--- Log opened su loka 01 00:00:42 2023
2023-10-01T00:05:58 < fenugrec> I don't follow
2023-10-01T00:06:58 < fenugrec> BL entry : disable interrupts; if (condition) proceed to user_code, otherwise do BL stuff
2023-10-01T00:10:20 < qyx> ColdKeyboard: are you dealing with jumping to the bootloader while having the wdt enabled?
2023-10-01T00:10:52 < qyx> yes you either have to perform a reset in order to disable the wdt
2023-10-01T00:10:58 < qyx> or resetwdt in the bl
2023-10-01T00:12:54 < qyx> imo you should always jump to the bl with a reset, check the reset reason, always enable wdt in the bl, check the flag, do bl stuff if required, optionally change the wdt interval before jumping to the user code (to survive longer boots)
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2023-10-01T01:18:08 < zyp> jpa-, what's the reasonable way to handle DTC when I've got both current measurements multiplexed on one ADC? the board I designed got dedicated ADCs, but the board I bought for the test setup got them multiplexed
2023-10-01T01:20:03 < zyp> for the two measured phases it seems reasonable enough if they get switched as soon as the ADC results come in
2023-10-01T01:20:49 < zyp> but the third one that's calculated would then get a new «measurement» twice as often as the other two
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2023-10-01T04:59:25 < zyp> jpa-, I tried reasoning more around the deadband stuff and I realized that while the voltage vector is always pushing in a given direction regardless of what the current current is, the «slow decay» is always towards absolute zero
2023-10-01T05:03:08 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/Ws36c.png <- this is how it looks with an all(abs(x) < 1) deadband area, with 0, 0 being target current and x, y being measured current
2023-10-01T05:08:50 < zyp> and as you said, slow decay will try to push it out of the deadband area so that it ends up regulating around the edge of it, but the direction depends on where we are
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2023-10-01T05:16:24 < zyp> so I figure this is still the reasonable way to do a deadband, as long as the size of the deadband region is tuned reasonably
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2023-10-01T09:45:04 < jpa-> zyp: i would do just one switching after both ADC results arrive, but that's just for simplicity
2023-10-01T09:45:36 < jpa-> DTC is probably less sensitive to simultaneous vs. multiplexed sampling than PWM-based FOC would be
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2023-10-01T13:02:46 < zyp> jpa-, the issue with that is that the two measurements would be at different offsets from the switching event
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2023-10-01T13:10:51 < zyp> I was doing this testing earlier: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/wPrdp.png
2023-10-01T13:12:33 < zyp> this is with 50% pwm at 75MHz/128, and the ADC sample frequency happens to be 75MHz/64, so one measurement is measured in the on period and the other is measured in the off period
2023-10-01T13:12:57 < zyp> this is with a simple RL circuit hooked between just two outputs, one constantly low and one PWMed
2023-10-01T13:13:14 < zyp> and the L is probably too low for this to be a good simulation of a motor
2023-10-01T13:13:51 < zyp> if it were, the two currents should have been around equally large
2023-10-01T13:16:09 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/FfMHB.png <- this is output voltage, supply current and output current
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2023-10-01T13:45:44 < Laurenceb_> >RMS discovers hospital runs Windozer
2023-10-01T13:45:50 < Laurenceb_> >dies of cancer
2023-10-01T13:46:19 < Laurenceb_> >he dies of self inflicted cancer like Jobs, just for different reasons
2023-10-01T13:50:15 < kdehl> jpa- suggested I should add an UART for debugging too. I found that MaxLinear SP3232EEY is a basic part at JLC, so I will try that.
2023-10-01T13:50:43 < Laurenceb_> >pi5 cant run of battery
2023-10-01T13:50:50 < Laurenceb_> truly epic fail, they had one jerb
2023-10-01T13:51:08 < kdehl> It's funny, it's like an MAX3232 but all pins shifted. They added ~EN and ~SHDN pins at 1 and 18.
2023-10-01T13:51:27 < Laurenceb_> also Eben Upton is on hackaday comments and hes an ahole as expected from a Broadcom boss
2023-10-01T13:51:54 < zyp> kdehl, «add a UART» doesn't imply «add a RS232 transceiver on the UART»
2023-10-01T13:54:07 < kdehl> zyp: Well, it is a prerequisite. :)
2023-10-01T13:54:35 < kdehl> Do bootloaders have built-in consoles?
2023-10-01T13:55:10 < zyp> no, it's absolutely not a prerequisite
2023-10-01T13:55:35 < kdehl> Oh.
2023-10-01T13:55:51 < zyp> you'll be in the minority if you do actual RS232 for your debug UART
2023-10-01T13:55:55 < kdehl> I thought it was like a debug console.
2023-10-01T13:56:01 < kdehl> Heh. Okay.
2023-10-01T13:56:17 < kdehl> You do it over USB?
2023-10-01T13:56:18 < zyp> it is, but nobody connects them to actual RS232 ports nowadays
2023-10-01T13:56:21 < BrainDamage> rs232 is a standard of voltages, etc
2023-10-01T13:56:44 < BrainDamage> making it rs232 compliant will actually make it _harder_ to use
2023-10-01T13:56:59 < zyp> it's usual to just run standard 3.3V signalling directly to a usb-serial chip
2023-10-01T13:57:21 < kdehl> Right.
2023-10-01T13:57:41 < kdehl> Should I have a separate USB port for it?
2023-10-01T13:57:57 < kdehl> Apart from the USB that goes straight to the USB pins, that is.
2023-10-01T13:58:10 < BrainDamage> yes
2023-10-01T13:58:19 < zyp> you could do that if you want, but it's also common to just expose them on a header or testpoints or whatever
2023-10-01T13:58:22 < BrainDamage> in your pc that is
2023-10-01T13:58:32 < kdehl> Right.
2023-10-01T13:58:32 < BrainDamage> in the mcu, normally you just leave the serial pads
2023-10-01T13:59:46 < kdehl> I think I will add both though. As far as I understand, this STM32F446 has two UARTS, UART4 and UART5 if I remember correctly. I think I will put one through an USB port and another via a true RS232 9-pin DSUB port.
2023-10-01T14:00:00 < kdehl> *a
2023-10-01T14:00:39 < kdehl> I have a lot of retro equipment and it is quite satisfying to be able to connect a true serial port to the board.
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2023-10-01T14:03:05 < kdehl> Hm. I used a CP2102 in a previous project, but JLC doesn't seem to have those in stock.
2023-10-01T14:04:51 < kdehl> What am I talking about? Yes they do.
2023-10-01T14:05:10 < kdehl> Two bucks?!
2023-10-01T14:06:10 < kdehl> Is there a jelly bean chip you guys would use? I don't know where I got the CP2102 from.
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2023-10-01T14:10:21 < zyp> I wouldn't bother putting a uart-usb chip on the board
2023-10-01T14:10:30 < zyp> just put the uart signals on a header and call it a day
2023-10-01T14:11:13 < zyp> if you've already got a proper USB port on the board, having onboard USB-serial is of limited value
2023-10-01T14:11:45 < zyp> then just buy an external USB-serial adapter that you can hook up to it
2023-10-01T14:12:25 < zyp> I like the adafruit ft232h breakout, since they're useful for spi, i2c and jtag as well
2023-10-01T14:16:14 < kdehl> Yeah, I guess.
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2023-10-01T15:17:50 < jpa-> zyp: what is your expected current delta between ADC samples? i.e. Vsupply / Lmotor * Tadc?
2023-10-01T15:18:49 < jpa-> typically i'd expect something like 50V / 100µH * 1µs, which would give quite reasonable 500mA
2023-10-01T15:20:14 < jpa-> i think sampling at different offsets to switching event should average out; more delay => switch on and switch off are both delayed, but duty cycle remains roughly same
2023-10-01T15:21:07 < jpa-> not exactly same delay because the slope of current will be different between off and on states because of motor backemf voltage varying
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2023-10-01T16:24:20 < nomorekaki> endianess detection compile time tips?
2023-10-01T16:24:39 < nomorekaki> this sufficient?
2023-10-01T16:24:41 < nomorekaki>     #ifndef __BYTE_ORDER__
2023-10-01T16:24:42 < nomorekaki>     #error
2023-10-01T16:24:42 < nomorekaki>     #endif
2023-10-01T16:24:43 < nomorekaki>     #if(__BYTE_ORDER__ == __ORDER_BIG_ENDIAN__)
2023-10-01T16:24:43 < nomorekaki>     #else
2023-10-01T16:24:44 < nomorekaki>     #endif
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2023-10-01T17:24:50 < zyp> jpa-, I think intuitively that switching after each ADC sample would even out better
2023-10-01T17:25:30 < zyp> but it's sort of a moot discussion since it's only relevant for this shitty test setup
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2023-10-01T20:39:25 < kdehl> Okay, so I made a new revision of my first test board for the STM32F446: https://aws.dose.se/files/stm32f446_rev1b.pdf
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2023-10-01T20:39:53 < kdehl> I know you suggested not to have a separate USB port for UART, nor a true RS-232, but I kinda like it that way. :)
2023-10-01T20:40:24 < kdehl> Anyone wants to comment it?
2023-10-01T20:56:08 < nomorekaki> lets see
2023-10-01T20:57:03 < nomorekaki> rs-driver might need unused inputs tied*. *read datasheet
2023-10-01T20:58:23 < nomorekaki> you need to add PWR_FLAG to your voltage signals
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2023-10-01T21:03:46 < kdehl> nomorekaki: Ah, good point.
2023-10-01T21:03:50 < kdehl> *points
2023-10-01T21:04:57 < kdehl> But there's nothing else obvious that I have forgotten that will prevent the microcontroller from booting?
2023-10-01T21:05:55 < nomorekaki> 232 chip and cp210x do not have bypass caps of their own. if those are close proximity to other 0.1u it's fine
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2023-10-01T21:06:11 < nomorekaki> apparently it's a proximity thing
2023-10-01T21:06:44 < kdehl> Oh yeah, I forgot the GND Detect on the 10-pin JTAG. I'm a little uncertain about that.
2023-10-01T21:06:58 < nomorekaki> I don't remember what it's about
2023-10-01T21:07:34 < nomorekaki> given it's at bottom with GND next to it it's just GND
2023-10-01T21:09:00 < nomorekaki> ah it's for target to detect debug probe
2023-10-01T21:09:14 < nomorekaki> it's tied to GND at the end of debug probe
2023-10-01T21:09:34 < nomorekaki> do what you will with that vague information
2023-10-01T21:11:06 < nomorekaki> button doesn't have debounce circuit.. it's more of a taste thing. apparently it can be 100% done with sw if you want to
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2023-10-01T21:19:01 < nomorekaki> "The driver’s inputs do not have pull-
2023-10-01T21:19:01 < nomorekaki> up resistors. Designers should connect unused inputs to
2023-10-01T21:19:02 < nomorekaki> VCC or GND."
2023-10-01T21:19:07 < nomorekaki> for that 3232
2023-10-01T21:20:38 < nomorekaki> for stm32 you might need couple of 0.1u as supply pins can be physically opposite side of each other
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2023-10-01T21:21:15 < nomorekaki> you can add them even during layout process
2023-10-01T21:21:21 < nomorekaki> just import net again
2023-10-01T21:25:14 < nomorekaki> by quick googling boot pins should be fine
2023-10-01T21:26:29 < nomorekaki> go through open questions written on the schematic I guess
2023-10-01T21:28:27 < nomorekaki> hmm 2 usbs both have VBUS tied together into +5v
2023-10-01T21:28:50 < nomorekaki> not sure if it's a problems or not
2023-10-01T21:29:04 < zyp> kdehl, just tie gnddetect to gnd
2023-10-01T21:29:55 < zyp> it's pretty pointless as a signal so it's better to just have it be an extra ground to help with signal integrity
2023-10-01T21:30:52 < nomorekaki> hmm it's actually just a GND
2023-10-01T21:31:37 < nomorekaki> almost confused myself by saying it's tied to GND at probe end for target to detect tool
2023-10-01T21:31:54 < zyp> that's what it is
2023-10-01T21:32:43 < zyp> kdehl, usb sideband is nothing you need, it's used for various usb-c alternate functions
2023-10-01T21:32:58 < zyp> e.g. displayport or analog audio over usb-c uses them for signals
2023-10-01T21:34:00 < zyp> I don't recommend connecting the resets of the stm32 and the cp2102 together
2023-10-01T21:34:54 < nomorekaki> maybe use GPIO and external weak pulldown for that?
2023-10-01T21:35:24 < nomorekaki> does it need reset functionality at all?
2023-10-01T21:35:26 < zyp> the stm32 reset is bidirectional and will also *output* a reset pulse if there's an internal reset event, e.g. switching into or out of bootloader, and it'd be pretty annoying to have the usb serial adapter reset when that happens
2023-10-01T21:36:09 < nomorekaki> just tie it to 3v3?
2023-10-01T21:36:43 < zyp> and I don't recommend tying the two USB ports directly to 5V
2023-10-01T21:36:59 < nomorekaki> kdehl:  note CP2102/9 TX and RX directions
2023-10-01T21:37:22 < zyp> use a BAT54C or something between the usb ports and the 5V rail
2023-10-01T21:37:38 < nomorekaki> TX is driver and RX is input from what I gather by quick look
2023-10-01T21:38:05 < zyp> otherwise you risk compatibility issues
2023-10-01T21:39:02 < nomorekaki> zyp: would you tie cp2102 reset to 3v3?
2023-10-01T21:39:17 < zyp> probably, unless it needs anything more elaborate
2023-10-01T21:39:30 < zyp> never used it, can't say without checking datasheet, and I'm not gonna do that
2023-10-01T21:39:43 < zyp> but anyway
2023-10-01T21:40:17 < zyp> feeding 5V into an upstream USB connection means you risk backpowering a whole lot of stuff unintentionally
2023-10-01T21:40:37 < zyp> mostly not harmful in practice, but still poor design
2023-10-01T21:41:10 < zyp> and more importantly, it'll make highend usb-c stuff grumpy
2023-10-01T21:43:44 < nomorekaki> kdehl: Option 3: Avalanche transient voltage suppression diodes should be added for ESD protection.
2023-10-01T21:43:44 < nomorekaki> Option 3: Use Littlefuse p/n SP0503BAHT or equivalent. page15
2023-10-01T21:43:57 < zyp> if you claim you're a device that wants power, you're not allowed to output power, and if the host checks and sees you misbehaving, it may refuse to cooperate with you
2023-10-01T21:44:15 < zyp> I've seen this happen on other multiport usb-c devices where power bleeds from one port to the other
2023-10-01T21:52:15 < nomorekaki> even better if only one usb can be used for power
2023-10-01T21:52:41 < nomorekaki> I see LD1117 + BAT54C can cut close with voltage drop
2023-10-01T21:55:08 < nomorekaki> it might be acceptable or not but that is engineering decision we cannot make
2023-10-01T21:55:25 < kdehl> nomorekaki: Yeah, I tied the inputs to GND. I will also add decoupling capacitors for all chips.
2023-10-01T21:56:18 < kdehl> zyp: Alright. I was just curious what sideband was. I understood that I don't need it.
2023-10-01T21:56:53 < kdehl> zyp: I should have separate reset circuits?
2023-10-01T21:57:37 < kdehl> zyp: I'll look up BAT54C.
2023-10-01T21:58:30 < kdehl> nomorekaki: Yeah, you're right, I should add ESD protection.
2023-10-01T21:58:49 < nomorekaki> and those TX and RX pins might be driver against driver
2023-10-01T21:58:57 < nomorekaki> input against input
2023-10-01T21:59:28 < nomorekaki> crosscheck datasheet pin descriptions stm32 <-> CP2102
2023-10-01T21:59:43 < kdehl> nomorekaki: Okay. Will check.
2023-10-01T22:01:40 < kdehl> Another general question though, about the JTAG connectors. Someone said they're obsolete, everything nowadays is done over USB. But doesn't the device need a bootloader for that?
2023-10-01T22:02:41 < kdehl> zyp: I'm stupid. BAT54C are ESD protection. I used it myself just a few months ago. :)
2023-10-01T22:03:36 < nomorekaki> kdehl: obsolete what?
2023-10-01T22:04:19 < nomorekaki> ofc you need debug connector(s)
2023-10-01T22:05:14 < kdehl> Mkay.
2023-10-01T22:05:20 < nomorekaki> unless you have designed on-board debugger that uses usb
2023-10-01T22:06:21 < nomorekaki> designed in* on-board debugger
2023-10-01T22:07:30 < nomorekaki> that 20pin connector is rarelly used though
2023-10-01T22:09:05 < nomorekaki> if you don't use trace then it's 10pin cortex connector with 1.27mm pitch or maybe tagconnect or
2023-10-01T22:09:08 < kdehl> I know, I just happened to have used it in the past, so I know it works.
2023-10-01T22:09:40 < nomorekaki> for 1.27mm cortex you need to get the cable and adapters
2023-10-01T22:10:10 < kdehl> nomorekaki: I bought this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/294271928994
2023-10-01T22:10:34 < kdehl> It doesn't say. I for some reason assumed it's 2.54 pitch.
2023-10-01T22:10:37 < kdehl> *mm
2023-10-01T22:10:48 < nomorekaki> yeah the big one might be
2023-10-01T22:11:00 < nomorekaki> or 2.00mm or something never used it
2023-10-01T22:11:30 < nomorekaki> in your ebay item it looks like 2.54mm
2023-10-01T22:11:38 < kdehl> It does, doesn't it?
2023-10-01T22:11:56 < nomorekaki> well it has 2.54mm molex thing under it
2023-10-01T22:12:09 < nomorekaki> that 4pin thing
2023-10-01T22:12:49 < nomorekaki> only thing against using 20pin without trace pins is the size
2023-10-01T22:12:59 < kdehl> Also, I'm ridiculously stupid. The SP3232E is actually a MAX3232 clone. And not the weird 18-pin thingy I thought it was. Both were described in the datasheet so I mixed them up.
2023-10-01T22:13:40 < kdehl> nomorekaki: I bought this one too as a backup: https://www.ebay.com/itm/314750064727
2023-10-01T22:13:53 < nomorekaki> kdehl: does that debug probe have standard pinout?
2023-10-01T22:14:43 < kdehl> nomorekaki: I have no idea. I just assumed it was all standardized.
2023-10-01T22:15:13 < nomorekaki> JLink has it's own pinout at least that what I know
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2023-10-01T22:15:20 < Steffanx> no it does not
2023-10-01T22:15:36 < nomorekaki> Steffanx?
2023-10-01T22:16:36 < Steffanx> jlink doesnt have its own pinout.. ok there might be 1 or 2 additions, but those dont do anything by default.
2023-10-01T22:16:51 < kdehl> Ah. Phew.
2023-10-01T22:16:59 < Steffanx> and im pretty sure the official stlink has the same or very similar pinout.
2023-10-01T22:18:47 < Steffanx> I used the same 20pin to 10 pin adapter in the jlink and stlink, and its all fine. ;)
2023-10-01T22:19:18 < nomorekaki> https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/jtag-connectors-and-interfaces/
2023-10-01T22:19:24 < nomorekaki> it's a mess
2023-10-01T22:20:16 < Steffanx> its not that bad.
2023-10-01T22:21:30 < nomorekaki> so JLINK is ARM JTAG 20
2023-10-01T22:21:40 < nomorekaki> but what is arm coresight 20?
2023-10-01T22:21:54 < kdehl> nomorekaki: You're right, I seem to have switched the RX/TX signals between the CP2102 and the STM.
2023-10-01T22:22:32 < nomorekaki> TXD is the driver in STM32 right?
2023-10-01T22:22:32 < kdehl> Those things never seem to make any sense to me.
2023-10-01T22:22:52 < qyx> you can switch them on the stm32 side
2023-10-01T22:22:58 < qyx> in some newer stms
2023-10-01T22:23:16 < nomorekaki> qyx: how about if you want to flash via usb?
2023-10-01T22:23:21 < Steffanx> Yeah love that feature. Hardware engineers always fuck up
2023-10-01T22:23:25 < kdehl> nomorekaki: All I know is that I used this very circuit with an ESP32 earlier, and I did connect the RXD on the 2102 to the TX pin on the ESP32 and vice-versa.
2023-10-01T22:23:49 < qyx> yes thats right
2023-10-01T22:24:36 < qyx> tx is transmit, goes to rx, unless.. this is not the case
2023-10-01T22:24:53 < kdehl> Hm. Did I make the same mistake with the MAX3232?
2023-10-01T22:25:48 < kdehl> No. I think I got that right.
2023-10-01T22:27:15 < nomorekaki> qyx: can bootloader autodetect and switch pins?
2023-10-01T22:28:47 < kdehl> I made a new revision: https://aws.dose.se/files/stm32f446_rev1c.pdf
2023-10-01T22:28:50 < kdehl> Did I forget something?
2023-10-01T22:29:52 < kdehl> But the ESD of course.
2023-10-01T22:30:13 < kdehl> Heh. I called it ESP in the schematic.
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2023-10-01T22:32:04 < nomorekaki> VBUS if you want to make it more compatible
2023-10-01T22:33:59 < kdehl> Ah right!
2023-10-01T22:34:33 < kdehl> So what do I do, just leave the VBUS on the USB UART unconnected?
2023-10-01T22:35:31 < nomorekaki> single power or diode
2023-10-01T22:36:51 < nomorekaki> if it's not intended to power from usb uart then single power?
2023-10-01T22:37:19 < nomorekaki> if usb uart is used a lot then maybe sot23 double diode
2023-10-01T22:37:36 < zyp> kdehl, no, BAT54C is the simplest form of a power mux
2023-10-01T22:38:16 < nomorekaki> BAT54C it is
2023-10-01T22:40:17 < kdehl> I used a BAV99 in my previous project, apparently.
2023-10-01T22:40:31 < kdehl> For ESD protection. Not power isolation.
2023-10-01T22:46:57 < kdehl> zyp: Could you please explain to me how to use it? Or perhaps point me to where I can read more in order to understand it.
2023-10-01T22:49:40 < zyp> kdehl, see D1 on first page here: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/uQbNq/fanuc_module_fpga.pdf
2023-10-01T22:51:34 < kdehl> zyp: Yes.
2023-10-01T22:51:50 < zyp> it's just a pair of diodes
2023-10-01T22:52:26 < kdehl> Right. So I want both USB ports to be able to supply current to my board, just that they won't supply each other with current?
2023-10-01T22:52:32 < zyp> exactly
2023-10-01T22:52:36 < kdehl> Ah. Gotcha.
2023-10-01T22:52:58 < zyp> that's the easiest way to get a reasonable and safe solution to your problem
2023-10-01T22:54:02 < kdehl> Right.
2023-10-01T22:54:23 < zyp> you could also let one vbus stay unconnected, requiring the board to always be powered by the other
2023-10-01T22:55:10 < kdehl> Right. But if this might make my life a little easier, why not?
2023-10-01T22:55:13 < zyp> it's also fairly safe since the host pulls down the data lines when idle, so it wouldn't leak into an unpowerd board
2023-10-01T22:55:15 < kdehl> So, like this: https://aws.dose.se/files/stm32f446_rev1d.pdf
2023-10-01T22:55:26 < zyp> yes
2023-10-01T22:55:46 < zyp> I still don't see the point of J2
2023-10-01T22:56:28 < kdehl> You mean, I could do everything via USB?
2023-10-01T22:56:36 < nomorekaki> no need for adapters and 1.27mm cable?
2023-10-01T22:57:10 < zyp> I mean, J2 is the big JTAG connector, it does nothing that J3 doesn't also do
2023-10-01T22:57:13 < kdehl> Or you mean since I have J3 already.
2023-10-01T22:57:29 < zyp> it seems pointless to have both, and of the two, J3 is the better choice
2023-10-01T22:57:30 < kdehl> Right, it's just that the programmer I bought comes with that connector. Figured it'd make my life easy.
2023-10-01T23:01:12 < kdehl> Alright. So now I wonder about the BOOT0 pin. I got really confused when reading about all the boot modes, but what it does is just basically tell the MCU to boot from another address in memory?
2023-10-01T23:02:01 < zyp> yes
2023-10-01T23:02:32 < kdehl> Hah. Awesome.
2023-10-01T23:02:51 < zyp> there's three possible combinations of BOOT0 and BOOT1, to boot from flash, rom bootloader or ram
2023-10-01T23:03:55 < zyp> boot from ram is pretty pointless since you need something to get code into ram before you can run it anyway
2023-10-01T23:05:06 < zyp> rom bootloader can be somewhat useful, but I never use it, I typically prefer using a custom bootloader whenever I'm doing something that needs a bootloader
2023-10-01T23:05:26 < kdehl> Wait, it's actual ROM. Not EEPROM?
2023-10-01T23:06:31 < zyp> the ROM bootloader is fixed and can't be replaced
2023-10-01T23:06:41 < zyp> I'm not sure if it's maskrom or a locked flash area
2023-10-01T23:06:46 < kdehl> I see.
2023-10-01T23:07:28 < kdehl> Right. I did notice in the datasheet that they specify a version of the bootloader, but I always assumed you could re-flash it yourself. But so that's not the case.
2023-10-01T23:08:35 < zyp> nah, you're stuck with what it comes with
2023-10-01T23:08:41 < zyp> if you want to use it
2023-10-01T23:08:55 < kdehl> We must have been talking about different things then, because I was asking earlier if all ARM microcontrollers come with a bootloader and someone said no.
2023-10-01T23:08:57 < zyp> if you want to use a custom bootloader, you just stick it next to your application in regular flash
2023-10-01T23:09:13 < zyp> yes, the answer to that is still no
2023-10-01T23:09:28 < kdehl> Ah right. I see it now. :)
2023-10-01T23:09:34 < zyp> most if not all stm32 variants do
2023-10-01T23:09:40 < kdehl> Right.
2023-10-01T23:10:09 < zyp> but there's so many different ARM based microcontrollers from different vendors that some are bound not to have a bootloader
2023-10-01T23:10:26 < zyp> especially since the bootloader is a vendor thing, not anything ARM supplies
2023-10-01T23:10:41 < kdehl> Right.
2023-10-01T23:10:50 < kdehl> So, this is somehow connected to what you said about BOOT1 pin is quite useless and could just be tied to GND?
2023-10-01T23:12:05 < zyp> boot1 is what picks between rom bootloader and ram
2023-10-01T23:12:13 < nomorekaki> only thing you need BOOT1 other than GND for is boot from SRAM
2023-10-01T23:12:30 < zyp> and boot from ram is quite useless, so you want to tie it to the right level to boot from rom bootloader
2023-10-01T23:12:53 < kdehl> Right.
2023-10-01T23:13:11 < kdehl> So it's only useful if you have booted at least once already and filled that portion of RAM.
2023-10-01T23:13:11 < nomorekaki> why would you boot from SRAM zyp?
2023-10-01T23:13:26 < zyp> I don't know, I've never done it
2023-10-01T23:14:23 < kdehl> I do useless things all the time, I think I actually want to try it. :)
2023-10-01T23:23:39 < nomorekaki> kdehl: remember some bypass diodes
2023-10-01T23:24:35 < nomorekaki> also I didn't check your RS232 connection that DTE DCE thing and male female connector thing hurt my brain too much
2023-10-01T23:25:13 < nomorekaki> I made 2 iterations of RS232 board once I still don't know which one was correct
2023-10-01T23:26:26 < kdehl> nomorekaki: Haha. I did the exact same thing! I think this one is the correct one, but we'll see. I expect to have to make a second revision anyways. There's always some mistake somewhere.
2023-10-01T23:26:45 < nomorekaki> idk it's rather simple board
2023-10-01T23:27:23 < kdehl> So, BOOT1 picks between RAM and ROM, and BOOT0 picks between different locations in RAM and ROM respectively. And since booting from RAM is rather pointless, we tie BOOT1 to GND and let BOOT0 do the actualy picking. Does BOOT0 now pick between the non-reflashable ROM bootloader and my actual code in Flash?
2023-10-01T23:28:45 < kdehl> nomorekaki: Heh. It's my first ARM board. I did a PS/2 Micro Channel sound card once, it took me 14 revisions. Kid you not.
2023-10-01T23:29:31 < nomorekaki> PS/2 what
2023-10-01T23:29:58 < zyp> kdehl, almost right
2023-10-01T23:30:19 < zyp> BOOT0 picks between flash and RAM/ROM, BOOT1 only matters if BOOT0 is high
2023-10-01T23:31:42 < kdehl> nomorekaki: https://electronics.dose.se/#mca-sound-blaster
2023-10-01T23:31:49 < kdehl> zyp: Ah!
2023-10-01T23:39:50 < zyp> jpa-, DTC, first take: this is what I get with a zero setpoint and a zero deadband: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/qU1Bm.png
2023-10-01T23:40:11 < zyp> into a RL dummy load, not a real motor
2023-10-01T23:41:03  * kdehl was thinking DTE or DCE
2023-10-01T23:46:50 < kdehl> So, BOOT0=0 boots without boot loader. And if BOOT0=1, BOOT1 picks a bootloader from either ROM (BOOT1=0) or RAM (BOOT1=1). Is this correct?
2023-10-01T23:47:14 < zyp> no, that's a weird way to word it
2023-10-01T23:47:19 < kdehl> Okay. Heh.
2023-10-01T23:47:30 < zyp> the bootloader is what's in ROM
2023-10-01T23:47:38 < kdehl> Ah.
2023-10-01T23:47:44 < zyp> whatever you put in flash or RAM is up to you
2023-10-01T23:47:48 < kdehl> Right.
2023-10-01T23:47:49 < zyp> could be a bootloader, could be something else
2023-10-01T23:49:11 < kdehl> So, BOOT0=0 boots from flash. And if BOOT0=1, BOOT1 picks a location to boot from. BOOT1=0 starts executing the bootloader ROM, BOOT1=1 starts executing from RAM.
2023-10-01T23:49:24 < kdehl> Better? :)
2023-10-01T23:49:37 < zyp> yes
2023-10-01T23:49:53 < kdehl> Then there were some bits to lock out certain combinations and whatnot, but this is the basic configuration.
2023-10-01T23:51:34 < kdehl> Could RAM in this case be external RAM?
2023-10-01T23:52:12 < zyp> no, it's the start of SRAM which is usually at address 0x20000000
2023-10-01T23:52:33 < zyp> whearas flash means start executing at 0x08000000
2023-10-01T23:53:03 < zyp> and rom bootloader is also at another address somewhere, IIRC it starts with 0x1f
2023-10-01T23:53:25 < kdehl> Alright.
2023-10-01T23:54:06 < kdehl> These addresses are standardized by ARM?
2023-10-01T23:55:32 < nomorekaki> I think not
2023-10-01T23:56:11 < zyp> kinda
2023-10-01T23:57:57 < zyp> IIRC ARMv7M defines 0x00000000..0x20000000 to be code space, 0x20000000..0x40000000 to be data space, 0x40000000..… to be peripheral space and so on
2023-10-01T23:58:44 < zyp> so the various kinds of memories are usually found somewhere in those regions
2023-10-01T23:58:57 < kdehl> Right.
2023-10-01T23:59:31 < zyp> internal ram starting at 0x20000000 is very common, ST does flash at 0x0800… but other vendors often put flash directly at 0x0
2023-10-01T23:59:36 < zyp> actually
2023-10-01T23:59:52 < zyp> the thing that boot0/boot1 controls are which memory area gets aliased to 0x0
--- Day changed ma loka 02 2023
2023-10-02T00:00:17 < zyp> the CPU always boots from 0x0, and then it varies whether you've got flash, ram or rom bootloader aliased there
2023-10-02T00:01:18 < zyp> note that what I'm saying might not be true for every chip, the cortex-m7 ones typically have more complex memory systems with more areas and other offsets
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2023-10-02T00:11:29 < kdehl> Oh. So it's just that it uses an MMU?
2023-10-02T00:14:49 < qyx> no
2023-10-02T00:15:11 < kdehl> Anyway, I just wanted to thank you guys. I don't think I've ever found a channel with people that are so helpful to beginners.
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2023-10-02T00:18:50 < nomorekaki> not always
2023-10-02T00:20:39 < Steffanx> Just take the compliment nomorekaki 
2023-10-02T00:21:11 < nomorekaki> I mean kdehl clearly is not beginner beginner
2023-10-02T00:22:45 < kdehl> Well, when it comes to ARM I'm certainly am.
2023-10-02T00:26:49 < qyx> you just didn't encounter the grumpy of us
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2023-10-02T00:27:23 < qyx> say yes Steffanx pls
2023-10-02T00:28:33 < Steffanx> Who's the grumpy one qyx?
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2023-10-02T00:45:53 < kdehl> I'm ridiculously excited about this board. It's like a whole new world to me.
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2023-10-02T01:02:03 < zyp> jpa-, looks much more sensible with an actual motor connected: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/yTtjL.png
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2023-10-02T01:54:53 < zyp> jpa-, this is not very pretty: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/Mxuur.png
2023-10-02T01:56:47 < zyp> but then it's running at close to 200 electrical rotations per second, and the current setpoints are calculated by linuxcnc at 1kHz, so it doesn't get many current steps per revolution
2023-10-02T01:57:02 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/qdaFg.png
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2023-10-02T02:16:30 < zyp> much better at 5kHz
2023-10-02T02:17:15 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/6Fuvn.png
2023-10-02T02:17:24 < zyp> lets motor run twice as fast as well
2023-10-02T02:17:49 < zyp> which is interesting, because that's over 6k RPM and it's rated for 4k
2023-10-02T02:19:06 < zyp> OTOH the datasheet also says 4.1 V/Krpm, which is closer to 6k at 24V
2023-10-02T02:25:04 < qyx> does it have some high ratio gearbox?
2023-10-02T02:25:19 < zyp> no gearbox
2023-10-02T02:25:31 < qyx> oh isn't it the arm servo?
2023-10-02T02:25:51 < qyx> for some reason I though you are testig he arm motors
2023-10-02T02:26:09 < zyp> I'm testing the control logic that I will be using to drive the arm motors
2023-10-02T02:26:25 < zyp> on a small little 26W motor on my desk
2023-10-02T02:27:43 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/ESUj8.jpg
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2023-10-02T02:28:10 < qyx> we did some test jigs for franka emika bldc motors back in 2018 or so
2023-10-02T02:28:33 < qyx> they had nice planetary gearboxes
2023-10-02T02:28:55 < zyp> the stuff I did for work last year also did
2023-10-02T02:29:23 < qyx> how do you like the owon?
2023-10-02T02:29:55 < zyp> haven't used it enough to have an opinion yet
2023-10-02T02:30:33 < zyp> but I like how it's sitting on the shelf
2023-10-02T02:40:35 < zyp> hmm, actively braking this thing at 24V is dangerous, quickly shoots past absolute max rating for the driver chips
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2023-10-02T08:23:52 < jpa-> zyp: how does it sound like?
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2023-10-02T09:17:02 < zyp> jpa-, white noise, as you said
2023-10-02T09:32:36 < jpa-> good :)
2023-10-02T09:33:19 < jpa-> then it is at least not overly choppy
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2023-10-02T09:44:26 < jpa-> zyp: is that the XDM1041? i have the XDM2041, been meaning to write some custom FW to get graphs and fancy stuff like that :)
2023-10-02T09:45:09 < zyp> yes, it is
2023-10-02T09:46:47 < zyp> also, I feel the response of my DTC stuff is oddly slow
2023-10-02T09:48:47 < zyp> I mean, look at the capture with the dummy inductor: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/qU1Bm.png
2023-10-02T09:49:27 < zyp> I don't understand why it's not switching earlier
2023-10-02T09:50:23 < zyp> and also not why they're not switching at the same time
2023-10-02T09:50:29 < zyp> roughly
2023-10-02T09:51:02 < jpa-> what are the yellow and blue ones? phase voltages?
2023-10-02T09:51:06 < zyp> ADC sample interval is less than a microsecond
2023-10-02T09:51:08 < zyp> yes
2023-10-02T09:51:34 < jpa-> hmm yeah, pretty slow to be even deadtime anywhere
2023-10-02T09:51:50 < zyp> IIRC that was without deadtime, and target = 0
2023-10-02T09:52:21 < jpa-> it seems to be switching to 000 state first, then to the opposite state
2023-10-02T09:52:32 < zyp> 111 state, actually
2023-10-02T09:52:43 < jpa-> yeah
2023-10-02T09:52:59 < zyp> or rather x11 since this was a single phase dummy load
2023-10-02T09:53:34 < jpa-> if you have 111/000 in your control, for 0 target current i'd expect it to just stay there :)
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2023-10-02T09:54:45 < zyp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/9tt9m
2023-10-02T09:56:40 < jpa-> how much is the deadband?
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2023-10-02T09:56:59 < zyp> configurable, I've got it hooked up to a HAL pin
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2023-10-02T09:57:13 < zyp> 0 on that scope capture
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2023-10-02T09:57:42 < zyp> and yes, with enough deadband to ignore ADC noise, it stays off
2023-10-02T09:57:46 < jpa-> hmm.. well then it is weird indeed
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2023-10-02T09:58:32 < zyp> I suspect it's some dumb noise and/or aliasing effects
2023-10-02T09:59:02 < zyp> the current is measured by a pair of acs711 sensors, which should respond faster
2023-10-02T09:59:23 < zyp> although I haven't measured how the analog output from them looks
2023-10-02T09:59:29 < jpa-> what is the current measurement resolution on the ADC?
2023-10-02T10:03:27 < zyp> it's a 12-bit ADC
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2023-10-02T10:10:43 < jpa-> so, about 7mA per LSB?; yeah, doesn't explain it either
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2023-10-02T10:14:52 < zyp> around 9mA per LSB if I'm mathing right
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2023-10-02T10:16:41 < jpa-> yeah
2023-10-02T10:16:44 < zyp> according to the ACS711 datasheet, the sensors I've got are designed for a range of ±15.5A, but doesn't stretch that all the way rail to rail
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2023-10-02T10:17:35 < zyp> so the full ADC range covers ±18.3A
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2023-10-02T10:20:45 < zyp> wait
2023-10-02T10:21:07 < zyp> in the ACS711 datasheet, on page 4, there's a C_LOAD symbol
2023-10-02T10:21:12 < zyp> says max 1nF
2023-10-02T10:21:23 < zyp> is that the maximum allowable load on the output?
2023-10-02T10:21:48 < jpa-> the analog output?
2023-10-02T10:21:52 < zyp> yeah
2023-10-02T10:22:22 < jpa-> well that's the max i would put on it :)
2023-10-02T10:22:43 < jpa-> unless you are doing some RC filtering with extra series R also
2023-10-02T10:23:02 < zyp> okay, so that's another stupid design decision trenz did then, because they put 1uF on it…
2023-10-02T10:23:08 < zyp> https://shop.trenz-electronic.de/trenzdownloads/Trenz_Electronic/Pmods/TEP0005/REV01/Documents/SCH-TEP0005-01.PDF
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2023-10-02T10:24:10 < zyp> so I guess that's what's slowing down the response rate and thereby ruining the performance
2023-10-02T10:25:07 < jpa-> sounds plausible
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2023-10-02T10:26:12 < zyp> I love that they've got 0R on the ground, but hardwired signal, so I can't put in a resistor to make a RC filter either
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2023-10-02T10:27:44 < zyp> but I guess the ACS711 might already filter the signal sufficiently internally that I don't need an external antialiasing filter, so I could just remove the caps and not replace them with smaller ones?
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2023-10-02T10:30:18 < jpa-> a small cap could be good to avoid ADC sampling from causing a drop in signal
2023-10-02T10:30:45 < jpa-> ADS7947 has a rather large 32 pF sampling capacitance
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2023-10-02T17:12:22 < invzim> zyp: fame and fortune for you :)  http://www.ganssle.com/tem/tem475.html
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2023-10-02T18:06:30 < zyp> jpa-, things seems to behave a lot better with those capacitors removed: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/YRZmR.png
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2023-10-02T18:28:48 < zyp> now I get switching events at the ADC sample rate: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/TPyhO.png
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2023-10-02T19:15:27 < jpa-> zyp: nice
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2023-10-02T20:02:03 < nomorekaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CprfjfN5PRs musics
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2023-10-02T22:16:44 < machinehum> You guys use cobs for sending serial data from mcu to mcu?
2023-10-02T22:16:57 < machinehum> Trying to figure out a way to not loose sync
2023-10-02T22:22:37 < fenugrec> cobs?
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2023-10-02T22:27:18 < Steffanx> Isn't the point of cobs that you can (try to) resync on 0x00?
2023-10-02T22:27:54 < zyp> yes, COBS is a decent framing layer
2023-10-02T22:30:50 < zyp> and yes, the point of COBS is to be an efficient way of encoding a frame to not contain 0x00 (or another byte value) so it can be used as a delimiter
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2023-10-02T23:09:08 < nomorekaki> movie
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2023-10-02T23:14:35 < Steffanx> Nomorekaki: Dora and the Lost City of Gold
2023-10-02T23:21:12 < nomorekaki> maybe
2023-10-02T23:22:00 < nomorekaki> I need a plan for movie night in about 2weeks
2023-10-02T23:22:18 < nomorekaki> so that we have a movie
2023-10-02T23:25:04 < nomorekaki> for that Dora doesn't cut it but I might watch it
2023-10-02T23:27:59 < PaulFertser> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stranger_Than_Paradise
2023-10-02T23:29:48 < ventYl> my cats are getting cold
2023-10-02T23:30:00 < specing> nomorekaki: A Clockwork Orange, Dr. Strangelove, ..
2023-10-02T23:30:57 < nomorekaki> I have not seen Dr. Strangelove
2023-10-02T23:31:02 < ventYl> go and see it
2023-10-02T23:31:06 < fenugrec> it's overrated
2023-10-02T23:31:09 < ventYl> i have seen it recently
2023-10-02T23:31:22 < fenugrec> like most kubrick stuff
2023-10-02T23:31:55 < specing> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Strangelove
2023-10-02T23:32:06 < specing> fenugrec: idk, looked very good to me
2023-10-02T23:32:17 < specing> >The film is often considered one of the best comedies ever made and one of the greatest films of all time.
2023-10-02T23:32:24 < specing> certainly on point
2023-10-02T23:32:52 < PaulFertser> https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/111160426488046610 Apple managed to seriously screw up DSP bass enhancement on M2 and nobody noticed for more than a year.
2023-10-02T23:34:03 < fenugrec> specing, ofc, many enjoyed it. I just have been disappointed again and again by kubric
2023-10-02T23:34:38 < fenugrec> "best comedies ever made", is extremely debatable
2023-10-02T23:34:55 < nomorekaki> I doubt too
2023-10-02T23:35:22 < specing> fenugrec: ofc, it's subjective
2023-10-02T23:35:33 < ventYl> and completely OK
2023-10-02T23:39:00 < ventYl> damn these NXP guys are not able to keep things consistent for three pages
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2023-10-02T23:42:14 < nomorekaki> ventYl: are you building a heater for your cats?
2023-10-02T23:42:54 < ventYl> nomorekaki: nope, at best they'll get dog mattress
2023-10-02T23:43:04 < nomorekaki> how about fireplace?
2023-10-02T23:43:09 < bitmask> hmm, whats a good very low fat, very low insoluble fiber meal to eat after not eating for 9 days
2023-10-02T23:43:46 < ventYl> nomorekaki: i have uninstalled it last winter and as of now have no plans on installing new one
2023-10-02T23:44:00 < nomorekaki> how about radiator?
2023-10-02T23:44:09 < ventYl> not turned on yet
2023-10-02T23:47:23 < nomorekaki> cardboard box against the radiator and insulated from the floor should do
2023-10-02T23:48:06 < ventYl> they are definitely attracted to carboard boxes
2023-10-02T23:49:40 < nomorekaki> heated cardboard box would be the optimum
2023-10-02T23:49:52 < ventYl> ideal fire hazard
2023-10-02T23:50:16 < nomorekaki> ye
2023-10-02T23:51:22 < ventYl> have you set your weird bmw on fire already?
2023-10-02T23:51:46 < nomorekaki> it's making sounds
2023-10-02T23:51:58 < nomorekaki> give it time
2023-10-02T23:55:22 < ventYl> does the pump turn already?
2023-10-02T23:57:32 < nomorekaki> not yet
2023-10-02T23:58:05 < nomorekaki> are you excited?
2023-10-02T23:59:53 < ventYl> nope, i've been told by an bmw engineer what whoever tries that should stick rag into fuel tak inlet and set the car on fire
2023-10-02T23:59:59 < ventYl> and I am going to follow that advice
--- Day changed ti loka 03 2023
2023-10-03T00:00:16 < ventYl> for the lack of any better ideas, I bought japanese car
2023-10-03T00:00:36 < fenugrec> did you have a subscription-based bmw
2023-10-03T00:00:56 < ventYl> i never had any BMW
2023-10-03T00:01:08 < fenugrec> a
2023-10-03T00:01:17 < zyp> unsubscribe
2023-10-03T00:03:36 < nomorekaki> ventYl: I'm kinda pissed that they went to integrated fuelpump + filter around that time
2023-10-03T00:04:20 < ventYl> i would probably be more pissed off by the fact that there are like 6 CAN buses which lead to the fuel pump assembly
2023-10-03T00:04:32 < nomorekaki> na
2023-10-03T00:04:35 < nomorekaki> just one
2023-10-03T00:04:38 < nomorekaki> PT-CAN
2023-10-03T00:04:50 < nomorekaki> in e90 at least
2023-10-03T00:06:36 < nomorekaki> but the thing is that the fuelpump and the filter is this plastic contraption inside fuel tank and costs like 400 or something
2023-10-03T00:07:18 < ventYl> can't the fuel pump be simply unclipped from it and replaced separately? mine also has plastic housing for the fuel pump but you can unclip it
2023-10-03T00:07:28 < ventYl> and any fuel pump costs less than 80 euros
2023-10-03T00:07:40 < nomorekaki> I will check
2023-10-03T00:08:30 < ventYl> simple hint: if you can buy the pump as a spare part without the rest, then it has to be removable on its own
2023-10-03T00:08:52 < nomorekaki> yes
2023-10-03T00:08:54 < ventYl> while this stuff fails regularly, they are often designed so that they can be replaced quickly
2023-10-03T00:11:34 < nomorekaki> https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/showparts?id=VD31-EUR-06-2006-E90-BMW-330xi&diagId=16_0601
2023-10-03T00:12:12 < ventYl> that sucks
2023-10-03T00:13:53 < nomorekaki> idk can car work propperly 250k with one fuel filter?
2023-10-03T00:14:04 < nomorekaki> it's integrated to that thing
2023-10-03T00:14:27 < ventYl> aren't those two assemblies? one for fuel pump another for fuel filter/regulator?
2023-10-03T00:14:58 < ventYl> both connected via hose inside the fuel tank
2023-10-03T00:16:07 < nomorekaki> aah
2023-10-03T00:16:12 < nomorekaki> indeed
2023-10-03T00:16:19 < ventYl> the reason will probably be, that the car has intermediate driveshaft underneath the fuel tank, which is essentially split into two halves, so they have quite complicated plumbing in order for one fuel pump being able to draw fuel from both halves
2023-10-03T00:16:32 < ventYl> because I see two fuel level sensors there
2023-10-03T00:17:42 < nomorekaki> filter is 219eur
2023-10-03T00:18:02 < nomorekaki> pump is 370 or something
2023-10-03T00:18:16 < nomorekaki> plus shipping
2023-10-03T00:19:03 < ventYl> i'd check maintenance manual on how often to change the fuel filter and how to do that
2023-10-03T00:19:23 < fenugrec> you probably have a pump inlet screen and some other filter closer to the fuel rails ?
2023-10-03T00:20:33 < ventYl> probably, the filter in tank is usually to protect pump from drawing something large in
2023-10-03T00:21:02 < ventYl> it's not unusual to find stuff such as tiny stones in the fuel tank
2023-10-03T00:21:18 < ventYl> you definitely don't want the pump to suck that in
2023-10-03T00:21:40 < nomorekaki> I went under the car and there was no filter where the filter was in videos
2023-10-03T00:21:45 < nomorekaki> just straight fuel line
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2023-10-03T00:23:21 < ventYl> maybe the fuel line rotten off and previous owner replaced it by straight line?
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2023-10-03T00:24:40 < nomorekaki> nah I just confirmed it is in the tank yes
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2023-10-03T00:24:48 < nomorekaki> youtubs video shows it
2023-10-03T00:27:52 < nomorekaki> prices are real... 600eur total for peace of mind
2023-10-03T00:29:22 < ventYl> almost half of the price of the cheapest all-wheeler which is not Niva
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2023-10-03T00:37:33 < nomorekaki> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32954152757.html KLORY!
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2023-10-03T00:47:45 < ventYl> nah
2023-10-03T00:47:48 < ventYl> viel gluck
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2023-10-03T00:55:52 < Steffanx> Danke schön
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2023-10-03T15:55:34 < jpa-> heh, digikey now has a purchase limit on STM32 dev boards: max 20 pcs per month
2023-10-03T16:18:48 < gurki> argh i integrate these tiny nucleos in a lot of stuff
2023-10-03T16:18:56 < gurki> i guess its my fault :3
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2023-10-03T16:37:05 < jpa-> what a weird thing to do :D
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2023-10-03T17:30:35 < zyp> jpa-, did you run into it? how?
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2023-10-03T19:06:39 < jpa-> zyp: nope, it just says it outright :)
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--- Day changed ke loka 04 2023
2023-10-04T00:07:17 < kdehl> Alright, I finished my first STM32 test board. I feel so grown-up now. Moving away from 8051 and AVR to the big boys' club of ARM.
2023-10-04T00:07:30 < ventYl> \o/
2023-10-04T00:10:42 < kdehl> That being said, the world seems to move to RISC-V these days, so maybe I'm not that grown up after all... :-/
2023-10-04T00:11:06  * kdehl just realized that might be a great taboo in this channel
2023-10-04T00:11:23 < zyp> jpa-, did an inverse DQ0 in HDL: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/oxHWS
2023-10-04T00:11:42 < zyp> seems to simulate correctly, not sure how well it'll synthesize yet :)
2023-10-04T00:11:57 < ventYl> kdehl: ARM is gonna a stay with us for some time
2023-10-04T00:16:21 < kdehl> ventYl: Yeah, I guess.
2023-10-04T00:16:36 < kdehl> After all, even the 8051 is still in production.
2023-10-04T00:16:57 < kdehl> At least in the form of the AT89S51.
2023-10-04T00:18:39 < ventYl> there are industries which didn't realize we live in 21st century
2023-10-04T00:19:50 < kdehl> Or have lots of legacy equipment that needs to be maintained.
2023-10-04T00:20:38 < ventYl> such stuff is usually out of production for decades
2023-10-04T00:20:56 < ventYl> and it has 5 users globally all of them running on special long-term support
2023-10-04T00:21:46 < ventYl> there are new designs being made on really ancient CPUs these days
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2023-10-04T00:22:57 < kdehl> I've worked in several industries where the factory machines were controlled by old DOS machines from the early 80s. Usually those machines were designed in-house.
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2023-10-04T00:23:24 < ventYl> DOS is frequently used in aerospace industry these days
2023-10-04T00:23:26 < ventYl> for new designs
2023-10-04T00:23:51 < ventYl> after all it's an ultimate RTOS
2023-10-04T00:24:30 < ventYl> it doesn't stick its fingers anywhere and its errata is most probably finalized after those 4 decades of use
2023-10-04T00:24:56 < kdehl> Heh. I guess. I'm currently working for a mining equipment manufacturer and they just recently moved away from DOS.
2023-10-04T00:25:50 < kdehl> Yup. I worked at a military contractor earlier and man, there were lots of legacy stuff going on. Much programming were still done in ADA.
2023-10-04T00:25:54 < kdehl> *wsa
2023-10-04T00:25:55 < kdehl> was
2023-10-04T00:26:08 < ventYl> military loves Ada
2023-10-04T00:26:24 < ventYl> for some good reasons
2023-10-04T00:27:31 < kdehl> Never really understood it. All new projects were based on C++.
2023-10-04T00:27:44 < kdehl> A subset of C++.
2023-10-04T00:28:03 < ventYl> yeah, probably something close to MISRA-C++
2023-10-04T00:28:10 < kdehl> So really, I never really understood why they didn't just stick with C, since you weren't allowed to use any modern features of C++ anyway.
2023-10-04T00:28:27 < kdehl> Haven't heard of that before.
2023-10-04T00:29:02 < ventYl> MISRA is subset of C (not really sure about C++) used for embedded development in automotive
2023-10-04T00:29:25 < ventYl> it originates from some military / NASA recommendations from '60s / '70s IIRC
2023-10-04T00:29:27 < kdehl> Just looked it up. Seems to be used mostly in the US?
2023-10-04T00:29:35 < ventYl> nope, globally
2023-10-04T00:29:47 < kdehl> Oh okay.
2023-10-04T00:30:22 < kdehl> Never encountered it when I was a programmer there. I guess they were using their own standards. They usually did. Heh.
2023-10-04T00:30:42 < ventYl> they have some MIL-STD C or something like that
2023-10-04T00:32:00 < kdehl> Hm. When I think of it, their style guide was definitely made by themselves. That being said, they could of course have based it on some kind of standard. I dunno.
2023-10-04T00:32:38 < ventYl> mining equipment is not something of general use, so it is less regulated and standardized than automotive
2023-10-04T00:33:15 < ventYl> but you still have Tier1s and rolling out entirely in-house coding standards can get prohibitively expensive if you insist on qualified / certified software
2023-10-04T00:35:36 < kdehl> I was talking about my previous job, a military contractor.
2023-10-04T00:36:12 < ventYl> who knows
2023-10-04T00:38:05  * specing loves Ada too
2023-10-04T00:38:23 < specing> kdehl: download GNAT, you can program stm32 in Ada, too
2023-10-04T00:39:48 < kdehl> Hehe. Nah, I'm good.
2023-10-04T00:40:38 < kdehl> I never got to do it. I was part of a new-ish project that stuck to (pre-11) C++.
2023-10-04T00:40:47 < specing> ah, shame
2023-10-04T00:41:07 < specing> sticking to pre-11 C++ is also very dumb
2023-10-04T00:41:21 < kdehl> Actually, yes. I would probably have liked ADA.
2023-10-04T00:41:30 < kdehl> Yeah, they were conservative, to say the least.
2023-10-04T00:41:53 < specing> Ada*
2023-10-04T00:42:04 < specing> ADA = Americans with (writing?) Disabilities Act
2023-10-04T00:48:11 < specing> kdehl: https://www.adacore.com/download (the native toolchain for GPS and utils + ARM toolchain for stm32s) or ARM GNAT from your distro
2023-10-04T00:48:13 < kdehl> I must say I'm impressed. I search for TDA1308 on Mouser and they list a TS482IST. The latter makes no mention of the former, but still it's a good replacement, it seems.
2023-10-04T00:48:46 < kdehl> https://www.freshports.org/lang/gnatdroid-binutils/
2023-10-04T00:49:14 < kdehl> I might have a look at it some day.
2023-10-04T00:53:42 < specing> oooh Ada on Android? Consider me interested...
2023-10-04T00:55:05 < Steffanx> Run...
2023-10-04T00:59:20 < kdehl> Haha
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2023-10-04T01:42:27 < zyp> jpa-, had to fix a couple of bugs wrt. signedness and overflow that didn't show up in simulation, but now it works and calculates the same value on the fpga as linuxcnc's bldc component
2023-10-04T01:42:50 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/YcJLb.png
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2023-10-04T14:39:46 < qyx> xz is so slow to compress
2023-10-04T14:46:36 < qyx> 6 hours to compress a 32GB sdcard image
2023-10-04T14:53:56 < srk> pxz or zstd?
2023-10-04T14:56:38 < qyx> xz, no zstd
2023-10-04T14:57:03 < srk> I mean you can try these to go faster
2023-10-04T14:57:59 < qyx> I used lzop because lazy
2023-10-04T14:58:06 < qyx> I'll recompress it using xz oevrnight
2023-10-04T15:02:30 < qyx> I am now limited by the card reader at 17.5 MB/s
2023-10-04T15:07:03 < srk> pipe dd into lzop?
2023-10-04T15:07:33 < qyx> yeah
2023-10-04T15:12:48 < mawk> what dd parameters you used
2023-10-04T15:17:03 < qyx> bs=1M
2023-10-04T15:17:30 < qyx> this is the fastest one
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2023-10-04T15:56:26 < BrainDamage> how much compression ratio are you even achieving?
2023-10-04T15:59:01 < qyx> 32G to ~900M with lzop
2023-10-04T15:59:46 < qyx> but I resized things a bit and now I have 2G -> 800M
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2023-10-04T21:04:50 < Laurenceb_> reeee
2023-10-04T21:05:02 < Laurenceb_> why are all hd4478 lcds azn character set
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2023-10-04T21:51:10 < zyp> because it's originally a Hitachi chip, which is a japanese company
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--- Day changed to loka 05 2023
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2023-10-05T00:56:35 < karlp> imagine using a character lcd in $YEAR...
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2023-10-05T00:57:11 < karlp> (especially when this is an option: https://twitter.com/portalgraph/status/1709373887581171802
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2023-10-05T04:34:14 < begriffs> On Cortex-M4 when I get into a fault handler the stacktrace gets weird. I know how to restore the stack to the correct value by looking in the registers so that's not a problem. However, I'm curious what exactly the stack represents in its weird state. It goes xPortStartScheduler -> prvPortStartFirstTask -> <signal handler called> -> arm_hardfault_isr
2023-10-05T04:35:04 < begriffs> So it's not like it's totally wrong, it just kind of skips over things.
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2023-10-05T04:59:25 < begriffs> Hm, looking at the GDB source, I guess it prints the signal handler thing for a SIGTRAMP_FRAME, which happens when the function address is EXC_RETURN.
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2023-10-05T08:46:45 < jpa-> begriffs: cortex-m has two stack pointers (which gdb should print with   p /x $psp   and    p /x $msp ), maybe the backtrace is coming from the wrong one
2023-10-05T08:48:09 < jpa-> the   <signal handler called>   is normal and expected, but i don't know why sometimes the backtrace beyond that uses wrong stack pointer
2023-10-05T08:48:19 < jpa-> modern openocd & gdb *should* automatically pick the right one
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2023-10-05T10:20:34 < jpa-> heh, got a follow-up call from aisler: "Is there anything we could do better on your next PCBA project?" "Well how about assembling the STM32s right way around?" "Yes I noticed there were some issues. Maybe next time send us email before you order and we can look it over."
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2023-10-05T10:20:56 < jpa-> so i guess next time i'll mail them a screenshot of the STM32 package marking doc beforehand ;)
2023-10-05T10:22:22 < ventYl> hm, if I was aisler, I would probably issued some kind of assembly notice
2023-10-05T10:23:11 < ventYl> is the assembly process at aisler fully automated? I guess so. Isn't proper orientation apparent from the files you send over to them?
2023-10-05T10:23:12 < zyp> I'd be tempting to reply something like «sorry, I assumed you were competent»
2023-10-05T10:23:48 < ventYl> that'd be sign of bad personality
2023-10-05T10:23:59 < qyx> no that's called assertivity
2023-10-05T10:24:05 < zyp> yeah, that's why it'd remain as a temptation
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2023-10-05T10:37:02 < jpa-> ventYl: pin 1 location was apparent from my silkscreen, but they mistook the LQFP mold release circle for the orientation dot
2023-10-05T10:37:41 < jpa-> and no, it appears their assembly process is not as automated as e.g. jlcpcb; seems they load even basic 0603 resistor values separately for each project
2023-10-05T10:38:14 < jpa-> because they shipped me 5 left-over 10kohm resistors..
2023-10-05T10:39:35 < jpa-> https://elospex.com/en/   i might try getting a quote from here next time.. a few clients are not ok with china assembly
2023-10-05T10:40:25 < ventYl> I am neither. They might be cheap'n'fast but if we give up on everything due to price, we end(ed) up incapable of manufacturing anything
2023-10-05T10:44:21 < jpa-> i'm ok with the price (client pays), and i'm somewhat ok with the time (4 weeks aisler vs. 2 weeks jlcpcb); but i'm not that ok on the quality being crap (assembly errors, left-over ugly flux stains on THT parts)
2023-10-05T10:44:54 < jpa-> that said, i did find a poor solder joint on my previous jlcpcb PCBA order also
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2023-10-05T10:57:10 < ventYl> that's entirely different topic
2023-10-05T10:57:27 < ventYl> that's why I am surprised by their response
2023-10-05T10:58:15 < ventYl> I know that if you order parts in bulk, they are usually shipped on tape, therefore possibility of human error shall be minimal
2023-10-05T11:00:59 < jpa-> unfortunately there is no real standard for the orientation
2023-10-05T11:01:30 < jpa-> so it gets setup per each assembly project separately
2023-10-05T11:03:03 < jpa-> the guy who called me is from "Aisler Amazing Assembly Success Team", maybe i'll order from them instead of the amazing failure team i selected previous time ;)
2023-10-05T11:07:52 < ventYl> :D
2023-10-05T11:08:22 < ventYl> and I assume that "this printed dot means upper left corner" is not a thing anymore
2023-10-05T11:09:32 < jpa-> part of the fault is with ST for making terrible package markings for STM32 in LQFP, but people have been getting hit by that for over a decade now so should know to check text orientation
2023-10-05T11:10:22 < jpa-> (and for STM32s, pin 1 is in lower left corner)
2023-10-05T11:12:00 < PaulFertser> APM32 in LQFP48 got it right, just one non-printed dot and it's at the right place.
2023-10-05T11:12:32 < jpa-> GD32 copied ST crap
2023-10-05T11:13:24 < PaulFertser> https://cdn.cnx-software.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/APM32F103-STM32F103-clone.jpg
2023-10-05T11:13:44 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/stm32_orientation.png   these chips offer choice of 3 different kinds of dots
2023-10-05T11:14:05 < zyp> only one wrong orientation :)
2023-10-05T11:14:06 < jpa-> i would rather just print the dot instead of molding it
2023-10-05T11:14:38 < zyp> and yeah, a lasered little triangle pointing at the corner would be more obvious
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2023-10-05T11:15:43 < jpa-> PaulFertser: STM32 in LQFP48 also has only one molded dot, i think it is the bigger packages that require more elaborate mold release
2023-10-05T11:16:10 < PaulFertser> Three dots, one triangle: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61NcmzxhTvL.__AC_SY300_SX300_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg
2023-10-05T11:16:11 < jpa-> of the chips i have here, LQFP48 has 1 dot, LQFP64 has two dots and LQFP144 has 3 dots
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2023-10-05T11:29:33 < jpa-> so, next bug to resolve: STM32F427 fails to connect over USB when the supply voltage rise time is too slow (40 ms for 0 V to 3.3 V).. report from the field so no idea of the firmware is stuck or just USB stuck, but it is not activating the D+ pull-up
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2023-10-05T11:33:34 < ventYl> well now, why 1+1 is 3?
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2023-10-05T11:36:03 < ventYl> also, I have two monitors of the same make and model, they both have different looking menu and slightly different picture
2023-10-05T11:39:00 < zyp> jpa-, datasheet only specifies a minimum rise time, no maximum
2023-10-05T11:40:50 < zyp> so it sounds like an indirect problem, rise time affecting other timing, trigging a race condition that trips up the code
2023-10-05T11:42:13 < zyp> IIRC I had a bug in clock setup before, resulting in a race against HSE startup
2023-10-05T11:43:06 < zyp> https://cgit.jvnv.net/laks/commit/rcc/rcc.cpp?id=2063457
2023-10-05T11:44:41 < zyp> usually it did one check, saw HSE weren't started yet and continued on, but sometimes HSE managed to start before the first check and then it got stuck in the loop
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2023-10-05T13:38:08 < jpa-> hmm, when VDD rise time is larger than 30 ms, the STM32 gets stuck early at startup, debugger shows $pc = 0xfffc56fa
2023-10-05T13:39:41 < jpa-> i have brown-out threshold at Vbor3 = 2.8V, so flash etc. should be fine at that point
2023-10-05T13:42:49 < zyp> boot0 too high, so that when Vdd is lower when it's checked, it's above the high threshold?
2023-10-05T13:44:44 < zyp> V_IH for boot0 is 0.17*VDD + 0.7
2023-10-05T13:45:46 < zyp> V_IL is 0.1*VDD + 0.1
2023-10-05T13:49:18 < zyp> hmm, I misread, I thought you said $pc = 0x1ffc56fa
2023-10-05T13:50:43 < zyp> in any case, I figure the boot0 check has to happen before reset is released, so it has time to remap 0x0
2023-10-05T13:51:15 < zyp> maybe dump the contents of 0x0 in the debugger, check whether it's aliased to flash or something else
2023-10-05T14:06:46 < jpa-> good idea.. flash shows all zeros both at 0x00000000 and 0x08000000
2023-10-05T14:07:28 < jpa-> SYSRESETREQ is not enough to recover
2023-10-05T14:08:15 < jpa-> NRST is not enough to recover either
2023-10-05T14:10:36 < jpa-> holding NRST low until VDD is fully high is not enough to avoid lockup
2023-10-05T14:11:36 < zyp> did you look at errata sheet already?
2023-10-05T14:17:41 < jpa-> yeah, but didn't spot anything relevant
2023-10-05T14:18:15 < jpa-> device is STM32F427VGT6 revision 3
2023-10-05T14:20:54 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/stm32_bootup_problem.png   i'm not exactly impressed by the internal NRST behavior, but i guess that doesn't matter when holding NRST down makes no difference
2023-10-05T14:29:00 < jpa-> looks like it never even gets to the start vector, so not related to flash / clock setups
2023-10-05T14:29:22 < jpa-> (tested by putting   while(1) asm("nop");  at the beginning of start vector)
2023-10-05T14:32:05 < jpa-> i did have this very similar problem a decade ago:   2013-02-13T13:24:47 < jpa-> hmph, looks like STM32F4 RTC resets itself if the fall time of Vdd is too slow on shut down
2023-10-05T14:32:26 < jpa-> even though the spec for both is that there is no upper limit on rise/fall time
2023-10-05T15:20:16 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/stm32_boot_fail_vs_ok.png
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2023-10-05T22:31:34 < englishman> beep mawk i have a practical math question for you
2023-10-05T22:31:46 < englishman> say i have two k=2 uncertainties 3% and 5%
2023-10-05T22:32:03 < englishman> and the two instruments measure values that are 4.5% apart
2023-10-05T22:32:15 < englishman> what is the probability that the measurement is within the uncertainty interval of both instruments
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2023-10-05T23:48:01 < Steffanx> Mawk is ignoring you for sure.
--- Day changed pe loka 06 2023
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2023-10-06T00:05:46 < Laurenceb_> suppp
2023-10-06T00:05:54  * Laurenceb_ discovered something interdasting
2023-10-06T00:06:15 < Laurenceb_> if you run a fixed point IIR filter with insufficient fractional bits you can get really weird behaviour
2023-10-06T00:06:29 < Laurenceb_> it starts to "rectify" certain types of input noise
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2023-10-06T01:07:50 < mawk> what
2023-10-06T01:08:02 < mawk> yes englishman 
2023-10-06T01:08:12 < mawk> what is your k
2023-10-06T01:08:38 < zyp> he said k=2
2023-10-06T01:08:40 < zyp> whatever that is
2023-10-06T01:08:43 < englishman> yes
2023-10-06T01:08:43 < mawk> you have two instruments with uncertainties 3% and 5% right?
