 < catphish> hopefull this will work: https://paste.debian.net/1268727/
2023-01-28T03:50:44 < catphish> oh, it doesn't quite, i need to do the wrapping again on the second diff
2023-01-28T03:56:40 < catphish> this should do it https://paste.debian.net/1268728/ but its kinda verbose, i can probably cut out the first half by just making the hardware counter bigger and modulo'ing it anythwere else it's used
2023-01-28T04:00:20 < catphish> saner now, the first half done in hardware: https://paste.debian.net/1268730/
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2023-01-28T04:16:04 < catphish> now lossless: https://paste.debian.net/1268733/
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2023-01-28T04:24:37 < bitmask> ugh how do you choose a boost regulator? 
2023-01-28T04:25:28 < rustyaxe> Well, you usually just push it til the engine starts to feel...unhappy..and back off a bit.. I prefer the atmospheric compensated style
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2023-01-28T06:31:03 < fenugrec> bitmask, easy : buy whatever is not backordered till 2047
2023-01-28T06:31:11 < bitmask> heh
2023-01-28T06:34:26 < fenugrec> if you miss the '80s, mc34063
2023-01-28T06:35:37 < fenugrec> else, https://github.com/karlp/zypsnips/blob/master/boost_regulators
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2023-01-28T16:48:13 < karlp> we don't have a lot of notes on boost yet, feel free to suggest more
2023-01-28T16:52:33 < qyx> oh I wanted to send an update for that AP thing and MAX25231
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2023-01-28T17:04:45 < karlp> meh, just paid 10000kr to buy a tiny plastic bit inside the dishwasher.  
2023-01-28T17:04:56 < karlp> entire dishwasher is only maybe 7 times that.
2023-01-28T17:06:06 < karlp> ok, they've gone up, cheap ones are more like 90 now, still expensive.
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2023-01-28T18:51:59 < catphish> today i am angry with a current waveform https://openinverter.org/forum/download/file.php?id=21347&mode=view
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2023-01-28T20:18:34 < jpa-> karlp: why not just print it
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2023-01-28T20:46:35 < fenugrec> ##bossa32 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-e7EplJr8Y
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2023-01-28T21:58:40 < Laurence_b> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-64434453
2023-01-28T21:58:41 < Laurence_b> lol
2023-01-28T21:58:55 < Laurence_b> bbc discovers jln-labs from 20 years ago
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2023-01-28T23:10:32 < Laurence_b> Germany will send 14 tanks initially, and then (get this) the total supply by the end is intended to be 88.
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2023-01-28T23:25:42 < Laurence_b> doh I fail
2023-01-28T23:26:06 < Laurence_b> TIL: butyl rubber sealant works for DIY double glazing panels
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2023-01-28T23:26:15  * Laurence_b had been using PU sealant before
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2023-01-29T04:11:08 < catphish> i cannot figure out what's causing this mess of a waveform :( https://i.imgur.com/uGgw6D0.png
2023-01-29T04:12:58 < catphish> these are 2 phases of a 3 phase motor, clearly something is wrong, but can't figure out what kind of bug or hardware fault might cause that specific mess
2023-01-29T04:13:24 < catphish> it's supposed to be 2 sine waves
2023-01-29T04:29:39 < aandrew> bad third harmonic might explain the inversion at the peaks but not the rest
2023-01-29T04:32:46 < catphish> the PWM voltage outputs contain matching harmonics, they're suppoed to cancel each other out, but maybe they're insufficiently linear and don't
2023-01-29T04:43:47 < catphish> i'll start by removing the min/max svpwm modulation, will make it clearer to debug if nothing else
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2023-01-29T11:56:09 < catphish> i disabled the SVPWM offsets, and it still makes no sense at all :( https://i.imgur.com/21qvfFI.png
2023-01-29T11:56:15 < catphish> something is fucked
2023-01-29T11:59:22 < BrainDamage> are the waves fucky even if you disconnect the motor?
