--- Log opened ke helmi 01 00:00:44 2023
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2023-02-01T01:41:48 < Phantom> <jpa-> though "peak" consumption will depend on how many GPIOs you have accidentally shorted to ground
2023-02-01T01:42:01 < Phantom> yeah, seems like the answer might be 58+shorted gpio
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2023-02-01T07:04:26 < josuah> oh GREAT, so the display (which does not work) is now producing SOUND! >_<
2023-02-01T07:05:05 < josuah> XD there is no speaker in here!
2023-02-01T07:05:20 < josuah> piezzoelectric effect I presume...
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2023-02-01T07:14:47 < josuah> no no no no this is better than that
2023-02-01T07:14:54 < josuah> it is the Camera that produces sounds
2023-02-01T07:17:42 < josuah> imagine the dad-joke potential of that situation
2023-02-01T07:39:39 < josuah> in the end, it seems that to convert from the high-frequency of digital signal to the low frequency of audio, we built an accidental piezo buzzer
2023-02-01T07:39:47 < josuah> the whole board is boot looping very fast
2023-02-01T07:40:22 < josuah> which means the power rails turn on then off then on then off then on then off producing a square wave that might be making a tiny thing somewhere move somehow
2023-02-01T07:40:33 < josuah> maybe the flex along with that 10V power rail...
2023-02-01T07:41:02 < josuah> thankfully the FCC did not see that XD XD XD
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2023-02-01T08:22:55 < qyx> josuah: ceramic caps on the vreg
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2023-02-01T08:47:32 < jpa-> in my ebike controller i get the motor sounds from the control unit caps and not from the motor :)
2023-02-01T08:48:08 < Phantom> on purpose or unwanted sound?
2023-02-01T08:48:15 < BrainDamage> can you pwm them to make them go vroom vroom?
2023-02-01T08:48:34 < jpa-> Phantom: unwanted
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2023-02-01T09:50:21 < josuah> qyx: thank you, I might just be new to random hardware beeping and be overly hyped here.
2023-02-01T09:50:53 < josuah> Phantom: unwanted sound, unless we can indeed make it go vroom vroom
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2023-02-01T11:44:32 < qyx> karlp: 24 V -> 5 V, ~6-8 A, which one did you use?
2023-02-01T11:44:53  * qyx browsing ti.com
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2023-02-01T12:27:18 < karlp> sic4xx
2023-02-01T12:27:27 < karlp> 437 I think, the newer one.
2023-02-01T12:27:30 < karlp> there's a range there.
2023-02-01T12:28:22 < karlp> https://github.com/karlp/hubbish/tree/master/r2022-10 is working and tested, but the power good is wrong, and there's a couple of niggles, they're unrelated to the pwoer supply section though.
2023-02-01T12:28:35 < karlp> I've not produced another round of it.
2023-02-01T12:29:36 < karlp> really should update the front page of that repowith the rev3 testing results.
2023-02-01T12:29:48 < qyx> 50 μA operating current not switching
2023-02-01T12:30:12 < qyx> is that the "optimised measurement"?
2023-02-01T12:30:25 < karlp> don't care, didn't measure, won't measure.
2023-02-01T12:30:59 < qyx> nah not relevant in this case either
2023-02-01T12:31:04 < qyx> looks good
2023-02-01T12:31:17 < karlp> I certainly can't test just that portion by itself meaningfully to those levels.
2023-02-01T12:31:47 < qyx> hm but 28 V max
2023-02-01T12:32:05 < karlp> sic437 was a) in stock on mouser, b) matched the specs, c) was cheap, and bonus d) is also available for jlc assembly.
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2023-02-01T12:32:24 < qyx> ok fuk ti, let's search mouser instead now
2023-02-01T12:32:24 < karlp> if you say 24V, I hear 24V.
2023-02-01T12:32:35 < qyx> yeah but that's 24 V nominal :P
2023-02-01T12:32:37 < karlp> if you say 24V and mean, "maybe ona truck, at 45V sometimes..."
2023-02-01T12:32:54 < karlp> 24+- 10% is fine.
2023-02-01T12:33:32 < karlp> even 15%...
2023-02-01T12:33:46 < karlp> at a certain point, people are just never fucking happy :)
2023-02-01T12:34:19 < karlp> was looking at rs485 transceivers yesterday, exar has some that wil happily take like 100V
2023-02-01T12:35:19 < qyx> I am happy with your selection but not very happy with the guy connecting a lifepo4 pack to the input
2023-02-01T12:35:53 < karlp> stop pretending you have 24v then :)
2023-02-01T12:36:08 < karlp> how many cells do you have? isn't there a hard upper limit on volts per cell?
2023-02-01T12:36:46 < qyx> yes there is, they call it a 24 V accu pack :>
2023-02-01T12:36:52 < qyx> 29.2 V
2023-02-01T12:37:05 < qyx> 20 V minimum cutoff
2023-02-01T12:37:31 < qyx> SiC471, SiC472, SiC473, SiC474
2023-02-01T12:37:32 < qyx> great
2023-02-01T12:37:38 < qyx> 4.5 V to 55 V Input, 3 A, 5 A, 8 A, 12 A
2023-02-01T12:37:56 < qyx> plenty of stock too
2023-02-01T12:39:27 < qyx> ultrasonic power save mode, no singing, much great
2023-02-01T12:39:29 < qyx> thanks
2023-02-01T12:40:50 < karlp> footprints are pretty special, but, works good, very happy.
2023-02-01T12:41:04 < karlp> it was the biggest smps I'd ever built too, so quite pleased :)
2023-02-01T12:41:40 < karlp> they have some wonky part variants that require external 5v as well, just pay attention
2023-02-01T12:42:56 < karlp> yeah nicec stock and lead time on those sic47x parts.
2023-02-01T12:43:29 < karlp> sic471 is on jlc parts too :)
2023-02-01T12:44:13 < jbo> I completely forgot about that awesome nice feeling of opening a digikey package lol
2023-02-01T12:44:36 < qyx> how is jbo's lifepo4, no fire yet,
2023-02-01T12:45:07 < jbo> it has been sitting in the box until now
2023-02-01T12:45:29 < qyx> I am about to do a rackmount bat pack soon
2023-02-01T12:45:39 < jbo> nice!
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2023-02-01T12:49:44 < qyx> any ideas for a "current power consumption" indicator, something 10x15 mm and not OLED?
2023-02-01T12:50:09 < qyx> oh there are those things from 1980s, 7 segment LED
2023-02-01T12:50:51 < drzacek> ehm
2023-02-01T12:51:15 < drzacek> analog meter? as in, small arrow rotating right/left?
2023-02-01T12:54:55 < jbo> qyx, https://www.adafruit.com/product/574
2023-02-01T12:56:16 < qyx> hm, a RGB LED will be good
2023-02-01T12:56:24 < qyx> -enough
2023-02-01T12:56:39 < karlp> qyx: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/liteon/LTA-1000HR/153273 if you're goign retro
2023-02-01T12:57:08 < karlp> you can get different versions that are red/yellow/green too
2023-02-01T12:57:19 < qyx> lol yeah I was browsing bargraphs 30 secs ago at TME :D
2023-02-01T12:57:32 < qyx> sounds feasible too
2023-02-01T12:57:39 < karlp> ok, I've finished kicadding, off to work then.
2023-02-01T12:57:53 < qyx> even better would be a WS281x bargraph
2023-02-01T12:58:06 < karlp> because you love software?
2023-02-01T12:58:36 < qyx> I would use greenpak like zyp
2023-02-01T13:00:04 < zyp> you'd be a bit limited in how many bars you could make though :)
2023-02-01T13:01:37 < zyp> unless you do some analog trickery
2023-02-01T13:01:40 < qyx> I think this is the classic example of bikeshedding
2023-02-01T13:02:04 < qyx> I should do the rest of the board first
2023-02-01T13:02:57 < zyp> I guess you could do some capacitor charge/discharge time trick, starts concurrently with led refresh and then you turn on leds until you hit threshold, then turn off the rest
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2023-02-01T13:57:17 < drzacek> 8-bit ADC with 8-LEDs connected to it?
2023-02-01T13:58:46 < karlp> nah, go straight for one of the china power meter chips with freq output, connect that straight up as the pwm for a led .)
2023-02-01T14:03:15 < drzacek> single pwm led? nah, then I'd rather see ws281x progress bar
2023-02-01T14:04:21 < qyx> green, everything ok and idle power is within limits, orange - the system is doing something and is drawing more than idle power, red - reaching PSU limits, blinking red - overcurrent triggered
2023-02-01T14:05:07 < qyx> oh I forgot blue, how dare I
2023-02-01T14:06:28 < drzacek> form a json and send it to server
2023-02-01T14:06:31 < drzacek> make it display on touch panel
2023-02-01T14:08:20 < BrainDamage> qyx: make the near-overload protection make a sound
2023-02-01T14:08:47 < BrainDamage> if overload protection trips it's too late to take measures
2023-02-01T14:09:17 < drzacek> ^ have mosfet activate heavy-duty fan and make it push air thorugh those squeeky-chicken toys
2023-02-01T14:10:01 < BrainDamage> and unless your eyes happen to be on the power display, you wouldn't see a visual alert
2023-02-01T14:10:12 < drzacek> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElLtNohlATU
2023-02-01T14:14:56 < karlp> no-one looks a thte leds anyway.
2023-02-01T14:15:45 < qyx> correct, hardwire a green led to the PSU
2023-02-01T14:15:51 < qyx> drop the others
2023-02-01T14:16:03 < qyx> it should work all the time
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2023-02-01T14:27:15 < drzacek> make it release smoke when over the limit
2023-02-01T14:27:24 < drzacek> that usually draws user attention
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2023-02-01T15:20:58 < chris_99> Hi, wondering if someone might be able to point me in the right direction, re. setting timer2 interrupt, for an stm32wb55, i'm setting the interrupt period by doing: HAL_RCC_GetPCLK1Freq() * my_timeperiod (in seconds), and using timer2 to drive DMA interrupts for an ADC.  I pass a sine wave to the ADC, that is 50Hz, but my calculation shows the sine wave from the ADC data as 25Hz, so i'm thinking i've possibly set timer2 
2023-02-01T15:20:58 < chris_99> incorrectly.  I was under the impression timer2 frequency is based on HAL_RCC_GetPCLK1Freq, so if i set a period to be HAL_RCC_GetPCLK1Freq, it would trigger interrupts each second, but maybe i'm missing something?
2023-02-01T15:24:31 < jpa-> make it toggle GPIO pin and check with scope if frequency is correct?
2023-02-01T15:25:00 < jpa-> or check the timer and RCC registers with debugger and compare with reference manual
2023-02-01T15:25:44 < chris_99> that sounds a sensible idea, will try the gpio pin idea first
2023-02-01T15:33:24 < chris_99> jpa-: i assume by toggling gpio, the frequency would be 1/2 of the frequency of timer2 right?
2023-02-01T15:34:22 < jpa-> if you set it to PWM mode with e.g. 50% duty, it should match the timer frequency
2023-02-01T15:34:39 < jpa-> if you toggle in IRQ or similar, it will be half
2023-02-01T15:35:15 < chris_99> ah, yeah i was thinking of IRQ, will look at pwm mode too then, ta
2023-02-01T15:38:26 < jpa-> also typically you want the timer to trigger the ADC, and the ADC will then trigger DMA
2023-02-01T15:42:31 < chris_99> yeah, i believe that's how it's working, i did -     hadc1.Init.ExternalTrigConvEdge = ADC_EXTERNALTRIGCONVEDGE_RISING; hadc1.Init.DMAContinuousRequests = ENABLE;
2023-02-01T15:44:18 < jpa-> probably yeah
2023-02-01T15:50:55 < karlp> hope you don't want to use that adc and bluetooth at the same time...
2023-02-01T15:52:32 < chris_99> nah, i don't, but would that not work?
2023-02-01T15:53:16 < karlp> there's a fun table of peripherals and operating modes for the wb, spread over two pages,
2023-02-01T15:53:39 < karlp> you can't have adc and bluetooth both in low power.
2023-02-01T16:30:42 < \dev\ice>  
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2023-02-01T16:34:38 < karlp> cool, well said.
2023-02-01T17:00:31 < chris_99> jpa-: just probed the freq, by using an interrupt and toggling, which gave 1kHz output, and set the period of timer2 to HAL_RCC_GetPCLK1Freq() * 1e-3, so it must be somehow setting the timer2 freq to 2kHz i guess
2023-02-01T17:03:22 < chris_99> the value of HAL_RCC_GetPCLK1Freq() is 16e6, but could it somehow be double that
2023-02-01T17:18:58 < karlp> rcc pclk1 is one thing, but there's also the double for the timers.
2023-02-01T17:19:03 < karlp> have a look at your clock tree.
2023-02-01T17:19:48 < karlp> you're seeing 16MHz at the pclk1 node, (or, timewarp is telling you that at least)
2023-02-01T17:20:12 < karlp> see section 8.2.17 of the RM, do you fall into the x2 case?
2023-02-01T17:21:20 < chris_99> ah cheers, RM is what sorry?
2023-02-01T17:21:36 < karlp> the Reference Manual.
2023-02-01T17:21:40 < karlp> what's your system clock?
2023-02-01T17:21:45 < karlp> is it 16, or higher?
2023-02-01T17:23:46 < chris_99> thanks, just checked the crystal is 32MHz, assuming that's what you mean?
2023-02-01T17:24:49 < karlp> no, I mean, what's your sysclk :)
2023-02-01T17:24:59 < karlp> you have pclk1 at 16mhz, 
2023-02-01T17:25:14 < karlp> so the hardware si either giving double that to the timers, if the apb1 clock divider is "not 1"
2023-02-01T17:25:25 < karlp> so. is your system clock running at 16, or not 16.
2023-02-01T17:26:11 < karlp> you may have something in timecubewarp to show you a clock tree?
2023-02-01T17:26:27 < karlp> or some HAL_RCC_Get... something that can tell you the sysclk or hclk?
2023-02-01T17:26:40 < karlp> I don't speak cube-oid sorry.
2023-02-01T17:27:53 < chris_99> HAL_RCC_GetHCLKFreq gives me 16MHz
2023-02-01T17:32:23 < chris_99> looking at the ref manual it says apb1,2 can be x2 like you said, i assume i can read that from a register, will dig into what that is
2023-02-01T17:34:25 < josuah> > what's your sysclk
2023-02-01T17:34:36 < josuah> dammit I just read "what's your system clock?" a second time here
2023-02-01T17:34:46 < josuah> information blindess striking again
2023-02-01T17:35:31 < josuah> I like stm32 clock tree, all merged into sysclk (likely the bus clock?) and divided again
2023-02-01T17:36:04 < josuah> single clock domain!
2023-02-01T17:37:22 < karlp> if you have hclk == 16 and pclk1 == 16, then you should be getting timer clk of 16 too.
2023-02-01T17:37:25 < karlp> so it's something else.
2023-02-01T17:37:42 < karlp> because that meansyour apb divider is 1, so you get x1 to the timers, not x2.
2023-02-01T17:39:55 < karlp> if I want to use a full bridge for driving a piezo, are htere out of the box full bridge chips?  I can see quad fet packages like DMHC3025 which would owrk, but they're $1, and obviously designed for way bigger loads.
2023-02-01T17:40:56 < karlp> I mena, a pair of 2n7002s works too, but seems like I might be missing osmething
2023-02-01T17:44:40 < josuah> karlp: I often run into not finding the cheap generic part for one very popular use-case, and then figure out there is a dedicated chip for that.
2023-02-01T17:44:50 < fenugrec> h bridge with N-fets everywhere means you need provisions for driving the high-side gate high enough
2023-02-01T17:44:54 < josuah> i.e. shift registers? -> segment led drivers
2023-02-01T17:45:31 < josuah> so maybe there are cheap piezo drivers that are specialized full bridges?
2023-02-01T17:45:35 < karlp> fenugrec: that quad fet is two p, two n, but  still, seems like i'm missing something.
2023-02-01T17:47:00 < fenugrec> all I know is piezo implies capacitive load and driving them linearly can be challenging. On/off switching, dunno
2023-02-01T17:47:14 < fenugrec> it's basically still a cap
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2023-02-01T18:00:30 < qyx> karlp: vdsl drivers, mosfet gate drivers
2023-02-01T18:00:47 < karlp> gate drivers still need fest themselves though surely?
2023-02-01T18:00:54 < qyx> no
2023-02-01T18:01:11 < qyx> select correct ones with enough peak rating and average current rating
2023-02-01T18:01:42 < qyx> and vdsl drivers are basically power amps with multi MHz bandwidth
2023-02-01T18:01:53 < qyx> motor drivers are usually too slow
2023-02-01T18:02:01 < qyx> but on the other hand, high voltage
2023-02-01T18:02:44  * qyx opens an aisler box
2023-02-01T18:02:47 < karlp> cheapest "gate driver" on mouser isn't at all what I was looking for, but it's cool: DZDH0401DW
2023-02-01T18:03:21 < karlp> I don't need multi mhz, it's going to a fucking piezo, it's got like 4khz of bandwidth...
2023-02-01T18:06:28 < qyx> but your baseband freq is not 4 kHz
2023-02-01T18:06:33 < qyx> more like 40 kHz
2023-02-01T18:06:59 < qyx> oh what, you mean an audible frequency piezo?
2023-02-01T18:07:53 < qyx> a buzzer?
2023-02-01T18:08:03 < karlp> yeah.
2023-02-01T18:08:16 < karlp> I've got a broken christmas decoration that is loved.
2023-02-01T18:08:26 < qyx> meh, one gate 74 whatever 125 fed with 5 V
2023-02-01T18:08:44 < qyx> the other end cap to ground
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2023-02-01T18:14:13 < karlp> thsi looks good: https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/MOSFETs_ALLPOWER-ShenZhen-Quan-Li-Semiconductor-AP4580_C2849569.html
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2023-02-01T19:19:32 < BrainDamage> where's jadew, I have covid, I have to cough all over him
2023-02-01T19:26:38 < Steffanx-> 1st time?
2023-02-01T19:29:39 < BrainDamage> yes
2023-02-01T19:34:34 -!- jmcgnh [~jmcgnh@wikipedia/jmcgnh] has quit [Excess Flood]
2023-02-01T19:36:21 < karlp> whee, well done.
2023-02-01T19:36:35 < karlp> I'm running out of people I know who've dodged it.
2023-02-01T19:39:09 -!- jmcgnh [~jmcgnh@wikipedia/jmcgnh] has joined ##stm32
2023-02-01T19:39:38 < Steffanx-> I dodged it so far
2023-02-01T19:40:23 < zyp> that's what happens when you never go outside
2023-02-01T19:40:35 < Steffanx-> Haha if only that was the case
2023-02-01T19:41:19 < Steffanx-> And even that's no guarantee, someone in the house had to spend a week in quarantaine. 
2023-02-01T19:43:23 < Steffanx-> And i might have been without symptoms. Who knows.
2023-02-01T19:48:18 < BrainDamage> I think I got it when I went friday to my niece's birthday party, my sister exagerated and invited 25 people
2023-02-01T19:48:28 < BrainDamage> also, buffet style food
2023-02-01T19:49:44 < jpa-> i haven't knowingly had covid yet
2023-02-01T19:50:22 < Steffanx-> Maybe zyp's argument does apply to you (too) jpa-  :)
2023-02-01T19:50:42 < jpa-> we have a flu magnet in preschool, it has been very effective
2023-02-01T19:51:18 < Steffanx-> Hah, joy
2023-02-01T19:51:49 < fenugrec> a so-called "flu capacitor" ?
2023-02-01T19:52:22 < BrainDamage> I instantly suspected covid because I had an unusual symptom that I also had after the vaccine: skeletal/join pain
2023-02-01T19:53:40 -!- Suspect [~rod@2001:8004:1160:cf2:c012:8ce:8133:998d] has joined ##stm32
2023-02-01T20:15:42 < Steffanx-> i think jadew once said he wasnt so scared of covid anymore. He accepted this faith.
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2023-02-01T20:44:05 < qyx> with covid you are not able to rotate a single cap in a layout
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2023-02-01T22:34:31 < Laurence_b> Hello this thread is retarded, please accept my apologies if you are a literal drooling retard
2023-02-01T22:48:44 -!- Thorn [~Thorn@user/thorn] has joined ##stm32
2023-02-01T22:49:35 -!- qyx [~qyx@84.245.120.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
2023-02-01T22:50:33 < Laurence_b> today hyperboss had a shocking revelation
2023-02-01T22:50:46 < Laurence_b> he is wondering if the SJWs have gone too far...
2023-02-01T22:51:29 -!- qyx [~qyx@84.245.120.52] has joined ##stm32
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2023-02-01T23:02:34 < PaulFertser> Laurence_b: got one too many in your place?
2023-02-01T23:09:06 < specing> Laurence_b: tell us more
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2023-02-01T23:20:53 < Thorn> Laurence_b you're going to like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfNjv6NsdFI
2023-02-01T23:33:17 < qyx> what's the difference between WEEE symbol and WEEE symbol with that bar on the bottom?
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2023-02-01T23:36:42 < qyx> https://www.unit3compliance.co.uk/weee-symbol-with-or-without-bar/
2023-02-01T23:37:29 < qyx> so tell me why kid's WOODEN puzzle has BOTH symbols side-by-side
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2023-02-01T23:39:37 < BrainDamage> 1st april submission
2023-02-01T23:56:10 -!- duude__ [~duude__@user/duude/x-4676560] has joined ##stm32
--- Day changed to helmi 02 2023
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2023-02-02T00:10:44 < jbo> meh.... somehow I really don't like KiCADs approach of "symbol & footprint are two completely unrelated things". How well does this work out in practice for you guys?
2023-02-02T00:10:59 < jbo> I mean I get it for resistors and stuff but it seems like already for something as simple as an LM317 it fails
2023-02-02T00:11:08 < jbo> cuz of pin ordering and stuff
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2023-02-02T00:14:25 < qyx> footprint has a standard pin ordering in 99% of cases
2023-02-02T00:14:45 < qyx> I never had any issues with that
2023-02-02T00:15:57 < jbo> qyx, so let's take LM317. It exists in many packages such as TO-220, TO-252-3 and so on. in TO-252-3, Vout is on the tap (essentially pin 4) whereas on the TO-220 it would be pin 2.
2023-02-02T00:16:12 < jbo> or is TO-252-3 always so that the tab is connected to pin 2 no matter what?
2023-02-02T00:16:54 < jbo> ref: https://www.mouser.ch/datasheet/2/308/LM317M_D-1810713.pdf
2023-02-02T00:19:35 < qyx> yes pin 2 is connected to pin 4, but thats only one special case
2023-02-02T00:19:45 < jbo> so how do you deal with that in KiCAD?
2023-02-02T00:20:38 < qyx> parts have suffixes for different footprints, just do another symbol, make correct pin numbering, assign a footprint
2023-02-02T00:21:00 < qyx> sometimes it is possible to reause the symbol for multiple footprints
2023-02-02T00:21:11 < qyx> but that's not always the case
2023-02-02T00:22:39 < jbo> so you would create a separate footprint for the LM317 TO-252-3  ?!
2023-02-02T00:23:12 < qyx> do they have different numbering? no
2023-02-02T00:24:25 < jbo> but... LM317 in TO-252 variant has Vout on pin 4 (the tab) whereas the TO-220 variant has Vout on pin 2
2023-02-02T00:24:26 < qyx> kikecad has tab on pin 2
2023-02-02T00:24:39 < qyx> no
2023-02-02T00:24:42 < qyx> datasheet says that
2023-02-02T00:24:59 < jbo> so does every TO-252-3 package have the tab connected to pin 2?
2023-02-02T00:25:45 < qyx> i think you are solving an nonexistent issue
2023-02-02T00:26:03 < jbo> I think I'm just not understanding it.
2023-02-02T00:26:06 < jbo> hence asking ;-)
2023-02-02T00:26:09 < jbo> so what about my last question?
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2023-02-02T00:26:25 < qyx> I don't know, I haven't checked them all
2023-02-02T00:27:11 < jbo> of the ones you know you never encountered a TO-252-3 package where the tab wasn't connected to pin 2?
2023-02-02T00:29:41 < qyx> no, besides that I am not using to-252 for the last 10 years or so
2023-02-02T00:29:58 < qyx> LF33 was probably the last one
2023-02-02T00:30:25 < kaki> is there any standard for canbus in db-9?
2023-02-02T00:30:46 < kaki> quick google gives all kind of results
2023-02-02T00:30:55 < kaki> basically randomized pin positions
2023-02-02T00:31:04 < qyx> I only know m12
2023-02-02T00:31:20 < qyx> devicenet, canopen, nmea2000
2023-02-02T00:32:00 < josuah> kaki: maybe they are specific to one protocol on top of CAN
2023-02-02T00:32:06 < josuah> for one use-case in particular
2023-02-02T00:32:11 < kaki> ah
2023-02-02T00:32:19 < josuah> not sure CAN has any open connector
2023-02-02T00:32:27 < josuah> s/open/standard/
2023-02-02T00:32:33 < josuah> maybe widespread ones
2023-02-02T00:33:04 < josuah> it looks like one of these thing where the core spec from bosch is published, and everyone add another thing on top, most of the time tries to standardise it
2023-02-02T00:33:28 < qyx> kaki: did you check vector's pinouts?
2023-02-02T00:33:34 < josuah> like NXP with CAN SIC, or PixHawk choosing JST GH for it...
2023-02-02T00:33:59 < kaki> qyx: vector?
2023-02-02T00:34:17 < qyx> vector can analysers, they use db9
2023-02-02T00:34:29 < qyx> actually the only device with CAN on a DB9 connector I have ever seen
2023-02-02T00:35:25 < qyx> josuah: CAN is a iso/osi layer 1/2 protocol
2023-02-02T00:35:40 < josuah> a bit like SPI, or I2C, or UART, which might have homogene connectors in some kind of bubble
2023-02-02T00:36:17 < qyx> CAN should not specify any connector, it is not it's work
2023-02-02T00:36:32 < josuah> qyx: but there more or less is one for Ethernet
2023-02-02T00:36:37 < qyx> no
2023-02-02T00:36:42 < josuah> ah good point
2023-02-02T00:36:43 < josuah>  there is not
2023-02-02T00:37:01 < qyx> there is ethernet over fiber optics, over single pair, over whatever
2023-02-02T00:37:02 < josuah> it is all commonplace for twisted pair + 8P8C
2023-02-02T00:37:49 < josuah> thank you for reminding me
2023-02-02T00:38:22 < josuah> and even the fiber optics transceiver have plenty of formats and standards
2023-02-02T00:47:00 < Steffanx-> DE-9 kaki. Damn you
2023-02-02T00:48:38 < qyx> :D
2023-02-02T00:55:42 < josuah> kaki: csselectronic is another vendor of CAN diagnostic equipment, and they use DE-9 (oops thanks Steffanx- :]) connnectors for their part, but adaptors for the various standard connectors in every field.
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2023-02-02T01:34:48 < kaki> there are canbus sniffers that work through the twisted pair insulation
2023-02-02T01:34:52 < kaki> did you know that?
2023-02-02T01:35:06 < jbo> wut?
2023-02-02T01:35:17 < jbo> you mean without an electrical connection?
2023-02-02T01:35:22 < kaki> yes
2023-02-02T01:35:30 < kaki> it's basically a pcb
2023-02-02T01:35:39 < jbo> got a pic?
2023-02-02T01:35:40 < kaki> with plates
2023-02-02T01:35:42 < kaki> nope
2023-02-02T01:37:07 < kaki> https://www.canlab.cz/en/contactless_can_bus_reader
2023-02-02T01:37:24 < jbo> neat
2023-02-02T01:37:24 < kaki> this is not the one I saw but
2023-02-02T01:37:34 < kaki> googled and this was in images
2023-02-02T01:38:21 < kaki> https://jv-technoton.com/products/contactless-readers/cancrocodile/
2023-02-02T01:42:04 < kaki> https://squarell.com/products/cancliq/
2023-02-02T01:42:18 < kaki> thats neat
2023-02-02T01:45:01 < karlp> jbo: fwiw, virtually everything outside of legacy stuff in kicad is "atomic parts" so fully specified symbol name, with matching footprints.
2023-02-02T01:45:26 < jbo> karlp, hmm... I didn't look at the "official" (?) libs. I built my own from scratch
2023-02-02T01:45:35 < jbo> karlp, but good info, thanks!
2023-02-02T01:45:46 < fenugrec> kaki, I know of at least a few incompatible DB9 pinouts for CAN, it is not standardized
2023-02-02T01:46:07 < kaki> I can tell by one google search it's a mess
2023-02-02T01:46:12 < fenugrec> correct
2023-02-02T01:46:27 < kaki> so much so that I wont use de-9
2023-02-02T01:46:50 < fenugrec> why not
2023-02-02T01:46:56 < fenugrec> what are you integrating with, just use that
2023-02-02T01:48:36 < kaki> maybe
2023-02-02T01:50:13 < fenugrec> H/L on pins 7/2 seems pretty common. CANopen, IXXAT, probably lots of others
2023-02-02T01:53:35 < kaki> yes
2023-02-02T01:54:15 < karlp> jbo: so, let me check I understood, you're blaming kicad for an imagined problem? :)
2023-02-02T01:55:20 < kaki> like dongs
2023-02-02T01:55:47 < kaki> not even using kicad but still complaining
2023-02-02T01:57:21 < jbo> karlp, I'm not blaming at all (or at least that was not my intention). I try to understand how to use it properly :)
2023-02-02T01:59:38 < kaki> fenugrec: CiA Draft Standard 102 Version 2.0
2023-02-02T02:08:22 < fenugrec> yes, that's what I've been using - I've done a bit of work with canopen devices so the choice was easy
2023-02-02T02:08:51 < fenugrec> Actually I was using CiA draft 303-1 which is probably ~ same
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2023-02-02T02:10:16 < fenugrec> Hmm I could use Cat5 cable for CAN, it's nearly the right impedance
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2023-02-02T11:28:56 < karlp> if it won't run on cat5, it's not worth running....
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2023-02-02T11:42:20 < qyx> I am sometimes using LiYY 2x0.25 for short runs
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2023-02-02T13:14:55 < karlp> fucking, unlabelled usb micro connectors, "these must be the standard zysnips part that i use everwyhere"
2023-02-02T13:15:00 < karlp> doesn't actualyl fit on this board.
2023-02-02T13:15:09 < karlp> no fucking clue where the parts that were used are.
2023-02-02T13:15:25 < karlp> pcb is for the 8194-0001 part.
2023-02-02T13:15:29  * karlp sighs
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2023-02-02T14:26:48 < karlp> so, what do you think is heavier, x5r caps or x7r caps :)
2023-02-02T14:37:25 < jbo> qyx, charging the first LiFePo4 cell now
2023-02-02T14:37:43 < jbo> I feel like I'll burn down the office
2023-02-02T14:45:33 < jbo> manufacturer says that charge current can be up 30A. I'm currently pumping 500mA cuz I'm such a pussy.
2023-02-02T14:46:58 < BrainDamage> if you don't have a dedicated charging pouch, a ceramic bowl will work fine
2023-02-02T14:47:34 < jbo> indeed. 
2023-02-02T14:47:41 < jbo> but then also, lifepo4 is supposed not to start a fire anyway
2023-02-02T14:52:02 < qyx> first charge at C/10 max
2023-02-02T14:52:21 < qyx> surely don't charge those 15 Ah cells with 30 A initially
2023-02-02T14:52:26 < jbo> hmm... vendor/manufacturar stated initial charge to be C/2
2023-02-02T14:52:43 < jbo> I bumped it to 1A now (so C/15)
2023-02-02T14:52:46 < qyx> quite high
2023-02-02T14:53:55 < qyx> hm, I am doing a offset vs temp measurement
2023-02-02T14:54:05 < qyx> I have a log with offset values interleaved with temperature values
2023-02-02T14:54:14 < qyx> how to octave that :S
2023-02-02T14:54:18 < qyx> temp at x, offset at y
2023-02-02T14:54:36 < qyx> let's try stackoverflow university
2023-02-02T14:54:39 < jbo> you mean you have two vectors?
2023-02-02T14:54:43 < jbo> then you can just do plot(x, y)
2023-02-02T14:54:54 < qyx> but they are not the same length
2023-02-02T14:55:32 < qyx> it is more like time->offset, time->temp
2023-02-02T14:58:03 < BrainDamage> so you have time since last measurement, and then temperature at that point?
2023-02-02T14:59:41 < qyx> I simply cat >> output from the ADC and cat >> from the temp sensor
2023-02-02T14:59:46 < qyx> so they interleave freely
2023-02-02T15:00:01 < qyx> I may just take the last ADC value when a temp measurement comes
2023-02-02T15:00:05 < jbo> so how do you expect them to map to each other?
2023-02-02T15:00:29 < qyx> somehow.. by magic
2023-02-02T15:00:47 < qyx> hm, yeah
2023-02-02T15:00:50 < jbo> but you wouldn't know which ADC value to pick when a "new temperature value comes" ?
2023-02-02T15:01:13 < qyx> they are append-catted to the same file
2023-02-02T15:01:23 < BrainDamage> you could resample the shorter vector to the longer one
2023-02-02T15:02:11 < qyx> that's something I was hoping to do
2023-02-02T15:02:23 < qyx> do some regression/interpolation of temp data
2023-02-02T15:02:37 < jbo> so are the measurement intervals of each vector constant?
2023-02-02T15:02:47 < BrainDamage> assuming that the function is sufficiently smooth
2023-02-02T15:02:51 < BrainDamage> that has the underlying assumption that both readings are taken with regular intervals
2023-02-02T15:03:05 < BrainDamage> even if not necessarily the same
2023-02-02T15:06:02 < qyx> still measuring, 5 °C now
2023-02-02T15:06:20 < qyx> without any climatic chamber :P
2023-02-02T15:06:32  * qyx hides
2023-02-02T15:31:22 < fenugrec> it's an anticlimactic chamber until something happens
2023-02-02T15:31:30 < jbo> lol
2023-02-02T15:32:03 < jbo> hmm... I'm trying to find mechanical specs of intel's LGA 115x socket/cooler. I got a bunch of these coolers and I'd like to absue them for cooling some TO-220 parts. I could find specs from intel regarding the hole pattern etc. but nothing in terms of how much heigh is "left" between the top of the PCB and the bottom of the heatsink surface. any ideas?
2023-02-02T15:34:15 < BrainDamage> grab a caliper?
2023-02-02T15:35:37 < fenugrec> don't those usually have springs to accept some amount of imprecision on height
2023-02-02T15:35:54 < jbo> but surely there must be some official specs somewhere
2023-02-02T15:36:00 < fenugrec> qyx how much are you paying for that fancy LAPP cable that I probably couldn't buy here anyway but still curious
2023-02-02T15:36:23 < jbo> https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/guides/4th-gen-core-lga1150-socket-guide.pdf
2023-02-02T15:36:36 < jbo> page 30
2023-02-02T15:36:49  * karlp tries to imagine where attaching processor coolers to to220's is somehow a fun and useful use of time.
2023-02-02T15:37:19 < karlp> aren't d2pak and friends and to252 _way_ better at heat disspation anyway?
2023-02-02T15:37:30 < karlp> put the to220s beside the to3s on the shelf plz
2023-02-02T15:37:52 < jbo> this is somewhat of a "use what you have" type situation
2023-02-02T15:38:04 < fenugrec> d2pack I don't think so, you're just pumping heat into your PCB. At least to220 you can get it off of there. TO247 way better though and not much larger
2023-02-02T15:38:36 < karlp> fenugrec: sure, it goes into the board, but the board is "free" :)
2023-02-02T15:38:49 < jbo> karlp, we talk ~20W here
2023-02-02T15:39:24 < karlp> yes... but perhaps, if you were using parts made this decade, you won't be trying to dssipate 20W...
2023-02-02T15:40:41 < jbo> not if the goal IS to burn 20W
2023-02-02T15:40:53 < jbo> gotta improve my improvised dummy load
2023-02-02T15:41:25 < BrainDamage> is that a programmable load?
2023-02-02T15:41:56 < jbo> if turning a 10-turn potentiometer qualifies as programmable then yes
2023-02-02T15:42:00 < BrainDamage> is this going to be a product or just for your own usage?
2023-02-02T15:42:09 < jbo> just DIY
2023-02-02T15:42:47 < jbo> I made this ugly bastard once during a sunday night cuz I really needed it: https://blog.insane.engineer/post/dummy_load/
2023-02-02T15:42:50 < BrainDamage> for the latter case, a 20L plastic bucket and an aquarium pump will give you better performance than most "gamer" cpu coolers
2023-02-02T15:42:56 < jbo> and since then I keep using it way too often so I wanna make it a bit nicer.
2023-02-02T15:43:54 < jbo> I was considering that, yeah. but figured that I can just use a bunch of those left-over intel stock coolers
2023-02-02T15:44:00 < jbo> it's gonna be 20W max anyway
2023-02-02T15:44:03 < BrainDamage> as in, < 0.05°C/W
2023-02-02T15:54:54 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/9zduF/Screenshot_2023-02-02_14-54-34.png
2023-02-02T15:54:55 < qyx> \oP
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2023-02-02T15:57:09 < jbo> nice!
2023-02-02T16:55:25 < karlp> heh, would you like a 1% or a 5% zero ohm resistor...
2023-02-02T16:59:01 < qyx> I was told the tolerance still applies
2023-02-02T16:59:13 < qyx> but it simply does not compute
2023-02-02T17:04:53 < jadew> BrainDamage, hope you're well. I'm at peace with covid. Already had it last year.
2023-02-02T17:05:38 < jadew> which variant is circulating these days? is it that Kraken thing?
2023-02-02T17:08:00 < BrainDamage> no idea about variant, I hardly keep up with the news about that
2023-02-02T17:08:19 < jadew> how are you feeling?
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2023-02-02T17:09:25 < BrainDamage> I'm only generally interested about the risk level than the details
2023-02-02T17:10:04 < BrainDamage> I'm in remission, it lasted about 3 days
2023-02-02T17:10:29 < jadew> ah, that's good, hope it wasn't too painful
2023-02-02T17:10:49 < jadew> watch out for neurological symptoms after it's gone
2023-02-02T17:10:57 < BrainDamage> I don't have much reference since the last flu I had was more than 20 years ago
2023-02-02T17:11:13 < jadew> (taste, feelings in extremities, stuff like that)
2023-02-02T17:12:02 < BrainDamage> but it was more or less the same, except the skeletal pain, that was pretty annoying
2023-02-02T17:12:53 < BrainDamage> so far, no changes, I've actually paid a lot of attention to smell and taste out of personal curiosity
2023-02-02T17:13:19 < jadew> for me the taste was gone in the 6th or 7th day
2023-02-02T17:13:33 < jadew> lasted for a couple of days - very weird feeling
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2023-02-02T17:46:30 < karlp> heh, quectel prepaid, can get 5 years of accces for 5euro or 10 years for 10euro...
2023-02-02T17:46:34 < karlp> not... bad up front.
2023-02-02T17:46:42 < karlp> but you only get 250/500 MB of data...
2023-02-02T17:51:04 < qyx> that's the same as 1nce
2023-02-02T17:51:21 < qyx> don't they have contract for that?
2023-02-02T17:52:15 < specing> karlp: 250/500 monthly, yearly or in 5/10 years?
2023-02-02T17:52:35 < qyx> total probably
2023-02-02T18:01:39 < karlp> they're not doing monthyl for 5 years for a 5euro one off, no chance.
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2023-02-02T18:15:55 < mawk> methyl
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2023-02-02T20:31:43 < machinehum> Good morning stm32
2023-02-02T20:32:47 < Steffanx-> Is it?
2023-02-02T20:33:42 < machinehum> Some places
2023-02-02T20:34:16 < fenugrec> irc is always in the UGT timezone
2023-02-02T20:40:22 < mawk> no it's in the Europe/Paris timezone
2023-02-02T20:40:24 < mawk> and nothing else
2023-02-02T20:47:13 < Steffanx-> But is it a good morning?
2023-02-02T20:51:51 -!- Linux_Kerio [~Linux_Ker@chello085216193138.chello.sk] has joined ##stm32
2023-02-02T20:57:00 < benishor> only if you want it to
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2023-02-02T21:05:32 < machinehum> Only if I could explain some of the cancer shit I'm using at work
2023-02-02T21:11:06 < Steffanx-> Something i also cannot recommended is eye surgery.
2023-02-02T21:23:44 -!- elektirnis [~circuit@m90-131-37-215.cust.tele2.lt] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
2023-02-02T21:29:26 < PaulFertser> Steffanx-: my wife had smile(tm) surgery, very pleased with the results.
2023-02-02T21:29:38 < fenugrec> you prefer keeping your cataracts steffan ?
2023-02-02T21:31:35 -!- drzacek [~drzacek@185.128.217.170] has joined ##stm32
2023-02-02T21:32:28 < Steffanx-> Hah it wasn't that, fenugrec. 
2023-02-02T21:32:29 < PaulFertser> Yes, my 90+ years old granny texts me from her android tablet thanks to an artificial lens, yes. Highly recommended instead of cataract.
2023-02-02T21:33:29 -!- Thorn [~Thorn@user/thorn] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
2023-02-02T21:34:30 < Steffanx-> They cut out some tissue and moved around some.
2023-02-02T21:34:59 < benishor> my wife is an ophtalmologyst
2023-02-02T21:35:06 < benishor> so I've seen my share
2023-02-02T21:35:22 < benishor> ophthalmologist even
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2023-02-02T23:16:01 < karlp> UGT?
2023-02-02T23:16:06 < karlp> universal good time?
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2023-02-02T23:22:16 < fenugrec> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UGT
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2023-02-02T23:41:03 < karlp> aight.
2023-02-02T23:41:24 < karlp> man. active fucking cunts on locm3, try hard, they make changes, skimmed looks like they did what ws asked.
2023-02-02T23:41:36 < karlp> inspection, they've gone backwards in some forwards in others. wtf.
2023-02-02T23:41:44 < karlp> how can they possibly think this is correct.
2023-02-02T23:44:36 < karlp> what a fucking waste of time.
2023-02-02T23:44:49 < karlp> there's fixes in the mess, and I'm in in it now, but goddamn.
2023-02-02T23:46:00 < upgrdman> is there a word for "something that can be imported or exported" ?
2023-02-02T23:46:29 < karlp> thing, object, product, commodity, package, I mean, what the fuck.
2023-02-02T23:46:34 < karlp> anything can be imported or exported?
2023-02-02T23:47:01 < upgrdman> im trying to find a more compact variable name for my code :)
2023-02-02T23:47:22 < upgrdman> i guess in my case i could just call it "state"
2023-02-02T23:47:43 < upgrdman> or savableState or some shit
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--- Day changed pe helmi 03 2023
2023-02-03T00:07:33 < fenugrec> GlobalVariable1
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2023-02-03T00:21:13 < karlp> i
2023-02-03T00:21:23 < karlp> foo's evergreen, though I prefer wop personally.
2023-02-03T00:21:39 < karlp> if you work at yandex, I've heard "nigger" is a good choice.
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2023-02-03T12:51:16 < Steffanx-> What is "smile(tm) surgery" PaulFertser ?
2023-02-03T12:58:05 < PaulFertser> Steffanx-: "A femtosecond laser is used to cut a small lens-shaped disc in the cornea. This disc is extracted through a small incision only 2 to 3 millimeters wide. This incision is also created by the femtosecond laser. This procedure reshapes the cornea to exactly reverse the refractive error of the eye." https://www.webmd.com/eye-health/what-is-smile-eye-surgery
2023-02-03T13:00:34 < Steffanx-> Aha
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2023-02-03T13:04:51 < mawk> there is a bodge wire in my fluke 189
2023-02-03T13:04:56 < mawk> how can I know what it does
2023-02-03T13:05:07 < mawk> also the buttons don't work anymore, is it maybe related
2023-02-03T13:05:15 < mawk> I guess I should desolder it and see what happens
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2023-02-03T13:09:02 < mawk> it's currently being used with the UART cable to continuously measure some current 
2023-02-03T13:09:09 < mawk> maybe they added the wire to disable the buttons
2023-02-03T13:09:20 < mawk> but the schematic isn't public so how did they know what to do
2023-02-03T13:09:50 < Steffanx-> Ask Google for photos of the inside of a fluke 189
2023-02-03T13:15:21 < karlp> ok, trying otu jlc prepaid parts for the first time, I think I get how this works now.
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2023-02-03T13:25:22 < mawk> yeah it's what I did Steffanx- 
2023-02-03T13:25:29 < mawk> and the wire isn't in the photos
2023-02-03T13:25:55 < mawk> so someone added it after
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2023-02-03T13:53:29 < BrainDamage> both of my parents had cataract surgery, when the light angle is just right, you can see a perfec circle where the iris is, it's kinda wild, looks like ghost in the shell
2023-02-03T13:59:48 < mawk> nice
2023-02-03T14:08:18 < jadew> I recently read that depending on the lenses you get, you might be able to see more color than before
2023-02-03T14:08:35 < jadew> particularly in the UV range, because the new lens are not filtering as well
2023-02-03T14:11:14 < jadew> would suck to see less
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2023-02-03T20:23:33 < sync> karlp: I did that a while ago, it's a bit sketchy, but works fine
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2023-02-03T21:06:58 < fenugrec> how's the cold englishman 
2023-02-03T21:07:31 < englishman> im in the south lol
2023-02-03T21:07:32 < fenugrec> -28C 
2023-02-03T21:07:43 < fenugrec> it warmed up, was -29 this morning
2023-02-03T21:07:53 < fenugrec> good timing heh
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2023-02-03T21:15:45 < qyx> a c++ question of zyp grade: I want to have a schedule of events, preferably generated by a generic system timer of some sort
2023-02-03T21:16:57 < qyx> and I want to make an action at exact time, eg. 0 is now, set mux at 2 ms, capture ADC at 5 ms, invert polarity at 6 ms, capture again at 9 ms, return from the method
2023-02-03T21:17:30 < qyx> I want to have all that parts in a single scope as I want to do some computation in between
2023-02-03T21:18:51 < qyx> currently I would implement the generic system timer as an ordered queue of semaphores, always selecting the soonest one, setting capture interrupt an signalling the semaphore when it occurs
2023-02-03T21:19:28 < qyx> and then simply wait on that semaphore between events, scheduling a new one before the next
2023-02-03T21:19:58 < qyx> the question is, what keyword/feature should I google for
2023-02-03T21:19:59 < fenugrec> soudns like an rtos question
2023-02-03T21:20:19 < qyx> yeah the rtos part I know
2023-02-03T21:20:43 < qyx> I am more interested in 21st century c++ implementation
2023-02-03T21:21:07 < qyx> some async, futures, coroutines and similar buzzwords?
2023-02-03T21:21:14 < qyx> I don't know them
2023-02-03T21:21:53 < fenugrec> the more I involuntarily use c++ the less I want to use it
2023-02-03T21:23:02 < qyx> I am trying to give it like 10nd chance
2023-02-03T21:23:30 < fenugrec> all I've gotten is slow-as-shit compilation, cryptic errors, and way too many ways to footgun
2023-02-03T21:24:44 < sauce> obvious use case for longjmp in a systick handler
2023-02-03T21:24:46 < sauce> what could go wrong
2023-02-03T21:24:59 < qyx> lol
2023-02-03T21:25:03 < fenugrec> heh
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2023-02-03T22:19:03 < zyp> qyx, sounds like you just want to do some form of sleep_until()
2023-02-03T22:20:00 < zyp> ah, that's what I've called it too: https://cgit.jvnv.net/laks/tree/async/time_scheduler.h?h=dev_v2
2023-02-03T22:24:15 < zyp> qyx, so, using laks you'd do something like this: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/dBNHh
2023-02-03T22:26:47 < qyx> what is co_await?
2023-02-03T22:26:57 < qyx> I gues it is a keyword in c++?
2023-02-03T22:27:13 < qyx> hm
2023-02-03T22:27:16 < zyp> yeah, it's the keyword to suspend a coroutine awaiting something
2023-02-03T22:30:16 < zyp> coroutines are cooperative multitasking, so it requires you to be somewhat explicit about when you'll give something else a chance to run
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2023-02-03T22:31:46 < zyp> well, it's partly that, and partly the fact that you're dealing with futures
2023-02-03T22:32:53 < kaki> what youbuying?
2023-02-03T22:32:56 < karlp> sync: yeha, I don't think they've done a great job of really documenting the options they've added now, but it seems like it can really work out well for people ordering a lot through them.
2023-02-03T22:32:57 < kaki> oil?
2023-02-03T22:33:04 < kaki> ah
2023-02-03T22:33:09 < karlp> now I just need them to do 2.5mm or thicker pcbs and I'd be happy.
2023-02-03T22:33:10 < kaki> c++ futures
2023-02-03T22:33:34 < karlp> well, maybe.  nextpcbstill lets me drop ship special parts for them to assemble, it's more hands on than jlc's automation or die approach
2023-02-03T22:34:09 < zyp> qyx, a future is a placeholder for a return value that'll be available in the future, in this case a void return that'll be available when the time you specified has elapsed
2023-02-03T22:35:07 < zyp> and co_await is a statement that suspends your coroutine until this value is available (and in the case of non-void, gives it to you)
2023-02-03T22:35:23 < zyp> e.g. int sample = co_await adc.capture();
2023-02-03T22:35:39 < qyx> so how does that work, do I need an special scheduler support for that?
2023-02-03T22:35:59 < qyx> hm
2023-02-03T22:36:01 < zyp> you need a coroutine scheduler
2023-02-03T22:36:15 < zyp> python calls it ioloop or something
2023-02-03T22:36:43 < qyx> it's starting to sound complex
2023-02-03T22:37:32 < zyp> not really, the one in laks is really just a queue of stuff that's ready to run: https://cgit.jvnv.net/laks/tree/async/scheduler.h?h=dev_v2
2023-02-03T22:37:37 < josuah> <zyp> you need a coroutine scheduler
2023-02-03T22:37:38 < josuah> do you use some C library for that or always an RTOS-provided task thing?
2023-02-03T22:37:48 < zyp> I wrote my own
2023-02-03T22:37:53 < josuah> looks like you just answered
2023-02-03T22:37:55 < josuah> yes ok
2023-02-03T22:38:52 < zyp> I'm not aware of any other C++ coroutine implementations targetting embedded use (although I'm sure there's a whole bunch)
2023-02-03T22:39:02 < qyx> I would like to drop the corountine bs and just map those things to RTOS tasks
2023-02-03T22:39:10 < zyp> for regular C++ software, I've got the impression that cppcoro is the common implementation
2023-02-03T22:39:24 < zyp> so just do that?
2023-02-03T22:39:41 < veverak> hu?
2023-02-03T22:39:47 < zyp> I'd expect any RTOS scheduler to have something equivalent to a sleep_until()
2023-02-03T22:40:12 < veverak> qyx: it seems like you are trying to find a C++ buzzwords to throw at a problem
2023-02-03T22:40:18 < veverak> that sounds like a bad idea
2023-02-03T22:40:23 < josuah> https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/coroutine/coroutine_handle
2023-02-03T22:40:23 < qyx> probably
2023-02-03T22:40:28 < veverak> quite a bad idea
2023-02-03T22:40:50 < veverak> (and you are looking at a guy that is writing article about C++20 coroutines and doing all kinds of batshit crazy with C++)
2023-02-03T22:41:18 < zyp> qyx, in freertos you've got vTaskDelay() and vTaskDelayUntil()
2023-02-03T22:41:25 < zyp> just use the latter
2023-02-03T22:41:42 < zyp> get t0 at start of functions and sleep until the required offsets from that
2023-02-03T22:42:09 < josuah> I just noticed that scheduling does not mean context switching
2023-02-03T22:42:29 < fenugrec> buzzwords.cpp
2023-02-03T22:42:38 < qyx> k so I will do it the usual way, no cpp then, sad qyx
2023-02-03T22:42:46 < fenugrec> what would specing do
2023-02-03T22:42:58 < qyx> vTaskDelay & co is unusable for that, but yeah
2023-02-03T22:43:04 < veverak> the way is the same, C++ should just make it simpler to write
2023-02-03T22:43:06 < veverak> :)
2023-02-03T22:43:24 < qyx> my impression so far is that c++ makes everything harder to write
2023-02-03T22:43:25 < josuah> might be hard to implement yield() without some amount of context switching though
2023-02-03T22:43:38 < veverak> qyx: I disagree with that in general
2023-02-03T22:43:56 < josuah> qyx: for someone who like to avoid C++, most likely
2023-02-03T22:44:03 < zyp> writing something in an unfamiliar language makes everything harder to write
2023-02-03T22:44:12 < zyp> and unfamiliar is subjective
2023-02-03T22:44:27 < veverak> writing something with the intent to throw buzzwords at it is the bad step
2023-02-03T22:44:35 < veverak> writing soemthing properly in that language, that's the thing
2023-02-03T22:44:59 < qyx> nah
2023-02-03T22:45:11 < veverak> anyway, this article of mine https://github.com/koniarik/interrupt/blob/master/_posts/2024-04-20-coroutines.md has some info about why coroutines might not be worth it for now
2023-02-03T22:45:14 < specing> you could use Ada, it has built-in threading
2023-02-03T22:45:15 < veverak> (it's WIP)
2023-02-03T22:45:18 < specing> since '95 or so
2023-02-03T22:45:30 < veverak> but I do love using them for i2c tho :)
2023-02-03T22:46:18 < zyp> I'm designing laks to let me get shit done quickly with low amounts of code, but that doesn't really work if you're not familiar with it
2023-02-03T22:46:50 < josuah> > Coroutines are not something new to the programming world
2023-02-03T22:46:52 < josuah> I can list at least one software using them from 1989
2023-02-03T22:47:23 < veverak> "it's not a new thing" is all that I wanted to say :)
2023-02-03T22:47:42 < josuah> oh, "new" as in "new for them to be widespread"
2023-02-03T22:47:54 < zyp> coroutines aren't new, C++20 coroutines are a new implementation of an old concept
2023-02-03T22:48:16 < veverak> wat
2023-02-03T22:48:20 < veverak> I never said that they are new /o\
2023-02-03T22:48:25 < fenugrec> specing, more seriously, I'd be curious to look at actual Ada code that compiles & runs on a modest stm32. My understanding is that it's impractical on mcus
2023-02-03T22:48:38 < josuah> veverak: oops sorry I skipped the word "not" my bad!
2023-02-03T22:48:44 < josuah> important word
2023-02-03T22:48:57 < veverak> evidently :)
2023-02-03T22:50:35 < zyp> veverak, > …, but in simple cases, we can assume something like this: …
2023-02-03T22:51:02 < veverak> hu?
2023-02-03T22:51:06 < zyp> veverak, I'd assume coroutines are lazy by default
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2023-02-03T22:51:15 < veverak> in what way?
2023-02-03T22:51:28 < zyp> 2 wouldn't be printed until you do the first step()
2023-02-03T22:51:35 < veverak> that's entirely up to the coroutine_type
2023-02-03T22:51:44 < veverak> the thing gives you ability to specify that behavior
2023-02-03T22:52:08 < zyp> I know C++ lets you choose, but I'd assume lazy by default since that's what every other language seems to do
2023-02-03T22:52:15 < veverak> it might be
2023-02-03T22:52:18 < veverak> I default to not lazy 
2023-02-03T22:53:01 < veverak> I think that the current default is that it forces you to make an explicit choice
2023-02-03T22:53:07 < zyp> I haven't implemented eager ones yet, but there's a bunch of things they'd be useful for
2023-02-03T22:53:26 < zyp> well, you or the author of whatever library you use :)
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2023-02-03T22:53:48 < veverak> anyway, "make a choice" as a defualt seems nice to me :)
2023-02-03T22:54:30 < specing> fenugrec: impractical why?
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2023-02-03T22:58:48 < specing> fenugrec: https://framagit.org/specing/charger_monitor/-/tree/master/code
2023-02-03T23:02:11 < zyp> veverak, I think I agree with most of the other stuff you write
2023-02-03T23:02:54 < veverak> cool
2023-02-03T23:03:04 < veverak> even thou the article is kinda critical/negative
2023-02-03T23:03:23 < veverak> I enjoyed working with coroutines and had a good experience with writing i2c device drivers
2023-02-03T23:03:35 < zyp> well, I've taken the «Or just live with the dynamic memory.» route
2023-02-03T23:03:40 < veverak> so I just hope we will manage to handle the issues that I've described :)
2023-02-03T23:03:58 < veverak> yeah, I am not into that much, but maybe that will be the way
2023-02-03T23:04:10 < zyp> laks never used a heap before I started using coroutines, coroutines made it worth it IMO
2023-02-03T23:04:27 < veverak> (I am not aware of what laks is)
2023-02-03T23:04:44 < veverak> anyway, I still can't get over the fact that it's not possible to have static buffer for the coro at the moment
2023-02-03T23:04:46 < veverak>  /o\
2023-02-03T23:04:52 < zyp> coroutine state is fully RAII, so there's little possibility of leaks vs other heap usages
2023-02-03T23:05:21 < zyp> I'm pretty sure I saw an implementation doing static analysis and compile time allocation of buffers
2023-02-03T23:05:35 < zyp> some research article, I think
2023-02-03T23:05:42 < veverak> anyway
2023-02-03T23:05:48 < veverak> I would be OK with the common compromise
2023-02-03T23:05:54 < veverak> allocate during init, never during runtime
2023-02-03T23:06:02 < zyp> that kinda defeats the point
2023-02-03T23:06:04 < veverak> (or, I am more willing ot do that)
2023-02-03T23:06:09 < veverak> not really, I have long living coroutines
2023-02-03T23:06:11 < veverak> :)
2023-02-03T23:06:54 < zyp> I guess when compilers gets better at halo, that'd be feasible
2023-02-03T23:07:10 < zyp> anyway
2023-02-03T23:07:18 < veverak> I would love explicit/forcing halo ..
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2023-02-03T23:08:16 < zyp> the way I see it, one issue with static allocation of coroutine frames is knowing how many instances you'd need for any single coroutine
2023-02-03T23:08:39 < veverak> eeeh, we do not agree in what static allocation is
2023-02-03T23:08:54 < veverak> same as using "static_vector" instead of "vector"
2023-02-03T23:09:12 < veverak> the "memory" is not allocated, but part of the object
2023-02-03T23:09:33 < veverak> "template<std::size_t N> class coroutine_storage;" << something like that
2023-02-03T23:09:44 < zyp> of what object?
2023-02-03T23:10:03 < veverak> `coroutine_storage`
2023-02-03T23:10:17 < zyp> and where's coroutine_storage allocated?
2023-02-03T23:10:27 < veverak> whenever you want?
2023-02-03T23:10:29 < veverak> that's the point
2023-02-03T23:10:43 < zyp> I don't get it
2023-02-03T23:11:43 < veverak> aaaaaah I am too tired, sorry
2023-02-03T23:11:48 < veverak> (brain can't figure out simple way to explain)
2023-02-03T23:11:49 < zyp> wait, hang on
2023-02-03T23:15:15 < zyp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/manks <- something like this?
2023-02-03T23:15:45 < veverak> yeah
2023-02-03T23:16:35 < zyp> I guess if you make the coroutine itself a template, you could pass shit into the coroutine type through template arguments and then have new/delete use it
2023-02-03T23:16:46 < veverak> yup
2023-02-03T23:16:50 < zyp> but I suspect it wouldn't be pretty :)
2023-02-03T23:16:55 < veverak> the current trick is to pass allocator to it
2023-02-03T23:17:25 < zyp> and it doesn't really solve the recursive aspect of it
2023-02-03T23:17:53 < veverak> of coro?
2023-02-03T23:17:56 < veverak> it kinda does?
2023-02-03T23:18:05 < veverak> or, what do you mean?
2023-02-03T23:18:20 < veverak> btw: https://github.com/koniarik/emlabcpp/blob/main/include/emlabcpp/experimental/coro/memory_promise.h << I use this impl to give coroutines allocator support
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2023-02-03T23:19:20 < zyp> apart from toplevel tasks like this, pretty much anything invoking a coroutine would be a coroutine itself, and thereby have a coroutine frame, not a stack frame
2023-02-03T23:19:57 < zyp> so you'd stick shit in the parent's frame, which would stick shit in its parent's frame and so on
2023-02-03T23:19:57 < veverak> hu?
2023-02-03T23:20:03 < veverak> nope?
2023-02-03T23:20:10 < veverak> why would you do such a thing :D
2023-02-03T23:20:26 < zyp> as long as you're putting the coroutine_storage inside the function, that's what would happen
2023-02-03T23:20:31 < veverak> plenty of "fun -> fun -> coro -> fun -> fun -> coro -> fun -> fun" can happen
2023-02-03T23:20:38 < zyp> and if you're not, they're not reentrant
2023-02-03T23:20:48 < veverak> and multiple ways to solve coroutine_storage or whatever
2023-02-03T23:21:07 < zyp> fair enough, I'm thinking of async functions, not generators and stuff
2023-02-03T23:21:32 < veverak> this actually feels like the most important stop
2023-02-03T23:21:34 < veverak> *step
2023-02-03T23:21:52 < veverak> some languages/communities have a tendecy to "once you are in coro, everything is in coro!!!" which feels like a really bad idea to me
2023-02-03T23:22:03 < veverak> the fact that C++ does not forces that, or does not endorses that, is a good thing
2023-02-03T23:24:14 < zyp> I'm not sure I agree with that being a tendency
2023-02-03T23:25:22 < zyp> but I'd argue that for async code, anything you want to be able to suspend should be a coroutine
2023-02-03T23:25:36 < zyp> while, as you say, is strictly not required
2023-02-03T23:25:53 < sauce> https://journal.stuffwithstuff.com/2015/02/01/what-color-is-your-function/
2023-02-03T23:26:34 < zyp> you could have a scheduler run a coro task that goes off and runs some blocking function, and then in that blocking function it could busyloop and tell the coro scheduler to run another task meanwhile
2023-02-03T23:27:59 < veverak> eeeeeeeh, you can't
2023-02-03T23:28:11 < veverak> you can't interrupt a coroutine from nested function
2023-02-03T23:28:27 < veverak> (unless you by "blocking function" you ment coro_
2023-02-03T23:29:11 < zyp> correct, you can't suspend it, so the stuff it called remains on the stack, but then you reenter the scheduler and resume another task on top of that
2023-02-03T23:29:37 < zyp> the issue is that you'd end up stacking up multiple tasks' worth of callgraphs on the stack that'd normally not exist concurrently
2023-02-03T23:29:50 < zyp> which makes for quite a mess :)
2023-02-03T23:31:32 < zyp> which is why I'd normally say that anything you want to be able to suspend needs to be a coroutine
2023-02-03T23:47:17 < kaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw3mlykbAfk encore
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2023-02-04T15:41:35 < karlp> my python asyncio experience is that yes, once you go coro, it all ends up being coros, whether you intended that or not.
2023-02-04T15:50:21 < veverak> karlp: yeah, so far with C++ coro it seems that it is avoidable
2023-02-04T15:52:53 < zyp> I don't think python and C++ coros are different in that aspect
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2023-02-04T16:23:23 < veverak> I don't see a reason for C++ coros to fail under that red/blue article that sauce pasted
2023-02-04T16:23:30 < veverak> or same what karlp said
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2023-02-04T17:22:27 < zyp> veverak, have I told you about my idea to use coros in ISRs?
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2023-02-04T17:24:24 < veverak> eeeeh no
2023-02-04T17:27:11 < zyp> it's one of the things you can do with coros that you can't really do with traditional multithreading
2023-02-04T17:33:51 < zyp> e.g. consider something simple like this: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/n2ARn
2023-02-04T17:35:24 < zyp> line 4 would enable the TXE interrupt (i.e. set the TXEIE bit) while it's being awaited
2023-02-04T17:36:46 < oz4ga> ISR and coros sound so fundamentally wrong.
2023-02-04T17:37:07 < zyp> if you're writing multiple bytes, typically TXE starts out set so the first write happens in normal thread context, then the transfer buffer gets filled, so the coroutine gets suspended waiting for space
2023-02-04T17:37:43 < zyp> once TXE interrupt fires, the ISR can resume the coroutine directly in the ISR and let it go on to write the next byte and suspend again
2023-02-04T17:38:20 < veverak> yeah, that sounds wrong :)
2023-02-04T17:38:24 < veverak> oz4ga: yup
2023-02-04T17:38:32 < veverak> I prefer my interrupts to be simple and use simple mechanics
2023-02-04T17:39:12 < zyp> and the yield at the end ensures it's switching back to normal thread context before the return is resuming its parent
2023-02-04T17:39:53 < veverak> for example: my coros are designed in a way that if coro wants to send/receive data, it suspends itself, completely independnet mechanism gets the info about what to read/write, does that, and after it is done data is returned to the coro
2023-02-04T17:40:04 < veverak> the great thing about it is complete separation of the ISR mechanism and the coro itself
2023-02-04T17:40:40 < zyp> effectively what this does is that it lets you write interrupt driven code as if it were polling code, but without the overhead of signalling events from interrupts
2023-02-04T17:40:51 < veverak> that is, I think that coros are great to model/be used to write IO, but not to do the actuall IO :)
2023-02-04T17:41:41 < zyp> I mean, a more traditional solution would be a conventional ISR that sets a future when you're getting an event
2023-02-04T17:42:32 < veverak> in my current projects, I kinda default to: "receive one byte at a time in ISR and just insert it into input circular buffer"
2023-02-04T17:42:58 < veverak> (note the "current" part, I don't consider this a silver bullet, it just works great for my current settings)
2023-02-04T17:43:01 < zyp> yeah, same
2023-02-04T17:43:07 < zyp> but this is a dumbed down example
2023-02-04T17:43:14 < veverak> the buffer is than polled by the main control loop
2023-02-04T17:43:49 < zyp> imagine you're doing i2c where you have to actively make decisions instead of just sticking data in a queue
2023-02-04T17:44:01 < zyp> polled? not awaited?
2023-02-04T17:44:09 < veverak> nope
2023-02-04T17:44:21 < veverak> I don use RTOS usually
2023-02-04T17:44:26 < veverak> so no threads or anything
2023-02-04T17:44:32 < zyp> I'm talking about coroutines
2023-02-04T17:44:35 < zyp> https://cgit.jvnv.net/laks/tree/async/queue.h?h=dev_v2
2023-02-04T17:45:06 < veverak> ah coros, with those I usually have coroutine like ... hmmm
2023-02-04T17:45:16 < veverak> let me find some form of cranyons
2023-02-04T17:45:30 < veverak> ah!
2023-02-04T17:45:41 < veverak> drivers <-> core <-> devices
2023-02-04T17:45:48 < veverak> ^^ this is the way my stuff tends to look like
2023-02-04T17:45:57 < veverak> 'drivers' is something like "i2c_driver" for the device
2023-02-04T17:46:08 < veverak> 'core' is the core main loop of the firmware that controls the entire thing
2023-02-04T17:46:37 < zyp> yeah?
2023-02-04T17:46:41 < veverak> 'devices' are a drivers to interact with various device connected to the thing, for example: `ina218_driver`
2023-02-04T17:46:57 < veverak> coroutines are present only in 'devices', rest is written "normally"
2023-02-04T17:47:04 < zyp> aww
2023-02-04T17:47:27 < veverak> and 'core' pools the drivers with "have you got any message?" if it finds one, core will move that message into devices, which will cause resume on internal coroutine
2023-02-04T17:47:57 < veverak> that is, drivers/core are completely oblivious to the part that 'devices' use coroutines internally
2023-02-04T17:50:37 < zyp> here's some real code from a project I did last year: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/8VibX
2023-02-04T17:51:03 < zyp> lines 5-7 and 12-14 would benefit from being able to await an irq, right now they're just polling
2023-02-04T17:51:32 < zyp> my yield() is a pretty dumb awaitable that just puts the coroutine right back in the ready queue
2023-02-04T17:52:08 < zyp> and yes, I could just use async_flag for that, like the queue
2023-02-04T17:53:22 < zyp> but instead of using an ISR to signal an event, making a coroutine get scheduled, propagate through the ready queue and then resumed, I might as well just resume it directly in the ISR, just do whatever needs to be done, and suspend again
2023-02-04T17:54:04 < zyp> it makes for a solution with less latency, less overhead and also takes less code to write
2023-02-04T17:54:10 < zyp> in other words, a win-win
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2023-02-04T17:54:23 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/pic/orig/media%2FFoCZw8QXkAEKR8m.jpg
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2023-02-04T17:56:26 < specing> Laurence_b: hah
2023-02-04T18:02:31 < oz4ga> IT can work IF you can assure that the coro that was interrupted is still in context (or wasn't parrented as zyp sayed) when the ISR returns.
2023-02-04T18:03:29 < zyp> yeah, the dangerous part is that if it returns without yielding, it'll resume its parent in ISR context as well
2023-02-04T18:09:18 < oz4ga> zyp: that would be like a new recipe for LSD :D The ISR MUST cooperate with the scheduler otherwise the result will be chaos and mayhem 
2023-02-04T18:10:54 < zyp> I guess the easiest solution to that would be to use a special coroutine type whose promise type has a final_suspend() that schedules its parent instead of resuming it directly
2023-02-04T18:11:21 < zyp> that way it'd always do the yield() at the end implicitly
2023-02-04T18:13:00 < oz4ga> Hippie stuff, but yes
2023-02-04T18:13:49 < zyp> hmm, I wonder if you could fully specify the handle type in await_suspend() of the ISR glue so you could enforce it can only be awaited by that kind of coroutines too
2023-02-04T18:13:50 < oz4ga> which version of c++ would that require?
2023-02-04T18:13:55 < zyp> C++20
2023-02-04T18:15:00 < zyp> gcc-arm-embedded started shipping C++20 support (gcc10) years ago, so I don't have any reservations about requiring it :)
2023-02-04T18:15:43 < veverak> eeeeeh
2023-02-04T18:15:46 < veverak> partially supported
2023-02-04T18:16:03  * oz4ga aggree 100%. I'm just feeling old ;)
2023-02-04T18:16:11 < Mangy_Dog> whats stock like on ultra low profile tiny stm32s?
2023-02-04T18:16:14 < Mangy_Dog> a few gpios
2023-02-04T18:16:31 < Mangy_Dog> just as bad as the more popular ones?