2023-10-06T01:08:46 < englishman> yes
2023-10-06T01:09:06 < mawk> you multiply the two probabilities I suppose 
2023-10-06T01:09:51 < englishman> k=2 is the uncertainty interval (two standard deviations or ~95%)
2023-10-06T01:10:17 < mawk> ah
2023-10-06T01:11:59 < mawk> inside both intervals that are 2σ apart, then if the measurements are independent you just multiply the probabilities 
2023-10-06T01:12:11 < mawk> so 0.95²
2023-10-06T01:12:24 < mawk> so around 91%
2023-10-06T01:12:39 < mawk> 91
2023-10-06T01:12:47 < mawk> 91.11% for 2σ
2023-10-06T01:12:55 < qyx> did you read the whole question?
2023-10-06T01:13:15 < mawk> the measurements are independent 
2023-10-06T01:13:49 < mawk> so the actual value doesn't matter for the last question 
2023-10-06T01:14:08 < mawk> unless you want something like the bayesian estimate / conditional probability englishman 
2023-10-06T01:15:06 < englishman> i guess i misworded, the final line is better written as: what is the probability that the actual value is within the confidence interval of both instruments
2023-10-06T01:15:23 < mawk> but values 4.5% apart, that could be any value, do you have more information on that?
2023-10-06T01:15:36 < englishman> so it would be the area of confidence covered by both intervals
2023-10-06T01:16:04 < englishman> yes it could be any value. in this scenario the two instruments are measuring the same phenomenon but have different measured values
2023-10-06T01:16:25 < mawk> but we still need to know something about the value
2023-10-06T01:16:31 < mawk> is it 4.5% around the mean?
2023-10-06T01:16:43 < mawk> 4.5% apart could be anywhere on the interval
2023-10-06T01:16:44 < englishman> well in measurement we never know the true value
2023-10-06T01:16:58 < englishman> we only have our measurement and the confidence of that measurement
2023-10-06T01:17:06 < mawk> yeah
2023-10-06T01:17:31 < mawk> in general if you are composing uncertainties that's done using the partial derivatives of your composition function
2023-10-06T01:17:50 < mawk> for instance you could take the average of the two values and see where that lands
2023-10-06T01:19:06 < mawk> so you measured a value x and a value 1.045x? or 0.955x
2023-10-06T01:19:32 < englishman> right, one instrument measured x and the other x*1.045
2023-10-06T01:23:52 < mawk> I guess we can just find out the area of the zone where the value is in the interval
2023-10-06T01:24:28 < mawk> although without an average value I'm not sure how to compute it
2023-10-06T01:25:07 < mawk> a confidence interval is centered on an average, usually 
2023-10-06T01:25:12 < englishman> yes maybe i am missing some info
2023-10-06T01:25:34 < mawk> saying your instrument has uncertainty ±3% is one thing
2023-10-06T01:26:06 < mawk> but to get a confidence interval you need to have a target value you have an interval around 
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2023-10-06T01:28:49 < mawk> if you had more values you can do some statistics on them
2023-10-06T01:28:58 < mawk> like a two-sample t-test
2023-10-06T01:29:26 < mawk> or check the standard deviation of each set of samples to see if it agrees with the instrument
2023-10-06T01:29:53 < mawk> but without any data the best you can say is 91% like I said
2023-10-06T01:30:21 < mawk> I feel like we could use the difference in the measured values somehow but without a reference to an average I'm not sure
2023-10-06T01:30:48 < mawk> when you do confidence interval stuff it's proved for centered reduced normal laws
2023-10-06T01:31:10 < mawk> mean 0, standard deviation 1; and we do the computations with that
2023-10-06T01:32:00 < mawk> what we could try is see what is the uncertainty of the operation you did to get the relative value
2023-10-06T01:32:08 < mawk> which is y/x - 1
2023-10-06T01:32:24 < mawk> with x the 3% measurement and y the 5% measurement
2023-10-06T01:35:53 < mawk> so the partial derivatives are d_x = -y/x² and d_y = 1/x
2023-10-06T01:39:03 < mawk> so you compute √((∆x d_x/f)² + (∆y d_y/f)²)
2023-10-06T01:39:19 < mawk> that's the relative uncertainty 
2023-10-06T01:40:04 < mawk> with ∆x = 3%, ∆y = 5%
2023-10-06T01:40:17 < mawk> hmmm
2023-10-06T01:40:23 < mawk> in theory the x and y should disappear
2023-10-06T01:40:31 < mawk> since we're making it relative 
2023-10-06T01:42:24 < mawk> in a simpler example when we compute f(x, y) = xy, then the new relative uncertainty is √(∆x² + ∆y²)
2023-10-06T01:42:42 < mawk> very nice and simple
2023-10-06T01:42:53 < mawk> your function is slightly more complicated 
2023-10-06T01:43:07 < mawk> although we can simplify it to y/x I guess 
2023-10-06T01:47:14 < mawk> and it's the same result
2023-10-06T01:47:25 < mawk> the uncertainty is √(∆x² + ∆y²)
2023-10-06T01:47:58 < mawk> so the uncertainty on your relative measurement is 5.8%
2023-10-06T01:48:27 < mawk> and you measured 1
2023-10-06T01:48:30 < mawk> oops 
2023-10-06T01:48:47 < mawk> and you measured 1.045, so that's 1.045±5.8%
2023-10-06T01:52:27 < mawk> I'm not sure if we can say something better englishman 
2023-10-06T01:54:15 < mawk> you measured 1.045, and if we assume the average is 1 then that's between 0.9417 and 1.0583
2023-10-06T01:54:20 < mawk> for 1 standard deviation 
2023-10-06T01:54:44 < mawk> so your value is clearly in the interval
2023-10-06T01:55:34 < mawk> and for 2 standard deviations it should be [0.8834; 1.1166]
2023-10-06T01:55:47 < mawk> that's what you should measure for the ratio
2023-10-06T01:56:10 < mawk> and if we assume it to be a normal law then we can compute the exact probability actually 
2023-10-06T01:59:23 < mawk> sp the probability to pick a sample at least as good as yours was 56%
2023-10-06T01:59:28 < mawk> but that's not really a useful figure 
2023-10-06T02:02:43 < karlp> lolrence: surprise surprise, trying to do filters without the actual numbers results in bogus results!
2023-10-06T02:16:39 < qyx> karlp: have you ever used libubus?
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2023-10-06T05:55:36 < englishman> i don’t think the uncertainties add orthogonally though
2023-10-06T05:55:42 < englishman> anyway i’ll think about this more
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2023-10-06T09:08:00 < jpa-> zyp: i wonder if the "min. 20µs/V" in STM32 datasheets actually means that it has to rise faster than that
2023-10-06T09:09:15 < jpa-> though.. that would be weirdly tight requirement also
2023-10-06T09:09:59 < jpa-> 20µs/V with 10µF on 3.3V rail equals 500mA regulator output current, which kind of leads me to believe that a lot of applications may have faster rise time
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2023-10-06T09:30:42 < zyp> hmm, yeah
2023-10-06T09:30:58 < zyp> I've never really thought about it, never been an issue
2023-10-06T09:31:30 < jpa-> yeah, i've never had issue with too fast rise time; i have had issue with too slow fall time, and too slow rise time
2023-10-06T09:32:07 < jpa-> and i've always been reading that spec only when i had problems and thinking "well there is no way my rise time is too fast, and max is infinity"
2023-10-06T09:32:33 < zyp> I don't think I've even looked at the spec before
2023-10-06T09:33:10 < jpa-> some of the newer parts like STM32L451 have rise time min 0 µs/V max infinity
2023-10-06T09:33:27 < jpa-> *"rise time rate"
2023-10-06T09:34:44 < jpa-> so i guess that breaks down the theory of me reading the spec wrong
2023-10-06T09:35:36 < jpa-> because if you have to be faster than 20µs/V on STM32F4, there is no way you'd be faster than 0 µs/V on STM32L4 :)
2023-10-06T09:37:14 < zyp> just use a negative voltage
2023-10-06T09:37:48 < jpa-> i think i'll try to retrofit LDL1117S33, it has UVLO at 2.3V
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2023-10-06T12:32:19 < karlp> qyx: no, libubus and ubus in general and their introduction was where I started going "nope, too much NIH"  
2023-10-06T12:32:46 < karlp> it would be one thing if they were offering it up nicely for deskop linux, so you could easily use it for desktop development at least, but no.
2023-10-06T12:33:03 < karlp> I also disliked teh "pub/sub, but also rpc, and zero internal guidance on why or when to use either"
2023-10-06T12:33:16 < karlp> very very very NIH openwrt style.
2023-10-06T12:33:31 < qyx> wtf is nih
2023-10-06T12:33:32 < karlp> I also already had an mqtt broker on board for everything anyway, so I just used that
2023-10-06T12:33:34 < qyx> not invented here?
2023-10-06T12:33:35 < karlp> not invented hgere.
2023-10-06T12:33:47 < karlp> openwrt does a lot of "we built our own version of x, for... reasons!"
2023-10-06T12:34:03 < qyx> the reason I am considering ubus instead of mqtt is the auth part
2023-10-06T12:34:05 < karlp> some of that is appropriate and good, some of it is... just ...
2023-10-06T12:34:13 < qyx> I cannot do reasonable auth with mqtt ws
2023-10-06T12:34:29 < karlp> depends what sort of auth modelling you want, sure.
2023-10-06T12:34:42 < qyx> streaming data into the web UI
2023-10-06T12:34:43 < karlp> you can do a lot via ubus-js stuff instead though..
2023-10-06T12:35:04 < qyx> so, the same attitude to uci?
2023-10-06T12:35:06 < karlp> I never wrote libubus based stuff, but authing pages and things via ubus and the uhttpd stuff.
2023-10-06T12:35:08 < qyx> and libuci?
2023-10-06T12:35:15 < karlp> uci was fine, and we used libuci,
2023-10-06T12:35:41 < karlp> integrating well with uci meant things were behaving consistently, and made UIs "instant"
2023-10-06T12:35:51 < jpa-> https://github.com/apache/nuttx-apps/pull/2101   phew, finally went in after a bunch of rounds adding spaces and newlines :)
2023-10-06T12:35:53 < karlp> because you could use all the built in UI support for UCI
2023-10-06T12:36:11 < karlp> jpa-:nice!
2023-10-06T12:36:39 < qyx> karlp: I'll give ubus a go.. for a while at least
2023-10-06T12:36:45 < qyx> and see how it behaves
2023-10-06T12:36:50 < karlp> good luck.
2023-10-06T12:36:55 < karlp> hope you enjoy reading source.
2023-10-06T12:37:06 < jpa-> next i'll need to use the STM32 ethernet peripheral clock for nuttx main clock somehow, using PTP to sync 100Hz clock is not very high precision :D
2023-10-06T12:37:10 < qyx> yeah did that, not much reasonable docs
2023-10-06T12:54:06 < mawk> so englishman did you take more samples
2023-10-06T12:54:13 < mawk> what do you mean by add orthogonally
2023-10-06T12:54:18 < mawk> this is how the uncertainties compoes
2023-10-06T12:54:43 < mawk> it's a quadratic addition like this
2023-10-06T12:54:49 < mawk> it depends on the function of course
2023-10-06T12:55:30 < mawk> but if you have a function f(x, y) then the uncertainty due to x is the partial derivative at x of f, times the uncertainty of x
2023-10-06T12:55:32 < mawk> and so on
2023-10-06T12:55:43 < mawk> and the total uncertainty is the quadratic sum like I said
2023-10-06T12:55:49 < mawk> it's a classical result for normal laws
2023-10-06T12:57:42 < mawk> ∆f(x, y) = √((df/dx ∆x/f(x, y))² + (df/dy ∆y/f(x, y))²)
2023-10-06T12:57:58 < mawk> because the variances add up 
2023-10-06T12:58:07 < mawk> that's what this operation means
2023-10-06T12:58:24 < mawk> so it looks like a vector norm when you take the square root of course 
2023-10-06T13:02:17 < ventYl> thumbs up for being able to set equation into terminal without falling back to latex notation
2023-10-06T13:02:38 < mawk> lol
2023-10-06T13:14:20 < BrainDamage> mawk: pfff, you're not even using partial derivative sign properly ∂f/∂x
2023-10-06T13:19:24 < mawk> lol
2023-10-06T13:19:38 < mawk> I'm too lazy to search for it on google and copy it
2023-10-06T13:19:43 < mawk> I use what's on my android keyboard 
2023-10-06T13:20:05 < mawk> √π∆×·∞≠≈ μαυκ
2023-10-06T13:20:16 < mawk> πεεπεε
2023-10-06T13:24:47 < ventYl> does that stand for `heehee` or `peepee` ?
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2023-10-06T13:33:41 < mawk> peepee
2023-10-06T13:33:55 < mawk> π is **P**i
2023-10-06T13:35:02 < mawk> so englishman the TLDR is that the variances add up, V(X+Y) = V(X) + V(Y), and thus the standard deviations are like I said, √(σ_X² + σ_Y²)
2023-10-06T13:35:09 < mawk> that's why my formula is true
2023-10-06T13:35:46 < mawk> X and Y need to be independent 
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2023-10-06T14:40:21 < jadew> If you ever want to be on hold for a couple of hours, call google.
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2023-10-06T14:44:22 < jadew> first time I had to hang up after 40 minutes, afterwards they hang up after one hour, now I'm at the 1:20 mark and waiting to see if they'll pick up the phone before I have to go to dinner
2023-10-06T14:45:16 < jadew> oh, and the email address they give you, in case you can't reach them you know, it bounces back, says it doesn't exist
2023-10-06T14:47:32 < jadew> "In case you can't reach us by phone, you can continue to be unable to reach us by email: <>."
2023-10-06T14:49:18 < jadew> The first red flag was when I made the support request and it told me my ticket id was $CASE_ID
2023-10-06T15:22:36 < jadew> They hang up at exactly 2 hours...
2023-10-06T15:25:03 < jadew> At least the 7 seconds snippet of carnival music has stopped looping.
2023-10-06T15:26:08 < qyx> TIL ctrl+shift+enter in thunderbird
2023-10-06T15:26:26 < jadew> What does it do?
2023-10-06T15:30:18 < qyx> enqueues the message to be sent later
2023-10-06T15:30:32 < jadew> When is later?
2023-10-06T15:30:36 < qyx> it causes it to disappear without notice, not in Sent, not in Drafts
2023-10-06T15:30:42 < qyx> it will be hidden in te Outbox
2023-10-06T15:31:03 < jadew> So what do you have to do to actually send it?
2023-10-06T15:31:36 < qyx> that's !TIL
2023-10-06T15:31:39 < qyx> idk
2023-10-06T15:31:44 < jadew> lol
2023-10-06T15:32:09 < qyx> I pressed the combination by accident and it took me 10 minutes to find out what actually happened
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2023-10-06T17:07:04 < karlp> nice.  pressed shift-f6 to rename a python file in intellij, and it updated the .gitignore setting as well :)
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2023-10-06T17:15:43 < zyp> I recently hit ctrl-enter by accident in some mail client and it ended up sending the email I hadn't finished writing
2023-10-06T17:20:14 -!- hsv [~unknown@user/hsv] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2023-10-06T17:24:48 < mawk> yes ctrl-enter is the classical hotkey for send
2023-10-06T17:28:38 < qyx> yes ctrl+enter I know about
2023-10-06T17:28:51 < qyx> also shift+enter to do a newline without starting a new paragraph
2023-10-06T17:29:37 < qyx> and then there is ctrl+V for paste and shift+ctrl+V for paste without format
2023-10-06T17:30:31 < qyx> and now try to compose an email with some items, each one on a single line within a single paragraph and copying those lines from a web where they are marked as headings, so you have to paste without formatting
2023-10-06T17:31:24 < qyx> 5 minutes of this activity and you start pressing random shortcuts until it does what you are expecting
2023-10-06T17:31:27 < qyx> or not.
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2023-10-06T20:10:39 < zyp> mawk, yeah, the issue is that ctrl-enter is also the normal hotkey for newline in instant messengers
2023-10-06T20:11:01 < zyp> I think I had a brainfart and forgot I was typing an email and not a long IM
2023-10-06T20:13:43 < qyx> you forgot what is IM
2023-10-06T20:14:02 < zyp> :)
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2023-10-06T21:11:22 < qyx> also, related, for this and other reasons I fill in the email address as the last one
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2023-10-06T22:08:37 < antto> is it very difficult to add and use external RAM to a stm32h7xx?
2023-10-06T22:13:07 < antto> i'm supposedly making a board which is more like a module that could be used as a "base" for different projects, most of them would just need CPU power, some (few) usecases would need several megabytes (maybe 8 to 32MB is gonna be enough) RAM for data
2023-10-06T22:14:16 < antto> thus if it's not super difficult to put one on the board - i'd like to have it as an option and deal with it later (because that's not the main usecase of the board)
2023-10-06T22:14:49 < antto> any hints are welcome
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2023-10-06T22:25:19 < Laurenceb_> the absolute state of windozer
2023-10-06T22:25:23 < jpa-> antto: copy some ST dev board with sdram and it is easy
2023-10-06T22:25:30 < Laurenceb_> start menu has been broken for months
2023-10-06T22:25:39 < Laurenceb_> and teams and outlook wont load
2023-10-06T22:27:47 < specing> Laurenceb_: MS badly wants people to use Linux, but just can't say it
2023-10-06T22:27:54 < Laurenceb_> heh
2023-10-06T22:28:02 < Laurenceb_> this problem has been known for over a year
2023-10-06T22:28:08 < Laurenceb_> no proper fix from mocroshart
2023-10-06T22:28:23 < specing> meanwhile windows fans..... just ONE more $BADTHING and I will leave windows
2023-10-06T22:28:24 < Laurenceb_> something screwed in calendar manager
2023-10-06T22:28:38 < specing> fast forward N bad things ... still on windows
2023-10-06T22:29:10 < Laurenceb_> searchui doesnt seem to be running, but search menu still works
2023-10-06T22:29:11 < Laurenceb_> wtf
2023-10-06T22:29:49 < Laurenceb_> wait no lol
2023-10-06T22:29:52 < Laurenceb_> it just failed
2023-10-06T22:30:33 < nomorekaki> antto: first see if there is a ready made option
2023-10-06T22:30:45 < specing> Laurenceb_: just make a screenshot of desktop and set it as background, while killing explorer.exe. no difference to functionality xD
2023-10-06T22:30:50 < Laurenceb_> lol
2023-10-06T22:30:58 < Laurenceb_> this is weird
2023-10-06T22:31:06 < specing> Laurenceb_: we used to do that in highschool, much hilarious
2023-10-06T22:31:21 < Laurenceb_> search menu was working then graphics glitched and now its non functional, but searchui was already dead
2023-10-06T22:38:21 < Laurenceb_> https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/start-menu-unresponsive-and-outlook-teams/d7318ca6-5ebe-4bb3-87d9-9c6461d5d631
2023-10-06T22:38:25 < Laurenceb_> truly epic fail
2023-10-06T22:41:34 < Laurenceb_> oh shit wtf
2023-10-06T22:41:56 < Laurenceb_> somehow I have anydesk installed and running
2023-10-06T22:43:34 < Laurenceb_> this is a known source of calendar corruption
2023-10-06T22:45:56 -!- Linux_Kerio [~Linux_Ker@chello085216193138.chello.sk] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
2023-10-06T22:50:07 < Laurenceb_> "Delete the following registry key: HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer\FolderTypes\{ef87b4cb-f2ce-4785-8658-4ca6c63e38c6}\TopViews\{00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000}."
2023-10-06T22:50:26 < Laurenceb_> >Linux is weird and has hard to understand commands
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2023-10-06T23:05:24 < antto> jpa-, i did, found one with 2 different kinds of RAM, one is 2MB i think, the other is 32MB, but both are BGA, and... well.. BGA
2023-10-06T23:06:20 < antto> i started looking at RAM chips... there's so many and different kinds, i'm kinda lost
2023-10-06T23:09:11 < antto> * ehm, i didn't copy it, i looked at it
2023-10-06T23:10:54 < Laurenceb_> holy shit
2023-10-06T23:11:20 < Laurenceb_> SearchApp.exe : "The system detected an overrun of a stack-based buffer in this application"
2023-10-06T23:16:55 < antto> i also looked at the cubemx thing (FMC peripheral) to see if that's gonna help me figure out what to look for, but it didn't.. it doesn't even have SDRAM type, there's LCD, muxed NOR flash and muxed PSRAM
2023-10-06T23:19:22 < jpa-> antto: maybe steal  https://medium.com/@pjinwoo123/stm32h7-external-sdram-evaluation-board-cc72444898d8
2023-10-06T23:20:26 < jpa-> depending on what you need the RAM for, qspi RAM may be an option too - less pins to route, but you cannot write to it directly through memory address but need to use DMA
2023-10-06T23:21:02 < antto> the usage would most-likely be for audio delay-based effects
2023-10-06T23:21:37 < jpa-> sounds rather slow, so QSPI ram seems plenty
2023-10-06T23:22:19 < jpa-> something like APS6404
2023-10-06T23:22:38 < antto> so, circular audio buffers, a simple delay would just read a sample from buf[i], do some math on it, write a new value into buf[i], and then ++i and wait till the next audio sample
2023-10-06T23:23:12 < antto> but the more difficult one would be a reverb, where it'll read from several (moving) offsets in the circular buffer
2023-10-06T23:25:12 < antto> hm, the stuff i see in cubemx doesn't look like on the screenshot on that site
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2023-10-06T23:25:34 < antto> is it possible that the FMC periph is different on mine? (H723)
2023-10-06T23:26:41 < antto> or is it that the number of pins makes "SDRAM" unavailable (i went for a 100-pin chip)
2023-10-06T23:31:19 < jpa-> yeah, per datasheet sdram controller is only in >= 144 pin packages
2023-10-06T23:32:07 < antto> oh
2023-10-06T23:33:08 < antto> so do i get it right that the SDRAM gets like.. sorta.. mapped to the address space thing and the usage is "easy" ?
2023-10-06T23:33:17 < jpa-> yes
2023-10-06T23:33:54 < antto> like, you set a pointer to an address then just access buf[i] in it and the CPU figures out that this is the external SDRAM and does all the ugly things?
2023-10-06T23:34:50 < jpa-> i think you can get up to 32 MB of PSRAM on LQFP100 though
2023-10-06T23:35:08 < jpa-> antto: yes, though there will be some latency for read access (you can enable data cache for that)
2023-10-06T23:35:51 < antto> this makes it very tempting
2023-10-06T23:36:58 < antto> so the PSRAM is serial, sorta like SPI, thus it's gonna be slower
2023-10-06T23:37:21 < jpa-> no, FMC only supports parallel PSRAM
2023-10-06T23:37:31 < antto> oh
2023-10-06T23:37:45 < jpa-> but looks like all the big parallel PSRAM chips are BGA
2023-10-06T23:38:29 < antto> the APS6404 you mentioned seems serial
2023-10-06T23:39:08 < jpa-> yes, that one is serial PSRAM, and you'd connect it to quadspi instead of FMC, but then you get memory mapping only for read access
2023-10-06T23:40:16 < jpa-> for audio stuff that's probably fine though, you'll just have to code like   read_at_addr(1234);  instead of directly addressing an array
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--- Day changed la loka 07 2023
2023-10-07T00:09:43 < qyx> why not hyperbus dram?
2023-10-07T00:10:20 < qyx> H7 has hyperbus, you can get 8MB in low ball count.. well, BGAs
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2023-10-07T01:06:34 < zyp> hyperram is usually a 1mm pitch bga24, super easy to work with
2023-10-07T01:10:04 < zyp> and it's way easier to hook up 12 signals or so to a BGA hyperram than to hook up 30+ signals or whatever it is a parallel RAM would require no matter what package it's in
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2023-10-07T01:31:42 < qyx> so 4 new boards, let's guess the FPY
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2023-10-07T01:38:45 < qyx> oh all 4 boote
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2023-10-07T01:52:55 < qyx> https://libwebsockets.org/git/libwebsockets/tree/minimal-examples/embedded/esp32/esp-c3dev/lws-button.c
2023-10-07T01:52:58 < qyx> what the actual f
2023-10-07T01:53:08 < qyx> are they living in the past
2023-10-07T01:53:49 < qyx> static LWS_PLAT_TIMER_CB(lws_button_mon, th)
2023-10-07T01:54:01 < qyx> also, those line breaks
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2023-10-07T02:17:33 < karlp> yeah, lws jumped a shark, while riding a shark, some years ago.
2023-10-07T02:17:58 < karlp> so, I have an asyncio prometheus server bit running on micropython tonight :)
2023-10-07T02:19:02 < qyx> in what world a c library loads its configuration from a json in *runtime*
2023-10-07T02:19:18 < qyx> "prometheus server bit"?
2023-10-07T02:20:29 < karlp> so, like statsd blasts udp packets to a statsd server, 
2023-10-07T02:20:38 < karlp> so you have your app just blasting out udp packets for all metrics
2023-10-07T02:20:58 < qyx> zes but why is it called a server
2023-10-07T02:21:08 < karlp> prometheus is inverrted, and instead it just runs a webserver, and when the prometheus "central" server comes and asks you for metrics, you need to server up http on /metrics
2023-10-07T02:21:48 < karlp> so I made the "edge" bit of it tonight. forked this: https://github.com/ssube/prometheus_express and replaced the server bit with an asyncio one.
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2023-10-07T02:22:47 < qyx> is this the only mode of prometheus?
2023-10-07T02:22:51 < qyx> no "push"?
2023-10-07T02:23:03 < karlp> I believe they do now, but pull was the entire point.
2023-10-07T02:23:23 < machinehum> qyx: When using uart to connect two MCUs would you send a known amount of data and bang it into a struct, or define an ascii type thing and parse it out?
2023-10-07T02:23:35 < zyp> benefit of pull being the nodes are configless, or something?
2023-10-07T02:23:41 < qyx> (I am still not decided what to do when I migrate my shit from can-fd to 10base-t1l
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2023-10-07T02:23:54 < karlp> zyp: something somethign scaleability
2023-10-07T02:24:15 < zyp> scalability what?
2023-10-07T02:24:24 < karlp> I think it was also letting the people whoe _care_ about the metics decide how often to get them, rather than having to have edge devices blast at the max possible desired refresh rate.
2023-10-07T02:24:40 < zyp> yeah, that's part of configless
2023-10-07T02:24:48 < qyx> machinehum: I would define a protocol depending on the use case
2023-10-07T02:25:02 < qyx> karlp: that's not what you always want and that§s the reason I am asking
2023-10-07T02:25:18 < qyx> because if the end node produces a stream of data, pull is meaningless
2023-10-07T02:25:34 < zyp> machinehum, I'd probably do COBS framed data with whatever structure fits the application
2023-10-07T02:25:36 < qyx> (yes you can pull the whole buffer)
2023-10-07T02:26:17 < zyp> qyx, it's not, a pull model extends into a subscribe model
2023-10-07T02:26:30 < qyx> eg. end node can produce acceleration data at 10 Hz and you are not going to pull at that rate
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2023-10-07T02:26:56 < zyp> why not?
2023-10-07T02:27:40 < qyx> because for anything serious such capture is always push as the rate is driven by the data source
2023-10-07T02:27:53 < qyx> and not the other way around
2023-10-07T02:28:02 < zyp> pull: «hi, send me data», subscribe: «hi, send me data repeatedly»
2023-10-07T02:28:04 < karlp> yeah, this isn't remotely intended for that sort of rate of raw data.
2023-10-07T02:28:35 < zyp> you could even request a rate when you subscribe
2023-10-07T02:28:39 < qyx> also, I would differentiate a "metric" and a uhm "waveform source"
2023-10-07T02:28:46 < karlp> indeed...
2023-10-07T02:29:38 < zyp> they're the same thing really, just at different rates, which means there's some overlap in the middle
2023-10-07T02:30:01 < qyx> yes and no
2023-10-07T02:30:02 < karlp> curl is still taking 300ms to get a reply from me though, which seems kinda lame...
2023-10-07T02:30:13 < zyp> by the way, since we're on the topic of data collection
2023-10-07T02:30:28 < qyx> do you care about antialiasing when getting amount of free memory? no
2023-10-07T02:30:34 < qyx> but for accel data? most probably yes
2023-10-07T02:31:06 < machinehum> zyp: Yeah doing cobs
2023-10-07T02:31:10 < machinehum> qyx: Fair enough
2023-10-07T02:32:05 < zyp> I need some sort of tool to graph data from a custom source at kSPS-MSPS rates
2023-10-07T02:32:20 < karlp> kst2 for kSPS at least...
2023-10-07T02:32:37 < zyp> ah, yeah, that exists
2023-10-07T02:32:47 < qyx> gnuradio?
2023-10-07T02:32:51 < karlp> I've done it up to about 20k and it doesn't even blink, and I was doing it via damn text files.
2023-10-07T02:33:15 < karlp> and running for hours and hours with longggg files.
2023-10-07T02:33:54 < zyp> I basically want something like linuxcnc's halscope, except for faster data
2023-10-07T02:34:14 < qyx> idk what you wanna graph but scope/fft/waterfall view seems appropriate for a MSPS rate source
2023-10-07T02:34:50 < zyp> even with a 5kHz loop in linuxcnc, halscope isn't terribly useful when I'd like to see individual ADC samples and the ADC is two orders of magnitude faster
2023-10-07T02:35:10 < zyp> I wanna graph what's going on in my motor control thing
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2023-10-07T02:46:08 < zyp> hmm, actually, I could probably just throw the data into implot
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2023-10-07T03:10:14 < karlp> well, I've successfully added mqtt control and prom exporting of metrics for my halloween toy.
2023-10-07T03:10:29 < karlp> made absolutely _nil_ progress on actually making the motor move things to a known position though :)
2023-10-07T03:14:57 < zyp> hmm, maybe I should just throw micropython with mqtt on this relay board I picked up ages ago and haven't bothered writing a firmware for yet
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2023-10-07T09:43:01 < jpa-> qyx, antto: indeed - hyperbus is a reasonable option, i don't know why i always forget about OCTOSPI
2023-10-07T09:44:07 < jpa-> (probably because the only STM32H7 i've actually used has been STM32H743 which only has QUADSPI)
2023-10-07T09:44:20 < antto> i'm kinda lost still, so DRAM == "values are stored in capacitors, so it needs refreshing", SRAM == no caps, faster, more expensive
2023-10-07T09:44:51 < jpa-> hardware will handle the refreshing, so you don't need to care about that
2023-10-07T09:45:28 < antto> i went with H723, i primarily needed extremely fast speed (for mainly floating point calculations), was this a good choice?
2023-10-07T09:45:37 < jpa-> and in any case it's the interface latency which will make external RAM slow.. parallel SRAM will be very slightly faster than hyperbus PSRAM
2023-10-07T09:46:42 < antto> the H723 is 550MHz there are supposedly chips from NXP with "more MHz" and since very recently from gigadevices (but that's not in stock yet)
2023-10-07T09:46:44 < jpa-> it has OCTOSPI if you want to memorymap serial RAM, either the BGA hyperbus chips or possibly also the APS6404 would be supported
2023-10-07T09:48:20 < antto> i've no idea how i'll solder BGA, i've only soldered a pile of 0.5mm pitch QFNs at job with hotair and normal solder, and also with stencil, paste and oven
2023-10-07T09:48:31 < jpa-> the same way
2023-10-07T09:48:49 < jpa-> 1mm BGA is pretty easy, just slap it on and reflow
2023-10-07T09:49:09 < jpa-> STM32H7 is one of the most complex STM32 series around, so you may have a bit of a learning curve on the software side of things
2023-10-07T09:50:06 < jpa-> i'm not sure whether cubemx will be of help or just confusing, like it usually is.. in any case you'll get pretty familiar with the 3000 pages of refman
2023-10-07T09:50:15 < antto> but the QFN is simple, i put solder on its thermal pad, then i flip it over, put fancy (synthetic) flux on the board, then put the QFN with the bulgy solder blob onto the position in the flux, then i heat with the hotair
2023-10-07T09:51:03 < jpa-> BGA already comes with solderballs, so just put a bit of flux on PCB, flip it on and heat
2023-10-07T09:51:20 < jpa-> as long as you get it close, it will self-align
2023-10-07T09:51:31 < antto> eventually it melts and starts to sit down, in the mean time i have tweezers or something in the other hand and i press it down - it spews out the excess solder and then i know the thermal pad is soldered.. i finish up the soldering with the iron and i'm 100% sure it's soldered - i can see all the side pins and i know the thermal is soldered
2023-10-07T09:52:01 < jpa-> no need to press with tweezers for BGA (though generally no need with QFN either, unless you apply too much solder)
2023-10-07T09:52:20 < antto> yes, i put a lot of solder on purpose
2023-10-07T09:52:26 < jpa-> why?
2023-10-07T09:52:38 < antto> sometimes i manage to even get all the small pins soldered ;P~
2023-10-07T09:53:11 < antto> in any case - it works and it can be visually inspected
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2023-10-07T09:53:24 < antto> for BGA i wouldn't know ;P~
2023-10-07T09:55:59 < antto> so anyway... i'm hoping to be able to take advantage of allpcb's "$1 prototype" which covers 4-layer boards and there's even PCBA option for up to 300 solder joints, so perhaps BGA RAM might be doable if i can get them to solder the chips on 5 boards, i'll solder everything else myself afterwards
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2023-10-07T09:59:14 < antto> so you say, even with the APS6404 which is OctoSPI - the usage is "easy" like it gets mapped to the address space and read/write is as if it's in the internal RAM?
2023-10-07T10:00:07 < jpa-> yes, on STM32H723 it should work that way
2023-10-07T10:00:31 < jpa-> i haven't used it but based on datasheet the OCTOSPI peripheral supports both read & write
2023-10-07T10:03:22 < jpa-> it's wonderfully confusing because even the STM32H743 QUADSPI has 8-bit mode but only supports read-only for memory mapping, while the STM32H723 OCTOSPI can do r&w memory mapping for 1/2/4/8-bit memories
2023-10-07T10:03:45 < jpa-> so it is important to distinguish between octospi/quadspi as the bus format, vs. the peripherals that are present on each STM32H7 variant
2023-10-07T10:04:28 < antto> hm
2023-10-07T10:06:06 < antto> you mean i should watch out about the memory chip, whether it's quad or octal SPI?
2023-10-07T10:06:11 < jpa-> no
2023-10-07T10:06:38 < antto> the periph of the MCU?
2023-10-07T10:06:42 < jpa-> i mean the opposite, you can pick whatever width memory chip (it will affect transfer speed though), but watch out that the STM32 has OCTOSPI peripheral
2023-10-07T10:07:19 < jpa-> the hyperbus frame format is standard so that at least will work, but probably other PSRAM chips will also work if you configure the peripheral correctly
2023-10-07T10:08:22 < antto> i tried my best to select a fast MCU with least amount of unrelevant things (CANs, cameras, what not), i was also told to pick a chip with *internal* flash because that's supposedly the fastest way, so i chose H723
2023-10-07T10:08:33 < antto> ..and i didn't plan to change it
2023-10-07T10:08:42 < jpa-> if you go for the highest speeds, you'll want to match the PCB lengths of the signals to within 10 mm or so
2023-10-07T10:09:17 < jpa-> is this your first STM32 project?
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2023-10-07T10:09:26 < antto> yes x_x
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2023-10-07T10:09:39 < antto> it'll fail, won't it
2023-10-07T10:09:43 < jpa-> you will have a very steep learning curve to start with STM32H723
2023-10-07T10:10:07 < jpa-> whether it will fail just depends on how good you are at learning, but it is a complex microcontroller
2023-10-07T10:10:37 < antto> i tried to do this with SAME54 but even overclocked to 200MHz it was barely fast enough to run my thing at half the sampling rate i wanted
2023-10-07T10:11:31 < antto> so i figured i need MUCH more MHz, like at least 400MHz equivalent, but for a safer bet i'd like to get the fastest chip
2023-10-07T10:12:38 < antto> i looked at NXP first but their config tools and their website sh*t is confusing and unfriendly, then i found gigadevices but those chips haven't been made yet, so.. STM32
2023-10-07T10:15:09 < antto> so, a PSRAM with hyperbus should be the easiest option to use, next up is octospi RAM but i gotta carefully inspect the details
2023-10-07T10:42:30 < antto> hm, in addition to everything, RAM chips come with all kinds of operating voltages too, one more thing to watch out for
2023-10-07T10:47:24 < Steffanx> PaulFertser: wow just read the news.... Hope you're all safe there...
2023-10-07T10:51:00 < antto> what news, where's he? what happened?
2023-10-07T10:55:53 < Steffanx> Israel.
2023-10-07T10:56:46 < antto> o_O
2023-10-07T10:58:32 < PaulFertser> Steffanx: not all are safe here but the majority is. Thank you.
2023-10-07T10:59:17 < PaulFertser> It's not that fun to be woken up at 6:30 and have to go to the "protected room" downstairs every now and then.
2023-10-07T11:04:43 < PaulFertser> I'm far enough from Gaza so not worried much for now.
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2023-10-07T11:49:14 < antto> meh, i guess, if a RAM chip works on 1.8V and i can't or don't want to run the whole MCU on 1.8V too - thinking about level shifters is not gonna cut it, fancySPI and/or hyperbus seems complex for that kind of thing, right?
2023-10-07T11:49:32 < antto> i should find a chip with compatible voltage level
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2023-10-07T13:20:52 < jpa-> antto: i'd go with the MX25LM51245GXDI that is used on STM32L552E-EVAL, you can imitate the same for STM32H723; AN5050 is also worth a read
2023-10-07T13:21:21 < jpa-> err that's the flash chip
2023-10-07T13:22:34 < antto> i'm still looking
2023-10-07T13:23:36 < antto> i think i sorta get what you're saying about watching out for the details.. i just checked the gigadevices H7xx MCU and it only supports memory-mapped reading (in the use-case of using external flash for executing from it)
2023-10-07T13:23:54 < jpa-> IS66WVH8M8BLL  is the ram they use on STM32L552E-EVAL
2023-10-07T13:27:40 < antto> well, i think 20 seconds stereo delay at 48kHz should fit under 8MB
2023-10-07T13:28:00 < antto> that's with 32bit float samples
2023-10-07T13:29:15 < jpa-> it has big brother IS66WVH16M8BLL
2023-10-07T13:39:43 < antto> if the pinouts/features/footprint is the same then wonderful
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2023-10-07T14:57:36 < antto> huh, so for 0.4mm... ballz, the pcb pads should be 0.3mm?
2023-10-07T15:06:06 < qyx> go to the footprint section of the datasheet and check the recommended land pattern
2023-10-07T15:06:59 < qyx> and as zyp said, 1 mm pitch BGA memory chips (bga24/25) are very easy to solder
2023-10-07T15:08:39 < qyx> and for big BGAs you can use preheat+hotair, oven, ow melting point solder+hotair or an oxuacetylene torch which always works
2023-10-07T15:08:57 < qyx> you get it soldered down literally
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2023-10-07T15:17:35 < antto> no recommended footprint in the datasheet but i already made one, i used 0.3mm pads *shrug*
2023-10-07T15:33:10 < jbo> jpa-, is sweden considered better than finnland?
2023-10-07T15:43:36 < jpa-> jbo: not anymore, now sweden is a lost to gangs and swedes will seek refuge from finland
2023-10-07T15:44:00 < jpa-> and then we will have swedegangs making a mess and finns will have to migrate to norway
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2023-10-07T15:49:12 < qyx>  oh yeah I heard about that a couple of days ago, what's even happening?
2023-10-07T15:49:26 < qyx> are they in albania mode now?
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2023-10-07T15:49:54 < specing> how long before they get their own Kosovo
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2023-10-07T16:02:24 < jbo> jpa-, so basically switzerland situation all over again
2023-10-07T16:02:55 < jpa-> switzerland has a gang problem?
2023-10-07T16:05:17 < qyx> I can say we have that too althouh those 2023 "gangs" are hign level ones, usually dressed as politicians
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2023-10-07T16:35:14 < jpa-> well at least they have some point in their action, redirecting government funds to your own pockets makes much more sense than shooting teenagers for some disagreement about games/girlfriends
2023-10-07T16:35:38 < jpa-> (though i guess most of the gang fights are about drug money)
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2023-10-07T17:23:18 < Steffanx> jbo is the gang.. 
2023-10-07T17:27:49 < nomorekaki> I should establish a moped gang
2023-10-07T17:29:52 < specing> better yet, an electric bicycle assault brigade
2023-10-07T17:30:39 < specing> jpa-: 1) make drugs illegal 2) be the only distributor 3) ... 4) profit!
2023-10-07T17:31:32 < nomorekaki> specing: electric scooter gang
2023-10-07T17:46:36 < nomorekaki> dealing vapes at the corner
2023-10-07T17:53:55 < qyx> I read dielectric
2023-10-07T18:00:18 < nomorekaki> PaulFertser: ping
2023-10-07T18:02:03 < nomorekaki> Israel removes Gaza soon?
2023-10-07T18:03:00 < specing> not yet, west must put on blindfolds first
2023-10-07T18:08:06 < PaulFertser> nomorekaki: pong
2023-10-07T18:08:53 < PaulFertser> specing: you think Israel wouldn't like Egypt to just integrate Gaza?
2023-10-07T18:18:28 < specing> PaulFertser: they would like Egypt to integrate everyone living there, not Gaza itself
2023-10-07T18:19:33 < PaulFertser> specing: Gaza is currently only giving troubles. This land is not worth it. And anyway Israel can't use it anyhow since the disengagement.
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2023-10-07T18:23:17 < qyx> do I understand it correctly it is a desert land without anything specific?
2023-10-07T18:25:03 < PaulFertser> It's not like Sahara sand desert, some agriculture is possible.
2023-10-07T18:25:43 < qyx> hm yeah I see some trees
2023-10-07T18:36:59 < nomorekaki> It's Vlad's birthday btw.
2023-10-07T18:50:23 < Steffanx> When is yours nomorekaki?
2023-10-07T18:50:43 < nomorekaki> not today
2023-10-07T18:59:31 < Steffanx> Ok I'll ask every day :)
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2023-10-07T19:58:20 < antto> jpa-, huh, should i be setting up the hyperbus psram with the FMC or the octospi periph?! at least in cubemx
2023-10-07T19:59:41 < jpa-> octospi, i think
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2023-10-07T20:14:26 < qyx> octospi
2023-10-07T20:15:04 < jpa-> octoqyx
2023-10-07T20:16:35 < antto> i'm failing to get a nice pinout with both the octospi and a pile of ADC1 inputs, neither with the 144pin nor with the 100pin chip
2023-10-07T20:16:53 < antto> maybe i should leave ADC crap to an additional MCU
2023-10-07T20:17:25 < antto> thus i think i'll go back to the 100pin chip
2023-10-07T20:17:37 < jpa-> does it have to be ADC1?
2023-10-07T20:17:44 < antto> i don't know..
2023-10-07T20:21:34 < jpa-> it probably doesn't, if you don't know a reason why it would
2023-10-07T20:22:27 < jpa-> you can distribute your inputs over multiple ADCs
2023-10-07T20:22:28 < antto> i am just trying to limit the amount of peripheral instances engaged, ADC1 seemed to have the most possible channels..
2023-10-07T20:24:37 < jpa-> looking at pinout diagram, using ADC2 and ADC3 will give you a few more channels
2023-10-07T20:29:19 < jpa-> though if you are doing audio stuff, i'd recommend an audio codec on I2S instead of using STM32's internal ADC (or especially internal DAC)
2023-10-07T20:29:56 < antto> nah nah, i'm using a very fancy codec from AKM with the SAI periph
2023-10-07T20:30:06 < jpa-> ok
2023-10-07T20:30:13 < antto> it's audiophool-grade even
2023-10-07T20:30:15 < jpa-> so the analog stuff is for something else?
2023-10-07T20:30:29 < antto> scanning a pile of potentiometers
2023-10-07T20:30:37 < antto> as parameters
2023-10-07T20:30:45 < jpa-> just stick a bunch of I2C or SPI-bus ADC converters on it
2023-10-07T20:30:50 < jpa-> no need to put separate microcontroller
2023-10-07T20:31:55 < antto> i may need to put a sepparate MCU already because there should be a whole other digital section with basically a hardware UI (a pile of buttons, leds, blahblah, maybe a display of some sort)
2023-10-07T20:32:36 < jpa-> maybe, if you really want to - but often two firmwares with two sets of bugs quadruples the amount of problems in development
2023-10-07T20:33:02 < antto> but that will not be on this board, this is the "base" board that just has "uber fast MCU with audio" and all interesting things going to headers
2023-10-07T20:33:02 < jpa-> there is a good availability of I2C chips for all kinds of purposes
2023-10-07T20:33:51 < antto> i'm an SPI fanboi, i know nothing about I2C and i'm not looking forward to it (unfortunately the fancy audio codec requires I2C for config, there's no other option)
2023-10-07T20:34:10 < BrainDamage> i2c? not i2s?
2023-10-07T20:34:11 < jpa-> you can even just put a seeed i2c grove connector on it to make it easy to prototype your interface
2023-10-07T20:34:25 < antto> I2C for configuring the modes and registers
2023-10-07T20:34:30 < antto> I2S for the serial audio
2023-10-07T20:34:33 < jpa-> BrainDamage: it's pretty common to have i2s for audio data and i2c for registers like volume
2023-10-07T20:34:58 < BrainDamage> ah, wasn't thinking of the control channel, nvm
2023-10-07T20:35:07 < zyp> jpa-, isn't grove kinda outdated? I like the qwiic/stemma qt style instead
2023-10-07T20:35:30 < jpa-> zyp: hmm i guess so, i think i actually meant qwiic and just mixed them up
2023-10-07T20:36:38 < jpa-> IIRC they are same pinout but maybe different connector?
2023-10-07T20:36:56 < zyp> not sure about the pinout, qwiic/stemma qt is jst-sh
2023-10-07T20:36:59 < zyp> grove is larger
2023-10-07T20:37:21 < jpa-> yeah, and looks like grove wasn't necessarily just i2c
2023-10-07T20:37:27 < jpa-> qwiic is what i was thinking of
2023-10-07T20:37:28 < zyp> indeed
2023-10-07T20:37:46 < zyp> I've made a few boards with it
2023-10-07T20:38:12 < jpa-> but in any case, i2c is nice for such stuff where you don't yet know what you are going to put on it; SPI takes a big bunch of chip select lines
2023-10-07T20:38:46 < jpa-> (of course assuming bandwidth is enough, but for user interface it pretty much always is, with the exception of large displays)
2023-10-07T20:38:57 < antto> the other thing i need was a fast way for the two MCUs to talk to each other, so i'm thinking of either SPI or I2S (as exotic as this might seem)
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2023-10-07T20:39:22 < zyp> if they're highend MCUs, use rmii
2023-10-07T20:39:28 < antto> o_O
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2023-10-07T20:39:39 < jpa-> for communicating between two microcontrollers, UART is often the easiest because each side can send when they want to
2023-10-07T20:40:03 < antto> yes, but i would've wanted sync usart, and the ST can't quite do it
2023-10-07T20:40:08 < jpa-> why sync?
2023-10-07T20:40:17 < antto> so i went for SPI but i might add I2S too
2023-10-07T20:40:33 < antto> because i can boost the bitrate a lot and not ever have a broken byte
2023-10-07T20:41:00 < jpa-> i'm not so sure about that
2023-10-07T20:41:02 < antto> but it's out of question with ST
2023-10-07T20:41:30 < jpa-> what's wrong with STM32 USART sync mode?
2023-10-07T20:42:17 < antto> it's everything else but not a USART sync mode, it's more like some SPI master mode
2023-10-07T20:42:32 < antto> you can't use it to make two STMs talk to each other
2023-10-07T20:43:04 < antto> it only transmits clocks during the data bits, not during the char frame, and not during idle
2023-10-07T20:43:24 < antto> so... the slave can't talk, just like with SPI...
2023-10-07T20:44:46 < jpa-> ah, so you'd want the microchip-style usart sync mode instead
2023-10-07T20:45:05 < antto> it's proper-style usart
2023-10-07T20:45:42 < jpa-> async data doesn't just break randomly either, and noise on the sync interface clock line will cause just as much damage as noise on the async data line
2023-10-07T20:46:25 < antto> haven't had broken bytes in years with hundreds of devices with these sync usarts
2023-10-07T20:46:55 < zyp> I haven't had it with async uarts either :)
2023-10-07T20:47:04 < antto> i've had
2023-10-07T20:47:09 < jpa-> if you want continuous clock, can't you just put it out from a timer and run both STM32 USARTs in synchronous slave mode?
2023-10-07T20:47:23 < antto> they do NOT have slave mode
2023-10-07T20:47:37 < antto> this is why the S in uSart is fake
2023-10-07T20:47:40 < jpa-> "The synchronous slave mode is selected by programming the SLVEN bit in the"   oh.. why do they then put this bit there? :D
2023-10-07T20:47:50 < antto> it's really a UART with some weird spi-like Master mode
2023-10-07T20:48:18 < jpa-> though i agree i haven't used it
2023-10-07T20:48:27 < jpa-> it may very well be weird, ST does have weird stuff also
2023-10-07T20:49:47 < jpa-> the diagrams do suggest it for some reason uses start bits only in sync master mode, and not in sync slave mode; i agree that that seems weird
2023-10-07T20:50:14 < antto> it's SPI really
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2023-10-07T20:50:54 < antto> if it at least could be driven with real sync USART i could use it with a SAM chip which would be master
2023-10-07T20:51:17 < qyx> real sync usart?
2023-10-07T20:51:24 < qyx> let's google it
2023-10-07T20:51:50 < jpa-> will the real sync usart please stand up?
2023-10-07T20:52:34 < qyx> why would you even want continuous clock?
2023-10-07T20:52:42 < jpa-> looking into this a bit more, i tend to agree with antto; STM32 sync usart mode is indeed weirdly limited
2023-10-07T20:52:53 < jpa-> qyx: so that either side can transmit when they want
2023-10-07T20:53:08 < jpa-> and the start bit would tell the receiving side that data is coming
2023-10-07T20:53:26 < qyx> is there a start bit in sync uart?
2023-10-07T20:53:42 < jpa-> in microchip-style sync usart there is, and apparently also in STM32 sync usart master mode
2023-10-07T20:53:58 < antto> sync USART is just like UART except the receiver doesn't have to guess the clock (and reconstruct it internally), it just receives a clock from the master, so it's all simple
2023-10-07T20:54:22 < antto> so you still have N data bits surrounded by start/stop bits and all your typical jazz
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2023-10-07T20:55:00 < qyx> what a weird mode
2023-10-07T20:55:17 < qyx> never ever bothered to find out what sync uart is
2023-10-07T20:55:30 < antto> the receiver then can just sample "on the clock" and not really a strong need to oversample (altho that's still not bad)
2023-10-07T20:55:54 < antto> it's like SPI but both sides can talk simultaneously whenever they want
2023-10-07T20:56:04 < antto> no chip select
2023-10-07T20:56:36 < antto> the master generates the clock and decides the frequency
2023-10-07T20:57:02 < antto> the slave doesn't have to know the frequency at all
2023-10-07T20:57:04 < qyx> STM32H743VIH6 STOCK ABOVE 1: 5503
2023-10-07T20:57:05 < qyx> \o/
2023-10-07T20:59:59 < antto> they have an illustration showing how you could use their sync usart, and it's shown in Master mode, connected to a "slave SPI" chip, basically this is a sketchy way to use a UART periph to drive SPI slaves with a bit of overhead if you don't mind
2023-10-07T21:00:23 < antto> great if you run out of true SPIs and have plenty of USARTs
2023-10-07T21:03:57 < jpa-> i wish ST will copy RP2040 PIO soon; then adding things like this would be just a few lines of code away
2023-10-07T21:08:39 < zyp> antto, my async uart is faster than your sync uart!
2023-10-07T21:09:14 < qyx> jpa-: a generic fpga peripheral mappable on gpio would be great
2023-10-07T21:09:26 < qyx> without fancy languages and compilers
2023-10-07T21:09:40 < qyx> just a couple of LUTs and things
2023-10-07T21:09:48 < qyx> configurable by registers
2023-10-07T21:09:56 < jpa-> no, that's not nearly as useful
2023-10-07T21:10:13 < jpa-> some microchip PICs have that, but i haven't found much use for the simple combinatorial LUTs
2023-10-07T21:10:24 < qyx> no?
2023-10-07T21:10:26 < zyp> that's like half a greenpak
2023-10-07T21:10:31 < mawk> englishman ???
2023-10-07T21:10:35 < jpa-> yeah, it's like a greenpak, just as useless :)
2023-10-07T21:10:36 < zyp> and it's the other half that makes greenpak useful
2023-10-07T21:10:49 < jpa-> whereas RP2040 PIO can do e.g. 20MB/s SDIO interface just fine
2023-10-07T21:10:49 < qyx> so add the other half as well
2023-10-07T21:10:54 < qyx> and then some additional halves
2023-10-07T21:12:22 < jpa-> RP2040 PIO is also a lot more pleasant to program than greenpak, and greenpaks already have a fancy tool for that; a microchip-style "just write the regs" LUT thing would be total pain for a complex design
2023-10-07T21:13:14 < zyp> meanwhile, I just want a full proper fpga
2023-10-07T21:13:56 < qyx> jpa-: just integrate it into the cubez!
2023-10-07T21:14:08 < jpa-> (RP2040 PIO can be programmed by just registers though, there is C header for that so you'd write     pio0->instr[0] = pio_input(1234, ...);   style rows of code)
2023-10-07T21:14:09 < qyx> no need to create a simple tool for that
2023-10-07T21:15:00 < zyp> I wish there were some decent mcu+fpga hybrids
2023-10-07T21:15:42 < zyp> there's the smartfusion which seems complicated, expensive and annoying, and then there's the quicklogic stuff where the fabric seems a bit too small and limited to be useful
2023-10-07T21:15:47 < jpa-> problem with that is how decent it has to be.. e.g. ICE40 is pretty nice, but as far as FPGAs go it is still slow and small
2023-10-07T21:16:27 < zyp> yeah
2023-10-07T21:18:02 < zyp> I don't really get why people choose ice40 over ecp5, as far as I've seen there doesn't seem to be a big price benefit in doing so
2023-10-07T21:18:21 < jpa-> i think PIO-style state machines would really have a lot of use; STM32 FMAC would be of more use if it had a small state machine program to control it
2023-10-07T21:18:26 < zyp> suspect BGA intimidation is the biggest reason
2023-10-07T21:19:07 < jpa-> in the last project where i used ICE40, the reason was availability
2023-10-07T21:19:40 < catphish> would love to see PIO in STM32, it's really very useful, but probably only for a small set of applications
2023-10-07T21:19:42 < jpa-> still looks like cheap ECP5's are out of stock
2023-10-07T21:20:22 < catphish> i used it in the RP2040 to implement a custom UART protocol, but would have much preferred to use a stm32
2023-10-07T21:20:26 < zyp> https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/Programmable-Logic-Device-CPLDs-FPGAs_Lattice-LFE5U-25F-6BG256I_C5272996.html
2023-10-07T21:21:13 < jpa-> whopping 92
2023-10-07T21:21:21 < zyp> I'm waiting for the lattice nexus parts to get more availability
2023-10-07T21:21:36 < zyp> and then they just announced lifcl-33u the other day
2023-10-07T21:21:50 < jpa-> though looks like lcsc has poor availability in general
2023-10-07T21:21:58 < zyp> with built in usb2 and usb3 PHYs
2023-10-07T21:22:15 < zyp> I think somebody said they glued a dwc3 to the fabric
2023-10-07T21:22:43 < zyp> which I find pretty interesting
2023-10-07T21:22:49 < jpa-> https://www.digikey.fi/en/products/detail/lattice-semiconductor-corporation/ICE5LP1K-SG48ITR/5324261   used this.. was really surprised how slow it is, even though i had been surprised a decade earlier by ICE65 being ridicuously slow after being used to Cyclone II
2023-10-07T21:23:01 < zyp> :)
2023-10-07T21:23:52 < zyp> hmm, I haven't tested my inverse dq0 implementation yet, beyond checking the output values
2023-10-07T21:26:55 < zyp> I'm curious how much better it'll perform when I don't have to run it through the linuxcnc loop
2023-10-07T21:27:48 < jpa-> remember to have a watchdog so that if your closed loop hangs up, the motor doesn't just keep spinning for ever
2023-10-07T21:28:06 < zyp> :)
2023-10-07T21:29:15 < zyp> how fast do you think it makes sense to run the inverse dq0 stuff?
2023-10-07T22:04:09 < zyp> huh, this actually behaves worse than linuxcnc
2023-10-07T22:05:11 < zyp> input current looks nasty: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/1EGcT.png
2023-10-07T22:05:43 < zyp> seems to be putting a few watts into the switches
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2023-10-07T22:56:00 < jpa-> zyp: i think 30 times per (electrical) rotation will be as good as it will get.. wouldn't go lower than 12 times per rotation at max rpm
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2023-10-07T23:26:41 < zyp> hmm, so for a four pole motor at 4000rpm, that's 4000/60*4*30=8kHz
2023-10-07T23:26:56 < zyp> which happens to be the update rate of the fanuc encoders
2023-10-07T23:27:00 < zyp> four pole pair*
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2023-10-07T23:39:28 < antto> Q: 2.54mm pin headers for sending fancy signals like I2S or so between boards - would you?
2023-10-07T23:43:45 < zyp> «fancy» «i2s»
2023-10-07T23:43:46 < zyp> heh
2023-10-07T23:44:33 < antto> or SPI
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2023-10-07T23:48:21 < antto> well, i made most of the pins on the 100pin chip green
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--- Day changed su loka 08 2023
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2023-10-08T01:28:47 < antto> so.. cubemx.. i have a bunch of red (pink?) periphs with a "no good" icon, but i don't use them, a bunch of green ones with an "okay" icon, and some green ones with a "!" icon
2023-10-08T01:30:54 < antto> like the octospi, it's saying "Hyperbus 1.8V inverted clock conflicts with SPI2 NSS" afaiu, the PSRAM in 3V variant doesn't have the inverted clock, so it's disabled in the octoSPI
2023-10-08T01:31:01 < antto> should i be worried?
2023-10-08T01:39:17 < qyx> so change the octospi conf to not have it
2023-10-08T01:40:11 < antto> well it doesn't, it wouldn't let me even select anything other than "Disabled" for the inverted 1.8V clock thing
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2023-10-08T02:14:52 < zyp> jpa-, I went to bed and was thinking about why the new code would behave worse than linuxcnc, and then it hit me that I forgot to check the valid signal on the current target output from that block before feeding it to the DTC comparisons
2023-10-08T02:15:15 < zyp> so it was doing switching based on intermediate data…
2023-10-08T02:15:28 < zyp> fixed that and now it's behaving pretty great
2023-10-08T02:16:20 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/EtK5c.png
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2023-10-08T15:44:40  * Laurenceb_ is getting confused by transformer saturation calculations
2023-10-08T15:45:12 < Laurenceb_> peak flux in Weber is V_peak/(2*pi*f)  right?
2023-10-08T15:45:36 < Laurenceb_> and for a DC current its I*L , where L is the winding inductance
2023-10-08T15:46:18 < Laurenceb_> but to look at saturation, do I have to consider the current in the output winding, especially in a transformer where the primary and secondary are wound over each other?
2023-10-08T15:51:39 < Laurenceb_> gah
2023-10-08T15:51:41 < Laurenceb_> https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/633344/dc-saturation-current-of-a-power-transformer-of-a-given-va-rating
2023-10-08T15:51:58 < Laurenceb_> maybe I dont have enough info to solve this for my off the shelf transformer
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2023-10-08T18:43:17 < antto> i hope it works... https://i.imgur.com/9zjbO3s.png
2023-10-08T18:49:34 < jpa-> what's with the resistors?
2023-10-08T18:50:29 < antto> well, the in the main use case i won't need this RAM, but i might need the ADC inputs (and many of the OCTOSPI signals are on ADC inputs)
2023-10-08T18:50:41 < jpa-> ah
2023-10-08T18:51:23 < antto> the pin signal goes to the resistor, and also to the RAM, but thru the resistor in the "ADC" usecase
2023-10-08T18:52:00 < jpa-> yeah, makes sense
2023-10-08T18:52:09 < antto> if i put the RAM - i won't put the resistors, then i my idea was to not make a whole pile of other "copper" oscilate with the OCTOSPI signals
2023-10-08T18:52:19 < jpa-> is this 4 layer PCB?
2023-10-08T18:52:32 < antto> yes, but i f*cked up
2023-10-08T18:53:00 < antto> there's no $1 prototype promo at allpcb, it's just for brand-new users
2023-10-08T18:53:35 < jpa-> the ground return path may be somewhat funny if you route on top & inner1, though i guess for a short distance like that it won't be so critical
2023-10-08T18:53:57 < antto> what do you mean?
2023-10-08T18:54:31 < jpa-> any current that goes through your traces to the RAM has to return to the STM32 decoupling caps through some ground plane
2023-10-08T18:54:32 < antto> the octospi signals are on front and back, not on inner layers
2023-10-08T18:54:39 < jpa-> ah, ok, that seems good
2023-10-08T18:54:55 < jpa-> the color looked like the In1.Cu color
2023-10-08T18:55:08 < jpa-> i assume In1 and In2 are ground planes then?
2023-10-08T18:55:19 < antto> and i have just one transistion to the back layer for all signals, thus two vias for all signals
2023-10-08T18:55:43 < antto> i didn't match the length on the RESET line, i think this isn't used "live" with the clocks
2023-10-08T18:55:43 < jpa-> remember to have enough vias for the return path through the ground planes also, because it will switch reference plane at the vias
2023-10-08T18:56:39 < antto> i may reroute the RAM a bunch more times because i'm still not too happy
2023-10-08T18:57:16 < antto> i feel like there's probably a particular way to get out all the stuff "inbetween the ballz" which would explain the weird pinout
2023-10-08T18:57:56 < jpa-> i would try to route the high-speed stuff on top layer only
2023-10-08T18:58:07 < antto> they are too twisted
2023-10-08T18:58:30 < jpa-> maybe
2023-10-08T18:59:02 < antto> well, maybe it might work if i route some signals down so they make a 180deg turn, but at best i'll increase the track lengths
2023-10-08T19:00:00 < jpa-> do note that you can reorder the signals a bit as needed using the OCTOSPI I/O manager
2023-10-08T19:00:44 < antto> i reordered pins with the cubemx
2023-10-08T19:02:28 < antto> i haven't routed up the chipselect pull resistor and it bothers me ;P~
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2023-10-08T19:39:45 < antto> maybe if i pull the RAM's reset with a resistor i could get away with not pulling the chipselect
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2023-10-08T21:31:01 < nomorekaki> PaulFertser: status
2023-10-08T21:32:17 < PaulFertser> nomorekaki: at least 700 Israeli citizens killed by the terrorists, the army is destroying hamas facilities and getting ready to protect from the other threats should they arise.
2023-10-08T21:32:45 < nomorekaki> yeah I can read that from any news source
2023-10-08T21:32:51 < nomorekaki> how is your street looking like?
2023-10-08T21:33:02 < nomorekaki> any different?
2023-10-08T21:33:06 < specing> PaulFertser: does that count include soldiers and settlers?
2023-10-08T21:33:28 < PaulFertser> specing: there were no settlers anywhere near Gaza
2023-10-08T21:33:37 < PaulFertser> specing: that includes soldiers yes
2023-10-08T21:34:49 < nomorekaki> are people oiling their galils and doing war stuff?
2023-10-08T21:34:52 < PaulFertser> nomorekaki: I went to a different town nearby to see the result of a rocket hitting a street. Several cars burnt down, street light poles nearby have through holes.
2023-10-08T21:35:41 < nomorekaki> do people have their service weapons at home?
2023-10-08T21:36:14 < PaulFertser> nomorekaki: soldiers on vacations have their automatic rifles with them if you mean that
2023-10-08T21:36:32 < nomorekaki> reservists dont?
2023-10-08T21:36:46 < PaulFertser> nomorekaki: few fruit and vegetable shops are not open today, that's the only change I noticed so far.
2023-10-08T21:37:02 < PaulFertser> nomorekaki: yes, they do not.
2023-10-08T21:37:29 < PaulFertser> All settlers left Gaza in 2005, almost 20 years ago.
2023-10-08T21:40:00 < PaulFertser> (not sure about street light poles actually, but traffic light poles are certainly damaged, and the traffic lights on that intersection do not work)
2023-10-08T21:42:11 < nomorekaki> plausable
2023-10-08T21:42:36 < nomorekaki> scrapnel goes through stuff
2023-10-08T21:44:48 < PaulFertser> No soldiers and no settlers were entering Gaza for many many years. It's quite the opposite actually, every day 10-20 _thousands_ of Gaza people were entering Israel to work.
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--- Day changed ma loka 09 2023
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2023-10-09T10:38:24 < jpa-> ST's efforts at consistence are commendable; the HAL GPIO driver is actually pretty reasonable and sets the registers from the basic config struct, no extra crap; but because there are other LL drivers, they had to make LL GPIO driver also that has slightly different struct and separate code for doing the same setup
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2023-10-09T11:17:07 < jpa-> hmm, back when i complained that GD32 HAL coders don't understand `const`.. apparently ST coders don't understand it either
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2023-10-09T11:55:46 < Steffanx> What is const jpa- ?
2023-10-09T12:05:10 < jpa-> const jpa- __attribute__((rant_always));
2023-10-09T12:21:14 < ventYl> jpa-: now at least you know why GD32 hal coders don't understand it
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2023-10-09T14:23:13 < specing> PaulFertser: I hear Israel is getting ready to occypy Gaza as well
2023-10-09T14:23:35 < specing> tbh i think that the two state solution is just unworkable
2023-10-09T14:29:22 < PaulFertser> specing: I'm afraid the occupation is the only reasonable option at the moment. Poor people there are used as weapons by really evil countries and this has to be stopped somehow.
2023-10-09T14:29:46 < PaulFertser> specing: please notice how the big Palestine is not taking part in any action currently.
2023-10-09T14:30:23 < PaulFertser> specing: it would be nice if Egypt just took it all away from Israel, would make it much simpler. But somehow they do not.
2023-10-09T14:32:51 < specing> > The majority of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip are descendants of refugees who fled or were expelled from the area that became Israel after the 1948 Arab-Israeli War.
2023-10-09T14:33:13 < specing> these folks should be citizens of Israel
2023-10-09T14:33:18 < specing> not integrated into Egypt
2023-10-09T14:34:40 < specing> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War 
2023-10-09T14:36:55 < specing> anyways this is all too sad, I'm going to go do other stuff
2023-10-09T14:44:36 < PaulFertser> There's a long and sad history indeed, and some very unfair and horrible things happened from Israeli actions back then too. That said, many thousands of jews forced to leave their homes in Syria, Iran, Iraq, Ethiopia, Lebanon. So there really was some "population exchange" happening, but it's hard to tell if it was indeed fair.
