--- Log opened ke marras 01 00:00:22 2023
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2023-11-01T00:14:42 < Laurence_b> nomorekaki: nano crystalline has lower losses but lower saturation field
2023-11-01T00:14:57 < nomorekaki> aah
2023-11-01T00:34:54 < Ecco> So, I still need to get a scope
2023-11-01T00:35:10 < Ecco> I'm leaning towards the new Rigol
2023-11-01T00:35:33 < Ecco> DHO802
2023-11-01T00:35:41 < Ecco> What do you guys think?
2023-11-01T00:35:55 < Ecco> I still wished I could get a cheap "USB-only" option
2023-11-01T00:36:16 < Ecco> but for some reason the scopes with a built-in screen seem to be cheaper than the ones that are just a capture card
2023-11-01T00:38:23 < Ecco> I'm still not quite sure about the 4 channels vs 2
2023-11-01T00:38:42 < Ecco> The only upside I see is that I could decode SPI, but I already have a $10 logic analyzer
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2023-11-01T11:22:35 < karlp> video will play after ad... => ad hangs...
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2023-11-01T13:27:54 < karlp> that's ok. altium web viewer is crashing ..... gnome-shell!
2023-11-01T13:29:58 < jpa-> sounds perfectly reasonable
2023-11-01T13:33:34 < mawk> how big is your peeceebee
2023-11-01T13:33:43 < mawk> altium viewer is always nice to me
2023-11-01T13:33:46 < mawk> just slow
2023-11-01T14:01:02 < karlp> I'm normally just looking at the schematics
2023-11-01T14:02:12 < karlp> 6 layer pcb, only 5 sch sheets.
2023-11-01T14:20:31 < zyp> imagine if you needed to separate the schematic into one sheet per layer
2023-11-01T14:36:05 < karlp> no, I just mean, the schematic isn't very complicated, they weren't meant to be taken together
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2023-11-01T15:40:11 < Ecco> So, do you guys have any recommendation for a cheap-yet-okay oscilloscope?
2023-11-01T15:40:22 < Ecco> What about the new Rigol DHO800 series?
2023-11-01T15:41:10 < Ecco> Is there any better alternative that's just a capture card? (I don't really see the point of having yet another screen on my bench, that's smaller and less powerful than my PC's)
2023-11-01T15:41:50 < englishman> neat
2023-11-01T15:42:17 < englishman> sure https://www.picotech.com/oscilloscope/2000/picoscope-2000-overview
2023-11-01T15:42:23 < englishman> real scopes are nice to have tho
2023-11-01T15:42:39 < englishman> also rigol really has a nice price
2023-11-01T15:47:45 < karlp> yah, dho900 looks nice, even cheaper than the mso5000
2023-11-01T15:47:58 < zyp> I hear the new rigols are nice
2023-11-01T15:48:14 < karlp> are they still hackable for more bandwidth?
2023-11-01T15:48:22 < karlp> i can't be arsed reading 50 pages of eevbog
2023-11-01T15:48:32 < zyp> no idea, but I'd be kinda surprised if not
2023-11-01T15:48:46 < zyp> could be nobody worked it out yet though
2023-11-01T15:49:38 < nohit> i think dave said in the review video that they are hackable
2023-11-01T15:55:29 < karlp> doesn't seem to have purchaseable "options" which would imply it though.
2023-11-01T15:59:22 < zyp> DHO4000 have purchaseable upgrades
2023-11-01T15:59:45 < zyp> DHO800/900 doesn't seem to
2023-11-01T16:00:25 < zyp> and seem to omit unused connectors in models with only two channels and without AWG
2023-11-01T16:00:40 < zyp> so there's not a lot to gain from a hack anyway
2023-11-01T16:01:24 < zyp> price difference between 914 and 924 is only 100€
2023-11-01T16:03:04 < zyp> DHO924S costs the same as I paid for MSO5072, 
2023-11-01T16:03:40 < zyp> but mine is effectively a MSO5354…
2023-11-01T16:22:32 < Ecco> englishman: the PicoScope 2000 is "just a capture card" yet it's more expensive than the Rigol DHO800 (for equal specs, 70MHz, 2 channels) :-/
2023-11-01T16:23:44 < Ecco> Are 4 channels really useful? I'm not sure why a lot of people say they are
2023-11-01T16:26:52 < jbo> Ecco, when I bought my scope (which I still use today) I was wondering the same thing.
2023-11-01T16:27:07 < Ecco> Yeah, that's most likely a very common question
2023-11-01T16:27:11 < Ecco> so, did you end up using 4 channels?
2023-11-01T16:27:17 < jbo> most of my friends did power electronics so three channels makes sense for them.
2023-11-01T16:27:24 < Ecco> (I assume you got a 4 channels one?)
2023-11-01T16:27:26 < jbo> Ecco, I bought one with 2 channels because I was a student and couldn't spend more than 2.5k
2023-11-01T16:27:30 < Ecco> oh ok :)
2023-11-01T16:27:35 < Ecco> So you still use a 2 channels one :)
2023-11-01T16:27:44 < jbo> yes
2023-11-01T16:27:46 < Ecco> Good :)
2023-11-01T16:27:50 < jbo> so...
2023-11-01T16:27:58 < jbo> obviously I would PREFER to have a 4ch one
2023-11-01T16:28:07 < Ecco> So, the "cheap" scope I'm looking at
2023-11-01T16:28:12 < jbo> but for what I do/did the past 15 years it was zero limitation.
2023-11-01T16:28:17 < Ecco> is $299 for 2 channels and $399 (I think) for four
2023-11-01T16:28:23 < jbo> I'd rather have a better quality/spec 2ch than a 4ch
2023-11-01T16:28:30 < Ecco> hmm, makes sense
2023-11-01T16:28:42 < jbo> 299$ wtf?
2023-11-01T16:28:45 < Ecco> also, I really don't have a lot of experience
2023-11-01T16:28:56 < Ecco> https://www.rigolna.com/products/rigol-digital-oscilloscopes/dho800/
2023-11-01T16:28:59 < jbo> idk I'm a fan of "buy once"
2023-11-01T16:29:13 < Ecco> well, me too, but I'm also not sure I'm going to use it
2023-11-01T16:29:22 < jbo> wtf is wrong with that scope pricing
2023-11-01T16:29:25 < Ecco> so sometimes it makes sens to "buy cheap first, if you use it then buy expensive"
2023-11-01T16:29:46 < Ecco> what do you mean?
2023-11-01T16:29:53 < jbo> it's literally 10% of my scope in cost
2023-11-01T16:29:58 < Ecco> Hahaha
2023-11-01T16:30:03 < jbo> and I don't have a fancy one
2023-11-01T16:30:05 < Ecco> Well, I mean, usually you get what you pay for
2023-11-01T16:30:10 < jbo> yeah
2023-11-01T16:30:11 < Ecco> so it's probably not as good in a lot of ways
2023-11-01T16:30:14 < jbo> so might be good enough for you.
2023-11-01T16:30:28 < jbo> Ecco, in this case, my recommendation would be: if you go ultra low-budget crap, get the 4ch one.
2023-11-01T16:30:30 < Ecco> Also, tech is evolving, so maybe it's just a matter of "it's newer"
2023-11-01T16:30:54 < jbo> nah, mine has like proper hybrid/ceramic stuff in it etc.
2023-11-01T16:31:06 < Ecco> ok! But then, what are the scenarios where you'd use 4 channels?
2023-11-01T16:31:45 < jbo> these cheap low/budget ones often like to flex with extra features like protocol decoders so you might want to look at some SPI
2023-11-01T16:31:51 < jbo> or motor control stuff
2023-11-01T16:32:03 < jbo> or power stage / amplifier stuff
2023-11-01T16:33:06 < jbo> if you waste money waste it properly :p
2023-11-01T16:33:09 < zyp> Ecco, yes, four channels are really useful
2023-11-01T16:33:34 < jbo> in my case the extra 2 channels would have cost another 1k USD
2023-11-01T16:33:55 < Ecco> job: hahaha :)
2023-11-01T16:34:01 < Ecco> (for the "properly waste money")
2023-11-01T16:34:34 < jbo> most oscilloscope probes cost more than that entire scope you're looking at
2023-11-01T16:36:55 < zyp> one thing I've using four channels for recently is monitoring both voltages and currents: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/qU1Bm.png
2023-11-01T16:37:05 < jbo> yeah, that ^
2023-11-01T16:37:25 < zyp> I bought a couple cheap current clamp probes for it, they're really handy when doing anything power stuff
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2023-11-01T16:38:45 < Ecco> oh, indeed
2023-11-01T16:39:01 < jbo> yeah in this price range no question - go 4ch IMHO
2023-11-01T16:40:28 < Ecco> zyp: would you mind sharing the probe's reference?
2023-11-01T16:40:45 < zyp> hantek cc-65
2023-11-01T16:41:00 < zyp> IIRC I paid just over $100 for two
2023-11-01T16:41:45 < zyp> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001776961743.html
2023-11-01T16:43:12 < Ecco> Oh, ok
2023-11-01T16:43:26 < Ecco> yes, those are standardized, so you don't *have* to buy from your scope's manufacturer
2023-11-01T16:43:31 < Ecco> Good, thanks!
2023-11-01T16:43:34 < zyp> only thing I don't like about them is that it's too easy to forget to turn them on and then they'll have an empty battery next time I want to use it
2023-11-01T16:43:40 < Ecco> oh, ok
2023-11-01T16:43:42 < zyp> turn them off*
2023-11-01T16:44:06 < Ecco> Is it a rechargeable battery or like AAs?
2023-11-01T16:44:09 < zyp> 9V
2023-11-01T16:44:27 < zyp> could probably put a rechargable 9V in it, haven't thought about that
2023-11-01T16:44:47 < Ecco> ok :)
2023-11-01T16:45:00 < Ecco> Unrelated question: I'm trying to toy around with a wireless STM32
2023-11-01T16:45:14 < Ecco> I'm in the process of reading a RF book, because, well, I kind of suck at it
2023-11-01T16:45:27 < Ecco> but in parallel I'm also designing a dev board
2023-11-01T16:45:43 < Ecco> which will most likely be far from perfect, but I think doing is a great way to learn
2023-11-01T16:46:02 < zyp> maybe I should build some auto shutoff circuit that cuts the battery if left on for too long
2023-11-01T16:46:04 < Ecco> so, as a step 1, of course I'm basing all my design off of a sample board from ST
2023-11-01T16:46:13 < Ecco> here's what they use for the antenna part
2023-11-01T16:46:14 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/ndJQyu1.png
2023-11-01T16:46:40 < Ecco> I have a bunch of questions: 1/ Many other sample schematics from ST use a separate, discrete filter
2023-11-01T16:47:36 < Ecco> (like this for example https://i.imgur.com/FYwtkHk.png)
2023-11-01T16:48:12 < zyp> SMA vs PCB antenna
2023-11-01T16:48:15 < Ecco> So first question: I assume, in the first image, that L2/C14 acts as a filter
2023-11-01T16:48:17 < zyp> plays into it
2023-11-01T16:48:44 < Ecco> why do they suddenly use discrete parts instead of a "built-in" filter in other schematics?
2023-11-01T16:48:52 < zyp> when you've got a PCB antenna, you typically want discrete filter passives so you can adjust them to impedance match the antenna
2023-11-01T16:49:03 < Ecco> oh
2023-11-01T16:49:09 < zyp> when you've got a SMA connector, you can expect it to already be at 50ohm impedance
2023-11-01T16:49:31 < Ecco> ok, I don't understand what you said 100%, but that is really helfup already
2023-11-01T16:49:43 < Ecco> (I understand that SMA = standardized, PCB = customized so needs tweaking)
2023-11-01T16:49:48 < Ecco> makes sense
2023-11-01T16:49:58 < Ecco> now, another (dumb) question
2023-11-01T16:50:02 < zyp> an antenna will be detuned by the geometry of stuff around it
2023-11-01T16:50:11 < jbo> it's also not uncommon to have a PI filter on an SMA but then simply 0R it.
2023-11-01T16:50:32 < zyp> for a PCB antenna, the size and shape of your ground plane matters a lot
2023-11-01T16:50:34 < Ecco> job: you lost me. PI = made of discrete parts ? 0R = ??
2023-11-01T16:50:40 < Ecco> ok, makes sense
2023-11-01T16:51:05 < Ecco> Ok, I guess my next question will help: regarding the "antenna matching" part. How are C12, L1 and C13 computed?
2023-11-01T16:51:12 < Ecco> I mean, without even talking about the formula
2023-11-01T16:51:13 < jbo> Ecco, https://i.imgur.com/Qu1WTMV.png
2023-11-01T16:51:15 < zyp> both the things you linked to are PI filters
2023-11-01T16:51:20 < Ecco> what do their values depend on
2023-11-01T16:51:31 < zyp> integrated or discrete doesn't matter
2023-11-01T16:51:32 < Ecco> jbo: ok, got the "0R" part :)
2023-11-01T16:51:52 < zyp> it's just that the caps and inductors looks like the letter pi :)
2023-11-01T16:52:01 < zyp> π
2023-11-01T16:52:03 < Ecco> Just googled it "A pi filter is a type of LC filter, where the LC filters are arranged to resemble the Greek letter “pi.”" -> ok, understood
2023-11-01T16:52:07 < Ecco> ok, makes total sense :)
2023-11-01T16:52:27 < Ecco> ok, so it's essentially a 3rd order LC filter
2023-11-01T16:52:29 < Ecco> ok, good
2023-11-01T16:52:46 < Ecco> but then (super dumb q sorry), how do we "tune" the filter
2023-11-01T16:52:47 < Ecco> ?
2023-11-01T16:52:56 < Ecco> Also it's called "antenna matching" in the example?
2023-11-01T16:53:00 < jbo> by changing the value of the L/C/R components
2023-11-01T16:53:18 < zyp> I don't know the math well, tuning is often done experimentally
2023-11-01T16:53:25 < Ecco> jbo: yeah yeah :) But how do we pick those values ? Based off of what criterias
2023-11-01T16:53:33 < zyp> i.e. you wire it up to a VNA, measure, adjust, measure again
2023-11-01T16:53:38 < Ecco> oh, ok
2023-11-01T16:53:47 < Ecco> kind of like the capacitors for crystal resonators?
2023-11-01T16:53:59 < jbo> nah, crystal loading caps are easy to calculate
2023-11-01T16:54:20 < Ecco> well, their value depends on the geometry of the PCB, doesn't it?
2023-11-01T16:54:27 < jbo> for RF matching you'd typically hook it up to a VNA as zyp mentioned
2023-11-01T16:54:51 < Ecco> what if I just copy the values from the sample schematics
2023-11-01T16:54:52 < Ecco> ?
2023-11-01T16:55:05 < jbo> then it will work well enough for most of what you'll be doing ;)
2023-11-01T16:55:06 < Ecco> Will it "kind of suck" or will it plain not work at all (because the PCB is going to be different)
2023-11-01T16:55:09 < Ecco> ok cool
2023-11-01T16:55:15 < zyp> here's from where I tuned a NFC antenna once: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/m0yyr.JPG
2023-11-01T16:55:16 < Ecco> Also, I'd rather use a ceramic antenna
2023-11-01T16:55:27 < Ecco> zyp: hahahaha :-D
2023-11-01T16:55:34 < zyp> just stacked caps until it looked reasonable enough on the VNA
2023-11-01T16:55:38 < Ecco> well, that works for caps
2023-11-01T16:55:50 < Ecco> I'd like to see you do something like that for inductors :-D
2023-11-01T16:56:06 < jbo> Ecco, when it comes to RF stuff the question is usually: do you need something that just works or something that works very well.
2023-11-01T16:56:14 < Ecco> hmm, makes sense
2023-11-01T16:56:23 < jbo> for most of what people like us do the former is easy to achieve. the latter is a lot of equipment & knowledge.
2023-11-01T16:56:30 < Ecco> ok, perfect
2023-11-01T16:56:42 < Ecco> I was afraid to build something that had like a nanometer range :)
2023-11-01T16:56:52 < zyp> maybe you should read up on smith charts…
2023-11-01T16:56:55 < Ecco> Obviously right now I don't care at all if the range kind of sucks
2023-11-01T16:57:02 < jbo> SoCs with RF outputs these days do a lot of black magic for you internally. so often it's just a matter of slapping on some 50R traces & antenna and it will work.
2023-11-01T16:57:23 < Ecco> yeah, I got a whole book ("RF circuits designs"), but I've yet to read it
2023-11-01T16:57:43 < zyp> a VNA will plot the impedance on a smith chart, and if you know what you're doing, you know which values to increase or decrease to move you in a given direction on the smith chart
2023-11-01T16:57:52 < Ecco> gotcha
2023-11-01T16:58:02 < zyp> (I don't, I just experiment)
2023-11-01T16:58:08 < Ecco> I guess it works too :)
2023-11-01T16:58:27 < Ecco> But then would using a ceramic antenna like this one https://abracon.com/datasheets/ACAG0201-2450-T.pdf
2023-11-01T16:58:32 < zyp> I don't do enough RF to justify learning it :)
2023-11-01T16:58:44 < Ecco> and ST's sample schematic https://i.imgur.com/ndJQyu1.png
2023-11-01T16:58:45 < jbo> if you have a SoC or RF module with an RF output meant to connect to an antenna you'll have a hard time fucking it up so hard that it won't work.
2023-11-01T16:58:54 < Ecco> would this work at least in a mediocre way?
2023-11-01T16:59:02 < Ecco> oh, ok :-D
2023-11-01T16:59:08 < jbo> zyp, funny that you'd say that. RF classes at university I handled exactly like that lol :D
2023-11-01T16:59:23 < jbo> Ecco, just copy the ST reference design and you'll be good.
2023-11-01T16:59:32 < Ecco> well, I've effed quite a lot of stuff in the past, even though I sorta-kinda knew what I was doing
2023-11-01T16:59:40 < Ecco> here, I'm really jsut about to copy-pasta
2023-11-01T16:59:51 < Ecco> jbo: cool. Even if I replace theyr PCB antenna with a ceramic one?
2023-11-01T17:00:12 < jbo> Ecco, the stuff that won't work 100% well is typically related to efficiency anyway (i.e. range, sensitity, ...) so even if you do a commercial product that you need to get certified it will work out.
2023-11-01T17:00:21 < zyp> don't copy the matching for the PCB antenna to the ceramic one :)
2023-11-01T17:00:40 < zyp> the ceramic antenna you linked specifies its own matching circuit, use that
2023-11-01T17:00:40 < jbo> Ecco, if you change to a ceramic antenna you'll need a different matching frontend
2023-11-01T17:00:46 < Ecco> zyp: dang. That's super obvious, yet I was about to do it the other way around
2023-11-01T17:00:50 < jbo> yeah, just listen to zyp.
2023-11-01T17:01:08 < Ecco> just because the specific MCU I'm using uses a PCB antenna in the reference board
2023-11-01T17:01:35 < Ecco> so, indeed I should just use the reference schematic from *another* chip that uses a ceramic antenna. Seems obvious in hindsight. Thanks.
2023-11-01T17:01:50 < Ecco> So more like this https://i.imgur.com/FYwtkHk.png
2023-11-01T17:01:52 < zyp> think of it like this; a standard antenna transmission line is 50 ohm characteristic impedance, so you can treat that as a common interface between different blocks
2023-11-01T17:01:57 < jbo> the MCU antenna pin will not care as long as you get it close to 50R impedance
2023-11-01T17:02:18 < jbo> zyp is consistently slightly faster than me, so I'll just go do something else :D
2023-11-01T17:02:21 < zyp> the radio on one end of the transmission line might need a matching network if the chip doesn't already do 50ohm natively
2023-11-01T17:02:22 < Ecco> :-D
2023-11-01T17:02:36 < zyp> and the antenna on the other end might also need a matching network to get to 50ohm
2023-11-01T17:03:07 < Ecco> ok
2023-11-01T17:03:28 < zyp> e.g. the stuff in the SMA example is probably what the radio end needs
2023-11-01T17:03:29 < Ecco> but then, what about those SMA antennas? They're *supposed* to come with a 50ohm impedence, right?
2023-11-01T17:03:36 < Ecco> yes, ok
2023-11-01T17:03:46 < zyp> yes, SMA itself is 50ohm characteristic impedance
2023-11-01T17:03:55 < Ecco> so thats why the PCB-antenna version has an extra L-C step?
2023-11-01T17:04:08 < zyp> possibly
2023-11-01T17:04:10 < Ecco> ok
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2023-11-01T17:04:45 < zyp> there might also be bandpass filtering, not matching
2023-11-01T17:04:59 < Ecco> so, as long as the chip antenna I'm using also has a 50ohm impedence, I can just drop it in place of the SMA connector, right?
2023-11-01T17:05:08 < Ecco> and it should work reasonnably well
2023-11-01T17:05:19 < zyp> that sounds reasonable, yes
2023-11-01T17:05:21 < Ecco> as in, def not perfect, but should allow to get me started
2023-11-01T17:05:23 < Ecco> ok good
2023-11-01T17:05:26 < Ecco> thanks guys!
2023-11-01T17:05:32 < Ecco> Of course I'll need to do some reading at some point
2023-11-01T17:14:07 < Ecco> here's the footprint of a chip antenna by TDK: https://i.imgur.com/d5zs6vU.png
2023-11-01T17:14:20 < Ecco> why does it have 2 pins?
2023-11-01T17:14:45 < Ecco> I mean, I understand that there's one input (I assume pin 4, "Feed point"). But then what's pin 1, "Radiator electrode"?
2023-11-01T17:15:44 < zyp> it's sort of a hybrid thing, part of the antenna is still the PCB geometry around it that you have to follow exactly for it to work properly
2023-11-01T17:15:53 < zyp> that's common for chip antennas
2023-11-01T17:15:57 < Ecco> oh
2023-11-01T17:16:08 < Ecco> so their antenna chip is more like an "antenna" chip
2023-11-01T17:17:10 < zyp> yeah, I think the purpose of that sort of things is rather a way to save area than a way to save complexity
2023-11-01T17:17:25 < Ecco> got it
2023-11-01T17:17:28 < zyp> if you're not short on area, you might as well go for a pure pcb antenna
2023-11-01T17:17:35 < Ecco> makes sense
2023-11-01T17:17:43 < Ecco> are there actual chip antennas then?
2023-11-01T17:18:01 < zyp> probably
2023-11-01T17:18:04 < Ecco> I mean, this one for instance
2023-11-01T17:18:05 < Ecco> https://abracon.com/datasheets/ACAG0201-2450-T.pdf
2023-11-01T17:18:14 < Ecco> has a "GND" pin and an input pin
2023-11-01T17:18:17 < Ecco> and that's it
2023-11-01T17:18:29 < Ecco> but it's indeed larger than 0603
2023-11-01T17:18:35 < jbo> that is your traditional ceramic chip antenna, yes.
2023-11-01T17:20:35 < zyp> I've seen this used in a couple of things: https://tools.molex.com/images/MSTD/2011June/SMDAntenna.pdf
2023-11-01T17:21:00 < karlp> jbo spent swiss gold to buy a fancy scope for no other reason than to spend money ;)
2023-11-01T17:21:34 < jbo> karlp, it's not a fancy scope by any means
2023-11-01T17:22:10 < karlp> zyp: oh, you got the current probes then, any opinions on them in real use? 
2023-11-01T17:22:32 < zyp> as I said, I like them except I forget to turn them off
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2023-11-01T17:28:16 < karlp> jbo: if you spent 2.5k and didn't get anything fancy,  you just burnt money then :)
2023-11-01T17:28:32 < karlp> zyp: yah, I was a bit deeper in the scroll than I thought, sorry for re-asking :)
2023-11-01T17:29:59 < karlp> my gut from the readong we did and some implementations is kinda like, your naiive PCB trace antenna will have a fairly flat normal curve of good/bad with errors, and a chip antenna will have a narrow curve.  it migh tbe better, but it's easier to fuck it up, as they are _super_ dependent on their surrounding planes, in not entirely obvious ways.
2023-11-01T17:30:14 < zyp> here they are in action in the fanuc controller: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/XWVBY.jpg https://bin.jvnv.net/file/7GyWv.jpg
2023-11-01T17:30:31 < jbo> karlp, it's a DOS-X 2022A (with some upgrades)
2023-11-01T17:30:37 < jbo> DSO-X *
2023-11-01T17:31:18 < karlp> yeah, you paid a "I've got swiss money to burn" premium for a keysight...
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2023-11-01T18:58:22 < mawk> I tried for several hours to solder a 27-pin ZIF connector with 0.3mm pitch
2023-11-01T18:58:41 < mawk> whenever I removed a solder bridge somewhere another one formed
2023-11-01T18:58:49 < mawk> because I just had a giant iron tip
2023-11-01T18:58:58 < mawk> but in the end it works
2023-11-01T18:59:04 < mawk> and I didn't even melt the plastic
2023-11-01T19:00:19 < PaulFertser> mawk: sequre s60
2023-11-01T19:00:36 < PaulFertser> And congrats! :)
2023-11-01T19:00:56 < PaulFertser> Giant tips are often not bad for drag soldering.
2023-11-01T19:01:32 < mawk> I couldn't solder the ancre points so I superglued the connector to the board
2023-11-01T19:01:43 < mawk> which is good enough I guess 
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2023-11-01T19:16:16 < PaulFertser> mawk: ask your boss to buy sequre s60, it's really nice for fine soldering and costs nothing in comparison to jbc pro micro.
2023-11-01T19:16:23 < PaulFertser> And can run IronOS too.
2023-11-01T19:27:52 < zyp> PaulFertser, oh, a PD iron that takes JBC tips? neat
2023-11-01T19:29:12 < zyp> I have an aixun t3b that I love and a TS80P that's less useful
2023-11-01T19:31:43 < PaulFertser> Yeah, TS80P has longer tips, not as great.
2023-11-01T19:32:29 < PaulFertser> JBC tips are really nice, and you can use a PD iron on the go with a power bank so yeah.
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2023-11-01T19:33:31 < PaulFertser> Those who want more power can consider Pinecil v2, with appropriate cable it does above 100 W. Also has BLE integrated so you can have live display and control from a smartphone from a web app :)
2023-11-01T19:34:17 < jpa-> you can also put a livestream on twitch and let the chatters decide your soldering iron temperature
2023-11-01T19:35:36 < PaulFertser> I like how Louis has DMM numbers on livestream so people not only follow but also give suggestions about the next thing to try during repairs :)
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2023-11-01T22:12:07 < PlasmaHH> Hi, I would like to hear some opinions about whats currently good working ways ( preferred open source ) to do runtime performance profiling on stm32 devices ( in the range of U5 and similar )...
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2023-11-01T22:19:58 < PaulFertser> PlasmaHH: I suggest you consider https://github.com/orbcode/orbuculum
2023-11-01T22:20:33 < PlasmaHH> PaulFertser: thats the one using etm tracing?
2023-11-01T22:20:51 < PaulFertser> PlasmaHH: no, can use SWO too
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2023-11-01T22:28:15 < PlasmaHH> PaulFertser: from a quick skim of the readme it is not clear to me if when using swo you would have to compile code with some kind of instrumentation... I have done a lot of stuff with etm tracing but had always the trouble of the bandwidth being too low
2023-11-01T22:28:56 < PaulFertser> PlasmaHH: I think for profiling alone the regular SWD communication is enough, you do not need any knd of tracing. With OpenOCD you can just generate a gprof file.
2023-11-01T22:29:40 < PaulFertser> Without instrumenting.
2023-11-01T22:30:16 < PlasmaHH> PaulFertser: hows that work internally? stopping the target regularily and looking where it is?
2023-11-01T22:30:53 < PaulFertser> PlasmaHH: by polling PCSR to get a set of random PC samples
2023-11-01T22:31:17 < PaulFertser> PlasmaHH: in general yes but for Cortex-M it's reading PCSR without stopping and that's pretty fast and non-intrusive.
2023-11-01T22:32:00 < PaulFertser> It's part of DWT register set
2023-11-01T22:32:01 < PlasmaHH> PaulFertser: ah, that sounds nice... might not be as detailed but certainly I could use something less intrusive than etm tracing ^
2023-11-01T22:32:45 < PaulFertser> Assuming you're already using OpenOCD you're all set to get a gprof file, yes.
2023-11-01T22:32:54 < PlasmaHH> guess I will try experimenting with getting some data into kcachegrind...
2023-11-01T22:35:28 < PlasmaHH> I am quite flexible with the tools to use... wanted to make the company try out the orbtrace mini too but the beauracracy of buying stuff was not happy with zyps webstore for german reasons *sigh*
2023-11-01T22:38:26 < PlasmaHH> (also cachegrind output is cool because my gdb plugin can read it )
2023-11-01T22:44:21 < zyp> PlasmaHH, would you like to work out another way to buy the stuff? you wouldn't be the first customer that insists on complicating stuff
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2023-11-01T22:49:41 < PlasmaHH> zyp: I really would like to give it another try, but first I have to work out how to order a pcb for assembly in my company, as the department desining our PCBs normally insists on that they redo the design for a panel instead of just giving me all information to make the panel on my own... I don't want to bother my middle management with more than one stupid issue at a time
2023-11-01T22:49:43 < zyp> I'm a «dear valued supplier» for one of the big ones, they spent weeks having me jump through hoops…
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2023-11-01T22:51:57 < PlasmaHH> zyp: I am not well versed in old german company bureaucracy but it seems like the issue is related to not indication of a "proper invoice" whatever that means in detail ( my guess is that its somewhat tax/vat related )
2023-11-01T22:52:58 < PlasmaHH> zyp: if you promise you won't be mad at me for sending them after you I can tell for the next try to contact you and tell you what they need
2023-11-01T22:54:26 < zyp> I'm a properly registered company so there shouldn't be any issue
2023-11-01T22:55:55 < zyp> shouldn't be a VAT issue, FWIW I'm VAT registered as well, but norwegian VAT doesn't apply to exports
2023-11-01T22:59:28 < ventYl> zyp: that seems to be aligned with EU VAT policy
2023-11-01T22:59:39 < ventYl> PlasmaHH: I am sorry for you
2023-11-01T23:00:22 < zyp> yeah, legal wise I comply with everything
2023-11-01T23:00:38 < PlasmaHH> zyp: *shrug* maybe they also want to insist on paying in euros, who knows ... I am pretty new there and for most stuff I ask other people to just buy it for me through whatever channels they already established ;)
2023-11-01T23:00:40 < ventYl> I mean the norwegian VAT not applying to exports
2023-11-01T23:00:40 < zyp> I'm not IOSS registered, but that doesn't apply to business transactions anyway
2023-11-01T23:00:56 < zyp> sure, I have a euro receiving account even
2023-11-01T23:00:58 < ventYl> that's common practice in EU
2023-11-01T23:01:19 < ventYl> I've been invoicing to Germany without VAT too
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2023-11-01T23:03:35 < PlasmaHH> ventYl: could be worse, at least I am allowed to buy all kinds of stuff
2023-11-01T23:03:45 < ventYl> well, it could
2023-11-01T23:04:57 < ventYl> you could end up in the slaughterhouse of the german automotive industry
2023-11-01T23:05:02 < PlasmaHH> and my position is explicitly for improving all kinds of stuff so I can officially pester the hell out of people and their complaints go nowhere ;)
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2023-11-01T23:06:10 < ventYl> that sounds suspicious already
2023-11-01T23:07:51 < PlasmaHH> there is a saying that those kinds of companies are like heavy steamboats, slow to turn, but once it started, they will keep doing it... 
2023-11-01T23:09:28 < ventYl> I'd probably compare some of them to Graf Zeppelin
2023-11-01T23:09:47 < PlasmaHH> the guy or the airship? ^^
2023-11-01T23:09:54 < ventYl> airship
2023-11-01T23:10:03 < PlasmaHH> hopefully not going up in flames so easily ;)
2023-11-01T23:10:21 < ventYl> my humble opinion is that in most of the german automotive the roof is already on fire
2023-11-01T23:10:36 < ventYl> and Feuerwerh are nowhere around
2023-11-01T23:11:03 < PlasmaHH> yeah, it seems like that, met quite a few people fleeing from chaotic places...
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2023-11-01T23:12:31 < PlasmaHH> but I think I landed at a fun place... somewhat slow industry, quite a bit time to be creative, quickly started to make changes...
2023-11-01T23:14:34 < ventYl> well, hopefully you won't hear that something cannot be changed for "historical reasons" or that "you were doing it like this for 15 years already"
2023-11-01T23:16:01 < PlasmaHH> well, when it comes to internal communications protocols, obviously ;) but for all kinds of other stuff, talking the right way to the right people seems to indicate that a lot were just waiting for someone to make the change, either because they did not have the time/willpower or knowledge... 
2023-11-01T23:17:46 < PlasmaHH> just like today I went down the rabbit hole of getting information on why our multimeters were only calibrated in a certain (limited) range and the answer was "well, we had a big meeting 20 years ago and decided it there and since then nobody wanted any change" followed by a plan to get together people to change it ...
2023-11-01T23:18:22 < ventYl> so German
2023-11-01T23:22:59 < PlasmaHH> unfortunately I was too late to the game to influence the newest product in development to use a bigger package...
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2023-11-01T23:23:29 < PlasmaHH> zyp: who is the main person doing the orbtracer mini design?
2023-11-01T23:24:05 < ventYl> PlasmaHH: why is changing package being an issue?
2023-11-01T23:24:27 < zyp> PlasmaHH, me
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2023-11-01T23:24:41 < PlasmaHH> ventYl: because then everything has to be moved around and rerouted ( plus its a bit more expensive )
2023-11-01T23:25:36 < zyp> I've only done minor work on the PC side analysis suite
2023-11-01T23:26:31 < ventYl> PlasmaHH: that's like a week worth of work I guess?
2023-11-01T23:26:54 < PlasmaHH> zyp: ah nice. I haven't had a look at it in detail at all... I was wondering if it would be feasible to change the design a bit to provide power to the DUT and sample the current (precisely and fast) as well as doing some optional pullup trickery to trace code+power consumption for correlation
2023-11-01T23:27:28 < zyp> already supported, except the precisely and fast part
2023-11-01T23:27:57 < PlasmaHH> ventYl: a bit more, we have certain special requirements but yeah, its a bit of work and the em testing was already done on the smaller package so "just for being able to better debug things" nobody wants to spend time
2023-11-01T23:28:12 < qyx> zyp: :D
2023-11-01T23:28:53 < ventYl> PlasmaHH: aren't you going to do EMC testing after each software release anyway?
2023-11-01T23:30:02 < zyp> PlasmaHH, there's a dual channel programmable regulator for providing power to the target (both vtref and vtpwr), and each channel has the voltage and current (voltage drop across a 1R shunt) measured by a TLA2024
2023-11-01T23:30:02 < PlasmaHH> ventYl: yes, but not the full re-certification 
2023-11-01T23:31:15 < ventYl> PlasmaHH: ok, let's tackle it from the other side. why is the smaller package an issue?
2023-11-01T23:33:45 < PlasmaHH> zyp: yeah, thats a bit on the slow end... I was thinking of more in the 1MS/s range... would beat something like the segger jtrace by far ... (where the setup is broken in various ways, starting with them only being able to provide 5V over to dropping ranges of samples, not being able to properly correlate and their 100k is effecitvely 50k because each sample is doubled ) ... 
2023-11-01T23:33:53 < PlasmaHH> plus it could feature an external non-measured pullup mode
2023-11-01T23:34:17 < PlasmaHH> ventYl: all pins are used and I would like at least 5 more for tracing
2023-11-01T23:34:48 < zyp> hmm, current measurement capability would be at around 1kS/s with a resolution of 0.125mA if I'm mathing right
2023-11-01T23:35:03 < zyp> so it's not competing with e.g. a joulescope
2023-11-01T23:35:31 < PlasmaHH> yeah TLA2024 can do like 3.3kS/s
2023-11-01T23:36:02 < zyp> if it's a joulescope you really need, you should get one, it's great :)
2023-11-01T23:36:21 < zyp> I've been doing a bunch of low power work with it at work
2023-11-01T23:37:09 < PlasmaHH> zyp: the problem isn't to see the transient power consumption, the problem is to precisely correlate it with code in an easy way
2023-11-01T23:38:46 < zyp> it has digital IO for syncing up stuff
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2023-11-01T23:39:55 < PlasmaHH> with my current "flying wire" setup doing some external pullup on the trace lines I can already sometimes (if ozone decides to work in that one out of 20 cases ) see how for like a 300µs window there is an increase in 900µA caused by certain code and so on...
2023-11-01T23:42:05 < ventYl> PlasmaHH: and are there any goals / limits you are already violating or is all the effort just "lets try to improve random things" ?
2023-11-01T23:42:51 < PlasmaHH> ventYl: not sure what you mean, is that a question for if I need tracing at all?
2023-11-01T23:43:35 < ventYl> PlasmaHH: more like why you need that tracing. do you want tracing just to make some general improvement, or it is needed because software underperforms?
2023-11-01T23:44:17 < Ecco> The antenna matching network I'm looking at in the sample doc uses 0.3pF caps
2023-11-01T23:44:25 < Ecco> That's… very low. And actually hard to find in larger packages
2023-11-01T23:44:31 < PlasmaHH> Ecco: aka traces? 
2023-11-01T23:44:36 < Ecco> PlasmaHH: Yeah, I know…
2023-11-01T23:44:44 < Ecco> Seriously tho
2023-11-01T23:45:02 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/g6amk6n.png
2023-11-01T23:45:34 < PlasmaHH> ventYl: the major task is to more precisely correlate power consumption with code being run, then there is also cases where tracing makes debugging things so much more convenient ( like that once case where the chip locked up and had to be power cycled ), plus a few places in software where we would really like to see more of whats going on to figure out how much headroom we have for adding featur
2023-11-01T23:46:18 < PlasmaHH> Ecco: sounds to me like those fall off some simulation
2023-11-01T23:47:23 < ventYl> PlasmaHH: do you used literally each pin and you can no longer connect the debugger?
2023-11-01T23:47:41 < PlasmaHH> ventYl: I can use SWD but no SWO or event ETM tracing
2023-11-01T23:47:47 < PlasmaHH> *even
2023-11-01T23:55:16 < qyx> zyp: what arrangement of power pins are you using? vbus=a1,a2,a3,a4... GND=b1,b1,b3,b4...
2023-11-01T23:55:41 < qyx> or vbus=a1,b1,a2,b2, GND=a3,b3,a4,b4..?
2023-11-01T23:55:55 < ventYl> PlasmaHH: so you have a task that is almost impossible to achieve?
2023-11-01T23:56:38 < zyp> qyx, for pcie?
2023-11-01T23:56:45 < zyp> pcie-ish*
2023-11-01T23:56:45 < PlasmaHH> ventYl: for that product, yes, unless some other changes make it necessary to switch to the bigger package, which of course means that for all kinds of problems my default suggestion now is to switch it ;)
2023-11-01T23:57:10 < qyx> PlasmaHH: ventYl is probably asking about your motivation in the sense "our calculated battery run time is 4 years, our marketing wants 5 years, I have to optimise -20% of power usage"
2023-11-01T23:57:33 < qyx> zyp: zes
2023-11-01T23:58:03 < qyx> the first is good for 2L, the second for 4L+
2023-11-01T23:58:05 < ventYl> PlasmaHH: now that sounds like German automotive
2023-11-01T23:58:43 < zyp> qyx, neither, apparently
2023-11-01T23:58:48 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/nV6sp/testrack_carrier.pdf
2023-11-01T23:59:04 < zyp> it's a low power system so I'm only using a single pin for power
2023-11-01T23:59:18 < zyp> grounds are opposed like your second scheme
2023-11-01T23:59:28 < zyp> and that's what I'd use for a high power system too
2023-11-01T23:59:54 < zyp> to utilize both sides of the via dumping it into inner planes
2023-11-01T23:59:56 < qyx> to easily go into inside planes?
--- Day changed to marras 02 2023
2023-11-02T00:00:01 < qyx> inner
2023-11-02T00:00:34 < qyx> k, so the reasoning is ok
2023-11-02T00:00:36 < qyx> thanks
2023-11-02T00:03:15 < PlasmaHH> qyx: well, we don't do anything with batteries, but if we translate it to "over the power budget" for that particular budget we are not over it but basically at 100% at some times, and maybe or maybe not adding new features will cause it to go over
2023-11-02T00:03:41 < karlp> PaulFertser: huh, that s60p looks nice.  sequare also sells that bc1 tip too.
2023-11-02T00:04:28 < zyp> looks nice
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2023-11-02T00:08:47 < karlp> I have no real... use for one,but it's nice :)
2023-11-02T00:10:27 < zyp> yeah, it's still not gonna replace a t3b
2023-11-02T00:10:44 < zyp> but I'm tempted to replace the TS80P with it
2023-11-02T00:10:58 < zyp> just kinda hard to justify since I almost never use the TS80P
2023-11-02T00:12:49 < zyp> also, clone jbc tweezers when?
2023-11-02T00:15:58 < karlp> yeah, id on't have a ts80 or ts100, just the t3b.
2023-11-02T00:20:33 < mawk> we have ts80 at the office 
2023-11-02T00:20:36 < mawk> but it's way underpowered 
2023-11-02T00:20:44 < mawk> as soon as there's even a small ground plane it can't heat
2023-11-02T00:20:49 < mawk> from usb c
2023-11-02T00:21:03 < mawk> maybe with the barrel jack psu with 15 extra watts it'd be a bit better
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2023-11-02T00:27:03 < mawk> in how many different ways can you combine numbers ≤ 2000 such that their sum is divisible by 5? using at most one of each number
2023-11-02T00:27:41 < mawk> a naive algorithm for that would not terminate before the end of the universe 
2023-11-02T00:30:23 < PlasmaHH> i.e. tomorrow?
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2023-11-02T00:34:21 < mawk> the universe will not terminate tomorrow
2023-11-02T00:34:30 < mawk> the naive algorithm has 2^2000 combinations to try
2023-11-02T00:34:46 < PlasmaHH> we'll see
2023-11-02T00:36:30 < mawk> I'll be misericordious and allow just the last 4 digits
2023-11-02T00:36:51 < mawk> try it zyp it's very fun
2023-11-02T00:36:52 < mawk> maybe
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2023-11-02T00:53:57 < Laurence_b> orbital sides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Cyborg_Manifesto
2023-11-02T00:54:10 < Laurence_b> emdrive for feminists
2023-11-02T00:55:43 < ventYl> mawk: will it be somewhere around 2000/5^2 - 2000/10 ?
2023-11-02T00:55:58 < ventYl> (2000/5)^2 to be precise
2023-11-02T00:56:01 < mawk> no it's much bigger than that
2023-11-02T00:56:27 < mawk> we are counting every way to add together numbers from 1 to 2000, using at most one of each, so that the sum is a multiple of 5
2023-11-02T00:56:55 < ventYl> yeah, but you can do it other way around
2023-11-02T00:57:00 < mawk> so you can do 0, 5, 10, 15, …, but also 1+4, 2+3, 1+2+7, …
2023-11-02T00:57:08 < mawk> so there's a lot of them
2023-11-02T00:57:15 < ventYl> ah, not just two of them
2023-11-02T00:57:20 < Laurence_b> >Valerie Hartouni argues, "most reproductive technologies have assimilated into the 'order of nature'"[27] which would make Haraway's vision of a regenerative species, unrestricted by heteronormative conceptions of reproduction, unattainable in the sonographic fetus.
2023-11-02T00:57:26 < mawk> approximately it will be fairly close to 2^2000/5
2023-11-02T00:57:40 < mawk> because the remainder mod 5 of the sums can be thought of as fairly random
2023-11-02T00:57:47 < mawk> and there are 2^2000 ways to make the sums
2023-11-02T00:57:57 < ventYl> I assumed that it is just sum of two numbers
2023-11-02T01:00:14 < mawk> for two numbers there are 2000×1999/2 sums to check
2023-11-02T01:00:21 < mawk> and around a fifth will be multiple of 5
2023-11-02T01:00:39 < mawk> so around 2000²/10
2023-11-02T01:02:17 < zyp> mawk, give me a few minutes and I'll have your answer
2023-11-02T01:02:33 < mawk> 2^2000 minutes?
2023-11-02T01:03:06 < zyp> haha, no
2023-11-02T01:09:49 < zyp> mawk, 
2023-11-02T01:09:49 < zyp> 22962613905485090484656664023553639680446354041773904009552854736515325227847406277133189726330125398368919292779749255468942379217261106628518627123333063707825997829062456000137755829648008974285785398012697248956323092729277672789463405208093270794180999311632479761788925921124662329907232844394066536268833781796891701120475896961582811780186955300085800543341325166104401626447256258352253576663441319799079
2023-11-02T01:09:55 < zyp> 283625404355971680808431970636650308177886780418384110991556717934409897816293912852988275811422719154702569434391547265221166310540389294622648560061463880851178273858239474974548427800576
2023-11-02T01:10:13 < zyp> or subtract one if you don't count 0 as a multiple of 5
2023-11-02T01:19:14 < zyp> mawk, is this correct?
2023-11-02T01:24:47 < zyp> as far as I've figured out, f(0) = 1 since 0 is a multiple of 5, and f(n) = f(n-1) * 2 - (2**ceil(n/5) if n%5 in {1,2} else 0)
2023-11-02T01:25:08 < zyp> which makes it easy enough to compute f(2000)
2023-11-02T01:25:41 < zyp> sorry, that should be floor(), not ceil()
2023-11-02T01:27:26 < mawk> the answer should be very close to 2^2000/5
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2023-11-02T01:27:43 < mawk> the actual answer is 2^2000/5 + 4·2^400/5
2023-11-02T01:27:59 < mawk> if your number has around 600 digits it could be that
2023-11-02T01:29:15 < mawk> if it's that congrats, I didn't figure out a simple way to do it
2023-11-02T01:29:23 < mawk> I used complex numbers and generating function 
2023-11-02T01:29:33 < zyp> your answer doesn't count 0, so it's one less than mine
2023-11-02T01:29:59 < zyp> >>> answer - (2**2000 // 5 + 4 * 2**400 // 5)
2023-11-02T01:30:00 < zyp> 1
2023-11-02T01:30:28 < mawk> if you expand the polynomial (1+x)(1+x²)(1+x³)(1+x⁴)…(1+x²⁰⁰⁰) and sum the coefficients of x⁰, x⁵, x¹⁰, …
2023-11-02T01:30:36 < mawk> my answer should count 0, in theory
2023-11-02T01:30:58 < mawk> hhhm no it doesn't 
2023-11-02T01:31:06 < mawk> I took numbers from 1 to 2000
2023-11-02T01:31:13 < zyp> ha
2023-11-02T01:31:21 < mawk> because with zero it's tricky
2023-11-02T01:31:30 < mawk> you can do 0, 0+5, 0+10, 0+15, …
2023-11-02T01:31:53 < mawk> so you multiply the answer by 2 actually if you want to add zero, and then add one
2023-11-02T01:32:13 < mawk> or just multiply by 2 I guess 
2023-11-02T01:34:37 < mawk> where did the -2**floor(n/5) come from?
2023-11-02T01:35:26 < mawk> if n is a multiple of 5 I guess it's obvious that the number of ways will double as you can just add n to the previous ones
2023-11-02T01:36:40 < zyp> so here's my python session: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/iBVUi
2023-11-02T01:36:51 < zyp> db5 is the naive approach
2023-11-02T01:37:37 < zyp> and here's what I got from the naive approach: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/LHw5h.png
2023-11-02T01:38:01 < mawk> so just looking at the numbers you deduced the difference to subtract?
2023-11-02T01:38:25 < zyp> yeah, from the pattern in the third column
2023-11-02T01:39:52 < zyp> third column is (f(n-1) - f(n)) % f(n-1)
2023-11-02T01:40:06 < zyp> or I guess effectively f(n-1) * 2 - f(n)
2023-11-02T01:40:19 < mawk> right
2023-11-02T01:40:27 < mawk> so now we have to figure out a proof why it works
2023-11-02T01:40:38 < mawk> I guess base 2 is natural since that's how you enumerate all possible sums
2023-11-02T01:40:47 < zyp> well, initially it's easy
2023-11-02T01:41:07 < zyp> 1 and 2 can't form a multiple of 5 alone in combination
2023-11-02T01:41:32 < zyp> hence f(1) and f(2) are both 1*2 - 1
2023-11-02T01:42:20 < mawk> my proof is calling f(z) = (1+z)(1+z²)(1+z³)(1+z⁴)…(1+z²⁰⁰⁰) = a[0] + a[1]z + a[2]z² + …; and then I computed f(1) + f(ζ) + f(ζ²) + f(ζ³) + f(ζ⁴) which turns out to be exactly 5 times the number we're looking for; with ζ = exp(2iπ/5)
2023-11-02T01:42:25 < mawk> yeah
2023-11-02T01:43:23 < mawk> 1+ζ+ζ²+ζ³+ζ⁴ = 0 is the defining property of ζ, and all coefficients that are coprime with 5 will magically disappear
2023-11-02T01:46:59 < zyp> mawk, oh, wait, I'm not adding 0
2023-11-02T01:47:17 < zyp> I'm talking about the case where no numbers are added
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2023-11-02T01:47:45 < mawk> when n = 5q+r, you're doing f(n) = 2f(n-1) - 2^q if r = 1, 2; and 2f(n-1) otherwise 
2023-11-02T01:47:56 < mawk> ah
2023-11-02T01:48:00 < mawk> yeah the empty sum
2023-11-02T01:48:01 < zyp> i.e. sum([]) % 5 == 0
2023-11-02T01:48:03 < mawk> there's exactly one of these
2023-11-02T01:48:15 < zyp> yes
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2023-11-02T01:48:19 < zyp> I count that, you don't
2023-11-02T01:48:22 < zyp> hence the one off
2023-11-02T01:49:40 < mawk> weird, I didn't subtract anything; since 0 is not coprime with 5 the a[0] term doesn't disappear 
2023-11-02T01:50:05 < mawk> I'd compute the sums for other than 5 to check but it might be harder than with 5
2023-11-02T01:50:09 < mawk> since 5 is nicely prime
2023-11-02T01:50:22 < mawk> and there are a lot of sums to compute
2023-11-02T01:51:03 < mawk> 2 001 001 different possible sums
2023-11-02T01:52:44 < mawk> I guess with a FFT it wouldn't be that horrible to work out 
2023-11-02T01:52:52 < mawk> but not sure if it can be exact
2023-11-02T01:53:59 < mawk> we are convolving [1, 1, 0, …], [1, 0, 1, 0, …], [1, 0, 0, 1, 0, …]
2023-11-02T01:54:04 < mawk> and so on
2023-11-02T01:54:27 < mawk> and looking at the sum of all terms of index multiple of five
2023-11-02T01:54:30 < mawk> when you think about it
2023-11-02T01:54:50 < mawk> and convolution becomes a simple multiplication
2023-11-02T01:56:28 < mawk> the expression for other primes will be quite similar to what I gave 
2023-11-02T01:56:49 < mawk> except for a few crumbs because 2000 was divisible by 5 so everything worked out
2023-11-02T01:57:12 < mawk> we'll have a floor somewhere in the formula I guess
2023-11-02T01:57:37 < mawk> for non primes that's when it becomes interesting
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2023-11-02T10:21:38 < Steffanx> Yes agreed 
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2023-11-02T10:52:09 < Laurence_b> https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ec02d8a06ca8fe7b3fb2da33d7508e7461b35e6a9120f36ba9230f37323b62fa.jpg?w=800&h=523
2023-11-02T10:52:40 < Laurence_b> behold, the brit
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2023-11-02T12:32:26 < mawk> zyp for multiples of 6 I get (2^2000 + 2^667)/6
2023-11-02T12:33:03 < mawk> and for multiples of 7 it's (2^2000 + 3·2^285)/7
2023-11-02T12:33:25 < mawk> I'm trying to work out an expression for all primes but it's tricky 
2023-11-02T12:34:33 < mawk> aI have an expression but it involves a sum of products of complex numbers
2023-11-02T12:36:17 < mawk> it's (2^2000 + 2^q  ΣΠ(1+ζ^(nk)))
2023-11-02T12:37:09 < mawk> where 2000 = pq + r, p being the prime number we chose
2023-11-02T12:38:17 < mawk> and the sum is of 1 ≤ n ≤ p-1 and the product 1 ≤ k ≤ r
2023-11-02T12:38:43 < mawk> python can compute thet pretty easily 
2023-11-02T12:42:22 < srk> python or sympy? :D
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2023-11-02T14:25:04 < mawk> just python
2023-11-02T14:25:20 < mawk> it can do complex 
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2023-11-02T15:59:14 < karlp> well, this was fun to find: https://github.com/containers/podman/issues/15930
2023-11-02T15:59:20 < karlp> hooray selinux to the (not)rescue again
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2023-11-02T17:09:27 < Ecco> In Altium, if a footprint has a keepout, is it possible to exempt the footprint's own stuff (eg pads) from said keepout?
2023-11-02T17:09:49 < Ecco> I'd like to express "The footprint itself is fine, but nobody *else* should put crap in that area"
2023-11-02T17:10:03 < karlp> awesome, baby's first hardfault on cm0.
2023-11-02T17:10:22 < karlp> release mode "works", but everything is inlined somehow and I can't hit any breakpoints.
2023-11-02T17:10:31 < karlp> debug mode hardfaults on startup :)
2023-11-02T17:14:37 < t4nk_fn> MAN... what a Horrific load of rubbbiish this stm32cubeide is :|
2023-11-02T17:15:09 < mawk> why
2023-11-02T17:15:16 < mawk> it's just an eclipse ide
2023-11-02T17:15:21 < t4nk_fn> "let's quickly debug this" turns into a horrific fight
2023-11-02T17:15:23 < mawk> it works reasonably well
2023-11-02T17:15:33 < mawk> you're doing it wrong most likely 
2023-11-02T17:15:37 < t4nk_fn> took me ages to get it all right
2023-11-02T17:15:47 < mawk> the only thing I don't like is that you need the ide to build
2023-11-02T17:15:52 < mawk> even from commandline
2023-11-02T17:16:15 < mawk> I had to build my own docker container with java and stm32cubeide inside to do CI builds
2023-11-02T17:16:27 < t4nk_fn> these stlink-clones also didn't help much
2023-11-02T17:17:40 < t4nk_fn> but yeah, I did actually prefer this thing 'because it was so easy to get started'
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2023-11-02T17:30:25 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/yGgnJHK.png
2023-11-02T17:30:31 < Ecco> This is how ST routed a linear touch sensor
2023-11-02T17:31:00 < Ecco> Question: why did they bother with via? They could very easily have connected the leftmost and rightmost sensors with a trace at the bottom
2023-11-02T17:41:21 < ventYl> autorouter?
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2023-11-02T18:03:20 < Ecco> well, I don't know. I mean, supposedly the touch sensor thing is very sensitive about how it's routed
2023-11-02T18:03:28 < Ecco> so I kind of hope they did it manually
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2023-11-02T18:05:39 < karlp> meh, ozone doesn't find the jlink?! such pro software
2023-11-02T18:15:27 < nomorekaki> sounds like linux problem
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2023-11-02T18:21:11 < nomorekaki> karlp: are you linuxing?
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2023-11-02T19:14:28 < jpa-> Ecco: it's not like they drill the vias by hand, so not much to bother with
2023-11-02T19:14:51 < jpa-> i think they expect the user's finger to be near the bottom, so it's not a good idea to have traces there
2023-11-02T19:15:59 < jpa-> also probably want to have roughly equivalent capacitance between everything
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2023-11-02T22:26:56 < PlasmaHH> I swear one day I will use the mpu to block access to the registers in this project... </rant>
2023-11-02T22:44:21 < jpa-> why?
2023-11-02T22:45:04 < Steffanx> He doesn't trust himself with it.
2023-11-02T22:45:34 < Steffanx> Do you Mr jpa-?
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2023-11-02T22:47:49 < PlasmaHH> jpa-: because its really hard to debug when the application again choses to randomly read some registers there and the device locks up and has to be power cycled...
2023-11-02T22:49:35 < PaulFertser> PlasmaHH: do you not have SWD access to it?
2023-11-02T22:50:04 < PlasmaHH> PaulFertser: I do, but when the device locks up, swd can't help either
2023-11-02T22:50:58 < PaulFertser> PlasmaHH: hm, that's strange, so the connection to SWD is lost even? What kind of a lock up it is, some sleep mode probably? But you can keep debug in some sleep modes if you connect in advance and enable that feature.
2023-11-02T22:52:34 < PlasmaHH> PaulFertser: as I understood it, it happens when the part of the chip reponsible for the registers is not clocked/powered up then the whole chip grinds to a halt, basically waiting forever for an answer of that unit
2023-11-02T22:55:20 < PaulFertser> PlasmaHH: I do not remember Cortex-M MCUs behaving like that but others here might have more ideas
2023-11-02T22:55:21 < PlasmaHH> PaulFertser: its easy to see for yourself, take a U5 that is basically running nothing ( and especially has not enabled any TPIU related stuff ) and access e.g. TPIU.FFSR ... and its gone...
2023-11-02T22:55:37 < PlasmaHH> not even the reset line works
2023-11-02T22:56:15 < PlasmaHH> (might work differently on different micros, haven't tested, but I assume they all use an extremely similar IP in that area )
2023-11-02T23:01:21 < PaulFertser> Nasty
2023-11-02T23:01:40 < PaulFertser> Probably worth enabling TPIU just to not have it crashed and use a watchpoint on it?
2023-11-02T23:01:52 < PlasmaHH> not enough power available
2023-11-02T23:02:29 < PlasmaHH> it took me ages to figure that out, in the end etm tracing came to the rescue, but normal fully assembled devices don't have that available...
2023-11-02T23:02:49 < PaulFertser> Probably that's why it crashes then, inadequate power supply?
2023-11-02T23:03:06 < PlasmaHH> no, it locks up with enough power too
2023-11-02T23:03:16 < PlasmaHH> if it would pull down VCC too much the device would reset
2023-11-02T23:03:41 < PlasmaHH> ( we have an elaborate brownout mechanism )
2023-11-02T23:04:06 < PlasmaHH> st says "works as intended, don't do it"
2023-11-02T23:04:34 < PlasmaHH> ( even though it took them weeks to play with the example project to figure that out )
2023-11-02T23:05:41 < PaulFertser> My idea is that if you do not know which code exactly is doing it you can make it not crash and watchpoint will just stop the target and you can see backtrace and everything.
2023-11-02T23:07:37 < PlasmaHH> yeah, unfortunately this time again where it happened ( and I am pretty sure that its the access to these registers, no other bug I have seen that locks up the chip ) is in a phase where full device testing is being done, which means that in the event of  a crash/lockup we can attach a debugger, but while its running, it does so under realistic conditions, and of course only locks up  
2023-11-02T23:07:44 < PlasmaHH> once in a blue moon and when you try to debug it never again
2023-11-02T23:08:26 < PlasmaHH> and with 35mW for a whole device there is not much headroom, all the debugging stuff is sadly not optimized for power usage...
--- Day changed pe marras 03 2023
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2023-11-03T02:02:25 < machinehum> https://www.hackster.io/news/arm-invests-in-raspberry-pi-acquires-a-minority-stake-of-the-popular-single-board-computer-maker-495d1b78c390
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2023-11-03T08:13:12 < jpa-> PlasmaHH: ah, i have seen the same on STM32H7 with some specific peripherals
2023-11-03T08:13:45 < jpa-> IIRC it was only when the bus interface was clocked but the peripheral itself wasn't
2023-11-03T08:14:04 < jpa-> so it could help to make sure you have all clocks related to the peripheral disabled, including the bit in AHBENR
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2023-11-03T09:48:16 < zyp> IIRC F4 will do the same if you try accessing a FSMC/FMC bank that's not enabled
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2023-11-03T09:49:22 < zyp> it'll hang forever waiting for the bus ack
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2023-11-03T10:03:41 < qyx> I would hang forever too
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2023-11-03T10:21:40 < qyx> awesome day, 38 W from a 5900 Wp photovoltaic
2023-11-03T10:22:05 < qyx> it looks like the sun forgot to come up
2023-11-03T10:28:57 < BrainDamage> chances are you're also outside the lock-in range of the MPPT charger
2023-11-03T10:29:57 < BrainDamage> mmm, that might be an interesting setup, having a separate photometer on a side and measure the difference
2023-11-03T10:30:43 < qyx> I guess I am because the panel voltage tracks the battery +1V
2023-11-03T10:30:48 < qyx> probab
2023-11-03T10:31:15 < qyx> probably the dcdc is off and there is only a bypass diode or whatever
2023-11-03T10:32:38 < qyx> or the high side fet is permanently on and the drop is caused by the reverse current blocking diode
2023-11-03T10:33:27 < BrainDamage> when that happens the panel efficiency crumbles
2023-11-03T10:33:58 < BrainDamage> with a passive load, reducing insolation reduces the panel's efficiency with ^2 or ^4 th power
2023-11-03T10:34:41 < BrainDamage> ^4 seems a bit big, so I guess it was ^2
2023-11-03T10:35:47 < BrainDamage> so 1/2 the insolation would yield to 1/4th of the power, etc
2023-11-03T10:36:33 < BrainDamage> which would explain why if you're with the MPPT charger off/bypassed your power output is tiny
2023-11-03T10:44:44 < qyx> I plan to replace both chargers, I hate them
2023-11-03T10:53:03 < qyx> hm, with a PIN photodiode like bpw34, is insolation directly proportional to the output current?
2023-11-03T10:53:33 < qyx> I don't remember exactly, I was considering doing such a photometer in the past
2023-11-03T10:53:50 < qyx> just shorting a photodiode and measuring the voltage
2023-11-03T10:55:55 < BrainDamage> you don't want that
2023-11-03T10:56:14 < BrainDamage> if you measure voltage you're back to photovoltaic mode and get the ^2 nonlinearity
2023-11-03T10:56:42 < BrainDamage> you want to shove the photocurrent into an opamp's feedback network, just the resistor
2023-11-03T10:57:09 < BrainDamage> the opamp will keep the diode's voltage fixed, and the current will go V=RI, so you're linear with output voltage and input power
2023-11-03T10:58:33 < BrainDamage> this is the basic idea: https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/uploads/articles/photodiode_circuit_precision_and_bandwidth_photocurrent_as_input_bias_current.png
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2023-11-03T10:59:06 < BrainDamage> and this the slightly better version with bias current being compensated: https://www.analog.com/en/design-center/reference-designs/circuit-collections/photodiode-amplifier.html
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2023-11-03T10:59:52 < qyx> isn't that a TIA?