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2023-01-29T14:20:20 < karlp> jpa-: no design available for it, quite complicated part, would need a hot plastic, I did think about it, but just out of my league to make design it and debug a print
2023-01-29T14:22:22 < karlp> fenugrec: nice track
2023-01-29T14:33:24 < jbo> meh... this is one of those moments where I wish I'd keep a stockpile of random optocouplers around
2023-01-29T14:33:43 < zyp> you still wouldn't have the right one
2023-01-29T14:33:54 < zyp> that's the problem with random stockpiles
2023-01-29T14:34:42 < jbo> indeed
2023-01-29T14:34:54 < jbo> hence I don't have a random stockpile of optocouplers :D
2023-01-29T14:47:03 < catphish> BrainDamage: if i disconnected the motor there'd no current at all :)
2023-01-29T14:53:13 < Steffanx-> Yet I'm a little disappointed you don't have the right one, jbo 
2023-01-29T14:54:11 < BrainDamage> oh, I misread, I thought it was the voltage
2023-01-29T14:54:47 < BrainDamage> in that case, does it still glitch if the rotor is stalled?
2023-01-29T14:55:10 < zyp> catphish, what doesn't make sense? the third harmonic?
2023-01-29T14:55:48 < catphish> zyp: yes, the third harmonic
2023-01-29T14:55:58 < catphish> it shouldn't be there, and i don't know why it's there :(
2023-01-29T14:56:14 < catphish> the rotor is stationary
2023-01-29T15:05:09 < jbo> Steffanx-, me too
2023-01-29T15:12:59 < josuah> well in that case...
2023-01-29T15:13:39 < josuah> jbo: I wish I was living in Shenzen https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/the-essential-guide-to-electronics-in-shenzhen
2023-01-29T15:13:49 < josuah> the last place where you could find just the right optocoupler downstreet?
2023-01-29T15:14:03 < josuah> Maybe some UK or US warehouse have local stores too
2023-01-29T15:14:38 < Steffanx-> Are the chinese back to work yet though?
2023-01-29T15:15:01 < zyp> there's a couple of stores in akihabara in tokyo with decent selections of common parts too
2023-01-29T15:15:22 < josuah> Steffanx-: in Feb 1st I think
2023-01-29T15:15:55 < zyp> probably far from shenzhen levels, but still
2023-01-29T15:16:07 < josuah> zyp: great! where is my plane ticket again...
2023-01-29T15:17:01 < josuah> Maybe there are some in Namba Parks too...
2023-01-29T15:18:57 < zyp> idk, I haven't spent enough time in osaka to learn what I can find where
2023-01-29T15:20:21 < josuah> how is tokyo as a gaijin? :)
2023-01-29T15:21:00 < zyp> I like it
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2023-01-29T15:50:21 < josuah> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc6f_2nPSX8 japan and robotics...
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2023-01-29T18:46:26 < kaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqa_Uyz1pBE
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2023-01-29T19:51:54 < catphish> it's my suspicion now that this weird waveform is a consequence of oversaturating a field in my motor
2023-01-29T19:59:26 < catphish> it hadn't really occurred to me, but motor current may need to vary with frequency
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2023-01-29T20:06:31 < catphish> more likely, i just don't know what the magnetiing current should be
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2023-01-29T20:34:11 < kaki> Steffanx-: musics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTw9LRFdUeE
2023-01-29T20:35:35 < kaki> lan night yesterday
2023-01-29T20:37:21 < Steffanx-> To stay slightly ontopic. FUCKING AWFUL, kaki  
2023-01-29T20:37:42 < kaki> this musics plays in csgo when enemy team is t-bagging you
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2023-01-29T20:47:47 < Steffanx-> Good i dont play csgo then :P
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--- Day changed ma tammi 30 2023
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2023-01-30T01:12:28 < fenugrec> cool LTSpice feature I learned about today :  https://ltwiki.org/?title=Undocumented_LTspice#Stepping_a_Model
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2023-01-30T02:50:00 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/pic/orig/media%2FFethXt0XoAAKbD3.jpg
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2023-01-30T03:02:30 < specing> lmao
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2023-01-30T19:35:49 < josuah> that stm32c0 has quite the low consumption current for shutdown mode: https://paste.josuah.net/electronics/2023-01-30-183546_1157x613_scrot.png
2023-01-30T19:36:31 < josuah> extreme minimal 9 nA (0.009 uA) at 25 degC at 2V
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2023-01-30T20:23:42 < Steffanx-> Not so bad indeed :)
2023-01-30T20:35:38 < qyx> what for is that
2023-01-30T20:36:44 < qyx> that is years on a single smallish anything
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2023-01-30T23:00:14 < josuah> I was only wondering about replacing ATtiny chip on that charger, here to turn on/off the boost converter and check inf anything drags current from it.