2023-10-09T14:48:12 < PaulFertser> There're 20 % of arab citizens here, they have political parties in the parliament and they're part of everyday life, e.g. many are working as doctors in central hospitals. 
2023-10-09T14:49:06 < specing> citizen swap xD
2023-10-09T14:49:06 < specing> like prisoner exchange
2023-10-09T14:50:57 < qyx> so the ultimate goal is to separate arab/non-arab?
2023-10-09T14:51:08 < qyx> I mean, not, but in order to get some peace, yes
2023-10-09T14:51:48 < specing> PaulFertser: yep.. but I've read somewhere that if every arab leaving on territory of Israel+Gaza were given citizenship, then Israel would become arab majority
2023-10-09T14:51:50 < qyx> but I guess most of the people just don't care who are you as long as you are not a radical
2023-10-09T14:51:57 < specing> qyx: that's already happening, Israel is apartheid state
2023-10-09T14:52:09 < PaulFertser> BTW, few months ago there was a few days operation by IDF in Jenin when plenty of arms were confiscated (including from mosques basements) and Palestinian Authorities didn't complain. While gaza was fully on their own since 2005.
2023-10-09T14:53:03 < qyx> so what's the catch fith Gaza, nobody cares?
2023-10-09T14:53:21 < qyx> not even Palestine?
2023-10-09T14:53:24 < specing> I presume that they want return of their lands, which will not happen
2023-10-09T14:53:28 < PaulFertser> qyx: no, not currently. Many arabs are OK to integrate and live in a relatively civilised country. But unfortunately many more prefer hating instead.
2023-10-09T14:53:33 < specing> hence armed conflict
2023-10-09T14:54:06 < qyx> I mean nobody = Egypt, Israel (until now), Palestine
2023-10-09T14:54:12 < qyx> not the citizens themselves
2023-10-09T14:54:18 < PaulFertser> The thing is, Palestine didn't even exist till very recently. The land was partially Jordan, partially Turkish, partially Egypt, then occupied by the British for quite some time.
2023-10-09T14:55:17 < specing> PaulFertser: from what I understand, it was mostly populated by jews, until at some point (long?) before WW2 it was populated by arabs
2023-10-09T14:55:52 < specing> and then arabs got forcefully pushed out in the '48 war
2023-10-09T14:57:19 < specing> and most of those arabs (and their descendants) now live in Gaza
2023-10-09T14:57:38 < specing> so, basically, one way or another this ghetto situation has to end
2023-10-09T15:00:28 < PaulFertser> specing: there were relatively few jews before they started to come in late 19th century and to buy/rent land from turks. Then they had to live under British control, and at certain point the UK prevented escape of quite many jews from Germany, unfortunately. But at no moment back then there was a "Palestinian nation" or some such, their societies work differently. The first war was started by
2023-10-09T15:00:35 < PaulFertser> arabic countries and many arabs left their places voluntarily too, as there was some propaganda from arabic sides about "giving the way to the armies" and such. Many stayed too, it's not like 20 % of the current population came out of nowhere.
2023-10-09T15:02:07 < PaulFertser> Of course many were forced to live. But so were many jews who managed to escape to Israel eventually. Not only from Europe but from all other countries nearby here.
2023-10-09T15:03:25 < PaulFertser> The territory is not really densly populated too, so there were plenty of opportunities to live together in peace.
2023-10-09T15:04:11 < PaulFertser> Plenty of plans too like giving the West Bank under full Jordan control.
2023-10-09T15:06:15 < PaulFertser> BTW, do you consider Druze to be arabs too? Somehow they're mostly happily living as part of the society.
2023-10-09T15:07:18 < PaulFertser> Serving in IDF too.
2023-10-09T15:12:33 < PaulFertser> In many places currently where illegal settlements are (all very far away from Gaza) the settlers basically "squatted" the land, it's not like they came with military forces and occupied some existing town, no, they're building their own small villages and most of the time do normal goods exchange/trading with neighbouring arabic villages.
2023-10-09T15:20:55 < PaulFertser> You can come and see for yourself (after the current war ends), as a foreigner you can even enter the PA territories.
2023-10-09T15:25:16 < karlp> that's a very positive spin on settlers:)
2023-10-09T15:27:33 < qyx> why do they allow that?
2023-10-09T15:31:55 < PaulFertser> karlp: well, I do not like settlers and how when a conflict happens they get protection from IDF while the arabs do not, living essentially on the same land doing essentially same thing...
2023-10-09T15:44:51 < PaulFertser> Illegal settlements are indeed illegal, and they sometimes do contribute to escalation as far as I can tell. But it also doesn't seem to be anywhere real full occupation, they literally co-exist with arabic settlements on same territory.
2023-10-09T15:50:54 < Streaker> they live in houses that used to belong to Palestinians. after kicking out the Palestinian.
2023-10-09T15:51:22 < PaulFertser> Streaker: I'd like to read more about that, can you share a link please?
2023-10-09T15:52:09 < Streaker> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqozQ8uaV8 first result from google.
2023-10-09T15:52:16 < PaulFertser> And I'm talking about the recent history, like ~30 years, not what happened before.
2023-10-09T15:52:29 < PaulFertser> Hard to _read_ a video, can you share some text material please?
2023-10-09T15:52:47 < PaulFertser> It's hard to read, hard to search through, hard to quote and everything.
2023-10-09T15:52:49 < Streaker> Its ongoing. You could probably find one from yesterday if you looked hard enough.
2023-10-09T15:54:14 < PaulFertser> I'd like to read more about bad things that settlers doing to support by negative attitude, please share.
2023-10-09T15:54:29 < PaulFertser> s/by/my/
2023-10-09T15:54:58 < Streaker> https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-07-25/ty-article/.premium/israeli-settlers-break-into-palestinian-homes-accompanied-by-soldiers-and-searched-them/00000189-8e19-d5eb-abcb-ffdf8ea00000
2023-10-09T15:56:25 < PaulFertser> Streaker: I'm asking about the cases where they occupy the houses and start to live there.
2023-10-09T15:56:37 < Streaker> https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2014/04/hebron-israeli-settlers-must-be-stopped-taking-over-al-rajabi-house-un
2023-10-09T15:56:45 < PaulFertser> Damn it's paywalled that nice haaretz...
2023-10-09T16:00:00 < Streaker> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence#Attacks_on_Palestinian_agriculture_and_property
2023-10-09T16:00:04 < PaulFertser> Streaker: that last one is interesting. So there was a 6-years lasting legal battle involving the Supreme Court about the ownership of a relatively big building.
2023-10-09T16:01:10 < PaulFertser> Streaker: yes, settlers damage property quite often. Unfortunately, arabs do that to settlers too.
2023-10-09T16:02:46 < PaulFertser> There clearly were some important details about that building ownership.
2023-10-09T16:04:01 < Streaker> I have been away from this channel for quite a while. Are you still in Russia or have you left?
2023-10-09T16:04:02 < PaulFertser> If it was such a common thing to just kickout Palestinians and started to live in their buildings it wouldn't take 6 years of legal struggle.
2023-10-09T16:04:10 < PaulFertser> Streaker: I've left
2023-10-09T16:04:44 < PaulFertser> I live not far away from HaAretz now.
2023-10-09T16:05:03 < Streaker> Cool.
2023-10-09T16:06:02 < Streaker> HaAretz is the name of a city?
2023-10-09T16:06:20 < PaulFertser> No, the name of the newspaper.
2023-10-09T16:06:26 < PaulFertser> The paywalled one.
2023-10-09T16:06:42 < PaulFertser> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beit_HaShalom more information about that building
2023-10-09T16:07:44 < PaulFertser> So it looks like nobody ever denied the settlers paid real money for the house.
2023-10-09T16:10:43 < PaulFertser> " Rajabi was summoned to Jericho by the Palestinian Authority, and detained for 6 months "for his own security" " (Rajabi is the businessman who made the building)
2023-10-09T16:13:38 < Streaker> I could be mistaken. I don't live in Israel :)  But I clearly remember seeing a video quite recently of settlers throwing out furniture and a refrigerator from a Palestinian house prior to occupying it. I also remember reading news articles about Olive groves that belonged to Palestinians for generations being taken by Settlers.
2023-10-09T16:16:14 < specing> PaulFertser: >30 years ago still counts, people remember
2023-10-09T16:17:08 < specing> especially if there's no justice served for it
2023-10-09T16:18:44 < specing> and if there's no justice, some people will always seek revenge. Hamas are probably those people
2023-10-09T16:19:27 < PaulFertser> specing: somehow UK is at peace with Israel now and for quite some time. Was the justice served?
2023-10-09T16:20:23 < specing> PaulFertser: I don't know how the state feels about loosing its territories, but folks in UK weren't evicted from their homes en-masse
2023-10-09T16:21:10 < PaulFertser> specing: but UK soldiers were killed in acts of terrorism, and not once or twice. Most people don't even know about it now.
2023-10-09T16:22:27 < Streaker> I don't support Palestine in any way. I hate Islam. BUT. If the palestinians can't get what they want by protesting and obviously they have no army with which to have a proper "civilized" "by the rules" military conflict with Israel. What else can they do? It seems to me they have only two options: Shut up and bend over or attack Israeli civilians.
2023-10-09T16:23:25 < karlp> hrm, my asyncio motoro control has issues. somewhat unsurprisingly...
2023-10-09T16:23:30 < specing> Yes, it's a highly asymteric conflict. If they put up uniforms and started walking towards the border I imagine they'd be picked off by snipers long before reaching it
2023-10-09T16:23:38 < PaulFertser> But what do "the palestinians" really want? Clearly many of them want all jews to be "washed out by the sea".
2023-10-09T16:23:55 < Streaker> True. I don't deny that.
2023-10-09T16:24:40 < karlp> living in peace?
2023-10-09T16:25:17 < karlp> I set the desired encoder position, I start themotor, I get the event the encoder has been hit, I stop the motor... motor keeps running.
2023-10-09T16:25:26 < karlp> onyl happens for very short desired position changes.
2023-10-09T16:25:47 < karlp> I know I'm going to overshoot with an asyncio and raw threshold for encoder positions, but that's ok,
2023-10-09T16:26:14 < karlp> as long as my callback to stop the motor is "greater than" rather than "equal" I don't really care as long as it does stop again.
2023-10-09T16:27:37 < karlp> this is fun though, I've not moved a motor since... university I don't think :)
2023-10-09T16:35:14 < PaulFertser> For a bit more insight into history, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husseini this hitler follower was one of the reasons Palestine people can't live in peace. "In the lead-up to the 1948 Palestine war, Husseini opposed both the 1947 UN Partition Plan and King Abdullah's designs to annex the Arab part of British Mandatory Palestine to Jordan, "
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2023-10-09T17:19:43 < jbo> moin
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2023-10-09T18:14:57 < Steffanx> Gooday sir jbo
2023-10-09T18:15:02 < Steffanx> What's up
2023-10-09T18:16:50 < jbo> not much
2023-10-09T18:16:51 < jbo> there?
2023-10-09T18:27:17 < srk> i/34
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2023-10-09T18:59:52 < Steffanx> Not much I can share either, jbo 
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2023-10-09T19:41:52 < jbo> ack
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2023-10-10T02:26:01 < qyx> pros, how would you do an embedded project ci/cd nowadays?
2023-10-10T02:26:35 < qyx> travis pricing is not feasible, github/gitlab's is, but doesn't have cache on shared runners
2023-10-10T02:27:02 < qyx> well, it does, as a "distributed cache", but then you need to do s3
2023-10-10T02:27:19 < qyx> custom runners are hassle, other than that you need to host them
2023-10-10T02:27:27 < qyx> also, there are traffic limitations / pricing
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2023-10-10T02:27:57 < qyx> and with all that, they are pushing docker into everything
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2023-10-10T02:39:09 < qyx> k, configuring a 'shell' executor gitlab runner on a vps is probably the easiest
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2023-10-10T03:03:52 < jadew> qyx, are you really "d"ing that often on an embedded system that you need a system around it?
2023-10-10T03:09:34 < jadew> I'm off to bed, night!
2023-10-10T03:24:06 < sauce> yeah just do your own runner
2023-10-10T03:24:25 < sauce> id recommend just running it on one of your own machines, perhaps in a vm
2023-10-10T03:26:45 < sauce> and then the cd part can include actually flashing
2023-10-10T03:28:43 < sauce> the only pain point i am aware of wrt selfhosted gitlab runners is the polling rate to gitlab.com is limited so there can be a bit of extra latency invoking the build (circa 60s)
2023-10-10T03:36:50 < sauce> (this goes away if you selfhost gitlab but fuck that noise)
2023-10-10T03:45:21 < sauce> i am looking to move away from gitlab personally, experimenting with forgejo which seems good but its builtin ci is pretty nascent
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2023-10-10T08:13:02 < jpa-> qyx: yeah, i'd just take a VPS from hetzner or something
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2023-10-10T08:52:53 < antto> sauce, didn't you listen to drum'n'bass and stuff?
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2023-10-10T13:26:12 < karlp> heh, this is one of the strictest commit message guidelines I've seen in a while: https://github.com/karlp/micropython/actions/runs/6467992187/job/17559144901
2023-10-10T13:29:55 < ventYl> OCD detected
2023-10-10T13:30:48 < PaulFertser> Haha, but you got it almost right.
2023-10-10T13:30:59 < PaulFertser> Also, the first two rules are redudant.
2023-10-10T13:32:01 < karlp> don't tell me, I just fixed my commit message and repushed :)
2023-10-10T13:33:46 < c10ud> up next: gpt-based commit message rewriter
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2023-10-10T13:47:12 < jadew> The rule at my current job is that sentences (in errors for example) shouldn't be finished with a period.
2023-10-10T13:47:43 < jadew> I feel physical pain when I do that...
2023-10-10T13:49:13 < jadew> "Error: your shit is broken. Check something"
2023-10-10T13:51:40 < jadew> The trick is to keep doing things your way on your own stuff, so it becomes like having an automatic car and a manual one, after a while you switch from one to the other effortlessly.
2023-10-10T13:55:48 < PaulFertser> I switch effortlessy between manual and automatic transmission even without having any car at all.
2023-10-10T13:56:08 < jadew> You rent a lot?
2023-10-10T13:56:25 < PaulFertser> No
2023-10-10T13:57:22 < PaulFertser> I can be not driving for two years, then I need it for whatever reason and I do without much trouble.
2023-10-10T13:59:16 < zyp> driving manual is a bit like riding a bicycle, once you've learned it, the muscle memory sticks pretty well
2023-10-10T14:00:18 < zyp> although I admit it's easy to forget stepping on the clutch when you're starting the car
2023-10-10T14:03:59 < jadew> zyp, yeah, that happens to me sometimes too
2023-10-10T14:04:21 < jadew> Especially if I haven't driven it for a while.
2023-10-10T14:35:47 < ventYl> zyp: all my cars are too old to have clutch-starter interlock implemented
2023-10-10T14:39:00 < zyp> same for the ones I've forgotten the clutch in
2023-10-10T14:39:23 < PaulFertser> Don't you switch to neutral before starting usually?
2023-10-10T14:41:59 < zyp> no, when I had a manual car I usually parked in first, and when starting from a standstill you usually start in first (unless you'll be reversing), so switching to neutral is just adding extra steps
2023-10-10T14:44:01 < PaulFertser> That assumes you never warm up the engine before driving.
2023-10-10T14:45:03 < zyp> fair point, in winter I'd start the engine, leave it in neutral and go out and remove snow
2023-10-10T14:45:43 < ventYl> PaulFertser: my commie car has no reduction gear on starter, so whenever engine is cold you want to press the clutch even in neutral, otherwise you might not get enough revs to start the engine
2023-10-10T14:45:49 < ventYl> especially if it is below zero
2023-10-10T14:45:55 < PaulFertser> In winter I had to release clutch in neutral slowly and carefully or it'd stall the engine due to cold oil in the gearbox.
2023-10-10T14:48:20 < ventYl> pretty much the same effect
2023-10-10T14:57:14 < PaulFertser> So pressing the clutch and switching to neutral and then starting the engine without releasing the clutch was pretty natural, the default action.
2023-10-10T15:00:07 < PaulFertser> I think I tried starting in gear few times while distracted or tired probably.
2023-10-10T15:09:44 < ventYl> this happens routinely to me
2023-10-10T15:09:54 < ventYl> another day in windows, another 25 times I have launched windows help
2023-10-10T15:18:27 < jadew> I do it in the same way PaulFertser describes, regardless of weather.
2023-10-10T15:23:49 < qyx> I always start in neutral + clutch + brake
2023-10-10T15:24:02 < ventYl> yea but you don't have other option
2023-10-10T15:24:09 < qyx> I have
2023-10-10T15:24:22 < ventYl> go by foot?
2023-10-10T15:24:30 < jadew> lol
2023-10-10T15:24:53 < qyx> it happily starts and goes in first gear :>
2023-10-10T15:25:10 < jadew> You can pres the clutch and start the car, that works too, but I don't like that.
2023-10-10T15:25:24 < jadew> What if something goes wrong and it starts moving forward?
2023-10-10T15:25:32 < ventYl> surprising. cca 2007 Opel GT required clutch and IIRC also brake to be pressed in order to start
2023-10-10T15:25:58 < qyx> jpa-: it just moves and the motor starts
2023-10-10T15:26:02 < qyx> sorry, jadew 
2023-10-10T15:27:08 < jadew> qyx, yeah, and you can hit something...
2023-10-10T15:27:22 < qyx> yes that's why I press clutch and brake when starting
2023-10-10T15:27:35 < qyx> and usually also the parking brake is engaged
2023-10-10T15:27:51 < qyx> wifeishman did that once and nearly hit the car in front of her
2023-10-10T15:28:06 < jadew> When I was a kid my grandfather would take me to the river daily during the summer vacation, and one day he gave me the car keys to go wait in the car. I put them in the ignition, turned and the car started moving forward (engine didn't stall).
2023-10-10T15:28:17 < jadew> I pressed the break pedal, it stopped, engine didn't stall
2023-10-10T15:28:32 < jadew> When I was releasing the break, it would keep going forward - I was terrified.
2023-10-10T15:29:26 < jadew> So yeah, I always take all precautions now :)
2023-10-10T15:30:50 < qyx> ventYl: father's toyota requires clutch || brake to start
2023-10-10T15:30:57 < qyx> about as old as the opel
2023-10-10T15:33:02 < ventYl> i am lucky while selecting my cars
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2023-10-10T16:36:04 < Laurenceb_> suppp
2023-10-10T16:36:14 < Laurenceb_> anyone here familiar with udev rules?
2023-10-10T16:36:42 < Laurenceb_> I'm trying to write a rule to run a script when a usb device is mounted, but this script wont work when triggered by udev
2023-10-10T16:36:52 < Laurenceb_> it works fine normally when run from command line
2023-10-10T16:37:11 < Laurenceb_> also the rest of the udev rule is broken by the script being added to the rule
2023-10-10T16:37:31 < qyx> and whats your script
2023-10-10T16:38:32 < Laurenceb_> it starts data processing code that connects to the usb device
2023-10-10T16:38:53 < Laurenceb_>  ./launch_temp.sh
2023-10-10T16:38:53 < Laurenceb_> alsactl: load_state:1763: Cannot find soundcard 'USBtemp'...
2023-10-10T16:39:13 < Laurenceb_> USBtemp is a virtual audio device created by the first part of the udev rule
2023-10-10T16:40:21 < Laurenceb_> maybe this is something to do with ownership, as the virtual device is defined in ~/.asoundrc
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2023-10-10T16:42:12 < jpa-> hmm, on STM32L451, with vector table and code in RAM, I'm getting 30 cycles of interrupt latency from EXTI to GPIO
2023-10-10T16:43:20 < jpa-> cortex-m4 interrupt entry = 12 cycles, EXTI latency maybe 1-2 cycles, 4 interrupt instructions to write GPIO + pipeline latency = 7 cycles
2023-10-10T16:43:22 < qyx> used L451 and exti to sync gps 1pps (don't ask) but never had aproblem with it
2023-10-10T16:43:28 < qyx> but the code runs from the flash
2023-10-10T16:43:34 < jpa-> what latency did you get?
2023-10-10T16:43:52 < jpa-> i'm getting at least 10 cycles more than i expected
2023-10-10T16:44:34 < qyx> idk now
2023-10-10T16:44:40 < qyx> 10 cycles is like 200 ns or so?
2023-10-10T16:45:12 < jpa-> i'm running at 80 MHz, so 12.5 ns per cycle for me
2023-10-10T16:45:20 < qyx> I definitely synced to less than 1/64e6 but that says nothing about the latency, only jitter
2023-10-10T16:46:30 < qyx> how domyou measure?
2023-10-10T16:46:53 < qyx> oh write gpio
2023-10-10T16:47:00 < Laurenceb_> is there a .asoundrc location for root users?
2023-10-10T16:47:15 < qyx> probably in their home
2023-10-10T16:47:34 < ventYl> one can have system-wide asoundrc, IIRC in /etc/
2023-10-10T16:47:39 < qyx> and your udev runs under he udev user, doesn't it?
2023-10-10T16:48:27 < qyx> what uid/gid does it use to run the script?
2023-10-10T16:49:57 < zyp> jpa-, L4 has GPIO on AHB or APB?
2023-10-10T16:52:21 < jpa-> zyp: AHB
2023-10-10T16:53:09 < qyx> does it happen only when the code executes from sram?
2023-10-10T16:53:29 < jpa-> from flash the latency is larger
2023-10-10T16:53:51 < qyx> not sleeping?
2023-10-10T16:56:35 < Laurenceb_> snd_aloop snd_aloop.0: cannot find the slot for index 16 (range 0-2), error: -19
2023-10-10T16:56:37 < Laurenceb_> wtffffff
2023-10-10T17:00:50 < jpa-> FPU is disabled also, so shouldn't be wasting time on that
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2023-10-10T17:45:45 < Laurenceb_> sheet its working
2023-10-10T17:45:56 < Laurenceb_> but now root cannot write to ethernet, wtf
2023-10-10T17:49:45 < ventYl> :>
2023-10-10T17:50:01 < Laurenceb_> hmm maybe not
2023-10-10T17:50:14 < Laurenceb_>  raspberrypi systemd-udevd[3468]: card2: '/home/pi/Documents/Rack/launch_temp.sh'(err) 'Operation not permitted'
2023-10-10T17:50:29 < Laurenceb_> user is "raspberrypi" ?
2023-10-10T17:51:24 < Laurenceb_> oh shitttt
2023-10-10T17:51:26 < Laurenceb_> Note that running programs that access the network or mount/unmount filesystems is not allowed inside of udev rules, due to the default sandbox that is enforced on systemd-udevd.service.
2023-10-10T18:15:08 < Laurenceb_> anyone know how to edit using systemctl edit   ?
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2023-10-10T19:36:35 < BrainDamage> you literally put things where it tells you to, and to override existing entries that allow multiple lines, put an empty one first to reset the list
2023-10-10T19:36:44 < BrainDamage> for the rest, RTFM
2023-10-10T19:39:17 < ventYl> he's long gone
2023-10-10T19:39:36 < BrainDamage> mentally?
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2023-10-10T19:42:34 < ventYl> plausible
2023-10-10T19:42:46 < ventYl> he's gone like a warm fart in autumn wind
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2023-10-10T23:42:59 < nomorekaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECscKICzsJ0 Israel Palestine conflict the bestest explanation
2023-10-10T23:43:56 < antto> kakimor?
2023-10-10T23:44:06 < nomorekaki> nomor
2023-10-10T23:44:14 < antto> mor mor
2023-10-10T23:44:37 < nomorekaki> morkaki
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2023-10-10T23:46:32 < Steffanx> How's your friend haohmaru  nowadays antto ?
2023-10-10T23:46:55 < antto> who?
2023-10-10T23:47:24 < Steffanx> You know who
2023-10-10T23:47:41 < antto> my $job nickname?
2023-10-10T23:47:45 < antto> he's not my friend
2023-10-10T23:48:00 < nomorekaki> hmm job nicknames
2023-10-10T23:48:08 < antto> (don't tell him tho)
2023-10-10T23:48:17 < antto> ((he brings the cash))
2023-10-10T23:48:26 < Steffanx> FarmerKaki?
2023-10-10T23:48:37 < Steffanx> Farmir?
2023-10-10T23:49:15 < antto> kaki, morkaki, farmorkaki
--- Day changed ke loka 11 2023
2023-10-11T00:02:22 < englishman> you're right kaki that is the best coverage so far
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2023-10-11T00:28:57 < nomorekaki> it's a perpetual motion
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2023-10-11T00:54:54 < Steffanx> You are a perpetual motion nomorekaki 
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2023-10-11T09:51:32 < jpa-> zyp: how do you feel about using std::atomic instead of volatile, when writing/reading 32-bit variables from interrupts? https://godbolt.org/z/xf96PKE6e
2023-10-11T09:52:30 < jpa-> somehow it feels cleaner, because volatile is such poorly defined; but std::atomic also feels like a bit of an overkill, though i guess a couple of extra data memory barriers never hurt anyone
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2023-10-11T10:06:17 < zyp> jpa-, you can do this to get rid of the barriers: https://godbolt.org/z/z4bhxh784
2023-10-11T10:07:42 < zyp> I'm not sure exactly how the memory order stuff works, I think most of it is irrelevant
2023-10-11T10:08:49 < zyp> or, I mean, the general idea is that it requires stuff to happen in a given order, so it inserts barriers to avoid a superscalar CPU reordering stuff
2023-10-11T10:09:22 < ventYl> ordering is probably not the best name for it
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2023-10-11T10:10:01 < ventYl> what barriers do is that they ensure that all data manipulations before barrier are done before any instructiom from after bareer starts execution
2023-10-11T10:10:33 < zyp> I think the real benefit of std::atomic vs volatile is when you want to do RMW operations, since it'll handle ldrex/strex stuff for you
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2023-10-11T10:13:52 < ventYl> and they will do that in a portable manner
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2023-10-11T10:15:45 < jpa-> yeah, i'm considering starting a habit of just using std::atomic even if i don't (yet) need RMW
2023-10-11T10:17:28 < ventYl> that sounds as an overkill
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2023-10-11T10:26:20 < jpa-> modern C++ complains about a lot of uses of volatile
2023-10-11T10:26:28 < jpa-> because of the poorly defined specs
2023-10-11T10:26:44 < jpa-> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/59223814/why-is-volatile-deprecated-in-c20
2023-10-11T10:28:09 < ventYl> ah, you meant using it everywhere instead of atomic?
2023-10-11T10:28:21 < ventYl> nah. instead of volatile
2023-10-11T10:29:23 < jpa-> yes :D
2023-10-11T10:29:27 < jpa-> not for every variable :)
2023-10-11T10:29:50 < ventYl> ok, i'll go and grab a coffee
2023-10-11T10:43:24 < zyp> jpa-, not modern enough, C++23 undeprecates a bunch of the stuff that got deprecated in C++20
2023-10-11T10:44:36 < jpa-> lol
2023-10-11T10:45:06 < zyp> https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2021/p2327r1.pdf
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2023-10-11T12:30:29 < karlp> lol
2023-10-11T12:33:20 < karlp> "The deprecation was not received too well in the embedded community"
2023-10-11T12:33:38 < karlp> nice low key approach. keep it low profile
2023-10-11T12:34:59 < karlp> neat, we're fixing c++ standards because vendors, "Based on experience they will not be likely to update their header files to conform to the C++
2023-10-11T12:35:01 < karlp> standard"
2023-10-11T12:38:00 < karlp> man, that paper is a shit show.
2023-10-11T12:38:13 < karlp> "yeah, we didn't really talk to any of our users, we just went ahead in our world view and broke toys"
2023-10-11T12:40:14 < zyp> I mean, the original rationale makes enough sense, volatile is a pretty bad way to synchronize data between threads
2023-10-11T12:40:42 < zyp> the MMIO usecase is pretty different from that
2023-10-11T12:40:51 < ventYl> linux got rid of majority of its volatile uses like a decade ago
2023-10-11T12:41:35 < karlp> zyp: yeah, that's what I mean, they just didn't talk to anyone
2023-10-11T12:41:48 < karlp> anyway, good news!
2023-10-11T12:41:50 < karlp> nothing to do!
2023-10-11T13:03:05 < karlp> TIL phoenix mecano is _not_ another division of phoenix contact.
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2023-10-11T18:01:52 < qyx> I have kakimusiks for Steffanx https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wHl7suYkAM
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2023-10-11T18:23:22 < Laurenceb_> any lunix gurus about?
2023-10-11T18:23:24 < Laurenceb_> https://pastebin.com/u7rF8K5M
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2023-10-11T18:36:59 < sauce> sounds like temperature@.service and/or the udev rules spawning it are dumb and wrong
2023-10-11T18:39:27 < Laurenceb_> yeah the name is mangled
2023-10-11T18:39:49 < Laurenceb_> just changing to temperature@.service and it runs but gets permission error (I think)
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2023-10-11T19:00:13 < sauce> maybe you should look at the service and figure out what the parameter is supposed to be used for
2023-10-11T19:02:55 < Laurenceb_> yeah I'll fix that later
2023-10-11T19:03:02 < Laurenceb_> right now Im stuck with alsactl
2023-10-11T19:05:14 < sauce> are you, conversely, trying to use it to configure a temperature sensor?
2023-10-11T19:05:21 < Laurenceb_> yes
2023-10-11T19:05:35 < sauce> that sounds challenging
2023-10-11T19:05:54 < Laurenceb_> documentation seems wrong, error 19 is no hardware, not error 99
2023-10-11T19:06:03 < Laurenceb_> now I need to work out what error 99 means
2023-10-11T19:07:52 < Laurenceb_> aha
2023-10-11T19:07:55 < Laurenceb_> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=274772
2023-10-11T19:08:01 < Laurenceb_> same mismatched error codes
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2023-10-11T21:10:07 < Steffanx> not mine kind of musics qyx 
2023-10-11T21:15:53 < qyx> that's why I am sending it to you specifically
2023-10-11T21:24:25 < Steffanx> Thanks mr qyx 
2023-10-11T21:25:14 < qyx> to widen your knowledge
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2023-10-11T21:43:41 -!- nomorekaki [~nomorekak@37-136-98-49.rev.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##stm32
2023-10-11T21:54:51 < nomorekaki> ##stm32
2023-10-11T21:55:04 < nomorekaki> damn autocorrect
2023-10-11T21:55:10 < nomorekaki> ##war32
2023-10-11T21:55:17 < nomorekaki> PaulFertser: status
2023-10-11T21:55:34 < Steffanx> 17:01:52 <qyx> I have kakimusiks for Steffanx https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wHl7suYkAM
2023-10-11T21:55:45 < Steffanx> maybe it suits  you better nomorekaki  
2023-10-11T22:00:57 < nomorekaki> not bad
2023-10-11T22:01:09 < nomorekaki> 4mins in
2023-10-11T22:03:38 < PaulFertser> nomorekaki: false alarms on all the North but then reported to be some error.
2023-10-11T22:04:07 < nomorekaki> just pumping citizens
2023-10-11T22:04:23 < nomorekaki> war pump on
2023-10-11T22:04:40 < PaulFertser> nomorekaki: international news reporters showing the world how hamas fairs in comparison to ISIS
2023-10-11T22:05:09 < specing> is IDF leading yet in causing more civilian casualties?
2023-10-11T22:05:16 < PaulFertser> nomorekaki: many thousands of Israeli people returning to the country from all over the world to help.
2023-10-11T22:05:21 < antto> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRxTi2qu3T8 [/shameless_self_promotion]
2023-10-11T22:05:57 < PaulFertser> specing: it's hard to tell because Gaza civilian casualities can't be anyhow meaningfully distinguished from hamas casualities.
2023-10-11T22:06:39 < nomorekaki> antto: not bad
2023-10-11T22:06:46 < specing> PaulFertser: our national broadcaster reports one university destroyed, lots of UN staff dead
2023-10-11T22:07:00 < specing> pictures of whole neighbourhoods leveled
2023-10-11T22:08:06 < antto> nomorekaki, mp3 available at soundcloud ;P~
2023-10-11T22:09:49 < PaulFertser> specing: if you see hamas building an underground facility to store and fire rockets (to scare and kill civilians) near your home, are you not supposed to move at least 500 m away from that? Also, many people get notifications via SMS prior to big attacks on buildings and facilities.
2023-10-11T22:10:21 < PaulFertser> btw, do you consider Gaza to be under hamas occupation?
2023-10-11T22:11:23 < specing> PaulFertser: I'm sure hamas would aim those rocket at military targets if they could aim them
2023-10-11T22:11:42 < specing> from what I've read, they're quite crude design, with many of them falling back onto Gaza
2023-10-11T22:11:48 < PaulFertser> specing: why? It would go contrary to the aims they declare.
2023-10-11T22:12:04 < specing> PaulFertser: I'm unfamiliar with their aims
2023-10-11T22:12:35 < PaulFertser> specing: but Gaza people are very familiar. And please not how all the other Palestinians do not support hamas.
2023-10-11T22:13:18 < PaulFertser> specing: when hamas was shooting civilians in villages and on the festival it was damn clear for them they're aiming their automatic rifles not on military.
2023-10-11T22:13:51 < specing> PaulFertser: one article @  national broadcaster reports that hamas has >50% support
2023-10-11T22:14:22 < PaulFertser> specing: yes, and many people are happy to see hamas shooting civilians. Dancing on dead bodies etc.
2023-10-11T22:14:30 < PaulFertser> specing: more than 50 % _in Gaza_
2023-10-11T22:15:14 < PaulFertser> specing: also, 2 million (2*10^6) arabs are living in Israel and have Israeli citizenship and passport and everything. Are they palestinians or not?
2023-10-11T22:18:15 < PaulFertser> People in gaza are living as a traditional society, big families, everybody knows everybody. They were told to stay away from hamas members and facilities. You do not need to go that far away, no need to cross the border, just get 1 km away from hateful monsters who _aim_ to kill civilians.
2023-10-11T22:18:27 < specing> PaulFertser: Hamas apparently considers everyone (civilian or not) as part of the occupation. This will fire back at them, however. They pretty much gave netanyahu free hands to commit massacres
2023-10-11T22:20:11 < PaulFertser> Hamas needs to be destroyed. So far high precision weapons is used and attacks are aimed specifically at their facilities and homes, and many times people get a warning. And also they all know what's nearby.
2023-10-11T22:20:21 < specing> PaulFertser: I don't know what those arabs consider themselves as, but it was mentioned that IDF operations in occupied lands often cause violence from those arabs
2023-10-11T22:20:49 < PaulFertser> specing: 2 millions of arabs live on Israel land accepted by UN, not occupied.
2023-10-11T22:21:38 < PaulFertser> specing: they are part of the society, they work as doctors in hospitals, they sell goods in shops, they drive ambulances, you name it.
2023-10-11T22:21:48 < specing> PaulFertser: the article didn't explicitly mention, but I suppose it was meant as those not living in occupied lands
2023-10-11T22:23:42 < PaulFertser> specing: also, gaza was occupied by Egypt, why is hamas not fighting Egypt then?
2023-10-11T22:23:44 < specing> PaulFertser: those high precision weapons still have a lot of collatal damage, and this collateral damage will fuel a lot of hate for israel in the coming decades
2023-10-11T22:24:03 < specing> It was (is?) I did not know that
2023-10-11T22:24:29 < PaulFertser> specing: there's no other choice I'm afraid. Hamas needs to be destroyed, they can't live in peace, they want Israelis dead.
2023-10-11T22:25:18 < specing> PaulFertser: there will be so much collateral damage in process of destroying hamas that it will cause another, perhaps worse, group to emerge
2023-10-11T22:25:25 < PaulFertser> specing: you know every day 10-20k of people from Gaza were commuting to Israel to work and bring good money back to their families? Israel was happy to make that much more if people there would want to live rather than fight.
2023-10-11T22:25:39 < PaulFertser> Hamas is as bad as ISIS, can't get worse.
2023-10-11T22:26:11 < specing> Well, the only options, if Israel wants to go that route, is full takeover of Gaza
2023-10-11T22:26:16 < PaulFertser> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_strip#1959%E2%80%931967_Egyptian_occupation
2023-10-11T22:27:12 < PaulFertser> specing: btw, palestinian leaders from West Bank are likely very happy to have hamas and islamic jihad destroyed by IDF hands. Because it means they might regain control of it if terrorism is kept under control.
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2023-10-11T22:29:58 < PaulFertser> And people from Gaza who really wanted could move to West Bank, they had enough time and opportunities for that since 2006 when hamas took over. And hamas is openly terroristic and hateful, their methods isn't a surprise to anyone there.
2023-10-11T22:30:18 < specing> 10-20k is what, less than 1% of population?
2023-10-11T22:30:32 < PaulFertser> It was much more before the first intifada.
2023-10-11T22:31:16 < specing> What changed? Those people stopped working in Israel or they fully moved outside Gaza or were they killed or ..?
2023-10-11T22:31:50 < PaulFertser> There was no real big fence, no strict border. Israelis were going there to spend money in cafes and on the beaches.
2023-10-11T22:32:42 < PaulFertser> Every time Gaza people were doing terrorism acts the border was getting more strict.
2023-10-11T22:34:33 < PaulFertser> It was assumed that it's because of the military controlling the territory and some illegal settlements that the Gaza people were getting cruel. So after much internal political struggle in 2005 Israel forcefully removed all its citizens from Gaza.
2023-10-11T22:35:29 < PaulFertser> But Gaza people just got even more cruel and just a year later hamas took over there, apparently with wide enough support by the inhabitants.
2023-10-11T22:37:21 < specing> pretty sure that segregation never produces good results
2023-10-11T22:37:54 < PaulFertser> Well, the international community was all against occupation, and without occupation or segregation it was impossible to make it safe.
2023-10-11T22:38:56 < PaulFertser> BTW, just yesterday hamas was _aiming_ at few beduin towns in Negev. So they were really after killing other civilian arabs.
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2023-10-11T22:42:01 < PaulFertser> And arabs from Egypt do not want to have them either, somehow. Hamas is closely related to "muslim brotherhood" and Egypt considers that to be a terroristic organisation.
2023-10-11T22:45:35 < PaulFertser> When I mentioned 10k works I meant they were commuting from Gaza _during Hamas times_. Israel was trying to pacify Hamas by providing free electricity, fuel, water and by giving job opportunities to those who wanted. International organisations were giving plenty of help too. E.g. EU provided some water pipes for the plumbing. But hamas took some and made rockets out of them.
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2023-10-11T22:48:23 < PaulFertser> Egypt was only "helping" by allowing smuggling weapons via tunnels...
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2023-10-11T22:51:18 < specing> PaulFertser: I suppose that, if Egypt let the people living in Gaza resettle in egypt, then there would be fewer people who would want to return to where they or their ancestors used to live (within Israel before the '48 war)
2023-10-11T22:51:34 < PaulFertser> Back when UN voted for the plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan it was the internationally accepted solution but who decided to make war instead?
2023-10-11T22:52:06 < Steffanx> Egypt doesn't want the people specing ...
2023-10-11T22:52:18 < PaulFertser> specing: Israel is wasting tons of money on security related to Gaza. I'm sure if a secure solution could be agreed, Israel would be happy to let Egypt full control over the territory.
2023-10-11T22:52:30 < specing> "The proposed plan is considered to have been pro-Zionist by its detractors, with 62% of the land allocated to the Jewish state despite the Palestinian Arab population numbering twice the Jewish population"
2023-10-11T22:53:01 < PaulFertser> Yes, but please see what it says in that big green area there: Negev.
2023-10-11T22:53:13 < PaulFertser> It's a damn useless land.
2023-10-11T22:53:17 < PaulFertser> Desert.
2023-10-11T22:53:45 < PaulFertser> Mostly beduins live there currently, and they are arabs and they're ok with it belonging to Israel.
2023-10-11T22:54:21 < specing> PaulFertser: reasonable then
2023-10-11T22:57:33 < PaulFertser> I mean in the desert parts of it. There're some relatively big jewish towns on the sides.
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2023-10-11T22:59:59 < PaulFertser> It's currently 55 % of the area but just 8.2 % of the population so you can see how it's not really that useful.
2023-10-11T23:00:29 < Laurenceb_> can anyone repost that pastebin alsactl failure I put up earlier pls?
2023-10-11T23:00:47 < PaulFertser> Laurenceb_: https://pastebin.com/u7rF8K5M ?
2023-10-11T23:11:22 < Laurenceb_> thanks
2023-10-11T23:11:36 < Laurenceb_> I suspect the format was changed
2023-10-11T23:11:42 < Laurenceb_>  - of the config file
2023-10-11T23:13:56 < Laurenceb_> ooh thats interesting - that was actually an earlier error, yet alsactl fails with error 99, even tho it doesnt seem to be being run from my script
2023-10-11T23:14:16 < Laurenceb_> raspberrypi systemd-udevd[22558]: Process '/usr/sbin/alsactl -E HOME=/run/alsa restore 1' failed with exit code 99
2023-10-11T23:14:29 < Laurenceb_> almost as if alsactl is broken
2023-10-11T23:14:52 < PaulFertser> Run it manually and see
2023-10-11T23:15:01 < PaulFertser> Optionally with strace.
2023-10-11T23:16:39 < Laurenceb_> ok - don't have access to hardware any more but will try tomorrow
2023-10-11T23:17:06 < Laurenceb_> I tried it manually earlier and it was giving error 99 with or without sudo
2023-10-11T23:22:31 < PaulFertser> specing: I agree Israel is far from being saints and fully fair but you can see now they're dealing with ISIS-level evil and there doesn't seem to be any other option...
2023-10-11T23:23:33 < PaulFertser> Related, El Salvador President says: ""As a Salvadoran with Palestinian ancestry, I’m sure the best thing that could happen to the Palestinian people is for Hamas to completely disappear. Those savage beasts do not represent the Palestinians."
2023-10-11T23:23:37 < PaulFertser> https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-gaza-rockets-attack-palestinians/card/el-salvador-s-president-urges-palestinians-to-oust-hamas-Vj8p9d6tQWat7MDkTdX2
2023-10-11T23:37:53 < karlp> you'll keep getting something like hamas forming as long as you keep thinking that it's ok to run a big ghetto though.
2023-10-11T23:39:53 < specing> ^
2023-10-11T23:40:12 < specing> and thinking it's ok to commit huge massacres in the name of killing hamas members
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2023-10-11T23:52:04 < PaulFertser> I would be happy to see a better solution implemented. Also, I'm sure no IDF soldier is going to shoot an unarmed child. Bombs are precise enough and they are targetted on hamas members, people know they should stay away.
2023-10-11T23:55:49 < Steffanx> I'm not convinced it won't happen. People do crazy things, also IDF soldiers.
2023-10-11T23:56:30 < PaulFertser> Ghetto is bad indeed, and only states like Iran are interested in keeping Gaza ghetto. It was living much better before.
2023-10-11T23:57:35 < PaulFertser> Steffanx: some psychotic incidents can happen. But certainly not en masse.
--- Day changed to loka 12 2023
2023-10-12T00:02:29 < PaulFertser> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement was a mistake. Occupation ended up being the only solution.
2023-10-12T00:14:12 < PaulFertser> specing: Israel is not doing or planning anything like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hamburg_(air) or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II . 
2023-10-12T00:15:00 < karlp> past atrocities don't justify new atrocities.
2023-10-12T00:16:19 < PaulFertser> Of course. My point is that IDF is not using the force indiscriminatory, or otherwise the casualities would be comparable.
2023-10-12T00:17:08 < specing> they're already comparable
2023-10-12T00:17:22 < karlp> generally the idf has a ~20:1 kill ratio, if it's not there there, its because they're j ust getting started.
2023-10-12T00:17:39 < karlp> and I'd personally call flattening appartment buildings "indiscriminate"
2023-10-12T00:18:01 < PaulFertser> If you do not support hamas you go away from that building in advance.
2023-10-12T00:18:14 < karlp> "let them eat cake"
2023-10-12T00:18:18 < specing> you know that you can spin that around you know
2023-10-12T00:18:18 < karlp> "just stop being sad"
2023-10-12T00:18:33 < PaulFertser> It is possible to just walk 1 km away.
2023-10-12T00:18:37 < specing> "If you do not support israel you go away from those territories in advance."
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2023-10-12T00:22:02 < PaulFertser> But it's UN-approved. Israel has every right to stay their ground.
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2023-10-12T00:29:23 < nomorekaki> What does mobilization have common in Russia and Israel?
2023-10-12T00:30:11 < nomorekaki> Long lines for flights to Tel Aviv
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2023-10-12T00:37:18 < specing> loool
2023-10-12T00:38:35 < PaulFertser> Also, it's about 300k recruits in both cases.
2023-10-12T00:46:36 < nomorekaki> what command gives all the channel names on the server?
2023-10-12T00:46:50 < nomorekaki> I remember using such command in like 2008
2023-10-12T00:47:04 < zyp> /list IIRC
2023-10-12T00:47:05 < nomorekaki> or was it some website
2023-10-12T00:47:26 < nomorekaki> cool
2023-10-12T00:49:20 < nomorekaki> libera is very linuxy / oss
2023-10-12T00:49:44 < zyp> well, it's called libera
2023-10-12T00:49:57 < nomorekaki> who would have known
2023-10-12T00:56:36 < nomorekaki> somebody was asking some .NET or some questions months ago
2023-10-12T00:56:52 < nomorekaki> there is #winapi
2023-10-12T00:57:58 < nomorekaki> PaulFertser: #israel
2023-10-12T00:59:21 < Steffanx> Is there #farming ?
2023-10-12T01:00:21 < qyx> more like freezing
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2023-10-12T01:14:08 < nomorekaki> qyx: #metal
2023-10-12T01:14:29 < nomorekaki> Steffanx: no
2023-10-12T01:14:39 < nomorekaki> #gardening though
2023-10-12T01:15:11 < Steffanx> Aha
2023-10-12T01:16:07 < nomorekaki> #nederlands for you
2023-10-12T01:16:42 < nomorekaki> I think I need to check #pissnet personally
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2023-10-12T01:20:10 < Steffanx> ##stm32 is all I need nomorekaki 
2023-10-12T01:20:18 < Steffanx> And nomorekaki ofcourse 
2023-10-12T01:20:43 < nomorekaki> ##pissnet: WARN: This channel is spammy! letspiss.net | wiki.letspiss.net | This isn't a flop house, it's a flop home. | Piss is Peace | https://archive.org/details/KmartDecember1974ReelToReel | Official Home of Pissnet | BC596372 – Coke and Hookers https://corrupt.tech/1708590130-ocr-compressed.pdf | Please Do Not Piss In The Ocean Of Piss
2023-10-12T01:21:11 < nomorekaki> I'm tempted
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2023-10-12T01:23:13 < Steffanx> Uuhm..
2023-10-12T01:25:23 < nomorekaki> https://wiki.letspiss.net/wiki/Pissnet_history
2023-10-12T01:25:34 -!- ferdna [~ferdna@user/ferdna] has joined ##stm32
2023-10-12T01:25:47 < nomorekaki> ah it's about freenode becoming piss
2023-10-12T01:29:35 < nomorekaki> hilarious
2023-10-12T01:31:14 < nomorekaki> somebody did drive-bys advertising pissnet at freenode official channels
2023-10-12T01:33:23 < qyx> nomorekaki: really metal?
2023-10-12T01:33:43 < nomorekaki> idk what it is
2023-10-12T01:34:06 < nomorekaki> topic was something about happiness
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2023-10-12T02:13:04 < qyx> pro stuff https://xdevs.com/article/tcr_test/
2023-10-12T02:15:48 -!- BrainDamage [~BrainDama@user/BrainDamage] has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
2023-10-12T02:24:43 < nomorekaki> impressive
2023-10-12T02:43:45 -!- ferdna [~ferdna@user/ferdna] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2023-10-12T03:39:22 < karlp> whee: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/Fd6Mz.png
2023-10-12T03:39:36 < karlp> HA ui to manually control and watch things.
2023-10-12T03:39:39 < karlp> this is great!
2023-10-12T03:53:35 < benishor> yey
2023-10-12T03:59:22 < karlp> qyx: the fuck is that person animating their graphs for?! I'm still trying to read them and it's rotating around fucking thing
2023-10-12T04:06:52 < karlp> hrm, most of those pages have busted JS for me I guess.
2023-10-12T04:08:44 < qyx> karlp: idk I nearly got an epilepsy attack
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2023-10-12T04:44:47 < qyx> meh 4 am and I am still doing some lame level math and statistics
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2023-10-12T08:50:26 < jpa-> heh, ST support ticket responses have titles that look like typical spam:   Subject: Case# 00189507 has been updated. [ref:_00Db0000000YtG6._5003W00000RHNb1:ref]
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2023-10-12T09:42:14 < antto> typical spam looks like "Dear Beneficiary, ..."
2023-10-12T09:51:38 < jpa-> i get a lot of spam that pretends to be some customer support replies, it's typical of them to not have any useful information in the subject line
2023-10-12T09:51:59 < jpa-> extra points for having sender name of "Online Support"
2023-10-12T10:07:15 < mawk> what maths qyx 
2023-10-12T10:07:41 < mawk> my spam is usually about women dying to have sex with me
2023-10-12T10:13:35 < BrainDamage> I get business partnership propositions as spam
2023-10-12T10:14:58 < BrainDamage> I suspect that we all get spam in the same form, but the filters are more lax in terms of content that the average person that the filter thinks that matches us
2023-10-12T10:16:12 < mawk> I have exactly zero filters
2023-10-12T10:16:24 < mawk> which is maybe why I receive so much spam
2023-10-12T10:17:11 < Steffanx> I often have those hackers wanting buttcoins because they recorded me doing "naughty" things.
2023-10-12T10:17:52 < BrainDamage> mawk: unless you're hosting your own email, you have plenty of filtering upstream
2023-10-12T10:17:58 < jpa-> they always promise to send the video to all of Steffanx' friends, but i've never received it :|
2023-10-12T10:20:10 < Steffanx> Why would a hacker send them to you? You already have them 
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2023-10-12T10:20:43 < jpa-> i'd like a second copy
2023-10-12T10:22:51 < mawk> yes it's my own email server BrainDamage 
2023-10-12T10:22:53 < mawk> Steffanx they sent one to my grandma
2023-10-12T10:22:55 < mawk> saying they are the gendarmerie and they caught her with pedo pornographic material
2023-10-12T10:26:30 < Steffanx> Lol
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2023-10-12T12:25:41 < mawk> we have 100 sets with 10 numbers each, defined as {1, 2, …, 10}, {11, 12, …, 20}, …, {991; 992; …; 1000}
2023-10-12T12:25:50 < mawk> in how many of these sets do we have 2 multiples of 7?
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2023-10-12T12:30:26 < zyp> mawk, 42
2023-10-12T12:30:40 < qyx> 40
2023-10-12T12:31:00 < qyx> sorry, 42
2023-10-12T12:31:43 < zyp> floor(1000/7) says there's 142 multiples of 7 in total, and all sets have one or two each
2023-10-12T12:31:44 < qyx> both wrong imo
2023-10-12T12:32:50 < zyp> subtracting one from each set is -100, leaving 42 for the sets that have two
2023-10-12T12:32:51 < qyx> 1-100 has 4 such groups
2023-10-12T12:33:53 < qyx> but their distribujtion is not that uniform, it repeats after first 3 occurences
2023-10-12T12:35:46 < qyx> I am lazy to continue, but I would say every third group of 100 has 5
2023-10-12T12:36:27 < qyx> 4, 4, 5, 4, 4, 5, 4, 4, 5, 4 maybe
2023-10-12T12:36:49 < qyx> but that§s 43
2023-10-12T12:37:01 < mawk> group of 10 you mean?
2023-10-12T12:37:08 < mawk> the answer is 42 as far as I can tell
2023-10-12T12:37:30 < qyx> I grouped the 1..10 groups into groups of 100
2023-10-12T12:37:34 < qyx> and observed how it behaves
2023-10-12T12:37:36 < zyp> qyx, 7 is prime, so you need to look at 7*100 to find repetition
2023-10-12T12:38:11 < zyp> probably something like 4, 4, 5, 4, 4, 5, 4 repeating
2023-10-12T12:38:25 < qyx> yes
2023-10-12T12:38:36 < mawk> why groups of 100
2023-10-12T12:38:40 < qyx> because.
2023-10-12T12:38:46 < mawk> if anything groups of 70 would work nicely
2023-10-12T12:38:59 < mawk> they each contain 30 multiples of 7
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2023-10-12T12:39:59 < qyx> hm yeah every group of 70 contains 3 couples
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2023-10-12T12:40:23 < mawk> a group of the form [10(n-1) + 1; 10(n-1) + 10] contain 2 multiples of 7 if and only if n = 0 mod 7 or n = 3 mod 7 or n = 5 mod 7
2023-10-12T12:40:26 < qyx> but thats 14.2857 groups total * 3
2023-10-12T12:40:40 < qyx> and that's 42
2023-10-12T12:41:19 < mawk> so, on an interval of the form [7k; 7k+6] we have 3/7 of the numbers such that they are odd mod 7
2023-10-12T12:41:29 < qyx> because the remainder 0.2857*7 is only the first two 10 groups and they do not contain couples
2023-10-12T12:41:50 < mawk> between 0 and 97 we have 14 groups of 7 numbers, and 3/7 of that will contain couples
2023-10-12T12:41:57 < zyp> but still, that's overthinking it
2023-10-12T12:41:59 < mawk> so 98×3/7
2023-10-12T12:42:21 < mawk> then you have to subtract the one for 0 because n ≥ 1, and add the one for 98
2023-10-12T12:42:27 < mawk> so still 98×3/7
2023-10-12T12:42:36 < mawk> = 42
2023-10-12T12:42:47 < zyp> answer is still floor(1000/7)-100
2023-10-12T12:43:44 < mawk> you have to verify the edges still 
2023-10-12T12:43:48 < mawk> even with that formula
2023-10-12T12:43:58 < mawk> it just turns out everything cancels out at the edges so it's fine
2023-10-12T12:44:03 < zyp> sure
2023-10-12T12:44:30 < zyp> call it floor(1001/7) - floor(1/7) - 100 then
2023-10-12T12:44:31 < qyx> I hate you, I spent 15 minutes on this
2023-10-12T12:45:08 < mawk> my 98 is exactly 101//7
2023-10-12T12:45:16 < mawk> but now you're smarter qyx
2023-10-12T12:45:20 < mawk> keeping your brain young
2023-10-12T12:46:05 < qyx> I am keeping my brian young by fixing other's people stuff
2023-10-12T12:46:16 < qyx> and now ordering M8 connectors
2023-10-12T12:46:26 < qyx> there is nothing more enlightening than ordering connectors
2023-10-12T12:46:41 < mawk> lol
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2023-10-12T17:10:03 < karlp> so. I've got a motor, doing a "basic" pid control, but it never settles properly.
2023-10-12T17:10:15 < karlp> now, the motor won't _turn_ at less than a speed of "8" or so,
2023-10-12T17:10:28 < karlp> so obviously when it's calculating the smaller speeds to close in on the solution it fails.
2023-10-12T17:10:54 < karlp> or, it tries, but it just keeps writing low speeds out and then waiting for the change, which never happens.
2023-10-12T17:11:20 < karlp> I've tried just limiting the low speed, but that just makes it oscillate back and forth around the set point, 
2023-10-12T17:12:46 < karlp> what's a better technique? this seems like a normal issue to have to deal with.
2023-10-12T17:14:27 < BrainDamage> is the control loop for position or velocity?
2023-10-12T17:14:36 < zyp> that's what I was about to ask
2023-10-12T17:16:13 < zyp> when you're doing position control, I suspect it can make sense to give it a bit of nonzero flux when it's close to the target position
2023-10-12T17:16:20 < zyp> kinda how steppers hold position
2023-10-12T17:17:38 < zyp> also, what is «speed»?
2023-10-12T17:29:10 < karlp> for position.
2023-10-12T17:29:33 < karlp> yeah, I've currently gone with "if error and last error are within "close enough" just call it good and set speed to 0"
2023-10-12T17:30:01 < karlp> speed is a very arbitrary -100:100 number for the pwm ratio to the h-bridges.
2023-10-12T17:31:07 < karlp> I'd kinda like to do some sort of acceleration control too maybe, as this is for raising/lowering halloween decorations, and goign down is _wayyyy_ faster than going up :)
2023-10-12T17:31:19 < BrainDamage> do you have a double control loop? one in current and one in voltage?
2023-10-12T17:31:41 < karlp> lol, no. I just have two pwm out, and an encoder for position back in.
2023-10-12T17:32:08 < karlp> I was _hoping_ that with a proper encoder, I could do absolute positioning "easily"
2023-10-12T17:32:09 < BrainDamage> the loops don't have to be strictly in hw
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2023-10-12T17:32:33 < BrainDamage> you can have two nested loops, and use two integrators to do position and velocity
2023-10-12T17:34:06 < karlp> hrm, Imight have to try this outside on the wall to see if it's important enough to worry about for that aspect, I'm more irritated about the chattering back and forth around a position, even when it's got no load beyond a flag on the axel.
2023-10-12T17:34:17 < BrainDamage> because what you're controlling really is the current, and the current only controls the force-acceleration that the motor applies, so the position is the 2nd integral of that
2023-10-12T17:34:31 < karlp> true,
2023-10-12T17:34:41 < BrainDamage> the pid only has 1 integrator, which is not enough to have 0 error for position, that's why you nest two
2023-10-12T17:35:37 < karlp> Ineed to think about how to nest themthough... I understand that position is second integral from my applied force (from pwm current) but not yet how to get that into code...
2023-10-12T17:37:58 < karlp> what+s kinda neat though is that I've got this on a 5ms asyncio loop, and it's running scrolling pixel leds at the same time, and mqtt to home assistant :)
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2023-10-12T17:40:58 < karlp> https://nc.beeroclock.net/s/3bwc44aWK8bPSDX
2023-10-12T17:51:16 < zyp> karlp, brushed motor?
2023-10-12T17:51:48 < zyp> if you're just controlling pwm, that's neither speed nor current but voltage
2023-10-12T17:52:33 < zyp> speed and current are indirectly derived from voltage and load
2023-10-12T17:54:03 < karlp> well, I'm sending pwm to a drv8833, so I _thought_ I was controlling current on the other side, but .. sure,voltage
2023-10-12T17:54:34 < karlp> actually, this isn't on the drv8833 board. thi si sjust some generic dip8 h-bridge,
2023-10-12T17:54:38 < karlp> it was easier to mount.
2023-10-12T17:56:46 < karlp> TA6586 apparently. 
2023-10-12T17:58:34 < zyp> so voltage pushes current, current is torque, torque makes the motor spin, the spinning creates back-emf, back-emf reduces the effective voltage limiting how much current you can push
2023-10-12T18:00:09 < karlp> what is the "goal" value for the inner loop though?
2023-10-12T18:00:37 < zyp> AIUI the typical motor control chain goes position -> speed -> current/torque
2023-10-12T18:01:09 < zyp> position -> speed -> current/torque -> voltage/pwm
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2023-10-12T19:05:51 < jpa-> karlp: if you are sending pwm, you are controlling voltage which is roughly the same as controlling speed
2023-10-12T19:06:59 < jpa-> karlp: what are you trying to control? position?
2023-10-12T19:09:06 < jpa-> normal PID should work ok, but if you need large acceleration it might help to have feedforward terms for speed and acceleration
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2023-10-12T21:06:35 < karlp> no, currently accelleration is fine, I _somewhat_ want to do lower accelleration, or, more correctly, breaking when it's going in one direction, so it can do down at a more controlled rate rather than "falling".
2023-10-12T21:11:15 < jpa-> you want to limit speed? limit the max pwm duty
2023-10-12T21:12:42 < jpa-> or you want smooth braking before it reaches target? D term can help with that but for better control you'd have trapezoid motion planner
2023-10-12T21:14:34 < karlp> hrm, this is more that it's going up and down, with the load on teh  motor, "down" basicalyl just falls, so PID in that direction is kinda totally different.
2023-10-12T21:14:56 < karlp> I'm going to have to string it up with some more height than my desk to try it out a bit more, see if this really matters.
2023-10-12T21:16:26 < karlp> I was hoping to avoid doing serious motion planning and just have "spider.move_to(position_y); await spider.in_position();spider.move_to(new_position) sort of thing as being enough..
2023-10-12T21:16:29 < jpa-> what often works quite nicely is having some heuristics that control it almost correctly, like "if going up, voltage = X * speed, if going down, voltage = -Y * speed" and then let PID handle the error
2023-10-12T21:17:00 < karlp> right.
2023-10-12T21:18:00 < karlp> I was hoping to have I/D terms sufficient that I could just have slower rise time, and no real overshoot, and accept a slight total error, and maybe I just need more tuning of that,
2023-10-12T21:18:29 < karlp> but that might be a bit easier if I could actually plot some curves, instead of "did the motor "stop" in the right place?" byhand.
2023-10-12T21:18:37 < jpa-> on my wife's adjustable desk i have this   http://paste.dy.fi/WvG/plain
2023-10-12T21:18:47 < jpa-> it's basically acceleration limited PI control
2023-10-12T21:18:51 < jpa-> slow, but smooth
2023-10-12T21:19:16 < jpa-> when   abs(current_height - target)  is below threshold, it start decelerating
2023-10-12T21:20:29 < jpa-> and then it scales the PI controller output based on that
2023-10-12T21:24:02 < karlp> in other news, "The STM32Cube ecosystem promised land"
2023-10-12T21:24:16 < jpa-> and delivered water?
2023-10-12T21:25:15 < jpa-> i did one work project with STM32Cube HAL this week, just to check if i still hate it; yep, i do :)
2023-10-12T21:25:34 < karlp> yeah, place I interviweed with this week uses Tiva,
2023-10-12T21:25:47 < karlp> I'm not going to ask what the environment's like...
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2023-10-12T23:34:10 < Steffanx> Come on. Code Composter Studio is amazing
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--- Day changed pe loka 13 2023
2023-10-13T00:02:23 < kdehl> Hm. I've come to notice that the KiCad symbol for the STM32F410CBUx is wrong.
2023-10-13T00:02:49 < kdehl> At least it lacks a few VSS pins. Dunno if there's more.
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2023-10-13T00:58:43 < aandrew> dammit I read a blog article about new/upcoming compiler attributes which allowed you to avoid the compiler whining that a variable was being used uninitialized
2023-10-13T00:58:46 < aandrew> have any of you seen something like that
2023-10-13T00:59:11 < aandrew> e.g. void func_a(void) { int a, b, c; c = func_b(&a, &b); } int func_b(int *x, int *y) { *x = 5; *y = 8; return 9; } -- normally the compiler will whine about a and b not being initialized before being used
2023-10-13T01:01:27 < zyp> huh?
2023-10-13T01:01:40 < zyp> I don't think your example will cause any warnings
2023-10-13T01:02:17 < qyx> it triggers my ocpd though
2023-10-13T01:03:00 < qyx> for two reasons 1. defining multiple variables on a single line and 2. defining a local variable without initialising
2023-10-13T01:03:43 < zyp> the only warning that code produces is that c is unused: https://godbolt.org/z/zsGKfWT8W
2023-10-13T01:05:43 < qyx> kdehl: they may be aggregated into one
2023-10-13T01:05:48 < qyx> it is usually the case
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2023-10-13T01:08:54 < kdehl> qyx: I might have been mistaken. There were several pins in the same location on the symbol.
2023-10-13T01:09:02 < kdehl> Feels like it's autogenerated.
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2023-10-13T01:10:07 < qyx> no it is a common practice
2023-10-13T01:10:55 < kdehl> It is?
2023-10-13T01:11:13 < kdehl> Both passive and GND pins in the same place?
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2023-10-13T01:15:31 < kdehl> Oh well. I'll accept it.
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2023-10-13T01:19:03 < kdehl> Now for something else I don't really understand. I mixed up the LQFP and UFQFP versions of the STM32F410. Almost identical pinouts, but not quite. PRR_ON only exists on the LQFP, while PB11 only exists on the UFQP.
2023-10-13T01:19:21 < kdehl> Feels kinda random to just skip one bit in an otherwise 16-bit port like that.
2023-10-13T01:19:42 < qyx> what is UFQP
2023-10-13T01:20:16 < qyx> there is QFP and QFN, other characters don't matter
2023-10-13T01:20:48 < kdehl> Sorry, UFQFP according to the datasheet.
2023-10-13T01:21:24 < qyx> still wrong :>
2023-10-13T01:21:42 < qyx> yes they are different
2023-10-13T01:23:08 < kdehl> Indeed.
2023-10-13T01:24:28 < kdehl> Can I program one model with firmware written for the other as long as I don't use features that differ between them?
2023-10-13T01:24:45 < qyx> it totally depends on the exact parts
2023-10-13T01:25:31 < kdehl> Okay.
2023-10-13T01:25:43 < qyx> if you are asking for F410, then what, does it even exist?
2023-10-13T01:25:55 < qyx> there was F401, 411, 412 and 413
2023-10-13T01:26:14 < qyx> 411had more SRAM, 412 and 413 some additional CAN interfaces
2023-10-13T01:26:55 < qyx> oh there indeed is F410
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2023-10-13T01:27:44 < qyx> which is even lower tier than F401
2023-10-13T01:28:10 < kdehl> I want to make one of these: https://www.nobomi.cz/8bit/armsid/index_en.php  It uses a STM32F410CBU (UFQFPN, UFN or whatever), but I want to use a STM32F410CBT (QFP) instead. It's not certain at all that it would work? Or even likely?
2023-10-13T01:28:52 < kdehl> (Because JLC only had the QFP in stock.)
2023-10-13T01:29:42 < ventYl> heh, what have we done?
2023-10-13T01:29:45 < qyx> if you have the sources available, you can recompile , but for this particular case it will work unless there is a pin incompatibility
2023-10-13T01:30:29 < qyx> uh what's that
2023-10-13T01:30:57 < ventYl> SW implementation of C64 ASIC
2023-10-13T01:31:01 < kdehl> It will? Because they're both 'F410?
2023-10-13T01:31:07 < kdehl> ventYl: I know right? :)
2023-10-13T01:31:26 < kdehl> ventYl: https://aws.dose.se/files/hardsid/hardsid01_with_swinsid.jpg
2023-10-13T01:31:46 < kdehl> That's another emulator, based on an overclocked AVR.
2023-10-13T01:32:08 < kdehl> Sounds pretty good too: https://aws.dose.se/files/hardsid/hardsid_0.1_with_swinsid.mp4
2023-10-13T01:32:18 < ventYl> no, not AVR anymore
2023-10-13T01:32:21 < kdehl> Compared to an actual SID: https://aws.dose.se/files/hardsid/hardsid_0.1_with_8580.mp4
2023-10-13T01:32:28 < ventYl> let it die in filthy cars
2023-10-13T01:32:55 < zyp> kdehl, F410xB is same die no matter how it's packed
2023-10-13T01:33:20 < zyp> if you got it wired up the same way, there's no logical difference
2023-10-13T01:34:21 < qyx> unless they are using some pins from th QFN version that QFP doesn't have available
2023-10-13T01:34:25 < zyp> between different chips in the same family, it's usually a subset/superset relationship where you have a common subset of features that's identical on all chips
2023-10-13T01:34:32 < kdehl> zyp: So why the difference in pinout? If the functions are there, why not use them for both packages?