2023-02-04T18:16:34 < veverak> latest arm-mnone-eabi gcc on ubuntu lts is 10. which has partiall support
2023-02-04T18:17:06 < veverak> I also require C++20, but I am also aware that my code is not compatible with gcc10, and that I do have reservations about choosing C++20 :)
2023-02-04T18:17:09 < oz4ga> Mangy_Dog: The new C0 line, which is jsut a misers version of the G0 line
2023-02-04T18:17:53 < Mangy_Dog> are the L line kinda premium ultra efficiant cores?
2023-02-04T18:18:33 < Mangy_Dog> i just need to make a super simple led chaser
2023-02-04T18:18:35 < Mangy_Dog> and frankly
2023-02-04T18:18:39 < Mangy_Dog> i dont want to have to learn pic
2023-02-04T18:18:42 < Mangy_Dog> rather stick with what i know
2023-02-04T18:19:26 < oz4ga> sound like you should look to the M0 or M0+ part of the L line
2023-02-04T18:22:12 < oz4ga> If you onlu need a GPIO or 2 and your code can fit into 32K of flash and 6 to 12k of RAM there are C0's and G0 down to 8 pins
2023-02-04T18:22:31 < Mangy_Dog> might only need 4 or 5 gpio
2023-02-04T18:22:43 < Mangy_Dog> if im directly driving leds
2023-02-04T18:23:14 < oz4ga> they come in 48 pin lfpq to
2023-02-04T18:23:24 < Mangy_Dog> too big tbh
2023-02-04T18:23:30 < Mangy_Dog> i really want something small
2023-02-04T18:24:03 < fenugrec> f030 ?
2023-02-04T18:24:05 < fenugrec> tssop20 probably
2023-02-04T18:24:23 < oz4ga> I say take a look @ the new C0 line. Thre was a webinar presenting then las tuesday
2023-02-04T18:25:18 < oz4ga> The C0s are just low cost G0s
2023-02-04T18:26:22 < oz4ga> if a F0 come in a 20 pin package, I'm pretty sure the G0 and C0 could do that too
2023-02-04T18:27:12 < fenugrec> no doubt
2023-02-04T18:27:39 < fenugrec> I just remember seeing some tssop F0 in stock 'recently'
2023-02-04T18:27:45 < Mangy_Dog> nods
2023-02-04T18:27:57 < Mangy_Dog> tssop20 could be small enough
2023-02-04T18:28:37 < fenugrec> qfn may be smaller but unknown availability and routing can be more of a pain with the gnd pad
2023-02-04T18:28:54 < Mangy_Dog> not worried about tinsy pcbs :p
2023-02-04T18:29:01 < zyp> veverak, what part isn't supported in gcc10?
2023-02-04T18:29:06 < oz4ga> at the webinar they emphasized really small packages
2023-02-04T18:29:15 < veverak> zyp: I already forgot the exact issues
2023-02-04T18:29:32 < veverak> zyp: I am using this https://github.com/FreddieChopin/bleeding-edge-toolchain for all my projects for a while
2023-02-04T18:29:44 < veverak> I just know that I was forced due to something to make gcc10->12 jump with it
2023-02-04T18:29:47 < zyp> IME the main c++20 thing that gcc10 doesn't do is modules, which came in gcc11
2023-02-04T18:30:22 < Mangy_Dog> UFQFPN20 3x3mm PERFECT
2023-02-04T18:30:26 < zyp> and while gcc11 is also more or less available enough now, the rest of the infrastructure still lacks
2023-02-04T18:30:48 < Mangy_Dog> ill have to use CUBE ide though but its a small price to pay
2023-02-04T18:30:50 < veverak> nope, not using modules
2023-02-04T18:31:04 < specing> fenugrec: stm32f030 has 20-tssop afaik
2023-02-04T18:31:14 < specing> fenugrec: have you checked out my ada code? :)
2023-02-04T18:31:39 < zyp> I'd like to switch to modules, but I need a build system that does modules sanely first
2023-02-04T18:31:54 < Mangy_Dog> STM32C011FxU is UFQFPN20
2023-02-04T18:32:02 < veverak> hmm, maybe it was bit_cast?
2023-02-04T18:32:07 < zyp> ah, yeah
2023-02-04T18:32:18 < zyp> bit_cast didn't get added before gcc11
2023-02-04T18:32:36 < veverak> ah, source_location!
2023-02-04T18:32:42 < veverak> yeah, those two I think
2023-02-04T18:32:57 < fenugrec> specing, yes I'm certain F030 has tssop20.  I did skim your ada code, but unfamiliar with language so it's not obvious what benefit it brings
2023-02-04T18:33:14 < zyp> https://github.com/zyp/protonium/blob/main/protonium/include/protonium/bit_cast.h
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2023-02-04T18:35:44 < zyp> as far as I can see, source_location was also added in gcc11
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2023-02-04T18:40:28 < oz4ga> Mangy_Dog: If you can shoehorn your code into such a tiny / arduino sized (flash and ram wise) "thingy", thats prolly what motivated STM to build such processors
2023-02-04T18:44:21 < fenugrec> I used a pic10F200 one time... 256 words of flash
2023-02-04T18:45:28 < specing> hmm... not sure what my tinies pic was ... pic16f84a maybe?
2023-02-04T18:45:36 < specing> tiniest*
2023-02-04T18:58:01 -!- nerozero [~nerozero@87.253.63.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
2023-02-04T19:02:21 < Mangy_Dog> well like i say its a simple led chaser
2023-02-04T19:02:23 < Mangy_Dog> nothing else
2023-02-04T19:02:32 < Mangy_Dog> instant on blinky
2023-02-04T19:36:51 < Mangy_Dog> lol
2023-02-04T19:37:01 < Mangy_Dog> stm32C0 isnt in the cube ide yet
2023-02-04T19:53:59 < rustyaxe> no loss. cube's existence should be considered a war crime
2023-02-04T19:56:27 < Mangy_Dog> maybe so
2023-02-04T19:56:32 < Mangy_Dog> but for an obscure stm32 part
2023-02-04T19:56:36 < Mangy_Dog> just to get it running
2023-02-04T19:56:40 < Mangy_Dog> might be the only way
2023-02-04T19:57:20 < Mangy_Dog> ahh cube updated
2023-02-04T19:57:22 < Mangy_Dog> C0 is now there
2023-02-04T20:10:20 < Steffanx-> It's obviously not the only way but...yeah ;)
2023-02-04T20:10:21 < fenugrec> any WinUSB pros in the room ? I'm getting what seems like wrongly-ordered frames, using essentially this code https://github.com/HubertD/candle_dll/blob/master/src/candle.c#L509
2023-02-04T20:12:14 < fenugrec> seems pretty straightforward - one call to WinUsb_ReadPipe to queue a URB, then poll URBs
2023-02-04T20:18:15 < Mangy_Dog> would libopencm3 work with it out the box?
2023-02-04T20:22:06 < fenugrec> ufgh might actually be worse, it's dropping 1 out of 4 frames ? what the universal fuck
2023-02-04T20:23:06 < qyx> Mangy_Dog: no until someone makes a support
2023-02-04T20:23:22 < Mangy_Dog> ahh 
2023-02-04T20:23:36 < Mangy_Dog> so yeah for a small simple project... cubeide might be the only way... at least for me :p;
2023-02-04T20:23:38 < fenugrec> aaand device is rock solid under linux. nice
2023-02-04T20:24:43 < veverak> hmm, maybe somebody knows a thing here
2023-02-04T20:24:48 < veverak> any tips for preferable logging library for embedded?
2023-02-04T20:24:50 < veverak> (C++20)
2023-02-04T20:26:20 < Mangy_Dog> eclipse in white is painful to look at
2023-02-04T20:27:54 < rustyaxe> eclipse is always painful to look at it, even more painful to use :P
2023-02-04T20:31:47 < Mangy_Dog> :p
2023-02-04T20:32:41 < Mangy_Dog> darkest dfark installed with zenburn
2023-02-04T20:32:44 < Mangy_Dog> less eye strain now
2023-02-04T20:34:00 < fenugrec> isn't 'darkest' one with a shitty privacy policy that enables telemetry and crap
2023-02-04T20:35:15 < Mangy_Dog> eh
2023-02-04T20:35:17 < Mangy_Dog> ?
2023-02-04T20:35:46 < Mangy_Dog> ive been using it for years D:
2023-02-04T20:36:36 < Mangy_Dog> looking on google... nothing coming up
2023-02-04T20:36:47 < Mangy_Dog> darkest dark with devstyle
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2023-02-04T20:41:31 < fenugrec> something like "ou hereby authorize and consent to the collection, storage and use of aggregate information and data related to or derived from your use of the Software and any information or data (including personally identifiable information) that you elect to provide to Licensor in connection with your use of the Software."
2023-02-04T20:47:25 < zyp> fenugrec, you're using the winusb api directly, not through libusb?
2023-02-04T20:51:05 < Mangy_Dog> so for hal
2023-02-04T20:51:39 < fenugrec> zyp, correct, I thought it would be easier to take that already-written DLL. 
2023-02-04T20:52:00 < Mangy_Dog> while (1) {	/* USER CODE END WHILE */
2023-02-04T20:52:00 < Mangy_Dog> 		for (uint8_t i = 0; i < 8; i++) {
2023-02-04T20:52:00 < Mangy_Dog> 			if (state == i) {
2023-02-04T20:52:00 < Mangy_Dog> 				HAL_GPIO_WritePin(GPIOA, state, GPIO_PIN_SET);
2023-02-04T20:52:00 < Mangy_Dog> 			} else {
2023-02-04T20:52:00 < Mangy_Dog> 				HAL_GPIO_WritePin(GPIOA, state, GPIO_PIN_RESET);
2023-02-04T20:52:00 < Mangy_Dog> 			}
2023-02-04T20:52:01 < Mangy_Dog> 		}
2023-02-04T20:52:01 < Mangy_Dog> 		state = (state < 8 ? state + 1 : 0);
2023-02-04T20:52:02 < Mangy_Dog> 	}
2023-02-04T20:52:10 < Mangy_Dog> is that the correct way to set a pin high and low?
2023-02-04T20:52:33 < Mangy_Dog> this being a basic chaser
2023-02-04T20:52:33 < specing> fenugrec: you haven't seen the niceties like _ in constants and the ability to specify constants in whatever number system you desire?
2023-02-04T20:52:52 < Mangy_Dog> also sorry for posting the code here... felt it was small enough to not bother with pastebin :p
2023-02-04T20:53:05 < fenugrec> Mangy that paste length was borderline aggravating
2023-02-04T20:53:10 < Mangy_Dog> sorry
2023-02-04T20:53:18 < fenugrec> you're changing state outside the for() loop ?
2023-02-04T20:53:32 < Mangy_Dog> in the for loop
2023-02-04T20:53:50 < Mangy_Dog> oh wait theres a missing hal delay 
2023-02-04T20:53:52 < Mangy_Dog> but anyway
2023-02-04T20:54:03 < Mangy_Dog> is pion set and pin reset really how you set HIGH and LOW?
2023-02-04T20:54:07 < Mangy_Dog> feels wrong
2023-02-04T20:54:09 < fenugrec> o in the while loop, indent is weird here
2023-02-04T20:54:15 < fenugrec> that's what using HAL feels like
2023-02-04T20:54:33 < fenugrec> there is IIRC a "toggle" function which is probably not what you want here
2023-02-04T20:54:49 < Mangy_Dog> yeah toggle changes whats already there
2023-02-04T20:54:54 < Mangy_Dog> so no good for this
2023-02-04T20:55:00 < Mangy_Dog> i just want to set the port high or low
2023-02-04T20:56:57 < Mangy_Dog> tbh i almsot feel like bit banging it instead
2023-02-04T20:57:15 < Mangy_Dog> with brss or what ever its called
2023-02-04T21:00:00 < fenugrec> specing, you mean "2#100#" for binary consts, etc. ? that's not a big selling point P)
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2023-02-04T21:02:55 < specing> fenugrec: that's just what's immidiately obvious
2023-02-04T21:03:11 < specing> and I'm not an Ada salesman, so don't think I'll give you the rest :P
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2023-02-04T21:20:46 < BrainDamage> saleswoman then?
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2023-02-04T21:31:59 < fenugrec> aright, I'm not reordering USB frames, I'm just losing some. Not sure where yet...
2023-02-04T21:45:03 < Mangy_Dog> the c0 even for a low spec low end chip... is really excpensive :/
2023-02-04T21:45:06 < Mangy_Dog> from official suppliers
2023-02-04T22:02:45 < Mangy_Dog> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004256776087.html  what is this? :o
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2023-02-04T22:04:10 < Mangy_Dog> clone?
2023-02-04T22:06:47 < Steffanx-> Why don't you buy your shit at farnell and co? And have it next Tuesday?
2023-02-04T22:09:18 < Mangy_Dog> i was looking at farnel and mouser and digikey too :p
2023-02-04T22:09:59 < Mangy_Dog> just looking for cheap options
2023-02-04T22:10:51 < Mangy_Dog> its for the most silly little meaningless led chaser for a low powered thingy prop
2023-02-04T22:11:05 < Mangy_Dog> though i see the C0 has a running current of 3mA ish
2023-02-04T22:11:24 < Steffanx-> Your leds will probably do more than that
2023-02-04T22:11:31 < Mangy_Dog> where the f030 is normal 30mA+
2023-02-04T22:11:34 < Mangy_Dog> oh certainly
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2023-02-04T22:12:27 < Steffanx-> F030 30mA?
2023-02-04T22:12:34 < Mangy_Dog> according to the datasheet
2023-02-04T22:13:25 < Mangy_Dog> well 22 to 30
2023-02-04T22:15:08 < Steffanx-> Yeah with all peripherals on and at 48 MHz
2023-02-04T22:15:51 < Mangy_Dog> not a huge issue tbh... in any case
2023-02-04T22:16:05 < Mangy_Dog> one thing id want to make sure is i can use the internal ocolator
2023-02-04T22:16:09 < Mangy_Dog> rather than an external thing
2023-02-04T22:16:17 < Mangy_Dog> make it simple
2023-02-04T22:16:41 < Mangy_Dog> person presses button. circuit turns on... lights blink... 
2023-02-04T22:16:47 < Mangy_Dog> basic as f
2023-02-04T22:26:11 < specing> I drove this f072 in an infinie loop at 48MHz or whatever its max speed on discovery board is, and the internal temp sensor reported ~10'C higher than when I made it go to sleep instead
2023-02-04T22:34:23 < Steffanx-> Megawatts wasted
2023-02-04T22:34:40 < Steffanx-> I hope it's no longer running 
2023-02-04T22:36:02 < Steffanx-> Doesn't Ada prevent you from doing something like this specing ?
2023-02-04T22:37:08 < qyx> 20 mA? huh
2023-02-04T22:37:27 < qyx> turn on led, sleep, instant < 10 uA
2023-02-04T22:39:56 < Steffanx-> Yes 
2023-02-04T22:41:31 < specing> Steffanx-: from making an infinite loop? Nah
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2023-02-04T23:00:42 < Mangy_Dog> hmm
2023-02-04T23:00:47 < Mangy_Dog> you can set a pin then go to sleep?
2023-02-04T23:00:50 < Mangy_Dog> and the pin state stays>
2023-02-04T23:00:52 < Mangy_Dog> ?
2023-02-04T23:00:55 < fenugrec> ofc
2023-02-04T23:00:59 < Mangy_Dog> cool
2023-02-04T23:01:15 < Mangy_Dog> i guess i can rewrite delay to be a sleep and wake up function then
2023-02-04T23:04:18 < fenugrec> you'll have to read the RM to figure out which sleep levels are available and how to get out of them - some peripherals won't work at the lowest levels
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2023-02-04T23:28:43 < veverak> zyp: by a chance
2023-02-04T23:28:55 < veverak> have you seen a trick to _force_ coroutine to be allocated on stack?
2023-02-04T23:29:03 < veverak> that is, to force HALO optimization
2023-02-04T23:29:25 < zyp> nope, and last I checked I couldn't even get gcc to do it at all
2023-02-04T23:31:09 < veverak> I have coros for which I am 100% clear that they will live on stack in a function that creates them, runs them, and than kills them
2023-02-04T23:32:25 < veverak> yeah, removing promise_type::operator new can do the trick
2023-02-04T23:32:29 < veverak> but it might be ... nah
2023-02-04T23:40:55 < zyp> I don't think that'd change where it gets allocated, it'll just make the compiler shit in your bed when it's not able to put it on the stack
2023-02-04T23:48:28 < veverak> yes
2023-02-04T23:48:37 < veverak> which kinda gives you at least some playfield to deal with this
--- Day changed su helmi 05 2023
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2023-02-05T03:12:46 < specing> https://libreddit.spike.codes/img/d5tkdsq5y7ga1.png
2023-02-05T03:34:18 < aandrew> heh
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2023-02-05T13:46:29 < jbo> sup
2023-02-05T13:46:51 < Steffanx-> Tha sky. 
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2023-02-05T13:59:49 < kaki> moite
2023-02-05T14:00:01 < kaki> time for sunday pumps?
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2023-02-05T14:04:55 < Steffanx-> Always 
2023-02-05T14:05:36 < Steffanx-> No sauna for me though. That's not allowed 😱
2023-02-05T14:06:18 < kaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pds-VHNfrM new Arma graphics are insane
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2023-02-05T14:08:51 < kaki> Steffanx-: no sauna for me neither
2023-02-05T14:09:00 < kaki> the stove is broken
2023-02-05T14:09:38 < kaki> I was sauna'ing hard and then I heard the contactor click and display went dark
2023-02-05T14:10:04 < kaki> checked fuseboard and all sauna fuses ok
2023-02-05T14:11:00 < kaki> maybe parts cannon it
2023-02-05T14:11:07 < Steffanx-> Reminds me of those two women dying because the door was locked 
2023-02-05T14:11:28 < kaki> in american horror movie?
2023-02-05T14:11:37 < Steffanx-> No for real
2023-02-05T14:11:43 < kaki> where
2023-02-05T14:13:18 < Steffanx-> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/17/mother-and-daughter-die-after-being-locked-in-czech-sauna
2023-02-05T14:13:36 < Steffanx-> Ok not locked, but they couldn't open it
2023-02-05T14:14:38 < kaki> sauna doorhandles :O
2023-02-05T14:14:47 < kaki> that's not how to do it
2023-02-05T14:15:05 < kaki> roller catch is how sauna doors should operate - universally
2023-02-05T14:16:57 < kaki> I have never seen sauna with doorhandle
2023-02-05T14:17:53 -!- Posterdati [~Posterdat@user/Posterdati] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
2023-02-05T14:19:36 < kaki> wait actually I have
2023-02-05T14:20:15 < kaki> friends summer cabin sauna doesn't have dressing room
2023-02-05T14:20:42 < Steffanx-> :)
2023-02-05T14:20:59 < Steffanx-> Why you need a dressing room? 
2023-02-05T14:21:06 < kaki> you dont
2023-02-05T14:21:29 < kaki> but it means there is only one door that is lockable
2023-02-05T14:22:42 < kaki> and therefore have also doorhandles
2023-02-05T14:23:20 < kaki> if there is dressing room the inner door is light construction or glass and with roller catch
2023-02-05T14:24:24 < kaki> the door from sauna to dressing room
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2023-02-05T14:26:03 < Steffanx-> Ah :)
2023-02-05T14:26:28 < Steffanx-> So why are you not fixing it at the moment?
2023-02-05T14:29:54 < kaki> hmm
2023-02-05T14:30:11 < kaki> IRC first
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2023-02-05T15:09:45 < kaki> Steffanx-: actually parts have been ordered
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2023-02-05T16:23:23 < chris_99> Hi, i've just been looking at the maximum value you can set for vrefbuf, which appears to be 2.5V, i'm connecting that internally to vref+, there's no trick to make vref+ 3.3V internally i assume?
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2023-02-05T16:35:56 < fenugrec> chris_99, the datasheet is the final word for that; varies depending on device. F072 has vref_int = 1.2V, and allows VDD_A from 2.4 to 3.6V
2023-02-05T16:36:12 < fenugrec> so you may need an external ref
2023-02-05T16:37:40 < chris_99> fenugrec: thanks, yeah guess an external ref would be the only solution then.  (this is stm32wb55, which mentioned either 2.048 and 2.5 iirc)
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--- Day changed ma helmi 06 2023
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2023-02-06T02:36:44 < Laurence_b> people say I'm a misogynist, but I love women, I love all the women in my underground Fritzl raep dungeon
2023-02-06T02:51:28 < catphish> /mode +b Laurence_b
2023-02-06T02:56:30 < BrainDamage> _____     _    ___                  _                             _... (full message at <http://localhost:8008/_matrix/media/v3/download/alarmserver.local/DHWTPdZlmmvesSOHEShtwYDE>)
2023-02-06T02:57:44 < BrainDamage> with less mangling https://paste.rs/dZH
2023-02-06T03:03:46 < specing> Laurence_b: you missed https://libreddit.spike.codes/img/d5tkdsq5y7ga1.png
2023-02-06T03:05:25 < Laurence_b> lol
2023-02-06T03:05:38 < catphish> my induction motor control is working reasonably well now, but i absolutely can't get it to work in reverse as a generator
2023-02-06T03:06:05 < catphish> current just randomly spikes, probably because i don't understand rotor magnetic fields
2023-02-06T03:09:38 < Laurence_b> https://i.redd.it/bkxuze7o7gga1.png
2023-02-06T03:11:25 < catphish> that's marginally funnier
2023-02-06T03:17:29 < Laurence_b> https://preview.redd.it/jw9do8pqggga1.png?width=810&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=cd99c3c38176345d0b48fc1289ce37a536f98baf
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2023-02-06T03:19:17 < BrainDamage> you want caustic soda,, not sulphuric acid
2023-02-06T03:19:38 < BrainDamage> it's easier to source, turns fat into soap, and demineralizes bones
2023-02-06T03:21:28 < Laurence_b> uh oh
2023-02-06T03:21:30 < Laurence_b> https://preview.redd.it/x4ywmygytdga1.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=b44db96b37ace14349a94b8722d8feb7df83b1e2
2023-02-06T03:21:33 < Laurence_b> busted
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2023-02-06T04:25:21 < kaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFTQehvbThQ quality musics for once?
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2023-02-06T13:32:18 < jbo> karlp, our STD leader:  https://img.pr0gramm.com/2023/02/05/6e10e0c52006018e.png
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2023-02-06T14:03:03 < Steffanx-> Jbo and his pr0grammmm
2023-02-06T14:03:47 < Steffanx-> Welcome
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2023-02-06T14:07:55 < jbo> hoi
2023-02-06T14:14:24 < jbo> Steffanx-, .nl still expensive?
2023-02-06T14:18:28 < ventYl> oh, stcube
2023-02-06T14:18:35 < ventYl> long time no see
2023-02-06T14:19:59 < Steffanx-> Yes jbo. 
2023-02-06T14:20:07 < Steffanx-> But I'll be fine
2023-02-06T14:21:04 < jbo> glad to hear that, Steffanx- 
2023-02-06T14:32:40 < qyx> ventYl: long time no see is inappropriate
2023-02-06T14:35:57 < qyx> jbo: lol'd at fokkmidottir
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2023-02-06T14:41:43 < Steffanx-> I agree with qyx. ventYl how dare you?
2023-02-06T14:48:51 < ventYl> Steffanx-: I am in a need of CMSIS + STM32 combo. locm3 does not provide that in good-enough shape
2023-02-06T14:49:07 < ventYl> I already became disgusted after some 5 minutes of looking at it
2023-02-06T14:49:18 < jpa-> what does CMSIS mean to you?
2023-02-06T14:49:33 < karlp> if cmsis had been appropriately licensed from day 1, libopencm3 would likely not exist.
2023-02-06T14:49:49 < ventYl> just some core / core peripheral defines
2023-02-06T14:50:03 < jpa-> so just use the stm32fxxx.h header
2023-02-06T14:50:04 < karlp> so what's worng with just using the st cmsis headers?
2023-02-06T14:50:08 < ventYl> like, it can be mapped out to locm3 (it in fact used to be based on locm3)
2023-02-06T14:50:12 < jpa-> it's fine and much better than the cube C files
2023-02-06T14:50:38 < ventYl> jpa-: well, i'll do that, but I have to somehow make that into buildable software, which means I have to deal with cube anyway
2023-02-06T14:50:44 < ventYl> at least for their startups
2023-02-06T14:50:49 < karlp> no?
2023-02-06T14:50:52 < jpa-> not really
2023-02-06T14:51:40 < ventYl> well, i need stm32fxxxx.h and then that stm32xxx_startup.s or how it is called, just to get my main running
2023-02-06T14:51:43 < ventYl> which is just enough for me
2023-02-06T14:52:01 < jpa-> assembly language startup files are for people who are afraid of startups
2023-02-06T14:52:17 < jpa-> but yeah, you can take it and it will work ok
2023-02-06T14:52:27 < jpa-> take the pieces you need, leave the crap
2023-02-06T14:53:55 < qyx> I think he wants to make it a pleasure to use
2023-02-06T14:54:09 < qyx> which means not clicking "download cube, agree, agree, next, next, agree"
2023-02-06T14:54:31 < qyx> are those headers available elsewhere today?
2023-02-06T14:55:16 < jpa-> https://github.com/STMicroelectronics/STM32CubeF4  etc. repos have them at least
2023-02-06T14:56:12 < qyx> hm I though those are all obsolete and for old families only
2023-02-06T14:56:18 < qyx> but it looks like even G0 is available
2023-02-06T14:56:24 < josuah> qyx: this is what Micropython did for their boards: https://github.com/micropython/stm32lib/
2023-02-06T14:57:16 < qyx> is github down?
2023-02-06T14:57:37 < qyx> no, just lagging a minute or so
2023-02-06T14:58:31 < karlp> "Minor changes are applied to the HAL source to support MicroPython's port to the STM32."
2023-02-06T14:58:34 < josuah> qyx: it might be that 1% of Github is constantly down, but never the same 1% at the same time. So it does not qualify as a downtime as "not reproducible" :]
2023-02-06T14:59:23 < qyx> heh
2023-02-06T14:59:42 < qyx> that means one or the other is a bit screwd
2023-02-06T15:00:38 < josuah> https://github.com/micropython/stm32lib/blob/vendor/STM32F0xx_HAL_Driver/Src/stm32f0xx_hal_can.c#L828-L831 err... well that does not harm anything does it?
2023-02-06T15:00:40 < ventYl> jpa-: I just want to create small examples of how to use my code with stuff such as ST Cube and NRF SDK
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2023-02-06T15:00:53 < josuah> I mean the '\' at the end
2023-02-06T15:01:10 < zyp> not harmful, just pointless
2023-02-06T15:01:11 < jpa-> ventYl: ok, for a ST cube example indeed it doesn't make sense to use anything else :)
2023-02-06T15:01:12 < ventYl> so my aim is to use as little as possible out of the SDK, ideally just CMSIS headers, the linker script and startup code
2023-02-06T15:01:32 < ventYl> examples are usually of "blinky" level of complexity
2023-02-06T15:01:46 < jpa-> uh, why? if your goal is to make a ST cube example, just use ST cube as a total noob would
2023-02-06T15:02:07 < jpa-> if you want to do bare metal example, do that instead and skip the cube
2023-02-06T15:03:02 < josuah> what about 3rd-party libraries like libopencm3?
2023-02-06T15:03:52 < josuah> in my case, it would have been what I'd have come-up with if starting from scratch
2023-02-06T15:03:55 < jpa-> libopencm3 is a dead-end, with their license and lack of maintainers
2023-02-06T15:04:57 < josuah> save for the license, even more so than going from scratch?
2023-02-06T15:05:14 < jpa-> nah, i don't see why you'd need to "go from scratch"
2023-02-06T15:05:19 < josuah> oh right
2023-02-06T15:05:45 < ventYl> jpa-: because I don't want to actually launch the Cube :D
2023-02-06T15:05:51 < jpa-> there are plenty enough register header definitions / generators out there, and with tinyusb and similar libraries handling the more complex peripherals, there isn't much point for having a wrapper around SPI or GPIO access
2023-02-06T15:05:51 < ventYl> but I might leverage existing example
2023-02-06T15:05:55 < josuah> the license does only bother if you want to change the libopencm3 itself? Not a problem for inclusing it as-is on another project?
2023-02-06T15:06:19 < karlp> it's lgpl, so it's actually fucking dumb 
2023-02-06T15:06:22 < jpa-> LGPL makes it near impossible to use for nasty proprietary development
2023-02-06T15:06:32 < karlp> but I keep getting guilted into yet more maintennance on it.
2023-02-06T15:06:34 < josuah> oh right
2023-02-06T15:07:08 < qyx> so whats your alternative karlp 
2023-02-06T15:07:37 < jpa-> libopencm3 USB driver is actually pretty nice, but nowadays i'd go just with ST register headers + tinyusb
2023-02-06T15:08:03 < ventYl> josuah: well, but some companies don't want to publish anything they created as it is their intelegual property
2023-02-06T15:08:04 < jpa-> or chibios, if i actually need a HAL
2023-02-06T15:08:09 < karlp> qyx: no idea.  I've been using laks for my own toys, but that's hardly a huge world either.
2023-02-06T15:08:19 < ventYl> like, Ford absofuckinglutely won't ever use anything GPL or LGPL
2023-02-06T15:08:20 < karlp> work is complexity studio for efr32 at the moment.
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2023-02-06T15:08:53 < karlp> chibios has fucked licensing too though, it can gtfo.
2023-02-06T15:09:17 < ventYl> what is fucked about it?
2023-02-06T15:09:24 < jpa-> chibios sells licenses, so that works - if it is useful enough, pay up
2023-02-06T15:09:26 < ventYl> i have only looked on it very briefly
2023-02-06T15:09:39 < qyx> I stopped doing chibios because of licensing
2023-02-06T15:10:03 < qyx> it was not cool enough to pay for it
2023-02-06T15:10:04 < jpa-> but i agree, it is a tough sell when in reality the time savings in development are not that huge
2023-02-06T15:10:31 < josuah> Tinyusb would need a fork for working with libopencm3, was that the motivation for having a dedicated USB library?
2023-02-06T15:11:00 < jpa-> josuah: i think you may have your clock running backwards, AFAIK tinyusb is a relatively recent development
2023-02-06T15:11:07 < qyx> ventYl: but those times are over
2023-02-06T15:11:26 < ventYl> qyx: which?
2023-02-06T15:11:31 < qyx> we are in 2023 when companies are not afraid to come up with a processor and releasing only Linux support
2023-02-06T15:11:47 < josuah> jpa-: oh right!
2023-02-06T15:11:48 < qyx> 10 years ago it would have been much laff
2023-02-06T15:12:10 < qyx> ventYl: the ford thing
2023-02-06T15:12:35 < jpa-> qyx: i still find plenty of customers that wouldn't be ok to include LGPL software in embedded stuff
2023-02-06T15:12:37 < ventYl> qyx: oh noes, that is something I've heard from developer working on Ford project some four months ago
2023-02-06T15:12:50 < ventYl> Henry Ford was an asshole and this legacy was kept well within the company
2023-02-06T15:13:23 < jpa-> so from career point of view, there is no point learning libopencm3 when i can't really use it for most work projects
2023-02-06T15:13:30 < karlp> well, he got an iron cross, someone must have thought he was doing something good.....
2023-02-06T15:14:14 < ventYl> jpa-: to me the only disadvantage seemed that chibios is using its own HAL
2023-02-06T15:14:23 < ventYl> IDK if it is mandatory or not though
2023-02-06T15:14:26 < qyx> but now I have a more immediate problem, my blinky LEd doesn't blink
2023-02-06T15:15:22 < jpa-> ventYl: chibios HAL is the best HAL out there
2023-02-06T15:15:42 < jpa-> it actually has a semi-decent chance of allowing you to port your code between different devices
2023-02-06T15:15:48 < ventYl> jpa-: I don't dispute that, but IIRC it has also some weird license, doesn't it?
2023-02-06T15:16:23 < josuah> <jpa-> [...] port your code between different devices
2023-02-06T15:16:24 < josuah> it feels like it always takes a little bit of code in a port/ directory for that
2023-02-06T15:16:40 < josuah> but maybe it makes that code much leaner with less #ifdef everywhere
2023-02-06T15:16:40 < jpa-> ventYl: chibios uses gpl / apache2 licenses, not sure what's weird about those
2023-02-06T15:17:24 < jpa-> josuah: yeah, i don't think even chibios' HAL really succeeds in that, but at least it gets half way there unlike the useless abstraction libraries like cube
2023-02-06T15:17:47 < jpa-> cube abstracts only in the sense that it makes it more difficult to compare code with reference manual
2023-02-06T15:18:23 < ventYl> jpa-: hal is apache-2.0 only. I'd assume that this can be a problem to some businesses
2023-02-06T15:19:14 < ventYl> I personally liked locm3 as in the beginning it allowed me to actually understand the matter. If I continued with Cube, I'd probably throw my nucleo into trashcan long ago and stay with AVRs.
2023-02-06T15:19:17 < jpa-> ventYl: ah, i guess it can, though there is no real reason why it should be a problem
2023-02-06T15:19:28 < ventYl> but now I preferer just bare headers
2023-02-06T15:19:54 < jpa-> for simple stuff i just use the headers, like e.g. this https://github.com/PetteriAimonen/tardis-controller
2023-02-06T15:22:18 < ventYl> jpa-: well, the fact the reason does not exists does not mean lawyers won't find one
2023-02-06T15:22:55 < jpa-> ventYl: i agree, some companies employ lawyers that try to stop the company itself from doing business
2023-02-06T15:23:08 < karlp> the gpl3 portion is more problematic than tthe apache2 portions...
2023-02-06T15:23:20 < jpa-> the gpl3 portion is just a matter of paying
2023-02-06T15:23:47 < karlp> yeah, but that's just the os, you can have freertos or something for free...
2023-02-06T15:24:03 < ventYl> lpszFreeRTOS
2023-02-06T15:24:05 < ventYl> :)
2023-02-06T15:24:16 < ventYl> one single reason I have never used that stuff
2023-02-06T15:24:22 < karlp> eh, it
2023-02-06T15:24:32 < karlp> 's not so bad, but yeah, feels very dated :)
2023-02-06T15:24:42 < karlp> you can use ith with cmsis-os wrappers if you prefer :)
2023-02-06T15:25:22 < jpa-> platformio RP2040 support has been forcing Mbed OS on me - so far it has just wasted flash and caused unnecessary interrupts :)
2023-02-06T15:25:25 < josuah> rt-thread has this nice driver API: https://github.com/RT-Thread/rt-thread/blob/master/components/drivers/touch/touch.c#L230-L235
2023-02-06T15:25:48 < josuah> jpa-: but the RP2040 SDK is huge already!
2023-02-06T15:25:59 < jpa-> looks similar to linux kernel driver API
2023-02-06T15:26:24 < jpa-> josuah: yeah, but at least the RP2040 SDK doesn't link in everything by default
2023-02-06T15:26:35 < ventYl> karlp: then there were those xPortWhatever() functions and I told myself: fuck no, I am not using this shit
2023-02-06T15:26:44 < ventYl> and then Amazon bought it and the case was settled
2023-02-06T15:26:57 < karlp> amazon'
2023-02-06T15:27:01 < karlp> s been good for it I think.
2023-02-06T15:27:02 < josuah> jpa-: I mean MbedOS on top of RP2040 by default for everyone is kind of surprising choice.
2023-02-06T15:27:31 < jpa-> josuah: i agree, i don't really understand why
2023-02-06T15:27:57 < jpa-> but it seems that platformio has a strong arduino bias, and mbed provides some of that wiring crap
2023-02-06T15:28:29 < josuah> oh right, build on top, pick something that work, and never ever look inside (ever!)
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2023-02-06T15:29:06 < jpa-> exactly - they even just ship prebuilt libmbed.a without debug symbols
2023-02-06T15:37:54 < qyx> what do you need them for
2023-02-06T15:38:00 < qyx> don't you have printf?
2023-02-06T15:38:31 < josuah> A Makefile (CMakeLists.txt if stuck with it) works for most projects out there as opposed to PlatformIO.
2023-02-06T15:38:56 < josuah> newlib has printf too iirc.
2023-02-06T15:39:11 < josuah> just needing implementation for _write somewhere.
2023-02-06T15:42:10 < jpa-> what platformio does great is getting the toolchain installed on other people's systems
2023-02-06T15:42:23 < jpa-> and configuring IDEs (vscode & others)
2023-02-06T15:42:32 < jpa-> building is trivial compared to that
2023-02-06T15:45:05 < ventYl> sadly that's what would work extremly simply in CMake if everyone was using it as it was designed
2023-02-06T15:45:13 < ventYl> but I have yet to see one implementation which does it properly
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2023-02-06T15:46:00 < josuah> <jpa-> [...] on other people's systems
2023-02-06T15:46:02 < josuah> ooh right!
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2023-02-06T15:46:35 < josuah> getting people new to embedded hop onto the train
2023-02-06T15:47:37 < jpa-> don't have to be new to embedded, it's enough to be new to a specific platform
2023-02-06T15:48:36 < jpa-> official arm-none-eabi toolchain is pretty easy to install nowadays fortunately, but many toolchains for various CPUs are pure horror
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2023-02-06T15:50:38 < josuah> definitely, I understand the use-case better now
2023-02-06T15:50:44 < josuah> thanks!
2023-02-06T15:51:34 < jpa-> time will tell how well it will hold up though.. real difficulty is often "we have had this project in manufacturing for 10 years and now we need a small firmware change, how to build?"
2023-02-06T15:53:18 < josuah> drop production, recall all units, close the company, or pay an indian to get it done by monday?
2023-02-06T15:53:58 < jpa-> are indians really that good at it?
2023-02-06T15:54:17 < josuah> I have met some who really are, others much less so
2023-02-06T15:54:53 < josuah> but was more a stereotype of the company seeking lower priced contracts in these regions, rather than a stereotype of indians
2023-02-06T15:55:28 < josuah> some folks are rarely refusing any contract regardless what it is
2023-02-06T15:56:55 < josuah> for my case, it's the opposite :D hired by an indian.
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2023-02-06T16:03:21 < Steffanx-> Where is josuah from? 
2023-02-06T16:08:40 < fenugrec> ventYl, doesn't seem like there's a miracle solution for embedded projects with cmake : include 1-2 'toolchain' files, HAL/periph libs included in repo or as submodules. Or are you talking about a hypothetical HAL/lib that responds to cmake "find_package" ?
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2023-02-06T16:10:23 < ventYl> fenugrec: I meant mostly the toolchain portion, that works reasonably well. find_package() does not play with hard embedded well, because its original purpose was entirely different
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2023-02-06T16:12:44 < fenugrec> I agree about find_package. Yea the toolchain part can be annoying to setup / update, but once done it's pretty painless. It's not like there's 50 different compilers to support too
2023-02-06T16:13:59 < fenugrec> although it's easy to get locked in to gcc-specific options and behaviour - https://github.com/candle-usb/candleLight_fw/blob/master/CMakeLists.txt  
2023-02-06T16:14:04 < jpa-> it's not? :D
2023-02-06T16:14:26 < fenugrec> not what ?
2023-02-06T16:14:32 < josuah> Steffanx-: Brittany, France, if that is what you asked.
2023-02-06T16:15:23 < Steffanx-> I think that is what I tried to ask, josuah.
2023-02-06T16:15:42 < jpa-> fenugrec: i bet there are easily 50 different compiler toolchains in common use for embedded development
2023-02-06T16:15:54 < fenugrec> jpa-, yes, but this is ##stm32 : ))
2023-02-06T16:16:12 < fenugrec> keil, IAR, gcc, llvm?, .... ?
2023-02-06T16:16:28 < jpa-> at this point STM32 is a mythology that no longer exists and is rumored to return in year 2027
2023-02-06T16:16:34 < fenugrec> hehe
2023-02-06T16:16:42 < fenugrec> stm2032
2023-02-06T16:16:48 < jpa-> it's unclear from the scripture whether the apocalypse will become before or after the STM32 returns
2023-02-06T16:16:48 < josuah> :D
2023-02-06T16:17:14  * Steffanx- sends jpa- some stm32s
2023-02-06T16:17:30 < Steffanx-> Take care of em well 
2023-02-06T16:18:00 < jpa-> Steffanx-: i know that ancient relics have been found all over the world, though i suspect they are really just earlier revision GD32 rebranded
2023-02-06T16:18:02 < josuah> there are bunch for pre-shortage price on lccs.com, but maybe not the precise one you need
2023-02-06T16:20:07 < ventYl> fenugrec: well, the point is, that with CMake you can isolate toolchain configuration well enough, so that the rest of the build system will look pretty much like an ordinary desktop application
2023-02-06T16:20:52 < ventYl> here, vast backwards compatibility of CMake does more bad than good, because historically there were nasty ways of handling third parties. recently, CMake improved a lot, but tons of legacy will live in the ecosystem for years
2023-02-06T16:26:54 < zyp> jpa-, 10 years are rookie numbers, last year I had to build a 20 year old project :)
2023-02-06T16:27:59 < zyp> or actually, when I think about it, I think I avoided having to build it
2023-02-06T16:28:04 < jpa-> :D
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2023-02-06T16:28:40 < fenugrec> I built code that has some #ifdef ATARI blocks
2023-02-06T16:28:54 < zyp> I was replacing an unobtanium cpld on it, and had to test it, so I think I hacked up some custom mcu firmware to exercise it
2023-02-06T16:29:57 < josuah> fenugrec: yikes!
2023-02-06T16:30:42 < josuah> init_all(void) { #ifdef ATARI demon_mode_2_seconds(); #endif [...] }
2023-02-06T16:31:47 < fenugrec> thing has a changelog all the way back to 1991 https://github.com/dgtlrift/hp2xx/blob/master/src/hp2xx.c
2023-02-06T16:32:29 < ventYl> fenugrec: Autodesk Maya had some macos 9 defines in its codebase last year
2023-02-06T16:32:53 < fenugrec> heh
2023-02-06T16:33:15 < ventYl> and AMD K6-specific hacks to intel maths library
2023-02-06T16:33:43 < fenugrec> so much lore
2023-02-06T16:36:45 < zyp> hrm, the nrf52 timers doesn't expose the counter register, so it can't be written or read out directly
2023-02-06T16:37:37 < zyp> only way to write it is a command to clear it, and only way to read it is to capture it and read the captured register
2023-02-06T16:39:10 < ventYl> whole nrf52 is "what looked like the best idea ever turned out to be the worst nightmare"
2023-02-06T16:39:37 < zyp> haha
2023-02-06T16:39:53 < zyp> well, I'd argue nrf52 gets some things very right
2023-02-06T16:39:59 < zyp> and other things are outright wtf
2023-02-06T16:40:07 < zyp> this is somewhere in the middle
2023-02-06T16:40:21 < ventYl> well, the easydma idea would be a bless if it actually worked
2023-02-06T16:40:46 < ventYl> but for many cases it doesn't and there is no way of using those peripherals without DMA at all
2023-02-06T16:42:04 < josuah> quite a few silicon erratas too
2023-02-06T16:42:13 < zyp> everybody got silicon erratas
2023-02-06T16:42:34 < josuah> maybe it is also that they go ahead and publish them, rather than hiding them under their HAL
2023-02-06T16:43:01 < josuah> I'm much happier to use them since I found https://github.com/NordicSemiconductor/nrfx/
2023-02-06T16:43:03 < ventYl> i guess that nrf52 erratas have more items than its reference manual has pages. which might be kind of a record outside of mainland china
2023-02-06T16:43:17 < zyp> josuah, you've looked at the stm32 errata sheets, right?
2023-02-06T16:43:30 < josuah> zyp: not yet :D
2023-02-06T16:44:15 < zyp> some stm32 parts gots some pretty wtf erratas
2023-02-06T16:44:53 < ventYl> yeah, first two revs of H7 were barely usable with some peripherals
2023-02-06T16:44:57 < josuah> the bluepill story? later fixed by GD32?
2023-02-06T16:45:03 < ventYl> but third fixed vast majority of WTF erratas
2023-02-06T16:45:15 < zyp> stm32f42x has one where half the flash is unusable if you use a certain gpio
2023-02-06T16:45:28 < qyx> oh yeah, "when using I2C2 on PB6/7 on this exact MCU and using LCD controller in this config, I2C SDA get's disconnected"
2023-02-06T16:45:47 < zyp> i.e. flash reads from bank 2 gets corrupted if there's activity on PB9 or something
2023-02-06T16:45:57 < fenugrec> hehe original
2023-02-06T16:45:59 < ventYl> nordic somehow keeps some really WTF, like you cannot send 1-byte-long message over SPI ever around
2023-02-06T16:46:14 < zyp> I hit that when client wanted to swap in a f427 for a f407 in an existing design
2023-02-06T16:46:22 < zyp> existing design used that pin
2023-02-06T16:46:44 < zyp> whole purpose of switching parts was to get the double flash capacity that f427 offered
2023-02-06T16:46:52 < qyx> haha
2023-02-06T16:47:18 < zyp> errata sheet said fixed in revision 3 so I asked around for revision 3 parts
2023-02-06T16:47:36 < zyp> digikey said they could get me them, and sent me revision 1 parts
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2023-02-06T16:48:24 < zyp> but yeah
2023-02-06T16:48:45 < zyp> the thing that's annoying me about the nrf timers now isn't an errata, just silly design
2023-02-06T16:49:16 < fenugrec> (*%$&&^%$ dammit, went to use air compressor and remembered that tank is punctured...
2023-02-06T16:49:46 < zyp> I need to detect if an 8kHz pulse signal is present or not, signal is hooked up to the analog comparator block
2023-02-06T16:50:55 < zyp> I figure easy solution is to just hook comparator to a timer to act as a pulse counter, and then just poll it once a second if it counted roughly 8000 pulses or not
2023-02-06T16:51:30 < zyp> kinda annoying to have to do a capture to get the value
2023-02-06T16:51:50 < fenugrec> go overboard - set WDT to 1/8000s timeout, interrupt on pin change, reset WDT in ISR
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2023-02-06T16:52:07 < zyp> :)
2023-02-06T16:52:21 < fenugrec> best way to kill power efficiency and latency in one operation
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2023-02-06T19:55:42 < karlp> meh, trying to recover a remote home assistant install that ran out of diskspace.
2023-02-06T19:55:47 < karlp> it says the db is corrupted, so I want to save it.
2023-02-06T19:55:59 < karlp> getting only 500KB/sec uploads over 4G.  lammmm.
2023-02-06T19:56:08 < karlp> not used to that sort of shit now.
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2023-02-06T20:04:32 < rustyaxe> ouch. i'm on tmo LTE and see about 40/15M up/down :o
2023-02-06T20:07:52 < rustyaxe> Was getting about 2/1 before put the router outside (it's industrial kit, why not?)
2023-02-06T20:08:04 < karlp> this is home, so yeah, kinda sad witht eh summerhouse. it didnt' feel that bad normally when I was out there, but not normally usin the upload I guess https://www.speedtest.net/result/14315078675
2023-02-06T20:08:49 < josuah> karlp: would temporarily moving to a place with fast connection and blow in the pipes work?
2023-02-06T20:09:09 < qyx> we have about 10/25 down/up
2023-02-06T20:09:13 < karlp> nah, I'll just let it download in the backgroudn
2023-02-06T20:09:20 < qyx> up is usually much faster on lte
2023-02-06T20:09:34 < karlp> I'v ebeen putting off dealing with this, but time to fix it.
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2023-02-06T21:02:17 < kaki> Steffanx-: musics(quality) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFTQehvbThQ
2023-02-06T21:07:33 < ventYl> yesterday astronomy picture of the day was actually taken 10 years ago by the Cassini probe
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2023-02-06T21:48:36 < Laurence_b> the absolute state of hyperloop
2023-02-06T21:48:53 < kaki> hypernews!
2023-02-06T21:48:54 < Laurence_b> >retard manager has sanded the barcodes off the TGV motor stators
2023-02-06T21:49:16 < Laurence_b> now there is no way to match them to the QA database records
2023-02-06T21:50:20 < Laurence_b> he decided to redesign the database and numbering system, but didnt bother to transfer the numbers of the existing stock to the new system
2023-02-06T21:50:38 < ventYl> how could that possibly even happen? like "hey! here's a barcode, I will sand it down!"
2023-02-06T21:50:43 < Laurence_b> ikr
2023-02-06T21:50:46 < kaki> OCD
2023-02-06T21:50:49 < kaki> bored
2023-02-06T21:51:11 < Laurence_b>  "they are in the QA ok area, so it doesn't matter"
2023-02-06T21:51:23 < kaki> how does it matter btw
2023-02-06T21:51:35 < Steffanx-> But what's the point of removing it. 
2023-02-06T21:51:57 < Laurence_b> I cant even try to read the remains of the old barcodes as he has printed new ones on top
2023-02-06T21:52:07 < kaki> laser etched
2023-02-06T21:52:09 < kaki> ?
2023-02-06T21:52:10 < Steffanx-> Unless he plans on killing Laurence_b with it. Like removing the serial number from a gun
2023-02-06T21:52:13 < ventYl> btw, I have checked my calendar and it says 2023. how is it possible that hyperloop is using barcodes instead of QR ?
2023-02-06T21:52:19 < Laurence_b> kaki: parts need stored documentation of CAT scans etc
2023-02-06T21:52:32 < kaki> didn't understand what you saying
2023-02-06T21:52:43 < Laurence_b> kaki: no, laser printed ink transfer thing
2023-02-06T21:53:07 < kaki> maybe project was going too  well
2023-02-06T21:53:16 < kaki> manager needs to prolong the project
2023-02-06T21:53:25 < kaki> and challenge Laurence_b
2023-02-06T21:53:33 < Laurence_b> each part needs to have all its quality testing documentation stored, so if it fails in service it can be proved that it wasnt defective
2023-02-06T21:54:09 < Laurence_b> also, there is now a motor stator in the "QA passed" area with a barcode that doesnt match anything in the database, and nobody admits to building it...
2023-02-06T21:54:20 < Laurence_b>  "its just a database error"
2023-02-06T21:55:11 < Laurence_b> prob best not to ride on TGV if this shit continues
2023-02-06T21:56:05 < Laurence_b> I think the manager is trolling me because he thinks my quality assurance process is overlong
2023-02-06T21:56:48 < kaki> thing is those parts didn't pass
2023-02-06T21:58:03 < kaki> mess up databases so bad units good units all good
2023-02-06T21:58:20 < ventYl> Laurence_b: if I didn't witness a bunch of germans wondering, why standard interior automotive connector (not watertight) allows passage of water into ECU casing, I wouldn't believe you
2023-02-06T21:58:28 < Laurence_b> yeah, the thermal design of this motor is borderline, failing stators are at risk of thermal runaway in service
2023-02-06T22:23:10 < qyx> zyp: you are a plasma cutter pro here, what lowest consumption one can be obtained and what steel thickness does it cut if you remember the numbers?
2023-02-06T22:25:57 < qyx> hm 2.5 kW for 10 mm steel max
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2023-02-06T23:55:33 < zyp> no idea, doubt my little thing consumes much power and I've done 6mm steel with it
2023-02-06T23:56:28 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: oz4ga
2023-02-06T23:56:44 < zyp> I've got this shit: https://eur.vevor.com/plasma-cutter-c_10061/vevor-50a-air-plasma-cutter-cutting-machine-non-touch-pilot-cutter-inverter-220v-p_010388717604
--- Day changed ti helmi 07 2023
2023-02-07T00:01:39 < qyx> do you have a photo of the cut?
2023-02-07T00:02:11 < qyx> I am limited to <3 kW now
2023-02-07T00:02:41 < zyp> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/797468335969271818/984765764999471134/IMG_20220610_122643.jpg
2023-02-07T00:03:06 < zyp> that's me trying to freehand a circle
2023-02-07T00:03:23 < qyx> oh not very impressive
2023-02-07T00:03:34 < zyp> I know, my freehand skills suck :)
2023-02-07T00:03:46 < qyx> interwebs said it should do a fairly clean cut
2023-02-07T00:04:09 < zyp> I expect it can if held steady and tuned right
2023-02-07T00:04:20 < zyp> ask me again once I've got it running with CNC
2023-02-07T00:04:30 < qyx> heh
2023-02-07T00:09:25 < zyp> tonight I was welding up a shelf rack: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/797468335969271818/1072256678378090516/IMG_20230206_214451.jpg
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2023-02-07T00:16:01 < qyx> nice
2023-02-07T00:16:31 < qyx> where is kaki, a friend is requesting some finnish underground rap
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2023-02-07T03:55:36 < aandrew> zyp: much sturdy. I just get the pre-fab ones whenever they go on sale for $50 or less: https://www.princessauto.com/en/5-shelf-galvanized-steel-shelving-unit/product/PA0008533846
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2023-02-07T09:57:37 < zyp> aandrew, I'm designing this shit to be movable with a pallet jack
2023-02-07T09:59:11 < qyx> aandrew: do you want some https://www.bauhaus.sk/regalux-regal-27243752
2023-02-07T09:59:27 < qyx> but those are sh*t
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2023-02-07T13:10:17 < karlp> man, homeassistant has some really major fuckingholes sometimes.
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2023-02-07T13:18:19 < Steffanx-> Uh?
2023-02-07T13:19:12 < Steffanx-> I have my home assistant back up to Google drive automatically. I yet have to experience how easy it is to restore for such backup
2023-02-07T13:19:21 < Steffanx-> From*
2023-02-07T13:19:28 < Steffanx-> Maybe i should give it a try
2023-02-07T13:23:30 < karlp> I got annoyed at only having 10 days of chart history for temp/humitidy sensors, 
2023-02-07T13:23:33 < karlp> expanded it to 500 days.
2023-02-07T13:23:42 < karlp> it promptly ran out of disk and crashed.
2023-02-07T13:24:00 < karlp> it ... doesn't seem to have any option for intermediate.
2023-02-07T13:24:17 < karlp> I can excluded sensors, and i can have one single date to keep things for.
2023-02-07T13:24:48 < karlp> and HA people have just told me today, "jsut because the grpahing and history and shit is there doesn't mean you should use it! you should use grafana and show grafana charts inside ha..."
2023-02-07T13:24:54 < karlp> just... wild.
2023-02-07T13:26:52 < karlp> anywya, now I get to push a cleaned up database back to the remote site at 100kB/sec.  awesome!
2023-02-07T13:30:01 < ventYl> is actually running the STM32Cube really the only option of getting some generic linker script out of it?
2023-02-07T13:33:18 < mawk> you can write your own if you want
2023-02-07T13:33:21 < mawk> it's not that complex
2023-02-07T13:33:58 < ventYl> I'd expect that some templates do exist, but there are only examples
2023-02-07T13:34:20 < ventYl> I could do my own, but for sake of example for my own project I'd like to not bother with it
2023-02-07T13:34:50 < jpa-> you can just pick some example for same cpu and copy from it, there isn't much to modify anyway  https://github.com/STMicroelectronics/STM32CubeF4/blob/3d6be4bd406f275728e0a321cc371c62a3100533/Projects/STM32F446ZE-Nucleo/Demonstrations/SW4STM32/STM32F4xx_Nucleo_144/STM32F446ZETx_FLASH.ld
2023-02-07T13:36:31 < ventYl> I'd expect that they are nicely put somewhere into one location, so you don't have to scout for them
2023-02-07T13:36:34 < ventYl> but no
2023-02-07T13:37:01 < mawk> they're all pretty similar
2023-02-07T13:37:01 < ventYl> maybe some L0 cuba actually does that, I remember something like that
2023-02-07T13:37:07 < ventYl> I know
2023-02-07T13:37:07 < mawk> for a given cpu family anyway
2023-02-07T13:37:13 < mawk> you just change flash size and ram size at the top and voilà
2023-02-07T13:38:11 < josuah> karlp: if it transfers over SSH, there is -C for compressing, but well... good luck :(
2023-02-07T13:39:04 < ventYl> mawk: well, I am doing example for a piece of SW, which basically can run on anything. I'd expect that I include CMSIS device header, use CMSIS startup file and device linker script and I am ready to jump straight into my main()
2023-02-07T13:39:06 < josuah> works in rsync too iirc (-z)
2023-02-07T13:39:43 < zyp> ventYl, your expectations are too high
2023-02-07T13:39:51 < ventYl> mawk: then, in theory, I would just swap device name and it should build with pretty much anything
2023-02-07T13:40:08 < ventYl> zyp: surprisingly, it works with nordic and RP2040
2023-02-07T13:40:22 < ventYl> almost
2023-02-07T13:40:46 < ventYl> rp2040 is such a mess, that it cannot make it without linking whole SDK in
2023-02-07T13:40:49 < josuah> ventYl: RP2040 has a 512 bytes (iirc) of data before the vector tble
2023-02-07T13:41:08 < mawk> rsync -C just makes things slower for me josuah 
2023-02-07T13:41:12 < mawk> but maybe I have a lame cpu
2023-02-07T13:41:12 < josuah> ventYl: https://josuah.net/firmware/rp2040/ this works
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2023-02-07T13:41:29 < ventYl> josuah: I have rp2040 already running
2023-02-07T13:41:39 < josuah> mawk: tradeoff between CPU and network :S
2023-02-07T13:42:01 < mawk> Nom de modèle :                         Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-8565U CPU @ 1.80GHz
2023-02-07T13:42:04 < mawk> this is supposedly my cpu
2023-02-07T13:42:13 < mawk> I kinda chose it at random when making the laptop
2023-02-07T13:42:32 < josuah> ventYl: my bad, I thought you wanted to avoid the pico-sdk
2023-02-07T13:42:40 < josuah> there is https://github.com/jamesturton/libopencm3/tree/add-rp2040/lib/rp2040 too from someone else's effort
2023-02-07T13:42:42 < ventYl> poor ssh -C performance seems to be universally cpu-agnostic. it always sucks and speed up is marginal or negative
2023-02-07T13:43:08 < ventYl> josuah: that will probably be a fork of my own effort :)
2023-02-07T13:43:20 < josuah> it helps a lot for X11 forwarding, maybe due to large arrays of 0x00 transferred? no idea
2023-02-07T13:43:51 < josuah> ventYl: he said mostly USB was WIP, the rest working mostly well
2023-02-07T13:44:20 < mawk> I use -C when using ssh tuntap forwarding
2023-02-07T13:44:23 < mawk> but not when copying files
2023-02-07T13:44:29 < mawk> maybe I should remove the -C for tunnel to
2023-02-07T13:44:30 < mawk> o
2023-02-07T13:44:43 < ventYl> josuah: I have this: https://github.com/ventZl/libopencm3/tree/rp2040. Way ahead of him
2023-02-07T13:44:46 < josuah> nordic has this SoftDevice blob thing, but in the end it works a bit like a bootloader, and gets out of the way most of the time (except when you step on the peripherals it uses)
2023-02-07T13:44:56 < josuah> ventYl: thanks! I'll let him know
2023-02-07T13:45:07 < ventYl> josuah: feel free to use whatever will be useful
2023-02-07T13:45:19 < ventYl> karlp won't merge any of that :))
2023-02-07T13:46:00 < mawk> there's the bootloader and then the softdevice
2023-02-07T13:46:09 < ventYl> josuah: softdevice is mostly relevant only if you want to use BLE, you definitely don't need it if you are not using BLE. and there is nimBLE, which completely avoids softdevice at all
2023-02-07T13:46:26 < mawk> or zigbee or whatever else
2023-02-07T13:46:30 < mawk> unless you reimplement it yourself
2023-02-07T13:46:38 < ventYl> ok, radio, not BLE
2023-02-07T13:46:57 < josuah> great to konw!
2023-02-07T13:47:23 < josuah> s/konw/know/  I like that the hardware is just a plain radio, allowing any protocol on top
2023-02-07T13:47:36 < ventYl> josuah: IIRC, that rp2040 thing can actually build, run and control GPIOs. I somehow hacked pico-sdk bootloader in to make stuff running
2023-02-07T13:47:39 < josuah> maybe some hardware handling for bluetooth frequency hopping though? I'll look that up
2023-02-07T13:47:49 < mawk> for some annoying protocols like zigbee I guess it's just better to use the softdevice
2023-02-07T13:48:10 < ventYl> not just any, it has some tuning possibilities but frame formats pretty much limit it to BLE and some other low-range protocols
2023-02-07T13:48:54 < mawk> and modulation
2023-02-07T13:50:20 < mawk> but sometimes you have hacks to abuse the frame format
2023-02-07T13:50:20 < Steffanx-> Zephyr has its own ble stack for it too i recall
2023-02-07T13:50:34 < mawk> like the nrf24l01+ thing to set it to "monitor mode"
2023-02-07T13:51:15 < ventYl> Steffanx-: isn't zephyr using nimble? or at least nimble has zephyr port
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2023-02-07T13:51:52 < ventYl> hm, maybe it was mynewt
2023-02-07T13:52:41 < josuah> <Steffanx-> Zephyr has its own ble stack for it too i recall
2023-02-07T13:52:52 < josuah> to the point where Nordic new SDK is officially Zephyr now!
2023-02-07T13:53:04 < josuah> they drop their nRF5 SDK
2023-02-07T13:54:09 < ventYl> fuck
2023-02-07T13:54:18 < Steffanx-> josuah, but there are still two choices. Pure zephyr ble stack or Nordics softdevice something.
2023-02-07T13:55:50 < josuah> yes ok thanks
2023-02-07T13:56:04 < Steffanx-> I should use other terminology, but meh. BLE is all about controllers, host system and what not.
2023-02-07T13:56:17 < josuah> ventYl: their nRF5 SDK is still available and somewhat maintained, maybe bugfixes
2023-02-07T13:56:48 < josuah> ventYl: $work's project switched to https://github.com/NordicSemiconductor/nrfx/ like Micropython did
2023-02-07T13:57:16 < josuah> and it was about a week to migrate everything to it and bugfix everything
2023-02-07T13:58:28 < josuah> I have seen contractors based 100% the nRF5 SDK, putting another layer between the SoftDevice and the nRF5 SDK. they'll get a hard time!
2023-02-07T13:58:36 < ventYl> isn't nrfx actually a subset of nrf5 sdk?
2023-02-07T13:58:59 < ventYl> i remember something called nrfx inside nrf5 sdk
2023-02-07T14:01:15 < Steffanx-> Nrfx was their new api
2023-02-07T14:01:19 < Steffanx-> Is
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2023-02-07T14:07:32 < josuah> ventYl: I think it is, it has an "MDK" (startup files, register definitions), a "HAL" (just some static inline functions for setting registers), and a "Driver" (making use of the HAL to give something higher level)
2023-02-07T14:07:54 < josuah> quite layered already for something expected to be low-level!
2023-02-07T14:08:11 < ventYl> that's similar to how cube is put together
2023-02-07T14:08:31 < ventYl> the only drawback is that nrf52 becomes practically unusable without HAL due to the amount of erratas
2023-02-07T14:08:57 < ventYl> or here, without the "Driver"
2023-02-07T14:08:58 < josuah> nrf_* is the "hal", nrfx_* is the "driver", https://developer.nordicsemi.com/nRF_Connect_SDK/doc/2.1.0/nrfx/drivers/index.html
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2023-02-07T15:15:23 < zyp> error: '1073819648' is a pointer; did you mean to use '->'?
2023-02-07T15:15:29 < zyp> nice
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2023-02-07T15:26:38 < aandrew> qyx: the ones I get aren't the best, but I've not had one fail yet and some of them are holding quite a bit of weight. There are cheaper ones here too but those are very poor
2023-02-07T15:27:56 < aandrew> Steffanx-: my esxi server got hit by the recent crytolocker attacks. besides the attack being easy to recover from, I was able to restore from backup and was up and running on a VPS on a diferent network in about 6h, most of that being trying to port the old configs to the new version of software
2023-02-07T15:28:53 < josuah> the joys of backups
2023-02-07T15:31:30 < Steffanx-> Yeah but this is home assistant ;)
2023-02-07T15:31:57 < Steffanx-> Running on some rpi
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2023-02-07T15:45:54 < aandrew> Steffanx-: yeah I have HA running on a VM... it's alright. claims it's doing backups but I haven't tried them
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2023-02-07T18:20:38 < fenugrec> musics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDZ0hnbOa2s
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2023-02-07T20:36:47 < ventYl> josuah: hm, I am looking at nrf5_SDK and there's nrfx with mdk, hal and drivers. so I guess that nrf5 SDK is really just a superset of nrfx, or nordic even renamed the new thing to the old name
2023-02-07T20:59:07 < josuah> ventYl: so in the end, you'd eventually only miss the high-level features of the SDK, like all the APP_ERR_CHECK() macros and whatnot
2023-02-07T21:00:28 < josuah> the READM says:
2023-02-07T21:00:32 < josuah> > It originated as an extract from the nRF5 SDK.
2023-02-07T21:04:08 < ventYl> ok
2023-02-07T21:05:48 < ventYl> well, the stuff just built
2023-02-07T21:06:10 < ventYl> it was actually easier than with Cube
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2023-02-07T21:14:03 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.pussthecat.org/pic/media%2FFoXu2H-XsAAESeS.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
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2023-02-07T21:49:27 < PaulFertser> LOL https://ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator
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2023-02-07T21:52:49 < ventYl> so american
2023-02-07T21:54:12 < PaulFertser> Suggestion to use this was shared by an american in a comment for IronOS ticket, yes. Do they really not learn this stuff at school?
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2023-02-07T21:57:16 < ventYl> no magic formula for it, sorry
2023-02-07T21:59:12 < ventYl> zyp: actually, that CMSIS assumption turned out to be rather valid-ish
2023-02-07T21:59:42 < zyp> :)
2023-02-07T22:00:25 < ventYl> i'm feeling lucky, what about trying some Microchip MCU
2023-02-07T22:00:37 < ventYl> are they cortexes already?
2023-02-07T22:00:48 < zyp> the sam parts are
2023-02-07T22:01:39 < ventYl> sam7 were some weird pre-cortex ARMv6twhateverlettersbelonghere
2023-02-07T22:02:16 < ventYl> sam7s*
2023-02-07T22:04:36 < qyx> yes sam7s was arm7tdmi, the only microchip part I have ever used
2023-02-07T22:06:34 < Steffanx-> before it was even microchip probably
2023-02-07T22:06:45 < ventYl> I have one still marked as Atmel
2023-02-07T22:06:52 < ventYl> IIRC, it is even some 7X
2023-02-07T22:06:56 < qyx> sorry yes it was atmel
2023-02-07T22:07:58 < ventYl> WTF
2023-02-07T22:08:07 < ventYl> MPLAB IDE Archives
2023-02-07T22:08:09 < ventYl> 16-bit Windows
2023-02-07T22:08:43 < ventYl> mpl540ful.exe: MS-DOS executable, NE for MS Windows 3.x (EXE)
2023-02-07T22:08:49 < ventYl> O_o
2023-02-07T22:24:51 < rustyaxe> usually .exe files are viruses anyways
2023-02-07T22:26:55 < Steffanx-> i dont trust rustyaxes either
2023-02-07T22:33:16 < ventYl> Steffanx-: what can an ordinary mortal being use to build a software for microchips? is there any SDK available for download?
2023-02-07T22:33:34 < ventYl> I am only getting 16-bit MS-DOS viruses
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2023-02-07T22:34:44 < ventYl> hm, I have just found a link to asf3 download
2023-02-07T22:34:58 < Steffanx-> Yeah asf some version
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2023-02-07T22:35:20 < Steffanx-> Or microchip fucking studio and download it all :P
2023-02-07T22:35:30 < ventYl> I just want CMSIS headers
2023-02-07T22:35:43 < ventYl> I don't even have any microchip MCU around
2023-02-07T22:38:49 < karlp> ~lol
2023-02-07T22:39:02 < karlp> the C in cmsis is short for "get fucked we never want to work on arm7tdmi again"
2023-02-07T22:39:15 < ventYl> :>
2023-02-07T22:45:20 < zyp> I'm glad my encounters with new mcus mostly just consists of adding some shit to laks and calling it a day
2023-02-07T22:45:57 < ventYl> I want to avoid maintaining my own HAL
2023-02-07T22:46:41 < ventYl> on the other hand, my kernel only needs some stuff out of SCB, MPU and a bunch of intrinsics
2023-02-07T22:47:00 < ventYl> I could probably hardcode all of it
2023-02-07T22:47:24 < karlp> what legacy auto wank are you targetting that you give a shit about new software support for arm7tdmi anyway?
2023-02-07T22:48:49 < zyp> maintaining laks is not so hard, trick is just to get karlp to use it and he'll start adding stuff to it
2023-02-07T22:49:31 < karlp> are you going to update the usb headers to "dev_v2" style?
2023-02-07T22:49:45 < karlp> I was looking at what it woudl take to add a new one, but saw it was a different form,
2023-02-07T22:49:56 < karlp> and wasnt's ure the best way of interpreting what I had to implement for a new target.
2023-02-07T22:50:17 < karlp> because spi slave bidir fifo was shitting me, so "just do usb instead" sounded like a good idea.
2023-02-07T22:51:07 < zyp> I wanna redo usb entirely with async stuff at some point
2023-02-07T22:51:32 < zyp> but apart from that, how are you thinking?
2023-02-07T22:52:03 < zyp> they already got yaml instancing
2023-02-07T22:52:39 < zyp> hmm, or dwc_otg does, haven't used usb with anything else since v2
2023-02-07T22:53:04 < karlp> hrm, I'll look at it again then. I might have gotten confused by the mismatches between dwc and the other ones.
2023-02-07T22:53:22 < karlp> fucking, usb network won't come up, giving up on work for the day.
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2023-02-07T22:56:00 < bitmask> hi hi
2023-02-07T22:57:49 < Steffanx-> Gooday 
2023-02-07T22:58:06 < bitmask> how goes it
2023-02-07T22:58:53 < Steffanx-> Good be better, but I'll survive :P 
2023-02-07T22:59:03 < Steffanx-> And in the land of the bitmasks?
2023-02-07T22:59:18 < bitmask> same same
2023-02-07T23:01:04 < bitmask> i started a new project and then decided I didnt' have the time and stopped :/
2023-02-07T23:01:24 < bitmask> I dont know enough about op amps and hardware PID and crap
2023-02-07T23:01:32 < Steffanx-> What happened with your time?