2023-11-03T10:59:55 < BrainDamage> ehhh, I meant https://www.analog.com/-/media/analog/en/circuit-collections-images/ltc/413-circuit-1.jpg?w=900
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2023-11-03T11:00:09 < BrainDamage> yes, it's a TIA
2023-11-03T11:00:45 < BrainDamage> you want the voltage on the diode fixed, and the current steered away into _something else_
2023-11-03T11:01:16 < BrainDamage> it's important because voltage on the diode goes with e^x, while current is linear with input power
2023-11-03T11:01:56 < BrainDamage> that's why you virtually never see measurement systems in photovoltaic mode, aka voltage mode
2023-11-03T11:04:16 < BrainDamage> sorry, voltage goes with ln(x), not e^x, but still, noway a good function to have a linear measurement
2023-11-03T11:04:48 < qyx> so the right solution is photodiode with a tia
2023-11-03T11:05:11 < BrainDamage> correct
2023-11-03T11:06:15 < qyx> hm I may arduino up something with a lora module
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2023-11-03T11:08:13 < BrainDamage> sunrise/sunsets will also skew the measurement because the color changes so much that the diode's spectral efficiency will matter a lot
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2023-11-03T11:15:10 < karlp> zyp: jpa- PlasmaHH and in all these cases, NRST is simply _ignored_ ?! that sounds wild...
2023-11-03T11:16:09 < jpa-> ah, no, NRST still works
2023-11-03T11:16:50 < jpa-> at least for me, not sure why it wouldn't for PlasmaHH 
2023-11-03T11:17:06 < jpa-> watchdog also works
2023-11-03T11:18:47 < PlasmaHH> jpa-: for me it is ignore, I have to power cycle it... which chip and revision?
2023-11-03T11:18:48 < zyp> I'd expect NRST to still works, been years since I ran into it
2023-11-03T11:19:25 < PlasmaHH> zyp: I did expect that too... was a surprise...
2023-11-03T11:23:38 < qyx> BrainDamage: hm and there are those wide-spectrum multi diode digital sensors too
2023-11-03T11:24:13 < qyx> wwhat? nrst doesn't work when?
2023-11-03T11:25:00 < karlp> yeah, I'm having a hard time with "yeah, nrst doesn't work, and st says they don't care"....
2023-11-03T11:25:14 < karlp> (does store.playstation.com cause a cert error for anyone else?)
2023-11-03T11:25:31 < Steffanx> No
2023-11-03T11:26:37 < qyx> no
2023-11-03T11:27:29 < karlp> weird.  I get a a weird store.playstation.com.x.3ee5b70e07e3f043c60942100fa096ea67ae.d045227d.id.opendns.com altname,  issued by cisco...
2023-11-03T11:27:52 < qyx> you are mitm'd
2023-11-03T11:28:01 < qyx> original is digicert
2023-11-03T11:31:25 < qyx> now, L010 in qfp48, let's find out if G4 in qfp48 is compatible or not
2023-11-03T11:31:35 < karlp> nice. opendns is ... not.
2023-11-03T11:31:38 < karlp> that's their whole point
2023-11-03T11:31:44 < karlp> so, that'
2023-11-03T11:31:57 < karlp> so, that's neat.  work must be using that.  big fail.
2023-11-03T11:32:39 < qyx> I can't check store.playstation.com.x.3ee5b70e07e3f043c60942100fa096ea67ae.d045227d.id.opendns.com, it dones't resolve
2023-11-03T11:33:01 < zyp> karlp, unless you've got a chip where option bytes can disable NRST
2023-11-03T11:33:49 < karlp> zyp: that's ok if the option is set, sure...
2023-11-03T11:34:29 < karlp> cool, opendns was repeating the verisign adventures of "lol, we're not giving out nxdomain, we're just going to serve you ads"
2023-11-03T11:35:08 < jpa-> PlasmaHH: STM32H743 rev V
2023-11-03T11:35:34 < jpa-> are you sure you are giving NRST pulse? if you are doing it through debugger, might be just wrong config
2023-11-03T11:35:58 < jpa-> or if your code runs again after boot, it could lock up again
2023-11-03T11:36:35 < jpa-> ah.. TPIU? the debug block access? yeah, debug block is not reset by NRST
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2023-11-03T11:39:49 < qyx> ok L010 is not compatible with anything else
2023-11-03T11:40:51 < jpa-> i think i have seen the TPIU hang too, that's why i have this here  https://github.com/PetteriAimonen/STM32_Trace_Example/blob/master/trace_example.c#L33
2023-11-03T11:40:51 < karlp> tpiu.ffcr requires privileged access, but is meant to just be a busfault otherwise...
2023-11-03T11:41:46 < jpa-> if you don't enable TRCENA in in CoreDebug->DEMCR until TRACE_IOEN is ok, you don't get the hang
2023-11-03T11:41:56 < karlp> jpa-: I sitll maintain that the target really has no business configuring those registers :)
2023-11-03T11:42:33 < PlasmaHH> jpa-: never tried on the H7 ... they are probably sufficiently different with the two cores that it might be different there... using mainly U5 here
2023-11-03T11:42:47 < qyx> karlp: why? I also configure DBGMCU from the target
2023-11-03T11:43:22 < qyx> I have a service determining if a debug session is ongoing and multiple other things and depending on that it disables debugging features to preserve power
2023-11-03T11:43:27 < jpa-> karlp: feel free to feel that way, but i think having to mess up with gdb or whatever scripts is annoying
2023-11-03T11:43:28 < karlp> your debugger should do that when you configure tracing.
2023-11-03T11:44:03 < jpa-> i don't configure tracing through debugger in any case, because gdb and openocd don't seem to provide any real value in that
2023-11-03T11:44:08 < karlp> ok, so store.playstation.com resolves to "hit-adult.opendns.com" so it's "blocked by category" here then...
2023-11-03T11:44:23 < jpa-> orbtrace doesn't seem to support configuring those registers directly
2023-11-03T11:45:21 < karlp> orbtrace doesn't have anything to do with it, unless you consider using the BMP contributed gdb scripts to be orbtrace :)
2023-11-03T11:45:47 < jpa-> with the target configuring it, i can just start orbtrace and get the output
2023-11-03T11:46:01 < jpa-> i don't see why i would need to involve the debugger in that dance
2023-11-03T11:47:13 < karlp> you're permanently paying flash space, and running into that potential access problem, just so that you can connect a uart to the trace pins without a debugger. doesn't seem reasonable to me.
2023-11-03T11:47:44 < karlp> and if you're using a trace interface like jlink/stlink/orbtrace anyway, why not have it attach and configure and collect in one go?
2023-11-03T11:48:05 < jpa-> no, i'm not running into the access problem because i have a fancy if().. and no, i cannot connect tracing without debugger anyway because the target cannot enable the debug block by itself
2023-11-03T11:48:35 < jpa-> because all the ways i have found to have orbtrace/stlink configure the interface are total crap
2023-11-03T11:49:38 < jpa-> https://github.com/orbcode/orbuculum/blob/1ef7a09173df9f6f242d7d66c58be1b877fe1420/Support/gdbtrace.init   this is the best so far, but god is that complex compared to 50 lines of C
2023-11-03T11:50:17 < jpa-> then it doesn't work and i have to debug the trace stuff yet again, instead of debugging the actual problem i have :)
2023-11-03T11:50:57 < PlasmaHH> jpa-: you know that gdb can be scripted in python too, that makes things quite much easier...
2023-11-03T11:51:27 < jpa-> .. until the gdb gets some crazy mismatch with the system python version
2023-11-03T11:51:46 < PlasmaHH> never had that that happen 
2023-11-03T11:51:48 < jpa-> i need stuff that works, C code writing to registers works :)
2023-11-03T11:52:08 < jpa-> yes, it may have gotten better in the past 5 years
2023-11-03T11:52:15 < jpa-> gdb + python used to be a total gamble
2023-11-03T11:52:15 < PlasmaHH> I use gdb+python+svd files often
2023-11-03T11:53:28 < karlp> openocd's tpiu config looks pretty san eto me, I never liked that bmp/orb splatter of gdb.
2023-11-03T11:53:35 < jpa-> i do sometimes setup tracing through openocd, though even then i tend to prefer my own keep-it-simple stuff like https://github.com/PetteriAimonen/STM32_Trace_Example/blob/master/configure-trace.openocd
2023-11-03T11:53:47 < karlp> but I know openocd is uncool, and should always be replaced with bmp for "reasons"
2023-11-03T11:54:42 < jpa-> somehow the orbtrace left me confused whether i should use openocd or pyocd or bmp or what, because they all have their own problems
2023-11-03T11:54:53 < PlasmaHH> karlp: I am often fine with openocd and some ftdi chip ;)
2023-11-03T11:55:13 < karlp> orbuculum just wants "osmeone else" to seteup trace first :)
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2023-11-03T11:55:50 < karlp> I mean, thi sis all you need for ITM on a 0.12 oocd:https://paste.jvnv.net/view/0lUM5
2023-11-03T11:56:03 < jpa-> i really do wish that the target could really setup tracing by itself without a debugger
2023-11-03T11:56:18 < jpa-> then i could supply a trace cable to field engineers and they could collect traces
2023-11-03T11:56:22 < PlasmaHH> there are so many different ways to setup tracing I guess its hard to support them all nicely
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2023-11-03T11:57:07  * PlasmaHH wishes tracing was faster
2023-11-03T11:57:10 < karlp> shrinkwrap the orbtracemini into your own cable and call it the "tracecolelctor" ? :)
2023-11-03T11:57:21 < jpa-> karlp: but then i get trace overflows because of too fast PC sampling and have to go search for what option to give to configure that etc.
2023-11-03T11:57:47 < karlp> pc sampling commands hsould definitely be added to oocd,
2023-11-03T11:57:57 < jpa-> karlp: otherwise yeah, except the orbtracemini needs a crapload of stuff on the computer to work, and then it doesn't work if you start them in wrong order or something just goes randomly wrong
2023-11-03T11:58:13 < karlp> but "we're just going to put all of it in the target" sounds like the wrong way of approaching "openocd doesn't have command wrappers for some of the knobs"
2023-11-03T11:58:45 < jpa-> maybe it sounds wrong, but i'm not trying to design a perfect debugging setup, i'm trying to get stuff done :)
2023-11-03T11:59:01 < karlp> fair enough :)
2023-11-03T11:59:18 < jpa-> also i hate wrappers, just like STM32 HAL they end up being less documented and harder to use than the original registers
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2023-11-03T11:59:28 < jpa-> and then a new chip comes out and you are again stuck missing wrappers
2023-11-03T11:59:50 < karlp> well, dwt wrappers should be pretty damn fixed.... but yeah.
2023-11-03T12:00:08 < karlp> you obviously use laks then right, so you can just have raw hex for all registers, all the time? :)
2023-11-03T12:00:24 < jpa-> nah, stm32f4xx.h all the way :)
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2023-11-03T12:03:15 < jpa-> (i still cannot use laks because it doesn't have a README ;)
2023-11-03T12:03:47 < karlp> so. debug build hardfaults just after startup. release build runs, but breakpoinds aren't working?!
2023-11-03T12:04:14 < jpa-> fix the hardfault first, it is easiest
2023-11-03T12:04:42 < karlp> lol, no. I'm trying to break on the reset handler, and it... sometimes breaks there, sometimes not.
2023-11-03T12:04:56 < karlp> wnat to try and compare what's going on a bit, make sure I can trust this fucking jlink to behave.
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2023-11-03T12:06:23 < jpa-> once when i tried to break on reset handler, i defined the breakpoint by address and had that bottom bit set to 1 or not; i still can't remember which way it has to be, but the wrong way does very funny stuff
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2023-11-03T12:06:36 < jpa-> better just set breakpoint by function name
2023-11-03T12:09:08 < PaulFertser> Breaking on reset handler is probably better with "vector catch" facility?
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2023-11-03T12:11:13 < jpa-> oh, how is that used?
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2023-11-03T12:23:54 < PaulFertser> jpa-: there's a dedicated command in OpenOCD "cortex_m vector_catch" , it works by setting flags in DCB_DEMCR
2023-11-03T12:27:29 < karlp> huh, in release mode, commandline gdb, breakpoints work as expected, because I'm requesting breakpoints by name.  but there's no listings or anything or file names, which is why it's broken in vscode, as it must be just doing it all with file:line requests...
2023-11-03T12:30:00 < PaulFertser> Hm, why is release mode different at all anyhow? Are you using different -O option there or enable LTO?
2023-11-03T12:30:11 < karlp> looking at that now. :)
2023-11-03T12:30:25 < karlp> I'm generally a fan of "release what's tested" not this artificial split, but... 
2023-11-03T12:31:30 < PaulFertser> I mean it doesn't even make any sense for Cortex-M to have a split. Debug information is not included in the binary either way, there's no extra instrumentation or overhead or anything.
2023-11-03T12:31:53 < PaulFertser> And usually higher optimisation levels expose more bugs sooner, so it makes sense to always use that.
2023-11-03T12:32:27 < PaulFertser> LTO is a PITA for debugging, so probably that needs to be switchable on/off depending on specific circumstances.
2023-11-03T12:32:42 < qyx> I am not doing release/debug split either, bs
2023-11-03T12:32:49 < karlp> huh, explicitly linking with mcuexpresso libm and libc, not the toolchain versions.
2023-11-03T12:33:08 < qyx> elf always have all debug info included, binary and/or bootloader image is always without debug info
2023-11-03T12:35:41 < qyx> why did TME load all STM32 into their catalog when they have nearly nothing in stock, prices are not displayed either
2023-11-03T12:36:13 < Steffanx> Because it make you look at TME to buy STM32s
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2023-11-03T13:03:31 < Laurenceb_> anyone know how to hack 2FA?
2023-11-03T13:03:36 < Laurenceb_> isnt there a script for it
2023-11-03T13:03:52 < Laurenceb_> I seem to remember there is a desktop script to hack it
2023-11-03T13:05:56 < jpa-> yes, of course all 2FA is hackable with a desktop script
2023-11-03T13:06:07 < Laurenceb_> but whats the name of the script?
2023-11-03T13:06:17 < jpa-> hack_2fa.desktop of course
2023-11-03T13:06:32 < Laurenceb_> lol
2023-11-03T13:06:44 < Steffanx> Laurenceb_ got trolled \o/
2023-11-03T13:07:22 < Laurenceb_> this ?    https://authy.com/download/
2023-11-03T13:07:55 < jpa-> is "using an authenticator app for authenticating" called hacking now? :D
2023-11-03T13:08:08 < Laurenceb_> lol
2023-11-03T13:08:17 < Laurenceb_> its ment to be smartphone locked
2023-11-03T13:08:20 < jpa-> TOTP is a standard, there are plenty of apps to calculate the codes
2023-11-03T13:08:37 < jpa-> if your 2FA is meant to be smartphone locked, they are probably using something else than TOTP
2023-11-03T13:08:54 < jpa-> for example microsoft's app has a proprietary mode that i'm not aware of there being any other clients for
2023-11-03T13:09:44 < karlp> authy works for office365 shits for me at least, without needing the microsoft auth app
2023-11-03T13:11:28 < Laurenceb_> wtf authy wants to setup an account
2023-11-03T13:12:24 < jpa-> karlp: do you have the type where you get a code from phone and type it into PC, or the other kind where the server sends push notification to phone and you accept it there by writing a code that is on PC screen?
2023-11-03T13:12:58 < karlp> the former.
2023-11-03T13:13:02 < jpa-> first type is TOTP, second one is microsoft proprietary; i think the admin of the office365 account can set which types are allowed
2023-11-03T13:13:15 < jpa-> one of my clients requires the second type so i have to use microsoft app for that
2023-11-03T13:13:21 < karlp> booooo
2023-11-03T13:13:58 < jpa-> i do agree that it is probably harder to copy, because microsoft server will know all devices that are registered as tokens
2023-11-03T13:13:59 < karlp> I only had authy because some openwrt people got violent about "moah securehtay" for github, and I didn't feel like having multiple totp apps.
2023-11-03T13:14:05 < Laurenceb_> winauth
2023-11-03T13:14:41 < jpa-> annoying part is that it breaks openconnect vpn, so i need to use the cisco client also
2023-11-03T13:15:16 < karlp> grossss
2023-11-03T13:15:38 < karlp> yeah, I'm not looking forward to figuring out VPN for work at some point
2023-11-03T13:16:01 < karlp> when old job was doing some work for new job, we had to use a _very_ gross "pulsesecure" that I never managed to make work on linux.
2023-11-03T13:16:10 < karlp> so not looking forward to figuring it now for myself :)
2023-11-03T13:16:16 < karlp> also gross? kinetis
2023-11-03T13:16:38 < PaulFertser> stlink clones (in alu case) work nicely as 2FA FIDO2/Webauthn tokens.
2023-11-03T13:17:04 < qyx> lol
2023-11-03T13:17:25 < karlp> they place some flash config at 0x400, so it's [vectors|reset_handler (include bss init)|space|"flashconfig"|.text]
2023-11-03T13:17:29 < qyx> do we have a ##stm32 approved token?
2023-11-03T13:17:44 < karlp> so both a) wasteful if reset is small, and b) super hazardous if you do anything to big in your reset handler...
2023-11-03T13:28:18 < karlp> also kinetis. ram starts at 0x1FFF_8000, goes up to 0x20018000
2023-11-03T13:37:25 < karlp> fucking vschode.
2023-11-03T13:37:57 < karlp> backtrace when it pauses in the hardfault handler is somewhewere off in the woods.
2023-11-03T13:38:15 < karlp> info reg -> pc = 0x142. (offin_the_woods +322)
2023-11-03T13:38:34 < karlp> turns out off-in_the_woods is a discard symbol, so counts as "0" somewhere
2023-11-03T13:38:43 < karlp> fucking trash
2023-11-03T13:38:58 < karlp> addr2line shows the right thing.
2023-11-03T13:41:16 < karlp> cmdline gdb properly shows the right backtrace, with the right names.
2023-11-03T13:41:23 < karlp> this is what I get for trying to use the cool new toys...
2023-11-03T13:51:37 < jpa-> i don't use vscode debugger integration either
2023-11-03T13:51:51 < jpa-> but good to know that i now have a valid reason not to :)
2023-11-03T13:56:59 < karlp> it's wild that this is not something people have run into and fixed though?
2023-11-03T13:57:22 < karlp> I wonder if this is some weird cortex-debug vs "vscode cpp debug" thing?
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2023-11-03T14:12:54 < jpa-> to me it sounds like reading wrong stack pointer, like gdb used to do back in the day
2023-11-03T14:13:03 < jpa-> msp vs. psp
2023-11-03T14:13:51 < jpa-> unless you are actually linking code starting at 0x0000 in which case it is crappy symbol lookup
2023-11-03T14:14:05 < karlp> yeah, code is at 0 on kinetis.
2023-11-03T14:14:16 < jpa-> ah
2023-11-03T14:14:25 < jpa-> those pesky null pointers
2023-11-03T14:17:16 < karlp> fucking hell jlink just _lies_ at times.
2023-11-03T14:18:02 < karlp> erase flash, comapre-sections => yup, it's not right. "load" => instant success, 15000KB/sec, compare-sections "yes, it's been flashed now!"  (narrator: it had not, at all, been successfully flashed)
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2023-11-03T14:37:46 < zyp> I had that issue when flashing through jlink commander a while ago
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2023-11-03T14:38:23 < zyp> jlink fucking lies, assumes flashing worked, caches the contents it thinks it flashed, returns cached content on readback
2023-11-03T14:38:47 < zyp> if you reattach and read, you get entirely different content
2023-11-03T14:38:55 < Steffanx> I still wonder why i never ran into this. 
2023-11-03T14:39:21 < zyp> well, in my case flashing failed because another MCU on the same board was getting angry and pulling nrst in the middle of jlink flashing
2023-11-03T14:39:42 < zyp> and that's what caused jlink to silently fail
2023-11-03T14:40:02 < zyp> that was fucking nonobvious bullshit
2023-11-03T14:40:45 < zyp> the reason I was using jlink commander in the first place was because this was at a client's place, hooked up to a windows computer without a whole lot of tools installed
2023-11-03T14:41:11 < zyp> didn't work it out before the client shipped hardware across half the country to me
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2023-11-03T14:43:18 < Ecco> Have you guys ever had rounding errors with Altium?
2023-11-03T14:43:45 < Ecco> I have a solder mask sliver that should be *exactly* .1mm
2023-11-03T14:44:00 < Ecco> and it fails the DRC with an error ".999997m < 1mm"
2023-11-03T14:44:18 < Ecco> sorry, .0999997 < .1mm
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2023-11-03T14:46:36 < zyp> dunno, I always turn off the solder mask sliver test
2023-11-03T14:47:01 < zyp> not surprising though
2023-11-03T14:47:10 < Ecco> why? why? :-D
2023-11-03T14:47:26 < zyp> subtract some tolerance from your DRC rule and call it a day
2023-11-03T14:48:00 < Ecco> well, yeah I guess that's what I'll probably end up doing, but I'm surprised to have the error in the first place
2023-11-03T14:48:13 < Ecco> Why don't you use that check tho?
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2023-11-03T14:53:13 < zyp> because it doesn't seem very useful to me
2023-11-03T14:54:11 < karlp> in this case, if you do a flash erase, kinetis resecures the flash, and needs another step to "unsecure"
2023-11-03T14:54:31 < karlp> so the jlink console was scrolling errors about unable to access and "0xdeadbeef" but was happily reporting perfect answers to gdb.
2023-11-03T14:54:37 < karlp> pro software, definitely worth the money
2023-11-03T14:58:16 < Ecco> Another solder mask question: ST's doc recommends to use a 0.05mm expansion around the LGA package I'm looking at
2023-11-03T14:58:28 < Ecco> that results in a solder mask sliver that's 0.05mm wide
2023-11-03T14:58:39 < Ecco> problem: that's too narrow for JLCPCB
2023-11-03T14:59:05 < Ecco> question -> Is it ok if I decrease the expansion down to 0.025mm in order to have a solder mask sliver that's .1mm?
2023-11-03T15:00:21 < karlp> or, you have to give up on solder mask at fine enough pitches...
2023-11-03T15:01:40 < karlp> so, project wide debug vs release both uses -ggdb3, and debug vs release is just toggling NDEBUG and some other preproc definitions.
2023-11-03T15:01:59 < karlp> on _my_ project, it also removed -gggdb3 entirely, no wonder debug was useless on the release ones :)
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2023-11-03T15:12:44 < ventYl> I've had my own episode with kinetis recently
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2023-11-03T15:30:38 < karlp> fuckin lol
2023-11-03T15:30:50 < karlp> hardfault is because it's actually too big for flash on debug mode.
2023-11-03T15:31:05 < karlp> some clever person here has the linker script set for the 512k model, not the 256k model actually on the boards.
2023-11-03T15:31:44 < karlp> in hindsight the registers make this obvious...
2023-11-03T15:32:29 < karlp> fuck cm0 though, you get so much less usefull debug help
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2023-11-03T15:45:19 < Ecco> is it possible to solder w/o mask?
2023-11-03T15:45:26 < Ecco> I mean, in a reasonably efficient way?
2023-11-03T15:45:57 < jpa-> you mean on homemade pcbs? sure, people have been doing that for ages
2023-11-03T15:46:30 < jpa-> ah, you mean between LGA pins; yeah, it's fine, the risk of shorts doesn't increase that much
2023-11-03T15:47:44 < jpa-> typically you would submit your files at 0 expansion and the PCB manufacturer adds expansion enough to satisfy their registration accuracy
2023-11-03T15:50:34 < Ecco> oh
2023-11-03T15:50:35 < jpa-> jlcpcb specs says "Soldermask webs are possible between pads at least 4 mil apart." so you are probably fine as long as you don't try to set your own expansions
2023-11-03T15:51:01 < Ecco> I'm supposed to submit gerber files w/o any extension?
2023-11-03T15:51:20 < Ecco> (i.e. where pads == mask)?
2023-11-03T15:51:24 < jpa-> generally yes
2023-11-03T15:51:27 < Ecco> I mean, why even bother with a mask layer then?
2023-11-03T15:51:34 < Ecco> ok I had no idea
2023-11-03T15:51:39 < jpa-> where else would they know where the pads are?
2023-11-03T15:51:40 < Ecco> I don't think I've ever done this
2023-11-03T15:51:46 < Ecco> Good point indeed
2023-11-03T15:52:07 < Ecco> Is it something that EDAs do by default?
2023-11-03T15:52:14 < jpa-> you can apply expansion yourself if you have special needs, but for most parts the expansion is there just to account for the tolerance of soldermask placement
2023-11-03T15:52:20 < Ecco> (not shipping the expanded version in the gerber)
2023-11-03T15:52:38 < Ecco> I mean... Now that you're saying it it makes sense
2023-11-03T15:52:44 < jpa-> kicad nowadays even has a note about it in the dialog where you would set the expansion, and the default value is 0
2023-11-03T15:52:54 < jpa-> but if you set an expansion, it will be part of the gerbers
2023-11-03T15:53:03 < Ecco> I guess in Altium they need to show the expanded version so you can vizualize stuff while taking the tolerances into account
2023-11-03T15:53:10 < Ecco> hmm, ok
2023-11-03T15:53:25 < Ecco> So maybe I need to tweak the expansion value *just for the export*
2023-11-03T15:53:32 < jpa-> why not just set them to 0?
2023-11-03T15:53:34 < Ecco> or… not even bother at all
2023-11-03T15:53:50 < jpa-> what does it "visualize"?
2023-11-03T15:53:51 < Ecco> well, because in that case there's no check at all on the solder mask
2023-11-03T15:54:02 < jpa-> what kind of check?
2023-11-03T15:54:09 < Ecco> that the solder mask isn't too thin
2023-11-03T15:54:27 < jpa-> the manufacturer will expand by their own specs and remove any too thin parts
2023-11-03T15:54:27 < Ecco> but I mean, you're right, if at the end of the day the fab just removes it if they can't build it
2023-11-03T15:54:46 < Ecco> Damn
2023-11-03T15:54:58 < Ecco> That seems… pretty obvious now
2023-11-03T15:55:02 < jpa-> you can look at the specs to see what the copper pad distance needs to be to get soldermask, for jlcpcb it is 0.1 mm for 4-layer green
2023-11-03T15:55:14 < Ecco> indeed
2023-11-03T15:55:44 < Ecco> I think it's even actually .08 even for 2 layers
2023-11-03T15:57:09 < jpa-> but for 2 layers they have 0.038 mm expansion
2023-11-03T15:59:33 < Ecco> ok you're right (just read their specs), but I'm not sure what that means
2023-11-03T15:59:46 < Ecco> It means they will expand by 0.038mm for 2-layers pcbs
2023-11-03T16:00:03 < Ecco> but for 4+, they don't even? So the soldermask is *right* around the pads?
2023-11-03T16:00:20 < Ecco> Or does it mean that for 2 layers they expect expanded Gerbers?
2023-11-03T16:00:32 < jpa-> yes, they'll slap on the soldermask sloppily because it is just a crappy 2-layer board, and they'll expand by 0.038mm so that it doesn't cover pads too much
2023-11-03T16:02:25 < jpa-> https://lcamtuf.substack.com/p/comparing-hobby-pcb-vendors  https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/d8d61853-fd1f-4849-8cce-58edb8512af3_1600x1067.jpeg   i think that is jlcpcb 2-layer
2023-11-03T16:03:07 < jpa-> http://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/jlcpcb_bga.jpg   this is jlcpcb 4-layer, though several years old
2023-11-03T16:04:15 < karlp> imagine using a M3 part, and going "let's put our vectors at a 1k aligned block _later_ in flash, and setup SCB-VTOR in startup, instead of just putting the vector table at the start of flash"
2023-11-03T16:04:50 < jpa-> looks like in my photo i have had 0.07mm manually specified soldermask expansion because i didn't know any better back then, but it has landed right in middle so 0 would have worked
2023-11-03T16:05:14 < Ecco> ok makes sense :)
2023-11-03T16:05:16 < Ecco> Thanks!!!
2023-11-03T16:07:04 < Ecco> I always thought that JLCPCB was really just a marketplace
2023-11-03T16:07:18 < Ecco> (as in, a bunch of actual PCB fabs do the job behind the scene)
2023-11-03T16:07:31 < Ecco> do you guys think that's actually the case?
2023-11-03T16:08:26 < Ecco> From the article you linked "Overall, I think that Aisler is a solid compromise choice if you don’t want to patronize the Chinese regime.". I mean, if that's really a concern, you might as well just give up on electronics right away…
2023-11-03T16:08:58 < jpa-> no, jlcpcb has their own fab and it is actually pretty decent one
2023-11-03T16:09:14 < jpa-> not sure if they outsource some stuff, but most is inhour
2023-11-03T16:09:16 < jpa-> *inhouse
2023-11-03T16:09:27 < Ecco> oh, ok, I just assumed they outsourced everything. So it does indeed make sense to review their process. Interesting.
2023-11-03T16:09:49 < Ecco> Note that I have no evidence to back my assumption. It was just a guess, really
2023-11-03T16:10:08 < jbo> that's how conspiracies work
2023-11-03T16:10:10 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/jlcpcb_soldermask.jpg   a more recent jlcpcb 4-layer board ordered with 0 soldermask expansion, 0.2mm distance between pad copper
2023-11-03T16:10:38 < Ecco> How did you take that photo? It's pretty good (I mean, given the magnification)
2023-11-03T16:10:47 < jpa-> andonstar microscope
2023-11-03T16:11:43 < Ecco> Cool
2023-11-03T16:12:54 < jpa-> https://www.ebay.com/itm/275827585720  they are rather affordable
2023-11-03T16:27:24 < Ecco> Oh indeed
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2023-11-03T17:13:03 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/JSur51n.png
2023-11-03T17:13:18 < Ecco> Why do they put why I assume is an LC filter on VDDA?
2023-11-03T17:13:26 < Ecco> *what I assume
2023-11-03T17:14:39 < jbo> that's just a low pass filter
2023-11-03T17:15:15 < jbo> keeps the noise down
2023-11-03T17:15:15 < Ecco> indeed. But why?
2023-11-03T17:15:20 < Ecco> what noise?
2023-11-03T17:15:28 < jbo> all the noise
2023-11-03T17:15:30 < Ecco> :-D
2023-11-03T17:15:43 < jbo> every time you toggle a GPIO you generate noise
2023-11-03T17:15:48 < jbo> your SMPS generates noise
2023-11-03T17:15:56 < jbo> every cable, every trace on the PCB acts as an antenna picking up noise
2023-11-03T17:16:00 < Ecco> well that part doesn't have an SMPS
2023-11-03T17:16:06 < Ecco> hmm, ok
2023-11-03T17:16:16 < Ecco> and the VDDA pin is sensitive to noise?
2023-11-03T17:16:35 < jbo> yes
2023-11-03T17:16:38 < Ecco> What's the problem if the analog power supply's voltage varies a little bit?
2023-11-03T17:16:53 < Ecco> then the ADC's measurements are noisy?
2023-11-03T17:16:54 < jbo> what part is this?
2023-11-03T17:17:00 < Ecco> STM32WBA
2023-11-03T17:17:14 < Ecco> It's a rather simple part
2023-11-03T17:17:15 < jbo> in that case VDDA is most likely used for ADC and DAC
2023-11-03T17:17:16 < Ecco> no SMPS
2023-11-03T17:17:25 < Ecco> I don't think there's a DAC
2023-11-03T17:17:27 < jbo> so noise on that pin translates to inaccuracies
2023-11-03T17:17:40 < Ecco> inaccuracies when doing ADC measurements, right?
2023-11-03T17:18:10 < Ecco> but I think I'll only ever use the ADC to measure a battery's voltage, so I guess I don't need to bother with a filter *in my application*
2023-11-03T17:18:20 < Ecco> but I understand why ST would put one for the general case. Thanks!
2023-11-03T17:18:24 < Ecco> Another dumb question
2023-11-03T17:18:35 < Ecco> (yes I'm looking at a lot of ST sample schematics to try and learn from them)
2023-11-03T17:18:52 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/GbkgU15.png
2023-11-03T17:18:59 < Ecco> That's how they hook up a switch to a GPIO
2023-11-03T17:19:04 < Ecco> And… I'm confused
2023-11-03T17:19:19 < Ecco> why not really just hooking the switch between a GPIO and GND?
2023-11-03T17:19:28 < Ecco> Why the pull up? Why the series resistor? Why the capacitor?
2023-11-03T17:20:21 < jbo> noise filter once again
2023-11-03T17:20:36 < jbo> slows the slew rate down
2023-11-03T17:20:38 < Ecco> So what, it's like a hardware debouncer?
2023-11-03T17:20:55 < jbo> technically it's not a debouncer - it will still bounce. but much less violently
2023-11-03T17:21:14 < Ecco> so what's the point?
2023-11-03T17:21:26 < jbo> mostly reducing noise
2023-11-03T17:21:56 < Ecco> I don't get it. It's a digital state, right? I don't really understand how noise would have an impact
2023-11-03T17:22:35 < jbo> digital doesn't exist in physics. it's just an interpretation of analog.
2023-11-03T17:22:42 < Ecco> Yes indeed
2023-11-03T17:22:54 < Ecco> but what I meant was "the GPIO only samples a digital state"
2023-11-03T17:23:11 < Ecco> as in, is V(pin) > 1.7 or below 1.7v (or whatever the limit is)
2023-11-03T17:23:33 < Ecco> I understand that there might be some noise when the switch is being pressed, which is why you need a debouncer
2023-11-03T17:24:03 < Ecco> but I still don't get the point of that capacitor if it doesn't completely fix the bouncing situation :)
2023-11-03T17:24:24 < Ecco> also, I'm not sure why there's another resitor in series to the GPIO (R5 in the schematics)
2023-11-03T17:24:28 < jbo> sry I'm in a meeting - maybe somebody else has time to explain
2023-11-03T17:24:39 < Ecco> oh no worries, don't apologize
2023-11-03T17:25:08 < Ecco> you don't owe me anything :) And I'm asking basic questions anyway
2023-11-03T17:28:06 < Ecco> I actually found an explanation for R5 online: it's useful if you fuck up your GPIO config. If for some reason you configure it as an output pin driven high, then a keypress would yield a short circuit.
2023-11-03T17:28:35 < Ecco> so again, because ST doesn't know how the circuit is going to be used, they stay on the safe side. ok, this one makes sense.
2023-11-03T17:28:43 < Ecco> Now the capacitor, I guess is some form of debouncing
2023-11-03T17:29:04 < Ecco> I'm still not sure about the hardware pullup tho. I mean, the built-in one is free…
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2023-11-03T19:20:39 < qyx> Ecco: the built-in one is about 50k which may not fit your application
2023-11-03T19:21:13 < qyx> also sometimes you want to define your default state even when the mcu is not running
2023-11-03T19:54:55 < mawk> typical 40k, at most 50k
2023-11-03T19:55:17 < mawk> except for the USB or I²C pins or something like that
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2023-11-03T20:42:47 < Ecco> Makes sense. Thanks!
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2023-11-03T21:46:26 < qyx> so, what other backaplane connector standards do we have except DIN 41612
2023-11-03T21:46:54 < qyx> it looks pretty outdated although still very available
2023-11-03T21:48:12 < qyx> I would probably want split the back of the PCB into multiple sections with connectors optionally populated
2023-11-03T21:48:19 < qyx> so I want a very narrow one
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2023-11-03T22:52:31 < Ecco> Might be a dumb answer, but how about reusing a PCIe connector?
2023-11-03T23:09:21 < Ecco> Are vias-in-pad a bad idea? Should I try and avoid them?
2023-11-03T23:11:04 < Ecco> (in the context of a cheap 2-layer PCB at JLCPCB)
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--- Day changed la marras 04 2023
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2023-11-04T00:15:46 < qyx> Ecco: I am doing it now and it is a good idea for a lab-product or a commercial product, but it doesn't work well in a harsh setup with severe vibrations
2023-11-04T00:16:48 < qyx> and to do the card edge properly you need additional 2 manufacturing steps which are more expensive in the end than using an actual connector
2023-11-04T00:16:57 < qyx> vias in pads will suck solder
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2023-11-04T00:57:58 < Ecco> Oh, interesting :)
2023-11-04T00:58:03 < Ecco> Holy cow
2023-11-04T00:58:04 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/rvNyWm5.png
2023-11-04T00:58:09 < Ecco> That's a Nucleo board
2023-11-04T00:58:18 < Ecco> they drilled like a million ground vias through the damn thing
2023-11-04T00:58:20 < Ecco> WTF???
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2023-11-04T01:01:05 < Ecco> They're like… sprinkled around
2023-11-04T01:01:12 < Ecco> Not even aligned or anything
2023-11-04T01:01:15 < Ecco> Why???
2023-11-04T01:04:04 < qyx> via stitching it is called and it is usually used in 2L designs to avoid floating copper pours
2023-11-04T01:04:30 < qyx> they look random but they follow a pattern
2023-11-04T01:04:59 < qyx> eg. they are added when a trace crosses the ground plane, in the corners of copper pours, etc.
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2023-11-04T01:06:13 < qyx> but there are two sizes and it looks like there is nothing on the board
2023-11-04T01:06:35 < Ecco> Well it's a 4L board
2023-11-04T01:06:42 < Ecco> ok let me look up "via stitching"
2023-11-04T01:06:46 < Ecco> because this makes no sense to me
2023-11-04T01:07:58 < Ecco> ok, so the idea of adding vias between ground pours on different layers makes sense
2023-11-04T01:08:10 < Ecco> essentially you're building a "shorter" return ground track
2023-11-04T01:08:17 < nomorekaki> bit = BInary digiT
2023-11-04T01:10:28 < qyx> adc = I'll bit you
2023-11-04T01:11:44 < qyx> so the first match is amphenol fci Metral VH/RAR
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2023-11-04T01:39:44 < karlp> (you just need to pay for "real" pcbs to get pcie properly right?)
2023-11-04T01:40:03 < karlp> I mean, we both knowthat cheap, unchamfered, unhardgold _works_ but seems to be longterm unreliable.
2023-11-04T01:40:14 < karlp> but is it _really_ a problemto just pay for gold fingers?
2023-11-04T01:40:28 < karlp> also, you're cards don't have to be freestanding
2023-11-04T01:45:20 < qyx> I chamfered, ENIGed, not freestanding, using card guides and still not reliable enough
2023-11-04T01:45:27 < qyx> yes hardgold is missing
2023-11-04T01:45:51 < qyx> but fukthat, real connector have multi point contact and is cheaper
2023-11-04T01:47:38 < qyx> other than that, I also miss the possibility to selectively populate just those parts of the card-backplane interconnect that the card is actually using
2023-11-04T01:48:21 < qyx> exactly like the metral modular concept is doing - connectors are n*12 - 0.05 mm wide
2023-11-04T01:48:50 < qyx> so I could put 8 on the back of a 100 mm PCB
2023-11-04T01:49:28 < qyx> module 1 is the basic functionality, just 5 V + some basic comms, debug, etc.
2023-11-04T01:49:46 < qyx> module 2 adds ethernet, ..
2023-11-04T01:50:04 < qyx> maybe more power capability of the 5 V vbus
2023-11-04T01:50:52 < karlp> really? what sort of reliability were you running into at that point?
2023-11-04T01:51:08 < karlp> I mean, hardgold, should, IMO, only matter for long term rel, 
2023-11-04T01:51:16 < karlp> and you've not been doing this long enough?
2023-11-04T01:51:37 < karlp> what are "real connectors" then?
2023-11-04T01:51:46 < qyx> it already died two times this year, ethernet and can bus, it starts with occasional bus errors and then fails
2023-11-04T01:51:55 < karlp> and how didn't you find them first? how did you let my pcie madness infect you?
2023-11-04T01:52:24 < qyx> but I have 10-20 mm of vibration amplitude :>
2023-11-04T01:52:30 < karlp> ok, thatðs... a lot.
2023-11-04T01:52:39 < karlp> what sort of freq?
2023-11-04T01:52:45 < karlp> or, freq of freq?
2023-11-04T01:53:10 < qyx> 1-2 Hz roughly, 1.45 it was IIRC last time I did spectrograms
2023-11-04T01:53:25 < karlp> you have 10-20mm ov 1-2Hz, all the time?!
2023-11-04T01:53:54 < qyx> not all te time, when the bridge is sufficiently excited with the right traffic
2023-11-04T01:54:02 < qyx> but most of the day, yeah
2023-11-04T01:54:15 < karlp> fuck that.
2023-11-04T01:54:25 < qyx> not by design, it just happened
2023-11-04T01:54:32 < qyx> wrong mounting place selection
2023-11-04T01:55:23 < qyx> but I am not fixing this particular issue, this has to be fixed by moving the installation just a few meters away
2023-11-04T01:55:38 < qyx> I am trying to improve the thing to not happen even under these circumstances
2023-11-04T01:56:22 < qyx> and wrt. the right connectors, I am checking Amphenol FCI Metral again.
2023-11-04T01:56:37 < qyx> I am just trying to understand what hard metric proposers were trying to propose
2023-11-04T01:56:59 < qyx> and if it is feasible to move the hard metric way or keep the subrack imperial
2023-11-04T01:58:47 < qyx> it looks like I would be the first to use other than 5.08 mm HP
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2023-11-04T01:59:23 < Laurence_b> anyone here ever used teams?
2023-11-04T01:59:29 < Laurence_b> I cant login :(
2023-11-04T01:59:29 < qyx> yes
2023-11-04T01:59:37 < qyx> that's unfortunate
2023-11-04T01:59:40 < qyx> I can
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2023-11-04T02:00:04 < Laurence_b> I seem to be in an impossible situation where it needs to authenticate but there is no way to configure authentication
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2023-11-04T02:00:34 < karlp> qyx!
2023-11-04T02:00:40 < karlp> bah
2023-11-04T02:00:50 < karlp> metrallooks cool, but cheaper? really?
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2023-11-04T02:14:28 < Ecco> what is "hardgold"?
2023-11-04T02:22:24 < Ecco> found this https://www.protoexpress.com/kb/hard-gold-surface-finish/
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2023-11-04T10:25:19 < zyp> qyx, 4/5 row 2mm pitch pth sounds annoying to fuck to route
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2023-11-04T11:54:33 < qyx> zyp: good point, I planned to use 4 row and played a bit with the pinout
2023-11-04T11:58:27 < zyp> the fanuc stuff got a bunch of connectors with four staggered 2.54mm pitch rows
2023-11-04T11:58:30 < zyp> I hate them
2023-11-04T12:02:19 < zyp> e.g. https://bin.jvnv.net/file/eACVU/fanuc_module_amp.pdf
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2023-11-04T12:50:02 < qyx> hm I don't need all the signals, I'll create some drafts tomorrow
2023-11-04T12:50:04 < qyx> I mean all the pins
2023-11-04T12:50:25 < qyx> many are aggregated, gnd here and there, vbus is 4 pins in a single column, so no problem at all
2023-11-04T12:50:53 < qyx> in the current pinout you need at most 2 signals between pads
2023-11-04T12:51:05 < qyx> maybe it could be done with one
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2023-11-04T13:31:21 < qyx> omg I am not able to find out the PTH hole dimensions
2023-11-04T13:58:46 < Steffanx> Qyx can I hire you to look for connectors? I hate looking for connectors, you seem to enjoy it.
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2023-11-04T14:51:58 < Laurence_b> oh sheeetttt
2023-11-04T14:52:13 < specing> oh no
2023-11-04T14:52:17 < specing> oh yes?
2023-11-04T14:52:28 < Laurence_b> >hyperboss told us not to worry about the smoke and burning plastic smell coming from hyperwheel test cell during 48 hour run test
2023-11-04T14:52:43 < Laurence_b> test finished and shit is baaaddddd
2023-11-04T14:53:18 < specing> "boss! There is no test any more!"?
2023-11-04T14:53:32 < Laurence_b> motor and wheeel looked ok so we were instructed to continue
2023-11-04T14:53:54 < Laurence_b> and the wheel and motor were fine, problem is the suspension arm has been incinerated
2023-11-04T14:54:04 < specing> lol
2023-11-04T14:54:35 < Laurence_b> there is bulletproof glass around it and door is interlocked so it was hard to see what was wrong
2023-11-04T14:55:11 < Laurence_b> looks like about 5kW of inductive heating went into the suspension from the way to power feed was arranged
2023-11-04T14:56:32 < Laurence_b> this is full retard, even household wiring guidelines warm about such inductive heating effects, good domestic electrician would have spotted it
2023-11-04T15:01:00 < specing> lol
2023-11-04T15:26:54 < PaulFertser> Thank you Laurence_b for delivering real lols today
2023-11-04T15:27:19 < Laurence_b> I wasnt responsible for the cable arrangement...
2023-11-04T15:33:26 < Ecco> in Altium, is it possible to have both a 2D and 3D view of a single PCB in split screen mode?
2023-11-04T15:35:53 < specing> Laurence_b: but will you still be blamed for it..
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2023-11-04T16:53:25 < qyx> Steffanx: I hate that too
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2023-11-04T18:08:55 < qyx> lol just read home electrician inductive heating
2023-11-04T18:27:13 < specing> yeah that's how induction cookers work, they're popular
2023-11-04T18:30:39 < qyx> I am just saying there is no way a home electrician knows anything about inductive heating effects of house wiring
2023-11-04T18:34:39 < Steffanx> unless you decided to become a home electrician.
2023-11-04T18:34:57 < BrainDamage> maybe the UK switched to 500V 100MHz mains wiring
2023-11-04T18:37:23 < zyp> qyx, that's not true, even for home electrics there rules regarding return paths and shit, if you've got a metal enclosure all conductors must go through the same hole
2023-11-04T18:37:52 < zyp> to avoid creating a loop that induces current/heat in the enclosure
2023-11-04T18:38:46 < specing> BrainDamage: in a closed-to-air wire cable tube, even 1W of heating can be a problem 
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2023-11-04T18:40:45 < qyx> zyp: there are no metal conduits nor enclosures used here, almost exclusively plastic
2023-11-04T18:43:56 < qyx> and even code inspectors are ignoring eg. minimising ground-live loops when connecting transient suppressors, etc.
2023-11-04T18:46:08 < qyx> I have seen enough to not feel any sympathy with home electricians
2023-11-04T18:55:50 < nomorekaki> #electricians32
2023-11-04T18:58:05 < nomorekaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX3uNk8xVMc showed this to my cat. I think cat is broken now
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2023-11-04T21:25:36 < Ecco> Dumb question: what's the point of component designators on a PCB?
2023-11-04T21:25:48 < Ecco> I'm having a hard time showing them all (not a lot of space)
2023-11-04T21:26:00 < Ecco> and actually most "production" PCBs I've seen don't have them at all
2023-11-04T21:26:07 < Ecco> so I assume they're just useful for prototyping?
2023-11-04T21:26:18 < Ecco> So what about putting the designator *below* the part
2023-11-04T21:27:01 < Ecco> This way it'll make hand soldering easier
2023-11-04T21:27:31 < Ecco> Is it just a very dumb idea?
2023-11-04T21:32:35 < PaulFertser> Manual rework and debugging is easier when you have them on silk, few opportunities to mess up.
2023-11-04T21:32:56 < PaulFertser> fewer
2023-11-04T21:34:49 < PaulFertser> And it's not just during the prototyping that you sometimes need to spend time finding issues on the board.
2023-11-04T21:35:59 < Ecco> hmm, makes sense
2023-11-04T21:36:07 < Ecco> But then sometimes it's hard to find space on the board…
2023-11-04T21:36:36 < Ecco> so when I have large-ish footprints (0805 or larger), I'm tempted to put the designator below the actual part
2023-11-04T21:36:44 < Ecco> it seems smart, but maybe it's not?
2023-11-04T21:39:53 < PaulFertser> When you really have no space then you have no choice. But if there's some free space nearby you can put the labels there, with lines to make it obvious what they belong to.
2023-11-04T21:58:21 < zyp> putting it below the part is fairly pointless
2023-11-04T21:58:40 < zyp> might help a bit with assembly still, but not not debugging
2023-11-04T21:59:41 < zyp> I've got a bit of a mixed opinion about silk designators
2023-11-04T22:01:19 < zyp> first of all, if you're gonna have them, they should be useful
2023-11-04T22:02:19 < zyp> to be useful, they need to be legible and unambiguous, which means a bunch of manual work in placing them sanely
2023-11-04T22:02:58 < zyp> and that falls apart anyway if the board is too dense to make them fit
2023-11-04T22:04:55 < zyp> so, I can appreciate decent silk designators when I'm debugging some board, but I don't bother doing them on boards I design myself
2023-11-04T22:05:33 < zyp> I figure boards look cleaner when I only use the silk to label user-related stuff instead, e.g. LEDs and connectors
2023-11-04T22:06:13 < zyp> labeling LEDs e.g. «STATUS» and «ERROR» is a lot more useful than «D12» and «D13» or whatever
2023-11-04T22:08:03 < zyp> how I like to use silk: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/8mskf.JPG
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--- Day changed su marras 05 2023
2023-11-05T00:36:01 < qyx> 8
2023-11-05T00:36:04 < qyx> sorry
2023-11-05T00:36:12 < qyx> zyp: what are those LEDs?
2023-11-05T00:36:21 < qyx> I remember they are smart
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2023-11-05T01:40:14 < kdehl> Finally got my ARM test boards that you guys gave me a lot of input for a few weeks ago.
2023-11-05T01:40:17 < kdehl> https://aws.dose.se/files/arm32_test_board_rev1.jpg
2023-11-05T01:40:39 < kdehl> Draws 30 mA. Seems reasonable. So no short, I suppose.
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2023-11-05T01:47:26 < kdehl> Huh. How about that. I found something called stlink-gui that seems to connect to the board too, using my ST-link programmer.
2023-11-05T01:53:08 < ventYl> why would you use that?
2023-11-05T01:56:17 < kdehl> I have never done ARM programming before. I just wanted something to verify the connection to the board. Seems to work.
2023-11-05T01:58:36 < kdehl> https://aws.dose.se/files/arm/arm32_test_board_rev1_connected1.jpg
2023-11-05T01:58:42 < kdehl> https://aws.dose.se/files/arm/arm32_test_board_rev1_connected2.jpg
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2023-11-05T02:34:02 < kdehl> Ah. Works well with the other ST-link v2 programmer too.
2023-11-05T02:34:04 < kdehl> https://aws.dose.se/files/arm/arm32_test_board_rev1_connected3.jpg
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2023-11-05T02:34:25 < kdehl> Now I need to know how to blink a LED.
2023-11-05T02:34:35 < kdehl> That's a mission for tomorrow.
2023-11-05T02:36:20 < kdehl> I love how it seems ARM controllers have the same ridiculous number of programming methods as AVR (which I'm used to).
2023-11-05T02:42:08 < ventYl> I'd say that they have even more methods as many older AVRs didn't have debugger port
2023-11-05T02:42:58 < ventYl> if I was you, before starting writing blinky, I'd set up gdb + openocd + stlink
2023-11-05T02:43:28 < ventYl> this will give you nearly desktop software development experience
2023-11-05T03:18:03 < Ecco> zyp: Makes a lot of sense. Thanks!
2023-11-05T03:28:54 < qyx> kdehl: your board is a very interesting mix of components, 12p caps for XTAL huge as the ego of our new PM, yet the 0.1u/1u caps for rs232 transceiver in 0402 or whatever it is
2023-11-05T03:29:08 < qyx> and a huge xtal
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2023-11-05T08:05:25 < qyx> zyp: this is something I am currently considering https://bin.jvnv.net/file/F3j8l/backplane1_1.png
2023-11-05T08:06:04 < qyx> this time I was thinking a bit more about routing when deciding on the pinout
2023-11-05T08:08:03 < qyx> CD is card detect and I am thinking about doing it the same as on CC lines - it will be pulled on the backplane to 5 V with a variable value resistor to communicate some basic info to the card
2023-11-05T08:08:23 < qyx> the card will pull it down to gnd and measure the voltage
2023-11-05T08:08:49 < qyx> to know it is fully inserted
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2023-11-05T08:09:59 < qyx> CH is chassis and is not routed along, it goes to the edge of the backplane where screws are
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2023-11-05T09:47:47 < qyx> now the question is if and how to connect the two power busses to be short tolerant
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2023-11-05T12:45:10 < kdehl> qyx: Yup. I just picked whatever JLC had in stock.
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2023-11-05T12:53:20 < qyx> I am pretty sure jlc has all those common parts in reasonable packages
2023-11-05T12:53:52 < qyx> zyp: probably the final one https://bin.jvnv.net/file/YHXeM/backplane2.png
2023-11-05T12:54:56 < antto> so uhm... in terms of MCU arm cortex performance (with a slight more weight on floating point operations), M33 should be slightly better than M4?
2023-11-05T12:55:40 < antto> or is it "same sh*t"
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2023-11-05T12:59:23 < zyp> qyx, did you change to 3U?
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2023-11-05T13:15:32 < qyx> zyp: yeah
2023-11-05T13:15:43 < qyx> 70 mm depth, 3U heiht
2023-11-05T13:17:57 < zyp> ah
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2023-11-05T13:18:16 < zyp> aren't these connectors gonna eat a bunch of your usable depth?
2023-11-05T13:19:38 < qyx> probably yes, but now I am not limited by pcb area, I am limited by the lack of front panel space for connectors
2023-11-05T13:19:52 < qyx> also, most of the cards will have 2 modules at most
2023-11-05T13:20:10 < qyx> so only 24 mm will be wasted by backplane connectors
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2023-11-05T14:53:38 < kdehl> qyx: Perhaps. I just chose the first basic part I could find.
2023-11-05T14:53:47 < kdehl> But whatever. It's just a test board.
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2023-11-05T16:11:30 < Ecco> What's the point of removing islands on copper pours?
2023-11-05T16:12:55 < jpa-> what's the point of keeping them?
2023-11-05T16:15:04 < Ecco> :-D
2023-11-05T16:15:27 < Ecco> I guess there's less copper to etch? But indeed, I don't see how this matters
2023-11-05T16:17:58 < jpa-> it probably doesn't for your design
2023-11-05T16:18:42 < jpa-> if you have electrical isolation requirements or a high frequency design, you probably want to remove them
2023-11-05T16:18:53 < Ecco> Makes sense
2023-11-05T16:19:01 < jpa-> if you are making the PCB yourself by CNC routing, you'll get islands whether you want them or not
2023-11-05T16:19:19 < Ecco> Good point
2023-11-05T16:36:58 < tct> moin
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2023-11-05T16:55:54 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/AFCV2ZB.png
2023-11-05T16:56:07 < Ecco> Why no capacitor around the crystal?
2023-11-05T16:56:51 < jpa-> what part number?
2023-11-05T16:56:58 < Ecco> Oh
2023-11-05T16:56:58 < Ecco> Oh
2023-11-05T16:57:03 < Ecco> The devices include internal programmable capacitances that can be used to trim the crystal frequency, to compensate the PCB parasitic one.
2023-11-05T16:57:06 < Ecco> STM32BWA
2023-11-05T16:57:16 < Ecco> WBA
2023-11-05T16:57:42 < Ecco> That's neat
2023-11-05T16:57:46 < Ecco> I wonder why tho
2023-11-05T16:57:58 < Ecco> Is it a "new" thing that ST will implement on all MCUs from now on?
2023-11-05T16:58:00 < jbo> because different crystals need different loading capacities
2023-11-05T16:58:02 < Ecco> Or is there a specific reason?
2023-11-05T16:58:28 < Ecco> No, I mean, I wonder why it's not as it was before (i.e. you pick the crystal, so you pick the capacitors)
2023-11-05T16:58:32 < jpa-> could be because BLE needs rather accurate clock in standby, as the RX and TX need to agree on when to wake up
2023-11-05T16:58:37 < Ecco> I wonder why it's built in
2023-11-05T16:58:40 < jbo> what jpa- said
2023-11-05T16:58:54 < jpa-> though they could trim it by adjustable divider, so i'm not sure that is the entire reason
2023-11-05T16:58:57 < jbo> plus ST is really trying to do everything
2023-11-05T16:59:07 < jbo> less BOM :D
2023-11-05T16:59:19 < Ecco> So they're like "we know you're goign to fuck up when picking the capacitors, so we're going to do it for you"?
2023-11-05T16:59:33 < jbo> most definitely not that IMHO
2023-11-05T16:59:34 < Ecco> oh, I'm not complaining that I don't have to bother with those capacitors
2023-11-05T17:00:34 < jpa-> cap picking is just best-effort in any case, trimming will improve accuracy tenfold
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2023-11-05T17:33:17 < karlp> it's actualyl reallyu lax, you can get +- 500ppm or something iirc.
2023-11-05T17:34:41 < Ecco> what's trimming?
2023-11-05T17:35:00 < Ecco> Also, how do you guys hook GNDDETECT on SWD connectors?
2023-11-05T17:35:01 < Ecco> https://www.reddit.com/r/embedded/comments/nji1yy/how_do_i_use_swdjtag_ground_detect/
2023-11-05T17:35:48 < Ecco> On the Nucleo board I'm looking at, there's a NON-fitted solder bridge to GND, so it's effectively left floating
2023-11-05T17:38:48 < karlp> I've never connected it,
2023-11-05T17:38:58 < karlp> but then again, I don't normally put that connector on ...
2023-11-05T17:39:03 < Ecco> That makes sense I guess
2023-11-05T17:39:17 < Ecco> I guess this comment makes the most sense: https://www.reddit.com/r/embedded/comments/nji1yy/comment/gz8j3c7/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
2023-11-05T17:40:06 < Ecco> (you can use it as an input on your MCU to dynamically re-assign the SWD GPIOs to SWD AF, but otherwise just ground it)
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2023-11-05T17:56:13 < Ecco> Who's in charge of driving SWD CLK? I assume it's the debug adapter?
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2023-11-05T18:21:48 < PaulFertser> Ecco: sure
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2023-11-05T18:43:26 < Ecco> thanks :)
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2023-11-05T18:54:20 < Ecco> In ActiveBOM, some items are grouped and some are not
2023-11-05T18:54:21 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/xPVU4EL.png
2023-11-05T18:54:26 < Ecco> What did I fuck up?
2023-11-05T18:54:36 < Ecco> Why aren't all the TPs on a single line?
2023-11-05T18:54:51 < jpa-> maybe they have different value?
2023-11-05T18:54:55 < Ecco> (well, the fact that I'll need to get those out of the BoM is another subject, I have the same problem with headers)
2023-11-05T18:55:11 < jpa-> i tend to put the testpoint purpose in the value field, which does cause them to be ungrouped
2023-11-05T18:55:31 < Ecco> Hmm, interesting
2023-11-05T18:55:38 < Ecco> I mught have done the exact same thing
2023-11-05T18:56:14 < Ecco> Well I gave them all a different "Commetn"
2023-11-05T18:56:31 < Ecco> Which is what I assume you meant by value (that field is usually used to show the value for passives indeed)
2023-11-05T18:57:03 < jpa-> heh, how silly of altium to call that comment ;)
2023-11-05T18:57:04 < Ecco> Ok, so that makes sense! But then for TPs I just want them out of the BoM, so that's easy
2023-11-05T18:57:11 < jpa-> yeah
2023-11-05T18:57:17 < Ecco> but I also have headers
2023-11-05T18:57:24 < Ecco> well, actually i'll find another way
2023-11-05T18:57:38 < Ecco> (in my schematics it makes sense to show headers as 2 pin headers)
2023-11-05T18:58:04 < Ecco> (but in practice I'll buy a 2 x N connector, just because it's easier to handle than N 2x1)
2023-11-05T18:58:17 < Ecco> but thanks for the explanation jpa!
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2023-11-05T19:58:46 < nomorekaki> kdehl: did you hello world the board already?
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2023-11-05T20:19:06 < machinehum> Can you damage a PC by shorting a USB port?
2023-11-05T20:19:20 < machinehum> Or is it safe to say like 99% of PCs have some protection there
2023-11-05T20:20:58 < PaulFertser> A USB port should be capable of surviving that according to the official USB specs...
2023-11-05T20:21:09 < machinehum> That's what I figure
2023-11-05T20:25:41 < nomorekaki> I have seen a picture where old computer has usb port glowing red
2023-11-05T20:26:10 < nomorekaki> 90s era
2023-11-05T20:28:59 < PaulFertser> I have seen pictures of aliens.
2023-11-05T20:29:42 -!- nerozero [~nerozero@87.253.63.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
2023-11-05T20:31:12 < PaulFertser> Once I fed 50 V into a PC motherboard USB port. The USB controller was no longer working but other than that the motherboard was OK.
2023-11-05T20:32:50 < PaulFertser> (it was an attempt to debug a 48 V DC telecom UPS system with its GND attached to battery + by design for some current shunts measurement reasons)
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2023-11-05T21:27:54 < specing> nomorekaki: someone was too enthusiastically pressing the turbo button :D
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2023-11-05T22:40:55 < kdehl> nomorekaki: Haven't had the time yet. I had like six different PCBs in that last order. Haven't even tested all of them yet.
2023-11-05T22:46:38 < nomorekaki> pics
2023-11-05T23:14:09 < kdehl> https://aws.dose.se/files/2023-11-order-partial.jpg
2023-11-05T23:15:25 < kdehl> +2 more that I don't have in front of me right now.
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2023-11-05T23:22:07 < Laurence_b> Linux developer meetup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo#/media/File:Bonobos_Kanzi_and_Panbanisha_with_Sue_Savage-Rumbaugh.jpg
2023-11-05T23:54:27 < antto> fakenews Laurence_b, there's not enough beard in there
--- Day changed ma marras 06 2023
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2023-11-06T10:32:32 < qyx> not bad at all https://bin.jvnv.net/file/rori4/Screenshot_2023-11-06_09-32-12.png
2023-11-06T10:39:23 < jpa-> i think you might be able to fit more parts in there
2023-11-06T10:42:47 < qyx> I am running out of space
2023-11-06T10:45:08 < qyx> so front panel to backplane dimension is 60 + 12.75 + 12.75 mm according to Schroff, front panel to PCB is 2.54 mm according to IEC and PCB to backplane is 10 mm according to Amphenol Metral specs
2023-11-06T10:46:05 < qyx> so the PCB length should be 72.96 mm if I am doing the math correctly
2023-11-06T10:46:11 < qyx> I am tempted to round it to 73 mm
2023-11-06T10:47:26  * qyx sings Shakira
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2023-11-06T11:17:43 < zyp> jpa-, so, when a motor specs a rated voltage, a rated current and a rated power that's a bit lower than the product of those, as well as a peak current that's three times the rated current, what does those numbers really mean in practice?