2023-01-30T23:00:47 < josuah> it is too late on the project for any change anyway (they are all produced)
2023-01-30T23:03:05 < josuah> much better than attiny for wake-on-interrupt, a 10x worse for wakeup by RTC
2023-01-30T23:05:07 < josuah> it did not help that this is the only chip that is not supported by avr-gcc (ATtiny102, where ATtiny202 is an entire different serie)
2023-01-30T23:08:33 < karlp> anyone know off the top of their head if any of the stm32h7s have a usb-hs phy? ore are they all ULPI only?
2023-01-30T23:12:02 < qyx> yes there are some
2023-01-30T23:12:14 < qyx> F7 too, F723 afaik or something similar
2023-01-30T23:12:56 < qyx> I remember they conflicted with ethernet on the one I used
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2023-01-30T23:24:21 < karlp> no, if I'm buying a board, it has to be h7 or u5,
2023-01-30T23:24:24 < karlp> need this spi v3 shits
2023-01-30T23:24:36 < karlp> just want the "best" one :)
2023-01-30T23:25:13 < zyp> karlp, I think you need to get one in bga157 or whatever to get internal HS phy
2023-01-30T23:25:16 < qyx> meh I don't expect H7 to be available anytime soon :S
2023-01-30T23:27:48 < karlp> h723 I guess is best nucleo
2023-01-30T23:28:42 < zyp> I need to get some of the dualcore ones, I'm curious how they're hooked up internally
2023-01-30T23:28:46 < karlp> over 900 h7b0s at $7 in singles ready for assembly: https://jlcpcb.com/parts/componentSearch?isSearch=true&searchTxt=stm32h7
2023-01-30T23:29:20 < karlp> h723 is the best in stock nucleo I can find n mouser
2023-01-30T23:29:32 < karlp> I wonder hat else I want then...
2023-01-30T23:44:08 < karlp> hrm, what's with the digital temperature sensor in the h723?
2023-01-30T23:44:10 < karlp> weird.
2023-01-30T23:50:14 < karlp> it appears to be a) less linear, less accurate, higher consumption...
2023-01-30T23:53:00 < rustyaxe> man a dual core stm32 would be sweet inside my radio
2023-01-30T23:54:08 < zyp> going by the h747 RM, the debug infrastructure looks pretty reasonable, it's got one SWJ-DP with multiple APs
2023-01-30T23:57:33 < zyp> new enough that the DP is a DPv2 too :)
--- Day changed ti tammi 31 2023
2023-01-31T00:05:08 < karlp> ok, enough faffing about.
2023-01-31T00:36:59 < jbo> yo zyp o/
2023-01-31T00:37:14 < zyp> sup
2023-01-31T00:37:33 < jbo> playing around in KiCAD as I didn't feel like paying another 10k to altidongs
2023-01-31T00:38:02 < zyp> don't you have a perpetual license?
2023-01-31T00:38:07 < jbo> I do
2023-01-31T00:38:09 < jbo> but whatever
2023-01-31T00:38:29 < jbo> currently trying to make some libraries. I seem to have "forgotten" a lot of stuff the last three years
2023-01-31T00:38:39 < jbo> such as: how to make a nice footprint
2023-01-31T00:38:59 < zyp> IPC footprint wizard
2023-01-31T00:39:25 < jbo> aye
2023-01-31T00:39:36 < jbo> are you using KiCAD these days?
2023-01-31T00:39:53 < zyp> nope
2023-01-31T00:40:07 < zyp> got too much altium muscle memory to bother
2023-01-31T00:40:15 < jbo> heh
2023-01-31T00:40:22 < jbo> I only have AD19 left I think.