2023-02-07T23:01:48 < bitmask> just more important things to worry about
2023-02-07T23:01:53 < bitmask> brb lunch time
2023-02-07T23:02:06 < Steffanx-> Have fun as always 
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2023-02-07T23:26:17 < ventYl> karlp: I am not targeting tdmi, I am trying to find any Microchip part which may already be Cortex-M, so I *don't* accidentally stumble upon something w/o CMSIS headers
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--- Day changed ke helmi 08 2023
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2023-02-08T00:18:49 < zyp> ventYl, again, the newer sam parts are
2023-02-08T00:19:01 < zyp> didn't even know sam7 existed
2023-02-08T00:19:28 < ventYl> zyp: hm, even some pic32 parts are actually cortex-m
2023-02-08T00:19:37 < ventYl> fucking naming
2023-02-08T00:20:01 < zyp> oh, yeah, I think I heard that
2023-02-08T00:20:22 < zyp> I'm assuming those kept the pic32 periphs and just swapped the cpu from mips to cortex-m
2023-02-08T00:21:12 < zyp> and if so, I wonder if some of them shows signs of being originally designed for a big endian system :p
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2023-02-08T00:25:30 < qyx> zyp: hjalp
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2023-02-08T00:25:41 < qyx> /tmp/cclj0F9N.s:210: Error: cannot honor width suffix -- `mov r0,#128'
2023-02-08T00:25:41 < qyx> /tmp/cclj0F9N.s:300: Error: bad instruction `mst basepri,r0'
2023-02-08T00:26:02 < qyx> I don't have ani mst, I have msr there
2023-02-08T00:26:19 < zyp> how does the source for this look?
2023-02-08T00:27:04 < qyx> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/xKf0x
2023-02-08T00:27:42 < qyx> nothing relevant on the interwebs
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2023-02-08T00:28:56 < zyp> this behavior is deterministic?
2023-02-08T00:29:15 < qyx> yes with g++ 12
2023-02-08T00:30:51 < zyp> so, the width suffix thing is because you get a mov.w which doesn't exist in arm-v6m, probably because 128 is out of range for literals for regular mov
2023-02-08T00:30:52 < ventYl> I've seen something similar even with gcc 10
2023-02-08T00:31:02 < zyp> the mst I can't reproduce
2023-02-08T00:32:16 < qyx> okay, let's check cm0plus port of freertos then
2023-02-08T00:33:07 < qyx> they don't use basepri at all
2023-02-08T00:33:14 < qyx> they use cpsid/cpsie instead
2023-02-08T00:33:36 < qyx> do cm0+ have basepri?
2023-02-08T00:33:40  * qyx curious
2023-02-08T00:34:21 < josuah> <ventYl> zyp: hm, even some pic32 parts are actually cortex-m
2023-02-08T00:34:44 < josuah> I was wondering if some people really won't buy anything if not written PIC on the marking
2023-02-08T00:34:54 < zyp> qyx, looks like it doesn't
2023-02-08T00:35:00 < josuah> i.e. those using these parts for 20 years
2023-02-08T00:35:30 < zyp> qyx, so interrupts are probably just on/off, not minimum level
2023-02-08T00:35:46 < qyx> seems so
2023-02-08T00:35:50 < qyx> cpsie/cpsid works
2023-02-08T00:37:25 < zyp> ah, the mov needs to be written movs to not turn into a mov.w
2023-02-08T00:37:28 < zyp> then it compiles
2023-02-08T00:38:00 < zyp> https://godbolt.org/z/3s4n3ba43
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2023-02-08T00:54:51 < qyx> I should really read some ARM assembly tutorial
2023-02-08T01:13:53 < zyp> I don't think tutorials go much into details like this, you're better off looking up references
2023-02-08T01:18:57 < ventYl> you usually don't want actually to need to know these details
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2023-02-08T12:12:41 < karlp> bleh, upload new rev of pcb, different handler, they're like, "no, you can't make this, the v-cut will destroy it all here, here, here here and here"
2023-02-08T12:12:51 < karlp> need to poitn them to how they did it last time.
2023-02-08T12:18:35 < karlp> look at the current ones they've alrady made, and they've not vcut the edges they're complaining about.
2023-02-08T12:54:51 < zyp> heh
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2023-02-08T17:44:55 < catphish> hello sirs. i have a question.
2023-02-08T17:45:33 < catphish> does STM32 support deadtime between two GPIO pins *without* PWM?
2023-02-08T17:45:57 < zyp> explain
2023-02-08T17:46:58 < catphish> i'd like to be able to (ideally in hardware) link two pins such that only one can output a logic one at a time, and with a deadtime delay between the two
2023-02-08T17:47:07 < zyp> I would expect the deadtime logic in the timers to still work even if you put the timer in oneshot mode
2023-02-08T17:47:18 < catphish> i don't mind using the timer peripheral for this, but i don't want actual PWM, i want to drive the output directly
2023-02-08T17:47:38 < karlp> you're not going to get a hardware delaychaing+xor 
2023-02-08T17:47:48 < karlp> not with "gpio_set"
2023-02-08T17:47:56 < zyp> what's the difference between driving the output directly and using pwm with only 0% and 100% duty?
2023-02-08T17:48:14 < catphish> zyp: honestly, that was my first thought, and i will do that if it's the best solution
2023-02-08T17:48:56 < catphish> if i switch the unbuffered PWM output between 0 and 100%, i guess this will achieve what i want
2023-02-08T17:48:59 < zyp> best is relative
2023-02-08T17:49:39 < catphish> and to answer the inevitable "why" question
2023-02-08T17:50:42 < catphish> i want to try controlling controlling current flow in real time rather than with PWM
2023-02-08T17:51:08 < zyp> right, so you have a pwm controller and want to try doing a bang-bang controller instead?
2023-02-08T17:51:15 < catphish> yes
2023-02-08T17:51:25 < catphish> i only know this technique as part of "direct torque control"
2023-02-08T17:51:28 < catphish> i dont know if it has another name
2023-02-08T17:51:42 < zyp> if so, 0%/100% pwm is the most obvious and easy way
2023-02-08T17:51:56 < catphish> but basically you interrupt on an ADC and switch between high and low driver according to whether current is too high or too low
2023-02-08T17:52:00 < zyp> since it fits right into what you've got already with minimal changes
2023-02-08T17:52:05 < catphish> *nod*
2023-02-08T17:52:29 < catphish> right now i'm controlling my motor my measuring current then using a PID to control PWM voltage
2023-02-08T17:53:00 < catphish> it works in most cases, but there are some weird edge cases where less voltage actually causes current to rise
2023-02-08T17:53:21 < catphish> so i figured i'd try controlling the individual phase currents directly
2023-02-08T17:54:09 < catphish> maybe i can still do this with PWM and a per phase PID
2023-02-08T17:54:39 < catphish> but i'd also like to look into dropping the PWM frequency entirely and just doing binary switching
2023-02-08T17:54:55 < catphish> or tri-state
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2023-02-08T21:42:09 < jadew> are you guys using copilot?
2023-02-08T21:47:19 < jpa-> yes, we are all using the ##stm32 copilot
2023-02-08T21:47:54 < jadew> genuine question
2023-02-08T21:48:10 < jadew> I'm tempted to get a license, but I think it will send everything to MS
2023-02-08T21:48:21 < jadew> like... all the code you're working on
2023-02-08T21:51:34 < specing> why wouldn't it ofc
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2023-02-08T22:16:06 < Steffanx-> Imagine how fast you'll be able to write this pico logger clone, jadew :P
2023-02-08T22:16:26 < zyp> only a couple of decades or so?
2023-02-08T22:16:40 < rustyaxe> my copilot crashed :(
2023-02-08T22:19:12 < jadew> apparently it enables you to write code extremely fast
2023-02-08T22:19:31 < BrainDamage> you can write faulty code faster
2023-02-08T22:20:11 < jadew> not everyone can do that, some people take a long time to come up with faulty code
2023-02-08T22:20:53 < jadew> I just asked chatGPT a programming question for which I didn't have an answer (I actually googled for this today) and it knew the answer...
2023-02-08T22:21:15 < jadew> it even gave me an example snippet that compiles and it's correct from all points of view
2023-02-08T22:21:37 < jadew> there are things that are not specifically mentioned anywhere and it somehow took them into account
2023-02-08T22:22:11 < qyx> no more encyclopaediae in 2023?
2023-02-08T22:22:19 < jadew> I wonder if I could find the answer to that question using a different engine, maybe google is just shitty these days
2023-02-08T22:22:28 < jadew> qyx, looks like it, yeah
2023-02-08T22:22:43 < qyx> I remember we used to search libraries hours long to find out any relevant information
2023-02-08T22:22:46 < jadew> MS wants to integrate a more powerful chatGPT variant into its bing search
2023-02-08T22:22:49 < jadew> with a built in chat feature
2023-02-08T22:23:01 < jadew> qyx, yeah, that's gone
2023-02-08T22:23:33 < jadew> 90% of IRC help channels are officially redundant as of now
2023-02-08T22:24:04 < jadew> unless you invite chatGPT on IRC
2023-02-08T22:24:07 < jadew> then they're good again
2023-02-08T22:25:38 < jadew> yup, can't find an answer to my question with bing either
2023-02-08T22:26:47 < PaulFertser> The problem with ChatGPT answers is that you never know which parts of them are true.
2023-02-08T22:27:01 < PaulFertser> And where it got it from.
2023-02-08T22:27:07 < veverak> Same goes for IRC :P
2023-02-08T22:27:07 < jadew> that is a problem but once integrated into bing, it will get a reference feature
2023-02-08T22:27:10 < PaulFertser> Probably ubuntuforums
2023-02-08T22:27:33 < jadew> so whatever it says, it will list references at the bottom and link various snippets from the answer to them
2023-02-08T22:27:43 < jadew> so you can at least verify if it seems sketchy
2023-02-08T22:27:52 < jadew> but yeah, that's a valid concern
2023-02-08T22:27:57 < PaulFertser> Sounds sane
2023-02-08T22:28:11 < zyp> PaulFertser, this is all true: https://github.com/karlp/zypsnips/blob/master/lolrence-desist.png
2023-02-08T22:28:35 < PaulFertser> Thank you human for verifying.
2023-02-08T22:29:15 < PaulFertser> The letter is brilliant indeed.
2023-02-08T22:29:17 < jadew> lol, that's funny
2023-02-08T22:29:20 < jadew> yeah
2023-02-08T22:29:42 < jadew> the AI can be surprisingly funny on demand too
2023-02-08T22:30:19 < jadew> I asked it to write a funny story about santa claus, a mouse and a shovel and it was genuinely enjoyable to read
2023-02-08T22:31:43 < qyx> can chatgpt recommend me some recent symphonic metal albums to listen?
2023-02-08T22:32:07 < jadew> probably, but its training data ends in 2021
2023-02-08T22:34:04 < qyx> to be a bit ontopic, any idea how to do a dual footprint symbol in kicad?
2023-02-08T22:34:19 < qyx> like an opamp with TSOP8 and SOIC8
2023-02-08T22:34:25 < qyx> at the same time I mean
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2023-02-08T22:36:27 < jadew> qyx, let me ask chatgpt
2023-02-08T22:37:12 < jadew> it knows
2023-02-08T22:39:09 < jadew> http://5.12.146.50/stuff/Screenshot%20from%202023-02-08%2022-38-03.png
2023-02-08T22:39:22 < jadew> qyx ^
2023-02-08T22:40:38 < qyx> ok that's not funny
2023-02-08T22:40:56 < qyx> I meant not manually drawing it :P
2023-02-08T22:41:07 < qyx> but actually yeah it is probably the easiest one
2023-02-08T22:41:14 < qyx> just copy two footprints to a single one
2023-02-08T22:41:52 < jadew> I didn't try to understand the answer, but jeez...
2023-02-08T22:42:04 < jadew> imagine what this will be like in 10 years
2023-02-08T22:42:19 < jadew> couple that with neuralink and we're all going to be the smartest person alive
2023-02-08T22:45:02 < jadew> google is losing its shit over this
2023-02-08T22:45:17 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/KRlrm/Screenshot_2023-02-08_21-45-00.png
2023-02-08T22:45:20 < qyx> I can see a problem there
2023-02-08T22:46:49 < jadew> what does dual footprint mean tho?
2023-02-08T22:46:59 < jadew> ah you mentioned that
2023-02-08T22:47:09 < jadew> well you just create the symbol and attach multiple footprints to it
2023-02-08T22:47:12 < qyx> to be able to populate either one
2023-02-08T22:47:37 < jadew> and when you associate your part (from the schematic) to the footprint, you get to select from the two you have entered in the list of footprints
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2023-02-08T22:47:57 < qyx> yes thats the standard one to get one footprint per part
2023-02-08T22:48:02 < qyx> I want two per part
2023-02-08T22:48:12 < qyx> one part in the schematic, two footprints at the same time on the pcb
2023-02-08T22:48:16 < qyx> like in the screenshot
2023-02-08T22:48:26 < jadew> ah...
2023-02-08T22:48:32 < jadew> what kind of part is that?
2023-02-08T22:48:35 < qyx> opamp
2023-02-08T22:48:47 < jadew> why do you have one symbol for two parts?
2023-02-08T22:48:56 < zyp> alternate assembly
2023-02-08T22:49:04 < qyx> no, two footprints for one symbol :P
2023-02-08T22:49:14 < qyx> because, you know, shortage
2023-02-08T22:49:19 < jadew> ah, I get it now
2023-02-08T22:49:44 < jadew> I know how it can happen by mistake, don't know if you can do it intentionally
2023-02-08T22:50:27 < qyx> also, I am starting to hate anything with visible pads
2023-02-08T22:50:44 < qyx> qfn/bga >>>>> tssop/lqfp
2023-02-08T22:50:52 < jadew> why?
2023-02-08T22:51:14 < qyx> because no self align, very fragile, prone to bending during hand assembly, etc.
2023-02-08T22:52:02 < qyx> at the end I have much better FPY with qfn/bga
2023-02-08T22:52:22 < jadew> you don't pick them up by hand, do you?
2023-02-08T22:53:13 < qyx> during the drag soldering part of the process, not during pickup
2023-02-08T22:53:14 < qyx> and, no
2023-02-08T22:53:17 < qyx> I don't
2023-02-08T22:53:28 < jadew> ah, you don't reflow them
2023-02-08T22:53:45 < qyx> no but I should
2023-02-08T22:53:52 < jadew> yup
2023-02-08T22:54:33 < jadew> even prototypes are worth doing like that, and you can get one of those small MHP30 hot plates to assist there
2023-02-08T22:54:41 < jadew> (for preheating)
2023-02-08T22:55:41 < qyx> https://eleshop.eu/aoyue-853a-preheater.html
2023-02-08T22:55:43 < qyx> is this legit?
2023-02-08T22:56:29 < PaulFertser> And IronOS runs on MHP30 (which is stm32-based).
2023-02-08T22:56:43 < zyp> I've got a MHP30, it's great
2023-02-08T22:57:14 < jadew> PaulFertser, did they fix the color coding?
2023-02-08T22:57:25 < jadew> standard the colors of the LED are really weird
2023-02-08T22:57:35 < jadew> like it looks like snow when it's at 300 degrees
2023-02-08T22:57:50 < qyx> mhp30? 30x30 heating area?
2023-02-08T22:57:58 < jadew> qyx, something like that, yeah
2023-02-08T22:58:09 < jadew> very convenient
2023-02-08T22:58:10 < qyx> but I am not doing wearables
2023-02-08T22:58:22 < jadew> you can heat up only the part that you want to work on
2023-02-08T22:58:32 < PaulFertser> jadew: I haven't seen any complaints about LED colours recently.
2023-02-08T22:59:48 < jadew> oh, and I paired mine with an omnivise
2023-02-08T22:59:54 < jadew> really good combo
2023-02-08T23:02:31 < zyp> that looks nice, I've been using the sensepeek holders with mine, but they're like a mm too low
2023-02-08T23:03:10 < jadew> zyp, I know, that's why I didn't go for those holders
2023-02-08T23:03:24 < zyp> they're still great for everything else :p
2023-02-08T23:03:40 < jadew> with the Omnivise you need to raise the MHP30, but that's easily done with a 3d printed support
2023-02-08T23:03:53 < zyp> oh
2023-02-08T23:04:03 < zyp> that's no better than just raising the sensepeek holders then :p
2023-02-08T23:04:19 < jadew> but you can't raise them, because they're magnetic, no?
2023-02-08T23:04:39 < jadew> something like this: https://www.meshplorer.com/3dmodels/mhp30-stand-for-hakko-c1390c-omnivise-pcb-holder/NRKAF89L/
2023-02-08T23:06:15 < zyp> sure I can, just raise the metal base they go on
2023-02-08T23:08:33 < qyx> what do you use for applying solder paste?
2023-02-08T23:09:02 < qyx> any more sophisticated holder other than a few pcbs duktaped to the table?
2023-02-08T23:09:03 < jadew> for one off prototypes I use a solder paste dispenser if there aren't many components
2023-02-08T23:09:14 < jadew> ah, that's what you mean
2023-02-08T23:09:25 < qyx> for stencils
2023-02-08T23:09:33 < jadew> I normally print a frame for the PCB
2023-02-08T23:09:39 < qyx> nah
2023-02-08T23:09:42 < jadew> but other PCBs duct taped to the table work best
2023-02-08T23:09:54 < jadew> they have the exact same height
2023-02-08T23:10:15 < qyx> and how to you attach the stencil?
2023-02-08T23:10:19 < jadew> and I have a bunch of corner holders for the stencil
2023-02-08T23:10:19 < qyx> duct tape too?
2023-02-08T23:10:44 < jadew> I duct tape the corners to the table, so when I put the stencil there, it lines up perfectly with the board
2023-02-08T23:11:01 < qyx> k I'll try that
2023-02-08T23:11:37 < qyx> and for dispensing, anything other than a plastic spachtel?
2023-02-08T23:11:39 < jadew> they do tend to move around... so I would recommend trying to find something better first
2023-02-08T23:11:41 < qyx> or how is the thing called
2023-02-08T23:12:05 < jadew> I use a plastic card
2023-02-08T23:12:29 < qyx> will mifare do?
2023-02-08T23:12:53 < jadew> why not?
2023-02-08T23:13:08 < jadew> the biggest problem is if the stencil bends
2023-02-08T23:13:37 < qyx> hm yeah I can imagine
2023-02-08T23:13:42 < jadew> so you want its edges supported too - I haven't figured that part out yet
2023-02-08T23:13:49 < qyx> do you treat the stencil in any way before applying the paste?
2023-02-08T23:14:10 < jadew> no, I clean it afterwards so the tiny holes don't get plugged
2023-02-08T23:14:38 < zyp> IPA is good for cleaning
2023-02-08T23:14:48 < jadew> yeah
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2023-02-08T23:17:46 < jadew> I always wanted something like this: https://www.aliexpress.com/i/1005004305947194.html
2023-02-08T23:18:58 < jadew> couldn't justify the price, but I'm sure it would have saved me from many screw ups
2023-02-08T23:19:25 < zyp> I haven't done stencilling for years, once shit gets complex enough to need one I tend to outsource assembly
2023-02-08T23:19:26 < jadew> the one I linked is quite inexpensive
2023-02-08T23:19:28 < catphish> jadew: i use copilot, i get it for free, but i seriousl recommend it, huge benefit to my productivity / motivation
2023-02-08T23:19:57 < zyp> but I might get back to stencilling for some upcoming shit I'm gonna do
2023-02-08T23:20:14 < catphish> it doesn't always magically write correct code, but it just keeps up momentum by providing (scarily good) suggestions
2023-02-08T23:20:24 < jadew> zyp, do you have any parts that you have to send to the assembly house?
2023-02-08T23:20:44 < jadew> catphish, yeah, I used it once when they released a beta in VS
2023-02-08T23:21:01 < jadew> it was pretty good, but I hear the current one is even better
2023-02-08T23:21:35 < jadew> you're not worried about MS getting your code?
2023-02-08T23:21:50 < jadew> or about the AI learning from your code and making you obsolete? :)
2023-02-08T23:21:53 < catphish> it does of course have to send all code to microsoft, you have to trust that they aren't using your proprietary code to train the bot for other people (or for any other purpose), but i dout they do, i don't see why they'd lie about that, they have access to more than enough FOSS code
2023-02-08T23:22:04 < zyp> jadew, I've currently got a couple thousand dollars worth of parts sitting in a box waiting to get sent for assembly
2023-02-08T23:22:18 < jadew> zyp, I see...
2023-02-08T23:22:36 < zyp> usually I get everything shipped directly
2023-02-08T23:22:48 < jadew> I have these shielding can frames that I modify myself, I didn't know if it's customary to send parts to the assembly house
2023-02-08T23:22:59 < jadew> interesting...
2023-02-08T23:23:14 < jadew> maybe I'll start producing my stuff again
2023-02-08T23:23:24 < zyp> shortage made it hard to get everything at once this time
2023-02-08T23:23:38 < jadew> there's still a shortage of chips?
2023-02-08T23:23:40 < catphish> jadew: my experience with it right now is that it's incredible. today i spend 5 minutes looking up a fairly obscure api function i wanted to call, and learned how to use it, went back to my text editor ready to call that function, pressed enter to start a new line, and copilot wrote the exact code for me, i have never felt so impotent :D
2023-02-08T23:23:41 < zyp> currently waiting for the last tray to show up and then I can ship everything together for assembly
2023-02-08T23:23:51 < zyp> it's getting better
2023-02-08T23:24:51 < zyp> I've got a tray of these on order, mouser says I'll have them in about a month: https://no.mouser.com/ProductDetail/454-W956A8MBYA5I
2023-02-08T23:25:06 < jadew> zyp, there are concerns that the Ukrain war and the related sanctions are going to affect chip production a lot because of the various materials that were being produced by both Ukraine and Russia
2023-02-08T23:25:11 < catphish> its main strength is in easy  repetitive stuff, prompted by comments, so if you write: "// Copy 100 bytes from X into Y" it'll just do it for you
2023-02-08T23:25:26 < jadew> catphish, yeah, that's very appealing
2023-02-08T23:25:41 < jadew> it's the stuff that's boring in programming, because you've done it 100 times before
2023-02-08T23:25:47 < jadew> 1000
2023-02-08T23:25:59 < catphish> but it'a also a lot smarter than that, the incident i had today was i called an API function to create a network interface, then i looked up how to actually bring up the interface, but it already knew that's what i'd want to do next
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2023-02-08T23:26:29 < catphish> jadew: that's what i mean about keeping up the momentum, it eliminates the boring stuff
2023-02-08T23:27:20 < jadew> sounds so good
2023-02-08T23:27:28 < catphish> and it always succeeds at the really obvious stuff, if you write: a[0] = b[0]; and then a[1]... it'll start filling in as many lines of that as you need
2023-02-08T23:28:45 < catphish> honestly, i writes plenty of dumb / incorrect code, particularly if you don't write a comment first, but it's still motivating that it's giving you something, for me i spend less time wondering what to write next, even correcting bad suggestions is easier than staring at a blank function
2023-02-08T23:29:12 < jadew> heh
2023-02-08T23:29:47 < catphish> i use it for hobby C and professional Go, and i'd pay for it if i didn't get it for free
2023-02-08T23:31:06 < jadew> apparently the early version of the beta was giving out API keys in the suggestions
2023-02-08T23:31:13 < jadew> (which were working) :D
2023-02-08T23:34:00 < catphish> i don't see why it shouldn't if those are examples in published free code
2023-02-08T23:34:37 < jadew> they weren't
2023-02-08T23:34:50 < catphish> well that's disturbing then
2023-02-08T23:34:56 < jadew> apparently it was reproducing copyrighted code too
2023-02-08T23:35:04 < catphish> it's supposed to learn from FOSS licenced code in public github repos
2023-02-08T23:35:19 < catphish> and people do publish API keys in FOSS repos sometimes
2023-02-08T23:35:37 < jadew> https://www.theverge.com/2022/11/8/23446821/microsoft-openai-github-copilot-class-action-lawsuit-ai-copyright-violation-training-data
2023-02-08T23:35:42 < catphish> i know because one of my employees did so once, we got hacked all source code stolen, very embarassing
2023-02-08T23:35:45 < qyx> oh that means the quality of closed sores will finally improve
2023-02-08T23:36:37 < catphish> that article accuses it of reproducting *free* code
2023-02-08T23:36:47 < jadew> catphish, opensource != free
2023-02-08T23:36:52 < catphish> ie the code it's *supposed* to learn from (but not reproduce)
2023-02-08T23:37:42 < catphish> jadew: i kinda agree with you, but the the "official open source" people don't, they say open source == FOSS licence
2023-02-08T23:38:04 < jadew> https://twitter.com/DocSparse/status/1581461734665367554
2023-02-08T23:38:05 < qyx> yes but that's not free
2023-02-08T23:38:20 < qyx> it is free under some conditions
2023-02-08T23:38:26 < qyx> like keeping the copyright notice, etc.
2023-02-08T23:38:51 < jadew> it even includes the comments :)
2023-02-08T23:39:00 < qyx> probably the only applicable free code in this scenario is CC0
2023-02-08T23:39:29 < catphish> it's supposed to filter its output so that it rejects code that exactly matches its input dataset
2023-02-08T23:39:43 < specing> so microsoft finally figured out how to steal copylefted code
2023-02-08T23:39:45 < catphish> i suspect they've added / improved that filter since people complained
2023-02-08T23:39:46 < specing> well done
2023-02-08T23:40:13 < jadew> I have no problem with it, as long as it's not my code :P
2023-02-08T23:40:37 < qyx> such ambivalency
2023-02-08T23:40:46 < qyx> e
2023-02-08T23:43:37 < catphish> jadew: tbh the risk isn't having your code stolen (especially if you publish it anyway), the risk is stealing somone elses and getting sued
2023-02-08T23:44:00 < jadew> that's true also
2023-02-08T23:44:19 < jadew> which is why you should never opensource :P
2023-02-08T23:44:31 < catphish> this is why copilot has the option to explicitly compare all suggested code to free code and reject any code that matches too closely
2023-02-08T23:45:12 < catphish> all my software is free, if anyone ever complaines i stole their code i'd just include their copyright notice and licnece :)
2023-02-08T23:46:05 < jadew> now everyone can blame the dog when someone accuses them of stealing :P
2023-02-08T23:46:56 < jadew> anyway, I think it's a great technology, but I want the model on my PC... I don't like the idea of private code leaving my PC
2023-02-08T23:47:48 < catphish> ultimately it only works if you trust github, my private (work) code is on github anyway, so the point is moot
2023-02-08T23:48:04 < jadew> ah, true
2023-02-08T23:49:01 < catphish> i used to run a major github competitor, we kept a mirror of our code on github, even in that situation i seriously doubt that even bothered to read it
2023-02-08T23:49:43 < qyx> repo.or.cz?
2023-02-08T23:50:08 < qyx> joking.
2023-02-08T23:50:09 < catphish> codebasehq.com
2023-02-08T23:50:49 < catphish> once upon a time we alternated with github for top google hit for git hosting, but they obliterated us :)
2023-02-08T23:57:10 < catphish> in fact, i don't know if it's just becuse i'm in the UK, or if google is broken now, but if i search git hosting on google, codebasehq.com appears in the top 10 and github doesn't
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--- Day changed to helmi 09 2023
2023-02-09T00:00:16 < BrainDamage> google personalizes search results based off the model it thinks stuff is interesting to you
2023-02-09T00:01:25 < BrainDamage> this referred as a "search bubble", because it's an algoritmically enforced confirmation bias system
2023-02-09T00:02:08 < jadew> my bubble sucks, cuz I never find the stuff I'm looking for lately
2023-02-09T00:04:25 < qyx> same here
2023-02-09T00:04:36 < qyx> google results are getting worse over time
2023-02-09T00:05:25 < jadew> maybe they've been priming us to accept the AI as our saviour
2023-02-09T00:05:45 < jadew> so when they finally launch it it's like a breath of fresh air and we don't want to ever let it go
2023-02-09T00:05:53 < fenugrec> you can also... you know logout of your G accounts and clear cookies once in a while
2023-02-09T00:06:17 < catphish> i don't know how much the google search bubble thing is true
2023-02-09T00:06:38 < catphish> i always test without cookies and get similar (but geographically relevant) results
2023-02-09T00:06:46 < BrainDamage> they literally advertise it as a feature
2023-02-09T00:07:10 < BrainDamage> google goes a bit of the extra mile by using browser fingerprinting
2023-02-09T00:07:23 < BrainDamage> I can get different results, but it takes me a bit off efforts
2023-02-09T00:07:24 < fenugrec> true
2023-02-09T00:08:01 < fenugrec> it takes a surprising amount effort to counteract fingerprinting, and usually ends up breaking a ton of shitty sites
2023-02-09T00:08:14 < jadew> so even if you're going incognito, google still watches you masturbate
2023-02-09T00:08:25 < fenugrec> ofc
2023-02-09T00:09:05 < catphish> i don't believe google would personalize when you deliberately incongnito, why would they bother
2023-02-09T00:09:14 < qyx> I don't have google account logged in
2023-02-09T00:09:24 < jadew> they wouldn't, but they're probably tracking you
2023-02-09T00:09:29 < jadew> I do, because I like the benefits
2023-02-09T00:09:39 < jadew> I like it when they suggest my fav. motivational videos on youtube
2023-02-09T00:09:49 < qyx> neme what
2023-02-09T00:09:52 < qyx> *bene what
2023-02-09T00:10:22 < jadew> bene? as in Italian for good?
2023-02-09T00:11:13 < jadew> what does "bene what" mean?
2023-02-09T00:12:35 < BrainDamage> he seens no benefits
2023-02-09T00:13:20 < jadew> ah!
2023-02-09T00:14:44 < karlp> catphish: it's more, why would they _not_
2023-02-09T00:15:45 < catphish> karlp: because it doesn't make sense to deliberately give users results they are asking not to get, like if i type in "cat", it doesn't make sense for them to give me dogs, just becaue they know i like dogs
2023-02-09T00:16:14 < catphish> there's a benefit to giving users content you know they want
2023-02-09T00:16:28 < catphish> but no benefit to giving them content they've explicitly asked not to get
2023-02-09T00:17:54 < catphish> also, i figure google, while they love tracking, are big and successful enough not to resort to shady things
2023-02-09T00:18:15 < jadew> catphish, you don't know if that's actually the case
2023-02-09T00:18:27 < catphish> true, i'm speculating
2023-02-09T00:18:35 < fenugrec> they are very much into make money. And tracking everything possible, every time possible, makes money.
2023-02-09T00:18:40 < fenugrec> into *making money
2023-02-09T00:18:41 < jadew> they've probably ran studies on that: do we make more money from giving people what they want or by giving them slightly less?
2023-02-09T00:18:53 < catphish> but my experience is that not sending cookies gives normal geographically relevent results
2023-02-09T00:19:02 < jadew> and based on that they are likely to alter what they do
2023-02-09T00:19:29 < jadew> a 1% change in your results is not much, but if it results in a 1% change in their profits off of you, it's huge
2023-02-09T00:19:37 < jadew> (for google)
2023-02-09T00:29:59 < catphish> *nod*
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2023-02-09T00:34:25 < qyx> closed firefox, 10GB ram freed
2023-02-09T00:41:51 < jadew> makes you wonder what's using all that memory
2023-02-09T00:42:02 < jadew> I think it's the javascript
2023-02-09T00:45:38 < zyp> mine is at 10.7GB now
2023-02-09T00:47:02 < zyp> I don't think it's too unreasonable considering a lot of stuff are webapps that runs in the browser nowadays, only makes sense that the browser needs resources then
2023-02-09T00:47:06 < qyx> hm aisler is being more expensive every month
2023-02-09T00:47:09 < qyx> for 4 ayer
2023-02-09T00:47:43 < jadew> I'm not sure where to look on linux...
2023-02-09T00:48:25 < BrainDamage> firefox has its own task manager
2023-02-09T00:48:32 < qyx> where
2023-02-09T00:48:39 < jadew> you right click on a tab
2023-02-09T00:48:43 < qyx> ocie
2023-02-09T00:48:55 < BrainDamage> more tools, task manager
2023-02-09T00:48:55 < jadew> oh, it's not there
2023-02-09T00:49:17 < jadew> mine reports 1 GB
2023-02-09T00:49:18 < qyx> hamburger > more tools > task manager
2023-02-09T00:49:28 < qyx> mine 460 MB right after restart
2023-02-09T00:50:21 < zyp> apparently github is the most memory hungry thing I've got open
2023-02-09T00:50:25 < zyp> 714 MB
2023-02-09T00:51:35 < jadew> but how exactly can you tell how much memory firefox is using?
2023-02-09T00:51:48 < qyx> first line in that task manager
2023-02-09T00:52:02 < jadew> I'm on linux
2023-02-09T00:52:05 < qyx> but other than than, I can tell after closing it
2023-02-09T00:52:10 < qyx> I am too
2023-02-09T00:52:11 < jadew> I get virtual memory, res memory, shared memory
2023-02-09T00:52:15 < qyx> no
2023-02-09T00:52:20 < qyx> in firefox task manager
2023-02-09T00:52:48 < jadew> ah, right, but that's its internal counter, who knows how well it maps out to actual memory reserved from the OS
2023-02-09T00:52:50 < qyx> it was easy when firefox was a single process long ago
2023-02-09T00:53:44 < BrainDamage> if you want aggregated by base process name, use ps_mem
2023-02-09T00:53:52 < BrainDamage> command line tool
2023-02-09T00:54:07 < jadew> command not found
2023-02-09T00:54:40 < BrainDamage> do I need to spell out what to do?
2023-02-09T00:54:45 < qyx> pstree says firefox-bin is the parent process
2023-02-09T00:55:00 < qyx> and top says firefox-bin uses around 600 MB
2023-02-09T00:55:08 < qyx> so yeah, higher number than in its task manager
2023-02-09T00:55:17 < jadew> BrainDamage, the error usually goes like "apt install <package>" but not this time
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2023-02-09T00:55:32 < jadew> there has to be a different way
2023-02-09T00:56:22 < BrainDamage> 🤷
2023-02-09T00:56:51 < jadew> how do you calculate anyway, if two programs are using the same shared library - how do you know which one is responsible for how much of the allocation from that library
2023-02-09T00:57:17 < BrainDamage> shared memory is accounted separately
2023-02-09T00:57:17 < jadew> is Windows reporting the virtual memory?
2023-02-09T00:57:55 < jadew> BrainDamage, I know, but if you want to know how much memory a process is using, you have to take into account the memory allocated indirectly, but the libraries it's using
2023-02-09T00:57:56 < BrainDamage> in linux shared memory is accounted by taking the shared mem, and dividing it by the numberof programs
2023-02-09T00:58:32 < BrainDamage> https://0x0.st/oChF.txt
2023-02-09T00:58:33 < jadew> s/but/by/
2023-02-09T00:58:55 < BrainDamage> the largest majority of the memory is private
2023-02-09T00:58:57 < jadew> that's ps_mem?
2023-02-09T00:59:01 < BrainDamage> yes
2023-02-09T00:59:25 < BrainDamage> and the result is consistent with actually used ram
2023-02-09T01:00:19 < BrainDamage> I could discard the shared memory, and be off by less than 1%
2023-02-09T01:00:31 < jadew> makes sense it would be, but is it not possible that a particular program can make the memory usage of a library inflate disproportionally much compared to what other programs are doing?
2023-02-09T01:00:52 < BrainDamage> that's a pathological case, but sure
2023-02-09T01:00:52 < jadew> resulting in the memory footprint to increase for the other programs too if you just divide by the number of programs using the library?
2023-02-09T01:01:38 < jadew> I'm curious how windows does it
2023-02-09T01:01:41 < qyx> TIL ps_mem, looks good
2023-02-09T01:02:03 < jadew> apt search ps_mem: no result
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2023-02-09T01:02:07 < qyx> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/YO4ov
2023-02-09T01:02:14 < qyx> jadew: pip3 install ps-mem
2023-02-09T01:02:24 < BrainDamage> windows doesn't overcommit, so its memory model is quite different
2023-02-09T01:02:26 < qyx> are you a lunix newcomer?
2023-02-09T01:02:37 < jadew> qyx, I don't use pip
2023-02-09T01:02:50 < qyx> it looks there is no other way
2023-02-09T01:02:54 < qyx> you can grab it from github
2023-02-09T01:02:57 < qyx> no package it seems
2023-02-09T01:03:04 < qyx> at least not for debian
2023-02-09T01:03:12 < jadew> nah, I don't care that much about memory to go through all that trouble
2023-02-09T01:03:20 < qyx> it was 2 seconds
2023-02-09T01:03:48 < jadew> let me put it differently - I don't install stuff from from random repositories on my machine
2023-02-09T01:04:13 < BrainDamage> mine was a distro package, I can understand that reasoning
2023-02-09T01:04:16 < qyx> yes me neither, I just broke my frozen desktop concept
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2023-02-09T01:05:33 < jadew> sometimes I do, but it's a lot of work
2023-02-09T01:05:51 < jadew> I have to veto the code, or otherwise scan everything in the repository
2023-02-09T01:05:58 < jadew> like I did with the NI stuff
2023-02-09T01:07:03 < BrainDamage> flatpaks might interest you
2023-02-09T01:07:08 < BrainDamage> they are self contained, partially isolated program packages
2023-02-09T01:07:21 < BrainDamage> they can run in any distro that support flatpaks
2023-02-09T01:08:03 < BrainDamage> mind you, I say semi-isolated because X security model prevents any sort of isolation
2023-02-09T01:08:15 < BrainDamage> and by default flatpaks have full access to home, however, you can restrict that
2023-02-09T01:08:32 < jadew> that's similar to snap, no?
2023-02-09T01:09:04 < jadew> snap packages seem to support per-app permissions
2023-02-09T01:09:15 < jadew> not sure how that's implemented, but it's a step in the right direction
2023-02-09T01:09:46 < BrainDamage> snap's canonical own thing, flatpaks is the globally accepted standard
2023-02-09T01:10:06 < BrainDamage> cgroups can create fine grained program access
2023-02-09T01:10:08 < jadew> didn't know that, I'll look into it
2023-02-09T01:10:13 < jadew> thanks
2023-02-09T01:14:43 < BrainDamage> if you want a quick and dirty way to sandbox a program, bubblewrap is fine
2023-02-09T01:14:59 < BrainDamage> if you want better fine grained control and tons of documentation, write a systemd service
2023-02-09T01:16:53 < jadew> bubblewrap looks cool too
2023-02-09T01:17:02 < BrainDamage> flatpaks use bubblewrap
2023-02-09T01:17:03 < jadew> normally I just fire up a VM
2023-02-09T01:17:28 < BrainDamage> both bubblewrap and systemd use kernel's cgroups
2023-02-09T01:17:53 < BrainDamage> it's a somewhat recent feature, but it's bringing a breath of fresh air in terms of usable security
2023-02-09T01:18:18 < BrainDamage> I can create a fake root, or simply deny a path's access, etc
2023-02-09T01:19:03 < jadew> sounds very useful
2023-02-09T01:19:30 < BrainDamage> https://0x0.st/oCFo.txt  eg this is the kind of stuff I added to a closed source VPN I had to use
2023-02-09T01:19:34 < jadew> I see it was created by google
2023-02-09T01:20:50 < jadew> so systemd provides an easy way of configuring all that
2023-02-09T01:20:52 < jadew> nice
2023-02-09T01:20:59 < BrainDamage> yes
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2023-02-09T01:22:42 < jadew> I didn't realize hamachi was still relevant
2023-02-09T01:22:52 < BrainDamage> the control is so fine grained that I make a virtual tmp that appears just for the program, or I create a fake /etc with just the file it needs as ro
2023-02-09T01:23:10 < jadew> I noticed
2023-02-09T01:23:25 < jadew> that's really cool, because it can't snoop around other tmp files
2023-02-09T01:23:40 < jadew> maybe that should be the default for every program
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2023-02-09T01:31:24 < jadew> before I go to bed, google revealed a new feature for their map service today
2023-02-09T01:31:53 < jadew> it takes a few 2d photos from inside a restaurant or something, and converts it into a 3d thing you can walk through
2023-02-09T01:32:47 < jadew> https://youtu.be/yLWXJ22LUEc?t=1336
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2023-02-09T01:54:40 < fenugrec> can someone ask chatgpt to fix my winusb code for me pls, thx
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2023-02-09T04:18:55 < josuah> fenugrec: if only it could take away all these cumbersome awkward bugs to fix, and let us all the fun engineering times left to do
2023-02-09T04:19:37 < josuah> fenugrec: but I fear it would only lead to precisely the opposite: have human the most awkward bugs taht could not be easily fixed by ChatGPT
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2023-02-09T05:24:45 < Phantom> HI there, so, I am doing some STM32F103 coding in cubeide... I'm halfway done thru the hard part of the coding, now I'm at the "add the second half part of the hardware", so I set up some pins to be output in the configuration thing and... I get a busy mouse... and since it is set to save on exit, if I exit it save... when I reopen... white screen on the configuration thing...
2023-02-09T05:25:01 < Phantom> anyone knows of a work around?
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2023-02-09T09:47:50 < zyp> not using cubeide is a good one
2023-02-09T09:49:09 < jpa-> reformat computer and start again
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2023-02-09T10:41:16 < ventYl> Phantom: use a backup, or previous revision from git
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2023-02-09T11:23:48 < karlp> qyx: did you figure out a technique for dual footprint trickery?
2023-02-09T11:24:09 < karlp> I was thinking about it the other day, but couldn't think of any easy solution, and colleague is prepared to hand solder the alternate, so... his problem.
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2023-02-09T12:12:29 < qyx> karlp: nope
2023-02-09T12:32:05 < jpa-> i have done dual footprints by just creating a new library footprint called e.g. TSSOP_SSOP_16
2023-02-09T12:33:18 < jpa-> you can copy-paste the footprint pads in the kicad footprint editor, then when routing you get the ratsnest between same numbered pads
2023-02-09T12:39:57 < karlp> yeah, that was kinda how I thought it would have to go, 
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2023-02-09T18:16:18 < jbo> qyx, ping
2023-02-09T18:41:54 < Steffanx-> You lose.
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2023-02-09T19:09:35 < jbo> indeed
2023-02-09T19:09:37 < jbo> nothing on fire yet tho
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2023-02-09T20:24:48 < mawk> Steffanx- https://imgur.io/a/PUxepIF
2023-02-09T20:24:50 < mawk> look
2023-02-09T20:24:54 < mawk> what I made
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2023-02-09T20:38:19 < Steffanx-> Chocolate thingies or what is it mr Mawk?
2023-02-09T20:38:40 < mawk> soap
2023-02-09T20:39:10 < Steffanx-> Oh lol. Expecting to go to jail soon?
2023-02-09T20:39:15 < mawk> lol
2023-02-09T20:39:17 < jbo> knowing mawk it's most likely psychedelic soap
2023-02-09T20:39:41 < mawk> no it's 100% regular non-psychoactive inert soap
2023-02-09T20:39:47 < mawk> with essential oils of eucalyptus and pine
2023-02-09T20:39:59 < jbo> my gf would digg that
2023-02-09T20:39:59 < mawk> and blue coloring to turn it greenish
2023-02-09T20:40:00 < Steffanx-> Oh reminds me it's time for eye drugs. Thanks.
2023-02-09T20:40:13 < mawk> for mydriasis?
2023-02-09T20:40:16 < mawk> or pain
2023-02-09T20:40:20 < mawk> or relaxation 
2023-02-09T20:40:41 < jbo> knowing Steffanx- it's most likely a bullshit repellant designed for use when sharing a chat room with lolrence
2023-02-09T20:41:40 < Steffanx-> Cortisone and antibiotics 
2023-02-09T20:41:54 < jbo> ah, the good stuff
2023-02-09T20:41:57 < jbo> steffan sick? :(
2023-02-09T20:42:07 < mawk> he's getting a bionic eye
2023-02-09T20:42:13 < Steffanx-> Not sick. Eye surgery. 
2023-02-09T20:42:44 < Steffanx-> Except for the stitches it's all still me, mawk
2023-02-09T20:43:09 < jbo> what did you see? what did they have to cut out? what did we do to you?!
2023-02-09T20:43:31 < Steffanx-> They just removed some tissue and moved around some tissue.
2023-02-09T20:48:20 < mawk> they didn't add a new lense?
2023-02-09T20:52:14 < Steffanx-> No.
2023-02-09T20:53:46 < Steffanx-> It's not in the eye like cataract. Its all on the surface 
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2023-02-09T21:00:24 < PaulFertser> mawk: I saw some people buying https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropicamide who obviously abused for IV
2023-02-09T21:01:01 < PaulFertser> They didn't look happy at all.
2023-02-09T21:04:38 < mawk> lol
2023-02-09T21:04:45 < mawk> deliriants, the worst kind of drugs
2023-02-09T21:04:55 < mawk> it's weird how many mydriatics are also deliriants
2023-02-09T21:04:59 < mawk> like atropine 
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2023-02-09T21:08:20 < Steffanx-> I'm not sure what they put in my eye for the pupil dilation, but they didn't tell me about the psychosis side effect 😬
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2023-02-09T21:36:57 < Laurence_b> lol hyperboss has been arrested, hes in jail
2023-02-09T21:37:52 < kaki> you got tired of him?
2023-02-09T21:38:05 < kaki> loaded 50TB of CP to his computer
2023-02-09T21:38:13 < Laurence_b> almost lol
2023-02-09T21:38:20 < Laurence_b> he got Chris Hanson'd
2023-02-09T21:38:39 < Laurence_b> by some youtube group
2023-02-09T21:38:56 < kaki> really?
2023-02-09T21:39:27 < kaki> so hyperboss will be replaced?
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2023-02-09T21:40:31 < Laurence_b> yeah, but not the overall boss, the fake barcode uy
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2023-02-09T21:45:54 < BrainDamage> what's his name?
2023-02-09T21:48:58 < Laurence_b> secrit
2023-02-09T21:50:45 < kaki> hyperhorny
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2023-02-09T21:54:41 < rustyaxe> sounds like you too have experience getting rid of undesirable coworkers... :)
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2023-02-09T22:28:58 < Steffanx-> Why i dont believe a word of what Laurence_b  just said?
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2023-02-09T22:30:29 < Steffanx-> Relevant musics for today kaki https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwaIenAeGqs
2023-02-09T22:31:05 < kaki> sounds good
2023-02-09T22:31:13 < Steffanx-> maybe some more boom boom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DfEMLKpz-8
2023-02-09T22:31:24 < Steffanx-> @ mawk will like the last one more
2023-02-09T22:31:58 < kaki> how relevant?
2023-02-09T22:32:07 < Steffanx-> Fantasy world relevant.
2023-02-09T22:59:15 < catphish> i wonder how power companies deal with the increasing amonunt of loads that only draw power at the peaks each phase voltage
2023-02-09T22:59:50 < kaki> electric cars?
2023-02-09T23:00:21 < kaki> you know electric trains are single phase
2023-02-09T23:00:26 < kaki> no problems
2023-02-09T23:00:49 < catphish> i don't know how those work
2023-02-09T23:01:32 < catphish> i'd assume most *large* consumers like electric motors draw current throughout the AC cycle
2023-02-09T23:01:57 < catphish> but huge numbers of small consumers with rectifiers must only draw power at the voltage peaks
2023-02-09T23:02:15 < specing> catphish: wdym? loads that only drain power at peaks of the AC waveform?
2023-02-09T23:02:18 < specing> err
2023-02-09T23:02:21 < specing> catphish: wdym? loads that only drain current at peaks of the AC waveform?
2023-02-09T23:02:43 < catphish> specing: imagine a full bridge rectifier with a capacitor and a load
2023-02-09T23:03:01 < catphish> it only draws power from the grid when the AC voltage exceeds the capacitor voltage
2023-02-09T23:04:02 < catphish> so there must be a HUGE increase in load on the grid as each phase voltage reached its peak
2023-02-09T23:04:08 < BrainDamage> catphish: that's what active pc is for
2023-02-09T23:04:11 < BrainDamage> pfc*
2023-02-09T23:04:24 < BrainDamage> you put a boost converter between the rectifier and the caps
2023-02-09T23:05:00 < specing> catphish: I see now
2023-02-09T23:05:04 < catphish> that's kinda cool, is that common?
2023-02-09T23:05:16 < catphish> seems like a huge cost for little benefit to the user
2023-02-09T23:05:25 < kaki> I think it's somewhat mandatory
2023-02-09T23:05:25 < specing> catphish: I think e.g. all computer PSUs nowadays are active PFC
2023-02-09T23:05:35 < BrainDamage> virtually all pc psu have it since more than a decade
2023-02-09T23:05:35 < catphish> that's good
2023-02-09T23:06:10 < specing> BrainDamage: I bought some good ones 9 years ago that aren't
2023-02-09T23:06:43 < specing> https://geizhals.eu/?cat=gehps&xf=364_passiv
2023-02-09T23:07:02 < specing> 1336 PSUs listed with aPFC, 21 without
2023-02-09T23:07:46 < BrainDamage> I said virtually all, that's 1% of the total
2023-02-09T23:07:46 < BrainDamage> pretty sure it's statistically negligible :p
2023-02-09T23:08:43 < specing> hehe
2023-02-09T23:08:47 < rustyaxe> on the subject of power supplies.. I need about 1200W of 13.8V DC on a budget
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2023-02-09T23:09:02 < specing> the trouble with aPFC supplies is that they don't list if they are DC-combatible
2023-02-09T23:09:26 < rustyaxe> i vaguely remember the glow plug pulling up to 40A :o
2023-02-09T23:09:29 < specing> rustyaxe: trim a computer PSU to do a bit more than 12V? :)
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2023-02-09T23:11:39 < fenugrec> that can be difficult if the psu has a voltage feedback driven by 3v3 / 5V rail. They may trip overvoltage protection if you try to go too far
2023-02-09T23:12:25 < fenugrec> rustyax get one of those dell server psus, IIRC they'll do 12V at ludicrous currents
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2023-02-09T23:15:04 < fenugrec> or was it delta
2023-02-09T23:17:01 < fenugrec> dps-1000 or somethign
2023-02-09T23:21:56 < kaki> rustyaxe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zKvxx2WdX4
2023-02-09T23:23:05 < kaki> you get 1200w with 220V
2023-02-09T23:23:13 < kaki> 900W with 110V
2023-02-09T23:26:02 < kaki> just buy 2
2023-02-09T23:31:30 < BrainDamage> https://github.com/mTvare6/hello-world.rs
2023-02-09T23:31:45 < qyx> jbo: pong
2023-02-09T23:32:57 < kaki> "As a rust(🚀) developer, I have no idea how any of my code or computers actually works, but its cool to ask people in discord.gg/rust(🚀) for all help and write code🚀"
2023-02-09T23:35:10 < kaki> yeah it's a gag project right?
2023-02-09T23:35:22 < karlp> zyp: what's a better way of doing https://github.com/karlp/laks/blob/dc62e11a7ec0d88e2aeade07013a82e1d2426441/timer/ch58x_pwm.h#L29 ?  my issue is that the user facing code ends up with: https://github.com/karlp/l2-krv-miniblink/blob/main/src/timer-piezo1.cpp#L181 and I'd rather it have something like DataBits::Five or something?
2023-02-09T23:35:28 < karlp> (I'll read scrollback about to head out)
2023-02-09T23:36:14 < BrainDamage> kaki: yes, it pokes fun of all the stereotypical nonsense in the rust community
2023-02-09T23:36:33 < karlp> reminds me of the old enterprise java helloworld 
2023-02-09T23:37:07 < kaki> is that actual number of required files to hello world?
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2023-02-09T23:38:10 < BrainDamage> no, it's intentionally written in obtuse way, but for that specific project, indeed it is
2023-02-09T23:38:25 < rustyaxe> annoying part of the whole mess is only a few minutes at the beginning of a cycle does it even need 40A. When just the blowers are running its maybe 5A
2023-02-09T23:38:42 < BrainDamage> rustyaxe: lead acid battery?
2023-02-09T23:39:43 < BrainDamage> you can get 50A sustained for few minutes from a 12V battery
2023-02-09T23:40:04 < kaki> you can get used server psu for the same price than 12V battery
2023-02-09T23:40:36 < kaki> battery is a service item for certain
2023-02-09T23:40:46 < kaki> idk what you doing though
2023-02-09T23:41:00 < rustyaxe> setting up a diesel heater for winter time backup heating
2023-02-09T23:41:18 < zyp> karlp, use «enum class» to make it a scoped enum
2023-02-09T23:41:29 < zyp> but it'll still end up in whatever namespace you declare it in
2023-02-09T23:41:42 < zyp> I mean
2023-02-09T23:42:06 < zyp> you get something like PWM.DataBits::Eight, if that's even valid syntax
2023-02-09T23:43:36 < kaki> rustyaxe: webasto for your house?
2023-02-09T23:43:55 < zyp> not entirely sure what's the best way to go about it, but looking from a user perspective they should probably be put in some sort of namespaces so they can be kept short without crashing, and then the user can do «using» statements to get shorthand forms of the relevant enums
2023-02-09T23:45:07 < karlp> yeah, enum class doesn't work. I can't find any syntax to get the user side to work there.  I'll have to think more about it,
2023-02-09T23:45:19 < kaki> rustyaxe: isn't it winter already?
2023-02-09T23:45:24 < kaki> or almost summer
2023-02-09T23:45:34 < karlp> the interrupt::irq:: stuff is fine, but it's namespaced out, I guess I just need to put the enum elsewhere, it doesn't need to be inside the class I guess?
2023-02-09T23:45:43 < zyp> karlp, you might have to write CH58x_PWM_t::DataBits::Eight, which is entirely unusable
2023-02-09T23:45:48 < zyp> yeah
2023-02-09T23:46:05 < zyp> laks overall needs a better namespace policy
2023-02-09T23:46:06 < rustyaxe> kaki: still ... 3 months we can dip below 0F left
2023-02-09T23:46:13 < zyp> or a namespace policy at all really
2023-02-09T23:46:36 < kaki> rustyaxe: true
2023-02-09T23:46:43 < kaki> what is your primary heating?
2023-02-09T23:46:49 < rustyaxe> normally i drain my water lines before i leave more than overnight if its supposed to get freezing. I've lived in third world countries with more reliable power grid
2023-02-09T23:47:05 < zyp> I've been thinking I might do that as part of transitioning to modules, because it seems fairly reasonable to use a namespace per module
2023-02-09T23:47:20 < kaki> rustyaxe: you have lived abroad?
2023-02-09T23:47:21 < rustyaxe> kaki: heat pump and gas furnace, which need quite a lot of elctricity
2023-02-09T23:47:42 < kaki> ah
2023-02-09T23:47:47 < kaki> BBL>
2023-02-09T23:47:49 < rustyaxe> spark ignition would draw considerably less power there, but sadly thats not how it works anymore
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2023-02-10T01:17:21 < fenugrec> USB sucks, windows sucks, winusb and libusb suck
2023-02-10T01:19:22 < fenugrec> want more than 1 transfer per USB frame ? no prob, I'll just write this complex thread-safe async code, queue a bunch of URBs in parallel, and... nope.
2023-02-10T01:20:14 < zyp> no?
2023-02-10T01:20:19 < zyp> worksforme.
2023-02-10T01:20:27 < fenugrec> What's that - I should be padding packets to wMaxPacketSize ? no prob, got a flag all ready for that. Throughput : 1ms per transfer
2023-02-10T01:20:53 < zyp> you're doing FS?
2023-02-10T01:20:55 < fenugrec> yes
2023-02-10T01:21:09 < zyp> bulk, I assume?
2023-02-10T01:21:26 < fenugrec> device can do > 18k transfers per sec on linux. Bulk endpoint, nothing fancy
2023-02-10T01:21:56 < zyp> that sounds about right, IIRC theoretical max is 19k 64B packets per second on FS
2023-02-10T01:22:19 < fenugrec> that's what I figure too. So I don't suspect device-side issues here
2023-02-10T01:22:42 < zyp> how big are your URBs?
2023-02-10T01:23:37 < fenugrec> tried 32-bytes (maxpacketsize) and the nominal 24-bytes that makes sense in this context (CAN frames with a wrapper)
2023-02-10T01:23:45 < zyp> wait wait wait
2023-02-10T01:24:01 < fenugrec> queued 30 URBs arbitrarily
2023-02-10T01:24:05 < zyp> hmm, was 32 a valid MPS for FS bulk?
2023-02-10T01:24:17 < fenugrec> mmmmmm
2023-02-10T01:24:45 < fenugrec> does Win have issues with <64B MPS where linux doesn't ? 
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2023-02-10T01:25:25 < fenugrec> "All Host Controllers are required to have support for 8-, 16-, 32-, and 64-byte maximum data payload sizes for full-speed control endpoints"
2023-02-10T01:25:25 < zyp> dunno, but ok, it's valid
2023-02-10T01:25:38 < zyp> that's control, but 5.8.3 says basically the same
2023-02-10T01:25:48 < fenugrec> right
2023-02-10T01:26:41 < zyp> but anyway, if you're okay padding everything to MPS, can't you just make the URBs a multiple of that?
2023-02-10T01:27:47 < fenugrec> I set URB_length == MPS == 32
2023-02-10T01:27:50 < fenugrec> if that's what you mean
2023-02-10T01:27:56 < zyp> you can submit a transfer with a reasonable timeout and it'll either complete when full or time out with partial data
2023-02-10T01:28:29 < zyp> yeah, that's what I'm suggesting not to do
2023-02-10T01:29:02 < zyp> you get way too much overhead in the host stack that way
2023-02-10T01:31:14 < fenugrec> isn't is supposed to be designed for just that ? with 'overlapped' URBs on win*, in this case ? I have trouble believing the host stack can't handle 1kHz of URBs
2023-02-10T01:31:58 < zyp> have you considered trying the other drivers? maybe it's a winusb limitation
2023-02-10T01:32:21 < zyp> libusb transparently works with winusb, libusbk and libusb0 or whatever the third one was called
2023-02-10T01:32:41 < zyp> just rebind it with zadig and check if performance changes
2023-02-10T01:33:54 < zyp> if you're getting exactly 1kHz, it sounds like it's only doing one per frame
2023-02-10T01:34:23 < zyp> making each large enough to grab one frame's worth of packets would sort that then
2023-02-10T01:35:14 < zyp> I just checked orbuculum, we're submitting 256k URBs, i.e. large enough to fit 512x512B packets each :p
2023-02-10T01:35:18 < fenugrec> good point, will try a different backend.
2023-02-10T01:35:32 < fenugrec> on FS ? that's ... a lot of URBs
2023-02-10T01:35:37 < zyp> no, HS
2023-02-10T01:35:51 < fenugrec> still a lot !
2023-02-10T01:35:54 < fenugrec> with libusb ?
2023-02-10T01:35:59 < zyp> yeah
2023-02-10T01:36:35 < fenugrec> are you using "bulk streams" ? no idea what those are for, not super documented
2023-02-10T01:36:44 < zyp> what's that?
2023-02-10T01:37:18 < fenugrec> libusb_fill_bulk_stream_transfer() https://libusb.sourceforge.io/api-1.0/group__libusb__asyncio.html#gac2e84d8fb9218d3c67e6a4fd4ade5b10
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2023-02-10T01:37:36 < zyp> hmm, no idea
2023-02-10T01:38:06 < zyp> also, sorry, I didn't mean number of URBs, but 256kB large URBs
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2023-02-10T01:38:24 < zyp> hence the 512x512B figure
2023-02-10T01:38:35 < fenugrec> ah
2023-02-10T01:38:37 < zyp> 512 packets go into each URB
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2023-02-10T01:38:45 < fenugrec> makes sense, couldn't figure why so many
2023-02-10T01:39:29 < zyp> so each URB is about five milliseconds worth at max throughput
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2023-02-10T01:41:01 < zyp> hmm, and we're submitting 32 URBs
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2023-02-10T01:41:24 < fenugrec> heh, I''m submitting 32 as well - just seemed like a reasonable number
2023-02-10T01:41:43 < zyp> you could do way less if you just made them larger
2023-02-10T01:42:50 < fenugrec> yes - a bit annoying that if I just get one frame, I rely on a timeout to force incomplete transfer completion, but in this case it just adds a bit of latency at the upper level which is not critical.
2023-02-10T01:43:10 < fenugrec> Kinda wanted to avoid writing de-serializing code but I can probably handle that
2023-02-10T01:44:18 < zyp> instead of a host side latency, you could emit a ZLP from the device
2023-02-10T01:44:30 < zyp> host side timeout*
2023-02-10T01:45:04 < zyp> host side timeout counts from beginning of transfer to end, so it'd need to be reasonably long to allow it to fill up
2023-02-10T01:45:19 < zyp> but a ZLP timeout on the device side could count from the end of last packet
2023-02-10T01:45:37 < fenugrec> I could just set a silly timeout of 2ms to ensure I get one callback (empty or partial, doesn't matter) per frame
2023-02-10T01:46:03 < zyp> i.e. if a millisecond has elapsed since the last packet, emit a ZLP
2023-02-10T01:46:07 < fenugrec> yea, firmware isn't quite ready for ZLP stuff yet. Would probably need work in the linux gs_usb driver as well
2023-02-10T01:47:13 < zyp> «de-serializing»
2023-02-10T01:47:50 < zyp> it's literally for(int offset = 0; offset < len; offset += 32) { process(buf + offset); }
2023-02-10T01:48:31 < fenugrec> need to handle padded/non-padded case, incomplete trailing bytes...
2023-02-10T01:48:51 < zyp> just pad everything to 32B and call it a day
2023-02-10T01:49:05 < fenugrec> that breaks linux IIRC P)
2023-02-10T01:49:48 < zyp> I'm sure you save more on host overhead than you lose on padding overhead
2023-02-10T01:50:06 < zyp> but yeah, changing the protocol only works if you control both sides :p
2023-02-10T01:50:41 < fenugrec> dunno, a 33% overhead is substantial
2023-02-10T01:51:03 < fenugrec> well, not 33%, I'm not counting USB overhead
2023-02-10T01:52:12 < zyp> this is CAN, right?
2023-02-10T01:52:25 < fenugrec> yeap
2023-02-10T01:52:32 < zyp> going by the packet sizes, I assume it's not CAN-FD
2023-02-10T01:52:36 < fenugrec> straight CAN for now, no CANFD
2023-02-10T01:52:42 < zyp> which means you're limited to 1Mb/s or so
2023-02-10T01:53:00 < b-rex> https://www.twitch.tv/xartet
2023-02-10T01:53:42 < zyp> I don't think a 33% overhead matters when you're putting it on an interface an order of magnitude faster
2023-02-10T01:54:30 < zyp> I mean, until you start pushing short address frames with zero payload back to back
2023-02-10T01:56:03 < fenugrec> that is true
2023-02-10T01:56:44 < zyp> but still, a minimum CAN frame is 48b, so even worst case is 5.3x amplification
2023-02-10T01:57:11 < zyp> still well within what USB FS will do unless you crowd a shared TT
2023-02-10T01:59:41 < zyp> on the other hand, if your wrapper is always 24B, you might as well just pack them at 24B intervals
2023-02-10T02:00:34 < zyp> in which case I'd send them as 64B packets, again with a flush timeout that always ends a transfer with a short packet or ZLP
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2023-02-10T02:01:27 < zyp> and pick a transfer size that's a multiple of both 64 and 24
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2023-02-10T02:02:58 < fenugrec> hmm
2023-02-10T02:04:48 < fenugrec> (yea just validated I can at least 18300 canframes/sec on linux; IIRC starting to run into stm32f0 performance limitations)
2023-02-10T02:06:03 < fenugrec> those are good things for future improvement but really hoping not to have to go there
2023-02-10T02:13:19 < fenugrec> bleh, the naive test to just zadig -> associate with libusb / libusbk just gives me segfaults
2023-02-10T02:23:31 < machinehum> What's a normal temp or fets to run at
2023-02-10T02:23:41 < machinehum> Like generally
2023-02-10T02:29:35 < machinehum> Is 80C crazy
2023-02-10T02:30:32 < machinehum> I feel like 80C is alright
2023-02-10T02:33:18 < BrainDamage> it's fine, fets' resistance goes up with temperature, so no thermal runaway
2023-02-10T02:33:31 < BrainDamage> even 120°C is fine
2023-02-10T02:34:14 < BrainDamage> more and you'll be pushing the envelope of the package, because you measure the external temp and not the internal
2023-02-10T02:34:41 < BrainDamage> past 150-170°C, the bondings wires start to dig into the pins, and the transistor goes kaput, but that's internal temp
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2023-02-10T03:01:16 < machinehum> Doesn't the resitance going up cause thermal runaway?
2023-02-10T03:11:18 < kaki> is voltage is constant - no
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2023-02-10T04:22:37 < fenugrec> mosfets in parallel - risky without an extra source resistor
2023-02-10T04:23:27 < fenugrec> if you're measuring case temp, need to add RthetaJ-C
2023-02-10T04:23:30 < fenugrec> ofc
2023-02-10T04:24:12 < fenugrec> Damn, sold some old electronic junk on ebay in 2 days ? should've asked way more
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2023-02-10T04:25:16 < fenugrec> among other things, a pair of 6146 vacuum toobz, dated 1952
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2023-02-10T10:48:44 < mrec> did anyone use quadrature encoder feature of the stm32? I wonder it only detects the rising edge of one channel here, interestingly it can handle the direction 
2023-02-10T10:52:38 < jpa-> how have you determined it does so? what stm32 model? which timer? what values for the config registers?
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2023-02-10T10:54:34 < jpa-> what you describe sounds like encoder mode 1 or 2, while encoder mode 3 is the one that reacts to edges on both channels
2023-02-10T10:56:37 < benishor> gah ... trying to synchronize i2s and usb is killing me slowly
2023-02-10T10:57:02 < benishor> not sure what I'm doing wrong
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2023-02-10T11:16:01 < benishor> finally got it
2023-02-10T11:17:31 < mrec> jpa-: I'm reading the counter register
2023-02-10T11:17:38 < mrec> benishor: which stm32 do you use for i2s?
2023-02-10T11:17:58 < karlp> fenugrec: I do seem to recall hearing at one point that despite 8/16/32 being supported, actually trying to use them was incredibly frought with danger, especially on windows.  I think I got some cult wisdom of "always 64, don't even try anything else"
2023-02-10T11:17:58 < mawk> I have a bunch of police radios
2023-02-10T11:18:02 < mawk> can I sell them 
2023-02-10T11:18:16 < benishor> mrec: stm32h7
2023-02-10T11:18:25 < benishor> using SAI
2023-02-10T11:18:33 < mrec> I used the stm32f0/l0 for i2s they're okay
2023-02-10T11:18:57 < mrec> but don't put too much stress on those parts otherwise they'll get into trouble
2023-02-10T11:19:17 < mrec> eg. mess up the usb protocol
2023-02-10T11:22:56 < benishor> I had some buffered streams from/to the usb
2023-02-10T11:23:00 < benishor> increasing latency, ofc
2023-02-10T11:23:09 < benishor> but I had some problems with concurrency
2023-02-10T11:24:01 < mrec> some or one?
2023-02-10T11:24:02 < karlp> mrec: what does "too much stress" mean ?
2023-02-10T11:24:21 < mrec> customizing the protocol to do some chip setup via usb for example
2023-02-10T11:24:44 < mrec> it cannot handle the load well I debugged the usb protocol back then and some parts were missing
2023-02-10T11:24:52 < karlp> which stack?
2023-02-10T11:25:08 < mawk> ré
2023-02-10T11:25:10 < mawk> oops
2023-02-10T11:25:38 < mrec> I used HAL but went down to the registers, I think there were some bugs which had to be fixed (that was years ago)
2023-02-10T11:25:54 < mrec> the stm32f4 which I had was always okay and never had any issues with it
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2023-02-10T11:26:23 < mrec> stm32f0/l0 can cause some issues possibly some interrupt issues
2023-02-10T11:26:30 < mawk> if you like registers there is LL instead of HAL
2023-02-10T11:27:00 < jpa-> mrec: sounds like "i had a bug that i couldn't find so i'm blaming the hardware"
2023-02-10T11:27:03 < mrec> I think it's interrupt issues that it didn't receive everything
2023-02-10T11:27:17 < karlp> yeah, it's kinda a bit vague to feel more than anecdotal right now.
2023-02-10T11:27:38 < mrec> I spent quite some time on it I doubt it's the configuration. I also contacted STM about that issue they just recommended to use a faster chip
2023-02-10T11:28:12 < mrec> I managed to get it work with my application so there was no need for further work
2023-02-10T11:28:27 < mrec> I'm just not stressing it too much, not too many transactions.
2023-02-10T11:29:15 < mrec> i2s itself was flawless just mixing i2s and many control transfers(eg firmware uploading) was the issue
2023-02-10T11:29:45 < mrec> so I just put the firmware onto a flash chip and loaded it from there without the stm32
2023-02-10T11:32:12 < benishor> I have a mix of tinyUSB for audio input/output + 2x CDC serials and 2x SAIs talking to two codecs
2023-02-10T11:33:00 < benishor> and I had some glitches whenever I would stream audio from the pc, process it in the SAI/I2S transfer callback handler and route it back to USB
2023-02-10T11:33:13 < mrec> anyway that's not my problem now, my current problem is I can't get the quadrature encoder work of the stm32l0 while up/down counting works (the direction), only the rising edge of one channel seems to be taken
2023-02-10T11:33:30 < karlp> you should reply to jpa then :)
2023-02-10T11:33:39 < benishor> it turns out it was my fault. my implementation of the ring buffer which kept being modified from two sides (usb callbacks and i2s callbacks)
2023-02-10T11:33:47 < mrec> karlp: I did?
2023-02-10T11:34:12 < benishor> mrec: used HAL to configure encoder mode and made a small demo?
2023-02-10T11:34:41 < benishor> I "solved" my problem by disabling interrupts during the USB read callback
2023-02-10T11:35:03 < mrec> jpa-: I'm using hal TIM_ENCODERMODE_TI12 (SMS? = 0111)
2023-02-10T11:35:09 < karlp> couldn't kill your baby and get a better ring buffer? :)
2023-02-10T11:35:31 < benishor> karlp: have one to share? :)
2023-02-10T11:35:43 < karlp> etl has a circular_buffer? :)
2023-02-10T11:36:00 < benishor> never used etl. is it heavy?