2023-11-06T11:21:07 < qyx> a power factor < 1?
2023-11-06T11:22:26 < zyp> there's also a rated speed and a back emf constant whose product results in a lower voltage than the rated voltage
2023-11-06T11:24:26 < zyp> ah, rated current * rated speed * Ke matches the rated power
2023-11-06T11:25:25 < zyp> so I guess rated voltage is fairly meaningless, and the rest of the numbers are consistent
2023-11-06T11:26:04 < karlp> yeah, I was wondering abotu voltage too, it seemd like unless you have enough voltage to break down insulation between windings, it should be irrelevant?
2023-11-06T11:46:58 < jpa-> zyp: rated current and rated voltage apply to the rated RPM, which is often the best efficiency point
2023-11-06T11:47:27 < jpa-> peak current is the maximum you can push, though if you do it for long it could overheat; if you have motor temperature sensor, you can control based on that
2023-11-06T11:48:03 < jpa-> and rated voltage you can exceed, though at some point the bearings will suffer if you run much higher than rated RPM
2023-11-06T11:49:14 < jpa-> the differences between the values are the losses, e.g. (rated_voltage - rated_speed * backemf) / rated_current = motor_esr
2023-11-06T12:41:58 < zyp> ah
2023-11-06T12:43:03 < zyp> so for the one I'm looking at, that'd be something like (48V - 40V) / 9.5A = 0.84ohm or so, does that sound reasonable?
2023-11-06T12:51:17 < zyp> I guess that implies that the dissipated power heating the motor is the product of motor current squared and motor esr
2023-11-06T12:51:48 < zyp> which means it'd produce nine times as much heat at peak current/torque as at rated
2023-11-06T12:52:59 < jpa-> yes, sounds reasonable
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2023-11-06T12:54:32 < jpa-> if they post efficiency curve, based on the values you could expect it to peak at around 83%
2023-11-06T12:56:01 < zyp> if I had specs for the max winding temperature, thermal resistances and thermal masses, I could work out how long/hard I could drive it before it overheats
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2023-11-06T12:59:25 < zyp> hmm, the small motor I have should have an ESR of 4.2 ohm then
2023-11-06T12:59:40 < jpa-> what does it measure?
2023-11-06T12:59:59 < zyp> yeah, I'm also curious, I'll check when I get home
2023-11-06T13:00:28 < jpa-> for small 48V motors a few ohms is pretty common
2023-11-06T13:00:43 < zyp> how do I measure? do I get the right result if i just measure between U and V+W or similar?
2023-11-06T13:00:54 < zyp> this one is 24V
2023-11-06T13:01:25 < jpa-> i just measure between two wires and multiply by 1.5
2023-11-06T13:01:46 < jpa-> because that will give one phase in parallel with two phases in series
2023-11-06T13:02:05 < jpa-> but yeah, U and V+W and multiply by 2 will work also
2023-11-06T13:02:51 < jpa-> hmm, i guess it depends on whether you define it as a "delta" or "Y" wired
2023-11-06T13:03:38 < jpa-> even though that doesn't really matter for actually driving it, but it matters for how you define the rated voltage
2023-11-06T13:04:14 < zyp> I don't think delta vs wye matters, I figure we're not talking about current per winding but the current vector as viewed from the outside
2023-11-06T13:06:46 < jpa-> that would make sense, but is that the way the motor specs are written? because i think usually they just assume a dumb 6-step driver
2023-11-06T13:06:54 < jpa-> i'm not sure if that actually makes any difference though
2023-11-06T13:07:40 < zyp> a 6 step driver is still driving 6 current vectors…
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2023-11-06T13:09:18 < zyp> I figure if you set U high and V+W low, assuming a star topology, you've got all the current flowing in the U winding and half the current in each of the V and W windings
2023-11-06T13:10:11 < zyp> and with the voltage across it as well, it seems intuitive that the ESR is R_U + (R_V || R_W)
2023-11-06T13:10:43 < zyp> i.e. 1.5x the resistance of each individual winding
2023-11-06T13:11:05 < zyp> so 3/4 the resistance of what you get if you measure between U and V and leave W open
2023-11-06T13:13:57 < qyx> anyone used those LANxxxx switches? do they have a default config to just switch between all ports?
2023-11-06T13:31:53 < zyp> I've used one of the KSZxxxx switches and IIRC they can be strapped to either autostart as a plain switch or wait to be configured first
2023-11-06T13:32:28 < zyp> I figure it's likely they'd be similar
2023-11-06T13:32:59 < zyp> (although, even though both are microchip, I know one originated from smsc and the other from micrel)
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2023-11-06T13:49:47 < karlp> lol, freertos task starvation.
2023-11-06T13:50:15 < karlp> somehow idle task is 16% cpu, "firmware" task (handling keypresses) is getting _zero_
2023-11-06T13:50:52 < mawk> I'm trying to flash some firmware on my board with a brand new stlink v3, and it cannot get past the verify step because for some reason it reset the board inbetween
2023-11-06T13:51:08 < mawk> so the application is running and doesn't want to halt and the verify fails
2023-11-06T13:51:19 < mawk> with the jlink it works perfectly though
2023-11-06T13:59:17 < mawk> using the cube programmer it works fine
2023-11-06T14:01:51 < qyx> karlp: how do you measure that? I find it pretty unreliable, you cannot detect overflows and when it happens it reports wrong %
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2023-11-06T14:20:16 < qyx> hm idk if I should fanout the metral first before connecting to planes or let the planes pour around the pins
2023-11-06T14:20:23 < qyx> both look weird
2023-11-06T14:21:20 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/AHKue/Screenshot_2023-11-06_13-21-04.png
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2023-11-06T14:35:21 < karlp> at the moment, this was just a very  basic manual printing with vTaskGetRunTimeStats
2023-11-06T14:35:31 < karlp> it was a bit of a w.t.f is going on.
2023-11-06T14:35:39 < karlp> i was led to believe this project was "mostly done"
2023-11-06T14:35:48 < karlp> it appears .... not to be quite as ready as people might have believed
2023-11-06T14:36:09 < qyx> yes vTaskGetRunTimeStats returns wrong stats to me
2023-11-06T14:36:13 < karlp> (there's an ir receiver task that was/is busy looping, so all tasks lower priority were getting.... zero)
2023-11-06T14:36:16 < qyx> it doesn't handle overflows properly
2023-11-06T14:36:27 < karlp> overflows of what?
2023-11-06T14:36:34 < qyx> but yeah, that doesn't answer your issue
2023-11-06T14:36:47 < qyx> it captures a timer you have to provide
2023-11-06T14:36:52 < qyx> in a callback
2023-11-06T14:36:53 < karlp> yes...
2023-11-06T14:37:47 < qyx> until the timer overflows, percentages were ok
2023-11-06T14:38:07 < karlp> eh, it's a pretty gross routine anyway, 
2023-11-06T14:38:27 < karlp> bright side, you can in theory track very short processes, but pc sampling probably would hav ebeen good enough for me, if not better.
2023-11-06T14:38:34 < karlp> I want to get pc samplign setup in this environment.
2023-11-06T14:38:34 < qyx> or hm, until the counter in the task TCB overflows, I don't remmeber exactly, I concluded it needs some fixing to get correct % usage
2023-11-06T14:39:07 < karlp> well, i verified that my task was simply never getting run, which was restoring some of mny sanity :)
2023-11-06T14:40:17 < qyx> I discovered similar issue recently, when I disconnect CAN, some tasks starve to death
2023-11-06T14:40:32 < qyx> a that's sad
2023-11-06T14:46:53 < karlp> what can adapter should I buy for my laptop? I'm looking at https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005455241016.html but are there other good options?
2023-11-06T14:47:30 < karlp> this looks reasonableish as well https://www.crowdsupply.com/meatpi-electronics/ollie-v2
2023-11-06T14:49:15 < qyx> a trashcan
2023-11-06T14:49:23 < qyx> but it is not done yet
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2023-11-06T14:50:16 < qyx> the aliexpress one looks good, G4 and USB-C, FDCAN capable
2023-11-06T14:50:31 < zyp> yeah, looks nice
2023-11-06T14:52:06 < karlp> waveshare has a dual one, but it's either with canfd  or with isolation, not both: https://www.waveshare.com/product/usb-can-b.htm
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2023-11-06T17:10:36 < WernherVonData> Hi, is it worthy to use STM32Cube IDE, while I'm still learner? Saw the IDE got a whole UI for setting pins, interrupts etc. and tbh I'm confused if it's a good tool for start. Using AC6 from OpenSTM32
2023-11-06T17:18:01 < jbo> WernherVonData, I guess opinions on this will differ vastly. Personally, I don't like the STM32Cube stuff and I am glad that it didn't exist back when I was learning STM32 stuff
2023-11-06T17:18:36 < jbo> I have fired up STM32Cube a few times in the last few years but it was always to do the clock tree config
2023-11-06T17:22:01 < jpa-> i wonder why i can't get STM32F417 PTP timestamp interrupt to trigger; from debugger i see  ETH_MACSR = 0x200 (TSTS set), ETH_MACIMR = 0x200 (TSTIM set), ETH_PTPTSCR = 0x3 (TSITE was set but was unset by timestamp event), IRQ number 61, NVIC_ISER1 = 0x3f00a020 (irq enabled), NVIC_ISPR1 = 0 (irq not pending)
2023-11-06T17:22:14 < jpa-> it seems i'm missing some enable bit between the ETH and NVIC but can't find it
2023-11-06T17:22:25 < jpa-> ethernet DMA interrupts work ok
2023-11-06T17:23:51 < WernherVonData> jbo thank you
2023-11-06T17:26:08 < jbo> jpa-, I haven't touched ethernet on STM32 in quite a few years :(
2023-11-06T17:31:32 < zyp> jpa-, I'm measuring 2.6 ohm between U/V and 2.0 ohm between U/(V+W)
2023-11-06T17:34:05 < zyp> which seems consistent with your 1.5x and 2x factors, but I don't understand where they come from
2023-11-06T17:34:55 < jpa-> per-phase resistance
2023-11-06T17:35:09 < jpa-> err
2023-11-06T17:35:31 < jpa-> i mean per-phase in delta
2023-11-06T17:35:54 < jpa-> or per-coil
2023-11-06T17:36:18 < zyp> I'm not sure why per-coil numbers are relevant
2023-11-06T17:37:07 < jpa-> i'm not sure either and my head is hurting from all day debugging stupid problems, so i can't figure it out
2023-11-06T17:37:15 < zyp> haha
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2023-11-06T18:24:23 < qyx> so an ALS sensor was reading near zero values
2023-11-06T18:25:05 < qyx> after an inspection it was found out there is no ALS sensor in the device
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2023-11-06T18:58:47 < zyp> is there really any light there if there's no sensor to detect it?
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2023-11-06T19:02:32 < PhantomWork> Question: does it matter if you make a ground plane or a VCC plane under the stm32f103? The 3.3v plane would make the layout simpler..
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2023-11-06T19:35:57 < zyp> sure, you can have either, neither or both depending on what you're doing
2023-11-06T19:50:59 < nomorekaki> datasheets have a notice section in case the chip requires a particular plane under the chip
2023-11-06T19:52:07 < nomorekaki> idk if I would do a full plane under a mcu though with vcc
2023-11-06T19:52:50 < BrainDamage> given sufficient bypass caps on either planes, it shouldn't make a difference if it's vcc or gnd
2023-11-06T19:54:15 < nomorekaki> BrainDamage: how about noise? lets say you want all the bits that adc can get? but if you are doing something like that you would be asking the question
2023-11-06T19:54:44 < nomorekaki> *wouldn't be asking
2023-11-06T19:56:03 < BrainDamage> even in that case, the situation is symmetrical for vcc or gnd
2023-11-06T19:56:30 < nomorekaki> if analog circuits on board are referenced to gnd?
2023-11-06T19:57:12 < BrainDamage> you're supposed to have a separate analog island for the analog gnd
2023-11-06T19:57:32 < BrainDamage> so the "analog ground" is not the same as the "digital ground"
2023-11-06T19:57:39 < BrainDamage> and they are connected by a single bridge
2023-11-06T19:58:07 < BrainDamage> however, within the analog island, you can again swap analog vcc with analog gnd
2023-11-06T19:59:12 < BrainDamage> read: the same practices you do for gnd have to be made for vcc, because they are the same thing, neither is special
2023-11-06T20:04:17 < Ecco> Does Mouser offer free shipping?
2023-11-06T20:04:23 < Ecco> I thought they did for orders above $50
2023-11-06T20:07:31 < Ecco> WTF
2023-11-06T20:07:33 < Ecco> Arrow says "Orders placed on www.arrow.com over $100 (before taxes/fees) are eligible for free 2-day shipping (US domestic orders only) and orders over $50 are eligible for free priority international shipping (international orders), excluding those containing hazardous materials. "
2023-11-06T20:07:49 < Ecco> So wait, international shipping is free at $50, but domestic has to be above $100??? WTF?
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2023-11-06T20:14:55 < qyx> yes mouser is free over 50e to here
2023-11-06T20:21:38 < aandrew> digikey does that for Canada but apparently not for US
2023-11-06T20:21:48 < aandrew> just placed my first US order with them, $7 for 4 day shipping via UPS
2023-11-06T20:21:55 < aandrew> same for fedex, double that for USPS
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2023-11-06T20:26:14 < jpa-> weird
2023-11-06T20:27:38 < jpa-> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/digikey-free-international-shipping-but-no-free-usa-shipping/   looks like it's not unique to arrow either
2023-11-06T20:30:02 < jpa-> ah, so you get free shipping from digikey in USA but only if you order by fax
2023-11-06T20:30:06 < jpa-> sounds reasonable
2023-11-06T20:32:13 < aandrew> HAHAHAHA are you fucking serious
2023-11-06T20:32:51 < jpa-> https://www.digikey.fi/-/media/PDF/Help/Order%20Form/order-form_en-US.pdf?la=en
2023-11-06T20:33:56 < aandrew> that is so mind bogglingly backwards it hurts
2023-11-06T20:35:16 < benishor> fax fax baby
2023-11-06T20:37:34 < jpa-> still can't beat farnell, you get free shipping that includes 5 huge boxes and 5 separate invoices
2023-11-06T20:52:27 < specing> jpa-: I remember when they shipped one flux pen in a huge box
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2023-11-06T20:57:16 < BrainDamage> I remember getting samples from maxim and they were in a matrioska of boxes
2023-11-06T20:57:34 < BrainDamage> like 5 nested boxes
2023-11-06T21:01:32 < nomorekaki> remember ordering samples from analol
2023-11-06T21:02:11 < nomorekaki> next day courier was at door asking me to sign a package
2023-11-06T21:02:24 < nomorekaki> and it was free :O
2023-11-06T21:02:49 < nomorekaki> no wait.. linear not analol
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2023-11-06T21:10:24 < WernherVonData> I started learning interrupts, I was able to handle the interrupts for UART, however I have a problem with setup interrupt for my user button on my Nucleo F0 board. https://pastebin.com/7L2gLPyi - trying to change my morse code program to change sign upon interrupt generated by button instead of polling. Do you see what might be an issue here? The button is connected to GPIO Pin 13. Currently when I'm pushing the button the program hangs and led 
2023-11-06T21:10:24 < WernherVonData> stops blinking.
2023-11-06T21:11:52 < Ecco> Ha cool link jpa-
2023-11-06T21:11:59 < Ecco> Actually, I might just send them a check
2023-11-06T21:12:05 < Ecco> for some reason, banks in the US live in the stone age
2023-11-06T21:12:10 < Ecco> but they become "digital"
2023-11-06T21:12:18 < Ecco> so they won't let you do SEPA transfers like in EU
2023-11-06T21:12:27 < Ecco> *but* they will mail a check *on your behalf* for free
2023-11-06T21:12:39 < jpa-> WernherVonData: you probably need to clear the interrupt flag somehow
2023-11-06T21:12:39 < Ecco> like the "US" way to send money
2023-11-06T21:12:41 < Ecco> just like in EU
2023-11-06T21:12:51 < Ecco> you log into your online bank account, select a recipient and the amount
2023-11-06T21:13:03 < Ecco> *but* behind the scenes, an actual paper check is mail to the recipient!
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2023-11-06T21:13:51 < jpa-> hmm, apparently the HAL driver shoudl do clear the flag by itself
2023-11-06T21:15:08 < Ecco> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Samtec/FTSH-107-01-F-DV-K
2023-11-06T21:15:16 < Ecco> WTFBBQ: $5 for a 14 pin header connector
2023-11-06T21:15:35 < jpa-> WernherVonData: it might be a good point to get a debugger working, it will show you what is happening
2023-11-06T21:16:02 < Ecco> I wonder 1/ How much crack cocaine the people at Samtec take per day? 2/ Why the F did ST (or was it ARM) pick them for their debug connectors
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2023-11-06T21:17:54 < jpa-> Ecco: i've never seen anyone use ones with weird shrouding like that, but other than that SMD 1.27 mm headers are not that expensive
2023-11-06T21:18:10 < jpa-> but if you want cheap PCB side and expensive cable, take tagconnect
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2023-11-06T21:20:04 < jpa-> https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/span-style-background-color-ff0-Pin-span-Headers_Hanbo-Electronic-HB-PH9-12727PB2GOB_C6332251.html   https://www.digikey.fi/en/products/detail/cnc-tech/3220-14-0300-00/3883270
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2023-11-06T21:40:15 < WernherVonData> jpa- indeed something is fishy there - created a function for interrupt directly EXTI4_15_IRQHandler - and THERE the debugger went and program stays there forever. Maybe I misunderstood with this function HAL_GPIO_EXTI_Callback (I understood that HAL already handles the interrupt by itself) - and maybe it does, but it does not clear the flag? Also I read the datasheet a little and set explicitly flags which are stated to toggle hardware 
2023-11-06T21:40:15 < WernherVonData> interrupt for EXTI (was doing it yesterday, but without success then)
2023-11-06T21:45:53 < qyx> usually you have to clear interrupt flags
2023-11-06T21:47:06 < qyx> if you don't, you will keep cycling in the handler
2023-11-06T21:51:26 < machinehum> I giveup this isn't blowing up https://github.com/o7-machinehum/ovrdrive/blob/master/ee/ovrdrive/out/R0.3/ovrdrive.pdf
2023-11-06T21:55:33 < machinehum> https://imgur.com/a/iFuJGma
2023-11-06T21:55:38 < machinehum> Gets hot do
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2023-11-06T22:19:04 < WernherVonData> qyx found it - read EXTI description and it appears I had to clear proper bit in Pending Register, then found this function in HAL which just wraps it - __HAL_GPIO_EXTI_CLEAR_FLAG
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2023-11-06T22:46:28 < machinehum> Anyone know of a compound that will ignite at 160C
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2023-11-06T23:48:39 < Mangy_Dog> magnisim would :p
2023-11-06T23:48:54 < Mangy_Dog> most of the isms would
--- Day changed ti marras 07 2023
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2023-11-07T00:56:59 < Ecco> How do you guys clean up hand-assembled prototype PCBs?
2023-11-07T00:58:58 < Ecco> Here's what I do: 1/ Dash of isopropyl alcool 2/ Electric toothbrush w/ soft brush 3/ Shake to remove excess alcool 4/ Dump into hot water (!!!) 5/ Pour soap on toothbrush 6/ Brush PCB with soap (aim for a lot of foam) 7/ Rinse under a lot of hot water 8/ Rinse with the toothbrush to remove all soap 9 / Shake PCB to remove as much water as possible 10/ Hold PCB with small pliers 11/ Put PCB under very hot 
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2023-11-07T00:59:04 < Ecco> hair dryer for like 3 minutes on each side
2023-11-07T00:59:20 < Ecco> It works very well (PCB come out super clean), and it doesn't seem to damage anything. But I feel like using water is rather unconventionnal
2023-11-07T00:59:49 < Ecco> (I tried using only alcool but it always leave a lot of residue. In my experience, nothing beats soap to remove flux)
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2023-11-07T01:08:22 < karlp> a) don't.
2023-11-07T01:08:29 < karlp> super effective.
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2023-11-07T01:13:04 < qyx> so this china's MEIG LINK LTE Cat I modem proved very reliable
2023-11-07T01:13:34 < qyx> now I am hesitating to replace it with a ublox
2023-11-07T01:13:58 < karlp> ncie.
2023-11-07T01:14:11 < karlp> where did you source it?
2023-11-07T01:14:15 < qyx> tme
2023-11-07T01:14:19 < qyx> SL320
2023-11-07T01:14:38 < qyx> sorry no
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2023-11-07T01:15:06 < qyx> SLM320
2023-11-07T01:15:34 < karlp> using modemmanager? or somethign else?
2023-11-07T01:16:13 < qyx> openwrt 3G/UMTS pppd thing over ttyUSB
2023-11-07T01:17:03 < karlp> cool.  I never got uqmi and uwan or whatever it was to work, but modemmanager worked first go with teh quacktel
2023-11-07T01:17:18 < karlp> meh, it's still $20
2023-11-07T01:17:35 < karlp> what's the point if they're all in the $150-20 range.
2023-11-07T01:17:55 < qyx> it was in stock and minipci-e
2023-11-07T01:18:15 < Ecco> karlp: why "don't"?
2023-11-07T01:18:25 < karlp> because it's way more work for nothing?
2023-11-07T01:18:48 < Ecco> well, the problem is that I tend to use flux liberally
2023-11-07T01:18:55 < Ecco> and then afterwards it's very, very sticky
2023-11-07T01:19:07 < Ecco> so if I don't clean it up, the circuit most likely works fine, but it's really gross to handl
2023-11-07T01:19:22 < karlp> put it in the case ;)
2023-11-07T01:19:25 < Ecco> like, it sticks to my fingers all the time, I need to constantly wash my hands
2023-11-07T01:19:34 < Ecco> hahaha well, I guess if I had one that'd make sense :)
2023-11-07T01:19:48 < Ecco> But seriously, you recommend *not* cleaning up the flux? Or are you just kidding?
2023-11-07T01:19:56 < karlp> I don't clean shit.
2023-11-07T01:20:09 < Ecco> well, I guess that makes sense in some cases
2023-11-07T01:20:11 < karlp> if something is meant to last 15 years it gets professionally assembled.
2023-11-07T01:20:16 < Ecco> true
2023-11-07T01:20:17 < qyx> I use a no-clean flux and I am always cleaning it
2023-11-07T01:20:28 < Ecco> it's not about the "if I leave flux it'll eventually corrode the PCB"
2023-11-07T01:20:49 < Ecco> it's really just "its really gross if I don't clean it up to the point where I don't want to ever touch the PCB afterwards"
2023-11-07T01:21:34 < qyx> just clean it
2023-11-07T01:22:35 < qyx> also it looks like I don't even know the question
2023-11-07T01:23:01 < machinehum> Mangy_Dog: Would ignite?
2023-11-07T01:23:10 < Ecco> the question is "how do you clean hand-assembled PCBs?"
2023-11-07T01:23:17 < Ecco> I use a lot of soap and water
2023-11-07T01:23:24 < Ecco> then dry the shit out of the PCB afterwards
2023-11-07T01:23:34 < Ecco> it's very efficient at cleaning, and doesn't seem to damage the PCB
2023-11-07T01:23:47 < Ecco> but I'm not sure if it's a moronic thing to do or not
2023-11-07T01:34:15 < Mangy_Dog> ecco best aproach i do is heat up the board a little... to melt all the flux or soften it, then wash with IPA... Or even acetone sometimes... to get flux out from underneath packages or dense pins liek a qfp, heat the board with hot air again to about 70-100c and drip ipa into the pins, and let it boil the flux out...
2023-11-07T01:34:40 < Mangy_Dog> and sometimes ive even washed boards with soap and water :P
2023-11-07T01:35:11 < Mangy_Dog> soap and water is fine too tbh. As long as youre not dealing with any mechanical parts like pots
2023-11-07T01:35:24 < Mangy_Dog> pcbs with sealed packages are fine
2023-11-07T01:35:54 < Ecco> cool :)
2023-11-07T01:36:00 < Ecco> I don't have a board heater
2023-11-07T01:36:05 < Ecco> Might need to get one
2023-11-07T01:36:16 < Mangy_Dog> just get a hot air reflow gun
2023-11-07T01:36:21 < Ecco> Wouldn't acetone melt some stuff? Especially if heated?
2023-11-07T01:36:22 < qyx> I am using warm water instead
2023-11-07T01:36:32 < qyx> and ipa
2023-11-07T01:36:32 < Ecco> qyx: Oh so you use water too?
2023-11-07T01:36:33 < Ecco> Ok cool
2023-11-07T01:36:40 < Mangy_Dog> acetone might attack some plastic packages like again... pots.
2023-11-07T01:36:43  * Ecco might not be *that* dumb
2023-11-07T01:36:50 < qyx> it should be a de-mi water though
2023-11-07T01:36:54 < Mangy_Dog> but acetone doenst attack packages normally
2023-11-07T01:37:04 < Ecco> does it really matter to use RO/DI water?
2023-11-07T01:37:16 < Ecco> Mangy_Dog: Isn't this what they use to decap ICs?
2023-11-07T01:37:19 < Mangy_Dog> ecco di ro is cleaner water
2023-11-07T01:37:23 < Mangy_Dog> nope
2023-11-07T01:37:32 < Mangy_Dog> ICs are made of toucher materials
2023-11-07T01:37:32 < qyx> my water leaves no residue
2023-11-07T01:37:33 < Mangy_Dog> tougher
2023-11-07T01:37:45 < qyx> it only has higher iron content
2023-11-07T01:37:51 < Mangy_Dog> tap water might leave residue... but again you can always give it a little once over with ipa after
2023-11-07T01:38:02 < Ecco> yeah ok
2023-11-07T01:38:08 < Ecco> I guess if your tap water is very hard
2023-11-07T01:38:14 < Mangy_Dog> ours is
2023-11-07T01:38:15 < Mangy_Dog> :p
2023-11-07T01:38:15 < Ecco> but at that point it's purely cosmetic tho
2023-11-07T01:38:28 < qyx> I have a RO too but don't use it for that
2023-11-07T01:39:08 < Mangy_Dog> the only time water is really bad with electronics, is if theyre on...
2023-11-07T01:39:13 < Mangy_Dog> or submerged for a long time
2023-11-07T01:39:25 < Mangy_Dog> otherwise its fine
2023-11-07T01:39:29 < Mangy_Dog> 99% of the time
2023-11-07T01:39:31 < Ecco> ok, that's reassuring
2023-11-07T01:39:52 < Ecco> well, in my case the PCB is wet for like about a minute
2023-11-07T01:40:02 < Ecco> so it hopefully doesn't have time to rust
2023-11-07T01:40:04 < Mangy_Dog> yeah long time is like... many hours or even days
2023-11-07T01:40:09 < Ecco> speaking of which
2023-11-07T01:40:11 < Mangy_Dog> if you have salty water
2023-11-07T01:40:14 < Mangy_Dog> thats something else :p
2023-11-07T01:40:16 < Mangy_Dog> thats seconds
2023-11-07T01:40:17 < Ecco> have you guys tried rust on STM32s?
2023-11-07T01:40:42 < Mangy_Dog> not used rust
2023-11-07T01:41:35 < Mangy_Dog> any c# wpf/winforms peeps here got one issue id like to fix before bed
2023-11-07T01:41:47 < Mangy_Dog> https://pastebin.com/KndgFs8a
2023-11-07T01:42:07 < Ecco> Hmm, I don't know jack about C# sorry :-/
2023-11-07T01:42:12 < Mangy_Dog> i have a simple class for storing a displayed string and a hidden int value in a combobox...
2023-11-07T01:42:14 < Mangy_Dog> hehe its ok
2023-11-07T01:42:45 < Mangy_Dog> i want to set the item of the combobox shown, to the item with the hidden value of a number...
2023-11-07T01:43:04 < Mangy_Dog> i cant for the life of me figure out the syntax for that
2023-11-07T01:43:22 < Mangy_Dog> ive been at it for nearly 40 minutes
2023-11-07T01:47:56 < Mangy_Dog> finally found it!
2023-11-07T01:47:59 < Mangy_Dog> google that is
2023-11-07T01:48:59 < ventYl> doesn't every item has property which you can use to access curveID ?
2023-11-07T01:49:26 < Mangy_Dog> not in this instance
2023-11-07T01:49:39 < Mangy_Dog> its really annoying tbh ive been messing with this mix curve tool for a few days
2023-11-07T01:49:54 < Mangy_Dog> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/696475688521171004/1171110855203622972/image.png
2023-11-07T01:49:58 < ventYl> aaand, while adding, can't you tell it, that one of them is selected?
2023-11-07T01:50:13 < ventYl> I didn't touch any C# code for more than a decade, but QML works kind of similar
2023-11-07T01:50:13 < Mangy_Dog> but been rewriting whole sections a few times as frankly... its getting a little confusing
2023-11-07T01:50:50 < Mangy_Dog> yeah theres way to set the value selected in the combobox... that alone wasnt the issue
2023-11-07T01:51:11 < Mangy_Dog> though in this case, having a custom class inside the combo made it hard for mw to find syntax for it
2023-11-07T01:51:22 < Mangy_Dog> google found this.....
2023-11-07T01:51:23 < Mangy_Dog>                 foreach (curveSelectItem d in curveListCombo.Items)
2023-11-07T01:51:23 < Mangy_Dog>                 {
2023-11-07T01:51:23 < Mangy_Dog>                     if (d.returnIndex == _curveList_Index)
2023-11-07T01:51:23 < Mangy_Dog>                     {
2023-11-07T01:51:23 < Mangy_Dog>                         curveListCombo.SelectedItem = d;
2023-11-07T01:51:23 < Mangy_Dog>                         break;
2023-11-07T01:51:23 < Mangy_Dog>                     }
2023-11-07T01:51:24 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/HR9d3A9.png -> Would you guys have any idea what that chip might be?
2023-11-07T01:51:24 < Mangy_Dog>                 }
2023-11-07T01:51:36 < Mangy_Dog> sorry paste spam D:
2023-11-07T01:51:42 < ventYl> yeah, something like that
2023-11-07T01:51:52 < ventYl> here it is implementation dependent on how to do it
2023-11-07T01:52:01 < Mangy_Dog> ecoo a bga of some kind :p
2023-11-07T01:52:16 < ventYl> QML has internal indices you can obtain for each instance and then refer to it by this ID
2023-11-07T01:52:44 < Mangy_Dog> in this case my IDs are randomally generated UInt16s
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2023-11-07T01:53:02 < Mangy_Dog> there was a reason I did that instead of just naming them 1 2 3 4 5 6....
2023-11-07T01:53:09 < Mangy_Dog> cant for the life of me remember why ;p
2023-11-07T01:53:25 < Ecco> Mangy_Dog: I think it's a WLCSP actually. But BGA too :)
2023-11-07T01:53:25 < ventYl> so there's something like curveListCombo.setSelectedItemId(curveListCombo.getItemId(curveListItems[i])
2023-11-07T01:54:03 < ventYl> Mangy_Dog: these IDs are assigned by Qt/QML. Basically they are an offset into the array/vector of items in the combo box
2023-11-07T01:54:09 < Mangy_Dog> yeah i tried a for loop too at one point
2023-11-07T01:54:17 < Mangy_Dog> ahh
2023-11-07T01:54:25 < Mangy_Dog> i see what you mean now
2023-11-07T01:54:27 < ventYl> but that's C++, so different foundation
2023-11-07T01:54:32 < Mangy_Dog> well c#
2023-11-07T01:54:35 < Mangy_Dog> but yeah
2023-11-07T01:54:41 < Mangy_Dog> not sure this auto assigns ids
2023-11-07T01:54:54 < ventYl> I've had furious session with my code too
2023-11-07T01:54:57 < Mangy_Dog> there is index numbers of verious things arrays... lists... i think even comboboxes 
2023-11-07T01:55:04 < Mangy_Dog> but its a different thing to what im trying to match to
2023-11-07T01:55:11 < ventYl> when I was desperately trying to figure out how the shit using custom classes actually works
2023-11-07T01:55:23 < Mangy_Dog> the trouble with this is this mix curve thing is getting a bit complicated
2023-11-07T01:55:34 < Mangy_Dog> its kinda in three parts and trying to make all three parts work togethetr
2023-11-07T01:55:40 < ventYl> as bulk of it was written by a guy who vanished in chineese soup, was undocumented and by no means industry-standard code
2023-11-07T01:55:41 < Mangy_Dog> and im on SSRIs... and my brain is a fekking mess
2023-11-07T01:56:47 < ventYl> it took me some week to figure out WTF is going on, that the code is utter mess and has to be completely nuked
2023-11-07T01:56:59 < ventYl> then the application was not in buildable state for two weeks
2023-11-07T01:57:39 < Mangy_Dog> joy
2023-11-07T01:57:59 < Mangy_Dog> yeah ive rewritten this at least twice... and each time i go back to it... i cant even figure otu whats going on :p
2023-11-07T01:58:05 < ventYl> then I did it. application still did basically the same as before. but was some 3x faster and it took 100x less effort to change something in the UI
2023-11-07T01:58:15 < Mangy_Dog> so this time round... im actually writing a step by step doc of whats going on to help me keep track of it
2023-11-07T01:58:26 < ventYl> and for next month or so I wasn't sure about my architecture decision correctness
2023-11-07T01:59:10 < ventYl> well, all these GUI toolkits work the best if you can work with their abstractions, the less code you write to run the UI the better
2023-11-07T01:59:42 < ventYl> whenever you figure out that "I can't use this because it won't do what I need" it is usually a sign of bad architecture or misunderstanding the platform
2023-11-07T02:00:00 < Mangy_Dog> its only a couple of months into this app, that i found out that wpf is pretty much deprechiated now :p
2023-11-07T02:00:23 < Mangy_Dog> btw all this is for the new hardware monitor windows host app to work with the display i made
2023-11-07T02:00:37 < Mangy_Dog> along with widget control, im adding other features like a fan curve control system
2023-11-07T02:00:37 < Mangy_Dog> :p
2023-11-07T02:01:19 < Mangy_Dog> but at the moment its all UI work... prototyping ect... theres a little backend going on. But nothings really functioning beywoned the UI yet
2023-11-07T02:01:40 < ventYl> i've never had use for such application
2023-11-07T02:02:12 < ventYl> but my colleague is pursuing me to start working on such startup project because there are people out there who would like to have something like that
2023-11-07T02:02:39 < Mangy_Dog> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGYeBKm4DAI is the v1 version
2023-11-07T02:05:51 < ventYl> i love your accent :)
2023-11-07T02:10:02 < Mangy_Dog> :p
2023-11-07T02:10:11 < Mangy_Dog> anyway i got to do the bed thing now
2023-11-07T02:10:13 < Mangy_Dog> its late
2023-11-07T02:15:29 < ventYl> yeah, good idea
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2023-11-07T07:05:37 < qyx> Ecco: we told you not to keep stm32 in the water for too long to avoid any rust
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2023-11-07T09:50:04 < qyx> now tell me how is it possible that the meig link SLM320 requires 3.5-4.2 V and there is no vreg on the miniPCIe card
2023-11-07T09:50:12 < qyx> and the card is fed with 3V3 only
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2023-11-07T11:38:21 < karlp> I'v eopften wondered that with lte shits.
2023-11-07T11:38:40 < karlp> is it jsut a documentation consspiracy to tell the dum hw engs "just connect the fucking battery here fuckwads"
2023-11-07T11:40:50 < qyx> usually they have hard-UVLO at 3V3 too
2023-11-07T11:44:49 < jpa-> and mini-pcie +3.3V supply has +-9% so down to 3.0V
2023-11-07T11:45:49 < karlp> so feeding 3.3V is fine, LDO is in dropout, but whatever, they don't care if external is regulating for them..?
2023-11-07T11:46:55 < qyx> I haven't checked but could they be feeding the 2V8 rail?
2023-11-07T11:48:43 < jpa-> looks like SLM320 hardware design manual says minimum 3.2V on Vbat
2023-11-07T11:49:52 < jpa-> .. it also says "SLM320 power supply range is from 3.2 V to 4.5 V  .... User needs to make sure that the input voltage will never drop below 3.3V."
2023-11-07T11:50:03 < jbo> good morning
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2023-11-07T11:51:18 < jpa-> i also don't understand why those modems are designed like they are crappy mobile phones; like "PWRKEY" needing a pulse to power on
2023-11-07T11:51:39 < qyx> A767x says 3.4V minimum
2023-11-07T11:52:00 < qyx> me neither
2023-11-07T11:54:20 < qyx> same with netlight
2023-11-07T11:54:28 < qyx> this simcom even has a "keyboard interface"
2023-11-07T11:55:18 < qyx> I am curious if the I2C interface listed as reserved could be used to connect a dumb I2C display and they have a custom firmware to do a basic LTE featurephone with the module
2023-11-07T11:56:19 < karlp> yeah, pwrkey and shit was super lame.
2023-11-07T11:56:19 < jpa-> if you sign a NDA, they'll provide you with SDK that will make you want to die
2023-11-07T11:57:19 < karlp> if only qualcomm would just let us have the radio chips instead of making us go and buy a chip+flash+random from quakctel and friends instead...
2023-11-07T11:58:15 < jpa-> if radio administration would let us use open source baseband stuff, we could do it all in software
2023-11-07T11:58:25 < qyx> fcc/ce requires ..
2023-11-07T11:58:26 < qyx> yeah
2023-11-07T12:00:54 < karlp> I love how they all believe htis is "better" though.
2023-11-07T12:01:18 < karlp> I'm not really convinced the world will fall apart as they seem to believe.
2023-11-07T12:02:00 < BrainDamage> I'm sure no amount of bribery money was involved whatsoever in that decision
2023-11-07T12:02:03 < jpa-> not until someone really wants to start exploiting stuff
2023-11-07T12:02:14 < jpa-> seems like lot of industrial stuff runs on really crappy security
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2023-11-07T12:07:00 < jbo> yes, that ^
2023-11-07T12:07:02 < jbo> 100% that
2023-11-07T12:07:29 < BrainDamage> 90% of industry's security protection is "nobody tried so far"
2023-11-07T12:08:16 < jpa-> it does reduce the vendor lock a bit though; i once was involved in a project to reverse-engineer an encrypted radio protocol so that they can replace part of the system
2023-11-07T12:08:21 < jpa-> fortunately the encryption was every-time-pad
2023-11-07T12:08:35 < jbo> :D
2023-11-07T12:08:56 < jbo> who else here likes boobies?
2023-11-07T12:09:44 < BrainDamage> it's one of the things where everyone except maybe the general public knows it's a huge problem, just not exploited yet, and we'll have to wait for some scandal down the line to see things getting fixed
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2023-11-07T12:12:15 < qyx> in an ideal world there is no security
2023-11-07T12:13:12 < ventYl> BrainDamage: I think, that some who should be competent don't even realize it is a huge problem
2023-11-07T12:16:31 < karlp> I don't think it will get fixed by scandals...
2023-11-07T12:17:40 < ventYl> one favorite recent writeup on topic of security of embedded systems: https://samcurry.net/web-hackers-vs-the-auto-industry/
2023-11-07T12:26:41 < karlp> heh, nxp has an appnote doig usb to _15_ com ports.
2023-11-07T12:27:11 < karlp> apparently their "flexio" gpio shits gives timers and fifos to every pin, and they have enough usb endpoint memory to fit 15 bidi.
2023-11-07T12:27:20 < karlp> eat  you rheart out WCH
2023-11-07T12:29:39 < jpa-> but does it actually work? it seems most software USB-serial implementations are broken in weird ways
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2023-11-07T12:51:44 < Laurenceb_> hi, anyone here ever used winauth with microshart teams?
2023-11-07T12:51:55 < Laurenceb_> its giving me "illegal character" error
2023-11-07T12:56:51 < qyx> teams works ok on lunex even with oauth2 and other stuff required, they needed zero tweaking
2023-11-07T12:57:06 < Laurenceb_> hmm
2023-11-07T12:57:16 < qyx> so I don't really understand your attempts
2023-11-07T12:57:18 < Laurenceb_>  "key is not base 32"
2023-11-07T12:58:07 < Laurenceb_> shit
2023-11-07T12:58:14 < Laurenceb_> winotp also fails with same error
2023-11-07T12:59:39 < Laurenceb_> shit
2023-11-07T13:01:26 < Laurenceb_> the code is a 9 digit number
2023-11-07T13:01:28 < Laurenceb_> wtf
2023-11-07T13:03:32 < Laurenceb_> gah I need a simple tutorial for this shit
2023-11-07T13:03:57 < Laurenceb_> all I know if that I have a 9 digit number formed for digits 0  to 9
2023-11-07T13:04:05 < Laurenceb_> completely the wrong format
2023-11-07T13:04:20 < Laurenceb_> maybe I need to convert to hex or something?
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2023-11-07T13:17:36 < Laurenceb_> guess I could try converting to base 64 or something
2023-11-07T13:18:25 < Laurenceb_> but without knowing what to do it will be a losing battle
2023-11-07T13:23:48 < Laurenceb_> looks like a uint32_t embedded within the QR code
2023-11-07T13:28:17 < Laurenceb_> qyx: so how do I setup oauth with a 9 digit number?
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2023-11-07T13:32:42 < Laurenceb_> 9 digit number wtf
2023-11-07T13:32:47  * Laurenceb_ is going rage mode
2023-11-07T13:33:12 < Streaker> " The digits 0, 1 and 8 are skipped due to their similarity with the letters O, I and B"
2023-11-07T13:33:30 < Streaker> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base32
2023-11-07T13:39:45 < Laurenceb_> ha hacked it
2023-11-07T13:41:05 < jpa-> such an APT hacker, cybersecurity experts across the globe are in terror
2023-11-07T13:41:58 < jpa-> with the aid of his dutch minion, the notorious Laurence Baxter can count to 10 and read both 4chan *and* wikipedia
2023-11-07T13:45:28 < qyx> zero tweaking includes zero setup Laurenceb_ 
2023-11-07T13:45:41 < qyx> it just starts and asks for username and password
2023-11-07T13:45:51 < karlp> jpa-: no fucking clue, I'm not wiring that up.
2023-11-07T13:45:59 < qyx> using their custom interface
2023-11-07T13:46:12 < karlp> teams on linux is sitll "classic" teams though, so sooner or later it will break.
2023-11-07T13:46:20 < karlp> well, the standalone app at least.
2023-11-07T13:46:48 < BrainDamage> maybe the software detected unusual activity on laurenceb's pc and wanted extra confirmation
2023-11-07T13:47:01 < BrainDamage> which would be ... not unusual
2023-11-07T13:48:14 < BrainDamage> as in, weird shit is usual for laurenceb's standards
2023-11-07T13:53:16 < Steffanx> Wut jpa-. What dutch minion is crazy enough to work for the Blax?
2023-11-07T13:54:28 < jpa-> Steffanx: Steffan Naffets, he'll do anything as long as you ask on IRC
2023-11-07T13:54:39 < jpa-> (IRC being the most popular hacker protocol)
2023-11-07T13:55:02 < jpa-> err
2023-11-07T13:55:14 < jpa-> looks like we have an impostor with same two first letters
2023-11-07T13:55:39 < jpa-> such a clever hack
2023-11-07T13:59:05 < Laurenceb_> Steffanx: I met Mr Madsen once
2023-11-07T14:00:03 < Steffanx> But Madsen was danish iirc?
2023-11-07T14:00:13 < Laurenceb_> yeah
2023-11-07T14:00:26 < Laurenceb_> he was involved in high altitude stuff
2023-11-07T14:00:46 < Laurenceb_> s/involved/trying to get free labour so he could claim the credit
2023-11-07T14:00:49 < Steffanx> jpa-: I can say for sure this Naffets guy would never do this
2023-11-07T14:01:38 < jpa-> Steffanx: you wouldn't believe the kind of stuff he does.. there is a reason why "ls" is blocked on https://naffets.nl/
2023-11-07T14:03:26 < Laurenceb_> >A psychiatric evaluation of Madsen described him as a narcissistic psychopath
2023-11-07T14:03:29 < Laurenceb_> lol accurate
2023-11-07T14:03:42 < Laurenceb_> he wanted free labour so he could claim fame
2023-11-07T14:07:34 < qyx> hu dat
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2023-11-07T14:14:09 < qyx> what's the current go-to for usb hubs?
2023-11-07T14:14:15 < qyx> usb2514 is okish?
2023-11-07T14:14:28 < Steffanx> Lol you found out about this amazing website jpa- lolol
2023-11-07T14:15:18 < Steffanx> It hasn't been like this for that long
2023-11-07T14:15:46 < qyx> <enter> doesn't work for me
2023-11-07T14:16:58 < Steffanx> It's not supposed to work.
2023-11-07T14:17:26 < Steffanx> Maybe I should attach chatgpt to it 
2023-11-07T14:18:04 < qyx> oh I though it is ttyd
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2023-11-07T18:40:24 < karlp> do you need -g/-ggdb3 when linking? or only for the compiler?
2023-11-07T18:41:55 < PaulFertser> When linking too.
2023-11-07T18:42:21 < PaulFertser> It doesn't make sense to deviate. And if you enable LTO then you'll need it anyway.
2023-11-07T18:42:54 < PaulFertser> What does your $job think about trying a project with libopencm3?
2023-11-07T18:43:07 < karlp> doesn't matter, I'm not going to use it.
2023-11-07T18:43:40 < PaulFertser> :(
2023-11-07T18:43:50 < karlp> fuck lgpl.
2023-11-07T18:43:54 < karlp> spent too long on that already.
2023-11-07T18:44:06 < PaulFertser> LGPL works nicely for GPL firmware.
2023-11-07T18:44:16 < karlp> lol. yes. just a minor requirement there :)
2023-11-07T18:44:45 < karlp> I've already made some progress on openocd for some of the other parts here, that aren't in oocd already, and I've got an orbtracemini beside the jlink, so will be doing a bit of that, 
2023-11-07T18:44:55 < PaulFertser> Awesome
2023-11-07T18:44:56 < karlp> but not even _considering_ locm3 here...
2023-11-07T18:45:18 < PaulFertser> I agree it's important to be realistic.
2023-11-07T18:45:54 < karlp> I'm currently saying "hey, how about this molex or GCT USB-C connector for 0.50c in singles, instead of this wurth one for $5?" 
2023-11-07T18:46:02 < karlp> and they'r elike," we've always used this one?"
2023-11-07T18:50:30 < jbo> CUI Devices makes nice connectors IMHO
2023-11-07T18:50:35 < jbo> when it comes to price/value/quality ratio
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2023-11-07T20:33:59 < qyx> karlp: whats gct, I came across them today too
2023-11-07T20:34:04 < qyx> never used them
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2023-11-07T21:36:15 < Laurence_b> argg god I hate teams
2023-11-07T21:36:17 < Laurence_b> broken again
2023-11-07T21:36:27 < Laurence_b> there has got to be some way to reset 2FA
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2023-11-07T22:01:36 < karlp> gct are great? on digikey and mouser, good 3d models, nice parts, good prices?
2023-11-07T22:01:41 < karlp> good enough for me :)
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2023-11-07T22:43:21 < Steffanx> i still have no clue what you're even doing Laurence_b . do i want to know?
2023-11-07T22:45:26 < PaulFertser> Laurence_b: reflash your stlink to make it into a 2FA dongle
2023-11-07T22:47:47 < Laurence_b> lol ok
2023-11-07T22:48:03 < Laurence_b> looks like I need to copy and store the code from the QR code
2023-11-07T22:52:08 < PaulFertser> You mean TOTP master key?
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2023-11-08T14:23:45 < karlp> nah, I'll be fine.
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2023-11-08T14:48:12 < jbo> how about now?
2023-11-08T14:52:19 < karlp> refresh https://www.erkomideldgos.is/ at your leisure...
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2023-11-08T15:15:03 < jpa-> "erkomideldgos" is icelandic for "is it burning yet?"
2023-11-08T15:15:22 < jpa-> oh, it actually is, almost :)
2023-11-08T15:15:38 < jpa-> made a guess based on domain before opening
2023-11-08T15:18:26 < Streaker> why does Google translate it as a statement? ("There is an eruption")
2023-11-08T15:18:54 < karlp> because google knows better, as usual....
2023-11-08T15:19:27 < Streaker> Or does Icelandic distinguish between statements and questions by tone and not form?
2023-11-08T15:19:27 < jpa-> because "er" ("is") can be either a question or a statement
2023-11-08T15:20:11 < karlp> and google likes to just _be right_ so, they don't offer alternatives, they just declare one of them to be the translation...
2023-11-08T15:20:34 < karlp> google just dropped the ? I guess...
2023-11-08T15:20:43 < jpa-> no, streaker dropped the ?
2023-11-08T15:20:48 < Streaker> I did.
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2023-11-08T18:53:22 < oz4ga> jpa-: Not that i speak icelandic only danish. "er" as the first word indicate a question i most nordic languages
2023-11-08T18:54:28 < oz4ga> here "er kommid" insted of Kommid er" the first is "has it come", the second is "it has come"
2023-11-08T18:55:04 < oz4ga> ok doubbel consonant is a danicism :D
2023-11-08T18:55:18 < oz4ga> er komid and komid er then
2023-11-08T18:57:21 < oz4ga> eldgos is probably some thing with fire
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2023-11-08T21:33:09 < karlp> gos is softdrink or fountain, eld is fire...
2023-11-08T21:33:12 < karlp> so... eruption :)
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--- Day changed to marras 09 2023
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2023-11-09T01:03:06 < Laurence_b> supp trollz
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2023-11-09T01:05:29 < Laurence_b> hyperwheel seems to have large magnetic drag :(
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2023-11-09T01:12:13 < specing> Laurence_b: you guys should do team building in a museum, see how they properly built wheels 5000 years ago
2023-11-09T01:15:05 < Laurence_b> lol
2023-11-09T01:15:26 < Laurence_b> nobody knows where the problem is, we've been stuck for weeks
2023-11-09T01:15:50 < Laurence_b> I suspect its related to a lamination autoclave error that resulted in very low resin fraction
2023-11-09T01:16:54 < Laurence_b> so mu_r is close to isotropic, resulting in enhanced magnetic field out of the plane of the laminations
2023-11-09T01:19:58 < karlp> lol https://www.eenewseurope.com/en/renesas-told-to-stop-saying-us-has-banned-quectel-iot-modules
2023-11-09T01:22:38 < Laurence_b> if B goes through the face of laminations in a motor / transformer, you can get huge losses
2023-11-09T01:22:41 < Laurence_b> sheeeet
2023-11-09T01:22:55 < Laurence_b> maybe we need the steorn magnetic field sensor probe lmao
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2023-11-09T01:23:48 < Laurence_b> >In November 2016, the company laid off its staff, closed its facility, and prepared for liquidation
2023-11-09T01:23:49 < Laurence_b> doh
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2023-11-09T01:32:47 < Laurence_b> https://gmw.com/product/thm1176/#productPricing
2023-11-09T01:32:51 < Laurence_b> dat price
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2023-11-09T12:00:27 < karlp> heh, check out the rad front panel design on this: https://asisurplus.com/marel-elm-ecan-mcstep-stepper-motor-controller/
2023-11-09T12:00:32 < karlp> show off those caps baby!
2023-11-09T12:02:51 < ventYl> that's for added cooling
2023-11-09T12:09:30 < jpa-> that's because the 3D model was a generic one and didn't include the height of the caps :)
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2023-11-09T12:42:36 < qyx> anyone knows flash differences between G0/G4 wrt. bootloaders from top of your head?
2023-11-09T12:43:47 < qyx> k G0 has 64bits write/read, 2K erase, single/dual bank
2023-11-09T12:43:59 < qyx> those 2K sectors are neat
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2023-11-09T12:45:28 < qyx> G4 the same, looks good
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2023-11-09T14:44:02 < qyx> going to shoot myself in the foot with a single wire USART
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2023-11-09T15:05:35 < Steffanx> Have fun
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2023-11-09T15:47:21 < Ecco> I just received an ST newsletter 
2023-11-09T15:47:40 < Ecco> They have small, low-end STM32 that they sell for $0.23
2023-11-09T15:48:02 < Ecco> It's kind of crazy if you think about it. Sure the core is slow and there isn't a lot of Flash or RAM, but I mean, it's $.23
2023-11-09T15:52:03 < jpa-> what part?
2023-11-09T16:09:17 < Ecco> https://www.st.com/en/microcontrollers-microprocessors/stm32c0-series.html
2023-11-09T16:09:23 < Ecco> Sorry it's $.24 actually :)
2023-11-09T16:09:51 < qyx> old
2023-11-09T16:09:53 < Ecco> So the part is https://www.st.com/en/microcontrollers-microprocessors/stm32c011j4.html
2023-11-09T16:09:55 < qyx> about a year
2023-11-09T16:10:01 < Ecco> oh, yeah I guess, I just wasn't aware
2023-11-09T16:10:56 < qyx> but it is pretty limited, avr of stm32s
2023-11-09T16:11:08 < Ecco> what are the biggest limitations?
2023-11-09T16:11:28 < Ecco> I mean, sure it doesn't have anything fancy, and the freq/ram/flash are low
2023-11-09T16:11:47 < Ecco> but I mean it's like a 1/10th of the price of other MCUs
2023-11-09T16:11:57 < Ecco> to the point where the price is comparable to much "dumber" parts
2023-11-09T16:12:20 < qyx> I am curious how much of the price is the cm0 license
2023-11-09T16:13:10 < Ecco> hmm, good point
2023-11-09T16:13:22 < Ecco> I'm curious why ST still hasn't unveiled Risc-V based chips
2023-11-09T16:14:07 < qyx> there may be some exclusive licensing voodoo involved
2023-11-09T16:14:38 < Ecco> oh, as in ARM telling ST "we'll sell you our IP cheaper as long as you don't manufacture any other ISA"?
2023-11-09T16:14:46 < qyx> yeah
2023-11-09T16:14:48 < qyx> but idk
2023-11-09T16:14:55 < Ecco> I mean, it would make a lot of sense from ARM's perspective
2023-11-09T16:15:05 < Ecco> Don't know how legal that would be tho
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2023-11-09T16:39:02 < karlp> wooee, code in a directory labelled freertos-10.3.0, freertos macro defines say it's 10.3.1, and descriptions refer to "prior to 10.4.0" which was added in 10.4.0... I wonder where the hell this came from.
2023-11-09T16:44:06 < ventYl> ...from hell
2023-11-09T16:44:17 < karlp> correct....
2023-11-09T16:44:30 < karlp> there's been some pretty rough git commits in this repo it appears..
2023-11-09T16:44:45 < karlp> also. 42 frertos tasks...
2023-11-09T16:44:50 < ventYl> reminds me of piece of ST documentation reading "this feature will be implemented in STAPI 27" while we already were on STAPI 33
2023-11-09T16:45:34 < qyx> karlp: watcha innovating, secret work stuff?
2023-11-09T16:45:50 < karlp> currnetly unfucking work stuff, yeah.
2023-11-09T16:46:32 < karlp> freertos asserting on invalid task handles, trying to track down stack smashing vs just bad pointers.
2023-11-09T16:46:41 < karlp> but, using orbcat!
2023-11-09T16:48:05 < ventYl> was it in production already?
2023-11-09T16:48:17 < ventYl> like, it works after all so who even cares?
2023-11-09T16:48:50 < karlp> not entirely, what I'm currently on is a baord replacement due to no-longer available parts, which has _not_ gone to production yet.
2023-11-09T16:48:57 < karlp> but was assumed to be working....
2023-11-09T16:52:03 < karlp> whee, I think I found some recursion. that will do it...
2023-11-09T16:52:46 < qyx> you dare not
2023-11-09T16:53:24 < qyx> I have 30 minutes before going away, I guess it is not feasinle to touch any work now
2023-11-09T16:57:16 < ventYl> going to see some metal made in Island
2023-11-09T16:59:37 < karlp> hrm?
2023-11-09T17:00:12 < ventYl> Solstafir playing here tonight
2023-11-09T17:00:18 < karlp> oh, nice!
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2023-11-09T18:38:06 < Laurenceb_> STM32ADC.h not found
2023-11-09T18:38:09 < Laurenceb_> wtf tarduino
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2023-11-09T18:41:46 < Laurenceb_> sheet
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2023-11-09T19:55:54 < Steffanx> You need 2FA to access that file.
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2023-11-09T22:06:13 < antto> maybe it was written on crapdows and the file is actually stm32adc.h
2023-11-09T22:15:51 < Steffanx> Welcome antto 
2023-11-09T22:16:00 < antto> hm?
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2023-11-09T22:22:11 < Steffanx> Welcome
2023-11-09T22:22:48  * antto has been here since a few weeks
2023-11-09T22:23:11 < Steffanx> Does that make you less welcome?
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2023-11-09T22:25:31 < Laurence_b> libmaple is missing from stm32duino
2023-11-09T22:25:32 < Laurence_b> wtf
2023-11-09T22:27:13 < antto> Laurence_b, <antto> maybe it was written on crapdows and the file is actually stm32adc.h
2023-11-09T22:29:25 < Laurence_b> hmm I'll search the github again
2023-11-09T22:42:51 < Laurence_b> https://github.com/stm32duino/Arduino_Core_STM32/issues/2038
2023-11-09T22:42:53 < Laurence_b> epic fail
2023-11-09T22:43:50 < antto> what do you generally expect from failduino?
2023-11-09T22:47:48 < Laurence_b> not too hard to port over tho
2023-11-09T22:50:47 < antto> it looks like i'll have to deal with STM32 soon, and if the auto-generated code is like atmel's, i'll probably be writing my own periph drivers again
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2023-11-09T23:02:08 < Laurence_b> timecube is as easy as the tarduino proper adc/dma lib tho https://community.simplefoc.com/t/stm32-adc-code-using-stm32duino/346/2
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2023-11-09T23:59:28 < jadew> craci
2023-11-09T23:59:48 < jadew> wrong window
--- Day changed pe marras 10 2023
2023-11-10T00:00:03 < jadew> now I have to change passwords :/
2023-11-10T00:02:28 < Steffanx> Interesting password then
2023-11-10T00:03:44 < jadew> do you know what it means?
2023-11-10T00:32:34 < ventYl> welcome, tinitus
2023-11-10T00:36:58 < qyx> lol
2023-11-10T00:37:53 < qyx> was it good? I probably only heard them once in the past
2023-11-10T00:37:57 < qyx> maybe a couple of songs
2023-11-10T00:38:24 < ventYl> this was amorphis tour, so solstafir was just a warm-up band
2023-11-10T00:39:03 < ventYl> and audio technician wasn't able to tune them in. the sound was quite poor
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2023-11-10T00:41:26 < qyx> too underground for the sound stage?
2023-11-10T00:41:56 < ventYl> it was an underground place, IDK why, the sound was just technically poor
2023-11-10T00:43:16 < ventYl> that place does not have an amazing accoustics anyway
2023-11-10T00:43:58 < ventYl> but the music was good. to me they were the highlight of the event
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2023-11-10T02:39:09 < Ecco> Is there any good emulator for STM32s?
2023-11-10T02:39:22 < Ecco> I know some code will need to be device-specific
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2023-11-10T03:08:19 < aandrew> Ecco: there is renode, I've had limited success with that. There is also qemu-stm32 but it's in a bit of a weird space
2023-11-10T03:09:43 < Ecco> never heard of renode
2023-11-10T03:09:49 < Ecco> qemu seems… complicated
2023-11-10T03:12:46 < Ecco> I'm looking into renode right now. Seems interesting! Thanks for the link!
2023-11-10T03:31:18 < aandrew> it is, and it's under active development. it's written largely in C# which is really weird but it does seem pretty neat
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2023-11-10T04:02:32 < mawk> for what Ecco 
2023-11-10T04:02:35 < mawk> testing?
2023-11-10T04:02:38 < mawk> how about unit tests
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2023-11-10T07:57:46 < qyx> hoe about no
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2023-11-10T11:07:58 < Steffanx> Why not?
2023-11-10T11:16:21 < qyx> reasons.
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2023-11-10T12:00:49 < qyx> so I just finished a PCB and the customer told me one obviously irrelevant information which changes the design considerably
2023-11-10T12:01:47 < qyx> now, 1. ask more $$$ and redo it, 2. beat them, 3. beat them, ask more $$$ and redo it 4. ?
2023-11-10T12:11:13 < jpa-> just say you ordered prototypes already and then hide your own mistakes in the revision you do for more $$$
2023-11-10T12:18:22 < qyx> not ba
2023-11-10T12:18:42 < qyx> but now I am going to innovate my subrack stuff a bit
2023-11-10T12:40:54 < karlp> mawk: you would have been  happy here this morning, 
2023-11-10T12:41:15 < karlp> some team was sharing a wall of maths for how they're optimizing robot paths for bone removal.
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2023-11-10T12:50:24 < mawk> nice karlp 
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2023-11-10T13:08:12 < Laurenceb_> any ideas why I'm getting "error: expected initializer before 'HAL_DMA_IRQHandler'
2023-11-10T13:08:12 < Laurenceb_> "
2023-11-10T13:08:18 < Laurenceb_> for HAL codez on F1
2023-11-10T13:08:23 < karlp> lrun to sytax
2023-11-10T13:08:37 < karlp> learn to follow syntax rules?
2023-11-10T13:08:56 < karlp> learn to ask questions with useful context like everyone else too numbnuts
2023-11-10T13:09:42 < Steffanx> lol karlp 
2023-11-10T13:10:56 < karlp> mawk: you might also like this: https://robert.ocallahan.org/2021/09/emulating-amd-rsqrtss-etc-on-intel.html
2023-11-10T13:15:09 < Laurenceb_> nvm
2023-11-10T13:15:21 < Laurenceb_> HAL_LinkDMA is not compiling tho
2023-11-10T13:15:24 < Laurenceb_> error: 'ADC_HandleTypeDef' {aka 'struct __ADC_HandleTypeDef'} has no member named
2023-11-10T13:15:40 < Laurenceb_>  'dma1'
2023-11-10T13:19:50 < Laurenceb_> WTF
2023-11-10T13:19:56 < Laurenceb_> __HAL_LINKDMA(&adc1, DMA_Handle, dma_adc1);   compiles
2023-11-10T13:20:06 < Laurenceb_> but I have no function called "DMA_Handle"
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2023-11-10T13:46:13 < Laurenceb_> solved it
2023-11-10T13:46:14 < Laurenceb_>   HAL_ADC_RegisterCallback(&adc1, HAL_ADC_CONVERSION_COMPLETE_CB_ID, (pADC_CallbackTypeDef*) DMA_Handler);
2023-11-10T13:46:14 < Laurenceb_>   HAL_ADC_RegisterCallback(&adc1, HAL_ADC_CONVERSION_HALF_CB_ID, (pADC_CallbackTypeDef*) DMA_Handler);
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2023-11-10T13:57:42 < ventYl> Ecco: you can run like 95% of the code off-MCU and for the remaining 5%, this can be fenced behind strongly-defined API
2023-11-10T14:01:56 < zyp> depends on the nature of the code you're testing
2023-11-10T14:02:25 < zyp> and how much effort you want to put into abstraction layers
2023-11-10T14:03:07 < zyp> and of course what exactly you'll be testing for
2023-11-10T14:03:12 < karlp> ventYl: how was the concert?