2023-01-31T00:40:42 < zyp> I'm still on AD15 :)
2023-01-31T00:41:07 < jbo> kicad6 does seem to be a more streamlined experience
2023-01-31T00:41:15 < jbo> (compared to previous kicad versions, not compared to altium)
2023-01-31T00:46:01 < jbo> when doing something like an SOIC footprint. rectangular pads are fine, right? kicad defauls to rectangular with rounder corners
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2023-01-31T00:51:45 < Laurence_b> top kek https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64376727
2023-01-31T00:51:51 < Laurence_b> although musk is still cringe
2023-01-31T00:52:40 < Laurence_b> >posted a picture of guns by his bedside
2023-01-31T00:53:00 < Laurence_b> thought it was literally toy guns and he was trollin
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2023-01-31T00:58:33 < fenugrec> what's the problem with rect pads ?
2023-01-31T01:06:02 < jbo> dunno, just wondering why one would default to rectangular-rounded
2023-01-31T01:07:16 < fenugrec> hm it's plain rectangles here, don't think I ever changed the default but maybe it changed "recently"
2023-01-31T01:07:33 < qyx> always rounded rectangles by default
2023-01-31T01:07:49 < qyx> at least here
2023-01-31T01:07:55 < qyx> I used that even in google
2023-01-31T01:08:04 < qyx> sorry, eagle
2023-01-31T01:08:33 < fenugrec> rounded rectangles maybe helps routing a tiny bit in a tight row of pads where the trace bends 45deg a bit earlier that with plain rect
2023-01-31T01:09:07 < qyx> I hate rectangular anything, I would use toporouter-style tracks if it was easy
2023-01-31T01:09:25 < fenugrec> is that the curved-spaghetti style ? heh
2023-01-31T01:09:51 < rustyaxe> Speaking of doing pcb layouts.. I have laptop. 13.1" screen lol. Useless for layout.. But what's minimal realistic screen size to comfortably work on some PCB about 6"x6" at the biggest?
2023-01-31T01:10:23 < rustyaxe> maybe 24" wide screen?
2023-01-31T01:10:37 < fenugrec> I've done lots of layout on a 15" screen...
2023-01-31T01:11:09 < rustyaxe> fenugrec: Probably a decent bit higher resolution, hopefully
2023-01-31T01:11:11 < fenugrec> 13 a bit smal though yea
2023-01-31T01:11:28 < rustyaxe> 1366x768 isnt room enought do much at all
2023-01-31T01:11:58 < fenugrec> 1920x1080 on 15" is usable, but you'll find out soon enough. a dense 6x6 layout may be challenging
2023-01-31T01:12:28 < rustyaxe> i can get a ~27" "4k" LED for ~200$ which is about what the boards i want to avoid paying 40-50$/each for (unpopulated). Plus i need to learn kicad anyways
2023-01-31T01:14:09 < rustyaxe> Pretty simple board and not quite how i want it to work anyways, i dont want microprocessor on the same board as the RF sections :O
2023-01-31T01:16:29 < fenugrec> qyx like this ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqT4ZYGB3VY
2023-01-31T01:17:16 < rustyaxe> im assuming i prolly wanna avoid curved, yea? Especially if i might be planning to add more screens? (never seen curved in person)
2023-01-31T01:21:36 < qyx> rustyaxe: I used two 4:3 1280x1024 eizo screens in the past,it was the best setup I've ever had
2023-01-31T01:22:03 < qyx> single 23" full-hd is somehow usable
2023-01-31T01:30:06 < jbo> I once had to worked on a curved setup and I hated it
2023-01-31T01:30:33 < jbo> I currenlty run 32" 4k center display and two 27" 2.5k left/right in portrait mode
2023-01-31T01:30:48 < jbo> much nicer IMHO
2023-01-31T01:31:26 < fenugrec> eizo monitors, 32" monsters, you guys are loaded
2023-01-31T01:31:41 < jbo> used to be, then covid
2023-01-31T01:32:17 < jbo> but I'm all +1 on qyx's 4:3 eizo setup. those rule
2023-01-31T01:32:42 < fenugrec> I have an awful  LG 22 + noname 17" that predates DVI
2023-01-31T01:33:04 < jbo> that's alright man
2023-01-31T01:33:08 < fenugrec> I can see the contrast & saturation change as I move my head
2023-01-31T01:33:16 < jbo> lol
2023-01-31T01:35:29 < jbo> if you end up running linux it doesn't matter anyway >D
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2023-01-31T01:38:55 < fenugrec> I don't think software can fix a cheapo lcd with a super narrow viewing angle...