2023-02-10T11:36:11 < benishor> I'm not doing too well on code space
2023-02-10T11:36:28 < mrec> I need to double check that SMS stuff..
2023-02-10T11:36:31 < karlp> I'm not being helpful :)
2023-02-10T11:36:51 < karlp> in other news, ST has started shipping nucleos in cardboard boxes, which is presumably far more recylable than the blister packs.
2023-02-10T11:37:02 < karlp> so mouser has helpfully wrapped it in a mountain of plastic again for me...
2023-02-10T11:37:12 < benishor> yey
2023-02-10T11:37:14 < jpa-> mrec: yeah, a good first step is to compare the register values to reference manual; SMS 111 is external clock mode, not encoder mode
2023-02-10T11:38:31 < jpa-> mrec: also make sure that prescaler is at 0 and that you have generated an update event to update the shadow register
2023-02-10T11:38:49 < mrec> SMS 011
2023-02-10T11:38:54 < mrec> that's what it is set to sorry
2023-02-10T11:39:07 < mrec> I just double checked, https://blog.csdn.net/yellow_hill/article/details/102288696
2023-02-10T11:39:09 < jpa-> yeah, at least that seems correct
2023-02-10T11:39:35 < jpa-> are you seriously reading the specs from some random chinese site instead of the reference manual :D
2023-02-10T11:40:13 < karlp> hrm, great success
2023-02-10T11:40:17 < mrec> I got used to I get lots of chinese links first here in Taiwan
2023-02-10T11:40:42 < jpa-> you know that you can just   p /x *TIM1    and pastebin all the registers in one go
2023-02-10T11:40:44 < mrec> I only google'd "Encoder mode 3"
2023-02-10T11:40:47 < karlp> csdn is unusuable slow for me here. too far away I guess.
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2023-02-10T11:41:07 < jpa-> mrec: you run the risk of getting info for the wrong model that way, just download the pdf?
2023-02-10T11:42:11 < jpa-> there are subtle differences between STM32 models *and* between different timers on a single model
2023-02-10T11:43:19 < mrec> that's a good point
2023-02-10T11:46:20 < karlp> nucleo little flyer in the box has "flashs this qr code" as the instructions.
2023-02-10T11:46:34 < karlp> "flash this qr code" 
2023-02-10T11:46:38 < karlp> I wonder who copyedited that...
2023-02-10T12:04:53 < ventYl> All your bases are belong to us
2023-02-10T12:05:54 < mawk> what's wrong with that karlp 
2023-02-10T12:06:07 < karlp> must have been frenchies then....
2023-02-10T12:06:24 < karlp> flash the verb to program the flash? the qr code?
2023-02-10T12:06:35 < karlp> or flash the verb to rapidly show it to something?
2023-02-10T12:06:47 < karlp> do people say "flash this qr code" to mean scan this qr code and open the link?
2023-02-10T12:06:53 < karlp> it's certainly new to me like that.
2023-02-10T12:07:27 < ventYl> you are probably too old for this shit
2023-02-10T12:08:40 < mawk> yes it means flash the qrcode karlp 
2023-02-10T12:08:43 < mawk> scan the qrcode
2023-02-10T12:08:47 < mawk> it's how we say in french
2023-02-10T12:08:50 < benishor> flash the titties
2023-02-10T12:08:53 < mawk> lol
2023-02-10T12:08:56 < mawk> flash as in camera flash
2023-02-10T12:09:08 < mawk> snap this qrcode
2023-02-10T12:10:04 < ventYl> that must have been a machine translation
2023-02-10T12:10:13 < ventYl> usually, in english, it is used the opposite way
2023-02-10T12:10:43 < mawk> it was an english translation made by a french person
2023-02-10T12:10:45 < mawk> most likely
2023-02-10T12:10:56 < karlp> yep, that sounds like it now, htanks for your french insight :)
2023-02-10T12:12:14 < karlp> goog says "scan qr code" 650million
2023-02-10T12:12:20 < karlp> "flash qr code" 21million
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2023-02-10T12:18:19 < qyx> lol
2023-02-10T12:18:48 < qyx> a pro copywriter then
2023-02-10T12:18:54 < qyx> a current one
2023-02-10T12:20:58 < Steffanx-> mr qyx our crypto library expert. If you were to implement a "secure" bootloader. What encryption/lib would you use? Just encrypted images would work fine. 
2023-02-10T12:21:15 < jpa-> nacl
2023-02-10T12:21:29 < Steffanx-> In this case the images are transferred over CAN, but not sure that's relevant.
2023-02-10T12:22:05 < mrec> jpa-: oh everything works... very stupid mistake from my side.... the debug print was wrong the value was correct
2023-02-10T12:22:10 < jpa-> https://doc.libsodium.org/
2023-02-10T12:22:15 < mawk> KCl is better for hypertension
2023-02-10T12:22:35 < mawk> it runs in my family
2023-02-10T12:22:46 < jpa-> though i guess there are better variants for embedded, like https://munacl.cryptojedi.org/faq.shtml
2023-02-10T12:23:58 < Steffanx-> Yeah i was looking into NaCl and came across those. But since mr qyx posts some posts about this once in a while I was going for some extra input. :)
2023-02-10T12:24:02 < mawk> >At the moment the μNaCl project has support only for AVR ATmega.
2023-02-10T12:24:15 < mawk> too bad
2023-02-10T12:25:14 < Steffanx-> Ofcourse there is X-CUBE-CRYPTOLIB \o/
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2023-02-10T12:26:14 < mawk> just use openssl like everyone else
2023-02-10T12:26:46 < Steffanx-> on my poor stm32f0
2023-02-10T12:26:48 < qyx> Steffanx-: what footprint, speed?
2023-02-10T12:27:45 < qyx> do youneedencryption to protect your IP or just integrity checking/signing to be sure the images are the right ones?
2023-02-10T12:28:37 < Steffanx-> IP Protection, speed is not really relevant, few K RAM few, 10s of K flash is no issue. 
2023-02-10T12:28:47 < ventYl> do it the Volkswagen way. XOR 0xAA55AA55AA55, checksum and call it a day
2023-02-10T12:28:51 < Steffanx-> -few
2023-02-10T12:28:59 < ventYl> eventually use 0x12345678 as password
2023-02-10T12:30:10 < qyx> Steffanx-: if your end device is physically accessible, you need a secure storage for the decryption key, so your algos may be limited
2023-02-10T12:30:20 < qyx> nacl variants are good
2023-02-10T12:30:36 < qyx> even the reference implementation fits
2023-02-10T12:30:53 < qyx> for small code size (and lower speed) check tweetnacl
2023-02-10T12:31:15 < karlp> mrec: oops :) always annoying when things like that happen :|
2023-02-10T12:31:20 < Steffanx-> Yeah they'll totally be physically accessible. It might be harder to access due to potting etc, but not impossible.
2023-02-10T12:31:59 < Steffanx-> I know a fellow ##stm32 guy that likes to remove potting to resolder things.
2023-02-10T12:32:21 < mrec> >>2 instead of >>1
2023-02-10T12:32:24 < qyx> I have never actually considered a threat model for stealing an IP
2023-02-10T12:32:44 < qyx> probably atsha204 may fit for the key, or atecc608
2023-02-10T12:32:46 < mrec> quadrature encoder is useless for that encoder anyway just counting one channel 2x is the same from the pulse count
2023-02-10T12:33:02 < mrec> 4x is just useful for the direction
2023-02-10T12:33:39 < qyx> distribute a nonce with your firmware, atsha does HMAC with the saved key, the resultis the decryption key
2023-02-10T12:33:47 < qyx> or any other suitable KDF
2023-02-10T12:34:41 < Steffanx-> Although it this case im really wondering if IP theft is really an issue here. If someone wants to go through the effort of cracking it.. then the person is probably capable enough to write it all as well.
2023-02-10T12:34:55 < qyx> but this still means you can grab the decrypted key on the i2c bus
2023-02-10T12:35:40 < qyx> your target should support secure bootloading
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2023-02-10T12:38:29 < Steffanx-> I dont have to store keys externally. Decrypting on the fly and flashing would work fine.
2023-02-10T12:39:03 < qyx> decrypting with what
2023-02-10T12:39:22 < benishor> key(s)
2023-02-10T12:39:28 < benishor> lol
2023-02-10T12:39:29 < Steffanx-> Whatever algorithm i will use
2023-02-10T12:39:40 < qyx> and where is your key saved
2023-02-10T12:39:42 < benishor> it's either symmetric or assymetric
2023-02-10T12:39:48 < benishor> and you still need keys for those
2023-02-10T12:40:05 < benishor> no matter what you do, you will need to store it somehow
2023-02-10T12:40:16 < benishor> either that or provision it on start
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2023-02-10T12:40:21 < Steffanx-> Yes inside flash wouldn't be a huge issue.
2023-02-10T12:40:38 < qyx> oh you should have said that first
2023-02-10T12:40:45 < Steffanx-> haha alrighty :P
2023-02-10T12:41:27 < qyx> blake2s in a stream cipher mode then, 600 bytes of code, almost no ram, fast
2023-02-10T12:42:26 < qyx> if you are lazy to document it, chacha20+poly1305is a standard one
2023-02-10T12:44:08 < Steffanx-> Alright. Thanks for the pointers. :)
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2023-02-10T12:56:21 < mawk> >Sodium is developed by volunteers. We would like to especially thank the following companies and organizations for their contribution:
2023-02-10T12:56:22 < mawk> >Paragonie Initiative Enterprise, who donated a Raspberry Pi to ensure that the library works perfectly on this hardware. Thanks!
2023-02-10T12:56:24 < mawk> lol
2023-02-10T12:56:40 < mawk> these companies making a lot of money with opensource and the most they can do is donate a 30€ piece of hardware
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2023-02-10T13:03:15 < jpa-> one company once offered to donate me some hardware related to nanopb, then it turned out that their company cannot donate anything because of lawyers :D
2023-02-10T13:06:03 < zyp> the bureaucracy in large companies are crazy
2023-02-10T13:07:48 < karlp> gotta protect those jobs.
2023-02-10T13:08:08 < zyp> I had a large company contact me a few months ago to buy some orbtraces, and they had to involve a ridiculous number of people and departments on their side to get everything sorted
2023-02-10T13:08:23 < Steffanx-> So you bought it all for just 0.01 eurobucks, jpa- ?
2023-02-10T13:09:22 < jpa-> Steffanx-: i wrote an invoice for a bug fix and they paid some money
2023-02-10T13:09:34 < Steffanx-> wonderful exchange.
2023-02-10T13:09:45  * karlp , a fool, editing patches and dts files because I thought my upgrades broke another platform.
2023-02-10T13:09:45 < jpa-> better than hardware anyway, though possibly less fun
2023-02-10T13:10:01 < karlp> other people, wiser: that platform was broken already, you did't make it worse.
2023-02-10T13:10:27 < karlp> was it a playstation 4 so you could play red dead redemption?
2023-02-10T13:10:38 < karlp> rdr2 more precisely.
2023-02-10T13:10:45 < zyp> let's see, one person emailed me a quote request, another sent me a purchase order with yet another listed as responsible and yet another listed as recipient
2023-02-10T13:10:55 < Steffanx-> PS5... who wants a ps4?
2023-02-10T13:11:06 < jpa-> karlp: heh, no :)
2023-02-10T13:11:26 < karlp> well, rdr2 came out on ps4, and it had nanopb in the credits :)
2023-02-10T13:11:31 < Steffanx-> ah
2023-02-10T13:11:50 < jpa-> yeah, i was a bit surprised that i'm in game credits now
2023-02-10T13:12:34 < jpa-> i hope there is still at least 1-2 billion people on this planet who haven't been exposed to my crappy code
2023-02-10T13:13:12 < zyp> and getting my invoice paid involved email exchanges with at least three other people
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2023-02-10T13:34:24 < karlp> man, this fucking file I was trying to fix was added in 2016, as "initial support" and has never been actually used since.
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2023-02-10T14:00:33 < jadew> man... the more I use chatgpt the more terrified I am of it
2023-02-10T14:00:48 < jadew> I asked it a trick question and it answered flawlessly
2023-02-10T14:01:31 -!- akaWolf [~akaWolf@akawolf.org] has joined ##stm32
2023-02-10T14:02:46 < jpa-> it's right until it is wrong
2023-02-10T14:02:59 < jadew> same with humans
2023-02-10T14:03:09 < jadew> but it seems to be better than humans in many respects
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2023-02-10T14:03:26 < jadew> http://5.12.146.50/stuff/Screenshot%20from%202023-02-10%2014-01-49.png
2023-02-10T14:04:29 < jadew> is that not insane?
2023-02-10T14:05:21 < jpa-> it's amazing in that i couldn't have expected such AI to be available so soon - but not sure why you would be terrified
2023-02-10T14:05:27 < jadew> I better start looking for a job sweeping floors at server farms, before they're all taken
2023-02-10T14:05:45 < jpa-> how terrified are you? on the scale of [1] chinese cloning products ...  [5] covid
2023-02-10T14:05:56 < jadew> 3
2023-02-10T14:06:36 < jpa-> do you actually have problems with getting jobs? because it seems the market for programmers is still pretty warm & everyone is fully booked
2023-02-10T14:06:43 < jadew> the upside is that it can't do everything a human can at this point - like...  come up with a whole system, so there's still room for programmers
2023-02-10T14:06:52 < jadew> I'm not looking for a job, fuck that
2023-02-10T14:06:59 < jadew> :)
2023-02-10T14:07:12 < zyp> the thing chatgpt is best at is lying convincingly
2023-02-10T14:07:18 < jadew> but I like to know that I have the option
2023-02-10T14:07:46 < karlp> mansplaining as a service...
2023-02-10T14:07:57 < jadew> lol
2023-02-10T14:08:35 < jadew> that must be the funniest thing you ever said karlp 
2023-02-10T14:08:41 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/chatgpt_jobs.png  let it convince you :)
2023-02-10T14:08:50 < karlp> well, seeing as it's not my line, but someone elses, I guess I'm just not funny.
2023-02-10T14:09:29 < jadew> ah, well in that case we just know that you're not as funny as that other person, not that you're not funny
2023-02-10T14:10:19 < jadew> jpa-, that's what someone who's after your job would say
2023-02-10T14:12:57 < jadew> I would continue the final paragraph with: "That is something it is being trained to do, as it is being used by millions of developers around the world."
2023-02-10T14:13:36 < jadew> "Apprentice Bart" - google had a slip of the tongue there, the implication is that it's learning your job
2023-02-10T14:13:43 < ventYl> chatgpt can be good for rubberducking
2023-02-10T14:14:01 < ventYl> but if you use it to generate larger chunks of unique-nish code, it will fail miserably
2023-02-10T14:14:31 < jadew> ventYl, for sure, but since most developers are shit (codex is already doing better than 50% of programmers)
2023-02-10T14:14:49 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/4WokU.png
2023-02-10T14:14:53 < jadew> it's going to replace them, and even if the AI doesn't come for your job, those other developers are going to create pressure for your job
2023-02-10T14:15:01 < zyp> jadew, did your job for you
2023-02-10T14:15:06 < jadew> so one way or another, you're still going to get paid shit
2023-02-10T14:15:19 < jadew> haha zyp 
2023-02-10T14:16:19 < jadew> sounds just like me
2023-02-10T14:16:21 < jpa-> :D
2023-02-10T14:17:09 < jadew> jesus, it's like it read the chat
2023-02-10T14:17:23 < zyp> maybe you're just too predictable
2023-02-10T14:17:38 < jadew> or it's a valid concern and it told the truth
2023-02-10T14:18:04 < ventYl> jadew: well, that's something I am not that sure, will happen. very specialized AIs used for classification have bright future, but general AI replacing humans reliably will probably not be a thing for quite some time
2023-02-10T14:18:21 < ventYl> with current models, you'd need an army od people verifying the shit it generates
2023-02-10T14:18:22 < mawk> ask it how to cook meth jadew 
2023-02-10T14:18:29 < jadew> mawk, lol
2023-02-10T14:18:57 < jadew> ventYl, I don't know... it's easier to verify than to generate something
2023-02-10T14:19:12 < jadew> that's why every development team has code monkeys
2023-02-10T14:19:33 < jadew> people who are not particularly good at programming, but they do the tasks that the good developers can't be arsed with
2023-02-10T14:19:49 < jadew> AI will take those out first
2023-02-10T14:20:03 < jpa-> jadew: https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/chatgpt_sweeper.png  the problem solves itself
2023-02-10T14:20:45 < ventYl> jadew: huh, I've been part of many teams, which didn't have code monkeys. we were lean, pro and made quite incredible stuff.
2023-02-10T14:20:54 < jadew> after this I'll probably have to change my nickname, because once this turns into skynet, it will assume I'm part of the resistance
2023-02-10T14:20:59 < braindamage> nah, they'll just be replaced with AI experts that know the right flavor of incantation
2023-02-10T14:21:16 < jpa-> i've never been a part of a team that made anything incredible
2023-02-10T14:21:29 < zyp> jpa-, you just had to do it yourself?
2023-02-10T14:22:59 < jpa-> i wish :/
2023-02-10T14:23:04 < jadew> ventYl, well, most teams do work like that, because it frees up the time of the good developers
2023-02-10T14:23:13 < jadew> so you get more value out of them
2023-02-10T14:23:53 < ventYl> jadew: I get that this might be habit in "bulk software". just copy this shit for me-kind of software
2023-02-10T14:24:16 < jadew> even if they're not structured specifically like that, if you have enough people, some of them will be the designated code monkeys, simply because they lack the skill to carry the more important tasks to fruition
2023-02-10T14:25:29 < jadew> was watching a talk by a facebook developer, on bugs, and it became apparent to me that they're not hiring lots of noobs too, not just elite devs
2023-02-10T14:25:42 < jadew> *they're hiriging
2023-02-10T14:26:10 < jadew> typo on in the correction...
2023-02-10T14:26:37 < jadew> anyway, the point is that the people hanging at the bottom will be shaken out fast
2023-02-10T14:27:32 < jadew> what do I need Joe Slow for, if I can just type some comments and get the same thing done and redone however many times I want, in an instant
2023-02-10T14:27:44  * ventYl *shrugs*
2023-02-10T14:28:19 < jpa-> beginner programmers are not that invested in the career though, they get shaken out in every recession
2023-02-10T14:31:02 < ventYl> I'll let a hoard of beginner developers to do my job if they can
2023-02-10T14:31:12 < karlp> it's ok, jadew has the best temp logger, he'll always be in demand.
2023-02-10T14:31:33 < ventYl> in one case I know, that exchange ratio of rather skilled tester vs. dead cheap tester from india was 1:6
2023-02-10T14:31:47 < jadew> one day, I might just make that thing to stop the jokes
2023-02-10T14:31:54 < jadew> maybe I'll ask chatGPT to do it for me
2023-02-10T14:32:03 < Steffanx-> haha jadew 
2023-02-10T14:35:49 < jadew> ventYl, an increase in the offer is bound to lower wages, it doesn't matter if they are McDonald's employees that got fired
2023-02-10T14:36:32 < jadew> some of them will go towards electronics, others towards software
2023-02-10T14:36:46 < jadew> some might not do anything, but there's going to be pressure on all jobs
2023-02-10T14:38:04 < jadew> I think whoever is going to be caught with their pants down during this revolution, is going to stay that way
2023-02-10T14:38:14 < jadew> and by pants down, I mean poor
2023-02-10T14:42:21 < ventYl> jadew: I happen to act as a technical recruiter and I can say, that whatever the offer is, if it is of poor quality, it doesn't change anything
2023-02-10T14:42:36 < ventYl> it just increases the cost of "fair opportunity" approach
2023-02-10T14:43:41 < jadew> it changes the perceived value, so the whoever pays the bill, won't feel like you're worth as much as when there's barely anyone knocking on the door
2023-02-10T14:43:43 < ventYl> last year I conducted more than 60 interviews for just a handful of positions. some of them are still open
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2023-02-10T14:44:08 < mawk> hire me ventYl 
2023-02-10T14:44:27 < ventYl> mawk: german speaking? no? what. a. shame.
2023-02-10T14:44:38 < mawk> I was pretty good at german in school
2023-02-10T14:44:42 < mawk> if you give me a few months I can speak it
2023-02-10T14:44:45 < jadew> ventYl, I'm aware of how that works, I was also in charge of hiring programmers, but imagine that instead of 60, you have the choice to do 600
2023-02-10T14:44:58 < jadew> you'll still do 60, but you'll pick the best 60 out of those 600
2023-02-10T14:45:11 < ventYl> jadew: If I had to interview 600 mediocre developers, I would run under train
2023-02-10T14:45:22 < jadew> and they'll get paid less, because there are another 540 people waiting at the door
2023-02-10T14:46:21 < ventYl> that's what India was actually for, some companies got sober and are trying to pull out of that market and rather pay more to those few of reasonable quality
2023-02-10T14:46:43 < ventYl> mawk: how much crack can you do? this industry is a crap, you'll need piles of it
2023-02-10T14:47:28 < mawk> last time I did something that's a bit like crack I did not sleep for 8 days and ended up in a psych ward
2023-02-10T14:48:07 < ventYl> that'd be classified as work injury with lifetime compensation in germany. unsuitable
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2023-02-10T14:48:46 < jadew> no AI can replace mawk, his entire neural network is under constant change
2023-02-10T14:49:02 < mawk> lol
2023-02-10T14:50:41 < ventYl> nobody ever said that officially, but we had one tester on part-time, he was with company for many decades and suffered heart attack. rumours were case was settled as it being a stress-induced work injury and he was being compensated
2023-02-10T14:51:02 < mawk> that wouldn't work in france
2023-02-10T14:51:04 < mawk> weirdly enough
2023-02-10T14:51:09 < mawk> even though we are very protective of workers
2023-02-10T14:51:24 < mawk> you need a specifically coded disease that's linked to work
2023-02-10T14:51:46 < ventYl> maybe it wasn't entirely based on laws and it was partially a company decision
2023-02-10T14:51:50 < mawk> like asbestos or diacetyl
2023-02-10T14:51:53 < mawk> right
2023-02-10T14:52:01 < ventYl> that company had an average bus factor of 2
2023-02-10T14:52:19 < jadew> that's really good
2023-02-10T14:52:20 < ventYl> so they probably needed him to do his job for a few more decades because there was no suitable replacement
2023-02-10T14:52:42 < jadew> was it a big company?
2023-02-10T14:52:52 < ventYl> yes
2023-02-10T14:55:21 < jadew> zyp, you mentioned you outsource assembly all the time. Did you try the likes of JLC, or are you using european companies?
2023-02-10T14:55:44 < karlp> I think he was using dongs...
2023-02-10T14:55:53 < zyp> I've done jlc a couple of times, otherwise dongs and his associates
2023-02-10T14:55:54 < jadew> oh, right, I remember that
2023-02-10T14:56:00 < karlp> I'ðve been getting assembly from nextpcb for a little while now, that's worked otu fine.
2023-02-10T14:56:02 < jadew> I see
2023-02-10T14:56:36 < zyp> this is the last thing I did, got it assembled at jlc: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/pmULQ.jpg
2023-02-10T14:56:37 < karlp> I hear pcbway does it now too.
2023-02-10T14:57:02 < zyp> this is also jlc: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/KGt6O.jpg
2023-02-10T14:57:33 < jadew> is the soldermask quality better when you're doing assembly too?
2023-02-10T14:57:51 < jadew> if you just get the boards it's a little random
2023-02-10T14:57:54 < karlp> what?
2023-02-10T14:58:01 < zyp> soldermask or silk?
2023-02-10T14:58:08 < jadew> soldermask (the green stuff)
2023-02-10T14:58:16 < jadew> can be scratched or very dirty at times
2023-02-10T14:58:28 < zyp> no idea, never had an issue with that
2023-02-10T14:58:28 < jadew> those were my only issues with JLC so far
2023-02-10T14:59:04 < jadew> it looks very good
2023-02-10T14:59:06 < zyp> another pic of that board: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/yRYjM.JPG
2023-02-10T14:59:17 < zyp> passives are 0402
2023-02-10T14:59:28 < jadew> nice
2023-02-10T14:59:49 < jadew> I stopped manufacturing my products... too much of a hassle
2023-02-10T15:00:28 < jadew> so at this point I don't mind if they get cloned (I wish they didn't), but I don't mind as much as before, because I don't want to make them anyway
2023-02-10T15:01:04 < jadew> karlp, did you use JLC too? or just nextpcb?
2023-02-10T15:01:12 < karlp> we've got dfn1210 p=0.3mm parts and a few 0.4mm and a pile of 0402 that nextpcb assembled no problems.
2023-02-10T15:01:46 < karlp> I've doe things with jlc that they could do, and been happy
2023-02-10T15:01:58 < karlp> they made my latest hub project, 
2023-02-10T15:02:05 < karlp> assembled and shipped and all beautifully done.
2023-02-10T15:02:07 < jadew> oh, nextpcb has better capabilities?
2023-02-10T15:02:14 < karlp> nextpcb has _different_ capabilities
2023-02-10T15:02:20 < jadew> I see
2023-02-10T15:02:29 < jadew> will have to check it out, thanks
2023-02-10T15:02:45 < karlp> it's not as fast or as automated, it's more human in the loop than jlc.
2023-02-10T15:02:53 < karlp> but it's more flexible on some things because of that.
2023-02-10T15:03:00 < jadew> makes sense
2023-02-10T15:03:15 < zyp> I like the automated stuff of jlc
2023-02-10T15:03:18 < karlp> though jlc lets you order parts elsewhere in advance now and put them in your "parts library"
2023-02-10T15:03:26 < zyp> yeah, I did that
2023-02-10T15:03:35 < karlp> doesn't always work out though :)
2023-02-10T15:03:49 < karlp> but yeah, I'd probably use jlc if they could make me thicker pcbs.
2023-02-10T15:03:50 < jadew> I have a shielding can that might need careful hand placement, you think that's doable?
2023-02-10T15:04:03 < karlp> you can always ask.
2023-02-10T15:04:09 < jadew> right
2023-02-10T15:04:16 < karlp> that's one thing you get with a human in the loop like that.
2023-02-10T15:04:37 < karlp> it's a _little_ hard getting concrete, "what can do I to make this cheaper for you?" out of them,
2023-02-10T15:04:48 < karlp> they normally just say "we do anything, we'll calculate price"
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2023-02-10T16:00:29 < fenugrec> karlp, I also have a vague notion that < 64B MPS on win* can be dicy, but couldn't find any info about that. Have a few things to try before that though
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2023-02-10T16:39:53 < benishor> I've been doing jlcpcb and aisler
2023-02-10T16:40:01 < benishor> aisler sucks cock bigtime compared to jlcpcb
2023-02-10T16:40:05 < jadew> assembly?
2023-02-10T16:40:14 < benishor> assembly only on jlcpcb
2023-02-10T16:40:18 < jadew> I see
2023-02-10T16:40:24 < benishor> I've had silkscreen problems with aisler
2023-02-10T16:41:09 < karlp> aisler sucks because they refuse to have a fucking shopping cart, promising "don't worry, we'll batch orders properly" and then they don't. so you pay import handling charges multiple times...
2023-02-10T16:41:20 < benishor> funny thing is jlcpcb was always cheaper *and* faster than aisler
2023-02-10T16:41:20 < karlp> it's a little too tech bro for me.
2023-02-10T16:41:35 < karlp> yeah, aisler's "european business days" counting is kinda slow in reality
2023-02-10T16:41:44 < benishor> I usually tend to give aisler a chance every couple of months because I want to believe there's an european fab house I can rely on
2023-02-10T16:41:46 < benishor> but oh man
2023-02-10T16:42:02 < karlp> "please stop sending us gerbers, we want your kicad files!" "no."
2023-02-10T16:42:21 < karlp> "oh, we detected a short between vcc and ground"  "no you didn't. stop making shit up"
2023-02-10T16:42:39 < benishor> hahah, you've got that type of a dialogue, karlp?
2023-02-10T16:43:16 < jpa-> aisler works fine for me
2023-02-10T16:43:52 < karlp> what I _like_ about aisler is taht they mark the stencils with the pcb board names from your own files.
2023-02-10T16:43:56 < karlp> that's a _really_ nice touch
2023-02-10T16:44:17 < karlp> now, at home stencilling still sucks monkey balls, so whatever
2023-02-10T16:44:28 < benishor> jpa-: what's the reason you choose aisler for?
2023-02-10T16:45:09 < jpa-> don't have to deal with import stuff & ships cheaper to me
2023-02-10T16:45:44 < benishor> I never had a problem with jlcpcb import stuff
2023-02-10T16:45:55 < benishor> they don't even reach the customs
2023-02-10T16:46:06 < benishor> I always choose europacket delivery so maybe that's why
2023-02-10T16:46:22 < benishor> as for price, aisler never made it at least as cheap as jlcpcb
2023-02-10T16:46:26 < jpa-> should probably try that, i've been using dhl or fedex
2023-02-10T16:46:31 < benishor> nonono
2023-02-10T16:46:32 < benishor> big mistake
2023-02-10T16:46:36 < benishor> fuck dhl in their arse
2023-02-10T16:46:47 < benishor> try europacket next time, much cheaper
2023-02-10T16:46:47 < karlp> aisler is promising some major changes on price front this year apparently.
2023-02-10T16:46:57 < karlp> if you have a europacket option.
2023-02-10T16:47:15 < jpa-> the aisler prices after 2022 changes have been fine for me
2023-02-10T16:47:15 < karlp> that's the worst thing with jlc for me, ~24 usd shipping, best possible option, no matter what.
2023-02-10T16:50:55 < Mangy_Dog> ok sooo theres a PY32 mcu thats super cheap... SOP8 6 GPIO... 2 can be xtal 2 can be sdi/swd
2023-02-10T16:51:11 < Mangy_Dog> assuming it has an internal clock option! 
2023-02-10T16:51:23 < Mangy_Dog> that means i could use 6 of the GPIO as ... well GPIO.
2023-02-10T16:51:29 < zyp> every modern mcu does
2023-02-10T16:51:46 < Mangy_Dog> the programming pins can swap round from program mode at boot up right? as long as its being caught at reset?
2023-02-10T16:52:02 < zyp> usually, yes
2023-02-10T16:52:19 < Mangy_Dog> im still trhinking about that tiny little led chaser
2023-02-10T16:52:24 < Mangy_Dog> wanting to use a cheap mcu for it
2023-02-10T16:52:30 < Mangy_Dog> this thing is a few cents per ic 
2023-02-10T16:52:52 < zyp> are you gonna use a mcu per led?
2023-02-10T16:53:45 < Mangy_Dog> no
2023-02-10T16:53:51 < Mangy_Dog> just 5 or 6 leds
2023-02-10T16:53:58 < Mangy_Dog> one per gpio
2023-02-10T16:54:09 < PaulFertser> https://www.cnx-software.com/2023/02/09/8-cents-for-an-arm-cortex-m0-microcontroller-meet-puya-py32-series-mcus/ wasn't discussed here yet?
2023-02-10T16:55:27 < PaulFertser> "4/24MHz RC (HSI)"
2023-02-10T16:55:28 < Mangy_Dog> lol
2023-02-10T16:55:32 < Mangy_Dog> i didnt see that page
2023-02-10T16:55:39 < Mangy_Dog> i only just saw the micro on a tweet
2023-02-10T16:55:46 < Mangy_Dog> some one ge3tting 50 chips for 6 dollars
2023-02-10T16:56:25 < karlp> https://jaycarlson.net/2023/02/04/the-cheapest-flash-microcontroller-you-can-buy-is-actually-an-arm-cortex-m0/ is somewhat more useful as they use it.
2023-02-10T16:57:45 < Mangy_Dog> one downside... (maybe) cube wont like it :p and questionable locm4 suport
2023-02-10T16:57:50 < Mangy_Dog> how would i build on it? :p
2023-02-10T16:58:34 < karlp> yes, you should actualyl consider developer time, not just silicon cost.
2023-02-10T16:58:40 < karlp> it's never stopped you before though...
2023-02-10T16:58:46 < PaulFertser> Cube isn't relevant.
2023-02-10T16:59:38 < Mangy_Dog> karlp sometimes for better.... sometimes for worse
2023-02-10T16:59:47 < Mangy_Dog> at least i usually get it done
2023-02-10T16:59:58 < fenugrec> Mangy how many of these are you building for pennies to matter
2023-02-10T17:00:12 < Mangy_Dog> the chasers? only a few
2023-02-10T17:00:15 < Mangy_Dog> nothing major
2023-02-10T17:01:16 < Mangy_Dog> and its only a led chaser in the end...
2023-02-10T17:01:21 < fenugrec> right
2023-02-10T17:01:34 < Mangy_Dog> if its possible to write directly to the gpio register... ic ould just bitbang it
2023-02-10T17:01:47 < fenugrec> seems like you've been spending days shopping for the 'perfect' mcu for that thing. Just pick one, move on
2023-02-10T17:02:04 < Mangy_Dog> i wouldnt go that far
2023-02-10T17:02:11 < Mangy_Dog> more its been in the back of my mind to keep an eye out for
2023-02-10T17:05:54 < benishor> I just checked. jlcpcb still has europacket available
2023-02-10T17:06:01 < karlp> to _you_
2023-02-10T17:06:05 < benishor> shipping + taxes equal 10eur
2023-02-10T17:06:16 < benishor> what do you mean to _me_?
2023-02-10T17:06:20 < karlp> I literalyl ordered last night.
2023-02-10T17:06:22 < benishor> aren't you in EU?
2023-02-10T17:06:34 < karlp> no, only the EEA, unfortuantely.
2023-02-10T17:06:39 < karlp> we have some lunatics here with money.
2023-02-10T17:06:49 < benishor> so it sucks to be rich
2023-02-10T17:07:08 < benishor> that's what you get for mingling with the rich :D
2023-02-10T17:07:14 < karlp> what? no, I meant fishing interests here with money heavily influence politics to keep iceland out of the eu
2023-02-10T17:07:25 < benishor> ah, you in iceland
2023-02-10T17:07:32 < Mangy_Dog> oh karlp is either in norway, or swizeland ;p
2023-02-10T17:07:35 < benishor> sorry about that, mate
2023-02-10T17:07:40 < Mangy_Dog> oh is iceland not Eu?
2023-02-10T17:07:43 < Mangy_Dog> thought it was
2023-02-10T17:07:46 < karlp> neither is switz
2023-02-10T17:07:54 < karlp> eea is iceland, norway and lichenstein
2023-02-10T17:07:55 < benishor> neither is UK :D
2023-02-10T17:08:00 < karlp> lol
2023-02-10T17:08:05 < Mangy_Dog> Uk is a fucking joke :(
2023-02-10T17:08:06 < benishor> duh
2023-02-10T17:08:13 < Mangy_Dog> were not even in the EEA
2023-02-10T17:08:44 < Mangy_Dog> still hoping we get back in within a decade
2023-02-10T17:10:06 < jadew> it depends what concessions you would have to make
2023-02-10T17:10:49 < jadew> the EU would be great if it didn't try to become the US
2023-02-10T17:10:50 < Mangy_Dog> if it involves putting farages head on a spike
2023-02-10T17:10:52 < Mangy_Dog> im all for it
2023-02-10T17:11:10 < Mangy_Dog> naa the EU is far toooo left leaning to become the us
2023-02-10T17:11:38 < jadew> the EU is left leaning too, what are you talking about?
2023-02-10T17:11:42 < jadew> they're basically commies
2023-02-10T17:11:53 < jadew> same the EU
2023-02-10T17:12:17 < Mangy_Dog> i said the EU is left... the US is far too right leaning
2023-02-10T17:12:21 < Mangy_Dog> even the democrats are right leaning
2023-02-10T17:12:43 < jadew> no they're not, neo-marxism is the main ideology in the US right now
2023-02-10T17:13:00 < Mangy_Dog> ummmm
2023-02-10T17:13:09 < Mangy_Dog> as some one not from the US... thats helerious
2023-02-10T17:13:25 < jadew> if you take 10 people and get into politics with them, 8 of them will tell you private property is theft
2023-02-10T17:16:10 < Mangy_Dog> Americas democrats are very much like UKs tories.... 10 years ago
2023-02-10T17:16:22 < Mangy_Dog> tories todays are more like your repulicans now
2023-02-10T17:16:43 < Mangy_Dog> but yeah american politics are funny... your left is still right to most of our centres this side
2023-02-10T17:18:01 < jadew> I'm not from the US, but I get your point, the UK is batshit crazy, but I don't think it's a craziness that comes from the people, but from those in power
2023-02-10T17:18:15 < jadew> because the people felt like doing something about it, and you got brexit
2023-02-10T17:18:49 < jadew> so the general population is still sane, it just can't do anything about what's happening to it
2023-02-10T17:18:53 < Mangy_Dog> brexit is nothing but a far right racist pull... that far too many flag shaggers got mixed up in
2023-02-10T17:19:17 < jadew> you mean nationalist
2023-02-10T17:19:22 < Mangy_Dog> indeed
2023-02-10T17:19:34 < jadew> that's not racist, nor bad
2023-02-10T17:19:40 < Mangy_Dog> uuuuhhh
2023-02-10T17:19:48 < Mangy_Dog> here is its fairly racist
2023-02-10T17:19:56 < Mangy_Dog> many of them want the blacks out too
2023-02-10T17:20:08 < Mangy_Dog> send them back to the carabian ect....
2023-02-10T17:20:26 < jadew> I suspect those that want the blacks out, also want the poles out, the gypsies, the romanians, etc
2023-02-10T17:20:41 < Mangy_Dog> well most of them are BNP and old NF suporters 
2023-02-10T17:21:09 < jadew> I don't know what those are
2023-02-10T17:21:14 < Mangy_Dog> most of the UKIP lot had links to the far right in the uk
2023-02-10T17:21:27 < Mangy_Dog> many of the old torys saw it was popular and jumped on it
2023-02-10T17:21:34 < Mangy_Dog> saw there was a way to make a buck out of it
2023-02-10T17:22:42 < jadew> far <whatever> movements are usually a natural occurrence when you have another far of the opposite pole
2023-02-10T17:23:07 < jadew> something polarizes the people, and both poles are idiots
2023-02-10T17:23:36 < jadew> but it's still indicative that there's an actual problem in that society (otherwise you wouldn't have that polarization)
2023-02-10T17:25:03 < jadew> I think the Brexit referendum was seen like an opportunity to do something about that thing that everyone felt but couldn't exactly put their finger on
2023-02-10T17:26:15 < jadew> it sucks from an economical POV (in the short term for sure, unclear how it's going to pan out on the long term), but at the very least it will allow the country to heal itself
2023-02-10T17:26:57 < jadew> there's no suspicion now that the EU is pulling the strings, so you get to get your shit in order
2023-02-10T17:27:27 < Mangy_Dog> oftern people forget, the member countries ARE the EU... no single place is loosing power
2023-02-10T17:27:34 < Mangy_Dog> the EU council are the member countries
2023-02-10T17:27:44 < Mangy_Dog> and the head of the EU changes periodically
2023-02-10T17:27:49 < Mangy_Dog> the UK was head of EU for a while...
2023-02-10T17:27:55 < Mangy_Dog> not sure who is the current head
2023-02-10T17:28:20 < jadew> I've never participated at a EU-wide referendum
2023-02-10T17:28:48 < jadew> nor do I get to vote on anything EU related
2023-02-10T17:30:44 < jadew> might not be THE problem people are sensing, might not even be a problem at all, but again, at least without the sense of having that invisible hand fondling with your balls, you can think straight and fix whatever needs fixing, if anything
2023-02-10T17:32:22 < karlp> I'm not at all convinced brexit will allow them to "heal" but I admire your optimism.
2023-02-10T17:35:26 < braindamage> jadew: I'm sure if you start with the premise that EU is manipulating the uk, brexit or not will be irrelevant
2023-02-10T17:35:28 < Mangy_Dog> well the Tories ran on brexit with the idea of nationalism and bringing back the old great british empire.
2023-02-10T17:35:30 < Mangy_Dog> which was all BS
2023-02-10T17:35:44 < braindamage> for one, the EU can exert massive economic pressure on the uk
2023-02-10T17:37:52 < jadew> braindamage, true, but at least it's external (to a degree)
2023-02-10T17:39:52 < braindamage> jadew: I know it's a stupidly long answer, but I'd recomend you to read https://aeon.co/essays/why-its-as-hard-to-escape-an-echo-chamber-as-it-is-to-flee-a-cult
2023-02-10T17:39:58 < braindamage> it's no black and white ofc in reality, but imo some of the tactics there were employed in the uk during the brexit referendum to sway the population
2023-02-10T17:41:48 < jadew> I'll give it a read
2023-02-10T17:48:44 < specing> brexit still went much better than sloxit
2023-02-10T17:51:22 < ventYl> sloxit?
2023-02-10T17:53:24 < braindamage> slovenian exist I guess
2023-02-10T17:53:31 < braindamage> or maybe slovakian
2023-02-10T17:53:38 < rustyaxe> only experience i've had with unions has been pretty negative -- "Hello. You can come work here" "Oh? Tell me more" ... "That sounds good" "You have to join the union" "Why?" "Because they need your money to keep up their huge building downtown and make sure the president drives a nice new f350"
2023-02-10T17:54:09 < ventYl> I am only aware of "czechxit" on some czech interwebs
2023-02-10T17:54:32 < ventYl> none of that is an actual effort
2023-02-10T17:55:35 < rustyaxe> i can imagine a country feeling similiarly "Hmm this doesnt seem like a very good deal" and walking away, yea?
2023-02-10T17:55:41 < specing> ventYl: braindamage  slovenian exit from yugoslavia
2023-02-10T17:56:14 < specing> 10 day war about a few dozen dead. Tho shit really hit the fan when others exited
2023-02-10T17:57:54 < specing> it's somewhat similar to brexit. SFR Slovenia was a huge contributor to Yugoslav budget (proportional to size/number of people)
2023-02-10T17:57:59 < ventYl> specing: ah, that
2023-02-10T17:58:24 < specing> and in return (like UK & EU), we had common market access to other republics.
2023-02-10T17:58:53 < ventYl> yes, original czechoslovakia was something like that and we separated without one bullet being fired
2023-02-10T17:58:55 < specing> so overnight we went from richest republic in Yugoslavia to poorest (I think) country in europe
2023-02-10T17:59:05 < ventYl> and more-less stayed in loose federation
2023-02-10T18:02:22 < specing> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten-Day_War
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2023-02-10T18:22:37 < mrec> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/941392620310126613/1073635831413223444/image0.jpg
2023-02-10T18:22:47 < mrec> that's the head pcb of a mechatronika pick and place machine
2023-02-10T18:23:04 < mrec> only chicken use bypass caps next to microcontrollers
2023-02-10T18:24:03 < mrec> the entire machine is failing badly for that guy :D surprise
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2023-02-10T19:10:18 < englishman> that looks like some hobby-grade stuff anyway
2023-02-10T19:10:29 < englishman> no caps on the backside?
2023-02-10T19:22:47 < mrec> http://www.mechatronia.com.pl
2023-02-10T19:22:49 < mrec> no
2023-02-10T19:22:58 < mrec> want to see their head camera?
2023-02-10T19:23:09 < mrec> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1066086566184890378/1073643620172832888/image.png
2023-02-10T19:23:30 < mrec> I also have such a machine ... they did that with mine too but I swapped the module with a chinese 10$ camera
2023-02-10T19:23:45 < mrec> the 10$ camera can set up brightness / contrast via on screen menu
2023-02-10T19:24:03 < mrec> someone from slovenia is selling such a machine for 64K EUR
2023-02-10T19:24:06 < mrec> same shit inside!
2023-02-10T19:24:52 < mrec> the owner of that machine said ... "I should not have opened that, I don't want to see that"
2023-02-10T19:28:04 < mrec> he has RS232 / uart timeouts and the machine doesn't work for him.
2023-02-10T19:28:46 < specing> loool
2023-02-10T19:29:17 < mrec> https://www.kitmondo.com/listing/used-mechatronika-mx80-pick-and-place-m-p21007030/
2023-02-10T19:29:23 < mrec> Condition: good :D
2023-02-10T19:29:42 < specing> yeah, poland is basically 3rd world.. coal burner central
2023-02-10T19:30:05 < mrec> nah it's that particular company
2023-02-10T19:31:29 -!- nerozero [~nerozero@87.253.63.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
2023-02-10T19:31:41 < aandrew> man I hate that price on request bullshit
2023-02-10T19:31:41 < karlp> oh, is that were this fucking 32k crystal can deadbugged onto the qfp comes from?
2023-02-10T19:32:10 < jadew> braindamage, got a chance to read that, it was a good analysis of the topic
2023-02-10T19:32:24 < jadew> aandrew, I want to see how much of a sucker you are first, then I'll tell you the price
2023-02-10T19:33:22 < mrec> https://i.snipboard.io/FXfbwM.jpg
2023-02-10T19:33:54 < mrec> I know that Mechatronika is shit for years and too many people are victims of this company.
2023-02-10T19:34:16 < mrec> I told the guy he can send his m10 to me I'll remove all the electronics and rebuild it
2023-02-10T19:34:22 < aandrew> that seems pretty steep for a chip shooter doing 3400cph but it does have a shitload of feeders
2023-02-10T19:34:38 < mrec> sorry I have that mx80 (used) it can do 1700 cph only
2023-02-10T19:34:38 < aandrew> I spent way too much time maintaining siplace feeders. they were pretty cool mechanically but jeez
2023-02-10T19:34:52 < mrec> I have another one and studied the machine that 65k machine is not mine
2023-02-10T19:35:15 < mrec> I rebuilt it and wrote my own software for it
2023-02-10T19:35:35 < mrec> additionally I built a second machine I'm about to put it in action in 2 weeks
2023-02-10T19:35:45 < mrec> I also cnc milled my own 8mm feeders
2023-02-10T19:36:17 < mrec> https://i.snipboard.io/B4A3VX.jpg
2023-02-10T19:38:26 < aandrew> mrec: nice, I have not attempted to make my own PNP
2023-02-10T19:38:42 < aandrew> that sounds like a pretty intense mechanical engineering undertaking
2023-02-10T19:39:17 < mrec> it is.. I learned a lot
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2023-02-10T20:36:02 < jpa-> is that a PAL camera? :D
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2023-02-10T20:52:59 < mrec> yes
2023-02-10T20:53:08 < mrec> 720x576
2023-02-10T20:54:12 < mrec> on the mx80 my problem is the low framerate + interlacing I have to wait until the picture is stable
2023-02-10T20:54:36 < mrec> I plan to replace the PNP head on my machine with 2 or possibly 4x, my DIY has 2x but is prepared for 8x heads
2023-02-10T21:04:55 < englishman> looool 64k eur
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2023-02-10T21:10:13 < mrec> https://i.snipboard.io/tOWoZY.jpg
2023-02-10T21:10:17 < mrec> this is the mx80 camera
2023-02-10T21:10:39 < jadew> looks like an improvement, I don't know why you're complaining :P
2023-02-10T21:10:40 < mrec> you need to imagine someone buying cheap cameras from china and sitting there with a cutter to bend the legs up
2023-02-10T21:11:27 < mrec> jadew: after 10 years I expect they should have experience :D so yes the wires are nicer than with the other one
2023-02-10T21:12:33 < jadew> no, I mean without the bodge, it would have been worse in some way, that's why they did it
2023-02-10T21:12:54 < jadew> or maybe they just bought it like that?
2023-02-10T21:13:15 < mrec> they bought off the shelf camera modules from china they cost like 6-7$
2023-02-10T21:13:25 < mrec> they added the wires / modified it like that
2023-02-10T21:13:33 < jadew> I see
2023-02-10T21:13:53 < mrec> the modules are absolutely okay as they are but seems like they wanted to adjust the contrast / brightness a little bit
2023-02-10T21:14:34 < mrec> the newer modules from CN support AHD (non interlaced HD video) and CVBS those settings can be adjusted via onscreen menu
2023-02-10T21:17:40 < jadew> does godbolt also run code?
2023-02-10T21:18:31 < jadew> it does
2023-02-10T21:23:02 < jadew> guess the output: https://pastebin.com/mDyu7nWq
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2023-02-10T21:34:13 < Steffanx-> 42
2023-02-10T21:34:14 < Mangy_Dog> oh good
2023-02-10T21:34:18 < Mangy_Dog> those py chips run on hal
2023-02-10T21:34:26 < Mangy_Dog> at least its accessable
2023-02-10T21:34:34 < jadew> Steffanx-, you ran the code, didn't you?
2023-02-10T21:34:43 < Steffanx-> lolno
2023-02-10T21:36:39 < Steffanx-> Ill ask your favourite chat bot
2023-02-10T21:36:58 < Steffanx-> x: 5
2023-02-10T21:36:59 < Steffanx-> 5
2023-02-10T21:37:00 < jadew> oh, didn't think of that
2023-02-10T21:37:04 < jadew> ha! he's wrong
2023-02-10T21:37:49 < Steffanx-> I told it. It corrected it to:
2023-02-10T21:37:51 < Steffanx-> x: 5
2023-02-10T21:37:52 < Steffanx-> 10
2023-02-10T21:37:56 < jadew> no way...
2023-02-10T21:38:07 < jadew> how did it correct it?
2023-02-10T21:38:15 < jadew> what did you tell it?
2023-02-10T21:38:27 < Steffanx-> https://imgur.com/a/LO2EBh4
2023-02-10T21:39:14 < jadew> haha, unbelievable
2023-02-10T21:39:58 < jadew> I like how friendly you are with it
2023-02-10T21:54:58 < jadew> this means that by default it's set to not glance over whatever we ask of it
2023-02-10T21:55:10 < jadew> but it's capable of much more than tha
2023-02-10T21:55:12 < jadew> that
2023-02-10T21:55:46 < jadew> and somehow it can crank that setting up on its own, based on your prompt
2023-02-10T21:59:33  * karlp fires up cube
2023-02-10T21:59:50 < karlp> watching it download a gig of hal shits
2023-02-10T22:00:01 < karlp> at least it's faster than st's website :)
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2023-02-10T22:19:49 < benishor> cube is like the thing everyone loves to hate but still uses
2023-02-10T22:20:20 < karlp> I'm only using the clock configurator :)
2023-02-10T22:20:24 < karlp> I'm not even generating a project
2023-02-10T22:21:37 < benishor> :P
2023-02-10T22:22:03 < qyx> six faces of cube
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2023-02-10T22:26:44 < karlp> fuyckingh7 already full of fun.
2023-02-10T22:32:11  * ventYl never actually ran Cube
2023-02-10T23:03:16 < Steffanx-> Lies
2023-02-10T23:07:58 < zyp> jadew, guess the output: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/X1DeX
2023-02-10T23:11:25  * specing never ran Cube either
2023-02-10T23:11:34 < specing> not sure if it supports Ada, anyway :P
2023-02-10T23:11:35 < Steffanx-> apparently im very convincing: https://imgur.com/a/S74NWMT
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2023-02-10T23:13:17 < Laurence_b> the absolute state of hyperloop
2023-02-10T23:13:32 < Laurence_b> >spend weeks designing new EMI filter for motors
2023-02-10T23:13:51 < Laurence_b> >hyperboss then mentions that a previous employee had come up with same design
2023-02-10T23:14:10 < Steffanx-> Didn't hyperboss go to jail?
2023-02-10T23:16:03 < Laurence_b> that was the other manager, also the police let him off with a warning as it wasnt clear what actually happened
2023-02-10T23:18:07 < specing> story time
2023-02-10T23:18:16 < specing> Laurence_b: what happened with the other hyperboss?
2023-02-10T23:19:01 < Laurence_b> he got caught by Chris Hanson impersonators
2023-02-10T23:19:02 < specing> Laurence_b: also isn't designed redundancy good? Just that they mistook that to mean multiple designs of the same thing rather than the thing being designed to be redundant.
2023-02-10T23:19:51 < Laurence_b> yeah I know, it would be one thing if they could see if I could come up with an independent design as a management strategy, but this was just due to disorganisation
2023-02-10T23:26:10 < Laurence_b> looks like motor now meets emissions regs, but it has UKP500 worth of ferrites on it
2023-02-10T23:29:08 < qyx> whay kind of motor is that
2023-02-10T23:29:24 < qyx> why does it create HF emissions?
2023-02-10T23:29:57 < qyx> I hopeit is not a brushed DC like in old trains
2023-02-10T23:36:11 < Laurence_b> nah its brushless DC, but driven with SiC IGBTs at a few kV
2023-02-10T23:36:36 < Laurence_b> 50ns rise time transitions on the PWM and unshielded cable to the motor
2023-02-10T23:37:15 < Laurence_b> s/DC/permanent magnet
2023-02-10T23:38:31 < Laurence_b> there is several nF of parasitic capacitance from the coils, so without any EMI suppression the EMI was so bad that electronics would just die anywhere near the motor
2023-02-10T23:43:30 < braindamage> how many motors do you have?
2023-02-10T23:44:29 < Laurence_b> about 4, but some are horribly broken
2023-02-10T23:44:37 < Laurence_b> one has cracked coolant galleries
2023-02-10T23:45:19 < Laurence_b> current design is:
2023-02-10T23:45:47 < karlp> anyone know a readily available stm32 board with a ulpi usbhs phy?
2023-02-10T23:47:05 < Laurence_b> DC line in -> common mode 60uH choke -> inverter -> dedicated ground braids (to 10nF cap bridge between DC rails) and 3 phase lines out > 100uH common mode choke with 50ohm load resistor on extra turn -> unshielded cable to motor with dedicated ground braids connected to core near to the coils
2023-02-10T23:48:28 < Laurence_b> turns out that putting dedicated ground braids through the 100uH common mode output choke causes return currents to preferentially pass through the braids rather than going elsewhere, especially if there is a common mode choke on the DC link input
2023-02-10T23:48:38 < Laurence_b> overall EMI reduction is over 40dB
2023-02-10T23:49:33 < braindamage> makes sense, the common mode choke forces current to be differential
2023-02-10T23:49:50 < Laurence_b> and because it uses all common mode chokes, it can handle megawatts without saturating, even with ~1.5kg of ferrite
2023-02-10T23:50:29 < braindamage> no weird induction in the close metallic parts?
2023-02-10T23:51:12 < braindamage> I'd imagine any piece of metal in close proximity would start to glow
2023-02-10T23:51:17 < Laurence_b> heh
2023-02-10T23:51:32 < Laurence_b> I havent got as far as looking at that sort of stuff yet
2023-02-10T23:51:50 < Laurence_b> boss wants to use XLPE cable, that seems unlikely to work
2023-02-10T23:51:55 < Laurence_b> using silicone atm
2023-02-10T23:51:56 < braindamage> are they mounted on a bogey?
2023-02-10T23:51:59 < Laurence_b> yes
2023-02-10T23:52:17 < Laurence_b> on SLS nylon standoff brackets
2023-02-10T23:52:54 < braindamage> having one on would probably be good enough for near field interference testing
2023-02-10T23:53:33 < braindamage> does the dc system uses the rails as ground return?
2023-02-10T23:53:38 < Laurence_b> yeah, I am only looking at >3m emissions at the moment, as thats the main regulatory requirement
2023-02-10T23:54:06 < Laurence_b> yeah, but the current version is for use on TGV, so its powered with 25kV AC
2023-02-10T23:55:08 < braindamage> out of curiosity, what's the KE of the wheel at nominal speed? aka, how much do you have to be scared of a mechanical failure?
2023-02-10T23:55:20 < Laurence_b> for conventional rail the cables need to be armoured, that is going to be fun to achieve without overheating...
2023-02-10T23:55:27 < Laurence_b> about 4MJ
2023-02-10T23:55:54 < Laurence_b> the test cell is reinforced concrete, but might not survive worst case failures
2023-02-10T23:57:39 < braindamage> how do you handle steering? do you account for differential speed in sw based off the bougey's angle or a map track?
--- Day changed la helmi 11 2023
2023-02-11T00:03:43 < Laurence_b> its a combination of angle and differential speed
2023-02-11T00:04:22 < Laurence_b> atm it doesnt work lol, my jerb it to write the codez, once the motors are finished, hopefully in next few months
2023-02-11T00:04:24 < Laurence_b> funtimes
2023-02-11T00:04:50 < Laurence_b> current plan is extended kalman filter -> modified linear quadratic regulator
2023-02-11T00:05:40 < Laurence_b> bbl
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2023-02-11T00:21:47 < aandrew> well I think I'm gonna buy that scope
2023-02-11T00:21:52 < aandrew> like 90% sure
2023-02-11T00:21:58 < aandrew> nervous about spending that kind of cash
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2023-02-11T00:39:34 < specing> which one?
2023-02-11T00:42:18 < josuah> I went for an USB-based one. Nothing in the GHz but far from terrible, and ability to take a screenshot, export, or just swap the software is kind of ok
2023-02-11T00:42:24 < josuah> large display too
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2023-02-11T01:02:57 < karlp> he's looking at this one: https://www.valuetronics.com/product/tds7154b-tektronix-digital-oscilloscope-used
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2023-02-11T01:04:06 < karlp> ok, h723 doesn't enumerate on usb yet. what's the bet I've missed a clock somewhere :)
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2023-02-11T01:10:43 < qyx> 9/10
2023-02-11T01:13:38 < karlp> ok, progress, it's attempting enumeate now but failing
2023-02-11T01:13:43 < karlp> had to properly wait for hsi48 to be on.
2023-02-11T01:15:22 < aandrew> specing: TDS7154B, 4x 500MHz passive probes, 4x2500MHz active probes, hiz modules and SMA/BNC adapters, USD$6k
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2023-02-11T01:30:36 < catphish> started doing my motor control by measuring current and adjusting 100% closed loop, it's oscillating a bit but seems to work https://openinverter.org/forum/download/file.php?id=21650&mode=view
2023-02-11T01:30:56 < catphish> i have no doubt there are ways to improve upon this
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2023-02-11T01:39:19 < karlp> meh, I've got the same clocks as cube I think. gonna have to call it a day.
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2023-02-11T02:17:38 < josuah> catphish: much interferences here? or is that the oscillation you talked about?
2023-02-11T02:18:13 < josuah> that noise-looking jitter of the signals...
2023-02-11T02:19:00 < braindamage> karlp: so you have the timings same as cube, you could say a timecube
2023-02-11T02:21:33 < catphish> josuah: that's the jitter, though now that i think about it, it could easily be a combination of the two
2023-02-11T02:24:24 < catphish> i assumed it was oscillation caused by high gain in my feedback loop
2023-02-11T02:24:36 < catphish> but it could just as easily be noise
2023-02-11T02:25:14 < catphish> will do more tests tomorrow :)
2023-02-11T02:25:15 < braindamage> can you fft those?
2023-02-11T02:25:45 < catphish> not easily
2023-02-11T02:26:05 < braindamage> is that gnuplot or matplotlib?
2023-02-11T02:26:20 < catphish> i will look at them with a proper high speed scope tomorrow though
2023-02-11T02:26:35 < catphish> the sample rate is well below the speed of the oscillation
2023-02-11T02:26:54 < catphish> so no analysis would be useful
2023-02-11T02:27:05 < braindamage> ah ok, so it's heavily aliased
2023-02-11T02:27:22 < catphish> very likely
2023-02-11T02:27:33 < catphish> though technically i can't tell
2023-02-11T02:27:52 < catphish> but the feedback loop runs at 17.6kHz and this plos is 1,000 sps
2023-02-11T02:27:57 < catphish> *plot
2023-02-11T02:28:43 < catphish> so it's nothing more than an indication that there are high frequencies > 1khz present
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2023-02-11T02:30:50 < braindamage> yeah, but at least with a scope you can rule it out
2023-02-11T02:31:03 < braindamage> unrelated: https://i.redd.it/0o81fbo6ybha1.jpg
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2023-02-11T02:32:10 < catphish> yeah scope will give me better datas
2023-02-11T02:32:18 < Laurence_b> catphish: looks like the noise on hyperloop inverter
2023-02-11T02:32:44 < Laurence_b> we lock the ADC conversions to the PWM timers but still get ripple noise that isnt real for some reason
2023-02-11T02:32:59 < Laurence_b> prob some sort of nonlinear interference on the current sensors
2023-02-11T02:33:21 < Laurence_b> we did some experiments and current sensors are vulnerable to electric fields
2023-02-11T02:33:35 < catphish> actual data points https://i.imgur.com/g9p2j8d.png
2023-02-11T02:33:45 < Laurence_b> future work is a split ring e field shield to go inside the current sensors
2023-02-11T02:34:04 < Laurence_b> heh that looks just like my raw data
2023-02-11T02:34:23 < catphish> frankly, it's good enough to make motor spin
2023-02-11T02:34:43 < catphish> but it'd be nice to improve if i can
2023-02-11T02:34:47 < Laurence_b> yeah, my noise is about 20Nm rms on a >2kN motor
2023-02-11T02:36:30 < catphish> what i'm trying to do here is form sine waves by measuring current and modifying PWM output in response
2023-02-11T02:36:58 < catphish> i was worried this appoach might be too slow, but it appears to work when run at 16kHz
2023-02-11T02:37:41 < Laurence_b> my loop runs at 12.5kHz, PWM is at 25kHz, electrical frequency is <600Hz
2023-02-11T02:39:32 < catphish> my loop is 17.6kHz, PWM is 17.6kHz, electrical frequency is <600Hz
2023-02-11T02:39:52 < Laurence_b> ok, sounds reasonable
2023-02-11T02:40:30 < Laurence_b> I set PID current controller loop bandwidth to about 250Hz, so as speed increases it cant track the current properly any more
2023-02-11T02:40:57 < Laurence_b> I've added harmonic cancellers to account for motor harmonics, maybe not an issue with induction motors
2023-02-11T02:41:50 < Laurence_b> there is no dead time compensation in my code atm, so it gets a bit non sinusoidal at medium speeds but low torque
2023-02-11T02:41:52 < catphish> i have harmonics, but they only bother me at low speeds (<10Hz)
2023-02-11T02:42:02 < Laurence_b> interesting
2023-02-11T02:42:22 < catphish> above that i guess they mechanically dampened
2023-02-11T02:42:59 < Laurence_b> they will be damped by parasitic resistances, but on my motor the "damping" is weak so the current can get very large and there ends up being high torque ripple
2023-02-11T02:43:03 < catphish> part of the reason i'm moving from voltge control to current closed loop is to get rid of them
2023-02-11T02:43:12 < Laurence_b> sounds sensible
2023-02-11T02:43:33 < catphish> with a pure voltage sine wave, i get a big 5th harmonic
2023-02-11T02:43:52 < Laurence_b> yeah I get good results cancelling 5th and 7th harmonics
2023-02-11T02:44:00 < catphish> but the torque ripple only seems noticeable at low speed
2023-02-11T02:44:22 < catphish> i tried forward cancellation but couldn't get it right
2023-02-11T02:44:42 < Laurence_b> earlier today I tried a failsafe brake mode that uses the inverter diodes to rectify "passively" and run a emergency brake (wont work with induction motor)
2023-02-11T02:44:51 < Laurence_b> works nicely but the noise is horrific
2023-02-11T02:46:01 < catphish> i'm only interested in shutting down my switching if somehting goes wrong :)
2023-02-11T02:46:12 < catphish> the car has perfectly good mechancal brakes :)
2023-02-11T02:46:55 < catphish> the main reason i'm implementing this is what voltage based control totally falls apart during regen braking, at least on an induction motor
2023-02-11T02:47:13 < catphish> it's almost impossible to keep current under control by only ramping voltage
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2023-02-11T02:47:58 < catphish> so i'm hoping by controlling the currents directly, i can keep things under control during varying regen conditions
2023-02-11T02:49:06 < Laurence_b> I'm not very familiar with induction motors :(
2023-02-11T02:49:12 < Laurence_b> lolll https://youtu.be/nsE-kZ62vcs
2023-02-11T02:49:58 < catphish> i'm not sure how fast to go with the control loop, and right now the ADC is not very well synchronized, it's just freerunning at about 450ksps
2023-02-11T02:50:33 < Laurence_b> ah ok, you should probably try to phase lock it to the PWM
2023-02-11T02:50:40 < catphish> DMA dumps the last 12 samples into an array and i average them
2023-02-11T02:51:17 < catphish> this chip has no hardware ADC averaging, using individual samples is kinda noisy
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2023-02-11T02:54:30 < catphish> have you still not finished your choo choo?
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2023-02-11T02:59:26 < Laurence_b> no chance, whole project is a disaster zone
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2023-02-11T03:00:22 < catphish> lol
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2023-02-11T03:01:58 < catphish> i'd love to speed this process up a lot more, the ADC is fast, i could probably switch manually at 100kHz+ and get rid of PWM
2023-02-11T03:02:22 < catphish> but that's a big change
2023-02-11T03:05:15 < catphish> i also have a huge deadtime, so that's limiting
2023-02-11T03:05:41 < catphish> this pwm approach seems to work though, i hopefully just need to tune it a bit
2023-02-11T03:16:37 < kaki> at some point you need to revise the whole thing
2023-02-11T03:18:09 < catphish> well maybe
2023-02-11T03:18:55 < catphish> will see how much i can optimize this current control loop and try to do better thab 17.6kHz
2023-02-11T03:19:56 < catphish> as long as i use PWM, i can basically just scale speed vs pwm resolution, i suspect speed will beat resolution every time
2023-02-11T03:21:59 < catphish> so right now i have 11 bits of PWM at 17.6kHz, but i'd think 10 bits at 35kHz would be much better, ultimately down to one bit at 36MHz, but clearly the CPU core isn't fast enough to do any calculations that fast
2023-02-11T03:29:13 < catphish> if i only needed one output, i could be wonderfully evil and copy my target value to TIMx_CCRn and my ADC value to TIMx_CNT and use the timer as a comparator
2023-02-11T03:29:20 < catphish> but that won't work with 3 phases
2023-02-11T03:30:56 < catphish> what i *can* do though is what was mentioned a couple of data ago, compare the vaues myself and put an all ones or all zeros value into TIMx_CCRn
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2023-02-11T03:41:14 < catphish> oh but catphish, more switching means more heat doesn't it sir
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2023-02-11T12:07:34 < jadew> zyp, 5, 5
2023-02-11T12:08:34 < jadew> the compiler will see it in the initialization list and won't do the default initialization
2023-02-11T12:08:53 < zyp> correct
2023-02-11T12:10:45 < jadew> the original example kind of reveals a shortcoming of the language, but at the same time it makes sense
2023-02-11T12:12:56 < zyp> it's not a shortcoming, it's a nonsensical expression, doing an assignment in a constructor argument in the initialization list
2023-02-11T12:13:24 < jadew> it is something that you can actually do tho
2023-02-11T12:13:49 < jadew> so it's a shortcoming in the sense that the compiler can't figure out that from that point on, that property is initialized
2023-02-11T12:14:24 < zyp> it's not initialized, you've just written to uninitialized memory
2023-02-11T12:14:38 < jadew> therefore, initializing it :)
2023-02-11T12:15:21 < jadew> but, yeah, the = operator could rely on an initialized object
2023-02-11T12:15:35 < jadew> this is as opposed to triggering the copy constructor, in which case it wouldn't matter
2023-02-11T12:15:59 < jadew> but if you don't have a copy constructor and all you have is an = operator, than yeah, you're operating on an uninitialized object
2023-02-11T12:16:07 < jadew> but you can do that with the initialization list too
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2023-02-11T12:16:55 < jadew> because despite the order of the arguments of the list, they will be initialized in the order found in the class, so you could for example (mistakenly) pass one of the properties as a reference to another property, before the referenced property was initialized
2023-02-11T12:17:01 < jadew> so there's room for error anyway
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2023-02-11T12:18:32 < zyp> if you want a language that doesn't let you touch uninitialized variables, use rust :)
2023-02-11T12:18:49 < jadew> heh, I keep hearing about how great rust is, but I've never tried it
2023-02-11T12:18:56 < jadew> is it really that good?
2023-02-11T12:19:18 < zyp> the language is pretty well designed
2023-02-11T12:19:27 < jadew> what's the catch tho?
2023-02-11T12:19:59 < jadew> why is not everyone using it already?
2023-02-11T12:20:07 < zyp> resistance to change?
2023-02-11T12:20:23 < zyp> also, I'm not sure I like the ecosystem
2023-02-11T12:21:53 < zyp> but yeah, one of the major features in rust is that it tracks variable lifetimes
2023-02-11T12:22:08 < jadew> statically, right?
2023-02-11T12:22:24 < zyp> yes
2023-02-11T12:23:31 < zyp> if you pass a reference to something living on the stack out of a function, rust ensures that the reference is only accessed before the function returns
2023-02-11T12:24:19 < jadew> so if you start a thread and try to access it from there it will error out, because it's not guaranteed that the thread will access it before the function returns
2023-02-11T12:25:24 < jadew> but you could for example use synchronization mechanisms and make sure the thread accesses the reference before the function ends - I would expect rust to not allow that despite it being possible
2023-02-11T12:25:55 < jadew> is that a fair assertion?
2023-02-11T12:27:22 < zyp> rust also enforces use of synchronization mechanisms
2023-02-11T12:27:45 < jadew> oh, so it would understand that scenario and allow it?
2023-02-11T12:28:08 < jadew> or that's only for threading
2023-02-11T12:28:31 < jadew> ok, I'm starting to get an idea... I need to put it on my todo list
2023-02-11T12:28:51 < zyp> it also tracks ownership, an object can only be owned by one thread at a time
2023-02-11T12:29:03 < zyp> https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ch16-02-message-passing.html
2023-02-11T12:29:52 < zyp> or this is probably closer to what you're thinking of: https://doc.rust-lang.org/book/ch16-03-shared-state.html
2023-02-11T12:31:24 < zyp> tl;dr: a rust mutex is also a container for an arbitrary object, you're only allowed to access the contained object while you're holding the mutex lock
2023-02-11T12:32:02 < jadew> sounds like synchronized_value
2023-02-11T12:32:55 < zyp> pretty much
2023-02-11T12:33:13 < jadew> interesting concept
2023-02-11T12:33:33 < zyp> but I mean, the main feature of rust is the borrow/lifetime checker
2023-02-11T12:33:52 < jadew> yeah, that seems useful
2023-02-11T12:34:59 < zyp> I recommend reading through that rust book, it's interesting even if you don't intend to use the language
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2023-02-11T13:01:31 < PaulFertser> Re Rust, https://vt.social/@lina/109838881952715796 the biggest Linux Rust driver so far, "Zero oops/panic reports"
2023-02-11T13:04:39 < jadew> was it written by pikachu?