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2023-11-10T14:37:34 < ventYl> karlp: I like them, but the way they sounded there was quite poor
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--- Log closed pe marras 10 18:16:26 2023
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2023-11-10T18:20:50 < qyx> running out of space again
2023-11-10T18:20:53 < qyx> why are PCBs so small
2023-11-10T18:24:53 < jpa-> start stacking
2023-11-10T18:25:11 < Steffanx> Reasons.
2023-11-10T18:48:30 < zyp> qyx, because you're filling them up with huge connectors
2023-11-10T19:10:24 < qyx> because I am overengineering things afain
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2023-11-10T19:26:00 < qyx> but I am struggling a bit with RMII
2023-11-10T19:26:13 < qyx> it is a long time I did etherwebs
2023-11-10T19:29:00 < qyx> also TIL SPE has master/slave roles, they are not equal
2023-11-10T19:29:06 < qyx> not very inclusive today
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2023-11-10T19:36:34 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/iAfVt/Screenshot_2023-11-10_18-36-14.png
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2023-11-10T21:17:11 < Ecco> So, remember how we were discussing ST making some Risc-V MCUs?
2023-11-10T21:17:12 < Ecco> https://blog.nordicsemi.com/getconnected/why-nordic-is-getting-involved-in-risc-v
2023-11-10T21:20:24 < nomorekaki> ordered scopefun oscilloscope
2023-11-10T21:22:02 < nomorekaki> half a price of full feature 3000 series
2023-11-10T21:22:07 < nomorekaki> picoscope that is
2023-11-10T21:22:45 < Ecco> Dumb question: why is the ScopeFun so expensive?
2023-11-10T21:23:00 < Ecco> I mean, since it's OSS, I assume the parts themselves are expensive?
2023-11-10T21:23:34 < nomorekaki> idk
2023-11-10T21:23:55 < nomorekaki> why full featured 3000-series is 2keur?
2023-11-10T21:24:16 < nomorekaki> or more
2023-11-10T21:25:35 < Ecco> well, because they can :-D
2023-11-10T21:25:40 < nomorekaki> why opensource should mean that it's sold the price it takes to manuf one?
2023-11-10T21:25:58 < nomorekaki> nobody is not selling anything with that deal
2023-11-10T21:26:25 < nomorekaki> maybe do some of these "I have couple of excess units" things and then it dries out
2023-11-10T21:27:28 < nomorekaki> I think crowd supply is behind manufacturing somehow and not the developer/(s)
2023-11-10T21:29:28 < karlp> crowdsuply is just a fancy word for ebay...
2023-11-10T21:29:34 < Ecco> Well, it's jsut that they're targeting an audience of tinkerers
2023-11-10T21:29:43 < Ecco> since the device is open source, one could make their own
2023-11-10T21:30:01 < nomorekaki> I wouldn't
2023-11-10T21:30:13 < Ecco> I mean, it depends on the price, doesn't it?
2023-11-10T21:30:20 < nomorekaki> yes
2023-11-10T21:30:24 < Ecco> If they sell it for $800 but it would cost you $700 to make, sure
2023-11-10T21:30:36 < Ecco> but if you could make one for $80, maybe you'd consider it
2023-11-10T21:30:48 < nomorekaki> yes. virtually free
2023-11-10T21:36:42 < Ecco> Is there a way to view IEC standard docs without having to shell out hundreds of dollars?
2023-11-10T21:44:21 < qyx> british standards were accessible in the past
2023-11-10T21:44:27 < qyx> also .fr iirc
2023-11-10T21:44:41 < qyx> if they are harmonised,they are practically the same
2023-11-10T21:47:22 < jpa-> evs.ee also sells the estonian versions ( which are nevertheless in english) often cheaper than iec
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2023-11-10T21:59:19 < sauce> some are on libgen
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2023-11-11T14:57:07 < qyx> no innovation today?
2023-11-11T14:58:55 < antto> i made a new favicon for my website
2023-11-11T14:59:01 < antto> does that count?
2023-11-11T15:04:09 < Steffanx> Better show it then
2023-11-11T15:04:10 < karlp> i bought more dev boards for projects I'll probably never finish, does that count?
2023-11-11T15:07:29 < qyx> it involves a nonzero amount of work
2023-11-11T15:07:41 < qyx> and as is known work always leads to innovation
2023-11-11T15:07:49 < qyx> so yes
2023-11-11T15:17:32 < jpa-> i've been feeling stressed out, does that count?
2023-11-11T15:18:26 < antto> Steffanx, haven't uploaded it yet
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2023-11-11T16:34:17 < Steffanx> i see
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2023-11-11T17:35:14 < jbo> zyp, you around?
2023-11-11T17:52:38 < jbo> zyp does not seem to be around
2023-11-11T17:55:00 < Steffanx> Awh .
2023-11-11T17:55:18 < Steffanx> Will you be alright jbo?
2023-11-11T17:55:41 < jbo> physically yes. emotionally not so sure
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2023-11-11T20:21:25 < zyp> jbo, I was not aroumd
2023-11-11T20:21:36 < zyp> I'm now, for a little bit
2023-11-11T20:21:40 < jbo> :<
2023-11-11T20:21:53 < jbo> I'm looking at yosys/nextpnr right now (first time)
2023-11-11T20:22:14 < jbo> pulled out some iCE40 board to give it a try
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2023-11-11T20:23:30 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.net/RoyalEndeavour/status/1723345033602957800#m
2023-11-11T20:24:00 < zyp> jbo, nice
2023-11-11T20:24:39 < jbo> zyp, is ABC a required step?
2023-11-11T20:25:11 < zyp> probably, I don't have too much experience driving the tools manually
2023-11-11T20:25:42 < jbo> what are you doing?
2023-11-11T20:26:24 < zyp> I'm using litex and/or amaranth, and they both know how to drive the tools
2023-11-11T20:26:30 < jbo> oh, okay
2023-11-11T20:27:06 < qyx> amaranth sounds good enought to give it a try
2023-11-11T20:27:09 < qyx> -t
2023-11-11T20:27:49 < zyp> so far I've mainly had the toplevel design be in litex
2023-11-11T20:28:11 < zyp> but amaranth is nicer than migen (which litex is based on), so I'm moving in that direction
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2023-11-11T23:13:39 < jadew> has anyone switched to 10 Gbps on their home network yet?
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2023-11-11T23:25:49 < jadew> I'm upgrading my network and I don't know whether I should make the switch now, or at a later time
2023-11-11T23:27:37 < Steffanx> or never :P
2023-11-11T23:28:01 < jadew> Or that, yeah :)
2023-11-11T23:29:15 < jadew> The hardware seems to be much more expensive for 10 Gbps, so it would probably be wise to it when it's actually needed (in the idea that stuff would get cheaper)
2023-11-11T23:29:38 < jadew> The media converter alone is ~4 times more expensive.
2023-11-11T23:30:10 < Steffanx> Are you talking fiber or .. just good old CATwhateverisneeded?
2023-11-11T23:30:33 < jadew> Fiber, can you do it on copper?
2023-11-11T23:33:48 < Steffanx> Yeah
2023-11-11T23:36:00 < jadew> Uhm, it looks like my ISP withdrew their 10 Gbps offer for my location...
2023-11-11T23:36:15 < jadew> Apparently they don't have enough equipment to get everywhere yet.
2023-11-11T23:36:41 < jadew> Guess I'll stay on 1 Gbps :/
2023-11-11T23:37:52 < Steffanx> There's always the smaller step to 2.5
2023-11-11T23:38:27 < jadew> Yeah, they're not giving me that option either.
2023-11-11T23:38:48 < jadew> It's ok, it would have been expensive anyway and I don't really see the benefit atm.
2023-11-11T23:39:10 < jadew> "If you can't reach the cherries, they're sour."
2023-11-11T23:42:22 < jbo> I'm failing at hooking up an olimex board
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--- Day changed su marras 12 2023
2023-11-12T00:03:05 < Steffanx> You can do it jbo \o/
2023-11-12T00:04:13 < jbo> :D
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2023-11-12T00:07:13 < jbo> maybe opensores toolchain doesn't like official lattice programmer
2023-11-12T00:11:25 < catphish> jadew: azonenberg probably has 100G on his home network :)
2023-11-12T00:12:40 < catphish> my ISP could do me 10G but the cost would be a bit lol, i should've upgraded it when i worked there and nobody was looking
2023-11-12T00:26:50 < specing> lol, I'd be surprised if azonenberg is still on 100G
2023-11-12T00:27:00 < specing> he must be on 1 TB by now
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2023-11-12T00:45:26 < zyp> jbo, use openfpgaloader if you aren't already
2023-11-12T00:45:38 < jbo> zyp, I'm trying to use iceprog
2023-11-12T00:45:43 < jbo> oss iceprog
2023-11-12T00:46:09 < zyp> oh, right, dunno how well ice40 support is in openfpgaloader
2023-11-12T00:46:18 < jbo> I'll check that out - thanks!
2023-11-12T00:46:19 < zyp> since ice40 is some weird non-jtag stuff
2023-11-12T00:46:37 < zyp> but for ecp5, openfpgaloader is the shit
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2023-11-12T01:09:29 < jbo> zyp, 
2023-11-12T01:09:30 < jbo> https://trabucayre.github.io/openFPGALoader/compatibility/fpga.html
2023-11-12T01:09:35 < jbo> what does "active serial mode" mean?
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2023-11-12T10:54:05 < jadew> catphish, it's only $10 here
2023-11-12T10:54:29 < jadew> I pay $8 for 1 Gbps
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2023-11-12T11:35:05 < Steffanx> Wut?!
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2023-11-12T12:06:08 < zyp> jbo, dunno, set up to drive the serial flash directly maybe?
2023-11-12T12:07:08 < jpa-> probably the FPGA datasheet will tell
2023-11-12T12:09:57 < zyp> https://trabucayre.github.io/openFPGALoader/vendors/lattice.html#ice40
2023-11-12T12:10:54 < zyp> IIRC the ice40 use the same pins for direct memory programming (SPI slave) and loading from flash (SPI master), typically with a couple of jumpers to choose which
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2023-11-12T12:22:21 < qyx> Steffanx: 21e here
2023-11-12T12:22:48 < qyx> but wut
2023-11-12T12:22:58 < qyx> ok 10g for $10 and 1g for $8?
2023-11-12T12:29:28 < antto> this is the middle-size popcorn scheme ;P~
2023-11-12T12:32:31 < qyx> zyp: are you using 0.8 mm pitch ecp5?
2023-11-12T12:32:53 < zyp> yes
2023-11-12T12:33:05 < zyp> orbtrace is using the bga256
2023-11-12T12:35:30 < zyp> here's a map: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/ebPAD.png
2023-11-12T12:35:49 < zyp> documentation didn't have any and I find those helpful, so I made my own
2023-11-12T12:36:08 < qyx> nah 5 outer rings
2023-11-12T12:36:51 < zyp> yeah
2023-11-12T12:37:42 < zyp> but it's a fpga so unless you need all IO it's not like you need the fifth ring, except TDO
2023-11-12T12:39:23 < zyp> orbtrace fanout: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/ozf4B.png
2023-11-12T12:46:51 < zyp> here's a similar map of lifcl-33u, which is 0.65mm pitch: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/1JBTM.png
2023-11-12T12:52:39 < jadew> Steffanx, yeah :D
2023-11-12T12:53:19 < jadew> https://www.digi.ro/servicii/internet
2023-11-12T12:53:36 < jadew> https://www.digi.ro/servicii/internet/internet-fix/fiberlink-10g
2023-11-12T12:54:06 < jadew> 50 RON to USD = $10.75
2023-11-12T12:56:46 < jadew> If you install it now you'll only pay $5 for the first year :)
2023-11-12T13:01:26 < jadew> This is the coolest operator we have. I also have a mobile subscription for $2 with unlimited minutes and data + 200 international minutes.
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2023-11-12T13:10:31 < Steffanx> Here you would pay at least 50 euro for 1000/100 
2023-11-12T13:17:36 < jadew> I wonder how the math works out. I think our ISP worked out that they would have a better bottom line with this pricing scheme.
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2023-11-12T13:35:48 < zyp> at some point, more speed doesn't really mean more traffic
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2023-11-12T14:06:38 < Laurence_b> meanwhile in england https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FF-mQ7P2XwAAmzLp.png
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2023-11-12T16:24:31 < Laurence_b> calling shitcoin gurus
2023-11-12T16:24:38 < Laurence_b> anyone used localcoinswap?
2023-11-12T16:24:53 < Laurence_b> I cant set the gaslimit to a sane value on their webwallet :(
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2023-11-12T16:46:21 < Laurence_b> shitcoin seems pretty shit but it does sort of work
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2023-11-12T17:02:58 < jbo> zyp, yeah I think that is exactly the problem I'm running into
2023-11-12T17:03:19 < jbo> just updating nextpnr to 0.6 first tho: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=275041
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2023-11-12T17:39:35 < antto> Steffanx, https://antonsavov.net/images/favicon.png
2023-11-12T17:44:01 < Steffanx> wonderful antto  :)
2023-11-12T17:52:50 -!- Laurence_b [~Laurence_@44.177.208.46.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Quit: Client closed]
2023-11-12T17:59:46 < Streaker> are favicons visible on mobile browsers?
2023-11-12T18:00:45  * antto does not schprachens ze smurtphone
2023-11-12T18:15:42 < qyx> fuk mobile networks, the modem is stuck in roaming or whatever
2023-11-12T18:15:43 < qyx> again
2023-11-12T18:15:54 < jbo> fun times
2023-11-12T18:16:03 -!- IanW_ [~IceChat9@arcanum.force9.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
2023-11-12T18:16:34 < qyx> yes, datalogger offline
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2023-11-12T18:24:00 < jbo> that sucks :/
2023-11-12T18:31:57 < Laurence_b> happy_merchant.jpg
2023-11-12T18:32:27 < Laurence_b> muh shitcoins arrived
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2023-11-12T18:56:43 < antto> ($)Laurence_b($)
2023-11-12T18:58:15 < Laurence_b> lol
2023-11-12T19:02:37 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FF-v1ojXWEAAs4pn.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
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2023-11-12T19:47:38 < Laurence_b> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%ABlism#/media/File:Raelians-Japan-Nov2012.jpg
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2023-11-12T22:05:26 < qyx> I hate subrack stuff
2023-11-12T22:07:35 < qyx> zyp: knowing my attitude towards software and learning, how would you rate my joy using OSS tools for ECP5 on a scale 1-10?
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2023-11-12T22:09:06 < qyx> and, could you cross check the dimension between a PCB top layer and the corresponding HP left to be 4.07 mm?
2023-11-12T22:10:00 < zyp> idk, they work for me
2023-11-12T22:10:39 < zyp> as mentioned earlier, I use litex to drive the tools in any case, and it knows how to drive both vendor and open tools, so the main difference at this point is how much hassle it is to install the tools
2023-11-12T22:10:40 < qyx> which means top layer to HP hole is 3.55 mm, so HP grid to HP hole is 7.62 which is 1.5x HP
2023-11-12T22:10:49 < zyp> and open tools have no licensing bullshit to deal with
2023-11-12T22:11:33 < qyx> and do I remember correctly you did some parts in this pythonic hdl?
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2023-11-12T22:11:40 < qyx> or all in vhdl/verilog
2023-11-12T22:11:43 < zyp> 4.07 is correct: https://www.dacpol.eu/files/pl/katalog/elektronika/heitec/Kategoria_A/img/4.PNG
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2023-11-12T22:12:13 < qyx> elektronika and kayegoria sounds sk/cz
2023-11-12T22:12:28 < zyp> says pl
2023-11-12T22:12:36 < zyp> anyway, this is from a link you sent me before
2023-11-12T22:12:43 < zyp> https://www.dacpol.eu/en/id-19-inch-technology-25602/product/19-inch-technology
2023-11-12T22:12:44 < qyx> really
2023-11-12T22:12:56 < qyx> I lost all my bookmarks and documenta
2023-11-12T22:13:08 < qyx> wrt subrack sh*t
2023-11-12T22:13:28 < zyp> this thing and the schroff catalog is what I went off
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2023-11-12T22:14:02 < qyx> yeah I have been browsing schroff half of the day
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2023-11-12T22:16:19 < qyx> that dacpol web is cool
2023-11-12T22:16:35 < qyx> k thanks back
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2023-11-12T22:16:43 < jbo> PaulFertser, you around, Sir?
2023-11-12T22:18:50 < PaulFertser> jbo: kinda
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2023-11-12T22:23:43 < jbo> PaulFertser, never mind then - totally unimportant :)
2023-11-12T22:28:15 < PaulFertser> jbo: tell me I answer when I can
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2023-11-12T22:38:29 < jbo> PaulFertser, I compiled a custom version of OpenOCD to play with some risc-v that is not upstreamed mainlined yet. However, upon executing the corresponding OpenOCD command I get:
2023-11-12T22:38:35 < jbo> invalid command name "script"
2023-11-12T22:38:53 < jbo> any idea what to look for, or where to look for something?
2023-11-12T22:39:32 < antto> this is where you debug the debugging program o_O
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2023-11-12T22:56:26 < PaulFertser> jbo: where do you have that "script", why are you calling that command?
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2023-11-12T23:09:50 < nomorekaki> rip karlp?
2023-11-12T23:10:33 < jbo> PaulFertser, command line is:    src/openocd -f tcl/interface/jtag_tcp.cfg -c "set MURAX_CPU0_YAML /home/jbo/projects/spinalhdl_vexrisc/cpu0.yaml" -f tcl/target/murax.cfg
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2023-11-12T23:11:01 < jbo> PaulFertser, I am exactly trying to figure out where that script command it's complainign about is coming from. it's certainly not in the YAML file
2023-11-12T23:12:28 < PaulFertser> jbo: please run with -d2 and pastebin the output
2023-11-12T23:12:36 < qyx> nomorekaki: is he?
2023-11-12T23:13:15 < PaulFertser> He's not living in a vulcan I hope so should be safe.
2023-11-12T23:13:35 < nomorekaki> but he is probs hunting magma
2023-11-12T23:14:04 < PaulFertser> jbo: when running self-compiled you should also use "-s tcl" so that it would be using all the scripts from within the tcl subdirectory in the sources.
2023-11-12T23:14:27 < jbo> PaulFertser, with -d2 it's literally the same output exact that it adds "debug_level: 2"
2023-11-12T23:14:34 < PaulFertser> jbo: with -d3 then?
2023-11-12T23:16:01 < jbo> PaulFertser, not telling me that much more: https://termbin.com/5yhr
2023-11-12T23:16:55 < PaulFertser> jbo: hm, ok, it's from src/helper/configuration.c:             command_run_line(cmd_ctx, "script openocd.cfg");
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2023-11-12T23:19:38 < PaulFertser> Or rather from src/helper/options.c:                           char *command = alloc_printf("script {%s}", optarg);
2023-11-12T23:20:30 < jbo> hmmm
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2023-11-12T23:22:40 < PaulFertser> jbo: is there anything unusual about your host system?
2023-11-12T23:22:56 < jbo> PaulFertser, not really. It's FreeBSD
2023-11-12T23:23:51 < PaulFertser> script is a command implemented in jimtcl itself
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2023-11-12T23:28:22 < PaulFertser> jbo: probably there's some incompatibility between jimtcl in your system and the one that OpenOCD fork expects. Are you using internal or external jimtcl when building OpenOCD?
2023-11-12T23:31:14 < jbo> PaulFertser, I just tried building with both (passing --enable-external-jimtcl and --enable-internal-jimtcl on ./configure) and I get the same results
2023-11-12T23:31:54 < PaulFertser> jbo: very weird
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2023-11-12T23:33:57 < jbo> mhmmm
2023-11-12T23:37:41 < PaulFertser> jbo: probably you see some error during configure stage?
2023-11-12T23:39:15 < jbo> PaulFertser, I have honestly no clue. would not have bothered you otherwise
2023-11-12T23:41:49 < zyp> jbo, is that a litex system with vexriscv? if so I suggest trying wishbone-tool instead
2023-11-12T23:42:59 < PaulFertser> jbo: I remember I have already debugged it many years ago. Please check src/startup_tcl.inc is it empty?
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2023-11-12T23:43:55 < PaulFertser> jbo: back then the error was "the error is because you use busybox od instead of posix-compliant od it seems."
2023-11-12T23:44:11 < PaulFertser> jbo: does your "od" have option A?
2023-11-12T23:44:18 < jbo> zyp, nope. I have not touched litex at all
2023-11-12T23:44:28 < jbo> PaulFertser, I don't understand the question :(
2023-11-12T23:45:09 < PaulFertser> jbo: echo test | od -v -A n -t x1
2023-11-12T23:45:12 < zyp> jbo, are you assembling a system manually in verilog or something then, or using another system builder?
2023-11-12T23:45:40 < jbo> PaulFertser
2023-11-12T23:45:42 < jbo> ➜  ~ echo test | od -v -A n -t x1
2023-11-12T23:45:44 < jbo>            74  65  73  74  0a  
2023-11-12T23:46:06 < jbo> zyp, spinalhdl
2023-11-12T23:46:06 < PaulFertser> It was 16th November 2015 when I was debugging it.
2023-11-12T23:46:23 < PaulFertser> jbo: does src/startup_tcl.inc have much contents?
2023-11-12T23:46:48 < jbo> PaulFertser, only one line:   /* Autogenerated with ./src/helper/bin2char.sh */
2023-11-12T23:47:38 < PaulFertser> jbo: so that's the same issue then, great.
2023-11-12T23:48:12 < PaulFertser> jbo: remove it, re-run make, notice how the ./src/helper/bin2char.sh is run and re-run it manually to see what goes wrong.
2023-11-12T23:49:01 < PaulFertser> Or just try echo test | ./src/helper/bin2char.sh 
2023-11-12T23:49:30 < jbo> PaulFertser
2023-11-12T23:49:36 < jbo> echo test | ./src/helper/bin2char.sh 
2023-11-12T23:49:36 < jbo> 0x74,0x65,0x73,0x74,0x0a,
2023-11-12T23:50:24 < qyx> wut?
2023-11-12T23:50:36 < qyx> why is it done in such a weird way?
2023-11-12T23:50:48 < qyx> PaulFertser: echo test| xxd -i
2023-11-12T23:50:49 < jbo> PaulFertser, does that tell you anything more? :D
2023-11-12T23:51:34 < PaulFertser> qyx: xxd is not POSIX
2023-11-12T23:51:53 < qyx> and od is?
2023-11-12T23:52:08 < PaulFertser> jbo: yes, it means your "od" works nicely, good. Now the next step is to remove src/startup_tcl.inc and see how exactly it's regeneraetd.
2023-11-12T23:52:41 < PaulFertser> Proper line would be cat ../src/helper/startup.tcl ../src/jtag/startup.tcl ../src/target/startup.tcl ../src/server/startup.tcl ../src/flash/startup.tcl | ../src/helper/bin2char.sh > src/startup_tcl.inc
2023-11-12T23:53:10 < PaulFertser> qyx: od is IEEE Std 1003.1-2001
2023-11-12T23:53:31 < jbo> PaulFertser, wait what? :D
2023-11-12T23:53:39 < qyx> meh
2023-11-12T23:53:47 < PaulFertser> jbo: I'm building in a subdir, so without ../ for you
2023-11-12T23:54:57 < jbo> PaulFertser, I just did that (blindly). the src/starup_tcl.inc now contains a bunch of hex values. I still get the script command error tho
2023-11-12T23:55:06 < jbo> (I didn't rebuild anything)
2023-11-12T23:55:20 < PaulFertser> jbo: you needed to rebuild the binary of course
2023-11-12T23:55:47 < PaulFertser> jbo: hm, probably you're running BSD make and not GNU Make and that makes the difference?
2023-11-12T23:56:00 < jbo> PaulFertser, I actually tried both :p
2023-11-12T23:56:38 < jbo> PaulFertser, now I don't get the error anymore. now it just can't connect to the target (which is fine, because there is none)
2023-11-12T23:56:39 < PaulFertser> jbo: if src/starup_tcl.inc was empty then it means something was wrong during that step, you should see in make output what exactly.
2023-11-12T23:56:50 < jbo> PaulFertser, I'll nuke and re-try.
--- Day changed ma marras 13 2023
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2023-11-13T00:03:27 < jbo> PaulFertser, seems like it was really just make vs gmake
2023-11-13T00:03:41 < jbo> PaulFertser, I nuked the directory, re-cloned, ran same steps but this time immediately with gmake. works out of the box.
2023-11-13T00:04:03 < jbo> I did first run non-GNU make and then later GNU make. so maybe that file was "pre-generated" incorrectly at that point.
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2023-11-13T00:08:12 < jbo> PaulFertser, thank you for your help - and apologies for wasting your time :/
2023-11-13T00:16:25 < PaulFertser> jbo: welcome :)
2023-11-13T00:16:42 < PaulFertser> jbo: you're lucky I remembered that case from 8 years ago :)
2023-11-13T00:17:53 < jbo> PaulFertser, you never disappoint :)
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2023-11-13T01:55:43 < Laurence_b> its a conspiracy theory
2023-11-13T01:55:44 < Laurence_b> https://yro.slashdot.org/story/23/11/12/0522224/provisional-agreement-reached-on-eid-a-digital-identity-for-all-europeans
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2023-11-13T02:22:04 < Laurence_b> wew
2023-11-13T02:22:06 < Laurence_b> https://static.rusi.org/SR-Orlan-complex-web-final.pdf
2023-11-13T02:22:12 < Laurence_b> >gumstick and atmega168
2023-11-13T02:22:23 < Laurence_b> old school maker tier
2023-11-13T02:22:34 < catphish> hopefully i won't be participating in that
2023-11-13T02:22:57 < Laurence_b> stm32f103, nice
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2023-11-13T11:17:07 < karlp> nomorekaki: nah, I'm fine at my place.
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2023-11-13T11:44:38 < qyx> karlp: have you ever seen openwrt caching "device not present" status?
2023-11-13T11:45:25 < qyx> this modem is a bit slow and tty devices appear after a while but openwrt refuses to bring the interface up because device is not prsent
2023-11-13T11:45:34 < qyx> ifdown/ifup doesn't help
2023-11-13T11:45:47 < qyx> changing the device to something else and back helps
2023-11-13T11:46:01 < qyx> (eg. ttyUSB0 to ttyUSB1 and back)
2023-11-13T11:50:29 < karlp> nah, we only ever built up two or three boards with the modems on it, it never went live.
2023-11-13T11:50:42 < karlp> I just remember generally hating modem software environment :)
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2023-11-13T12:45:42 < qyx> much hate here too
2023-11-13T12:45:52 < qyx> never works as it should
2023-11-13T13:11:15 < srk> with modemM[3~\manager?
2023-11-13T13:11:30 < srk> kbdborken
2023-11-13T13:13:24 < karlp> modemmanager mostly works, except when it doesn't
2023-11-13T13:13:35 < karlp> and then you're in the "everything is custom and special behind the scenes"
2023-11-13T13:14:31 < srk> of course, it's full of quirks (I know its ex-maintainer :))
2023-11-13T13:14:58 < srk> garbage in, garbage out.. when hw side sucks, wcyd
2023-11-13T13:15:13 < srk> add usb reset into the mix :D
2023-11-13T13:18:44 < jpa-> i've never used modemmanager, but it sometimes gets installed and starts yelling AT AT AT to my serial ports
2023-11-13T13:24:01 < jpa-> meh, turns out STM32 ethernet PTP timer isn't all that useful as a general time reference - it gets reset whenever you reset the MAC, and resetting the MAC is required for recovery of abnormal events such as RX buffer full
2023-11-13T13:43:02 < zyp> aww
2023-11-13T13:52:08 < qyx> srk: no the classical openwrt's 3g/umts pppdf things
2023-11-13T13:52:10 < qyx> -s
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2023-11-13T15:05:23 < karlp> fuckign 100M ethernet in the office.  gonna have to get that fixed at some poitn.
2023-11-13T15:11:33 < specing> blast from the past
2023-11-13T15:15:41 < karlp> doesn't normally matter, but downloading a 20Gig windows VM
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2023-11-13T15:25:18 < qyx> https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/nov/11/astronaut-toolbag-earth-spacewalk
2023-11-13T15:25:21 < qyx> ok lol
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2023-11-13T19:08:04 < ventYl> karlp: did corpo HQ introduce magic 100mbit VPNed line as the shiniest blast of bleeding edge networking technology?
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2023-11-13T22:13:59 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FF-vsLtmXUAAUzuH.jpg
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2023-11-13T22:27:36 < Steffanx> what is this I don't even
2023-11-13T22:31:45 < qyx> do you even to do
2023-11-13T22:31:49 < qyx> I don't
2023-11-13T22:32:57 < qyx> TIL LTE cat 1 != cat 1bis
2023-11-13T22:33:50 < qyx> and I completely forget which t1s mac+phy I have chosen in the past
2023-11-13T22:36:23 < qyx> also do we have a recommended usb-c dfp ic?
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2023-11-13T22:48:55 < qyx> I am struggling with routing this 14 pin usb-c connector, cannot do it with 5/5 mil apparently
2023-11-13T22:54:22 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/T0uYf/Screenshot_2023-11-13_21-54-03.png
2023-11-13T22:56:00 < qyx> oh it worked in the past https://bin.jvnv.net/file/3azid/Screenshot_2023-11-13_21-55-37.png
2023-11-13T22:56:17 < qyx> ha but with 4/4
2023-11-13T22:59:23 < machinehum> jbo: Which riscv stuff are you working with?
2023-11-13T22:59:40 < machinehum> I just bought myself an Ox64 and milkv duo
2023-11-13T23:02:02 < jbo> machinehum, it's FPGA crap
2023-11-13T23:02:13 < jbo> I just made a mistake in a commit to the FreeBSD repo and now I look like an idiot.
2023-11-13T23:05:37 < machinehum> Gotcha
2023-11-13T23:06:21 < machinehum> I feel once this BL808 gets reasonably upstreamed it's going to change everything
2023-11-13T23:06:23 < machinehum> It's insane
2023-11-13T23:06:39 < machinehum> https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Ox64
2023-11-13T23:06:50 < machinehum> Wifi/Bt and shit... probably a sub$ chip
2023-11-13T23:07:15 < qyx> I would stay calm
2023-11-13T23:07:32 < machinehum> qyx: Why? I like getting excited
2023-11-13T23:07:54 < qyx> I have bl602 for some time now and the software doesn't look more usable than when I got it
2023-11-13T23:09:27 < machinehum> bl808 is quite a bit more interesting, w/ the 64MB internal ram
2023-11-13T23:09:55 < machinehum> Meaning baby linux can happen, meaning the pine 64 people will build stuff around it
2023-11-13T23:10:44 < machinehum> I imagine the Ox64 was a colab between the BL & P64 for this exact reason
2023-11-13T23:11:21 < machinehum> bl808 kinda just seems like a esp32 
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2023-11-13T23:26:52 < qyx> does it really have internal ram?
2023-11-13T23:29:09 < qyx> the more important thing is it has a CAN controller
2023-11-13T23:29:11 < qyx> and RMII
2023-11-13T23:29:39 < qyx> anyway, if it doesn't support low power modes properly, it is a no-go for IoT
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2023-11-13T23:34:54 < nomorekaki> 100megs is fine
2023-11-13T23:34:57 < nomorekaki> for personal use
2023-11-13T23:37:23 < qyx> so if implementing a DFP, is 12k to 3V3 on both CC lines enough to advertise 1.5 A?
2023-11-13T23:37:58 < zyp> you're also not allowed to turn on vbus before you sense a valid pulldown on the other end
2023-11-13T23:38:35 < qyx> ok so not enough
2023-11-13T23:39:20 < qyx> I simply cannot find a simple DFP controller ideally coupled with a e-fuse
2023-11-13T23:43:59 < jbo> qyx, hang on
2023-11-13T23:44:11 < jbo> qyx, you need a USB-C PD downstream (sink) controller?
2023-11-13T23:44:42 < qyx> yes but no PD
2023-11-13T23:44:46 < qyx> 5V/3A only
2023-11-13T23:44:49 < qyx> actually 1.5 A only
2023-11-13T23:44:57 < jbo> oh, I only got a PD part for you, sry
2023-11-13T23:45:20 < qyx> tusb320/fusb303 + e-fuse attached to the ID pin is probably ok
2023-11-13T23:45:28 < qyx> such hassle
2023-11-13T23:49:09 < qyx> sorry I need a downstream/source
2023-11-13T23:49:16 < qyx> upstream sinks
2023-11-13T23:49:47 < zyp> should be all in one parts
2023-11-13T23:50:30 < zyp> here you go: https://www.ti.com/product/TPS25821
2023-11-13T23:51:05 < qyx> how do you even
2023-11-13T23:51:52 < qyx> I am probably blind
2023-11-13T23:51:53 < qyx> thanks
--- Day changed ti marras 14 2023
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2023-11-14T00:09:26 < Steffanx> Here some musics for nomorekaki https://www.twitch.tv/arptryx . No clue who this guy is but it sounds like kakimusics 
2023-11-14T00:13:16 < nomorekaki> kinda yea
2023-11-14T00:13:29 < nomorekaki> karlp: magma when?
2023-11-14T00:28:46 < machinehum> qyx: Yeah
2023-11-14T00:29:07 < machinehum> qyx: Not sure it's lower power modes
2023-11-14T00:46:54 < jadew> I'm about to quit my new job (already sent the email)
2023-11-14T00:47:23 < jadew> Turns out I can't get past bad code quality.
2023-11-14T00:48:16 < ventYl> can't you improve it?
2023-11-14T00:49:18 < jadew> Boss won't allow me. He has this weird concept that it's better to patch things fast with complete disregard for what it does to the maintainability of the thing.
2023-11-14T00:50:18 < jadew> This is the nature of our last disagreement - I wanted to fix something properly (and did), and he still wants to leave the bug in but apply less thorough changes, because he perceives that as less risky.
2023-11-14T00:51:47 < jadew> I even explained why his proposed changes wouldn't fix the root cause and still allow for some very ugly bugs, but he basically pulled rank and told us off (me and the dev working on it).
2023-11-14T00:52:14 < jadew> Super stressful working like this..
2023-11-14T00:52:47 < qyx> oh I habe been there once
2023-11-14T00:52:56 < jadew> What did you do?
2023-11-14T00:53:12 < qyx> I told them to gtfo
2023-11-14T00:53:59 < qyx> there were license violations, obvious shitty code, etx
2023-11-14T00:54:22 < qyx> and they wanted to add features to that codebase
2023-11-14T00:54:36 < jadew> Yup, sounds exactly the same.
2023-11-14T00:54:58 < jadew> I told them to halt that and focus on refactoring for a while, but it fell on deaf ears.
2023-11-14T00:55:12 < qyx> they considered it good
2023-11-14T00:55:31 < jadew> Lol, it's exactly like this here.
2023-11-14T00:56:23 < jadew> I can't convince him that the code is as bad as it is.
2023-11-14T00:56:41 < qyx> there was a huge changelog on top of the main *.c
2023-11-14T00:57:06 < qyx> I found very interesting thiņgs there
2023-11-14T00:58:12 < qyx> in the end I got two independent reports their product doesn't work as advertised, so I ended it
2023-11-14T00:58:40 < jadew> What did you end, the product?
2023-11-14T00:58:51 < qyx> the episode.
2023-11-14T00:59:25 < qyx> there were a couple of hate mails, etc, and the life goes on
2023-11-14T00:59:33 < qyx> another company blacklisted
2023-11-14T00:59:38 < jadew> Addressed to you?
2023-11-14T00:59:45 < qyx> yeah
2023-11-14T00:59:55 < jadew> That's low...
2023-11-14T01:01:42 < jadew> What bothers me the most, is that from the big refactoring that I was proposing, I reduced my expectations to just keeping things on a relatively sane path (not making things worse), but it seems like that's a problem too...
2023-11-14T01:02:24 < qyx> I would not even bother
2023-11-14T01:02:53 < qyx> like I am not even bothering to be nice to people when there is no hope
2023-11-14T01:02:55 < antto> am i reading right that there's FPU only on the 320MHz risc-v core of that BL808, and no FPU on the 480MHz one?
2023-11-14T01:11:22 < ventYl> jadew: ah, ok. leave this job as quickly as possible.
2023-11-14T01:16:05 < jadew> I probably will, but it's still a little scary for reasons I don't understand.
2023-11-14T01:16:25 < jadew> Up until 5 months ago I was unemployed for more than 5 years.
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2023-11-14T01:41:29 < karlp> nomorekaki: my bet is late this week, maybe monday.
2023-11-14T01:41:36 < karlp> who knows though...
2023-11-14T01:42:03 < karlp> ventYl:no, some predecessor set up an old 10/100 switch on the back of the desk to have more ports for devices.
2023-11-14T01:43:50 < karlp> qyx: isn't TPS25821 what you're looking for?
2023-11-14T01:48:39 < zyp> already told him that
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2023-11-14T02:18:00 < Laurence_b> tranny or not? https://www.youtube.com/@engineerkala
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2023-11-14T09:59:40 < ventYl> karlp: breath of the history
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2023-11-14T12:46:07 < Laurenceb_> sup trolls
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2023-11-14T12:48:32 < Laurenceb_> this is weird: printf only ever prints a single line
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2023-11-14T13:13:28 < Steffanx> Is that weird?
2023-11-14T13:15:56 < Laurenceb_> yeah
2023-11-14T13:16:01 < Laurenceb_> its like it locks up
2023-11-14T13:16:08 < Laurenceb_> no other lines are ever printed
2023-11-14T13:23:17 < Laurenceb_> int fputc (int c, FILE *stream)
2023-11-14T13:23:18 < Laurenceb_> {
2023-11-14T13:23:18 < Laurenceb_>     Serial.write((char)c) ;
2023-11-14T13:23:19 < Laurenceb_>     return c;
2023-11-14T13:23:19 < Laurenceb_> }
2023-11-14T13:23:25 < Laurenceb_> seems ok?
2023-11-14T13:27:35 < Streaker> add a carriage return and try again
2023-11-14T13:29:56 < Streaker> itoa?
2023-11-14T13:29:56 < Laurenceb_> printf("Test\r\n");
2023-11-14T13:32:29 < Laurenceb_> I should probably connect jtag and stop using tarduino shit
2023-11-14T13:36:59 < Laurenceb_> looks like something is locking up
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2023-11-14T13:48:53 < Laurenceb_> damn
2023-11-14T13:49:02 < Laurenceb_> "Error: open failed"
2023-11-14T13:50:55 < Laurenceb_> is there a copy of stm32cubeprogrammer.exe anywhere?
2023-11-14T13:53:26 < Laurenceb_> nvm found one
2023-11-14T13:53:49 < Laurenceb_> any ideas what could cause this error other than faulty cable?
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2023-11-14T13:58:08 < PaulFertser> Laurenceb_: with OpenOCD you get open failed when USB device is really not there or permissions are wrong
2023-11-14T13:58:18 < Laurenceb_> ooh
2023-11-14T13:58:25 < PaulFertser> Laurenceb_: run with -d3
2023-11-14T13:58:30 < PaulFertser> And pastebin output
2023-11-14T13:58:31 < Laurenceb_> this is windows
2023-11-14T13:58:35 < Laurenceb_> ok
2023-11-14T13:58:43 < PaulFertser> Laurenceb_: install WinUSB driver for the device then
2023-11-14T14:02:49 < Laurenceb_> Error: 118 819 stlink_usb.c:3374 stlink_usb_usb_open(): open failed
2023-11-14T14:02:49 < Laurenceb_> Debug: 119 831 hla_layout.c:35 hl_layout_open(): failed
2023-11-14T14:02:50 < Laurenceb_> Debug: 120 840 command.c:541 run_command(): Command 'transport init' failed with error code -4
2023-11-14T14:12:21 < Laurenceb_> looks like my discovery board might be broken
2023-11-14T14:14:58 < Laurenceb_> oh sheeet
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2023-11-14T14:15:17 < Laurenceb_> burnt out USB cable from perman00b guy putting 24V into an ESP32
2023-11-14T14:15:31 < Laurenceb_> this also explains why his esp32 is broken
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2023-11-14T14:31:47 < Laurenceb_> hmm looks like I cant break into printf as its library code without debugging symbols
2023-11-14T14:31:57 < Laurenceb_> printf is being called, but there is no output
2023-11-14T14:32:05 < Laurenceb_> apart from the first time its called
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2023-11-14T14:43:13 < mawk> you can do it in assembly Laurenceb_ 
2023-11-14T14:43:21 < mawk> but you can also use newlib with symbols
2023-11-14T14:43:26 < mawk> or even better, don't use printf
2023-11-14T14:43:37 < Laurenceb_> its convenient
2023-11-14T14:45:04 < mawk> use printf from segger rtt Laurenceb_ 
2023-11-14T14:45:06 < mawk> it's smaller
2023-11-14T14:45:17 < mawk> and you're not using slow uart
2023-11-14T14:45:28 < mawk> anyway you can break on printf fine
2023-11-14T14:45:33 < mawk> and you can step through instructions
2023-11-14T14:45:53 < PaulFertser> Laurenceb_: printf failing might mean malloc doesn't work properly, sometimes due to bad _sbrk or similar.
2023-11-14T14:45:59 < Laurenceb_> its not working here, I think symbols are missing
2023-11-14T14:46:23 < Laurenceb_> PaulFertser: interesting, but would that explain it only printing a single line?
2023-11-14T14:46:31 < mawk> symbols missing doesn't matter
2023-11-14T14:46:35 < mawk> you can still break on it
2023-11-14T14:46:42 < Laurenceb_> hmm
2023-11-14T14:46:47 < PaulFertser> Laurenceb_: no. If you're printing to stdout try calling fflush on it.
2023-11-14T14:46:50 < mawk> printf needs malloc (in the newlib) if you're using %f or stuff like that
2023-11-14T14:46:57 < Laurenceb_> ok
2023-11-14T14:47:09 < Laurenceb_> printf("Test\r\n"); is my only call
2023-11-14T14:47:12 < PaulFertser> Laurenceb_: as stdout is \n line buffered by default
2023-11-14T14:47:19 < Laurenceb_> aha
2023-11-14T14:47:25 < PaulFertser> Laurenceb_: how do you know your second call is ever made?
2023-11-14T14:47:33 < mawk> you're not even using the features of printf there
2023-11-14T14:47:36 < mawk> how is that convenient
2023-11-14T14:47:36 < Laurenceb_> I can break on it
2023-11-14T14:47:48 < Laurenceb_>  mawk: to test if printf will work
2023-11-14T14:48:32 < Laurenceb_> while(1) { delay(100); printf("test\r\n");}
2023-11-14T14:53:48 < Laurenceb_> int fputc (int c, FILE *stream){ Serial.write(*(char*)&c); return c; }
2023-11-14T14:54:47 < PaulFertser> Laurenceb_: so you have int c, and then you take a pointer on it and then dereference? Why..
2023-11-14T14:55:18 < Laurenceb_> to get a char - its copypastered code
2023-11-14T14:56:12 < PaulFertser> Laurenceb_: if all your code is like that why do you expect anything to work at all...
2023-11-14T14:56:41 < Laurenceb_> lol
2023-11-14T14:56:43 < PaulFertser> I'd put a breakpoint on that fputc itself to see how it's getting called.
2023-11-14T14:57:06 < PaulFertser> Laurenceb_: sometimes it really feels like you're high all the fucking time...
2023-11-14T14:57:20 < Laurenceb_> lmao
2023-11-14T14:59:39 < specing> maybe those silicone valley companies all have coke dispensers on premises, instead of coffee
2023-11-14T15:01:22 < Laurenceb_> yeah somethings screwed
2023-11-14T15:01:40 < Laurenceb_>  "function fputc not defined"
2023-11-14T15:01:42 < PaulFertser> I thought coke makes people agitated but not particularly silly.
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2023-11-14T15:04:16 < specing> lol ragequit
2023-11-14T15:04:19 < specing> or bossman arrived
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2023-11-14T15:30:35 < Laurenceb_> hmm yeah I can't break in printf
2023-11-14T15:30:51 < PaulFertser> Laurenceb_: probably your fputc isn't getting run at all?
2023-11-14T15:31:04 < PaulFertser> Laurenceb_: breaking on functions doesn't depend on debug symbols
2023-11-14T15:31:40 < Laurenceb_> ok
2023-11-14T15:32:08 < Laurenceb_> the weird thing is that it prints a single line
2023-11-14T15:32:49 < PaulFertser> Probably not with your function?
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2023-11-14T15:33:09 < Laurenceb_> hmm ok
2023-11-14T15:33:18 < Laurenceb_> with my function commented out the port is always busy
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2023-11-14T15:33:33 < PaulFertser> What does that even mean?
2023-11-14T15:34:08 < Laurenceb_> I dont know, its an error from arduino ide
2023-11-14T15:34:30 < Laurenceb_> maybe I'm not initialising the usbserial correctly
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2023-11-14T15:39:12 < Laurenceb_> terraterm gives error 1b1
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2023-11-14T15:42:44 < Laurenceb_> ok I dont know wtf is going on
2023-11-14T15:42:50 < Laurenceb_> now its permanently busy
2023-11-14T15:43:29 < PaulFertser> Permanoob infected your windoze with permabusy virus
2023-11-14T15:45:05 < Laurenceb_> yeah wtf
2023-11-14T15:45:19 < Laurenceb_> pity I dont know how windozer works, or what a busy port means
2023-11-14T15:46:15 < PaulFertser> You probably started to arduino ide instances or something
2023-11-14T15:47:30 < Laurenceb_> ok
2023-11-14T15:51:15 < Laurenceb_> now its saying "Board at COM17 not available"
2023-11-14T15:57:48 < Laurenceb_> ok now it works, just    Serial.println("Test");
2023-11-14T16:02:35 < Laurenceb_> hmm looks like printf actually breaks the USBserial driver
2023-11-14T16:02:49 < Laurenceb_> which also causes windozer to act weird
2023-11-14T16:08:06 < Laurenceb_> I'll ask in #arduino
2023-11-14T16:22:21 < Laurenceb_> #define: linker input file unused because linking not done
2023-11-14T16:22:24 < Laurenceb_> wtf
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2023-11-14T16:34:52 < Laurenceb_> sheet its working
2023-11-14T16:35:13 < Laurenceb_> error was in tarduino libs that were trying to do weird shit at the same time as my code
2023-11-14T16:35:51 < Laurenceb_> https://pastebin.com/Jfsc5x81
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2023-11-14T17:57:06 < Laurenceb_> hmm something is corrupting memory
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--- Log closed ti marras 14 19:35:56 2023
--- Log opened ti marras 14 19:36:09 2023
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2023-11-14T22:59:54  * qyx at the test pad insemination phase
2023-11-14T23:01:38 < qyx> karlp: I heard the unrest is spreading in the Reykjavík direction
2023-11-14T23:07:40 < karlp> that's exagerating a bit.
2023-11-14T23:08:05 < karlp> the dyke inturstion is longer than initially recognized, so "towards reykjavik" sure, but... not meaningfullly.
2023-11-14T23:09:17 < qyx> I said direction.. :P
2023-11-14T23:10:00 < karlp> most bullshit right now is building a "protective wall" aroundthe power plant.  (and also, conveniently, blue lagoon)
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2023-11-14T23:10:15 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.net/Indian_Bronson/status/1509725881295548450#m
2023-11-14T23:10:21 < Laurence_b> tranny or not? https://www.youtube.com/@engineerkala
2023-11-14T23:10:29 < karlp> onlyyou care lolrence
2023-11-14T23:10:54 < qyx> geothermal power plant?
2023-11-14T23:10:55 < qyx> is it?
2023-11-14T23:10:59 < karlp> yeah,
2023-11-14T23:11:10 < qyx> it is going to get some pimp up
2023-11-14T23:11:24 < karlp> but we tried building walls for one of the last eruptions, and it merrily flowed over 8m walls, 
2023-11-14T23:11:43 < qyx> time to invent lava pumps
2023-11-14T23:12:11 < karlp> and we don't even _have_ lava right now, so we hav eno idea where it will come up, so we're just getting a special tax, through justice department, "for flexibility" to just go and build a wall around a privately owned plant, and a privately owned spa.
2023-11-14T23:12:42 < qyx> oh yeah I heard that on youtube comments
2023-11-14T23:12:43 < karlp> they're either going to get steamrolled by lava, or be unused, 
2023-11-14T23:12:48 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FFPRSm_7XwAU3v4S.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
2023-11-14T23:12:53 < karlp> just sounds like a fucking way to burn money and hand it contractors
2023-11-14T23:12:53 < qyx> peeople are not very happy about it
2023-11-14T23:13:05 < karlp> it just seems so half arsed.
2023-11-14T23:13:24 < karlp> we've got a pile of money in an avalanche protection fund, but that's "not flexible enough" to use now, 
2023-11-14T23:13:34 < karlp> and avanlaches come from a certain area, and have certain known aspects,
2023-11-14T23:13:41 < karlp> lava is just "hi! we're here now!"
2023-11-14T23:13:58 < karlp> so this idea of building a wall, when it could well come up inside the wall is just absolutely poitnless.
2023-11-14T23:14:36 < karlp> if this was a serious concern that power plants should have, they should all have them built into them as part of their cosntruction plans, not justhave the state fund emergency construction 
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2023-11-14T23:14:48 < qyx> but they knew they are in the concerned region when they were building the power plant, didn't they?
2023-11-14T23:14:49 < karlp> we've had an erution a year within 10k of the damn place, and they did nothing at all.
2023-11-14T23:14:57 < karlp> not when they were bulding, no..
2023-11-14T23:15:03 < karlp> plant's easily 30 years old now.
2023-11-14T23:16:07 < qyx> so the dyke whatever thing is completely new?
2023-11-14T23:16:19 < karlp> yeah.
2023-11-14T23:16:50 < karlp> but the last time this area had eruptions, it had 800 yers of quiet, and then 200 years of steady on and off activity.
2023-11-14T23:17:03 < karlp> we started the last three years with activity after 800 years...
2023-11-14T23:17:35 < karlp> I'm having a hard time being sympathetic to a power plant that sold out to canadian investors.
2023-11-14T23:18:19 < karlp> and regardless of ownership, just the futility of building it when it's so close it might well erupt within the walls they make anyway,
2023-11-14T23:18:56 < karlp> and even just outside, unless they're planning 20-30m walls (they're not, that's crazy earthworks) it won't be high enough anyway) so it' sjust ... handing money to bulldozer drivers to burn.
2023-11-14T23:19:07 < qyx> they should be offered an insurance "we will cover your needs if you pay us $$ô the next minimum of 10 years"
2023-11-14T23:19:28 < karlp> lol
2023-11-14T23:19:44 < qyx> exactly like it works in private sector
2023-11-14T23:19:45 < karlp> anyway.... I was feeling motivated earlier to work on this board.. I guess I should continue?
2023-11-14T23:19:59 < qyx> oh yeah, motivation is volatile
2023-11-14T23:20:05 < qyx> don't let it run away
2023-11-14T23:20:26 < karlp> I've successfully unsubscribed to my "bitnami jenkins" subscription on jenkins though, so they'll stop emailing with new releases when I don't have any VMs running.
2023-11-14T23:20:27 < karlp> thanks aws.
2023-11-14T23:20:51 < karlp> yeah man, doing a g431 pcb!
2023-11-14T23:21:00  * qyx gets some Eluveitie in the ears
2023-11-14T23:21:03 < karlp> goign to yolo usb2-hs on 2 layer and cross my fingers.
2023-11-14T23:21:13 < qyx> g431 is hs?
2023-11-14T23:21:23 < karlp> but I'm all caught up on hör berlin, so not sure what I'll listen too.
2023-11-14T23:21:43 < karlp> no, das keyboard 5 replacement controller, with a usb2 hub instead of usb3.
2023-11-14T23:21:56 < karlp> g431 is just something jlc has in stock, and QMK project supports.
2023-11-14T23:22:51 < qyx> in other news
2023-11-14T23:23:11 < qyx> yesterday I was bitten by "oh RTC, what for, we have NTP!"
2023-11-14T23:23:43 < qyx> the board was rebooted, LTE didn't came up and the data was happily saved with wrong timestamps
2023-11-14T23:24:29 < zyp> that's why I did supercap RTC on a board way back
2023-11-14T23:24:33 < karlp> ahhh, we never enabled data unless "ntpdate -q localhost" returned success :)
2023-11-14T23:24:42 < zyp> just so it has sane timestamps until it can sync with NTP
2023-11-14T23:24:54 < karlp> and the front page diags page had three items, first of which was NTP sync :)
2023-11-14T23:25:18 < qyx> yeah I am going to do both
2023-11-14T23:25:31 < qyx> zyp: any particular low leakage supercap did you use?
2023-11-14T23:25:49 < zyp> some ~200mF coin cell-ish thing
2023-11-14T23:25:49 < qyx> I tried two times, I got ~100 uA leakage
2023-11-14T23:26:00 < karlp> I'm back from 42 freertos tasks on m4 today, back to 12 freerots tasks on a fucking m0, and notsureyet tasks on a esp32 communicating over NIH framed uart tomorrow...
2023-11-14T23:26:04 < zyp> dunno if it worked, I didn't do software for it
2023-11-14T23:26:08 < karlp> I love "hardware" companies....
2023-11-14T23:26:19 < qyx> so I am leaning towards using a classic polymer 6v3 cap
2023-11-14T23:27:39 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/SjChc/Screenshot_2023-11-14_22-27-16.png
2023-11-14T23:27:49 < qyx> space became a very precious commodity when the board became finished
2023-11-14T23:28:25 < qyx> bottom left is unusable, so maybe i could put the cap somewhere on the right
2023-11-14T23:30:03 < qyx> 680 uF should keep the RTC up for 100 seconds
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2023-11-14T23:56:42 < Steffanx> Whats this huge ass IC qyx?
--- Day changed ke marras 15 2023
2023-11-15T00:03:24 < qyx> imx6 SoM
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2023-11-15T13:19:41 < karlp> with something like this: https://www.satellitetoday.com/government-military/2023/10/03/fcc-fines-dish-150000-for-failed-deorbit/
2023-11-15T13:19:49 < karlp> dish's plan was to de-orbit _up_ ?
2023-11-15T13:20:09 < karlp> why aren't they deorbiting down to have them burn up in the atmosphere?
2023-11-15T13:20:46 < karlp> ok, maybe because it was 2tonnes...
2023-11-15T13:21:22 < jpa-> because it was in geosynchronous orbit
2023-11-15T13:21:31 < jpa-> getting back to atmosphere from there takes a lot of fuel
2023-11-15T13:22:38 < karlp> I know geo is high, but cna't it just burn enough an dthen decay?
2023-11-15T13:22:49 < karlp> I'm guessing it being a fatboi was part of it too.
2023-11-15T13:24:01 < jpa-> geo is at 36000 km, to get it to decay fast would need to take it down to 100 km or less
2023-11-15T13:25:09 < jpa-> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Solar_system_delta_v_map.svg  looks like easier to crash it on moon than get it to burn on earth :)
2023-11-15T13:28:29 < karlp> what, 1472+679 to crash on the moon, vs 1472+">2440" to get back down..? am I reading that right?
2023-11-15T13:28:36 < karlp> ok. cool.
2023-11-15T13:30:12 < jpa-> i guess it depends also if you want to get to a nice circular low earth orbit to decay in peace, or if you are fine with swooping through all the other orbits for a few months in a huge decaying ellipse :)
2023-11-15T13:30:46 < jpa-> though once you get low enough to decay, might as well go all the way and crash into ocean
2023-11-15T13:31:01 < jpa-> getting to venus seems like a reasonable option, too!
2023-11-15T13:32:06 < jpa-> we can start filling venus orbit ahead of time, because we can't fill it once earth is surrounded by too much debris to launch anything
2023-11-15T13:53:43 < qyx> no prob, paw patrol can fly through the tiniest hole
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2023-11-15T14:41:10 < englishman> canada's greatest export
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2023-11-15T14:49:52 < mawk> pat'patrouille*
2023-11-15T14:49:56 < mawk> that's how it's called
2023-11-15T14:50:00 < mawk> in the one true lingua franca
2023-11-15T14:54:59 < englishman> it's from english canada tho
2023-11-15T14:56:05 < englishman> fun fact: the first big CGI-only tv show is also from english canada (1994!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReBoot
2023-11-15T14:57:05 < jpa-> typical canadian city: fire and rescue department is outsourced to a 10-year-old and a couple of stray dogs and the mayor consults her pet chicken on every decision
2023-11-15T14:57:25 < englishman> and they are volunteers (for the government)
2023-11-15T14:58:15 < jpa-> in finland it is pretty common to outsource fire department to volunteers except in cities
2023-11-15T14:58:44 < jpa-> they do get paid though :)
2023-11-15T15:10:15 < specing> here volunteer firefighting is a long and mass tradition
2023-11-15T15:10:27 < specing> every village no matter how small has a fire department
2023-11-15T15:10:36 < specing> like 10% of population are volunteer firefighters
2023-11-15T15:10:45 < karlp> "big" -> no-one has ever heard of it...?
2023-11-15T15:11:13 < karlp> notable for being one of the first made for tv cgi series is not the same as "big cgi only tv show"
2023-11-15T15:12:05 < englishman> well it was 30 years ago
2023-11-15T15:12:11 < englishman> and a tv show for kids
2023-11-15T15:32:20 < jbo> moin
2023-11-15T15:35:57 < qyx> jpa-: lold
2023-11-15T15:36:02 < mawk> in france they are all volunteers except in Paris and Marseille where they are military, jpa- 
2023-11-15T15:36:07 < mawk> for some reason
2023-11-15T15:36:25 < mawk> probably some relic from the napoleonic era or maybe even the french kingdom
2023-11-15T15:37:52 < specing> military firefighters? Fighting fire with fire?
2023-11-15T15:39:11 < mawk> yes
2023-11-15T15:39:16 < qyx> here we call it uh.. ministry of internal affairs?
2023-11-15T16:34:39 < ventYl> englishman: it seems that canada has some power in animation industry, even autodesk's M&E offices are there
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2023-11-15T17:45:32 < karlp> man, sounds like bluez is going to keep giving me bluez
2023-11-15T17:45:48 < karlp> only now for bt classic, instead of btle at oldjob
2023-11-15T17:47:23 < jbo> PaulFertser, ping
2023-11-15T17:48:48 < PaulFertser> jbo: pong
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2023-11-15T17:49:10 < jbo> apparently I have become the maintainer of the OpenOCD port (package) for FreeBSD now
2023-11-15T17:49:34 < qyx> congratulations
2023-11-15T17:50:02 < PaulFertser> jbo: nice! I can tell you that OpenOCD maintainers usually have very healthy relationship with all the maintainers.
2023-11-15T17:50:24 < jbo> PaulFertser, that's good to hear :)
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2023-11-15T17:51:21 < jbo> apparently I have become the maintainer of the OpenOCD port (package) for FreeBSD now
2023-11-15T17:51:36 < jbo> ah, that was the wrong window to arrow up+enter  q__q
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2023-11-15T18:00:55 < PaulFertser> jbo: feel free to ask if anything's unclear
2023-11-15T18:06:45 < jbo> PaulFertser, thank you - I appreciate that!
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2023-11-15T21:26:44 < qyx> rip karl https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_AamxzBH2o
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2023-11-15T22:35:46 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.net/memcculloch/status/1724839895309414778#m
2023-11-15T22:35:47 < Laurence_b> kek
2023-11-15T22:36:01 < Laurence_b> retarded if true
2023-11-15T22:36:45 < Laurence_b> orbital sides at the "everybody clapped" meme
2023-11-15T22:38:54 < Laurence_b> wow emdrive guys twatter is full cringe
2023-11-15T22:39:15 < Laurence_b> >unironic russel brand posting
2023-11-15T22:40:17 < Laurence_b> lmao https://nitter.net/RogTallbloke/status/1723400362504183906#m
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2023-11-15T22:53:05 < qyx> is GCT legit?
2023-11-15T22:53:12 < qyx> their drawings and models look very good
2023-11-15T22:56:57 < karlp> yeah, I've used them on a couple of things.
2023-11-15T22:57:21 < qyx> 2e for a SIM card holder though
2023-11-15T22:57:31 < karlp> wat? lol no.
2023-11-15T22:58:14 < qyx> yeah SIM4065
2023-11-15T22:58:20 < qyx> push-push
2023-11-15T22:58:37 < karlp> https://github.com/karlp/zypsnips/blob/master/sim-card-notes.md not helpful?
2023-11-15T22:58:55 < qyx> hm, I haven't checked
2023-11-15T22:59:15 < karlp> 2ff?!
2023-11-15T22:59:19 < karlp> what year is this? :)
2023-11-15T22:59:30 < karlp> I only looked at 3ff :)
2023-11-15T22:59:44 < karlp> sim7100 and compatible...
2023-11-15T22:59:45 < qyx> if course 2ff
2023-11-15T22:59:49 < karlp> fuck 2ff.
2023-11-15T22:59:57 < karlp> no wonder you're out of space :)
2023-11-15T22:59:58 < qyx> I am not going to manipulate sand dust on bridges
2023-11-15T23:00:05 < karlp> I didn't say 4ff :)
2023-11-15T23:00:29 < qyx> I am about to use *SD* push-push sockets on the data collection shit board
2023-11-15T23:00:30 < karlp> I'd hazard that you really should have sim cards lined up before you're turning up on site....
2023-11-15T23:00:48 < qyx> lol touch real life
2023-11-15T23:01:10 < qyx> they are constantly being replaced
2023-11-15T23:01:16 < karlp> .... why?