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2023-01-31T01:39:56 < fenugrec> most linux sw doesn't handle 4k / hidpi very well anyway so I'm going to be in 1080p land for a while
2023-01-31T01:50:24 < catphish> it's a shame, linux looks beautiful in 4k until you run into an app that doesn't support it and it's suddenly garbage, it's a shame there's no built in scaling
2023-01-31T01:52:09 < qyx> fenugrec: they were 70 eur second hand
2023-01-31T01:55:41 < fenugrec> that sounds like an outstanding deal
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2023-01-31T03:15:47 < catphish> i figured out the mystery current in my motor is a negatiive 5th harmonic https://i.imgur.com/21qvfFI.png
2023-01-31T03:18:15 < catphish> SIN(n) - SIN(n*5) / 5
2023-01-31T03:19:27 < catphish> now i just need to work out why
2023-01-31T03:57:46 < fenugrec> if you low-pass the PWM signal on one of the gates is it a nice sine ?
2023-01-31T03:58:13 < fenugrec> if you run the motor at much lower currents is the effect still there ?
2023-01-31T03:58:42 < fenugrec> and to state the obvious, how confident are you in your current measurement
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2023-01-31T04:15:15 < Phantom> hi there, stm32f103   what is the peak power consumption?
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2023-01-31T09:16:56 < qyx> Phantom: exct values are in the datasheet
2023-01-31T09:18:29 < jpa-> though "peak" consumption will depend on how many GPIOs you have accidentally shorted to ground
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2023-01-31T10:04:36 < benishor> ohai
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2023-01-31T11:08:23 < karlp> iirc, latest ipc guidelines are for rounded rectangles, at least for any pads of more "modern" sizes, or at least, rounded paste apertures, and no meaningful difference on pads themselves, so just round them both.
2023-01-31T11:08:45 < karlp> something to do with superior stencil removal and related.
2023-01-31T11:09:13 < karlp> I certtainly can't imagine going, "oh, this tool is defaulting ot rounded, it must be wrong, I shoudl go and use square ones"  but perhaps I'm not "independent" enough of a swisser
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2023-01-31T11:25:35 < zyp> qyx, I did a bit more looking at muxes, kinda looks like SN74CB3Q3251 is the shit
2023-01-31T11:26:07 < zyp> same bandwidth as TMUX1308, but way lower Ron
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2023-01-31T11:30:41 < zyp> not sure what the catch is, other than it looks like an older part with a higher current draw
2023-01-31T11:33:28 < zyp> also twice the price
2023-01-31T11:38:57 < zyp> saner looking footprint too, channels are in order
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2023-01-31T11:46:57 < karlp> heh, reading some change notes from a colleague, talks about all these MPEG diodes.
2023-01-31T11:47:01 < karlp> was having a very wtf moment.
2023-01-31T11:47:10 < karlp> he's consistently mis-transcribed PMEG
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2023-01-31T12:15:19 < Steffanx-> Lol
2023-01-31T12:16:29 < jpa-> i bet MPEG diodes would require license fees to use
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2023-01-31T13:25:40 < qyx> zyp: iirc that's the one all HF SDR radio guys are using for direct IQ demod
2023-01-31T13:25:59 < qyx> or was it CBT something, but 3251 rings a bell
2023-01-31T13:29:53 < PaulFertser> So they show https://www.discountbank.co.il/DB/sites/marketing.discountbank.co.il/files/styles/banner_page/public/174271_banners_1920x200px_avtahat_meida_5.jpg along with "You have safely logged off your account" notice. As if this combination lock can be associated with any kind of "safety" one expects from a bank?