2023-10-13T01:34:46 < kdehl> qyx: They are not.
2023-10-13T01:35:09 < zyp> qyx, that's covered by «wired up the same way»
2023-10-13T01:35:47 < qyx> kdehl: because QFP requires dedicated GND pins
2023-10-13T01:35:59 < qyx> in QFN you can omit some or all
2023-10-13T01:36:01 < zyp> but are there pinout differences between CxU and CxT?
2023-10-13T01:36:28 < kdehl> qyx: Because you have one big gnd pad in the middle on the QFN?
2023-10-13T01:36:42 < zyp> I've transitioned designs between g0 qfp and qfn and don't recall any significant pinout differences
2023-10-13T01:37:14 < kdehl> zyp: PB11 doesn't exist in the QFN, unless I'm missing something.
2023-10-13T01:37:15 < zyp> I've also got one firmware build that's designed to run on both g071 and g0b1
2023-10-13T01:37:34 < zyp> ok
2023-10-13T01:38:12 < qyx> PB11 exists on neither
2023-10-13T01:38:32 < qyx> QFN has PB9 on pin 46, QFP has VSS there
2023-10-13T01:38:43 < kdehl> qyx is right. I was confused.
2023-10-13T01:39:05 < qyx> QFN has VSS on 47, QFP has PDF_ON
2023-10-13T01:39:27 < kdehl> Sorry, I meant PB9.
2023-10-13T01:39:32 < qyx> they don't use pin 46
2023-10-13T01:39:50 < kdehl> Exactly. So PB9 is gone.
2023-10-13T01:39:51 < qyx> you can ground both 46 and 47 to make it compatible
2023-10-13T01:40:10 < kdehl> Right.
2023-10-13T01:40:52 < qyx> but you don't have PDR in that case which is weird
2023-10-13T01:41:07 < qyx> DS only states that PDR_ON is available only on the WLCSP36 package
2023-10-13T01:41:23 < qyx> which is clearly not the case
2023-10-13T01:41:44 < qyx> regardless of that when you ground it you are effectively disabling power supervisor
2023-10-13T01:42:04 < qyx> I would say the schematic is wrong
2023-10-13T01:42:50 < kdehl> qyx: The ARMSID one?
2023-10-13T01:43:00 < qyx> because you don't want to disable POR/PDR
2023-10-13T01:43:04 < qyx> yes
2023-10-13T01:44:01 < qyx> and it is also wrong with handling VBAT
2023-10-13T01:44:18 < qyx> because without the power supervisor, you must connect VBAT to VDD according to the datasheet
2023-10-13T01:44:40 < kdehl> qyx: Well, I'm remaking the schematic so if you want to give my any tips, I'd appreciate it. :)
2023-10-13T01:44:44 < qyx> they are saying "should", so it probably works without
2023-10-13T01:45:31 < qyx> I am trying not to be offensive and grumpy, but who the f... is that džín
2023-10-13T01:45:37 < qyx> making a schematic without component values
2023-10-13T01:47:18 < qyx> or is that you
2023-10-13T01:47:20 < kdehl> I have a feeling it wants to pretend it's open source but not really.
2023-10-13T01:47:24 < kdehl> No.
2023-10-13T01:47:49 < kdehl> Okay, I'm one stupid motherfucker.
2023-10-13T01:48:05 < qyx> I would not object, you know better
2023-10-13T01:48:18 < kdehl> I just realized he doesn't publish the firmware. Only the Commodore PRG file that is used to configure the SID.
2023-10-13T01:48:30 < kdehl> So I can't make a replica of this project.
2023-10-13T01:48:44 < qyx> k objednani zde, haha
2023-10-13T01:48:57 < qyx> you must pay!
2023-10-13T01:50:33 < qyx> isn't it updated from the system/PRG?
2023-10-13T01:50:53 < qyx> but you still need the firmware though
2023-10-13T01:50:59 < kdehl> Yeah.
2023-10-13T01:51:00 < qyx> you could probably extract it fro the prg
2023-10-13T01:51:46 < kdehl> Well. I thought this was going to be a simple project.
2023-10-13T01:55:55 < qyx> if you motivated zyp hard enough during his short procrastination periods, he would extract it for you on first sigh
2023-10-13T01:57:39 < kdehl> Short as in only a few years?
2023-10-13T01:57:49 < kdehl> zyp: What does it take to get you motivated? :)
2023-10-13T01:59:32 < zyp> haha, what's this even about? I lack some context here
2023-10-13T02:00:19 < qyx> some companion chip for 8bit retro computers and the czech guy solds it as a product without any firmware files available
2023-10-13T02:00:19 < zyp> ah, SID stuff
2023-10-13T02:00:38 < qyx> but you can download the updater in .prg and .d64
2023-10-13T02:00:48 < zyp> have you seen this stuff? https://github.com/daglem/reDIP-SID
2023-10-13T02:00:51 < qyx> I browsed the hexdump to see if I can see the vector table
2023-10-13T02:00:56 < kdehl> Wait, I found an alternative: https://github.com/Sgw32/UltiSID
2023-10-13T02:01:23 < kdehl> zyp: I hadn't!
2023-10-13T02:02:14 < zyp> seems like a decent project
2023-10-13T02:02:30 < zyp> I was given one of the first revision boards of those, but I don't have a C64 to put it into :)
2023-10-13T02:03:44 < kdehl> Maybe you want one of my HardSID ISA cards?
2023-10-13T02:03:54 < kdehl> If you have an ISA capable computer, that is.
2023-10-13T02:04:03 < zyp> haha, no
2023-10-13T02:04:05 < zyp> hmm
2023-10-13T02:04:06 < zyp> actually
2023-10-13T02:04:22 < zyp> I might have a pentium 2 computer somewhere
2023-10-13T02:04:30 < zyp> unsure if I threw it out or not
2023-10-13T02:04:43 < kdehl> See!
2023-10-13T02:04:44 < zyp> but no, I'm not really into that stuff
2023-10-13T02:04:51 < kdehl> Yeah alright.
2023-10-13T02:05:05 < kdehl> The UltiSID project even includes production files for JLCPCB. :)
2023-10-13T02:05:32 < kdehl> Also, UltiSID is now called KungFuSID, apparently.
2023-10-13T02:05:46 < kdehl> Which by the way, is not safe to search for at work. I learned that the hard way.
2023-10-13T02:06:13 < zyp> I have a different kind of retro computer to build replacement hardware for: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/WpVlV.jpg :)
2023-10-13T02:06:55 < kdehl> USB-C and Ethernet are retro now?
2023-10-13T02:07:00  * kdehl is older than ever
2023-10-13T02:07:11 < zyp> no, that's the replacement hardware
2023-10-13T02:07:21 < zyp> bottom is the original
2023-10-13T02:08:29 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/DudYD.jpeg
2023-10-13T02:09:48 < kdehl> Hm. I found a thread about the KungFuSID stuff here. Seems to have been released publicly: https://www.lemon64.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=77556
2023-10-13T02:10:08 < kdehl> zyp: Cool. ...what is it?
2023-10-13T02:11:34 < zyp> it's a Fanuc R-J2 from around 1995 or so
2023-10-13T02:12:16 < kdehl> Cool! You have the entire robot?
2023-10-13T02:12:20 < zyp> yep
2023-10-13T02:12:57 < kdehl> That is awesome. Any plans to do something useful with it or just play around?
2023-10-13T02:13:52 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/DR9or.jpeg
2023-10-13T02:14:30 < zyp> dunno about useful, first I'm going to get it to run with the replacement controller
2023-10-13T02:15:26 < qyx> I like your new wooden guard rails or whatever is the proper term for that
2023-10-13T02:15:28 < zyp> I managed to spin a motor a few weeks ago: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/cAB2o.mp4
2023-10-13T02:15:33 < kdehl> Admit it, you live in that garage. I see the couch you're sleeping on upstairs.
2023-10-13T02:15:35 < qyx> on the upper gallery platform
2023-10-13T02:16:21 < zyp> qyx, yeah, we built fences around the whole thing
2023-10-13T02:16:36 < qyx> k fences
2023-10-13T02:16:36 < zyp> I often bring the kid with me, can't have her falling off
2023-10-13T02:17:24 < qyx> how does your suspension bridge look now?
2023-10-13T02:19:25 < kdehl> I'm so jealous of that place. This is what my high-tech lab looks like: https://aws.dose.se/files/high_tech_lab.jpg
2023-10-13T02:19:31 < kdehl> I hate living in an apartment.
2023-10-13T02:19:32 < zyp> hmm, don't have any good photos
2023-10-13T02:20:35 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/Hg28Y.jpeg
2023-10-13T02:21:08 < qyx> great, same design then
2023-10-13T02:21:14 < zyp> yeah
2023-10-13T02:22:34 < qyx> I'll have such place in the future, just next to the sheep shelter
2023-10-13T02:22:38 < qyx> replacing this basement
2023-10-13T02:25:03 < zyp> I'm hoping to test the DTC motor control code on the robot this weekend
2023-10-13T02:25:31 < zyp> so far I've only been desktop testing it on a small 20W motor, but now it's at the point where it seems fairly usable
2023-10-13T02:25:31 < kdehl> Okay, I'll just replace the ARMSID with that UltiSID-KungFuSID-thingy instead.
2023-10-13T02:26:13 < zyp> just need to bring up the current feedback ADCs and figure out how the signal looks
2023-10-13T02:27:17 < zyp> which is what I've been working on tonight
2023-10-13T02:27:57 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/ankZc.png
2023-10-13T02:31:11 < zyp> 12 ADCs produces quite a bit of data and the samplerate is already bottlenecked by how fast I can shift it out, so I'm aiming to run it at 65 MHz
2023-10-13T02:33:38 < zyp> two parallel chains of 6 each, so effectively 130 MT/s, gonna limit me to around 250 kSPS
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2023-10-13T03:08:07 < karlp> armsidschema.pdf wat? are values a premium subscriber feature or sumthing?
2023-10-13T03:46:55 < qyx> :>
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2023-10-13T03:56:50 < qyx> any recommended "standard red glue" for (mostly) smd components?
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2023-10-13T04:02:11 < Ecco> Heya :)
2023-10-13T04:03:01 < Ecco> I need to generate a 60 Hz clock signal. Is there any way to achieve this while my STM32 is in standby?
2023-10-13T04:03:48 < Ecco> In stop mode I guess I can use an LPTIM, but the part I'm looking at has a 3uA current in standby vs 30uA in stop, so that's close to a 10x increase, just to generate a clock signal
2023-10-13T04:08:00 < qyx> is it a ultra super low power design you need the 3 uA?
2023-10-13T04:08:30 < qyx> and what's the specs for the clock signal? does it need to be super precise, low jitter, etc?
2023-10-13T04:08:57 < qyx> is 60.015 Hz ok?
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2023-10-13T12:05:10 < qyx> meh asking a question and leaving
2023-10-13T12:12:07 < ventYl> kids these days are not patient
2023-10-13T12:55:54 < kdehl> C'mon, he gave you guys eight minutes.
2023-10-13T12:55:56 < kdehl> You failed him.
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2023-10-13T13:39:54 < jpa-> https://github.com/STMicroelectronics/STM32CubeL4/issues/86   so apparently it takes more than 3 years for ST to add const
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2023-10-13T13:44:36 < jpa-> i guess it doesn't help that they have copypasted the same code in million copies without any plan on how to maintain it
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2023-10-13T14:37:34 < Steffanx> Jpa-: You should use more "powerful" language, like dongs used to do. 
2023-10-13T14:42:31 < Steffanx> Only 71 issues between yours and the old one. The Cube must be pretty good.
2023-10-13T14:45:13 < ventYl> that's less than erratas in nrf53 silicon
2023-10-13T14:48:58 < Steffanx> Any Nordic silicon probably 
2023-10-13T15:01:33 < qyx> speaking of nordic, should I touch it?
2023-10-13T15:01:42 < qyx> I want something for garden lights
2023-10-13T15:01:53 < qyx> BLE + a couple of GPIO
2023-10-13T15:03:04 < ventYl> if you can start from nimble + freertos example, then yes, otherwise probably not
2023-10-13T15:03:23 < karlp> micropython on esp32.
2023-10-13T15:03:34 < karlp> super easy
2023-10-13T15:04:03 < qyx> yes but I want to use some remaining power for making light
2023-10-13T15:04:15 < karlp> what?
2023-10-13T15:04:23 < qyx> so I would rather start with something less power hungry
2023-10-13T15:04:51 < qyx> have you some secret recipe for making esp32 low power?
2023-10-13T15:04:58 < qyx> as in lower than 19 mA or so
2023-10-13T15:05:12 < karlp> not even trying....
2023-10-13T15:05:43 < karlp> but yeah, probably not the best if you really want to go lower power :)
2023-10-13T15:07:31 < qyx> hm I am fine with freertos if the power management is working properly
2023-10-13T15:13:22 < Steffanx> If you can make yourself work with zephyr than even Nordic will work. Getting it low power (uA or lower) is pretty much done for you.
2023-10-13T15:15:47 < qyx> I tried to port zephyr to custom hw once
2023-10-13T15:16:02 < qyx> failed with resource starvation
2023-10-13T15:17:19 < Steffanx> Me too, it worked fine here. But I just started from development kit board files.
2023-10-13T15:18:21 < Steffanx> But if you're a true a NIH guy you'll feel like living in hell.
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2023-10-13T16:25:41 < srk> til https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absement#Relation_to_PID_controllers
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2023-10-13T16:30:27 < jpa-> i knew the table from 0 to 3, i wonder where plops get used
2023-10-13T16:38:09 < srk> :D .. i was wondering what do you get when you go the other way and integrate displacement.. in meter seconds, and it actually has a name
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2023-10-13T16:46:09 < srk> jpa-: your PI controller looks weird btw, why do you multiply accumulator with p gain?
2023-10-13T16:46:57 < srk> *error
2023-10-13T16:51:10 < srk> *accumulator += (p * i * TIMESTEP) * error; looks fishy
2023-10-13T16:55:10 < jpa-> srk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional%E2%80%93integral%E2%80%93derivative_controller#Standard_versus_parallel_(ideal)_form
2023-10-13T16:56:32 < jpa-> i randomly pick between the two forms when implementing PID controller, it keeps things exciting when trying to tune it
2023-10-13T16:58:01 < srk> hmm, fun :)
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2023-10-13T17:42:04 < karlp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/Knd99.png
2023-10-13T17:42:13 < karlp> ok, now I can plot it, I hve a better chance of maybe tuning this :)
2023-10-13T17:42:30 < karlp> now I just need to make the log spam less...
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2023-10-13T17:59:02 < karlp> I miss having SWO.
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2023-10-13T18:24:10 < karlp> hrm, I thnk I'm missing encoder interrupts.
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2023-10-13T18:43:29 < jpa-> karlp: what are you controlling? spiders for halloween?
2023-10-13T18:51:53 < karlp> yeah, did you see the little video I posted yesterday? (https://nc.beeroclock.net/s/3bwc44aWK8bPSDX)
2023-10-13T18:52:11 < karlp> if anything, the chatter in the position makes it more scary :)
2023-10-13T18:52:56 < karlp> I've limited the downspeed, and that's nicer, but I think Ineed to look at getting the encoder into C land, i'm losingabsolute positioning if I make large slews,
2023-10-13T18:53:02 < karlp> and that's unacceptable :)
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2023-10-13T19:05:03 < karlp> right, also, having the leds running _is_ interfering with the pid loop.  too much going on for por little micropython asyncio :)
2023-10-13T19:05:17 < karlp> still, progress!
2023-10-13T19:11:25 < jpa-> real spiders are somewhat chattery too
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2023-10-13T20:22:01 < machinehum> qyx: What's the normal way to implement CC/CV? right now I'm running CC until 16.8V then flicking to CV, but the issue is the cell pack V is dropped to 16.4V, making CV charge at quite a high rate 
2023-10-13T20:22:20 < machinehum> I guess I could google it perhaps
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2023-10-13T20:29:26 < jpa-> machinehum: why is cell pack V dropped?
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2023-10-13T20:30:20 < machinehum> Because no more CC I guess
2023-10-13T20:30:23 < jpa-> at the point where you switch you should have voltage = 16.8V and current = your CC current; if you then switch to CV mode at 16.8V, the current should remain the same
2023-10-13T20:30:36 < jpa-> how does the pack know you switch mode?
2023-10-13T20:30:56 < srk> jpa-: I get it now, your (K)i = 1/Ti so it matches the standard form. you could turn it into parallel one by moving (K)p out and turning (K)i into (K)p/Ti which matches the definition but since they are all constants it doesn't really matter.. tho it's interesting to relate Ki and Kp using Ti..
2023-10-13T20:30:59 < jpa-> at the beginning of CV mode, you have current equal to the CC mode current, and then it starts to fall
2023-10-13T20:31:07 < machinehum> Maybe I've written this completely wrong
2023-10-13T20:31:16 < machinehum> Pack does not know
2023-10-13T20:32:11 < srk> jpa-: was also wondering why it's acc += p * i * dt * err instead of just acc += dt * err and using p * i later in output and that doesn't make a difference either since a*integral(f(t)) = integral(a*f(t))
2023-10-13T20:36:56 < machinehum> https://pastebin.com/raw/qxAinx0J
2023-10-13T20:37:35 < machinehum> I think there might just be an artifact where the voltage is jumping to 16.8V, I'll do some filtering
2023-10-13T20:38:02 < machinehum> Because if it's consistently 16.8V yeah CV should be the same current as CC and die off...
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2023-10-13T20:58:33 < jpa-> if you are regulating in software, why don't you just do CC-CV without separating the modes like that? i.e.   if (target_i > i && target_v > v) { increase_output(); } else { decrease_output(); }
2023-10-13T20:59:10 < jpa-> assuming target_v = max charge voltage and target_i = max charge current
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2023-10-13T21:05:38 < machinehum> I'll give that a go
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2023-10-13T21:10:56 < machinehum> That makes a lot more sense than just jankily changing modes
2023-10-13T21:11:00 < machinehum> Thanks jpa- 
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2023-10-13T22:18:04 < machinehum> Time to figure out why my BQ76920 isn't balancing properly...
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2023-10-13T22:25:34 < Laurenceb_> supppp
2023-10-13T22:25:53 < Laurenceb_> looks like muh pi creation "works", but usb 5v is undervolting...
2023-10-13T22:29:54 < Laurenceb_> is it ok to power a pi through the 5V GPIO pins?
2023-10-13T22:30:14 < Laurenceb_> something seems wrong - getting hundreds of mV of voltage drop between psu and Rpi 5V rail
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2023-10-13T23:09:33 < srk> Laurenceb_: you can power via gpio, only missing tvs diode and fuse compared to usb
2023-10-13T23:14:02 < Laurenceb_> I think I found the issue
2023-10-13T23:14:33 < Laurenceb_> its mainly the shield connectors are cheap and nasty, but also 0.1inch pin headers have ~20mOhm ESR
2023-10-13T23:15:07 < Laurenceb_> board is drawing ~1.5A so it all ads up to 0.25V drop
2023-10-13T23:15:22 < Laurenceb_> PSU is at 4.9V so it all makes sense
2023-10-13T23:15:34 < antto> time to buy some superconductor headers
2023-10-13T23:16:54 < srk> solder to testpoints
2023-10-13T23:16:55 < Laurenceb_> with ~1mm^2 cable soldered direct to the Rpi PCB and just a single 0.1inch header to connect PSU it should be >4.87V
2023-10-13T23:16:57 < Laurenceb_> yeah
2023-10-13T23:17:00 < srk> haha
2023-10-13T23:17:39 < antto> Laurenceb_, at $job we power crapberry pies with 5.3V
2023-10-13T23:17:52 < srk> when doe is brown out? or burn..
2023-10-13T23:17:57 < Laurenceb_> sounds sensible
2023-10-13T23:18:17 < Laurenceb_> srk: atm I get occasional "undervoltage warning" when under heavy load
2023-10-13T23:18:29 < Laurenceb_> and USB devices that need >4.5V can drop out
2023-10-13T23:20:35 < Laurenceb_> I goofed by using this
2023-10-13T23:20:44 < Laurenceb_> https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/3195176.pdf
2023-10-13T23:20:48 < Laurenceb_> no adjust input
2023-10-13T23:23:18 < machinehum> hmmmm
2023-10-13T23:29:55 < srk> pi5 has a new pmic that can handle like 5A
--- Day changed la loka 14 2023
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2023-10-14T00:08:55 < Laurenceb_> yeah but no proper battery supply
2023-10-14T00:08:57 < Laurenceb_> epin fail
2023-10-14T00:09:04 < Laurenceb_> and its way more power hungry
2023-10-14T00:09:27 < Laurenceb_> cm4 demo board has a 5.15v smps for the USB ports, seems to work very well
2023-10-14T00:11:51 < karlp> yah, I put 5.1V for the supply on my hub.
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2023-10-14T00:47:07 < Steffanx> Who needs a battery supply on an rpi?
2023-10-14T00:47:23 < Steffanx> Except for Laurenceb_ 
2023-10-14T00:49:28 < qyx> I gave kids a box full of M8 connectors to unpack
2023-10-14T00:49:53 < qyx> but I had to do it myself because they were so slow with it that I managed to solder them faster
2023-10-14T00:51:14 < zyp> I got a new toy today: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/SLGKe.mp4
2023-10-14T00:52:14 < Laurenceb_> kek wut
2023-10-14T00:52:16 < Laurenceb_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u36HXXFMmEg
2023-10-14T00:52:54 < qyx> what's that zyp
2023-10-14T00:53:04 < qyx> an air driven old gyroscope?
2023-10-14T00:53:23 < Laurenceb_> how the hell does this guy only have 737 subscribers
2023-10-14T00:54:16 < qyx> (I remember there was a space probe for measuring gravitational waves which had some perfect spheres onboard spun up with a nitrogen or something)
2023-10-14T00:54:23 < zyp>  qyx, tool changer for the robot arm: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/797468335969271818/1162479920589578420/IMG_20231013_210306.jpg https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/797468335969271818/1162479921822707753/IMG_20231013_212817.jpg
2023-10-14T00:55:15 < karlp> fancy.
2023-10-14T00:55:16 < zyp> didn't have any bolts long enough to actually mount it on the arm, hence no tool-on-arm pics yet
2023-10-14T00:55:43 < karlp> so you get what, air + 15 pins across a plug/play connection?
2023-10-14T00:56:03 < zyp> six air lines and a DE-9
2023-10-14T00:56:06 < karlp> I couldn't see the sprung contacts in your first picture.
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2023-10-14T00:56:46 < qyx> wasn't it expensive?
2023-10-14T00:56:46 < zyp> not sure exactly what I should set up the electric interface for
2023-10-14T00:57:11 < karlp> looks expensive at least .)
2023-10-14T00:57:14 < qyx> and does it provide rotation while maintaining the connections?
2023-10-14T00:57:32 < zyp> it's a rigid connection, no slip ring
2023-10-14T00:57:51 < qyx> I am asking because.. why not use a regular Han modular connector in a mostly standard case for that?
2023-10-14T00:58:03 < qyx> you get many kinds of connections, even coax, air too
2023-10-14T00:58:18 < zyp> for what?
2023-10-14T00:58:24 < qyx> for tool attachment
2023-10-14T00:58:34 < qyx> those things have clamps rated at many kg
2023-10-14T00:58:39 < qyx> and connections inside
2023-10-14T00:58:58 < zyp> the point is that the robot can switch tools automatically
2023-10-14T00:59:37 < qyx> okay that was unexpected
2023-10-14T01:00:01 < qyx> I mean I know what are tool changers for but somehow I missed that point completely
2023-10-14T01:00:37 < karlp> zyp: so, more importatnyl, what tools are you going to have?
2023-10-14T01:00:45 < zyp> to be fair, I'm not sure how much automated switching I'll be doing, but just having a quick way to manually change is well worth it
2023-10-14T01:00:46 < karlp> plasma, laser, FDM?
2023-10-14T01:01:02 < qyx> I just though that using something like this would be easier https://www.harting.com/sites/default/files/2017-09/Han-Modular_Gelenkrahmen_Hint_filter.jpg
2023-10-14T01:01:05 < karlp> fuck linear rails and controls, just MOVE THE ROBOT ARM
2023-10-14T01:01:06 < qyx> and cheaper
2023-10-14T01:01:29 < zyp> dunno yet, but being able to just mount some shit to an attachment ring makes it a lot easier than bolting it directly to the arm
2023-10-14T01:02:11 < qyx> see those thick contacts for the plasma cutter
2023-10-14T01:02:14 < zyp> certainly won't be easier, given that this thing is designed for exactly the tool attachment flange on the arm, it's some ISO standard
2023-10-14T01:03:59 < zyp> and I'm not sure it's any cheaper either, that shit looks expensive
2023-10-14T01:05:40 < zyp> karlp, I'm thinking about getting a hotplate and having the robot switch between a batter dispenser and a spatula and have it make pancakes
2023-10-14T01:07:57 < qyx> lol
2023-10-14T01:08:45 < zyp> here's a similar toolchanger in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hen5_R2Q28
2023-10-14T01:08:53 < zyp> I think the one I got is a chinaclone of EINS OX
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2023-10-14T02:33:44 < qyx> so has Ecco found the periodic auto-wakeup feature yet?
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2023-10-14T15:46:45 < karlp> well, cool, I switched from a pure python soft irq encoder impl to using the esp32 hardware encoder support, and (unsuprisingly) I now don't lose encoder ticks and have repeatable positioning now .)
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2023-10-14T15:47:19 < Steffanx> Still happy with micropython karlp ?
2023-10-14T15:49:11 < karlp> yeah actually.
2023-10-14T15:49:20 < karlp> the contracting I did over the summer was doing some C modules for it,
2023-10-14T15:49:31 < karlp> I'm still missing cortex-m where I have swo
2023-10-14T15:49:57 < karlp> like, I'm currently sending udp packets with my trace data in it, which ... works, but isn't really a scalable or broadly applicable technique
2023-10-14T15:52:18 < Steffanx> Whats wrong with good old uart and an ftdi cable?
2023-10-14T15:52:30 < karlp> that would have required more wiring :)
2023-10-14T15:52:43 < karlp> but yeah, I did think of that too, 
2023-10-14T15:55:21 < karlp> here: updated https://nc.beeroclock.net/s/6R5LeYPprkazm9p
2023-10-14T15:55:28 < karlp> ok, lego with the kids now...
2023-10-14T16:00:52 < Steffanx> heh, still shaky much. 
2023-10-14T16:00:54 < Steffanx> have fun with the lego
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2023-10-14T16:16:51 < srk> looks like a feature
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2023-10-14T16:56:40 < karlp> super shaky still, but yeah, calling it a feature right now
2023-10-14T16:56:57 < karlp> i suspwct the motor should have been bigger
2023-10-14T16:57:29 < karlp> i was trying to eatimate based on aliexpreas stall currents and spindle estimates and shit.
2023-10-14T16:57:30 < srk> or geared
2023-10-14T16:57:35 < karlp> it is geared
2023-10-14T16:57:44 < srk> ooh
2023-10-14T17:05:40 < srk> maybe with a smaller spool dia
2023-10-14T17:18:34 < antto> lego is fun by definition
2023-10-14T17:18:43 < antto> except when you can't find _that_ part
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2023-10-14T18:28:46 < karlp> yeah, spool diameter vs how many turns you need to get actual speed might be interesting,
2023-10-14T18:28:56 < karlp> but that's really tedious to try and change.
2023-10-14T18:29:00 < karlp> so not a priority right now
2023-10-14T18:29:23 < karlp> need to work on the people sensor now, and also how to steal some power out of a light fitting to get this wired into place
2023-10-14T18:39:56 < mawk> P is the polynomial of minimal degree such that the remainder in the euclidean division by X^2 + X + 1 is X + 2, and the remainder in the euclidean division by X^2 + 1 is 2X + 1. what is the sum of the squares of the coefficients of P?
2023-10-14T18:44:10 < mawk> listen to les amants de poitevin karlp https://youtu.be/fY6H51t7SZA
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2023-10-14T18:52:02 < zyp> mawk, sounds too tedious, don't have a more interesting problem?
2023-10-14T18:52:32 < mawk> it's not tedious it's beautiful with the right perspective
2023-10-14T18:52:54 < mawk> we are really actually talking about the complex numbers i and j
2023-10-14T18:53:08 < mawk> i² + 1 = 0 and j² + j + 1 = 0
2023-10-14T18:54:35 < mawk> another problem: the sequence a_0, a_1, …, is a strictly increasing arithmetic sequence of integers such that 2^a_7 = 2^27 · a_7. what is the minimum possible value of a_2 ?
2023-10-14T19:00:12 < zyp> strictly increasing in the sense that a_7 = a_2 + 5?
2023-10-14T19:01:12 < Steffanx> Ohno, mawk is spreading his meth from ##python-offtopic to here 😱😱
2023-10-14T19:01:46 < zyp> ah, no
2023-10-14T19:08:39 < zyp> mawk, did you say anywhere that a_0 can't be negative?
2023-10-14T19:09:05 < mawk> strictly increasing meaning a_0 < a_1 < a_2 < …
2023-10-14T19:09:19 < mawk> they're all positive integers
2023-10-14T19:09:19 < zyp> yes, 
2023-10-14T19:09:23 < zyp> okay
2023-10-14T19:09:33 < mawk> you can take a_0 to be nonzero but it doesn't really matter in the end
2023-10-14T19:10:28 < zyp> a_0 is 4 and a_2 is 12
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2023-10-14T19:58:07 < mawk> yes something like this
2023-10-14T20:07:05 < mawk> 2^a_7 = 2^(27 + log2(a_7)) so log_2(a_7) = 5 is a good candidate 
2023-10-14T20:07:21 < mawk> because a_7 needs to be an integer
2023-10-14T20:08:35 < mawk> the next one is log_2(a_7) = 37 but that's surely not the minimal solution
2023-10-14T20:09:10 < mawk> so a_7 = 32
2023-10-14T20:12:13 < mawk> and now (a_0; a_2) = (32-7r; 32-5r) and we have to find the minimum of a_2 keeping a_0 positive, which yields r = 4 fairly easily 
2023-10-14T20:12:40 < mawk> so a_2 = 32-5×4 = 12
2023-10-14T20:19:19 < mawk> is that how you did it zyp ?
2023-10-14T20:19:37 < mawk> also for the polynomial thing you very simply apply the chinese remainder theorem to directly get the answer
2023-10-14T20:20:14 < mawk> (X²+X+1)^-1 = -X mod X²+1 and (X²+1)^-1 = X+1 mod X²+1
2023-10-14T20:20:53 < mawk> the second one is mod X²+X+1 sorry
2023-10-14T20:21:24 < mawk> so immediately P = (X+2)(X+1)(X²+1) - (2X+1)X(X²+X+1) mod (X²+X+1)(X²+1)
2023-10-14T20:22:42 < mawk> = -X⁴ + 2X + 2
2023-10-14T20:23:38 < mawk> which has a beautiful interpretation 
2023-10-14T20:23:54 < mawk> -X⁴ = -X mod X²+X+1 and -1 mod X²+1
2023-10-14T20:24:06 < mawk> so you recover either X+2 or 2X+1
2023-10-14T20:24:32 < mawk> but sadly we have to reduce it mod X⁴+X³+2X²+X+1 to get the final answer
2023-10-14T20:25:14 < mawk> P = X³ + 2X² + 3X + 3
2023-10-14T20:29:34 < antto> do i smell mathz
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2023-10-14T21:06:43 < Steffanx> idk what you smell, but im not sure its math
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2023-10-14T21:15:45 < mawk> zyp suppose x, y positive reals s.t. x^y = 2^64 and (log2 x)^(log2 y) = 2^7. what is the greatest possible value of log2 y ?
2023-10-14T21:17:44 < karlp> mawk: queued it up,m will let you know later
2023-10-14T21:17:55 < mawk> it's not techno 
2023-10-14T21:18:12 < mawk> it's about the wolve eating the lovers of Poitevin
2023-10-14T21:18:43 < Steffanx> its not even boom boom music :o
2023-10-14T21:22:15 < Steffanx> Im not sure if having no clue what they sing helps with this kind of music mr mawk 
2023-10-14T21:22:21 < Steffanx> For it me doesnt
2023-10-14T21:23:44 < antto> who sings what
2023-10-14T21:24:16 < Steffanx> La Rioule des Compagnons du Monde
2023-10-14T21:27:53 < mawk> Steffanx they're singing about two lovers in the countryside in the early morning making love after getting engaged
2023-10-14T21:28:02 < mawk> and then getting brutally mauled by a wolf
2023-10-14T21:28:50 < antto> wut
2023-10-14T21:31:00 < mawk> they call for the guard, but everyone gets killed as well
2023-10-14T21:31:11 < mawk> except one horribly maimed soldier
2023-10-14T21:31:20 < mawk> who comes back to the village
2023-10-14T21:31:57 < mawk> so the guy is saying stay up in the mountain in the early morning to avoid the fate of the lovers of Poitevin
2023-10-14T21:46:49 < mawk> I have another one Steffanx 
2023-10-14T21:46:57 < mawk> a much less dark story
2023-10-14T21:47:17 < mawk> https://youtu.be/JhChBg4Bui4
2023-10-14T21:47:29 < mawk> it's about a young girl who's transforming into a doe at night 
2023-10-14T21:47:47 < mawk> and gets hunted and eaten by her brother and his soldiers as an allegory for rape and incest
2023-10-14T21:52:28 < Steffanx> Yes wonderful, its still in a language i dont understand ;)
2023-10-14T21:56:49 < mawk> you should know it by now
2023-10-14T21:58:45 < Steffanx> Je ne parle pas français
2023-10-14T21:58:50 < Steffanx> i hated french on high school
2023-10-14T22:00:30 < mawk> I will teach you Steffanx 
2023-10-14T22:00:52 < mawk> I bought a new knife to defend against junkies behind Gare du Nord
2023-10-14T22:00:53 < Steffanx> better teach me math :p
2023-10-14T22:00:56 < Steffanx> useful math
2023-10-14T22:01:05 < mawk> slashing is better than stabbing
2023-10-14T22:01:19 < mawk> useful maths is a swear word
2023-10-14T22:01:33 < mawk> maths is pure
2023-10-14T22:01:45 < Steffanx> ok: useful for me
2023-10-14T22:02:37 < mawk> you need to learn some more linear algebra
2023-10-14T22:03:25 < Steffanx> yes
2023-10-14T22:04:15 < zyp> mawk, the first part was pretty obvious, 2^x = 2^27 * x implies that x itself must be a power of two, and the first one above 27 is 32 which gives you 2^32 = 2^27 * 2^5, which is true
2023-10-14T22:04:58 < mawk> yeah
2023-10-14T22:05:30 < mawk> it would work with 2^64 = 2^27 * 2^37 too tho
2023-10-14T22:05:47 < zyp> hence a_7 is 32, and for a_0 to be positive the max step size is floor(32/7) which is 4, and a_0 is then 32 - 7*4 which is also 4
2023-10-14T22:05:55 < mawk> which the proof of the problem (which is from the AMC 12 2022 B exam) doesn't talk about
2023-10-14T22:06:35 < zyp> you wanted the smallest possible a_2, which implies smallest possible a_7
2023-10-14T22:07:25 < zyp> 32 fits and there's no other powers of two between 27 and 32
2023-10-14T22:07:46 < mawk> yeah
2023-10-14T22:08:06 < mawk> with having a_0 > 0
2023-10-14T22:08:24 < zyp> indeed
2023-10-14T22:08:31 < mawk> if you relax that requirement, a_0 < 0 but a_2 > 0 interesting things might happen
2023-10-14T22:08:50 < zyp> true
2023-10-14T22:11:11 < zyp> wait
2023-10-14T22:11:49 < zyp> 2^64 doesn't work
2023-10-14T22:12:15 < zyp> you're substituting respectively 64 and 2^37 for a_7, and 64 != 2^37
2023-10-14T22:12:27 < mawk> ah you're right
2023-10-14T22:12:34 < zyp> 32 is the only possible a_7
2023-10-14T22:13:03 < mawk> if you allow real numbers there might be another one
2023-10-14T22:14:24 < mawk> -1/ln(2) W(-ln(2) 2^-27)
2023-10-14T22:14:48 < mawk> W is the Lambert W function, which has two branches
2023-10-14T22:14:57 < mawk> one will give the 32, and the other one my friend Wolfram will tell me
2023-10-14T22:16:44 < mawk> 7.4505806354012263886491659083717491870137021883021348487583... × 10^-9
2023-10-14T22:16:48 < mawk> beautiful
2023-10-14T22:19:06 < zyp> well, yeah, at that point 2^x is pretty much 1, so you're pretty much doing 1/2^27
2023-10-14T22:19:50 < mawk> the 32 result: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=-1%2Fln%282%29+*+LambertW%5B-1%2C+-ln%282%29*2%5E%28-27%29%5D
2023-10-14T22:20:00 < mawk> and the other real result: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=-1%2Fln%282%29+*+LambertW%5B0%2C+-ln%282%29*2%5E%28-27%29%5D
2023-10-14T22:20:02 < zyp> which matches your answer to 8 digits or so
2023-10-14T22:20:08 < mawk> the infinity of other results are complex
2023-10-14T22:20:26 < mawk> yeah
2023-10-14T22:21:16 < mawk> W is the solution to the equation x*e^x = a
2023-10-14T22:21:21 < mawk> such that x = W(a)
2023-10-14T22:21:36 < mawk> and by tweaking a bit our equation we can get to this form
2023-10-14T22:22:13 < mawk> and for x < 0 and except for x = -1/e there are always two real solutions
2023-10-14T22:24:36 < mawk> then 2^x and 2^27*x are both 1.000000005164349... 
2023-10-14T22:24:43 < mawk> with the limited python precision
2023-10-14T22:25:08 < mawk> I guess recognizing that there are 2 solutions is easier than giving the second solution, using the argument you gave
2023-10-14T22:25:40 < mawk> just like for the equation x^y = y^x there are 2 solutions, the obvious x = y and another one
2023-10-14T22:25:59 < mawk> 2^4 = 4^2 is such an example
2023-10-14T22:26:06 < mawk> and probably the only example with integers
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--- Day changed su loka 15 2023
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2023-10-15T01:16:16 < fenugrec> jadew are you still making prescaler boards for PM66* freq counters ?
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2023-10-15T02:10:26 < machinehum> I have never, ever, ever has more problems soldering a chip than with this CSD97395Q4M
2023-10-15T02:10:38 < machinehum> It's horrible
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2023-10-15T02:14:46 < antto> that's not gonna want to solder with an iron
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2023-10-15T02:30:59 < kdehl> Um. I wonder, when using JTAG, you have the RESET pin connected to your programming device, which I assume puts the device in a state at which it receives programming commands over the clock and data pins and whatnot.
2023-10-15T02:31:56 < kdehl> I have this schematic in which only the SWDIO and SWCLK pins are exposed to the programmer. How does the controllre know it's supposed to receive commands on those pins without the reset?
2023-10-15T02:32:18 < kdehl> Um. Or at least I believe this is how AVR controllers work. Maybe ARM is different?
2023-10-15T02:33:44 < kdehl> https://aws.dose.se/files/kungfusid.pdf
2023-10-15T02:33:47 < kdehl> That is the diagram.
2023-10-15T02:37:43 < qyx> it always does by default unless SWD is disabled for some reason
2023-10-15T02:38:01 < qyx> when only swdio/swdata s connected, you will have trouble debugging in low power modes
2023-10-15T02:38:13 < qyx> but therwise works
2023-10-15T02:39:01 < kdehl> Ah great. Good to know.
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2023-10-15T02:40:20 < kdehl> Then I'll order 20 of these boards.
2023-10-15T02:46:35 < qyx> how much is that board?
2023-10-15T02:46:45 < qyx> aha kungfu
2023-10-15T02:56:36 < qyx> there was a great internal mosfet ideal diode for 5V/4A with reverse current protection (and true disconnect)
2023-10-15T03:01:56 < qyx> oh sorry, of course the current cannot flow in reverse
2023-10-15T03:02:05 < qyx> with an enable input I meant
2023-10-15T03:11:33 < zyp> machinehum, like I said, took me three takes to rework one to get it working
2023-10-15T03:13:54 < zyp> it's a shame though, it seems like a pretty nice part now that it works
2023-10-15T03:19:36 < qyx> I am the one failing at soldering regularly
2023-10-15T03:19:39 < qyx> how could you?
2023-10-15T03:19:44 < qyx> I did that one on first try
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2023-10-15T03:41:47 < Ecco> hi guys
2023-10-15T03:41:58 < Ecco> I'd like to apologize for asking a question and disconnecting a few days ago
2023-10-15T03:42:10 < Ecco> I was using the webchat and my PC went to sleep…
2023-10-15T03:42:58 < Ecco> Anyway, I had asked if it was possible to generate a 60Hz clock signal when in standby. The requirements for the signal are pretty lax (i.e. it can be between 57 and 63 Hz)
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2023-10-15T03:45:02 < qyx> I was asking if 60.015 or so is okay
2023-10-15T03:45:08 < Ecco> It absolutely is
2023-10-15T03:45:14 < Ecco> Even 62Hz is ok
2023-10-15T03:45:15 < qyx> check the RTC periodic auto-wakeup feature
2023-10-15T03:45:50 < qyx> because LSE is probably the o ly sufficiently accurate oscillator running in stantby
2023-10-15T03:45:55 < qyx> *standby
2023-10-15T03:46:16 < qyx> it can also be routed to some gpios (tamper)
2023-10-15T03:46:28 < Ecco> I'll have LSE running anyway as I need an RTC
2023-10-15T03:46:35 < qyx> at least on G4 iirc
2023-10-15T03:47:45 < Ecco> What's the general idea though? Wake up from standby every 1/60th of a second?
2023-10-15T03:48:13 < Ecco> Wouldn't the power usage while in RUN mode outweight the benefits of being in standby the rest of the time?
2023-10-15T03:48:18 < qyx> you don't have to if you can route the signal out
2023-10-15T03:48:26 < Ecco> oh
2023-10-15T03:49:13 < Ecco> ok, so the idea is "the RTC generate some kind of a hardware interrupt. The MCU does *not* wake up on that interrupt, *but* the interrupt is output to a GPIO"?
2023-10-15T03:50:23 < qyx> check the section in the RM, it generates an internal signal which can cause an interrupt if enabled and/or can be output on GPIOs active in low power modes,there are some
2023-10-15T03:50:52 < qyx> sorry mo interrupt, a wakeup
2023-10-15T03:51:05 < Ecco> ok, cool, thanks!
2023-10-15T03:53:13 < Ecco> Another question about a drawing for a UFQFPN48 package
2023-10-15T03:53:15 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/rQhB0fK.png
2023-10-15T03:53:20 < Ecco> What does "ddd" mean?
2023-10-15T03:57:03 < qyx> are you aware your ram content will be lost in standby unless there is a support for sram retention in standby?
2023-10-15T03:57:29 < qyx> you will mostlikely need to go through reset
2023-10-15T03:58:45 < Ecco> qyx: I'm aware of that, and I think the part I'm looking at has an option to retain *some* SRAM in standby. my plan was to ditch it tho
2023-10-15T03:58:50 < Ecco> What's the problem of going through reset?
2023-10-15T04:00:15 < qyx> not a problem if you know what you are doing
2023-10-15T04:01:27 < Ecco> ok :)
2023-10-15T04:01:31 < Ecco> Hopefully I do :)
2023-10-15T04:02:37 < Ecco> Tool recommendation: have you guys heard of Nordic's Power Profiler Kit?
2023-10-15T04:03:16 < Ecco> It's $99 and apparently can measure sub-µA current at 100Khz
2023-10-15T04:09:12 < Ecco> Also, would you guys have any recommendations for some electronic tweezers (budget around $10 maybe?) and for an USB oscilloscope? 
2023-10-15T04:10:17 < Ecco> I've bought a Rigol DS10542 before, and I kind of like it. But for some reason I'm convinced a PC with the "right" capture card *has* to be better. Am I correct?
2023-10-15T04:16:36 < qyx> pc has not enough knobs
2023-10-15T04:17:47 < Ecco> :-D
2023-10-15T04:18:09 < fenugrec> and your capture card mfg will gladly abandon support for your software / OS in a few years
2023-10-15T04:18:22 < Ecco> Well, yeah, but I'm currently browsing https://sigrok.org/wiki/Supported_hardware
2023-10-15T04:18:50 < Ecco> Apparently it works with some cheapo logic analyzer I can get off of Amazon for less than $10!
2023-10-15T04:18:59 < Ecco> 8 channels, 24MHz. Nothing crazy, but I mean, $10
2023-10-15T04:19:36 < fenugrec> cheap LA != bench scope
2023-10-15T04:19:56 < Ecco> I had a Salea Logic 8 before, and it worked pretty well. They raised the price tho. But at least I know from personal experience that a logic analyzer *can* definitely work with a PC GUI (as in, no need for knobs)
2023-10-15T04:20:13 < Ecco> I was wondering if the same was true for oscilloscopes or if, for some reason, it needed a dedicated screen
2023-10-15T04:21:23 < fenugrec> setting trigger levels, vert / horiz scale, on screen, will get old very fast. Not enough knobs.
2023-10-15T04:21:42 < zyp> you'll probably want something supported by https://www.ngscopeclient.org/
2023-10-15T04:22:14 < Ecco> Well, if anything, I personally found the user interface of my Rigol scope quite annoying to use
2023-10-15T04:22:25 < Ecco> it was rather intuitive, but felt slow
2023-10-15T04:22:36 < fenugrec> zyp how have I never heard about that. Thanks, bookmarked
2023-10-15T04:22:37 < Ecco> but again, I'm no pro, and only ever used it a few times
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2023-10-15T07:46:36 < machinehum> zyp: Took me four times
2023-10-15T07:46:43 < machinehum> Using some techniques I invented
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2023-10-15T16:06:23 < mawk> Steffanx https://youtu.be/MxF7oAMBGeU
2023-10-15T16:06:28 < mawk> have some happy hardcore 
2023-10-15T16:08:39 < Ecco> So would you guys have any recommendadtion for a cheap USB oscilloscope that I'd use with either Sigrok or ngscopeclient?
2023-10-15T16:13:47 < Steffanx> Sigrok has a list of supported device right? So does ngscopeclient. Cant recommend anything because i dont use those tools ;)
2023-10-15T16:14:00 < Steffanx> *devices
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2023-10-15T16:39:41 < srk> Ecco: you can try sigrok and pulseview with rigol you have. pulseview is pretty rudimentary compared to ngscopeclient but it worked for me over usb/eth few years ago
2023-10-15T16:41:18 < fenugrec> dj mawk https://youtu.be/YUVcLhL6k9Y?t=869
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2023-10-15T19:28:08 < Ecco> I'm looking for a SMD switch that would be activated by pushing on the *side*.
2023-10-15T19:28:17 < Ecco> It's a very common part, yet I can't find them on lcsc
2023-10-15T19:28:31 < Ecco> I've got a million tactile switches that you press from the top
2023-10-15T19:28:56 < Ecco> Like this one for example: https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/Tactile-Switches_SHOU-HAN-TS4543CJ-250gf-009_C5359331.html
2023-10-15T19:29:58 < fenugrec> you mean like  E-switch TL3340 or Würth WS-TASU
2023-10-15T19:30:06 < fenugrec> BTW those are garbage, do not recomment
2023-10-15T19:30:53 < Ecco> Yeah, kind of indeed
2023-10-15T19:31:11 < Ecco> Well, actually exactly like those
2023-10-15T19:31:41 < fenugrec> you want one that has more mechanical support, those I mentioned tend to rip pads off
2023-10-15T19:32:29 < Ecco> ok :)
2023-10-15T19:32:41 < Ecco> So maybe with a thu-hole ground?
2023-10-15T19:34:10 < fenugrec> that's what I would aim for, personally. I got so angry having to repair some of these I made a video and posted up some pics https://qcte.ca/audio/zoom_h4n/
2023-10-15T19:34:51 < Ecco> Oh wow
2023-10-15T19:34:57 < Ecco> I *think* I've found some
2023-10-15T19:34:57 < Ecco> https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/Tactile-Switches_SHOU-HAN-TS36CA-0-6_C2681481.html
2023-10-15T19:35:10 < Ecco> Surprisingly I can't seem to find a filter specifically for those
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2023-10-15T20:28:08 < qyx> smt tactile switches, right angle?
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2023-10-15T21:13:49 < mawk> why
2023-10-15T21:14:06 < mawk> do you want them to rip apart after 5 uses
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2023-10-15T22:17:57 < antto> single-use switch
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2023-10-15T22:58:27 < karlp> pulseview at least works on my machine .pro, unlike ngscopeclient...
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2023-10-15T23:20:14 < zyp> yeah, that's my issue too
2023-10-15T23:20:22 < zyp> or rather
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2023-10-15T23:20:39 < zyp> ngscopeclient seems really nice, except a pain to build
2023-10-15T23:21:21 < qyx> b-b-build?
2023-10-15T23:23:57 < zyp> yeah, AFAIK it's not mainstream enough that there's binary packages of it yet
2023-10-15T23:24:57 < zyp> and IIRC last I looked at it, it had some deps that were also not in debian package repositories and I lost patience before I got all the deps sorted
2023-10-15T23:26:43 < qyx> so out of 10 boards I got 6 working on first try
2023-10-15T23:27:07 < qyx> that's 4032 pads soldered correctly at least
2023-10-15T23:27:41 < qyx> so the first erroneous one doesn't ADC, VDD and VDDA are okay, who-I-am can be read over SPI, it just doesn't convert values
2023-10-15T23:28:06 < qyx> that's an interesting failure mode
2023-10-15T23:28:19 < qyx> and I am lazy to switch on the scope
2023-10-15T23:31:58 < qyx> also not exposing a GND attach point should be an unforgivable sin
2023-10-15T23:41:00 < karlp> zyp:for me, even after the _many_ hoops of getting it built, it locked up and crashed my desktop environment trying to use the built in demo source...
2023-10-15T23:41:27 < karlp> the "nothing is familiar, we built the ui from scratch for PER4manc3!!!" was not really encouraging either.
2023-10-15T23:41:39 < karlp> I might look again in a year or two, but ... 
2023-10-15T23:48:47 < Steffanx> I just installed it on windows. Seemed to work, but also outdated. Unless the just the date was outdated.
--- Day changed ma loka 16 2023
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2023-10-16T11:31:29 < qyx> hm, have you ever seen anything like an inductor 8 mm high but serving as a capsense button? dia of about 10 mm or so
2023-10-16T11:32:00 < qyx> I would do the button on the PCB if I didn't need it to be a slightly above it (=~ 8 mm)
2023-10-16T11:32:18 < qyx> and I can't move the PCB up nor use a flexpcb or anything
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2023-10-16T12:35:14 < karlp> does it need to be capsense?
2023-10-16T12:45:59 < qyx> oh I actually meant a capsense sensor not a button
2023-10-16T12:46:47 < qyx> no it can be inductive too, the other part is metallic
2023-10-16T12:47:10 < qyx> but I just wanted to use AD7147 and call it a day
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2023-10-16T15:28:15 < fenugrec> i wonder if a 3mm LED on standoffs, in series with a large cap, would work
2023-10-16T15:31:52 < fenugrec> eh probably not
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2023-10-16T17:34:49 < ventYl> I've got a guy on Linkedin asking me if I want to do some eye-oh-teah stuff on nRF or know anyone competent. do I know anyone competent and willing to take such freelance project?
2023-10-16T17:35:35 < Ecco> Question: 0402 for prototyping: yay or nay? I've done my fair share of 0603 but was wondering if 0402 was doable
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2023-10-16T17:35:51 < Ecco> (I also got a cheap stereo microscope for like $30, those are *awesome*)
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2023-10-16T18:07:04 < gurki> Ecco: which one?
2023-10-16T18:07:10 < gurki> im interested :)
2023-10-16T18:12:47 < PaulFertser> Ecco: hand soldering not too hard but why bother? Few components around RF path is ok, but when you can avoid it, why add to the work?
2023-10-16T18:17:31 < Ecco> gurki: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DUIST02/
2023-10-16T18:17:53 < Ecco> Honestly, I'm amazed by the quality for less than $40
2023-10-16T18:18:43 < Ecco> PaulFertser: I'm not sure I understand your point about RF
2023-10-16T18:19:29 < PaulFertser> Ecco: many reference designs for nRF51 or some such expect you to have few 0402 components around the antenna feeder.
2023-10-16T18:20:09 < PaulFertser> So probably better not deviate from that. But other than that, why do you see any need to use 0402 for prototyping?
2023-10-16T18:20:45 < zyp> I prototype with 0402 nowadays
2023-10-16T18:20:53 < zyp> then again, I mostly outsource assembly anyway
2023-10-16T18:22:03 < PaulFertser> Ecco: heh, amazon shows me $56 + $21.6 shipping for your link
2023-10-16T18:31:05 < Ecco> PaulFertser: Super weird, it currently shows $38.99 + free shipping for me. Are you in the US?
2023-10-16T18:31:27 < PaulFertser> Ecco: no, not in the US.
2023-10-16T18:31:29 < Ecco> zyp: who do you use?
2023-10-16T18:31:43 < zyp> mostly jlcpcb for oneoffs
2023-10-16T18:31:45 < Ecco> PaulFertser: Probably the reason whey then. But then maybe you can find a local Amazon?
2023-10-16T18:32:05 < Ecco> How do you provide them with parts? I've never done that. Can they get them off of LCSC for you?
2023-10-16T18:32:17 < zyp> jlcpcb *is* lcsc
2023-10-16T18:32:21 < zyp> same corp
2023-10-16T18:32:26 < Ecco> ok
2023-10-16T18:32:30 < zyp> so yes
2023-10-16T18:32:40 < Ecco> Is it expensive to have them mount the parts?
2023-10-16T18:32:41 < zyp> and they can also get stuff from digikey/mouser/etc
2023-10-16T18:32:45 < PaulFertser> Ecco: I think local amazon is what showed me the price, they checked by IP geolocation apparently.
2023-10-16T18:33:02 < zyp> how much is expensive?
2023-10-16T18:33:07 < Ecco> I don't know :-)
2023-10-16T18:33:18 < zyp> IMO it's very affordable
2023-10-16T18:33:39 < Ecco> I'll need to look it up
2023-10-16T18:33:40 < PaulFertser> Ecco: just check the PCBA section on jlcpcb website
2023-10-16T18:33:53 < PaulFertser> I'd say impressively affordable.
2023-10-16T18:34:10 < zyp> starts at roughly $10 plus BOM cost, and then another $3 for any non-basic BOM line
2023-10-16T18:34:11 < PaulFertser> But you can get /only/ LCSC parts assembled, right?
2023-10-16T18:34:17 < zyp> no
2023-10-16T18:34:30 < zyp> they order from digikey/mouser/etc for you
2023-10-16T18:34:52 < zyp> and recently they started allowing you to provide parts as well, but I haven't tried that yet
2023-10-16T18:34:57 < PaulFertser> Oh cool!
2023-10-16T18:35:15 < zyp> IIRC there were some restrictions that provided parts had to be sent from china to them
2023-10-16T18:37:13 < Ecco> That's pretty cool. They actually have a sample gerber file you can play around with to see a quote
2023-10-16T18:37:17 < Ecco> it's pretty amazing
2023-10-16T18:38:04 < Ecco> I guess you need to send them the BoM in a given format though
2023-10-16T18:38:11 < Ecco> That's really cool, I might as well do that
2023-10-16T18:38:19 < Ecco> But I kinda like to solder tho :)
2023-10-16T18:38:19 < zyp> csv or xlsx or whatever
2023-10-16T18:38:42 < zyp> they have sample files of BOM and P&P files too
2023-10-16T18:39:00 < Ecco> pretty cool
2023-10-16T18:39:11 < Ecco> I also see they offer the option to only assemble 2 out of 5
2023-10-16T18:39:14 < Ecco> that's a pretty nice compromise
2023-10-16T18:39:19 < zyp> yeah
2023-10-16T18:39:31 < Ecco> Is it possible to also have them just make *one* shipment
2023-10-16T18:39:38 < Ecco> I was abotu to place two orders, one from LCSC and one from JLCPCB
2023-10-16T18:39:48 < Ecco> And since shipping is definitely the most expensive thing
2023-10-16T18:39:50 < zyp> no
2023-10-16T18:40:00 < Ecco> that… sucks :-)
2023-10-16T18:40:19 < Ecco> SO maybe it's cheaper to just go for the assembly?
2023-10-16T18:40:27 < zyp> I believe they used to be able to combine jlcpcb and lcsc orders before, but apparently that was too much hassle with customs, so it got discontinued
2023-10-16T18:40:34 < Ecco> ok
2023-10-16T18:43:52 < fenugrec> i'll echo Paul's statements... why bother 0402 unless you're really short on space. If you need to rework or patch, just more of a pain
2023-10-16T18:45:50 < fenugrec> and in some cases 0603 can make routing easier, can run more traces between the pads than 0402
2023-10-16T18:46:07 < zyp> IMO mostly because it's annoying to fit a bunch of huge passives around an IC
2023-10-16T19:01:58 < Ecco> Makes sense indeed
2023-10-16T19:02:17 < Ecco> Another dumb question: I've done a few 2-layers PCBs, but no 4 layers one yet
2023-10-16T19:02:45 < Ecco> I think I heard that in 4 layers you're supposed to dedicate some layers to GND and/or VCC? Is that correct?
2023-10-16T19:03:21 < Ecco> When I did 2 layers I tried to use a polygon pour to fill most of *both* side with ground "pours" which were actually pretty useful because then most GND pads are automagically connected
2023-10-16T19:03:59 < Ecco> I guess I could keep on doing 2 layers, but sometimes it's a bit annoying and 4 layers seems to be somewhat standard now - at least it doesn't seem to be more expensive than 2 on JLCPCB
2023-10-16T19:04:55 < zyp> yeah, most of what I've done at jlcpcb is 4 or 6 layers
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2023-10-16T19:05:59 < zyp> here's the last stuff I did: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/lsTse.jpg
2023-10-16T19:06:23 < zyp> the huge board is 2L, because, 4L gets expensive when you want something larger than 100x100mm
2023-10-16T19:06:31 < zyp> the other five are 4L
2023-10-16T19:06:56 < Ecco> What's the right one? Looks kind of like a SBC
2023-10-16T19:07:20 < zyp> yeah, it's a socket for a colorlight i5
2023-10-16T19:07:40 < Ecco> oh ok :)
2023-10-16T19:08:23 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/aizay.jpg
2023-10-16T19:09:01 < Ecco> Nice :)
2023-10-16T19:09:17 < Ecco> So how did you use the 4 layers? Is one of them just GND?
2023-10-16T19:09:57 < zyp> yeah, usually ground in 2 and power in 3
2023-10-16T19:10:37 < zyp> depends a bit if/where I've got any fast signals
2023-10-16T19:10:40 < Ecco> so the *outer* layers are the signal ones?
2023-10-16T19:10:58 < zyp> yeah
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2023-10-16T19:11:27 < zyp> consider how all components are mounted on the outer layers, so that's where all signals will originate and end :)
2023-10-16T19:11:38 < Ecco> So then you need at least one via per component?
2023-10-16T19:11:43 < Ecco> (to ground them)
2023-10-16T19:11:53 < zyp> yeah
2023-10-16T19:12:02 < Ecco> (well, assuming all are grounded on at least one pin, which indeed is not always the case)
2023-10-16T19:12:19 < Ecco> And I guess nothing prevents you from having a GND *trace* on the outer layers
2023-10-16T19:12:38 < zyp> no, lots of people still do ground pours in outer layers
2023-10-16T19:12:41 < zyp> I prefer not to
2023-10-16T19:12:44 < Ecco> ok
2023-10-16T19:12:52 < Ecco> So there's no "hard" rule?
2023-10-16T19:13:01 < Ecco> or even best practice?
2023-10-16T19:13:17 < zyp> depends who you ask :)
2023-10-16T19:13:50 < zyp> traditionally having pours were recommended to avoid having to etch away almost all the copper in fairly empty layers
2023-10-16T19:14:10 < zyp> since that could lead to issues with overetching
2023-10-16T19:14:27 < zyp> in reality though, I've never had that problem on anything I've made
2023-10-16T19:14:58 < Ecco> hm, makes sense. From my personal experience, it's also convient to "auto-route" most GND connections
2023-10-16T19:15:04 < Ecco> but I get the original idea
2023-10-16T19:15:26 < zyp> IMO that's bad practice in a multilayer design
2023-10-16T19:16:09 < zyp> you always want the shortest path to ground, so explicitly having to place a via at every ground pin to pass DRC is good practice IMO
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2023-10-16T19:16:53 < zyp> otherwise you risk having a ground return that needs to take a long detour to find a via to get down to the actual ground plane
2023-10-16T19:18:58 < zyp> my take is that ground pours on outer layers doesn't hurt as long as you take care to stitch them down the same way you would in a good 2L design
2023-10-16T19:19:49 < zyp> but they also don't really help when you've already got a good dedicated inner ground plane, and so I don't find it worthwhile to make the effort to stitch it down
2023-10-16T19:21:04 < zyp> and when you don't stitch it down, you get all these little antennas where it pours in between something and ends up at a dead end
2023-10-16T19:22:28 < zyp> in other words, no pour at all is better than a bad pour, and taking the effort to making a good pour is not worthwhile
2023-10-16T19:22:31 < Ecco> Hmm, makes sense
2023-10-16T19:22:32 < Ecco> Thanks!
2023-10-16T19:22:44 < Ecco> So do you just etch away most of the outer layers?
2023-10-16T19:22:50 < Ecco> Or just have unconnected pours?
2023-10-16T19:23:35 < zyp> yeah, I have it etched away
2023-10-16T19:23:38 < zyp> most is relative
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2023-10-16T19:24:10 < Ecco> ok :)
2023-10-16T19:24:12 < zyp> unless I'm going for a given form factor, I tend to not make boards larger than what I need for components and signals
2023-10-16T19:34:38 < jpa-> i leave extra space if there will be separate revisions of enclosure and pcb
2023-10-16T19:35:33 < jpa-> for big pcbs, a pour on outer layers can reduce warping
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2023-10-16T20:18:46 < fenugrec> I just like dense 2L boards. https://filebin.net/jutlvmvpff80ep6m/screenshot-46b16ed6.png could've moved some components to the other side but there's a point of diminishing returns vs  layout effort
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2023-10-16T23:07:28 < machinehum> hallo
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2023-10-16T23:41:15 < Steffanx> Gutentag meinherr machinehum 
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2023-10-16T23:54:32 < machinehum> Steffanx: You live in Germany?
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2023-10-16T23:56:15 < machinehum> wtf it happened again
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2023-10-16T23:56:46 < machinehum> Enabling pullup on SWDIO breaking flashing...
2023-10-16T23:57:47 -!- hexo [~hexo@user/hexo] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2023-10-16T23:58:12 < Steffanx> No machinehum 
2023-10-16T23:58:12 -!- hexo [~hexo@user/hexo] has joined ##stm32
2023-10-16T23:59:05 < machinehum> CH?
--- Day changed ti loka 17 2023
2023-10-17T00:00:07 < machinehum> Or you just know how to say hello in German heh
2023-10-17T00:00:20 < machinehum> This pullup issue is bullshit
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2023-10-17T00:01:48 < Steffanx> I'm dutch, machinehum 
2023-10-17T00:02:05 < machinehum> sweet
2023-10-17T00:02:59 < machinehum> PaulFertser: Does openocd have a way to hold the part in reset longer or something...?
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2023-10-17T00:04:01 < PaulFertser> machinehum: you can connect under reset. How long do you need?
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2023-10-17T00:04:19 < PaulFertser> reset_config srst_only connect_assert_srst
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2023-10-17T00:06:00 < machinehum> Ahh yes, I can connect under reset
2023-10-17T00:06:30 < machinehum> https://pastebin.com/raw/rWDGWHLg
2023-10-17T00:07:24 < machinehum> openocd -f interface/stlink.cfg -f target/stm32g0x.cfg That connects fine when I hold the reset
2023-10-17T00:07:25 < PaulFertser> Just add that reset_config command before program.
2023-10-17T00:07:40 < PaulFertser> Assuming you have reset line physically connected.
2023-10-17T00:07:50 < machinehum> Yes it is
2023-10-17T00:08:03 < PaulFertser> -c "reset_config ..; program"
2023-10-17T00:12:21 < machinehum> hmm
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2023-10-17T00:12:43 < PaulFertser> machinehum: what's wrong?
2023-10-17T00:13:38 < machinehum> I'm dumb
2023-10-17T00:13:39 < machinehum> https://pastebin.com/raw/1kAhCZYh
2023-10-17T00:13:41 < machinehum> I think that's working
2023-10-17T00:13:57 < PaulFertser> A German person would probably write Guen Tag Mein Herr machinehum :)
2023-10-17T00:14:07 < machinehum> Make is throwing an error but I think it's just from openocd's Warn's
2023-10-17T00:14:32 < machinehum> PaulFertser: I see
2023-10-17T00:14:38 < machinehum> Moving to CH in a few months
2023-10-17T00:14:42 < machinehum> Wife got a job
2023-10-17T00:15:01 < machinehum> I'm just the drag along that needs to take a german language course
2023-10-17T00:15:38 < PaulFertser> machinehum: yes, it can't connect after reset and returns an error. Not sure how to handle it properly in a Makefile, ignoring would be a bad idea in general.
2023-10-17T00:16:23 < PaulFertser> machinehum: not bad, learning languages can be fun
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2023-10-17T00:16:35 < machinehum> Hard for me
2023-10-17T00:17:29 < machinehum> Not sure if I'll be shopping around for some work over there, or continue consulting
2023-10-17T00:17:59 < machinehum> qyx: Runs 9A, nothing on the board goes higher than 60C
2023-10-17T00:18:22 < machinehum> I melted my connecter plugged into the barrel jack though
2023-10-17T00:18:45 < PaulFertser> Have you asked Tectu/jbo for opportunities? ;)
2023-10-17T00:19:48 < machinehum> lol, not yet
2023-10-17T00:19:52 < machinehum> Are you still in RU?
2023-10-17T00:23:21 < PaulFertser> No, moved to IL.
2023-10-17T00:25:25 < jbo> machinehum, what are are you moving to?
2023-10-17T00:26:41 < machinehum> Basel
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2023-10-17T00:27:05 < machinehum> But if the opportunity was right I'm willing to comute anywhere
2023-10-17T00:27:13 < machinehum> And if they'll take me heh
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2023-10-17T00:37:00 < jbo> nice, good luck. let me know if you need to know weird local stuff
2023-10-17T00:37:45 < machinehum> ty, yeah one issue is I can't bring all my gear. So I'm hoping to become a member of a makerspace
2023-10-17T00:37:56 < machinehum> PaulFertser: Good idea, you like it?