2023-11-15T23:01:29 < qyx> because we have 4 operators and every single site is specific
2023-11-15T23:01:30 < karlp> like... why athe fuck are you replacing sim cards?!
2023-11-15T23:01:37 < karlp> you fucking what?!
2023-11-15T23:01:40 < karlp> lol.
2023-11-15T23:01:58 < karlp> I thought that sort of coverage bullshit disappeared in the early 2000s.
2023-11-15T23:02:01 < qyx> what are you lolling at?
2023-11-15T23:02:16 < qyx> oh yes it did, we have very good coverage
2023-11-15T23:02:21 < karlp> you have to literalyl consider physically installation to decide what operator to buy a sim from?
2023-11-15T23:02:23 < qyx> but you forgot I am doing shit where nobody goes
2023-11-15T23:02:26 < qyx> not even electricity
2023-11-15T23:02:30 < qyx> yes
2023-11-15T23:02:43 < qyx> sometimes even directional antennas
2023-11-15T23:03:01 < karlp> so what, you have a stack from different vendors, and you're on site, using debug interface to work out signal strength and swapping sims?
2023-11-15T23:03:41 < qyx> yeah, scan, get somenumbers, do some antenna rotation if omnidirectional has nothing, replace SIM
2023-11-15T23:03:56 < karlp> sure you don't want 1ff cards then? :)
2023-11-15T23:04:08 < karlp> though, at least here, we don't even offer them anymore.
2023-11-15T23:04:24 < karlp> you get a ~half sized 1FF card, with the 2/3/4ff sims on it.
2023-11-15T23:04:27 < qyx> it depends, mikrotiks use 2FF and it is a real hassle to replace them in winter
2023-11-15T23:04:44 < qyx> because they also use those dual card holders
2023-11-15T23:05:02 < karlp> yeah, I'm used to roaming agreements being in position sufficientlty that you just pick a contract with an operator, you don't need to pick sims based on locations.
2023-11-15T23:05:06 < karlp> that still sounds like garbage.
2023-11-15T23:05:58 < qyx> there are some, I can cover 4 operators with 3 sims
2023-11-15T23:06:36 < karlp> fuck yeah, first pay check in a while
2023-11-15T23:06:48 < qyx> I don't understand why network registration can't be simply done using a preshared key
2023-11-15T23:06:49 < karlp> time go buy shit then again I guess :)
2023-11-15T23:10:40 < Laurence_b> https://ivolimited.us/technology/
2023-11-15T23:10:41 < Laurence_b> lol
2023-11-15T23:11:35 < qyx> fuk karlp you grumped me
2023-11-15T23:16:54 < karlp> so, are bluetooth calipers ... just going to be a waste of money ithink...
2023-11-15T23:22:53 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/7oCrY/Screenshot_2023-11-15_22-22-37.png
2023-11-15T23:23:02 < qyx> I concluded it is easier to do the footprint based on the 3D model
2023-11-15T23:23:12 < qyx> because dimensions in the drawing are useless
2023-11-15T23:24:01 < qyx> karlp: what for?
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2023-11-15T23:38:38 < karlp> just buying new ones, and they're not much more expensive, but no. I reallllly don't need that.
2023-11-15T23:39:32 < qyx> I cannot find a use case except digitising parts into a 3D CAD
2023-11-15T23:40:16 < qyx> hm why do they connect the CD swith to the shield/case?
2023-11-15T23:40:54 < qyx> if the SIM holder protrudes the case, it should be connected to the case shielding
2023-11-15T23:41:02 < qyx> which may be at a different potential than GND
2023-11-15T23:41:09 < qyx> but the modem is referenced to GND
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--- Day changed to marras 16 2023
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2023-11-16T00:27:13 < mawk> zyp how many different sequences A_1 ⊆ A_2 ⊆ … ⊆ A_n ⊆ {1; 2; …; 10} can you form in total? where 1 ≤ n ≤ 10
2023-11-16T00:28:17 < mawk> for instance for n = 5 we can have the sequence {} ⊆ {2; 3} ⊆ {2; 3} ⊆ {1; 2; 3; 6} ⊆ {1; 2; 3; 6; 10}
2023-11-16T00:28:23 < mawk> among others of course 
2023-11-16T00:28:53 < mawk> so you see A_i does not have to be a proper subset of A_{i+1}
2023-11-16T00:28:58 < mawk> and can also be the empty set
2023-11-16T00:29:23 < mawk> we can also have all A_i in the sequence be equal of course, that's allowed 
2023-11-16T00:30:11 < mawk> where the A_i are all sets, that means unordered and no repetitions 
2023-11-16T00:30:15 < mawk> like a python set()
2023-11-16T00:30:19 < englishman> fenugrec: day of national mourning
2023-11-16T00:33:42 < mawk> this time Steffanx can't cheat because they didn't solve it in the other channel
2023-11-16T00:37:49 < mawk> also computers are strongly discouraged from being used of course 
2023-11-16T00:37:55 < mawk> except for the final result calculation 
2023-11-16T00:38:49 < mawk> calculation ✅
2023-11-16T00:38:57 < mawk> enumeration ❌❌❌
2023-11-16T01:06:23 < fenugrec> englishman never cared for that band, but rip anyway
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2023-11-16T02:03:06 < karlp> who died?
2023-11-16T02:16:48 < aandrew> hm, I am making a serial line glitcher and am thinking of using a pair of LFSRs and a retriggerable monostable to do it
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2023-11-16T02:18:49 < aandrew> one 8-bit LFSR has a 2-input X(N)OR between Q6 and either Q4 or Q7 (select xor/xnor and q4/q6 or q6/q7 to mix it up) - output of that goes to the retriggerable monostable -- that gives me a variable glitch time and variable delay between glitches
2023-11-16T02:20:34 < aandrew> to mix it up more, the clock for that LFSR is just the output of another LFSR similarly configured: X(N)OR between Q5 and Q3 or Q6 -- that'll give me a nonuniform clock to shift the glitch out with, as well as serve as a wonky clock divider
2023-11-16T02:21:40 < aandrew> it's not *random* but by playing with the configuration and clock rate it'll serve as something pretty variable and nondeterministic compared to the serial line I'm glitching
2023-11-16T02:22:30 < fenugrec> karlp, one quebec folk band musician
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2023-11-16T03:41:59 < kdehl> Um. I accidently programmed something wrong so that now I can't connect to my device. st-flash suggests I should connect under reset, but when I do, the device reports 0kb flash and refuses to be programmed.
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2023-11-16T04:11:14 < kdehl> I think I might have disabled the JTAG.
2023-11-16T04:15:41 < kdehl> Oh fucking shoot me. I have forgotten to link the reset pin of the JTAG connector to the actual reset pin of the MCU.
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2023-11-16T08:20:41 < qyx> well done, been there
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2023-11-16T08:25:21 < antto> just check everything 23892382938 times
2023-11-16T08:26:31 < srk> qyx: what's the imx6 som?
2023-11-16T08:27:17 < srk> gm innovators
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2023-11-16T08:53:43 < jpa-> kdehl: if you have a reset button, you can program by holding it down and releasing it 0.5 seconds after you run st-flash
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2023-11-16T10:02:28 < jadew> Not sure why youtube recommends me a recording of the weather forecast from Tallahassee... from 2016
2023-11-16T10:03:27 < jadew> I watched it out of curiosity, but nothing happened in it. I am now one of the 6k people who have seen that video since 7 years ago, when it was uploaded.
2023-11-16T10:23:46 < mawk> <kdehl> Oh fucking shoot me. I have forgotten to link the reset pin of the JTAG connector to the actual reset pin of the MCU
2023-11-16T10:23:56 < mawk> on the board at work they did that
2023-11-16T10:24:04 < mawk> they wired TRST instead 
2023-11-16T10:24:07 < mawk> which is useless 
2023-11-16T10:24:27 < mawk> so to flash it I have to hold the reset button, start openocd, and release the button 
2023-11-16T10:27:25 < qyx> a reset button?
2023-11-16T10:37:19 < Steffanx> jadew I recommend this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLOPygVcaVE
2023-11-16T10:47:59 < qyx> gct has colour models https://bin.jvnv.net/file/cUIoO/Screenshot_2023-11-16_09-47-39.png
2023-11-16T10:54:13 < jadew> Steffanx, it's interesting that it has "most watched" parts
2023-11-16T10:55:43 < jadew> unfortunately it's in a loop
2023-11-16T10:57:17 < mawk> yes qyx you don't have a reset button?
2023-11-16T10:57:44 < mawk> we have a reset button, an usb port for debug serial, a 19 pin cortex debug port
2023-11-16T10:57:47 < mawk> all very good stuff 
2023-11-16T10:57:52 < mawk> except the TRST fuckup
2023-11-16T11:00:40 < qyx> no I don't debug my devices, they all work on first try
2023-11-16T11:01:21 < PaulFertser> mawk: there's one trick: you can use "init; reset halt; wait_halt 5000" and then iirc you'll have not one second but five seconds to release it.
2023-11-16T11:03:38 < mawk> ah nice
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2023-11-16T11:03:43 < mawk> thanks
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2023-11-16T11:04:58 < mawk> openocd wouldn't verify the peogram when flashing with stlinkv3 because the mcu reset itself to up after programming 
2023-11-16T11:05:19 < mawk> but I pulled the latest changes from master and now it works
2023-11-16T11:05:31 < mawk> they bought a bunch of stlink v3s
2023-11-16T11:05:39 < mawk> including the mini ones
2023-11-16T11:05:55 < mawk> such a shame it's only for stm32
2023-11-16T11:06:01 < mawk> for some unknown reason
2023-11-16T11:06:14 < mawk> even in the dapdirect mode thing
2023-11-16T11:06:28 < mawk> so the subset problem qyx
2023-11-16T11:06:32 < mawk> do*
2023-11-16T11:06:49 < PaulFertser> mawk: it looks like it was made on purpose but the firmware team repeatedly declined to clarify
2023-11-16T11:06:55 < mawk> yeah
2023-11-16T11:07:13 < mawk> maybe should try in french
2023-11-16T11:07:48 < PaulFertser> mawk: there's a known way of how to repack the binary so if you feel like it and you have hardware handy you can RE and find the check. I tried doing it but didn't spend enough time and also I didn't have stlinkv3 for actual testing so it went nowhere. But modified firmware runs so you can do it.
2023-11-16T11:08:13 < PaulFertser> mawk: I mean they even refuse to clarify internally to other ST devs
2023-11-16T11:08:29 < mawk> « excusez moi mes très estimés messieurs, pourriez-vous éclairer ma lanterne quant à l'inaptitude (accidentelle je n'en doute pas) du STLinkv3 à fonctionner avec des cœurs ARM autres que les vôtres ? veuillez agréer l'expression de mes sentiments distingués »
2023-11-16T11:08:31 < mawk> ah
2023-11-16T11:09:08 < karlp> did lalrence ever get bluetooth rfcomm working on "modern" linux?  sdptool and rfcomm are both "gone" from modern bluez, and the alternatives are.... very unclear...
2023-11-16T11:09:52 < mawk> is the alternative the dbus thing?
2023-11-16T11:10:21 < karlp> presumably, but it's almost like they didn't make the tools to go via dbus?
2023-11-16T11:11:37 < mawk> yeah
2023-11-16T11:11:39 < PaulFertser> /usr/bin/rfcomm still present in Debian unstable https://packages.debian.org/sid/bluez
2023-11-16T11:13:48 < mawk> 232713 <mawk> how many different sequences A_1 ⊆ A_2 ⊆ … ⊆ A_n ⊆ {1; 2; …; 10} can you form in total? where 1 ≤ n ≤ 10
2023-11-16T11:13:48 < mawk> 232816 <mawk> for instance for n = 5 we can have the sequence {} ⊆ {2; 3} ⊆ {2; 3} ⊆ {1; 2; 3; 6} ⊆ {1; 2; 3; 6; 10}
2023-11-16T11:13:58 < mawk> where each A_i is a set
2023-11-16T11:14:14 < mawk> it's very easy once you know the answer
2023-11-16T11:14:46 < mawk> the trick: consider each number from 1 to 10 separately
2023-11-16T11:15:05 < mawk> I found the answer via ugly method, then looked at the result and inferred the above trick
2023-11-16T11:15:23 < mawk> bit the ugly method is not that ugly
2023-11-16T11:15:51 < mawk> call f(n, e) the number of sequences of length n with e elements
2023-11-16T11:16:07 < mawk> clearly f(1, e) = 2^e, and then you can do a recurrence relationship 
2023-11-16T11:19:45 < BrainDamage> PaulFertser: debian is a bit of a world of their own, they even ship a custom ifconfig that internally wraps ip command
2023-11-16T11:22:57 < karlp> I'm currently shelving the bluetooth spp shit, and going to the rest of the things that need work...
2023-11-16T11:22:58 < mawk> yes and it's beautiful 
2023-11-16T11:23:08 < karlp> still, MAX3223E is from both TI _and_ analog/maxim.
2023-11-16T11:32:52 < PaulFertser> BrainDamage: funny, didn't know that, having no usecases for ifconfig in many years.
2023-11-16T11:40:33 < karlp> lol, jlinkrttviewer scrolls to the bottom all the time on new output.  fine, it has an option to disable that, but even with it off, if you are trying to select something to copy/paste, it clears your selection when it gets new output.
2023-11-16T11:40:44 < karlp> I had to _disconnect_ to be able to copy some text...
2023-11-16T11:41:13 < karlp> need to get the target support working so I can use proper tools instead of PROtools
2023-11-16T11:50:26 < qyx> are you allowed to use proper tools
2023-11-16T12:05:57 < karlp> not sure how anyone is meant to have an opinion on that other than me...
2023-11-16T12:07:22 < karlp> imagine making a daughterboard, that's goin to be required most of the time, and deciding that _2_ connectors, a 4 pin picoblade, and a 6 pin picoblade, were the right way of doing it.
2023-11-16T12:07:37 < karlp> I believe the intention was that there' dbe a daughterboard that only used one of the connectors, but... wat.
2023-11-16T12:07:52 < karlp> some weird ass hw eng here.
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2023-11-16T15:59:38 < fenugrec> musics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnIq9zJ0wxo
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2023-11-16T16:15:40 < karlp> perfect timing.
2023-11-16T16:17:02 < karlp> anyonw know how to exit from gdb and let a process resume running?
2023-11-16T16:17:13 < fenugrec> 'detach' ?
2023-11-16T16:17:17 < karlp> I can do "mon resume" , then ctrl-d to exit gdb, but is there a standard way?
2023-11-16T16:17:50 < karlp> ok, I had tried detach, 
2023-11-16T16:17:59 < karlp> but that crashes.... /builds/idf/crosstool-NG/.build/xtensa-esp32-elf/src/gdb/gdb/thread.c:95: internal-error: thread_info* inferior_thread(): Assertion `tp' failed. :)
2023-11-16T16:18:15 < karlp> and given that ctrl-d without "mon resume" also says "detachign" I wasn't sure it was going to be doing anything else.
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2023-11-16T16:21:07 < karlp> check out my container magic: $ podman run -it  --rm -v $(realpath ..):/project:Z -w /project/blah -e HOME=/tmp docker.io/espressif/idf:v4.3.2 xtensa-esp32-elf-gdb -ex 'target ext host.containers.internal:3333' ./build/blah.elf
2023-11-16T16:21:27 < qyx> pod what
2023-11-16T16:21:37 < karlp> rootless containers.
2023-11-16T16:21:38 < qyx> oh docker
2023-11-16T16:21:47 < qyx> oh my precious god
2023-11-16T16:22:36 < karlp> given how precious espressif is as their system requirements to install different versions of esp-idf and how badly they like having more than one installed at a time, this actually works surprisingly well...
2023-11-16T16:22:41 < karlp> despite the rather obtuse command lines.
2023-11-16T16:23:09 < qyx> doesn't it install locally into a single directory?
2023-11-16T16:23:19 < qyx> and you use some env vars to point to the right one,
2023-11-16T16:24:40 < karlp> it's meant to, yes, but I had no end of trouble with trying different versions in parallel on another system.
2023-11-16T16:25:09 < karlp> and then of course, older esp-idf doesn't install with python3.10 or newer and that sort of soup
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2023-11-16T17:07:09 < zyp> karlp, depends completely on the gdbserver
2023-11-16T17:07:22 < zyp> for blackmagic, detach works
2023-11-16T17:08:51 < karlp> in other news, https://unix.stackexchange.com/a/486249 works for "rfcomm" to a point at least.
2023-11-16T17:09:05 < karlp> use gnome UI to see device, try and connect, get pairing and press confirm.
2023-11-16T17:09:23 < karlp> it will then fail to connect, because it doesn't know what to do with the SPP profile...
2023-11-16T17:09:39 < karlp> but then the socket api will work, which is... ok I guess.
2023-11-16T17:10:16 < karlp> bluez just throwing out rfcomm 10 years ago and going "community should write a replacement if this is important" sounds like it's going really well.
2023-11-16T17:10:28 < zyp> hah
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2023-11-16T17:14:02 < karlp> all the embedded board vendor help pages are just "you use sdpd and rfcomm, of course we're still using those in our 10 year old vendor bsp!"
2023-11-16T17:17:48 < karlp> another option, poorly documented. is "install blueman"
2023-11-16T17:17:59 < karlp> then choose the device, right click, and choose "connect to serial"
2023-11-16T17:18:15 < karlp> and then you get a (root owned) /dev/rfcommN again too.
2023-11-16T17:20:35 < zyp> do you get a blueman group then?
2023-11-16T17:21:58 < karlp> just reading https://github.com/blueman-project/blueman/pull/526 and I'm not sure.
2023-11-16T17:22:04 < karlp> I think they punted to the system for now?
2023-11-16T17:22:13 < zyp> I'm just being silly
2023-11-16T17:22:53 < karlp> man, ok, I can confirm that things work like this, but it's super unpleasant ocmpared to how android offers it...
2023-11-16T17:23:16 < karlp> anyway, one thing figured out.... close a few tabs...
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2023-11-16T18:44:23 < qyx> karlp: has you really stepped down to esp32 and BT?
2023-11-16T18:44:30 < qyx> that's.. unfortunate
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2023-11-16T18:51:44 < karlp> I've got a sea of things here now.
2023-11-16T18:52:00 < karlp> a whole slew of different kinetis parts, tm4c, xmc4800 _and_ esp32.
2023-11-16T18:52:34 < karlp> the bluetooth is "compatible with this thing we released in 1997" so ... it can stay, but I plan on adding more too it, because... that's what developers do right?
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2023-11-16T19:00:27 < qyx> yeah break old working things by their innovations
2023-11-16T19:00:40 < qyx> I am familiar with that
2023-11-16T19:01:11 < karlp> surely the esp32 can do more than just SPP and nothing else... :)
2023-11-16T19:02:40 < ventYl> I like piece of modern C++ which is longer but at least more cumbersome than not-so-modern C++
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2023-11-16T19:27:37 < bitmask> hmm
2023-11-16T19:28:27 < bitmask> whats the best way to drive a transformer from DC? is sine wave the best? and what do I need to know about frequency
2023-11-16T19:41:07 < zyp> what transformer?
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2023-11-16T19:54:50 < bitmask> will be shitty hand wound
2023-11-16T19:58:39 < qyx> it is quite relevant what kind of transformer/core it is
2023-11-16T20:07:35 < bitmask> I think I have a sheet of silicon steel somewhere, maybe I can cut it into high aspect ratio strips to make a square rod and coat in varnish to reduce eddy currents. lets say the rod is 15-20mm square and 75mm tall. I have no idea how many turns and stuff id need, Im not even sure what currents are possible like this. 10-15W is prob what id need on the secondary
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2023-11-16T20:38:50 < qyx> center tapped primary + two mosfets at 50-100 Hz should be ok
2023-11-16T20:39:35 < qyx> that's how old AC inverters were made back in the days of copying schematics by hand from radio amateur magazines
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2023-11-16T20:42:38 < bitmask> two mosfets meaning a square wave? thats not a problem? guess i should do some research
2023-11-16T20:43:55 < bitmask> why center tapped primary?
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2023-11-16T21:25:03 < PaulFertser> bitmask: guess to use a half bridge instead of full bridge? qyx 
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2023-11-16T21:48:53 < qyx> yes
2023-11-16T21:49:27 < qyx> push-pull, not half bridge
2023-11-16T21:54:04 < qyx> push pull center tap = full bridge no center tap is basically the same wrt. driving the transformer
2023-11-16T21:54:28 < qyx> except push-pull has 2 times lower winding density
2023-11-16T21:54:39 < qyx> but also 2 times less transistors
2023-11-16T21:55:25 < qyx> half bridge does not require center tap, but you need double the winding ratio
2023-11-16T21:56:02 < qyx> and bulky caps
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2023-11-16T22:34:56 < bitmask> so If i wanted a primary with 48 turns, I would actually have 96 with a center tap? or would I keep it at 48. 
2023-11-16T22:35:30 < qyx> 48+48, yes, with push-pull
2023-11-16T22:35:36 < qyx> or 96 with forward
2023-11-16T22:35:59 < qyx> both use 2 transistors, but push-pull has obviously lower resistance
2023-11-16T22:36:25 < qyx> sorry the other way around
2023-11-16T22:36:27 < qyx> it is too late
2023-11-16T22:37:08 < bitmask> what is the other way around
2023-11-16T22:37:22 < bitmask> and what is forward
2023-11-16T22:37:44 < qyx> with push pull, you are applying full primary voltage to one half (48), then the full voltage on the second half (48), which generates a negative field because it is wound in the opposite direction
2023-11-16T22:38:00 < bitmask> right
2023-11-16T22:38:20 < qyx> with forward converter topology, you are switching one end of the primary winding from 0 to full, the other end is kept at 1/2 by the caps
2023-11-16T22:38:39 < qyx> so effectively you are using only half of the primary voltage to energise the winding
2023-11-16T22:38:57 < bitmask> oh i see, im not familiar with that topology
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2023-11-16T22:39:08 < qyx> so you need 24 turns in order to keep the ratio the same
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2023-11-16T22:39:36 < qyx> s/forward/half bridge
2023-11-16T22:39:43 < bitmask> gotcha
2023-11-16T22:39:51 < qyx> forward is another one
2023-11-16T22:40:23 < qyx> and now copy&paste the text, delete bullshit an replace the required phrases
2023-11-16T22:40:32 < qyx> and you get a concise text
2023-11-16T22:40:48 < bitmask> i'll just ignore anything not referring to push pull
2023-11-16T22:41:30 < qyx> what are you transforming?
2023-11-16T22:43:26 < bitmask> POV globe, was trying to figure out if transmitting power to the spinning side would be easy enough this way
2023-11-16T22:45:08 < qyx> https://www.homemade-circuits.com/7-simple-inverter-circuits/
2023-11-16T22:45:10 < qyx> heh such circuits
2023-11-16T22:48:35 < Ecco> Hi :)
2023-11-16T22:48:47 < Ecco> I'm probing an Amazon Echo device
2023-11-16T22:48:57 < Ecco> Trying to find out JTAG or UART pins
2023-11-16T22:49:11 < Ecco> I've soldered a wire to every TP on the PCB
2023-11-16T22:49:16 < Ecco> Thing looks like a spider now
2023-11-16T22:49:27 < Ecco> There's this pin that outputs a ~1MHz signal
2023-11-16T22:49:40 < Ecco> As in, there's "stuff" going on the wire, at around 1Mhz
2023-11-16T22:49:46 < Ecco> Most likely not an UART
2023-11-16T22:49:51 < Ecco> Could it be one?
2023-11-16T22:49:57 < Ecco> Seems unlikely, right?
2023-11-16T22:50:08 < Ecco> It's not a clock either (it's erratic)
2023-11-16T22:50:16 < Ecco> Do you guys have any idea what it could be?
2023-11-16T22:58:22 < bitmask> damn, just went to the attic to find my sheet of silicon iron.... its much smaller than I remembered it being
2023-11-16T22:58:58 < bitmask> 9" x 7"
2023-11-16T22:59:51 < qyx> that's like nothing
2023-11-16T23:00:00 < qyx> related, I am eyeballing this https://www.tme.eu/sk/details/55216-p1s2/toroidne-transformatory/talema/
2023-11-16T23:00:16 < qyx> I am curious if it could be run at higher frequency than 50 Hz without much losses
2023-11-16T23:00:24 < qyx> to get ~ 5 kVA of it
2023-11-16T23:01:15 < qyx> and then of course filter the output to get low thd 50 Hz
2023-11-16T23:05:49 < bitmask> 230mm x 178mm, I could do a 15x12x60mm rod :P
2023-11-16T23:07:47 < qyx> how do you plan to close the magnetic field?
2023-11-16T23:07:53 < qyx> rod to rod will not couple sufficiently
2023-11-16T23:09:50 < bitmask> really? I knew it wouldnt be great but I thought winding both on a single rod would work
2023-11-16T23:10:44 < qyx> it works, I did it as a kid but idk what was the efficiency
2023-11-16T23:10:57 < bitmask> what about a bigger ring on the outside and connect the two on the top and bottom
2023-11-16T23:11:23 < bitmask> how does mixing materials work? like the outer ring regular steel or something
2023-11-16T23:11:48 < qyx> Ecco: pics pls
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2023-11-16T23:13:48 < bitmask> im not sure how magnetics work. do you want metal anywhere the strongest magnetic fields can be or can it be a bit sparse and that will cause the field lines to follow the path
2023-11-16T23:14:32 < Ecco> qyx: https://i.imgur.com/1xGeDdw.png
2023-11-16T23:15:16 < bitmask> like what if I made the square rod and then took some C pieces and connected them to the tops and bottoms of the rod so top down would look like *
2023-11-16T23:15:55 < qyx> Ecco: i mean the signal
2023-11-16T23:16:20 < qyx> bitmask: idk
2023-11-16T23:16:32 < Ecco> Oh sorry :)
2023-11-16T23:16:51 < qyx> I would get inspired by shapes of those real cores
2023-11-16T23:17:07 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/WDQzhbY.png
2023-11-16T23:17:12 < bitmask> i guess I'll just try with what I have and see what happens
2023-11-16T23:19:45 < qyx> Ecco: it could be anything, eg. a PDM microphone in a low power mode is usually 768 kHz - 1 MHz, programmable RGB LEDs are single wire + clock at about 800-1200 kHz, etc.
2023-11-16T23:20:49 < qyx> the duty being close to 50% suggests some DC-free encoding but it doesn't look like manchester
2023-11-16T23:21:00 < qyx> yeah it could be PDM
2023-11-16T23:21:56 < qyx> if you can record it, say some words and low pass filter the signal to see :)
2023-11-16T23:25:36 < bitmask> shit i dont know how to make it possible to spin if I close the magnetic loop
2023-11-16T23:25:46 < bitmask> I'd need at least a small gap
2023-11-16T23:25:53 < Ecco> qyx: This is recorded right at boot
2023-11-16T23:25:55 < bitmask> I guess thats better than not closing it at all
2023-11-16T23:26:03 < Ecco> Also, the signal is always the same at boot
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2023-11-16T23:57:53 < qyx> zyp: metral simply does not fit https://bin.jvnv.net/file/dQL4w/Screenshot_2023-11-16_22-57-29.png
2023-11-16T23:58:29 < qyx> first plugin unit is at 0 HP, 4.07 mm PCB top from the left, 1.5 mm first pin from PCB top, that is 5.57 mm
2023-11-16T23:58:40 < qyx> but the metral spans to 5.9 mm from the first pin
2023-11-16T23:58:55 < qyx> so I am curious about the half-pitch gap on the left of the subrack
2023-11-16T23:59:05 < qyx> I don't like it but apparently it must be there
--- Day changed pe marras 17 2023
2023-11-17T00:00:09 < qyx> or I could yolo that 0.33 mm
2023-11-17T00:01:34 < zyp> yeah, I'm making use of it for the pcie stuff too
2023-11-17T00:03:08 < kdehl> jpa-: Interesting. I couldn't get that to work. I'm soldering a jumper wire to the board instead.
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2023-11-17T00:15:39 < kdehl> Hm. Still didn't work.
2023-11-17T00:17:01 < bitmask> think this will be okay? :P https://i.imgur.com/zGmJlw0.png
2023-11-17T00:17:14 < bitmask> two small air gaps and a rotating top part
2023-11-17T00:17:59 < Ecco> ha-HA
2023-11-17T00:18:01 < Ecco> qyx, I got it
2023-11-17T00:18:04 < Ecco> it's actually an UART
2023-11-17T00:18:15 < Ecco> At 115200*8
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2023-11-17T00:23:14 < qyx> 921600?
2023-11-17T00:23:24 < qyx> if you measured it exactly, it would ring a bell :P
2023-11-17T00:24:28 < qyx> looks almost done https://bin.jvnv.net/file/q3UMG/Screenshot_2023-11-16_23-24-05.png
2023-11-17T00:26:11 < bitmask> what is worse for a transformer, gaps in the core loop or distance between the core and the secondary winding
2023-11-17T00:30:57 < ds2> the core gaps are sometimes intentional to modify the saturation behavior
2023-11-17T00:31:42 < bitmask> yea i know, im wondering what has more of an impact if you need to add one or the other
2023-11-17T00:33:21 < ds2> worse in what way?
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2023-11-17T00:33:40 < ds2> distance would decrease the coupling... i.e. old RF circuits with air core transforms use that for tuning
2023-11-17T00:36:23 < bitmask> which would reduce efficiency more. I want highest efficiency possible but I need to either have two small air gaps or have a few mm between the core and the secondary loop
2023-11-17T00:36:34 < bitmask> Im leaning towards the gaps
2023-11-17T00:36:38 < bitmask> the first
2023-11-17T00:37:11 < ds2> is this a power transformer?
2023-11-17T00:37:37 < ds2> or signal or matching or ?
2023-11-17T00:39:11 < bitmask> im going to attempt both but lets say power
2023-11-17T00:39:17 < ds2> if I have to make a wild guess, I'd look at in terms of captured flux
2023-11-17T00:40:08 < ds2> a gap would let the flux spread out at the break in the core.... but distance from the core (but still around the core should still allow the loops to capture the flux
2023-11-17T00:40:38 < ds2> but this is guessing and it has been like 25years since I last looked at magnetics :(
2023-11-17T00:42:47 < qyx> this is insane, we are getting really old
2023-11-17T00:43:34 < qyx> I remember the times when we said "oh idk, I left uni 2 years ago"
2023-11-17T00:44:26 < ds2> it doesn't help that vendors give you all the tools to do magnetics eval then we get flooded with stock inductors 
2023-11-17T00:49:52 < kdehl> Okay, so this is interesting. I ran Cube IDE and programmed the device in there. It worked just fine. After that I can run st-flash again.
2023-11-17T00:50:00 < kdehl> I guess Cube IDE reset the device somehow.
2023-11-17T00:53:07 < kdehl> Does Cube IDE program "under reset" by default?
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2023-11-17T13:39:08 < jadew> Check this out, paypal won't allow me to pay for shit because: "There is no funding source added to your PayPal account. Please add a card to continue."
2023-11-17T13:39:23 < jadew> Yet, I have 6k in the paypal account. How about that funding source?
2023-11-17T13:59:34 < specing> add paypal to your paypal
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2023-11-17T14:27:00 < jadew> specing, lol
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2023-11-17T14:48:54 < specing> jadew: could try adding alipay? :P
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2023-11-17T15:13:00 < jadew> Ended up adding a card, but it bothered me. What if I didn't have one?
2023-11-17T15:20:16 < specing> jadew: paysafecard?
2023-11-17T15:43:11 < jpa-> i once tried to use paysafecard, it didn't work *anywhere*
2023-11-17T15:43:42 < jpa-> IIRC you can pay with paypal balance without a card, if you have verified your identity
2023-11-17T15:53:01 < mawk> you can use paysafecard to fill up a prepaid mastercard
2023-11-17T15:53:02 < mawk> and pay with that
2023-11-17T15:53:32 < mawk> that's what I used to do to "launder" a mostly unlimited withdrawal limit to steal money from my bank
2023-11-17T15:53:48 < mawk> withdraw the cash, buy PCS, put on the mastercard, buy bitcoin or monero, buy heroin, profit
2023-11-17T15:53:58 < mawk> now the bank is not very happy but they don't know where I live
2023-11-17T16:06:04 < specing> lool
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2023-11-17T17:00:47 < BrainDamage> not as crazy as netflix money laundering
2023-11-17T17:01:58 < BrainDamage> sorry, not spotify, not netflix
2023-11-17T17:02:12 < BrainDamage> for context: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et8R5i5UEjY
2023-11-17T17:02:32 < mawk> ah yes nice technique
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2023-11-17T18:19:20 < kdehl> Um. I have a custom board featuring a STM32F446RET6, a few LEDs and a button. I can blink the LEDs. But I can't read the state of the button.
2023-11-17T18:19:59 < zyp> did you forget pull up/down?
2023-11-17T18:20:00 < specing> PEBKAC?
2023-11-17T18:20:10 < kdehl> The button issconnected between PA8 and ground. I have configured it as input in Cube IDE and enabled a pull-up.
2023-11-17T18:20:11 < specing> Problem Exists between Keyboard and Controller?
2023-11-17T18:20:32 < kdehl> It always returns 0.
2023-11-17T18:21:23 < zyp> I'd figure either the pullup is not enabled or it's shorted to ground somewhere
2023-11-17T18:21:41 < kdehl> I use HAL_GPIO_ReadPin(GPIOA, GPIO_PIN_8);
2023-11-17T18:21:49 < zyp> or maybe you forgot another enable somewhere, like RCC
2023-11-17T18:21:50 < Streaker> test it with an external pullup
2023-11-17T18:22:04 < kdehl> Streaker: Will do.
2023-11-17T18:22:08 < kdehl> Oh RCC.
2023-11-17T18:24:56 < kdehl> Hm. Is that the issue though, since I can blink LEDs?
2023-11-17T18:25:12 < zyp> not if they're in the same bank
2023-11-17T18:25:25 < zyp> if the switch is in a different bank, you could have forgot to enable that bank
2023-11-17T18:28:29 < kdehl> Is RCC something that I need to configure manually?
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2023-11-17T18:30:22 < karlp> everything is...
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2023-11-17T19:32:12 < bitmask> so if I have a transformer made from these: https://www.ebay.com/itm/274767235918 and I cut half the middle barb of the E off (and attach the secondary to it) and drill a hole through the center of the I to attach a rod with the cut-off E part and rotate it, it should still work as a normal transformer right? With less efficiency due to the added air gaps of course.
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2023-11-17T20:00:24 < jpa-> i didn't understand the description, but with the limitation of "less efficiency", it will work as a transformer even if you remove the core altogether
2023-11-17T20:22:25 < mawk> yes bitmask I suppose 
2023-11-17T20:22:51 < mawk> the metal is laminated to begin with
2023-11-17T20:23:42 < mawk> to prevent eddy current from adding up or something 
2023-11-17T20:23:54 < bitmask> i guess my description was shitty
2023-11-17T20:25:22 < bitmask> separating the middle E line of the core and having it rotate won't stop the transformer from working fairly efficiently right?
2023-11-17T20:27:14 < mawk> right 
2023-11-17T20:27:37 < mawk> if when you reseat it the gap where you saw it off is as small as possible 
2023-11-17T20:27:50 < mawk> but why do you want to rotate the — thing of the E
2023-11-17T20:27:52 < bitmask> right
2023-11-17T20:27:52 < bitmask> ok
2023-11-17T20:28:10 < mawk> to go from E| to [ | ] ?
2023-11-17T20:28:34 < mawk> isn't that what you already get putting the transformer on its side
2023-11-17T20:29:29 < bitmask> I want to rotate it the other way, so it stays an E
2023-11-17T20:29:36 < bitmask> and constantly rotate it as its running
2023-11-17T20:29:49 < mawk> ha
2023-11-17T20:29:51 < mawk> why
2023-11-17T20:29:59 < bitmask> to avoid using a slip ring
2023-11-17T20:31:14 < bitmask> I want the stationary (primary) part powered and the rotating (secondary) provides power to the rotating parts
2023-11-17T20:32:46 < bitmask> get it now? think it will work ok?
2023-11-17T20:51:37 < mawk> ah
2023-11-17T20:51:39 < mawk> maybe
2023-11-17T20:51:46 < mawk> if you don't rotate too far
2023-11-17T20:51:49 < mawk> fast*
2023-11-17T20:52:21 < mawk> if your rotation period is too close to the switching freq I'm not sure what will happen but probably nothing good
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2023-11-17T21:19:45 < jpa-> https://news.itsfoss.com/xiaomi-vela-open-source/   ok, this explains why xiaomi has been doing a lot of nuttx development in past year
2023-11-17T21:20:45 < bitmask> well I just ordered the laminates so I can run some tests next wekk
2023-11-17T21:20:46 < bitmask> week
2023-11-17T21:21:42 < jpa-> and xiaomi is actually managing to work with the community quite well.. quite unlike many other large companies meddling with open source
2023-11-17T21:21:44 < bitmask> yes, I'd like to schedule my next nutt
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2023-11-17T22:19:55 < bitmask> holy shit, i swallowed a caffeine pill like 10 min ago. It felt like it kinda got stuck but i drank some water and thought nothing of it, I just burped and powder came all out of my mouth
2023-11-17T22:24:33 < Steffanx> Thanks for this information ☺️
2023-11-17T22:24:56 < Steffanx> How's life in rob235land?
2023-11-17T22:25:02 < bitmask> you say that every time i tell you awesome information, you would be sorry if I ever stopped
2023-11-17T22:25:29 < Steffanx> Its been a while though
2023-11-17T22:26:24 < bitmask> yea true, I'm doing okay now, I was real sick for like a month but that ended like a month ago
2023-11-17T22:26:31 < bitmask> how are you doin
2023-11-17T22:26:39 < bitmask> in windmill land
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2023-11-17T22:27:28 < Steffanx> its not too bad in dutchland
2023-11-17T22:30:25 < bitmask> just ordered some plates to make a transformer. what should I coat them in? (im assuming they dont come precoated)
2023-11-17T22:46:59 < zyp> gasoline
2023-11-17T22:52:45 < bitmask> thanks!
2023-11-17T22:52:50 < bitmask> didnt expect that
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2023-11-17T22:55:53 < nomorekaki> karlp: .is not yet exploded?
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2023-11-17T23:06:10 < Laurence_b> orbital sides
2023-11-17T23:06:11 < Laurence_b> https://nitter.net/RokoMijic/status/1725062868339482914#m
2023-11-17T23:30:54 < qyx> nomorekaki: does not look so
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2023-11-17T23:52:21 < qyx> btw I finished routing of the backplane zyp, it was pretty easy when the pinout is finally done properly
2023-11-17T23:52:34 < qyx> also
2023-11-17T23:52:54  * qyx @ Svalbard - How to Swim Down
2023-11-17T23:53:01 < qyx> kakimusiks
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--- Day changed la marras 18 2023
2023-11-18T00:00:50 < qyx> tct: did you measure sama som with the integrated ethernet phy?
2023-11-18T00:01:09 < qyx> didn't you disconnect it.. physically?
2023-11-18T00:01:20 < qyx> to conserve more power
2023-11-18T00:02:53 < qyx> because acmesystems claims 198 mW
2023-11-18T00:03:03 < qyx> with a discrete ddr3 and no phy
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2023-11-18T02:01:56 < Laurence_b> In June, the president ended a speech in Connecticut with the words “God save the Queen, man”. In the same month, he declared that Vladimir Putin “is clearly losing the war in Iraq” and announced “plans to build a railroad from the Pacific all the way across the Indian Ocean”.
2023-11-18T02:01:58 < Laurence_b> orbital sides
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2023-11-18T14:06:18 < kdehl> So, I'm back to my non-functioning button reads. I have left RCC with its default configuration. I can blink LEDs and stuff, but reading the button always returns 0. The button has a pull-up enabled and is connected to ground.
2023-11-18T14:07:40 < kdehl> Port A[7:0] are connected to a 7-segment display. And it counts the way it should. A[11:9] are connected to generic LEDs. A8 is connected to the button.
2023-11-18T14:08:04 < kdehl> All LED pins are configured as outputs, while A8 is configured as input.
2023-11-18T14:08:07 < kdehl> What am I missing?
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2023-11-18T14:16:49 < Streaker> did you check the voltage on the pin with a multimeter?
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2023-11-18T14:19:36 < kdehl> Right. Forgot about that.
2023-11-18T14:19:54 < kdehl> I just realized though that the button might be rotated 90 degrees. Huh.
2023-11-18T14:21:25 < kdehl> Yeah. It's 0 volts. And I have shorted it to ground.
2023-11-18T14:21:45 < kdehl> So it is what it is supposed to be. Heh.
2023-11-18T14:23:50 < kdehl> Yeah I checked. The input pin is always shorted to ground.
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2023-11-18T14:57:07 < Steffanx> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhJRzQsLZGg T-00:03:00
2023-11-18T14:57:28 < Steffanx> or pick https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JD1CGS96rt4 which goes up later? :D
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2023-11-18T16:27:15 < Steffanx> Oh lol that last one was a fake channel 
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2023-11-18T18:04:25 < PaulFertser> In case someone wonders how to read from STM8S, this looks like "the answer" https://itooktheredpill.irgendwo.org/2020/stm8-readout-protection/
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2023-11-18T18:42:00 < Laurence_b> https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.98zp02S3PnH5rtxXk15EUQHaIX?rs=1&pid=ImgDetMain
2023-11-18T18:50:20 < Steffanx> Laurence_b: Can you post more interesting links like PaulFertser posted earlier?
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2023-11-18T20:17:28 < qyx> k going to try kicad current
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2023-11-18T20:26:48 < bitmask> ugh, this datasheet blows
2023-11-18T20:27:29 < bitmask> i gotta find my logic analyzer
2023-11-18T20:36:07 < bitmask> anyone use macroblock led drivers?
2023-11-18T20:38:27 < qyx> nah kicad6 has a really ugly icon set
2023-11-18T20:41:28 < qyx> and is insanely slow
2023-11-18T20:41:36 < qyx> compared to 5.x
2023-11-18T20:46:20 < qyx> ok I really wanted to select migrate settings
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2023-11-18T22:10:11 < PaulFertser> And for esp32 flash decryption: https://limitedresults.com/2019/11/pwn-the-esp32-forever-flash-encryption-and-sec-boot-keys-extraction/
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2023-11-18T22:56:03 < machinehum> https://www.luckfox.com/EN-Luckfox-Pico
2023-11-18T22:56:15 < machinehum> These things are coming out real fast lol
2023-11-18T22:56:41 < machinehum> I feal like that rockchip (might) have a better shot of getting mainline support
2023-11-18T22:56:47 < machinehum> Over those BL*** chips
2023-11-18T22:57:59 < qyx> sorry I did misread the name
2023-11-18T23:06:32 < mawk> zyp is hiding from my maths problems
2023-11-18T23:06:38 < zyp> yup
2023-11-18T23:06:48 < mawk> where r u
2023-11-18T23:07:06 < mawk> tied up in Steffanx's basement?
2023-11-18T23:07:12 < zyp> something like that
2023-11-18T23:07:35 < zyp> nah, I saw you posted something the other day, but didn't have time to look at it
2023-11-18T23:07:38 < zyp> and then I forgot
2023-11-18T23:10:31 < qyx> lol rapid unscheduled disassembly
2023-11-18T23:12:16 < mawk> it was a problem which difficulty depends on how difficult you expect it to be
2023-11-18T23:12:37 < mawk> if you saw it in a high school maths exam you probably solve it faster
2023-11-18T23:12:43 < mawk> because you know the solution is easy
2023-11-18T23:13:38 < mawk> the problem was: how many different sequences of sets A_1 ⊆ … ⊆ A_n ⊆ {1; …; 10}, with 1 ≤ n ≤ 10, are there?
2023-11-18T23:14:10 < mawk> for instance with n = 3 such a sequence could be {1} ⊆ {1; 3; 4} ⊆ {1; 3; 4}
2023-11-18T23:14:31 < mawk> so you see the sets don't have to be different, and the nth set doesn't have to contain every number from 1 to 10
2023-11-18T23:15:03 < mawk> we could have a sequence ∅ ⊆ ∅ ⊆ ∅ with only empty sets
2023-11-18T23:15:22 < mawk> or {1; …; 10} ⊆ {1; … 10} with all the numbers all the time
2023-11-18T23:15:35 < zyp> what's ⊆?
2023-11-18T23:15:52 < mawk> subset of
2023-11-18T23:16:06 < mawk> {1; 3} is a subset of {1; 3; 4} for instance 
2023-11-18T23:16:17 < mawk> the empty set ∅ is a subset of every set
2023-11-18T23:16:22 < mawk> and every set is a subset of itself
2023-11-18T23:16:53 < mawk> you also have a symbol for proper subsets, A ⊊ B where you can't have A = B
2023-11-18T23:16:58 < zyp> right
2023-11-18T23:17:11 < zyp> that doesn't render into anything sane here
2023-11-18T23:17:27 < mawk> the = under the ⊆ symbol is to emphasize that the sets can be equal 
2023-11-18T23:17:27 < mawk> ah
2023-11-18T23:17:46 < mawk> it's like a weird C with a bar under
2023-11-18T23:17:52 < mawk> and ⊂ ?
2023-11-18T23:18:11 < zyp> ⊆ does render correctly, also ⊂
2023-11-18T23:18:30 < mawk> we can write A_1 ≤ A_2 ≤ … ≤ A_n also to replace ⊆
2023-11-18T23:18:30 < zyp> but not ⊊
2023-11-18T23:18:32 < mawk> ah nice
2023-11-18T23:18:40 < zyp> although copying ⊊ elsewhere I see what it is
2023-11-18T23:18:59 < zyp> anyway, I think I get the task, let me think about it
2023-11-18T23:19:00 < mawk> some authors use ⊂ to mean ⊊ which is confusing 
2023-11-18T23:20:40 < zyp> so for n=1, there's 2**10 different sets
2023-11-18T23:24:26 < zyp> for n=2 there's 59049 different sequences
2023-11-18T23:24:39 < zyp> that doesn't seem like an obvious pattern…
2023-11-18T23:25:00 < mawk> are you sure about the 59049
2023-11-18T23:25:13 < mawk> ah yes it's correct 
2023-11-18T23:25:25 < mawk> well with just these two numbers you could already see the pattern 
2023-11-18T23:25:37 < mawk> but you can also think about how to go from n = 1 to n = 2
2023-11-18T23:25:57 < zyp> ah, indeed
2023-11-18T23:26:12 < mawk> you will quickly arrive at f(2, 10) = Σ binom(10, k) f(1, k)
2023-11-18T23:26:35 < mawk> = Σ binom(10, k) 2^k = …
2023-11-18T23:26:53 < mawk> if you call f(n, e) the number of sequences of n sets with e elements max
2023-11-18T23:27:30 < mawk> but once you know what f(n, e) looks like and how simple it is you could also discover a simpler way to think about it
2023-11-18T23:28:03 < mawk> thinking about each number from 1 to 10 individually, like in which sets can they be
2023-11-18T23:28:34 < mawk> a number can be in no sets, it can be in A_n, it can be in A_n and A_{n-1}, …
2023-11-18T23:28:44 < zyp> well, this is how I arrived at 59049:
2023-11-18T23:28:45 < zyp> >>> sum(2 ** popcnt(i) for i in range(1024))
2023-11-18T23:28:45 < zyp> 59049
2023-11-18T23:29:19 < mawk> what's popcnt
2023-11-18T23:29:59 < zyp> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popcount
2023-11-18T23:30:41 < mawk> right 
2023-11-18T23:30:59 < mawk> and each of your bitstrings represent if a number is in a sequence then?
2023-11-18T23:32:26 < zyp> answer is 40851766525
2023-11-18T23:32:48 < mawk> if you write the sum as sum(2**k*math.comb(10, k) for k in range(10+1))
2023-11-18T23:32:51 < mawk> yes zyp 
2023-11-18T23:32:59 < mawk> did you see the pattern? for an individual n
2023-11-18T23:33:04 < zyp> yes
2023-11-18T23:33:04 < mawk> so, what f(n, e) is
2023-11-18T23:33:29 < mawk> so that's (n+1)^e, or in our case (n+1)^10
2023-11-18T23:33:41 < zyp> >>> sum((2+i)**10 for i in range(10))
2023-11-18T23:33:42 < zyp> 40851766525
2023-11-18T23:34:03 < mawk> if you think about each number from 1 to 10, they can be in 0 sets, 1 sets, 2 sets, …, n sets of the sequence 
2023-11-18T23:34:09 < mawk> n+1 choices
2023-11-18T23:34:15 < mawk> and 10 numbers total, so (n+1)^10
2023-11-18T23:34:35 < mawk> and then Σ(n+1)^10 summing over n
2023-11-18T23:34:43 < zyp> anyway I spotted the 3**10, just had to verify it held for 4**10 first
2023-11-18T23:34:50 < mawk> the sum over n isn't particularly pretty if we want it analytically 
2023-11-18T23:34:54 < mawk> yeah
2023-11-18T23:35:11 < mawk> well to go from 2^k to 3^k it's particularly pretty with the binomial sum
2023-11-18T23:36:15 < mawk> you can choose k elements from e total in binom(e, k) different ways, so we're summing Σbinom(e, k)2^k to find how many sequences we have for n = 2
2023-11-18T23:36:26 < mawk> e is 10 here
2023-11-18T23:36:36 < mawk> and that's exactly the binomial expansion of (2+1)^e
2023-11-18T23:36:54 < mawk> so we got from 2^10 to 3^10, and so on until 11^10
2023-11-18T23:37:46 < mawk> it's a problem given to (smart) 18-19 years old in the AMC 12 competition 
2023-11-18T23:37:58 < mawk> the last problem on the test, I don't know if I would say the hardest 
2023-11-18T23:52:43 < kdehl> Alright, I rotated the button and the board works. Yay!
--- Day changed su marras 19 2023
2023-11-19T00:02:48 < kdehl> So, this Device Configuration Tool in Cube IDE is incredibly convenient. But if I don't want to use Cube IDE, is there any open source alternative to these convenience functions that are generated by it? Or do I just have to dig deep into the datasheet and set every configuration bit manually?
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2023-11-19T01:47:44 < Mangy_Dog> https://www.therpf.com/forums/threads/first-contact-borg-cube-studio-scale-ish-50cm3.354860/
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2023-11-19T02:41:13 < machinehum> ur crazy
2023-11-19T02:41:18 < machinehum> That's so much work
2023-11-19T03:09:54 < kdehl> Holy smokes these HAL functions are convenient. I feel so spoiled barely having to read the datasheet at all.
2023-11-19T03:25:33 < mawk> HAL 1 — laks 0
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2023-11-19T03:46:13 < kdehl> mawk: laks?
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2023-11-19T07:36:54 < machinehum> kdehl: https://libopencm3.org/
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2023-11-19T09:12:22 < jpa-> why would you read the datasheet anyway, when all the stuff is in refman
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2023-11-19T10:06:51 < qyx> why would you, that's the purpose of the HAL
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2023-11-19T12:56:18 < Steffanx> You meaaaan jpa- 
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2023-11-19T14:00:03 < Laurence_b> kek  https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FF_OHK89WwAAB4t5.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
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2023-11-19T14:33:41 < specing> kek
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2023-11-19T17:57:45 < kdehl> machinehum: Thanks!
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2023-11-19T21:48:20 < nomorekaki> how is innovation?
2023-11-19T21:49:36 < Steffanx> What's innovation?
2023-11-19T21:49:44 < Steffanx> Hows farming nomorekaki ? Did winter arrive yet?
2023-11-19T21:50:04 < nomorekaki> farming dones
2023-11-19T21:50:15 < nomorekaki> feed the moo moo and thats about it
2023-11-19T21:50:49 < nomorekaki> had some construction work for 2months it's about done too
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2023-11-19T21:52:03 < nomorekaki> winter has been here for at least 3weeks idk. snow and all
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2023-11-19T22:23:19 < nomorekaki> have you been iceskating on the river yet steff?
2023-11-19T22:30:04 < Steffanx> lol no.
2023-11-19T22:30:25 < Steffanx> its very rainy here mr nomorekaki 
2023-11-19T22:30:30 < PaulFertser> We still have ~25 C during the day
2023-11-19T22:30:35 < nomorekaki> come to winterland
2023-11-19T22:31:26 < PaulFertser> I didn't really enjoy cycling in the winter :/
2023-11-19T22:36:49 < kdehl> I have a STM32F446. Can I only use the bootloader to load firmware over USB (something called DFU, if I understand it correctly) using the Full-speed USB port (on PA11, PA12), and not the high-speed USB port (on PB14/PB15)?
2023-11-19T22:37:26 < PaulFertser> kdehl: I suggest you read the relevant application note describing bootloader options for this device.
2023-11-19T22:37:59 < PaulFertser> kdehl: if you're talking about ROM bootloader of course. If you're running your own bootloader from flash you can do whatever you want.
2023-11-19T22:39:18 < kdehl> PaulFertser: I'm reading the AN2606 application note. I just realized they mention PA11 and PA12 explicitly there.
2023-11-19T22:39:46 < kdehl> So, I messed this one (too) up. I should have connected the USB port to those pins instead of the high-speed USB port.
2023-11-19T22:40:01 < PaulFertser> kdehl: but you can reflash over UART
2023-11-19T22:40:26 < kdehl> Yes. And using the JTAG. :) So it's not a problem, really. I just wanted to test this feature.
2023-11-19T22:40:45 < kdehl> I built a test board and I just want to test different stuff.
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2023-11-20T15:08:14 < karlp> hrm, if I had an OTG port, used in actual OTG mode, I can't just switch to usb-C with 5.1k fixed pulldowns can I? I need to have switchable to inducate UFP?
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2023-11-20T15:16:43 < zyp> karlp, yes, there's multiple considerations
2023-11-20T15:19:01 < zyp> one is that you need to toggle CC between pullup and pulldown, one is that you need to sense CC to detect when you're connected and what you're connected to and one is that you're not allowed to output vbus before you're connected to a device
2023-11-20T15:20:09 < zyp> good news is that there's all in one chips that'll do all of that for you and just give you a traditional ID signal that you can feed into the OTG stack
2023-11-20T15:21:09 < zyp> or if you've got a reasonably new stm32 with the UCPD peripheral, it'll do the former two for you, just needing an external vbus switch
2023-11-20T15:21:46 < zyp> AIUI the UCPD peripheral can be used to just handle CC pulls/sensing without doing actual PD comms
2023-11-20T15:21:50 < karlp> can I legitimately do power sink only, but dual role?
2023-11-20T15:22:02 < karlp> I'm trying to skim over the specs, but haven't looked for that part before
2023-11-20T15:22:25 < zyp> I'm not entirely sure
2023-11-20T15:22:58 < zyp> AIUI it's possible to separate power and data roles, but I haven't studied the details of *how*
2023-11-20T15:23:30 < karlp> yeah, DRP: sinking host apparently.
2023-11-20T15:23:38 < karlp> I'm going to bet that's not all that well implemented though :)
2023-11-20T15:24:09 < zyp> I mean, it's obviously possible for a host to be a power sink, since that's how every laptop connected to a usb-c dock works
2023-11-20T15:24:28 < zyp> but I'm not sure how it's negotiated
2023-11-20T15:24:50 < zyp> suspect you start with power and data in the same direction and swap one of them, but I'm not sure if both can be swapped
2023-11-20T15:25:12 < zyp> and I'm not sure if swapping has to go through PD, or if there's simpler mechanisms for swapping as well
2023-11-20T15:26:20 < zyp> what's the problem you're trying to solve?
2023-11-20T15:27:24 < karlp> replacing an mini-b connector for OTG with a usb-c connector, and not fucking up the hardware ahead of time.
2023-11-20T15:29:01 < qyx> mini-B for otg?
2023-11-20T15:29:23 < zyp> should be mini-ab if it's compliant
2023-11-20T15:29:30 < mawk> why
2023-11-20T15:29:36 < qyx> because reasons
2023-11-20T15:29:47 < mawk> who's using the other connector
2023-11-20T15:29:56 < qyx> I have never seen mini-b nor mini-ab for OTG though
2023-11-20T15:30:32 < qyx> tusb320 does what zyp said
2023-11-20T15:30:35 < karlp> would be a keyboard/mouse, or probabyl actually a barcode scanner, but I'm trying to confirm if this actually matters.
2023-11-20T15:30:49 < qyx> doing usb-c UFP/DFP/DRP and exposing a ID pin
2023-11-20T15:30:53 < zyp> mini otg was obsoleted long before usb-c
2023-11-20T15:31:17 < zyp> replaced by micro-a/ab
2023-11-20T15:32:16 < zyp> doesn't really matter much from a logical perspective though, mini and micro both use the same ID pin mechanism
2023-11-20T15:35:33 < karlp> yeah, it happens to be mini, but you can pretend I'm saying micro if it makes you happier :)
2023-11-20T15:35:57 < zyp> I'm just happy it gets replaced with usb-c, whatever it was
2023-11-20T15:38:45 < karlp> tusb320 seems to not have "_preferred_" ufp/dfp, only either hard set, or drp, 
2023-11-20T15:38:58 < karlp> ah, it has a duty cycle to advertise dfp vs ufp when it's in drp mode...
2023-11-20T15:39:18 < zyp> that's how preferred works
2023-11-20T15:39:28 < karlp> yeah, I hadn't seen the implementation notes...
2023-11-20T15:46:45 < karlp> right, ok, so there's later amendments to usb-c to support some of this, try.src and try.snk.  
2023-11-20T15:46:54 < karlp> tusb320 family can do those, but only in i2c mode,
2023-11-20T15:49:29 < karlp> and only in the TUSB320xAI versions...
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2023-11-20T15:59:17 < karlp> best solution: "no, we don't need to actually support that"
2023-11-20T16:20:50 < karlp> huh, lots of passing structs by value in this code.  I wonder what perf impaact that is having.
2023-11-20T16:21:07 < zyp> depends entirely on how big they are
2023-11-20T16:32:31 < karlp> M00=2
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2023-11-20T18:56:56 < bitmask> well geez
2023-11-20T18:57:45 < bitmask> I think I found out why my led driver isnt working... I hope at least... it says Vds = Vled - Vf has to be between 0.4V and 1.0V and my Vled is 5V and Vf is at most like 3.2V
2023-11-20T18:58:51 < bitmask> lets try this with a lower voltage
2023-11-20T19:00:49 < mawk> what do you call Vled bitmask 
2023-11-20T19:00:52 < mawk> your supply?
2023-11-20T19:00:59 < mawk> and Vf is the LED forward voltage?
2023-11-20T19:01:11 < bitmask> im not calling it that, the ds is
2023-11-20T19:01:14 < bitmask> but yes
2023-11-20T19:01:16 < bitmask> yes
2023-11-20T19:01:38 < mawk> ah
2023-11-20T19:01:51 < mawk> so you control Vled
2023-11-20T19:02:27 < bitmask> guess so
2023-11-20T19:02:31 < mawk> it's weird that it can't output low voltages
2023-11-20T19:02:36 < bitmask> i'll drop it to like 3.8v and see
2023-11-20T19:02:52 < bitmask> cause im lost as to why its not working if this doesnt fix it
2023-11-20T19:03:36 < mawk> do pros here have boards with NiMH battery charging 
2023-11-20T19:04:09 < mawk> we have a bunch of boards whose NiMH charger IC committed seppuku 
2023-11-20T19:04:16 < mawk> but everything around it still works
2023-11-20T19:05:24 < mawk> the IC has an output pin called DRV made to drive a PNP power transistor as a current/voltage source or whatever, monitoring the battery voltage and the dV/dt to know when to stop
2023-11-20T19:06:02 < mawk> if I drive DRV myself with an opamp in inverting configuration to set the output voltage around 13V it works fine 
2023-11-20T19:06:09 < mawk> so it's the IC's fault
2023-11-20T19:06:40 < jpa-> which ic?
2023-11-20T19:09:32 < qyx> which seppuku?
2023-11-20T19:10:40 < mawk> MAX712CSE+
2023-11-20T19:12:29 < qyx> np, it is only 9€ in singles
2023-11-20T19:12:38 < qyx> double the price of a basic charger
2023-11-20T19:14:36 < jpa-> some kind of voltage spike on power input would be my first guess
2023-11-20T19:15:32 < jpa-> especially with the C4 between input and DRV pin, if your DC input voltage spikes above 20V it could fry the DRV pin
2023-11-20T19:15:51 < mawk> hmmm
2023-11-20T19:15:58 < mawk> the C4 is minuscule 
2023-11-20T19:16:12 < mawk> it's a 0102 or something 
2023-11-20T19:16:27 < mawk> and I found at least one board where it fell off the board
2023-11-20T19:16:33 < mawk> or someone killed it with a screwdriver 
2023-11-20T19:16:44 < jpa-> what is the nominal voltage you are feeding in?
2023-11-20T19:16:49 < mawk> 19V
2023-11-20T19:16:52 < qyx> haha
2023-11-20T19:17:02 < jpa-> i'd scope it when you plug it in
2023-11-20T19:17:10 < mawk> or 18.5V something like that
2023-11-20T19:17:16 < mawk> from a "medical power supply"
2023-11-20T19:17:28 < jpa-> maybe it is like this globtek 24V supply  http://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/24v_spike.png
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2023-11-20T19:17:50 < mawk> there are a bunch of big electrolytic caps and chokes on the way
2023-11-20T19:18:01 < mawk> ah yeah
2023-11-20T19:18:11 < mawk> why did you say especially with C4
2023-11-20T19:18:18 < mawk> wouldn't the C4 smooth the spike?
2023-11-20T19:18:24 < mawk> I guess not if it's positive spike maybe 
2023-11-20T19:18:33 < jpa-> C4 passes spikes from input directly to DRV pin
2023-11-20T19:18:37 < jpa-> whether positive or negative
2023-11-20T19:18:41 < mawk> right 
2023-11-20T19:18:56 < mawk> the design guys said C4 is essential 
2023-11-20T19:19:01 < mawk> but I don't know why
2023-11-20T19:19:09 < mawk> they don't remember why either 
2023-11-20T19:19:37 < mawk> but on the board where C4 was ripped from the board the charging circuit didn't charge anything 
2023-11-20T19:19:41 < jpa-> it probably is necessary for control loop stability
2023-11-20T19:19:50 < mawk> maybe
2023-11-20T19:20:09 < mawk> with my shitty opamp breadboard circuit I can control the voltage without any cap in sight though 
2023-11-20T19:20:16 < mawk> but I'm not doing constant current or whatever 
2023-11-20T19:21:40 < mawk> I made a small circuit to drive the power transistor connected to DRV from an opamp to set the voltage to 12.5V or so
2023-11-20T19:21:52 < mawk> and it works, so only the IC is dead and nothing around 
2023-11-20T19:22:09 < mawk> the IC is also supposed to output some reference voltages on other pins 
2023-11-20T19:22:23 < mawk> and they're all wrong 
2023-11-20T19:22:29 < mawk> so the whole IC is kaput
2023-11-20T19:22:48 < jpa-> seems weird way to check that the IC is broken, i would have just swapped it to test
2023-11-20T19:23:05 < mawk> I don't have spare ICs, or hot air station 
2023-11-20T19:23:16 < mawk> but I have opamps and breadboards 
2023-11-20T19:23:19 < jpa-> is there any TVS diodes on the supply rail?