2023-01-31T13:32:20 -!- Posterdati [~Posterdat@user/Posterdati] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
2023-01-31T13:34:11 < jpa-> well, the lock is also open even if you have logged out :)
2023-01-31T13:40:55 < PaulFertser> Good point. They are really insane. Logging in requires knowing not only your main password but also an additional password that they generate once and send via SMS when you first get account. No TOTP, no anything. Just this fake 2FA where both factors are essentially combined into one anyway.
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2023-01-31T13:53:37 < karlp> shush....
2023-01-31T13:53:47 < karlp> repeat after me: sms's are secure
2023-01-31T13:53:52 < karlp> do not question this...
2023-01-31T13:54:02 < karlp> do not question that the second factor is the same factor
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2023-01-31T13:59:25 < karlp> hrm, need 14 euro to get to free shipping.
2023-01-31T13:59:45 < jpa-> spend more to save more
2023-01-31T14:00:27 < zyp> qyx, any reason not to use it?
2023-01-31T14:10:06 < karlp> well, shipping is 20€, so yeah, somewhat.
2023-01-31T14:10:51 < drzacek> karlp, add some cheese to shopping cart
2023-01-31T14:11:09 < zyp> I don't think I've ever ordered from digikey or mouser and paid for shipping, always got something to pad the order with if I only need some small stuff
2023-01-31T14:11:32 < zyp> that's partly how I end up with a ton of devboards I've never used
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2023-01-31T15:39:40 < karlp> meh, supply voltage 1.65 - 5V.  control pin voltage high threshold: > 2.4V.
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2023-01-31T15:43:07 < fenugrec> the 'catch' on a super low Rds_on anaswitch is probably massive charge induction
2023-01-31T15:43:11 < fenugrec> *injection
2023-01-31T15:43:34 < fenugrec> don't be using that with grandma's sample&hold
2023-01-31T15:46:40 < jpa-> https://e2e.ti.com/support/switches-multiplexers-group/switches-multiplexers/f/switches-multiplexers-forum/824507/tmux1108-compared-with-sn74cb3q3251-which-is-better-for-a-400mhz-equivalent-pulse   heh yeah, TI says "we haven't even measured charge injection on SN74CB3Q3251"
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2023-01-31T16:14:18 < jbo> hey guys - I´m trying to find some ´test lead wire kit´. basically just the wire/cable used for 4mm test leads so I can build my own. Any idea where to get something like that?
2023-01-31T16:15:54 < karlp> huh. neat. one of the earlier anaswitches I was using, which I didn't want to use because Ron was too high, _does_ let me use select voltages at 1.5V, 
2023-01-31T16:15:57 < karlp> fack..
2023-01-31T16:16:30 < jpa-> jbo: umm, you mean just basic silicone wire?
2023-01-31T16:16:55 < jbo> jpa-, jup. I seem to recall that mouser once had a kit of 5 colors 10m each for like 80.- EUR or something
2023-01-31T16:18:03 < jpa-> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/filter/single-conductor-cables-hook-up-wire/474?s=N4IgjCBcoMwEwWiAxlAZgQwDYGcCmANCAPZQDaIALGGDAJwAMIAukQA4AuUIAyhwE4BLAHYBzEAF8iAWjhRQqSAICuhEuRABWFlJDS68lFBVrSkChGYTdANkOCAJt2lgGEdl0ggQRDgE82PG4MHFRrIA
2023-01-31T16:18:11 < jbo> looking for something like this: https://www.mouser.ch/ProductDetail/Cal-Test/CT4403?qs=CiayqK2gdcIXHXQ2g1LPVg%3D%3D
2023-01-31T16:18:17 < jbo> but then just more wire I guess (these are just 2m)
2023-01-31T16:18:38 < jpa-> ct2878?
2023-01-31T16:18:59 < jbo> indeed
2023-01-31T16:19:05 < jbo> 10m 25.- 
2023-01-31T16:19:17 < jpa-> though that is 21AWG
2023-01-31T16:19:58 < jpa-> CT2837 for 18AWG
2023-01-31T16:20:57 < jbo> lets call it an investment, I guess
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2023-01-31T16:25:23 < jpa-> though looks like caltest wire is not even silicone, just plain old PVC
2023-01-31T16:25:33 < jpa-> that you can get cheaper, e.g. https://www.tme.eu/en/details/lify1x0.75-rd/test-leads/lapp/4560016s/
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2023-01-31T16:27:06 < jpa-> Miyu: when will you grow into a hackcat?