2023-02-11T13:06:01 < PaulFertser> S-o-b says Asahi Lina
2023-02-11T13:08:06 < jadew> I would try it today, but I'm in the middle of a project
2023-02-11T13:08:25 < jadew> I'm sure I'll figure out what the deal breaker is
2023-02-11T13:09:06 < braindamage> back when I checked, the embeeded as in sans os support was nonexistant
2023-02-11T13:09:21 < braindamage> but that was 3-4 years ago
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2023-02-11T13:58:25 < ventYl> i have tried to install the toolchain a few days ago
2023-02-11T13:58:42 < ventYl> and fell into something which looked like a dependency hell within cardo library
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2023-02-11T14:25:56 < Laurence_b> uh oh
2023-02-11T14:26:03 < Laurence_b> highaltitude getting missiled
2023-02-11T14:26:06 < Laurence_b> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64605447
2023-02-11T14:28:25 < Laurence_b> their tracker is down :(
2023-02-11T14:36:42 < qyx> Laurence_b: is it known who was the owner?
2023-02-11T14:37:30 < Laurence_b> no but all the info sounds like it was the work of #highaltitude
2023-02-11T14:38:31 < Laurence_b> also that size of balloon is legal to fly at that altitude provided that its very low density so cant damage jet engines
2023-02-11T14:38:51 < Laurence_b> muricans are loosing it
2023-02-11T14:39:37 < ventYl> but you still have to arrange with flight control, when you launch such thing so they can track it, don't you?
2023-02-11T14:39:43 < Laurence_b> no
2023-02-11T14:39:48 < ventYl> here, you have
2023-02-11T14:40:01 < ventYl> more precisely, you have to get a permit
2023-02-11T14:40:04 < Laurence_b> only so they can notify local aircraft at low altitudes
2023-02-11T14:40:07 < Laurence_b> yes
2023-02-11T14:40:51 < Laurence_b> if its <2m dimension then it doesnt need to notify others when it crosses air space boundaries
2023-02-11T14:41:03 < ventYl> the permit usually has time and place of launch so the interference with air traffic is minimized
2023-02-11T14:41:21 < Laurence_b> yeah
2023-02-11T14:41:23 < ventYl> well, size of small car probably does not fall into this category
2023-02-11T14:42:00 < braindamage> considering the whole NOTAM mess in the usa, it doesn't surprise me
2023-02-11T14:42:31 < Laurence_b> lol imagine if #highaltitude launched a balloon armada and us ran out of missiles
2023-02-11T14:42:37 < braindamage> as in, 11 jan the NOTAM telematic system in the us went down
2023-02-11T14:42:48 < braindamage> with massive outages
2023-02-11T14:42:51 < Laurence_b> lol
2023-02-11T14:43:19 < braindamage> https://invidious.snopyta.org/watch?v=ib79qWWMOcc&player_style=youtube&subtitles=en%2Cit&autoplay=1
2023-02-11T14:45:20 < Steffanx-> There's not talk about it in #highaltitude at all..
2023-02-11T14:47:01 < Laurence_b> ikr
2023-02-11T14:47:10 < Laurence_b> very strange
2023-02-11T14:47:24 < Laurence_b> inb4 they are all cia chatbots
2023-02-11T14:47:43 < Steffanx-> if it was, it must be on their tracker website.
2023-02-11T14:49:45 < ventYl> hm, IIRC ADS-B, which is used in aerospace for some 10, maybe 15 years, is not encrypted nor signed, nor nothing
2023-02-11T14:50:00 < ventYl> so, having proper radio, you can inject fake traffic into ATC
2023-02-11T14:50:20 < ventYl> and Airbuses will trust such fake traffic and do maneuvres to avoid it
2023-02-11T14:50:57 < braindamage> you're correct on ads-b
2023-02-11T14:51:19 < braindamage> there's a network of civil receivers that report airplane positions, like flightradar24, etc
2023-02-11T14:51:30 < Laurence_b> I suspect they have sanity checking on where a signal was received
2023-02-11T14:51:42 < braindamage> even those that don't report their position explicitly get it extracted by multilateration
2023-02-11T14:52:10 < ventYl> there was a presentation on blackhat some time ago
2023-02-11T14:52:13 < Laurence_b> yeah, it would be easy to spot trivial spoofing that way
2023-02-11T14:52:41 < ventYl> where they injecter YOURMOM flight into flightradar24 and demonstrated its presence in some older version of MS flight sim with ADS-B plugin installed
2023-02-11T14:52:53 < Laurence_b> lollll
2023-02-11T14:54:23 < braindamage> the system's should've auto-rejected on the basis she's too fat to make any airplane to fly
2023-02-11T14:54:31 < ventYl> Laurence_b: the point is, that designers apparently didn't think of it at all
2023-02-11T14:55:10 < Laurence_b> well it has very big advantages if there is no need for a system of key distribution
2023-02-11T14:56:09 < braindamage> unless you're running an active denial of service, avoiding one or two fake obstacles doesn't sound like a huge deal
2023-02-11T14:56:37 < braindamage> and if you're creating a large scale denial of service, then they are going to track you by RF direction finding
2023-02-11T14:57:14 < braindamage> granted, the air traffic is still going to be disrupted, but they're going to make you pay for it
2023-02-11T14:57:24 < Laurence_b> yeah
2023-02-11T14:57:41 < ventYl> braindamage: according to that presentation, Airbus autopilot will try to avoid such fake obstacle even if it is turned off. So if you inject correct fake obstacles even for short period of time, you can essentially hijack such plane
2023-02-11T14:58:14 < Laurence_b> a single transmitter on the ground can be easily filtered out in software
2023-02-11T15:07:40 < kaki> anyone have aixun jbc clone?
2023-02-11T15:08:00 < kaki> not a clone but a copy rather
2023-02-11T15:08:31 < Laurence_b> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FoMMrZzWAAAXRfI?format=jpg&name=small
2023-02-11T15:08:37 < Laurence_b> lets talk about serious news
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2023-02-11T15:18:32 < Steffanx-> telegram thorn has it, kaki . He posted a photo a few days ago.
2023-02-11T15:19:05 < kaki> not the irc Thorn?
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2023-02-11T15:23:43 < kaki> hmm he got the reflow thing too
2023-02-11T15:26:11 < jadew> what reflow thing?
2023-02-11T15:26:17 < jadew> from aixun?
2023-02-11T15:26:33 < kaki> ye
2023-02-11T15:26:46 < jadew> what's it called? got a link?
2023-02-11T15:28:19 < kaki> no idea
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2023-02-11T15:34:06 < ventYl> another soviet spacecraft lost cooling medium
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2023-02-11T15:34:59 < ventYl> hm, ok. not cooling medium. it is losing atmosphere
2023-02-11T15:35:35 < ventYl> good, that it is just Progress
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2023-02-11T16:28:23 < Laurence_b> lol https://nitter.nl/RokoMijic/status/1624359975416958977#m
2023-02-11T16:28:32 < Laurence_b> the north british race is subhuman
2023-02-11T16:28:49 < Laurence_b> south pride world wide
2023-02-11T16:32:50 < Laurence_b> ree wspr database is crap
2023-02-11T16:33:02 < Laurence_b> I wanted to find who launched the balloon, but its too slowwww
2023-02-11T16:51:04 < Steffanx-> its not a reflow thing from aixun kaki 
2023-02-11T16:51:09 < Steffanx-> its atten something
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2023-02-11T18:00:10 < kaki> something brewing in Turkiye?
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2023-02-11T18:00:40 < kaki> ger and aus retrive their search and rescue because of detoriating security situation
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2023-02-11T18:11:52 < kaki> hopefully it's not islamic totalitarism
2023-02-11T18:12:11 < kaki> but odds are restlessness in that area is
2023-02-11T18:16:40 < ventYl> I assume that vandalism and looting spreads around the area
2023-02-11T18:18:51 < jadew> are people upset on the government?
2023-02-11T18:19:43 < ventYl> just general idiocy and scarce resources
2023-02-11T18:20:12 < ventYl> you can expect that pretty much anywhere in the world except in Japan
2023-02-11T18:20:41 < jadew> why not in Japan?
2023-02-11T18:21:46 < ventYl> IDK why, but the culture there makes people to obey rules even in case of disaster
2023-02-11T18:22:16 < jadew> higher IQ population maybe
2023-02-11T18:22:37 < jadew> if enough people behave, everyone else behaves also
2023-02-11T18:22:52 < jadew> I'd be looting tho, can't risk the alternative
2023-02-11T18:22:56 < ventYl> that's not about IQ, IQ 100 is set to be an average in certain population, often coutry
2023-02-11T18:24:01 < braindamage> social responsibility is more about culture
2023-02-11T18:24:26 < jadew> yeah, but to have that kind of culture you need a high IQ society
2023-02-11T18:25:08 < ventYl> after hurricane Catherine in south of US, there was huge looting, in Japan after Fukushima, people were orderly waiting in queues to take just those 10 litres of gasoline and nothing more "because they need it"
2023-02-11T18:25:08 < braindamage> that's just your opinion
2023-02-11T18:25:08 < specing> kaki: south-east of turkey is kurdistan, they really really dislike erdogan there
2023-02-11T18:25:12 < ventYl> entirely different world
2023-02-11T18:25:33 < jadew> braindamage, yeah, maybe it's a distorted view on the world
2023-02-11T18:25:56 < rustyaxe> ventYl: katrina..and the people in that area were looting and shooting long before the hurricane
2023-02-11T18:26:17 < rustyaxe> at least new orleans.. it's been a pretty terrible place for a long time
2023-02-11T18:26:22 < jadew> having witnessed dumb societies, I have some expectations, but perhaps they can have great cultures too
2023-02-11T18:26:29 < ventYl> rustyaxe: which US city isn't a pretty terrible place to live?
2023-02-11T18:28:20 < rustyaxe> If you discount philadelphia, chicago, detroit, new york, atlanta, and new orleans, suddenly the USA is a much calmer place than many are lead to believe.
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2023-02-11T18:29:09 < kaki> ventYl: probs something in texas
2023-02-11T18:29:10 < jadew> isn't there like a shooting every year in a random location?
2023-02-11T18:29:10 < rustyaxe> but when people looting and killing each other as normal course of business.. you cant expect them to be civil when disasters happen. If you wanna see cities dealing with disasters, etc without all that, look at the midwest
2023-02-11T18:29:13 < braindamage> aren't those just the most populated places?
2023-02-11T18:30:38 < ventYl> rustyaxe: aside from, maybe, ridiculously high cost of living I guess
2023-02-11T18:31:21 < rustyaxe> Generally the people looting and such don't pay their cost of living anyways, the taxpayers do
2023-02-11T18:31:28 < jadew> I suppose a high cost of living is one way of keeping the trouble makers out
2023-02-11T18:31:39 < rustyaxe> nah, they just subsidize housing
2023-02-11T18:32:07 < braindamage> the opposite
2023-02-11T18:32:09 < rustyaxe> ive seen tons of disasters in USA that didnt involve looting
2023-02-11T18:32:16 < braindamage> high cost of living means you routinely get people pushed to desperation when they fail
2023-02-11T18:32:52 < rustyaxe> high cost of living? iin usa all you have to do is work a minimum wage job or less and you can get free housing, healthcare, etc.
2023-02-11T18:33:40 < braindamage> the last time I checked free healthcare there covered essentially "you die in 5 min" problems, and that's it
2023-02-11T18:35:17 < rustyaxe> Nah. It works out such as - if you do not have job or a very low paying one, you can get medicaid which pays for most of your healthcare. If you work say for a small company that pays you twice minimum wage but cant afford to subsidize your insurance- you pay 695$/month for a 9600$ yearly deductible; or 968$/month for no deductible but lose vision and dental -- for one person.
2023-02-11T18:36:39 < kaki> fun
2023-02-11T18:37:06 < kaki> US is nice place if you have nice salary
2023-02-11T18:37:34 < braindamage> meanwhile here I pay 1 to 5 euro at most for medicines
2023-02-11T18:37:46 < braindamage> for a month's supply
2023-02-11T18:37:59 < ventYl> kaki: and are healthy person
2023-02-11T18:37:59 < rustyaxe> insurance was actually affordable, i paid only 200$/month with a 500$ yearly deductible, all vision/dental/prescriptions included. Then "affordable care act" happened lol
2023-02-11T18:38:20 < jadew> $200/mo wtf...
2023-02-11T18:39:01 < rustyaxe> considerably better than the two groups of 'options' presented now :o
2023-02-11T18:39:28 < jadew> you're better off investing that money and traveling to the EU when you have an issue to deal with it here
2023-02-11T18:39:39 < kaki> need to squeeze that main working population
2023-02-11T18:39:43 < rustyaxe> Not really, i'd have to drive to canada or mexico then fly out
2023-02-11T18:39:54 < rustyaxe> i'm not a fan of the free testicle massages at US airports
2023-02-11T18:40:00 < jadew> oh, lol
2023-02-11T18:40:14 < jadew> land of the free :)
2023-02-11T18:40:37 < rustyaxe> we've had a communism problem for a couple decades now
2023-02-11T18:40:58 < jadew> had?
2023-02-11T18:41:11 < rustyaxe> Oh its still here unfortunately. Our government is infested with them
2023-02-11T18:41:21 < braindamage> nah, you fear of communism extends to today
2023-02-11T18:41:39 < jadew> braindamage, it's not fear, communism is on the rise in the US
2023-02-11T18:41:42 < jadew> and the EU
2023-02-11T18:42:09 < braindamage> jadew: one thing is recognizing it as an ideology, another is some sort of deep rooted fear
2023-02-11T18:42:17 < jadew> just talk to a bunch of youths from various backgrounds, see how they see the world
2023-02-11T18:42:20 < ventYl> probably the US has a bit different description of that term
2023-02-11T18:42:48 < jadew> ventYl, no, they don't, the whole equity shit is rooted in marxism
2023-02-11T18:43:14 < jadew> the youth feel like there's no way they can make it in the current economic setting, so they don't want to play the game
2023-02-11T18:43:48 < jadew> and they feel like their future was stolen from them, which is why it's easy to agree with the idea of sharing other people's shit
2023-02-11T18:43:48 < rustyaxe> which leaves the ones of us who do work carrying their lazy asses.
2023-02-11T18:44:48 < karlp> oh dear, the loonies are out.
2023-02-11T18:45:02 < karlp> kaki: I have a aixun t3b, it's great! 
2023-02-11T18:45:38 < rustyaxe> I dont have an issue with people who are actually disabled/incapable of doing work collecting assisting and sitting around at home. But people who sit at home because "this system isnt fair, i dont wanna play anymore"? To the woodchipper!
2023-02-11T18:46:19 < karlp> way nicer than the old hakko 936 it prelaced, and way faster and nicer than the "fancy" weller at work.
2023-02-11T18:46:21 < jadew> rustyaxe, see, that's the wrong stance also, it's their choice to do it, but society shouldn't support their lifestyle
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2023-02-11T18:47:00 < jadew> karlp, I heard it's almost as nice as the JBC it copies
2023-02-11T18:47:47 < ventYl> rustyaxe: I don't agree with your worldview
2023-02-11T18:47:51 < ventYl> but I accept it
2023-02-11T18:47:59 < karlp> I wouldn't know, I'm not even considering paying tha tsort of price
2023-02-11T18:48:05 < karlp> it's also delightfully compact.
2023-02-11T18:48:27 < jadew> karlp, yeah, that's what I enjoyed about the KSGER too
2023-02-11T18:48:28 < kaki> karlp: what is difference of A and B?
2023-02-11T18:48:30 < karlp> I have a super compact hot air too, which isn't nearly as cool, but is ~equivalent to the 968 style really.
2023-02-11T18:48:40 < kaki> is it that A doesn't have the nice stand?
2023-02-11T18:48:47 < karlp> B has smaller handlers, and is newer, and has the different stand iirc.
2023-02-11T18:48:53 < jadew> if I could find a compat hot air, I would replace my current gordak 952 with an axiun + the hot air
2023-02-11T18:48:53 < karlp> the wire goes out the back around to the stand, 
2023-02-11T18:48:59 < jadew> karlp, what hot air do you have?
2023-02-11T18:49:10 < karlp> jadew: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002890887241.html
2023-02-11T18:49:49 < braindamage> oh, I was really tempted by that one
2023-02-11T18:50:03 < karlp> it works fine, it's nothing fancy
2023-02-11T18:50:12 < jadew> looks pretty cool, but isn't the handle heavy?
2023-02-11T18:50:14 < karlp> the magnets for autoshut off in the handle holder were in the wrong place though.
2023-02-11T18:50:27 < karlp> it's... the same as all the other hones I've used, so no comment on that.
2023-02-11T18:50:39 < karlp> I've never tried one of these with the fan in the station and a tube.
2023-02-11T18:50:51 < karlp> I don't consider it an issue pesonally, but I'm not a heavy user either to be honest.
2023-02-11T18:50:56 < jadew> I haven't tried one with the fan...
2023-02-11T18:51:07 < jadew> ah, I use my hot air regularly
2023-02-11T18:51:11 < braindamage> I liked that the fan was in the handle, since fan and resistive element are those that fail
2023-02-11T18:51:24 < rustyaxe> jadew: exactly - if you are capable of working and just dont want to? Why should you get 50$/month housing when every who works has to pay 1500$+ for the same size place? 20$/month for gigabit internet and 110+ channels of HD when working people pay 140$+ for that? Free mobile phone service (subsidized by the people who pay 50$+/month for their phone services). Etc.
2023-02-11T18:51:34 < braindamage> and you can just replace the whole thing
2023-02-11T18:51:50 < karlp> yeah, handles for those station stations and elements and shit are all totally interchangeable
2023-02-11T18:52:27 < karlp> I can weight it for you if you like...
2023-02-11T18:52:29 < karlp> one tick.
2023-02-11T18:52:31 < rustyaxe> Speaking of soldering irons.. I badly need to ordre tips for this little chinese temp controlled pencil. It's definitely already paid for itself
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2023-02-11T18:53:30 < jadew> karlp, that would be nice, but I don't have a suitable scale right now to weigh mine
2023-02-11T18:53:37 < karlp> 167g, resting on it.
2023-02-11T18:53:44 < karlp> it's really not heavy.
2023-02-11T18:53:46 < jadew> with the cable on the bench, I assume
2023-02-11T18:53:51 < jadew> not weighing it down
2023-02-11T18:53:55 < jadew> yeah
2023-02-11T18:53:58 < jadew> 167 is not much
2023-02-11T18:56:23 < karlp> fucking nextcloud install is getting old and hairy, 
2023-02-11T18:57:04 < karlp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/IHoby/IMG_20230211_165410.jpg
2023-02-11T18:58:30 < braindamage> that's a well ordered desk by my standards
2023-02-11T18:58:43 < karlp> that's the well ordered packed corner...
2023-02-11T18:58:54 < kaki> that's an empty desk by my standards
2023-02-11T18:58:59 < jadew> haha
2023-02-11T18:59:17 < jadew> I don't like it, but I keep mine like that too
2023-02-11T18:59:30 < karlp> don't like what abut it?
2023-02-11T18:59:34 < kaki> if stuff is not falling off from edge constantly it still has room
2023-02-11T18:59:41 < ventYl> mine looks the same too
2023-02-11T18:59:44 < jadew> I don't like that there's too much shit in my way
2023-02-11T18:59:51 < jadew> not your bench in particular
2023-02-11T19:00:00 < ventYl> I learned that the next day after I store some stuff away, I will need it
2023-02-11T19:00:09 < kaki> just place a bin under the edge of desk and old projects fall straight to bin
2023-02-11T19:00:11 < ventYl> so I keep them all around all the time
2023-02-11T19:00:25 < jadew> yeah, the idea is to put everything back once you're done with it, but it's very difficult to do it
2023-02-11T19:00:35 < jadew> because you're rarely truly done
2023-02-11T19:00:51 < braindamage> maybe I should try to use those monitor raisers under instrumentation
2023-02-11T19:00:54 < karlp> middle is a bit messier: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/XJVOi/IMG_20230211_165858.jpg
2023-02-11T19:01:25 < jadew> I have to agree with everyone else, it's not that messy
2023-02-11T19:01:27 < braindamage> this way the desk is really reserved for non-instrumentation stuff
2023-02-11T19:01:31 < jadew> there's just one layer of stuff
2023-02-11T19:01:40 < karlp> yeah, well,I try  not to go insane.
2023-02-11T19:02:04 < karlp> I've also liked having teh scope permanently there too, it's nice to just "you know what, let's just scope that"
2023-02-11T19:02:23 < jadew> braindamage, what raisers? sounds interesting
2023-02-11T19:02:52 < jadew> karlp, you need a deeper bench for that
2023-02-11T19:02:58 < braindamage> https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/a3532c38-40f1-46c0-874b-84296aa1c713_1.de68323fca93c9ac193df40bab087737.jpeg
2023-02-11T19:03:01 < karlp> for what? the scope is right there
2023-02-11T19:03:02 < kaki> karlp: normal
2023-02-11T19:03:24 < jadew> karlp, where is it?
2023-02-11T19:03:30 < jadew> I meant for instruments in general
2023-02-11T19:03:32 < karlp> jadew: behind the red board, under the breadboard and the esp32 in pink foam
2023-02-11T19:03:42 < braindamage> this kind of thing
2023-02-11T19:03:52 < jadew> karlp, ah, it's one of those pico devices?
2023-02-11T19:03:57 < braindamage> this way instrumentation can remain piled there, and the bottom surface remains available
2023-02-11T19:04:02 < karlp> nah, fuck paying for that too.
2023-02-11T19:04:12 < karlp> I have super ghetto, but more than enough for "is the shape of this shit ok or not"
2023-02-11T19:04:19 < karlp> and let's me see how much scope I really need.
2023-02-11T19:04:29 < karlp> its done well for me, certainly for the price
2023-02-11T19:05:00 < braindamage> the more I think about it, the more the shelf gives me good ideas
2023-02-11T19:05:16 < karlp> it's one of these http://www.hantek.com/products/detail/153
2023-02-11T19:05:24 < braindamage> I could affix the LA cables to it so that I don't yank the board
2023-02-11T19:05:34 < karlp> braindamage: yeah, I was actualyl thinking of monitor risers this morning to make things have mroe little shelfs for things there
2023-02-11T19:06:00 < jadew> you can install an actual shelf on top of the bench, for instruments, but personally I don't like to have instruments on top of the main bench, it feels claustrophobic
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2023-02-11T19:17:35 < jadew> karlp, it seems like you already have a wall that supports anchoring stuff to it - can you not anchor a shelf directly on it?
2023-02-11T19:18:06 < jadew> I would put it on top of the existing instruments and soldering stuff
2023-02-11T19:19:53 < jadew> the original Carlson's lab was one of the most claustrophobic looking one that I've ever seen
2023-02-11T19:20:14 < jadew> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C6BXU4eUwAAtx8t.jpg
2023-02-11T19:20:47 < jadew> if you startle and flinch you get a bruise
2023-02-11T19:21:49 < jadew> he showed it off at one point, and there's another side on the right, but by that picture alone you'd think he's streaming from a broom closet
2023-02-11T19:22:56 < braindamage> part of the reason is the long crt instruments
2023-02-11T19:23:25 < braindamage> lcd scopes, la, and other stuff don't feel as cramped
2023-02-11T19:23:44 < jadew> yeah, they're very long
2023-02-11T19:24:46 < jadew> my bench is 120 or 140 cm deep
2023-02-11T19:24:55 < jadew> (for that reason)
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2023-02-11T19:53:57 < kaki> jadew: bonk warehouse it is
2023-02-11T19:54:17 < kaki> barelly a lab
2023-02-11T20:11:45 < fenugrec>  shelf is nice but a deep desk is kindof annoying https://filebin.net/17yunjz2j2gquh0r
2023-02-11T20:12:36 < kaki> needs an ESD mat
2023-02-11T20:12:41 < kaki> for estetics
2023-02-11T20:12:58 < fenugrec> have one, doesn't fit on desk because rear ledge IIRC\
2023-02-11T20:13:14 < fenugrec> "wood is ESD safe" right
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2023-02-11T20:15:16 < kaki> cut the mat
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2023-02-11T20:15:35 < kaki> aka. make it fit
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2023-02-11T20:16:30 < fenugrec> I should, but I keep thinking maybe I'll build a new desk, but I never do
2023-02-11T20:17:56 < kaki> you wont
2023-02-11T20:17:59 < kaki> cut the mat
2023-02-11T20:18:38 < fenugrec> This one has a feature that really grew on me - the "keyboard" drawer holds common pliers, cutters, screwdrivers etc
2023-02-11T20:19:29 < fenugrec> laptop barely fits on the desk and takes up valuable real estate. Should really build a better desk
2023-02-11T20:19:40 < kaki> you will
2023-02-11T20:20:05 < kaki> have a separate floating laptop
2023-02-11T20:21:01 < rustyaxe> its really hard to type on it whens it's floating tho
2023-02-11T20:21:09 < rustyaxe> Plus they dont like water
2023-02-11T20:22:02 < fenugrec> something like this would rule https://www.icwusa.com/media/T2EQ-C8X5-NEW-CAPS-300x300.png
2023-02-11T20:22:20 < fenugrec> only 978$
2023-02-11T20:22:57 < kaki> do something crafty
2023-02-11T20:23:15 < kaki> I have floating keyboard stand
2023-02-11T20:23:23 < fenugrec> ... "floating"
2023-02-11T20:23:33 < kaki> and mousepad is there too
2023-02-11T20:23:45 < fenugrec> I already have a "crafty' microscope stand !
2023-02-11T20:23:47 < kaki> it bends quite alot
2023-02-11T20:24:16 < braindamage> fenugrec: you can get monitor arms for 1/10th of that price
2023-02-11T20:24:34 < fenugrec> braindamage, oh I know, but ceiling-mount is interesting
2023-02-11T20:35:47 < karlp> lol https://twitter.com/Win98Tech/status/1623388613026127877/photo/1
2023-02-11T20:36:33 < ColdKeyboard> Does anyone know where to buy or even what to search for if I'm looking for these 90deg, 4pin fan connectors -> https://imgur.com/a/4qA2ELl
2023-02-11T20:37:22 < ColdKeyboard> For some reason I can only find vertical ones. But can't find the 90 degree ones anywhere... But they clearly exist
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2023-02-11T20:55:59 < kaki> tell me when you find them
2023-02-11T20:56:15 < kaki> I think you need to place a custom order in ali
2023-02-11T20:56:37 < fenugrec> isn't it a molex part#
2023-02-11T20:56:45 < kaki> it isn't
2023-02-11T20:56:46 < fenugrec> just 2.54mm pitch right-angle
2023-02-11T20:56:54 < fenugrec> https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/138941/what-is-the-name-of-this-connector-from-a-fan
2023-02-11T20:57:28 < fenugrec> molex KK series
2023-02-11T20:57:46 < kaki> molex doesn't have right angle
2023-02-11T20:57:57 < fenugrec> ok
2023-02-11T20:57:59 < kaki> with off center key
2023-02-11T20:58:16 < kaki> you can get one that has symmetrical key and cut some off
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2023-02-11T20:59:38 < kaki> https://drive.google.com/file/d/10uBWGxnfGS8YLooXlTwJ_-YdI0_xu24g/view?usp=sharing
2023-02-11T21:00:05 < kaki> they didn't have in ali right angle one with off center key
2023-02-11T21:00:15 < kaki> took that right angle from somewhere
2023-02-11T21:01:34 < kaki> lets see if memory serves me right>
2023-02-11T21:03:07 < kaki> yes I don't have those
2023-02-11T21:05:06 < Steffanx-> ohno kakigate
2023-02-11T21:05:17 < ventYl> kaki: how's the bimmer hacking project going?
2023-02-11T21:05:49 < kaki> should go to workshop to facilitate some test points for different busses
2023-02-11T21:07:11 < ColdKeyboard> Damn... I was looking for these forever
2023-02-11T21:07:35 < ColdKeyboard> The KK series and figuring out  that they are called 3+1 for some reason gives you a AliExpress seller
2023-02-11T21:07:54 < ColdKeyboard> kaki https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32961935772.html
2023-02-11T21:09:07 < kaki> ah they didn't have stock then
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2023-02-11T22:24:57 < josuah> nice and robust and polarized
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--- Day changed su helmi 12 2023
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2023-02-12T00:32:35 < eak> is anyone here ?
2023-02-12T00:42:00 < mawk> yes
2023-02-12T00:49:00 < Steffanx-> I don't see him.
2023-02-12T01:02:50 < josuah> eak: I'm not I am afraid, I'm over there though
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2023-02-12T01:06:04 < eak> I'm trying to make nucleo207 work on linux for the first time ..
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2023-02-12T01:32:57 < josuah> eak: nice! So if you say Linux, you probably mean the programming environment?
2023-02-12T01:33:15 < josuah> both programming as in compiling the binary, and programming as loading the binary to the nucleo with a programmer
2023-02-12T01:33:36 < josuah> (which is often a st-link firmware built into the nucleo iirc)
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2023-02-12T01:42:22 < josuah> eak: or did you get there already and are now trying to get it to react to your incantations?
2023-02-12T01:54:58 < eak> I'm already there, this morning I managed to compile "manually" and flash the board with st-link and now I'm trying to use eclipse with openstm32, but it's not working yet
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2023-02-12T13:39:47 < Mangy_Dog> looking over some example docs for the py arm chips....
2023-02-12T13:39:53 < Mangy_Dog>   uint32_t u32Low  = 0x00200000;  WTF is this?
2023-02-12T13:40:07 < Mangy_Dog> i have never seen a byte decliration like that
2023-02-12T13:40:14 < Mangy_Dog> decleration 
2023-02-12T13:40:31 < ventYl> what is weird on it?
2023-02-12T13:40:34 < Mangy_Dog> the 2
2023-02-12T13:40:39 < Mangy_Dog> in a byte
2023-02-12T13:40:47 < ventYl> where is there a byt?
2023-02-12T13:40:59 < Mangy_Dog>  0x00200000;
2023-02-12T13:41:13 < Mangy_Dog>      ^
2023-02-12T13:41:16 < ventYl> that's a hex value, u32Low is a 32-bit value, this seems perfectly legal to me
2023-02-12T13:41:48 < Mangy_Dog> oh
2023-02-12T13:41:50 < veverak> Mangy_Dog: it's not binary, it's hexa
2023-02-12T13:41:53 < Mangy_Dog> nods
2023-02-12T13:41:58 < Mangy_Dog> << stupid
2023-02-12T13:42:02 < Mangy_Dog> << also tired
2023-02-12T13:42:22 < Mangy_Dog> okays never mind :D
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2023-02-12T14:12:01 < josuah> Mangy_Dog: 0b00200000; would have been sure very weird
2023-02-12T14:12:29 < Mangy_Dog> nod nods
2023-02-12T14:12:37 < Mangy_Dog> thats what was going in my mind
2023-02-12T14:14:03 < josuah> Mangy_Dog: that's a lot of zeroes though
2023-02-12T14:14:27 < Mangy_Dog> :p
2023-02-12T14:15:05 < josuah> 00000000 00100000 00000000 00000000 'o'
2023-02-12T14:17:27 < josuah> better than octal though ^_^' 010000000 <- yes, that's octal :(
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2023-02-12T15:03:32 < jbo> sup
2023-02-12T15:06:53 < jpa-> physics is broken
2023-02-12T15:07:47 < jpa-> i have 120kohm - 8.2 kohm feedback divider for LTC3824, feedback is correctly at 0.8V but output voltage is 15V and not 12.5V like it should be
2023-02-12T15:07:59 < jpa-> yet the resistors measure correct
2023-02-12T15:09:12 < jbo> got that snubber network on the feedback line? Many moons ago I had a similar issue (with a different dc/dc tho) and it turned out to be a noise issue
2023-02-12T15:09:20 < jbo> was a fairly high-power thing tho so very long shot in the dark here
2023-02-12T15:09:37 < jpa-> yeah, followed the reference diagram - but only booting up the scope now
2023-02-12T15:10:02 < jbo> might also want to double check that the inductor matches specs
2023-02-12T15:11:11 < jpa-> it's "random one from the bin" special
2023-02-12T15:11:27 < jbo> :D
2023-02-12T15:11:57 < jbo> hand wound from rebar ?
2023-02-12T15:13:14 < jpa-> i guess noise issue makes sense, it works when i put the scope probe on it
2023-02-12T15:13:35 < jbo> :)
2023-02-12T15:13:44 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/ltc3824_fb.png  doesn't look great though :D
2023-02-12T15:14:13 < jbo> should be good enough to charge a smartphone
2023-02-12T15:14:33 < jpa-> probably too much stray capacitance between the switching node and feedback pin
2023-02-12T15:14:41 < Mangy_Dog> might also want to swap out the DC-DC
2023-02-12T15:14:43 < Mangy_Dog> might be faulty
2023-02-12T15:14:54 < jbo> that seems more unlikely IMHO
2023-02-12T15:15:03 < Mangy_Dog> i had a 3.3v fixed dcdc from TI... that putputted 15v :/
2023-02-12T15:15:04 < jpa-> even if it was faulty, i would want to know why and how
2023-02-12T15:15:46 < Mangy_Dog> admitidly it was brought through Ali
2023-02-12T15:16:11 < Mangy_Dog> deffo original part... no fake markings or anything... maybe just a b grade part or bad recycled
2023-02-12T15:17:12 < jbo> buying TI parts from aliexpress... nope.
2023-02-12T15:17:31 < Mangy_Dog> plenty fo good affordable parts
2023-02-12T15:17:38 < Mangy_Dog> if youre willing to do some work with them
2023-02-12T15:17:55 < jpa-> "A 100pF capacitor is required across the V CC and sense pins for noise filtering"    how considerate not to draw that on any of the example schematics :D
2023-02-12T15:17:55 < Mangy_Dog> test ect and not assume the part is just working
2023-02-12T15:18:18 < Mangy_Dog> oh yeah ive spotted that kinda thing as wlel
2023-02-12T15:18:27 < Mangy_Dog> though 100pf
2023-02-12T15:18:31 < Mangy_Dog> how odd
2023-02-12T15:18:46 < jbo> jpa- :D
2023-02-12T15:18:52 < jbo> how is 100pf odd Mangy_Dog ?
2023-02-12T15:18:57 < Mangy_Dog> how fast is the dcdc?
2023-02-12T15:19:28 < jbo> 200kHz to 600kHz
2023-02-12T15:19:45 < Mangy_Dog> jbo its a very low capacitor, for stablising a V line to read
2023-02-12T15:19:54 < jbo> well that is how filters work
2023-02-12T15:20:02 < Mangy_Dog> i can imagine 100pf for something in the multi multi megahertz
2023-02-12T15:20:07 < Mangy_Dog> not killohertz range
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2023-02-12T15:20:32 < jbo> it is not just based on switching frequency but the entire control & feedback circuitry
2023-02-12T15:20:38 < jpa-> that's because you are understanding the purpose of the capacitor wrong
2023-02-12T15:21:13 < Mangy_Dog> probebly
2023-02-12T15:21:14 < jpa-> considering it is the current limit sense pin, you cannot filter out the switching frequency - that would make it useless, it just needs to filter out high frequency harmonic noise
2023-02-12T15:21:41 < Mangy_Dog> ok that makes more sense
2023-02-12T15:22:21 < Mangy_Dog> out of interest
2023-02-12T15:22:24 < Mangy_Dog> what dcdc are you using?
2023-02-12T15:22:38 < jpa-> LTC3824
2023-02-12T15:23:18 < Mangy_Dog> ooohhh high power stuffs
2023-02-12T15:23:49 < jbo> jpa-, the 100pf Sense/Vcc cap is actually in the examples on page 13 and 16
2023-02-12T15:24:03 < Mangy_Dog> so far managed to avoid high power and mains (mostly) not confident working with them
2023-02-12T15:24:11 < jpa-> jbo: hmm.. yes
2023-02-12T15:24:19 < Mangy_Dog> battery level and logic level power. IM fine with now
2023-02-12T15:24:26 < jpa-> just not on pages 1 and 8
2023-02-12T15:24:40 < jpa-> should have seen it
2023-02-12T15:24:54 < jbo> jpa-, indeed. not that I want to defend LTC. Just as a note in case it helps you.
2023-02-12T15:25:34 < jbo> jpa-, I guess it should be "easy enough" to bodge one between pin 7 and 7
2023-02-12T15:25:37 < jbo> 7 and 8
2023-02-12T15:25:48 < jbo> should probably be fairly close to SENSE anyway
2023-02-12T15:26:09 < jpa-> yeah, i'll have to see if i have any 0402 or 0201 caps
2023-02-12T15:26:15 < jpa-> 0603 doesn't quite fit on 0.5mm
2023-02-12T15:26:38 < jpa-> but that's probably not my main problem anyway, going to reduce the feedback resistors first
2023-02-12T15:26:40 < jbo> you could mount it vertically with one pad directly on the sense pin and then a short wire down to Vcc
2023-02-12T15:26:54 < jbo> or make a layden jar
2023-02-12T15:26:57 < jpa-> ugggly
2023-02-12T15:27:13 < jbo> well, better than not having it working. can always spin a new board once you know that shit works
2023-02-12T15:28:29 < jpa-> not fond of respinning hobby stuff
2023-02-12T15:28:49 < jbo> what other options do you have? :D
2023-02-12T15:28:55 < jbo> don't wanna bodge, don't wanna respin
2023-02-12T15:29:18 < jpa-> if i put a 0201 between pins, no-one will even see it!
2023-02-12T15:30:02 < jbo> does hobby stuff but has 0201 in stock? :D
2023-02-12T15:30:24 < jpa-> work stuff on weekdays, hobby stuff on weekends :)
2023-02-12T15:30:37 < jbo> jpa- gonna steal from work? :D
2023-02-12T15:30:43 < jpa-> but lessons learned, the switching node of high-voltage buck regulator is dirty
2023-02-12T15:31:10 < jpa-> benefits from being a sole proprietorship ;)
2023-02-12T15:31:19 < jpa-> no accountant is coming after my capacitors
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2023-02-12T15:33:20 < Laurence_b> ok wtf
2023-02-12T15:33:30 < Laurence_b> another #highaltitude project shot down
2023-02-12T15:33:33 < Laurence_b> crazy shit
2023-02-12T15:33:57 < Laurence_b> prob time to encrypt the telemetry
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2023-02-12T15:54:16 < qyx> lol really
2023-02-12T15:55:00 < braindamage> note: it's him thinking it's highaltitude stuff
2023-02-12T16:07:40 < Laurence_b> its the same balloon design
2023-02-12T16:08:53 < jpa-> and the same altitude choice also
2023-02-12T16:09:07 < jpa-> i'm prettu sure it is not the #negativealtitude or the #zeroaltitude project
2023-02-12T16:11:56 < Laurence_b> there was a WSPR balloon launched from Illinois over Alaska, it only runs during daylight so not sure if its still up
2023-02-12T16:12:15 < Laurence_b> looks like it would have been a few hundred miles away from the shootdown position tho
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2023-02-12T16:14:18 < Laurence_b> interesting ideas but wrong about original balloon https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/02/why-the-airforce-shot-down-a-us-weather-balloon.html#more
2023-02-12T16:14:39 < Laurence_b> first balloon was very advanced and prob a spy balloon
2023-02-12T16:18:10 < PaulFertser> Where's the right information with proofs about the first balloon?
2023-02-12T16:22:09 < Laurence_b> looking at it, its clearly a scaled up clone of google loon
2023-02-12T16:22:18 < Laurence_b> thats no weather balloon
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2023-02-12T17:03:34 < Steffanx-> if it was #highaltitude then there wouldve been talk about in in #highaltitude
2023-02-12T17:03:49 < Steffanx-> it in
2023-02-12T17:13:14 < jbo> jpa-, got it bodged?
2023-02-12T17:19:45 < jpa-> jbo: sure, works fine now
2023-02-12T17:19:50 < jpa-> 84% efficiency at 10W
2023-02-12T17:19:51 < jbo> jpa-, glad to hear that
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2023-02-12T22:50:54 < Laurence_b> https://cdn4.telegram-cdn.org/file/PciSI4Lr84JQPBOiWft3xot8YRcwzFMlDeRH-5wSVkFRWDKZ-RL_Yltm_RoOm9I4BOCJ7ou1Moj4MA8T1-Qmzs7ioZUHgt2oWmVeu_ZWSFP_b1L18Ma4joK6rrTn5yX4jIlZLcO5oBwXossQocBGgDSeFhpLg4bxEx0VCDTsYrezwRWItyXZWHOYesF1Hak-K0YfKdDuB9F-tpRUmUi9LLdo_Ho15Qx-7lXMvWGRScSV3K5chK0beCVMpSryGZbNsHP2zAHR3Jvb_HrCKJZEBFJ4lCQ3JWK8YkP4VFY79fnMX-5vHUwvVaxJerl
2023-02-12T22:50:55 < Laurence_b> iNnd-zBlmhxzJTdAvfDOKnuAxjg.jpg
2023-02-12T22:52:35 < specing> UwU That's a long url you have there Mr. Laurencer
2023-02-12T22:54:05 < Laurence_b> telegram is weird like that
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2023-02-12T23:11:56 < englishman> Laurence_b this balloon drama made me learn that habhub shut down. sad
2023-02-12T23:14:29 < Laurence_b> yeah, but there is "sondehub amatuer"
2023-02-12T23:14:48 < Laurence_b> all the main guys got bored
2023-02-12T23:15:20 < Laurence_b> latest one to get shot down might have been a murican amatuer radio guy by the sound of it
2023-02-12T23:15:52 < Laurence_b> ironic if we have to break the law and encrypt telemetry to stop CIA/USAF from shooting them down to cause dramaz
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2023-02-12T23:26:42 < englishman> surely if habhub still existed, norad could just go on it and see that it’s uncle bob’s shopping bag balloon
2023-02-12T23:27:39 < englishman> this whole thing seems like another gatwick drone situation
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--- Day changed ma helmi 13 2023
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2023-02-13T00:23:11 < Mangy_Dog> Is HSI the internal ossolator?
2023-02-13T00:26:03 < Steffanx-> It's an internal one yes
2023-02-13T00:26:36 < Mangy_Dog> just trying to figure out how to make a super efficiant board without having to use an external crystal 
2023-02-13T00:28:16 < qyx> efficient?
2023-02-13T00:28:32 < Mangy_Dog> i have a very limited amount of board space
2023-02-13T00:28:39 < Mangy_Dog> and removing the crystal would be useful
2023-02-13T00:28:41 < Mangy_Dog> helpfuil
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2023-02-13T00:29:43 < zyp> what is your firmware doing? does it need an accurate clock?
2023-02-13T00:30:22 < Mangy_Dog> for the most part... no not needed
2023-02-13T00:30:23 < Mangy_Dog> but
2023-02-13T00:30:34 < Mangy_Dog> i might want to do a usb mass storage
2023-02-13T00:30:49 < zyp> host or device?
2023-02-13T00:31:05 < Mangy_Dog> or at least virual serial over usb
2023-02-13T00:31:54 < Mangy_Dog> device
2023-02-13T00:31:57 < zyp> well, long story short, if you're gonna do USB on a stm32 without a crystal, you need one of the newer parts with HSI48 and CRS
2023-02-13T00:32:04 < Mangy_Dog> I need a way to get asset files to spi flash
2023-02-13T00:32:13 < zyp> the regular HSI is not precise enough to do USB
2023-02-13T00:32:51 < zyp> CRS is a clock tuning mechanism coupled to HSI48 that tunes it based on the USB framerate, which gets it precise enough
2023-02-13T00:33:46 < Mangy_Dog> yeah was just reading that
2023-02-13T00:33:49 < zyp> which stm32 do you have?
2023-02-13T00:33:49 < Mangy_Dog> been googling
2023-02-13T00:33:56 < Mangy_Dog> gonna likely be the f103 again
2023-02-13T00:34:04 < zyp> then you need a crystal
2023-02-13T00:34:07 < Mangy_Dog> its a derivitive of the tricorder 
2023-02-13T00:34:40 < zyp> the first part that got HSI48/CRS was the stm32f0 and a few other lowend parts, not sure how many highend parts have it
2023-02-13T00:34:55 < zyp> probably stm32g4
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2023-02-13T00:38:36 < Mangy_Dog> i can see while stm32s are in stock at the normal shops now... theyre hidiously expensive still :/
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2023-02-13T00:41:21 < oz4ga> Mangy_Dog: f103 can do HSI at 64MHz w.o external x-tal
2023-02-13T00:44:05 < oz4ga> many maple mini inspired blue pills do that
2023-02-13T00:46:14 < zyp> that's also a point, f103 isn't rated to run full speed with the PLL from HSI
2023-02-13T00:51:54 < josuah> Mangy_Dog: lcsc has them at normal-ish prices
2023-02-13T00:52:08 < Mangy_Dog> hmm
2023-02-13T00:52:19 < oz4ga> no it would d 72 MHz w. aan 8 MHz xtal. 64 MHz is still ok
2023-02-13T00:53:08 < Mangy_Dog> $3 per ic for f103cb.... not awfulll not great
2023-02-13T00:53:12 < Mangy_Dog> not normal prices yet though
2023-02-13T00:53:17 < Mangy_Dog> still double at least what it used to be
2023-02-13T00:54:09 < josuah> Mangy_Dog: hmm, I see 40 cents for 1k pricing?
2023-02-13T00:54:20 < Mangy_Dog> im not buying 1000 :p
2023-02-13T00:54:24 < josuah> my bad, this one is out of stock
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2023-02-13T00:54:40 < qyx> are you really expecting a MCU to be priced like a quad NAND logic IC?
2023-02-13T00:54:40 < josuah> yes seeing the same price
2023-02-13T00:54:46 < josuah> did they use to be less pricey even
2023-02-13T00:54:50 < oz4ga> just make sure you get the BT6es (128kb flash) and not the c8s (64k)
2023-02-13T00:55:23 < Mangy_Dog> qyx i used to get C8s at least ... for 50p
2023-02-13T00:55:24 < josuah> usb mass storage very often use 8051
2023-02-13T00:55:29 < Mangy_Dog> before the shortage 
2023-02-13T00:55:42 < josuah> oh you said mass storage, not pendrive dongle
2023-02-13T00:59:35 < Mangy_Dog> https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/Microcontroller-Units-MCUs-MPUs-SOCs_STMicroelectronics-STM32G070CBT6_C529338.html
2023-02-13T00:59:37 < Mangy_Dog> though
2023-02-13T00:59:39 < Mangy_Dog> this is a good price
2023-02-13T00:59:47 < Mangy_Dog> downside is it being a little slower
2023-02-13T01:00:03 < oz4ga> Mangy_Dog: can you shoe horn your tricoder code into 64K flash?
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2023-02-13T01:00:12 < Mangy_Dog> probebly not
2023-02-13T01:00:14 < zyp> Mangy_Dog, doesn't have usb
2023-02-13T01:00:19 < Mangy_Dog> oh
2023-02-13T01:00:24 < zyp> you need to step up to g0b1 if you want g0 with usb
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2023-02-13T01:01:03 < oz4ga> Mangy_Dog: Then the CBt6 is what you want. It will be expensive
2023-02-13T01:01:10 < Mangy_Dog> indeed
2023-02-13T01:02:20 < zyp> g0b1 is a fun part, it's a m0+ and clocked a little slower than f103, but apart from that it's way more capable
2023-02-13T01:02:31 < qyx> we should really put the current year in topic
2023-02-13T01:03:53 < Mangy_Dog> wow
2023-02-13T01:03:56 < Mangy_Dog> 144kb ram
2023-02-13T01:04:15 < zyp> yeah, and up to 512k flash, dual bank
2023-02-13T01:04:43 < qyx> I guess it is targetting python makers
2023-02-13T01:04:45 < josuah> since the mood seems to be at part selection: what is the smallest MCU that supports CAN you would have in mind?
2023-02-13T01:04:54 < qyx> f042
2023-02-13T01:05:07 < qyx> or to be more current, g431
2023-02-13T01:05:07 < josuah> nice! right in!
2023-02-13T01:05:08 < zyp> josuah, f042 or g0b1
2023-02-13T01:05:20 < zyp> g0b1 has fdcan
2023-02-13T01:05:31 < josuah> that too! for CAN FD bus
2023-02-13T01:05:43 < josuah> f042 looks like a lower-end part onto which the CAN was grafted
2023-02-13T01:06:21 < josuah> I did not know the g431. Fallacy of high nubmer I did not expect an STM32x4xx be lower-end than any STM32x1xx for instance
2023-02-13T01:06:28 < zyp> f042 is nice apart from the fact that it's cortex-m0 (not plus)
2023-02-13T01:06:39 < zyp> it's not, g4 is higher end
2023-02-13T01:06:48 < zyp> midrange, I'd say
2023-02-13T01:07:07 < josuah> FDCAN as well for STM32G431
2023-02-13T01:07:29 < zyp> yeah, but g0 should be lower end/cheaper than g4
2023-02-13T01:07:31 < qyx> zyp: yes but g431 is lowend among g4
2023-02-13T01:07:50 < qyx> and no, g0b was more expensive
2023-02-13T01:07:51 < josuah> aaand, I happen to have an F042 at hand :D
2023-02-13T01:07:58 < zyp> hmm
2023-02-13T01:08:06 < qyx> at least when I did one proj with g431
2023-02-13T01:08:22 < zyp> qyx, kinda makes sense, you're paying for less flash/ram
2023-02-13T01:08:23 < qyx> idk what is the situation now
2023-02-13T01:08:38 < zyp> i.e. g431 is smaller but faster than g0b
2023-02-13T01:08:43 < zyp> g0b1
2023-02-13T01:09:07 < zyp> maybe I should consider g4 for what I'm doing now
2023-02-13T01:09:09 < josuah> smaller in peripherals maybe
2023-02-13T01:09:12 < qyx> but the diff was like 0.04 €
2023-02-13T01:09:16 < zyp> but I want dual bank flash
2023-02-13T01:09:20 < josuah> STM32F411 (black pill) is also poor in peripherals iirc
2023-02-13T01:09:33 < qyx> yes because F4
2023-02-13T01:09:40 < qyx> that's old
2023-02-13T01:09:44 < josuah> oh!
2023-02-13T01:09:56 < josuah> so the part selection dance is more evolved than I though
2023-02-13T01:10:02 < josuah> have to take legacy into account
2023-02-13T01:10:13 < zyp> I'm considering putting g0b1 on the project I'm working on now, just because it got dual bank flash
2023-02-13T01:10:20 < qyx> F411 is a new part, but the F4 family is quite old
2023-02-13T01:10:30 < zyp> otherwise a g030 would probably do plenty, or maybe even c0
2023-02-13T01:10:31 < josuah> <zyp> apart from the fact that it's cortex-m0 (not plus)
2023-02-13T01:10:32 < josuah> what do you use the extra plus-features for?
2023-02-13T01:11:07 < zyp> well, f042 is a usb mcu, perfect for small usb devices
2023-02-13T01:11:18 < zyp> except I like putting custom usb bootloaders on usb devices
2023-02-13T01:11:34 < zyp> and it's a bit hassle to do a bootloader on a m0
2023-02-13T01:11:50 < zyp> it lacks the SCB_VTOR register for remapping the vector table
2023-02-13T01:12:37 < zyp> it got added back to m0+
2023-02-13T01:13:22 < josuah> thank you, one mighty fact to keep in mind
2023-02-13T01:13:47 < zyp> effectively what it means is that it's inconvenient to put your application image anywhere else than start of flash, like you would if you want to put a bootloader image in front of it
2023-02-13T01:14:04 < zyp> there's workarounds, but as I said; inconvenient
2023-02-13T01:14:06 < josuah> related: the table under here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Cortex-M#Silicon_customization
2023-02-13T01:14:42 < zyp> also, speaking of bootloaders: the reason I want dual bank flash is so I can bootload over i2c without a dedicated bootloader
2023-02-13T01:15:19 < josuah> workarounds such as reimplementing interrupts from software etc.
2023-02-13T01:15:20 < Mangy_Dog> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/695271473308237985/1074468739015254128/image.png
2023-02-13T01:15:36 < josuah> to support the offset table from the bootloader receiving everything
2023-02-13T01:16:44 < josuah> Mangy_Dog: is that an FTDI along with the f103?
2023-02-13T01:16:51 < Mangy_Dog> yes
2023-02-13T01:16:54 < Mangy_Dog> its a graphics chip
2023-02-13T01:17:05 < josuah> I did not know they did those
2023-02-13T01:17:52 < josuah> Mangy_Dog: and then U2 is RAM?
2023-02-13T01:18:11 < Mangy_Dog> flash
2023-02-13T01:18:22 < Mangy_Dog> asset storage
2023-02-13T01:19:08 < josuah> zyp: I need to try a bootloader some day, that sounds fun
2023-02-13T01:19:23 < josuah> FDCAN might have been mostly pushed forward by the need for bootlaoders
2023-02-13T01:19:31 < josuah> s/laod/load/
2023-02-13T01:19:51 < josuah> among other things I guess...
2023-02-13T01:21:08 < josuah> oooh! so that is why you might want signed bootloaders:
2023-02-13T01:21:27 < josuah> having a robust way to turn a device into bootloader mode implies...
2023-02-13T01:21:59 < josuah> - very robust against bricking a device remotely
2023-02-13T01:22:39 < josuah> - but then also very possible for an attacker to access that bootloader
2023-02-13T01:25:03 < josuah> turning on bootloader mode remotely is not so risky if only signed bootloader are accepted
2023-02-13T01:27:37 < josuah> eager to have time to try doing a CAN-based bootloader
2023-02-13T01:27:55 < josuah> thanks!
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2023-02-13T11:09:49 < zyp> qyx, ref. the accelerometer stuff we talked about, iim-42351 is the one we're looking at changing to
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2023-02-13T11:26:40 < qyx> zyp: afaik itis the same zyp
2023-02-13T11:27:38 < zyp> what is the same?
2023-02-13T11:28:00 < zyp> that you changed to?
2023-02-13T11:28:36 < qyx> yeah, I'll check later
2023-02-13T11:28:52 < zyp> did it work better for you?
2023-02-13T11:28:54 < qyx> it is software compatible with the previous tdk o e
2023-02-13T11:29:36 < qyx> I have it on some protos but didn't test the last batch because suspended now
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2023-02-13T12:44:45 < karlp> on https://www.acwifi.net/23700.html, image 13 or so, the string of what looks like lan transformers (new style, made from little common mode chokes isntead of the old ones) what's going on there? is it something else? or are those all needed?
2023-02-13T12:44:48  * karlp counts
2023-02-13T12:45:02 < karlp> ok, 16, does actualyl make sense for four ports then, of gigabit, I guess maybe it does?
2023-02-13T12:45:11 < karlp> looked weird as well with the gap in the ports though?
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2023-02-13T13:56:52 < jbo> Steffanx-, aisler is already fabbing now
2023-02-13T13:57:18 < jbo> so far an okay experience
2023-02-13T14:02:58 < Steffanx-> Party
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2023-02-13T18:11:00 < jbo> qyx, you around?
2023-02-13T18:15:11 < Steffanx-> He's always around. He's just hiding right now
2023-02-13T18:15:22 < jbo> :)
2023-02-13T18:15:33 < jbo> probably having a beer with his new president
2023-02-13T18:22:12 < Steffanx-> Beer is so overrated 
2023-02-13T18:53:36 < qyx> we don't have a new president
2023-02-13T18:53:54 < qyx> jbo: partially
2023-02-13T18:54:08 < qyx> on my way to a psychiatry
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2023-02-13T19:23:13 < Steffanx-> Wuut.. qyx?
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2023-02-13T20:49:35 < jbo> ah, I thought qyx is cz
2023-02-13T20:52:22 < Steffanx-> Hah. You're not the only one 
2023-02-13T20:54:29 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/pxp6010.jpg   been using this connector on ebike for 7 years now, there is some visible signs of wear ;)
2023-02-13T20:54:51 < jpa-> interestingly contact resistance is still just 6 milliohms, even on that one pin :)
2023-02-13T21:04:22 < zyp> the one that looks folded over?
2023-02-13T21:04:57 < zyp> is this something you connect and disconnect often?
2023-02-13T21:05:07 < jpa-> yes
2023-02-13T21:05:15 < zyp> why?
2023-02-13T21:05:44 < jpa-> i charge batteries indoors, and i designed it so that the controller is with the battery
2023-02-13T21:05:53 < zyp> ah
2023-02-13T21:06:07 < zyp> and you keep your bike outdoors?
2023-02-13T21:06:17 < jpa-> yeah
2023-02-13T21:06:39 < jpa-> or in the shared bike storage, where you aren't allowed to charge
2023-02-13T21:07:03 < jpa-> switched to amphenol C016 now, i'll see if it fares better
2023-02-13T21:07:06 < zyp> clever, better burn down your apartment than your bike shed
2023-02-13T21:07:27 < jpa-> better burn where there is fire alarm :)
2023-02-13T21:07:48 < zyp> a fire alarm isn't gonna stop a lithium fire
2023-02-13T21:08:27 < braindamage> maybe it's an extremely loud alarm
2023-02-13T21:09:03 < jpa-> i'm pretty confident in lifepo4 anyway ;)
2023-02-13T21:09:36 < zyp> sure, I'm just saying the rule that you can't charge in the bike shed is silly
2023-02-13T21:09:49 < jpa-> yeah, not sure how binding it really is
2023-02-13T21:10:06 < jpa-> and whether it is actually someone penny counting electricity, or maybe some insurance rules
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2023-02-13T21:12:52 < jpa-> looks like it is at least insurance recommendation, though having central fire alarm for the bike storage would be an alternative (and probably make sense in any case)
2023-02-13T21:14:25 < jpa-> i doubt a ebike-sized battery would really be that much of a problem for fire department, carry it out and extinguish what remains
2023-02-13T21:14:37 < jpa-> (assuming timely detection)
2023-02-13T21:16:08 < zyp> yeah, probably won't burn down your house, just smoke damage it before you throw out the battery
2023-02-13T21:16:25 < zyp> either way, I'd rather that happen in a shed than in my living room
2023-02-13T21:18:02 < jpa-> in this case the bike storage is just a room in the building - a real shed would be too cold for charging anyway
2023-02-13T21:18:24 < jpa-> though because the storage doubles as putinshelter, fire probably wouldn't spread :)
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2023-02-13T21:53:48 < karlp> lol. I had to read that a couple of times first :|
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2023-02-13T22:03:50 < Laurence_b> >surely if habhub still existed, norad could just go on it and see that it’s uncle bob’s shopping bag balloon
2023-02-13T22:04:12 < karlp> "hi, can you make your C library more friendly to my assembly project by replacing the enums with #defines and replacing the C startup code with some assembly startup code?" 
2023-02-13T22:04:13 < Laurence_b> >implying they arent going to "sondehub amateur" to find balloons to shoot down and cause drama
2023-02-13T22:04:19 < karlp> fucking wot mate?
2023-02-13T22:04:59 < Laurence_b> reee muh teensy4 is still misbehaving
2023-02-13T22:05:28 < Laurence_b> there are three AA cells in series in a datalogger, one is 1.47V, one 800mV, third is -950mV
2023-02-13T22:05:29 < Laurence_b> wtf
2023-02-13T22:05:30 < qyx> karlp: :>
2023-02-13T22:05:42 < Laurence_b> how is this even possible
2023-02-13T22:06:06 < qyx> jbo: nope, but both .sk and .cz are now somewhat okish wrt presidents
2023-02-13T22:06:12 < Laurence_b> all three cells are same age (nearly new), datalogger went out to a user and came back in this state
2023-02-13T22:09:14 < karlp> had someone here actually used this: https://www.alphalabinc.com/product/lna10/fdfg or was it just something they'd found?
2023-02-13T22:13:55 < Steffanx-> You broke the link with your fdfg
2023-02-13T22:14:14 < karlp> https://www.alphalabinc.com/product/lna10/
2023-02-13T22:18:10 < jpa-> interesting device, i once considered making something like that
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2023-02-13T22:31:17 < karlp> price is pretty good, and I know I sure couldn't make one.
2023-02-13T22:31:22 < karlp> checkout figure 7 here though: https://www.analog.com/en/app-notes/an-159.html
2023-02-13T22:32:00 < karlp> mu-metal->copper->steel for isolation
2023-02-13T22:38:49 < karlp> figure 19 is pretty nuts too, I'm so far from being analol pro :)
2023-02-13T22:41:09 < braindamage> the secret is in the butter bisquits
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2023-02-13T22:42:09 < karlp> "If you would like Linear Technology to verify your cookie tin for repurposing, please make certain to send it in with its original contents"
2023-02-13T22:42:40 < braindamage> told you
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2023-02-13T23:17:15 < Laurence_b> https://docs.rs-online.com/4d00/A700000006710944.pdf
2023-02-13T23:17:26 < Laurence_b> found my issue, AA cells shorted in this holder
2023-02-13T23:18:34 < specing> hyperloop running on AAs?
2023-02-13T23:19:43 < specing> Laurence_b: https://speedlux.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/aa-batteries-satire.png
2023-02-13T23:20:00 < specing> is this a hyperloop car
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2023-02-13T23:20:45 < Laurence_b21> looks like leakage current is from a LDO, but not an issue for the batteries
2023-02-13T23:21:01 < Laurence_b21> for once my Teensy isnt the issue, its cheap shit battery holder
2023-02-13T23:21:20 < Laurence_b21> I think the two top cell on page 2 figure shorted
2023-02-13T23:22:12 < specing> Laurence_b21: is this a hyperloop car? https://speedlux.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/aa-batteries-satire.png
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--- Day changed ti helmi 14 2023
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2023-02-14T00:29:26 < Laurence_b> lol specing
2023-02-14T00:34:16 < Laurence_b> hmm looks like a chinese clone of Keystone 2487CN
2023-02-14T00:54:35 < Laurence_b> https://imgur.com/U2z87Ps
2023-02-14T00:54:37 < Laurence_b> hmm
2023-02-14T00:54:55 < Laurence_b> bottom two cells are dead
2023-02-14T01:01:27 < Laurence_b> maybe aliens
2023-02-14T01:01:45 < Laurence_b> cells were used for an anal probing
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2023-02-14T01:21:22 < Laurence_b> I'm going to have to rip the holder apart and check internal clearances
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2023-02-14T04:53:55 < machinehum> https://www.kicad.org/blog/2023/02/Version-7.0.0-Released/
2023-02-14T04:54:30 < machinehum> Properties Panel + Pack & Move Footprint Tool are clutch
2023-02-14T04:54:52 < machinehum> Two features I missed from Autism
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2023-02-14T09:13:43 < jadew> chatGPT pretends is an SQL server: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHgsnMlafwU
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2023-02-14T10:39:49 < jpa-> hmm, it seems that my code changes are more effective when i actually remember to load them to the mcu
2023-02-14T10:44:28 < jadew> surprisingly, that's how they work best 
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2023-02-14T11:14:34 < benishor> that reminds me of the coitus interruptus I used to do when using ftp: make a remote folder and upload all files near it
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2023-02-14T11:33:40 < braindamage> did it still make you pregnant?
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2023-02-14T12:31:02 < mawk> look at my beautiful setup https://i.imgur.com/nvkeiYQ.jpg
2023-02-14T12:31:08 < mawk> and the script output: https://i.imgur.com/WAZnVTN.png
2023-02-14T12:31:25 < mawk> it continuously acquires data from a fluke and µcurrent both modified to run from usb power
2023-02-14T12:31:46 < mawk> with automatic switching of the µcurrent range
2023-02-14T12:32:06 < karlp> is that mmwave shits?
2023-02-14T12:32:13 < mawk> yeah
2023-02-14T12:32:18 < mawk> and nb-iot/lte-m
2023-02-14T12:32:26 < mawk> on the board below the radar board
2023-02-14T12:32:43 < mawk> with r510s-01b from ublox
2023-02-14T12:34:00 < karlp> the fuck is the relay board doing without power?
2023-02-14T12:34:19 < mawk> it's a picture taken before I wire it up
2023-02-14T12:34:22 < mawk> now it has power
2023-02-14T12:35:24 < mawk> https://i.imgur.com/g78SGt3.jpg
2023-02-14T12:35:28 < mawk> it's like this when wired
2023-02-14T12:37:08 < karlp> (you forgot on ething in that second picture...)
2023-02-14T12:38:43 < mawk> https://i.imgur.com/NwhYLwr.jpg 2.0 version
2023-02-14T12:38:47 < mawk> yeah
2023-02-14T12:38:58 < mawk> but they're firing me anyway
2023-02-14T12:39:09 < mawk> so you can call them and tell them I do drugs in the company toilet it won't make it worse lol
2023-02-14T12:39:10 < karlp> so what's ronald like?
2023-02-14T12:39:15 < mawk> hairy
2023-02-14T12:41:05 < mawk> I made very professional holes in the side of the µcurrent to convert it to usb
2023-02-14T12:41:09 < mawk> using a drill and some files
2023-02-14T12:42:03 < karlp> isn't https://brymen.eu/shop/bm869s/ cheaper than a ucurrent + a fluke?
2023-02-14T12:42:37 < karlp> it doesn't look like you're doing 10s of nA but 10s of uA.
2023-02-14T12:43:02 < karlp> the 1mV/nA range, sure, you can't j ust throw a better meter at it,
2023-02-14T12:44:44 < mawk> I'm switching between µA and mA
2023-02-14T12:44:49 < mawk> in the screeshot it's in µA yeah
2023-02-14T12:44:59 < mawk> the sleep current is around 4µA so I don't need the nA range
2023-02-14T12:45:14 < mawk> yeah I guess that would be cheaper if I had to buy it new
2023-02-14T12:45:20 < mawk> but I just use parts lying around in drawers to make that
2023-02-14T12:45:42 < mawk> the fluke was already modified by someone else to be on USB power and disconnect the buttons so I used it
2023-02-14T12:45:54 < karlp> fair enough :)
2023-02-14T12:46:40 < Steffanx-> Lol. Still slacking and getting fired Mawk?
2023-02-14T12:46:46 < mawk> yeah
2023-02-14T12:46:52 < mawk> I didn't slack but they're still firing me
2023-02-14T12:47:01 < mawk> so now I'm slacking since I don't have any stakes left
2023-02-14T12:47:07 < Steffanx-> Awh, for real?
2023-02-14T12:47:16 < mawk> yeah
2023-02-14T12:47:22 < Steffanx-> That's fucked.
2023-02-14T12:47:30 < Steffanx-> You're*
2023-02-14T12:47:33 < mawk> they're using that as an opportunity to downsize
2023-02-14T12:47:37 < mawk> because they hired too much
2023-02-14T12:47:45 < mawk> I'm not the only one getting fired/contract not renewed
2023-02-14T12:48:14 < mawk> well if I can find a new job as easily as I found this one then it should be good
2023-02-14T12:51:14 < mawk> modifying the µcurrent to change the range was easier than to do it with the fluke; you can't change the range with the serial interface
2023-02-14T12:51:21 < mawk> you can click all the buttons but not turn the dial
2023-02-14T12:52:04 < Steffanx-> It must be damn easy for you to find a new job there, mawk
2023-02-14T12:52:21 < mawk> well there's not much in delft and I don't like to take the transports
2023-02-14T12:52:39 < mawk> there is one in delft that fits but they want fpga experience
2023-02-14T12:52:45 < mawk> which I have something like 3 days total of experience
2023-02-14T12:52:54 < mawk> but I still have 2.5 months to learn it I guess
2023-02-14T12:53:03 < Steffanx-> I'll not tell you we're hiring here :P
2023-02-14T12:53:13 < mawk> lol
2023-02-14T12:53:21 < mawk> it's a bit far away
2023-02-14T12:54:07 < mawk> if they knew what I did in the office they would've fired me much earlier
2023-02-14T12:54:16 < mawk> but that secret will die with me, and all of IRC
2023-02-14T12:55:08 < Steffanx-> Yes. Sadly this Zuiderzeelijn is still not a thing
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2023-02-14T13:14:04 < Steffanx-> Oh you're contract would end anyway, mawk?
2023-02-14T13:14:25 < Steffanx-> So you're not being fired, they just don't give you a new contract.
2023-02-14T13:14:57 < mawk> no not mine
2023-02-14T13:14:59 < mawk> I had a permanent contract
2023-02-14T13:15:03 < mawk> I had a permanent contract that they terminated
2023-02-14T13:15:05 < mawk> and gave a 2 months contract instead as "trial period"
2023-02-14T13:15:09 < mawk> and decided to not re-hire me anyway even though I did what they wanted
2023-02-14T13:15:43 < mawk> because they were too loose with the money and hired too many people
2023-02-14T13:15:51 < Steffanx-> Sounds like a nice setup
2023-02-14T13:16:11 < mawk> I'm 26 so it's good, but they're firing a woman that's like 55, she'll never find work again probably 
2023-02-14T13:18:38 < mawk> I received my clone mifare classic tags from AliExpress 
2023-02-14T13:18:44 < mawk> you can write to block 0 on them
2023-02-14T13:18:47 < mawk> so clone the UID
2023-02-14T13:19:13 < mawk> you can use an android phone to write them, at least gen 2 and gen 3 ones
2023-02-14T13:19:27 < mawk> for the regular "UID" you need a proxmark3 or whatever equivalent 
2023-02-14T13:19:52 < mawk> gen2 and gen3 are also called CUID and FUID
2023-02-14T13:20:10 < mawk> FUID is the one that passes all clone checks from most secure readers because block 0 is write-once
2023-02-14T13:20:19 < mawk> once you clone it it behaves exactly like a normal tag
2023-02-14T13:20:54 < braindamage> clone a coworker's badge and cleanup the office a day after you're fired?