2023-11-20T19:23:25 < mawk> from my personal stock, they don't have anything 
2023-11-20T19:23:28 < mawk> yes jpa- 
2023-11-20T19:23:43 < mawk> way before that, right at the input jack
2023-11-20T19:24:07 < mawk> then you have a bunch of stuff on the way like a fuse, fets used as diodes, chokes
2023-11-20T19:24:16 < jpa-> datasheet does mention "If DC IN exceeds 20V, add a cascade connection in series with the DRV pin as shown in Figure 5 to prevent exceeding absolute maximum ratings"
2023-11-20T19:24:29 < mawk> hmmm
2023-11-20T19:25:07 < qyx> if you are operating it at 19 V, you are operating it outside of a reasonable safe area
2023-11-20T19:25:37 < mawk> the input jack is 19V, then you have all that stuff one the way lowering to about 18.5V
2023-11-20T19:26:00 < jpa-> it all depends on how the supply you plug in actually behaves
2023-11-20T19:26:04 < mawk> but yeah that sounds weird, why did the design people do that so close to the maximum 
2023-11-20T19:26:16 < jpa-> make sure to test both plugged to wall first, and plugged to device first
2023-11-20T19:26:20 < mawk> it's supposed to be an expensive "medical power supply" 
2023-11-20T19:26:25 < mawk> yeah
2023-11-20T19:27:11 < qyx> medical power supply is not anything special
2023-11-20T19:27:33 < jpa-> "minimum input voltage requirement is critical, because violating it can inhibit proper termination of the fast-charge cycle"   heh, great design :)
2023-11-20T19:27:35 < qyx> just double the barrier and controlled leakage and maybe a couple of other irrelevant things
2023-11-20T19:27:54 < mawk> that sounds explosive jpa- 
2023-11-20T19:28:20 < jpa-> nah, have to be pretty skilled to blow up a nimh; but it will cook the batteries for sure
2023-11-20T19:29:13 < mawk> there is also a weird fast charge thing, I think for the constant current regime, but looking at our schematic I have no idea how it works
2023-11-20T19:29:21 < jpa-> mawk: how does V+ pin voltage look on the blown chip?
2023-11-20T19:29:24 < mawk> we have a shunt on B- activated when the charger is plugged in
2023-11-20T19:29:44 < mawk> it's wrong jpa- 
2023-11-20T19:29:51 < mawk> all the reference values are
2023-11-20T19:29:57 < mawk> also Vref
2023-11-20T19:30:00 < jpa-> 0V? 19V? something else?
2023-11-20T19:30:10 < mawk> I have to check again tomorrow, I forgot 
2023-11-20T19:30:18 < mawk> but something like 0V or close
2023-11-20T19:30:35 < jpa-> that could indicate broken R1 which would explain everything else not working
2023-11-20T19:30:49 < jpa-> R1 would blow if it is 0603 or smaller
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2023-11-20T19:33:18 < mawk> hmmm
2023-11-20T19:33:29 < mawk> I need to check in the bom or whatever what size it is
2023-11-20T19:33:47 < mawk> we have 1.8kΩ between the adapter and V+
2023-11-20T19:33:54 < mawk> which corresponds to that R1 I guess 
2023-11-20T19:33:58 < jpa-> yeah
2023-11-20T19:35:03 < mawk> V+ takes 20mA max in normal operation 
2023-11-20T19:35:28 < mawk> apparently 
2023-11-20T19:35:32 < jpa-> V+ regulates to 5V, so normally it would sink 8mA in your application, for R1 dissipation of 110mW
2023-11-20T19:36:10 < mawk> ah no 100mA max
2023-11-20T19:36:19 < mawk> absolute maximum rating
2023-11-20T19:37:12 < jpa-> with your 19V supply, no more than 10mA is going to go through that 1.8kohm
2023-11-20T19:37:14 < mawk> V+ isn't an output?
2023-11-20T19:37:19 < mawk> right
2023-11-20T19:37:30 < jpa-> V+ is the power supply input to the chip
2023-11-20T19:37:39 < jpa-> with integrated shunt regulator
2023-11-20T19:38:29 < mawk> ah yes
2023-11-20T19:38:48 < mawk> 1.8kΩ is a bit high then 
2023-11-20T19:39:07 < jpa-> seems reasonable to me
2023-11-20T19:40:23 < mawk> well it limits the current to 10mA
2023-11-20T19:40:28 < mawk> but the ic can draw more apparently 
2023-11-20T19:40:55 < jpa-> "R1 must be small enough to allow at least 5mA of current into the V+ pin"
2023-11-20T19:41:01 < jpa-> you have 8mA
2023-11-20T19:45:56 < mawk> right 
2023-11-20T19:46:21 < mawk> I don't get why the "cascode configuration" in figure 5 fixes the problem of having 20V on DRV
2023-11-20T19:47:11 < mawk> we still have the input voltage minus 0.6V on DRV no?
2023-11-20T19:47:23 < mawk> ah no nevermind 
2023-11-20T19:47:26 < mawk> we have 5V
2023-11-20T19:47:35 < mawk> if V+ is working properly 
2023-11-20T19:48:08 < mawk> yeah well we don't have that, we connect DRV directly to the PNP base
2023-11-20T19:48:37 < mawk> they're going to make a new design change soon, maybe I should tell them to fix that
2023-11-20T19:48:56 < mawk> but ouf thousands of boards we saw the issue maybe 15 times
2023-11-20T19:52:56 < mawk> it talks about figure 19 and a "current limiting diode" but I don't know what a current-limiting diode is and there's no figure 19
2023-11-20T19:53:02 < mawk> it stops at figure 18
2023-11-20T19:57:34 < mawk> they have a LED in series with the resistor supplying R+ in figure 18
2023-11-20T19:57:37 < mawk> it's maybe that
2023-11-20T19:57:41 < mawk> a bit weird
2023-11-20T19:57:59 < mawk> first time seeing a current-limiting LED
2023-11-20T19:58:47 < mawk> so what do I tell the design company JPA, add an extra transistor to limit the voltage DRV sees, or lower the adapter voltage?
2023-11-20T19:59:00 < mawk> lowering the adapter voltage seems very annoying 
2023-11-20T19:59:37 < mawk> we are implicitly using this charger to lower the voltage for us to 13V or so to be further regulated
2023-11-20T20:00:05 < mawk> lowering it before the charger would need a big buck circuit 
2023-11-20T20:00:16 < mawk> it needs 3A peak 
2023-11-20T20:00:49 < mawk> also we use the charger as a regulator even in the absence of batteries, I don't know if that's bad or not
2023-11-20T20:02:50 < jpa-> sure, add the extra transistor
2023-11-20T20:03:06 < jpa-> but that might not be the real problem, you'll have to measure more
2023-11-20T20:03:11 < mawk> right 
2023-11-20T20:03:29 < mawk> well measuring both Vref and V+ they seem to be either floating or zero
2023-11-20T20:03:33 < mawk> I'll try again tomorrow 
2023-11-20T20:03:41 < mawk> and check if the resistors didn't explode
2023-11-20T20:04:02 < mawk> I sent them a sample of broken boards for analysis 
2023-11-20T20:04:23 < mawk> but their analysis is costing €€€€€€/h
2023-11-20T20:05:53 < jpa-> oh yeah, where do i sent the invoice?
2023-11-20T20:08:19 < mawk> lol
2023-11-20T20:08:50 < mawk> they're doing all our peeceebee design
2023-11-20T20:08:52 < mawk> sadly 
2023-11-20T20:09:11 < mawk> I made them hire my ex manager at previous job who knows board design
2023-11-20T20:09:18 < mawk> maybe we can move it back in house
2023-11-20T20:09:23 < mawk> at least for some stuff 
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2023-11-20T20:39:36 < ds2> Do you need high performance charging? NiMH tolerates trickle charging
2023-11-20T20:41:40 < mawk> the charger does both
2023-11-20T20:42:02 < mawk> I don't know, the board needs a lot of current sometimes 
2023-11-20T20:49:05 < qyx> is this mawk's heart implant?
2023-11-20T20:49:23 < mawk> lol
2023-11-20T20:49:35 < mawk> my heart is perfect 
2023-11-20T20:49:43 < mawk> the best heart there ever was
2023-11-20T21:05:53 < qyx> slightly relevant, hows mawk's ukrainian girlfriend?
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2023-11-20T21:10:50 < bitmask> what 32 bit boards do you use when you just need to test something out?
2023-11-20T21:11:48 < ventYl> pi pico :>
2023-11-20T21:11:55 < bitmask> suuuure
2023-11-20T21:13:20 < mawk> in Ukraine qyx
2023-11-20T21:13:21 < mawk> probably 
2023-11-20T21:13:26 < mawk> I think she's still alive
2023-11-20T21:14:59 < ventYl> bitmask: I am a software guy, so as long as the SW runs, I don't mind the silicon used
2023-11-20T21:15:30 < bitmask> I think i'll just order some of those blue pill type f104 and f030 boards
2023-11-20T21:16:39 < bitmask> I guess a pico is somewhat similar in form factor, just seems like a pi is usually overkill for general stuff
2023-11-20T21:22:00 < ventYl> pico is rather primitive piece of silicon. main downside to me is lack of 5V tolerant inputs (doesn't matter if you don't need them but sucks if you do) and really, lik really shitty SDK
2023-11-20T21:24:08 < bitmask> Also if im testing something its generally gonna be put into a new project at some point which will be stm32 based so i might as well start with it
2023-11-20T21:38:27 < ventYl> I know I will only get hate for this opinion, but: target silicon doesn't matter. capabilities of target do.
2023-11-20T21:42:02 < bitmask> to some degree sure, but if I know im going to use a stm32 later for this project anyway, why rewrite code. Im sure I will have to change stuff because I'm not using the same chip but at least it will be in the ballpark
2023-11-20T21:42:25 < bitmask> too bad I dont have anything to use right now
2023-11-20T21:42:38 < bitmask> where did my f4 discovery board go
2023-11-20T21:43:02 < bitmask> I dont even think I have a spare esp
2023-11-20T21:46:05 < bitmask> I soldered 5 of these stm32f030 based ws2812 driver boards until I realized i saved the back of the board wrong and theres no traces on the back :P
2023-11-20T21:50:43 < bitmask> hmm I have something with a n52840
2023-11-20T21:50:46 < bitmask> m4
2023-11-20T21:51:01 < ventYl> apage satanas
2023-11-20T21:51:16 < ventYl> that device has more erratas than its datasheet has pages
2023-11-20T21:56:19 < bitmask> im being stupid anyway, i can just wait a week for shipping
2023-11-20T21:57:35 < bitmask> or 2 days, amazon has a 3 pack of f411 for $17, I was gonna pay $11 for one
2023-11-20T21:58:17 < ventYl> bluepills or sole MCUs? $11/pc sounds like friggin too much for single MCU
2023-11-20T21:59:30 < bitmask> bluepills
2023-11-20T22:01:52 < ventYl> that's good price, probably better than pi pico retail price
2023-11-20T22:02:01 < specing> bitmask: ali has them for $15 ?
2023-11-20T22:02:46 < bitmask> i quoted amazon and ebay, trying to find local
2023-11-20T22:13:35 < PaulFertser> I've recently bought some stlinks for $1.4 a piece. They have apm32f103cbt6 inside.
2023-11-20T22:16:02 < bitmask> im trying to stay away from 103s
2023-11-20T22:16:13 < bitmask> they are cheap as hell but id rather a 411 or 030
2023-11-20T22:17:10 < qyx> bitmask: isn't f411 on mouser for about $5 with next day shipping?
2023-11-20T22:17:38 < bitmask> im talking about bluepill boards
2023-11-20T22:17:57 < bitmask> i want some ready to go boards for testing stuff
2023-11-20T22:21:48 < bitmask> https://www.amazon.com/SongHe-STM32F401-Development-STM32F401CCU6-Learning/dp/B07XBWGF9M/
2023-11-20T22:23:30 < PaulFertser> Right, f1 is shit from the past.
2023-11-20T22:23:46 < PaulFertser> Those are called "blackpills" I guess.
2023-11-20T22:23:55 < bitmask> yea i dont know the diff
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2023-11-20T23:36:07 < zyp> jpa-, so I finally got the current feedback ADCs on the fanuc controller tested the other day, and apart from getting the order of ADCs wrong and that they apparently got inverted polarity, they seem to return reasonable results: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/997226661663752343/1175562651443679332/image.png
2023-11-20T23:37:01 < zyp> that's with a fixed pwm on ch0, and ch1 and 2 low, so I'd expect a positive current on R and negative half on each of S and T
2023-11-20T23:38:06 < zyp> what precautions should I take before I hook this up to the DTC logic?
2023-11-20T23:39:43 < zyp> somebody told me that their fanuc were apparently running ~8 kHz PWM, how careful should I be applying 200 kHz DTC to it?
2023-11-20T23:40:01 < zyp> should I do anything to mitigate it switching too fast, and if so; what?
2023-11-20T23:42:32 < zyp> on the desktop setup I weren't particulary worried, partly because the switches were rated for faster switching than my ADC sample rate and partly because I were running it off a current limited lab supply
2023-11-20T23:42:42 < zyp> neither is true for the actual fanuc controller…
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2023-11-21T01:21:03 < karlp> alright, canable2 aririved, now i have ip link -> can0....
2023-11-21T01:21:08 < karlp> guess I need something to talk to then...
2023-11-21T01:22:11 < ventYl>  * @returns 0. Mostly.
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2023-11-21T07:15:44 < jpa-> zyp: yeah, some kind of switching rate limiter could be in order
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2023-11-21T10:38:10 < zyp> jpa-, how would you do it? minimum time from rising edge to next rising edge?
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2023-11-21T10:40:36 < zyp> on one hand, being asymmetric like that means noise would easily turn it off, and then it'd spend longer to turn on, averaging some value under the setpoint
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2023-11-21T10:41:34 < zyp> on the other hand, a symmetric limiter would keep it from turning off, which sounds like a bad idea overall
2023-11-21T10:50:02 < zyp> so apparently ST invited me to some event: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/90LKH.png
2023-11-21T10:52:51 < zyp> «stm32 tekeunikeol teureining gicho gwajeong» if I'm reading it right
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2023-11-21T11:03:17 < jpa-> i would have a minimum time from change to next change
2023-11-21T11:03:25 < jpa-> per each channel
2023-11-21T11:04:05 < jpa-> hmm
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2023-11-21T11:04:16 < jpa-> depends on inductance though if that is feasible
2023-11-21T11:04:51 < jpa-> because if you have minimum on time, the current can rise quite high
2023-11-21T11:05:12 < zyp> minimum time from change to change sounds useless, either you need to set the time low enough to not matter or high enough to ruin regulation
2023-11-21T11:05:55 < jpa-> depends on inductance and frequency
2023-11-21T11:06:00 < jpa-> but 8kHz is pretty low
2023-11-21T11:06:21 < zyp> I mean, I want to be able to run both the equivalent of 5% duty and 95% duty, but probably not both the 5% pulse time both high and low consequently
2023-11-21T11:08:01 < zyp> or to put it saner: if I set a 125us minimum cycle time, I want to be able to run both 120us low and 5us high and 5us low and 120us high, but not 5us low and 5us high
2023-11-21T11:11:20 < jpa-> yeah
2023-11-21T11:11:57 < kdehl> So, I guess it's not entirely unbiased to ask this in this channel, but would you say stm32 is an industry standard for Cortex-M MCUs?
2023-11-21T11:12:31 < kdehl> I have seen that there are Chinese manufacturers that produce the exact same models with the same module numbers and everything.
2023-11-21T11:12:34 < kdehl> As STM.
2023-11-21T11:12:58 < zyp> I'm not aware of any other microcontrollers being cloned as much as stm32
2023-11-21T11:13:25 < kdehl> Yeah.
2023-11-21T11:14:23 < zyp> I haven't seen any numbers on how much of the market each mcu vendor has, but stm32 certainly got one of the larger chunks
2023-11-21T11:14:35 < kdehl> Yeah, that's what I imagine.
2023-11-21T11:14:41 < kdehl> What are the other larger ones?
2023-11-21T11:15:03 < jpa-> LPCxxxx used to be somewhat popular, but i haven't seen it used much in past 5 years
2023-11-21T11:15:15 < zyp> that's my impression too
2023-11-21T11:15:52 < zyp> in radio stuff, nrf and silabs are both popular
2023-11-21T11:16:02 < PaulFertser> Geehy portfolio actually looks quite comprehensive
2023-11-21T11:16:42 < PaulFertser> Kinetis is strong in industry/automotive
2023-11-21T11:16:56 < kdehl> PaulFertser: But they clone STM32s, don't they?
2023-11-21T11:17:34 < PaulFertser> kdehl: looks like Geehy aim at binary compatibility, yes, but their implementation seems to be independent.
2023-11-21T11:17:43 < kdehl> PaulFertser: I see.
2023-11-21T11:18:14 < PaulFertser> Atmel is quite popular in the indurstry too
2023-11-21T11:18:27 < kdehl> Ah yes. Good ol
2023-11-21T11:18:33 < kdehl> ol' Atmel.
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2023-11-21T11:18:58 < kdehl> Do they also clone STM32 or do they have their own ones?
2023-11-21T11:19:10 < PaulFertser> They do not clone of course
2023-11-21T11:19:18 < kdehl> Heh. I dunno. :)
2023-11-21T11:19:28 < kdehl> https://hackaday.com/2020/10/22/stm32-clones-the-good-the-bad-and-the-ugly/
2023-11-21T11:20:16 < kdehl> Are there Western clones or is it just Chinese?
2023-11-21T11:20:20 < PaulFertser> RP2040 is Cortex-M too
2023-11-21T11:20:30 < kdehl> Right.
2023-11-21T11:21:35 < PaulFertser> If you do "git log -S cortex_m tcl/target" in OpenOCD sources you'll see what parts people recently added, but that's of course biased.
2023-11-21T11:24:21 < PaulFertser> E.g. I'd guess Renesas is really strong in mission critical industry applications but you almost never see it discussed here.
2023-11-21T11:25:12 < kdehl> Right. I just read about some high-end controller by them.
2023-11-21T11:25:33 < kdehl> And then there's GigiaDevice. I actually used one myself for a project.
2023-11-21T11:25:54 < kdehl> Or I was supposed to. Then I replaced it with a genuine STM32, because the GD part was out of stock. Heh.
2023-11-21T11:30:38 < kdehl> Interesting. The article I linked to mentions the model I used, a GF32F1-something. It uses SPI ROM and copies its content to SRAM at boot, in order to use higher clock frequencies, while the genuine STM32 does not.
2023-11-21T11:31:02 < kdehl> Presumably because it doesn't need to due to its slower clock.
2023-11-21T11:34:57 < qyx> stm can run all families from flash directly
2023-11-21T11:35:05 < qyx> incl high end ones
2023-11-21T11:36:43 < zyp> yeah, the high end ones have a wider flash with a cache in front of it
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2023-11-21T12:27:32 < karlp> kdehl: they're not clones, they're all individual arm licensees, they just made parts that have register compatible peripherals in some instances.
2023-11-21T12:28:05 < karlp> st's not being "ripped off by illegal chinese people" or anything.
2023-11-21T12:29:00 < karlp> all kinetis here too. "what's stm32 like? we've never used it!"
2023-11-21T12:29:23 < karlp> (complains about NXP not providing support they desired, so just bought a tiva part instead"
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2023-11-21T12:31:27 < zyp> IMO it's fair to call a microcontroller designed to be compatible to one from another vendor a clone
2023-11-21T12:31:29 < qyx> that's not entirely true, API design is not that small part of the design process
2023-11-21T12:32:13 < qyx> so copying the API you are winning because 1. APi dsign did someone else and is proven to be good, 2. being compatible is a marketing win
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2023-11-21T12:32:40 < qyx> I would definitely call them clones
2023-11-21T12:33:38 < qyx> an alternative definition would be a zero innovation part made to steal market share by being compatible and cheaper
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2023-11-21T13:54:53 < karlp> well, my problem wwith the clone name is that it was used early, and still, to mean "broken inferior copies" that people claimed were made by outright theft and grey manufacturing
2023-11-21T13:54:59 < karlp> which is rather quite different to what the reaility is.
2023-11-21T13:55:26 < karlp> where these companies have comaptible aversions yes, but also very not-compatible versions
2023-11-21T13:55:45 < karlp> and are all proper arm licensees as well, with their own svd files and cmsis packs and all.
2023-11-21T14:08:02 < qyx> still..
2023-11-21T14:08:08 < qyx> soft clones
2023-11-21T14:12:01 < kdehl> Wait, STM32 can be Cortex-A too? I thought they were all Cortex-M.
2023-11-21T14:12:23 < qyx> yes a bit out of concept
2023-11-21T14:13:18 < kdehl> Ah.
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2023-11-21T14:20:57 < kdehl> I guess you don't use the stmcube ide for development for these chips, do you?
2023-11-21T14:21:19 < qyx> you do and it barely works
2023-11-21T14:21:48 < qyx> idk about the ide, but cube MX is pretty unavoidable
2023-11-21T14:21:57 < qyx> eg. for configuring DDR
2023-11-21T14:26:38 < mawk> I do
2023-11-21T14:26:51 < mawk> but they didn't do it correctly 
2023-11-21T14:26:58 < mawk> they wrote code outside the USER CODE tags
2023-11-21T14:27:06 < mawk> so we can't regenerate the project from cubemx
2023-11-21T14:27:11 < mawk> it'd overwrite everything 
2023-11-21T14:27:37 < mawk> the ide itself is just eclipse with nice arm/stm32 plugins it's whatever
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2023-11-21T14:37:59 < kdehl> Hm. Alright.
2023-11-21T14:39:30 < kdehl> I'm thinking of going full retard and making a custom board based on a Cortex-A CPU. As an exercise now that I managed to make a simple STM32 board.
2023-11-21T14:39:47 < kdehl> Apologies if this is the wrong channel for this kind of topic.
2023-11-21T14:40:45 < kdehl> It's just.. those freaking BGAs.. they're quite a hassle to layout and to solder.
2023-11-21T14:40:57 < kdehl> But it'd be a fun experiment.
2023-11-21T14:46:32 < zyp> nah, bga is fine
2023-11-21T14:47:26 < qyx> I recommend you to go the sama5d27 route
2023-11-21T14:47:47 < zyp> the hassle with cortex-a is that unless you pick a SiP or something very lowend, you need to route DDR memory
2023-11-21T14:48:04 < qyx> much better upstream support, ready made openwrt images, no DDR configuration shit, no hardcoded peripherals in the kernel support, no mandatory secure trash
2023-11-21T14:48:17 < zyp> much better than what?
2023-11-21T14:48:28 < qyx> sama5d27 >>> stm32mp1
2023-11-21T14:48:34 < zyp> ah
2023-11-21T14:48:41 < qyx> oh I assumed he is talking about mp1
2023-11-21T14:48:53 < zyp> for mp1, I'd suggest osd32mp1
2023-11-21T14:49:05 < qyx> yes but the rest remains
2023-11-21T14:49:22 < qyx> there is also a MyIR SoM
2023-11-21T14:49:25 < qyx> of a reasonable size
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2023-11-21T14:49:58 < qyx> I did the other osd once with the TI part and it was very funny package
2023-11-21T14:50:24 < zyp> isn't it just a BGA?
2023-11-21T14:50:38 < qyx> but a huge one, about 3 mm tall
2023-11-21T14:50:46 < qyx> it was maybe 40x40 mm or so
2023-11-21T14:50:49 < qyx> ok maybe less
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2023-11-21T14:51:07 < zyp> osd32mp1 is 18x18
2023-11-21T14:51:38 < qyx> 256 Ball BGA (21mm x 21mm)
2023-11-21T14:51:39 < qyx> 16 x 16 grid, 1.27mm Pitch
2023-11-21T14:51:46 < qyx> k I exaggerated a bit
2023-11-21T14:52:32 < zyp> 18x18, 1mm pitch, minus a few gaps
2023-11-21T14:52:55 < zyp> and looking at the pinout, most GPIO are in the outer three rings
2023-11-21T14:53:01 < zyp> so it looks super easy to work with
2023-11-21T14:53:14 < qyx> but still, osd3358 wach much easier than mp1, software wise
2023-11-21T14:53:27 < zyp> could be, I haven't worked with mp1 yet
2023-11-21T14:53:48 < zyp> I'm planning to do a testrack module for mp1 at some point
2023-11-21T14:54:23 < qyx> better prepare for mp2
2023-11-21T14:56:05 < zyp> yeah, mp2 looks a lot more interesting than mp1 ever was
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2023-11-21T15:11:07 < karlp> mp2 still only offering dual core at most, meh
2023-11-21T15:17:11 < mawk> this scope "roll mode" looks pretty nice
2023-11-21T15:17:29 < mawk> now I can look at a large time scale without it being mega choppy
2023-11-21T15:22:58 < mawk> the power supply doesn't spike past 20V when turned on jpa- 
2023-11-21T15:23:08 < mawk> but it might have been a different model
2023-11-21T15:30:11 < kdehl> Sorry, got distracted by work. Stupid work.
2023-11-21T15:30:35 < kdehl> BGA with a 1.27 mm pitch seems doable.
2023-11-21T15:31:14 < kdehl> What kind of RAM do they use if not DDR?
2023-11-21T15:33:04 < kdehl> The osd32mp1 was quite expensive.
2023-11-21T15:34:57 < kdehl> Ah, SRAM.
2023-11-21T15:35:38 < kdehl> Hm. But I kinda want large amounts of RAM though.
2023-11-21T15:36:06 < karlp> some of the smaller parts zyp (may?) have been referring to have embedded dram.
2023-11-21T15:36:31 < karlp> but that can be limited. maybe 64MB 
2023-11-21T15:37:19 < qyx> no osd32mp1 has tons of DRAM
2023-11-21T15:37:31 < qyx> even for sama5d27 there are 2 gbit versions
2023-11-21T15:38:22 < kdehl> qyx: It was like $100, the sama is like $10.
2023-11-21T15:39:15 < kdehl> How much of a hassle is it to connect it to a large SDRAM module though? If that's what you were referring to earlier.
2023-11-21T16:09:21 < karlp> osd shit is pretty special, I was meaning more like some of the f1c200 and the v3s and a few of those others in that category.
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2023-11-21T16:16:57 < kdehl> I just read the datasheet of ATSAMA5D27C and its bootloader. It talks about SDMMC boot, copies stuff to RAM and runs. Does the bootloader in ROM have a filesystem driver to read from a SD card?
2023-11-21T16:18:50 < kdehl> Or does it read raw data from an SD card?
2023-11-21T16:18:57 < kdehl> That seems silly.
2023-11-21T16:21:00 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/h10N4TB.png
2023-11-21T16:21:16 < Ecco> What's the meaning of "ddd" with a half-circle
2023-11-21T16:42:07 < zyp> kdehl, I don't know sama5 in detail, but there's typically multiple loader stages
2023-11-21T16:46:18 < kdehl> zyp: Right. Maybe it just reads MBR or however it works these days.
2023-11-21T16:46:23 < karlp> but yes, just enough fat implementation to read more is common in rom...
2023-11-21T16:46:33 < kdehl> karlp: Ah. Cool.
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2023-11-21T16:47:06 < kdehl> Yeah it is a simple file system, for sure. Even I have written a driver for it a long time ago.
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2023-11-21T16:48:29 < kdehl> Still cool that there is a built-in driver in ROM.
2023-11-21T16:48:43 < PaulFertser> Ecco: "ddd" should be mentioned in the list of other dimensions
2023-11-21T16:48:54 < zyp> kdehl, https://microchipdeveloper.com/xwiki/bin/view/products/mcu-mpu/32bit-mpu/sama5d2-series-boot-process/
2023-11-21T16:50:47 < PaulFertser> Ecco: the symbols are https://www.gdandtbasics.com/gdt-symbols/
2023-11-21T16:51:26 < karlp> the half circle is showing the view through tath segment right?
2023-11-21T16:51:46 < karlp> profile of a surface.. i think that's what I meant?
2023-11-21T16:52:26 < karlp> first vs third always confuses me though.
2023-11-21T16:52:38 < karlp> fortuanately, it ~never matters for me...
2023-11-21T16:53:44 < kdehl> "If at91bootstrap, is found in SD memory card or e.MMC memory, it must follow the second method of valid code detection: boot.bin file check. It must be stored in the root directory of a FAT formatted file system."
2023-11-21T16:54:13 < kdehl> Interestingly enough, they don't talk explicitly about that the at91bootstrap file needs to be on a FAT filesystem.
2023-11-21T16:54:21 < kdehl> zyp: Good article though!
2023-11-21T16:55:08 < zyp> I was looking for that too, I'm not sure if it has to be, or if it can go in first sector or some shit
2023-11-21T16:55:16 < kdehl> Right.
2023-11-21T16:55:40 < zyp> it does talk about booting from NOR flash, where you wouldn't have a file system
2023-11-21T16:56:19 < qyx> I have at91bootstrap in the NOR flash
2023-11-21T16:56:30 < qyx> u-boot too
2023-11-21T16:56:38 < kdehl> qyx: On a FAT filesystem?
2023-11-21T16:56:47 < qyx> no, there is no filesystem in the nor flash
2023-11-21T17:00:38 < kdehl> How did you see at91bootstrap, in a hex dump?
2023-11-21T17:00:58 < qyx> I did not, I simply flashed it and it works
2023-11-21T17:01:13 < kdehl> Aha. Heh.
2023-11-21T17:01:35 < kdehl> So zyp was right. It could be in the first sector or some shit.
2023-11-21T17:01:54 < zyp> yeah, on NOR flash it naturally would be
2023-11-21T17:02:07 < zyp> but I'm not sure on sdmmc
2023-11-21T17:02:23 < qyx> iirc it just loads 16k or so of whatever it finds into sram and runs it
2023-11-21T17:02:38 < qyx> kdehl: download openwrt image and investigate
2023-11-21T17:03:17 < zyp> once you have a block access driver, finding a file on a filesystem isn't that much harder than loading a raw sector, just a matter of following a couple of indirections first
2023-11-21T17:03:52 < kdehl> This is true.
2023-11-21T17:05:50 < kdehl> Well. So. If I understand it correctly, at91bootstrap is just something made up, really. What is actually happening is that the controller reads a bunch of bytes into its internal SRAM or external DRAM and executes it.
2023-11-21T17:06:11 < kdehl> Maybe there is some checksum in there too.
2023-11-21T17:06:29 < kdehl> Not entirely unlike how old BIOS extensions worked back in the day.
2023-11-21T17:06:54 < jpa-> mawk: how about R1?
2023-11-21T17:07:11 < mawk> I forgot what R1 is
2023-11-21T17:07:29 < mawk> the resistor supplying V+ is correct, 1.8k
2023-11-21T17:07:53 < mawk> but V+ has a resistance to ground of 0.8k or something which is not supposed to happen
2023-11-21T17:07:56 < qyx> kdehl: at91bootstrap is a second level bootloader which is able to load u-boot
2023-11-21T17:08:01 < mawk> so something half-shorted somewhere 
2023-11-21T17:08:09 < qyx> rom bootloader can't
2023-11-21T17:08:12 < mawk> either inside the chip, or the cap that's between V+ and GND
2023-11-21T17:08:26 < kdehl> IIRC, the BIOS read 16kb chunks of memory from A0000 to F0000 and did some checksum thingy, and for each correct checksum it started executing the data, assuming there was a ROM chip mapped to it.
2023-11-21T17:10:43 < mawk> ah so R1 is correct jpa- 
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2023-11-21T17:11:12 < mawk> but between V+ and GND I have 0.something k€
2023-11-21T17:11:15 < mawk> kΩ*
2023-11-21T17:11:26 < mawk> and V+ measures at 2.5V, Vref at 100mV
2023-11-21T17:12:02 < mawk> so something like 10mA is going into the chip/into C1
2023-11-21T17:27:30 < mawk> one of my pcbite probes broke
2023-11-21T17:27:33 < mawk> sad
2023-11-21T17:27:52 < mawk> I think I can resolder it, it's the threaded thingie soldered on the probe pcb that fell off
2023-11-21T17:28:30 < mawk> I don't know if it's tinned copper or some kind of steel or whatever, if it's not copper it will be hard to solder
2023-11-21T17:30:08 < jpa-> usually brass or zinc
2023-11-21T17:31:48 < zyp> since it's been soldered to before, shouldn't be an issue soldering to it again
2023-11-21T17:32:13 < mawk> it might have been with exotic flux or exotic solder I don't have
2023-11-21T17:32:26 < mawk> I'll use plumbing flux and leaded solder, the best combo
2023-11-21T17:32:56 < jpa-> i wouldn't expect any problem soldering with just normal stuff
2023-11-21T17:44:36 < mawk> also R1 is a pretty fat boy in our design, it doesn't need to be changed
2023-11-21T17:44:49 < mawk> but we need to buff up C6 if it's necessary for control loop blablabla
2023-11-21T17:44:56 < mawk> it's a 0102 which is easy to break
2023-11-21T17:53:32 < Ecco> PaulFertser: Oh awesome, thank you!
2023-11-21T17:53:38 < Ecco> (sorry for the late reply)
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2023-11-21T19:15:51 < jpa-> haha, i thought i was running out of disk space but turns out there was some ages old snapshot that ubuntu upgrade had created
2023-11-21T19:16:02 < jpa-> https://github.com/CyberShadow/btdu   <-- great tool
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2023-11-21T19:49:55 < srk> neat. I use ncdu mostly but this will be handy when I actually start using btrfs snapshots, if I don't ditch it entirely
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2023-11-21T20:45:59 < qyx> are you two brave warriors using btrfs for actual work?
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2023-11-21T21:21:23 < PaulFertser> Laurence__b: are you sometimes worried about getting dirty working on your train? https://www.elnacional.cat/en/news/spanish-train-conductor-catalonia-rodalies-delay-sex-locomotive_1075824_102.html
2023-11-21T21:27:30 < specing> >an unprecedented, unusual and surprising event happened, which cause the train to leave half an hour late. 
2023-11-21T21:27:59 < specing> good guy conductor saving europe's demographic crisis, one woman at a time
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2023-11-21T21:57:45 < Steffanx> I dont think mr lb can reply to you yet PaulFertser ...
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2023-11-21T22:22:28 < jpa-> qyx: i have used btrfs for all my systems for close to decade now; snapshots are great
2023-11-21T22:31:21 < qyx> I am using snapshots too
2023-11-21T22:31:48 < qyx> but not btrfs, I feel it is still not mature enough
2023-11-21T22:32:56 < qyx> also I cannot learn all the required commands and always google them which is clearly a fault of the btrfs
2023-11-21T22:38:40  * specing same as jpa-
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2023-11-21T22:57:40 < jbo> just use zfs
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2023-11-21T23:01:40 < ventYl> i am comfy with lvm + ext4
2023-11-21T23:03:25 < specing> s/ext4/losing data/
2023-11-21T23:09:32 < qyx> never happened to me
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2023-11-21T23:17:48 < ventYl> in this aspect I am being lucky one. I've been using reiserfs for years on known bad drives and never lost a single bit of data
2023-11-21T23:18:06 < ventYl> while people around me experienced filesystem meltdowns while using reiser
2023-11-21T23:19:05 < BrainDamage> so you're saying it murdered their data
2023-11-21T23:27:54 < ventYl> yes
2023-11-21T23:57:21 < Ecco> I'm looking for a very small piezo buzzer
2023-11-21T23:57:27 < Ecco> SMD
2023-11-21T23:57:38 < Ecco> It's weird because I can't find anything smaller than 9x9mm
2023-11-21T23:57:49 < Ecco> There are small *speakers*, but no piezo
2023-11-21T23:58:05 < Ecco> is there a physical reason piezo buzzers can't be made small?
2023-11-21T23:58:31 < Ecco> ventYl: Wasn't the Reiser guy a convicted felon?
--- Day changed ke marras 22 2023
2023-11-22T00:00:56 < PaulFertser> He's still in prison, yes.
2023-11-22T00:01:38 < Ecco> is he still pushing patches from behind bars?
2023-11-22T00:04:10 < PaulFertser> No, he was never allowed to.
2023-11-22T00:04:48 < ventYl> Ecco: yes, and I've been using reiser some 12+ years ago
2023-11-22T00:10:15 < specing> PaulFertser: no internet access in prison?
2023-11-22T00:20:57 < PaulFertser> specing: I think no prison is allowing seriously working on software like that
2023-11-22T00:21:19 < specing> scandinavia enters the chat
2023-11-22T00:22:06 < specing> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Reiser
2023-11-22T00:22:44 < qyx> I wouldif I was allowed to work on a computer at all
2023-11-22T00:23:23 < qyx> that would be the only reasonable activity to do besides writing poetry
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2023-11-22T00:25:11 < qyx> PaulFertser: whos that girl sentenced to 7 years in a gulag?
2023-11-22T00:25:50 < qyx> I know what she did but idk if she has any activism history
2023-11-22T00:27:30 < PaulFertser> qyx: she wasn't participating in anything like pussy riot or any essential political activity, no.
2023-11-22T00:34:40 < qyx> idk if she manages to overlive the regime
2023-11-22T00:36:43 < PaulFertser> We can hope
2023-11-22T00:37:25 < PaulFertser> You can give more weapons sooner to Ukraine, that's supposed to bring the regime closer to its end...
2023-11-22T00:38:45 < qyx> we have barely anything left
2023-11-22T00:39:40 < PaulFertser> True. Other countries still have many potentially useful things. Like Taurus missile.
2023-11-22T00:40:35 < PaulFertser> I also heard NL was going to supply 60 F-16, that should help a lot too. 
2023-11-22T00:41:40 < qyx> I have mixed feelings, I think that people are already brainwashed including those here and also in Russia
2023-11-22T00:42:22 < qyx> if all the people were united in thinking in that regard, it would help much more than missiles
2023-11-22T00:42:43 < qyx> but I guess that's how hybrid war works
2023-11-22T00:46:16 < PaulFertser> So what about small piezos? Probably they just can not be loud enough to be useful? I know capacitors can buzz but it's high-pitch and too annoying.
2023-11-22T00:47:35 < qyx> re: ecco's question?
2023-11-22T00:47:39 < Ecco> I guess :)
2023-11-22T00:47:45 < qyx> I have only seen thise 9x9 mm or so
2023-11-22T00:47:54 < Ecco> I have no idea. The smallest I've seen ar 7.5x7.5
2023-11-22T00:48:00 < Ecco> but only a couple manufacturers make them
2023-11-22T00:48:04 < Ecco> and they're… *expensive*
2023-11-22T00:48:12 < qyx> there are round buzzers too
2023-11-22T00:48:20 < qyx> but not much smaller
2023-11-22T00:48:23 < Ecco> (namely CUI devices and Mallory Sonalert)
2023-11-22T00:49:34 < qyx> did you browse tme.eu?
2023-11-22T00:49:49 < qyx> I would expect this type of stuff to be in stock there
2023-11-22T00:52:39 < qyx> https://www.sancobuzzer.com/smd-buzzer/57724857.html
2023-11-22T00:52:40 < qyx> lol
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2023-11-22T01:05:31 < Ecco> Did not check tme.eu
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2023-11-22T01:05:42 < Ecco> Yeah, so this one you linked qyx, is actually 5x5 but it's a magnetic spekaer
2023-11-22T01:05:44 < Ecco> not piezzo
2023-11-22T01:05:55 < Ecco> draws 100mA vs more like 1mA for piezzo (IIRC)
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2023-11-22T01:10:30 < Ecco> Also the OG is https://www.cuidevices.com/product/audio/buzzers/audio-transducers/cmt-322-65-smt-tr
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2023-11-22T08:02:02 < jpa-> Ecco: there is 7.5x7.5 but it is already horribly high 6kHz  https://www.digikey.fi/en/products/detail/mallory-sonalert-products-inc/AST0760MCTRQ/11567566
2023-11-22T08:03:07 < jpa-> piezo buzzers rely on mechanical resonance to achieve their low power usage, but the smaller the disc the higher the resonant frequency
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2023-11-22T11:07:29 < qyx> couldn't you glue the "standard china buzzer disc" to the bottom of the PCB?
2023-11-22T11:07:36 < qyx> the 25 mm one or so
2023-11-22T11:07:52 < qyx> it is super thin, you could even use no wires and just do bigger vias
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2023-11-22T12:39:35 < jbo> moin
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2023-11-22T13:55:19 < karlp> gmorning
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2023-11-22T15:13:26 < Steffanx> Gooday
2023-11-22T15:13:57 < qyx> how's SO2 karlp 
2023-11-22T15:23:13 < jbo> good nippy!
2023-11-22T16:03:09 < Ecco> Hi guys :)
2023-11-22T16:03:16 < jbo> Hello guy
2023-11-22T16:03:20 < Ecco> hahah
2023-11-22T16:03:26 < Ecco> So, dumb question time: what's your go-to flux?
2023-11-22T16:03:50 < jbo> depends on what I am doing
2023-11-22T16:04:10 < jbo> for just dicking around I use ChipQuik SMT125 or something
2023-11-22T16:04:13 < jbo> let me check the number for you
2023-11-22T16:04:24 < Ecco> I'm currently using a tube of ChipQuick NC191
2023-11-22T16:04:49 < Ecco> I had no idea that ChipQuik was a "known" brand, I don't even remember where I bought it from. I thought it was a chinese knockoff
2023-11-22T16:05:11 < jbo> SMD291-10M
2023-11-22T16:05:30 < jbo> wat
2023-11-22T16:05:37 < jbo> isn't ChipQuik US company?
2023-11-22T16:05:47 < jbo> I have been using their stuff for forever
2023-11-22T16:05:47 < Ecco> oh it might very well be, I just did not know
2023-11-22T16:06:36 < Ecco> Yeah, you're right, it's a US thing. Had no idea.
2023-11-22T16:07:15 < Ecco> Anyway, the NC191 I got works well, but 1/ Has a very strong smell (not unpleasant, but very strong) 2/ Is *really* hard to clean
2023-11-22T16:07:58 < qyx> no-clean Alpha OM-338 here
2023-11-22T16:08:43 < Ecco> https://www.chipquik.com/store/index.php?cPath=300_330&osCsid=fv5vhsdhhrk3tmo16gthjrbte6 -> THey have so many options…
2023-11-22T16:09:06 < Ecco> qyx; Alpha OM-338 shows up as solder paste when I Google it
2023-11-22T16:09:34 < jbo> I have four different fluxes that I use regularly. mostly the ChipQuick SMT291
2023-11-22T16:10:02 < qyx> Ecco: it is a family of products, OM-338 is available as a flux gel too
2023-11-22T16:10:07 < qyx> without the solder
2023-11-22T16:10:31 < jbo> Ecco, the reason I mostly use SMD291 over NC191 is shelf life
2023-11-22T16:10:38 < jbo> SMD291 is extremely stable
2023-11-22T16:11:18 < jbo> but I might very well be the only guy around here caring about that sort of thing.
2023-11-22T16:11:25 < jbo> I now people using 10 years old flux
2023-11-22T16:11:42 < qyx> how much of it do you use?
2023-11-22T16:11:53 < qyx> I am buying a new syringe every 2-3 months
2023-11-22T16:12:39 < jbo> size matters qyx, didn't you know?
2023-11-22T16:13:14 < qyx> I am not going to stock 2 kilo
2023-11-22T16:13:47 < jbo> but what are you gonna do when the russians come and mouser/digikey doesn't anymore?
2023-11-22T16:13:57 < jbo> gotta have some war time flux reserves
2023-11-22T16:14:01 < qyx> I'll hide under a rock
2023-11-22T16:14:53 < jbo> I am no historian but I think that didn't work well for most of russia's neighbours in the past
2023-11-22T16:15:30 < jbo> anyway, enough horsing
2023-11-22T16:15:37 < jbo> Ecco, why are you asking? anything wrong with your flux?
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2023-11-22T16:57:44 < Ecco> jbo: Well, it's really hard to clean and has a very strong smell. So I'm tempted to try something else to see if it's any better :)
2023-11-22T17:13:10 < Ecco> I have a USB hub
2023-11-22T17:13:21 < Ecco> that I *think* I fired by plugging a poorly soldered board in
2023-11-22T17:13:51 < Ecco> Do you guys have any idea about how I could try and fix it? Glancing at the PCB doesn't show any part that's obviously burnt
2023-11-22T17:23:17 < PaulFertser> Ecco: does it still have power on that port? Do you see any software events when you plug anything in?
2023-11-22T17:23:30 < PaulFertser> What about the other ports?
2023-11-22T17:23:43 < PaulFertser> Are ports themselves seen by software?
2023-11-22T17:24:54 < Ecco> PaulFertser: So the power seems to be OK
2023-11-22T17:25:01 < Ecco> The hub has a blue led that turns on
2023-11-22T17:25:08 < Ecco> and I think the hub still provides devices with VBUs
2023-11-22T17:25:11 < Ecco> (let me check this)
2023-11-22T17:25:41 < Ecco> I do not get any USB event on the PC side of things tho, not when I plug the hub in neither when I plug a device into the hub
2023-11-22T17:26:37 < Ecco> Yes, devices plugged into the hub still receive +5V on vbus
2023-11-22T17:27:08 < Ecco> a USB hub should be enumerated on its own, right?
2023-11-22T17:31:29 < zyp> yes
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2023-11-22T17:35:26 < Ecco> LOL
2023-11-22T17:35:30 < Ecco> I'm inspecting the PCB
2023-11-22T17:35:42 < Ecco> and the hub "chip" has been so poorly soldered that there are obvious shorts
2023-11-22T17:36:40 < Ecco> I wonder how it worked in the first place
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2023-11-22T17:40:26 < bitmask> I cant seem to program this chip, my stlink v2 clone is saying no device found
2023-11-22T17:40:55 < karlp> sudo or connect under reset?
2023-11-22T17:41:02 < karlp> also, tinyusb example build fails: https://github.com/hathach/tinyusb.git
2023-11-22T17:41:06 < karlp> not taht arm-none-eabi/bin/ld: section .ARM.exidx LMA [00002d14,00002d1b] overlaps section .data LMA [00002d14,00004d2f]
2023-11-22T17:41:08 < karlp> nice one...
2023-11-22T17:41:20 < bitmask> default was set to connect under reset
2023-11-22T17:43:24 < PaulFertser> bitmask: please show the log
2023-11-22T17:43:33 < PaulFertser> (assuming you're using OpenOCD)
2023-11-22T17:44:45 < bitmask> i was mainly trying gdb server since it was the default (using stm32cubeide) but I did try openocd too without luck
2023-11-22T17:45:27 < PaulFertser> What host OS are you using?
2023-11-22T17:46:13 < bitmask> os x :)
2023-11-22T17:46:20 < bitmask> i was going to try windows later
2023-11-22T17:48:43 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/poe_problems.png   meh, why
2023-11-22T17:50:47 < zyp> both devices are identical, whichever you plug first always work, whichever you plug second always fails until first is disconnected?
2023-11-22T17:50:56 < jpa-> yes
2023-11-22T17:51:09 < jpa-> also both are isolated, ethernet cable is the only cable i have connected
2023-11-22T17:52:42 < jpa-> Rclass 150 ohm is for 4W, switch says to support up to 65W - and the PoE Max led on the switch stays off
2023-11-22T17:54:34 < jpa-> it's as if something is leaking power into the lines and messing with negotiation, but seems like that would have to be inside the switch and not on my device
2023-11-22T17:54:44 < zyp> the «floor» in the right half of the second and left half of the third screenshot looks suspicious
2023-11-22T17:54:47 < zyp> yeah, exactly
2023-11-22T17:55:40 < zyp> ports on the switch doesn't matter?
2023-11-22T17:56:14 < PaulFertser> bitmask: on osx stlink should just work with openocd. Can you show -d3 log please?
2023-11-22T17:57:29 < jpa-> ports don't seem to matter other than if i power up the switch, it is always the lowest numbered port that works (i guess it's the order it does negotiation)
2023-11-22T17:58:00 < zyp> makes sense
2023-11-22T17:58:27 < zyp> do you have other devices with other Rclass values?
2023-11-22T17:59:22 < jpa-> no, unfortunately i don't think i have any known-good PoE devices
2023-11-22T18:04:28 < jpa-> hmm, but if i just put 27 kohm resistor to RJ45 cable end, i can trigger the switch to start negotiation - and that works even if there is a device already connected, and doesn't have that weird floor
2023-11-22T18:04:45 < zyp> how does it look on the scope?
2023-11-22T18:05:45 < jpa-> with the resistor? it looks like the topmost image, working condition (except that after turning on the +48V it soon detects that minimum load is missing and turns back off)
2023-11-22T18:06:03 < zyp> entirely identical?
2023-11-22T18:06:26 < jpa-> i'll try to get a screenshot, just a moment..
2023-11-22T18:09:01 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/poe_27k_resistor.png   that's with another device powered ok on port 1 and scope trace of resistor connected to port 2
2023-11-22T18:09:33 < Ecco> That USB hub has an onboard DC-DC converter
2023-11-22T18:09:41 < Ecco> https://datasheet.lcsc.com/lcsc/1808311539_Fitipower-Integrated-Tech-FP6381AS5CTR_C148091.pdf
2023-11-22T18:09:44 < jpa-> the ripple at the start is me fumbling with the differential probe
2023-11-22T18:09:50 < Ecco> Measuring Vin gives 4.9V, which I expected
2023-11-22T18:10:00 < Ecco> but vout seems to be 1.2V. That's weird, isn't it?
2023-11-22T18:11:07 < jpa-> Ecco: what Vout is it configured for?
2023-11-22T18:11:18 < Ecco> I don't know
2023-11-22T18:11:26 < jpa-> measure the feedback resistors
2023-11-22T18:11:26 < Ecco> I'm reading the main IC's datasheet
2023-11-22T18:11:32 < Ecco> file:///Users/romain/Downloads/RTS5411_REALTEK.pdf
2023-11-22T18:11:33 < Ecco> Crap
2023-11-22T18:11:41 < Ecco> https://file.elecfans.com/web1/M00/9A/9F/pIYBAF0fDAyAX67hABFnUIbn0no015.pdf?filename=RTS5411_REALTEK.pdf
2023-11-22T18:11:50 < Ecco> And the chip expected 1.2V in
2023-11-22T18:12:15 < qyx> so everything is fine then?
2023-11-22T18:12:16 < Ecco> (a bunch of pins are labeled "1.2V power supply for digital circuits")
2023-11-22T18:12:18 < Ecco> Indeed
2023-11-22T18:12:23 < Ecco> I mnea, that part is fine :)
2023-11-22T18:12:31 < Ecco> I just expected the whole IC to run at 3.3V
2023-11-22T18:12:58 < Ecco> It also expects 3.3V on other pins
2023-11-22T18:13:12 < Ecco> there's another SOT-23-5 parts
2023-11-22T18:13:16 < Ecco> let's check if it's indeed a 3.3V LDO
2023-11-22T18:15:34 < jpa-> hmm, the weird floor appears to be my input cap charging up - but LM5071 is supposed to keep it isolated until negotiation is done
2023-11-22T18:16:44 < zyp> how big is the cap?
2023-11-22T18:17:35 < zyp> maybe you need a larger cap so it'll be less affected by leakage
2023-11-22T18:18:19 < Ecco> So the other IC is not a DC-DC but a "Current-limited, power distribution switch" https://datasheetspdf.com/pdf-file/720084/uPISemiconductor/UP7534/1
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2023-11-22T18:20:19 < jpa-> putting 100 ohm resistor in parallel with the input cap makes negotiation work..
2023-11-22T18:22:30 < jpa-> 10 kohm works too..
2023-11-22T18:22:59 < karlp> ship it....
2023-11-22T18:24:59 < karlp> holy shit ti are out of their goddamn minds.
2023-11-22T18:25:14 < karlp> msp432e4 or tm4c129? make up your damn minds you lunatics
2023-11-22T18:25:37 < zyp> didn't the tm4c name get retired year ago?
2023-11-22T18:26:24 < jpa-> looks to be about 100µA of leakage current coming from somewhere
2023-11-22T18:27:02 < jpa-> .. and the LM5071 datasheet specifies Ileak 100µA max
2023-11-22T18:27:25 < jpa-> so yeah, probably easiest to just add a resistor to avoid it building up
2023-11-22T18:28:28 < jpa-> though even 10kohm at 48V dissipates quite a lot of power :F
2023-11-22T18:28:49 < karlp> zyp: they can't make up their minds again: https://www.ti.com/microcontrollers-mcus-processors/arm-based-microcontrollers/arm-cortex-m4-mcus/products.html#62=120%3B120&
2023-11-22T18:29:07 < karlp> m4's are only listed up front as tm4c, but there's two particular msp432e4 variants still available
2023-11-22T18:29:17 < karlp> and apparently msp432_p_ was different altogether
2023-11-22T18:31:00 < PaulFertser> Just you wait they might remember Stellaris naming soon and add it to the mix.
2023-11-22T18:31:45 < zyp> hmm, I thought it went tm4c -> msp432, not the other way around
2023-11-22T18:32:50 < jpa-> i wonder why this leakage issue only happens if another device is already connected
2023-11-22T18:33:06 < zyp> jpa-, better put a little buck in front of the resistor so you get a constant power load :)
2023-11-22T18:34:26 < zyp> maybe because the switch itself loads the power lines a bit more if there's no ports enabled
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2023-11-22T18:36:32 < jpa-> uh.. unshielded CAT5 works
2023-11-22T18:37:06 < jpa-> but I have the RJ45 connector shield connected to chassis GND, which is on the other side of isolated flyback
2023-11-22T18:37:40 < jpa-> ... but i have a 100 kohm resistor between the isolated sides because i didn't want any stray potential to build up
2023-11-22T18:39:16 < jpa-> yeah, removing that 100 kohm makes it work
2023-11-22T18:40:49 < jpa-> so, what happened is:   first device finishes PoE negotiation, LM5071 connects input side VEE; that has 100 kohm to isolated GND; that is connected to RJ45 shield; that goes through the switch to other board, to its GND, through 100 kohm to input side VEE, charges cap; LM5071 internal FET parasitic diode passes that through to mess up the negotiation
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2023-11-22T18:47:36 < jpa-> changing the series resistor to 1Mohm is simple fix, but I wonder what I really should do about the RJ45 shield
2023-11-22T18:48:08 < jpa-> i could couple it with a capacitor, but on the other hand it makes sense for a metal shell connector to be connected to chassis ground
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2023-11-22T19:59:10 < qyx> so don't connect it to the primary at all?
2023-11-22T20:00:20 < qyx> the shield is generally exposed, chassis ground to
2023-11-22T20:00:35 < qyx> and is connected to PE at the patch panel side
2023-11-22T20:00:45 < qyx> switches also have shield connected to PE, don't they?
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2023-11-22T20:07:05 < qyx> so if ethernet goes to a device wig chassis ground, I would expect shield to be tied to the chassis ground and chassis ground to system ground by some means (cap+resistor?)
2023-11-22T20:07:34 < qyx> and primary of the smps to datalines
2023-11-22T20:08:11 < qyx> the thing not fitting into the concept is why non-PoE termination goes to the chassis ground through a cap
2023-11-22T20:10:30 < qyx> looks a bit retarded to me probably because the lack of proper theory exactly like he SD card holder recently which had CD switch connected tomchassis ground
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2023-11-22T20:27:15 < bitmask> ok fuck this board, im just gonna order a nucleo, i didnt realize they were so cheap
2023-11-22T20:27:21 < bitmask> what a waste of time
2023-11-22T20:28:11 < bitmask> I should probably get a legit stlink while im at it
2023-11-22T20:31:31 < PaulFertser> bitmask: stlink v3 can only work with ST targets
2023-11-22T20:32:04 < PaulFertser> bitmask: did I miss your OpenOCD log? I'd tell if it's a problem of communicating with stlink itself or between stlink and the target.
2023-11-22T20:32:08 < bitmask> i was prob just gonna get a v2 but yea I assumed it was only st anyway
2023-11-22T20:33:00 < bitmask> oh I didnt paste it, actually my vmware crashed so the log is still open, i took a screenshot, one sec (its the same on mac)
2023-11-22T20:33:19 < PaulFertser> bitmask: v2 works with other Cortex-M devices too, that's my point.
2023-11-22T20:34:10 < bitmask> https://i.imgur.com/SfMrZxO.png
2023-11-22T20:34:23 < bitmask> PaulFertser i didnt realize that, good to know
2023-11-22T20:35:10 < PaulFertser> bitmask: that certainly means SWD with the target not working. Either wiring issue or the target disabled SWD. You can try pulling reset line down manually (button/tweezers whatever) to be sure.
2023-11-22T20:36:03 < bitmask> ive tried messing with reset, whatever this XO button is, and boot0 in every way i could imagine
2023-11-22T20:36:21 < bitmask> boot0 is pulled low according to the schematic
2023-11-22T20:36:37 < PaulFertser> bitmask: with boot0 set to use the bootloader it's guaranteed to have SWD enabled.
2023-11-22T20:36:56 < bitmask> to use the bootloader means pulled high right?
2023-11-22T20:36:59 < PaulFertser> bitmask: so might be some issue with the target not being powered at all. Or SWD wires mixed or GND missing or something.
2023-11-22T20:37:20 < PaulFertser> bitmask: it doesn't matter if you start OpenOCD while pulling RESET low.
2023-11-22T20:37:24 < bitmask> i guess i'll have to go at it with a multimeter later
2023-11-22T20:37:53 < PaulFertser> (I do not remember which is which for boot0; but if you never flashed the target then it's empty and SWD should work regardless)
2023-11-22T20:38:45 < bitmask> well its a black pill type board, not sure if they flashed anything to test it or not, prob not
2023-11-22T20:39:17 < bitmask> its this crap: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0B63PFG67
2023-11-22T20:39:17 < PaulFertser> bitmask: it should have a reset button then
2023-11-22T20:39:21 < bitmask> it does
2023-11-22T20:39:51 < PaulFertser> bitmask: so is the log output the same when you start OpenOCD while having it depressed?
2023-11-22T20:40:12 < bitmask> yes
2023-11-22T20:40:37 < PaulFertser> bitmask: do you have it connected to USB while doing it?
2023-11-22T20:40:49 < bitmask> no
2023-11-22T20:40:57 < bitmask> powered with the 3.3v from the stlink
2023-11-22T20:41:12 < PaulFertser> And is there a LED confirming it?
2023-11-22T20:41:17 < bitmask> yea
2023-11-22T20:41:27 < bitmask> theres two leds that light up
2023-11-22T20:41:44 < PaulFertser> BTW, since it's F4 it should have USB DFU bootloader working so you should see DFU device if you plug it in with appropriate BOOT0 setting.
2023-11-22T20:41:44 < bitmask> 1 if i have boot0 high
2023-11-22T20:41:57 < PaulFertser> So you should be able to reflash with dfu-util via that.
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2023-11-22T20:42:23 < bitmask> i'll try, theres one comment on the amazon page that says dfu doesnt work
2023-11-22T20:42:30 < bitmask> so i didnt even bother checking
2023-11-22T20:43:08 < PaulFertser> wtf, who would make an F4 board with USB but without DFU working...
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2023-11-22T20:44:07 < bitmask> maybe the commenter was just dumb, or this board is just completely fucked, but i'll try later
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2023-11-22T20:55:43 < bitmask> ok the commenter is an idiot, i got dfu
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2023-11-22T20:56:10 < bitmask> pull boot0 high and then hold the KO button, press reset, release reset, release ko and dfu mode 
2023-11-22T20:56:40 < bitmask> or maybe that sequence wasnt necessary and i just had to press one of the buttons
2023-11-22T20:56:42 < bitmask> either way
2023-11-22T21:05:10 < PaulFertser> bitmask: while holding KO either plug it in or if it's already plugged press reset.
2023-11-22T21:05:27 < PaulFertser> (and release reset)
2023-11-22T21:05:32 < bitmask> yea
2023-11-22T21:05:45 < PaulFertser> But SWD should work too in that state.
2023-11-22T21:06:52 < bitmask> dunno
2023-11-22T21:08:22 < PaulFertser> I would not connect 3.3 V to stlink and instead would power from USB. GND should be connected of course. And if you see DFU device on computer at the same time stlink should be able to connect.
2023-11-22T21:08:49 < PaulFertser> Or SWD labels are wrong.
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2023-11-22T22:48:43 < bitmask> i'll give it a shot later, it would be nice to know why it wasnt working, gotta make some money now though
2023-11-22T22:49:18 < bitmask> also if anyone knows how to connect transformer laminations together that wont cause overheating, please let me know
2023-11-22T22:50:24 < bitmask> is transformer varnish an adhesive?
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--- Day changed to marras 23 2023
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2023-11-23T00:22:45 < jbo> zyp you around mr motor guy?
2023-11-23T00:24:59 < zyp> yup
2023-11-23T00:26:57 < jbo> I'm currently looking at / dealing with TMC4671 which is an integrated servo controller suitable for BLDC motors. right now I have a motor with two pole pairs. However, I might need to use the same chip in a setup with more pole pairs. the datasheet suggests that this is generally no problem because you can set the number of pole-pairs in a register. However, I fail to see whether there is some sort of a maximum on that.
2023-11-23T00:27:35 < jbo> if I recall correctly, you can have as many pole-pairs on the motors as you like. the only thing that changes is that you do multiple/more electrical rotations than mechanical ones, is that correct?
2023-11-23T00:27:43 < zyp> correct
2023-11-23T00:27:45 < jbo> i.e. can I hook up a motor with 25 pole-pairs to this chip?