2023-01-31T16:33:04 < jbo> jpa-, yeah you´re right. those are PVC :(
2023-01-31T16:33:16 < jbo> silicone is just so much nicer
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2023-01-31T16:37:38  * hackkitten h4x0rs
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2023-01-31T18:40:09 < karlp> I sure wouldn't pay that much for pvc shit.
2023-01-31T18:57:35 < karlp> what's pre-order on lcsc again? you can't have them, but you can buy them, and use them in assembly orders?
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2023-01-31T19:02:36 < jpa-> karlp: yeah, i think that's what it means
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2023-01-31T20:02:50 < machinehum> https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA138283.pdf
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2023-01-31T20:16:15 < zyp> karlp, you mean on jlcpcb?
2023-01-31T20:16:20 < zyp> if so, yes
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2023-01-31T22:12:02 < machinehum> https://imgur.com/a/4WyItbQ why does current get forced through D2 when C1 bottom goes to 5V
2023-01-31T22:12:18 < machinehum> I don't get it, aren't both sides of the capacitor at 5V
2023-01-31T22:12:25 < machinehum> Same potential
2023-01-31T22:13:32 < machinehum> And even moreso, when it starts charging up you have like 5V on the bottom and 6V on the top, why would current go through D2
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2023-01-31T22:17:35 < zyp> machinehum, that looks like a typical voltage doubler
2023-01-31T22:17:40 < machinehum> Yeah
2023-01-31T22:17:50 < zyp> so if I'm reading it right, V1 is constant 5V, V2 is pulsing 5V?
2023-01-31T22:18:22 < machinehum> Yes, but I just realised my labeling in insane let me fix it
2023-01-31T22:18:37 < zyp> so the voltage between the diodes is V2 plus the voltage across the capacitor
2023-01-31T22:19:18 < zyp> when V2 is 0, that voltage will be below 5V and so voltage is flowing from V1 through D1 and charging C1
2023-01-31T22:19:38 < machinehum> Cool got that much
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2023-01-31T22:20:25 < zyp> when V2 is 5V, you get 5V plus whatever the voltage the cap is charged to since they're in series, which will be higher than 5V so D1 will be blocking, and if C2 is charged to a lower voltage, current will now flow through D2 to charge C2
2023-01-31T22:21:06 < machinehum> Why do those voltages add? Are they not just both 5V?
2023-01-31T22:21:17 < zyp> because they're in series
2023-01-31T22:21:22 < zyp> voltages in series add
2023-01-31T22:21:34 < zyp> two 1.5V batteries in series gives you 3V
2023-01-31T22:21:48 < machinehum> What's in series?
2023-01-31T22:21:55 < zyp> C1 and V2
2023-01-31T22:22:24 < zyp> if C1 is charged to 3V and V2 goes to 5V, you've got 8V total
2023-01-31T22:22:58 < machinehum> That makes sense now yeah
2023-01-31T22:23:24 < machinehum> V1 and V2 can share a ground?
2023-01-31T22:23:42 < zyp> yes
2023-01-31T22:24:32 < zyp> I mean, typically V2 is just a pair of transistors hooking the low side of the capacitor to vcc or gnd
2023-01-31T22:24:49 < machinehum> That what I was going to do yeah
2023-01-31T22:28:50 < zyp> how about just some shit like https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lm2665.pdf ?
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2023-01-31T22:36:46 < karlp> zyp: no, I meant on lcsc, but I think it only applies to jlcpcbs, yes.
2023-01-31T22:38:27 < machinehum> zyp: I do like all these part suggestions, I should ask before I build all the bullshit
2023-01-31T22:41:38 < qyx> mhm 650 uA operating idle current for battery power?
2023-01-31T22:41:42 < qyx> and 90% efficiency
2023-01-31T22:42:03 < qyx> probably a proper buck/boost can beat this
2023-01-31T22:42:26 < qyx> but but *inductorless*
2023-01-31T22:46:30 < zyp> true, a decent boost will probably beat it
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--- Log closed ke helmi 01 00:00:44 2023