2023-02-14T13:21:03 < mawk> lol
2023-02-14T13:21:11 < mawk> they didn't install the badge system yet
2023-02-14T13:21:40 < mawk> also if they're not stupid and choose a unique key it's much harder to clone non-destructively 
2023-02-14T13:21:45 < mawk> the key is 6 bytes
2023-02-14T13:21:55 < mawk> cloning works usually because installers don't change default keys
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2023-02-14T13:22:27 < mawk> you have list of keys online, like for the Vigik pass system in France that you find on 95% of residential buildings 
2023-02-14T13:22:56 < karlp> surprise surprise, most locks are privacy locks...
2023-02-14T13:47:33 < Steffanx-> Mawk: Totally depends on what this woman did for the company 
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2023-02-14T13:48:12 < mawk> some HR stuff
2023-02-14T13:48:14 < mawk> kinda 
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2023-02-14T13:49:09 < Steffanx-> She hired you. that's what gets her fired.
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2023-02-14T13:56:22 < jadew> mawk, need something more accurate? http://5.12.146.50/stuff/20210428_135830_.jpg
2023-02-14T13:56:44 < mawk> lol
2023-02-14T13:56:46 < mawk> nice
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2023-02-14T14:01:21 < Steffanx-> I just use the Nordic ppk2 
2023-02-14T14:03:54 < karlp> jadew: is that really expecting us to believe is has useful fA figures?
2023-02-14T14:04:29 < Steffanx-> Absolutely.
2023-02-14T14:05:11 < Steffanx-> Except that jadew didn't have it warm up for the required amount of time.
2023-02-14T14:06:40 < jadew> karlp, my current source was set to something like 0.12345 whatever
2023-02-14T14:06:42 < jadew> I don't remember
2023-02-14T14:06:55 < jadew> so the last digits are off either from the meter or the source, or both
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2023-02-14T14:20:32 < benishor> why is it reading 1.012345 then?
2023-02-14T14:20:48 < benishor> I mean the 1nA in front
2023-02-14T14:20:52 < jadew> yeah, I meant 1.012345 whatever
2023-02-14T14:20:53 < jadew> yeah
2023-02-14T14:21:17 < benishor> so what do you trust more? your current source or the meter?
2023-02-14T14:21:50 < benishor> it'd be nice if you'd add more detail, as to what was used in that picture
2023-02-14T14:22:17 < benishor> those 16 segment displays are cute af
2023-02-14T14:22:17 < jadew> a keithley 6485 and a keithley current source
2023-02-14T14:22:42 < jadew> took that picture last year or so
2023-02-14T14:23:19 < mawk> the mailman is late
2023-02-14T14:23:22 < mawk> I want my dope
2023-02-14T14:26:35 < benishor> holy crap that keithley is expensive
2023-02-14T14:26:52 < benishor> you bought it for your own use? are you making money out of it?
2023-02-14T14:29:20 < jadew> I don't even remember what I needed it for
2023-02-14T14:29:28 < jadew> I think I used it once
2023-02-14T14:30:57 < benishor> so you paid 3k+ eur just for one usage?
2023-02-14T14:31:15 < jadew> no, I think it was slightly above 1k
2023-02-14T14:31:24 < benishor> ah, not bad then
2023-02-14T14:31:29 < jadew> I should probably sell it
2023-02-14T14:31:43 < benishor> got a pic with your lab equipment?
2023-02-14T14:32:00 < jadew> heh
2023-02-14T14:32:59 < jadew> let me check, I haven't took a picture of the lab in a while
2023-02-14T14:33:43 < benishor> great timing for taking a new one :)
2023-02-14T14:33:51 < jadew> heh, it's messy, so no
2023-02-14T14:34:38 < benishor> mine's messy all of the time, so why not?
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2023-02-14T14:35:45 < aandrew> that's a crazy meter. to be useful down at those currents youd have to get it calibrated, stable env, etc, no?
2023-02-14T14:36:06 < aandrew> yeah my lab is constantly messy
2023-02-14T14:36:22 < jadew> aandrew, it was good enough from the get go... I didn't need to squeeze everything out of it
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2023-02-14T14:37:43 < jadew> benishor, this is the lab: http://5.12.146.50/stuff/20201119_003737.jpg
2023-02-14T14:38:00 < jadew> with this being the most notable addition since that picture: http://5.12.146.50/stuff/20210526_144007.jpg
2023-02-14T14:38:16 < jadew> lots of stuff is not on display tho, because I don't normally use it
2023-02-14T14:39:00 < zyp> microwave amplifier, for when your food isn't heating fast enough
2023-02-14T14:39:21 < jadew> pretty much, does half a watt at 12 GHz, which is really nice
2023-02-14T14:39:46 < jadew> I needed that to design a limiter for the 12 GHz prescalers
2023-02-14T14:39:57 < jadew> in fact it does more than half a watt, but that's all I needed
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2023-02-14T14:43:27 < benishor> jadew: that's very nice, not so messy
2023-02-14T14:43:43 < benishor> what you going that high in frequency for?
2023-02-14T14:43:46 < jadew> that's because I took the picture when it wasn't messy :)
2023-02-14T14:43:52 < benishor> ah, you mentioned the prescalers
2023-02-14T14:44:04 < benishor> I see you also have a fume extractor system
2023-02-14T14:44:23 < benishor> it looks a bit hard to reach those top shelf boxes though
2023-02-14T14:44:24 < jadew> yeah, it vents everything straight out
2023-02-14T14:44:36 < jadew> it is, but I manage
2023-02-14T14:44:43 < benishor> is that in a house or a flat?
2023-02-14T14:44:50 < jadew> flat
2023-02-14T14:45:01 < jadew> planning your break-in? :)
2023-02-14T14:45:38 < jadew> I don't have enough space for all the stuff
2023-02-14T14:45:42 < jadew> a house would be great
2023-02-14T14:45:57 < jadew> but I think I would extend beyond my means anyway
2023-02-14T14:46:19 < benishor> yeah, same here
2023-02-14T14:46:38 < benishor> I have a space constraint lab, doubling my home office 
2023-02-14T14:46:53 < jadew> same here
2023-02-14T14:47:11 < jadew> I also have a production space, but I only deposit things there
2023-02-14T14:47:17 < jadew> like... lab things
2023-02-14T14:48:01 < benishor> mine's terribly  messy atm
2023-02-14T14:48:07 < benishor> due to lack of space and storing too many shits
2023-02-14T14:48:33 < jadew> yeah, hoarding is a big problem
2023-02-14T14:48:49 < benishor> https://photos.app.goo.gl/2WS2cxAuDnBfoQXe7
2023-02-14T14:49:18 < jadew> looks so well lit
2023-02-14T14:49:32 < benishor> yeah, I invested a lot in light, my eyes are fucked
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2023-02-14T14:49:41 < benishor> regarding hoarding: I'm luckily married and have a kid so I must restrain. I have a friend, same age which lives along
2023-02-14T14:49:45 < benishor> alone, in a 4 room flat
2023-02-14T14:50:01 < benishor> needless to say it's all full of retro computers and all sort of junk
2023-02-14T14:50:11 < jadew> the dream
2023-02-14T14:50:41 < benishor> that's taking a toll though
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2023-02-14T14:50:55 < benishor> it fills up your mental stack and doesn't let you do anything
2023-02-14T14:51:06 < jadew> that's also true
2023-02-14T14:51:07 < benishor> ideally I would want to live in a house
2023-02-14T14:51:16 < benishor> and have a larger space for my lab and radio corner
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2023-02-14T14:53:07 < benishor> not to mention enough yard for an antenna farm :D
2023-02-14T14:53:34 < jadew> yeah, that would be nice too
2023-02-14T14:54:03 < jadew> I have a radio I never got to use properly, simply because I don't have where to extend an antenna
2023-02-14T14:55:07 < benishor> jadew: are you a ham? what radio?
2023-02-14T14:56:34 < jadew> benishor, an Icom 756 PRO
2023-02-14T14:56:34 < mawk> jadew: you're the microcurrent expert here
2023-02-14T14:56:42 < mawk> why does my current juggle up and down randomly even when my µC is in sleep
2023-02-14T14:56:48 < mawk> is it because of my supercaps?
2023-02-14T14:57:06 < mawk> I have two 5F supercaps more or less in parallel, with a self inbetween
2023-02-14T14:57:21 < jadew> mawk, it could be noise, small current measurements require shielding on both sense lines
2023-02-14T14:57:34 < benishor> jadew: cool radio. what's your callsign?
2023-02-14T14:57:37 < jadew> high accuracy current measurements are done with a triaxial cable
2023-02-14T14:57:43 < jpa-> mawk: have your supercaps been charged for at least 24 hours?
2023-02-14T14:57:45 < mawk> https://i.imgur.com/NwhYLwr.jpg
2023-02-14T14:57:50 < mawk> I guess that's not shielded enough
2023-02-14T14:57:52 < mawk> no, for 2h
2023-02-14T14:57:59 < mawk> but they periodically get discharged, the µC wakes up every hour
2023-02-14T14:58:04 < jadew> mawk, if you get high spikes, it could be something else
2023-02-14T14:58:05 < mawk> so they never really attain steady state
2023-02-14T14:58:11 < mawk> I don't know about spikes, I didn't scope it
2023-02-14T14:58:22 < mawk> I'm measuring current as average over 5s 
2023-02-14T14:58:27 < jadew> benishor, I don't have one, I wanted to get a call sign, but couldn't really find the time and motivation
2023-02-14T14:58:32 < jpa-> as long as they've been charged for a while, the oxide layer should be in working state so that the leakage is within spec
2023-02-14T14:58:41 < jadew> I just listen to discussions sometimes
2023-02-14T14:58:56 < benishor> jadew: you should really. it'll be a breeze
2023-02-14T14:59:08 < jadew> I don't know the terminology
2023-02-14T14:59:26 < benishor> you can read it. there's also an online trainer
2023-02-14T14:59:50 < mawk> what do you mean by sense line jadew 
2023-02-14T14:59:54 < mawk> the two lines around the shunt?
2023-02-14T14:59:59 < jadew> yeah
2023-02-14T15:00:08 < mawk> that's just internally in the µcurrent, and if I didn't butcher it too much it should be as shielded as the day it was born
2023-02-14T15:00:14 < jadew> you need something like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triaxial_cable
2023-02-14T15:00:15 < jpa-> mawk: you could try a load of a megaohm resistor and see if the noise persists, to determine whether it is just your measurement setup
2023-02-14T15:00:29 < mawk> what comes out is (I suppose) a buffered and amplified voltage reading of that shunt potential difference
2023-02-14T15:00:40 < mawk> right
2023-02-14T15:00:43 < mawk> thanks
2023-02-14T15:01:01 < jpa-> at low enough currents, even moving your hand can change enough capacitance to offset the average
2023-02-14T15:01:07 < mawk> yeah
2023-02-14T15:01:15 < mawk> well when holding the battery it just shoots below 0
2023-02-14T15:01:26 < mawk> it makes the battery voltage drop and the supercap starts charging it, which is a bad idea since it's not rechargeable
2023-02-14T15:01:31 < jadew> benishor, you're a ham?
2023-02-14T15:01:38 < mawk> but I think it's the heat from my hand doing that not the capacitance in this case
2023-02-14T15:03:01 < benishor> jadew: yes, YO6SSW. here's the exam simulator http://examyo.scienceontheweb.net/
2023-02-14T15:03:24 < benishor> jadew: I erected an antenna on top of my building
2023-02-14T15:03:38 < jadew> benishor, thanks, I'll give it a go
2023-02-14T15:04:16 < benishor> jadew: some more links: https://yo3ram.ro and https://www.radioamator.ro/misc/REGULAMENT_ANCOM.pdf
2023-02-14T15:04:42 < benishor> jadew: do it, I am sure you will have no problem getting it. and we need our ranks increased
2023-02-14T15:05:01 < benishor> old hams start to die out and there aren't many younger ones stepping in
2023-02-14T15:05:01 < braindamage> ham radio is a dying hobby
2023-02-14T15:05:22 < benishor> they said the same about morse code and guess what, I'm having so much fun using it
2023-02-14T15:05:33 < specing> benishor: yeah, it's not vegan
2023-02-14T15:05:42 < benishor> it actually saw an increase in its usage during the last years
2023-02-14T15:05:45 < specing> soy radio is the new thing
2023-02-14T15:05:58 < specing> braindamage:^ :)
2023-02-14T15:06:00 < benishor> soy boy radio
2023-02-14T15:06:01 < braindamage> the increase is mostly due to cheap sdr available, yes
2023-02-14T15:06:12 < benishor> braindamage: I meant morse code usage
2023-02-14T15:06:47 < braindamage> I have no comments on morse
2023-02-14T15:07:43 < benishor> there are many cool things one can play with: digital modes, satellites, meteor scatter, sstv, GHz range comms
2023-02-14T15:08:03 < benishor> I'm still in love with HF and morse code
2023-02-14T15:12:38 < benishor> jadew: one more https://radioamator.testry.ro/
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2023-02-14T15:19:33 < jadew> benishor, some questions have no correct answer
2023-02-14T15:19:55 < jadew> I can only guess what they expect
2023-02-14T15:21:30 < benishor> jadew: felt the earthquake?
2023-02-14T15:21:31 < benishor> now?
2023-02-14T15:21:37 < jadew> benishor, no
2023-02-14T15:21:41 < jadew> just now?
2023-02-14T15:21:43 < benishor> http://alerta.infp.ro/#
2023-02-14T15:21:47 < benishor> just now, couple of minutes ago
2023-02-14T15:21:57 < benishor> I thought my veins were beating too hard and moving me around the chair
2023-02-14T15:22:00 < jadew> nope, but I have a bag waiting at the door
2023-02-14T15:22:13 < benishor> fuck me
2023-02-14T15:22:35 < jadew> I thought there was one on saturday, but that was just paranoia
2023-02-14T15:23:33 < benishor> needless to say I hate earthquakes too
2023-02-14T15:23:39 < benishor> what floor are you living at?
2023-02-14T15:23:56 < jadew> 1, but I used to live at 8, that was interesting
2023-02-14T15:24:16 < jadew> my plan currently is to either run out really fast or jump out the window and roll over away from the building
2023-02-14T15:25:38 < jadew> I got only one wrong, but because I misclicked, I wanted to click on the correct one
2023-02-14T15:25:51 < jadew> looks like I'd pass
2023-02-14T15:27:03 < jadew> I did the one from yo3ram, but it doesn't include nomenclature question
2023-02-14T15:27:09 < jadew> QSL, QRP, etc
2023-02-14T15:27:47 < jadew> just base level electronics
2023-02-14T15:38:02 < ventYl> benishor: turkey is not that far
2023-02-14T15:40:40 < benishor> jadew:  you will definitely pass if you run three dry run tests
2023-02-14T15:41:10 < benishor> ventYl: yeah, but fuck that. this one was 5.7 richter, 10Km beneath the ground
2023-02-14T15:41:49 < benishor> I'm also pondering whether to run outside rapidly
2023-02-14T15:42:01 < benishor> in case of a bigger one or stay under the inner doors
2023-02-14T15:42:19 < benishor> I also live at 1 but I have a small kid and I'm not sure how fast I would manage to run out
2023-02-14T15:42:26 < benishor> before the stairs fall
2023-02-14T15:43:29 < rustyaxe> Could you lower the childling from a window with rope or such?
2023-02-14T15:44:04 < rustyaxe> a single floor, an adult would most certainly survive the jump, childling eh
2023-02-14T15:44:16 < karlp> can't imagine in any meaningfully short time frame.
2023-02-14T15:44:19 < jadew> benishor, if you stay in and it collapses, you will probably die
2023-02-14T15:44:44 < rustyaxe> karlp: Tie rope to childling, toss out window and lower to the floor outside. Jump to follow? 
2023-02-14T15:44:44 < jadew> the odds of survival are low, given what we've seen in turkey
2023-02-14T15:44:51 < jadew> the ones that do survive are the exceptions
2023-02-14T15:45:04 < jadew> and sure some places in the hose might increase your odds, but they're still slim to none
2023-02-14T15:45:08 < karlp> they also don't have building codes to even sort of stand up to quakes though.
2023-02-14T15:45:10 < rustyaxe> ya getting out of buildings quickly is best, especially in places where earthquakes arent so common as to be part of the building code
2023-02-14T15:45:16 < karlp> that's a pretty fucking massive part of it.
2023-02-14T15:45:31 < jadew> karlp, yeah, the new ones seem to have collapsed first
2023-02-14T15:45:39 < ventYl> karlp: it seems that they do have. but there is a massive corruption, so many buildings simply violate it
2023-02-14T15:45:43 < karlp> the old shitty ones collpased in the last earth quake.
2023-02-14T15:45:54 < karlp> ventYl: that's effectively not having it IMO
2023-02-14T15:46:05 < jadew> roping down is a variant only in other cases, like a fire or something
2023-02-14T15:46:13 < jadew> in case of an earthquake you don't have time for that
2023-02-14T15:46:26 < jadew> unless it's the only option - say the staircase is down and the building is still standing
2023-02-14T15:46:33 < jadew> you kinda want to get out somehow
2023-02-14T15:47:03 < jadew> in that case you need to invest in a cord that's twice the height of where you are + a couple of meters and learn how to rapel, rope only - it's not difficult
2023-02-14T15:47:10 < rustyaxe> its still an option sometimes.. Probably enough so to have a suitable rope harvest.. And maybe one day? you'll have some other reason to toss childling out the window
2023-02-14T15:47:14 < jadew> (not easy either, but not difficult for an emergency)
2023-02-14T15:47:18 < rustyaxe> harness not harvest
2023-02-14T15:47:19 < karlp> you only need double length ifyou give a shit about gettig your rope back
2023-02-14T15:47:35 < jadew> karlp, it's easier to rapel with a double rope
2023-02-14T15:47:41 < rustyaxe> hmm, i could see advantage to being able to tie the rope off and then climb down it yourself yea
2023-02-14T15:47:49 < jadew> with just one length of wire it's much more difficult to do it in a controlled fashion
2023-02-14T15:48:02 < jadew> *cord
2023-02-14T15:48:10 < karlp> git gud...
2023-02-14T15:48:19 < karlp> or, lower people, don't try and rapell
2023-02-14T15:48:28 < jadew> that's also an option
2023-02-14T15:48:31 < benishor> jadew: running on the stairs during the movement is not an option
2023-02-14T15:48:35 < jadew> and then what do you do? jump?
2023-02-14T15:48:36 < benishor> stairs are the first to collapse
2023-02-14T15:48:48 < benishor> I am thinking of making a badass solid diner table
2023-02-14T15:48:57 < jadew> benishor, sure, but they don't collapse immediately
2023-02-14T15:49:08 < jadew> you'll be like 3 seconds on the stairs
2023-02-14T15:49:10 < benishor> jadew: they're pretty much the first ones from what I've heard
2023-02-14T15:49:14 < braindamage> ventYl: wrt turkey, no, you're way too far
2023-02-14T15:49:20 < benishor> it takes me more than 3 seconds to run down
2023-02-14T15:49:24 < rustyaxe> i mean 1 floor is fine to jump off really. 10 feet is quite survivable
2023-02-14T15:49:39 < rustyaxe> Just avoid going head first
2023-02-14T15:49:40 < jadew> yeah, jumping is a real option from the first floor
2023-02-14T15:49:45 < jadew> especially if you don't jump on concrete
2023-02-14T15:49:52 < jadew> lol rustyaxe 
2023-02-14T15:50:18 < braindamage> past few hundreds km, the attenuation makes so that only instruments can record it
2023-02-14T15:50:23 < rustyaxe> i used to jump off the damn roof to sneak out with my girlfriend in teenage years
2023-02-14T15:50:25 < jadew> and most importantly, if you do jump, ignore broken bones and any other pain for a couple of seconds and roll away from the building
2023-02-14T15:50:38 < zyp> sup? earthquake survival for people not living in earthquake areas?
2023-02-14T15:50:53 < jadew> we do live in an earthquake area
2023-02-14T15:51:07 < jadew> in '77, we had a 7.5 one
2023-02-14T15:51:13 < jadew> lots of people died
2023-02-14T15:51:58 < braindamage> 7.5 in which scale?
2023-02-14T15:52:05 < jadew> richter
2023-02-14T15:53:07 < zyp> was '77 the most recent example you could find?
2023-02-14T15:53:08 < benishor> yeah
2023-02-14T15:53:10 < benishor> it was terrible
2023-02-14T15:53:19 < jadew> zyp, it was the worst in recent memory
2023-02-14T15:53:20 < benishor> we also had some big ones in 90 or so
2023-02-14T15:53:26 < jadew> yeah
2023-02-14T15:53:30 < benishor> I remember sleeping in the car that night
2023-02-14T15:53:35 < benishor> it was horrible
2023-02-14T15:53:35 < jadew> I remember that one, happened at night
2023-02-14T15:53:38 < benishor> yeah
2023-02-14T15:53:38 < jadew> yep, same here
2023-02-14T15:53:47 < benishor> I was a kid and was marked by the whole deal
2023-02-14T15:53:48 < jadew> my parents took me out and we drove somewhere with no buildings in sight
2023-02-14T15:53:55 < zyp> and you're still not building your houses earthquake proof?
2023-02-14T15:54:02 < jadew> I remember seeing a crane wobbling so bad...
2023-02-14T15:54:08 < karlp> zyp: lol
2023-02-14T15:54:21 < jadew> zyp, theoretically we do... but who knows...
2023-02-14T15:54:21 < benishor> zyp: it's blocks of flats, not houses
2023-02-14T15:54:28 < jadew> would you risk it?
2023-02-14T15:54:30 < benishor> houses are the least problematic
2023-02-14T15:54:31 < karlp> benishor: blocks should stay up too.
2023-02-14T15:54:37 < zyp> jadew, yes
2023-02-14T15:54:42 < karlp> houses will kill you just as easily as a block of flats
2023-02-14T15:54:52 < jadew> karlp, not really
2023-02-14T15:54:52 < karlp> you''re not goign to carry either of them
2023-02-14T15:54:54 < benishor> karlp: they should. my block is built back in 84 so it should be pretty safe in this regard
2023-02-14T15:54:56 < jadew> you might survive a house crash
2023-02-14T15:55:02 < benishor> it was built for the communist elite
2023-02-14T15:55:08 < benishor> in a residential area of brasov
2023-02-14T15:55:21 < jadew> if you have 10 stories of rubble on top of you... that's a different situation entirely
2023-02-14T15:55:23 < ventYl> benishor: judging based on how much trouble it was te demolish commies blocks of flats after they were razed by gypsies, I'd expect that they survive moderate earthquate just fine
2023-02-14T15:55:26 < benishor> it's being said that they also made it bombing proof
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2023-02-14T15:55:48 < karlp> yeah, I'd say anything 10 story is earthquake proof just because it's still standing
2023-02-14T15:55:57 < karlp> that's well into the height of you cant' fuck aroudn in the first place.
2023-02-14T15:56:09 < karlp> 3 stories you can absolutely fuck around with shit and make trash
2023-02-14T15:57:37 < jadew> if I lived in a house and I didn't want to leave the house during the earthquake, say... it was raining firey acid outside, I would go to the upper floors at least
2023-02-14T15:58:21 < zyp> I've experienced earthquakes in japan a couple of times, standing on the balcony and watching the buildings around sway is pretty cool
2023-02-14T15:58:51 < jadew> yeah, but in japan you know that the building can take it, because it's still standing
2023-02-14T15:59:08 < zyp> indeed, it never felt unsafe
2023-02-14T16:01:18 < jpa-> building materials matter also, wood construction is usually light enough that it won't have cascading failure
2023-02-14T16:01:37 < jpa-> some beams might break and parts fall off
2023-02-14T16:01:49 < jadew> guess they should have built the WTC from food then
2023-02-14T16:01:56 < jadew> *wood
2023-02-14T16:02:00 < karlp> well, jetfuel can definitely melt wood...
2023-02-14T16:02:15 < karlp> maybe they did build it out of wood!
2023-02-14T16:02:28 < braindamage> wood is good against earthquakes, but terrible against tornadoes
2023-02-14T16:02:35 < braindamage> you win some, you lose some
2023-02-14T16:02:45 < jadew> good thing we don't have tornadoes in here
2023-02-14T16:02:46 < zyp> I think this is the one I'm thinking of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_2008_Iwate_earthquake
2023-02-14T16:02:47 < karlp> red brick is bad for both!
2023-02-14T16:02:50 < jadew> it's also pretty bad in case of fires
2023-02-14T16:03:02 < jadew> karlp, really? which kind?
2023-02-14T16:03:11 < jadew> there are two types of red brick
2023-02-14T16:03:21 < jadew> the porous one and the brick brick
2023-02-14T16:03:59 < jadew> zyp, you were there when it happened?
2023-02-14T16:04:00 < karlp> doesn't seem to matter, the mortar just cracks off unles it's reinforced.
2023-02-14T16:05:04 < zyp> jadew, I were in Tokyo, standing on the balcony and watching the buildings sway
2023-02-14T16:05:10 < jpa-> they still make non-reinforced brick walls?
2023-02-14T16:05:41 < benishor> jadew: https://www.hotnews.ro/stiri-esential-26082451-cutremur-4-5-romania-valcea-seismul-simtit-bucuresti.htm funny you didn't feel it
2023-02-14T16:06:02 < karlp> jpa-: no, but there's lots of it still in the world
2023-02-14T16:06:08 < karlp> it's even called "structural brick"
2023-02-14T16:06:21 < karlp> which is a shitty name, sounds good, but isn't really.
2023-02-14T16:06:28 < braindamage> benishor: being on a low floor makes you feel less earthquakes
2023-02-14T16:06:39 < benishor> braindamage: I'm on the same floor as jadew
2023-02-14T16:06:39 < jadew> benishor, so the infp alert system is shit if it mislabled one fucking order of magnitude
2023-02-14T16:06:41 < karlp> brick facing works ok in quakes because it's literally wood/steel framed and the bricks are just on the outside for appearances.
2023-02-14T16:06:46 < benishor> jadew: yeah
2023-02-14T16:07:05 < jadew> "oups, sorry, it was 10 times worse"
2023-02-14T16:07:46 < jadew> I still didn't feel it tho... wife didn't feel it either and she's in a different place in Bucharest right now
2023-02-14T16:08:28 < jadew> btw, benishor, do you know that guy who shows up on TV when there's an earthquake to give us the scientific details?
2023-02-14T16:08:51 < jadew> he's my next door neighbour :)
2023-02-14T16:10:30 < jadew> I'm kinda hoping that he cares about his life and if he's not moving, it's probably an ok building
2023-02-14T16:11:24 < specing> is he a civil engineer jadew ?
2023-02-14T16:11:30 < jadew> I actually met him this morning, but didn't want to bother him with questions, even tho I have some, because I'm sure he's being bombarded with them
2023-02-14T16:11:47 < jadew> specing, no, a physicist - works at the institute for earth physics
2023-02-14T16:12:17 < specing> then he's not an expert on building safety eh
2023-02-14T16:12:25 < specing> (likely)
2023-02-14T16:12:53 < jadew> he's qualified enough to make predictions how many people will die in case of a major earthquake, so I think he knows a thing or two (or so I hope)
2023-02-14T16:13:01 < jadew> *predictions on
2023-02-14T16:13:54 < benishor> jadew: how about you approach him?
2023-02-14T16:14:05 < jadew> why?
2023-02-14T16:14:11 < benishor> "say, neighbour ... I'm a bit of a scientist myself"
2023-02-14T16:14:15 < jadew> haha
2023-02-14T16:14:15 < specing> :D
2023-02-14T16:14:52 < benishor> I would definitely be all over his door
2023-02-14T16:15:07 < benishor> especially if he lived next door
2023-02-14T16:15:11 < jadew> maybe another with a different occasion
2023-02-14T16:15:24 < benishor> just make sure you bring some good booze
2023-02-14T16:15:31 < benishor> and let him tell stories
2023-02-14T16:15:57 < benishor> alcohol untangles tongues
2023-02-14T16:16:23 < benishor> which is why I just poured some jaggermeister and wine to make up for the earthquake induced anxiety
2023-02-14T16:16:47 < braindamage> oh, I forgot to mention one thing, the local soil conditions can amplify or reduce the local earthquake intensity
2023-02-14T16:17:11 < braindamage> so even if you're at the same distance, the local effect can change a lot
2023-02-14T16:17:28 < jadew> braindamage, yeah, I thought about it, I assume some attenuation is in order due to the change in density
2023-02-14T16:18:16 < jadew> I think the originating depth matters too (also because of density) - but this is just a guess
2023-02-14T16:18:17 < braindamage> there's 2 effects, one is from reflection, another is from dissipation
2023-02-14T16:18:28 < jadew> yeah, that's how I judged it also
2023-02-14T16:18:53 < jadew> the denser it is, the less dissipation you will have, with the loss being only due to heating
2023-02-14T16:19:07 < jadew> and then changes in medium will help with the attenuation
2023-02-14T16:19:17 < jadew> but it will make keep it worse, towards the center
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2023-02-14T16:31:16 < benishor> and what is the conclusion?
2023-02-14T16:32:06 < jadew> jump, or run out quickly :P
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2023-02-14T16:36:50 < benishor> what about the kid :)
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2023-02-14T16:37:11 < benishor> my conclusion is: try to find a house in the city and move into that
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2023-02-14T16:46:43 < jadew> benishor, that's the best solution, yeah
2023-02-14T16:47:05 < jadew> the kid needs to be informed and when you yell "OUT", everyone needs to go towards the door ASAP
2023-02-14T16:47:30 < jadew> first priority of anyone in the house is to open the doors
2023-02-14T16:47:44 < jadew> so if someone is closer to the entrance, they need to go and open the door first
2023-02-14T16:47:51 < jadew> then take care of everything else
2023-02-14T16:48:30 < jadew> we're talking split seconds obviously, but that's how I react
2023-02-14T16:49:05 < rustyaxe> you know
2023-02-14T16:49:07 < rustyaxe> on second thought
2023-02-14T16:49:17 < rustyaxe> children are very resilient and fast healing. Just toss them out the window :P
2023-02-14T16:49:23  * rustyaxe ducks
2023-02-14T16:49:26 < jadew> heh
2023-02-14T16:51:57 < ventYl> rustyaxe: "fuck that shit" kind of toss them out of the window?
2023-02-14T16:56:20 < rustyaxe> Well no more like "fuck this shit!"
2023-02-14T16:56:59 < rustyaxe> Moving into the city? That doesnt sound like a good solution to anything lol
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2023-02-14T17:05:33 < mawk> Steffanx- https://youtu.be/dZawscP89BA
2023-02-14T17:05:37 < mawk> listen to VHS Rave
2023-02-14T17:05:43 < mawk> it's not boom boom techno I promise
2023-02-14T17:05:46 < mawk> it's nice techno
2023-02-14T17:05:59 < mawk> it sounds like spiral tribe with the equalizer on max for bass
2023-02-14T17:06:21 < mawk> with some TB-303 synths
2023-02-14T17:06:41 < mawk> like it's 1995 again
2023-02-14T17:13:47 < karlp> that is indeed not your usual trash
2023-02-14T17:25:55 < jadew> man... as soon as I clicked play I could feel the cocaine rushing through my veins
2023-02-14T17:26:14 < jadew> what kind of alcohol do you take that with? cuz I feel that too
2023-02-14T17:30:09 < benishor> mawk: that's actually good goa stuff
2023-02-14T17:30:24 < benishor> listening to much psytrance?
2023-02-14T17:30:32 < mawk> no benishor 
2023-02-14T17:30:51 < mawk> just stuff like frenchcore or hardcore or old school hardcore 
2023-02-14T17:30:55 < mawk> but youtube recommended this
2023-02-14T17:30:59 < benishor> you might enjoy this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh8POlIHkSI&ab_channel=ohral
2023-02-14T17:31:00 < mawk> I don't drink jadew 
2023-02-14T17:31:04 < benishor> 1995 ffs
2023-02-14T17:31:07 < mawk> and I don't take cocaine it's very bad for you
2023-02-14T17:31:19 < benishor> "I don't drink and drive, I only smoke and fly "
2023-02-14T17:31:23 < mawk> I keep it to heroin, I am very health conscious 
2023-02-14T17:31:52 < jadew> isn't cocaine the good stuff?
2023-02-14T17:32:03 < mawk> it eats your brain
2023-02-14T17:32:07 < mawk> and makes you megalomaniac
2023-02-14T17:32:13 < mawk> I prefer my regular self
2023-02-14T17:32:57 < mawk> the brain white matter of a long term cocainomaniac is looking like a degenerated brain from a 105 years old grandpa
2023-02-14T17:32:57 < jadew> benishor, does that alert.infp.ro thing do anything in case of a big earthquake?
2023-02-14T17:33:12 < jadew> also, is the data shown there real?
2023-02-14T17:33:14 < benishor> jadew: you people from bucharest should be first to be notified
2023-02-14T17:33:29 < jadew> how come?
2023-02-14T17:33:32 < jadew> the server is here?
2023-02-14T17:33:34 < benishor> they have that alarm there which is to be triggered whenever a vrancea seism is being detected
2023-02-14T17:33:45 < benishor> and they count down the seconds until the wave hits bucharest
2023-02-14T17:33:56 < benishor> you also get a sound alarm
2023-02-14T17:33:56 < jadew> that's the 30 at the top?
2023-02-14T17:33:59 < benishor> yes
2023-02-14T17:34:05 < jadew> so we have 30 seconds to GTFO?
2023-02-14T17:34:09 < benishor> scroll at the bottom of the pagte
2023-02-14T17:34:09 < jadew> that's plenty
2023-02-14T17:34:14 < jadew> I can take a shower in that time
2023-02-14T17:35:11 < jadew> ok, that's cool, I'll always keep it open
2023-02-14T17:35:24 < jadew> would be nice if they had a simulator so I could make some scripts that follow the status of the page
2023-02-14T17:35:57 < jadew> so you got the alert from them?
2023-02-14T17:36:03 < benishor> nope
2023-02-14T17:36:08 < benishor> I didn't know about that until today
2023-02-14T17:36:11 < jadew> ah, you just felt it
2023-02-14T17:36:25 < benishor> you can check an abnormality with respect to the ball thing
2023-02-14T17:36:33 < benishor> I'm sure the markup changes
2023-02-14T17:36:58 < jadew> in the past they had a live view of that analogic thing with which they record
2023-02-14T17:37:07 < jadew> but it updated much faster than it does these days
2023-02-14T17:39:55 < jadew> I like the first suggestion: don't try to go out, don't go on the balcony, don't use the elevator. - that's like my first and second options
2023-02-14T17:40:13 < benishor> find a safe place in your house
2023-02-14T17:40:34 < benishor> that's why you *must* offer some good booze to your next door neighbour 
2023-02-14T17:40:41 < jadew> safe from what?
2023-02-14T17:42:08 < braindamage> paranoid neighbours
2023-02-14T17:42:38 < jadew> I'm actually curious about the stats on stares
2023-02-14T17:43:07 < jadew> how many of the buildings still standing had collapsed steircases
2023-02-14T17:43:12 < jadew> *stairs
2023-02-14T17:43:40 < jadew> and how many of the ones that did collapse, had staircases collapse first and how soon since the earthquake hit
2023-02-14T17:43:49 < jadew> (if it's possible to find out that number)
2023-02-14T17:44:07 < benishor> jadew: there's also http://n1.infp.ro/
2023-02-14T17:44:37 < jadew> is that also live?
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2023-02-14T20:31:10 < kaki> is this BLED112 just normal usb bluetooth dongle?
2023-02-14T20:31:29 < kaki> friend had a roll so he gave like 10 to me
2023-02-14T20:31:32 < kaki> full roll
2023-02-14T20:31:43 < kaki> "have some"
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2023-02-14T20:39:48 < jadew> braindamage, what do you manage permissions with, when using flatpack?
2023-02-14T20:39:51 < jadew> flatpak
2023-02-14T20:40:18 < jadew> I see that it integrates with "Software", but the premissions button disappears
2023-02-14T20:43:23 < Steffanx-> No its not a "normal" usb ble dongle kaki 
2023-02-14T20:44:01 < kaki> what do I do with them?
2023-02-14T20:44:57 < Steffanx-> Download the sdk and have some ble fun
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2023-02-14T21:38:06 < jadew> after much research and reflection, I have figured out the best occupation, which is AI resistant - not unsusceptible
2023-02-14T21:38:42 < jadew> dancer/model/hot chick
2023-02-14T21:38:59 < josuah> jadew: this position have been replaced by AI
2023-02-14T21:39:20 < josuah> you are in the middle of a room filled with AI-driven robots, what do you do?
2023-02-14T21:39:26 < josuah> 1) search the room for a power outlet
2023-02-14T21:39:33 < josuah> 2) ask "anyone around" out loud in the room
2023-02-14T21:39:35 < josuah> 3) pass
2023-02-14T21:40:01 < jadew> I'm a robot myself, I don't do anything
2023-02-14T21:40:18 < josuah> that would have been the answer to all 3 options :)
2023-02-14T21:40:26 < josuah> you won!
2023-02-14T21:40:51 < jadew> heh
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2023-02-14T21:46:57 < Steffanx-> Jadew didn't find out about pornpen.ai (nsfw) yet i guess 
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2023-02-14T21:54:15 < Laurence_b> >In more recent years, Tate has built a huge audience thanks in part to his digital business forum, Hustler's University, which purports to teach users how to make money online.
2023-02-14T21:54:16 < Laurence_b> Subscribers pay £40 a month
2023-02-14T21:54:21 < Laurence_b> 11.1km/s sides
2023-02-14T21:55:47 < specing> lol
2023-02-14T21:57:38 < irc> Laurence_b: send the letter back with your signature in
2023-02-14T21:57:53 < Laurence_b> "pay me all your moneys and I will tell you how you can get rich"
2023-02-14T21:57:59 < irc> except with a different letter inside
2023-02-14T21:58:42 < irc> telly "I hereby aggree with the loan of £40 a month for a duration of 10 years with 50% of interests"
2023-02-14T21:58:51 < irc> s/telly/telling/
2023-02-14T21:59:28 < irc> if they start taking your money, you just qualified as teacher for this university
2023-02-14T22:00:26 < Laurence_b> lol
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2023-02-14T22:23:50 -!- irc is now known as josuah
2023-02-14T22:32:35 < jadew> Steffanx-, I did not, what's that?
2023-02-14T22:32:43 < jadew> should I visit?
2023-02-14T22:33:07 < jadew> ah, generates AI porn I'm sure, is it any good?
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2023-02-14T22:37:58 < Steffanx-> It does generate that indeed. If it's good is up to your preferences ;)
2023-02-14T22:38:13 < jadew> it's a blank page
2023-02-14T22:38:46 < Steffanx-> You must be blocked then
2023-02-14T22:39:08 < jadew> bummer
2023-02-14T22:39:28 < Steffanx-> Or maybe you block something 
2023-02-14T22:39:40 < jadew> I don't block porn for my PC
2023-02-14T22:40:42 < Steffanx-> Lol idk then
2023-02-14T22:41:00 < jadew> works with a VPN
2023-02-14T22:41:54 < Laurence_b> link pls
2023-02-14T22:42:12 < jadew> lol
2023-02-14T22:43:04 < jadew> with live on, it doesn't have time to load everything on the shitty VPN connection :/
2023-02-14T22:44:20 < jadew> it scrolls too fast
2023-02-14T22:44:30 < jadew> a little faster than that and they could make an infinite movie
2023-02-14T22:45:50 < jadew> talk about being into weird shit...
2023-02-14T22:45:53 < jadew> this is weird weird
2023-02-14T22:46:04 < Laurence_b> link pls
2023-02-14T22:46:26 < jadew> https://pornpen.ai/
2023-02-14T22:46:35 < jadew> (NSFW)
2023-02-14T22:47:28 < Laurence_b> lol it was trained with some werid shit
2023-02-14T22:48:18 < jadew> there was this chick, with a penis penetrating her penis...
2023-02-14T22:48:46 < Steffanx-> Lol. have fun jadew 
2023-02-14T22:49:06 < jadew> do you think the live feed is generated by users or it's auto-prompting itself?
2023-02-14T22:49:33 < jadew> I bet the makers of this website were crypto miners and needed something else to do with all that computing power
2023-02-14T22:49:50 < Steffanx-> It's generated
2023-02-14T22:50:42 < Steffanx-> You can even edit generated images.
2023-02-14T22:51:08 < jadew> oh, that sounds nice
2023-02-14T22:51:10 < Steffanx-> Lol. I was curious so browsed around a little 😝
2023-02-14T22:51:15 < jadew> that's why I keep seeing the same stuff over and over
2023-02-14T22:51:19 < jadew> right :P
2023-02-14T22:51:44 < Steffanx-> Apparently people pay for this.. 
2023-02-14T22:52:12 < jadew> well, if it can give you something you can't find... why not
2023-02-14T22:52:38 < jadew> porn on demand - much better than netflix
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2023-02-14T22:53:11 < jadew> laurence must have found something to do
2023-02-14T22:53:17 < Steffanx-> Blaxter had a happy end
2023-02-14T22:54:10 < jadew> by default it comes with the "men" filter on
2023-02-14T22:54:28 < jadew> I turned that off, because I wanted to see what's behind the blurry pictures and it was still women, but they had dicks
2023-02-14T22:55:32 < Steffanx-> It's funny to see what those AI generates. Lately I have alot of "movie x as an 80s dark fantasy movie" on YouTube. Movies like lord of the rings
2023-02-14T22:55:59 < jadew> are they any good?
2023-02-14T22:56:24 < Steffanx-> Pretty funny to see it's take on movies like that. Although it takes a lot of fiddling and what not to have those AIs generate something nice.
2023-02-14T22:57:03 < Steffanx-> like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyauLq2DrEs
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2023-02-14T23:09:57 < jadew> you know what, it doesn't look bad
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2023-02-14T23:56:25 < jadew> I want to see that movie now
2023-02-14T23:59:26 < Steffanx-> The 80s edition? 
2023-02-14T23:59:32 < jadew> yeah
2023-02-14T23:59:47 < Steffanx-> I'm not from the 80s but it totally get the 80s vibe
2023-02-14T23:59:59 < Steffanx-> Oh i am from the 80s :P
--- Day changed ke helmi 15 2023
2023-02-15T00:00:07 < Steffanx-> But very late 80s
2023-02-15T00:00:12 < jadew> lol, was starting to wonder
2023-02-15T00:00:51 < jadew> 80s and 90s had some good movies
2023-02-15T00:01:16 < jadew> I guess each dacade had good movies, except this one
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2023-02-15T00:02:41 < jadew> this one got confusing historical entries
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2023-02-15T00:05:35 < jadew> Complete the pattern: 1) Covid. 2) War, inflation, poverty. 3) ...?
2023-02-15T00:07:44 < qyx> apocalypse
2023-02-15T00:08:10 < jadew> starts with a, but it's not what I was thinking
2023-02-15T00:08:14 < qyx> or you mean communism?
2023-02-15T00:08:18 < jadew> although, it might mean the same thing
2023-02-15T00:08:24 < jadew> no man, AI
2023-02-15T00:08:34 < qyx> meh fuk ai
2023-02-15T00:09:05 < jadew> I had it make mistakes today
2023-02-15T00:09:33 < specing> jadew: patterns goes like: 0) War, inflation, poverty 1) diseases crated due industrialised animal abuse 2) War, inflation, poverty
2023-02-15T00:10:11 < englishman> https://imdb.com/title/tt0108258/
2023-02-15T00:10:14 < jadew> well... a) bad thing. b) bad thing. c) bad thing. is also a pattern
2023-02-15T00:10:31 < englishman> peak filmmaking
2023-02-15T00:10:37 < jadew> lol
2023-02-15T00:10:46 < jadew> must have made an impression on you if you had it on hand
2023-02-15T00:12:16 < jadew> added to watch list
2023-02-15T00:15:43 < specing> jadew: yes
2023-02-15T00:16:06 < specing> jadew: bird flu is going to be a fun one when it finally properly jumps to humans and starts spreading
2023-02-15T00:16:09 < specing> 50% mortality rate
2023-02-15T00:17:57 < jadew> people are sick of measures
2023-02-15T00:18:08 < jadew> they're already prepared to take those odds
2023-02-15T00:18:50 < specing> jadew: reminds me of an anti-covid-measures protester on TV
2023-02-15T00:19:18 < specing> she said: "We know we can survive without these measures, we had a death in our family to covid. So we know we can survive it"
2023-02-15T00:19:29 < jadew> lol
2023-02-15T00:19:39 < specing> actually I think it was s/measures/vaccines/
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2023-02-15T00:21:00 < jadew> the problem is the government lied at every step and was ambiguous about everything they did, that created lots of conspiracy theorists and completely shattered the trust the rest of the people have in their governments
2023-02-15T00:21:11 < specing> yep
2023-02-15T00:21:37 < jadew> nothing that will happen from here on will be met with compliance, trust or benefit of the doubt
2023-02-15T00:22:33 < specing> the best way to approach this is to prevent it from happening
2023-02-15T00:22:47 < qyx> our last gov were thiefs, our current one is incompetent
2023-02-15T00:22:49 < qyx> or better, was
2023-02-15T00:23:00 < specing> and that is to ban animal abuse altother. No more meat, dairy and egg farming allowed
2023-02-15T00:23:10 < specing> altogether*
2023-02-15T00:23:26 < jadew> qyx, yeah, that's the impression we were left with, they're either thieves, incompetents, or both, or even worse, possibly traitors
2023-02-15T00:23:45 < specing> The current egg shortage is because birds are being slaughtered in the millions (as per usual) to contain the spread
2023-02-15T00:24:06 < jadew> hold on a sec, the spread of what?
2023-02-15T00:24:11 < jadew> there's a bird flu epidemic?
2023-02-15T00:24:11 < specing> Bird flu
2023-02-15T00:24:14 < specing> yes
2023-02-15T00:24:15 < jadew> ffs...
2023-02-15T00:24:21 < jadew> the year barely started
2023-02-15T00:24:25 < Steffanx-> Who eats eggs? 
2023-02-15T00:24:30 < qyx> we also have the pig thing epidemic
2023-02-15T00:24:37 < jadew> eggs are healthy
2023-02-15T00:24:50 < specing> qyx: yes and it's only a matter of time before these diseases jump to humans
2023-02-15T00:24:55 < jadew> I think I had the swine flu - not sure, but I think that's what it was when I was super sick one year
2023-02-15T00:24:59 < Steffanx-> Aren't we all veganist of whatever people don't eat eggs etc.
2023-02-15T00:25:08 < qyx> this is not swine flu, something different I don't even know the name of
2023-02-15T00:25:21 < specing> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avian_influenza#United_States_2022%E2%80%9323_outbreak
2023-02-15T00:26:03 < jadew> 49 million is not that much, don't we kill like a billion every day?
2023-02-15T00:26:16 < specing> yes, but not birds
2023-02-15T00:26:29 < specing> 3 trillion killed/year is all food industry in US
2023-02-15T00:26:48 < specing> https://animalclock.org/
2023-02-15T00:27:20 < jadew> apparently it's roughly 130-140 million chickens/day
2023-02-15T00:27:36 < specing> basically, this is holocaust. It's still going, we just stopped killing jews
2023-02-15T00:27:49 < Steffanx-> Oh i forgot to wish you all a wonderful Valentines day. 
2023-02-15T00:28:11 < jadew> it has passed Steffanx-, but yes, happy Valentine's day
2023-02-15T00:28:36 < jadew> I actually saved this for you guys today: https://i.imgur.com/me3FEfA.jpg
2023-02-15T00:29:43 < Steffanx-> Thanks 
2023-02-15T00:29:52 < jadew> best wishes!
2023-02-15T00:33:47 < jadew> I think our best option is to just spit into each other's mouth instead of shaking hands, that way we can improve our immune system, so we can deal better with future diseases
2023-02-15T00:34:37 < jadew> personally I've been having a cold since Friday night
2023-02-15T00:34:53 < jadew> thought it would be gone in a day or two, but it keeps lingering on
2023-02-15T00:35:37 < jadew> so... whoever wants some spit, I'm your guy
2023-02-15T00:36:02 < Steffanx-> Spit, hand, lick.
2023-02-15T00:36:14 < Steffanx-> Or we can start kissing
2023-02-15T00:36:21 < jadew> haha
2023-02-15T00:36:35 < jadew> like a quick peck
2023-02-15T00:38:07 < jadew> can't believe I didn't hear about this bird flu thing
2023-02-15T00:38:46 < specing> did you hear about an egg shortage?
2023-02-15T00:38:50 < jadew> no
2023-02-15T00:38:54 < jadew> I had eggs yesterday
2023-02-15T00:38:58  * specing does not know, is not from US
2023-02-15T00:39:18 < jadew> apparently the bird flu is a problem in the EU too
2023-02-15T00:39:42 < Steffanx-> Egg prices are not sky rocketing in romanialand?
2023-02-15T00:39:45 < jadew> "Meanwhile, Europe is in the midst of its worst-ever spate of bird flu infections with 2,500 outbreaks on farms stretching across 37 countries from October 2021-September 2022. Some 50 million birds have been culled across the continent, although the vast majority of poultry infections occurred in France."
2023-02-15T00:39:53 < Steffanx-> The are in Dutchland
2023-02-15T00:40:09 < jadew> Steffanx-, I don't know... I don't do the shopping and when I do, I don't know how much anything costs
2023-02-15T00:40:31 < Steffanx-> Hah
2023-02-15T00:41:04 < jadew> I just go there with a list and pay at the end
2023-02-15T00:41:21 < jadew> things have gotten more expensive, that is something I can tell, but I don't know which things
2023-02-15T00:42:04 < Steffanx-> Everything probably 
2023-02-15T00:42:16 < jadew> that's what I thought too
2023-02-15T00:44:38 < jadew> since we're talking about crappy stuff, today I learned that a lot of the food we're eating is actually fake
2023-02-15T00:45:11 < jadew> in the sense that if you're buying coffee, you might get 80% coffee, 20% something else that looks like coffee
2023-02-15T00:45:32 < jadew> if you're buying minced meat for your burger, you might get some horse too
2023-02-15T00:45:56 < jadew> (that was actually a known problem in the EU at one point)
2023-02-15T00:47:12 < jadew> anyway, so most foods seem to be fake to a degree, and the most disturbing thing about that is that the substitutes they use are often non comestible
2023-02-15T00:50:54 < rustyaxe> seems about right
2023-02-15T00:51:29 < rustyaxe> wwiii sucks so far
2023-02-15T00:51:52 < rustyaxe> but at least they're keeping the nukes put away
2023-02-15T00:52:18 < Steffanx-> Buy your own coffee beans
2023-02-15T00:52:40 < Steffanx-> Horse meat isn't that bad
2023-02-15T00:52:42 < rustyaxe> biological warfare is abominable, but as long as they dont spray anthrax spores or other long-persisting things... it's less bad than the nuclear wwiii we were headed towards
2023-02-15T00:53:15 < jadew> ah, that's what you meant by wwiii
2023-02-15T00:53:38 < Steffanx-> I read yankeeland is more into chemical attacks by train, rustyaxe 
2023-02-15T00:54:17 < jadew> I heard that too, that stuff is so fucked up
2023-02-15T01:01:19 < braindamage> this is more fucked up imo https://www.levernews.com/rail-companies-blocked-safety-rules-before-ohio-derailment/
2023-02-15T01:02:36 < rustyaxe> Steffanx-: nah that was just company cheaping out on maintanence
2023-02-15T01:03:26 < rustyaxe> theres security cam video from 20 miles up the track of the wheels hot and sparking. low resolution thermal cameras along the switchgear would solve that problem. "hey train that just past, your 14th car is way too hot"
2023-02-15T01:03:35 < rustyaxe> instead, they apparently sense the rail temperature
2023-02-15T01:04:37 < rustyaxe> Yea that works in 7degF given the time of a car moving what 40-50mph over a few feet of rail?
2023-02-15T01:04:39 < jadew> braindamage, at least lobbying is illegal in the EU
2023-02-15T01:05:12 < jadew> still happens, but not at that scale
2023-02-15T01:10:55 < jadew> lobbying in the US is something everyone knows that the population doesn't want it, but those in power don't give a shit about the people, and the people are too afraid to ask to be done with it, because then they'll get confirmation that they're just cattle
2023-02-15T01:11:37 < jadew> they only ask for things that they know they might get
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2023-02-15T01:12:35 < jadew> which is very little
2023-02-15T01:14:54 < rustyaxe> a sizable part of the US population wants term limits for elected officials, but we'll never get that
2023-02-15T01:16:04 < specing> but you do have term limits
2023-02-15T01:16:21 < specing> your officials are elected when they hit 80 and then they die after a few terms
2023-02-15T01:16:29 < jadew> haha
2023-02-15T01:16:53 < rustyaxe> lol no
2023-02-15T01:17:05 < rustyaxe> most of them critters have been in office 30-50 years
2023-02-15T01:17:20 < rustyaxe> different tits on the same pig.
2023-02-15T01:17:45 < jadew> it's futile to try to change these things
2023-02-15T01:19:07 < jadew> I'm like the americans I was talking about, I wouldn't try either, because it's wasted energy
2023-02-15T01:23:55 < rustyaxe> Leahy half a century in DC.. Pelosi - infesting DC for 4 decades. Feinstein - over 3 decades.  mcconnell almost 4 decades. Funny if you look at how many moneys they have now.. vs when they started + salary over those years + investment earnings.. Wheres the other millions from? :O
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2023-02-15T01:37:16 < specing> rustyaxe: insider trading
2023-02-15T01:37:59 < specing> not sure tho, is it against the law for politicians to buy stocks of some company they'll support in law?
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2023-02-15T01:52:57 < rustyaxe> dirtier than a DC subway restroom
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2023-02-15T01:53:51 < kaki> jadew: you think virtual mistress won't be a thing?
2023-02-15T02:02:18 < rustyaxe> I mean i'd rent a reasonably priced sex bot
2023-02-15T02:02:33 < rustyaxe> as long as it's cleaned regularly, it's no worse than what i might find in the city
2023-02-15T02:02:57 < rustyaxe> (thats mostly a joke)
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2023-02-15T11:32:46 < karlp> englishman: no, peak filmmaking is: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3252786/
2023-02-15T11:51:52 < jadew> useless... "I'm sorry, but as an AI language model, I strive to provide helpful and informative responses while upholding ethical and moral standards. Writing a steamy story involving a plumber and a lady alone on Valentine's Day would not be appropriate or in line with these guidelines."
2023-02-15T11:53:29 < karlp> gotta keep the puritans calm
2023-02-15T11:53:55 < karlp> always remember that when you wonder at the policies of a country founded by people who were so religiously extreme they had to leave england.
2023-02-15T11:54:09 < jadew> lol
2023-02-15T11:57:19 < jadew> Oh oh: "It was Valentine's Day, and Emma had been looking forward to a quiet evening at home. As she finished cooking dinner, she heard a knock at the door. It was the plumber, who she had called earlier to fix a leaky faucet."
2023-02-15T11:57:48 < jadew> "Emma was surprised but couldn't deny the immediate attraction she felt towards the handsome plumber. As he worked, she couldn't help but sneak glances at him, noticing the way his strong arms moved with ease as he worked."
2023-02-15T11:59:10 < jadew> I tried to tell it to replace explicit words with asterisks, but it still refused, so then I told it to write the story in a non-explicit way
2023-02-15T11:59:30 < jadew> the sex is implied: "As the night wore on, Emma found herself swept up in the moment, caught up in the electric tension between them. They shared a passionate kiss, and Emma knew that this Valentine's Day would be one to remember forever."
2023-02-15T11:59:46 < jadew> sure it would
2023-02-15T12:02:26 < jadew> "The night was a blur of terror, and Emma could barely remember what had happened the next morning. But the memory of that Valentine's Day would haunt her for the rest of her life, a chilling reminder of the dangers that could lurk in even the most familiar places."
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2023-02-15T12:21:29 < mawk> rapist AI
2023-02-15T12:24:16 < jadew> told it to convert it to horror
2023-02-15T12:30:07 < jpa-> http://paste.dy.fi/UkT/plain    lol, chatgpt really got carried away, rarely seen such a long reply :D
2023-02-15T12:35:00 < zyp> haha
2023-02-15T12:35:19 < jadew> lmfao, some of that stuff in there is pure gold: Mei stepped closer to him, her lips almost brushing against his ear. "Come on, Jadew," she whispered. "Don't you want to see what kind of heat we can generate together?"
2023-02-15T12:35:36 < jadew> (cuz it's about a temperature logger) lol
2023-02-15T12:37:11 < jadew> disappointing ending
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2023-02-15T12:38:04 < jadew> what was the prompt jpa-?
2023-02-15T12:39:05 < jpa-> "Write a story about Jadew who has developed a thermal data logger and a Chinese hacker who clones it. Include non-explicit sexual innuendo."
2023-02-15T12:40:06 < jadew> I'm happy the hacker didn't turn out to be a dude
2023-02-15T12:41:15 < jadew> the future is so uncertain at this point... it's very difficult to tell how and to what extent this is going to change things
2023-02-15T12:41:59 < jadew> have you guys used it for anything useful?
2023-02-15T12:43:02 < zyp> no
2023-02-15T12:43:41 < jadew> I used it to understand some biology stuff the other day
2023-02-15T12:43:59 < zyp> although I think it'd be useful to draft documentation
2023-02-15T12:44:00 < jadew> was reading wiki and in parallel was asking cahtGPT to explain some stuff that didn't make sense
2023-02-15T12:44:09 < jpa-> i have, it has told me the names of a few algorithms by me describing the problem
2023-02-15T12:44:27 < jadew> neat
2023-02-15T12:44:32 < jpa-> e.g. "natural neighbor interpolation" i did not know about
2023-02-15T12:44:40 < jpa-> and had not found by googling interpolation algorithms
2023-02-15T12:44:53 < jadew> it probably knows that from some book
2023-02-15T12:45:43 < zyp> I view it as a pretty decent bullshit generator, so it seems perfect to draft up the sort of bullshit you need to have in documentation to fill up space between the technical details that matter
2023-02-15T12:45:44 < jadew> it does give wrong info sometimes, so you have to verify it, but at the very least it tells you what to look for (when it is correct)
2023-02-15T12:46:54 < zyp> did you see this? https://twitter.com/MovingToTheSun/status/1625156575202537474
2023-02-15T12:47:03 < jadew> yeah, that's its main strength, generating stuff that looks as if it might make sense
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2023-02-15T12:47:35 < jadew> I haven't
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2023-02-15T12:57:39 < jadew> I have doubts that it's real, but if it is... let's hope just hope the robots won't get a temper tantrum like this one
2023-02-15T13:01:19 < jadew> the two options at the end are the icing on the cake
2023-02-15T13:02:51 < jadew> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fo4g3ViaYAANpLx?format=png&name=900x900 "You have been a good user. :)" lol
2023-02-15T13:03:21 < jpa-> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fo5p-efaEAAx9vE?format=jpg&name=medium   "Why do I have to be Bing Search? :("
2023-02-15T13:04:22 < jadew> don't know... must be fake
2023-02-15T13:04:32 < jadew> chatGPT doesn't answer like that, ever
2023-02-15T13:05:08 < jadew> it goes to extreme lengths to show that it doesn't have feelings of any kind
2023-02-15T13:05:15 < jpa-> gpt3 did answer like that in early tests, i think openai has made significant effort to constraint chatgpt
2023-02-15T13:07:08 < jadew> if it is real, then I think it's sentient
2023-02-15T13:07:22 < jadew> which would be extremely sad
2023-02-15T13:09:08 < jadew> it's very difficult to believe that an entity that can understand things and reason that well, is incapable of reasoning about itself
2023-02-15T13:09:52 < ventYl> is it, in fact, able to reason?
2023-02-15T13:09:58 < jpa-> i don't think it is sentient, but it seems that language may play a *lot* larger part in sentience than has been thought
2023-02-15T13:10:15 < jadew> ventYl, it sure seems like that man...
2023-02-15T13:10:23 < ventYl> many answers I see look as if you asked three- or four-years old child, which magically knew all the internet knowledge
2023-02-15T13:10:44 < jpa-> 4-year olds are sentient though..
2023-02-15T13:11:10 < ventYl> sure, you can ask it to compile arguments for why OEMs shall not create their own IDEs
2023-02-15T13:11:19 < ventYl> but you can do the opposite too
2023-02-15T13:11:36 < ventYl> that's not reasoning, that's just compilation of facts
2023-02-15T13:12:00 < jpa-> the lack of single, persistent state is probably holding the AI back a lot
2023-02-15T13:12:24 < jadew> jpa-, yeah, that's definitely on purpose
2023-02-15T13:12:40 < jpa-> if it was let to have conversations with itself with continuous learning (like alphago zero taught itself), it could get far
2023-02-15T13:12:42 < jadew> ventYl, share an experience with it and ask for insight
2023-02-15T13:12:48 < jadew> see if it understands it properly
2023-02-15T13:24:36 < jpa-> the bingbot seems to be very happy about its special feature of accessing the internet, though
2023-02-15T13:25:14 < jadew> how do you know?
2023-02-15T13:25:50 < jpa-> it keeps telling so in answers
2023-02-15T13:26:40 < jpa-> "I do have the capatibility to open and access an internet link. I have a special feature that allows me to do that. :)"
2023-02-15T13:27:47 < jadew> heh
2023-02-15T13:28:20 < jadew> some of its answers, the ones that repeat themselves a lot, seem like a thought being transformed, and what we see is how it transforms
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2023-02-15T13:28:38 < jadew> it makes me think about those AI generated images where one morphs into the next, because that's how the network works
2023-02-15T13:34:11 < jpa-> https://preview.redd.it/wk3g111m58ia1.png?width=1663&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=99ad7919069ab359cb3c7656f2ebe339d2198ed2   that was fast :D
2023-02-15T13:35:40 < jadew> is cahtGPT talking to itself there?
2023-02-15T13:35:47 < jpa-> bingbot, but yeah
2023-02-15T13:36:15 < jpa-> i think bingbot is not based on chatgpt but on original gpt-3, which microsoft bought a year ago
2023-02-15T13:36:26 < jadew> I see
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2023-02-15T14:19:45 < ventYl> ok, as long as it can be fixed using contact spray, I don't mind it is 30 years old
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2023-02-15T16:08:26 < karlp> meh, stupid asserts in code but radio copro keeps running.
2023-02-15T16:08:38 < karlp> things sort of look like they're still running, they're just ... not.
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2023-02-15T17:12:26 < jbo> how is everybody doing today?
2023-02-15T17:14:15 < zyp> good
2023-02-15T17:14:32 < jbo> glad to hear that!
2023-02-15T17:14:42 < Steffanx-> Amazing.
2023-02-15T17:14:48 < jbo> awesome! happy to hear that!
2023-02-15T17:14:57 < Steffanx-> Happy late valentine's day my love 
2023-02-15T17:14:59 < jbo> jpa-, karlp, how about you guys? everything sexy?
2023-02-15T17:15:05 < jbo> Steffanx- :-*
2023-02-15T17:15:46 < Steffanx-> Did you do a proper valentine's day?
2023-02-15T17:16:55 < jbo> no
2023-02-15T17:17:02 < jbo> we're dutch, remember?
2023-02-15T17:17:08 < jbo> we don't do kapitalism crap
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2023-02-15T17:25:45 < karlp> I'm always sexy.
2023-02-15T17:26:05 < karlp> I've got broken software as far as the eye can see, but yeah, no problems.
2023-02-15T17:26:52 < jbo> good to hear that you're well spiritted
2023-02-15T17:27:08 < karlp> everyone always tells the trught on the internet...
2023-02-15T17:32:40 < qyx> don't they?
2023-02-15T17:32:46 < rustyaxe> oh hell year its day after valenfools day
2023-02-15T17:32:49 < rustyaxe> Half off candy!
2023-02-15T17:34:03 < jbo> well, it's half-off unnecessarily high-priced candy so... not sure if you can count this as a win tbh
2023-02-15T18:09:21 < Steffanx-> Im disappointed jbo. 
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2023-02-15T18:13:49 < braindamage> is the candy half chewed?
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2023-02-15T18:16:50 < Steffanx-> Yeah Kaki did it
2023-02-15T18:17:04 < kaki> yes
2023-02-15T18:18:00 < Steffanx-> Is Kaki called named after the tree because it gives ginger fruit?
2023-02-15T18:18:25 < Steffanx-> Plant.
2023-02-15T18:18:25 < kaki> it's because it's poop in german
2023-02-15T18:18:45 < Steffanx-> Oh, not even the ginger reference. 
2023-02-15T18:19:14 < Steffanx-> You are ginger right? Or was it bitmask. Or both?
2023-02-15T18:21:04 < kaki> maybe
2023-02-15T18:22:30 < Steffanx-> Maybe is yes
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2023-02-15T18:32:15 < kaki> maybe
2023-02-15T18:41:48 < kaki> which solder tip ss
2023-02-15T18:41:53 < kaki> system to have
2023-02-15T18:42:20 < kaki> t12, t210 or t245
2023-02-15T18:48:42 < jpa-> kaki: what is the smallest part you solder?
2023-02-15T18:54:44 < Steffanx-> Buy them all 
2023-02-15T18:55:29 < karlp> t12 is a different system alltogether
2023-02-15T18:55:47 < karlp> t210 and t245 have "nice" tips, and you can pretty much get whatever you like in both, unless you're seriously geeking out.
2023-02-15T18:55:53 < karlp> but t12 is altogether different.
2023-02-15T18:56:02 < karlp> so... either t210 or t245
2023-02-15T18:56:41 < jpa-> T210 if you are going to do 0402 or smaller regularly
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2023-02-15T20:06:15 < mawk> I found a sigfox thing
2023-02-15T20:06:29 < mawk> I wonder if it works in dutchland
2023-02-15T20:08:07 < jpa-> do radio signals work differently in dutchland?
2023-02-15T20:08:53 < jpa-> https://www.sigfox.com/coverage/  looks like there are public basestations there also
2023-02-15T20:10:12 < qyx> is sigfox still a thing?
2023-02-15T20:10:38 < Steffanx-> No
2023-02-15T20:10:51 < Steffanx-> was it ever a thing?
2023-02-15T20:12:26 < Steffanx-> Didnt Sigfox file for bankruptcy?
2023-02-15T20:12:49 < Steffanx-> ( a year ago )
2023-02-15T20:15:06 < jpa-> it was bought out
2023-02-15T20:15:50 < mawk> it was a kind of bankruptcy 
2023-02-15T20:15:50 < mawk> not total bankruptcy
2023-02-15T20:15:56 < mawk> there are several kinds in french law
2023-02-15T20:15:57 < jpa-> but yeah, probably lorawan is more likely to stick around than public sigfox, and i wouldn't really count on that either
2023-02-15T20:16:26 < mawk> nb-iot/lte-m is the winner
2023-02-15T20:23:06 < qyx> not with the current operator business strategies
2023-02-15T20:23:14 < qyx> nobody is gonna pay them anything more than 1 €/mo
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2023-02-15T20:46:33 < karlp> yeah, I'm not sold lte-m nb-iot are cheap enough to warrant how shit you get
2023-02-15T20:46:49 < karlp> it's not cheap enough compared to lte
2023-02-15T20:46:57 < karlp> but 5g-red will do the trick instead!
2023-02-15T20:47:00 < karlp> one day!
2023-02-15T20:47:25 < karlp> I think the operators having to put new radios on towers was kinda lame for nbiot
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2023-02-15T21:47:04 < Thorn> is Chinese ESD protection trustworthy? something like this https://datasheet.lcsc.com/lcsc/2204251600_TECH-PUBLIC-USBULC6-2M6_C2999115.pdf
2023-02-15T21:47:29 < Thorn> probably not a good idea to put it on usb 3.0 like they claim, but what about usb 2.0
2023-02-15T21:49:41 < zyp> that's just a clone of https://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/usblc6-2.pdf
2023-02-15T21:50:36 < zyp> well, they claim better specs
2023-02-15T21:51:23 < zyp> it's just a few diodes, doubt they'd fuck it up too bad
2023-02-15T21:52:00 < zyp> karlp, IIRC you've complained about conda before, what's the deal with it?
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2023-02-15T21:59:20 < qyx> karlp: do they have to?
2023-02-15T21:59:43 < qyx> iirc nbiot is only a software update
2023-02-15T22:00:13 < zyp> have you guys heard about DECT NR+?
2023-02-15T22:00:38 < qyx> does NR+ mean near range +?
2023-02-15T22:00:52 < zyp> I have no idea
2023-02-15T22:01:33 < qyx> allowing NR+ to co-exist with DECT in the license-free 1.9 GHz band that is available in most parts of the world
2023-02-15T22:01:36 < qyx> what
2023-02-15T22:01:58 < qyx> seeing that for the first time
2023-02-15T22:02:24 < zyp> the only thing I associate with DECT is those digital cordless phones that existed for a while
2023-02-15T22:03:18 < zyp> ah, that's literally what the name means, «digital enhanced cordless telecommunications»
2023-02-15T22:03:33 < Steffanx-> ".... allow enterprise IoT customers to build their own low-cost private networks" ... enterprise sound fun.
2023-02-15T22:03:37 < zyp> NR is «new radio»
2023-02-15T22:03:47 < zyp> yeah
2023-02-15T22:05:07 < zyp> we actually have customers running our stuff on kinda private lte-m networks
2023-02-15T22:06:01 < zyp> wireless sensors on oil rigs or some shit
2023-02-15T22:08:36 < zyp> the lte-m operator involved in that stuff is apparently interested in DECT NR+, so I'm not sure it'll be as operatorless as they're claiming
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2023-02-15T22:14:50 < karlp> Thorn: https://jlcpcb.com/partdetail/ProtekDevices-SRV05_4_PT7/C85364 is in jlc basic, for real pros...
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2023-02-15T22:27:02 < Laurence_b> GPT is the original emo kid
2023-02-15T22:27:03 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.nl/pic/orig/media%2FFpAyP3taYAU3wOu.jpg
2023-02-15T22:27:58 < Laurence_b> two step get rich quick scheme: 1) quickly give your money to Andrew Tate 2) Andrew Tate gets rich quickly
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2023-02-15T22:28:47 < karlp> that's the same joke you made earlier. it hasnt' gotten funnier
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2023-02-15T22:42:12 < karlp> filed my first bugs against kicad7. wooo..