2023-11-23T00:28:36 < zyp> hmm, there's encoder feedback
2023-11-23T00:28:47 < zyp> that'd play into it
2023-11-23T00:29:40 < zyp> since commutation depends on encoder counts per electrical rotation, not per mechanical rotation
2023-11-23T00:30:27 < jbo> hmm
2023-11-23T00:31:16 < zyp> N_POLE_PAIRS is a 16-bit field, so you can have 65535 or so :)
2023-11-23T00:32:03 < jbo> yeah, I figured that. I just wanted to make sure that there is not some obvious motor knowledge that everybody knows except for me
2023-11-23T00:32:29 < jbo> I'm right now trying to figure out whether the comutation/encoder issue you mentioned is handled by this chip too.
2023-11-23T00:33:25 < zyp> what issue?
2023-11-23T00:33:51 < jbo> the thing where you just went:  "hmm [...] that'd play into it"
2023-11-23T00:34:48 < zyp> that's why it cares about pole pairs at all, I figure
2023-11-23T00:35:20 < jbo> so you see no reason why this thing couldn't handle a motor with 50 poles/pole-pairs?
2023-11-23T00:35:28 < zyp> 4.3.2 talks about it
2023-11-23T00:35:29 < zyp> Different encoders give different kinds of position angles. Digital Hall sensors normally give the electrical
2023-11-23T00:35:32 < zyp> position PHI_E that can be used for commutation. Analog encoders give - depending on their resolution -
2023-11-23T00:35:35 < zyp> angles that have to be scaled first to mechanical angles PHI_M and to electrical angles PHI_E for commutation.
2023-11-23T00:36:09 < jbo> yeah I read that before bothering you :)
2023-11-23T00:36:36 < zyp> so what sort of weird motor do you have in mind for this?
2023-11-23T00:37:26 < jbo> awww I wrote down the motor part number on a sheet of paper that is still at the office - can tell you tomorrow. but it's just an open-frame bldc
2023-11-23T00:37:59 < jbo> zyp, I seem to remember that for high speed (eg. 2k RPM) velocity control  you  typically want low number of pole pairs, whereas you'd want more pole-pairs for higher torque / positioning stuff. is that correct?
2023-11-23T00:38:44 < jbo> I guess my question can be generalized as: "how do different number of pole-pairs in a BLDC motor affect it's characteristics"
2023-11-23T00:39:18 < zyp> that's how I understand it too
2023-11-23T00:51:18 < jbo> alright, thank you!
2023-11-23T01:01:09 < karlp> huh I missed "azure rtos" going fully MIT.
2023-11-23T01:01:33 < karlp> it already went semi open when ms bought it and rebranded it "azure rtos" right? what's actually new today?
2023-11-23T01:04:34 < jbo> zyp, I'm trying to figure out what the max RPM is this TMC4671 can handle
2023-11-23T01:06:35 < karlp> thanks bitmask: https://github.com/karlp/zypsnips/commit/5c4df0dbaaf9e3efb3781ec552b92450cf3e5a8f :)
2023-11-23T01:06:50 < karlp> also, thanks for remindingme of your previous entry to that file ;)
2023-11-23T01:07:29 < bitmask> haha
2023-11-23T01:07:44 < bitmask> well i got the board working so now im probably not gonna buy those
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2023-11-23T01:16:22 < karlp> huh, ok, so previously, ST, MCHP, NXP (only certain families) and Renesas (certain families) had a "free" license to all of threadx, (including their extra shit like usb and net and files and trace)
2023-11-23T01:16:25 < karlp> https://github.com/azure-rtos/threadx/blob/master/LICENSED-HARDWARE.txt
2023-11-23T01:18:35 < karlp> lol, "”A vendor-neutral Open Source RTOS certified for safety-critical applications and published under a permissive license is an industry game changer and we are excited to help grow the community for ThreadX.” "
2023-11-23T01:18:53 < karlp> donated by a single company, previously entirely single vendor  as well.
2023-11-23T01:19:46 < karlp> hrm, tracex might be interesting...
2023-11-23T01:20:53 < karlp> ~wat: https://threadx.io/ is all fluff, but then the footer is some eclipse? generic include, "join us for a jakarta EE conference on blah date!"
2023-11-23T01:21:00 < karlp> fucking java can't stop 
2023-11-23T01:21:48 < karlp> jbo: guix is goign to be MIT! are you afraid?
2023-11-23T01:25:25 < karlp> whee, "The source code for USBX is delivered in ASCII format and requires approximately 500 KBytes of space on the host computer's hard disk."
2023-11-23T01:28:33 < karlp> lol, their githubis awesome.  every couple of months, someone with access comits a "updates" commit, and lists a whole slew of internal commit ids from some other system :) https://github.com/azure-rtos/usbx/commits/master
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2023-11-23T01:38:13 < karlp> also, here's a codestyle I never knew I hated before :)  "if (some_ptr -> some_member) { // blah
2023-11-23T01:38:21 < karlp> who puts spaces there?!
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2023-11-23T01:39:50 < karlp> "Returning to the original ThreadX name" this just feels like Ti insanity all over again :)
2023-11-23T01:40:00 < zyp> maybe that's where Laurenceb's spaces went
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2023-11-23T01:41:38 < karlp> well, night's over again.  did somethign I was meant to do, didn't do what I wanted to do, learnt somethings, crossed off some things.  guess that's an ok day...
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2023-11-23T01:48:57 < karlp> qyx: seen this shit? https://www.eenewseurope.com/en/32-bit-rx-mcu-with-high-speed-precision-afe/  125ksps 24bit SDADC, 16bit dac, _and_ +-10V safe analog inputs!
2023-11-23T01:49:09 < karlp> you only get a 32MHz cpu, but.. kinda cute
2023-11-23T01:49:31 < karlp> oh it's a fucking custom core.
2023-11-23T01:49:33 < karlp> the fuck
2023-11-23T01:49:49 < karlp> psychos, I thought renesas had gone all cortex-m already
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2023-11-23T08:42:24 < qyx> night is over again d I did nothing of that, I slept the whole time
2023-11-23T08:49:18 < qyx> karlp: idk if onchip sdadc can be that precise
2023-11-23T08:49:35 < qyx> I would expect some noise
2023-11-23T08:53:11 < jpa-> as long as you don't go blinking any LEDs ;)
2023-11-23T08:54:03 < qyx> hm RMS noise of 180 uV at 1 kSPS is nt that bad
2023-11-23T08:54:17 < qyx> sorry 0.18 uV
2023-11-23T08:54:44 < qyx> I am getting 0.007 uV at 1 SPS with microchip cheap ADCs
2023-11-23T08:56:28 < qyx> but mine is the overall system noise incl. preamps
2023-11-23T08:58:33 < qyx> this is interesting too https://www.eenewseurope.com/en/long-range-wireless-mcus-for-energy-efficient-connectivity/
2023-11-23T08:59:07 < qyx> but idk why none of lora or that BLE long range thingy is not supported
2023-11-23T08:59:22 < qyx> DSSS is supported on the other hand
2023-11-23T08:59:38 < qyx> but what even uses that besides zigbee, and in 433 and 868 bands
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2023-11-23T12:10:57 < qyx> lunices, ps aux shows 21% usage of a process, top shows 0%
2023-11-23T12:11:00 < qyx> how is that possible
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2023-11-23T12:32:01 < jpa-> does there exist USB hub IC that doesn't need crystal?
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2023-11-23T12:46:53 < Streaker> HS8863A. shitty China USB hub. no crystal.
2023-11-23T13:02:47 < jpa-> i think i have been on the user side of one of those
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2023-11-23T13:28:27 < karlp> there's a couple of china ones that say they don't, but then have notes that "well, really we recommend it" though..
2023-11-23T13:32:54 < karlp> Streaker: where does one even get that part? it's not on lcsc, and fuck sourcing from some aliexpress link.
2023-11-23T13:33:29 < karlp> https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=113354.0 links to an ali store, that doesn't exist, and it's unfindable again now?
2023-11-23T13:36:57 < jpa-> i guess there isn't much market for USB-FS hubs anymore, and USB-HS on intosc is not good
2023-11-23T13:42:09 < karlp> was that HS8863A a FS only hub?
2023-11-23T13:42:13 < karlp> gtfo with that shit
2023-11-23T13:42:28 < karlp> qyx: which mchp adcs are you using?
2023-11-23T13:43:39 < qyx> mcp3561/2/4
2023-11-23T13:49:42 < karlp> pre-amps? these guys are just feeding screw terminals -> single order RC -> feed through cap?! -> straight into cs5532 or ads1262, and then whole thing under cans.
2023-11-23T13:49:50 < karlp> it feels very overkill. 
2023-11-23T13:50:05 < karlp> but I want to start with working on the software and digital before I try and get into the analog.
2023-11-23T13:50:38 < qyx> my AFE is much more complex
2023-11-23T13:52:08 < karlp> MCP356x looks nice though
2023-11-23T13:52:34  * karlp files that for later, musn't get distracted...
2023-11-23T13:53:52 < qyx> is is probably the cheapest differential 24 bit SDADC available
2023-11-23T13:54:05 < qyx> and was the only >16 bit SDADC available during the shortage
2023-11-23T13:54:24 < karlp> it's still way cheaper and in way better supply than these other options
2023-11-23T13:55:07 < qyx> I wanted to use ads124s08 first
2023-11-23T13:55:10 < karlp> huh, Qi charging at 70W...
2023-11-23T13:56:48 < qyx> led.cpp:40:45: warning: suggest parentheses around '&&' within '||' [-Wparentheses]
2023-11-23T13:56:51 < qyx> what
2023-11-23T13:57:43 < qyx> && has priority over ||, what's wrong
2023-11-23T14:01:39 < karlp> not everyone knows that?
2023-11-23T14:02:14 < karlp> it's like when you do if (thing = function()) and it says "suggest parentheses" to make things clear
2023-11-23T14:02:50 < qyx> I don't do ifs with side effects, but yeah
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2023-11-23T14:13:50 < karlp> fucking tivaware is both export controlled, and ships as a .exe
2023-11-23T14:13:54 < karlp> having a timecop moment
2023-11-23T14:15:08 < qyx> lold
2023-11-23T14:17:04  * qyx doing soft pwm at 64 Hz
2023-11-23T14:17:19 < qyx> 62.5 actually
2023-11-23T14:17:44 < qyx> not that bad actually
2023-11-23T14:18:25 < karlp> holyshit, I can't remember the password I put on this fuckign windows machine
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2023-11-23T15:00:22 < kdehl> Hm. I noticed something confusing. When I enable SPI2 in IOC for an STM32F446RET6, pin 9 (PC1) is set as SPI2_MOSI. But according to the datasheet, pin 11 (PC3) or pin 36 (PB15) can also be used as SPI2_MOSI.
2023-11-23T15:01:22 < qyx> no it is not set unless you configure alternate function in GPIO
2023-11-23T15:01:25 < kdehl> But there seems to be no intuitive way to configure those other pins in IOC. It just assumes I want to use PC1, and if I want anything else I have to do so manyakky,
2023-11-23T15:01:50 < qyx> it doesn't assume it, where did you read that?
2023-11-23T15:02:23 < kdehl> qyx: It just enables PC1 as MOSI by default. If I want another one, I have to configure it myself. Then PC1 returns to a generic GPIO.
2023-11-23T15:02:33 < qyx> what
2023-11-23T15:03:37 < qyx> to enable SPI on F4, you have to enable SPI clock in the RCC register
2023-11-23T15:03:49 < qyx> then you have to configure SPI in the corresponding SPI registers
2023-11-23T15:04:11 < kdehl> Okay, maybe I'm a bit confusing. I just assumed that when I enable SPI2 in the Pinout Configuration GUI, I should get a question of whether I want to use PC1, PC3 or PB15 as MOSI. When I do enable it, the configurator just sets PC1 as MOSI and assumes I'm happy with it.
2023-11-23T15:05:29 < qyx> then you have to configure GPIO to assign a pin an alternate function, in this particular case, for F446, PC1 have to be set to AF7 in order to get SPI2_MOSI working on that pin
2023-11-23T15:05:34 < qyx> ok fuck configurators
2023-11-23T15:05:48 < qyx> that's the exact cause people keep struggling with things
2023-11-23T15:06:59 < kdehl> Yeah really.
2023-11-23T15:07:27 < kdehl> I just wondered if there was something that I missed.
2023-11-23T15:08:10 < qyx> yeah you skipped a few steps which are apparently defaults in the gui
2023-11-23T15:09:56 < kdehl> I can configure the other pins myself in the GUI if I want, I just thought it was crappy that it just gives you one specific pin and that's it.
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2023-11-23T16:09:29 < kdehl> So, do you guys not use STM's cube IDE at all?
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2023-11-23T16:10:57 < kdehl> One thing I like about it s that it's so easy to find all configuration bits without having to spend hours digging into the datasheet.
2023-11-23T16:11:25 < kdehl> So one could just use the IDE to set all bits, copy the code it generates, and then move to a different development environment entirely.
2023-11-23T16:33:02 < catphish> i don't use cubeide, it's just too heavy for my taste
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2023-11-23T17:55:31 < mawk> what is the ten-thousands digit of 5^5^5^5^5 zyp ?
2023-11-23T17:55:48 < mawk> it's forbidden to compute the number directly with a computer 
2023-11-23T17:56:08 < mawk> if it's even possible 
2023-11-23T17:57:56 < karlp> hem, 5?
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2023-11-23T18:26:55 < zyp> mawk, 0
2023-11-23T18:28:46 < zyp> 5^5 is 3125, 5^3125 % 100000 = 3125 and so on
2023-11-23T18:30:03 < zyp> you only care about the ten-thousanths digit which will be unaffected by any higher digits, hence the modulo
2023-11-23T18:30:43 < zyp> and since 5^5^5 is effectively identical to 5^5, you can repeat that as many times as you want and it'll remain 0
2023-11-23T18:33:57 < mawk> yes
2023-11-23T18:35:38 < mawk> when you consider 5^5^5^5^5 mod 2⁵ (that's the only thing that matters, mod 5⁵ it's zero) you go up the tower and reduce every exponent
2023-11-23T18:36:32 < mawk> the first 5 is mod 32, then the next is mod 16, then 8, then 4, then 2
2023-11-23T18:37:22 < mawk> even before going up the tower you know the only thing that matters is our number mod 32
2023-11-23T18:37:31 < mawk> and there are not many different possible values for it
2023-11-23T18:39:27 < mawk> proving why it's true though must be done more carefully 
2023-11-23T18:39:34 < mawk> you need to go up the tower
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2023-11-23T18:39:59 < mawk> when you're at the mod 4 level, 5 = 1 so everything above vanishes
2023-11-23T18:40:38 < mawk> you're left with 5^5^5 mod 32
2023-11-23T18:41:10 < mawk> then 5^5 mod 16 can be computed by hand, it's just 5
2023-11-23T18:41:40 < mawk> so we're left with 5^5 mod 32
2023-11-23T18:42:21 < mawk> which can also be computed by hand, and it's -11
2023-11-23T18:43:12 < mawk> but it's actually better to leave it under the 5^5 form because then you see at a glance that it's the solution to {x = -11 mod 2⁵; x = 0 mod 5⁵}
2023-11-23T18:43:41 < mawk> so our number is 5^5 mod (2⁵·5⁵)
2023-11-23T18:43:51 < mawk> = 3125 mod 100 000
2023-11-23T18:44:03 < mawk> so the digit is 0
2023-11-23T18:44:17 < mawk> this is applying the chink remainder theorem
2023-11-23T18:44:57 < mawk> what would we do without the chinese
2023-11-23T18:45:28 < mawk> no tshirts, no iphones, no covid, no remainder theorems; it would be a sad world
2023-11-23T18:47:03 < mawk> so that's how you prove it zyp
2023-11-23T18:47:42 < zyp> sounds like a hassle
2023-11-23T18:48:03 < jpa-> norway is trying to crash finland's electric grid tomorrow
2023-11-23T18:48:12 < zyp> are we? cool
2023-11-23T18:48:45 < jpa-> yeah, you sold us 6 GW on nordpool without any intention of providing it
2023-11-23T18:49:18 < zyp> wat
2023-11-23T18:49:26 < jpa-> electricity will cost -0.50 EUR/kWh  => all finnish people will turn on their electric saunas for whole day
2023-11-23T18:49:38 < mawk> finding the value is one thing, but you also need to prove it
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2023-11-23T18:50:18 < mawk> how many electric saunas do you have zyp
2023-11-23T18:50:31 < zyp> hmm, tomorrow is kinda expensive here: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/WG7eV.jpg
2023-11-23T18:50:52 < mawk> 110 øre
2023-11-23T18:50:59 < zyp> but I'm in the price zone the furthest away from finland you get
2023-11-23T18:51:20 < jpa-> https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/maps/#/nordic not enough cables
2023-11-23T18:51:21 < mawk> stromprijs
2023-11-23T18:51:29 < zyp> yeah, øre is NOK cents
2023-11-23T18:51:41 < mawk> it looks like dutch with ø sprinkled everywhere 
2023-11-23T18:52:07 < zyp> well, dutch looks like a hybrid of norwegian and german
2023-11-23T18:52:16 < mawk> jawel
2023-11-23T18:53:33 < zyp> mawk, I did prove it, my proof is just simpler than yours
2023-11-23T18:53:36 < mawk> android keyboard has your ø and ß 5
2023-11-23T18:53:37 < mawk> 4
2023-11-23T18:53:40 < mawk> 3
2023-11-23T18:53:46 < mawk> oops
2023-11-23T18:54:00 < mawk> has your ø and ß and all that but not the dutch ij letter
2023-11-23T18:54:08 < mawk> blatant discrimination 
2023-11-23T18:54:38 < mawk> ij
2023-11-23T18:54:49 < mawk> stromprijs
2023-11-23T18:56:01 < mawk> IJs
2023-11-23T18:56:03 < zyp> mawk, so 5^5^5^5^5 is f(f(f(f(5)))) where f(n) = 5^n mod 100000, f(5) => 3125 and also f(3125) => 3125
2023-11-23T18:57:00 < mawk> right 
2023-11-23T18:57:40 < mawk> computing f(3125) is a bit challenging though 
2023-11-23T18:58:43 < zyp> zyp@rin ~ $ time python -c 'print(5**5**5 % 100000)'
2023-11-23T18:58:43 < zyp> 3125
2023-11-23T18:58:43 < zyp> real	0m0.039s
2023-11-23T18:58:43 < zyp> user	0m0.013s
2023-11-23T18:58:43 < zyp> sys	0m0.021s
2023-11-23T18:59:09 < mawk> yes if you have a computer 
2023-11-23T18:59:36 < zyp> I prefer computing with a computer
2023-11-23T18:59:40 < mawk> pow(5, 3125, 10**5) uses fast exponentiation 
2023-11-23T19:00:22 < zyp> true
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2023-11-23T19:01:26 < mawk> computers are instruments of the devil 
2023-11-23T19:01:36 < mawk> god gave us hands to hold a pencil, and eyes to see the paper
2023-11-23T19:02:11 < englishman> bill gave us ergonomic keyboards so noone has to use that crap
2023-11-23T19:03:20 < zyp> mawk, I've got a song for you: https://youtu.be/_dt7RJGpPhg
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2023-11-23T19:06:20 < mawk> lol
2023-11-23T19:06:42 < mawk> I have a calculator in my backpack
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2023-11-23T19:07:37 < mawk> https://education.ti.com/nl/producten/rekenmachines/graphische-rekenmachines/ti-nspire-cx-cas
2023-11-23T19:07:39 < mawk> this one
2023-11-23T19:07:52 < mawk> they made a version II but I'm too poor to get it
2023-11-23T19:08:55 < mawk> there's python in the new one
2023-11-23T19:09:01 < mawk> the old one has just BASIC
2023-11-23T19:09:22 < zyp> this? https://education.ti.com/nl/producten/rekenmachines/graphische-rekenmachines/ti-84-plus-ce-t-python
2023-11-23T19:09:45 < zyp> looks pretty cool, but I'm not sure why I'd want that over python on a regular computer
2023-11-23T19:10:08 < mawk> this https://education.ti.com/nl/producten/rekenmachines/graphische-rekenmachines/ti-nspire-cx-ii-cx-ii-cas
2023-11-23T19:10:23 < zyp> still
2023-11-23T19:11:12 < mawk> there's a bunch of CAS functions, some kind of excel, data acquisition module things, something similar to latex
2023-11-23T19:11:20 < mawk> and BASIC
2023-11-23T19:11:27 < mawk> and a bunch of other things I forgot 
2023-11-23T19:11:37 < mawk> it's better than my phone calculator 
2023-11-23T19:11:55 < zyp> but why would I want that over my computer?
2023-11-23T19:11:55 < mawk> for doing stuff like matrix computations 
2023-11-23T19:12:19 < mawk> it's more usable than a python REPL or a wolframalpha prompt
2023-11-23T19:12:22 < mawk> if you do maths
2023-11-23T19:12:53 < mawk> but if you have a CAS program on your computer already I guess there's no advantage 
2023-11-23T19:13:35 < zyp> I figure the only thing are exam restrictions, but I'm way too old to care about those
2023-11-23T19:13:50 < zyp> and doesn't the highend calculators get banned anyway?
2023-11-23T19:14:04 < mawk> I had it in highschool 
2023-11-23T19:14:18 < mawk> they authorize it with the exam restrictions 
2023-11-23T19:14:19 < zyp> I've certainly had some where we weren't allowed calculators that could do symbolic calculations
2023-11-23T19:14:27 < mawk> in France, in Dutchlandia too
2023-11-23T19:14:32 < zyp> and no already stored programs
2023-11-23T19:14:42 < mawk> yeah that's the exam mode
2023-11-23T19:14:52 < mawk> it hides all your already typed programs and latex stuff
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2023-11-23T19:15:10 < mawk> they gave one of these calculators to every student when I was in highschool 
2023-11-23T19:15:12 < zyp> for a specified time?
2023-11-23T19:15:14 < mawk> that's how I got it
2023-11-23T19:15:19 < mawk> yes I think 
2023-11-23T19:15:27 < mawk> they didn't bother with exam mode for me
2023-11-23T19:15:29 < zyp> okay, that actually sounds convenient
2023-11-23T19:16:42 < mawk> with a otg cable you could connect them together and send games
2023-11-23T19:16:54 < mawk> there were games like nyan cat or whatever 
2023-11-23T19:17:00 < mawk> written in C I guess 
2023-11-23T19:24:16 < Steffanx> My TI 84+ could all this too 😅
2023-11-23T19:25:10 < jpa-> i wish i had a reason to buy numworks calculator
2023-11-23T19:25:11 < Steffanx> Except for exam mode. Exam mode was: remove batteries, reinsert and poof all the non-archived notes/apps were gone.
2023-11-23T19:25:15 < jpa-> it even does physical units pretty well
2023-11-23T19:26:01 < mawk> the TI stuff too
2023-11-23T19:26:19 < mawk> numworkz is made in France 
2023-11-23T19:26:53 < jpa-> computer keyboard is just so much more effective that no point having a separate calculator
2023-11-23T19:27:47 < mawk> https://www.numworks.com/fr/simulateur/
2023-11-23T19:27:53 < mawk> depends for what
2023-11-23T19:28:13 < mawk> for hitting symbols and stuff quickly it's not really faster
2023-11-23T19:28:23 < mawk> when you have nested expressions and things like that
2023-11-23T19:28:36 < mawk> having WYSIWYG input is very useful 
2023-11-23T19:46:23 < jbo> that NumWorks thing is what Ecco built, no?
2023-11-23T20:04:07 < jpa-> is it?
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2023-11-23T21:07:49 < qyx> still no lava karlp?
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2023-11-23T22:31:27 < kdehl> I'm confused. I'm reading an2606 - boot modes, and for SPI boot, they denote MOSI as input and MISO as output. How does that work, isn't the microcontroller the master and the SD card the master?
2023-11-23T22:32:06 < kdehl> I'm using a STM32F446.
2023-11-23T22:32:11 < kdehl> an
2023-11-23T22:33:08 < kdehl> The NSS pin is also an input...
2023-11-23T22:33:57 < kdehl> No wait. It says the SPI is in slave mode. But that doesn't make sense to me. Is the SD card the master?
2023-11-23T22:34:35 < kdehl> I must have misunderstood this entirely.
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2023-11-23T22:38:00 < qyx> there is no sd card involved
2023-11-23T22:38:16 < kdehl> Oh. So I can't boot from an SD card?
2023-11-23T22:38:25 < kdehl> With the internal boot loader, that is.
2023-11-23T22:38:25 < qyx> none of STM32s except MP1/2 can boot from external media as a master
2023-11-23T22:38:56 < qyx> the internal ROM bootloader described in an2606 is always a slave
2023-11-23T22:39:37 < kdehl> Aha. So boot over SPI is like that DFU stuff over USB; you need to have a device at the other end that sends data to you.
2023-11-23T22:40:20 < kdehl> Well, that explains it. Heh. I had completely misunderstood it all. :)
2023-11-23T22:40:56 < zyp> nothing stops you from writing your own bootloader that can boot from anything though
2023-11-23T22:41:12 < zyp> including sdcards
2023-11-23T22:42:46 < qyx> but the question is where to, but that's for another discussion
2023-11-23T22:44:29 < kdehl> zyp: This is true.
2023-11-23T22:45:03 < qyx> a semi-related thought, can U5+hyperram fit inside the 500 uA bill?
2023-11-23T22:45:27 < qyx> that is, in a rough 1 mW
2023-11-23T22:45:31 < zyp> qyx, wrt. where to: h7 value line has more ram than flash
2023-11-23T22:45:50 < qyx> yeah but that's the external XIP experiment line
2023-11-23T22:46:11 < zyp> so on e.g. a h750, it's pretty feasible to just load application from sdcard into ram and execute
2023-11-23T22:46:58 < qyx> but H7 is such a horsepower that downgrading it to a 512K/256K or 512K/512K part is a sin
2023-11-23T22:47:02 < zyp> apart from that, you can bootload to XIP flash fine too
2023-11-23T22:47:20 < qyx> but yeah
2023-11-23T22:47:22 < qyx> all true
2023-11-23T22:47:31 < zyp> checksum image on sdcard and in flash, compare, update if mismatch
2023-11-23T22:47:32 < qyx> but the point stands, H7 excluded
2023-11-23T22:47:43 < zyp> IIRC there's some 3d printer boards that's upgrading like that
2023-11-23T22:47:58 < zyp> including possibly the one I got in my voron, IIRC
2023-11-23T22:48:02 < qyx> I did that too but with SPI NOR
2023-11-23T22:48:23 < zyp> the point of sdcard is you can then just drop new image on card and put it in the device
2023-11-23T22:48:31 < zyp> no need to interact with device directly
2023-11-23T22:50:00 < qyx> oh that reminds me of one device I was dealing with, imagine a thought experiment, you are hanging off a bridge as a serviceman
2023-11-23T22:50:14 < qyx> and you want to download data from a device, let's say 64 GB
2023-11-23T22:50:53 < qyx> is it easier to 1. open the device and swaps the memory media or 2. attach a downloader" to a waterproof connector and wait 20 minutes to download
2023-11-23T22:51:18 < kdehl> Yeah, I think I might have mixed this whole thing up with this Cortex-A SAMA5D2 that someone recommended me in here earlier. That one seems to be able to boot from an SD card.
2023-11-23T22:51:41 < qyx> kdehl: cortex-a is a totally different world
2023-11-23T22:52:19 < zyp> qyx, the 20 minutes figure coming from usb2?
2023-11-23T22:52:26 < kdehl> qyx: I'm starting to see that.
2023-11-23T22:53:05 < qyx> zyp: yeah, +-
2023-11-23T22:53:18 < jpa-> iirc RP2040 also has sd card boot
2023-11-23T22:53:46 < jpa-> but for anythind with internal flash, just add your own bootloader
2023-11-23T22:54:40 < kdehl> Right.
2023-11-23T22:55:40 < kdehl> Well, I'm just experimenting. I made a test board with this 'F446 and it works more or less. I made some mistakes so I'll make a new revision. I figured I should add some more features to it while I'm at it.
2023-11-23T22:56:08 < kdehl> Next project will be to make a Cortex A board. But that is probably a few months down the road, a least.
2023-11-23T22:56:13 < zyp> qyx, well, opening the device would presumably be faster, but easier to fuck up
2023-11-23T22:57:17 < zyp> depending a bit on the exact mechanical construction
2023-11-23T22:58:03 < zyp> the ideal solution would be some sort of waterproof hot swap bays, i.e. waterproof connectors for devices that remain more or less permanently attached
2023-11-23T22:58:49 < zyp> but I guess that's hard to do without ending up with the storage dangling off a cable, and that doesn't sound desirable
2023-11-23T22:59:45 < qyx> hm it could be shaped as a dynamit-sized piece of pipe
2023-11-23T23:02:12 < ds2> painted red too? 
2023-11-23T23:03:57 < qyx> I have better things to do than sit in a jail
2023-11-23T23:04:33 < qyx> but the storage can be screw-on type on one end of the pipe
2023-11-23T23:06:22 < zyp> maybe you could pot it into a M12 plug or something
2023-11-23T23:08:48 < qyx> one of those miniature USB-C flash drives in a Mxx plug
2023-11-23T23:09:42 < qyx> oh ot is called an micro-SD card
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2023-11-23T23:32:31 < karlp> qyx: no lava. we downgraded alert level fo rthe town, they're allowed home between 9 and 16 today, and "until new decisions"
2023-11-23T23:32:37 < karlp> still emptied at night.
2023-11-23T23:32:51 < karlp> still cosnidered high risk for eruption, but more liekly somewhat north of town.
2023-11-23T23:32:57 < karlp> no idea.
2023-11-23T23:33:09 < karlp> the expansion and subsidence continues, just slower.
2023-11-23T23:39:00 < karlp> qyx: just accept that you want "bigger" devices, and put your own device in an outer box.  so you can just do swap of a usb thumbdrive, and have the thumbdrive+base inside the "outer" box.
2023-11-23T23:39:19 < karlp> we got a unit from a vendor at old job, where one of the requirements had been "must be single unit, for ease of installation"
2023-11-23T23:39:36 < karlp> so it was literally just a "single unit" box on the outside, jsut pre-wired from N fucking modules inside
2023-11-23T23:39:48 < karlp> by all accounts, quite common and well accepted
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2023-11-23T23:49:27 < qyx> I hate that stuff
2023-11-23T23:49:34 < qyx> but yes, very common
--- Day changed pe marras 24 2023
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2023-11-24T00:40:13 < karlp> yay, jlc now has "preferred extended"
2023-11-24T00:40:18 < karlp> which you can't search for explicitly.
2023-11-24T00:40:25 < karlp> but is... the same as basic? no feeders fee?
2023-11-24T01:30:41 < karlp> oh dear. all my browser tabs are crashing, and dnf update is giving "bus errors"
2023-11-24T01:30:50 < karlp> I think this means time to turn the cmputer off...
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2023-11-24T03:53:34 < aandrew> dnf update is giving "bus errors"
2023-11-24T03:53:37 < aandrew> wow that's pretty bad
2023-11-24T03:55:10 < specing> disk is kaput
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2023-11-24T05:32:00 < machinehum> Have you guys used hardware like this?
2023-11-24T05:32:02 < machinehum> https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/keystone-electronics/4871/6234707?utm_adgroup=&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=PMax%20Product_Medium%20ROAS%20Categories&utm_term=&productid=6234707&utm_content=&utm_id=go_cmp-20291741266_adg-_ad-__dev-c_ext-_prd-6234707_sig-CjwKCAiAjfyqBhAsEiwA-UdzJHKnHGf4mqSn-t0VjUh_53iGyGy9TXb6lMWEMRI18Rjw3v5jiov4GBoCmvsQAvD_BwE&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiAj
2023-11-24T05:32:04 < machinehum> fyqBhAsEiwA-UdzJHKnHGf4mqSn-t0VjUh_53iGyGy9TXb6lMWEMRI18Rjw3v5jiov4GBoCmvsQAvD_BwE
2023-11-24T05:32:17 < machinehum> Sorry use this: https://www.digikey.ca/short/m0drwzh3
2023-11-24T05:32:27 < machinehum> I'm trying to make a M.2 dock
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2023-11-24T06:43:56 < aandrew> machinehum: I have
2023-11-24T06:43:57 < aandrew> pem nuts
2023-11-24T06:44:06 < aandrew> basically solderable mechanical bits
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2023-11-24T07:57:09 < machinehum> aandrew: They can get placed by a normal SMT machine?
2023-11-24T07:57:13 < machinehum> normally*
2023-11-24T07:58:03 < machinehum> like for this guy how the hell does the paste flow https://imgur.com/a/sTUS5sx
2023-11-24T07:58:13 < machinehum> Seems like the nut would have hella thermal mass
2023-11-24T08:38:32 < aandrew> well if you're doing it pro your boards are getting profiled and the assembly house identifies issues like this and adjust oven accordingly
2023-11-24T08:38:53 < aandrew> if it's troublesome they may just do it post-reflow 
2023-11-24T08:39:46 < jpa-> thermal mass isn't really much of a problem for proper reflow, but to be placed the nut should have that little bit of tape on top
2023-11-24T08:39:56 < jpa-> to make it pickable
2023-11-24T08:40:35 < jpa-> ah, "kapton tape added to top surface" so yeah, should be fine
2023-11-24T08:40:36 < aandrew> yep exactly that - if it's sold as "machine placeable" then it'll have a bit of kapton
2023-11-24T08:40:58 < jpa-> note that you can't make a donut-shaped solder paste aperture, you'll need four arcs
2023-11-24T08:42:34 < qyx> why
2023-11-24T08:42:37 < qyx> oh never mind
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2023-11-24T10:31:43 < zyp> I've hand soldered a bunch of those
2023-11-24T10:32:39 < zyp> just applied some paste with a syringe, plopped it in and put the solder iron through the hole with a suitable tip
2023-11-24T10:32:52 < zyp> it's kinda like applying heatset inserts in plastic
2023-11-24T10:56:11 < qyx> pre-tin + hotair should work too, use BiSn for more joyful experience
2023-11-24T11:09:42 < karlp> aandrew: yeah, sounds pretty unfun friday night for me.  I found _one_ person who had a similar error, they tracked it down to a busted library.  firefox and ssh still work, though firefox crashes hard on youtube and discord?  best bet tonight is to try and use the lapðtop to redownload the dnf rpms and "fix it" by hand... but not at allll excited.
2023-11-24T11:09:47 < karlp> specing: clearly it's btrfs's fault?
2023-11-24T11:10:05 < karlp> I somehwat suspect that it ran out of space somewehre, but just ocntinues to lie about things.
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2023-11-24T11:17:05 < aandrew> karlp: I assume you threw memtest86 on a usb key ... generally I find that it'll sniff out bad RAM in the first minute of running... if no errors in the first minute you can likely run it all night and get no errors 
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2023-11-24T11:21:56 < karlp> no, it was late, I was getting ready for bed.
2023-11-24T11:22:19 < karlp> and no, I haven't run memtest, I would be surprised if a memtest type rror would be so restricted to dnf.
2023-11-24T11:27:27 < zyp> chrome tabs randomly crashing was the first symptom I noticed when I had a bad ram stick a couple of years ago
2023-11-24T11:28:18 < zyp> memtest86 told me which of the four sticks in the computer was bad, so I pulled it and then it was all good again
2023-11-24T11:28:24 < karlp> well, I'llgive it a go too I guess.
2023-11-24T11:28:51 < karlp> I had a weird dnf error about a corrupt download last night initially, so I just did "dnf clean" and rebooted and tried again.
2023-11-24T11:29:23 < karlp> (was _actually_ trying to just get thing supdated again to see if a weird kicad ui bug would go away so I could actually do what I wanted to do, but hey, so it goes)
2023-11-24T11:30:22 < zyp> that's the thing about bad non-ECC memory, everything else seems to work fine, you just get weird behavior in the applications that happens to get mapped into the bad area and tries to use it
2023-11-24T11:30:57 < karlp> but dnf shouldn't get mapped to the same place every single time though, it's new processes every time?
2023-11-24T11:32:03 < zyp> could be some disk cache got mapped there that held a file dnf tried to load every single time
2023-11-24T11:57:19 < karlp> TI manual: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/lUj3C.png "eeprom" nice one.
2023-11-24T12:01:26 < qyx> flash memmory is an EEPROM type
2023-11-24T12:02:01 < qyx> idk if MX66 is a flash though
2023-11-24T12:04:48 < zyp> I think it's SPI NAND
2023-11-24T12:06:27 < qyx> is it even possible that the standard fakra-smb Z-coded is unobtainium?
2023-11-24T12:10:25 < zyp> how so?
2023-11-24T12:10:54 < zyp> I did a google search and it looks like off the shelf shit at every car stereo shop
2023-11-24T12:11:12 < zyp> what do you need? jack? plug? cable assembly?
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2023-11-24T12:12:59 < karlp> I don't know, I don't really like calling flash eeprom.  I'm sure it fits the "e e" parts, but...
2023-11-24T12:13:23 < zyp> flash memory is eeprom that's restricted to page erase
2023-11-24T12:13:40 < qyx> it actually looks like I-coded is used for WiFi
2023-11-24T12:13:48 < qyx> no I am searching only TE and rosenberger at mouser
2023-11-24T12:14:03 < qyx> and I was pretty surprised that TE doesn't have Z
2023-11-24T12:14:06 < qyx> PCB header
2023-11-24T12:14:22 < zyp> I don't have any experience with fakra, but it looks like it's used for car stereo antennas nowadays
2023-11-24T12:14:23 < karlp> fine, I'll grump to myself. it's a distractin anyway.  this tiva dev board doesn't appear on usb with it's onboard ti-icdi thing, and it uses a _20_ pin debug connector, so I can't use my jlink, or my orbtrace, because I don't have the 20pin cable for the orbtrace here..
2023-11-24T12:14:45 < qyx> zyp: it is used for everything car because poka-yoke, colour coded & keyed
2023-11-24T12:15:01 < karlp> curious what would  be wrong with the onboard debugger though...
2023-11-24T12:15:13 < qyx> and I am using it for the exact same purpose, because it is the only coaxial connector system with any coding, keying and locking
2023-11-24T12:15:26 < zyp> karlp, the old 20-pin 2.54mm jtag, actual 20-pin 1.27mm debug and trace or something entirely different?
2023-11-24T12:15:37 < karlp> the 20pin 1.27mm, 
2023-11-24T12:15:42 < zyp> being TI, I'd kinda bet on the latter, especially if it's not 2.54mm
2023-11-24T12:15:45 < karlp> they explicitly say no ETM though
2023-11-24T12:16:36 < zyp> my experience with TI is that they like inventing their own debug interfaces instead of following common standards, both physically and logically
2023-11-24T12:16:47 < zyp> I mean, they have cortex-m stuff with cJTAG instead of SWD
2023-11-24T12:17:15 < karlp> I just... why isn''t the debugger appearing on my usb ? it poewrs on the board.
2023-11-24T12:17:27 < karlp> let me re-read the manual again, see if there's some jumpers some predecesssor has moved or something
2023-11-24T12:20:32 < karlp> wat.  moving the backlight jumpe rto "off" powers up 3v3 and the debugger.
2023-11-24T12:20:43 < karlp> I guess my hub isn't providing enough power or something. meh
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2023-11-24T14:45:40 < nomorekaki> norwegian electricity market trader had apparently decimal point error resulting into selling 5600MW of power to finngrid starting from 15:00
2023-11-24T14:46:23 < nomorekaki> price -50c/kwh all way to 23:00
2023-11-24T14:47:12 < nomorekaki> waiting for lights to start dimming
2023-11-24T14:56:02 < specing> -50c lolol
2023-11-24T14:56:09 < specing> that's going to be a huge loss
2023-11-24T15:02:14 < nomorekaki> its rather complex
2023-11-24T15:04:22 < nomorekaki> there might be other parties that take L too as a result
2023-11-24T15:05:31 < specing> someone must be "happily" eating those losses, otherwise these companies would have looked into ways of burning off the excess, either by simple resistive heaters or by crypto installations or by making green hydrogen or methane
2023-11-24T15:06:03 < nomorekaki> I think hydrogen infra is not yet there
2023-11-24T15:06:45 < nomorekaki> big talks and since money got more expensive it has been silent
2023-11-24T15:06:51 < specing> oil is still too cheap to use batteries and hydrogen in shipping
2023-11-24T15:07:06 < specing> or transport
2023-11-24T15:07:30 < nomorekaki> it's good for energy storage with 20% efficiency
2023-11-24T15:07:34 < specing> the conversion can happen rather quickly when oil subsisdies are removed
2023-11-24T15:07:57 < nomorekaki> maybe 50% or something if you heat cities with residual heat
2023-11-24T15:08:39 < specing> excess power tapers off in winter though
2023-11-24T15:08:57 < nomorekaki> mostly
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2023-11-24T15:41:28 < jpa-> no excess power when it is just a trader mistake
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2023-11-24T15:49:12 < karlp> fucking werror again:https://github.com/hathach/tinyusb/issues/2277
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2023-11-24T15:53:55 < Steffanx> awh
2023-11-24T16:16:08 < karlp> wat: BOARD_UPPER = $(subst a,A,$(subst b,B,$(subst c,C,$(subst d,D,$(subst e,E,$(subst f,F,$(subst g,G,$(subst h,H,$(subst i,I,$(subst j,J,$(subst k,K,$(subst l,L,$(subst m,M,$(subst n,N,$(subst o,O,$(subst p,P,$(subst q,Q,$(subst r,R,$(subst s,S,$(subst t,T,$(subst u,U,$(subst v,V,$(subst w,W,$(subst x,X,$(subst y,Y,$(subst z,Z,$(subst -,_,$(BOARD))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
2023-11-24T16:16:14 < karlp> make gone wild...
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2023-11-24T16:20:09 < ventYl> wtf?
2023-11-24T16:26:52 < karlp> https://github.com/hathach/tinyusb/blob/master/examples/build_system/make/make.mk#L109
2023-11-24T16:27:04 < karlp> it's "only" used in the examples at least :)
2023-11-24T16:30:25 < ventYl> scheissdrek
2023-11-24T16:50:21 < Steffanx> i guess its the only way to do it not depending on shells (?)
2023-11-24T16:58:26 < karlp> man, tinyusb is not nearly as "superb and robust" as everyone talks about it with. at least... not the host side...
2023-11-24T16:58:35 < karlp> but it seems host is pretty rough everywhere for mcus..
2023-11-24T17:07:14 < ventYl> Steffanx: what's the point of not depending on shell in something that is essentially useless without it?
2023-11-24T17:08:42 < Steffanx> this would work fine in make.exe too. (not sure if there are no other dependencies, but .. )
2023-11-24T17:12:26 < ventYl> you would still have to take differences between sh cmd and ps into account
2023-11-24T17:12:56 < ventYl> like that make can't execute msvc because it ignores some details of cmd vs. msvc interaction
2023-11-24T17:27:17 -!- ferdna [~ferdna@user/ferdna] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
2023-11-24T17:31:30 < Steffanx> And then you still have to find a portable way to convert lower to upper case. Now you dont. (if all you need is a-z -> A-Z).
2023-11-24T17:33:42 < Steffanx> This would be so much better as a solution for windows https://ss64.com/nt/syntax-tolower.html
2023-11-24T17:37:19 < Steffanx> Anyway, who uses windows. Fuck Windows
2023-11-24T17:41:27 < karlp> meh, tinyusb doesn't even support host mode on stm32...
2023-11-24T17:44:30 < ventYl> Steffanx: I would let CMake to generate the buildsystem for me. it has portable upcase method and fuck everything else.
2023-11-24T17:45:14 < Steffanx> or just write the name in upper-case in the first place.
2023-11-24T17:46:43 < ventYl> that depends on where the string comes from
2023-11-24T17:47:45 < ventYl> if it is a filename, then good luck :) because windows filesystem is case insensitive, except of cases where the case matters
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2023-11-24T18:15:06 < zyp> karlp, yeah, I was looking at some tinyusb issue a while ago and got the impression that it's not really all that polished
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2023-11-24T18:15:35 < karlp> everyone seems to rave about it, but it might just be that it supports rpi ...
2023-11-24T18:16:09 < karlp> gonna have to try the tivaware stack harder on monday I guess :|
2023-11-24T18:18:31 < zyp> what are you gonna be host for?
2023-11-24T18:18:39 < zyp> as in, what devices will you support?
2023-11-24T18:18:46 < karlp> barcode scanner
2023-11-24T18:18:50 < zyp> ah
2023-11-24T18:18:55 < karlp> via a hub, 
2023-11-24T18:19:02 < karlp> not sure what the second port is intended for...
2023-11-24T18:19:18 < karlp> I suspect an alternate keypad
2023-11-24T18:19:39 < karlp> tinyusb is sort of working, but it's hard to say if it's buggy core, or buggy hcd for tiva.
2023-11-24T18:19:52 < karlp> it's been merged, but never had the docs updated to say supported.
2023-11-24T18:20:16 < karlp> but I've got asserts in multiple examples doign things that I think should be supported :)
2023-11-24T18:20:51 < karlp> cherry usb _appears_ "complete" but supports even more esoteric parts, and docs are only in zh_cn.
2023-11-24T18:21:06 < zyp> in your position, I'd probably take it as a justification to add host mode to laks or something
2023-11-24T18:21:13 < karlp> lol.
2023-11-24T18:21:28 < karlp> do even _more_ code?
2023-11-24T18:21:31 < zyp> probably not reusing much/any of the existing device mode code though
2023-11-24T18:21:40 < karlp> currently the _code_ portion has been close to zero.
2023-11-24T18:21:58 < karlp> I've spent the day on tinyusb as it seemed close and plausible, 
2023-11-24T18:22:13 < zyp> yeah, yeah, it's just that the problem you're attempting to solve sounds simple, and I'd rather fix my own bugs than other people's bugs :)
2023-11-24T18:22:14 < karlp> bringing in a c++ library _and_ having to write it all doesn't sound viable at all :)
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2023-11-24T18:22:29 < karlp> and I've got a tivaware demo that.... sort of works.
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2023-11-24T18:22:55 < karlp> also, this was "believed to be working" so it was expected six months ago, and they'v eonly just discovered it wasn't ever even compiled in.
2023-11-24T18:23:22 < karlp> just this standalone test code that just barely demonstrates that the hardware works.
2023-11-24T18:24:18 < zyp> if I ever get around to do a proper usb api cleanup in laks, I'll probably consider host support while I'm at it
2023-11-24T18:24:54 < zyp> because the usb pipes themselves aren't really much different
2023-11-24T18:25:20 < karlp> no, mostly the work si in writing all the drivers bits to make it useful, as best I can tell.
2023-11-24T18:25:27 < karlp> the _usb_ portions are pretty "simple"
2023-11-24T18:25:51 < zyp> the big difference between device and host is enumeration
2023-11-24T18:26:10 < karlp> tivaware only supports a single hub layer too :)
2023-11-24T18:26:15 < karlp> thankfully, that's acceptable.
2023-11-24T18:27:38 < zyp> I think most of the time a host doesn't have to care about hub topology
2023-11-24T18:28:09 < karlp> well both tivaware and tinyusb have limits on hub stackign for "reasons" but I'v enot looked too deep into it.
2023-11-24T18:28:15 < zyp> it matters for the power budget, and then it matters when a whole hub gets disconnected
2023-11-24T18:28:43 < zyp> data structure related, perhaps
2023-11-24T18:32:35 < jpa-> i'll soon find out if nuttx STM32 USB host works or not
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2023-11-24T18:43:02 < karlp> cherryusb has support for this: https://www.essemi.com/mobile/product/gallery?cid=129 which has musb inside, but a) never heard of it, b) not even on lcsc, so gooooood luck
2023-11-24T18:44:23 < karlp> zyp should like them though, their sdk uses scons ;)
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2023-11-24T19:09:17 < zyp> naming suggests another stm32 clone
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2023-11-24T20:10:17 < Ecco> Just received an STLinkv3-minie
2023-11-24T20:10:28 < Ecco> it's so cute and tiny! And pretty cheap too, I paid like $10 for it
2023-11-24T20:12:56 < Mangy_Dog> that would be using a clone for sure
2023-11-24T20:13:05 < Mangy_Dog> tbh in the end if the clones work.... i dont cafe
2023-11-24T20:13:06 < Mangy_Dog> care
2023-11-24T20:13:47 < Mangy_Dog> talking of... i should get around and make that damn py32 swd programmer
2023-11-24T20:19:06 < jpa-> Ecco: and so useless ;)
2023-11-24T20:38:24 < Ecco> Really? Why?
2023-11-24T20:40:52 < Ecco> And it even also serve as a TTL USB-UART adapter, that's plug'n'play on macOS and Linux
2023-11-24T20:40:57 < Ecco> (and probably windows too?)
2023-11-24T20:41:06 < Ecco> (and that's pretty fast for an UART? up to 15Mbps)
2023-11-24T20:41:23 < Ecco> I mean, so far I like it, but maybe it's because I don't know any better?
2023-11-24T20:41:30 < Ecco> I think it's really hard to beat for $10 tho
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2023-11-24T20:51:04 < jpa-> IIRC stlinkv3 has some stupid limitation to only ST parts
2023-11-24T20:52:02 < jpa-> the fast UART & SWO is nice though
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--- Log closed pe marras 24 23:34:20 2023
--- Log opened pe marras 24 23:34:30 2023
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--- Day changed la marras 25 2023
2023-11-25T00:27:48 < karlp> I don't think we should jus tlabel everything with 32 in the name as an stm32 clone
2023-11-25T00:28:07 < karlp> these es32* parts don't have any other numbering the same as st parts at all.
2023-11-25T00:29:38 < karlp> usb hs otg, plus 5v io ports. odd parts :)
2023-11-25T00:32:23 < karlp> anyway, the things you bother reading when you're watching memtest scroll by on the "real" computer
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2023-11-25T02:57:57 < zyp> karlp, not just 32, but 32f3
2023-11-25T02:58:33 < zyp> but yeah yeah, the digits after that doesn't follow the usual pattern
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2023-11-25T03:37:33 < Ecco> What do you guys think of BlackMagic?
2023-11-25T03:37:46 < Ecco> I don't really see how it's an improvement over OpenOCD
2023-11-25T03:38:03 < Ecco> I mean sure, I don't need to install OpenOCD, but then in exchange for this I need to reflash my STlink
2023-11-25T03:38:21 < Ecco> Does blackmagic eventually work better than openocd?
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2023-11-25T05:24:28 < upgrdman> damn, it seems nearly impossible to find "real" reviews of color laser printers :(
2023-11-25T05:24:48 < upgrdman> so much SEO / affiliate marketing bullshit
2023-11-25T05:25:17 < upgrdman> anyone know of a good color laser printer? wish i could find a color laser that did 1200dpi
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2023-11-25T08:30:09 < jpa-> upgrdman: i've only had bad ones
2023-11-25T08:31:49 < upgrdman> shit :(
2023-11-25T08:34:20 < jpa-> HP Color Laserjet 1600 lasted maybe 6 years before it lost one of the colors permanently, then soon lost another one. Samsung CLP-350 lasted only 3 years before it started having paper feed issues, possibly because of those it also started leaking toner into internal parts and making a mess
2023-11-25T08:34:50 < jpa-> now i just use a 30 EUR canon inkjet that has worked 6 years without issues
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2023-11-25T08:38:04 < upgrdman> im tempted to buy a cheap inkjet, but i only print ~5 pages per month, so i think it would clog way too often :(
2023-11-25T08:38:21 < jpa-> it doesn't for me
2023-11-25T08:38:43 < upgrdman> hmm
2023-11-25T08:39:00 < jpa-> get one where the print head is with the cartridge, if it ever clogs it's not that bad
2023-11-25T08:40:42 < jpa-> only annoying thing about the canon mg3051 i have is that the scanner software for linux had some autodiscovery feature that didnt work ; fortunately they provided the source code so i just set a constant ip address :)
2023-11-25T08:40:58 < upgrdman> i have a Brother black and white laser printer, ~12 years old... still on the first toner cartridge, lol. printed out the statistics, and it seems i have printer 1100 pages total... so <100 pages per year
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2023-11-25T08:42:58 < upgrdman> and i have a Brother color laser at work... it's color sucks. shit gamut, and very obvious non-uniformity.
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2023-11-25T10:07:12 < qyx> jpa-: I used my epson laser for nearly 10 years
2023-11-25T10:07:51 < qyx> but a bug got fused in the fusing unit so there was always a bug-sized unfused toner on the paper
2023-11-25T10:13:06 < jpa-> :D
2023-11-25T10:15:18 < BrainDamage> did you open a bug report to the manifacturer?
2023-11-25T10:15:47 < BrainDamage> "due to a bug, there's constant unprinted section on my documents"
2023-11-25T10:20:06 < jpa-> it sounds like the bug was already fixed in place
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2023-11-25T12:03:43 < qyx> wut is jlcmc
2023-11-25T12:03:57 < qyx> economy series industrial components
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2023-11-25T12:09:10 < jpa-> nice
2023-11-25T12:12:13 < jpa-> the site seems a bit broken though
2023-11-25T12:12:48 < jpa-> or at least many categories are empty
2023-11-25T12:15:30 < qyx> 404 all the way, no sign in too
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2023-11-25T13:53:24 < karlp> well, memtest ran for 5 hours and found zero problems...
2023-11-25T13:53:47 < karlp> so. btrfs pros. In the old days, I could just delete my / partition and reinstall, and leave /home in peace.
2023-11-25T13:55:06 < karlp> whgat are you meantto do when root and home are both btrfs subvolumes?
2023-11-25T13:57:55 < karlp> also, TIL about findmnt, which is much easier to read than just "mount"
2023-11-25T13:59:42 < karlp> looks like https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/QA:Testcase_partitioning_custom_btrfs_preserve_home is what I want to walk throuhg
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2023-11-25T14:17:46 < PaulFertser> So I opened the phone, I disconnected the display module and removed it and cleaned everything properly with ethanol to ensure good adhesion. Then I take out my B-7000 and I see the following text on it, verbatim: "This was a great adhesive."
2023-11-25T14:18:04 < PaulFertser> And indeed it fucking WAS. Fully dried out by now.
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2023-11-25T14:39:45 < specing> karlp: if you use btrfs you have memtest running 24/7
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2023-11-25T17:46:41 < jbo> LOL
2023-11-25T18:32:06 < nomorekaki> PaulFertser: I have a tube of B7000
2023-11-25T18:32:12 < nomorekaki> is it useful?
2023-11-25T18:32:27 < nomorekaki> I have never used it I always go for CA or epoxy
2023-11-25T18:32:50 < nomorekaki> tube or *syringe
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2023-11-25T18:52:47 < qyx> I don't understand Vout regulation with this https://www.ti.com/product/LM51231-Q1
2023-11-25T18:52:58 < qyx> what are those Vout targets, TRK pin, etc?
2023-11-25T18:56:30 < PaulFertser> nomorekaki: CA isn't elastic and it needs ~110 degrees to get soft and it's probably not good for waterproofing.
2023-11-25T18:57:37 < PaulFertser> nomorekaki: somehow for phone repair work glues like B7000 are considered to be the golden standard.
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2023-11-25T20:33:06 < Ecco> What's the difference between an LPUART and an USART in an STM32?
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2023-11-25T20:51:18 < karlp> huh, doing backups at the moment, and I'd almost like the backup disk to be btrfs now, so I could just get a magic delta copy... :)
2023-11-25T20:51:26 < karlp> fuck it, 3T spare, just copy and wait...
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2023-11-25T21:29:06 < karlp> ok, rouigh estimates 1-2 hours...
2023-11-25T21:29:11 < karlp> better safe than sorry I guess :)
2023-11-25T21:29:15 < karlp> I love computers sometimes...
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2023-11-25T22:02:25 < qyx> Ecco: lpuart is slower, less power, able to be clocked by LSE, it can wake from stop modes
2023-11-25T22:02:50 < qyx> although the classic one can too on some families
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2023-11-25T22:11:09 < karlp> it's actually _more_ power on some parts when in normal use, but it can be _woken up_ frrom lower power modes.
2023-11-25T22:52:31 < qyx> 20 to 28 V boost, 2 A?
2023-11-25T22:52:43 < qyx> any recommendations?
2023-11-25T22:53:14 < qyx> it is pity all new parts are made for usb-c voltage levels
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2023-11-25T23:20:19 < karlp> whgee, we're back...
2023-11-25T23:20:28 < karlp> firefox even kept open tabs across reinstall
2023-11-25T23:22:22 < qyx> updatefest?
2023-11-25T23:22:44 < qyx> did you feel not recent enough?
2023-11-25T23:25:37 < karlp> no, re-install was the simplest method though whatever ended up with "dnf" bus faulting,
2023-11-25T23:25:44 < karlp> and many webpages crashing firefox tabs
2023-11-25T23:27:55 < qyx> oh that
2023-11-25T23:28:35 < karlp> yeah, it wasn't how I wanted to sped a couple of nights
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2023-11-25T23:38:57 < karlp> specing: I don't understandbtdu's "not mounted right" thing... askingme to remount the disk somewhere else to run the tool... wat?
2023-11-25T23:44:34 < specing> wat?
2023-11-25T23:45:56 < specing> I don't recommend using btrfs send/recv to backups, firstly because it's a fs tool and it could(?) transfer bugs, second because you're supposed to 3:2:1 (in three places, in two formats and one offsite)
2023-11-25T23:46:24 < specing> so if you use btrfs on main disks, use zfs on backup ones? Or something like that. Well, at least use rsync to delta-transfer
--- Day changed su marras 26 2023
2023-11-26T00:05:29 < karlp> anyway, I'm still hitting a weird kicad bug that is making it unappealing to do pcb work. so .. going to turn off this computer for a bit. it's in the naughty corner for a while.
2023-11-26T00:13:58 < karlp> look at the price on this shit though: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005870341874.html  
2023-11-26T00:14:06 < karlp> you've got a hub chip and four separate usb-ttl ics.
2023-11-26T00:19:04 < karlp> more people doing heavylua shits again https://luatos.com/
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2023-11-26T00:46:15 < qyx> if it was in something globally readable instead of moonrunes
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2023-11-26T00:55:42 < karlp> wellyeah, cherryusb was the same for me :)
2023-11-26T00:59:30 < zyp> qyx, good news is that PD3 or whatever it's called does 48V or something
2023-11-26T01:01:06 < karlp> usb == ethernet...
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2023-11-26T11:04:04 < qyx> zyp: I hope not isolated
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2023-11-26T16:15:45 < nomorekaki> Steffanx: new MI was good but damn it ended in cliffhanger
2023-11-26T16:16:15 < nomorekaki> also literally ended in cliffhanger
2023-11-26T16:51:23 < Steffanx> I don't even remember how it ended 😅
2023-11-26T17:03:26 < jbo> moin
2023-11-26T17:03:50 < jbo> Steffanx doing the alzheimer thing?
2023-11-26T17:04:16 < nomorekaki> moite
2023-11-26T17:05:58 < Steffanx> I probably wasn't impressed jbo
2023-11-26T17:06:16 < Steffanx> Or maybe I skipped it... 
2023-11-26T17:06:57 < Steffanx> Or doing other things while playing the movie
2023-11-26T17:09:45 < jbo> how are you doing today, mr. steffan?
2023-11-26T17:10:19 < nomorekaki> maybe steff is verstrooid
2023-11-26T17:13:53 < jbo> steff just wants to party
2023-11-26T17:15:38 < mawk> steff is celebrating his boy Geert's victory
2023-11-26T17:16:04 < jbo> steff being right-wing-steff
2023-11-26T17:16:22 < nomorekaki> neocon ssteff
2023-11-26T17:16:44 < Steffanx> I didn't vote for him Mr mawk 
2023-11-26T17:16:58 < mawk> did you vote for partij voor de dieren?
2023-11-26T17:17:13 < jbo> hah
2023-11-26T17:17:15 < jbo> dogsteff
2023-11-26T17:17:37 < mawk> zyp how many dice numbered from 1 to 6 should you throw so that you can form 497 503 998 different products with the results?
2023-11-26T17:17:55 < mawk> like if you throw 2 dice you can form 1×1, 1×2, …, 6×6
2023-11-26T17:18:18 < mawk> making 18 products total, after eliminating the duplicates
2023-11-26T17:18:56 < mawk> the original question is for 936 products but you can still bruteforce it so I modified it a bit
2023-11-26T17:19:02 < Steffanx> Nope not that either mawk 
2023-11-26T17:19:26 < jbo> steff only votes for swizzers
2023-11-26T17:19:36 < mawk> did you vote blank
2023-11-26T17:20:18 < Steffanx> No. Sometimes centre-ish 
2023-11-26T17:20:20 < mawk> or maybe for mister Thierry 
2023-11-26T17:20:20 < mawk> ah
2023-11-26T17:20:24 < qyx> no progressive pirates
2023-11-26T17:20:35 < jbo> steff does not like change
2023-11-26T17:20:39 < mawk> Reptilian Thierry 
2023-11-26T17:20:48 < mawk> Bottle-on-the-head Thierry 
2023-11-26T17:22:01 < Steffanx> Idk how you come to that conclusion Mr jbo 
2023-11-26T17:22:23 < jbo> because I don't like change :x
2023-11-26T17:23:58 < Steffanx> Dutchland needs some change
2023-11-26T17:24:15 < jbo> same here :<
2023-11-26T17:25:31 < Steffanx> Did you vote GL/PVDA Mr mawk?
2023-11-26T17:25:52 < mawk> who
2023-11-26T17:26:00 < mawk> there were too many people on the bulletin 
2023-11-26T17:26:12 < mawk> it didn't even fit unfolded in the voting booth
2023-11-26T17:26:30 < mawk> so I just drew a red circle at random somewhere 
2023-11-26T17:26:36 < mawk> voting is important 
2023-11-26T17:30:36 < jbo> is voting also important if you can only choose between an idiot and a douchbag?
2023-11-26T17:32:09 < mawk> you can vote blank
2023-11-26T17:32:15 < mawk> in some countries it's useful 
2023-11-26T17:32:29 < mawk> you can also draw a giant penis on the ballot
2023-11-26T17:32:40 < mawk> I should've done that instead 
2023-11-26T17:33:01 < mawk> hopefully it's not all computer-read
2023-11-26T17:45:44 < Steffanx> in dutchland you can vote for a shitload of people mr jbo 
2023-11-26T17:46:28 < zyp> mawk, 997
2023-11-26T17:47:43 < mawk> and do you have a general formula zyp?