2023-10-17T00:38:29 < jbo> I'm in a remote area. so I don't know makerspaces in your area. I had to build my own.
2023-10-17T00:39:10 < machinehum> jbo: That's what I did in Canada, same thing, remote.
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2023-10-17T00:40:25 < jbo> you're moving from canada?
2023-10-17T00:47:14 < Steffanx> Are you moving from swisserland?
2023-10-17T00:48:20 < machinehum> Canada -> Switzerland
2023-10-17T00:48:48 < machinehum> jbo: You like skiing/mountaineering?
2023-10-17T00:53:26 < jbo> machinehum, totally. I am the most outdoorsy person around
2023-10-17T00:53:39 < jbo> machinehum, I am in the southern, alps part.
2023-10-17T00:54:10 < PaulFertser> machinehum: some things I like, some I do not. It's a whole different world, unique in many aspects. Will be happy to discuss after the war ends.
2023-10-17T00:54:42 < machinehum> jbo: Nice
2023-10-17T00:55:05 < machinehum> Yeah coming from BC both me and my wife and into climbing, skiing, etc...
2023-10-17T00:55:31 < machinehum> Excited to check out ch, we vacationed for two weeks back in feb
2023-10-17T00:55:33 < machinehum> Loved it
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2023-10-17T00:55:48 < jbo> glad to hear that!
2023-10-17T00:55:59 < machinehum> TBH was pretty unimpressed by the food, but we like to cook our own meals anyways
2023-10-17T00:56:37 < machinehum> Like 50chf for a burger and beer lol 
2023-10-17T00:57:06 < machinehum> But I'm happy because beer in the store isn't that expensive compared to Canada
2023-10-17T00:57:12 < jbo> machinehum, yeah, food wise there are definitely better countries around.
2023-10-17T00:57:32 < machinehum> Transit is awesome... I hate driving
2023-10-17T00:57:52 < machinehum> Taking a train to go ski touring simply isn't a think over here
2023-10-17T00:58:00 < jbo> bro, trains fucking rule <3
2023-10-17T00:58:24 < machinehum> You need a 4x4 vehicle, with chains, potentially a sled
2023-10-17T00:58:39 < machinehum> To even get to the bottom where you can start skinning up
2023-10-17T00:58:55 < jbo> yeah totally not that extreme here. at least not anymore.
2023-10-17T00:59:19 < jbo> when I was a little boy we frequently "drowned in snow" where I live. now it's like: "yay a little bit of snow"
2023-10-17T00:59:26 < machinehum> Seems as though there are some people over there that ski off piste in resorts without safty equiptment? So called "Freeskiiers" lol \?
2023-10-17T00:59:35 < machinehum> jbo: Things are changing like that here as well
2023-10-17T01:00:29 < Steffanx> Dont let jbo tell where he is gets most sun hours of all swisserland
2023-10-17T01:00:43 < Steffanx> ;)
2023-10-17T01:01:01 < jbo> machinehum, all my friends who do that are trained in mountain & avalance rescue, have proper radio equipment, shovels etc. with them. but yeah, you'll definitely also just find idiots here too :D
2023-10-17T01:01:16 < jbo> Steffanx, will you visit again?
2023-10-17T01:01:59 < Steffanx> Alright, but when it's not rainy or too warm..
2023-10-17T01:02:42 < jbo> yeah, the weather when you visited was... rare.
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2023-10-17T08:10:35 < qyx> jbo: no training needed, just call the paw patrol
2023-10-17T08:13:58 < qyx> machinehum: nice
2023-10-17T08:21:57 < qyx> also re: skiing, I wouldn't dare to leave nice tidy ski slopes
2023-10-17T08:22:07 < qyx> there are yetis and stuff outside
2023-10-17T08:24:50 < qyx> and regarding the resorts eg. here, there are some with all the infrastructure built well like parking lots, food, ski buses, etc but you pay for it 50-80e a day (iirc last season)
2023-10-17T08:25:04 < qyx> like the Vlhova's home resort in Jasna
2023-10-17T08:25:41 < qyx> and there are smaller ones where you can ski for 15-25e/day, but usually much older equipment and lifts and you have to get there somehow
2023-10-17T08:27:00 < qyx> but we always managed to do it with 2WD
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2023-10-17T09:26:22 < mawk> take a rifle with you to hunt the yéti
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2023-10-17T10:47:57 < Steffanx> Is that what you did while you were in Brussels, mawk? (Assuming you read the news)
2023-10-17T10:48:06 < mawk> lol
2023-10-17T10:48:11 < mawk> no
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2023-10-17T11:36:24 < mawk> https://youtu.be/nrk-0BeMoag
2023-10-17T11:36:32 < mawk> listen to this sweet tekno karlp 
2023-10-17T11:36:52 < mawk> very topical for ##stm32
2023-10-17T11:37:00 < mawk> Free Calotek & Archétype — Multiprise
2023-10-17T11:37:12 < mawk> multiprise means power strip
2023-10-17T11:44:30 < ventYl> the link says nrf
2023-10-17T12:30:47 < Steffanx> Obsessed with nRF much ventYl ?
2023-10-17T12:31:18 < Steffanx> Or nRK?
2023-10-17T12:33:40 < ventYl> just disappointed
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2023-10-17T12:34:22 < ventYl> but NXP helped me with that a lot, MKL broaden my view and shown me entirely different way how a MCU can be shitty
2023-10-17T12:43:08 < Steffanx> Will you try mcp430 next?
2023-10-17T12:43:27 < Steffanx> MSP*
2023-10-17T12:44:01 < karlp> better be better than that the last shit mawk...
2023-10-17T12:45:25 < karlp> well, it's ok, but a bit simplistic.
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2023-10-17T12:50:42 < mawk> it's the spirit of early techno 
2023-10-17T12:50:47 < mawk> it's meant to be minimalist
2023-10-17T12:50:49 < mawk> and long
2023-10-17T12:50:54 < mawk> with a build-up
2023-10-17T12:51:01 < mawk> like the spiral tribe stuff
2023-10-17T13:42:28 < srk> noice
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2023-10-17T14:27:30 < mawk> https://reddit.com/r/thenetherlands/s/I3LoGJWnjo
2023-10-17T14:27:31 < mawk> lol
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2023-10-17T15:57:37 < karlp> hrm, no, it felt like no build up, just... layer one, never finished.
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2023-10-17T16:43:52 < jbo> msp430 was nice
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2023-10-17T17:25:49 < Steffanx> You alright jbo?
2023-10-17T17:27:03 < jbo> yeah, and you?
2023-10-17T17:42:50 < mawk> https://i.imgur.com/NqUIAu3.png
2023-10-17T17:42:52 < mawk> where short??
2023-10-17T17:43:13 < mawk> the battery isn't connected so forget the lower part
2023-10-17T17:43:22 < mawk> I measure a short between the two power plug leads
2023-10-17T17:43:35 < mawk> and in particular between TP5/TP6/TP1 and TP11/GND
2023-10-17T17:43:48 < mawk> is it the TVS that failed short?
2023-10-17T17:44:04 < mawk> this one: https://www.littelfuse.com/media?resourcetype=datasheets&itemid=37388813-0d6d-4329-969b-1aa8b7614ac1&filename=littelfuse-tvs-diode-smcj-datasheet
2023-10-17T17:45:56 < PaulFertser> Give it enough current, you'll feel where the short is.
2023-10-17T17:46:43 < BrainDamage> it's probably L1 being shorted
2023-10-17T17:46:52 < mawk> I did PaulFertser , and it burned my finger
2023-10-17T17:46:58 < mawk> and I wasn't really more advanced
2023-10-17T17:47:08 < mawk> can that happen BrainDamage ?
2023-10-17T17:47:27 < BrainDamage> if D3 was shorted, you would still measure the coil'impedance towards gnd from Tp1
2023-10-17T17:48:26 < mawk> why? doesn't that happen only with AC?
2023-10-17T17:48:49 < mawk> there shouldn't be any direct galvanic path between the two parts of the choke right?
2023-10-17T17:49:04 < mawk> I measure around 5 ohm to ground
2023-10-17T17:49:12 < mawk> from TP5 or TP6
2023-10-17T17:49:14 < BrainDamage> ideally no, but if it's melted, all bets are off
2023-10-17T17:49:38 < mawk> and same for TP1
2023-10-17T17:49:41 < BrainDamage> and how much rom tp1 to tp6?
2023-10-17T17:49:55 < PaulFertser> mawk: the TVS burnt your finger? Then it's faulty for sure, you didn't put over 18 V over it.
2023-10-17T17:50:15 < mawk> 0.2
2023-10-17T17:50:20 < mawk> PaulFertser: the leads of the power adapter
2023-10-17T17:50:38 < mawk> yeah the adapter crashes to 2V or something when I plug it in
2023-10-17T17:50:55 < mawk> I guess I can pour some alcohol and see if it fizzes
2023-10-17T17:52:08 < BrainDamage> datashit says 50mOhm dc resistance for the coil: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/tdk-corporation/ACP3225-102-2P-T000/3024970
2023-10-17T17:52:33 < BrainDamage> if your mm can measure that, check that the coils measure that
2023-10-17T17:52:57 < mawk> alcohol says it's the TVS
2023-10-17T17:53:00 < mawk> that gets hot
2023-10-17T17:53:13 < mawk> it's boiling the IPA by waves, as the power adapter voltage crashes down and goes back up
2023-10-17T17:53:15 < mawk> fun to see
2023-10-17T17:54:42 < mawk> 0.2 on both coils BrainDamage 
2023-10-17T17:54:52 < mawk> but the multimeter's range doesn't go much lower so it's not precise
2023-10-17T17:55:16 < BrainDamage> that's probably your leads
2023-10-17T17:57:43 < PaulFertser> mawk: you were supposed to use lab power supply for this test
2023-10-17T17:58:25 < PaulFertser> But looks like it's TVS, yes.
2023-10-17T17:58:41 < karlp> why is C2 only 35V?
2023-10-17T17:58:56 < BrainDamage> cheaper
2023-10-17T17:59:11 < karlp> says it has overvoltage protectionto 60V, doesn't seem like a good plan.
2023-10-17T17:59:30 < karlp> putting a lot of faith in D3..
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2023-10-17T18:36:46 < mawk> I removed the TVS diode and the short is gone
2023-10-17T18:36:57 < mawk> but if I plug in the board again it might die again 
2023-10-17T18:37:02 < mawk> and this time without protection 
2023-10-17T18:37:05 < mawk> well there's a fuse I guess 
2023-10-17T18:37:25 < BrainDamage> add more alcohol and it'll take care of its disposal
2023-10-17T18:37:47 < mawk> lol
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2023-10-17T19:16:45 < machinehum> qyx: Where you from? Slovakia
2023-10-17T19:32:09 < machinehum> What's people's goto for detecting a higher voltage from a GPIO? https://i.imgur.com/aYfMixw.png
2023-10-17T19:32:12 < machinehum> It's 12V
2023-10-17T19:47:34 < specing> resistor divider?
2023-10-17T19:50:08 < PaulFertser> mawk: is the fuse overrated or the power supply underrated? It was supposed to blow when TVS shorted.
2023-10-17T19:57:15 < machinehum> specing: Yeah but to add protection as well
2023-10-17T19:57:21 < specing> machinehum: that looks about how I did it
2023-10-17T19:57:25 < machinehum> Incase it goes over 12V somehow
2023-10-17T19:57:27 < specing> one zener
2023-10-17T19:57:32 < machinehum> lil zener
2023-10-17T19:57:34 < machinehum> k
2023-10-17T19:57:46 < machinehum> Seems reasonable
2023-10-17T19:58:22 < machinehum> I mean there's a 100k resistor in series w/ 12V or whatever so I'm thinking the pin probably wouldn't get damaged
2023-10-17T19:58:39 < specing> machinehum: if you're expecting 12V then make the divider larger? 1/4 of 12 is 3... close
2023-10-17T19:58:49 < machinehum> In and overvoltage event... there's also a 13.whatever TVS
2023-10-17T19:58:55 < machinehum> Yeah
2023-10-17T19:59:09 < machinehum> Move down to 2.5V of whatever
2023-10-17T19:59:35 < machinehum> I'm not expecting anything higher but the user might fuck something up and plug in a 24V somehow
2023-10-17T19:59:42 < machinehum> I mean shit's going haywire if that happens anyways
2023-10-17T19:59:45 < specing> yep
2023-10-17T20:00:18 < specing> if you're designing the stuff around the common barrel jacks then I wouldn't be surpsied
2023-10-17T20:00:34 < specing> I always double check PSU and device in case of barrel jacks..
2023-10-17T20:09:33 < qyx> machinehum: yeah
2023-10-17T20:15:05 < machinehum> I got my laptop stolen on a sleeper train in Slovenia, do you also have beef with those fuckers?
2023-10-17T20:17:29 < qyx> I have never been stolen anything except a calculator back in the high school in 2000 or so
2023-10-17T20:18:09 < qyx> also not beaten, kidnapped, detainedm, whatever
2023-10-17T20:18:10 < machinehum> Slovenian took it?
2023-10-17T20:18:29 < qyx> so a pretty boring life tbh
2023-10-17T20:18:35 < qyx> slovenia != slovakia
2023-10-17T20:18:45 < qyx> just for the record
2023-10-17T20:21:50 -!- nerozero [~nerozero@87.253.63.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
2023-10-17T20:23:52 < mawk> I've been beaten, almost knifed, arrested, restrained to a hospital bed, detained by supermarket security, phone stolen a few times on the street
2023-10-17T20:24:28 < mawk> held against my will in a psych ward also
2023-10-17T20:25:30 < mawk> a cop stole my pills once also
2023-10-17T20:26:19 < mawk> I've been expelled from a country by heavily armed border patrol agents once too 
2023-10-17T20:26:22 < mawk> thanks Denmark
2023-10-17T20:29:32 < mawk> both I guess PaulFertser 
2023-10-17T20:29:48 < mawk> it's a medical power supply but that probably doesn't mean anything
2023-10-17T20:30:09 < mawk> also it was shorting by bursts, as the voltage collapsed and rose again
2023-10-17T20:30:22 < mawk> so giving time to the fuse to cool down
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2023-10-17T20:30:43 < mawk> the fuse is good I measured around it
2023-10-17T20:31:42 < machinehum> Yeah I know lol
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2023-10-17T20:32:20 < machinehum> I don't actually have beef with Slovenian's I just think it's funny to play it up
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2023-10-17T20:42:54 < Steffanx> For some reason i always thought mr q was from Slovenia.
2023-10-17T20:43:01 < Steffanx> is
2023-10-17T20:59:15 < qyx> howis it possible that you know who is winning the elections here and not knowing where I am from
2023-10-17T21:05:08 -!- ferdna_ [~ferdna@user/ferdna] has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
2023-10-17T21:07:41 < machinehum> Is using 2x LTV-356T a stupid way to do optoisolated uart
2023-10-17T21:09:00 < machinehum> I just wanna do like 9600 baud or whatever
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2023-10-17T21:21:47 < Steffanx> This was years ago qyx .. nowadays I know
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2023-10-17T21:28:49 < jbo> balloons
2023-10-17T21:45:51 < Steffanx> You alright jbo?
2023-10-17T21:47:40 < jbo> yeah, and you?
2023-10-17T21:51:19 < zyp> and me
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2023-10-17T23:37:50 < Steffanx> Yeah me is fine too, jbo 
2023-10-17T23:37:57 < jbo> that is good to hear <3
2023-10-17T23:38:02 < Steffanx> Yay
2023-10-17T23:38:16 < Steffanx> As in: could be better, could be worse 
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--- Day changed ke loka 18 2023
2023-10-18T00:07:15 < jbo> that's the preferred state of affairs IMHO
2023-10-18T00:40:30 < Ecco> I'd like to drive a piezo buzzer from an STM32. Is there anything smarter than plugging it straigh into a GPIO (and GND), and then outputting a square wave on said GPIO at the buzzer's resonant freq?
2023-10-18T00:41:06 < zyp> might want to transistor buffer it
2023-10-18T00:41:32 < Ecco> As in, drive it with a transistor? Why?
2023-10-18T00:41:55 < Ecco> (with like a transistor connected to GPIO, VDD, and one pin of the buzzer?)
2023-10-18T00:42:02 < zyp> how much power does it draw?
2023-10-18T00:42:21 < zyp> hmm, I think you need a halfbridge
2023-10-18T00:42:34 < Ecco> Good question. Let me check the datasheet
2023-10-18T00:42:40 < zyp> or even a full h-bridge if you want more sound out of it
2023-10-18T00:43:29 < zyp> we've got some projects at work that even have a boost converter in front of a buzzer driven by a h-bridge to increase volume
2023-10-18T00:43:46 < Ecco> So, datasheet says "Resonant Impedance = 350 ohm"
2023-10-18T00:44:19 < Ecco> so, I (maybe naively) assume it draws VDD^2/350ohms watts
2023-10-18T00:44:24 < Ecco> In my case VDD is 3V
2023-10-18T00:44:55 < zyp> around 10mA, bit on the high end for driving directly with gpio
2023-10-18T00:46:00 < Ecco> Last time I checked, STM32 GPIOs were rated 20mA
2023-10-18T00:46:32 < Ecco> Also, what's a halfbridge and/or a "full h-bridge"?
2023-10-18T00:47:00 < Ecco> I've also read about a guy on stackoverflow who said "I"m using 2 GPIOs instead of just one so I get double the voltage" but that just seems like BS to me
2023-10-18T00:47:09 < Ecco> (or I just totally misunderstood what he meant)
2023-10-18T00:47:19 < zyp> a halfbridge is a pair of high/low transistors
2023-10-18T00:47:29 < zyp> a fullbridge is two of those, one on each side
2023-10-18T00:47:36 < zyp> and yes, that'll double the effective voltage
2023-10-18T00:48:20 < zyp> when you drive it on one side, the voltage across it switches between 3V and 0V, when you drive it on both sides, the voltage switches between 3V and -3V
2023-10-18T00:48:26 < Ecco> Oh also, zyp, thanks for your idea for the 60Hz signal. I think it might indeed actually work!!
2023-10-18T00:48:37 < Ecco> Oh
2023-10-18T00:48:37 < zyp> 60Hz?
2023-10-18T00:48:56 < Ecco> I think you suggested using the RTC wake-up signal?
2023-10-18T00:49:04 < Ecco> Oh no sorry it was qyx
2023-10-18T00:49:10 < Ecco> I looked into it more and it does seem to work
2023-10-18T00:49:12 < zyp> ah, yeah, I saw that convo
2023-10-18T00:49:38 < Ecco> (the question was "Is there a way to generate a ~60Hz square signal while in standby)
2023-10-18T00:49:45 < Ecco> It might indeed be possible :)
2023-10-18T00:50:46 < Ecco> Thanks to your suggestion zyp (fullbridge) I found a really cool page
2023-10-18T00:50:46 < Ecco> https://www.cuidevices.com/blog/how-to-increase-the-audio-output-of-a-piezoelectric-transducer-buzzer
2023-10-18T00:50:58 < Ecco> It explains a bunch of possible ways :)
2023-10-18T00:52:51 < Ecco> This doc also has a bunch of possible circuits https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/40/piezo-43596.pdf
2023-10-18T00:53:04 < Ecco> I'm not sure I fully understand everything, so I'll need to study all of this
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2023-10-18T01:05:35 < jbo> :q
2023-10-18T01:05:39 < jbo> damit.
2023-10-18T01:11:07 < mawk> :q
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2023-10-18T01:20:49 < Ecco> :wq!
2023-10-18T01:22:39 < fenugrec> I like :cq to abort a git rebase / commit message
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2023-10-18T02:39:41 < Ecco> I'm looking at a MEMS accelerometer
2023-10-18T02:39:56 < Ecco> ST recommends a 10uF aluminium decoupling cap for the power supply
2023-10-18T02:40:03 < Ecco> 1/ Why such a large cap?
2023-10-18T02:40:07 < Ecco> 2/ Why aluminium?
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2023-10-18T02:44:41 < qyx> which one?
2023-10-18T02:46:11 < Ecco> lis2dw12
2023-10-18T02:46:23 < Ecco> Supposedly "ultra low power" (but aren't they all?)
2023-10-18T02:46:32 < qyx> definitely not
2023-10-18T02:46:51 < qyx> see lis3dhhc for example, which is a low noise one
2023-10-18T02:48:49 < qyx> hm, lis3 dhhc doesn't exist
2023-10-18T02:49:04 < qyx> sorry, IIS3DHHC
2023-10-18T02:49:36 < qyx> Recommended power supply decoupling capacitors (100 nF ceramic in parallel with 10 µF aluminum)
2023-10-18T02:49:39 < qyx> the same
2023-10-18T02:49:47 < Ecco> indeed
2023-10-18T02:50:11 < qyx> and iis3dhhc has 2.5 mA supply current
2023-10-18T02:50:17 < Ecco> Yeah, I saw that indeed
2023-10-18T02:50:28 < Ecco> Why do they insist on an aluminium cap?
2023-10-18T02:50:33 < Ecco> Those are rather bulky
2023-10-18T02:50:36 < Ecco> wouldn't an mlcc work?
2023-10-18T02:50:56 < qyx> it definitely would, I achieved datasheet noise performance with MLCCs
2023-10-18T02:51:02 < qyx> idk why
2023-10-18T02:51:14 < Ecco> Another question: I *think* I read, as a rule of thumb, that we should stay below half of a cap rated voltage
2023-10-18T02:51:21 < Ecco> so 6.3V would be ok for like up to 3.3V
2023-10-18T02:51:35 < Ecco> is that true? Is there any benefit in taking a cap with a larger voltage limit?
2023-10-18T02:52:04 < Ecco> (assuming its voltage will indeed never exceeed 3.3V)
2023-10-18T02:52:12 < qyx> yes it is, see voltage derating
2023-10-18T02:52:22 < qyx> and it is more a rule of physical size, not voltage rating
2023-10-18T02:52:49 < qyx> your 10u 6.3V 0603 would be like 1u at 3V3
2023-10-18T02:53:14 < qyx> but eg. 10u 16V 0805 will be nearly 10u at 3V3
2023-10-18T02:53:28 < qyx> this applies only to a DC bias
2023-10-18T02:54:11 < qyx> specifically for iis3dhhc I used 10u/16V/0805 + 2x 100n/0603
2023-10-18T02:55:27 < qyx> for example for 5V output buck converters I usually use 10u/25V/1206, 2-3 in parallel depending on the vreg requirements
2023-10-18T02:55:39 < Ecco> ok now you lost me :)
2023-10-18T02:56:17 < qyx> meh, use 0603 for decoupling, 0805/1206 for bulk capacitance
2023-10-18T02:56:38 < qyx> for > 100u, consider hybrid polymer
2023-10-18T02:56:42 < qyx> never use alu electrolytic
2023-10-18T02:56:52 < Ecco> ok
2023-10-18T02:57:35 < Ecco> Why would a 10uF 6.3V 0603 be only 1u at 3.3V, while a 0805/16V would indeed be ~10uF at 3.3V?
2023-10-18T02:58:21 < Ecco> https://resources.altium.com/p/voltage-derating-ceramic-capacitors
2023-10-18T02:58:29 < Ecco> "A 1206 SMD ceramic capacitor will lose rated capacitance much more slowly than a 0603 SMD ceramic capacitor of the same rated values. "
2023-10-18T02:58:34 < Ecco> ok let me read that page :)
2023-10-18T02:58:48 < qyx> https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/436715/ceramic-capacitors-vs-dc-bias-derating-rule-of-thumb-misleading
2023-10-18T03:02:26 < Ecco> Ok so according to this: https://i.stack.imgur.com/H3aPY.png
2023-10-18T03:02:44 < Ecco> The capacitor voltage rating has virtually *zero* impact on its derating
2023-10-18T03:02:52 < Ecco> (not sure I'm using the word derating properly)
2023-10-18T03:03:07 < Ecco> (I meant "no impact on its actual capacity at a given voltage, as long as it's below the rated voltage)
2023-10-18T03:03:25 < Ecco> The package size (and dielectric) do play a big role
2023-10-18T03:03:38 < qyx> yes
2023-10-18T03:03:45 < Ecco> ok makes sense, thanks qyx, I learned something :)
2023-10-18T03:04:00 < qyx> so prefer x7r
2023-10-18T03:04:20 < qyx> x5r for bulk at worst
2023-10-18T03:04:44 < qyx> also, c0g for filters
2023-10-18T03:04:54 < Ecco> well, looking at this graph, 0603 X5R will lose close to half of its capacity at 3.3V???
2023-10-18T03:04:58 < Ecco> its… kind of crap :)
2023-10-18T03:05:19 < Ecco> At this point I even wonder how they can rate a cap "5uF" if the actual capacitance drops so badly
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2023-10-18T03:05:24 < Ecco> ok, why c0g for filters?
2023-10-18T03:05:27 < qyx> I warned you
2023-10-18T03:05:36 < Ecco> Indeed you did
2023-10-18T03:05:38 < Ecco> thanks for this!
2023-10-18T03:05:41 < Ecco> super helpful
2023-10-18T03:05:56 < Ecco> (by filter I guess you mean the 100nF ones?
2023-10-18T03:06:13 < qyx> no, low pass/high pass/whatever pass filtering of signals
2023-10-18T03:06:14 < Ecco> (whose role is to filter higher frequency voltage drops/current draw)
2023-10-18T03:06:21 < qyx> c0g does not have piezo effects
2023-10-18T03:06:31 < Ecco> what's the problem of piezo effects?
2023-10-18T03:06:48 < qyx> otherwise you will have false signals in your signal path on mechanical stress, sound, vibrations, etc.
2023-10-18T03:06:48 < Ecco> And I'm not sure I understand the "filtering of signals". Isn't this what capacitors do all the time?
2023-10-18T03:06:55 < Ecco> qyx: oh, fun :)
2023-10-18T03:06:56 < Ecco> ok :)
2023-10-18T03:07:09 < qyx> but you are using digital accels so does not matter
2023-10-18T03:07:22 < qyx> if you used an anaol one + filtering + ADC, it is quite important
2023-10-18T03:07:29 < Ecco> ok, got it
2023-10-18T03:13:41 < qyx> any recommended fiber optic stuff supplier in .eu?
2023-10-18T03:13:43 < qyx> besides fs.com
2023-10-18T03:14:00 < zyp> no, just fs.com
2023-10-18T03:16:08 < qyx> nah i need something like FTTA cables, not those bulky ODVA
2023-10-18T03:16:13 < qyx> mini-SC it is called apparently
2023-10-18T03:16:58 < qyx> premade outdoor armoured PUR, pretty strict requirements
2023-10-18T03:17:01 < zyp> the what? the connector?
2023-10-18T03:17:18 < qyx> IP-rated SC/APC on the ends
2023-10-18T03:17:48 < qyx> called IP-SC or ODVA SC or mini-SC or optiTap SC
2023-10-18T03:18:06 < qyx> all are probably different, mini-SC is the smallest one being simplex
2023-10-18T03:18:36 < qyx> https://www.passivefiberoptic.com/photo/passivefiberoptic/editor/20170922003545_61177.jpg
2023-10-18T03:18:42 < zyp> ah, you don't care which as long as it's IP rated?
2023-10-18T03:19:22 < qyx> as long as it is reasonably standardised, yeah
2023-10-18T03:19:38 < qyx> not a single manufacturer one preferably
2023-10-18T03:22:06 < qyx> there are some https://www.sylex.sk/category/interconnections/defense-aerospace-harsh-environment/ip-products/
2023-10-18T03:22:18 < qyx> but cocaine would be probably cheaper
2023-10-18T03:25:06 < Ecco> Wow
2023-10-18T03:25:06 < Ecco> https://www.yageo.com/en/Chart/Index/CC0402MRX5R5BB106#chart_dc_bias
2023-10-18T03:25:20 < Ecco> Yageo has an interactive derating chart for every single cap they make
2023-10-18T03:25:23 < Ecco> That's pretty cool
2023-10-18T03:25:28 < Ecco> So I looked at a 10uF 0402
2023-10-18T03:25:41 < Ecco> At 3V it lost 56% of its capacity indeed
2023-10-18T03:25:56 < Ecco> Then I do have a question
2023-10-18T03:26:03 < Ecco> one option is indeed to get a larger package
2023-10-18T03:26:10 < Ecco> but how about just getting a larger cap?
2023-10-18T03:26:27 < qyx> that works too
2023-10-18T03:26:30 < Ecco> (well, for 0402 not sure they can make anything at/above 10uF). But for 0603 I think they do.
2023-10-18T03:26:54 < Ecco> Welp, turns out they do have 22uF 0402
2023-10-18T03:27:28 < qyx> are you making ear implants?
2023-10-18T03:27:35 < Ecco> :-D
2023-10-18T03:27:44 < Ecco> I'm just being curious really
2023-10-18T03:27:54 < Ecco> I don't need to use a 0402
2023-10-18T03:28:02 < qyx> even 10u for 0603 is at the edge
2023-10-18T03:28:03 < Ecco> but usually smaller is better
2023-10-18T03:28:20 < Ecco> (at least when a pick'n'place does the job instead of me)
2023-10-18T03:32:50 < Ecco> What about leakage current
2023-10-18T03:32:58 < Ecco> I've read… very different things
2023-10-18T03:33:15 < Ecco> So the datasheet I'm reading from yageo
2023-10-18T03:33:53 < Ecco> Says "Insulation resistance after 1 minute at Ur (DC) : Rins >= 10 Gohms"
2023-10-18T03:35:39 < Ecco> Does that mean that if I put that capacitor around a 3V battery it will draw less than 3V/10GOhms?
2023-10-18T03:36:01 < Ecco> which is not even 1nA?
2023-10-18T03:36:11 < Ecco> or am I not reading this properly?
2023-10-18T03:37:09 < qyx> MLCCs have extremely small leakage
2023-10-18T03:37:15 < qyx> I would say it is possible
2023-10-18T03:37:26 < qyx> for hybrid alu you are in the uA range
2023-10-18T03:37:36 < qyx> or even in mA range for supercaps
2023-10-18T03:38:02 < Ecco> oh, ok, makes sense
2023-10-18T03:38:07 < Ecco> perfect :)
2023-10-18T03:38:12 < Ecco> thanks!
2023-10-18T03:38:25 < Ecco> Also, just became a fan of https://insect.sh/
2023-10-18T03:38:38 < Ecco> You can just go and type "3V/10Gohms->nA" in your browser
2023-10-18T03:38:43 < Ecco> super clean UI, loads instantly
2023-10-18T03:39:42 < Ecco> Apparently there's a "newer" version https://numbat.dev/
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2023-10-18T03:45:42 < qyx> 56 furlongs -> m
2023-10-18T03:45:44 < qyx> great
2023-10-18T03:46:49 < Ecco> I wish it would automatically pick the "best" SI unit tho
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2023-10-18T08:35:08 < BrainDamage> Ecco: qalculate has that
2023-10-18T08:35:25 < BrainDamage> arbitrary precision, unit conversion, and even automatic guess at best
2023-10-18T08:35:41 < BrainDamage> but it's desktop / console, not browser
2023-10-18T08:42:29 < qyx> does it do furlongs
2023-10-18T08:43:28 < BrainDamage> furlong/fm = 2,011 68 ⋅ 10^17
2023-10-18T08:44:39 < qyx> oh great
2023-10-18T08:45:22 < BrainDamage> e^(ipi)Wyear = −31,5576 MJ
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2023-10-18T13:36:38 < mawk> unit conversions are to be done by hand
2023-10-18T13:37:09 < mawk> that's a channel rule 
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2023-10-18T13:57:12 < mawk> PaulFertser: there's no lab power supply
2023-10-18T13:58:57 < ventYl> I wonder if my ex-coleague managed to break all the tests already
2023-10-18T14:06:41 < PaulFertser> mawk: that's odd. I got XY-SEP4 shit and it's better than nothing and it doesn't cost anything at all from business point of view.
2023-10-18T14:33:05 < mawk> the PCB design is outsourced
2023-10-18T14:33:11 < mawk> so it would be hard to justify buying more stuff
2023-10-18T14:33:13 < mawk> although I can try
2023-10-18T14:33:21 < mawk> I already had them buy a scope and a soldering iron
2023-10-18T14:33:57 < mawk> I have a 5V 15A power supply somewhere, I could maybe use that as a DIY solution
2023-10-18T14:40:40 < PaulFertser> A power supply with current limit is a must.
2023-10-18T14:41:07 < PaulFertser> And if you can use something without a linear output stage then even cheap shit is ok.
2023-10-18T14:42:32 < mawk> yeah
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2023-10-18T16:19:15 < Ecco> I'm helping a kid design a very simple circuit: a CR2032 powers a bunch of LEDs, each with a mechanical switch.
2023-10-18T16:19:41 < Ecco> I have a few questions: 1/ Should I add ballast resistors? 2/Is there *any* reason to try and use a driver IC?
2023-10-18T16:25:18 < Ecco> Oh, another question: we discussed capacitors yesterday. What about the load capacitors for crystals?
2023-10-18T16:28:55 < jpa-> use them, with correct value
2023-10-18T16:29:02 < PaulFertser> Ecco: well, you obviously need some way to limit LED current.
2023-10-18T16:29:06 < jpa-> what is a ballast resistor?
2023-10-18T16:29:24 < PaulFertser> Ecco: if you add enough LEDs in series then you can probably go without any additional components.
2023-10-18T16:30:04 < Ecco> jpa-: it's the name of a resistor you put in series with an LED to limit the current
2023-10-18T16:30:11 < PaulFertser> Ecco: https://github.com/karlp/zypsnips/blob/master/crystal-load-wisdom.txt
2023-10-18T16:31:22 < Ecco> well, a CR2032 is ~3V, which is pretty damn close to the Vf of many LEDs
2023-10-18T16:31:30 < Ecco> also, CR2032 have a rather high internal resistance
2023-10-18T16:31:41 < Ecco> so I was thinking, maybe I don't need an extra ballast resistor?
2023-10-18T16:31:53 < PaulFertser> Probably if your LED is really big
2023-10-18T16:32:34 < Ecco> We're going to use 1206
2023-10-18T16:33:24 < jpa-> Ecco: usually it is called series resistor, a ballast resistor is usually the name used with fluorescent lamps and they are often a bit special  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_ballast#Resistors
2023-10-18T16:33:55 < Ecco> Oh indeed
2023-10-18T16:34:00 < Ecco> thanks for correcting me
2023-10-18T16:34:06 < jpa-> also make sure to stay within the specs of CR2032
2023-10-18T16:34:29 < Ecco> in terms of peak current?
2023-10-18T16:34:34 < jpa-> yes
2023-10-18T16:34:38 < Ecco> ok :)
2023-10-18T16:35:17 < jpa-> usually max. 10mA is the spec
2023-10-18T16:37:28 < Ecco> Yeah, so series resistors are needed indeed
2023-10-18T16:37:42 < Ecco> Another dumb question: what symbol would you guys use for a jumper?
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2023-10-18T16:39:16 < Ecco> Oh, found at least one datapoint: in The Art of Electronics, they use the two circles and parenthesis
2023-10-18T16:39:21 < Ecco> I'll do the same I guess
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2023-10-18T17:09:26 < Ecco> Sometimes I struggle to find the easiest parts
2023-10-18T17:09:32 < Ecco> https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61SAu8ITdNL.jpg -> what are those on LCSC?
2023-10-18T17:09:47 < Ecco> I'm sure there's a gazillion vendors of them, yet I can't find any :-/
2023-10-18T17:11:13 < Ecco> oh, found them
2023-10-18T17:11:16 < Ecco> "shunts and jumpers"
2023-10-18T17:11:22 < Ecco> surprisingly there aren't that many of them
2023-10-18T17:42:37 < Ecco> Oh, another question, hopefully more interesting: I understand that powering another IC from a GPIO might be a bad idea (if, for some reason, other IC were to draw more/close to the max current of said GPIO (usually 20mA on STM32s AFAIK). In that scenario, what would you recommend doing? N-channel mosfet on IC's ground? Or P-channel mosfet on IC's VCC? Something else?
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2023-10-18T18:02:26 < Ecco> Another question: would you show jumpers meant for debugging (e.g. measuing current) in a schematic?
2023-10-18T18:04:02 < PaulFertser> Ecco: if it's a component with footprint and everything how can you not show it in schematic?
2023-10-18T18:04:48 < PaulFertser> Ecco: 20 mA is probably about AVRs, not sure how current STM32 families perform but IIRC it's less than that.
2023-10-18T18:05:59 < PaulFertser> But you can connect two GPIOs in parallel if you want to get nasty.
2023-10-18T18:06:19 < PaulFertser> iirc I tried something like that with ds18b20
2023-10-18T18:08:54 < Ecco> PaulFertser: Every STM32 I've looked at had a max rating of 20mA per pin. Now it *is* an "absolute maximum rating", not sure about the recommended one
2023-10-18T18:09:47 < PaulFertser> You're not supposed to operate at absolute maximum.
2023-10-18T18:10:53 < jbo> plus AFAIK 20mA is "for one pin" type deal
2023-10-18T18:11:17 < jbo> wasn't there something like absolute maximum 20mA per port or something like that?
2023-10-18T18:15:32 < Ecco> last time I checked, it was max 20mA/pin and 100mA total
2023-10-18T18:16:03 < Ecco> (I think the numbers were roughly the same across 3 pretty different parts, like STM32G4 and STM32H7)
2023-10-18T18:17:38 < mawk> yes there's a global maximum jbo
2023-10-18T18:17:49 < mawk> the sum of all currents must not exceed it
2023-10-18T18:17:59 < Ecco> yes, and it's around 100mA
2023-10-18T18:18:12 < jbo> not sure what you're up to Ecco but I'm with PaulFertser on this one. I'd never design something pushing anywhere close to those limits.
2023-10-18T18:18:43 < Ecco> of course, I'm essentially trying to learn
2023-10-18T18:19:19 < Ecco> two questions then: 1/ If abs max rating is 20mA, what should I consider "ok"? 2/ If it's not ok to power from GPIO, what would your go-to circuit be?
2023-10-18T18:20:01 < jbo> Ecco, what is the downstream device/circuit you want to control via GPIO?
2023-10-18T18:20:08 < jbo> motor? fan? LED? 
2023-10-18T18:21:20 < Ecco> Let's say something low-power, like an IC or an LED
2023-10-18T18:21:28 < Ecco> Let's say its power consumption is 20mA
2023-10-18T18:22:12 < jbo> Ecco, sounds like a job for a mosfet. n-channel if low-side, p-channel if high-side.
2023-10-18T18:22:35 < jbo> Ecco, but it really depends on the exact thing you're "powering" and the overal design. there are also proper driver circuits for many things such as motors, LEDs and so on
2023-10-18T18:23:03 < jbo> if it's just for some pretty lights usually whatever will work. if you are designing some highly robust motor driving circuit you'd usually have a proper mosfet driver (dedicated chip)
2023-10-18T18:23:14 < Ecco> Why would you recommend a mosfet?
2023-10-18T18:23:34 < jbo> because I can't recommend anything reasonable without knowing the exact downstream requirements.
2023-10-18T18:23:38 < Ecco> ok :)
2023-10-18T18:23:54 < Ecco> I guess I need to read some litterature
2023-10-18T18:23:56 < jbo> mosfets are the go-to solution for simple on/off scenarios where you don't deal with inductive or capacitive loads and just need slow control.
2023-10-18T18:24:15 < jbo> in the old days one would have used a bipolar transistor (NPN, PNP)
2023-10-18T18:26:25 < Ecco> I'm reading this, it's pretty instructuve
2023-10-18T18:26:26 < Ecco> https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/13079/when-is-a-mosfet-more-appropriate-as-a-switch-than-a-bjt
2023-10-18T18:26:59 < Ecco> Are there some "super standard, super cheap" mosfets I could read a datasheet of?
2023-10-18T18:27:19 < Ecco> Kind of like 1N4148 for diodes
2023-10-18T18:27:31 < jbo> BSS123
2023-10-18T18:44:22 < mawk> what are you looking for?
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2023-10-18T20:20:09 < Ecco> A super common mosfet
2023-10-18T20:20:41 < Ecco> What about 2N7002?
2023-10-18T20:20:50 < Ecco> (thanks for BSS123 jbo by the way :) )
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2023-10-18T21:03:01 < machinehum> What's this Rt guy... isn't mentioned in the datasheet https://aosmd.com/res/data_sheets/AOZ6682CI.pdf
2023-10-18T21:06:55 < machinehum> 10R maybe
2023-10-18T21:06:58 < machinehum> That's what you get
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2023-10-19T00:40:53 < qyx> jbo: hows your sama5d doing?
2023-10-19T00:41:07 < qyx> I haven't asked for a while
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2023-10-19T08:07:06 < benishor> The repository 'https://ppa.launchpadcontent.net/kicad/kicad-dev-nightly/ubuntu mantic Release' does not have a Release file.
2023-10-19T08:07:07 < benishor> :(
2023-10-19T08:07:16 < benishor> still missing
2023-10-19T08:07:32 < benishor> welp, wrong chan
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2023-10-20T01:03:51 < qyx> no innovation today?
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2023-10-20T09:26:36 < antto> qyx, it's never ever been __DATE__ before. does that count as innovation? ;P~
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2023-10-20T13:21:49 < karlp> sorry, contract requires all innovations to be company property....
2023-10-20T13:22:08 < karlp> I'm innovating by remembering to use 0..255, instead of 0..360 and 0..100
2023-10-20T13:22:18 < karlp> floating point is free right?
2023-10-20T13:22:40 < qyx> isn't it?
2023-10-20T13:37:24 < mawk> free in what
2023-10-20T13:37:43 < mawk> if you use a binary base?
2023-10-20T13:37:57 < mawk> fixed point is free yes
2023-10-20T13:38:08 < mawk> floating point will required a bit more manipulations
2023-10-20T13:41:31 < mawk> are you making some kind of lookup table karlp 
2023-10-20T13:42:18 < karlp> nah, just doing micropython with no regard for computational effort :)
2023-10-20T13:42:35 < karlp> it's "fun" writing microcontroller code when you have no good methods of profiling :)
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2023-10-20T14:08:54 < srk> I have a wall plotter prototype that runs on nodemcu (driving steppers..) lots of fun
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2023-10-20T14:09:23 < srk> each stepper has its own esp, controlled over wifi 
2023-10-20T14:10:49 < srk> it cannot draw straight lines for some reason, but I keep it broken so I can figure out exactly what causes that and write a blogpost about the bug
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2023-10-20T15:49:59 < mawk> lol srk 
2023-10-20T16:00:45 < PaulFertser> Is that Haskell generating code for esp8266?
2023-10-20T16:01:04 < srk> no, it just generates lua commands for them
2023-10-20T16:01:24 < srk> nodemcu evals these and drives steppers
2023-10-20T16:03:15 < PaulFertser> At least one part of that system is solid :)
2023-10-20T16:03:36 < PaulFertser> Do you have photos of some funny non-straight lines to share?
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2023-10-20T16:06:21 < srk> PaulFertser: http://48.io/~rmarko/random/wall_plotter.jpg
2023-10-20T16:07:19 < srk> I'll take a pic of the squares where the artifact is visible.. it's hanging on the wall as a motivation xD
2023-10-20T16:07:23 < srk> *are
2023-10-20T16:07:59 < srk> *is
2023-10-20T16:08:03 < srk> but later, gtg
2023-10-20T16:08:07 < PaulFertser> 404
2023-10-20T16:08:19 < srk> yeah, sorry, no https :(
2023-10-20T16:08:32 < PaulFertser> Ah, ok, sorry. See you.
2023-10-20T16:09:09 < karlp> why would you generate lua, when you could just write lua?
2023-10-20T16:11:15 < srk> https://imgur.com/a/Cton00i
2023-10-20T16:11:18 < srk> PaulFertser: ^
2023-10-20T16:12:20 < qyx> srk: are you .sk?
2023-10-20T16:12:23 < srk> karlp: because it uses https://diagrams.github.io/ (the example on the top of the page is converted into commands via simple FK)
2023-10-20T16:13:08 < qyx> another basement dweller
2023-10-20T16:13:10 < srk> qyx: you realize that just now after all these years? :D
2023-10-20T16:13:17 < qyx> yeah
2023-10-20T16:13:55 < srk> qyx: born sk but living in cz for a long time now. we had a hackerspace in basement, no more tho
2023-10-20T16:14:06 < srk> qyx: mate sklep!?
2023-10-20T16:14:19 < qyx> haha, jo
2023-10-20T16:14:27 < qyx> half of the basement is my kingdom
2023-10-20T16:14:30 < srk> :D
2023-10-20T16:14:34  * srk runs, bbl
2023-10-20T16:15:38 < srk> karlp: https://diagrams.github.io/gallery/Hilbert.html
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2023-10-20T19:32:39 < machinehum> Getting two null bytes at the begining of  uint8_t p2;
2023-10-20T19:32:52 < machinehum> uart_fifo_read rather
2023-10-20T19:32:54 < machinehum> :(
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2023-10-20T22:13:55 < nomorekaki> Steffanx: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppcixn_D2W0 musics
2023-10-20T22:14:05 < Steffanx> will i be ok after this?
2023-10-20T22:16:03 < Steffanx> ok not my kind of music, but not terrible.
2023-10-20T22:17:17 < nomorekaki> just random musics
2023-10-20T22:19:49 < Steffanx> i see
2023-10-20T22:25:43 < nomorekaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RKpA1OiEFE
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2023-10-21T00:47:29 < bitmask> heyo
2023-10-21T00:47:34 < bitmask> anyone know a good place to learn dynamodb
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2023-10-21T00:48:22 < bitmask> maybe i know enough. i just dont know what I want to do
2023-10-21T00:49:18 < bitmask> if you have a collection of shows would you split it into two databases, one for show info and one for episode info?
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2023-10-21T01:28:13 < machinehum> dynamodb eh
2023-10-21T01:28:21 < machinehum> Sounds horrible
2023-10-21T01:31:24 < qyx> wut I read that as sodium hydroxide
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2023-10-21T02:02:49 < Steffanx> Time to sleep qyx
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2023-10-21T02:21:09 < qyx> No.
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2023-10-21T03:30:20 < Ecco> LOL
2023-10-21T03:30:44 < Ecco> So I just read the most jarring thing
2023-10-21T03:30:45 < Ecco> https://resources.pcb.cadence.com/blog/2020-understanding-ceramic-chip-antenna-vs-pcb-trace-antenna
2023-10-21T03:30:55 < Ecco> https://resources.altium.com/p/embedded-rf-design-ceramic-chip-antennas-vs-pcb-trace-antennas
2023-10-21T03:31:57 < Ecco> I mean… even the oddly specific ballkpark estimate ($0.10 to $1.60)…
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2023-10-21T04:12:12 < qyx> cadence, does it still exists
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2023-10-21T19:04:06 < PaulFertser> Who can guess why 01031974 is among the most popular admin passwords? https://outpost24.com/blog/it-admins-weak-password-use/ 
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2023-10-21T19:10:02 < BrainDamage> default pw for something? it could also be a date and be read as either 01 mar or 03 jan 1974, but seems oddly specific to use such date
2023-10-21T19:10:53 < BrainDamage> and nothing remarkable on either https://www.onthisday.com/date/1974/january/3 https://www.onthisday.com/date/1974/march/1
2023-10-21T19:11:12 < PaulFertser> Yes, that's what makes it odd
2023-10-21T19:13:50 < Steffanx> Or it's just the "pattern" on a numpad.
2023-10-21T19:15:04 < PaulFertser> But it doesn't look like one
2023-10-21T19:16:25 < BrainDamage> I just realized that regenerative braking suffers from the same issue as AC rectification without PFC
2023-10-21T19:16:59 < BrainDamage> so you'd need a boost converter like active PFC to be abe to 100% regen brake things
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2023-10-21T20:03:33 < zyp> BrainDamage, why? doesn't the motor and switches itself kinda form a boost converter when you run it with negative torque?
2023-10-21T20:09:11 < BrainDamage> yes and no, the voltage of the rail is not 0, so you're charging the motor's inductance with the difference between the bemf and the rail, and you cannot charge the inductor at all when the bemf goes lower than the rail
2023-10-21T20:10:15 < BrainDamage> nvm, I'm an idiot, I forgot you can use the lower transistor to charge it
2023-10-21T20:10:38 < BrainDamage> so you always have a 0 voltage ref to charge the inductor
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2023-10-21T20:26:33 < qyx> I 
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2023-10-21T20:48:51 < zyp> BrainDamage, the way I see it, the spinning charges it, and you're doing a controlled discharge
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2023-10-21T23:24:02 < jbo> karlp, ping
--- Day changed su loka 22 2023
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2023-10-22T00:18:26 < Steffanx> You feel ignored jbo?
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2023-10-22T00:35:33 < nomorekaki> movie
2023-10-22T00:38:55 < Steffanx> Saw X
2023-10-22T00:39:30 < Steffanx> Mission impossible - dead reckoning part uno
2023-10-22T00:39:41 < Steffanx> The little mermaid 
2023-10-22T00:40:39 < Steffanx> The Equalizer 3
2023-10-22T00:41:47 < Steffanx> The super mario bros movie 
2023-10-22T00:42:10 < Steffanx> The whale
2023-10-22T00:42:19 < Steffanx> The menu
2023-10-22T00:42:40 < Steffanx> The black phone
2023-10-22T00:42:51 < Steffanx> Lol need more nomorekaki ?
2023-10-22T00:43:00 < nomorekaki> sorry
2023-10-22T00:43:15 < nomorekaki> you watched the menu?
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2023-10-22T00:43:42 < nomorekaki> Equalizer 3 any good?
2023-10-22T00:44:53 < Steffanx> It's not terrible, not amazing either 
2023-10-22T00:45:37 < Steffanx> I only watched 2 movies of that list nomorekaki . Mario and the Equalizer 
2023-10-22T01:03:52 < qyx> wat Steffanx do you need some additional work to do?
2023-10-22T01:03:58 < qyx> it is weekend
2023-10-22T01:04:35 < qyx> free time to get some more work done and you are watching movies instead
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2023-10-22T01:05:24 < Steffanx> I didn't watch a single movie this weekend so far..
2023-10-22T01:10:23 < Steffanx> And my weekends are not for work-work Mr qyx
2023-10-22T01:10:38 < Steffanx> I'm not self employed. Then it probably would be
2023-10-22T01:14:21 < nomorekaki> I dont even watch movies but ask movies instead
2023-10-22T01:15:28 < antto> nomorekaki, The Room
2023-10-22T01:15:33 < antto> just watched it again
2023-10-22T01:15:42 < nomorekaki> :)
2023-10-22T01:16:03 < antto> ehm, not the "wtf" one, but the one with olga kurylenko
2023-10-22T01:17:09 < antto> it's about a house that has a room which... materializes wishes
2023-10-22T01:18:10 < nomorekaki> scary
2023-10-22T01:18:48 < antto> yeah, there's a catch, and sh*t goes wrong ;P~
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2023-10-22T01:56:21 < antto> what would you wish for, nomorekaki
2023-10-22T01:56:34 < nomorekaki> a movie
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2023-10-22T10:33:14 < Steffanx> Go sauna instead nomorekaki 
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2023-10-22T12:32:33 < srk> karlp: https://github.com/antonblanchard/microwatt .. one twisted way to get SWO :D
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2023-10-22T13:58:01 < jpa-> swo?
2023-10-22T13:59:02 < srk> jpa-: swo for micropython 
2023-10-22T13:59:34 < srk> for tracing
2023-10-22T14:19:38 < jpa-> microwatt has swo?
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2023-10-22T14:31:39 < srk> jpa-: no but unlike esp32 you could add one. but it is more of a joke because that would require running on fat fpga instead of cheapo mcu 
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2023-10-22T14:41:02 < jpa-> somehow it seems that for tracing micropython, you could just instrument the code
2023-10-22T14:42:35 < srk> with print!
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2023-10-22T19:29:57 < jbo> Steffanx, that's alright
2023-10-22T19:32:32 < Steffanx> Lol ok
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2023-10-22T22:12:55 < mawk> zyp 
2023-10-22T22:13:02 < mawk> 205348 <mawk> Jean-Michel has a cup of coffee and a cup of milk, each 200mL. he takes a 5mL spoon from the coffee mug, puts it in the milk mug, mixes evenly, then takes a 5mL spoonful from the milk mug, puts it in the coffee mug, and mixes evenly.
2023-10-22T22:13:02 < mawk> 205359 <mawk> is there now more coffee in the milk mug or more milk in the coffee mug?
2023-10-22T22:13:02 < mawk> 205418 <mawk> and if he repeats the operation enough times, can he get exactly half coffee and half milk in each mug?
2023-10-22T22:13:18 < mawk> bonus points for a closed form expression
2023-10-22T22:14:06 < mawk> we compare volume to volume, and there's no funny interactions between the two liquids 
2023-10-22T22:23:08 < Steffanx> 'mawk: Well the milk cup is 200/205 milk, so after removing 5mL has 200*(200/205) milk in it.  The coffee cup has 195mL coffee to which 5mL which is 5/205 coffee is added, so 195+5*(5/205).  If we use c for cup and s for spoon volume, we have (c-s)+s*s/(c+s) = ((c-s)*(c+s) + s*s)/(c+s) = (c^2 - s^2 + s^2)/(c+s) = c^2/(c+s), which is the quantity in the other cup.'
2023-10-22T22:23:44 < mawk> you're cheating Steffanx 
2023-10-22T22:23:48 < mawk> I have a slight feeling 
2023-10-22T22:24:07 < Steffanx> lol
2023-10-22T22:25:13 < antto> i'm bothered about the name... why Jean-Michel
2023-10-22T22:25:33 < Steffanx> It's Jarre.
2023-10-22T22:26:33 < Steffanx> You know Jarre, antto 
2023-10-22T22:27:15 < antto> i knew it, gtfo ;P~
2023-10-22T22:27:41 < Steffanx> What's wrong with some good old Jarre antto  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSIMVnPA994
2023-10-22T22:27:47 < antto> no.
2023-10-22T22:27:55 < Steffanx> YES
2023-10-22T22:28:05 < antto> i will clean my ears with some mr. gasmask
2023-10-22T22:28:43 < Steffanx> poor antto 
2023-10-22T22:29:00 < mawk> listen to jean-michel antto 
2023-10-22T22:29:05 < mawk> he's a legend of electronic music
2023-10-22T22:29:09 < antto> no
2023-10-22T22:29:23 < Steffanx> antto is the new legend in that genre
2023-10-22T22:29:28 < antto> my dad listened to him
2023-10-22T22:29:49 < antto> Steffanx, do not compare me to him, my stuff is completely different
2023-10-22T22:30:17 < srk> jean-michel gasmask
2023-10-22T22:30:36 < srk> finally some good use for ai
2023-10-22T22:30:41 < Steffanx> are you drunk antto ?
2023-10-22T22:30:51 < antto> i don't drink
2023-10-22T22:30:54 < Steffanx> drugs?
2023-10-22T22:30:58 < antto> no
2023-10-22T22:31:04 < Steffanx> lack of sleep?
2023-10-22T22:31:14 < antto> nyesh
2023-10-22T22:31:31 < antto> that has nothing to do with what i said about JMJ
2023-10-22T22:31:39 < antto> his stuff is "meh"
2023-10-22T22:32:00 < antto> i'd rather listen to.... 2pac
2023-10-22T22:32:08 < Steffanx> whaaoooaoaoaoa
2023-10-22T22:32:08 < antto> AND I DON'T LIKE HIM EITHER
2023-10-22T22:32:30 < Steffanx> Next you'll tell me you like taylor swift and the weekend too
2023-10-22T22:32:34 < Steffanx> -too
2023-10-22T22:33:06 < antto> both of those have like 1 or 2 songs that aren't bad
2023-10-22T22:34:51 < antto> this is more my thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HRtG2vu_DI
2023-10-22T22:36:21 < antto> i like a whole lot of genres of electronic music, JMJ doesn't qualify anywhere near
2023-10-22T22:36:25 < antto> ...in my list
2023-10-22T22:37:46 < antto> Steffanx, did you hear my latest track?
2023-10-22T22:38:00 < antto> inform me if JMJ has something similar ;P~
2023-10-22T22:38:07 < antto> (no, he don't)
2023-10-22T22:49:02 < antto> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6xjBdOWfMc
2023-10-22T22:54:57  * antto slaps Steffanx especially with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgqFei5T3Ro
2023-10-22T22:55:40 < Steffanx> such aggression 
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2023-10-22T23:22:16 < antto> on-topic question... my chip has two VCAP pins, i have a 2.2u capacitor "very close" to each pin... but do the two have to be also connected together?
2023-10-22T23:30:09 < qyx> ez answer, copy the datasheet drawing
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--- Day changed ma loka 23 2023
2023-10-23T00:06:27 < karlp> jbo: yes?
2023-10-23T00:09:29 < karlp> jpa-: yeah, there's a trace hook, it's just still needs to _go_ somewhere.
2023-10-23T00:10:03 < karlp> and traing all function calls is not as convenient (to me) as being able to use swo and cycle counter to do targetting variable tracing and block cycle counting.
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2023-10-23T00:25:48 < karlp> ok, radar and pir sensors aren't working too well out the window at the footpath...
2023-10-23T00:25:58 < karlp> going to need some creative work...
2023-10-23T00:26:26 < qyx> which radar?
2023-10-23T00:26:44 < karlp> https://vi.aliexpress.com/item/33033376689.html
2023-10-23T00:26:46 < qyx> I have shown your spider to the kid
2023-10-23T00:26:47 < karlp> not real radar.
2023-10-23T00:26:50 < qyx> he liked it
2023-10-23T00:27:01 < karlp> yeah, kids are pretty impressed with it.
2023-10-23T00:27:29 < qyx> wtf is it, looks sketchy
2023-10-23T00:27:30 < karlp> I got the led strips wired out side today, but with the sensors not working, I've brought the board back down to try and figure out a few things.
2023-10-23T00:27:46 < karlp> I also need to work out a better remote udpate situaton I think...
2023-10-23T00:27:52 < qyx> a trace here and there and that's all
2023-10-23T00:28:58 < karlp> worst comes to worst, I can push a button on my phone to trigger the "attack" pattern when people come up the footpath...
2023-10-23T00:29:38 < karlp> kinda want to re-mount the led strips though, the pixels are too visible, I want more of the glow backlit view.
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2023-10-23T03:20:57 < Ecco> What SWD connector do you guys use?
2023-10-23T03:21:15 < Ecco> ARM mentions a 10-pin, 0.05"
2023-10-23T03:21:35 < Ecco> (I forgot the original manufacturer's name, but I do know those are a bit pricey)
2023-10-23T03:21:40 < Ecco> Samtech?
2023-10-23T03:21:49 < Ecco> Samtec, no h
2023-10-23T03:22:16 < Ecco> I think ST mentionned somewhere a pogo-pin based option
2023-10-23T03:22:19 < Ecco> so you don't have to have a connector
2023-10-23T03:24:16 < Ecco> https://www.tag-connect.com/solutions-target-devices/stm32
2023-10-23T03:24:22 < Ecco> What do you think of those?
2023-10-23T03:25:27 < Ecco> (lol at the prices on that page btw)
2023-10-23T03:44:03 < octorian> I like the pinout for the ST-Link v3, which I think ST calls "STDC14".  I like it because it offers SWD, can also do JTAG, and includes pins for UART.
2023-10-23T03:45:09 < octorian> On the board itself, they have a recommended fine-pitch 14-pin connector from Samtec, the FTSH-107-01-L-DV-K-A.
2023-10-23T03:45:24 < octorian> Its quite expensive for what it is, but you can find other connectors of the same type for a lot cheaper.
2023-10-23T03:46:14 < octorian> On a current project, I'm using the 3220-14-0300-00.  (if you don't need it to be shrouded/keyed, you can go even cheaper)
2023-10-23T03:47:12 < octorian> I actually do use Tag-Connect on some other projects, where I don't want to have a connector sticking out.  They have a thing with the same pin count, so I just assign the pins the same way and it plugs straight into the ST-Link v3 no problem.
2023-10-23T03:47:34 < octorian> (yes, Tag-Connect is very expensive for what it is...  but that's just the debug tool side.  It doesn't cost anything on the PCB itself)
2023-10-23T03:48:27 < octorian> If you use Segger J-Link, they do not make anything compatible with the "STDC14" pin-out, unfortunately.  So I just went ahead and made my own adapter board for that.
2023-10-23T03:49:00 < octorian> https://github.com/dkonigsberg/jlink-st-adapter
2023-10-23T03:49:28 < Ecco> Thanks :)
2023-10-23T03:49:49 < Ecco> I guess this questions pairs with "what debugging hardware do you guys use/recommend?"
2023-10-23T03:50:04 < Ecco> and also, I'm curious as to what cable the STLinkv3 comes with, if any
2023-10-23T03:50:51 < octorian> I started with the ST-Link v3, which is why I'm where I am with this.  I currently use a Segger J-Link in some places, and an ST-Link v3 in others.
2023-10-23T03:51:17 < Ecco> Does the ST-Link v3 come with any cable at all?
2023-10-23T03:51:20 < octorian> The ST-Link v3 comes with a ribbon cable that connects to that 1.27mm pitch 14-pin connector.
2023-10-23T03:51:26 < Ecco> ok
2023-10-23T03:51:32 < Ecco> So STDC14
2023-10-23T03:51:32 < Ecco> ok :)
2023-10-23T03:51:38 < octorian> Though you can buy more of those easily off Amazon.
2023-10-23T03:51:39 < Ecco> What about the J-Link you used?
2023-10-23T03:52:35 < octorian> I don't remember what the J-Link comes with, but they make a business model out of selling expensive adapters to go from the unit's own 2.54mm pitch connector to a lot of different things.
2023-10-23T03:53:06 < octorian> (they just don't seem to make an STDC14 adapter themselves, with the "eh, no customers we listen to have asked for this" excuse when I asked them about it.)
2023-10-23T03:53:21 < octorian> Which is why I just made my own.
2023-10-23T03:55:10 < Ecco> ok :D
2023-10-23T04:00:04 < octorian> Segger's in this weird spot, where they're really good about some things, and really bad (and making bad excuses) about other things.
2023-10-23T04:00:46 < octorian> Probably because they have an expensive product, and only listen to what deep pocket customers say, and those are filtered through layers of management who don't care about "spit and polish".
2023-10-23T04:03:10 < octorian> (Like all their GUI tools are built around Qt4, and they have zero interest in updating, while its basically a long deprecated version where the Qt people are now all about Qt5 and Qt6.  Which sometimes causes integration issues and GUI appearance issues)
2023-10-23T04:04:23 < octorian> Okay, I've rambled at you enough for now :-)
2023-10-23T04:04:58 < Ecco> Oh, that's ok, don't worry :)
2023-10-23T04:07:13 < octorian> Oh yeah, Segger RTT is also a great alternative to UART output for debugging/logging.  But all the viewer-side tools for it seem to kinda suck, and are kinda ugly.  (previous rant being part of the reason)
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2023-10-23T05:11:38 < octorian> Meanwhile, for my own projects, I'm starting to wonder if I should move away from the "Eclipse managed build" (a.k.a. what STM32CubeIDE sets up by default) over to something a little more explicit using CMake.  That way I'll have more IDE flexibility, and have an easier time doing interesting things with the build process as-needed.
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2023-10-23T09:01:27 < antto> due to the stlink v3 i also went for STDC14, but not the f*cking $$$samtec$$$ connector
2023-10-23T09:02:34 < antto> at $job i made a custom 1x8 1.27mm pitch connector where i use a pin socket on the board and i've made a cable with the header for my debugger, fixed with some hot-snot
2023-10-23T09:02:41 < PaulFertser> octorian: fwiw, one can use RTT with any adapter, not just jlink (assuming you run OpenOCD).
2023-10-23T09:02:50 < antto> the custom one also has the optional UART
2023-10-23T09:03:18 < antto> but at the end, i don't actually use stlink v3 anywhere
2023-10-23T09:03:37 < antto> hypothetically i could try it for the new board, maybe
2023-10-23T09:04:16 < octorian> I was kinda surprised just how expensive that Samtec connector is.  I still used it for some prototypes, but now that I care a bit more about BOM cost I've been using other connectors of the same type.
2023-10-23T09:04:43 < antto> of course
2023-10-23T09:04:46 < antto> $$$samtec
2023-10-23T09:05:54 < antto> https://i.imgur.com/sftPLLS.png
2023-10-23T09:07:30 < antto> i've selected this connector it seems: 20021111-00014T1LF
2023-10-23T09:08:46 < octorian> This is the one I'm using now, which is only a few pennies more: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/cnc-tech/3220-14-0300-00/3883270
2023-10-23T09:09:03 < octorian> (and is actually shrouded, so its keyed and won't let you plug the cable in the wrong way)
2023-10-23T09:09:50  * antto adds that partnumber to his collection
2023-10-23T09:09:52 < antto> ;P~
2023-10-23T09:10:29 < antto> oh, it's SMD
2023-10-23T09:10:59 < octorian> So is the Samtec one.
2023-10-23T09:11:14 < octorian> Meanwhile, my first pass at throwing together a CMake based build process for one of my projects went more smoothly than expected.  There's still a lot to clean up, and some post-build things I still need to add, but I think its going to work.  If I want to follow through on it.
2023-10-23T09:11:34 < antto> i put THT one
2023-10-23T09:15:00 < antto> and i draw indication on the silkscreen
2023-10-23T09:15:29 < antto> basically, if this board is made, i'll plug it only a few times, for most of the time that cable is gonna just stay plugged
2023-10-23T09:16:27 < antto> i should make a f*ckin footprint for it
2023-10-23T09:21:42 < antto> btw, i feel like a DIP-8 has "more material" than a TQFP-100
2023-10-23T09:21:58 < antto> silly optoisolator
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2023-10-23T10:57:25 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/tem_cell_testing.png   hmm, this TEM cell is working quite nicely, one ferrite + cap added and got a nice reduction
2023-10-23T10:57:55 < jpa-> it also appears that some series resistors for the 50 MHz clock line from PHY would be good
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2023-10-23T13:19:48 < Steffanx> What TEM cell does jpa- have?
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2023-10-23T13:26:53 < jpa-> Steffanx: custom build
2023-10-23T13:27:37 < jpa-> pretty basic PCB build, except i fixed the messed up dimensions in all the projects online
2023-10-23T13:29:00 < qyx> what is a TEMcell
2023-10-23T13:30:53 < jpa-> a box you put your PCB in and you get some idea on whether it will pass EMC tests
2023-10-23T13:33:07 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/temcell_s11.png   turns out all the DIY builds online copy the magic number 0.53 from Satav's 2008 paper, but its the wrong value (originally for closed TEM cells with particular geometry) and the real value is closer to 0.3
2023-10-23T13:34:11 < jpa-> the spindelberger asymmetric design is nice though, gives more space; but i wasn't sure how it affects sensitivity so i went with a classic symmetrical design
2023-10-23T13:37:26 < qyx> oh
2023-10-23T13:38:28 < qyx> so it is practically a widened waveguide where you can put your DUT?