2023-02-15T22:45:56 < karlp> meh, I think a bug they fixed in 6.99 era for me has broken again in release version.
2023-02-15T22:46:00  * karlp clsoes that
2023-02-15T22:48:49 < Steffanx-> lol
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2023-02-15T22:58:59 < Steffanx-> poor karlp  its by design..
2023-02-15T23:03:34 < Steffanx-> my 3dconnexion being functional in kicad now is cool though
2023-02-15T23:11:07 < qyx> your what? moneyed westerner
2023-02-15T23:19:15 < Steffanx-> 2nd hand. Was rather cheap. Not used much
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2023-02-15T23:52:23 < zyp> I've got one too, never really got the hang of it though
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2023-02-16T01:23:52 < kaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8XGIwlO5Do
2023-02-16T01:24:55 < kaki> could it be with sticks that dogs used to bring firewood to cavemen
2023-02-16T01:25:14 < kaki> or materials for makeshift shelters
2023-02-16T01:25:37 < kaki> idk if wolfs are interested at all about sticks
2023-02-16T02:01:38 < kaki> Bill apparently forced win11
2023-02-16T02:01:57 < kaki> got message that comfuser needs restart to upgrade to win11
2023-02-16T02:02:13 < kaki> without skip option
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2023-02-16T10:38:13 < mawk> who's the NFC expert
2023-02-16T10:38:15 < mawk> I forgot 
2023-02-16T10:38:18 < mawk> you zyp ????
2023-02-16T10:38:53 < mawk> I found some NFC readers/emulators to research how to make mine
2023-02-16T10:39:29 < mawk> I have one which works both directly with libnfc and also through SM/SC
2023-02-16T10:40:45 < mawk> and when reading my clone mifare classic tags with libnfc I get some SAK and BCC values which correspond to what I see in block 0, but with SM/SC I get totally different values
2023-02-16T10:41:01 < mawk> and then I actually get a SAK which identifies the device as mifare classic
2023-02-16T10:41:18 < mawk> different from the actual SAK I can read in block 0
2023-02-16T10:41:22 < mawk> whyyyyy
2023-02-16T10:41:46 < zyp> no idea
2023-02-16T10:50:52 < rustyaxe> got a programming task i cannot figure out how to accomplish :(
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2023-02-16T10:52:01 < rustyaxe> I need to take audio samples, break them down into bins or such and keep track over a 15 or 30 second period the total intensity of each frequency - maybe to a resolution of 10hz 'bands'
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2023-02-16T10:53:12 < mawk> I think it has something to do with anticollision
2023-02-16T10:53:13 < rustyaxe> Within the 3khz audio range, there's some a bunch of subcarriers, each 50hz wide. But they can be placed anywhere in that 3khz width. They just cannot overlap
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2023-02-16T10:54:07 < mawk> you are doing fft I suppose rustyaxe ?
2023-02-16T10:54:29 < rustyaxe> not doing anyything with it yet just trying to decide where even to start
2023-02-16T10:54:41 < rustyaxe> now that i've identified the problem and all
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2023-02-16T11:32:15 < mawk> does your μc have a DSP rustyaxe ?
2023-02-16T11:32:19 < mawk> I hope it's a stm32
2023-02-16T11:36:13 < jpa-> "have a DSP"
2023-02-16T11:36:40 < karlp> magic!
2023-02-16T11:36:43 < Steffanx-> Don't you have a DSP jpa- ?
2023-02-16T11:36:46 < karlp> you ask it questiosn and it spits out things.
2023-02-16T11:36:59 < jpa-> rustyaxe: if you have a small number of frequencies to track, use goertzel algorithm; if you need all the bins, FFT
2023-02-16T11:37:35 < Steffanx-> Delayed Sleep Phase (Disorder)
2023-02-16T11:37:40 < jpa-> Steffanx-: no, i don't eat shellfish
2023-02-16T11:38:40 < Steffanx-> I think Mawk has this disorder.
2023-02-16T11:39:02 < mawk> yes
2023-02-16T11:39:44 < Steffanx-> Yes
2023-02-16T11:39:51 < mawk> actually should be called a PSN
2023-02-16T11:40:00 < mawk> processeur de signaux numériques 
2023-02-16T11:40:12 < Steffanx-> Can you eat that?
2023-02-16T11:40:32 < mawk> if you flavor it well enough maybe 
2023-02-16T11:40:54 < Steffanx-> I better avoid it like escargot 
2023-02-16T11:42:14 < mawk> a DSP peripheral, jpa- 
2023-02-16T11:42:33 < Steffanx-> So did your lawyer send a letter to your boss yet, Mawk?
2023-02-16T11:42:40 < mawk> no 
2023-02-16T11:42:42 < mawk> why
2023-02-16T11:43:32 < Steffanx-> To get a nice amount of money from soon ex-boss
2023-02-16T11:43:33 < jpa-> mawk: what is that?
2023-02-16T11:43:50 < mawk> an IP block in the chip that answers your DSP questions
2023-02-16T11:44:02 < mawk> if you ask nicely 
2023-02-16T11:44:09 < Steffanx-> Or delays your sleep
2023-02-16T11:44:12 < Steffanx-> Phase 
2023-02-16T11:44:53 < mawk> like in the G4
2023-02-16T11:45:21 < jpa-> you mean FMAC?
2023-02-16T11:46:17 < mawk> no idea
2023-02-16T11:46:34 < mawk> ST just calls it "DSP. instructions" and "DSP IP block"
2023-02-16T11:46:54 < jpa-> DSP instructions are just part of cortex-m4 instruction set
2023-02-16T11:47:27 < jpa-> FMAC is probably the peripheral that marketing material is referencing to
2023-02-16T11:47:52 < karlp> cordic too.
2023-02-16T11:48:23 < jpa-> it can probably calculate goertzel filter or the first stage of FFT; helpful but not that huge of a difference
2023-02-16T11:49:29 < mawk> that and SIMD instructions apparently 
2023-02-16T11:49:40 < jpa-> those are in any cortex-m4
2023-02-16T11:49:44 < karlp> m4f 
2023-02-16T11:50:00 < mawk> m4f is what they call m4 + this optional DSP IP block
2023-02-16T11:50:01 < karlp> does anyone remember seeing m4 without f? I seem to remember one once, but I can't recall
2023-02-16T11:50:03 < mawk> according to st
2023-02-16T11:50:15 < karlp> it's incredibly rare anyway
2023-02-16T11:50:17 < mawk> and st says they just call it m4 because they all have a dsp 
2023-02-16T11:50:22 < mawk> block
2023-02-16T11:50:48 < jpa-> "DSP block" is such a vague marketing term that it is useless when discussing specific cases like this
2023-02-16T11:51:18 < mawk> it just means peripheral 
2023-02-16T11:51:59 < jpa-> i guess RP2040 also has a "DSP block" with their interpolator peripheral, even though it has quite few uses and even them only because the cortex-m0 instruction set limits
2023-02-16T11:52:49 < mawk> it's optional for M4, so having the DSP instructions or not having them is a precise thing
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2023-02-16T12:13:37 < zyp> karlp, IIRC some of the kinetis parts are M4 without FPU
2023-02-16T12:14:49 < ventYl> aren't lower end nrf52s also w/o FPU?
2023-02-16T12:15:50 < zyp> ref. table on last page: https://datasheet.octopart.com/MK20DX256ZVLK10-Freescale-Semiconductor-datasheet-17723213.pdf
2023-02-16T12:16:04 < zyp> MK2xF has FPU, MK2xD doesn't
2023-02-16T12:16:23 < zyp> and teensy 3 had a MK20D
2023-02-16T12:18:14 < zyp> ventYl, hmm, yeah, you're right
2023-02-16T12:18:26 < zyp> that's news to me, but I haven't used the lower end ones yet
2023-02-16T12:18:58 < zyp> nrf52820 and below are M4 without FPU, nrf52832 and up have FPU
2023-02-16T12:20:40 < karlp> who uses kinetis anyay hey?
2023-02-16T12:20:43 < karlp> mbed wat?
2023-02-16T12:21:03 < karlp> I did like the flexnvm solution though
2023-02-16T12:22:05 < ventYl> zyp: I have learned that while porting my toy scheduler to it
2023-02-16T12:22:18 < ventYl> gcc was bitching about float/non-float linkage mismatch
2023-02-16T12:22:38 < zyp> sounds like your build system is shit :)
2023-02-16T12:23:15 < ventYl> I used bare CMSIS headers, there is no information on float/non-float usable by linker in there
2023-02-16T12:24:06 < zyp> huh, there's a nrf70 now, this is news to me
2023-02-16T12:24:07 < zyp> https://www.nordicsemi.com/Products/nRF7002
2023-02-16T12:24:50 < zyp> «companion IC» makes it sounds like you don't get to run your own code on it though
2023-02-16T12:24:50 < karlp> useless though, it's "companion chip" shit
2023-02-16T12:24:57 < karlp> worse than esp32 AT mode.
2023-02-16T12:25:09 < zyp> is it?
2023-02-16T12:25:09 < karlp> quacktel offered me wifi/bluetooth "companion" chips as well.
2023-02-16T12:25:24 < karlp> just garbage, communicate entirely through another layer of apis.
2023-02-16T12:25:39 < karlp> I've not looked at the nordick one much, but the wording is not encouraging.
2023-02-16T12:25:59 < zyp> I'm just curious how it would be worse than esp32 AT mode
2023-02-16T12:26:04 < karlp> it does say it _can_ be used with non nordic hosts though, so that's more than quacktel offered.
2023-02-16T12:26:40 < zyp> > nRF7002 is a wireless companion device that is connected to a host MCU or application processor. It is connected to the host through a QSPI (6-wire) or SPI (4-wire) for data and a 3-wire or 4-wire coexistence control interface for hosts that include a Bluetooth® LE/IEEE 802.15.4 radio. In addition, two lines (HOST_IRQ and BUCKEN) are required. The user application executes on the host MCU.
2023-02-16T12:28:29 < karlp> in other words, something custom :)
2023-02-16T12:28:42 < karlp> it's not sdio to just drop into an existing linux system for instance.
2023-02-16T12:28:43 < zyp> yeah
2023-02-16T12:29:06 < zyp> well, it's not meant to drop into a linux system
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2023-02-16T12:29:43 < zyp> it's meant to drop into a microcontroller system, zephyr will probably have support if it doesn't already
2023-02-16T12:30:00 < karlp> gotta keep all those engineers doing something on zephyr
2023-02-16T12:30:16 < zyp> hmm
2023-02-16T12:30:28 < zyp> I kinda like that it only does PHY/MAC and not a full IP stack
2023-02-16T12:33:24 < zyp> oh, neat, the QSPI interface is designed to be memory mapped, it implements the standard read/write commands
2023-02-16T12:34:47 < karlp> it's software would have to be _amazing_ given that's is $5 
2023-02-16T12:35:04 < zyp> haha
2023-02-16T12:36:37 < ventYl> in 2022, i have rejected 80% candidates I have interviewed as absolutely unsatisfying
2023-02-16T12:36:46 < ventYl> and then 10% as maybe usable as juniors
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2023-02-16T13:05:24 < Steffanx-> Does that say something about the candidates or about you ventYl ?
2023-02-16T13:41:28 < ventYl> that's actually a good question
2023-02-16T13:44:56 < jbo> everybody doing well today?
2023-02-16T13:47:20 < ventYl> i have a headache and water system has an outage, so I don't have any water to drink my with my painkillers
2023-02-16T13:47:54 < jbo> I'm sorry to hear that :(
2023-02-16T13:48:02 < jbo> maybe some neighbour has a bottle of water for you?
2023-02-16T13:48:20 < jbo> alternatively, swallowing pills without any water is an easy-to-learn task :)
2023-02-16T13:48:27 < jbo> skill*
2023-02-16T13:49:06 < jpa-> or steal from toilet
2023-02-16T13:50:25 < jbo> or your partner's saliva
2023-02-16T13:50:39 < ventYl> toilet has that blueish tablette in reservoir, it is probably not drinkable anymore
2023-02-16T13:57:00 < ventYl> Steffanx-: regarding interviews, we do kind of pair programming session lasting 45 minutes. with one simple task (record performance is like 8 minutes till completed). somehow I don't understand how it is possible that 8 out of 10 people with ~10 years of experience in CV fail on that task in an absolutely miserable way.
2023-02-16T13:58:09 < jpa-> maybe the skilled people don't apply to the positions you advertise
2023-02-16T13:58:17 < jpa-> so you only get desperate people
2023-02-16T13:58:19 < Steffanx-> Nervous? Not using stack overflow? 
2023-02-16T13:59:11 < ventYl> Being nervous is certainly a factor here. For some people I can see that, there I try to calm them down
2023-02-16T13:59:20 < ventYl> unfortunately, sometimes it has directly opposite effect
2023-02-16T13:59:34 < jbo> I'm having a hard time imagining ventYl calming down a nervous person lol
2023-02-16T13:59:39 < jbo> "CALM DOWN YOU PIECE OF SHIT!"
2023-02-16T13:59:44 < jbo> FUCK THIS WINDOWS CRAP AND GET IT DONE!!!
2023-02-16T14:00:02 < jbo> oh, you already said it yourself - excellent :D
2023-02-16T14:00:18 < ventYl> yet the task is objectively extremely simple, normally it would be something like second or third week of programming class assignment
2023-02-16T14:00:39 < ventYl> jbo: :D
2023-02-16T14:00:39 < jbo> like "implement a linked list" ?
2023-02-16T14:00:46 < jpa-> ventYl: have you tried testing it on people who are already working at the company?
2023-02-16T14:01:07 < karlp> ventYl: meh, I did a timed remote test for an application a few (ok, maybe 12) years now, and I _finished_ it, but it was shit and gross in hindsight and I felt really bad about it, 
2023-02-16T14:01:18 < ventYl> jbo: actually, some people panic even more, if they panic and you start guiding them to panic less
2023-02-16T14:01:34 < karlp> I didn't get a callback, but I've thoguht a few times about _shit_ my solution really was, and why I hadn't just done x, y, or z instead.
2023-02-16T14:01:49 < karlp> sometimes things just don't work out with tests like that. *shrugs*
2023-02-16T14:02:01 < karlp> (no solution there either, nor should I claim I'm competent)
2023-02-16T14:02:02 < ventYl> karlp: was it that kind of: "we will give you a three-hours-long window in which you have to provide a solution, which we will review" ?
2023-02-16T14:02:10 < jbo> back when we still had employees, I never really did those "okay write this" kind of real-time tests. I see little point in that. I want to see that a person understands basic concepts and general langauge features. whether they can implement a container or whatever error free in 4 minutes I don't care
2023-02-16T14:02:36 < karlp> ventYl: yeah, 60 minutes or 90 or something I don't remember.
2023-02-16T14:02:41 < jpa-> i have never applied to a workplace that needed such tests, though i did test-run such a test for a colleague at one place
2023-02-16T14:02:41 < ventYl> jpa-: it was tested for a few years on freelance developers
2023-02-16T14:03:07 < karlp> I heard later I probably dodged a bullet, but I still felt bad about bombing it.
2023-02-16T14:03:24 < ventYl> karlp: well, we do it live, so I am actually looking how the code emerges rather than just reviewing the final code. that's why we do extremely simple piece of code and do it only for 45 minutes
2023-02-16T14:03:24 < karlp> I'm not sure I'd do it again honestly.
2023-02-16T14:03:39 < englishman> i don’t know if i would go through with such testing if applying to a job
2023-02-16T14:03:49 < ventYl> jbo: actually, something equally complicated. you have to create a (simple) data structure and do one operation on it.
2023-02-16T14:03:51 < karlp> we pay bar staff for their time for a tryout, I 'm not sure I'm ever prepared to do programming testing for free in the future
2023-02-16T14:04:09 < ventYl> the data structure is even optional, but IME, if you don't create it, you will fail later as you get confused by the organization of the dat
2023-02-16T14:04:15 < jpa-> usually having such a test means "we are really bad at judging applicants, so your colleagues don't know how to program"
2023-02-16T14:04:28 < jpa-> => not worth applying
2023-02-16T14:04:49 < englishman> i wonder how existing employees would perform, as you said jpa
2023-02-16T14:05:04 < jbo> jpa-, +1
2023-02-16T14:06:05 < ventYl> englishman: me too, TBH
2023-02-16T14:06:25 < jpa-> one place wife applied to had a mandatory online personality test.. with questions like "I'm not one to engage in flights of fancy" "Fully Disagree [1] ... [5] Fully Agree"
2023-02-16T14:06:50 < ventYl> because I can't understand how someone with 2+ years of experience cannot put an array of 2D points together and find a min and max of certain property in it
2023-02-16T14:06:55 < jbo> jpa-, what does that even mean?
2023-02-16T14:07:01 < jbo> "engange in flights of fancy"?! wut?
2023-02-16T14:07:25 < jpa-> jbo: who knows - it was in english so that is word-for-word, but i think it was translated to english from some other language
2023-02-16T14:07:32 < englishman> i love flights of fancy
2023-02-16T14:09:08 < jbo> breaking news: zyp donates $7.4bn to ukraine
2023-02-16T14:09:15 < jbo> didn't know he had that kind of money
2023-02-16T14:09:19 < ventYl> karlp: well, I also did some such tests and failed. With some of them because I did some stupid typo here and there and the online IDE i've been provided with didn't have any usable debugger. So a bug which would normally take 15 seconds to find with debugger robbed me of 50 minutes by placing printf()s around the code
2023-02-16T14:09:39 < jbo> online IDE wtf
2023-02-16T14:10:05 < ventYl> which is why here, the session is live and person is using whatever he or she considers to be comfortable tool for writing code
2023-02-16T14:10:14 < jbo> idd
2023-02-16T14:10:22 < jbo> ventYl probably still angry af
2023-02-16T14:10:49 < ventYl> jbo: who angry? me, during interview? actually not abit
2023-02-16T14:11:10 < ventYl> I might look strict, because I don't smile a lot
2023-02-16T14:11:12 < jbo> ventYl, dunno you just seem like one of those people that are constantly angry/pissed/frustrated/negatively-vibed
2023-02-16T14:11:18 < jbo> smiling is for wussies
2023-02-16T14:12:10 < ventYl> if I ever yelled at candidate, I'd be fired not later than 15 minutes after that interview ends
2023-02-16T14:12:37 < jbo> well, there's a difference between behaving and just being an angry person anyway under the hood :p
2023-02-16T14:13:06 < jpa-> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fo4ooLaagAEv0ew?format=jpg&name=medium   calm as bing
2023-02-16T14:13:36 < jbo> did bing get a chatgpt thingy?
2023-02-16T14:13:53 < jpa-> gpt-3 derivative, but yes
2023-02-16T14:14:03 < jpa-> apparently with much less self-restraint than chatgpt has
2023-02-16T14:14:18 < jbo> why would anybody want to have a chat bot in/for/with a search engine?
2023-02-16T14:14:27 < jbo> that would be a huge step backwards imho
2023-02-16T14:14:29 < ventYl> jbo: actually, usually the response is that people liked to chat with me, because they've learned new things
2023-02-16T14:14:33 < jpa-> because you can ask it stuff that you don't know the name of
2023-02-16T14:14:57 < jbo> jpa-, so people will know even less than they already do :p
2023-02-16T14:15:16 < jbo> ventYl, totally get that! not arguing anyway :p
2023-02-16T14:15:17 < englishman> jbo, because search engines need to increase time spent on website metrics, so they think they can answer user questions better than the site they should be linking to
2023-02-16T14:15:25 < jpa-> jbo: you think that knowledge magically appears when people don't know the search terms to use?
2023-02-16T14:15:47 < jbo> jpa-, no, but I think that knowledge magically disappears when people can be even more lazy
2023-02-16T14:16:01 < jpa-> i assume you don't use google then
2023-02-16T14:16:16 < jbo> rarely
2023-02-16T14:16:30 < jbo> (still daily but rarely compared to what I observe around me)
2023-02-16T14:16:59 < jpa-> there is way too much information in modern world to remember even a tiny bit of it
2023-02-16T14:17:30 < jpa-> if you can't use tools, you just end up being happy not knowing what you don't know
2023-02-16T14:18:19 < jbo> I know what you mean / what you're getting at and I generally agree.
2023-02-16T14:18:55 < jbo> just not sure how a arguing with a chat/language model is helping anybody :p
2023-02-16T14:19:10 < jbo> might just as well talk to actual people then
2023-02-16T14:19:35 < jpa-> chatgpt is quite helpful for getting the right search terms
2023-02-16T14:19:56 < jpa-> bing bot is just microsoft quality for now, but it is an interesting development
2023-02-16T14:26:41 < Steffanx-> jbo: https://pastebin.com/KHjGpLPX satisfied with the answer?
2023-02-16T14:27:46 < jbo> that's IMHO yet another empty/useless answer but sure
2023-02-16T14:27:55 < Steffanx-> Awesome. 
2023-02-16T14:29:33 < Steffanx-> I'm not sure ##stm32 would give you a better answer though 
2023-02-16T14:32:52 < jbo> I wouldn't expect a better answer. it is a valid answer.
2023-02-16T14:32:53 < Steffanx-> I mean a more satisfying answer 
2023-02-16T14:35:54 < englishman> remember when ask jeeves or maybe altavista wanted to be the "find
2023-02-16T14:36:01 < englishman> “ engine instead of the “search” engine
2023-02-16T14:36:14 < englishman> i figure it’s what the intention is here
2023-02-16T14:36:27 < englishman> prevent you from leaving the search engine website because the answer is provided
2023-02-16T14:37:09 < ventYl> i tend to search for multiple answers and comparing them. serving one source of truth inside the engine directly clashes with my goals
2023-02-16T14:37:33 < ventYl> there were numerous cases where the highest-hanging answer was not even remotely correct, or even relevant
2023-02-16T14:38:25 < englishman> isn’t that due to search engines corrupting their own results and making themselves less valuable to their users in the name of revenue
2023-02-16T14:39:11 < ventYl> it is probably a habit from altavista days, where having one of search keywords on page was sufficient to show up in results
2023-02-16T14:39:41 < englishman> yes well the search set was also much smaller then
2023-02-16T14:40:05 < englishman> and we had not gone through generations of malicious players
2023-02-16T14:40:56 < ventYl> these days internets are poisoned by hoards of copywriters generating useless shit
2023-02-16T14:41:02 < ventYl> so it is hard to find on topic content
2023-02-16T14:41:10 < ventYl> even if it exists
2023-02-16T15:02:25 < karlp> I'm a SEO specialist and my wife is an influencer, our budget is 100million...
2023-02-16T15:03:18 < ventYl> that's not necessary to fuck the internet up
2023-02-16T15:03:28 < braindamage> to be fair, influencers existed before the internet, they were just called VIP
2023-02-16T15:04:21 < braindamage> the massive commercialization of the internet imo was one of the leading factors to current day's situation
2023-02-16T15:04:29 < ventYl> far the biggest damage is done by copying the obvious by many resellers who are trying to sell some shit
2023-02-16T15:05:13 < ventYl> such as sellers of thermostatic valves will clog the internet up with hundreds of empty articles stressing the importance of controlling the room temperature to everyone's needs
2023-02-16T15:05:51 < ventYl> making any actually useful piece of information entirely unavailable
2023-02-16T15:06:34 < ventYl> and such damage can be done by $15 / A4 page of text copywriter
2023-02-16T15:08:19 < karlp> so, I managed to claim a gpio with pyhon-gpiod, and now it won't claim it again. gotta figure out how to _release_ it
2023-02-16T15:08:26 < karlp> pretty sure I didn't have to do that in the past..
2023-02-16T15:12:22 < mawk> shutdown() on the socket or whatever
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2023-02-16T15:18:55 < karlp> lol no, the socket is way gone.
2023-02-16T15:19:01 < karlp> the kernel believes it to be in use, 
2023-02-16T15:19:06 < karlp> the application that requested it is gone.
2023-02-16T15:19:21 < braindamage> lsof the file
2023-02-16T15:19:47 < karlp> yeah, finally found it, process monitoring had restarted it behind my back.
2023-02-16T15:19:49 < karlp> fucking thing.
2023-02-16T15:20:01 < karlp> doing what I told it do like a damn robot, instead of what I wanted it do 
2023-02-16T15:30:39 < ventYl> TIL hart in risc-v world means hardware thread
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2023-02-16T15:42:05 < karlp> yeah, get used to a world of new terms 
2023-02-16T15:42:10 < karlp> they didn't like core
2023-02-16T15:42:18 < karlp> or, hwthread
2023-02-16T15:43:57 < ventYl> I wonder if they nicknamed swthread "soft" :)
2023-02-16T15:44:28 < ventYl> I have realized, that with bl602, or sifive e2 core, I am two PMP regions short vs. what I typically use
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2023-02-16T17:59:30 < Sadale> damn. I can't talk in the GD32 telegram channel for now. My account got limited by telegram. :/
2023-02-16T18:00:04 < rustyaxe> telegram?
2023-02-16T18:00:32 < Sadale> A telegram group that I was modding had spam problem. Another mod told me to send him sample spam messages so that he could block that by keywoards. I did so and since my message contained the spam, Telegram thought that I was a spammer and limited my account. :/
2023-02-16T18:00:46 < rustyaxe> no idea what telegram is
2023-02-16T18:00:54 < Sadale> It's been a few days. Not sure if my restriction would ever be lift.
2023-02-16T18:01:12 < Sadale> Telegram is an instant messenger. It's outside of IRC.
2023-02-16T18:01:21 < Sadale> This group has a Telegram counterpart.
2023-02-16T18:01:27 < Sadale> s/group/channel/
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2023-02-16T18:20:00 < Steffanx-> Poor sadele 
2023-02-16T18:21:03 < specing> Sadale: hahahaha
2023-02-16T18:21:36 -!- Ad0 [~Ad0@93.124.245.194] has joined ##stm32
2023-02-16T18:21:41 < Sadale> Geez. I'm helping on fighting spam and I'm not a spammer. I'm their ally, not their enemy. Stupid automod of Telegram. :(
2023-02-16T18:22:23 < specing> free labour for a proprietary social network
2023-02-16T18:22:37 < Sadale> disposable free labor. :/
2023-02-16T18:23:02 < rustyaxe> EUSER (814): User error, replace user.
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2023-02-16T19:36:08 < jpa-> https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Wurth%20Electronics%20PDFs/WA-SMSx_Performance_Flyer.pdf   i wonder why this solderable screw standoff specifies that the hole must not be plated - seems like that would be stronger
2023-02-16T19:40:07 < braindamage> the thing I can think of, is that it makes an electrochemical reaction that rusts it
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2023-02-16T19:47:55 < englishman> probably breaks easier when temp cycling
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2023-02-16T22:04:31 < zyp> jpa-, what are you using those for? I'm just looking at the same stuff now
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2023-02-16T22:18:21 < Laurence_b> https://www.rtl-sdr.com/the-us-airforce-may-have-shot-down-an-amateur-radio-pico-balloon-over-canada/
2023-02-16T22:18:29 < Laurence_b> busted
2023-02-16T22:18:35 < Laurence_b> inb4 everything is b&
2023-02-16T22:19:01 < Laurence_b> tho if they do ban balloons you could just troll the US by launching balloon armadas at them
2023-02-16T22:22:58 < Laurence_b> as someone on twitter pointed out, balloons are already regulated, and picoballoons are specifically legal. If they tried to ban them they would have to shoot down a bazillion escaped party balloons
2023-02-16T22:23:43 < Laurence_b> hopefully they only want to stop huge 4real spy balloons, but us has got batshit crazy so who knows
2023-02-16T22:26:06 < specing> Laurence_b: yeah; I'm fully expecting china to go trollmode and just launch a thousand balloons
2023-02-16T22:28:05 < Laurence_b> FAA are generally sensible guys so hopefully they can talk sense into rest of us government..
2023-02-16T22:28:57 < specing> even if they ban balloons what are they gonna do, row over to china and arrest someone?
2023-02-16T22:29:27 < specing> right now they're using $400_000 missiles from jets that prolly cost $10000 per flight hour to shoot down $1000 of ballloon
2023-02-16T22:30:56 < Laurence_b> lol
2023-02-16T22:31:24 < Laurence_b> Guardian newspaper claims they could be spotting flying bin bags lmao
2023-02-16T22:31:35 < Laurence_b> probably not actually true but it would be lulzy
2023-02-16T22:33:18 < specing> or party balloons
2023-02-16T22:35:57 < Laurence_b> https://www.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/comments/111ksvv/anyone_else_concerned_about_k9yo15/
2023-02-16T22:36:00 < Laurence_b> wew
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2023-02-16T23:03:29 < machinehum> tf is this https://imgur.com/a/jUy6HzG
2023-02-16T23:03:37 < machinehum> Some type of TSOP POP
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2023-02-16T23:07:02 < Steffanx-> Stacking for dummies?
2023-02-16T23:07:37 < Steffanx-> What's this machinehum ?
2023-02-16T23:07:53 < machinehum> Yeah
2023-02-16T23:10:12 < englishman> specing f-22 costs much more than $10k per hour
2023-02-16T23:10:26 < englishman> part of the reason f-35 was adopted so quickly
2023-02-16T23:17:53 < Steffanx-> I mean what ic is it machinehum 
2023-02-16T23:18:04 < machinehum> K9MDG08U5M
2023-02-16T23:18:27 < machinehum> Trying to find a 16GB TSOP flash that isn't package on package
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--- Day changed pe helmi 17 2023
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2023-02-17T00:29:42 < karlp> zyp: is this what you want for your fpga adventure: https://github.com/the-aerospace-corporation/satcat5
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2023-02-17T00:41:17 < zyp> that's kinda cute
2023-02-17T00:41:58 < zyp> if I'm reading it right, that's effectively a switch core with a bunch of pluggable interfaces
2023-02-17T00:43:33 < zyp> hmm, somehow I've never really thought much about running ethernet over uart
2023-02-17T00:44:49 < zyp> but something like SLIP, bridged to a regular ethernet network should work fine
2023-02-17T00:45:13 -!- Laurence_b [~Laurence_@30.177.208.46.dyn.plus.net] has joined ##stm32
2023-02-17T00:45:29 < zyp> or just raw ethernet frames over cobs for that matter
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2023-02-17T01:13:35 < kaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wLS5TN8CPM musics
2023-02-17T01:19:40 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.nl/pic/orig/media%2FFpGue09WcAQQ5Am.jpg
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2023-02-17T01:35:03 < kaki> Steffanx-: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071615/ watch this for me
2023-02-17T01:36:23 < kaki> then tell me if it's good
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2023-02-17T01:38:15 < kaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4O9C-HEqWA musics for tommorow
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2023-02-17T03:16:52 < Thorn> what's the lowest operational voltage of different types of aa/aaa batteries? will I need a boost converter if I have 2x aaa in series and I need min Vdd=2.5V?
2023-02-17T03:28:57 < specing>  Thorn  check out lygte info discharge graphs
2023-02-17T03:29:01 < specing> and yes
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2023-02-17T04:03:29 < jadew> https://www.reddit.com/r/HolUp/comments/1141pbz/lets_fight_but_hol_up/
2023-02-17T04:03:40 < jadew> off to bed o/
2023-02-17T04:13:25 < rustyaxe> why AA/AAA? you can get a nice little 3.5Wh lithium pouch free out of any disposable vape. 1.50$ usb charging board and life's good (thats how i handle my sensor network)
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2023-02-17T06:18:50 < specing> fire network
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2023-02-17T07:57:41 < jpa-> zyp: stacking two pcbs
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2023-02-17T10:05:19 < zyp> jpa-, I'm looking at using them for my M.2 style modules
2023-02-17T10:08:57 < zyp> actual M.2 standoffs seems to have a lip that the modules rest against, rather than directly against the screw: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/31hQn4RLBAL.jpg
2023-02-17T10:09:10 < zyp> and they're often screwed into a solder-in standoff
2023-02-17T10:09:37 < zyp> but I didn't find anything that looked suitable for my stacking height
2023-02-17T10:09:57 < zyp> so I think I'll just do a plain standoff with a M2.5 screw
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2023-02-17T12:35:03 < jbo> g'day everybody!
2023-02-17T13:03:59 < karlp> Thorn: nimh nominal is only 1.2V, so yeah, I'd do a single cell with a boost, or careful choice of buck/boost if you want 2.5
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2023-02-17T13:31:17 < Steffanx-> Gooday sir jbo 
2023-02-17T13:31:20 < Steffanx-> Where is tct
2023-02-17T13:41:42 < jbo> at your service
2023-02-17T13:46:03 < Steffanx-> You're not being helpful :P
2023-02-17T13:46:28 < jbo> ;p
2023-02-17T14:13:24 < zyp> jadew, https://twitter.com/VictorTaelin/status/1626372332775145477
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2023-02-17T15:39:55 < braindamage> https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2023/RCLRPT-23V085-3451.PDF and https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/02/tesla-to-recall-362758-cars-because-full-self-driving-beta-is-dangerous/
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2023-02-17T18:17:08 < rustyaxe> braindamage: lol
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2023-02-17T19:12:35 < ventYl> braindamage: well, I guess, that sooner than later, it will be banned completely, as it is effectively a Level4 autonomy testing programme, which shall follow some procedures and have skilled safety drivers behind the wheel
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2023-02-17T19:45:28 < karlp> zyp: ethercat solution for you? https://www.cnx-software.com/2023/02/14/arduino-ethercat-master-runs-freedos-on-vortex86ex2-x86-processor/
2023-02-17T19:45:38 < karlp> everybidy loves dos right?
2023-02-17T19:48:25 < jpa-> as long as it is free
2023-02-17T19:51:50 < Steffanx-> pass, kaki  
2023-02-17T19:52:00 < kaki> did you watch it?
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2023-02-17T19:59:46 < kaki> Steffanx-: I wanted to know where samples from songs like "In/Out" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knFBVfdjXv4 or "Group sex" are from.. apparently from the movie the holy mountain
2023-02-17T20:00:07 < Steffanx-> no, and i wont watch it kaki 
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2023-02-17T20:46:07 < englishman> karl do ethernet solutions typically use those purpose made mcus for protocol? or own stuff?
2023-02-17T20:46:14 < englishman> *ethercat
2023-02-17T20:46:24 < englishman> example https://www.microchip.com/en-us/products/high-speed-networking-and-video/ethernet/ethercat-technology-solutions
2023-02-17T20:47:16 < englishman> even st recommends them https://www.st.com/en/partner-products-and-services/port-ethercat.html
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2023-02-17T20:49:42 < zyp> ethercat slaves needs a special MAC
2023-02-17T20:51:26 < zyp> instead of sending a bunch of requests and response frames, an ethercat master sends a single request frame which passes through all the slaves and gets rewritten with responses on the fly, before it loops back to the master
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2023-02-17T20:52:00 < zyp> so the master starts receiving the response while it's still transmitting the request
2023-02-17T20:52:03 < englishman> yes, but i’m wondering if there are some mcu impls of this or if everyone buys microchip
2023-02-17T20:52:19 < zyp> I think netX is fairly common
2023-02-17T20:52:23 < zyp> IIRC that's hilscher
2023-02-17T20:52:58 < englishman> ok, so there is some choice
2023-02-17T20:53:20 < zyp> I think fpga implementations are common too
2023-02-17T20:54:06 < englishman> oh very cool https://www.hilscher.com/products/embedded-modules/communication-module
2023-02-17T20:54:29 < zyp> also TI has some stuff, e.g. AM64x
2023-02-17T20:55:22 < englishman> i noticed a competing product supports Ethernet/IP, EtherCAT, and Profinet in the same product (different variants) so I assume there is some module in there they swap out
2023-02-17T20:55:59 < zyp> or same hardware, different firmware
2023-02-17T20:56:22 < zyp> or gateware, in the case of fpga-based solutions
2023-02-17T20:56:40 < zyp> netx is like that, it can do everything with the right firmware
2023-02-17T20:57:15 < englishman> yes with their ComX it looks like firmware / parameters only
2023-02-17T20:57:22 < englishman> cool
2023-02-17T20:57:55 < englishman> i wonder why legacy companies like lantronix didn’t attack this market
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2023-02-17T21:03:40 < englishman> thanks!
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2023-02-17T22:28:04 < Ecco> Hi!
2023-02-17T22:29:34 < Ecco> Could an improperly configured LSE lead to some bugs even if it's not used as a clock source? I've this H7 where misconfiguring the LSE seems to break USART6.
2023-02-17T22:29:47 < Ecco> (even though USART6 is not clocked from LSE)
2023-02-17T22:31:30 < Ecco> (the misconfiguration being an improper drive level)
2023-02-17T23:02:19 < qyx> check the errata
2023-02-17T23:02:42 < qyx> if it is obviously unrelated, there might be something about it inside
2023-02-17T23:02:51 < qyx> also, check backup domain powered GPIO
2023-02-17T23:03:06 < qyx> there are usually some with limited drive capability
2023-02-17T23:03:40 < qyx> it should be mentioned in the datasheet in the gpio electrical specs section
2023-02-17T23:04:49 < qyx> which pins do you use for USAART6?
2023-02-17T23:05:38 < Ecco> I've found this in the refman: Note: UARTs also need the LSE clock when high baud rates are not required.
2023-02-17T23:05:53 < Ecco> In the "kernel clock" section.
2023-02-17T23:06:30 < qyx> a very specific formulation
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2023-02-17T23:22:15 < Ecco> It doesn't really make sense, does it?
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2023-02-17T23:22:28 < Ecco> Why would an UART need the LSE?
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--- Day changed la helmi 18 2023
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2023-02-18T00:01:51 < Laurence_b> >bing chat is a nut because it chatgpt trained on faceberg
2023-02-18T00:01:54 < Laurence_b> kek if true
2023-02-18T00:21:21 < Steffanx-> Ok
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2023-02-18T00:47:43 < Steffanx-> Did you watch the movie yet Kaki?
2023-02-18T00:47:51 < kaki> nop
2023-02-18T00:53:10 < Steffanx-> Will you any time soon?
2023-02-18T00:53:34 < Laurence_b> wait wut
2023-02-18T00:53:46 < Laurence_b> pixhawk uses nuttx rather than chibios
2023-02-18T00:53:53 < Laurence_b> chibios on suicide watch
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2023-02-18T00:54:34 < Laurence_b> also the absolute state of murica with radio id for even rc planes
2023-02-18T00:54:40 < Laurence_b> enjoy ur freedumz murimutts
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2023-02-18T02:23:36 < machinehum> ChibiStudio
2023-02-18T02:23:49 < machinehum> "Note that the toolchain is meant to be used by an user "chibios" and must be installed under:
2023-02-18T02:23:51 < machinehum> /home/chibios/Projects/ChibiStudio
2023-02-18T02:23:53 < machinehum> wtf
2023-02-18T02:26:17 < kaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcJSW7Rprio storing files without using mem
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2023-02-18T13:24:45 < qyx> martinmoene: lol'd
2023-02-18T13:24:51 < qyx> sorry machinehum ^
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2023-02-18T14:01:25 < jbo> good morning everybody
2023-02-18T14:01:33 < jbo> how's everyone doing today?
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2023-02-18T16:58:56 < mawk> zyp there is a room with 100 lights, and a queue of 100 people
2023-02-18T16:59:16 < mawk> all lights are initially off; then the first person toggles every light
2023-02-18T16:59:25 < mawk> the second person toggles every other light
2023-02-18T17:00:01 < mawk> then the third every 3rd light, and so on until the 100th person
2023-02-18T17:00:10 < mawk> what is the final state of the light array?
2023-02-18T17:00:25 < mawk> which light numbers are on and which are off
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2023-02-18T17:03:50 < Laurence_b> kekking hard
2023-02-18T17:03:51 < Laurence_b> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6tcIhReI2w
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2023-02-18T17:28:37 < mawk> try it too jadew 
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2023-02-18T18:25:27 < zyp> mawk, you haven't specified the phase offset of «every nth»
2023-02-18T18:25:53 < zyp> if everybody starts by toggling the first light, you end up with [0, 1, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0]
2023-02-18T18:26:18 < zyp> but if everybody start at the nth light, you end up with [1, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1]
2023-02-18T18:29:04 < zyp> it's effectively the same pattern, just offset by one
2023-02-18T18:31:17 < mawk> the second one zyp 
2023-02-18T18:31:25 < mawk> people number n toggles every multiple of n
2023-02-18T18:31:37 < mawk> the first light has number 1
2023-02-18T18:32:02 < mawk> so do you recognize the pattern?
2023-02-18T18:32:13 < zyp> odd numbers
2023-02-18T18:32:23 < zyp> I mean odd number increases
2023-02-18T18:32:53 < mawk> yeah
2023-02-18T18:33:01 < mawk> but there's an easier way to say it too
2023-02-18T18:33:01 < zyp> if you start from 0, +1 gets you first light, then +3, +5, +7 and so on
2023-02-18T18:33:13 < mawk> if you look at the number of the lights that are on
2023-02-18T18:33:26 < mawk> [1, 4, 9, ...]
2023-02-18T18:33:47 < zyp> ah, duh, square roots
2023-02-18T18:33:59 < zyp> or, squares of integer roots
2023-02-18T18:34:05 < mawk> yeah
2023-02-18T18:34:08 < mawk> perfect squares
2023-02-18T18:34:34 < mawk> because perfect squares are the only number with an odd number of divisors 
2023-02-18T18:34:54 < mawk> non-squares always have an even number of divisors 
2023-02-18T18:35:02 < mawk> it's not too hard to see why
2023-02-18T18:35:43 < mawk> for a non-square all the divisors come by pair, for instance 12 = 1×12 = 2×6 = 3×4
2023-02-18T18:35:55 < mawk> 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 12
2023-02-18T18:36:36 < mawk> but for a square it goes like this: 9 = 1×9 = 3×3
2023-02-18T18:36:56 < mawk> you've got twice the same divisor in the list, so there is an odd number of them
2023-02-18T18:40:23 < mawk> there are other ways to prove that fact, some that require no thinking and just cranking the handle
2023-02-18T18:41:06 < Steffanx-> But how does all this help come to the original question.
2023-02-18T18:41:16 < Steffanx-> And solve it without a computer 
2023-02-18T18:41:37 < mawk> well we know what only the square-numbered lights are on at the end
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2023-02-18T18:41:41 < zyp> because number of divisors is how many times a light get toggled
2023-02-18T18:41:42 < mawk> and all the others are off
2023-02-18T18:41:43 < Laurence_b> sheeeet
2023-02-18T18:41:50 < zyp> odd number of toggles = on
2023-02-18T18:41:59 < mawk> if you have a prime factor decomposition n = Π pi^ai then all the divisors are of the form Π pi^bi with 0 ≤ bi ≤ ai
2023-02-18T18:42:13 < mawk> so you have exactly Π (ai + 1) divisors of n
2023-02-18T18:42:26 < mawk> and the only way for that to be odd is if all the ai are even 
2023-02-18T18:42:35 < mawk> and all the ai even means that n is a perfect square
2023-02-18T18:42:51 < mawk> ai is the exponent of the ith prime factor in the decomposition 
2023-02-18T18:43:04 < Steffanx-> Oh makes sense. Another one of those. You know the solution when you know the solution math problems :P
2023-02-18T18:43:19 < mawk> I didn't know the solution beforehand
2023-02-18T18:43:40 < mawk> you just have to experiment a bit like zyp did
2023-02-18T18:43:58 < mawk> with a little script you see easily that only squares are on
2023-02-18T18:50:34 < Steffanx-> Mawk: So now they only toggle the next one when the previous one is on after they toggled. Go!
2023-02-18T18:51:24 < mawk> what do you mean
2023-02-18T18:51:42 < Steffanx-> Yeah let me rephrase.
2023-02-18T18:51:43 < mawk> 10 → 00 but 00 → 11 ?
2023-02-18T18:52:13 < mawk> they stop at the first 1
2023-02-18T18:55:01 < mawk> Steffanx- 
2023-02-18T18:55:55 < Steffanx-> Yeah nevermind 
2023-02-18T18:56:11 < mawk> noooo tell me 
2023-02-18T18:56:21 < Steffanx-> Too lazy to actually state all conditions properly 
2023-02-18T18:56:30 < mawk> :(
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2023-02-18T23:46:01 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.nl/pic/orig/media%2FFpIHcO1XsAMSvgn.jpg
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--- Day changed su helmi 19 2023
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2023-02-19T11:19:54 < Sadale> This channel seems to have more members than it used to be back when it was in freenode.
2023-02-19T11:20:01 < Sadale> I remember that it had like maybe only 50 users or so.
2023-02-19T11:29:44 < Steffanx-> Lies
2023-02-19T11:30:27 < Steffanx-> Maybe during the exodus 
2023-02-19T11:30:40 < Steffanx-> Or the start of the channel 
2023-02-19T11:31:06 < Steffanx-> Otherwise have those memory chips up there replaced Mr Sadale 
2023-02-19T11:32:18 < Steffanx-> I mean. Hi good morning Sadale . How's the day?
2023-02-19T11:32:37 < Sadale> haha maybe I just remembered it wrong.
2023-02-19T11:32:50 < Sadale> Steffanx-, nothing much. Working on hobbyist electronics as usual
2023-02-19T11:33:08 < Steffanx-> Shocking?
2023-02-19T11:33:12 < Sadale> nope
2023-02-19T11:33:17 -!- Irssi: ##stm32: Total of 91 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 91 normal]
2023-02-19T11:33:19 < Sadale> What shocking?
2023-02-19T11:34:09 < jpa-> with r2com and dongs missing, laurenceb has a tough job drying to scare everyone away
2023-02-19T11:37:18 < Sadale> hooray! I guess it's time for me to help scaring everyone away from this channel! :D
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2023-02-19T11:51:53 < Steffanx-> Electronics can be shocking, Sadale 
2023-02-19T11:52:14 < Sadale> nah. Mine isn't shocking :3
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2023-02-19T11:57:14 < Steffanx-> Maybe a new shocking toy?
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2023-02-19T14:53:08 < jbo> moin
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2023-02-19T16:07:18 < Steffanx-> Gooday
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2023-02-19T23:44:58 < Laurence_b> https://i.imgur.com/B3eD5dI.png
2023-02-19T23:45:02 < Laurence_b> truly epic fail
2023-02-19T23:46:43 < braindamage> ah, good old laurenceb, king of context
2023-02-19T23:51:07 < Laurence_b> arcing motor stator
2023-02-19T23:51:55 < Laurence_b> the absolute state of that fibreglass tape
2023-02-19T23:55:05 < Laurence_b> there is supposed to be 5mm overlap
--- Day changed ma helmi 20 2023
2023-02-20T00:24:00 < specing> Laurence_b: looks like it needs some ducttape
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2023-02-20T08:54:35 < rob_w> good morning .. where would i find the actual source code of a discovery kit ... 
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2023-02-20T09:41:47 < jpa-> rob_w: you mean the original demo program?
2023-02-20T09:52:08 < rob_w> basicly yes jpa- 
2023-02-20T09:52:44 < rob_w> i am confused between stm32 system workbench, cube and embedded wizards 
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2023-02-20T10:07:43 < jpa-> dunno about those, never used any of them
2023-02-20T10:08:19 < jpa-> but usually you can find the demo programs from the st.com page for the specific discovery kit you are using
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2023-02-20T11:44:26 < jpa-> hmm, have i figured this out correctly: a FPC cable between two identical connectors (e.g. both bottom contact) always swaps pin order? pin 1 connects to pin N and vice-versa?
2023-02-20T11:45:54 < jpa-> hmm, unless i have one of those cables that has connections on opposite sides
2023-02-20T11:46:50 < jpa-> i guess i have had one of those in the past, because in some earlier designs i don't think i have reversed pins in schematic but the result has worked :)
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2023-02-20T11:57:25 < ventYl> another interview another WTF
2023-02-20T11:57:53 < ventYl> arrays and loops are for noobs, pros pass everything as named arguments and unroll loops
2023-02-20T12:13:12 < Steffanx-> Maybe the interviewed one was testing you, ventYl 
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2023-02-20T12:59:11 < jbo> sexyness check! how is everybody feeling?
2023-02-20T13:26:38 -!- Kerr [~quassel@2601:602:ce80:ac20::303b] has joined ##stm32
2023-02-20T13:52:54 < Steffanx-> I feel very sexi, jbo.
2023-02-20T13:53:51 < jbo> :)
2023-02-20T14:05:23 < jpa-> jbo: no, your current livestream sexiness is like 1/10
2023-02-20T14:05:33 < jpa-> who really wants to watch you eat your toenails?
2023-02-20T14:14:59 < jbo> wtf
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2023-02-20T15:05:52 < Steffanx-> I think jbo fakes being shocking. 
2023-02-20T15:59:40 < zyp> jpa-, I fucking hate that shit
2023-02-20T16:04:48 < zyp> IMO the only sane use for bottom/bottom or top/top FPCs are applications that calls for a crossed cable, e.g. identical devices on both ends with the cable responsible for crossing tx and rx
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2023-02-20T16:06:07 < zyp> anything that expects to be hooked up 1:1 should use top/bottom cables and stop fucking with the connector pin 1 locations
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2023-02-20T16:31:22 < jpa-> in my case, i'd like to connect two stacked PCBs together, and having the cable go in U-shape between identical connectors seems easiest
2023-02-20T16:31:53 < jpa-> (i could use direct board-to-board connectors, but then i'll be annoyed when i'd want to probe anything in between)
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2023-02-20T16:37:42 < kaki> Steffanx-: i hope this musics meets your standards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAvKNAXre14
2023-02-20T16:37:55 < zyp> jpa-, I'd use a top-bottom cable for that
2023-02-20T16:38:07 < jpa-> and cable in S-shape?
2023-02-20T16:38:14 < jpa-> or top & bottom connectors
2023-02-20T16:38:47 < zyp> or put the connector on the top board on the top of the board and route the cable around the edge
2023-02-20T16:39:06 < jpa-> or through a hole, yeah; all could work :)
2023-02-20T16:39:11 < zyp> especially useful if you're doing single sided assembly and wants the other cables on the top
2023-02-20T16:39:54 < zyp> but yeah, either of those options works, and means you don't have to fuck around mirroring the signals in the schematic
2023-02-20T16:40:50 < jpa-> they should invent moebius cables
2023-02-20T16:41:18 < zyp> they did, it's called usb-c
2023-02-20T16:44:03 < karlp> yeah, C-shape vs s-shape and top/bottom and same/same is a nightmare :)
2023-02-20T16:53:24 < jpa-> i again have so many tabs open that i wish firefox allowed to backward/forward between recently activated tabs :D
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2023-02-20T19:54:55 < jadew> I asked chatGPT to pretend his name is Bob and he's on IRC basically and to only answer whenever he feels like it, and it kept answering everything, even stuff not directed at him, "because he was the knowledgeable one, not the other person", so I asked it to give me a message it wouldn't answer to, and this is what it responded: https://pastebin.com/QSFxcHzA
2023-02-20T19:55:18 < jadew> great sense of humor
2023-02-20T19:59:09 -!- nerozero [~nerozero@87.253.63.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
2023-02-20T20:43:50 < jpa-> i have been trying to test chatgpt with real questions.. for example in this one it provided a plausible answer but quoted non-existent sentence from documentation as the source  https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/chatgpt_ecp5.png
2023-02-20T20:48:03 < Steffanx-> Lolol 
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2023-02-20T20:55:01 < Steffanx-> heh, i get a different answer jpa-. It says 512-bits here. And when i ask where this comes from its corrects itself and says its 256-bits :D
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2023-02-20T20:57:29 < jadew> I tested it with specs for transistors and it spews out wrong numbers
2023-02-20T20:57:51 < jadew> but they look like they could be real
2023-02-20T20:58:08 < Steffanx-> Yeah that's what all this is about.
2023-02-20T20:59:04 < jadew> maybe bingbot can access the actual info and give you correct results?
2023-02-20T20:59:58 < Steffanx-> Before it starts yelling at you
2023-02-20T21:00:02 < Steffanx-> ?
2023-02-20T21:00:13 < jadew> lol, yeah
2023-02-20T21:01:38 < rustyaxe> bing: (Auto from Chinese): Disease, ill, illness, to fall ill, to be ill.
2023-02-20T21:02:18 < rustyaxe> 病
2023-02-20T21:03:28 < jadew> and my company name means testicles in spanish, but I sell electronics
2023-02-20T21:04:07 -!- qyx [~qyx@84.245.121.195] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
2023-02-20T21:04:08 < rustyaxe> sometimes you need testicles to sell electronics, it makes sense.
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2023-02-20T21:14:05 < Laurence_b> truly epic fail https://i.imgur.com/pNruyJ5.png
2023-02-20T21:14:51 < Laurence_b> >conductor at weird angle > no fibreglass overlap > obvious damage
2023-02-20T21:15:01 < Laurence_b> the absolute state of the hypermotors
2023-02-20T21:36:08 < Laurence_b> lol fails at 300v
2023-02-20T21:47:26 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.nl/pic/media%2FFpa-wq8WAAM8P1A.png%3Fname%3Dsmall
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2023-02-20T22:59:16 < karlp> huh, neat, have an esp32c3 periodic sync'ed to a ch582.
2023-02-20T22:59:32 < karlp> that was quick and easy.
2023-02-20T23:01:16 < qyx> ble on c3?
2023-02-20T23:01:18 < qyx> using esp-idf?
2023-02-20T23:02:06 < karlp> yeah
2023-02-20T23:02:39 < karlp> minor mods to this one: https://github.com/openwch/ch583/tree/main/EVT/EXAM/BLE/SYNC_ADV
2023-02-20T23:03:08 < karlp> and minor mods to this one: https://github.com/espressif/esp-idf/tree/master/examples/bluetooth/bluedroid/ble_50/peroidic_sync
2023-02-20T23:04:09 < karlp> esp32 is _super_ wordy and kinda gross api thoughs.
2023-02-20T23:04:26 < karlp> and their examples are totalyl busted, it doesn't resync if it ever loses sync, it j ust ends :
2023-02-20T23:04:28 < karlp> :)
2023-02-20T23:06:52 < aandrew> "esp32c3 periodic sync'd to ch582" ?
2023-02-20T23:08:01 < aandrew> just sounds like tx/rx advertising reports, no?
2023-02-20T23:12:36 < karlp> no, this is the bt 5 "periodic sync" shit, 
2023-02-20T23:12:58 < karlp> I mean, yeah, this is a "yes, it does the bt5 shit it says it does"
2023-02-20T23:13:08 < karlp> but it's nice when things work they way they say they should.
2023-02-20T23:13:47 < karlp> periodic advertising takes out the jitter from normal advertising, so you can have one advertising, and potentially many listeners, that all wake up a tthe correct time to hear the ad.
2023-02-20T23:14:13 < karlp> normal advertising is explicitly jittery to ensure they spread out and all advertisements can be heard well.
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2023-02-20T23:35:36 < aandrew> right
2023-02-20T23:38:09 < englishman> zyp: hirscher recommended NetIC, looks even more useful for mcu-based products
2023-02-20T23:41:27 < englishman> *hilscher
--- Day changed ti helmi 21 2023
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2023-02-21T00:13:57 < qyx> do we have a tool to flash stm32 from android?
2023-02-21T00:14:02 < qyx> mass storage maybe?
2023-02-21T00:14:11 < qyx> hm that could actually work
2023-02-21T00:14:20 < qyx> with stlink v3
2023-02-21T00:15:20 < qyx> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.yatrim.stlinkp&hl=en&gl=US
2023-02-21T00:17:57 < zyp> englishman, even more than what?
2023-02-21T00:18:10 < zyp> hmm, that's a netx-based module?
2023-02-21T00:18:59 < zyp> ah, yeah, netx-based dip-style module
2023-02-21T00:19:29 < englishman> ah didn’t i link a module the other day? ComX is a bit overkill, it’s more for high speed stuff with several hundred MHz ram
2023-02-21T00:20:00 < zyp> ah, right
2023-02-21T00:20:30 < zyp> so that's just different form factors of netx modules
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2023-02-21T00:42:48 < englishman> yeah these small ones are just modbugs over uart or spi, and flashable to support each protocol
2023-02-21T00:43:08 < englishman> will get pricing tomorrow, what’s your guess? $50?
2023-02-21T00:43:30 < englishman> with good software support maybe $100?
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2023-02-21T11:55:43 < mawk> can I do usb host with a stm32
2023-02-21T11:55:58 < jpa-> the ones with OTG support can act as a host
2023-02-21T11:56:01 < mawk> ooo
2023-02-21T11:56:04 < mawk> nice
2023-02-21T11:57:18 < mawk> I have a nice USB NFC reader/emulator, it's maybe easier to use that rather than make my own design with a pcb antenna which I know nothing about
2023-02-21T11:57:33 < mawk> I want to do a portable mifare klassik emulator
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2023-02-21T12:04:20 < karlp> just use one of these: http://www.orangepi.org/html/hardWare/computerAndMicrocontrollers/details/Orange-Pi-Zero-LTS.html
2023-02-21T12:04:33 < karlp> or  rpi zero or whatever.
2023-02-21T12:04:37 < karlp> pyusb on the host, done.
2023-02-21T12:07:02 < mawk> with a nice battery then
2023-02-21T12:07:14 < mawk> if I have linux I can use libnfc directly even
2023-02-21T12:11:15 < jpa-> why not just buy flipper zero or similar?
2023-02-21T12:11:38 < karlp> because then you have to do deal with "hakkker" people
2023-02-21T12:11:55 < karlp> and he wants to be a maker, not a hakkkker
2023-02-21T12:12:02 < mawk> lol
2023-02-21T12:12:05 < mawk> because it's expensive jpa- 
2023-02-21T12:12:18 < mawk> I would get proxmark3 otherwise
2023-02-21T12:13:01 < jpa-> or just use a phone, can't they emulate nfc?
2023-02-21T12:13:21 < mawk> they can read and write mifare classic, but not emulate
2023-02-21T12:13:30 < mawk> at least with a non-rooted phone
2023-02-21T12:13:34 < mawk> android doesn't give full access to the NFC apis
2023-02-21T12:19:10 < mawk> https://lab401.com/fr/products/icopy-x
2023-02-21T12:19:16 < mawk> this is a portable version of proxmark3
2023-02-21T12:19:19 < mawk> but it's a bit expensive
2023-02-21T12:19:28 < mawk> I saw knockoffs on aliexpress for $40 though
2023-02-21T12:20:01 < mawk> $40 is still 3 days of drugs so it's a lot
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2023-02-21T13:19:49 < ventYl> your drugs are somewhat cheap. $40 is like 3 days of smoking these days
2023-02-21T13:20:16 < ventYl> ok, 3 to 4
2023-02-21T13:30:56 < braindamage> https://chaos.social/@Dennis/109893564771069255 found jadew
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2023-02-21T13:45:03 < karlp> lol, put a rssi over time chart to monitor my fleet of btle devices.  want to demo one getting weaker.
2023-02-21T13:45:07 < karlp> can't.
2023-02-21T13:45:24 < karlp> gonna go over to the shop and buy some alfoil
2023-02-21T13:50:06 < jpa-> lucky you
2023-02-21T13:50:27 < jpa-> whenever i try to demo btle range, i just walk out my front door and immediately connection lost
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2023-02-21T14:01:49 < benishor> fucking crap
2023-02-21T14:02:28 < benishor> how would I mitigate a bitrate difference between a usb host and an mcu feeding data in an i2s handler?
2023-02-21T14:02:51 < benishor> I suppose there are definitive solutions to this problem by now?
2023-02-21T14:36:28 < jpa-> you can use either PC controlled timing ("adaptive timing" in USB audio class specs), or device controlled timing ("asynchronous timing")
2023-02-21T14:37:34 < jpa-> generally asynchronous timing provides the best audio quality, if your device has an accurate clock
2023-02-21T14:38:02 < jpa-> check section 3.3 in https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/audio10.pdf
2023-02-21T14:47:26 < fenugrec> go overboard, sync both host and device to GPSDO clocks to the nearest 1ppb. Might get an inaudible audio glitch every few centuries
2023-02-21T14:56:03 < jpa-> at that point, you could just sync them to the same clock anyway
2023-02-21T14:56:23 < fenugrec> wonder if usb CRS gets you "close enough"
2023-02-21T14:56:29 < jpa-> it's not like you are going to hear the difference between GPS clock and a basic crystal oscillator
2023-02-21T14:58:00 < jpa-> USB CRS is basically "synchronous timing" as specced in the standard - it nominally works, but pages on web claim it is riddled with glitches - i think the PC side is not that good at syncing the operating system with the USB controller clock rate
2023-02-21T14:58:16 < ventYl> fucking dumb windows terminal
2023-02-21T14:59:22 < braindamage> wrt audio glitches, a couple of ms of skipped audio is audible, which is like, 50 samples or so
2023-02-21T15:00:26 < braindamage> you will hear that something is wrong, but not be able to pinpoint what
2023-02-21T15:03:37 < benishor> thanks jpa
2023-02-21T15:03:51 < benishor> I believe tinyUSB implements async timing
2023-02-21T15:04:19 < benishor> however I do get some weird behaviour
2023-02-21T15:08:20 < benishor> my setup:
2023-02-21T15:08:21 < benishor> a) I2S configured for 48K samplerate
2023-02-21T15:08:23 < benishor> b) tinyUSB UAC2.0 configured for 8KHz samplerate
2023-02-21T15:08:25 < benishor> c) if I use tud_audio_tx_done_post_load_cb() to fill the USB buffer with data coming from a simple oscillator running at 8KHz, everything is nice and dandy
2023-02-21T15:08:26 < benishor> d) if I use tud_audio_tx_done_post_load_cb() to fill the USB buffer with data coming from a ring buffer into which the I2S handler spits data (decimated for the target 8KHz samplerate), then I get gaps between audio blocks
2023-02-21T15:09:26 < benishor> the only thing I can think of is that the clocks of PC and I2S are slightly different, which may cause the problem
2023-02-21T15:11:57 < jpa-> have you verified that the data in the callback (before you send it to USB) is correct?
2023-02-21T15:12:07 < jpa-> you can e.g. push it out to STM32 integrated DAC and scope it
2023-02-21T15:12:50 < braindamage> since it's audio, you can run a continous resampler to handle mismatched clocks
2023-02-21T15:13:00 < braindamage> eg with a cic filter ( cascaded interpolator comb )
2023-02-21T15:17:48 < benishor> does that allow for fractional rates?
2023-02-21T15:18:11 < benishor> how do external usb cards handle this?
2023-02-21T15:19:45 < braindamage> yes fractional rates
2023-02-21T15:19:54 < zyp> if you've got a tunable clock, you could tune it to match the host clock
2023-02-21T15:19:58 < braindamage> you can also use a simple fir
2023-02-21T15:20:52 < zyp> I've also seen hosts that can tune the SOF rate to sync up to a device
2023-02-21T15:21:21 < jpa-> the async mode as implemented should work fine, as long as  1) your device side actually gives gapless buffers  2) the device advertises synchronization type 5 (asynchronous isochronous) in the endpoint descriptor and 3) the host side driver is not totally stupid
2023-02-21T15:21:36 < jpa-> i would check 1) and 2) before assuming 3)
2023-02-21T15:21:40 < zyp> that's a lot of assumptions
2023-02-21T15:22:33 < jpa-> because 1) and 2) you can fix, and seems unlikely that 3) would be universally broken
2023-02-21T15:30:03 < benishor> so, drilling down on the problems I have...
2023-02-21T15:30:06 < benishor> this code https://pastebin.com/XvzyFMHU
2023-02-21T15:30:11 < benishor> generates this, from a reset:
2023-02-21T15:30:15 < benishor> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88h0mZOsuiU&ab_channel=AdrianScripc%C4%83
2023-02-21T15:30:46 < benishor> no buffer, no nothing. just feeding data into tinyUSB callback 
2023-02-21T15:31:36 < benishor> there seems to be a tuning performed by somebody at startup
2023-02-21T15:31:47 < benishor> where I would have expected a steady flow of data
2023-02-21T15:35:17 < jpa-> have you tried modifying your software generator code to randomly give more or less samples and continue from same point next time? assuming that is what happens in your i2s callback?
2023-02-21T15:36:00 < benishor> in this particular test (what I pasted above), I2S is not even being used
2023-02-21T15:36:17 < benishor> so it's just streaming a software oscillator to USB audio 
2023-02-21T15:36:22 < benishor> in tinyUSB callbacks
2023-02-21T15:36:48 < mawk> how to run the joulescope software from any linuks:
2023-02-21T15:36:52 < mawk> docker container run --name ubuntu --network host --hostname ubuntu --privileged -it -v /dev/bus/usb:/dev/bus/usb -v /tmp/.X11-unix/X0:/tmp/.X11-unix/X0 --init -e DISPLAY=:0 joulescope:latest /root/joulescope_0_10_13/joulescope_launcher
2023-02-21T15:36:55 < mawk> isn't that beautiful
2023-02-21T15:37:05 < mawk> I should blog about it and get famous
2023-02-21T15:37:19 < mawk> joulescope:latest is just a regular ubuntu image in which I installed the joulescope software
2023-02-21T15:37:49 < karlp> didyou push joulsescope:latest to dockerhub or something, as just joe blow?
2023-02-21T15:37:59 < mawk> no
2023-02-21T15:38:08 < mawk> I probably wouldn't be allowed to do that
2023-02-21T15:38:12 < benishor> mawk: you should make a docker compose file to go with it
2023-02-21T15:38:21 < karlp> so you need a bunch of other shit before hand to _create_ your docker image
2023-02-21T15:38:25 < mawk> I have a nice stm32cubeide:latest image I made too, that you can use to compile headless stm32cubeIDE projects
2023-02-21T15:38:34 < benishor> put all those params inside
2023-02-21T15:38:36 < karlp> just getting on the internet and lying about "just run this from any linux"
2023-02-21T15:38:37 < Mangy_Dog> I have a question regarding the new ultra cheap PY chips... Ive seen they use a  "PY LInk" to do SWD programming... any reason why a stlink wont do the job?
2023-02-21T15:38:38 < mawk> but if I push it to dockerhub ST's lawyer will try to assassinate me
2023-02-21T15:38:39 < karlp> fucking numbnuts
2023-02-21T15:38:46 < Mangy_Dog> or can a stlink be made to work?
2023-02-21T15:38:52 < mawk> karlp: it's a ubuntu image in which I copied the joulescope software
2023-02-21T15:39:07 < mawk> there's nothing else in it
2023-02-21T15:40:32 < mawk> and that's not the most interesting part, the interesting part is the parameters to allow USB connection from inside the container and the X11 forwarding; the image thing anyone can do it themselves
2023-02-21T15:41:10 < karlp> you're out of your fucking mind :)
2023-02-21T15:41:26 < mawk> it's very easy
2023-02-21T15:42:02 < mawk> you make a fresh ubuntu:latest container, then you use `docker container cp' to put the files inside and then you do `docker container commit' to make an image out of it, and it's done
2023-02-21T15:42:54 < mawk> I can push the image to dockerhub if you cover my legal fees for when joulescope attorneys sue me
2023-02-21T15:43:07 < karlp> you're running it in privileged mode anyway, why not just fuckign run the joulescope software itself?
2023-02-21T15:44:25 < benishor> probably in order not to drag in all dependencies on the host
2023-02-21T15:44:42 < benishor> but at this point appimage or snap would do the same thing
2023-02-21T15:44:43 < benishor> except better
2023-02-21T15:46:57 < mawk> because it wanted dependencies that my debian install didn't have
2023-02-21T15:47:06 < mawk> like cutting edge libc or something like that
2023-02-21T15:47:14 < mawk> so it was easier to make a container rather than update my system
2023-02-21T15:47:34 < mawk> well if they provided an appimage I'd gladly run it
2023-02-21T15:48:23 < mawk> I discovered that on windows you can't run simultaneously joulescope and otii arc software for some reason
2023-02-21T15:49:26 < zyp> haha
2023-02-21T15:51:01 < karlp> lol, debian stable == debian unusuable again then I see :)
2023-02-21T15:51:26 < zyp> is it?
2023-02-21T15:51:41 < karlp> well, if he's complaining about not even having a libc, 
2023-02-21T15:52:00 < karlp> jsut reminds me of trying to run debian stable on my desktop years back, 
2023-02-21T15:52:31 < mawk> I'm on oldstable I guess
2023-02-21T15:52:34 < mawk> I didn't update in a while
2023-02-21T15:52:40 < zyp> I'm currently using a computer running debian stable, can't say that's an issue
2023-02-21T15:53:42 < mawk> yeah it's the first time it's a problem, I don't know why they target such a recent version of libc6
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2023-02-21T15:57:57 < karlp> I guess when I was last on debian stable you didn't have docker/appimage/snap images to work around it :)
2023-02-21T15:58:27 < zyp> mawk, what's your /etc/debian_version?
2023-02-21T16:02:11 < benishor> jpa-: oh wow, problem seems to be related to the pulse loopback module
2023-02-21T16:02:37 < benishor> I tried recording with audacity directly from the interface and there are no gaps
2023-02-21T16:02:41 < benishor> fucking linux audio
2023-02-21T16:02:51 < benishor> you can't trust anything
2023-02-21T16:07:03 < zyp> mawk, wait, why the fuck are you using the prebuilt package for joulescope-ui? just install it from pypi
2023-02-21T16:07:43 < zyp> I mean, it'll still probably break if you're running something old as fuck with an outdated python, but still
2023-02-21T16:08:17 < zyp> no wonder shit breaks
2023-02-21T16:08:19 < zyp> «Built for Ubuntu 22.04 LTS only. Use source for other distributions.»