2023-10-23T13:38:42 < jpa-> yeah
2023-10-23T13:39:09 < qyx> and a SDR for generator & analyser?
2023-10-23T13:39:19 < jpa-> i use tinysa ultra
2023-10-23T13:40:06 < jpa-> i haven't yet considered immunity testing (not required by the standards i usually target), would need some power amplifier for that
2023-10-23T13:41:18 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/background.png   no side shields and just sitting on my table, but it's reasonably clean with only the FM band and TETRA coming through
2023-10-23T13:42:50 < jpa-> (as a rule of thumb, -70dBm is the level at which you start to worry and -50dBm you know it won't pass EMC tests)
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2023-10-23T14:24:18 < mawk> are you playing with TETRA?
2023-10-23T14:24:37 < mawk> I have a bunch of TETRA police radios in my basement 
2023-10-23T14:30:23 < ventYl> did you loot a police station?
2023-10-23T14:40:24 < jpa-> i'm not playing with TETRA, but there is probably some base station nearby because it leaks into my measurements
2023-10-23T14:52:21 < jbo> today is not a good day
2023-10-23T14:55:12 < jpa-> jbo: why?
2023-10-23T14:56:36 < jbo> no sauna time with jpa- :<
2023-10-23T15:34:50 < Steffanx> I have to report you now mawk.
2023-10-23T15:34:59 < mawk> lol
2023-10-23T15:36:15 < Steffanx> How did you get em mawk?
2023-10-23T15:36:19 < Steffanx> Also https://nos.nl/artikel/2494698-politie-is-ruim-2200-portofoons-kwijt-niet-zeker-wie-ze-in-handen-heeft
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2023-10-23T15:52:13 < jpa-> jbo: yeah, looks like if you left now it would take past midnight until you are here
2023-10-23T15:59:18 < Steffanx> Do you have a private sauna jpa-?
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2023-10-23T16:09:20 < Ecco> Back on the debug probe topic, what are the "pros" of an ST-Link / J-LInk as opposed to a $1 chinese clone STLink clone?
2023-10-23T16:10:40 < PaulFertser> Ecco: stlinkv3 can't work with non-st targets.
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2023-10-23T16:11:15 < PaulFertser> Ecco: stlink clone probably runs older firmware which doesn't support DAP mode (but probably one can upgrade the firmware using stlink tools, not sure) 
2023-10-23T16:11:34 < PaulFertser> Ecco: clone stlink only supports targets with 3.3 V Vcc.
2023-10-23T16:11:53 < PaulFertser> And lacks ESD protection.
2023-10-23T16:13:04 < Ecco> ok :) A few questions:
2023-10-23T16:14:13 < PaulFertser> jlink also supports JTAG (so can be used with any targets) and can also be used with flashrom for SPI NOR flashes.
2023-10-23T16:14:17 < Ecco> 1/ What about ETM/ITM? Are there any open-source software that support those? What hardware is needed?
2023-10-23T16:14:26 < Ecco> 2/ What is DAP?
2023-10-23T16:14:31 < PaulFertser> And jlink has higher max SWO frequency
2023-10-23T16:15:39 < PaulFertser> DAP is debug access port, some ARM-specific thing. You talk to DAP over SWD or JTAG. Old stlink protocol was even higher than DAP level and didn't allow dap-level operations, e.g. unlocking kinetis flash.
2023-10-23T16:15:57 < PaulFertser> https://github.com/orbcode/orbtrace
2023-10-23T16:18:05 < PaulFertser> ITM is nice and possible over SWO. ETM is kind of possible too but requires tricks. https://essentialscrap.com/tips/arm_trace/
2023-10-23T16:21:27 < Ecco> Oh wow cool, I already have one of those el-cheapo FX2 logic analyzers
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2023-10-23T16:24:42 < jbo> jpa-, might be worth it tho
2023-10-23T16:25:01 < jbo> karlp, you once mentioned that you're replacing Quectel LTE modems with some other brand. what brand was that?
2023-10-23T16:26:14 < Ecco> Another question: on a battery-powered STM32 gadget, I'd like to use the ADC to measure the battery's voltage. I'm thinking of using the internal voltage reference Vrefint, but then I need to bring Vbat below Vrefint. I'm thiking of using a divider bridge (Vbat --> R1 --> ADC_PIN --> R2 ---> GND). But then this would constantly leak Vbat/(R1+R2). Can I replace Vbat with a GPIO, and only turn it on before 
2023-10-23T16:26:20 < Ecco> sampling ADC? Would Vgpio be equal to Vbat?
2023-10-23T16:33:59 < ventYl> I guess you are running your MCU off some stabilizer, thus short answer -> no
2023-10-23T16:35:00 < Ecco> What do you mean by stabilizer? I'm running the MCU straight off of the battery. It's a CR2032, whose voltage is between 3.0 and 2.0, which is within the accepted range of the STM32 I'm looking at.
2023-10-23T16:35:14 < Ecco> So there's no DC/DC converter involved
2023-10-23T16:35:42 < karlp> jbo: no, we never got that far.  I got some quotes on cavli wireless on a module that was pin compatible, and quite a bit cheaper.
2023-10-23T16:35:56 < karlp> we closed the company down before any of it went to production anyway.
2023-10-23T16:36:04 < karlp> I just signed the contract for newjob.
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2023-10-23T16:37:40 < karlp> https://www.cavliwireless.com/c-series/c16qs.html in particular
2023-10-23T16:41:13 < PaulFertser> Ecco: stm32 ADC can measure Vcc, there's a special channel for that.
2023-10-23T16:41:44 < ventYl> Ecco: um, I guess that divider made of 50k resistors could provide measurable voltage signal. And that would drain the CR2032 in sime 8,6 million hours
2023-10-23T16:42:26 < jbo> karlp, aye, the cavli was actually what I was referring to. May I ask what the quotation looked like? Any idea what single pieces up to 100pcs cost?
2023-10-23T16:48:30 < Ecco> PaulFertser: oh, cool
2023-10-23T16:53:03 < Ecco> PaulFertser: The one I'm looking at doesn't seem to have a Vcc channel. Would you mind sharing a part where you know that's an option, so I can look up its datasheet
2023-10-23T16:55:45 < Ecco> Oh nvm I found it
2023-10-23T16:55:54 < Ecco> There's even a section in the refman "Calculating the actual VDDA voltage using the internal reference voltage"
2023-10-23T16:58:10 < qyx> you are not using a VCC channel, simply measure Vrefint (internal channel) using your VBAT = Vref
2023-10-23T16:58:25 < qyx> VBAT = VDD = VDDA (= Vref) in your application
2023-10-23T16:58:44 < Ecco> Yeah
2023-10-23T16:58:55 < Ecco> But so apparently the idea is to measure Vrefint, is that correct?
2023-10-23T16:59:01 < qyx> yes
2023-10-23T16:59:06 < Ecco> You measure Vrefint, you see how "different" it is from the calibrated value
2023-10-23T16:59:17 < qyx> the other way around, you know your unknown and then you compute your Vref
2023-10-23T16:59:24 < qyx> yeah
2023-10-23T16:59:26 < Ecco> and then you infer Vbat from this, because the calibrated vrefint was given for Vdda=3.0v
2023-10-23T16:59:32 < Ecco> yeah ok makes sense
2023-10-23T16:59:36 < Ecco> thanks!
2023-10-23T16:59:43 < qyx> don§t forget to calib your ADc first
2023-10-23T16:59:53 < Ecco> qyx: Isn't it factory calibrated?
2023-10-23T17:00:09 < Ecco> I thought that was the whole point of vrefint
2023-10-23T17:00:14 < qyx> you would like to remove the offset, it is an internal function
2023-10-23T17:00:20 < qyx> ADCAL bit iirc
2023-10-23T17:00:26 < qyx> there is a section on that too
2023-10-23T17:01:04 < Ecco> ok, thanks!
2023-10-23T17:01:09 < Ecco> That's purely software tho, right?
2023-10-23T17:01:18 < qyx> yes
2023-10-23T17:01:26 < Ecco> So essentially there's *no* hardware involved to measure VCC
2023-10-23T17:01:32 < Ecco> I mean, no external hardware
2023-10-23T17:01:37 < Ecco> all the wiring is in the STM32 already
2023-10-23T17:01:44 < qyx> correct
2023-10-23T17:01:45 < Ecco> (which makes sense, I assume it's a pretty common use-case)
2023-10-23T17:01:48 < Ecco> coolio, thanks!
2023-10-23T17:04:45 < qyx> just got some metric circular connectors from the murica
2023-10-23T17:05:02 < qyx> because here in the eu we sometimes run out of them
2023-10-23T17:05:21 < qyx> I hope they didn't manage to redo the thread to something unmetric
2023-10-23T17:17:19 < jpa-> Steffanx: every decent home in finland has a sauna
2023-10-23T17:23:49 < BrainDamage> what about indecent homes?
2023-10-23T17:24:05 < BrainDamage> are brothels sauna-less?
2023-10-23T17:31:33 < Ecco> Would SOT-23 be a very common package for a low-power LDO?
2023-10-23T17:31:49 < Ecco> (I'm trying to pick an LDO that can be sourced/replaced very easily)
2023-10-23T17:31:55 < Ecco> I guess I'm really looking for a jellybean LDO
2023-10-23T17:36:57 < Ecco> SOT-23-5 seems to be pretty common
2023-10-23T17:39:37 < jpa-> BrainDamage: in finland prostitution happens either in hotels or in cheap rental apartments, so yeah, probably no sauna
2023-10-23T17:40:59 < jpa-> Ecco: yeah, SOT-23-5 is the most common; almost all have the same pinout  https://github.com/karlp/zypsnips/blob/master/sot23-5.ldos.dongs
2023-10-23T17:41:58 < Ecco> Oh cool link thanks
2023-10-23T17:42:34 < Ecco> what does "need bypass" mean?
2023-10-23T17:44:29 < jpa-> Ecco: it has extra pin called "bypass" that you need a separate capacitor for
2023-10-23T17:46:01 < Steffanx> Do you have a decent house jpa-?
2023-10-23T17:46:08 < Steffanx> *home
2023-10-23T17:46:13 < jpa-> yes
2023-10-23T17:46:25 < jpa-> the activity within may be indecent though
2023-10-23T17:46:44 < Ecco> jpa-: thanks!
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2023-10-23T19:22:27 < zyp> PaulFertser, ETM over SWO is very chip-specific, there's lots of chips where SWO hangs right off the ITM stream, before ETM is muxed in
2023-10-23T19:27:25 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/Yhghdts.png -> What's the point of the Zener diode?
2023-10-23T19:28:07 < Ecco> (Also correct me if I'm wrong, but this circuit drives the speaker using a low-side switch with a N-channel MOSFET. Is that correct?
2023-10-23T19:31:30 < zyp> BAS16LD is a regular diode, not zener, presumably to handle flyback current from the speaker 
2023-10-23T19:33:36 < Ecco> Oh, ok
2023-10-23T19:33:42 < Ecco> Isn't that a symbol for a Zener diode tho?
2023-10-23T19:33:53 < BrainDamage> that's a schottcky diode in the schematic, not a zener
2023-10-23T19:33:57 < Ecco> Oh, ok, sorry
2023-10-23T19:34:15 < zyp> yeah, but it's not a schottky either
2023-10-23T19:34:21 < Ecco> :-D
2023-10-23T19:34:32 < BrainDamage> the model is not of a schottcky, but the symbol is of one
2023-10-23T19:34:49 < Ecco> In Altium's schematics editor, is it possible to *not* show dots when two traces connect?
2023-10-23T19:35:02 < BrainDamage> any fast diode with low vf will work
2023-10-23T19:35:34 < ventYl> if that schematic is directly from Nordic, then I am not even surprised
2023-10-23T19:35:39 < zyp> Ecco, what do you mean? I only get dots where three or more connect
2023-10-23T19:35:45 < BrainDamage> and you should place the diode physically close to the transistor
2023-10-23T19:35:46 < Ecco> Yeah, I'd like to avoid that
2023-10-23T19:35:46 < ventYl> they surely have 5-page long errata for it somewhere
2023-10-23T19:36:03 < Ecco> I'd like to avoid that dot
2023-10-23T19:36:12 < zyp> lol, no
2023-10-23T19:36:43 < zyp> why would you make your schematic unreadable?
2023-10-23T19:36:44 < ventYl> :D
2023-10-23T19:36:50 < Ecco> Yeah, you're right
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2023-10-23T19:36:58 < Ecco> I mean, my schematics never have crossing traces
2023-10-23T19:37:05 < Ecco> so I figured the dots were just useless
2023-10-23T19:37:12 < jpa-> :D
2023-10-23T19:37:14 < Ecco> But apparently everybody still "does" them
2023-10-23T19:37:24 < Ecco> (and still try not to have crossing traces)
2023-10-23T19:37:29 < zyp> why do you worry about dots if you don't have crossing traces?
2023-10-23T19:37:33 < jpa-> .. because a lot of schematics do have some crossing traces
2023-10-23T19:37:45 < jpa-> and there is no way to know if it does or not, if there is no dot
2023-10-23T19:37:50 < Ecco> Indeed
2023-10-23T19:38:03 < Ecco> but in this specific case, the dots really just make the schematics "noisier"
2023-10-23T19:38:04 < jpa-> though some publications use the other style with small arc used for a crossing
2023-10-23T19:38:15 < Ecco> Yeah, but apparently that's "old" and not recomended
2023-10-23T19:38:24 < BrainDamage> would you rather have to edit your schematic adding the dots if you ever have to add a crossing trace
2023-10-23T19:38:30 < Ecco> Good point
2023-10-23T19:38:39 < jpa-> i think there may be a way to set the dot size, though
2023-10-23T19:39:12 < zyp> just stop fucking around with what's already sane defaults
2023-10-23T19:39:27 < ventYl> ^^
2023-10-23T19:40:58 < ventYl> Ecco: it's a matter of everyone else being able to read and *understand* the schematic without having to figure out if that three "wires" are actually connected or it is an error in schematic and one of them is going to nowhere.
2023-10-23T19:41:01 < jpa-> https://forum.kicad.info/t/junction-dot-conspiracy/19187   i think Ecco is part of the Junction Dot Conspiracy trying to destroy KiCad ;)
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2023-10-23T20:46:58 < Ecco> I'd like to drive a piezo buzzer from an STM32 (I mentioned this before)
2023-10-23T20:47:04 < Ecco> I understand there are several ways
2023-10-23T20:47:13 < Ecco> apparently the most efficient one involves an inductor
2023-10-23T20:47:31 < Ecco> creating an LC circuit with the piezo acting like a capacitor
2023-10-23T20:47:57 < Ecco> (the idea being that the capacitor and inductor will "bounce" energy at each other)
2023-10-23T20:48:19 < Ecco> and so the only "wasted" current is whatever is turned into heat in the inductor/pcb traces
2023-10-23T20:48:30 < Ecco> 1/ Is my understanding correct?
2023-10-23T20:49:13 < Ecco> 2/ I think it'd be fun to simulate this circuit. Of course it's a very simple circuit, but I've never done any circuit simulation so it sounds like a good candidate. What do you guys think? Any software recommendation (ideal open source)?
2023-10-23T20:55:06 < srk> Ecco: https://www.falstad.com/circuit/
2023-10-23T20:55:22 < jpa-> if you use kicad for schematics, you could use it for simulation also
2023-10-23T20:55:32 < srk> but it is a mess
2023-10-23T20:59:20 < PaulFertser> What about https://github.com/ra3xdh/qucs_s ? It's actively developed and uses external spice engines.
2023-10-23T21:00:15 < srk> looks cool
2023-10-23T21:01:00 < BrainDamage> funningly enough, removing the qucs engine removed the main reason to use that
2023-10-23T21:01:31 < BrainDamage> you're left with a shitty schematic editor, the real utility was the qucs engine doing hybrid digital/analog sims, even with waveguides in
2023-10-23T21:01:59 < srk> wow
2023-10-23T21:03:00 < Ecco> What about LTspice? Is it crap?
2023-10-23T21:03:46 < srk> I've installed the old version just recently, works well with wine
2023-10-23T21:04:18 < srk> but failed to sim a simple nand oscillator
2023-10-23T21:04:19 < BrainDamage> ltspice is fine, it won't have super weird stuff but the basis are solid
2023-10-23T21:04:40 < BrainDamage> ltspice, qucs, and a few others are "bare bones" sims
2023-10-23T21:04:53 < BrainDamage> which means they often lack what's called continuation methods in simulators
2023-10-23T21:05:15 < BrainDamage> simulators like that, don't and cannot handle having things like dangling nodes with high impedance
2023-10-23T21:05:41 < BrainDamage> what most circuit sims do is silently cheat: they insert virtual capacitors to those nodes so that the impedance isn't infinite
2023-10-23T21:06:06 < BrainDamage> that's one tecnique, there's many many others
2023-10-23T21:06:27 < BrainDamage> those are called "continuation methods" because they take a non-converging solution and steer into a converging one
2023-10-23T21:06:41 < Ecco> oh, ok
2023-10-23T21:07:06 < BrainDamage> when you hit "timestep too small" error, you know you've hit a case not handled by the engine's continuation methods
2023-10-23T21:07:13 < Ecco> I understand that a key element is to have pretty good models for each part
2023-10-23T21:07:28 < Ecco> Is there any "clear" winner there?
2023-10-23T21:07:49 < Ecco> I mean, I guess if you're hardcore maybe you roll your own models, but for a newbie I think it would definitely help
2023-10-23T21:07:55 < Ecco> (to have ready-made models I could use)
2023-10-23T21:07:55 < BrainDamage> no, they all suck, pick your poison, circuitsim is nice for small intuitive stuff
2023-10-23T21:08:00 < Ecco> ok
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2023-10-23T21:41:09 < karlp> mrh, I'm only getting like ~1-1.5m range with this shitty radar sensor :|
2023-10-23T21:41:55 < karlp> jbo: um, like 8€ or something? it was _well_ cheap, but I just emailed a reply to a marketting emial and asked, I didn't get much further
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2023-10-23T22:04:19 < antto> falstad/circuit
2023-10-23T22:11:03 < ventYl> nomorekaki: I brainfarted
2023-10-23T22:11:46 < nomorekaki> what did you do?
2023-10-23T22:11:49 < nomorekaki> buy bmw?
2023-10-23T22:12:30 < antto> bavarischen motorischen whatdafaqischen
2023-10-23T22:14:08 < ventYl> nomorekaki: for about a month I thought that Hondium has dead injector. after disassembling half of the engine I realized it was just a faulty HT cable
2023-10-23T22:14:43 < nomorekaki> you doubted honda?
2023-10-23T22:15:08 < ventYl> yeah... I am saying... brainfart
2023-10-23T22:17:31 < Steffanx> Today my heaterfan stopped working, so I changed the voltages, checked the resistor, checked the connections. It was all fine. Then my brother told me "give it a few knocks" and the problem was gone (for now).
2023-10-23T22:17:37 < Steffanx> *checked, not changed.
2023-10-23T22:18:09 < ventYl> that's not gone, it's just postponed until bearings freeze up entirely
2023-10-23T22:18:31 < Steffanx> hence the "for now". New one will arrive soon.
2023-10-23T22:21:32 < ventYl> I hope you won't have to disassemble half of the car in order to replace it
2023-10-23T22:21:44 < ventYl> certain makers are creative with component placement
2023-10-23T22:21:59 < Steffanx> It should be just the passenger dashboard cabinet, but we'll see.
2023-10-23T22:22:37 < ventYl> sounds pretty similar to mine
2023-10-23T22:23:19 < Steffanx> The only thing that will hate me afterwards is by back.. i think. 
2023-10-23T22:23:47 < ventYl> carasutra
2023-10-23T22:24:05 < ventYl> workshop masturbation edition
2023-10-23T22:24:24 < Steffanx> Carasutra "Sex blog & kinky stories. Good vibes only. Defending my kinks to the little death.  ". uuh? :P
2023-10-23T22:27:08 < ventYl> 1001 tales of blown fuses, noisy bearings, wet panties\W floor wiring looms and magical diagnostic faults
2023-10-23T22:28:36 < Steffanx> and the smell of burned rubber.
2023-10-23T22:31:43 < catphish> EV interior redone today with new LCD display https://i.imgur.com/DmOVrmG.jpg
2023-10-23T22:32:16 < ventYl> catphish: will you implement "please open driver's door to kill your instrument cluster bug?" it's pretty popular these days
2023-10-23T22:32:23 < ventYl> GM and VW both have it implemented
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2023-10-23T22:35:31 < nomorekaki> how does that bug work+
2023-10-23T22:35:32 < nomorekaki> ?
2023-10-23T22:36:36 < ventYl> you open driver's door and LCD instrument cluster dies instantly
2023-10-23T22:36:44 < ventYl> and never comes up again until you disconnect the battery
2023-10-23T22:37:02 < ventYl> in VW you don't even need to open the door, instrument cluster can go out on its own
2023-10-23T22:37:51 < catphish> lol
2023-10-23T22:38:25 < nomorekaki> sounds like they use the same supplier
2023-10-23T22:38:52 < nomorekaki> my intrument cluster is japanise by look of chips in there
2023-10-23T22:39:13 < ventYl> I've seen GM cars internals and I can confidently say that here it is most probably caused by some neglected transient in the overal electronics design
2023-10-23T22:39:18 < ventYl> TL;DR: they fucked it up
2023-10-23T22:39:20 < nomorekaki> nec chips instead of infineon chips
2023-10-23T22:40:14 < ventYl> that was pretty standard back then. Audi could have either Nippon-Seiko or Siemens instrument cluster. Both look the same visually but contain different part which are not interchangeable
2023-10-23T22:40:36 < ventYl> there are some 3 or maybe four different clusters depending on engine and both do exist in NS and Siemens versions
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2023-10-23T23:41:07 < antto> huh, the 144pin version is cheaper at verical than the 100pin version at mouser
2023-10-23T23:41:08 < antto> wtf
2023-10-23T23:58:25 < karlp> so I just built the grossest OTA updating thing for this micropython blob
2023-10-23T23:58:46 < Steffanx> But it works so it's perfect 
2023-10-23T23:58:47 < karlp> you publish a mqtt message with the name of the file in the topic, and the message contains an url to download the file from...
2023-10-23T23:58:54 < karlp> it's so skanky one-off tastic.
2023-10-23T23:59:19 < karlp> I wanted to just push the file over mqtt, but "out of memory" presumably trying to keep two copies of it somehow, 
2023-10-23T23:59:45 < karlp> but the requests lib let me chunk the read out of the socket easily, which I couldn't do with the mqtt library...
--- Day changed ti loka 24 2023
2023-10-24T00:04:53 < Steffanx> Imagine someone hacking your toy just to play Rick roll using the motor
2023-10-24T00:05:16 < Steffanx> All remote without any knowledge of the hw
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2023-10-24T00:09:41 < karlp> riiight
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2023-10-24T04:49:22 < machinehum> ffs has anyone used a switch like this before
2023-10-24T04:49:24 < machinehum> https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/apem-inc/MJTP2205B/1795809
2023-10-24T04:49:37 < machinehum> I've checked like 5 out, none of them have step files
2023-10-24T04:49:47 < machinehum> You can't find them on the mfg's website
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2023-10-24T05:11:36 < machinehum> Or even what they might be called so I can google around try to find a model
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2023-10-24T08:29:19 < jpa-> machinehum: this is similar and has a model, but i haven't checked if dimensions match:  https://www.te.com/usa-en/product-3-1437565-1.html
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2023-10-24T16:04:44 < mawk> they give you all dimensions machinehum 
2023-10-24T16:04:49 < mawk> you can't re-draw it yourself?
2023-10-24T16:05:22 < mawk> >2 switch vertical
2023-10-24T16:05:22 < mawk>  gang assembly,
2023-10-24T16:05:22 < mawk>  black actuators
2023-10-24T16:05:25 < mawk> lol
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2023-10-24T16:23:18 < jbo> lol
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2023-10-24T17:26:55 < Ecco> Back on this debugger question: so ST apparently recently released a very cheap, USB-C debug probe: https://www.st.com/en/development-tools/stlink-v3minie.html
2023-10-24T17:27:27 < Ecco> That's pretty sweet :) It comes with a "standard" STDC14 connector. Question: is the pinout/connector spec available somewhere?
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2023-10-24T17:30:53 < Ecco> Found it! um2910
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2023-10-24T18:46:40 < karlp> just an FYI, that one is also locked to ST only, unlike the stlink v2.
2023-10-24T18:50:54 < qyx> who would ever use anything other
2023-10-24T19:35:30 < machinehum> mawk: Thanks
2023-10-24T19:36:12 < machinehum> I actually emailed the eswitch guys they for some reason don't share their good docs on their site
2023-10-24T19:39:45 < zyp> Ecco, I'm biased, but you should just get an orbtrace ;)
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2023-10-24T20:16:30 < machinehum> Are there Chinese alternatives to coilcraft's parts? Basically some slightly modified part number, another 4mR of DCR and like 1/10 the price?
2023-10-24T20:16:55 < machinehum> Sorry coilcraft your 9$ part doesn't fit into my 20$ BOM
2023-10-24T20:17:32 < machinehum> Actually on their site the parts are only 2$
2023-10-24T20:17:34 < machinehum> Nevermind
2023-10-24T20:19:04 < qyx> machinehum: ferrocore from .pl
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2023-10-24T21:25:34 < Ecco> zyp: the orbtrace looks cool, but I'm really only playing with STM32s. Also the stlinkv3 is ~$10!
2023-10-24T21:25:57 < Ecco> For $100, they have a competitor to Nordic's Power Profiler
2023-10-24T21:26:29 < Ecco> Have you guys ever used any of those? https://www.nordicsemi.com/Products/Development-hardware/Power-Profiler-Kit-2 or https://www.st.com/en/development-tools/stlink-v3pwr.html
2023-10-24T21:48:04 < Steffanx> just the ppk2 here Ecco. it works
2023-10-24T21:48:59 < zyp> neither, just the joulescope
2023-10-24T21:49:25 < zyp> joulescope is great but $$$
2023-10-24T22:04:23 < mawk> the ui is a bit shit
2023-10-24T22:04:35 < mawk> but that's fixeable
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2023-10-24T22:42:10 < Ecco> I might as well try the ST one. I've heard good things about the ppk2 tho.
2023-10-24T22:42:26 < Ecco> CubeMX giving *erroneous* info. Sounds like a possibility?
2023-10-24T22:43:04 < Ecco> According to the datasheet of the part I'm looking at, HSE *needs* to be 32MHz. It's even labeled HSE32 throughout the datasheet/refman. Yet in CubeMX it's labeled "HSE" and can take a value between 16 and 32 MHz.
2023-10-24T22:43:48 < Ecco> Also, CubeMX mentions pins that can be configured as "Antena switch", 0 to 4, RF_ANTSW0. And... no mention of this whatsoever in the datasheet
2023-10-24T22:43:58 < Ecco> So, who's right? Datasheet? CubeMX?
2023-10-24T22:50:31 < Ecco> Both and I'm just stupid?
2023-10-24T22:51:55 < Ecco> Actually, the Nucleo board for that part also mentions a "RF_ANT_SW0"
2023-10-24T23:13:38 < Ecco> Also, side rant: "single wire debug" bus has at least 3 wires. Whoever named that is a genius.
2023-10-24T23:14:39 < Ecco> ha, my bad, apparently it's serial wire debug. Makes a lot more sense :)
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2023-10-24T23:23:58 < antto> zyp, orbtrace - very fast DAPlink debugger? how much $$$
2023-10-24T23:24:18 < Steffanx> Only a few.
2023-10-24T23:25:31 < zyp> cmsis-dap, not daplink
2023-10-24T23:25:42 < antto> ehm
2023-10-24T23:25:52 < antto> wasn't daplink the new name for cmsis-dap?
2023-10-24T23:26:15 < zyp> daplink is another cmsis-dap implementation
2023-10-24T23:26:20 < antto> oh
2023-10-24T23:26:26 < zyp> same protocol, different implementation
2023-10-24T23:26:32 < antto> oh
2023-10-24T23:26:53 < antto> so "very fast ARM Cortex-M SWD debugger" then
2023-10-24T23:27:06 < zyp> yeah
2023-10-24T23:27:23 < antto> h o w   m u c h   $ $ $ ;P~
2023-10-24T23:27:42 < zyp> https://store.zyp.no/category/development-tools
2023-10-24T23:28:08 < antto> 120?
2023-10-24T23:28:09 < antto> eek
2023-10-24T23:28:19  * antto hides
2023-10-24T23:28:23 < zyp> :)
2023-10-24T23:28:35 < antto> well, actually...
2023-10-24T23:28:54 < zyp> well, the original design goal was to make an open alternative to j-trace at like a tenth of the pricetag
2023-10-24T23:28:56 < antto> the atmel ice i bought was around that much-ish
2023-10-24T23:29:47 < antto> and its SWD speed with openocd is kinda equal to that of the 14euro kamami debugger running on a silly NXP chip
2023-10-24T23:29:58 < zyp> in reality, I've yet to use the parallel trace capability for a real project…
2023-10-24T23:30:10 < antto> not even sure what this trace was about
2023-10-24T23:31:41 < zyp> can do full instruction trace via ETM, e.g. get a log of every instruction your chip executed right before it crashed
2023-10-24T23:32:11 < qyx> you have printf for that, don't you?
2023-10-24T23:32:15 < zyp> the problem is just that I don't have any real hardware that brings out the trace pins yet
2023-10-24T23:32:58 < zyp> on the other hand, it can do 96Mbaud manchester SWO, i.e. 48Mb/s actual throughput, with autobaud, so it just works
2023-10-24T23:32:59 < antto> the trace thing requires extra pins?
2023-10-24T23:33:12 < zyp> parallel trace does, SWO doesn't
2023-10-24T23:33:27 < antto> ah, i don't think i've used SWO still
2023-10-24T23:33:49 < antto> so i just want a simple SWD debugger, but a fast and cheap one
2023-10-24T23:33:54 < zyp> at the very least, SWO is a convenient transport for printf :)
2023-10-24T23:34:01 < antto> right
2023-10-24T23:34:21 < antto> i just slap an ordinary UART onto the debugger port
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2023-10-24T23:41:09 < Ecco> When designing schematics, how do you draw STM32s? 1/ Try to have a symbol that looks like the actual part (follow pin numbering) ? 2/ Try to organize pins by GPIO group (PA0-10, then PB0-10) ? 3/ Try to re-organize pins by AF used (SPI3, UART2) ?
2023-10-24T23:41:50 < zyp> one block per large GPIO bank and one with the remaining crap
2023-10-24T23:42:07 < zyp> e.g. like U1 here: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/Ohk8C/f7_trace.pdf
2023-10-24T23:42:47 < antto> definately not how it physically looks like
2023-10-24T23:43:05 < antto> the schematic doesn't have to look like reality, what if it was a BGA chip?
2023-10-24T23:43:07 < antto> ;P~
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2023-10-24T23:43:45 < antto> if the chip has too much things and the symbol doesn't fit on a page, i'd split it into multiple units
2023-10-24T23:44:10 < zyp> yeah, like this: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/oUmUF/orbtrace_mini_r1.0.1.pdf
2023-10-24T23:44:25 < zyp> on this schematic, U1 is a FPGA in a BGA package
2023-10-24T23:46:20 < Ecco> Cool
2023-10-24T23:46:31 < Ecco> So essentially option 2
2023-10-24T23:47:02 < zyp> yeah
2023-10-24T23:47:13 < Ecco> I see you don't mention the AF function used
2023-10-24T23:47:30 < zyp> option 1 is useless, schematic should make logical sense, not be a physical representation of it
2023-10-24T23:47:38 < Ecco> Yes
2023-10-24T23:47:51 < zyp> option 3 requires project-specific symbols
2023-10-24T23:47:56 < Ecco> Yes
2023-10-24T23:48:00 < zyp> that's more hassle than I bother with
2023-10-24T23:48:03 < Ecco> :-D
2023-10-24T23:48:09 < antto> the 100pin version fits on A4, the bigger versions no longer fit: https://i.imgur.com/oBoNL68.png
2023-10-24T23:48:10 < Ecco> Well, I want to show the AF anyway
2023-10-24T23:48:27 < Ecco> Yeah, like antto is doing
2023-10-24T23:48:39 < zyp> doing what?
2023-10-24T23:48:54 < antto> kicadding
2023-10-24T23:48:55 < antto> ;P~
2023-10-24T23:49:08 < antto> the most prefered EDA in this channel
2023-10-24T23:49:09 < zyp> I don't see AFs (except JTAG)
2023-10-24T23:49:10  * antto runs
2023-10-24T23:49:24 < antto> what's AF?
2023-10-24T23:49:34 < zyp> alternate function
2023-10-24T23:49:42 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/cZjps7H.png
2023-10-24T23:49:50 < Ecco> That's what I'm doing currently
2023-10-24T23:49:56 < antto> oh
2023-10-24T23:50:08 < Ecco> pins are grouped PB0-10
2023-10-24T23:50:14 < Ecco> but I also want to label the AF
2023-10-24T23:50:25 < zyp> IMO there's too many AFs to show them all on the symbol, and I don't want to make project specific symbols
2023-10-24T23:50:25 < antto> as you can see, the pin functions aren't set in stone yet
2023-10-24T23:50:27 < Ecco> so it's not just PB9, but PB9 / SPI3_MISO
2023-10-24T23:50:41 < zyp> so I rather put the function in the net name
2023-10-24T23:50:42 < Ecco> zyp: Indeed there are many
2023-10-24T23:50:42 < antto> i use labels for that
2023-10-24T23:51:10 < Ecco> Yeah, I mean, eventually it's just a matter of taste
2023-10-24T23:51:19 < Ecco> but I think it's really useful to have the AF listed in the schematics
2023-10-24T23:51:31 < Ecco> Could indeed be a net name
2023-10-24T23:51:51 < zyp> well, you do have it in the net name
2023-10-24T23:52:00 < zyp> no need to have it on the symbol too :)
2023-10-24T23:52:12 < Ecco> do I have it in the net name?
2023-10-24T23:52:22 < zyp> «MEMS_SPI_MOSI»
2023-10-24T23:52:33 < Ecco> well, that tells me the purpose
2023-10-24T23:52:43 < Ecco> but it doesn't tell me that it's SPI3
2023-10-24T23:52:52 < Ecco> it's even more obvious on something more simple
2023-10-24T23:52:56 < Ecco> like if there's a single LED
2023-10-24T23:53:04 < Ecco> the net name / port name my just be "LED_EN"
2023-10-24T23:53:11 < Ecco> but then the AF is going to be like TIM2_CH1
2023-10-24T23:53:18 < Ecco> I think it's useful to have both
2023-10-24T23:53:54 < Ecco> I guess I could do pin name = PB1, net name = TIM2_CH1, port_name = LED_EN
2023-10-24T23:54:02 < antto> at this point i wonder what happened to mr dongs ;P~
2023-10-24T23:54:02 < Ecco> but the net name seems kind of "off"
2023-10-24T23:54:11 < zyp> I disagree, the schematic defines the hardware, not the firmware
2023-10-24T23:54:26 < Ecco> well, you do make a point
2023-10-24T23:54:29 < zyp> it's up to the firmware if you want to drive it with PWM or just a simple GPIO on/off
2023-10-24T23:54:38 < zyp> and that can change without the hardware changing
2023-10-24T23:54:52 < Ecco> well, I would really agree if the AF configuration matrix wasn't that shallow
2023-10-24T23:55:01 < Ecco> er, I mean, empty
2023-10-24T23:55:03 < Ecco> scarce
2023-10-24T23:55:05 < Ecco> that's the term
2023-10-24T23:55:14 < Ecco> *sparse*
2023-10-24T23:55:15 < Ecco> dang
2023-10-24T23:55:22 < zyp> true
2023-10-24T23:55:33 < Ecco> It's really bad on the part I'm currently looking at
2023-10-24T23:55:39 < zyp> nrf52 and friends are almost full crossbar
2023-10-24T23:55:46 < Ecco> so far, pretty much every single AF I've looked at had just one possible GPIO
2023-10-24T23:55:51 < zyp> which means that every pin can be almost every AF
2023-10-24T23:55:57 < Ecco> that's really cool
2023-10-24T23:56:06 < zyp> nah, it doesn't really scale
2023-10-24T23:56:17 < antto> kicad allows having alt pins on symbols, when you make (or generate the symbol) you could put for each pin, a different name and electrical type
2023-10-24T23:56:30 < antto> and you can put all of the possible pin roles for each pin
2023-10-24T23:56:32 < zyp> nrf52 only have like 48 gpio
2023-10-24T23:56:42 < Ecco> antto I think Altium also does this, on recent versions
2023-10-24T23:56:45 < antto> that'll make the symbol very... fancy
2023-10-24T23:56:56 < antto> but there's a potential problem
2023-10-24T23:57:31 < qyx> I tend to make the symbol with "PA0", "PA1" only and then in the schematic I do a short wire with a label saying "SPI1_MOSI" or so
2023-10-24T23:57:46 < antto> on some chips, there are these "gotchas" like "if you choose PB7 for SPI3_MOSI, then you have to choose these specific pins for the other SPI3 signals
2023-10-24T23:57:58 < qyx> oh
2023-10-24T23:58:00 < antto> qyx, see my screenshot
2023-10-24T23:58:28 < qyx> "if by any accident you enable I2C SDA on PB7, you cannot enable the internal segmented LCD controller"
2023-10-24T23:58:32 < antto> Ecco, ehm, and kicad cannot help you with those
2023-10-24T23:58:55 < zyp> antto, that's a f1 issue
2023-10-24T23:59:02 < antto> so you might as well not add the alt pins to the symbol and keep them cryptic like "PB7" to make the user RTFM and figure it out
2023-10-24T23:59:17 < zyp> I refuse to design with f1 mainly because gpiov1 is so annoying
2023-10-24T23:59:19 < antto> zyp, F1?
2023-10-24T23:59:22 < qyx> you should always rtfm, we are not doing ardweeno
2023-10-24T23:59:32 < zyp> stm32f1
2023-10-24T23:59:37 < antto> oh
2023-10-24T23:59:47 < zyp> stm32f1 has gpiov1, everything else has gpiov2
--- Day changed ke loka 25 2023
2023-10-25T00:00:01 < zyp> the main difference being that v2 has per-pin AF selection, v1 has group remapping
2023-10-25T00:00:15 < zyp> so v2 won't have arbitrary conflicts like that, v1 can
2023-10-25T00:00:21 < antto> zyp, i didn't imply STM32 when i said about the "gotchas" i meant more like atmel's SAME54 and their particular "IOSETs"
2023-10-25T00:00:33 < antto> but i bet other chips probably have similar gotchas too
2023-10-25T00:00:35 < zyp> sure
2023-10-25T00:00:48 < zyp> I'm just saying I refuse to use f1 because of it
2023-10-25T00:01:08 < antto> a chip configurator should know about those gotchas and warn or prevent you from setting up invalid setups
2023-10-25T00:01:16 < antto> but kicad can't really help you with that
2023-10-25T00:01:48 < zyp> cubemx is supposed to help with that
2023-10-25T00:02:30 < antto> right, so if the symbol has all the pin alt functions, you might mistakinly thing "ooh, how convenient, i can change the pin functions from here, weeee!"
2023-10-25T00:02:45 < antto> "i don't even have to RTFM it seems so easy!"
2023-10-25T00:03:01 < zyp> haha
2023-10-25T00:03:04 < antto> ^ disaster would probably follow
2023-10-25T00:03:28 < antto> so instead, make the symbol simple and cryptic "PB7" ... "what the f*ck is this, where are all the things?!"
2023-10-25T00:03:46 < antto> "hm, maybe i need to RTFM or use a chip configurator" <-- bingo, success imminent
2023-10-25T00:03:47 < zyp> I'm not really a fan of cubemx, when I'm doing something complex I usually print the AF table and go at it with highlighters
2023-10-25T00:04:23 < antto> zyp, i'm using the cubemx for this
2023-10-25T00:04:33 < antto> hope it works
2023-10-25T00:04:52 < Steffanx> antto join telegram and talk to the dongs 🎉
2023-10-25T00:04:57 < antto> nah
2023-10-25T00:05:04 < antto> telegram <-- no way
2023-10-25T00:05:10 < Steffanx> Your loss
2023-10-25T00:05:19 < antto> and i know what he'll say when he smells kicad screenshots
2023-10-25T00:05:29 < Steffanx> Nah
2023-10-25T00:05:39 < qyx> fuk telegram
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2023-10-25T00:05:45 < Steffanx> Your loss
2023-10-25T00:05:54 < antto> irc or gtfo ;P~
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2023-10-25T00:06:37 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/3ezrP.jpg <- my alternative to cubemx
2023-10-25T00:06:37 < Steffanx> At least on telegram you can use proper emojis and gifs. Unlike ;P~
2023-10-25T00:07:06 < antto> is that.......... real paper
2023-10-25T00:07:18 < antto> Steffanx, i hate crapmojis
2023-10-25T00:07:18 < zyp> yeah, I killed it myself
2023-10-25T00:07:28 < antto> i can use gifs here just fine
2023-10-25T00:07:55 < antto> see: <not_bad.gif>
2023-10-25T00:08:25 < antto> that's a 100% f*cking gif right there
2023-10-25T00:08:33 < qyx> zyp: haha
2023-10-25T00:08:37 < qyx> been there done that
2023-10-25T00:09:20 < zyp> I think this was the last time I did that, and that was a few years ago
2023-10-25T00:09:54 < antto> when i was fiddling with the atmel SAM chips, i hated the microsh*t-style pinout tables, so i took the time and copied the pinouts and alt functions and wrote them into asciidoc tables
2023-10-25T00:10:01 < antto> ...then to .html
2023-10-25T00:10:07 < zyp> lately I've just designed either stuff that's simple enough to not need much working out, or fpga stuff where I can put anything anywhere
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2023-10-25T00:13:47 < antto> i also made other tables for like the SERCOMs to list their possible pinouts and stuff
2023-10-25T00:14:24 < antto> because the microsh*t datasheet makes you look at 2 or 3 different tables (terribly ugly ones too) to figure out where your damn signals could come out
2023-10-25T00:19:49 < qyx> now I have a single day to get anything able to flash SWD in field which is not a notebook
2023-10-25T00:19:56 < qyx> jlink flasher for example
2023-10-25T00:20:20 < qyx> sorry segger flasher
2023-10-25T00:20:51 < zyp> that's a planned feature for orbtrace
2023-10-25T00:22:06 < qyx> if there was a simple android app to use with a stlink
2023-10-25T00:22:32 < zyp> planning to make an addon board with a sd card socket, maybe add micropython scriptability for various headless operation like flashing, logging, crashdump capture, etc…
2023-10-25T00:22:34 < qyx> it has a mass storage mode hm
2023-10-25T00:23:08  * qyx trying to find a usb-c "otg" cable
2023-10-25T00:23:30 < zyp> all usb-c to usb-c cables are otg
2023-10-25T00:23:49 < zyp> that's one of the advantages, otg doesn't need special cables anymore
2023-10-25T00:23:49 < qyx> usb-c to usb micro-b
2023-10-25T00:23:58 < qyx> with a usb A in between
2023-10-25T00:24:32 < qyx> Unsupported USB STM drive
2023-10-25T00:24:48 < qyx> select the file format to format
2023-10-25T00:24:53 < qyx> EXFAT
2023-10-25T00:25:02 < qyx> ok lols
2023-10-25T00:25:33 < qyx> formatting stlink as FAT32
2023-10-25T00:25:38 < qyx> stuck at 20%
2023-10-25T00:25:43 < qyx> I guess that's not gonna work
2023-10-25T00:25:55 < zyp> haha
2023-10-25T00:26:32 < qyx> Don't remove the STM USB drive while it's being formatted
2023-10-25T00:26:35  * qyx removing
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2023-10-25T00:32:28 < qyx> zyp: do you consider using a battery?
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2023-10-25T00:33:53 < zyp> I've considered adding a battery option, yes
2023-10-25T00:34:48 < antto> add morekaki
2023-10-25T00:35:15 < zyp> I'm not sure how power efficient the current design is though, it's not designed for low power
2023-10-25T00:37:19 < nomorekaki> for lowest efficiency add morekaki
2023-10-25T00:40:02 < qyx> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.yatrim.stlinkp&hl=en&gl=US
2023-10-25T00:40:03 < qyx> oh
2023-10-25T00:46:24 < qyx> lol it works
2023-10-25T01:51:59 < jbo> meh
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2023-10-25T08:33:15 < jpa-> https://github.com/nanopb/nanopb/issues/910   i wonder what apple bullshit this is.. though the submitter thumbs-upping their own issue report feels a bit arrogant too :)
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2023-10-25T09:05:07 < qyx> the pr is arrogant as a whole
2023-10-25T09:05:55 < qyx> also I don't get the point, what's that?
2023-10-25T09:11:33 < jpa-> no idea
2023-10-25T09:11:55 < jpa-> i bet they've run some automatic "list all my dependencies" tool and sent issues to all of them
2023-10-25T09:17:24 < qyx> any idea why SnBi solder is 1.2 mm thick only?
2023-10-25T09:17:38 < jpa-> it's brittle
2023-10-25T09:18:19 < jpa-> i use TS391LT SnBi paste for rework, but it sometimes leaves annoying little solder balls
2023-10-25T09:19:06 < qyx> I started to use SnBi for hotairing large QFNs and also things in general if I am in hurry
2023-10-25T09:19:25 < qyx> (with hot air exclusively)
2023-10-25T09:20:39 < antto> we have a belgian RoHS solder paste at $job ..... and i have no clue what the ingredients are in it
2023-10-25T09:21:25 < jpa-> antto: it's 100% waffle with stroop flux core
2023-10-25T09:22:23 < antto> [citation_needed]
2023-10-25T09:23:46 < antto> this one: https://interflux.com/product/LMPA-Q6
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2023-10-25T09:24:58 < jpa-> lol, they don't even tell the melting point
2023-10-25T09:25:09 < antto> it's 180-ish
2023-10-25T09:26:26 < antto> and since we bought a whole 0.5kg bucket of it, and didn't handle it properly, now it's gone bad and the only useful thing you can do with it is to kill someone with it
2023-10-25T09:27:18 < qyx> is it poisonous
2023-10-25T09:27:31 < qyx> oh you mean as a weight
2023-10-25T09:27:38 < qyx> k then, feasible
2023-10-25T09:27:48 < antto> i asked around for advice and for next time i'm proposing thermally stable paste from chipquik in 50g jars, Sn96.5/Ag3/Cu0.5
2023-10-25T09:28:11 < antto> but it's about 3x the price
2023-10-25T09:28:14 < antto> oh well
2023-10-25T09:28:20 < antto> $boss decides
2023-10-25T09:28:42 < jpa-> could be Sn86 Zn5 In4 Bi3 if it has such medium-range melting point; Bi58 Sn42 would be more common but melts lower at 140°C
2023-10-25T09:29:33 < antto> *shrug*
2023-10-25T09:29:42  * antto doesn't schprachen ze chemistry
2023-10-25T09:31:55 < qyx> could be Sn60Pb40 as well
2023-10-25T09:32:10 < jpa-> qyx: and fake "RoHS" label? :)
2023-10-25T09:32:17 < qyx> yeah
2023-10-25T09:32:40 < antto> well they say it's RöHs
2023-10-25T09:33:46 < jpa-> https://patents.google.com/patent/US20190360075A1/en   probably this patent
2023-10-25T09:34:32 < qyx> where are te mandatory documents
2023-10-25T09:35:18 < antto> so Bismuth? what's the deal with it? cheaper than Silver?
2023-10-25T09:35:44 < jpa-> low melting point
2023-10-25T09:35:45 < antto> vampire-friendly
2023-10-25T09:36:30 < antto> right, the chipquik paste i mentioned has a higher melting point
2023-10-25T09:36:46 < jpa-> yeah - doesn't really matter if you do reflow
2023-10-25T09:37:31 < jpa-> i use TS391SNL50 Sn96.5/Ag3/Cu0.5 for reflow, it's always worked perfect
2023-10-25T09:37:52 < antto> jpa-, that's exactly the paste i was recommended to look at
2023-10-25T09:38:27 < antto> but i strongly proposed that we get two 50g jars
2023-10-25T09:38:27 < jpa-> but for reflow it's nicer if you can get one chip to melt off before all the others, so bismuth solder is nice for that
2023-10-25T09:38:39 < jpa-> err
2023-10-25T09:38:41 < jpa-> *for rework
2023-10-25T09:38:45 < antto> no 500g bullsh*t, we're not a MEGAFACTORY
2023-10-25T09:39:24 < jpa-> you probably order components every now and then too, no point stocking years supply of solder either
2023-10-25T09:39:26 < antto> uhm, in what scenario would you wanna solder one chip with a lower melting point solder?
2023-10-25T09:39:34 < antto> in case you wanna desolder it later?
2023-10-25T09:39:39 < jpa-> rework, replacing chip
2023-10-25T09:40:01 < antto> that shouldn't be a common scenario for us
2023-10-25T09:40:26 < antto> thing is, the chipquik is in stock at mouser and farnell
2023-10-25T09:40:30 < qyx> of course you are doing 100%
2023-10-25T09:40:30 < antto> and digikey
2023-10-25T09:41:22 < antto> we rarely buy from mouser/digikey, unless we can't get the sh*t from anywhere else (now is such a case, so i already gotta get some chips from mouser)
2023-10-25T09:41:52 < antto> we normally buy everything from comet.bg, they don't have super fancy stuff, but they "proxy" farnell's catalog
2023-10-25T09:42:05 < antto> farnell sell that paste for 2x the price at mouser/digikey
2023-10-25T09:42:06 < antto> >:/
2023-10-25T09:42:17 < antto> as if it's not expensive enough already
2023-10-25T09:42:54 < jpa-> doesn't farnell sell everything at 2x price - but for the price, you get 5x as many boxes and also 5x separate invoices
2023-10-25T09:43:17 < antto> some things are cheaper at farnell
2023-10-25T09:43:23 < antto> they also appear to be unable to count
2023-10-25T09:43:33 < jpa-> i just buy always from digikey/mouser
2023-10-25T09:43:45 < qyx> god sometimes I would like to sign a waiver when ordering to reduce the packaging material
2023-10-25T09:43:51 < antto> i order like 75 mechanical relays by TE Connectivity, they send us like 80+
2023-10-25T09:43:59 < qyx> for some things even to zero
2023-10-25T09:44:34 < jpa-> antto: maybe i got some too, because my latest farnell order had a relay i didn't even order
2023-10-25T09:44:34 < qyx> why are circuit breakers packaged in bubble foil and then in a box and then in a zip bag
2023-10-25T09:44:42 < qyx> the same for cables
2023-10-25T09:45:03 < antto> qyx, we don't order *directly* from farnell, we order thru comet.bg, they accumulate farnell orders and then split them
2023-10-25T09:45:17 < antto> i do hate farnell's pink bags >:/
2023-10-25T09:45:29 < qyx> I do hate farnell's trays
2023-10-25T09:45:51 < qyx> they are capable of putting 2 chips in a half meter tray
2023-10-25T09:46:01 < antto> but at least their label stickers come off easily and cleanly off of the bags, so i just repackage them in ziplocks
2023-10-25T09:46:56 < antto> qyx, we ordered 10 SAMD20 chips from microsh*tdirect, they sent them in a big pizza box, inside there was a whole reel with just the 10 chips
2023-10-25T09:47:07 < antto> i felt dumb ;P~
2023-10-25T09:47:43 < antto> the reel holds 5000 chips
2023-10-25T09:48:10 < antto> nice way to say "grow up"
2023-10-25T09:49:22 < antto> well other things are much more expensive at mouser/digikey, so it's all "it depends"
2023-10-25T09:49:40 < antto> i love the cheap and uber bright 0805 LEDs at comet.bg
2023-10-25T09:49:55 < antto> similar spec LEDs at mouser at like $0.5
2023-10-25T09:50:13 < antto> * are
2023-10-25T09:54:57 < antto> btw, i feel slightly dumb when i checked and it turns out that the 100pin version of this chip is more expensive at mouser than the 144pin version at verical
2023-10-25T09:55:03 < antto> are verical a legit distributor?
2023-10-25T09:56:25 < qyx> I am not switching distributors, I don't have that much time
2023-10-25T09:56:40 < qyx> I always buy tme and mouser
2023-10-25T09:57:07 < qyx> they both have a slightly different things
2023-10-25T09:57:11 < antto> https://www.verical.com/pd/stmicroelectronics-microcontroller-stm32h723zgt6-7400687
2023-10-25T09:57:57 < antto> yes, i personally buy from mouser and i like tme's catalog categorization and they have a ton of connectors and usually cheap
2023-10-25T09:58:18 < antto> i had to buy some audio codecs from digikey earlier in the chip crysis
2023-10-25T09:59:02 < antto> bluh, i guess i should stop hesitating on the exact chip and just finish the board with the 100pin version
2023-10-25T09:59:07 < antto> december is coming
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2023-10-25T10:37:54 < qyx> hm i guess I should learn some CMYK and dithering theory
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2023-10-25T13:56:48 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/stm32_marking.png   i hope this is obvious enough for aisler :)
2023-10-25T13:59:43 < qyx> you forgot (R) near the logo
2023-10-25T13:59:51 < qyx> and arm
2023-10-25T14:02:59 < jpa-> my chips don't have that
2023-10-25T15:24:02 < karlp> claims 1-24: canceled.  nice patent you got there...
2023-10-25T15:25:15 < karlp> lol, only claimed on wve and selective sodlering too.
2023-10-25T15:25:26 < karlp> good job, despite claiming all the variants of packaging and sieve sizes.
2023-10-25T15:25:38 < karlp> lets you makethat "patented" claim though.  par for the course.
2023-10-25T15:27:19 < karlp> jpa-: nice marking :)
2023-10-25T15:28:06 < ventYl> karlp: beheading patent trolls?
2023-10-25T15:28:28 < karlp> I wish...
2023-10-25T15:28:35 < karlp> these aren't trolls, it's the actual "inventor"
2023-10-25T15:28:46 < karlp> it' sjkust... patents are such worthless trash forthe most part.
2023-10-25T15:28:52 < ventYl> agreed
2023-10-25T15:29:00 < karlp> all just so that VC people believe you are "serious"
2023-10-25T15:29:16 < ventYl> who feeds the lawyers in such case?
2023-10-25T15:30:06 < karlp> on the one in question here, I'd imagine patent office rejected claims 1--24, and the amendment is easier and cheaper than refiling. (we did the same for one at $oldjob)
2023-10-25T15:30:21 < ventYl> do you have to feed yours and then open another legal case to reclaim expenses?
2023-10-25T15:30:24 < karlp> so lawyers just got paid by this interflux
2023-10-25T15:30:29 < qyx> so you can say hey I have a patent for that
2023-10-25T15:30:56 < qyx> but without 1-24
2023-10-25T15:31:21 < qyx> I like doing orders for 299.64 € with 300 € limit
2023-10-25T15:31:46 < qyx> every single order is 295-300
2023-10-25T15:31:53 < ventYl> karlp: ah, so this is let's patent this shit case. not let's use this shitty patent to get some free money
2023-10-25T15:36:01 < Ecco> I have a very dumb Altium question: is it possible to "group" components in an SCH Library view?
2023-10-25T15:36:11 < Ecco> (Using a local .SchLib file)
2023-10-25T15:36:32 < Ecco> All I can seem to get are two columns, "Design Item ID" and "Description"
2023-10-25T15:37:08 < zyp> jpa-, 2L design?
2023-10-25T15:38:20 < zyp> hmm, no visible pour on top, so probably not
2023-10-25T15:38:36 < zyp> but that looks like poor via placement for a 4L design
2023-10-25T15:39:35 < qyx> poor?
2023-10-25T15:41:04 < zyp> yeah, dense
2023-10-25T15:52:29 < karlp> ventYl: yup
2023-10-25T15:53:00 < jpa-> 4L design, but i think it is good enough  https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/viaplacement.png
2023-10-25T15:53:22 < karlp> that looks... busy.
2023-10-25T15:53:36 < jpa-> it is.. 144 pins and i'm using almost all
2023-10-25T15:54:08 < karlp> is this still IDE shits?
2023-10-25T15:54:14 < karlp> or "scsi"
2023-10-25T15:54:23 < jpa-> nope, not this time
2023-10-25T15:54:33 < jpa-> expensive industrial measurement stuff
2023-10-25T15:56:30 < qyx> that interests me
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2023-10-25T16:02:02 < Ecco> https://www.altium.com/documentation/sites/default/files/resize/wiki_attachments/320528/ComponentsPanel_Expanded_AD21_2-961x789.png
2023-10-25T16:02:17 < Ecco> Is it possible to have such a view with a local SchLib?
2023-10-25T16:02:28 < Ecco> Or do we *have* to use the "Worskpace" thing?
2023-10-25T16:03:48 < jpa-> why not ask altium support? that's what you are paying for, right?
2023-10-25T16:04:09 < Ecco> Indeed :)
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2023-10-25T16:16:53 < karlp> https://www.eenewseurope.com/en/cost-effective-induction-motor-position-sensing-technology/
2023-10-25T16:17:56 < PhantomWork> hi there, HAL_UART_Receive(&huart3, (uint8_t *)rxData, 3, 1000)... It receive 3 bytes with a small delay between each, but it timeout   known issue or I messed up somewhere?
2023-10-25T16:19:34 < jpa-> your description is not clear, but the solution is probably just to read the HAL source code to see what it is actually doing
2023-10-25T16:20:08 < jpa-> you are specifying a timeout of 1000 there, though i'm not sure what unit that is supposed to be in
2023-10-25T16:20:20 < PhantomWork> in milliseconds
2023-10-25T16:20:37 < jpa-> so does it timeout in 1000 ms or sooner?
2023-10-25T16:20:56 < PhantomWork> it's supposed to be about a 17ms transmission
2023-10-25T16:21:13 < PhantomWork> so 1000 is wayyyy more than what is needed
2023-10-25T16:21:27 < jpa-> so how long is it when you look with scope or logic analyzer? toggle IO pin when it timeouts
2023-10-25T16:24:30 < PhantomWork> I don't have the scope right now
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2023-10-25T16:31:36 < jpa-> then you'll probably want to use gdb to figure out what is happening
2023-10-25T16:32:17 < jbo> hi all
2023-10-25T16:33:17 < karlp> so, do I bother trying to figure out some sort of motion sensor out of the pieces I have left, or call it good?
2023-10-25T16:33:20  * karlp sighs.
2023-10-25T16:33:40 < karlp> having to push a physical/homeassistnat button to launch this thing is  completely uncool.
2023-10-25T16:33:44 < qyx> TE's piezo cable under the carpet
2023-10-25T16:33:52 < jbo> karlp, what is "this thing"?
2023-10-25T16:33:53 < jpa-> microphone
2023-10-25T16:33:57 < qyx> camera
2023-10-25T16:34:06 < jpa-> jbo: spiders to keep kids away during halloween
2023-10-25T16:34:18 < jbo> aah
2023-10-25T16:34:19 < karlp> way too late for that, though I do actually have a esp32 cam module here lying around it.
2023-10-25T16:34:22 < jbo> could have just hired blaxter
2023-10-25T16:34:31 < karlp> to do what, push the button like a monkey?
2023-10-25T16:34:35 < karlp> or keep kids away?
2023-10-25T16:34:56 < karlp> I need to set up a hotspot on my phone and take the laptop outside.
2023-10-25T16:34:57 < jbo> fairly sure he could handle both and add some racist comments for free while doing it
2023-10-25T16:35:10 < karlp> I can't record the front of the house and push buttons in the HA ui at the same time on the phone :)
2023-10-25T16:35:21 < BrainDamage> if you can get a semiconductive foam, you can add two wire meshes on top and bottom and use it as a mat switch
2023-10-25T16:35:22 < karlp> new job starts tomorrow, we're kinda out of time.
2023-10-25T16:50:08 < jbo> karlp, what's the new job?
2023-10-25T16:56:34 < karlp> jbo: "software engineer" at Marel, in one of the embedded teams
2023-10-25T16:59:06 < karlp> high technology: https://nc.beeroclock.net/s/CmY8xRDfNEdKNRR 
2023-10-25T16:59:10 < karlp> by the door: https://nc.beeroclock.net/s/Me8QKJ5g8g6M3Cz
2023-10-25T16:59:38 < karlp> wider view: https://nc.beeroclock.net/s/odYKgm8ia5f2btz
2023-10-25T16:59:54 < karlp> (looks better in the dark)
2023-10-25T17:04:36 < jbo> karlp, good luck with the new job!
2023-10-25T17:04:40 < jbo> and the spiders :D
2023-10-25T17:04:57 < jbo> that's some professionally looking electricty outlet taping
2023-10-25T17:06:18 < jpa-> we better be nice to karlp from now on or he'll offer us a tour through a poultry processing machine
2023-10-25T17:10:45 < karlp> that's all 12v wiring, just using spare household cabling
2023-10-25T17:11:19 < karlp> no, poultry is all ex stork in steffan land, iceland is more fish, and my group in particular, scales.
2023-10-25T17:16:24 < ventYl> fuck, I might as well give up software and go fishing
2023-10-25T17:31:58  * qyx likes
2023-10-25T17:32:21 < qyx> where is kaki, I found some DIY ATV trailers yesterday
2023-10-25T17:32:33 < qyx> built by some finns
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2023-10-25T17:36:58 < PhantomWork> just for sanity check, timer clock is 72MHz right?
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2023-10-25T17:38:05 < PhantomWork> and with PSC 0 and period 1894 that is ~38kHz right?
2023-10-25T17:40:04 < karlp> ok, pir shit does ~3m. might try and wire it up. not sure how to waterproof it though...
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2023-10-25T17:44:29 < zyp> PhantomWork, depends a lot
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2023-10-25T17:48:18 < PhantomWork> karlp: black trash bag are IR invisible
2023-10-25T17:48:27 < PhantomWork> zyp: depend on what?
2023-10-25T17:54:01 -!- hexo [~hexo@user/hexo] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
2023-10-25T18:14:46 < jpa-> it depends on what you configure it to be, and what the system clock frequency is anyway
2023-10-25T18:14:54 < jpa-> and which bus the timer is on
2023-10-25T18:23:24 < zyp> yep
2023-10-25T18:23:31 < zyp> particularly the bus thing
2023-10-25T18:23:51 < zyp> different timers can run at different speeds as a result on being on different buses
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2023-10-25T19:41:21 < Steffanx> didnt you see the scary spider?
2023-10-25T19:41:29 < Steffanx> oops scrollup lag
2023-10-25T20:06:10 < Ecco> What are the shortcomings of KiCad as compared to Altium?
2023-10-25T20:06:37 < BrainDamage> dongs will hate you
2023-10-25T20:06:51 < Ecco> ok :)
2023-10-25T20:09:02 < Ecco> What about EasyEDA? Is it crap?
2023-10-25T20:11:19 < jpa-> easyeda seems like beginner stuff
2023-10-25T20:11:46 < Ecco> It's weird how many software companies are slow to switch to web technologies
2023-10-25T20:12:00 < Ecco> I mean, it seems like it's an obvious decision from a technical standpoint
2023-10-25T20:13:13 < Ecco> Just do whatever Figma did
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2023-10-25T20:14:17 < jpa-> it seems so many switch, considering how often the end result is crap
2023-10-25T20:14:33 < Ecco> switch from EasyEDA to something else?
2023-10-25T20:14:59 < jpa-> *so many companies switch to web technologies for applications that would be better as normal desktop applications
2023-10-25T20:15:03 < Ecco> oh
2023-10-25T20:15:30 < Ecco> Well, I mean, the benefits are so obvious: no installation problem, no piracy issues, collaborative by default
2023-10-25T20:15:49 < Ecco> (works on any OS, including iPads which people do use in a professional setting)
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2023-10-25T20:16:26 < jpa-> yet if it can't get the job done, it is useless
2023-10-25T20:16:52 < Ecco> sure
2023-10-25T20:17:29 < jpa-> also often the companies that go that route, also make sure to turn totally evil at some point and make the program unavailable unless you give them more money
2023-10-25T20:17:42 < Ecco> yes indeed
2023-10-25T20:17:50 < Ecco> But KiCad for instance
2023-10-25T20:17:51 < jpa-> so people who can think more than a year ahead avoid locking themselves and their knowledge into such traps
2023-10-25T20:17:56 < Ecco> I don't understand why it uses Qt
2023-10-25T20:18:00 < Ecco> should just use web technologies
2023-10-25T20:18:12 < Ecco> Kind of like Visual Studio Code does
2023-10-25T20:18:29 < BrainDamage> do you realize the amount of efforts to re-write existing code?
2023-10-25T20:18:43 < jpa-> vscode wastes a lot of RAM though, for being just a text editor
2023-10-25T20:18:45 < Ecco> Well, having written code for close to 30 years, yes, I do :)
2023-10-25T20:19:03 < Ecco> jpa-: That's just because they want to ship as a separate app. Could just be a tab in your browser.
2023-10-25T20:19:15 < BrainDamage> so then why are you suggesting the #1 reason projects die, for a project?
2023-10-25T20:19:19 < Ecco> :-D
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2023-10-25T20:19:55 < BrainDamage> the amount of successful rewrites of large projects can be counted in one hand
2023-10-25T20:20:02 < jpa-> Ecco: eh, it would waste just as much RAM, though it also wouldn't even work in firefox probably
2023-10-25T20:20:39 < BrainDamage> also, what exactly would be the advantages?
2023-10-25T20:20:48 < jpa-> basing a project that has taken 20+ years to reach a good state on a technology that is not compatible with browsers from even 5 years ago seems unwise
2023-10-25T20:21:14 < jpa-> like trying to slowly build a stone building while the bottom layers sink into mud
2023-10-25T20:22:46 < Ecco> Well, in the case of PCB design
2023-10-25T20:22:49 < Ecco> the one thing it would solve
2023-10-25T20:22:54 < Ecco> is the collaborative problem
2023-10-25T20:23:14 < Ecco> It'd make it super easy to have multiple people work on the same schematics / PCB, at the same time
2023-10-25T20:23:27 < BrainDamage> absolutely not?
2023-10-25T20:23:33 < Ecco> (which is where Google Docs and Figma obliterate Word or Photoshop)
2023-10-25T20:23:36 < Ecco> Why not?
2023-10-25T20:23:36 < srk> D
2023-10-25T20:23:38 < srk> :D
2023-10-25T20:23:49 < BrainDamage> because it doesn't magically give you a syncronization mechanism
2023-10-25T20:24:04 < jpa-> Ecco: why do you think web technology provides any benefit for collaboration?