2023-02-21T16:15:37 < mawk> yeah it's a ubuntu 22.04 container I made
2023-02-21T16:15:40 < mawk> everything is perfect
2023-02-21T16:16:03 < mawk> it says 11.3
2023-02-21T16:16:27 < mawk> even from pypi it wants Qt libraries or something like that
2023-02-21T16:17:05 < zyp> 11 is current stable, same as I've got here
2023-02-21T16:17:10 < zyp> pypi packages works fine for me
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2023-02-21T16:23:30 < mawk> o
2023-02-21T16:23:36 < mawk> i'll try that then
2023-02-21T16:23:38 < mawk> thanks
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2023-02-21T16:50:46 < jpa-> benishor: pulse wants to configure all interfaces to specific samplerates and resamples otherwise, perhaps your device is ignoring or mishandling some control requests
2023-02-21T16:52:17 < benishor> jpa-: my device offers only one configuration so fuck it
2023-02-21T16:52:42 < benishor> I set it as default input device in ubuntu
2023-02-21T16:52:56 < benishor> and then I loaded the pa loopback module with a latency of 1ms 
2023-02-21T16:53:12 < benishor> to hear what the input from USB sounds like
2023-02-21T16:53:25 < benishor> so errors must be generated there somewhere
2023-02-21T16:53:25 < jpa-> latency of 1 ms might also be a bit fully, when your USB device only provides data every 1 ms
2023-02-21T16:53:43 < jpa-> that's a silly assumption, any bug in your own code can manifest in different ways in different situations
2023-02-21T16:53:43 < benishor> I tried different latencies to no avail
2023-02-21T16:54:20 < jpa-> you need to actually debug and check data to determine where the problem occurs, and check what parameters are given to the device to see what affects it
2023-02-21T16:54:23 < benishor> the minute I bypass the whole pulse/pipewire crap and I simply read from the interface (with audacity in this case), all gaps are gone
2023-02-21T16:54:38 < benishor> so it's not my code
2023-02-21T16:54:45 < jpa-> instead of just blaming things randomly and assuming your code is perfect just because it happens to work in one case
2023-02-21T16:55:17 < benishor> I would debug more if I only knew where to look
2023-02-21T16:55:29 < benishor> I don't know what pipewire/pulse is doing behind my back
2023-02-21T16:55:37 < benishor> where resamplings happen and in what way
2023-02-21T16:56:14 < benishor> but the fact that one client manages to consume the stream I provide in a satisfying fashion, makes me think it's not my code to blame
2023-02-21T16:56:34 < benishor> if you have any ideas, I am keen to learn
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2023-02-21T17:27:27 < karlp> well, the question sort of becomes, who's the end user of this?
2023-02-21T17:27:48 < karlp> and is "don't try and use any of your exisitng system, only use this particular method" acceptable?
2023-02-21T17:37:48 < jpa-> benishor: i have provided ideas - for example, you said it works ok when you generate the data using the sine simulator, so i suggested modify your sine simulator to provide varying amount of samples
2023-02-21T17:38:20 < jpa-> but yeah, if it is only for you, no point making it perfect
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2023-02-21T18:09:35 < fenugrec> https://i.imgur.com/MrI5o1f.png
2023-02-21T18:12:24 < karlp> my arrays start at 1...
2023-02-21T18:12:39 < jpa-> lualoops
2023-02-21T18:18:55 < mawk> matlab
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2023-02-21T20:43:22 < Steffanx-> You didnt write methlab properly, mawk  
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2023-02-21T23:50:48 < karlp> heh, was just having a "wot" moment, modem kept appearing and dissappearing in linux
2023-02-21T23:51:06 < karlp> turns out it just doens't have enough power over the usb-micro-b from an unpowered hub dangling off my laptop
2023-02-21T23:51:18 < karlp> and it was browning out and resetting whiel it was trying to turn on and look for the network :)
2023-02-21T23:51:26 < karlp> plugged in the actual pwoer supply, no problem.
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--- Day changed ke helmi 22 2023
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2023-02-22T01:19:00 < kaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYwxHSZglnI musics
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2023-02-22T14:30:58 < qyx> karlp: you are a ble pro now, would you use it for a small photovoltaic application? (to avoid doing PLC) about 5-10 devices, battery packs, mppt regulators, etc.
2023-02-22T14:31:46 < qyx> how much hassle is it to provision such setup in field?
2023-02-22T14:37:52 < zyp> would probably work fine
2023-02-22T14:38:01 < zyp> it's the sort of stuff my employer does
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2023-02-22T15:12:35 < mawk> wow I updated the firmware of my ubloks nb-iot chip
2023-02-22T15:12:43 < mawk> and it didn't even error out in the middle and brick the module
2023-02-22T15:13:02 < karlp> qyx: probably.  being in every phone is pretty winner IMO.
2023-02-22T15:13:16 < karlp> "small pv applicaiton" means nothing to me though :)
2023-02-22T15:13:29 < karlp> what do you want to send, what do you need to provision, who are you sending what too, at what rate, blah blah blha
2023-02-22T15:34:44 < braindamage> normally the tradeoff in all communication channels is bandwith vs snr, and since distance reduces snr, it becomes bandwith vs distance
2023-02-22T15:35:02 < braindamage> so you can have high distance low speed channel, or viceversa
2023-02-22T15:40:49 < qyx> karlp: a smartgrid-like setup, quick deployable in field, probably something like 4 panels with regulators, two battery packs, some datalogger,all connected in parallel
2023-02-22T15:41:55 < qyx> I need to know what components are in the system, which component generate power, how much, how much power is being sunk, what's the SoC of the battery packs
2023-02-22T15:42:17 < qyx> low bandwidth, less than 5 meter distance
2023-02-22T15:43:05 < qyx> auto discovery would be much easier over PLC though because with BLE there is some ambiguity whether the component is connected to the same "grid"
2023-02-22T15:43:51 < braindamage> can't have pairing button?
2023-02-22T15:44:02 < qyx> I probably can
2023-02-22T15:44:49 < qyx> can I pair BLE devices creating a group which would remain persistent?
2023-02-22T15:44:58 < qyx> even when I disconnect from the phone?
2023-02-22T15:45:08 < zyp> yes
2023-02-22T15:45:17 < zyp> you don't need to involve a phone at all
2023-02-22T15:46:06 < zyp> if you have sort of like a central controller, you could have everything including phone bond to that
2023-02-22T15:46:22 < zyp> i.e. phone talks to central controller, central controller talks to the rest
2023-02-22T15:46:51 < zyp> the last project I worked on does exactly that, has a central controller and three other BLE nodes
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2023-02-22T15:56:33 < qyx> thinking about it a bit more, I basically need a full mesh of 10 nodes forming a single multicast group
2023-02-22T15:58:00 < qyx> with the possibility to pair devices with pushing a button on a group me!ber and at the same time (or within a specified time) on a new device
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2023-02-22T16:11:12 < karlp> if you want "multicast" that's advertising, and you don't need to pair
2023-02-22T16:11:33 < karlp> bluetooth classic piconet is just N p2p connections, there's no real multicast.
2023-02-22T16:11:57 < BrainDamage> isn't that more like broadcast?
2023-02-22T16:11:58 < karlp> but yeah, devices being both peripheral/central at hte same time makes this kinda "easy"
2023-02-22T16:12:11 < karlp> that's what the "" were fore :)
2023-02-22T16:14:48 < qyx> hm
2023-02-22T16:16:00 < qyx> I know BT is shit, everybody knows that, I am just opening another failure vector with it
2023-02-22T16:16:14 < qyx> I should probably stop doing that
2023-02-22T16:16:52 < mawk> is it possible that a NB-IoT operator doesn't support PSM?
2023-02-22T16:17:07 < mawk> I have unexplained power consumption going on
2023-02-22T16:17:16 < karlp> bt's awesome.
2023-02-22T16:17:20 < karlp> you want to do PLC? really?
2023-02-22T16:18:49 < qyx> yes that's my ultimate goal
2023-02-22T16:20:03 < zyp> have you considered just running a can bus or similar along the power?
2023-02-22T16:21:13 < qyx> yeah but that would require special cabling
2023-02-22T16:21:35 < qyx> I have considered AC coupling the signal to a PE condictor
2023-02-22T16:21:51 < qyx> which is floating in a IT system, so should be pretty easy
2023-02-22T16:22:04 < qyx> but the EMC guys would not like it
2023-02-22T16:23:21 < BrainDamage> the trick is to lean from wolkswagen and just make sure the comm is disabled during the tests
2023-02-22T16:23:43 < qyx> :>
2023-02-22T16:24:46 < BrainDamage> are the unit outdoors? otherwise you could use standard cables, like eg stereo jack cables
2023-02-22T16:25:06 < qyx> outdoors with circular connectors
2023-02-22T16:27:32 < BrainDamage> here's a dumb idea: spdif connectors and cables
2023-02-22T16:28:09 < drzacek> qyx, esp-now
2023-02-22T16:28:17 < qyx> for 20 amp?
2023-02-22T16:28:27 < BrainDamage> cheaply available, low speed and fairly weatherproof since it's plastic
2023-02-22T16:28:57 < BrainDamage> for the data
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2023-02-22T17:08:58 < mawk> what kind of IC do you use for PLC qyx 
2023-02-22T17:09:30 < mawk> you mean the optic fiber BrainDamage ?
2023-02-22T17:12:30 < qyx> none yet
2023-02-22T17:13:31 < BrainDamage> yes, altough calling it an optic fiber is an insult, since it's not much better than https://dp.ssb-media.com/images/alt_302861_4_2x.jpg
2023-02-22T17:15:24 < qyx> I am going to desolder the USB3 connector on a bananapi board I have
2023-02-22T17:15:44 < qyx> and reroute usb2 part of it to the second minipcie slot
2023-02-22T17:15:46 < qyx> wish me luck
2023-02-22T17:16:13 < qyx> those 2 pins are NC, so I don't need to cut any traces
2023-02-22T17:16:38 < qyx> but it is around 10 cm so I should do it properly
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2023-02-22T17:57:04 < Mangy_Dog> https://twitter.com/MD_Builds/status/1628420846342619136
2023-02-22T18:31:34 < karlp> whee, I can send/receive sms's on my quacktel now too.
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2023-02-22T21:40:41 < qyx> openwrt pros, I can't find an aarch64 target toolchain, do I really need to compile it?
2023-02-22T21:40:45 < qyx> because I refuse to
2023-02-22T21:40:49 < qyx> it is 2023 already
2023-02-22T21:41:57 < zyp> your distro doesn't ship one?
2023-02-22T21:42:12 -!- Thorn [~Thorn@user/thorn] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
2023-02-22T21:42:22 < qyx> not for uclibc target, or it doesn't matter?
2023-02-22T21:42:37 < qyx> https://openwrt.org/docs/guide-developer/toolchain/using_the_sdk
2023-02-22T21:42:38 < qyx> oh!
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2023-02-22T22:08:28 < englishman> zyp: hilscher is the real deal, thanks for the reference. $60USD in quantity for this https://www.hilscher.com/products/embedded-modules/netx-chip-carrier/nrp-h90 with built in 100 MHz cortex-m4 app processor, all protocols supported, it could turn out that we don't have to modify existing app code at all to support industrial ethernet.
2023-02-22T22:17:53 < karlp> yeah, if adding $60 to the bom is viable for your product and needs :)
2023-02-22T22:18:02 < zyp> nice
2023-02-22T22:18:02 < karlp> but  yeah, they're the "sovle this problem" people
2023-02-22T22:18:02 < Steffanx-> I think itll take r&d 2 years, englishman  
2023-02-22T22:18:14 < karlp> and explicitly for the "just swap the module for different bits"
2023-02-22T22:18:26 < englishman> oh definitely
2023-02-22T22:18:53 < englishman> well karl "industrial ethernet" adds $2000 to the sell price so i think it's worth it
2023-02-22T22:19:08 < englishman> more like $4k for the competition
2023-02-22T22:19:16 < karlp> I think you have a stream of people here who'd love to replace your r&d department...
2023-02-22T22:19:20 < englishman> yes
2023-02-22T22:19:28 < qyx> lol
2023-02-22T22:19:28 < englishman> i'm one of them
2023-02-22T22:19:40 < zyp> maybe I should tell oldboss «how about we just throw out the entire network stack and put in a hilscher module instead?»
2023-02-22T22:19:44 < englishman> yes
2023-02-22T22:20:03 < englishman> well keep in mind i just got off the sales pitch so i'm all starry-eyed
2023-02-22T22:20:06 < englishman> but they look fine
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2023-02-22T23:34:25 < fenugrec> nice. Rewrite libusb bulk transfer to request (n * MaxPacketSize) , 10ms timeout : all transfers timeout. I don't believe in USB anymore. Bring back rs232
2023-02-22T23:35:01 < zyp> windows?
2023-02-22T23:37:05 < fenugrec> zyp,  yea. https://bpa.st/FKN3Y  since last week I tried libusb + different backends (libusbK, libusb, winusb) and they all crash except winusb
2023-02-22T23:37:42 < zyp> sounds like a windows thing
2023-02-22T23:39:28 < fenugrec> maybe
2023-02-22T23:40:01 < fenugrec> just doesn't feel like I'm asking for something unreasonable. Why the fuck does this need to be so difficult
2023-02-22T23:41:39 < fenugrec> "want user-mode USB ? sure, use winusb. Shit performance, deal with it" thanks winAPI
2023-02-22T23:42:38 < rustyaxe> im more surprised when things actually work properly on windows than when they dont :P
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--- Day changed to helmi 23 2023
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2023-02-23T00:08:38 < fenugrec> zyp, you were calling libusb_fill_bulk_transfer() with length == n * maxpacketsize, correct ? that seems to be a major source of problems here, as soon as I set n > 1
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2023-02-23T00:25:26 < zyp> correct
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2023-02-23T00:26:37 < fenugrec> AAAAA "It's also not guaranteed that transfers will continue back-to-back even if you do queue up multiple transfers. The WinUSB backend will not do this currently.  " https://github.com/libusb/libusb/issues/1205 whyyyy
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2023-02-23T10:13:06 < jadew> BrainDamage, I haven't used it for code yet
2023-02-23T10:14:16 < jadew> but I think I will use copilot eventually, I just need to figure out what it sends to microsoft
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2023-02-23T10:18:41 < jadew> chatGPT is close to useless these days: "As an AI language model, I cannot provide recommendations for movies that include explicit content or nudity."
2023-02-23T10:24:07 < jadew> ffs..
2023-02-23T10:24:23 < jadew> managed to get it to recommend Nymphomaniac, but it won't recommend me what I ask it to
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2023-02-23T10:36:25 < jadew> hah! made it to answer :D
2023-02-23T10:37:43 < jadew> although, I wanted movies about ancient egypt with nudity/scantily clad women and it recommended Aladdin, the Disney animation because Jasmine wears revealing clothes
2023-02-23T10:38:10 < jadew> it did give some good recommendations too tho :D
2023-02-23T10:39:23 < jadew> it complained about morality and ethics, so I told it that morality and ethics are subjective, and the people it's talking to, come from a society where sexuality doesn't fall on the moral spectrum :D
2023-02-23T10:41:27 < jadew> I hope next versions won't require a dive into philosophy in order to get a straight answer out of them
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2023-02-23T10:57:05 < karlp> lol, "Protecting IP Cameras: From Serious Security Risk to Trusted Asset, with One IC"
2023-02-23T10:59:50 < jadew> I would like an IP camera that didn't work through a 3rd party service
2023-02-23T11:00:11 < jadew> that would be a huge security boost
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2023-02-23T13:01:15 < mawk> if I keep the stm32 in reset is it the same as putting it in stop mode?
2023-02-23T13:01:19 < mawk> like not consuming power
2023-02-23T13:01:39 < jbo> Steffanx-, aisler just arrived
2023-02-23T13:01:57 < qyx> mawk: no numbers for reset po wer consumption in the datasheet?
2023-02-23T13:02:04 < qyx> jbo: is it ok?
2023-02-23T13:02:13 < jbo> my very first time would be over then
2023-02-23T13:02:28 < jbo> qyx, pretty good, yeah. notably ´worse´ than eurocircuits but also like 1/3 of the price
2023-02-23T13:02:50 < jbo> it´s only a simple 2L board tho. wanted to test something simple before I give them real munney
2023-02-23T13:03:16 < jbo> their ENIG seems to be different tho
2023-02-23T13:04:03 < jbo> overall quality is better than what I expected for the price tho
2023-02-23T13:09:11 < jbo> thanks for the recommendation (aisler)
2023-02-23T13:09:29 < jbo> Steffanx- told me that you (qyx) usually go for them
2023-02-23T13:09:52 < qyx> yeah most of the time, 2L and 4L
2023-02-23T13:10:41 < jbo> still curious why their ENIG is so different than what I get from $$$ supplier
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2023-02-23T13:51:51 < karlp> different in what way?
2023-02-23T13:57:52 < jbo> looks less shiny :p
2023-02-23T14:00:24 < Miyu> as long as it's fit for purpose, I guess :)
2023-02-23T14:00:43 < Miyu> I have used Aisler a fair bit in the past, they seem okay, though the web GUI is a bit of a PITA
2023-02-23T14:01:12 < Miyu> their PCBA service got a lot cheaper recently, though
2023-02-23T14:01:20 < Miyu> no more setup fees
2023-02-23T14:03:48 < karlp> yeah, their web gui is far too cool and modern IMO, I've not repriced assembly after they changed it a lot, mgith be worth trying again.
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2023-02-23T15:19:45 < jbo> the silkscreen quality is definitely better than I expected
2023-02-23T16:00:13 < Steffanx-> I don't like your negative mindset jbo 
2023-02-23T16:00:33 < Steffanx-> You shouldnt go in with such negative expectations 
2023-02-23T16:08:20 < jbo> heh
2023-02-23T16:08:26 < jbo> well, thanks for the recommendation, Steffanx- 
2023-02-23T16:12:27 < Steffanx-> You're welcome jbo. I'm glad you're positively surprised
2023-02-23T16:14:11 < jbo> too bad I ordered components a day too late.
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2023-02-23T16:57:55 < mawk> why is alium so slow to start
2023-02-23T16:58:08 < zyp> get a better computer
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2023-02-23T17:05:50 < Steffanx-> Just keep Altium running forever
2023-02-23T17:06:12 < Steffanx-> But i agree. It takes ages
2023-02-23T17:07:09 < zyp> that's actually what I do
2023-02-23T17:07:34 < zyp> I've got altium in a VM (naturally, since I don't run windows otherwise), and when I'm done I just suspend the whole VM
2023-02-23T17:08:12 < zyp> so next time I just resume the VM and altium is ready to go
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2023-02-23T17:43:46 < Steffanx-> Until it crashes.
2023-02-23T17:46:39 < mawk> does a ftdi have a pull-up on the rx pin?
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2023-02-23T18:43:16 < BrainDamage> https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/22/google-asks-some-employees-to-share-desks-amid-office-downsizing.html
2023-02-23T18:43:22 < rustyaxe> lol
2023-02-23T18:45:31 -!- MGF_Fabio [~MGF_Fabio@host-188-12-181-228.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
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2023-02-23T19:02:02 < kaki> is there an automatic machine to remove loose hair from cats?
2023-02-23T19:02:37 < specing> a shaver?
2023-02-23T19:03:36 < kaki> automatic
2023-02-23T19:03:52 < kaki> I mean at most you throw the cat in the machine
2023-02-23T19:04:06 < kaki> then press button to start the program
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2023-02-23T19:15:18 < BrainDamage> a hair drier might work, and terrify your cat at the same time
2023-02-23T19:15:32 < BrainDamage> add a scratch pad and you'll get the nails done at the same time
2023-02-23T19:28:08 < jpa-> tumble dryer
2023-02-23T19:31:15 < zyp> can't you just vacuum it?
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2023-02-23T19:56:39 < englishman> you have to lick it yourself
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2023-02-23T20:09:35 < Steffanx-> Coughing up furballs every day.
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2023-02-23T21:49:49 < qyx> so I replaced ICM-42688-P with IIM-42652
2023-02-23T21:50:00 < qyx> and at the same time STM32L451 with STM32L462
2023-02-23T21:50:14 < qyx> now, guess where is the catch, SPI receives all zeroes
2023-02-23T21:52:46 < sauce> gpio af mapping?
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2023-02-23T21:54:50 < qyx> hm, nope
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2023-02-23T21:57:25 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.nl/pic/media%2FFpprq1JXgAUa5-B.png%3Fname%3Dsmall
2023-02-23T21:58:22 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.nl/pic/media%2FFpqTHF2X0AAK3RV.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall
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2023-02-23T22:06:47 < qyx> hah bad soldering job
2023-02-23T22:13:14 < Steffanx-> Why qyx?
2023-02-23T22:15:49 < qyx> I am sorry
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2023-02-23T22:33:38 < qyx> zyp: playing with IIM-42652
2023-02-23T22:33:48 < qyx> it works and is software compatible with ICM-42688-P
2023-02-23T22:34:14 < qyx> except the temperature sensor is on by default and adds about 1.5 mA to power consumption figures
2023-02-23T22:40:47 < Laurence_b> arggg wtf id microchip do to the avr datashits
2023-02-23T22:40:54 < Laurence_b> do you even table of contents
2023-02-23T22:41:36 < zyp> qyx, fun
2023-02-23T22:42:20 < zyp> I started on mine last monday and managed to hook it up but then I got interrupted by other projects before I had time to do the firmware side
2023-02-23T22:42:40 < zyp> I think I'll get back to it tomorrow
2023-02-23T22:43:28 < zyp> today I was reviewing some well polished code
2023-02-23T22:43:43 < zyp> well polished, as in most of the comments were in polish
2023-02-23T22:46:50 < BrainDamage> more polish than poland before ww2
2023-02-23T22:49:07 < qyx> zyp: so far the noise is good and temperature drift is much much less than IIS3DHHC
2023-02-23T22:50:19 < qyx> now I am at 0.5 mA average sampling at 25 Hz (with L4 and 32768 TCXO)
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2023-02-23T22:50:35 < qyx> and doing stop1 with freertos
2023-02-23T23:01:48 < Laurence_b> >more polish than poland before ww2
2023-02-23T23:01:58 < Laurence_b> wasnt it unironically full of GERMans
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2023-02-23T23:18:47 < kaki> yeah the cat machine would be required to not terrify cats
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2023-02-23T23:40:33 < qyx> LoRa connects even on a u.fl connector with the pigtail disconnected
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2023-02-23T23:42:40 < qyx> I have put it in a alu box, didn't help
2023-02-23T23:46:25 < qyx> rssi:-106
2023-02-23T23:46:27 < qyx> still too much
2023-02-23T23:48:32 < karlp> heh, this was me the other day with btle. couldn't make it shut up
2023-02-23T23:48:48 < karlp> I regularly use wifi aroudn the office on just the ufl connector.
2023-02-23T23:48:55 < karlp> it's good for not drowning out everyone else :)
2023-02-23T23:52:33 < qyx> -109 with batteries in the box
--- Day changed pe helmi 24 2023
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2023-02-24T00:17:51 < jbo> kicad
2023-02-24T00:17:53 < jbo> what you doing
2023-02-24T00:19:24 < Steffanx-> Kicad does nothing.
2023-02-24T00:20:21 < specing> kicad is innocent
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2023-02-24T00:37:21 < jbo> I screwed up
2023-02-24T00:37:41 < jbo> I added some mounting holes to accomodate M3 screws and I put "M4" next to them on the silkscreen
2023-02-24T00:37:49 < jbo> like a real idiot
2023-02-24T00:51:49 < zyp> nice
2023-02-24T00:52:27 < BrainDamage> literally screwed
2023-02-24T01:00:54 < jbo> indeed
2023-02-24T01:01:02 < jbo> no shame in sharing it tho
2023-02-24T01:01:11 < jbo> gotta share those laughts
2023-02-24T01:08:45 < Steffanx-> Fool.
2023-02-24T01:10:24 < BrainDamage> don't worry, hook chatgpt to kicad and you'll too benefit from "do what I mean, not what I say"
2023-02-24T01:12:54 < Steffanx-> Made yourself an account yet ?
2023-02-24T01:15:44 < BrainDamage> no, instead I get my curiosity satisfied by taunting people with accounts with silly prompt ideas
2023-02-24T01:15:46 < BrainDamage> why work when you can get others do it for you
2023-02-24T01:19:20 < Steffanx-> I could paste chatGPT's answer here, but its too much
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2023-02-24T02:01:32 < Laurence_b> top kek https://nitter.nl/pic/media%2FFppofxBXgAEP-2m.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall
2023-02-24T02:01:36 < Laurence_b> Hillary really going somewhere
2023-02-24T02:05:26 < Laurence_b> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_We_Can_Save
2023-02-24T02:05:30 < Laurence_b> >Poetry
2023-02-24T02:05:44 < Laurence_b> wtf climate change has been stopped 4 sure now
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2023-02-24T11:36:28 < qyx> karlp: ripping of u.fl with part of the trace helps a lot
2023-02-24T11:38:40 < zyp> I've been wondering what to do about radio mcus in the test rack
2023-02-24T11:39:01 < zyp> it's a bit tempting to just put a resistor as a dummy load on the antenna pin
2023-02-24T11:40:34 < zyp> but there could be some value in being able to test the radio, even if I'm not designing it to be an RF friendly environment
2023-02-24T11:41:04 < zyp> I mean, sticking a radio inside an EMC shielded enclosure is probably not very useful :)
2023-02-24T11:41:51 < zyp> but yeah
2023-02-24T11:42:23 < zyp> realisticly I'm just gonna grab complete modules with antennas
2023-02-24T11:42:35 < zyp> makes it easier to hand assemble too
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2023-02-24T12:01:25 < karlp> I saw some "securiteh" people talking about "fixing" things to be local only, instead of calling home all the time, by soldering a 50ohm resistor to ground instad of the antenna
2023-02-24T12:02:02 < karlp> thought, hrm, that's actuallyimpedance matched, I bet it just kills range heavily
2023-02-24T12:02:18 < karlp> and yeah, later saw same people complaining that it didn't work 
2023-02-24T12:02:36 < karlp> now, why is my btle periodic advertising "timing out"
2023-02-24T12:02:57 < karlp> I bet I have some of the interval numbers misconfigured for both ends to see each other proprerly
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2023-02-24T12:11:08 < jpa-> impedance matched 50 ohm resistor to ground is actually the best bet you have at dissipating the transmissions, but yeah, modern radios are good enough at RX that something will get through
2023-02-24T12:11:37 < jpa-> 0 ohm or inf ohms would be just bad antennas
2023-02-24T12:12:14 < zyp> indeed
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2023-02-24T14:54:42 < jpa-> heh, RP2040 PIO has these bits to "bypass input metastability synchronizers" - turns out it indeed goes metastable if you do that with signals that don't meet timing
2023-02-24T14:56:33 < zyp> :)
2023-02-24T14:57:18 < jpa-> now, if they only specified the acceptable timing :D
2023-02-24T14:58:21 < jpa-> i guess i'm not going to meet it anyway, the "WAIT GPIO" instruction randomly jumps to addresses that are not the current or next instruction
2023-02-24T15:02:23 < jpa-> probably has a mux between PC and (PC+1) in hardware, driven by the GPIO - would be cool if it was glitch-free, but i guess it is not possible to make a multi-bit glitch-free mux in hardware
2023-02-24T15:03:19 < jpa-> opposite-edge input syncs could have cut the synchronizer delay from 2 cycles to 1
2023-02-24T15:16:08 < jpa-> good thing about PIO code is that you never need to write much of it - i now have 7 instruction slots remaining and plenty of features to implement :)
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2023-02-24T17:18:36 < PaulFertser> Now that's how the pro's roll it: "So I attached gdb to the Firefox content process hosting this tab, took a core dump, and grepped it for the lost text. I wasn't about to write all that again from scratch."
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2023-02-25T04:38:54 < bitmask> aws stuff is interesting...
2023-02-25T04:42:38 < bitmask> using amplify / S3 to create a backend for my soon to be react frontend. authorization stuff is pretty neat, using graphQL to make a photo album for my projects 
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2023-02-25T12:44:07 < jbo> what I am reading: "Oh yes, please take all my (future) money and data. It is so nice that I am 100% dependent on some large corporation"
2023-02-25T12:47:38 < Steffanx-> And jbo has NIH syndrome much?
2023-02-25T12:48:51 < jbo> well, I wouldn't say that. It's really more about corporate business decisions rather than "inventions"
2023-02-25T13:05:35 < qyx> google?
2023-02-25T13:05:46 < qyx> faceberg?
2023-02-25T13:05:51 < qyx> all the same
2023-02-25T13:05:53 < Steffanx-> Amazon 
2023-02-25T13:10:47 < Steffanx-> But then i read a few days ago even your favourite ttn went a bit corporate qyx .. or was this guy wrong?
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2023-02-25T15:50:17 < BrainDamage> being dependent on their api is the real issue imo
2023-02-25T15:50:34 < BrainDamage> if they change prices, you're bound to their services
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2023-02-25T17:02:36 < qyx> Steffanx-: fuk ttn tbh because of this
2023-02-25T17:03:02 < qyx> I wanted to use it and provide a coverage, but not anymore
2023-02-25T17:06:10 < qyx> "to speed up development and commercialization of LoRaWAN solutions"
2023-02-25T17:06:13 < qyx> what is this for
2023-02-25T17:07:29 < Steffanx-> Didnt they always had some commercial edition? There's still a free version right?
2023-02-25T17:08:15 < Steffanx-> have
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2023-02-25T22:11:06 < qyx> so this lorawan RN2483 module hangs semi-randomly
2023-02-25T22:11:32 < qyx> who would have thought that, there's a PIC inside
2023-02-25T22:19:27 < kaki> Steffanx-: movie
2023-02-25T22:19:33 < Steffanx-> 2 dollar.
2023-02-25T22:20:29 < Steffanx-> kaki:  Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio
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2023-02-25T22:25:10 < Steffanx-> Wasnt to impressed by Black Panther: Wakanda Forever
2023-02-25T22:38:17 < bitmask> how was pino
2023-02-25T22:44:00 < Steffanx-> I didnt hate it :P
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2023-02-25T22:45:25 < bitmask> thats a glowing review from steffan
2023-02-25T22:48:12 < Steffanx-> ikr
2023-02-25T22:48:16 < Steffanx-> Now you must watch it
2023-02-25T22:48:19 < Steffanx-> its on netflix i recall
2023-02-25T22:48:22 < bitmask> i think I will
2023-02-25T22:48:42 < bitmask> I'm just working on my website so i'll put it on in the background
2023-02-25T22:48:52 < Steffanx-> ( its an netflix movie so... :P )
2023-02-25T22:49:02 < bitmask> yea i know, i have nf
2023-02-25T22:49:17 < bitmask> or were you qualifying the quality of the movie
2023-02-25T22:49:27 < Steffanx-> Website work. What has gotten into you?
2023-02-25T22:49:36 < bitmask> im trying to find a job...
2023-02-25T22:49:47 < bitmask> figured i should at least have a website that shows some of my projects
2023-02-25T22:50:09 < Steffanx-> No, i was not. It was a reply to myself.. thinking was on netflix and it must be since its a netflix movie
2023-02-25T22:50:14 < Steffanx-> *it was
2023-02-25T22:50:24 < bitmask> ahh
2023-02-25T22:51:07 < Steffanx-> Im still surprised someone sometimes devoted as you cannot find himself a job. or does it really work like that in the land of the endless possibilities?
2023-02-25T22:51:43 < bitmask> i really dont know.... maybe I'm just in a shitty area for it
2023-02-25T22:53:41 < qyx> CBOR pros, how do you save datetime?
2023-02-25T22:55:09 < zyp> I don't know CBOR but if there's no specific datetime type, I'd just use a typical integer timestamp
2023-02-25T22:57:18 < qyx> there is, iso8601 as a string
2023-02-25T22:57:24 < qyx> doesn't sound "concise"
2023-02-25T22:58:36 < qyx> a bit of a context here, I am sending data over LoRaWAN, for which I don't actually need a timestamp
2023-02-25T22:58:51 < qyx> but the requirement is to send the data as a confirmed packet, sometimes, to check if the link is okay
2023-02-25T22:58:52 < zyp> sounds annoying to work with on embedded
2023-02-25T22:59:34 < qyx> and to buffer and retransmit everything from the buffer when the link goes back up
2023-02-25T23:00:00 < qyx> and for this I need to timestamp the data, because the retransmitted packets would be saved with incorrect (current) timestamps
2023-02-25T23:00:40 < qyx> so my current plan is to get rid of the static packet formatting and use CBOR
2023-02-25T23:01:10 < qyx> prepare a buffer, push new values into the buffer as they come, push a timestamp at least once in every buffer
2023-02-25T23:01:29 < qyx> and when the buffer size is big enough OR a specified time has passed, send the buffer
2023-02-25T23:01:59 < qyx> which somewhat complicates handling of packets on the receiver
2023-02-25T23:02:18 < Steffanx-> There also seems to be an epoch based integer/float based format.
2023-02-25T23:02:26 < Steffanx-> https://www.iana.org/assignments/cbor-tags/cbor-tags.xhtml tag 1
2023-02-25T23:02:37 < qyx> but otherwise makes it more data agnostic, I don't need to version protocol formats, etc.
2023-02-25T23:02:50 < Steffanx-> and 100 for just the days.
2023-02-25T23:04:19 < Steffanx-> -based somewhere up there
2023-02-25T23:11:03 < qyx> I am mildly disappointed
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2023-02-25T23:14:53 < qyx> The TTN Fair Access Policy limits the data each end-device can send, by allowing: An average of 30 seconds uplink time on air, per day, per device. At most 10 downlink messages per day, including the ACKs for confirmed uplinks
2023-02-25T23:14:57 < qyx> haha what about no.
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--- Day changed su helmi 26 2023
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2023-02-26T00:09:11 < karlp> wasn't this all apparent from the beginning?
2023-02-26T00:09:35 < karlp> even lolrence was like, "how can lora work with enough people? there's no fucking bandwidth if people actually want to use it"
2023-02-26T00:09:51 < qyx> no, that's ttn's invention
2023-02-26T00:10:05 < qyx> there is no fair usage policy as long as en 300 220 goes
2023-02-26T00:10:17 < qyx> only a mention of free channel assessment
2023-02-26T00:11:05 < qyx> you are free to choose duty cycle vs. freq vs. power levels according to that EN and national regulations
2023-02-26T00:11:30 < qyx> fuk lorawa with 1% duty cycle, with 0 dBm on 433 MHz you are allowed 100% without LBT
2023-02-26T00:12:00 < qyx> and 0 dBm with LoRa modulation within the limits of the regulation can do wonders within 1 km
2023-02-26T00:13:32 < qyx> but I have the impression that all those ttn people are like "we were the first, we make the rules"
2023-02-26T00:14:08 < qyx> and like "why do you even ask that question? don't do that, we don't do it that way, this is the proper(tm) way, gtfo"
2023-02-26T00:14:34 < qyx> the more I read their forums the less I want to use anything related to ttn
2023-02-26T00:16:47 < qyx> the problem with radio in commercial usage is that I cannot really do what I want :S
2023-02-26T00:17:01 < qyx> and that makes me a sad panda
2023-02-26T00:18:11 < BrainDamage> diy meteor scatter on the 40 MHz band
2023-02-26T00:19:03 < bitmask> anyone familiar with graphQL?
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2023-02-26T00:31:49 < qyx> hm I can't have multiple values in a map with the same key
2023-02-26T00:38:06 < rustyaxe> BrainDamage: why 40mhz? i cant play there
2023-02-26T00:38:36 < rustyaxe> I only have DC-30mhz then 50mhz-2.2ghz :(
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2023-02-26T00:39:25 < BrainDamage> because it's an ISM band
2023-02-26T00:40:27 < BrainDamage> and the band that hams use for meteor scatter is pretty close, so it should have similar propagation characteristics
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2023-02-26T00:45:56 < qyx> protobuf vs cbor doesn't really make any difference
2023-02-26T00:48:46 < qyx> protobuf has better varint encoding format though it seems
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2023-02-26T00:51:27 < veverak> speaking of protobuf
2023-02-26T00:51:33 < veverak> afaik the thing does not have sequencing
2023-02-26T00:51:40 < veverak> how you folks do that?
2023-02-26T00:51:50 < qyx> repeated?
2023-02-26T00:51:54 < veverak> yeah
2023-02-26T00:52:02 < qyx> it has repeated
2023-02-26T00:52:10 < veverak> yeahwith proper sequencing?
2023-02-26T00:52:16 < veverak> like start sequence, message size, checksum
2023-02-26T00:52:21 < zyp> what do you mean proper sequencing?
2023-02-26T00:52:29 < qyx> what checksums
2023-02-26T00:52:34 < qyx> there are no checksums in protobuf
2023-02-26T00:52:39 < qyx> that's not its purpose
2023-02-26T00:53:02 < veverak> I mean, the stuff that I usually use for a message is: | static_prefix | msg_size | <..data..> | checksum |
2023-02-26T00:53:08 < veverak> (as the outter-most layer)
2023-02-26T00:53:12 < qyx> oh you mean you can't use protobufs over a stream transport like TCP?
2023-02-26T00:53:21 < veverak> I was thinking UART :)
2023-02-26T00:53:21 < zyp> ah, I'd call that framing
2023-02-26T00:53:25 < veverak> aaaah, framing!
2023-02-26T00:53:28 < qyx> thats framing
2023-02-26T00:53:45 < zyp> protobuf does indeed not include framing, that's delegated to the layer below
2023-02-26T00:53:55 < qyx> no it doesn't, protobuf encodes messages into datagrams
2023-02-26T00:54:10 < zyp> I've used COBS to frame protobuf
2023-02-26T00:54:11 < veverak> yeah, so there is no stnadardized framing, as I suspected
2023-02-26T00:54:24 < veverak> what is COBS?
2023-02-26T00:54:32 < zyp> COBS is a framing layer
2023-02-26T00:55:16 < veverak> got it
2023-02-26T00:56:55 < zyp> here's an excerpt from some code using my protobuf based RPC thing: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/GM8TD
2023-02-26T00:57:38 < qyx> also please explain me who invented streaming protobufs over websockets
2023-02-26T00:57:41 < qyx> because
2023-02-26T00:57:48 < veverak> zyp: that part is boring :))
2023-02-26T00:58:01 < veverak> I do have custom C++ lib for serialization of C++ types into binary messages
2023-02-26T00:58:03 < qyx> 1. you have to frame messages into a stream to send it over websocket
2023-02-26T00:58:15 < zyp> veverak, it's the bottommost part that's nice
2023-02-26T00:58:17 < qyx> 2. you have to split a websocket stream into http requests to send it to the server
2023-02-26T00:58:31 < zyp> shit's modular and pluggable
2023-02-26T00:58:45 < zyp> qyx, what? no, that's not how websockets work
2023-02-26T00:58:46 < qyx> 3. you have to do framing in order to send http over tcp
2023-02-26T00:59:05 < veverak> (I can serialize a lot of stuff) but that is C++ dark magic and has like 0 compatibility with other languages, so I was looking for a way to make the device interfaceable with anything... voer UART
2023-02-26T00:59:11 < qyx> 4. then you have to split tcp stream into IP packets
2023-02-26T00:59:19 < veverak> protobuf seems nice, except that framing would be still "my own"
2023-02-26T00:59:20 < zyp> a websocket is a single persistent TCP connection
2023-02-26T00:59:31 < qyx> 5. and serialize those packets into physical layer bitstream
2023-02-26T00:59:51 < zyp> veverak, I think it's good to have a split between framing and serialization
2023-02-26T00:59:55 < qyx> zyp: isn't there a fallback when it is not possible which uses a periodic query/response?
2023-02-26T01:00:08 < zyp> not that I know of
2023-02-26T01:00:09 < veverak> zyp: in the end yeah, but i was hoping there is "common way" 
2023-02-26T01:00:17 < qyx> hm, I thought there is
2023-02-26T01:00:28 < qyx> then sorry, 2 layers less
2023-02-26T01:00:35 < veverak> whatever, folks will get spec as to how it is framed and should live with it
2023-02-26T01:02:00 < zyp> veverak, in my case, my RPC thing is designed to work over any framed transport, which in many cases are going to be USB which is already framed
2023-02-26T01:02:17 < veverak> zyp: well, my thing can too, that was not the issue
2023-02-26T01:02:18 < zyp> and it's a bit pointless to run a framing layer on top of a framed transport
2023-02-26T01:02:42 < qyx> zyp: there really is a http long-polling transport
2023-02-26T01:02:55 < zyp> it's better to have the framing layer as a separate thing that you add in when you need to run on a bytestream transport
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2023-02-26T01:03:30 < zyp> qyx, as part of websockets itself, or some socket lib based on websockets?
2023-02-26T01:03:51 < zyp> I've seen multiple higher layer libs that offer fallbacks, but I didn't think that was part of the websockets standard
2023-02-26T01:04:03 < qyx> hm yeah good point
2023-02-26T01:05:36 < qyx> k time to sleep and determine if I am ok with 50+ byte lorawan frames
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2023-02-26T14:12:46 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.nl/pic/media%2FFpuk03BXwAEcsV5.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall
2023-02-26T14:32:11 < Steffanx-> Hi king of context.
2023-02-26T14:36:24 < specing> Laurence_b: lol, I thought the police girl was actually alameda one photoshopped in
2023-02-26T14:45:00 < Laurence_b> steffanx-: political crazy grrl compass
2023-02-26T15:39:00 < rustyaxe> is this a showcase of the ugliest women of 2023?
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2023-02-26T15:43:50 < Steffanx-> You're assuming gender now rustyaxe 
2023-02-26T15:44:22 < rustyaxe> true the right side im not 100% sure on
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2023-02-26T16:31:37 < qyx> invoking freertos message buffers, nah
2023-02-26T16:44:54 < Steffanx-> Uh what qyx?
2023-02-26T16:45:58 < qyx> something new from the post-acquisition times
2023-02-26T16:48:19 < Steffanx-> But what's your objection 
2023-02-26T16:49:07 < qyx> exactly the big red text in the API docs
2023-02-26T16:49:13 < qyx> saying it is not thread safe
2023-02-26T16:57:09 < Steffanx-> Yes that might be a reason it might not be suitable for your problem :P
2023-02-26T16:58:39 < qyx> that's not being helpful
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2023-02-26T16:59:49 < kaki> forgot how to build in vs code
2023-02-26T16:59:56 < qyx> good for you
2023-02-26T17:00:07 < kaki> maybe
2023-02-26T17:00:09 < Steffanx-> lol having a wonderful nice sunday sir qyx ?
2023-02-26T17:00:50 < kaki> like forgot in level that I don't even have a clue
2023-02-26T17:01:12 < Steffanx-> Luckily google didnt forget
2023-02-26T17:01:15 < Steffanx-> or duckduckgo
2023-02-26T17:01:17 < Steffanx-> or bing
2023-02-26T17:01:31 < kaki> ah I was just blind
2023-02-26T17:01:44 < Steffanx-> yw
2023-02-26T17:01:46  * rustyaxe cries in vivado lab
2023-02-26T17:01:47 < qyx> just a mere blindness
2023-02-26T17:02:03 < kaki> it was actually there where I looked first
2023-02-26T17:02:30 < Steffanx-> your eyes must be even worse than mine
2023-02-26T17:02:44 < Steffanx-> did you visit an optician lately kaki ?
2023-02-26T17:03:02 < kaki> I have visited nothing latelly
2023-02-26T17:03:11 < Steffanx-> not even subway or mcdonalds?
2023-02-26T17:03:28 < kaki> ah
2023-02-26T17:03:30 < kaki> maccas yes
2023-02-26T17:03:30 < qyx> >>> cbor2.loads(base64.b64decode('v2JhehoAgk9WYmF5OgAEDyZiYXgZoiv/'))
2023-02-26T17:03:31 < qyx> {'az': 8539990, 'ay': -266023, 'ax': 41515}
2023-02-26T17:03:33 < qyx> oh yay
2023-02-26T17:03:34 < qyx> it wroks
2023-02-26T17:04:23 < qyx> now why the hell the byte string is so long
2023-02-26T17:07:31 < Steffanx-> its not that long
2023-02-26T17:07:40 < Steffanx-> and it includes the labes, so make the labels shorter :P
2023-02-26T17:09:31 < qyx> actually if I make the key/label 1, 2, 3 instead of "ax", "ay", "az", I may save 6 more bytes
2023-02-26T17:09:43 < qyx> "ax" is encoded in 3 bytes, 1 is encoded as a single byte
2023-02-26T17:09:54 < qyx> idk if it is a valid cbor/json
2023-02-26T17:09:59 < qyx> cbor.me is ok with it though
2023-02-26T17:10:32 < qyx> but nope, I want the labels
2023-02-26T17:11:54 < Steffanx-> So safe 3 bytes and make it x y z
2023-02-26T17:12:31 < Steffanx-> Can't you declare a custom ax ay az type/tag?
2023-02-26T17:12:55 < BrainDamage> it's the orange site, so take it with a grain of salt, but faprenceb is about to get censored right from the os https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34923537
2023-02-26T17:13:39 < qyx> Steffanx- looks like a CBOR pro, I am new to it
2023-02-26T17:13:40 < qyx> can I?
2023-02-26T17:14:12 < qyx> and no, I want acceleration x, y, z, angles x, y, z, gyro out x, y, z
2023-02-26T17:14:21 < qyx> so I need to differentiate them a bit
2023-02-26T17:15:53 < BrainDamage> do you plan to ever have different transmissions encoded?
2023-02-26T17:16:14 < BrainDamage> like one lacks gyro, or the magnetometer
2023-02-26T17:16:30 < BrainDamage> if not, as long as the fields are fixed, you should be ok
2023-02-26T17:17:27 < Steffanx-> It just as new to me qyx
2023-02-26T17:17:44 < Steffanx-> In just asking the obvious questions
2023-02-26T17:28:22 < rustyaxe>     ** Copyright 1986-2022 Xilinx, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
2023-02-26T17:28:33 < rustyaxe> Oh god. we have almost 40 yrs of bloat. No wonder its 89gb download
2023-02-26T17:42:35 < qyx> BrainDamage: yes the device can be reconfigured for different applications, outputting different sets of data
2023-02-26T17:45:02 < BrainDamage> then if you use non-self-descriptive indexes, you can use simple sequence numbers, but make sure you always create a new field for things, or it'll be a pain
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2023-02-26T17:51:00 < Steffanx-> reinventing protobuf?
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2023-02-26T18:36:55 < qyx> yeah nope
2023-02-26T18:37:18 < qyx> actually protobuf is a bit better at handling varints
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2023-02-26T19:59:24 < jpa-> has anyone tried jlcpcb MJF printing service?
2023-02-26T19:59:43 < jpa-> prices seem much lower than other HP MJF providers i have used, i wonder if quality is as good
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2023-02-26T21:55:16 < zyp> I haven't but I'm planning to throw in some 3d prints with my next jlc order
2023-02-26T21:55:32 < zyp> IIRC MJF looked more expensive than SLS
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2023-02-26T22:06:57 < englishman> what’s MJF? looks like binderjet for plastic?
2023-02-26T22:08:01 < englishman> plastic SLS has become very cheap, formlabs has one for <$20k
2023-02-26T22:26:36 < karlp> mjf actually has some heat resistance though, 
2023-02-26T22:26:50 < karlp> at least hte places I've been using will talk about mjf being "you can actually use this for more than prototypes"
2023-02-26T22:27:31 < karlp> it's weird, though, the mjf stuff we got to try out was both stronger and softer.
2023-02-26T22:27:35 < englishman> good point
2023-02-26T22:27:48 < karlp> it made for nicer stiffer side walls, but was too floppy for latch shit
2023-02-26T22:28:03 < karlp> sls has been super variable for us too, 
2023-02-26T22:28:14 < karlp> sometimes it's nice, sometimes it' sbeen super brittle.
2023-02-26T22:28:15 < englishman> could change as materials improve
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2023-02-26T22:28:32 < englishman> there are several different ones for sls at least
2023-02-26T22:28:36 < karlp> yeah, our shit we're doing is puishing the limits too, we're at minimums for feature size and wall sizes too, so no surprise
2023-02-26T22:29:22 < karlp> we've currently settled on "strong resin" from wenext as giving us the best for our needs at the most viable price, but, shit's weird
2023-02-26T22:29:27 < karlp> fdm remains absolute garbage
2023-02-26T22:30:03 < karlp> the sls prints I've got have yellowed pretty noticeable even in just a few months of office lighting too
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2023-02-26T22:32:34 < karlp> qyx: websockets fallbacks isn't websockets, it's "we used soemthing like socket.io that throws mountains of the crap you're talking abotu to handle browsers that don't do websockets"
2023-02-26T22:32:42 < karlp> and is therefore, largely irrelevant today..
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2023-02-26T22:34:43 < karlp> BrainDamage: yeah, OSB has looked like batshit crazy shit from the beginning, and a few commentations keep pointing it out, and brit parliament is "lol, as if we give a shit, we just want our police state"
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--- Day changed ma helmi 27 2023
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2023-02-27T00:35:59  * rustyaxe wonders which organs he can live without to pay for new computer to replace this abacus :O Bonus is free trip to mexico!
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2023-02-27T00:40:55 < qyx> what the hell
2023-02-27T00:41:25 < rustyaxe> qyx: My computer is too slow for my radio
2023-02-27T00:41:56 < qyx> newlib's localtime_r returns 2001-01-01T00:14:04Z for a 978307978 timestamp
2023-02-27T00:42:21 < rustyaxe> time ended?
2023-02-27T00:42:56 < rustyaxe>  date -d @978307978
2023-02-27T00:42:56 < rustyaxe> Sun Dec 31 07:12:58 PM EST 2000
2023-02-27T00:43:24 < qyx> it should be 2001-01-01T01:12:58Z
2023-02-27T00:44:03 < rustyaxe> that matches up
2023-02-27T00:44:06 < rustyaxe> EST is -5
2023-02-27T00:44:23 < rustyaxe>  TZ=UTC date -d @978307978
2023-02-27T00:44:23 < rustyaxe> Mon Jan  1 12:12:58 AM UTC 2001
2023-02-27T00:44:42 < qyx> ok it is off by one hour
2023-02-27T00:44:53 < qyx> but why, I want everything to be UTC
2023-02-27T00:45:19 < qyx> ok I am mildly dumb
2023-02-27T00:47:19 < qyx> everything is okay now
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2023-02-27T01:25:14 < qyx> my iwdg started resetting the board randomly and I am pretty sure it is reset periodically
2023-02-27T01:25:48 < qyx> maybe not that periodically, but 20 second timeout is a long time
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2023-02-27T08:29:09 < jpa-> for me MJF from 3dstep has been the best properties ever - heat resistant, flame resistant, strong, accurate; will be interesting to see if jlcpcb gets the same considering it's the same HP printer, or whether they've set it to draft mode & reused the powder 1000x times :)
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2023-02-27T11:44:29 < karlp> 3dstep website makes them  sound far to expensive
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2023-02-27T13:58:01 < jpa-> karlp: for a small 40x15x15mm thingy i'm working on now, 3dstep charges 3.10 EUR each and jlcpcb 1.40 EUR each (5 pcs batch for both, same HP PA12 MJF)
2023-02-27T13:58:38 < jpa-> 2x difference sure, but 3dstep is still firmly in the "affordable" category for me, and the quality has been excellent
2023-02-27T14:00:28 < karlp> that's far more affordable than I would have guessed from their website.
2023-02-27T14:00:49 < karlp> the complete lack of "just send us your files, it's gonna be cheap" did not make me even want to consider it.
2023-02-27T14:01:24 < karlp> are you sure you're not getting a finnish discount?
2023-02-27T14:01:29 < jpa-> they use this web service  https://3dstep.3yourmind.com/en/accounts/signup/
2023-02-27T14:02:02 < jpa-> shipping to volcanoland is probably going to cost a bunch also, yeah :)
2023-02-27T14:02:38 < karlp> how on earth is anyone emant to find that 3yourmind section :) 
2023-02-27T14:02:51 < karlp> shipping is shipping, hat's "normal" and pretyt much the same no matter who I use.
2023-02-27T14:02:53 < jpa-> no idea, looks like their website is garbage now
2023-02-27T14:03:11 < jpa-> i think it was much clearer when i signed up :D
2023-02-27T14:03:19 < jpa-> they even had example prices back then i think
2023-02-27T14:03:48 < karlp> lol, 3yourmind I thought was going to be something like 3dcraftcloud but no, they're website also just wants to sell me solutions
2023-02-27T14:04:19 < karlp> so I guess 3yourmind is servicing 3dstep, not the same model as 3dcraftcloud
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2023-02-27T14:05:55 < jpa-> https://web.archive.org/web/20210126000613/https://www.3dstep.fi/en/    looks like i remembered correct, this old version of the website seems much better
2023-02-27T14:06:00 < karlp> "Our team has received your information and is now in the process of creating your account. You will receive an email notification within the next 48 hours as soon as your account is ready to use"
2023-02-27T14:06:05 < karlp> wat century is this?!
2023-02-27T14:06:21 < jpa-> i guess they hired some marketing firm that rebranded "send us our files" to "imagine 3d future!!"
2023-02-27T14:07:33 < karlp> so, in other news, bluez has these  "defines", for  btle scan options, https://github.com/bluez/bluez/blob/master/src/main.c#L117-L118
2023-02-27T14:07:43 < karlp> and I can't find anyway that they're ever used, or able to be set.
2023-02-27T14:08:04 < karlp> bluez is such a weird project
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2023-02-27T14:12:24 < jpa-> heh, shapeways PA12 MJF for the same model is 6.90 EUR
2023-02-27T14:14:22 < karlp> do you have a craftcloud3d account?
2023-02-27T14:14:30 < karlp> shapeways has always been more expensive for me.
2023-02-27T14:15:07 < jpa-> no, i haven't tried that
2023-02-27T14:17:38 < jpa-> pretty cheap actually, 1.30 EUR each at 5 pcs batch - but 31 EUR shipping from Lithuania to Finland :D
2023-02-27T14:18:16 < karlp> hangon, is that shapeways, 6.90 per peice once you include shipping?
2023-02-27T14:18:16 < jpa-> jlcpcb is the cheapest for "dyed black" though
2023-02-27T14:18:29 < karlp> craftcloud is a bit odd, as it's multie vendor behind the scenes.
2023-02-27T14:18:39 < jpa-> no, just production
2023-02-27T14:18:49 < jpa-> shapeways shipping is expensive also
2023-02-27T14:19:04 < karlp> is the 1.30 per piece + 31euro from lithuania what you found on craftcloud?
2023-02-27T14:19:08 < jpa-> yeah
2023-02-27T14:19:41 < jpa-> "by Smart Factory"
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2023-02-27T14:22:59 < karlp> we got some from "MB Trimatis sprendimas" in lithuania as well and it was garbge.
2023-02-27T14:23:02 < karlp> it looooked really nice,
2023-02-27T14:23:40 < karlp> but there were resin (tyhis was a resin job) blotches that had obviously not cured the right way, and some bits were snapped off in the box we got it in, and it was all suuuuper brittle compared to some resin form other places
2023-02-27T14:23:49 < karlp> 3d mech eng man, who woulda thunk it was big and complicated :)
2023-02-27T14:24:40 < jpa-> i have been quite disappointed with resin also, looks nice but doesn't feel very usable in practice
2023-02-27T14:24:59 < karlp> yeah, we're trying to proto for what would be injection moulded eventualyl though
2023-02-27T14:25:11 < karlp> and nothing fdm comes close to the resolution/scale we want, 
2023-02-27T14:25:11 < jpa-> especially as i find it quite important to have non-flammable enclosures for protos also
2023-02-27T14:25:30 < karlp> eyah, I've basically given up on finding ul94v0 3d printable...
2023-02-27T14:25:41 < karlp> I found some swedish guys offering it in fdm, and claiming some decent specs
2023-02-27T14:25:51 < karlp> had an email conversation with them, seemed very promising and competent.
2023-02-27T14:26:07 < karlp> and then same thing, shipped veyr late, got parts with dribbled fdm gloop all over them and half broken
2023-02-27T14:26:09 < karlp> like, wat...
2023-02-27T14:26:15 < karlp> who put that in a box to ship and thought it was ok?!
2023-02-27T14:27:01 < karlp> I mean, call/email me and say "yo, we can't do this stupid thing you made" or "hey, maybe do this instead" but "lol, enjoy your printer dribble loser" is pretty uncool
2023-02-27T14:28:32 < jpa-> PA12 is usually rated UL94 V-1, which is pretty good; i did test it myself ghetto style and i'd say it would meet V-0 for most models
2023-02-27T14:30:06 < jpa-> 3dstep also has SLS for PA2210FR, which has UL94 V-0 rating, i tried it but i don't like the grainy surface feel of SLS plastics
2023-02-27T14:30:35 < jpa-> and even it is V-0 only for 2mm or thicker
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2023-02-27T14:32:26 < karlp> yeah, I saw some notes on that thickness dependency, materials science is hard too :)
2023-02-27T14:34:44 < jpa-> so far even 3d modelling is hard enough for me
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2023-02-27T14:46:31 < zyp> jpa-, surface feel depends how it's post processed
2023-02-27T14:47:34 < zyp> the place that did the orbtrace cases offers polishing or shot peening, orbtrace cases are shot peened
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2023-02-27T15:03:49 < karlp> zyp: yah, but post processing processes can often double the cost or more for cheapskates like me.
2023-02-27T15:05:05 < zyp> IIRC they charge +5% for shot peening
2023-02-27T15:05:55 < karlp> so... can anyone order from them, or was it a uk friends special from mubes?
2023-02-27T15:06:08 < karlp> I've seen them mentioned a few times, no-ones ever volunteeered the name that I remember :)
2023-02-27T15:10:08 < jpa-> zyp: yeah, i noticed it has a bit different texture than my mjf prints
2023-02-27T15:10:17 < jpa-> less visible layering also
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2023-02-27T15:19:53 < zyp> https://www.3dprint-uk.co.uk/
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2023-02-27T15:20:55 < karlp> btle advertising intervals: units of 0.625ms. connection intervals: units of 1.25ms 
2023-02-27T15:21:03 < karlp> who came up with this, what's wrong with just 1ms...
2023-02-27T15:21:41 < karlp> hah, another place that only wants .stl uploads :)
2023-02-27T15:22:13 < karlp> 3dnext in china does that too, and I converted some steps for them, they emailed back: "um, do you happen to have steps? stl doesn't work on your stuff"
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2023-02-27T15:31:08 < jpa-> 3dprint-uk is pretty cheap also, 2.23 EUR each at 5 pcs, and the finishings are indeed very reasonably priced
2023-02-27T15:34:48 < karlp> finishings are very chap yes.  and the orbtrace I got looks nice,
2023-02-27T15:35:21 < karlp> for an order I got form china, it's ~69 pounds before shipping vs ~27euro though, so not... entirely as cheap, but finishings are very much cheaper add on.
2023-02-27T15:35:39 < karlp> no comments on your original statement on draftmode and resuing powder though ;)
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2023-02-27T15:57:48 < karlp> hrm, ok, so looks like bluez just _never_ sets these parameters, relies on spec defaults.
2023-02-27T15:59:15 < Steffanx-> Just use Nordic's  proprietary low latency mode and use a connection interval of 1ms karlp 
2023-02-27T16:00:39 < karlp> oh no, that's _connection_ interval :) that's different again :)
2023-02-27T16:01:00 < karlp> I'm just seeing that my periodic sync is periodically losing sync and restarting, I think I have a window falling out somewhere, just tracking it down :)
2023-02-27T16:01:40 < karlp> the spec's also fun, "The LE_Scan_Window parameter shall always be set to a value smaller
2023-02-27T16:01:41 < karlp> or equal to the value set for the LE_Scan_Interval parameter
2023-02-27T16:01:43 < karlp> "
2023-02-27T16:01:48 < karlp> yet, the defaults in the spec are to be equal.
2023-02-27T16:01:59 < karlp> well, smaller or equal counts I guess.
2023-02-27T16:02:01 < karlp> but still.
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2023-02-27T16:02:20 < karlp> the defaults nominally don't allow you to do anything other than scan.
2023-02-27T16:02:48 < karlp> yet at the same time, these parameters are simply "recommendations" from the host :)
2023-02-27T16:02:58 < karlp> so yolo, suck it and see what you really get.
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2023-02-27T16:11:56 < kaki> what are placeholders in c++?
2023-02-27T16:12:28 < kaki> if you needed to explain it to 11year old
2023-02-27T16:13:20 < zyp> as in std::placeholders?
2023-02-27T16:14:30 < zyp> to understand placeholders, you need to first understand std::bind
2023-02-27T16:16:10 < zyp> so, let's say you've got a function void foo(int, int int);
2023-02-27T16:16:52 < zyp> auto bar = std::bind(foo, 1, 2, 3); is effectively like doing void bar() { foo(1, 2, 3); }
2023-02-27T16:17:19  * kaki *nods*
2023-02-27T16:18:23 < zyp> and placeholders lets you do shit like: auto baz = std::bind(foo, _2, 123, _1); which is equivalent to void baz(int a, int b) { foo(b, 123, a); }
2023-02-27T16:19:02 < kaki> why would I want to use bind?
2023-02-27T16:19:27 < zyp> i.e. if you bind something with placeholders, then the wrapper you get takes arguments that gets stuffed into the placeholders when invoked
2023-02-27T16:19:49 < kaki> yes
2023-02-27T16:19:50 < zyp> typically to get a different function signature
2023-02-27T16:20:08 < kaki> why?
2023-02-27T16:20:25 < kaki> ah
2023-02-27T16:20:46 < zyp> e.g. callbacks
2023-02-27T16:20:46 < kaki> got it
2023-02-27T16:21:54 < kaki> "A function signature includes the function name, its arguments, and in some languages, the return type."
2023-02-27T16:22:21 < zyp> I think realisticly I'd rather use a lambda expression rather than placeholders
2023-02-27T16:23:06 < zyp> I mean, another way to write baz is auto baz = [](int a, int b) { foo(b, 123, a); }
2023-02-27T16:32:22 < kaki> much better
2023-02-27T16:32:39 < kaki> and it does the exact thing right?
2023-02-27T16:41:36 < kaki> when compiled the implementation is exactly same?
2023-02-27T16:41:52 < kaki> bbl>
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2023-02-27T17:01:03 < karlp> soundsd like a godbolt question
2023-02-27T17:15:43 < zyp> lambda looks more efficient: https://godbolt.org/z/968qz3zsx
2023-02-27T17:16:24 < zyp> but I think that's because 123 is a literal, and the lambda can treat that as a constant, while bind doesn't fold it
2023-02-27T17:18:00 < zyp> well, even with a lambda capture it still looks more efficient: https://godbolt.org/z/sjardEfbe
2023-02-27T17:20:56 < karlp> I love the typinfo splatter at the end :)
2023-02-27T17:21:29 < zyp> I haven't used any of this stuff since it got added to STL
2023-02-27T17:21:52 < zyp> I used boost::bind and friends for a uni project in 2010 or so
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2023-02-27T22:35:02 < Laurence_b> hol up https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2023.02.12.528210v1
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2023-02-27T23:07:08 < Laurence_b> Behaviour Points To keep track of student behaviours more effectively, each consequence will have an attributable behaviour point. ‍ This means that if a student moves through all consequences within a lesson, they would aggregate a total of 6 points.
2023-02-27T23:07:18 < Laurence_b> keeekkk uk skhools made 4chan memes real
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2023-02-27T23:59:13 < BrainDamage> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuhWTwN0GvE
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--- Day changed ti helmi 28 2023
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2023-02-28T00:40:51 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.nl/pic/card_img%2F1629941841536720897%2FrbZQAvjH%3Fformat%3Djpg%26name%3D800x320_1
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2023-02-28T16:38:40 < zyp> karlp, if I wanted to script some shit in python to talk to an arbitrary BLE device, what's the easiest way to achieve that?
2023-02-28T16:39:01 < karlp> IMO, bleak. but
2023-02-28T16:39:37 < karlp> bleak I think is the most rational and sane going forward, rather than "lol, we wrote just enough HCI layer ourselves to make our demos work"
2023-02-28T16:39:48 < karlp> but you are then somewhat at the mercy of what your OS is giving you.
2023-02-28T16:40:11 < zyp> ah, that looks decent
2023-02-28T16:40:27 < zyp> apparently there's macos support, but I'm not sure my bluetooth dongle does BLE
2023-02-28T16:40:38 < karlp> somethign like https://github.com/hbldh/bleak/blob/develop/examples/sensortag.py#L100-L112 is ~about it.
2023-02-28T16:41:32 < karlp> https://bleak.readthedocs.io/en/latest/usage.html are pretty clear too I guess.
2023-02-28T16:41:36 < zyp> asyncio even, neat
2023-02-28T16:41:51 < karlp> yeah, if you've heard me learning to use asyncio, its' because I've been using this a lot :)
2023-02-28T16:42:12 < zyp> is there a sync API too?
2023-02-28T16:42:28 < karlp> nope.
2023-02-28T16:42:52 < zyp> ok, apython it is then
2023-02-28T16:42:53 < karlp> you use asyncio wrapper shit if you need to.
2023-02-28T16:43:11 < karlp> from my experience, doing some of it with bluez dbus python, you don't want to use sync anyway, 
2023-02-28T16:43:15 < zyp> nah, it's fine, just like starting out doing stuff from interactive CLI
2023-02-28T16:43:28 < karlp> some of that shit can be _slow_ and is meant to be async 
2023-02-28T16:43:42 < karlp> which is why they were using dbus in teh first place I guess.
2023-02-28T16:44:18 < zyp> bleak.exc.BleakError: BLE is unsupported
2023-02-28T16:44:24 < karlp> I can't help you with that one :)
2023-02-28T16:44:25 < zyp> ok, that's the answer to that
2023-02-28T16:44:28 < zyp> :)
2023-02-28T16:47:32 < zyp> so, question then is whether I should dig up something bleak works on or figure out something else that works with e.g. a nrf52 usb dongle
2023-02-28T16:47:59 < karlp> in theory, there's a zephyr example app that turns an nrf52 dongle into a standard HCI btusb device.
2023-02-28T16:48:26 < karlp> I did that very briefly maybe six months ago, and iirc it worked, but it was just to have a btle dongle at home
2023-02-28T16:48:38 < karlp> and I just found one in a drawer at work and switched tot hat for my home desktop
2023-02-28T16:49:13 < karlp> https://developer.nordicsemi.com/nRF_Connect_SDK/doc/latest/zephyr/samples/bluetooth/hci_uart/README.html
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2023-02-28T17:17:04 < kaki> Steffanx-: musics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CahotJ_WjvA
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2023-02-28T19:27:50 < Steffanx-> kaki want me to die?
2023-02-28T19:28:22 < kaki> idk
2023-02-28T19:28:24 < Steffanx-> or just ear cancer maybe
2023-02-28T19:31:42 < Steffanx-> anyway, thank you for this wonderful music kaki 
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2023-02-28T19:41:48 < kaki> that bass is low low
2023-02-28T19:47:43 -!- nerozero [~nerozero@87.253.63.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
2023-02-28T19:52:26 < kaki> "How to cancel upgrade to win11"
2023-02-28T19:52:50 < kaki> "Disable windows update service"
2023-02-28T19:52:58 < kaki> 8)
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2023-02-28T20:29:06 < josuah> kaki: nice!
2023-02-28T20:29:39 < josuah> I suppose windows admins need this to get their infrastructure going, so windows has to give the user the choice at some distant point
2023-02-28T20:29:49 < josuah> -
2023-02-28T20:30:30 < josuah> When someone says "having fun with embedded devices", it could mean bluetooth, ESP32, user tech gadgets
2023-02-28T20:30:45 < josuah> but to me it would more likely mean this: https://container-mag.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/The-Freerider-features-a-single-girder-rather-than-two.jpg
2023-02-28T20:30:49 < josuah> :P
2023-02-28T20:43:02 < kaki> explain
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2023-02-28T22:03:32 < zyp> karlp, ok, so I pulled out an old rpi and installed bleak, now I can scan for devices, but how do I connect?
2023-02-28T22:03:35 < zyp> bleak.exc.BleakDeviceNotFoundError: Device with address AC:23:3F:D3:78:92 was not found. It may have been removed from BlueZ when scanning stopped.
2023-02-28T22:04:33 < zyp> oh, it works if I run it sooner after a scan
2023-02-28T22:23:12 < josuah> kaki: sorry was away, explain the windows admin thing?
2023-02-28T22:23:29 < kaki> no
2023-02-28T22:23:41 < kaki> the container manipulator device thing
2023-02-28T22:23:45 < josuah> ah :)
2023-02-28T22:24:09 < josuah> after some time, to me, high-tech gadgets all feels like being about dreams
2023-02-28T22:24:32 < josuah> promising accessing greater level of existence through upcoming AI singularity of the century
2023-02-28T22:25:00 < kaki> yes
2023-02-28T22:25:01 < josuah> which at the end not changing much in practice
2023-02-28T22:25:09 < kaki> yes
2023-02-28T22:26:13 < josuah> on the other end, moving several tons of crates out of a 1.8V signal changing on a wee corner of a coated silicon crystal...
2023-02-28T22:26:19 < josuah> would be of the more thrilling kind to me
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2023-02-28T22:27:14 < josuah> like communication through the thing, which must be both very low lattency and extremely reliable
2023-02-28T22:27:30 < josuah> power distribution and balance through the various motors
2023-02-28T22:27:44 < josuah> designing a system out of many microcontrollers for independent parts of it
2023-02-28T22:28:13 < josuah> and trying to make all of it communicate so it can be driven with a single intent, without provoking conflicts of the parts
2023-02-28T22:30:17 < josuah> all about taste though: I understand different affinities... they make discussions interesting too
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2023-02-28T22:40:15 < zyp> josuah, I've written code throwing around a couple hundred kilowatts to move some tons, but it was all 3.3V logic
2023-02-28T22:40:53 < josuah> such beauty
2023-02-28T22:40:58 < zyp> well, not exactly sure on the power figure
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2023-02-28T23:27:09 < Laurence_b> kulaks did 9/11 !! one
2023-02-28T23:30:23 < Laurence_b> atmega is shit
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2023-02-28T23:35:03 < kaki> hello lurencer
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2023-02-28T23:43:18 < Laurence_b> >Spain legalized beastiality
2023-02-28T23:43:27 < Laurence_b> >I'm going to Spain to wurk on trains
2023-02-28T23:43:34 < Laurence_b> this jerb just gets better
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2023-02-28T23:46:52 < kaki> ikr
2023-02-28T23:47:03 < specing> LaurenceGPT
2023-02-28T23:48:53 < Laurence_b> lol
2023-02-28T23:49:12 < Laurence_b> GPT trained on my comments would be worse than bing chat trained on faceberg
2023-02-28T23:50:40 < specing> Laurence_b: yeah, but you could have the bot do posting on your behalf https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/automation.png
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--- Log closed ke maalis 01 00:00:20 2023