2023-10-25T20:24:12 < srk> I always die inside a little more when I have to use gdocs
2023-10-25T20:24:13 < Ecco> ok you guys are nitpicking
2023-10-25T20:24:22 < BrainDamage> no, I am seriously asking
2023-10-25T20:24:28 < Ecco> I don't mean "just rebuild KiCad w/ emscripten"
2023-10-25T20:24:40 < jpa-> the internal communication mechanisms still need to exist - and because of scalability, the server side won't even be on a single machine so it could just as well be multiple desktop programs communicating
2023-10-25T20:24:50 < Ecco> jpa-: Absolutely
2023-10-25T20:25:05 < Ecco> technically you're 100% correct
2023-10-25T20:25:16 < BrainDamage> using web tech won't make it any easier - or harder
2023-10-25T20:25:25 < BrainDamage> it's 100% custom backend code
2023-10-25T20:25:30 < Ecco> true
2023-10-25T20:25:39 < jpa-> some things it does make harder, like not losing my work when internet connection or server goes down
2023-10-25T20:26:31 < jpa-> and honestly, i have never had a PCB project where i would have wanted to have multiple people editing simultaneously
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2023-10-25T20:26:48 < BrainDamage> the main thing using web tech give you, is accessibility, as in, you don't need to install the software on a target machine, if it's hosted on the web
2023-10-25T20:27:03 < jpa-> for viewing simultaneously, screen sharing has usually been the best option though i can see the point having easier way to share views
2023-10-25T20:27:19 < BrainDamage> however, web hosted software has several limitations, including not being able to directlly write to the machine's filesystem due to sandboxing
2023-10-25T20:27:54 < Ecco> yes, but if you really embrace web tech (including a backend) then you most likely don't need FS access
2023-10-25T20:28:05 < jpa-> the only collaborative web applications i have seen actually work have all been just glorified web editors
2023-10-25T20:28:13 < jpa-> i think onshape is supposed to be ok, but i haven't tried it
2023-10-25T20:28:16 < Ecco> Figma is pretty cool
2023-10-25T20:28:53 < jpa-> you use it a lot?
2023-10-25T20:29:05 < Ecco> I've spent a few hours here and there
2023-10-25T20:29:31 < Ecco> Just like Google Docs really (not that I like Google but I think it's miles ahead of MS Office)
2023-10-25T20:29:42 < jpa-> doesn't sound worth 12 EUR/month then :)
2023-10-25T20:30:07 < Ecco> They have a free edition if you want to try
2023-10-25T20:30:23 < jpa-> no, i won't take such vendor lock :)
2023-10-25T20:30:38 < Ecco> Understandable
2023-10-25T20:30:46 < BrainDamage> call me weird, but having mission-critical data on a remote host only sounds like a bad idea to me
2023-10-25T20:30:55 < Ecco> I completely agree
2023-10-25T20:30:56 < jpa-> besides, it's my clients who bring all the unusable web tools and actual communication still happens by email
2023-10-25T20:31:03 < BrainDamage> offsite backups are good, but offsite storage as the only mechanism isn't
2023-10-25T20:31:42 < jpa-> i think at some point web might transition to some kind of virtual machine system, where you get the apps and data but the client-server distinction fades away
2023-10-25T20:31:59 < Ecco> what do you mean?
2023-10-25T20:32:08 < srk> webassembly :)
2023-10-25T20:32:15 < Ecco> like the server sends you a whole blob?
2023-10-25T20:32:21 < Ecco> That's exactly what Figma does already
2023-10-25T20:32:50 < Ecco> you're sent an "app" that interacts w/ your local canvas, and it runs in a "vm" locally (webassembly indeed)
2023-10-25T20:32:53 < jpa-> you get a blob from distributed network (like bittorrent), and send messages directly between running instances of that application
2023-10-25T20:33:12 < srk> just compile kicad to wasm and add CRDTs
2023-10-25T20:33:21 < jpa-> and yes, some webapps already do similar things in very convoluted way because they have to build on defective web technologies
2023-10-25T20:33:21 < Ecco> yeah :-D
2023-10-25T20:34:19 < BrainDamage> I saw some both cute and horrible hacks at the same time that uses webrtc for p2p comms
2023-10-25T20:34:22 < jpa-> the basic model of current web technology will not scale at all if humanity ever becomes multi-planetary.. whereas kicad will still run just fine
2023-10-25T20:35:21 < Ecco> I'm learning about KiCad now
2023-10-25T20:35:28 < BrainDamage> it's not just interplanetary, it's about graceful degradation
2023-10-25T20:35:33 < Ecco> so apparently it doesn't have the concept of a "component" or "part", does it?
2023-10-25T20:35:50 < BrainDamage> adding an online-only dependency to most things adds an unnecessary failure mechanism
2023-10-25T20:35:54 < Ecco> It has "symbols" and "footprints", but not really a component. Does it?
2023-10-25T20:36:01 < jpa-> Ecco: no, if you put a resistor symbol in schematic it doesn't matter if it is through-hole or 0603 or 1206 on the PCB
2023-10-25T20:36:17 < jpa-> you can specify default footprint in the symbol file though
2023-10-25T20:36:21 < Ecco> well, yes of course, but then what about my BoM?
2023-10-25T20:36:25 < BrainDamage> the symbol is the component
2023-10-25T20:36:35 < Ecco> I mean, eventually it might matter if it's a X5R or X7R cap
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2023-10-25T20:36:42 < BrainDamage> you'll map it later
2023-10-25T20:36:45 < jpa-> sure, you put the part number in symbol attributes
2023-10-25T20:36:49 < Steffanx> Ecco, fyi kicad uses wxwidgets, not Qt
2023-10-25T20:37:07 < Ecco> Steffanx: Oh indeed, you're right. Thanks
2023-10-25T20:37:09 < jpa-> it's just text though - whether it is X7R or X5R doesn't change the gerbers in any way
2023-10-25T20:37:40 < Ecco> jpa-: That's true indeed
2023-10-25T20:37:45 < jpa-> BOM handling in kicad is not very good so far, though kikit works ok for me
2023-10-25T20:38:17 < BrainDamage> it's better than before when there was a separate mapping program *shudders*
2023-10-25T20:38:33 < jpa-> what annoys me is that if i change the value of a resistor to e.g. 1kohm, i have to remember to change the part number to a part with 1kohm also
2023-10-25T20:41:57 < Ecco> What if you use that resistor in a bunch of places?
2023-10-25T20:42:33 < jpa-> the schematic editor table view groups by selected columns, so it is easy to set the same part number for all 1k resistors
2023-10-25T20:44:01 < jpa-> (and if you have favourite parts, you could add the part number to the library symbol also)
2023-10-25T20:44:19 < Ecco> Indeed
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2023-10-25T21:05:57 < Ecco> What would be Altium's "OutJob" file equivalent in KiCad?
2023-10-25T21:06:12 < Ecco> I kind of like the idea of putting all the "export settings" in a file, and then just hitting "go"
2023-10-25T21:11:43 < antto> did someone say kicad
2023-10-25T21:11:49 < Ecco> yes? :-D
2023-10-25T21:14:13 < antto> Ecco, kicad allows generic components (like the Resistor symbol) as well as... how were they called... atomic ones?
2023-10-25T21:16:36 < antto> with my BOM generator it's easy to spot when you have cloned the 1k resistor, changed its value, but forgotten to change its part number
2023-10-25T21:16:43 < antto> [/shameless_self_promotion]
2023-10-25T21:17:10 < Ecco> ok :)
2023-10-25T21:17:58 < antto> https://antonsavov.net/kicad/pmkb/
2023-10-25T21:18:20 < antto> so much blah-blah, and not a single example BOM
2023-10-25T21:19:34 < Ecco> :)
2023-10-25T21:20:24 < antto> oh, wait, there is... https://antonsavov.net/kicad/pmkb/x0xlarge-pmkb_20200609.html
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2023-10-25T21:24:09 < Ecco> Is it possible to have multiple pages in a schematics?
2023-10-25T21:24:52 < Ecco> No hierarchical
2023-10-25T21:24:54 < Ecco> just flat files
2023-10-25T21:25:29 < antto> no
2023-10-25T21:25:44 < antto> you always have the main page
2023-10-25T21:26:14 < antto> but you don't have to go 100 levels deep
2023-10-25T21:26:24 < Ecco> Hmm, ok :)
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2023-10-25T21:42:21 < jpa-> you can draw the main sheet like table of contents if you don't want to use hierarchy
2023-10-25T21:42:40 < Ecco> not sure I understand what you mean
2023-10-25T21:52:22 < Ecco> In KiCad, is it possible to "center" a label?
2023-10-25T21:52:32 < zyp> hierarchical with a dummy toplevel and everything a direct child of it
2023-10-25T21:52:53 < Ecco> Yeah, but then you have one weird page in the PDF output. I guess I cna live with it tho
2023-10-25T21:53:06 < Ecco> Labels in KiCad are weird
2023-10-25T21:53:16 < Ecco> "local" labels are bottom aligned, global ones are centered
2023-10-25T21:53:27 < zyp> like jpa- said, use it as a table of contents
2023-10-25T21:53:36 < Ecco> also, the "global" ones are a bit too "thick" so if you use them for IC they hit each other
2023-10-25T21:54:03 < antto> doesn't matter
2023-10-25T21:54:11 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/99poeWB.png -> DAT0 is not aligned with DB0
2023-10-25T21:54:35 < antto> this would be a disaster if you had OCD
2023-10-25T21:55:06 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/GTiHVZZ.png
2023-10-25T21:55:09 < Ecco> The global ones are centered
2023-10-25T21:55:17 < Ecco> but super "thick" they mostly hit each other :(
2023-10-25T21:55:30 < Ecco> "this would be a disaster if you had OCD" -> whaddya mean "if"?
2023-10-25T21:56:35 < antto> https://i.imgur.com/KKnnh0Q.png
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2023-10-25T22:52:51 < jpa-> the alignment differenxe is annoying, though it helps if you mostly use buses for global stuff
2023-10-25T22:59:31 < Steffanx> It's not any different in pro tools like altium, is it?
2023-10-25T23:01:39 < qyx> I am using top level sheets like this https://bin.jvnv.net/file/inYkg/Screenshot_2023-10-25_22-01-16.png
2023-10-25T23:02:21 < qyx> I would call it a cover page
2023-10-25T23:02:55 < qyx> you can see what components do the device have, it has an enclosure, it is labelled and if you are interested in any particular part, just click
2023-10-25T23:05:55 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/yWnkW/Screenshot_2023-10-25_22-05-36.png
2023-10-25T23:06:04 < qyx> and I like kicad global labels, they look cool
2023-10-25T23:07:14 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/mN6mq/Screenshot_2023-10-25_22-06-53.png
2023-10-25T23:21:02 < Steffanx> How can you OC[whateverletter]D can deal with this qyx ?
2023-10-25T23:21:21 < Steffanx> Global labels for non-global signals?
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2023-10-25T23:31:11 < jbo> I recently looked into the KiCAD source code and it was a disaster
2023-10-25T23:32:01 < jbo> quote from KiCAD mark: > We are aware, the code base is a clusterfuck and it's a huge task to fix. It's the result of 2 decades of code piling up.
2023-10-25T23:35:31 < jbo> rel: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=271878
2023-10-25T23:45:38 < Steffanx> Luckily only 2 people in the world use freebsd. Only one of them uses kicad on it.
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2023-10-25T23:50:16 < Steffanx> Does this mean you found yourself a new project to work on jbo?
2023-10-25T23:51:37 < qyx> Steffanx: because.
2023-10-25T23:59:12 < Steffanx> qyx: thanks
--- Day changed to loka 26 2023
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2023-10-26T01:19:02 < Ecco> Answering my own question of earlier: in KiCad you can "Schematic Setup → Formatting → Global label size"
2023-10-26T01:19:08 < Ecco> to change labels' margins
2023-10-26T01:26:54 < qyx> don't do that
2023-10-26T01:27:05 < qyx> they will be ugly
2023-10-26T01:30:54 < Ecco> Why?
2023-10-26T01:31:05 < Ecco> It's a matter of personal taste, isn't it?
2023-10-26T01:31:12 < Ecco> The default margin makes them fit on the grid
2023-10-26T01:31:19 < Ecco> which is good in a certain way
2023-10-26T01:31:30 < Ecco> but if you want to stack them, then they look weird
2023-10-26T01:42:57 < Ecco> WTF is KiCad's "De Morgan"?
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2023-10-26T12:43:33 < jpa-> hahaha now i know why aisler wanted me to email them before i submit my next assembly order
2023-10-26T12:43:45 < jpa-> they manually quoted over 2x the price their automatic quote tool gave
2023-10-26T12:48:59 < ventYl> just to check the correct alignment of MCUs?
2023-10-26T12:50:13 < jpa-> maybe they require an expert for that
2023-10-26T12:50:39 < jpa-> does anyone have a favourite PCBA company in EU?
2023-10-26T12:51:13 < jbo> jpa-, what kind of technology & volume?
2023-10-26T12:53:52 < ventYl> ok, so I flushed water accumulation tank to install electric heater, pressurized it and it seems it seals. now I want to fill it with water and I realized I can't. Since the last time I filled it with water, the piping was changed.
2023-10-26T12:54:00 < ventYl> there's no outlet anymore
2023-10-26T12:55:10 < jpa-> jbo: prototype quantities, 0.2mm trace/space, single-sided SMD assembly + a few THT parts
2023-10-26T12:55:19 < jpa-> 3 pcs for now
2023-10-26T12:55:39 < jpa-> aisler online tool quoted 700 EUR, their manual quote is 1600 EUR
2023-10-26T12:55:49 < jbo> oh, that I would just do in-house
2023-10-26T12:56:33 < jpa-> me too, if i wasn't busy; and the first proto batch that i got with the online quote was ok price, at least if they had assembled it correct
2023-10-26T12:56:45 < jbo> see PM
2023-10-26T13:00:38 < ventYl> jpa-: can't you let them assemble everything but the MCU? MCU goes almost the last anyway
2023-10-26T13:01:41 < jpa-> i don't think it is really about the MCU anymore :)
2023-10-26T13:04:42 < jbo> I once checked aisler for PCBA and I was like... nope.
2023-10-26T13:04:59 < jbo> anything I can't handle internally I'll give to a local company
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2023-10-26T13:11:48 < karlp> wow. windows is fucking horrible.
2023-10-26T13:12:06 < karlp> network and bluetooth keep reconnecting, usb keyboard sometimes works in a new window, sometimes not...
2023-10-26T13:14:07 < karlp> 52 page code of conduct document.
2023-10-26T13:14:13 < karlp> whee, corporate lyfe
2023-10-26T13:25:20 < jbo> karlp, having fun at new corp?
2023-10-26T13:34:42 < mawk> zyp: Jean-Emmanuel de la Tiretière decides to play a plebeian's sport, basketball, and is doing free throws. he misses his first throw, and ends the day with an average of 80% successful shots. show that at some point the average was exactly 75%
2023-10-26T13:48:29 < ventYl> karlp: treat it as a bloombug. it takes time and you are paid by hour
2023-10-26T13:49:32 < karlp> so far, nothing to do but read corp web, and wonder why headset disconnects and reconne ts permanently.
2023-10-26T13:55:01 < ventYl> fairly standard, the longest time corpo took to realize I am there was like two months
2023-10-26T13:59:24 < mawk> my headset does the same karlp 
2023-10-26T13:59:26 < mawk> even on Android
2023-10-26T13:59:30 < mawk> look at the logs with journalctl -u bluetooth -n 200 -f
2023-10-26T13:59:32 < mawk> or maybe it's bluetoothd
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2023-10-26T14:18:25 < Steffanx> On windows?
2023-10-26T15:00:30 < ventYl> WSL FTW
2023-10-26T15:03:14 < karlp> yeah, windows has about a day left on it, 
2023-10-26T15:03:33 < karlp> reading the onboarding shit and then it's getting wiped, full support from corp to do so, so that's nice.
2023-10-26T15:03:53 < karlp> going to get to use ethercat too, so that's new and trendy
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2023-10-26T16:03:10 < jbo> zyp, did you ever work with TMCL-IDE?
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2023-10-26T17:18:38 < zyp> jbo, first I hear of it
2023-10-26T17:21:05 < zyp> mawk, that sounds intuitively wrong
2023-10-26T17:21:24 < jbo> aye
2023-10-26T17:24:06 < jbo> aisler is spamming again
2023-10-26T17:25:48 < ventYl> asking if the discount they gave you feels right?
2023-10-26T17:26:10 < zyp> mawk, ok, it's right
2023-10-26T17:28:57 < zyp> mawk, start with x=0, y=1, add 1 to x or y until 4x=y, it's impossible to do that without passing through 3x=y first since initial state has y>3x
2023-10-26T17:39:56 < mawk> you start with 0/1 and end with (4n)/(5n)
2023-10-26T17:40:19 < mawk> you either go from (a; b) to (a; b+1) or (a+1; b+1)
2023-10-26T17:40:22 < mawk> where a < b
2023-10-26T17:40:54 < mawk> well we have points on a lattice zyp, you could pass through y = 3x without stopping precisely on the line zyp
2023-10-26T17:41:09 < mawk> it turns out that here we have to stop on the line, but in general it's not guaranteed 
2023-10-26T17:47:09 < mawk> my proof is that if we skept 3/4 that means we went from p/q to (p+1)/(q+1) where p/q < 3/4 and 3/4 < (p+1)/(q+1) at some point; which gives 4p-3q < 0 and 4(p+1)-3(q+1) > 0, which gives (4p-3q)+1 > 0 and (4p-3q) < 0 which is impossible 
2023-10-26T17:47:47 < jbo> https://marc.info/?l=oss-security&m=169754375211439
2023-10-26T17:47:51 < mawk> as 4p-3q is at most -1 so we get 0 > 0 which doesn't really work
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2023-10-26T17:54:23 < karlp> ok, now the dell lightning dock thing is shitting itself periodically, making the keyboard drop out.
2023-10-26T18:14:14 < jbo> the adventures of corp-man
2023-10-26T18:17:36 < mawk> lightning?????
2023-10-26T18:17:55 < mawk> are you a mac user or something
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2023-10-26T18:20:50 < karlp> thunderbolt sorry
2023-10-26T18:21:01 < karlp> though it's fucking using displaylink, so i guess that's the problem
2023-10-26T18:21:25 < karlp> we'll see if it works any better in linux
2023-10-26T18:30:22 < PaulFertser> Isn't displaylink the protocol to connect displays over USB?
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2023-10-26T20:36:57 < karlp> yeah,
2023-10-26T20:37:18 < karlp> it seems pretty unnecessary on this which has a usb-c with thunderbolt icon on it, but... anyway,. that's a tomorrow thing..
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2023-10-26T21:43:45 < Ecco> Folks that have used both KiCad and Altium (recent versions), how would you compare then? I assume Altium's better, but how/where?
2023-10-26T21:44:20 < zyp> jbo should know
2023-10-26T21:47:29 < qyx> zyp is not recent enough?
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2023-10-26T21:51:50 < zyp> I've got AD23 now, but I haven't had time to use it much yet
2023-10-26T21:52:03 < zyp> but I don't have kicad experience
2023-10-26T21:52:31 < zyp> got into altium a decade ago and got stuck there
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2023-10-26T22:59:51 < qyx> hm I though you were using kikecad for home projects
2023-10-26T23:52:34 < jbo> Ecco, yeah I have used Altium, Diptrace and KiCAD extensively and interchangably the last few years.
--- Day changed pe loka 27 2023
2023-10-27T00:00:38 < qyx> dip what
2023-10-27T00:03:00 < BrainDamage> you more likely recognize it by dongs' slang "dicktrace"
2023-10-27T00:03:30 < BrainDamage> it was a favourite tool of leeloominai, which was one of dongs' favourite antagonists
2023-10-27T00:11:59 < qyx> yeah I know both and diptrace too but I didn't expect anyone except dongs used it
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2023-10-27T00:53:32 < gurki> Ecco: kicad feels like a 10 year old version of altium
2023-10-27T00:53:41 < gurki> thats probably a reasonable way to describe it
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2023-10-27T01:58:17 < jbo> gurki, that but then also way less consistent
2023-10-27T01:58:41 < jbo> 10 year old altium is at least still a professional grade tool (not to complain about KiCAD - money drives the business at the end of the day)
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2023-10-27T02:30:15 < qyx> I must say I like despide being dumb and minimal sometimes
2023-10-27T02:30:21 < qyx> I can get the work done
2023-10-27T02:31:01 < qyx> like the old weller, dumb and basic but once you get used to it it works as intended
2023-10-27T02:31:39 < qyx> although I would like to have auto standby
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2023-10-27T02:44:27 < qyx> zyp: what TE-width do you use with your test rig?
2023-10-27T02:44:38 < qyx> I mean the plugin unit width
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2023-10-27T05:02:44 < englishman> altium was pretty good 10 years ago
2023-10-27T05:03:12 < englishman> wow you still use diptrace? nice
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2023-10-27T05:17:43 < qyx> hm, for SPE or ethernet in general, having an unshielded cable mean it can pick up a bit of common mode noise
2023-10-27T05:18:16 < qyx> 10base-t1l recommends shielded cable but doesn't use a transformer (usually), instead it uses only a CM choke
2023-10-27T05:18:50 < qyx> so, does this mean I can overengineer it and use a transformer to (also) fight the possible CM noise when using unshielded cables?
2023-10-27T05:19:13 < qyx> also found this https://www.ieee802.org/3/cg/public/adhoc/Graber_3cg_01a_0119.pdf
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2023-10-27T15:03:29 < karlp> hrm, netbeans no longer even supports c/c++ with cmake/scons/make integration, only "lightweight" and the method of using the old plugin requires a historic version of jdk.
2023-10-27T15:03:33 < karlp> guess it's time to move on.
2023-10-27T15:03:43 < karlp> try and adjust to this vscode idea I guess.
2023-10-27T15:03:44 < jpa-> vscode for the win
2023-10-27T15:05:07 < karlp> I've hated it's out of box experience repeatedly, but I can see there's others using it here, so maybe it's set up better now.
2023-10-27T15:05:52 < jpa-> it did take some time to get used to, but i think i'm not very far from the out-of-box settings
2023-10-27T15:06:19 < jpa-> or if i am, it is better at remembering my settings than kicad, where i have to reconfigure key bindings after every major release
2023-10-27T15:22:15 < zyp> I don't think I have any major config changes on mine apart from having the vscodevim extension installed
2023-10-27T15:23:34 < zyp> and the latter works great
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2023-10-27T15:29:02 < jpa-> with my habits of having maybe 5 simultaneous projects in different desktops open, the RAM usage is a bit annoying
2023-10-27T15:29:10 < jpa-> but i guess i should just invest in upgrading to 64GB
2023-10-27T15:33:04 < Steffanx> You now have.. 4GB ?
2023-10-27T15:36:04 < zyp> I've given up getting annoyed over RAM use and decided that the solution is to just have enough RAM
2023-10-27T15:43:38 < jpa-> i have 32 GB now
2023-10-27T15:46:17 < Steffanx> Here firefox easily beats vscode :)
2023-10-27T15:46:21 < Steffanx> but yeah. more ram.
2023-10-27T15:48:40 < mawk> I have 64 GiB in my laptop
2023-10-27T15:48:44 < mawk> thanks to defective RAM
2023-10-27T15:49:12 < mawk> I had a 32 stick with a bit stuck high that obliterated by btrfs filesystem several times, so I tried to RMA it and they sent me a new one and I kept the old one
2023-10-27T15:49:12 < Steffanx> no one stops you from buying more.
2023-10-27T15:49:21 < Steffanx> oh
2023-10-27T15:49:35 < Steffanx> thanks to.. as in a positive thank to :P
2023-10-27T15:50:10 < zyp> I've got 16G now, after the motherboard started refusing to recognize more than two sticks
2023-10-27T15:50:12 < Steffanx> but why keep it mr mawk ?
2023-10-27T15:50:27 < mawk> then I did some dark magic to ignore the faulty page so I have 63.999996185302734 GiB now
2023-10-27T15:50:33 < zyp> OTOH I've got 80G in the work computer
2023-10-27T15:50:37 < mawk> it works both in linux and windows
2023-10-27T15:50:54 < Steffanx> hm
2023-10-27T15:54:44 < mawk> memmap=1K%0xdeadbeef+2
2023-10-27T15:54:48 < mawk> on the kernel command line
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2023-10-27T15:55:23 < mawk> and on windows: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/whea/how-to-manage-the-pfa-memory-list
2023-10-27T15:55:29 < mawk> there are two methods depending on the windows version
2023-10-27T15:55:33 < mawk> in the bootloader BCD or in the registryu
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2023-10-27T16:02:12 < mawk> are null bytes authorized in ISO-14443-3 UIDs?
2023-10-27T16:02:19 < mawk> the spec only says something about the very first byte
2023-10-27T16:02:24 < mawk> but says the rest are random
2023-10-27T16:02:42 < mawk> I need to refactor my code to allow for null bytes if it's the case
2023-10-27T16:03:32 < karlp> fuck display link sucks though
2023-10-27T16:03:44 < karlp> it's way more reliable in linux than it was in windows, but it's still fucking trash.
2023-10-27T16:04:08 < karlp> if the laptop goes to sleep at all, when it come sback, it's thrown out the dual monitor config and moved all the windows back to the laptop screen again.
2023-10-27T16:04:22 < zyp> heh
2023-10-27T16:04:24 < karlp> my old thunderbolt dock behaved properly for that.
2023-10-27T16:04:54 < zyp> the dell shit that I had at $oldjob worked surprisingly well
2023-10-27T16:04:57 < karlp> apparently my predecessor goit this _because_ it worked better, according to the local IT guy who came around.
2023-10-27T16:05:22 < karlp> I'm not entirely convinced by this single big 42" monitor either, but we'll try it out for a while..
2023-10-27T16:06:24 < karlp> I need new keyboard shortcuts to do a "throw into a corner sized" instead of the meta-left and meta-right that give things half a screen.
2023-10-27T16:07:44 < mawk> I have only a single 13.4" screen
2023-10-27T16:08:05 < mawk> but it's 4k so if you have good eyes you can use small font size
2023-10-27T16:10:21 < Steffanx> i assume you have a proper screen in the office at work?
2023-10-27T16:10:51 < mawk> yes but I don't use it
2023-10-27T16:11:04 < Steffanx> -_-
2023-10-27T16:11:12 < mawk> my screen is a touch screen also it's pretty cool to look at schematics or other pdfs
2023-10-27T16:12:46 < mawk> I interviewed my ex-manager a few weeks ago
2023-10-27T16:12:52 < mawk> and I got him hired
2023-10-27T16:12:57 < mawk> lol
2023-10-27T16:13:00 < mawk> he starts next week
2023-10-27T16:15:34 < Steffanx> and when does he fire you?
2023-10-27T16:15:47 < Steffanx> "He already did".
2023-10-27T16:16:49 < mawk> he's not the one who fired me
2023-10-27T16:16:55 < mawk> he was gone
2023-10-27T16:17:06 < mawk> he's a nice guy
2023-10-27T16:17:24 < mawk> he's the only one who tried to get me a new job when they fired me
2023-10-27T16:18:07 < mawk> if you do it twice doesn't it go into a corner karlp ?
2023-10-27T16:18:09 < mawk> maybe not on lunix
2023-10-27T16:18:45 < mawk> what do you use for unit-testing C code
2023-10-27T16:18:52 < mawk> I use a customized version of cmock/unity
2023-10-27T16:18:56 < mawk> it works really well
2023-10-27T16:19:12 < mawk> I customized it to allow to test even static variables/functions
2023-10-27T16:19:24 < mawk> so no dependency injection or other bullshit where you have to change the code to conform to the test
2023-10-27T16:19:34 < mawk> you just #include "yourcode.c" and test everything in it
2023-10-27T16:19:41 < mawk> and mock every function call made to functions outside yourcode.c
2023-10-27T16:21:01 < mawk> for instnce: https://paste.serveur.io/7nOQg6r6.c
2023-10-27T16:23:32 < jpa-> i've mostly just used super simple custom stuff like  https://github.com/nanopb/nanopb/blob/master/tests/common/unittests.h   though last time i used platformio's unity stuff  https://github.com/PetteriAimonen/directional-pedal-assist-sensor/blob/main/test/test_basics/gear_sensor_unittest.c   and it was fine too
2023-10-27T16:24:00 < jpa-> i do hate how platformio makes it hard to test modules from the main src directory, it doesn't make sense to force everything into a separate library just to be able to test it
2023-10-27T16:24:56 < karlp> mawk: nah, once goes to side, second time restores back again.
2023-10-27T16:25:35 < mawk> ah jpa- so they use unity
2023-10-27T16:25:37 < mawk> but still no mocking
2023-10-27T16:25:45 < jpa-> my left/right shortcuts have been broken for years now, i should probably figure out how to fix it
2023-10-27T16:25:50 < mawk> so all your functions are ideally without side effects
2023-10-27T16:25:54 < karlp> ok, jlink pro time....
2023-10-27T16:25:57 < mawk> or with dependency injection
2023-10-27T16:26:53 < jpa-> mawk: yeah, either i avoid static stuff or have a reset function
2023-10-27T16:27:38 < mawk> they were trying to use googletest here before
2023-10-27T16:27:41 < mawk> but it just doesn't work for C code
2023-10-27T16:27:59 < mawk> so I stole the custom cmock I made on previous company's time to use it here
2023-10-27T16:29:41 < mawk> I probably can share it
2023-10-27T16:33:09 < mawk> it works very well to mock HAL also
2023-10-27T16:33:13 < mawk> or your lib of choice
2023-10-27T16:33:24 < mawk> only with a tiny amount of kludge because of cyclic imports they like to do
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2023-10-27T16:35:27 < mawk> https://serveur.io/test-example.tar.gz
2023-10-27T16:35:38 < mawk> you need to recursively clone the cmock repository in the same directory as the Makefilew
2023-10-27T16:35:41 < mawk> and that's it
2023-10-27T16:35:52 < mawk> and you can use both cmock and unity functions in your tests
2023-10-27T16:36:06 < mawk> you need ruby installed
2023-10-27T16:36:12 < mawk> and for the coverage testing you need gcov and gcovr
2023-10-27T16:36:25 < mawk> install gcovr using pipx to get the latest version with the nice HTML coverage report
2023-10-27T16:36:58 < mawk> gcov is distributed with gcc normally
2023-10-27T16:37:31 < mawk> this is using 64-bit memory model so make sure you use exact integer sizes and always uintptr_t instead of uint32_t for pointer types casted to integer
2023-10-27T16:37:41 < mawk> or use the 32-bit memory model, add something like -m32 in the CFLAGS
2023-10-27T16:38:12 < mawk> you will need the x86 multilib libc and stuff for that
2023-10-27T16:49:19 < karlp> https://extensions.gnome.org/extension/39/put-windows/ and then super with the numpad diagonal works nicely :)
2023-10-27T16:53:50 < ventYl> mawk: can I save it?
2023-10-27T16:56:53 < Steffanx> Its already saved
2023-10-27T17:02:03 < ventYl> nah that's just a script in simplified chineese
2023-10-27T17:04:56 < mawk> yes ventYl 
2023-10-27T17:05:21 < ventYl> automated mock generator could be useful
2023-10-27T17:05:42 < mawk> that's what it is
2023-10-27T17:05:52 < ventYl> I had that in $automotive_company, but there we used XMLs to describe the API of code, so it was rather trivial XML parser which puked C code
2023-10-27T17:05:58 < mawk> I also made the script test.sh which allows to run unit tests quickly even on WSL
2023-10-27T17:06:16 < mawk> because the filesystem is excruciatingly slow on WSL so unit tests take like 5 minutes
2023-10-27T17:06:22 < mawk> instead of 15s on native lunix
2023-10-27T17:06:38 < mawk> so I made a script to rsync the files to a native directory to run the tests
2023-10-27T17:06:41 < mawk> normally fully transparent
2023-10-27T17:07:00 < mawk> but you can do ./test.sh clean to clean the rsync'd tree
2023-10-27T17:07:36 < mawk> you don't have to specify anything about the mocked functions ventYl , it parses the C code by itself
2023-10-27T17:08:01 < mawk> like if you have calls to HAL_GPIO_WritePin then in the unit test you simply do HAL_GPIO_WritePin_ExpectAndReturn(12, 42); and it will expect a callt o it
2023-10-27T17:08:04 < mawk> and return 42 from the call
2023-10-27T17:13:42 < mawk> https://github.com/ThrowTheSwitch/CMock/blob/master/docs/CMock_Summary.md
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2023-10-27T17:43:15 < ventYl> thanks, I'll look into it
2023-10-27T17:43:31 < ventYl> I try to write some tests now for the creepy RTOS
2023-10-27T17:43:39 < ventYl> because it falls apart under my hands if I touch it
2023-10-27T18:08:27 < karlp> unity tests look like "check" which I've used in the past as well, works fine... https://libcheck.github.io/check/
2023-10-27T18:09:13 < karlp> lol,intalling ruby in 2023...
2023-10-27T18:17:21 < jbo> going full coprorate mode?
2023-10-27T18:34:16 < Steffanx> Mawk's testing framework needs it..
2023-10-27T18:48:12 < karlp> I'm not...
2023-10-27T18:50:51 < ventYl> karlp: all these frameworks have stupid names. here the more simple means the more vague. we are using Check at our project, but it is different Check and it is C++-only
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2023-10-27T19:02:34 < karlp> yeah, th ename is pretty bad...
2023-10-27T19:03:50 < zyp> reminds me of that time I pulled up an old project I did and tried to figure out which of the three different «pyhidapi» projects I had used for it
2023-10-27T19:04:17 < zyp> turned out it was neither of them, I had made my own hidapi bindings that I forgot to publish
2023-10-27T19:04:34 < mawk> unity is just for the assertions
2023-10-27T19:04:41 < mawk> the interesting part is cmock for mocking c code
2023-10-27T19:04:47 < mawk> and automatically 
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2023-10-27T19:44:16 < qyx> zyp: 4? :>
2023-10-27T19:46:17 < zyp> something like that
2023-10-27T19:47:07 < qyx> do you know the joke, two russians talking "hey, how many?", "4", "4 of what?", "how many of what?"
2023-10-27T19:47:44 < Steffanx> lolwut?
2023-10-27T19:49:05 < qyx> I asked him what's the width of his cards and he ignored me :(
2023-10-27T19:52:18 < jpa-> you don't ask a woman their age nor a man the width of their card
2023-10-27T19:52:57 < karlp> fucking current arm-gcc looks for python3.8 explicitly?!
2023-10-27T19:53:23 < jpa-> why arm-gcc does look for python? i understand gdb does
2023-10-27T19:53:42 < jpa-> but everyone uses distro's gdb-multiarch nowadays so it is not an issue
2023-10-27T20:01:25 < qyx> yes it does
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2023-10-27T20:47:59 < mawk> gdb can look for python but it's not mandatory 
2023-10-27T20:52:43 < qyx> what is not mandatory
2023-10-27T20:53:01 < qyx> try to run arm gdb from the official binary packages from arm.com and it fails instantly
2023-10-27T20:53:15 < qyx> because it cannot find the right python
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2023-10-27T21:22:35 < WernherVonData> Hi, started some time ago learning C - was doing excercise about UART and software flow control. Looking for some feedback about what can I improve - apart from using interrupts to check for XON and XOFF (this stuff I must learn proper first). Sorry if I used wrong channel.
2023-10-27T21:22:52 < WernherVonData> https://pastebin.com/KCMASQKV
2023-10-27T21:39:08 < ventYl> you didn't used the wrong channel. you used it wrong
2023-10-27T21:39:49 < WernherVonData> So how to ask for feeback properly?
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2023-10-27T22:05:50 < PaulFertser> WernherVonData: probably you can ask your question, about something that you're unsure.
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2023-10-27T22:08:58 < WernherVonData> So to be honest just wondering - when I send XOFF many times in a row - the program hangs - is it due to reading the information in a blocking mode? And can it be somehow fixed without interrupts?
2023-10-27T22:11:00 < qyx> I wonder what is line 23
2023-10-27T22:15:04 < qyx> WernherVonData: I don't remember if it is the case with F0, but there is a overflow flag which is being set if you haven't read the data register before the next symbol arrives
2023-10-27T22:15:19 < qyx> which may happen with your 500 ms delay
2023-10-27T22:16:07 < qyx> also, I am not sure if it does anything when interrupts disabled, but when interrupts are enabled and RXNE interrupt is enabled, it automatically enables the overflow interrupt
2023-10-27T22:16:13 < qyx> and you must handle it (been there)
2023-10-27T22:16:20 < qyx> (by clearing OVRF)
2023-10-27T22:18:22 < qyx> and I am not following your send loop logic
2023-10-27T22:18:35 < WernherVonData> qyx The source of this is the "Bare Metal C" book - it's one of the excercises regarding serial output  - line 23 was just preserve the value and written by the author (but I see now it should be &)
2023-10-27T22:19:01 < qyx> are you expecting to receive XON before sending every char?
2023-10-27T22:20:31 < WernherVonData> I was trying to not send anything while the XOFF is send
2023-10-27T22:20:44 < qyx> yes but obviously the line is redundant, have you stackoverflow'd the __attribute__((unused)) part when the compiler told you "result is unused"?
2023-10-27T22:23:32 < WernherVonData> No, no - this is what left from the orignal code written by the author - doint the excercise on top of basic communication he wrote - he left that this way for debugging if someone would like to see this value more stable if someone would like to stop and see what is there
2023-10-27T22:25:14 < qyx> if you send XOFF, it stops sending, waits 500 ms and then does whatever UART_Receive does - most probably blocks
2023-10-27T22:25:22 < qyx> so to unblock it you have to send XON again
2023-10-27T22:25:37 < WernherVonData> yes
2023-10-27T22:25:39 < qyx> that's ok
2023-10-27T22:26:01 < qyx> so you send another char and then become stuck in the HAL_UART_Receive again
2023-10-27T22:26:18 < qyx> (I don't know what does the function do, I have never used it)
2023-10-27T22:26:34 < qyx> sounds like it blocks forever
2023-10-27T22:26:39 < WernherVonData> But when I send XOFF many times in a row - it's blocking completely and sending XON does nothing
2023-10-27T22:26:44 < WernherVonData> yes
2023-10-27T22:26:44 < qyx> so you have to send another XON
2023-10-27T22:27:18 < qyx> what does "in a row" mean?
2023-10-27T22:27:30 < qyx> if you send 5 times 1 second apart, does it blockM
2023-10-27T22:29:14 < WernherVonData> hmmm, didn't check that this way - rather was spamming as angry kid when his Fortnite freezes  
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2023-10-27T22:31:14 < qyx> so, F0 has the overrun error functionality
2023-10-27T22:32:05 < qyx> USART_CR3 has the OVRDIS bit which is 0 by default
2023-10-27T22:32:11 < qyx> which means overflow detection is not disabled
2023-10-27T22:32:36 < qyx> when you check the interrupt and status register (USART_ISR), bit ORE
2023-10-27T22:33:37 < qyx> the description says when an overrun is detected (char received while RXNE is still 1), that is if a new character is received but you haven't processed the previous one, the ORE bit it set
2023-10-27T22:34:27 < qyx> and it also says when it it set (and until you clear it), new characters are ignored and not transferred to the data register
2023-10-27T22:34:30 < qyx> but hm
2023-10-27T22:36:23 < qyx> trash that theory
2023-10-27T22:36:54 < qyx> for two reasons, I can't match that logic with the code
2023-10-27T22:37:07 < qyx> and 2. what's the last parameter of the UART receive function?
2023-10-27T22:37:41 < WernherVonData> For the one I'm using? Timeout
2023-10-27T22:37:58 < qyx> so it doesn't block forever
2023-10-27T22:38:32 < qyx> what does it do when no character is received within 100 ms?
2023-10-27T22:38:48 < qyx> or 100 furlongs or whatever
2023-10-27T22:38:53 < WernherVonData> the function itself returns HAL_StatusTypeDef
2023-10-27T22:39:03 < WernherVonData> Which I was not using at any place
2023-10-27T22:39:08 < WernherVonData> Maybe I should
2023-10-27T22:39:42 < qyx> you are not even clearing read_value beforehand
2023-10-27T22:40:32 < qyx> also it is a global..
2023-10-27T22:46:35 < WernherVonData> qyx: thanks I got to go, it cleared my vision a little and I learned something useful
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2023-10-27T22:50:21 < qyx> that's good because I was telling bullshit
2023-10-27T22:50:39 < qyx> *despite
2023-10-27T23:27:17 < octorian> Phew... that was a pain.  I finally got off my ass and implemented a sufficiently complete-and-functional CMake-based build process for one of my projects.  Been leaning on Eclipse managed builds (as provided by STM32CubeIDE) for far too long.
--- Day changed la loka 28 2023
2023-10-28T00:40:21 < octorian> Okay, this is interesting....  If I compile with the version of GCC 11.3.1 from STM32CubeIDE, my resulting binary is ~14KB smaller than if I compile it with ARM gcc 12.3.1 (latest official one from ARM).
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2023-10-28T01:40:42 < karlp> karlp: yes, I mistyped arm-gcc when I meant arm-gdb.
2023-10-28T01:50:32 < qyx> qyx: that's fine
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2023-10-28T03:22:36 < jbo> qyx no longer likes supporting Ukraine :o
2023-10-28T03:25:21 < qyx> the theory behind it is probably complicated, I would say kallas is about right
2023-10-28T03:26:32 < qyx> our "new" pm communicates this only on his facebook and not official channels so I guess it is only to feed his sheep
2023-10-28T03:29:01 < qyx> and wrt. supporting .ua with weapons, we gave them all we had, so in this regard the pm is right, we will not because there is nothing left
2023-10-28T03:30:55 < qyx> iirc we have zero jets as of now
2023-10-28T03:33:20 < qyx> yeah
2023-10-28T03:35:18 < jbo> did you just quickly go and count them? :D
2023-10-28T03:36:05 < qyx> checked tghe list
2023-10-28T03:36:14 < qyx> we only have 9 blackhawks and some mi25
2023-10-28T03:36:43 < qyx> sorry mi17
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2023-10-28T10:21:32 < ventYl> the question is what happens with ammunition and machines made under contracts
2023-10-28T10:22:54 < ventYl> but yeah, he is a liar
2023-10-28T10:54:48 < Steffanx> Apparently "you guys" like liars 
2023-10-28T10:59:31 < BrainDamage> everyone does, see chatgpt
2023-10-28T11:02:51 < Steffanx> It's great to generate some random fiction
2023-10-28T11:03:17 < BrainDamage> automating politics
2023-10-28T11:15:14 < ventYl> Steffanx: I am not going to doubt that statement in the scope of the whole country
2023-10-28T11:15:30 < ventYl> apparently we love far worse things than just liars
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2023-10-28T12:35:04 < qyx> ventYl: I guess our deminer skidsteers are not considered weapons but humanitarian aid :>
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2023-10-28T12:38:36 < qyx> and it probably doesn't count private contracts, why should it? and doing business != supporting, so in fact, much idk
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2023-10-28T12:40:18 < qyx> as I said, it is starting to look like he just feeds the audience and does the other thing in the end, which would be a great win for the stupid us
2023-10-28T12:43:36 < qyx> but now I just got an ad for an article how to correctly prepare a schnitzel
2023-10-28T12:43:59 < qyx> so I'll better close the interwebs and go work instead
2023-10-28T12:45:51 < Steffanx> Or just prepare that schnitzel.
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2023-10-28T18:38:32 < qyx> no innovation today
2023-10-28T18:38:39  * qyx soldering cables
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2023-10-28T19:07:25 < mawk> do puzzles qyx
2023-10-28T19:07:31 < mawk> if you're not innovating 
2023-10-28T19:07:34 < mawk> I have a ton of them
2023-10-28T19:07:41 < mawk> from highschool level to maths PhD level
2023-10-28T19:07:48 < mawk> choose a number between 1 and 100
2023-10-28T19:07:58 < mawk> closer to 1 will be easier
2023-10-28T19:14:37 < qyx> 1?
2023-10-28T19:15:13 < zyp> 42
2023-10-28T19:18:30 < qyx> aiming high
2023-10-28T19:29:46 < jpa-> zyp: heh, finally figured out the STM32 VDD rise rate issue; turns out it was because i have separate regulator for VDDA, and it has different power-up behavior  https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/stm32_vdd_powerup.png
2023-10-28T19:32:38 < zyp> wat, why didn't you mention you had a separate VDDA?
2023-10-28T19:33:31 < zyp> IIRC some chips (probably this) only monitor VDDA for POR/BOR, and so will release reset too early if VDD is slower than VDDA
2023-10-28T19:34:21 < jpa-> yeah, i somehow didn't remember it matters so much
2023-10-28T19:34:35 < zyp> on newer chips I don't think it does
2023-10-28T19:34:42 < jpa-> it's not the first time i have fallen into thinking "VDDA only matters for ADC"
2023-10-28T19:34:53 < zyp> on older I think it's stated explicitly that they should be supplied from the same source
2023-10-28T19:35:05 < zyp> what was this again? f429?
2023-10-28T19:35:09 < jpa-> F407
2023-10-28T19:39:08 < Ecco> oh, that's interesting :)
2023-10-28T19:39:10 < zyp> https://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/stm32f407vg.pdf 2.2.14 states «VDDA and VSSA must be connected to VDD and VSS, respectively.»
2023-10-28T19:39:12 < Ecco> Good to know :)
2023-10-28T19:39:47 < Ecco> In Altium, is it possible for a variant to completely remove a part from the PCB? I don't even want the footprint
2023-10-28T19:40:01 < Ecco> For example, I'd like a "production" and "debug" variant
2023-10-28T19:40:06 < Ecco> where debug has a JTAG connector
2023-10-28T19:40:09 < zyp> that's not what variants do
2023-10-28T19:40:22 < jpa-> this is probably what caused my VDD fall time issues back in 2013 also.. oh well, only took a decade to get to the bottom of it
2023-10-28T19:40:23 < zyp> variants are BOM variations
2023-10-28T19:40:46 < Ecco> Yeah, I'm kind of figuring that out
2023-10-28T19:40:59 < Ecco> so what would be the "right" way to achieve what I'm trying to do?
2023-10-28T19:42:13 < zyp> the right way? not doing it, probably
2023-10-28T19:42:15 < jpa-> why do you even want to remove the footprint?
2023-10-28T19:43:08 < Ecco> because it takes board space
2023-10-28T19:43:18 < jpa-> zyp: so.. do you think i should just flat out connect VDD and VDDA, or is there any sense putting ferrite + capacitor for VDDA? i do care about ADC noise, but on the other hand it is just 12 bit ADC
2023-10-28T19:43:37 < zyp> Ecco, what are you gonna use the saved board space for?
2023-10-28T19:43:56 < Ecco> nothing. The device just doesn't have enough room
2023-10-28T19:44:06 < jpa-> so you will change the board outline?
2023-10-28T19:44:09 < Ecco> Yes
2023-10-28T19:44:14 < Ecco> the output is a totally different PCB
2023-10-28T19:44:18 < zyp> sounds like a design revision to me
2023-10-28T19:44:26 < Ecco> In a way, yeah
2023-10-28T19:44:39 < Ecco> It could nearly be two different projects
2023-10-28T19:44:41 < jpa-> you could make it a snap-off part of the PCB
2023-10-28T19:44:50 < jpa-> or just use a smaller debug connector :)
2023-10-28T19:44:51 < Ecco> ha that's fun
2023-10-28T19:45:05 < Ecco> For example, the thing I'm building is battery powered
2023-10-28T19:45:07 < zyp> having a snap off part on every production pcb is wasteful though
2023-10-28T19:45:30 < Ecco> but when working, I'm putting an LDO with a series resistor to mimic the battery's behavior
2023-10-28T19:45:36 < Ecco> it's not a 1:1 behavior, but it's close enough
2023-10-28T19:45:47 < Ecco> and the "debug" board also has a battery connector
2023-10-28T19:45:55 < Ecco> with a jumper to select the "fake" battery or the real one
2023-10-28T19:46:20 < Ecco> I guess what I'm trying to do is kind of like this
2023-10-28T19:46:20 < Ecco> https://cdn.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/PCDD.jpg
2023-10-28T19:46:22 < zyp> sounds overengineered
2023-10-28T19:46:31 < Ecco> zyp: most likely is indeed
2023-10-28T19:46:34 < zyp> normal people just solder in a couple of wires in place of the battery socket
2023-10-28T19:46:41 < jpa-> how will you program the production boards?
2023-10-28T19:46:51 < Ecco> jpa-: good point, I don't know yet
2023-10-28T19:47:00 < zyp> test jig?
2023-10-28T19:47:05 < Ecco> most likely indeed
2023-10-28T19:47:13 < Ecco> well, yeah, I'll *need* tespoints that's for sure
2023-10-28T19:47:18 < mawk> qyx a lazy blacksmith wants to make a chain of 15 links, using 5 smaller chains of 3 links each. he can open and close links as much as he wants. how can he make the chain using a minimal amount of link opening?
2023-10-28T19:47:21 < jpa-> then you could just put the SWD and SWC pins on testpoints and use the test jig for development
2023-10-28T19:47:26 < mawk> here's the picture for reference: https://i.imgur.com/rnEn3Eq.jpeg
2023-10-28T19:47:34 < mawk> I translated it just for you
2023-10-28T19:48:04 < Ecco> makes sense :)
2023-10-28T19:48:10 < jpa-> mawk: he'll open 1 link, at night, on the lock chain of the nearest hardware store
2023-10-28T19:48:20 < zyp> mawk, is that a trick question?
2023-10-28T19:48:27 < mawk> lol jpa- 
2023-10-28T19:48:38 < mawk> no zyp there's no dirty trick
2023-10-28T19:48:45 < mawk> it's the easiest problem of the book
2023-10-28T19:48:50 < mawk> which qyx requested
2023-10-28T19:49:04 < zyp> then the answer is 4, and how is too obvious to bother with
2023-10-28T19:49:15 < jpa-> i would say 3
2023-10-28T19:49:15 < mawk> one possible answer is 4
2023-10-28T19:49:21 < mawk> but smaller is possible 
2023-10-28T19:49:37 < mawk> yes jpa- it's 3
2023-10-28T19:50:19 < jpa-> also only 1 annoying opening and 2 easy onew
2023-10-28T19:50:20 < mawk> if you open a link of 4 smaller chains then you can link them all together, but you can do better than that
2023-10-28T19:51:18 < mawk> imagine if you had a bunch of open individual links, you could take two unopened chains and link them together 
2023-10-28T19:52:43 < zyp> I don't get it
2023-10-28T19:53:40 < jpa-> it's easy
2023-10-28T19:53:55 < zyp> oh, wait, now I do
2023-10-28T19:56:50 < mawk> zyp https://i.imgur.com/CqabmOZ.jpeg
2023-10-28T19:56:59 < mawk> laïke zisse
2023-10-28T19:57:11 < zyp> yeah, I got it
2023-10-28T19:58:10 < qyx> jpa-: oh lol yeah "oh I did *forget* to connect VDDA, but it doesn't matter, no ADC here, just send it to pcb house"
2023-10-28T19:58:30 < zyp> I was thinking joining five segments needs at least four joints, but you're only joining four segments, needing three, turning the fifth into the joints
2023-10-28T19:58:45 < qyx> two weeks later "why there is no SWD, it must be badly soldered.."
2023-10-28T19:58:57 < mawk> yeah
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2023-10-28T20:00:40 < jpa-> funnily i have a new PCB that would repeat that 10 year old mistake of mine, but because of aisler order system bugging out i couldn't order it yesterday
2023-10-28T20:02:16 < qyx> lol mawk yeah I was wondering at first then I got this idea and it worked
2023-10-28T20:02:42 < qyx> that's why interdisciplinary knowledge is important
2023-10-28T20:04:36 < qyx> and that's why I was reading a 70 page long document talking about corrosion protection of steel structures and sneak currents
2023-10-28T20:04:43 < qyx> .. the other day
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2023-10-28T20:06:21 < qyx> is it really called a sneak current
2023-10-28T20:07:37 < qyx> eddy current is probably more appropriate in this case
2023-10-28T20:28:02 < BrainDamage> if it's large stee structures, it's likely not eddy currents but electrochemical currents
2023-10-28T20:28:19 < BrainDamage> the whole thing forming a battery and corroding
2023-10-28T20:29:30 < BrainDamage> a single droplet of water technically forms a battery on its own with oxygen of the air
2023-10-28T20:32:53 < qyx> yes that too, mainly for the foundation, but for eg. railway bridges they are induced
2023-10-28T20:33:49 < qyx> s/are/can be/
2023-10-28T20:34:48 < qyx> mawk: and what was the riddle on page 42?
2023-10-28T20:52:26 < qyx> calling the cat to give her some food, she came with a mouse leaving it halfway
2023-10-28T20:52:50 < qyx> I am telling her watch the mouse, she turned back and saw the mouse running away
2023-10-28T20:53:05 < qyx> 2 seconds and the mouse was catched again
2023-10-28T20:53:46 < qyx> those trained garden cats
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2023-10-28T21:53:19 < jerkey> oops Ecco i lost any replies you may have said to the other ecco, my scrollback is too short
2023-10-28T21:56:37 < Steffanx> jerkey is ecco too?
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2023-10-28T22:59:51 < mawk> I'll check in the book qyx
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2023-10-28T23:17:04 < mawk> question 42 is about Hilbert's hotel qyx
2023-10-28T23:17:44 < mawk> there is a hotel with an infinity of rooms numbered 1, 2, 3, … ; and the hotel is full. a new client arrives and asks for a room, how to find him a room?
2023-10-28T23:17:54 < Steffanx> Question 42: Mawk has a cat and 1kg of cat food. Each day the cat eats his 50 gram of his food. Every other day the cat secretly eats 100 gram. Each other time this happens the cat has to puke and mawk has to clean it up. When this happens mawk is sorry for the cat and feeds here another 25 gram of food. When will mawk run out of food for the cat and how much is lost?
2023-10-28T23:18:26 < mawk> and secondly: an infinity of new clients come and ask for a room, there's new client 1, new client 2, …; how to find a room for all of them?
2023-10-28T23:18:30 < Steffanx> *her
2023-10-28T23:18:31 < mawk> that's question 42
2023-10-28T23:19:02 < zyp> I like Steffanx' problem better
2023-10-28T23:19:09 < mawk> lol
2023-10-28T23:19:17 < mawk> mine is very famous 
2023-10-28T23:19:36 < mawk> zven veritasium guy made a video on it
2023-10-28T23:22:09 < Steffanx> i remember seeing this video, but dont remember the "solution"
2023-10-28T23:23:28 < mawk> the solution is quite obvious 
2023-10-28T23:23:31 < mawk> at least for the first one
2023-10-28T23:23:47 < mawk> let's say you want to put the new client in the first room
2023-10-28T23:23:49 < mawk> what do you so
2023-10-28T23:23:51 < mawk> do*
2023-10-28T23:26:55 < Steffanx> Kick out the first guest and put in the new one.
2023-10-28T23:27:13 < Steffanx> -first
2023-10-28T23:27:20 < mawk> where does the first client go there
2023-10-28T23:27:25 < mawk> why not ask him to move to room 2?
2023-10-28T23:27:25 < Steffanx> Home. Holiday is over.
2023-10-28T23:27:37 < zyp> you move every guest to a room twice the original room number, which frees up another infinity of rooms
2023-10-28T23:27:46 < mawk> yeah
2023-10-28T23:27:52 < mawk> for the second part
2023-10-28T23:28:02 < jpa-> can i do that with my project boxes?
2023-10-28T23:28:11 < zyp> if you have an infinite number of them
2023-10-28T23:28:15 < mawk> for the first part you move client n to room n+1 and that frees room 1 for the new guy
2023-10-28T23:28:22 < jpa-> i certainly do, but they are all full
2023-10-28T23:28:51 < zyp> mawk, if you're gonna move everybody anyway, might as well solve both problems the same way
2023-10-28T23:28:57 < mawk> yah
2023-10-28T23:29:18 < mawk> having the hotel full at all times is nice tho
2023-10-28T23:29:29 < mawk> it's what shows how ∞+1 = ∞
2023-10-28T23:29:35 < mawk> or ∞+∞ = ,∞
2023-10-28T23:29:42 < Steffanx> Imagine all the infinite bad reviews because "i suddenly had to move to another room" vs 1 bad review "i was kicked out". 
2023-10-28T23:30:02 < mawk> or, showing that N + {1} is in bijection with N, and how N+N is in bijection with N too
2023-10-28T23:30:16 < jpa-> also who wants to move to a room that has already been used?
2023-10-28T23:30:34 < mawk> dirty sheets fetishists 
2023-10-28T23:30:35 < Steffanx> The hotel has an infinite number of cleaning ladies i guess?
2023-10-28T23:30:50 < mawk> or just 1
2023-10-28T23:31:10 < mawk> she cleans the room 1 in 30 minutes, room 2 in 15 minutes, room 3 in 7.5 minutes, and so on
2023-10-28T23:31:17 < mawk> and she just takes 1h total for the whole hotel 
2023-10-28T23:31:37 < zyp> anyway, this is bullshit, got any interesting problems instead?
2023-10-28T23:32:04 < Steffanx> Israel vs Gaza. How do we get to stop this shit?
2023-10-28T23:32:54 < jpa-> start dutch vs. belgium war and we'll forget about israel
2023-10-28T23:33:20 < mawk> Damien has a cup of coffee and a cup of milk, each 200mL. he puts a spoon (5mL) of coffee in the milk mug, stirs, then put a spoon of the mix back in the coffee mug
2023-10-28T23:33:35 < mawk> after the operation, is there more milk in the coffee or more coffee in the milk?
2023-10-28T23:33:41 < Steffanx> Déjà vu
2023-10-28T23:33:55 < mawk> and if he repeats the operation many times, is it possible to obtain a cup containing as much coffee as milk?
2023-10-28T23:34:17 < Steffanx> So when will you run out of cat food mawk ?
2023-10-28T23:34:18 < zyp> jpa-, what sort of ADC resolution do I reasonably need for motor control current feedback?
2023-10-28T23:34:46 < qyx> Steffanx: meh, there is probably no way unless one of them ceases to exists
2023-10-28T23:35:12 < qyx> I heard that erdogan is being dumb again too
2023-10-28T23:35:38 < qyx> nah I never quite imagined I will live in a such world
2023-10-28T23:36:11 < jpa-> zyp: 7 or 8 bits effective of the torque current should be fine; but you probably want higher ADC resolution so that you can run smoothly at lower torques
2023-10-28T23:37:53 < jpa-> at lowest torques putting some rotor-aligned current reduces the sensitivity to ADC noise and makes things otherwise more stable also
2023-10-28T23:37:59 < jpa-> i've been fine with 12 bit ADC
2023-10-28T23:39:16 < zyp> yeah, the ADC on this trenz PMOD is also 12-bit, but full range is like ±15A or something
2023-10-28T23:40:09 < zyp> IIRC I've been testing at around ±200 counts
2023-10-28T23:41:28 < zyp> asking because I'm procrastinating bringing DTC up on the fanuc controller by thinking about making a better alternative to the trenz PMOD instead
2023-10-28T23:44:51 < mawk> at the 8th day Steffanx 
2023-10-28T23:45:08 < mawk> there's not enough cat food to continue for the 9th day
2023-10-28T23:45:44 < mawk> and 450g is lost because of the evil cat
2023-10-28T23:46:20 < mawk> or 400g if we don't count the 25g for the cat's vomit
2023-10-28T23:46:42 < mawk> the current day n starts from 0 as n = 0, n = 1, …
2023-10-28T23:46:57 < mawk> and if n = 0 mod 4 or n = 2 mod 4, we give 50g to the pussy
2023-10-28T23:48:02 < mawk> if n = 1 mod 4 he receives 150g, and if n = 3 mod 4 he receives 175g
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2023-10-28T23:59:45 < nomorekaki> early
2023-10-28T23:59:56 < zyp> qyx, if I want something like a 1U subrack with four horizontal plug in boards, are there anything standard that's suitable?
--- Day changed su loka 29 2023
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2023-10-29T00:02:28 < Steffanx> here have a video to make it a more fun day nomorekaki: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLOPygVcaVE
2023-10-29T00:02:53 < nomorekaki> Steffanx: some finnish schlagermusiks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axLNnHefBsE
2023-10-29T00:03:01 < qyx> zyp: iirc with four, I have seen cases for that but I don't think this arrangement is standardised
2023-10-29T00:03:05 < qyx> sorry, with three
2023-10-29T00:03:16 < nomorekaki> "like stray dogs we roamed the land"
2023-10-29T00:03:19 < qyx> nvent catalog nothing?
2023-10-29T00:05:03 < zyp> qyx, looking at multipacpro now, looks like it can mount one 3U plus one 6U card horizontally
2023-10-29T00:05:13 < zyp> ref. page 12: https://schroff.nvent.com/sites/g/files/hdkjer281/files/acquiadam_assets/2022-12/6_3_schroff_cat_multipacpro_en.pdf?asset_type=Catalog
2023-10-29T00:06:13 < zyp> «Sufficient for one 3 U board or one 6 U board»
2023-10-29T00:06:17 < qyx> so i guess that replacing 6U with two 3Us is only a matter of exchanging the center rail bit
2023-10-29T00:06:55 < zyp> yeah, probably, with the right bits that should give me three slots of 3U, 6HP each
2023-10-29T00:07:31 < qyx> I would just get side extrusions for 1U and get two plates lasered, top and bottom
2023-10-29T00:07:47 < qyx> and then cut the rails in 40mm pieces and mount from bottom/top
2023-10-29T00:08:02 < zyp> if I can fit stuff in 3HP, I can stack two cards above each other
2023-10-29T00:08:29 < qyx> that was my question from the distant past!
2023-10-29T00:08:52 < qyx> fuk 3HP
2023-10-29T00:09:30 < qyx> it narrows the selection of connectors considerably and I decided I don't want PCI-anymore
2023-10-29T00:09:55 < zyp> hmm, 3HP quickly gets too tall to fit RJ45 sockets unless I get some mid-mount ones
2023-10-29T00:10:01 < zyp> too low, I mean
2023-10-29T00:10:30 < qyx> I spent 2 WHOLE DAYS until I found a fitting RJ45
2023-10-29T00:10:51 < qyx> it is too low for anything
2023-10-29T00:11:11 < zyp> seems plenty for the testrack stuff I've got though
2023-10-29T00:11:23 < qyx> even for caps for higher voltages, foil are 10-11 mm, hybrid alus are 12 mm minimum
2023-10-29T00:11:32 < qyx> and you only have about 10 mm with 3HP
2023-10-29T00:12:06 < zyp> I'm planning to go down to 3HP for the module carriers next time I spin a backplane, so I can fit 8 plus controller in 28HP
2023-10-29T00:12:16 < zyp> but those don't have any external connectors
2023-10-29T00:12:20 < qyx> I am moving away from 3HP/2U to 4HP/3U
2023-10-29T00:12:34 < qyx> but keeping 70 mm depth
2023-10-29T00:14:14 < zyp> so, what I have in mind for 1U is kinda an ethernet switch with 16 ports in 4x4 groups, with four exchangeable line cards
2023-10-29T00:15:26 < qyx> what for
2023-10-29T00:15:47 < zyp> not really gonna make a switch, but I want to put this m.2 FPGA module shit to some use
2023-10-29T00:16:39 < zyp> it doesn't have a lot of IO apart from the four SERDES lanes on the m.2 edge, so I figure I'll split them to a slot each, run QSGMII to a quad ethernet phy
2023-10-29T00:18:04 < zyp> modular partly so I can e.g. pull one module and put in some SoC with PCIe instead, or put in line cards for different shit like SPE
2023-10-29T00:19:05 < zyp> I don't really have any use for FPGA in an actual m.2 slot, but I'd like a FPGA with a bunch of ethernet ports
2023-10-29T00:22:27 < zyp> for hooking up to the industrial ethernet shit I'm doing, can act both as a tee/hub, tap that gives me a way to monitor traffic on a spare port or a sync/async mux/router
2023-10-29T00:25:11 < mawk> zyp you have 27 identical coins, but you know one is fake and is lighter than the others. you have a Roberval scale ⚖️ (aka tipping scale) with no graduations, what's the minimal number of weighings needed to determine which is the fake coin?
2023-10-29T00:26:19 < mawk> and little twist, what happens if you don't know if the coin is lighter or heavier? how many weighings then?
2023-10-29T00:28:23 < zyp> 3 in the first case, 4 in the second
2023-10-29T00:29:27 < zyp> split the 27 coins in three groups of 9, weigh two of them, fake coin is in the lighter group (or the third if equal)
2023-10-29T00:29:40 < zyp> that leaves you with 9, then 3 and 1 after two more weighings
2023-10-29T00:30:21 < zyp> if you don't know whether it's lighter or heavier, you do a second weighing after the first comparing all three groups of 9 to determine if one is heavier or lighter than the other two
2023-10-29T00:49:16 < zyp> what, did I solve it so fast that you're speechless?
2023-10-29T00:59:51 < Ecco> jerkey: what?
2023-10-29T01:00:04 < Ecco> I don't remember talking with you :)
2023-10-29T01:02:05 < Ecco> So, I have a question regarding piezo buzzers
2023-10-29T01:02:11 < Ecco> Here's a diagram by Kyocera
2023-10-29T01:02:11 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/C1cuvmB.png
2023-10-29T01:02:26 < Ecco> My understanding is that a piezo buzzer is roughly a capacitor
2023-10-29T01:02:41 < Ecco> so if you put it in an RLC circuit, it's going to be super efficient
2023-10-29T01:02:55 < Ecco> because essentially you bounce energy between the L and the C(piezo)
2023-10-29T01:03:03 < Ecco> compared to driving the Piezo with a GPIO
2023-10-29T01:03:16 < Ecco> where you'd put energy in the piezo, and then just "empty" it into GND
2023-10-29T01:03:31 < Ecco> first question: is my understanding correct?
2023-10-29T01:03:56 < Ecco> second question: if so, do I have to be at the circuit's resonant frequency for it to be optimal? IOW, how do I pick the inductor's value?
2023-10-29T01:15:02 < mawk> yes zyp very good
2023-10-29T01:17:54 < mawk> and if you have say 26 objects?
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2023-10-29T01:36:22 < Steffanx> Wouldn't the first one be 1 times? Take one coin out, do 13-13. If they are equal you picked the right coin.
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2023-10-29T01:39:47 < mawk> first one what
2023-10-29T01:39:51 < mawk> ah
2023-10-29T01:40:27 < mawk> that's not the minimal amount Steffanx 
2023-10-29T01:40:35 < mawk> it could be 1 time, if you're lucky 
2023-10-29T01:40:38 < mawk> but it's not guaranteed 
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2023-10-29T01:40:41 < Steffanx> Yes
2023-10-29T01:41:05 < mawk> the minimum amount you need to do to be guaranteed to know is 3
2023-10-29T01:41:32 < Steffanx> Sure. But im lucky and don't need the scale. 
2023-10-29T01:41:39 < mawk> split in groups of 9, then determine which group is heavier
2023-10-29T01:41:44 < Steffanx> I pick the fake one right away
2023-10-29T01:41:53 < mawk> then in that group split in groups of 3
2023-10-29T01:42:00 < mawk> and then in groups of 1
2023-10-29T01:42:02 < Steffanx> Yes, that's the boring solution 
2023-10-29T01:42:04 < mawk> and you win
2023-10-29T01:42:08 < mawk> lol
2023-10-29T01:42:46 < mawk> no the boring solution is making 26 weightings
2023-10-29T01:43:03 < Steffanx> I mean. Who guarantees me there's only 1 fake? 
2023-10-29T01:43:03 < mawk> pick one coin at random and then weigh each other coin against this one
2023-10-29T01:43:07 < mawk> me
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2023-10-29T02:10:01 < qyx> whoa 30 new spams "I RECORDED YOU"
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2023-10-29T03:44:52 < mawk> the mailman is delivering mail to the maths teacher, who poses a riddle to him. she says: "the product of the ages of my children is 36, and the sum of their ages is the number of the house across the street. what are their ages?" the mailman, who knows the number of the house across the street, says "I cannot know it." so the teacher adds "my elde
2023-10-29T03:44:52 < mawk> st plays the piano"; and the mailman now says "now I know their ages."
2023-10-29T03:44:57 < mawk> zyp ↑
2023-10-29T03:45:23 < mawk> what are the ages of her children?
2023-10-29T03:05:58 < qyx> too many assumptions are considered
2023-10-29T03:07:48 < qyx> assuming children are <18, so 1x36 and 2x18 are out of question
2023-10-29T03:07:57 < qyx> there is 3x12, 4x9 and 6x6 left
2023-10-29T03:08:14 < qyx> the last one is not the right answer
2023-10-29T03:08:26 < qyx> now how to decide between the first two
2023-10-29T03:09:49 < qyx> both of them have an odd sum so they are at the same side of the road
2023-10-29T03:10:57 < qyx> oh I assumed they are two
2023-10-29T03:11:00 < qyx> what if they are three
2023-10-29T03:13:47 < qyx> so 2x2x9, 3x3x4, 3x3x2x2 are considered, the last one doesn't have any eldest
2023-10-29T03:15:09 < qyx> sums are 13, 10, 10, the latter two are obviously on the same side of the street
2023-10-29T03:15:12 < qyx> I miss something
2023-10-29T03:15:48 < qyx> yeah I miss mailman's knowledge
2023-10-29T03:16:05 < qyx> he can differentiate between 13 and 10
2023-10-29T03:16:27 < qyx> but unless he knows the piano part, he considers two choices, the last two
2023-10-29T03:16:42 < qyx> mawk: 3, 3, 4 is the right answer?
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2023-10-29T03:56:02 < mawk> no qyx
2023-10-29T03:56:59 < mawk> you don't need any assumptions, you just need to know that 1) knowing the sum of the ages is not enough to identify the age triplet and 2) knowing that one age is above all the others ("eldest daughter") makes it enough to identify the triplet 
2023-10-29T03:57:20 < mawk> so you can eliminate all triplets whose sum is unique
2023-10-29T03:57:41 < mawk> 3+3+4 = 10 and it's the only triplet with that sum, so it can't be that one
2023-10-29T03:57:55 < mawk> otherwise the mailman could've answered from the beginning 
2023-10-29T03:58:30 < mawk> there are exactly 3 children yes qyx
2023-10-29T03:58:47 < mawk> sorry I forgot to mention it
2023-10-29T04:00:23 < mawk> the possible triplets (up to reordering) are: (36; 1; 1), (18; 2; 1), (12; 3; 1), (9; 4; 1), (9; 2; 2), (6; 6; 1), (6; 3; 2), (4; 3; 3)
2023-10-29T04:00:34 < mawk> all of these multiply to 36
2023-10-29T04:01:26 < mawk> and if you look at the sums you will see that they're almost all unique except for a few that are the same
2023-10-29T04:01:35 < mawk> so the answer is among those that are the same
2023-10-29T04:01:50 < mawk> otherwise the mailman could answer directly since he knows the number of the house across the street
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2023-10-29T05:00:10 < qyx> you mawk! why didn't you mention they are exactly 3
2023-10-29T05:31:00 < qyx> what the hell is with the time
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2023-10-29T05:52:29 < qyx> now I run out of samtec cortex headers
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2023-10-29T08:04:25 < mawk> time change
2023-10-29T08:04:37 < mawk> to DST
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2023-10-29T12:07:12 < zyp> mawk, 26 doesn't change anything, you still weigh 9 vs 9 and if one is lighter you're again left with a group of 9
2023-10-29T12:08:08 < zyp> and if they're equal, you add a random coin from one of those to the last group to make a 9
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2023-10-29T15:48:47 < antto> BGA and HASL, yes or no?
2023-10-29T15:52:54 < qyx> it works
2023-10-29T15:58:37 < jpa-> yeah, not a problem
2023-10-29T15:58:48 < mawk> if you're 1 above a power of 3 you can't add coins to the third group though zyp
2023-10-29T15:58:51 < mawk> like for 28
2023-10-29T15:59:01 < mawk> because the next power is 81
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2023-10-29T16:22:01 < mawk> I'm pretty sure you have to divide by 3 every time and keep the remainder aside
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2023-10-29T16:42:51 < mawk> a slightly related problem: a currency system is a list of denominations {a; b; c; …}, for instance for euros we have (in cents) {1; 2; 5; 10; 20; 50; 100; 200}
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2023-10-29T16:43:20 < mawk> what would be a currency system that allows to pay any amount and get back the change using at most 1 of each coin?
2023-10-29T16:43:58 < antto> gold
2023-10-29T16:44:09 < mawk> for instance with euro coins paying 13 using 10 and 5 and getting back 2 would work, we used at most 1 of each coin
2023-10-29T16:44:27 < mawk> but it doesn't always work
2023-10-29T16:44:49 < mawk> paying 14 for instance is done with 10, 2, 2
2023-10-29T16:44:55 < mawk> or 10, 2, 1, 1
2023-10-29T16:45:05 < mawk> no matter how you do it you have duplicates
2023-10-29T16:45:11 < antto> no, you give 10 and 5, and get 1
2023-10-29T16:45:47 < jpa-> coins of 1,2,4,8,16,... would work
2023-10-29T16:45:47 < mawk> yes that's another way
2023-10-29T16:46:05 < mawk> yeah jpa- 
2023-10-29T16:46:05 < antto> powers of two coins ;P~
2023-10-29T16:46:09 < mawk> but it's not optimal
2023-10-29T16:46:23 < mawk> but indeed using these coins you can pay any amount 
2023-10-29T16:46:29 < mawk> and don't even need change back
2023-10-29T16:47:00 < antto> it all falls apart when you don't have the right combo of coins in the first place
2023-10-29T16:47:14 < mawk> you have 1 of each coin in your wallet
2023-10-29T16:47:18 < mawk> and the shopkeeper same
2023-10-29T16:47:30 < antto> so i'm as rich as the shop? ;P~
2023-10-29T16:47:36 < antto> poor shop
2023-10-29T16:47:43 < mawk> and when paying and giving back the change, you need to have at most 1 of each coin used *for the whole transaction*
2023-10-29T16:47:54 < mawk> if you used a coin of 5, the shopkeeper cannot give back a coin of 5
2023-10-29T16:48:14 < jpa-> coins of 1, -2, 4, -8, 16, .. would work too, but there is some risk that people would intentionally lose the negative coins
2023-10-29T16:48:53 < mawk> well a coin of -2 actually means getting back 2 from the shopkeeper
2023-10-29T16:49:01 < mawk> so you're on the right track
2023-10-29T16:49:31 < antto> in before we stop having physical money
2023-10-29T16:49:39 < mawk> apart from the single coin thing we also want the system to be optimal, which means we can represent numbers using the least amount of denominations 
2023-10-29T16:50:16 < jpa-> it's silly to have people with most of the wealth carry the burden of heavy wallet
2023-10-29T16:50:31 < jpa-> makes much more sense to balance the load between those who owe and those who have
2023-10-29T16:50:43 < antto> oh no, poor rich dudes... carrying that huge weight
2023-10-29T16:50:45 < jpa-> thus, -2 coins
2023-10-29T16:57:20 < englishman> karl marx does math
2023-10-29T17:19:09 < mawk> jpa- if we look at a base b system, you need log_b(N) digits base b to represent N, so in total log_B(N)·b different symbols, and the minimum is attained for b = e
2023-10-29T17:19:16 < mawk> so base e would be the best, but base e doesn't exist
2023-10-29T17:19:21 < mawk> the closest integer is 3
2023-10-29T17:19:44 < mawk> so having base 3 stuff would be the most efficient 
2023-10-29T17:20:18 < mawk> but there is a twist
2023-10-29T17:20:49 < mawk> there is something called balanced ternary, which is exactly equivalent to ternary
2023-10-29T17:21:08 < mawk> so having coins of {1; -1; 3; -3; 9; -9; …} you can represent any number
2023-10-29T17:21:26 < mawk> and again we assign the negative coins to the shopkeeper, representing giving change back
2023-10-29T17:21:50 < mawk> for instance 17 = 27 - 9 - 1
2023-10-29T17:22:06 < mawk> and any number can be written like this, using at most 1 of each coin in the whole transaction 
2023-10-29T17:22:15 < mawk> and the representation is unique
2023-10-29T17:22:21 < mawk> if we forbid useless stuff like 3-3
2023-10-29T17:22:48 < mawk> using this system you carry the least amount of coins to be able to pay anything 
2023-10-29T17:24:22 < mawk> proving that it's unique and represents any number can be done for instance by giving an algorithm to transform from ternary to balanced ternary
2023-10-29T17:24:27 < mawk> and proving that it terminates
2023-10-29T17:25:38 < mawk> in ternary you transform each 2 into 1(1)
2023-10-29T17:25:44 < mawk> where (1) denotes a negative digit
2023-10-29T17:25:51 < mawk> from right to left
2023-10-29T17:26:46 < mawk> dor instance 1(1)0(1) is -1·3⁰ + 0·3¹ - 1·3² + 1·3³ = 17
2023-10-29T17:28:46 < mawk> in ternary it is 122, and transforming from right to left you get 122 → 13(1) → 20(1) → 1(1)0(1)
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2023-10-29T23:50:08 < jbo> blaxter got a new law
2023-10-29T23:51:14 < Steffanx> Uh?
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--- Day changed ma loka 30 2023
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2023-10-30T00:59:37 < jbo> something about prevent child pornography
2023-10-30T00:59:53 < jbo> by discregarding privacy
2023-10-30T01:01:11 < qyx> hes blaxtered
2023-10-30T01:01:56 < qyx> where is the laurence giving talks about balloons and other cool things instead of doing sh*t on the web
2023-10-30T01:10:33 < jbo> you should have experience him around 2009...
2023-10-30T01:10:39 < jbo> he was much more... liberal back then
2023-10-30T01:10:58 < jbo> now the question: do I want to go BGA or QFP for this STM32H7 board?
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2023-10-30T01:16:30 < qyx> I did tfba100
2023-10-30T01:17:01 < jbo> is that fun to assemble?
2023-10-30T01:17:10 < jbo> 0.8mm is kinda doable, right?
2023-10-30T01:17:16 < qyx> totally not, boring
2023-10-30T01:17:22 < qyx> *not a fun
2023-10-30T01:17:45 < qyx> tacky flux, put it down, blow here and there, done
2023-10-30T01:18:09 < jbo> sounds like TFBGA100 is less of a PITA to assemble than TQFP100 then
2023-10-30T01:18:18 < jbo> qyx, I do have a somewhat reasonable reflow oven
2023-10-30T01:18:19 < qyx> yes
2023-10-30T01:18:26 < qyx> that was my impression too
2023-10-30T01:18:35 < qyx> the same goes for eg. QFN48 vs QFP48
2023-10-30T01:18:42 < qyx> I stopped using QFPs altogether
2023-10-30T01:19:46 < jbo> TBGA not in stock  q___q
2023-10-30T01:20:34 < qyx> just buy a nucleo, wiring your stuff is 10 minutes incl. the microphone, 4 wires
2023-10-30T01:20:39 < qyx> for the start
2023-10-30T01:21:07 < jbo> my only part in this project is making the PCB so... :D
2023-10-30T01:21:17 < qyx> no programming?
2023-10-30T01:21:26 < jbo> nah, my friend will handle that.
2023-10-30T01:21:33 < qyx> wish him best luck
2023-10-30T01:21:39 < qyx> and that was the best decision for you
2023-10-30T01:21:40 < qyx> tbh
2023-10-30T01:21:47 < qyx> I hate programming
2023-10-30T01:21:53 < jbo> I know, right? And I even told him it's gonna be a PITA :D
2023-10-30T01:22:07 < jbo> I worked on a project with an STM32H7 for 14 months. it was a... PITA.
2023-10-30T01:22:56 < zyp> how so?
2023-10-30T01:23:30 < jbo> the thing had to handle 4 stereo audio streams and graphics/GUI together with some bluetooth crap and regular UI (buttons, encoder, LEDs, ...)
2023-10-30T01:23:48 < jbo> it was rather tedious to get everything to work properly.
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2023-10-30T02:57:44 < qyx> I have never seen so fucked up search like distrelec has
2023-10-30T02:58:09 < qyx> the whole web is
2023-10-30T02:59:48 < qyx> who the hell even translates "circular connector" as "gulaty konektor" (=spherical)
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2023-10-30T08:11:55 < antto> i went for H723 in QFP-100
2023-10-30T08:12:13 < antto> altho i've been hesitating about the QFP-144 version too
2023-10-30T08:12:59 < antto> by now i've soldered probably hundred(s?) of QFPs with the iron
2023-10-30T08:16:50 < antto> drag-soldering and cheap rosin-based flux, isopropanol to clean it up, done: https://i.imgur.com/C7zPWTk.jpg
2023-10-30T08:18:39 < antto> but for the new board, i do have a BGA (RAM), so i'll have to get a hotair gun... or bring the thing to $job
2023-10-30T08:21:37 < srk> impressive
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2023-10-30T08:23:20 < antto> what's impressive?
2023-10-30T08:23:44 < srk> antto: the pic, drag soldering .. but it looks like straight out of factory
2023-10-30T08:25:38 < antto> well of course..
2023-10-30T08:26:35 < antto> finer pitch is easier to do, i don't do drag-soldering on 1.27mm pitch stuff because it's a waste of flux and cleaning, so those end up looking uglier
2023-10-30T08:27:14 < antto> the key thing is to position it perfectly, then the flux does the magic
2023-10-30T08:28:52 < antto> also, as you drag solder - hold the iron _barely_ with your fingers, in case the iron tip gets stuck on the pins - it would rather slip out of your fingers instead of you holding it tightly and bending the legs
2023-10-30T08:29:22 < antto> (yes, usually my iron tips are not great and they do that)
2023-10-30T08:32:19 < srk> nice, will practice ^^ we mostly did QF* with reflow oven but it could be handy when oven isn't available
2023-10-30T08:32:54 < antto> well, i haven't done smaller pitch than 0.5mm, but between 0.8 and 0.5 - 0.5 is easier, it's more difficult to see (for me) that's why i use help like magnifying glass or my camera to be able to see if i've positioned it perfectly
2023-10-30T08:33:11 < antto> 0.65mm is also easer than 0.8
2023-10-30T08:35:12 < antto> srk, shout if you need encouragement or tips ;P~
2023-10-30T08:36:06 < srk> :)) I will!
2023-10-30T08:37:14 < srk> have some Otter Iron Pro boards to assemble, that will also enable better irons :D
2023-10-30T08:37:46 < antto> here's this QFP, do note that this was a very unnatural setup due to the camera: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhLDsD7NTjY
2023-10-30T08:38:23 < antto> i normally do it faster and better than that
2023-10-30T08:38:47 < antto> skip to 3rd minute
2023-10-30T08:39:11 < srk> ghetto soldering lol 
2023-10-30T08:40:08 < antto> yes, cheap ($5) iron, no tweezers, no fancy tools
2023-10-30T08:43:51 < antto> i'll probably record another video next time i solder such QFP at home, this time with a better setup and less silly moves
2023-10-30T08:45:02 < nohit> better way of positioning the chip is to put it in place, hold it in place by pressing, add liquid flux to one corner, touch up that corner with iron that has solder on it
2023-10-30T08:45:17 < nohit> and then do same on the opposite corner
2023-10-30T08:45:37 < nohit> and then just drag solder
2023-10-30T09:00:29 < nohit> seems kinda hard to position the chip and solder at the same time
2023-10-30T09:04:46 < antto> nohit, i try to not press the chip down too much before it's in position because with HASL the surface isn't very flat, and this might bend a leg sideways or up
2023-10-30T09:05:22 < antto> if some legs are bent up in the air - you might not see them, and if they are far enough above the pad - flux won't help you
2023-10-30T09:06:30 < antto> i mean, when there's enough distance (air gap) between the pad and the leg, no matter whether both are hot, when there's flux you'll get solder onto the pad, onto the leg, but it won't magicaly bridge the two, so it'll be left not soldered
2023-10-30T09:06:43 < antto> legs bent sideways is obviously not good either
2023-10-30T09:07:36 < antto> nohit, and don't judge by this video, as i said, the camera setup and the lighting was terrible so i couldn't see wtf i'm doing and i wasted much longer time than i typically do
2023-10-30T09:07:55 < antto> the camera was hooked up to my monitor but the picture was 180deg rotated
2023-10-30T09:09:13 < antto> i also did silly things with the flux here, i should've just used the liquid flux with the brush
2023-10-30T09:09:32 < nohit> yeah, i just told my method, maybe i shouldn't say its "better", to me its easier
2023-10-30T09:09:48 < nohit> but liquid flux is great
2023-10-30T09:10:03 < nohit> for passives also
2023-10-30T09:10:03 < antto> do you use rosin-based flux with your method?
2023-10-30T09:10:18 < nohit> yes for the drag soldering part
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2023-10-30T09:10:51 < antto> right... i try to avoid adding flux too early or in general
2023-10-30T09:11:02 < antto> because then i have to clean it
2023-10-30T09:11:30 < antto> so i add it only after the chip is perfectly positioned
2023-10-30T09:12:07 < antto> sometimes i even fix ugly solder joints or shorts by adding..... IPA
2023-10-30T09:12:15 < antto> yes ;P~
2023-10-30T09:13:16 < antto> does that count as innovation? ;P~
2023-10-30T09:13:29 < antto> i heard folks here love innovations
2023-10-30T09:15:14 < nohit> sure why not
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2023-10-30T09:24:47 < nohit> this is what i use for passives and attaching chips https://www.mouser.fi/ProductDetail/Chip-Quik/CQ7LF-B-R?qs=Wj%2FVkw3K%252BMCpBxSIsfZzyw%3D%3D
2023-10-30T09:25:29 < nohit> very handy
2023-10-30T09:29:10 < antto> i don't use flux on passives
2023-10-30T09:29:18 < antto> well, unless something goes wrong
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2023-10-30T09:41:10 < BrainDamage> gel flux works a bit better with ics in my experience
2023-10-30T09:41:26 < BrainDamage> the extra viscosity helps keeping them in place until I've soldered the corners
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2023-10-30T09:52:55 < mawk> I pour a bucket of flux over everything 
2023-10-30T09:53:08 < mawk> it gives a nice perfume to the room
2023-10-30T09:53:11 < mawk> depending on the brand
2023-10-30T09:53:22 < mawk> MG chemicals flux has a nice smell
2023-10-30T09:55:05 < antto> :/
2023-10-30T09:55:09 < antto> <concern.jpg>
2023-10-30T09:58:36 < mawk> if it smells nice it can't be bad for you
2023-10-30T10:04:09 < BrainDamage> use flux in an essential oil diffuser
2023-10-30T10:04:47 < BrainDamage> those use random plant oils, if you use rosin, it's not much different
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2023-10-30T12:24:04 < Laurence_b> this is a zero tolerance area
2023-10-30T12:24:06 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FF8k0i2wX0AAbiuj.jpg
2023-10-30T12:24:41 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FF8k0i2rXMAAwLRx.jpg  kek
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2023-10-30T12:29:31 < Laurence_b> tfw I dont get to enjoy the sexual  simulator
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2023-10-30T13:41:40 < kitzman> just started embedded development with no SDKs whatsoever; pointers to documentation welcome
2023-10-30T13:42:50 < qyx> st.com reference manuals and datasheetz
2023-10-30T13:43:33 < kitzman> i use the usart protocol from the system memory to program and run, described in an3155, but it seems that the go command does not jump to the described address.
2023-10-30T13:45:42 < kitzman> maybe the firmware has bugs?
2023-10-30T13:59:40 < srk> https://vivonomicon.com/category/stm32_baremetal_examples/
2023-10-30T14:00:22 < srk> my bot banned arghh
2023-10-30T14:17:16 < mawk> use YAL
2023-10-30T14:17:18 < mawk> HAL
2023-10-30T14:17:43 < mawk> the firmware may have bugs but not here kitzman no you're just using it wrong
2023-10-30T14:17:49 < mawk> but you don't have a stlink or jlink?
2023-10-30T14:17:54 < mawk> what board are you working with
2023-10-30T14:17:56 < mawk> a nucleo?
2023-10-30T14:18:19 < mawk> also, download stm32cubeide or stm32cubemx to generate the peripheral initialization code and stuff for you
2023-10-30T14:18:26 < mawk> or do it all by hand but good luck
2023-10-30T14:23:12 < karlp> fuckin nxp: https://imgur.com/a/FEAWW2Y
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2023-10-30T15:15:07 < kitzman> mawk: not available on my OS, but I don't need it if I read the docs; i used now a linux box, apparently my flashing utility has an issue
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2023-10-30T15:33:56 < kitzman> there's a VM implemented for stm32: https://github.com/dboddie/inferno-os
2023-10-30T15:35:01 < kitzman> i'll use parts of the kernel for learning how to write an RTOS
2023-10-30T15:42:27 < mawk> ???
2023-10-30T15:42:31 < mawk> what 's your OS
2023-10-30T15:42:36 < mawk> it's just java stuff
2023-10-30T15:42:39 < mawk> it's available everywhere 
2023-10-30T15:42:52 < mawk> what do you mean you don't need it
2023-10-30T15:43:07 < mawk> you're a very early beginner
2023-10-30T15:43:21 < mawk> you don't know what you need, and it's certainly not low level register programming 
2023-10-30T15:43:24 < mawk> unless you like that
2023-10-30T15:43:45 < mawk> stm32cubeide and stm32cubemx both work on any linux machine kitzman 
2023-10-30T15:43:50 < mawk> especially the latter
2023-10-30T15:44:01 < mawk> doesn't need any dirty tricks, just run it with java and that's it
2023-10-30T15:44:19 < mawk> and the ide well you can always use the appimage or whatever if you can't manage to run it yourself on your system
2023-10-30T15:44:30 < jbo> or don't use linux
2023-10-30T15:44:35 < mawk> I put mine in a docker container to be able to run it on "unsupported" ubuntu version
2023-10-30T15:44:37 < mawk> works very well
2023-10-30T16:01:41 < jpa-> math geek mawk: can you tell me what the   |    |_max    notation for complex numbers means?  https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/iec61000_4_20.png
2023-10-30T16:01:47 < jpa-> i cannot spot any variable to take maximum over
2023-10-30T16:02:53 < jpa-> my best interpretation is that the maximum is over R_H because earlier text suggests it, but maybe this notation means something else?
2023-10-30T16:03:40 < jpa-> hmm wait
2023-10-30T16:04:21 < jpa-> no.. still don't get it
2023-10-30T16:32:04 < mawk> the max amplitude?
2023-10-30T16:32:08 < mawk> |z| means amplitude
2023-10-30T16:32:11 < mawk> ir norm
2023-10-30T16:32:36 < jpa-> ok, matches how i understand the syntax
2023-10-30T16:36:02 < mawk> variables is r1 and r2
2023-10-30T16:36:21 < mawk> so that's what you maximize the thing on
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2023-10-30T16:37:36 < mawk> |f(z)|_max means max_z |f(z)| = max_z √(f(z)f*(z))
2023-10-30T16:37:56 < mawk> and if f(z) = a(z) + ib(z) then that's max √(a(z)²+b(z)²)
2023-10-30T16:38:23 < mawk> which is attained at the same time as f(z)f*(z) = a(z)²+b(z)² so you can look at that instead 
2023-10-30T16:38:28 < mawk> and not have the ugly square root
2023-10-30T16:38:36 < mawk> f(z)f*(z) is a nice expression usually 
2023-10-30T16:38:41 < mawk> * is the conjugate 
2023-10-30T16:39:56 < mawk> so if f(s, t) = exp(as)/s + exp(bt)/t like here, the conjugate is exp(-as)/s + exp(-bt)/t
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2023-10-30T16:41:02 < mawk> or with a - instead of a + here
2023-10-30T16:42:59 < mawk> and multiplying the two you get 1/s² + 1/t² - 2/(st) cos(as-bt)
2023-10-30T16:43:05 < mawk> which is exactly what they say
2023-10-30T16:43:35 < mawk> I forgot the js in the exponentials but you get the idea
2023-10-30T16:45:55 < mawk> a simpler example is |e^(ju)+e^(jv)|² = (e^(ju) + e^(jv))(e^(-ju) + e^(-jv)) = 2 + 2cos(u-v)
2023-10-30T16:47:03 < mawk> and we all know that 1+cos(2x) = cos(x)² so actually the example above is 4cos((u-v)/2)²
2023-10-30T16:47:20 < mawk> so |e^(ju) + e^(jv)| = 2cos((u-v)/2)
2023-10-30T16:47:29 < mawk> isn't that beautiful 
2023-10-30T16:47:45 < mawk> 1+cos(2x) = 2cos(x)² sorry 
2023-10-30T16:48:43 < mawk> ok jpa- ?
2023-10-30T16:48:48 < mawk> the key is using the conjugate 
2023-10-30T16:48:52 < mawk> that's how they found the thing
2023-10-30T16:49:05 < mawk> knowing that z + z* = 2Re(z)
2023-10-30T16:49:10 < mawk> that's where the cos comes from
2023-10-30T16:49:25 < mawk> e^(jt) + e^(-jt) = 2cos(t)
2023-10-30T16:49:44 < mawk> and z - z* = 2i·Im(z)
2023-10-30T17:01:49 < jpa-> i'm lost
2023-10-30T17:02:38 < mawk> :(
2023-10-30T17:03:21 < mawk> when we write |f(z)|², the amplitude squared, that's in particular equal to f(z)f*(z)
2023-10-30T17:03:24 < mawk> ok jpa- ?
2023-10-30T17:03:33 < mawk> where f*(z) is the conjugate 
2023-10-30T17:03:44 < mawk> (a+ib)* = a-ib
2023-10-30T17:04:00 < mawk> and that's what we use to compute the thing in your image
2023-10-30T17:04:15 < mawk> the conjugate of exp(jt) is exp(-jt)
2023-10-30T17:04:46 < mawk> and that's all you need to know to compute the thing in the picture
2023-10-30T17:05:10 < mawk> are you still lost jpa- 
2023-10-30T17:05:17 < mawk> you can work out small examples
2023-10-30T17:05:41 < jpa-> no i don't even know if this is what i should be doing
2023-10-30T17:05:51 < mawk> why not
2023-10-30T17:05:59 < mawk> it's exactly what you should be doing
2023-10-30T17:06:00 < jpa-> because it makes no sense to me
2023-10-30T17:06:08 < mawk> |•| is the complex absolute value
2023-10-30T17:06:10 < jpa-> i think i just need to feed in some numbers and get numbers back
2023-10-30T17:06:25 < mawk> it denotes the length of the complex number, viewed as a vector
2023-10-30T17:06:39 < jpa-> and the right hand side is already in real numbers, with that silly exp(j * ...) representation already solved to nice cos()
2023-10-30T17:06:47 < mawk> so |2+3i| = √(2²+3²), just like for a 2D vectoe
2023-10-30T17:07:00 < mawk> well the complex amplitude is always a positive real number yes
2023-10-30T17:07:05 < mawk> it's a length
2023-10-30T17:07:29 < mawk> it's all just like vectors
2023-10-30T17:07:35 < mawk> they have a length
2023-10-30T17:08:13 < mawk> they also have an angle relative to the x-axis, and in particular exp(jθ) is on the unit circle and has angle θ
2023-10-30T17:08:29 < mawk> it's the same as the vector (cos(θ); sin(θ))
2023-10-30T17:08:37 < mawk> just a compact way to write it
2023-10-30T17:09:12 < mawk> and actually exp(jθ) = cos(θ) + j·sin(θ), that's a fundamental formula for complex numbers
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2023-10-30T17:24:50 < WernherVonData> qyx: Got update regarding stuff you were helping me out on Friday - it was overrun error - sat today and tested how to check it - and yes - when spamming multiple XOFF signals got overrun error - thanks again for your time :)
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2023-10-30T18:22:46 < kitzman> mawk: used to use linux, previously used the CMSIS library. ld scripts worked well. i currently use some CMSIS include files
2023-10-30T18:24:50 < kitzman> cubemx for generating templates
2023-10-30T18:25:19 < kitzman> currently the programmer i wrote is broken so i'll fix that first
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2023-10-30T18:47:12 < mawk> why did you say cubemx isn't compatible with your os if you're using cubemx kitzman 
2023-10-30T18:55:58 -!- nerozero [~nerozero@87.253.63.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
2023-10-30T18:59:42 < kitzman> mawk: used to use cubemx, when I used linux. I now use plan9
2023-10-30T18:59:53 < kitzman> CMSIS header files are still useful.
2023-10-30T19:00:06 < kitzman> i consider this to be a primer to writing kernel support for devices
2023-10-30T19:00:33 < zyp> don't you have JRE on plan9?
2023-10-30T19:00:37 < kitzman> no
2023-10-30T19:01:10 < kitzman> plus i won't have sdks for other devices most probably
2023-10-30T19:01:32 < kitzman> so it's better to get used to writing code like this
2023-10-30T19:01:35 < mawk> we can't really help you when you intentionally use wildly incompatible tools on purpose lol
2023-10-30T19:01:43 < mawk> no it's not really better
2023-10-30T19:02:38 < kitzman> mawk: if i want to write inferno os/plan9 support for other devices (such as a rpi zero) then i'd be used to it 
2023-10-30T19:03:01 < nomorekaki> kitzman: why not use linux?
2023-10-30T19:03:52 < kitzman> the fact that this channel has people experienced in stm32 programming still holds
2023-10-30T19:04:32 < jbo> nomorekaki, because Linux is a pile of unstructured & fragmented crap
2023-10-30T19:05:19 < kitzman> nomorekaki: a bit offtopic; but yeah i agree with jbo; i can write my own tools tho
2023-10-30T19:05:51 < jbo> kitzman, have you considered BSD?
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2023-10-30T19:09:33 < PaulFertser> kitzman: hm, did you try porting OpenOCD to p9?
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2023-10-30T19:17:32 < nomorekaki> what stops plan9 running stuff for linux?
2023-10-30T19:17:52 < nomorekaki> is it posix compatible?
2023-10-30T19:18:19 < jbo> nomorekaki, most linux distros aren't POSIX compatible so... :D
2023-10-30T19:18:32 < nomorekaki> partially
2023-10-30T19:18:40 < jbo> jup
2023-10-30T19:18:49 < nomorekaki> what is missing btw?
2023-10-30T19:19:31 < nomorekaki> i could probs google it
2023-10-30T19:20:15 < mawk> users
2023-10-30T19:20:20 < jbo> lol
2023-10-30T19:20:30 < mawk> someone has to build openjdk for it 
2023-10-30T19:20:40 < mawk> and since kitzman is the only person using plan9 nobody did it
2023-10-30T19:21:41 < Steffanx> Some people have an obsession with math. Others like some obscure OS....
2023-10-30T19:21:54 < Steffanx> What's the problem?
2023-10-30T19:22:05 < mawk> you mean, most people have an irrational aversion to maths
2023-10-30T19:22:16 < mawk> and the rest are perfectly normal and balanced people
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2023-10-30T19:22:32 < jbo> mawk, I know several people running plan9
2023-10-30T19:22:34 < Steffanx> Uhm... That's not what I meant or said. 
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2023-10-30T19:22:44 < mawk> yes Steffanx 
2023-10-30T19:22:51 < mawk> that's the only truth
2023-10-30T19:23:02 < Steffanx> Ok king mawk 
2023-10-30T19:23:04 < mawk> jbo kitzman doesn't count
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2023-10-30T19:24:48  * jbo is struggling with an SSD1312 display controller
2023-10-30T19:25:03 < mawk> I wrote a driver for exactly that display controller jbo
2023-10-30T19:25:06 < mawk> for stm32
2023-10-30T19:25:12 < mawk> what r u struggling with
2023-10-30T19:25:27 < mawk> I remember getting the SPI polarity and CS timing being a bit annoying 
2023-10-30T19:25:51 < jbo> mawk, nah I can talk to it. shit on the display just doesn't look right. most likely a segment mapping / addressing mode issue. trying to use page addressing mode.
2023-10-30T19:26:03 < mawk> ah
2023-10-30T19:50:48 < qyx> I jave not done anything with colour displays yet
2023-10-30T19:50:51 < qyx> I hate colours
2023-10-30T19:51:03 < machinehum> qyx: same
2023-10-30T19:51:06 < machinehum> To many of em
2023-10-30T19:51:34 < qyx> I would prefer transflective b/w with 50 shades of grey
2023-10-30T19:51:39 < qyx> or 4/16 at least
2023-10-30T19:53:44 < qyx> Steffanx: is texim-europe legit? they are dutches
2023-10-30T19:53:57 < qyx> nah sorry irrelevant, not in stock
2023-10-30T19:55:14 < Steffanx> probably legit.
2023-10-30T19:55:29 < Steffanx> it does sound familiar
2023-10-30T19:55:48 < qyx> jbo: yesterday I was watching some cockpit video from helvetic airlines, looked very good, some new embraers
2023-10-30T19:56:08 < qyx> yeah to me too but idk where do I know them from
2023-10-30T19:58:01 < Steffanx> At work we do business with them if seems. 
2023-10-30T19:58:11 < Steffanx> it.
2023-10-30T19:58:41 < qyx> but your business is shady
2023-10-30T19:59:08 < Steffanx> Totally.
2023-10-30T19:59:51 < qyx> some microchip stuff
2023-10-30T19:59:57 < qyx> who even uses that
2023-10-30T20:03:21 < Steffanx> They have some useful ics
2023-10-30T20:04:47 < qyx> mcp2562 yeah and sama5d27
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2023-10-30T20:09:38 < Ecco> Is there a Nucleo board that showcases the touch sensing controller?
2023-10-30T20:09:47 < Ecco> I'm sure I saw one, but for some reason I can't find it
2023-10-30T20:09:57 < zyp> l0 (and maybe l1 as well)
2023-10-30T20:10:04 < zyp> not nucleo, discovery
2023-10-30T20:11:05 < Ecco> oh
2023-10-30T20:11:09 < Ecco> ok thanks
2023-10-30T20:11:24 < Ecco> https://www.st.com/en/evaluation-tools/32l0538discovery.html Indeed. Thanks zyp!
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2023-10-30T20:24:37 < nomorekaki> ui looks clean
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2023-10-30T20:24:49 < nomorekaki> plan9 ui
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2023-10-30T21:10:59 < nomorekaki> maybe I should install spotify Steffanx
2023-10-30T21:11:40 < nomorekaki> I remember I used it couple of times like 10years ago but didn't like the ads
2023-10-30T21:11:52 < Steffanx> Maybe you should 
2023-10-30T21:12:49 < nomorekaki> hmm 12eur a month
2023-10-30T21:12:50 < Steffanx> I pay for it like a proper moneyed westerner
2023-10-30T21:13:05 < nomorekaki> I pay for it or not use it at all
2023-10-30T21:16:54 < WernherVonData> Apart from music on Spotify there are podcasts - found some nice group of true-blood Tolkien guys who made own audiobook of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings
2023-10-30T21:17:14 < WernherVonData> They put effort to add ambient sounds
2023-10-30T21:17:31 < WernherVonData> And they sing ALL the songs
2023-10-30T21:20:37 < nomorekaki> when spotify came I didn't like how it monopoliced the market
2023-10-30T21:21:09 < ventYl> are there songs in LotR books?
2023-10-30T21:22:36 < ventYl> nomorekaki: I ended up changing spark plugs, HT wires, distributor heat and distributor "finger" (IDK what's the english name for it)
2023-10-30T21:22:54 < ventYl> distributor parts were from year 2001
2023-10-30T21:23:01 < nomorekaki> good thing about spotify now is that it has virtually a monopoly.. I guess paying spotify subs covers all musics almost
2023-10-30T21:23:29 < nomorekaki> but if you want all the movies and series
2023-10-30T21:23:32 < WernherVonData> ventYl: yes - there is plenty of songs written by Tolkien - and they add music for them. 
2023-10-30T21:23:52 < WernherVonData> Like in the Hobbit
2023-10-30T21:23:55 < nomorekaki> ventYl: it has distributor?
2023-10-30T21:24:02 < ventYl> nomorekaki: yes
2023-10-30T21:24:21 < ventYl> nomorekaki: the engine in that car is japanese variant of VAZ2018
2023-10-30T21:24:22 < nomorekaki> I dont remember seeing a distributor since 90s
2023-10-30T21:24:28 < ventYl> it would if it had carburetor
2023-10-30T21:25:03 < ventYl> distributors were rather common until late '90s
2023-10-30T21:25:54 < ventYl> then some manufacturers switched to ignition modules because these could do the wasted spark ignition, so you removed one moving part and didn't have to add one sensor
2023-10-30T21:26:35 < ventYl> WernherVonData: I have never read or watched LotR and was only able to read like 15 pages of Hobbit
2023-10-30T21:32:52 < WernherVonData> ventYl: with Hobbit it's hard to read like first chapter, then the action moves forward and Bilbo slowly but surely stops being whining sissy. Hobbit movie is definetely not worth to watch in my humble opinion
2023-10-30T21:36:47 < ventYl> WernherVonData: I only made it until the end of Hobbit house description. Then description of something else started and I was like: fuck it
2023-10-30T21:37:15 < ventYl> and I am not planning to watch any of them
2023-10-30T21:39:00 < nomorekaki> youtube premium is basically the same price than spotify steff
2023-10-30T21:40:27 < Ecco> Have you guys ever used an STM32's touch sensor?
2023-10-30T21:40:40 < Ecco> Here's the schematics from STM32L0 discovery board:
2023-10-30T21:40:50 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/rbxPeJK.png
2023-10-30T21:41:32 < zyp> I haven't but I read up on it once a bunch of years ago
2023-10-30T21:41:49 < Ecco> I have a bunch of questions: 1/ Why do they use 3 different groups? Could they use just one group? In that case, should they use only one capacitor and only 4 pins?
2023-10-30T21:42:04 < Ecco> 2/ When doing a linear sensor, is it better to have more pads?
2023-10-30T21:42:17 < Ecco> (I assume the answer is yes, but I wonder why they only use 3 in the demo board then)
2023-10-30T21:42:36 < Ecco> 3/ What about the "driven shield" mode? Supposedly it's better, yet they don't use it in the demo board
2023-10-30T21:42:59 < zyp> I guess 2 would depend on how long you want to make it
2023-10-30T21:43:22 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/sSUN1HP.png this is the schematics from AN4312
2023-10-30T21:43:38 < Ecco> For the "driven shield", the group has really just a single pin that's connected to the shield
2023-10-30T21:43:41 < Ecco> that makes sense to me
2023-10-30T21:43:52 < Ecco> In the picture, group 8 is the "shield group"
2023-10-30T21:43:54 < Ecco> yet in CubeMX
2023-10-30T21:44:19 < Ecco> if I set up a group with just a shield pin
2023-10-30T21:44:48 < Ecco> I get an error: "You have configured a shield IO pin in group 6. Please select a Sampling IO in the same group."
2023-10-30T21:45:07 < Ecco> but unless I'm mistaken that's not what's shown in AN4312
2023-10-30T21:48:42 < qyx> WernherVonData: hobbit movie was ok as I remember it
2023-10-30T21:48:49 < qyx> I mean, it could be worse
2023-10-30T21:48:49 < Ecco> Oh, ok, I migh thave an explanation: each group needs a capacitor pin (what CubeMX calls a "sampling pin")
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2023-10-30T21:54:13 < nomorekaki> Steffanx: I went with google - same price
2023-10-30T22:00:48 < nomorekaki> now I need new motherboard as these web apps have some weight
2023-10-30T22:01:20 < qyx> did it break
2023-10-30T22:02:12 < nomorekaki> motherboard?
2023-10-30T22:03:41 < WernherVonData> qyx: it was ok, but for me it was like a step back to what Jackson did originally - didn't like all the green screens, plus did this story really needed to add dwarf-elf romance to it?
2023-10-30T22:07:54 < mawk> it's time for today's problem: you have two identical ICs which need ESD testing, and you have an ESD gun with 100 increasing shock levels. how to determine at which level the ICs will break, in the least amount of tests? we assume the ICs do not get damaged if they don't break at a given level; and that if they break at level k they would also bre
2023-10-30T22:07:54 < mawk> ak at level > k (obviously)
2023-10-30T22:08:27 < mawk> one strategy would be to test level 1, then 2, then 3, …, until 100; for 100 tries total but that's not optimal
2023-10-30T22:08:54 < mawk> another strategy is to test level 2, 4, 6, …, 100; and when it breaks say at level 94, you try level 93 with the second IC
2023-10-30T22:09:00 < mawk> so that gives 51 tries total at most
2023-10-30T22:09:06 < mawk> so it's much better but still not ideal
2023-10-30T22:11:15 < mawk> u can also try level 20, 40, 60, 80, 100; and when it breaks you do the 19 levels below; so 24 total; which is better but still not optimal
2023-10-30T22:11:52 < nomorekaki> I would ask mawk if I had to optimize such test
2023-10-30T22:12:09 < mawk> and then inevitably the generalization: what happens if you have 3 ICs, or 4 ICs, etc
2023-10-30T22:12:17 < mawk> lol
2023-10-30T22:12:45 < nomorekaki> seriously I would ask mawk
2023-10-30T22:12:52 < Steffanx> Get spotify with the family nomorekaki. its cheaper
2023-10-30T22:16:43 < nomorekaki> forgot how slow spinning media is
2023-10-30T22:17:00 < nomorekaki> formating 2TB 11hours left
2023-10-30T22:17:21 < nomorekaki> speed is 39MBps and falling
2023-10-30T22:19:09 < nomorekaki> its not even random accessing
2023-10-30T22:20:44 < mawk> why are you formatting like this
2023-10-30T22:20:49 < mawk> you want to delete data?
2023-10-30T22:20:56 < mawk> just formatting "slow" like this is good enough 
2023-10-30T22:21:13 < mawk> most modern drives have a secure erase function which is much faster than what you're doing
2023-10-30T22:21:18 < mawk> and actually destroys the data
2023-10-30T22:21:26 < mawk> try hdparm with secure erase mode
2023-10-30T22:21:44 < mawk> first set the admin password to test and then use that password to do the secure erase
2023-10-30T22:21:53 < mawk> query drive capabilities to know if it's supported
2023-10-30T22:22:04 < mawk> formatting like this isn't good enough***
2023-10-30T22:22:59 < nomorekaki> it's like 2yo drive so probs has it
2023-10-30T22:24:36 < nomorekaki> everything is written encrypted on hdd nowdays?
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2023-10-30T22:29:30 < jbo> could somebody please slap some sense into me?
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2023-10-30T22:33:19 < nomorekaki> what are you obsessing over?
2023-10-30T22:33:28 < jbo> SSD1312
2023-10-30T22:33:59 < nomorekaki> sounds like rgb led or something
2023-10-30T22:34:01 < zyp> what's the issue?
2023-10-30T22:34:20 < jbo> only 1/4 of the display height (one page) seems to do more or less what I want. the other three pages are showing crap.
2023-10-30T22:34:52 < zyp> what res?
2023-10-30T22:34:57 < jbo> 128x64
2023-10-30T22:35:01 < jbo> 128x32  sorry
2023-10-30T22:35:44 < jbo> I2C interface - the interface is working. chip is ACK'ing and I got the initialization sequence from the module manufacturer. stuff shows up. I'm sending all 0x00 and then all 0xFF in a loop but only 1/4 of the display is actually doing that.
2023-10-30T22:36:54 < zyp> so 128x8 works or 32x32 works?
2023-10-30T22:37:28 < jbo> 128x8 seems to work
2023-10-30T22:38:06 < jbo> I'm doing page addressing mode which means taht for the 128x32 I would need 4 pages as one page is 8 pixels tall.
2023-10-30T22:39:15 < jpa-> meh, trying to find some reference to compare TEM cell sensitivity against
2023-10-30T22:39:32 < jpa-> for some reason only devices made by me emit a lot of EMI and all the commercial devices are almost silent
2023-10-30T22:39:39 < zyp> jbo, show some code
2023-10-30T22:40:34 < zyp> jpa-, well, you're presumably comparing to stuff that's already passed EMC testing
2023-10-30T22:41:09 < jbo> zyp, https://termbin.com/matq
2023-10-30T22:41:16 < jbo> zyp, flushing happens in gdisp_lld_flush()
2023-10-30T22:41:17 < jpa-> yeah.. but i can't find even the spikes that are visible in FCC reports
2023-10-30T22:41:29 < jbo> zyp, note: I am desperately changing stuff so it's a bit messy right now.
2023-10-30T22:42:34 < jbo> zyp, most likely missing some magic at line 184 and/or my framebuffer calculations are wrong
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--- Day changed ti loka 31 2023
2023-10-31T00:02:57 < antto> so, VCAP is the core voltage, there's two pins, they need a 2.2uF capacitor, the two pins don't need to be connected together on the board.. this is what i think
2023-10-31T00:03:25 < zyp> yep
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2023-10-31T01:04:20 < jbo> for fuck sacke
2023-10-31T01:08:32 < jbo> why does it work immediately (minus a few fucked up pixels) when I use STM32F4 CubeHAL instead of ChibiOS HAL
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2023-10-31T01:21:54 < mawk> yes nomorekaki 
2023-10-31T01:22:02 < mawk> and erasing means changing the master key record
2023-10-31T01:22:08 < mawk> very fast and destroys the data
2023-10-31T01:22:19 < mawk> although it's true more for ssds, for hard drives it might vary
2023-10-31T01:22:37 < mawk> jbo inspect memory
2023-10-31T01:22:42 < mawk> and see what's different 
2023-10-31T01:22:52 < mawk> you might have a volatile issue or some 
2023-10-31T01:22:57 < mawk> something like that*
2023-10-31T01:23:09 < mawk> do the IC ESD testing problem zyp it's very fun
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2023-10-31T06:36:38 < qyx> Milk-V Duo, what's that
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2023-10-31T09:36:56 < zyp> mawk, wouldn't it be something like n * levels**(1/n)? with some ceil() thrown in?
2023-10-31T09:37:14 < zyp> e.g. 2*100**(1/2) = 20 for the initial case
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2023-10-31T11:09:37 < karlp> qyx: another rsicv cvpu board: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005955687895.htm
2023-10-31T11:10:09 < karlp> somewhat like those allwinner and rockchip socs with ~64MB of ram on board, can run linux...
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2023-10-31T11:25:12 < zyp> not just on board, but in chip?
2023-10-31T11:28:47 < zyp> interesting part, apparently built in ethernet mac+phy as well
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2023-10-31T12:16:45 < jbo> hallo
2023-10-31T12:23:52 < ventYl> karlp: interesting stuff with RISCV is that they all seem to be able to run linux. their MPU is essentially a weird hybrid between MPU and MMU
2023-10-31T12:25:15 < karlp> plenty of riscv that doens't, just that there's quite a few around now that have the clocks and ram that mean you can.
2023-10-31T12:25:24 < karlp> and in packages more normally seen for mcus
2023-10-31T12:28:30 < ventYl> sure, you won't run much linux on 64kB of RAM
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2023-10-31T15:27:12 < Ecco> Altium q: Is it possible to generate a PCB footprint with a hatched surface?
2023-10-31T15:27:48 < Ecco> (like with polygon pours)
2023-10-31T15:37:22 < jpa-> but why
2023-10-31T15:39:07 < Ecco> Doing a footprint for a touch sensor
2023-10-31T15:39:31 < Ecco> the bottom layer is supposed to be a shield and ST recommends a hatched pattern
2023-10-31T15:39:56 < Ecco> they even say "a 10% hatched pattern", which I assume means "gaps are 10x larger than traces"
2023-10-31T15:47:17 < mawk> the answer is close to √(2·100) zyp , it's 14
2023-10-31T15:47:23 < mawk> 14 is good for up to 105 floors
2023-10-31T15:47:30 < mawk> or 105 levels
2023-10-31T16:20:40 < karlp> man, cpu overload here.  multiple different kinetis parts, tiva tm4c, esp32, infineon xmc4300, psoc6, older fm3, just soup
2023-10-31T16:23:27 < srk> mawk: are you into geometry as well?
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2023-10-31T16:34:17 < zyp> mawk, how so?
2023-10-31T16:38:16 < zyp> thinking through it again, I see I've got a couple of off by ones, so 18 or 19 should be doable, but I don't see how 14 is
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2023-10-31T16:46:43 < ventYl> karlp: no nordic? :(
2023-10-31T16:49:17 < karlp> not that I've seen.
2023-10-31T16:49:33 < karlp> looks like the board I'm going to be in charge of first is the first bluetooth.
2023-10-31T16:50:22 < karlp> kinda funny having makefiles that run cmake though, not the other way around :)
2023-10-31T16:52:00 < ventYl> boss said that you're going to use cmake but developers wanted to keep using make
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2023-10-31T16:54:55 < karlp> okay, figured out why vschonde wasn't _flashing_
2023-10-31T16:55:12 < karlp> the vscode config setups were all for "attach" not "launch"
2023-10-31T16:55:25 < karlp> and there was some extra custom task called "burn" that people were using instead.
2023-10-31T16:55:28 < karlp> ok. progress...
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2023-10-31T18:41:57 < mawk> zyp: 14, 27, 39, 50, 60, 69, 77, 84, 90, 95, 99, 102, 104, 105, 105
2023-10-31T18:42:30 < mawk> you try 14, if it doesn't break you try 27, if it doesn't break you try 39, and so on
2023-10-31T18:42:58 < mawk> if it breaks at 14 you have to try 1, 2, 3, …, 13 with the second IC so 14 tries total
2023-10-31T18:43:42 < mawk> if it breaks at 27 you have to try at 15, 16, …, 26 and you already tried at 14 so again 14 tries total 
2023-10-31T18:43:44 < mawk> and so on
2023-10-31T18:44:10 < mawk> 14+13 = 27, 27+12 = 39, 39+11 = 50, and so on
2023-10-31T18:44:44 < mawk> and you can see that 105 has to be the maximum possible target for 14 tries 
2023-10-31T18:45:06 < mawk> by starting with 14 tries allowed and thinking about what maximum level you can go to
2023-10-31T18:55:12 < mawk> if you have only n allowed tries, you have to start at level n, because if it fails you have to try 1, 2, 3, …, n-1 for n tries total
2023-10-31T18:56:34 < mawk> if it doesn't fail you're now at level n with n-1 tries remaining, so you throw at level n + (n-1) because if it fails you have to try n+1, n+2, …, n+(n-1)-1 with the remaining n-2 tries, and so on
2023-10-31T18:57:19 < mawk> so with n tries you can go up to level n + (n-1) + (n-2) + (n-3) + … + 2 + 1
2023-10-31T18:57:46 < mawk> and it turns out n = 14 goes up to 105 as 14×15/2 = 105
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2023-10-31T19:36:52 < Ecco> What are the drawbacks of a PCB antenna?
2023-10-31T19:37:40 < qyx> you can't buy it
2023-10-31T19:40:36 < mawk> you need to design it
2023-10-31T19:40:43 < mawk> or let some company do it for you
2023-10-31T19:40:45 < mawk> and pay money
2023-10-31T19:41:01 < mawk> use a ceramic antenna or a separate PCB antenna with a cable then it might be easier 
2023-10-31T19:41:50 < qyx> also you have to trim it afterwards
2023-10-31T19:42:08 < qyx> every time your manufacturing process changes
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2023-10-31T19:49:18 < BrainDamage> premade antennas also do interact by a decent degree with the pcb tho, which is why they have strongly recomended layouts. However, the antenna device being constant-ish means that the combined effect won't be pulled as much
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2023-10-31T20:18:23 < nomorekaki> Steffanx, qyx, karlp: https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lsQPvCnWiZxjVU3KHUQgnUgVN4BpgsNsQ
2023-10-31T20:23:43 < qyx> why the hell I cannot seek
2023-10-31T20:24:04 < qyx> and it turns off when going into background
2023-10-31T20:24:38 < nomorekaki> ah they have nerfed the music.* for free use
2023-10-31T20:25:21 < nomorekaki> does it work if you open another window and never minimize it?
2023-10-31T20:26:25 < qyx> it sounds like infected mushroom without steroids
2023-10-31T20:26:48 < BrainDamage> qyx: linux?
2023-10-31T20:27:14 < BrainDamage> qyx: mpv url, works on all youtube 100x better than youtube's own ui
2023-10-31T20:27:26 < qyx> loldroid
2023-10-31T20:27:41 < BrainDamage> ah, for that it's more pathological
2023-10-31T20:28:04 < BrainDamage> there are dedicated apps, or open it in a "real" browser
2023-10-31T20:28:04 < nomorekaki> mpv BrainDamage?
2023-10-31T20:28:08 < qyx> there were some firefoxaddon blocking some sort of js api to prevent it
2023-10-31T20:28:31 < qyx> even the real one (fennec) does that now
2023-10-31T20:28:50 < BrainDamage> nomorekaki: a video player that hooks on youtube-dl/yt-dlp, in practice it means it can play 99% of the sites you throw at it
2023-10-31T20:28:58 < nomorekaki> sweet
2023-10-31T20:29:05 < BrainDamage> ui is super bare bones, but the functionality is rock solid
2023-10-31T20:29:25 < qyx> mpv != mpd?
2023-10-31T20:29:33 < BrainDamage> mpv != mpd
2023-10-31T20:29:44 < BrainDamage> mpv is the successor to mplayer
2023-10-31T20:29:49 < qyx> oh
2023-10-31T20:29:52 < BrainDamage> without all the junk code, it uses ffmpeg now
2023-10-31T20:30:03 < Ecco> Thanks for your replies on PCB antennas :)
2023-10-31T20:30:05 < BrainDamage> and has lua scripting
2023-10-31T20:30:10 < srk> is there smpv like for smplayer?
2023-10-31T20:30:20 < Ecco> Would a ceramic antenna yield a higher range than a PCB antenna?
2023-10-31T20:30:25 < qyx> BrainDamage: that's -1, not a feature
2023-10-31T20:30:30 < qyx> Ecco: no
2023-10-31T20:30:31 < Ecco> Also, ceramic antennas are smaller than PCB ones, aren't they?
2023-10-31T20:30:41 < Ecco> qyx: ok, cool
2023-10-31T20:30:54 < BrainDamage> qyx: there's lot of cool plugins tho, like sponsorblock
2023-10-31T20:30:54 < qyx> as in, most probably no
2023-10-31T20:31:08 < Ecco> Also, i've read that PCB antennas are cheaper
2023-10-31T20:31:09 < BrainDamage> I get automated sponsor skip on youtube even for "in video" stuff
2023-10-31T20:31:17 < BrainDamage> like, when the author itself advertises
2023-10-31T20:31:20 < Ecco> but is that really the case? I mean, PCB space is not absolutely free
2023-10-31T20:31:39 < qyx> BrainDamage: how is that possible? how does it match adv parts of the video?
2023-10-31T20:31:56 < qyx> Ecco: ceramic antenna consumes pcb space too
2023-10-31T20:31:58 < BrainDamage> there's an online db that people submit entries or
2023-10-31T20:32:18 < BrainDamage> and the plugin can either interactively fetch for the current video, or batch download the db
2023-10-31T20:32:42 < BrainDamage> it's not perfect, but in my experience 90% of the stuff is on it
2023-10-31T20:32:44 < qyx> great,for every inbention there is a deinvention
2023-10-31T20:32:44 < BrainDamage> esp if it's famous
2023-10-31T20:33:07 < qyx> but there are videos I don't mind if there is an add
2023-10-31T20:33:24 < BrainDamage> it marks the sections like they were sort of chapters
2023-10-31T20:33:28 < BrainDamage> you can go back and not skip
2023-10-31T20:33:37 < BrainDamage> or skip manually to the end of the section
2023-10-31T20:33:44 < qyx> eg. those offroad wrecker guys usually advertise relatively good things and not so invasively
2023-10-31T20:33:46 < BrainDamage> there's a browser plugin too
2023-10-31T20:34:23 < qyx> but there are vids with this fu*king VPN providers with 5 minutes long talk about nothing
2023-10-31T20:34:25 < BrainDamage> https://sponsor.ajay.app/
2023-10-31T20:34:34 < mawk> nomorekaki every music of youtube music is also on youtube
2023-10-31T20:34:38 < BrainDamage> you can just make it mark the sections and not skip automatically
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2023-10-31T20:34:46 < mawk> so just replace music.youtube.com by www.youtube.com
2023-10-31T20:34:47 < nomorekaki> mawk: ik
2023-10-31T20:34:49 < BrainDamage> and then use that to manually skip to the end
2023-10-31T20:34:52 < mawk> and then people can listen to it
2023-10-31T20:35:01 < mawk> instead of giving the yt music link
2023-10-31T20:35:28 < nomorekaki> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lsQPvCnWiZxjVU3KHUQgnUgVN4BpgsNsQ
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2023-10-31T21:27:27 < Laurence_b> kek hes at it again https://www.jollyheretic.com/p/i-measured-oxford-students-skulls
2023-10-31T21:28:04 < Laurence_b> epic paywall fail
2023-10-31T21:30:29 < Laurence_b> kek https://nitter.net/jollyheretic/status/1714266724286316754#m
2023-10-31T21:36:02 < Laurence_b> emdrive guys really went wild
2023-10-31T21:37:58 < Laurence_b> lmao https://nitter.net/RaMansell
2023-10-31T21:59:45 < ventYl> hyperloop when?
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2023-10-31T22:31:55 < nomorekaki> Laurence_b: how is jubb?
2023-10-31T22:35:45 < Laurence_b> motor no worky
2023-10-31T22:35:53 < Laurence_b> there is 10kW going... somewhere
2023-10-31T22:36:23 < nomorekaki> inside the actual motor?
2023-10-31T22:36:35 < qyx> there is a squirrel inside
2023-10-31T22:36:47 < nomorekaki> that must be it
2023-10-31T22:37:20 < Laurence_b> lol
2023-10-31T22:37:31 < Laurence_b> its probably some sort of eddy current loss
2023-10-31T22:37:42 < Laurence_b> but my LCR meter is broken :(
2023-10-31T22:37:52 < qyx> Eddy the squirrel?
2023-10-31T22:38:30 < Laurence_b> currently trying to fix LCR meter, its got two stm32f205 and one tms320 inside, looks quite pro
2023-10-31T22:38:46 < Laurence_b> no sign of damage, think maybe someone fried it with a charged cap bank
2023-10-31T22:39:20 < Laurence_b> https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/lcr-meters/1752540?cm_mmc=UK-PLA-DS3A-_-bing-_-PLA_UK_EN_Catch+All-_-PPE,+Safety,+Test+%26+IT-_-1752540&matchtype=e&pla-4575480221734510&cq_src=google_ads&cq_cmp=554644865&cq_term=&cq_plac=&cq_net=o&cq_plt=gp&gclid=60f7a8eb396a1bcfc22ecdaa5c8d66ae&gclsrc=3p.ds&msclkid=60f7a8eb396a1bcfc22ecdaa5c8d66ae
2023-10-31T22:40:46 < Laurence_b> my plan is to dismantle motor and reassemble it, LCR testing at each stage to see when weird losses first appear
2023-10-31T22:41:39 < qyx> what rated kW is the motor?
2023-10-31T22:41:43 < Laurence_b> 500
2023-10-31T22:41:57 < qyx> and there is a loss of 10 kW?
2023-10-31T22:42:00 < qyx> that's not much
2023-10-31T22:42:18 < Laurence_b> everything else matches comsol to +-0.1%
2023-10-31T22:42:38 < Laurence_b> 2% unexplained loss is disaster zone
2023-10-31T22:43:16 < qyx> cannot you simply check what's overheating compared to the sim?
2023-10-31T22:43:47 < Laurence_b> its a bit hard to do as it needs cooling water supplied to run on dynameter
2023-10-31T22:44:26 < Laurence_b> I can see the excess loss on LCR, but my high quality LCR died today :(
2023-10-31T22:45:19 < Laurence_b> I think the lamination contractor screwed up tbh, looks like they applied too much pressure whilst autoclaving the stator, some layers seem to be shorting to each other
2023-10-31T22:45:46 < qyx> does it make that difference?
2023-10-31T22:45:57 < qyx> what commutating freq?
2023-10-31T22:46:24 < Laurence_b> yes, it uses 0.2mm thick sheets to get to ~98.5% efficiency, thicker sheets increase losses a lot
2023-10-31T22:46:29 < Laurence_b> up to 700Hz
2023-10-31T22:46:45 < qyx> and cannot you pin-point them with a needle of some sort and measure?
2023-10-31T22:47:22 < Laurence_b> yeah, but not conclusively, as there are bots through the stator pack that will short some layers at some points
2023-10-31T22:47:27  * qyx imagines Laurence_b measuring 0.2 mm laminations on a 1 meter long statos
2023-10-31T22:47:58 < Laurence_b> but the needle measurements seem to be inconsistent with just the expected bolt shorts
2023-10-31T22:48:37 < qyx> so the motor is 98.5% efficient?
2023-10-31T22:48:40 < qyx> should be
2023-10-31T22:48:43 < Laurence_b> yeah
2023-10-31T22:48:52 < qyx> a PM one?
2023-10-31T22:48:59 < Laurence_b> motor + inverter (SiC) should be 97%
2023-10-31T22:49:00 < Laurence_b> yeah
2023-10-31T22:49:12 < qyx> interesting
2023-10-31T22:49:40 < Laurence_b> currently its approx 94%, but inverter code could still be improved
2023-10-31T22:50:27 < qyx> so it is only 7.5 kW of loss, pretty easy to cool with water
2023-10-31T22:50:45 < Laurence_b> mechanically and magnetically the hardware should be capable of 1MW, but its very hard too cool the coils
2023-10-31T22:50:46 < Laurence_b> yeah
2023-10-31T22:51:08 < nomorekaki> depends how small spots that 10kw goes to
2023-10-31T22:51:13 < qyx> make them of a tiny copper capilars!
2023-10-31T22:51:51 < Laurence_b> I used silicone + aluminium nitride powder + glass fibre to lag the windings
2023-10-31T22:52:32 < Laurence_b> it was an experimental solution but worked really well, but the laminations are now the main source of delta T from coils to the water
2023-10-31T22:52:40 < qyx> are the windings made of copper wire or lamels?
2023-10-31T22:53:00 < Laurence_b> next prototype will use pyrolytic graphite layers in the stator
2023-10-31T22:53:17 < Laurence_b> copper wire but its rectangular cross section
2023-10-31T22:53:48 < qyx> litz rectangular or just a single solid core?
2023-10-31T22:53:49 < nomorekaki> interesting
2023-10-31T22:53:52 < Laurence_b> just single
2023-10-31T22:54:15 < Laurence_b> yeah its very hard to wind - we made an automated machine with lots of rollers and steppers
2023-10-31T22:55:09 < nomorekaki> you cannot just feed it but need to maintain orientation too
2023-10-31T22:55:20 < qyx> pls send me a 20 kW one for my tractor
2023-10-31T22:55:26 < nomorekaki> 1MW
2023-10-31T22:55:28 < Laurence_b> yeah it will twist to wrong axis if left to itself
2023-10-31T22:56:27 < Laurence_b> also you need really high tension on the wire to reduce springback when the winding is finished, if there is too much springback it causes cavities in the wrap
2023-10-31T22:56:36 < nomorekaki> qyx: with nissan / toyota / etc. diesel pick up van technology you would have a tractor already
2023-10-31T22:57:01 < Laurence_b> atm the wrap is manually applied, really messy yet costs about $100/litre
2023-10-31T22:57:38 < Laurence_b> aluminium nitride powder is expensive
2023-10-31T22:59:43 < Laurence_b> comsol says pyrolytic graphite layers will allow power to be ~doubled
2023-10-31T22:59:57 < nomorekaki> how so?
2023-10-31T23:00:15 < nomorekaki> mechanical or thermal limit?
2023-10-31T23:00:27 < Laurence_b> ~doubles the effective thermal conductivty of the stator
2023-10-31T23:01:05 < Laurence_b> we keep the wires at <150C to preserve the insulation
2023-10-31T23:01:39 < nomorekaki> is there binder for that pyrolytic thing?
2023-10-31T23:01:56 < Laurence_b> I'm not 100% sure
2023-10-31T23:01:59 < nomorekaki> also doesn't it conduct electricity too?
2023-10-31T23:02:05 < Laurence_b> yeah one risk is it could delaminate
2023-10-31T23:02:29 < Laurence_b> its actually less conductive than steel
2023-10-31T23:03:10 < qyx> https://www.amazon.com/Ceramabond-Aluminum-Nitride-Adhesive-Gallon/dp/B00C3N0ZIE
2023-10-31T23:03:12 < qyx> that price
2023-10-31T23:03:15 < BrainDamage> how do you bind the graphite?
2023-10-31T23:03:23 < Laurence_b> we might need to add kevlar thread to stop it debonding
2023-10-31T23:03:27 < BrainDamage> and won't vibrations be an issue?
2023-10-31T23:03:42 < nomorekaki> I assume it's in epoxy
2023-10-31T23:03:45 < Laurence_b> BrainDamage: there are off the shelf products designed for spartphone heatsinks etc
2023-10-31T23:04:18 < BrainDamage> chernobyl 2: the train
2023-10-31T23:04:35 < BrainDamage> when a graphite fire will spread pollutions over a 1000km track
2023-10-31T23:05:03 < Laurence_b> lol
2023-10-31T23:08:01 < qyx> lol
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2023-10-31T23:12:18 < Laurence_b> https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/AD0437144.pdf seems quite strong
2023-10-31T23:13:23 < nomorekaki> is it ever used in the purpose of stator wiring?
2023-10-31T23:16:14 < Laurence_b> yeah someone in leafland published a PhD on this idea
2023-10-31T23:16:35 < nomorekaki> how can it be made into non electrically conductive?
2023-10-31T23:17:19 < Laurence_b> it doesnt matter if it has some conductivity, as long as the layers are thin to break up eddy currents
2023-10-31T23:17:34 < Laurence_b> people have even used copper foil layers in stators before
2023-10-31T23:31:29 < nomorekaki> ah you mean the stator structure?
2023-10-31T23:34:00 < Laurence_b> yes
2023-10-31T23:37:43 < nomorekaki> is it layered only in one plane?
2023-10-31T23:38:38 < Laurence_b> yeah
2023-10-31T23:38:47 < nomorekaki> I thought nanocrystalline was the shit
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2023-10-31T23:42:07 < nomorekaki> I wonder what is magnetic permeability of such graphite stator
2023-10-31T23:43:37 < nomorekaki> I think it could be important
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--- Log closed ke marras 01 00:00:22 2023