2023-11-26T17:47:53 < mawk> how many products for n dice
2023-11-26T17:48:50 < zyp> no, I brute forced it
2023-11-26T17:49:22 < mawk> :(
2023-11-26T17:49:30 < mawk> I should've picked a bigger number
2023-11-26T17:49:34 < zyp> just kidding
2023-11-26T17:50:07 < mawk> for dice up to 9 faces it's relatively easy
2023-11-26T17:50:08 < zyp> I brute forced it to 10, found the pattern, solved it as a f(n) = f(n-1) + …
2023-11-26T17:50:21 < mawk> right 
2023-11-26T17:50:35 < mawk> but that's not a proof, that's very strong suspicion of a formula
2023-11-26T17:50:44 < mawk> the formula is (n+1)²(n+2)/2
2023-11-26T17:50:47 < mawk> for 6 faces
2023-11-26T17:51:10 < mawk> 7 points are enough to interpolate the polynomial 
2023-11-26T17:51:11 < zyp> ah, yeah, I was thinking it resembled area of triangle formula
2023-11-26T17:51:54 < mawk> The idea is to consider the sub-problem of products that involve 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6; 5 is all alone because no other faces can divide it
2023-11-26T17:52:13 < mawk> once you have it for 1, 2, 3, 4 and 6 you sum it and get the answer with 5
2023-11-26T17:52:33 < mawk> and 4 = 2², 6 = 2·3, so you really just have to think about what happens with powers of 2 and powers of 3
2023-11-26T17:52:41 < mawk> which is still doable by hand 
2023-11-26T17:52:54 < mawk> it's 2D geometry, humans are still good at it
2023-11-26T17:52:58 < zyp> yeah, I thought about primes first, seemed like too much hassle to work out, so I went looking for a pattern instead
2023-11-26T17:53:18 < mawk> for 10 faces you need to consider 2, 3, 5 together which happens in 3D, some humans can still do it
2023-11-26T17:53:31 < mawk> when you get to 12 faces you're considering 4D diagrams and that's not possible anymore 
2023-11-26T17:54:47 < mawk> with the prime factor decomposition you're considering 2^(n2 + 2n3 + n6) 3^(n3 + n6) where n2 is the number of 2s, and so on
2023-11-26T17:55:01 < mawk> and you want to know whenevr the exponents are unique
2023-11-26T17:55:37 < mawk> so you're summing up vectors from the following set {(0; 0); (1; 0); (0; 1); (2; 0); (1; 1)}
2023-11-26T17:55:48 < mawk> and you want to know the "area" of the resulting shape
2023-11-26T17:56:08 < mawk> after having summed up n vectors from that set
2023-11-26T17:56:25 < mawk> this summing up operation is called a sumset, or a Minkowski sum
2023-11-26T17:56:55 < mawk> and if you draw a dot for each vector, in the 2D plane, you will see you have a square and a triangle below it
2023-11-26T17:57:22 < mawk> and when you sum it up, so for n = 2, you get a bigger square and a bigger triangle
2023-11-26T17:57:30 < mawk> and it's not hard to deduce the general formula from it
2023-11-26T17:57:57 < mawk> for the "summing up" operation you have to try it on paper I guess, but there's a very simple algorithm 
2023-11-26T17:59:03 < mawk> https://paste.debian.net/1299162/
2023-11-26T17:59:05 < mawk> like this
2023-11-26T18:02:00 < mawk> this is not the code, just the diagram
2023-11-26T18:02:15 < mawk> for the code you can see in the convex minkowski sum article on wikipedia
2023-11-26T18:02:27 < mawk> but you don't need any code
2023-11-26T18:03:31 < mawk> a square + a triangle is clearly (n+1)² + n(n+1)/2 just looking at it
2023-11-26T18:04:27 < mawk> which is 3/2 (n+1)n + (n+1)
2023-11-26T18:04:41 < mawk> and you sum it up between 0 and n
2023-11-26T18:05:59 < mawk> it becomes 3/2 (n+2)(n+1)n/3 + (n+2)(n+1)/2 = (n+1)²(n+2)/2
2023-11-26T18:06:04 < mawk> which is the final answer 
2023-11-26T18:06:24 < mawk> you sum it up between 0 and n to add up the 5 we left out
2023-11-26T18:06:45 < mawk> if you have k dice being 5, and n-k dice being 1, 2, 3, 4 or 6
2023-11-26T18:07:15 < mawk> there's only 1 possible product with k dice being 5, it's 5^k
2023-11-26T18:07:42 < Steffanx> ok
2023-11-26T18:07:47 < mawk> so you sum Σ 1·f(n-k) where f(k) is our 3/2 (n+1)n + (n+1)
2023-11-26T18:07:56 < mawk> giving us the result
2023-11-26T18:08:40 < Steffanx> Did you go to a sinterklaasintocht yesterday mawk  ?
2023-11-26T18:08:53 < mawk> no
2023-11-26T18:08:58 < Steffanx> awhg
2023-11-26T18:08:59 < mawk> it's too cold
2023-11-26T18:09:52 < Steffanx> its only getting colder
2023-11-26T18:11:16 < jpa-> is it below -20°C there yet?
2023-11-26T18:15:44 < Steffanx> Not yet.
2023-11-26T18:16:41 < Steffanx> I was going to give another answer, but I respect your privacy jpa- 
2023-11-26T18:29:55 < nomorekaki> wanted to dox jpa?
2023-11-26T18:38:26 < mawk> is jpa- living in Drachten too?
2023-11-26T18:38:44 < Steffanx> No. Not that
2023-11-26T18:38:58 < nomorekaki> jpa is living in winterland too
2023-11-26T18:50:05 < jbo> everybody is living in winterland
2023-11-26T18:54:50 < nomorekaki> probs lets see snow cover maps
2023-11-26T18:56:00 < Steffanx> No snow here.. but winter is coming 
2023-11-26T18:58:33 < nomorekaki> jbo-: https://weather.us/model-charts/euro/europe/snow-depth.html steff is not in winterland yet
2023-11-26T19:04:31 < nomorekaki> it would be perculiar correlation if the channel pop residences followed the snow depth map - being in the snowy side that is
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2023-11-26T22:32:38 < oz4ga> script kitties: https://www.pcgamer.com/self-described-gay-furry-hackers-breach-one-of-the-biggest-nuclear-labs-in-the-us-and-demand-it-begin-researching-irl-catgirls
2023-11-26T22:43:44 < Steffanx> 😅
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2023-11-26T23:03:35 < qyx> nomorekaki: zero snow here according to the map
2023-11-26T23:03:56 < qyx> but is snowed like 10 times today and yesterday
2023-11-26T23:04:09 < nomorekaki> did it accumulate?
2023-11-26T23:04:19 < Steffanx> That's your dandruff qyx  :P
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2023-11-26T23:35:40 < qyx> Steffanx: you are a dandruff
2023-11-26T23:37:03 < Steffanx> I love you too qyx 
2023-11-26T23:41:00 < qyx> this is a positive thought in this world full of negative ones
--- Day changed ma marras 27 2023
2023-11-27T00:06:36 < jbo> trying to get a simple timer working, always fun with CubeHAL
2023-11-27T00:11:06 < Steffanx> There are examples jbo 
2023-11-27T00:11:21 < Steffanx> Or the cube config tool
2023-11-27T00:12:23 < jbo> looking at examples ofc :)
2023-11-27T00:13:27 < Steffanx> Ok
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2023-11-27T01:29:18 < qyx> so what alternative do we have for libopencm3's startup/linker scripts and all that boilerplate?
2023-11-27T01:29:42 < jbo> when I'm lazy I borrow startup code & linked scripts from ST examples
2023-11-27T01:33:03 < qyx> and cmsis for the rest?
2023-11-27T01:33:12 < qyx> or hal of some sort
2023-11-27T01:33:38 < jbo> for lazy stuff I usually end up using either ST HAL or just going ChibiOS (GPL)
2023-11-27T01:33:48 < jbo> right now doing ST HAL
2023-11-27T01:34:09 < qyx> ll?
2023-11-27T01:34:54 < qyx> that's very unfortunate situation
2023-11-27T01:36:01 < jbo> what do you mean?
2023-11-27T01:36:27 < qyx> I don't like ST's code
2023-11-27T01:36:35 < jbo> neither do I but I only live for so long
2023-11-27T01:36:50 < qyx> on the other hand I liked locm3 but that's dead end
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2023-11-27T10:35:41 < jpa-> heh, ESP32S3 hardware design guidelines: "The crystal should be placed far from the clock pin to avoid the interference on the chip."
2023-11-27T10:36:42 < jpa-> also, i would have just put a nice TCXO there but espressif has decided not to identify XIN vs. XOUT
2023-11-27T10:37:30 < jpa-> though i guess that would also interfere with power saving
2023-11-27T11:30:54 < qyx> power saving on esp32?
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2023-11-27T13:05:03 < mawk> what is the area of the region delimited by ||x|-1| + ||y|-1| ≤ 1 ?
2023-11-27T13:08:01 < karlp> looks like maybe 1.5cm²?
2023-11-27T13:08:12 < karlp> but depends what I set my font too...
2023-11-27T13:29:43 < zyp> :)
2023-11-27T13:34:25 < specing> mawk: the region leaks out in the bottom left quadrant
2023-11-27T13:34:46 < mawk> all quadrants are the same
2023-11-27T13:34:54 < mawk> because of the |x| and |y|
2023-11-27T13:35:02 < mawk> so you just have to think about the first quadrant 
2023-11-27T13:39:32 < specing> they aren't. ||x|-1| forms a  \/\/  and the y counterpart is the same but rotated 90' clockwise.However, if you take just the first quadrant, then the area is 1/2
2023-11-27T13:50:32 < zyp> mawk, 8
2023-11-27T13:50:47 < zyp> 2 per quadrant
2023-11-27T13:51:31 < zyp> each quadrant has a square with corners at 0,1  1,0  2,1  1,2
2023-11-27T13:52:30 < mawk> yes they are specing , substituting x ← -x or y ← -y does not change the expression
2023-11-27T13:52:43 < mawk> so each quadrant has the same shape as the others
2023-11-27T13:53:06 < mawk> right zyp 
2023-11-27T13:54:08 < mawk> we have d(u, (1; 1)) ≤ 1, so we're considering a ball centered at (1; 1) with radius 1
2023-11-27T13:54:15 < mawk> using the taxicab metric 
2023-11-27T13:54:22 < mawk> so that makes a square
2023-11-27T13:54:30 < mawk> d is the distance function
2023-11-27T13:54:52 < mawk> and d(x, C) ≤ R is the equation of the ball centered at C with radius R
2023-11-27T13:56:21 < zyp> yeah, if you square the outer abs, you get a circle instead
2023-11-27T14:03:52 < specing> oh lol, I forgot to add them up.
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2023-11-27T14:19:18 < mawk> zyp and if you use a cube, you get a circle with a bit squarish edges 
2023-11-27T14:19:21 < mawk> and more and more
2023-11-27T14:19:35 < mawk> until you go to infinity and now it's a square again, just like for 1
2023-11-27T14:19:39 < mawk> but rotated 45°
2023-11-27T14:19:55 < mawk> this is call the ∞-norm, ||(x; y)||_∞
2023-11-27T14:20:11 < mawk> and it turns out that ||(x; y)||_∞ = max(|x|, |y|)
2023-11-27T14:20:21 < mawk> so it's also called the sup(remum) norm
2023-11-27T14:21:00 < mawk> lim p→∞ (|x|^p + |y|^p)^(1/p) = max(|x|, |y|)
2023-11-27T14:21:08 < mawk> it's not too hard to see why
2023-11-27T14:21:16 < mawk> factor the maximum out of the sum
2023-11-27T14:28:20 < mawk> zyp https://i.imgur.com/fJWz4he.png
2023-11-27T14:28:24 < mawk> liek dis
2023-11-27T14:30:47 < mawk> a bunch of squares and circles and squircles
2023-11-27T14:31:58 < zyp> yeah
2023-11-27T14:34:24 < mawk> a consequence of that is that the max function is just like the absolute value function but rotated
2023-11-27T14:34:35 < mawk> so we can rotate it 
2023-11-27T14:34:45 < nomorekaki> karlp: .is didn't pop?
2023-11-27T14:34:48 < mawk> maybe with (x; y) ← (x+y; x-y)
2023-11-27T14:35:17 < mawk> and then |x+y| + |x-y| = 2max(x, y)
2023-11-27T14:35:30 < mawk> pretty cool
2023-11-27T14:48:55 < karlp> nomorekaki: no, currently believed to have solidified just under the surface.
2023-11-27T14:49:19 < nomorekaki> all that shaking stopped?
2023-11-27T14:57:23 < karlp> pretty much
2023-11-27T14:58:40 < karlp> https://en.vedur.is/about-imo/news/a-seismic-swarm-started-north-of-grindavik-last-night last update from friday.
2023-11-27T14:58:41 < qyx> so what, build some stairs, some sloped roads and all good?
2023-11-27T15:02:26 < qyx> also the head of vedur stopped being active on twatter when it renamed
2023-11-27T15:02:41 < qyx> *the head of volcanic department
2023-11-27T15:06:52 < karlp> when what renamed?
2023-11-27T15:07:00 < karlp> who?
2023-11-27T15:14:04 < qyx> when the twitter was bought and renamed to x
2023-11-27T15:14:41 < qyx> many people stopped posting (at least among the people I follow)
2023-11-27T15:15:45 < qyx> kjonsdottir you once mentioned, she used to post cool content and photos of field work
2023-11-27T15:17:44 < karlp> oh right, yeah, not sure what's going on, she wasnt' on tv or radio nearly as much as last times either..
2023-11-27T15:29:57 < karlp> speaking of crystals in unexepcted locations: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005210066331.html
2023-11-27T15:30:03 < karlp> right over the rf path...
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2023-11-27T16:35:23 < Ecco> Speaking of BLE
2023-11-27T16:35:33 < Ecco> I'm looking at the refman of STM32WBA
2023-11-27T16:35:41 < Ecco> The RADIO section is like… 3 pages long
2023-11-27T16:36:41 < ventYl> bluetooth is like 95% software
2023-11-27T16:37:03 < ventYl> originally done at IBM, so pretty nasty one
2023-11-27T16:37:29 < Ecco> ok, but there's like not even a register address
2023-11-27T16:38:00 < ventYl> maybe you have to sign an NDA by your own blood to get that piece of information
2023-11-27T16:38:11 < Ecco> really?
2023-11-27T16:38:19 < zyp> no, you can't even access the radio registers
2023-11-27T16:38:19 < Ecco> (I mean, the NDA part)
2023-11-27T16:38:33 < Ecco> so… how is it supposed to work at all?
2023-11-27T16:38:51 < zyp> the radio registers are only accessible from CPU2, and CPU2 is locked and can only run signed/encrypted blobs from ST
2023-11-27T16:38:53 < Ecco> I mean, what's the interface
2023-11-27T16:39:02 < Ecco> oh, ok
2023-11-27T16:39:11 < Ecco> So there's a separate CPU core in the chip?
2023-11-27T16:39:13 < zyp> so the interface is IPC towards the radio blob, which is documented elsewhere
2023-11-27T16:39:22 < Ecco> oh, ok
2023-11-27T16:39:55 < Ecco> so wait, the second CPU runs some proprietary code, ok
2023-11-27T16:39:58 < zyp> hmm, I haven't actually looked at wba, but this is what goes from wb at least
2023-11-27T16:40:00 < Ecco> do I have to ship this code?
2023-11-27T16:40:09 < Ecco> Well, WB does document having another core IIRC
2023-11-27T16:40:12 < Ecco> WBA… not even
2023-11-27T16:40:42 < zyp> maybe it's timeshare on a single cpu
2023-11-27T16:40:43 < Ecco> https://www.st.com/en/microcontrollers-microprocessors/stm32wb-series.html
2023-11-27T16:40:54 < Ecco> Here it says "RADIO Cortex-M0+"
2023-11-27T16:41:18 < Ecco> ok, but then in practice how does it work?
2023-11-27T16:41:37 < Ecco> You're supposed to embed a binary blob in your firmware?
2023-11-27T16:41:45 < Ecco> Then load it somehow?
2023-11-27T16:42:25 < zyp> on wb, cpu2 blob is loaded through «FUS», which is a sort of bootloader running on cpu2, decrypting the blob
2023-11-27T16:42:28 < karlp> yup. there's a FUS bootloader thing, you flash it once with whatever radio firmware you want,
2023-11-27T16:42:35 < karlp> bt only, zigbee+bt, whatever.
2023-11-27T16:43:16 < karlp> pretty sure wba is just wb witih more letters, it's not meaningfully different.
2023-11-27T16:43:59 < karlp> you get bt5.4, instead 5.3, which I can't remember what the headline changes were
2023-11-27T16:44:14 < karlp> and it's a u5 inside, instead of an l4...
2023-11-27T16:44:19 < karlp> so yeah, moves to m33 as well then I guess.
2023-11-27T16:44:35 < Ecco> "STM32WBA devices are microcontrollers based on a single core (Arm®Cortex®-M33) that also use the
2023-11-27T16:44:40 < Ecco> application command interface"
2023-11-27T16:44:52 < karlp> oh lol, 5.4 is "periodic advertising with response"
2023-11-27T16:44:54 < karlp> hah
2023-11-27T16:46:04 < ventYl> bt versioning is very confusing
2023-11-27T16:46:18 < ventYl> I expected that Bt5 is like BT<previous> + BLE
2023-11-27T16:46:40 < karlp> yes and no. it's worse.
2023-11-27T16:46:50 < karlp> sometimes new bt revisions require new radios, sometimes it's just software
2023-11-27T16:47:22 < Ecco> but wait, so there's a blob to download? Where do I get it?
2023-11-27T16:47:26 < karlp> where "new radio" sometimes just means " new blob from your vendor" (who may or may not care)
2023-11-27T16:47:29 < Ecco> I haven't seen it on ST's website
2023-11-27T16:47:34 < karlp> look harder....
2023-11-27T16:47:44 < karlp> wb is a more complicated beast than just "here'
2023-11-27T16:47:45 < Ecco> :-D
2023-11-27T16:47:47 < karlp> s the headers"
2023-11-27T16:48:08 < ventYl> Ecco: I'd search for it inside cube. i bet it is there.... somewhere
2023-11-27T16:48:14 < Ecco> Well, my understanding on WBA is that there's only one core, so maybe it's just "headers + static library"?
2023-11-27T16:48:28 < Ecco> then just link the whole thing in my firmware?
2023-11-27T16:49:00 < zyp> hmm, I suspect there's still a cpu inside the radio core, they've probably just stopped advertising it so people don't think they can run their own code on it
2023-11-27T16:49:40 < karlp> there's some good training for the wb, just go through it https://wiki.st.com/stm32mcu/wiki/Connectivity:STM32WB_FUS
2023-11-27T16:49:46 < karlp> yeah, there's definitely still a radio cpu there :)
2023-11-27T16:50:30 < ventYl> the softdevice on nRF, where radio is served by stuff time-shared with the rest of the code requires quite invasive integration with the RTOS / rest of the firmware
2023-11-27T16:50:47 < ventYl> you definitely know you have the BLOB in there
2023-11-27T16:51:38 < Ecco> ok found it
2023-11-27T16:52:05 < Ecco> It's actually also on GitHub
2023-11-27T16:52:05 < Ecco> https://github.com/STMicroelectronics/STM32CubeWBA
2023-11-27T16:52:34 < Ecco> Here's a bunch of static libraries
2023-11-27T16:52:34 < Ecco> https://github.com/STMicroelectronics/STM32CubeWBA/tree/main/Middlewares/ST/STM32_WPAN/link_layer/ll_cmd_lib/lib
2023-11-27T16:52:40 < Ecco> ok, makes sense
2023-11-27T16:52:48 < Ecco> Well, I guess this could be reverse-engineered
2023-11-27T16:52:56 < Ecco> but ok, so the idea is "just use that library"
2023-11-27T16:52:57 < Ecco> fine :)
2023-11-27T16:53:08 < zyp> that's just the firmware side of the IPC layer, I believe
2023-11-27T16:53:13 < ventYl> if it is signed, then reverse engineering won't probably do much good
2023-11-27T16:53:36 < Ecco> zyp: don't you think the static lib also includes the radio CPU's firmware and routines to upload it?
2023-11-27T16:53:36 < zyp> IIRC I played around with reverse engineering parts of it for wb some years ago to figure out how it worked
2023-11-27T16:53:48 < zyp> no
2023-11-27T16:53:51 < Ecco> oh
2023-11-27T16:54:11 < Ecco> so where's the radio firmware? Pre-loaded and not updatable?
2023-11-27T16:54:21 < karlp> you use the cubeprogrammer tool to flash it.
2023-11-27T16:54:27 < zyp> it's updatable through FUS
2023-11-27T16:54:29 < karlp> you do that once per project, and don't normally need to touch it again
2023-11-27T16:54:42 < zyp> and also through BLE DFU (which uses FUS)
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2023-11-27T16:54:49 < karlp> correct..
2023-11-27T16:55:23 < zyp> AIUI you can create update packages that leverages FUS infrastructure and contains both new radio blob and your firmware
2023-11-27T16:56:02 < Ecco> what's FUS?
2023-11-27T16:56:03 < karlp> you can skip the wpan ll stuff, or most of it, if you reallllllllly want to https://github.com/karlp/l2-st-ble
2023-11-27T16:56:10 < karlp> Firmware Update Service
2023-11-27T16:56:17 < Ecco> ok I'm reading this https://wiki.st.com/stm32mcu/wiki/Connectivity:STM32WB_FUS
2023-11-27T16:56:23 < qyx> thank you very much karlp 
2023-11-27T16:56:45 < karlp> what have I done now?
2023-11-27T16:56:47 < qyx> I feared there is nobody who ever did anything with wb
2023-11-27T16:56:56 < qyx> I'll check your githubs
2023-11-27T16:57:02 < karlp> don't go far.
2023-11-27T16:57:06 < karlp> I ejected hard.
2023-11-27T16:57:19 < qyx> should I too?
2023-11-27T16:57:27 < karlp> you cant' do adc dma sampling in low power mode and ahve the radio running at the same time
2023-11-27T16:57:31 < karlp> total fail...
2023-11-27T16:57:38 < qyx> oh
2023-11-27T16:57:41 < qyx> now I remember
2023-11-27T16:57:45 < ventYl> as much noise as soviet radio?
2023-11-27T16:57:51 < karlp> ventYl: no, just not an option.
2023-11-27T16:57:57 < karlp> the lowest modes of the two ar enot compatible.
2023-11-27T16:58:16 < karlp> glory to silabs, just worked.
2023-11-27T16:58:18 < Ecco> what do you mean "ejected hard"?
2023-11-27T16:58:25 < karlp> I ejected from the project.
2023-11-27T16:58:38 < karlp> we had protos using stm32wb, but tossed it all in the bin.
2023-11-27T16:58:40 < karlp> booo st.
2023-11-27T16:58:45 < Ecco> why?
2023-11-27T16:58:52 < karlp> 14:57:27       karlp | you cant' do adc dma sampling in low power mode and ahve the radio running at the same time
2023-11-27T16:58:57 < jbo> moin
2023-11-27T16:59:08 < karlp> that was a fundamental base level requirement of what we were doing.
2023-11-27T16:59:13 < Ecco> ok
2023-11-27T16:59:19 < Ecco> So what MCU did you end up using?
2023-11-27T16:59:26 < karlp> 14:58:16       karlp | glory to silabs, just worked.
2023-11-27T16:59:30 < Ecco> ok :)
2023-11-27T16:59:37 < karlp> u gotta g3t wit the ling0 boi ;)
2023-11-27T16:59:39 < jbo> +1 for silabs stuff
2023-11-27T17:00:00 < Ecco> karlp: did you post on stackoverflow at some point regarding this issue?
2023-11-27T17:00:13 < Ecco> I think I remember reading something super similar there a few weeks ago
2023-11-27T17:00:41 < karlp> no, I don't post on SO.
2023-11-27T17:00:51 < karlp> I used to, many many many years ago.
2023-11-27T17:01:02 < karlp> bgm220s we used in the end. worked good.
2023-11-27T17:01:09 < qyx> he is the higher tier ee
2023-11-27T17:01:17 < qyx> highest
2023-11-27T17:01:24 < karlp> silabs sdk is a bit wonky though, if you want to use anything other than complexity studio all the time
2023-11-27T17:01:26 < qyx> like zyp, jpa, etc
2023-11-27T17:01:29 < karlp> fuck off 
2023-11-27T17:01:30 < qyx> and more
2023-11-27T17:01:34 < karlp> those guys get shit done
2023-11-27T17:01:40 < qyx> noone else is able to help them :>
2023-11-27T17:01:44 < karlp> I'm sitting here yelling at cmake
2023-11-27T17:01:50 < qyx> lol
2023-11-27T17:01:58 < karlp> well, yelling at cherryusb really.
2023-11-27T17:02:08 < Ecco> What do you guys think of nRF52?
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2023-11-27T17:02:28 < zyp> ha, I wish I could get shit done
2023-11-27T17:02:30 < karlp> tryin to decide to keep fighting it's chinese docs and examples that don't include abnythign to build them, or tinyusb and it's bugs, or tivaware and it's bugs.
2023-11-27T17:02:43 < zyp> Ecco, that's the main workhorse at work
2023-11-27T17:03:21 < ventYl> Ecco: the silicon is crap
2023-11-27T17:04:20 < ventYl> naively I expected that if STM32 can be made worky using locm3, nRF52 can be too. after failing to make both I2C and SPI working reliably, I abandonned that idea
2023-11-27T17:04:36 < zyp> IME nrf52 seems to be pretty good at low power, got some errata but every chip got that, flexible GPIO function mapping, but kinda few pins
2023-11-27T17:05:01 < qyx> TIL IME
2023-11-27T17:05:14 < zyp> also it has openly documented radio registers if you wanna do custom shit without blob
2023-11-27T17:06:06 < zyp> I did a toy project once where I just used the radio directly to capture packets, but at work we just use the softdevice
2023-11-27T17:06:33 < zyp> also, the aQFN packages sucks
2023-11-27T17:06:39 < ventYl> everyone has errata, but those nrf errata are plain wtf
2023-11-27T17:06:42 < jbo> my experience with nRF52: It works great. but as zyp said, it's mainly aimed at lowpower & non-fancy/few IOs
2023-11-27T17:06:53 < jbo> ventYl, have you read some of STs erratas?
2023-11-27T17:07:01 < zyp> jbo, yeah, and my boss shoehorns everything into it :p
2023-11-27T17:07:02 < Ecco> thanks for the feedback :)
2023-11-27T17:07:16 < jbo> zyp, that's what bosses do, I guess :p
2023-11-27T17:07:29 < jbo> zyp, "I know this chip, just use it" and then  he's not even the guy doing it, right?
2023-11-27T17:08:04 < ventYl> jbo: yes, H7 had some pretty nasty stuff going on, most of it fixed before I got my hands on it
2023-11-27T17:08:05 < zyp> my boss is the hardware guy, he slaps an i2c gpio expander on it and calls it a day
2023-11-27T17:08:27 < jbo> oh boy...
2023-11-27T17:08:44 < jbo> "whatever you say boss"
2023-11-27T17:08:49 < ventYl> nRF is happily making chips with crappy I2C (SPI?) which isn't able to send signle-byte frame without doing nasty hacking
2023-11-27T17:08:50 < karlp> it can't do low power analog though, you get no specs beyond "typical 1mA" 
2023-11-27T17:10:01 < jbo> alright, lets just start doing everything with propeller again 
2023-11-27T17:12:13 < Ecco> I'm reading the wiki for STM32WBA
2023-11-27T17:12:19 < Ecco> it doesn't seem to mention anything about FUS
2023-11-27T17:12:34 < Ecco> so *maybe* it's really just all contained in the static libraries?
2023-11-27T17:12:37 < Ecco> Just link them and go?
2023-11-27T17:12:57 < Ecco> (which I think seems just better to me than having to flash a separate thing)
2023-11-27T17:12:58 < zyp> it's probably preprogrammed with a usable blob
2023-11-27T17:13:18 < qyx> the difference between M4 and M33 is thatthe latter got trustzone
2023-11-27T17:13:23 < jbo> I used STM32WBA once - it was a disaster.
2023-11-27T17:13:25 < qyx> they may be using that
2023-11-27T17:13:33 < Ecco> jbo: oh really? how?
2023-11-27T17:13:35 < jbo> not as much as the STM32MP1 was a disaster but still not great
2023-11-27T17:13:44 < jbo> Ecco, the bluetooth stuff just didn't work reliably at all.
2023-11-27T17:13:53 < jbo> so I switched the design to an nRF52840 :D
2023-11-27T17:13:56 < ventYl> jbo: I wanted to say that nRF is simply as bad as others. just the area they shine in is silicon design. NXP fuck up their docs and ST has the cube
2023-11-27T17:13:59 < Ecco> ok :-D
2023-11-27T17:14:16 < jbo> ventYl, I generally agree.
2023-11-27T17:14:21 < jbo> the ST stuff has gotten out of hand IMHO
2023-11-27T17:14:38 < ventYl> which makes me sad, because it kind of obliterates my crappy RTOS effort
2023-11-27T17:21:19 < Ecco> Could the WBA's radio core run its code from RAM? Kind of like how wifi chips on PCs need to be fed a firmware by the PC and don't even have their own flash memory
2023-11-27T17:22:14 < zyp> theoretically it could, but that sounds like a silly thing to do
2023-11-27T17:23:05 < Ecco> why?
2023-11-27T17:23:23 < Ecco> It seems like it would make upgrades of the radio super easy
2023-11-27T17:23:24 < zyp> no benefits, just disadvantages
2023-11-27T17:25:31 < zyp> having code in ram means that for a low power project, you get a power/latency tradeoff wrt. standby
2023-11-27T17:26:17 < zyp> either you need to keep the ram powered while you're sleeping, or you need to load it every time you wake up
2023-11-27T17:26:42 < qyx> thats what the ram retention is for
2023-11-27T17:26:47 < qyx> no?
2023-11-27T17:26:56 < zyp> and I'm not sure it makes firmware upgrades any easier either, just less robust
2023-11-27T17:27:06 < zyp> qyx, yeah, that's the first option
2023-11-27T17:27:49 < zyp> a flash can be turned off entirely and when you turn it back on the data is still there
2023-11-27T17:28:07 < zyp> so you don't need to choose between powersave and latency, you get both
2023-11-27T17:28:36 < qyx> but you get increased latency when turning the flash off
2023-11-27T17:28:59 < zyp> not compared to what you get when you turn the ram off, and have to reload it after turning it back on
2023-11-27T17:29:14 < Ecco> interesting
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2023-11-27T17:36:31 < qyx> Ecco: https://wiki.st.com/stm32mcu/wiki/Connectivity:STM32WBA_Build_BLE_Project
2023-11-27T17:36:46 < qyx> looks like the ble stack is a static li rary/blob
2023-11-27T17:37:00 < qyx> and yhe whole thing is flashed at once without FUS
2023-11-27T17:37:09 < qyx> to 0x08000000
2023-11-27T17:38:13 < qyx> with the exception when using FOTA, when you apparently need a bootloader of some sort and the apllication is flashed to a different address
2023-11-27T17:38:40 < qyx> so the blob is probably protected by other means
2023-11-27T17:46:51 < zyp> hmm, yeah, looks fairly similar to the nrf softdevice then
2023-11-27T17:48:30 < qyx> doesn't look that bad, you could even use non-ST tools and their githubz li raries
2023-11-27T17:48:57 < qyx> the code looks sane enough too
2023-11-27T17:49:01 < ventYl> is it even protected?
2023-11-27T17:49:29 < qyx> it must be, it is dictated by the law
2023-11-27T17:49:29 < zyp> I don't see how it can be if it's just a static library
2023-11-27T17:49:44 < ventYl> qyx: nrf softdevice isn't you can run nimble in its place
2023-11-27T17:50:14 < zyp> and yeah, nrf softdevice isn't encrypted either
2023-11-27T17:50:22 < qyx> then maybe ST stopped being the world saviour and started being alibistic
2023-11-27T17:50:38 < zyp> just a hassle to debug when you interrupt it while it's at some random location inside the softdevie
2023-11-27T17:56:13 < ventYl> I guess it is simply protected by obscurity as the registers are not documented
2023-11-27T18:20:20 < zyp> that's an improvement from wb
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2023-11-27T20:52:23 < jpa-> weird problem of the day, MIC5504 is misbehaving for some reason in this circuit   https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/MIC5504_unstable.png
2023-11-27T20:52:43 < jpa-> when i replace it with XC6210B332, it gives perfectly flat 3.3V
2023-11-27T20:55:38 < jpa-> supply current is around 10mA with either chip, so within normal range
2023-11-27T21:00:36 < Ecco> Why would they care about obfuscating the radio registers?
2023-11-27T21:02:47 < jpa-> removing C4 or replacing it with 10µF changes oscillation frequency but nothing else
2023-11-27T21:05:12 < jbo> jpa-, those scope screenshots: when you say "different chip" is that with the exact same circuitry otherwise?
2023-11-27T21:05:57 < jbo> jpa-, also, same results if you disable that oscillator?
2023-11-27T21:09:52 < jpa-> yeah, i'm replacing the regulators on same PCB
2023-11-27T21:10:12 < jpa-> without oscillator MIC5504 gives stable 3.3V and the circuit draws 0mA
2023-11-27T21:10:31 < jbo> have you tried loading the circuit without the oscillator but some dummy load instead?
2023-11-27T21:10:32 < jpa-> adding resistor between +3.3V and oscillator now
2023-11-27T21:14:01 < ventYl> Ecco: they don't obfuscate them, these registers are simply not documented. Why? Every now and then someone pops up who thinks that: security through obscurity is actually a good idea.
2023-11-27T21:14:45 < ventYl> why that happens? IDK. I never understood why it is a good idea to have a datasheet under NDA and IMO that's the same class of thinking
2023-11-27T21:16:27 < jpa-> hmm, stable with U3 and U4 supply disconnected (note that Fout is not connected currently so no output load)
2023-11-27T21:17:30 < jbo> jpa-, just to cover the basics: did you get this MIC part from questionable sources?
2023-11-27T21:18:32 < jpa-> i think it is from digikey, but hard to be certain
2023-11-27T21:18:57 < jpa-> definitely nothing shadier than LCSC though
2023-11-27T21:19:38 < jbo> I mean it's an LDO. if you load it properly it should perform as per the specs
2023-11-27T21:19:59 < jbo> hence I was wondering about the osc but didn't have time to check its datasheet.
2023-11-27T21:20:17 < jbo> what's the frequency on those ripples anyway?
2023-11-27T21:21:51 < jpa-> a few kHz
2023-11-27T21:22:20 < jbo> shitty caps?
2023-11-27T21:24:42 < jpa-> replaced C4 with different 10µF one, then it oscillated at 800 Hz
2023-11-27T21:25:03 < jpa-> now it seems that disconnecting U4 is enough to make it work
2023-11-27T21:25:12 < jpa-> have to check soldering on that
2023-11-27T21:27:07 < jbo> are we going to blame aisler or jpa for this one? :D
2023-11-27T21:27:54 < mawk> A rectangular box P has distinct edge lengths a, b, and c. The sum of the lengths of all 12 edges of P is 13, the sum of the areas of all 6 faces of P is 11/2, and the volume of P is 1/2. What is the length of the longest interior diagonal connecting two vertices of P?
2023-11-27T21:28:44 < jpa-> jbo: homemade pcb
2023-11-27T21:28:56 < jpa-> soldering looks fine though
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2023-11-27T23:01:01 < upgrdman> anyone know if win10 has a way to limit how fast a laptop charges? e.g. if usb-pd charger can provide 100W, but you want the laptop to charge at 30W? i have a power bank that can deliver 45W but it gets really hot (inefficient) if you draw more than 30W :(
2023-11-27T23:07:51 < ventYl> I am not aware of anything clickely clicky generic tool, but vendors might have some specific solution in their bloatware
2023-11-27T23:08:19 < ventYl> historically, Lenovo used to have configurable charging process
2023-11-27T23:08:29 < Ecco> dang
2023-11-27T23:08:34 < Ecco> I placed an order off of LCSC
2023-11-27T23:08:38 < Ecco> I effed up
2023-11-27T23:08:42 < Ecco> and ordered some 2mm headers
2023-11-27T23:08:46 < Ecco> instead of 2.54 :-(
2023-11-27T23:10:12 < nomorekaki> as individual pieces?
2023-11-27T23:10:35 < nomorekaki> pin row?
2023-11-27T23:12:33 < Ecco> it's a row of pins
2023-11-27T23:12:37 < Ecco> actually, 2 rows
2023-11-27T23:12:57 < Ecco> https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/_Hanbo-Electronic-_C6332226.html
2023-11-27T23:13:07 < Ecco> This is what I ordered
2023-11-27T23:30:34 < jpa-> so hmm, seems like it was bad decoupling on U4
2023-11-27T23:31:40 < jpa-> the capacitor was 10 mm away from the chip; apparently that was enough to make it oscillate a bit at the edges
2023-11-27T23:32:05 < qyx> which chip it was
2023-11-27T23:32:15 < jpa-> 74LVC1G80
2023-11-27T23:32:55 < jpa-> and MIC5504 feedback circuit is somehow sensitive to the spikes - by adjusting the frequency, i was able to get MIC5504 to output values between 0V to 5V
2023-11-27T23:34:16 < jpa-> 74LVC1G80 propagation delay is min 0.9 ns (typical 2.4 ns), and hold time min 0.9 ns (typical 0.2 ns); i guess it is not the best idea to use it in clock divider configuration
2023-11-27T23:34:39 < qyx> too fast?
2023-11-27T23:35:17 < qyx> 10 mm is pretty much
2023-11-27T23:35:25 < jpa-> though i'm not too certain of my analysis here, as the spikes are too fast to catch on DS1054Z
2023-11-27T23:35:39 < jpa-> but adding a capacitor next to U4 fixes it
2023-11-27T23:35:41 < qyx> but I would expect any circuit to operate without decoupling :P
2023-11-27T23:39:05 < Ecco> jpa-: How did you debug this?
2023-11-27T23:39:23 < Ecco> oh nvm you just explained it
2023-11-27T23:39:26 < Ecco> cool :)
2023-11-27T23:39:52 < jpa-> i certainly didn't expect a LDO to shut off due to some logic chip glitching; but https://forum.microchip.com/s/topic/a5C3l000000Mev6EAC/t387351  also suggests that MIC5504 can shut down due to RF interference
2023-11-27T23:40:20 < jpa-> Ecco: disconnecting parts of circuit one at a time and seeing what affects what
2023-11-27T23:40:54 < Ecco> Also, I just got a DH0802
2023-11-27T23:41:01 < Ecco> (I eventually went for the absolute cheapest)
2023-11-27T23:41:10 < Ecco> (as I'm not even sure I'll use it all that much)
2023-11-27T23:41:27 < Ecco> It's only 70 MHz, but I think it can be unlocked to 200MHz
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2023-11-27T23:42:30 < jpa-> "The MIC5501/2/3/4 is not suitable for RF transmitter systems."  HAH! it's right there in the datasheet
2023-11-27T23:42:44 < qyx> lol
2023-11-27T23:47:01 < qyx> I stopped experimenting with LDOs and I am just always using tps706xx
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2023-11-28T00:44:48 < qyx> hm so is there a simpler way of doing isolated gate driver power supply than using a transformer?
2023-11-28T00:45:17 < qyx> two caps no worky?
2023-11-28T00:45:38 < qyx> driving them 180° out of phase and then using a standard bridge rectifier
2023-11-28T00:45:52 < qyx> they will probably cause a glitch on startup
2023-11-28T00:51:47 < catphish> doesn't one normally just use a gate driver IC?
2023-11-28T00:52:00 < catphish> i'm not sure i understand the question
2023-11-28T00:54:04 < qyx> yes but that's not an option for DC drive
2023-11-28T00:54:26 < qyx> you have to use a dedicated supply, charge pump, a photovoltaic output optocoupler, etc.
2023-11-28T00:55:05 < qyx> 99% of high side gate drivers are using a bootstrap power supply using a simple cap which needs to be periodically recharged
2023-11-28T00:56:01 < qyx> but there are applications requiring 100% duty cycle of the high side mosfet, eg. e-fuses, hot swap controllers, ideal diodes..
2023-11-28T00:56:48 < qyx> and interestingly enough, I cannot find a e-fuse doing bidirectional fusing
2023-11-28T00:57:36 < qyx> so I guess the only viable option is to use a bidir current sense amp, window comparator and a discrete gate driver + back to back mosfets
2023-11-28T00:58:16 < qyx> or maybe two fuses in parallel
2023-11-28T00:58:17 < qyx> hm
2023-11-28T01:00:28 < catphish> i'm not sure i understand, why can't you use a regular bootstrapped driver IC for DC?
2023-11-28T01:01:15 < qyx> because the driving voltage will leak over time and the mosfets stops conducting
2023-11-28T01:01:37 < catphish> oh, you mean DC as in 100% duty cycle
2023-11-28T01:01:41 < qyx> yes
2023-11-28T01:01:50 < catphish> yeah that's tricky
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2023-11-28T01:13:20 < qyx> google no worky, welcome to hell
2023-11-28T01:13:52 < qyx> ddg works
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2023-11-28T01:42:50 < karlp> vsfucking lol [E/USB] This dwc2 version does not support dma, so stop working
2023-11-28T01:43:52 < karlp> https://github.com/cherry-embedded/CherryUSB/blob/master/port/dwc2/usb_hc_dwc2.c#L474-L477
2023-11-28T01:43:55 < karlp> thanks for that.
2023-11-28T01:44:01 < karlp> I'm glad high performance is important. but what
2023-11-28T01:46:37 < zyp> nice
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2023-11-28T01:47:07 < zyp> well, explanation is easy enough
2023-11-28T01:48:56 < karlp> yeah, just... would have been nice to find that out before I went through all the rigmarole of sorting out their not-build environment.
2023-11-28T01:49:15 < karlp> so I _still_ have no idea whether their host stack is functionally bette than tinyusb...
2023-11-28T01:49:28 < karlp> and I did a bit chopjob in raw make to get here.
2023-11-28T01:49:37 < zyp> I assume they implemented this on an instance with DMA support, couldn't be assed to do write and test two transfer mechanisms, and left the assert so it'd be obvious when somebody runs into it like you just did
2023-11-28T01:49:37 < karlp> the cherry people seem very keen on "open this in MDK"
2023-11-28T01:49:57 < karlp> I think I've probably spent enough on cherry at this point.  it has some very promising parts, but it's toohard to use.
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2023-11-28T01:50:28 < karlp> they have both SConscriptand cmakelists files that I _believe_ are intended to be used by external projects, but there's just no real guidance on how to do so. and no forks on github to cheat from.
2023-11-28T01:50:50 < qyx> did you open it in mdk
2023-11-28T01:50:59 < karlp> no...
2023-11-28T01:51:03 < zyp> I wonder if I could have gotten host mode going in laks in less time than you've been playing with other stacks
2023-11-28T01:51:07 < karlp> haha
2023-11-28T01:51:14 < karlp> perhaps taht's my nerdsniping game...
2023-11-28T01:51:19 < zyp> :)
2023-11-28T01:51:37 < karlp> I really felt I was mostly fighting cmake today.
2023-11-28T01:51:40 < qyx> so the result is no host mode in stm32 at all?
2023-11-28T01:51:48 < karlp> not on the _FS_ port .
2023-11-28T01:51:52 < zyp> OTG_HS instances typically has DMA
2023-11-28T01:51:53 < karlp> the HS ports have dma, 
2023-11-28T01:52:03 < karlp> but the nucleo144 boards all wire up the FS port.
2023-11-28T01:52:17 < karlp> so... maybe on another board...
2023-11-28T01:52:32 < karlp> but its starting to be less fun at this point, chasing yet more bullshit...
2023-11-28T01:52:34 < qyx> so just a combination of misfortunes for you
2023-11-28T01:52:46 < qyx> meh
2023-11-28T01:53:24 < karlp> original f4 board is on fs too.
2023-11-28T01:53:32 < qyx> I fear the day I have to do *anything* with either USB or BLE
2023-11-28T01:53:48 < karlp> nah, usb device is relatively well tested and used to copy from...
2023-11-28T01:53:57 < karlp> ble is only complicated because there's so many options...
2023-11-28T01:54:11 < karlp> usb host sane people use linux, and it's done :)
2023-11-28T01:55:30 < zyp> if using linux can be called sane
2023-11-28T01:55:45 < zyp> I've been fighting yocto for a couple of days
2023-11-28T01:57:10 < zyp> making some updates to a project I did a couple of years ago, the yocto I originally built with is EOL and doesn't work on current debian stable
2023-11-28T01:57:12 < qyx> hey I just saw a guy on youtubez recently who does 6 figures by gardening 35-40 hours weekly
2023-11-28T01:57:23 < karlp> I have a f746 that apaprently has otg_hs...
2023-11-28T01:57:28 < karlp> fuckign ... 
2023-11-28T01:57:30 < karlp> meh
2023-11-28T01:57:39 < karlp> I want musb anyway.
2023-11-28T01:57:43 < karlp> so manymoving targets.
2023-11-28T01:58:19 < qyx> I am reconsidering my life decisions
2023-11-28T01:58:35 < karlp> people tell me tinyusb host "really does work" on imxrt, but I don't have any of those, (I have some coming apparently) and it absolutely doesn't "just work" on musb.
2023-11-28T01:58:45 < zyp> so I'm setting up a new yocto env based on the current LTS and there's so much bullshit that needs to be sorted out
2023-11-28T01:58:58 < karlp> so even if cherry "just works" n dwc2, what faith do I really have that it works on musb as well?
2023-11-28T01:59:09 < zyp> like dumb vendor layers that adds silly patches for no reason that does the opposite of what I want
2023-11-28T01:59:25 < karlp> yah, I looked at yoctoi once and it jsut seemed lke "we added layers, so you can bill more hours, not because it was useful"
2023-11-28T01:59:51 < karlp> and "we gave up trying to make people do one thing well, so we just let them splatter their layers wherever they feel like it"
2023-11-28T01:59:58 < zyp> the layered model seems nice enough until you get enough layers that just tries fighting each other
2023-11-28T02:02:28 < zyp> but yeah, I've mostly got the stuff working, just need to redo some device tree patch to enable more uarts and get it to build mender images
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2023-11-28T02:04:20 < karlp> I'm still somewhat interested in using cherry to do a gadgetzero though...
2023-11-28T02:04:27 < karlp> and I've already got most of the build sorted out....
2023-11-28T02:04:41 < karlp> that can be a "home" project one day.
2023-11-28T02:04:47  * karlp files it to the back of the list
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2023-11-28T08:26:02 < jpa-> qyx: easy and expensive way is to stick something like LTM2883 to it
2023-11-28T08:27:40 < jpa-> if logic level FETs, then ADUM5210 is a bit cheaper
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2023-11-28T09:25:28 < qyx> 8
2023-11-28T09:44:44 < jpa-> if you don't really need isolated but just high voltage difference, you can do it with 555 and a capacitor like in https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-HV_Floating_MOS_Gate_Drivers-ApplicationNotes-v01_00-EN.pdf?fileId=5546d4626c1f3dc3016c47de609d140a   page 18
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2023-11-28T11:14:06 < karlp> qyx: if  you like tps706, you'll love tps709 for the same reasons!
2023-11-28T11:15:13 < karlp> tps709 even comes in the "did you make a mistake with your sot23 regulator footprint? we've got you covered with two alternative pinouts!"
2023-11-28T11:16:08 < karlp> PSRR isn't really great on either of them though, if that matters
2023-11-28T11:16:30 < karlp> hrm, or mamybe I'm comparing the numbers to opamp psrr figures....
2023-11-28T11:16:40 < qyx> for low noise I use LP5912
2023-11-28T11:17:19 < jbo> good morning
2023-11-28T11:18:34 < qyx> tps706 is for low Iq
2023-11-28T11:19:00 < qyx> jbo: 2u2
2023-11-28T11:20:51 < jbo> <3
2023-11-28T11:21:01 < jbo> jpa-, did you manage to get your LDO under control?
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2023-11-28T11:29:56 < karlp> tps709 is just tps706 with 30V input support... for when you need that.
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2023-11-28T11:50:15 < jpa-> jbo: yes, by varying frequency i can get MIC5504 to output any voltage between 0 V and Vin
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2023-11-28T11:50:23 < jpa-> i think i'll prefer XC6210 anyway
2023-11-28T11:51:18 < qyx> ncn26010 attn zyp
2023-11-28T11:51:39 < qyx> but idk what you wanted it for
2023-11-28T11:51:56 < jbo> jpa-, so you built a VCO? :D
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2023-11-28T12:26:16 < jpa-> jbo: it only oscillates if i let it go to 0 V, which disables the oscillator and stops disturbing it etc.
2023-11-28T12:26:33 < jpa-> if i feed the oscillator from separate 3.3V source the regulator is stable but output voltage is just wrong
2023-11-28T12:26:50 < jpa-> if i add NP0 caps close to pins it's ok
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2023-11-28T14:09:29 < zyp> qyx, did I want t1s?
2023-11-28T14:10:27 < qyx> iirc yes but imnrc
2023-11-28T14:12:49 < zyp> lan8650 looks cheaper/more available
2023-11-28T14:12:59 < zyp> and also lan8670 if you don't need MAC
2023-11-28T14:16:24 < qyx> for phy only there is also one from TI
2023-11-28T14:16:29 < qyx> dp-something
2023-11-28T14:16:40 < qyx> I used that recently, awaiting pcbs
2023-11-28T14:17:25 < zyp> how does T1S termination work? does it need terminators on each end of a bus like CAN?
2023-11-28T14:18:18 < qyx> yes 49.9/49.9 AC split termination on both ends + bleeding resistor across the cap
2023-11-28T14:18:34 < qyx> (4n7/50V cap from spkit to ground)
2023-11-28T14:18:55 < qyx> and then each node has 10k/10k or so, split too
2023-11-28T14:19:45 < zyp> where does the ground come from?
2023-11-28T14:20:45 < qyx> it is ac coupled diff, swings around the ground (defined hy the 100k resistor)
2023-11-28T14:21:10 < zyp> yeah, I know, but where is it grounded?
2023-11-28T14:22:55 < zyp> also, COTS SPE cables when?
2023-11-28T14:26:07 < qyx> I don'tfollow, check https://bin.jvnv.net/file/KVAUM/Screenshot_2023-11-28-13-25-27-389.jpeg
2023-11-28T14:26:24 < qyx> idk I am still waiting for LC connectors
2023-11-28T14:26:46 < qyx> for now I settled on M12 3 pin, A coded
2023-11-28T14:27:38 < zyp> hmm, could do 4-pin to include power
2023-11-28T14:28:38 < qyx> it supports podl
2023-11-28T14:28:55 < qyx> you can do it without negotiation
2023-11-28T14:28:57 < qyx> :x
2023-11-28T14:29:14 < qyx> I plan to
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2023-11-28T15:06:14 < Ecco> I'd like to buy some USB-C cables
2023-11-28T15:06:39 < Ecco> I know those can be pretty hard to "get right"
2023-11-28T15:06:47 < Ecco> do you have any recommendation for a brand?
2023-11-28T15:07:54 < jadew> any recognizable brand that claims to support the USB spec you're after.
2023-11-28T15:09:40 < zyp> Ecco, what kind?
2023-11-28T15:10:22 < Ecco> Well, that's a good question :-D
2023-11-28T15:10:32 < zyp> for usb2 A-C and C-C, ikea has some nice and cheap ones
2023-11-28T15:10:32 < Ecco> I don't even know the kinds :-D
2023-11-28T15:10:45 < Ecco> Yeah, USB-C to USB-C
2023-11-28T15:10:45 < Ecco> Ikea
2023-11-28T15:10:47 < Ecco> ok cool
2023-11-28T15:10:51 < Ecco> I need to place an order with them anyway
2023-11-28T15:10:55 < zyp> well, there's A-C and C-C and both come in usb2 and usb3 flavors
2023-11-28T15:10:57 < karlp> for c-c, do you want just usb-2? or do you want usb3?
2023-11-28T15:11:18 < Ecco> https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/sittbrunn-usb-c-to-usb-c-blue-30546650/
2023-11-28T15:11:24 < karlp> because you'll see "100W" usb-c cables that are usb2 only, but fat conductors, 
2023-11-28T15:11:36 < zyp> Ecco, yes, that's the one
2023-11-28T15:11:38 < karlp> and you need to look for the "4k video" ones if you want actual usb3 shits normally.
2023-11-28T15:11:45 < Ecco> ok cool
2023-11-28T15:11:57 < Ecco> isn't there some kind of BS where cables are supposed to haev a chip in them too?
2023-11-28T15:12:21 < qyx> usb3-bs?
2023-11-28T15:12:33 < zyp> yes, cables capable of carrying >3A needs to have an e-marker chip inside
2023-11-28T15:12:35 < karlp> emarkers are only required for 100W or somethign
2023-11-28T15:12:49 < karlp> ok, not quite 100.
2023-11-28T15:12:51 < Ecco> The Ikea cable doesn't really say what features it has
2023-11-28T15:12:53 < zyp> unmarked cables can do 20V 3A, i.e. 60W
2023-11-28T15:12:59 < Ecco> ok
2023-11-28T15:13:03 < karlp> tis' >3, not >= 3. right. that's where I was misisng it.
2023-11-28T15:13:06 < karlp> 3A are the normal ones.
2023-11-28T15:13:09 < zyp> it's a plain unmarked cable
2023-11-28T15:13:14 < karlp> ikea says "Supports data transmissions up to 480 Mbps." which is "usb2"
2023-11-28T15:13:34 < karlp> 5/10 gbps are usb3[.1|2] stuff.
2023-11-28T15:13:36 < Ecco> oh, I didn't see that
2023-11-28T15:13:47 < karlp> yeah, you have to "product details" then "good to know"
2023-11-28T15:14:52 < karlp> (also, note that while usbc-2- cables match up with common usbc-2 pcb sockets, the pcb sokets will all indicate "SBU" which the cables most defintely won't have.
2023-11-28T15:14:58 < karlp> so don't try and get tricky and use those extra pins....
2023-11-28T15:15:13 < karlp> "ask me  how I know!" (tm)
2023-11-28T15:15:22 < qyx> I was about
2023-11-28T15:15:27 < Ecco> Oh yeah, this I'm a bit familiary with
2023-11-28T15:15:34 < qyx> those are for serial?
2023-11-28T15:15:37 < zyp> audio
2023-11-28T15:15:41 < qyx> or any arbitrary data?
2023-11-28T15:15:42 < Ecco> I mean, I would assume most cables not to have wires for the sideband pins
2023-11-28T15:15:46 < karlp> they're for whatever you want.
2023-11-28T15:15:48 < Ecco> oh no
2023-11-28T15:15:53 < Ecco> sbu is for whatever you'd like
2023-11-28T15:15:53 < karlp> usbc-3 ones have them.
2023-11-28T15:16:02 < Ecco> I considered using them for an UART at some point
2023-11-28T15:16:03 < zyp> Ecco, there's two standard kinds of C-C cables, usb2 and full featured
2023-11-28T15:16:05 < karlp> usb-c dp alt mode uses it for i2c
2023-11-28T15:16:11 < zyp> no, aux
2023-11-28T15:16:25 < zyp> IIRC
2023-11-28T15:16:26 < Ecco> zyp: oh ok makes sense
2023-11-28T15:16:28  * karlp shrugs
2023-11-28T15:16:37 < karlp> doens't matter, it's totally up to the implementers what sbu is for.
2023-11-28T15:16:42 < zyp> yeah
2023-11-28T15:16:54 < Ecco> aren't you supposed to like enumerate the device before doing anything with it?
2023-11-28T15:16:59 < karlp> lol
2023-11-28T15:17:10 < karlp> supposed to, and consumer electronics doesn't always go hand in hand.
2023-11-28T15:17:13 < zyp> the usb2 sockets have them partly because they're useful for audio accessory and partly just to be symmetric (because they're opposing CC)
2023-11-28T15:17:21 < Ecco> I ended up not using the UART-on-SBU pin because I was afraid it would fry the device if plugged into some weird host
2023-11-28T15:17:50 < karlp> you also would have found that it only worked with usbc-3 full featured cables
2023-11-28T15:17:52 < zyp> the usb-c standard specs what levels you're allowed to have on pins before negotiation
2023-11-28T15:18:03 < karlp> pretty sure it just skips that for sbu though :)
2023-11-28T15:18:18 < karlp> don't remember exactly.
2023-11-28T15:18:22 < karlp> doesn't matter anymore!
2023-11-28T15:18:38 < karlp> project is dead, lives on in memories and 10 yellow pcbs only
2023-11-28T15:20:21 < qyx> related, why jlc started charging enormous amounts for different colours
2023-11-28T15:20:49 < qyx> they were usually free maybe except yellow and purple
2023-11-28T15:21:06 < qyx> blue and rede definitely were free
2023-11-28T15:21:58 < Ecco> https://www.theregister.com/2023/11/28/microsoft_opens_sources_threadx/
2023-11-28T15:22:27 < zyp> karlp, page 354: https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/USB%20Type-C%20Spec%20R2.0%20-%20August%202019.pdf
2023-11-28T15:22:48 < zyp> TL;DR: safe state is defined as max 1.5V on all IO
2023-11-28T15:22:50 < Ecco> qyx: it seems not to change the price of 2 layers PCBs
2023-11-28T15:22:55 < Ecco> but it does for 4 indeed
2023-11-28T15:23:36 < Ecco> How would you guys hand-solder a QFN chip?
2023-11-28T15:23:53 < Ecco> Put solder on footprint with iron, then heat up with hot air station?
2023-11-28T15:23:59 < qyx> pre-tin, apply a lot of tacky flux hot air
2023-11-28T15:24:00 < jadew> Ecco, apply paste, put it there, hot iron
2023-11-28T15:24:12 < jadew> or what qyx said if you don't have paste
2023-11-28T15:24:31 < Ecco> pre-tin the footprint or the chip?
2023-11-28T15:24:38 < qyx> footprint of course
2023-11-28T15:24:38 < Ecco> well, I do have paste, but I don't have a stencil
2023-11-28T15:25:12 < Ecco> I've used the paste with a toothpick as a shovel
2023-11-28T15:25:15 < Ecco> trying to put the right amount
2023-11-28T15:25:18 < Ecco> it's… hard
2023-11-28T15:25:34 < jadew> Nah, what qyx said will work great.
2023-11-28T15:25:38 < Ecco> ok :)
2023-11-28T15:25:46 < Ecco> do you guys usually get paste and a stencil?
2023-11-28T15:25:56 < zyp> I'd use a preheater, pre-tin with paste and just plop the part on
2023-11-28T15:25:59 < qyx> and dependig on the amount of sokder you put in the middle you may have to redo the perimeter with an iron
2023-11-28T15:26:03 < jadew> You're basically making balls first, then you put the chip on top and melt the balls.
2023-11-28T15:26:14 < Ecco> yeah
2023-11-28T15:26:18 < Ecco> Also, I've never done BGA
2023-11-28T15:26:37 < Ecco> but I'm considering doing a thing where I'd need to take a BGA chip off and put it back on
2023-11-28T15:26:42 < Ecco> so I'd need to "reball" it
2023-11-28T15:26:44 < qyx> if there is not enough solder on the pad, the chip will not aligh properly
2023-11-28T15:26:48 < jadew> Yes, I always get stencils these days, can't be arsed with manually putting on solder.
2023-11-28T15:26:48 < Ecco> I've seen multiple options
2023-11-28T15:26:55 < qyx> if too much, it wikk not seat properly
2023-11-28T15:27:18 < qyx> fuk android keyboard
2023-11-28T15:27:23 < jadew> yes, and you can usually just press it down, and extra solder will come out
2023-11-28T15:27:28 < qyx> yeah
2023-11-28T15:27:38 < Ecco> 1/ use BGA stencil + paste, then heat up chip 2/ Use pre-made balls and position them with stencil and heat 3/ Use a soldering iron and drag-solder on chip to try and leave even solder balls
2023-11-28T15:27:38 < zyp> I've reballed bga, those jars of balls are just bullshit
2023-11-28T15:27:53 < Ecco> Yeah, so that's option 2 :-D
2023-11-28T15:28:13 < Ecco> what would you recommend zyp? Option 1?
2023-11-28T15:28:29 < zyp> that's what I'm intending to try next time I need to rework bga
2023-11-28T15:28:33 < Ecco> (seems the easiest but then I'd need to get a BGA stencil. Those aren't super expensive tho)
2023-11-28T15:28:37 < Ecco> ok!
2023-11-28T15:28:49 < Ecco> thanks for the tips guys
2023-11-28T15:28:49 < zyp> I'll just use the same stencil from the reballing kit
2023-11-28T15:29:02 < qyx> I have bga stencils but I reballed just by dragging the iron over
2023-11-28T15:29:08 < Ecco> oh really?
2023-11-28T15:29:14 < Ecco> so option 3 works?
2023-11-28T15:29:19 < qyx> "reballed"
2023-11-28T15:29:25 < Ecco> :-D
2023-11-28T15:29:34 < jadew> I've done the same thing in the past.
2023-11-28T15:29:56 < jadew> But on small parts, so take that into account too.
2023-11-28T15:30:08 < qyx> 16x16 max here
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2023-11-28T15:39:15 < nomorekaki> Steffanx: does housing crisis pump your house?
2023-11-28T15:40:03 < Steffanx> If I had one
2023-11-28T15:40:34 < nomorekaki> ah it's rental
2023-11-28T15:41:52 < jadew> There's a housing crisis?
2023-11-28T15:45:47 < nomorekaki> in dutchland at least
2023-11-28T15:50:41 < nomorekaki> apparently one of the worlds least flexible housing supply
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2023-11-28T16:08:29 < qyx> TIL Jon Fosse has Slovakian wife
2023-11-28T16:08:40 < qyx> she is maybe 38, he is .. 64?
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2023-11-28T16:18:27 < jbo> I have to look for a new apartment at the moment and I am making zero progress on it
2023-11-28T16:18:29 < jbo> fucking hell
2023-11-28T16:32:17 < qyx> rent a sheep shed
2023-11-28T16:33:29 < qyx> steffan has some https://www.archdaily.com/959149/sheep-shed-warc
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2023-11-28T16:37:24 < mawk> come live in delft jbo 
2023-11-28T16:37:28 < mawk> we have canals
2023-11-28T16:37:31 < mawk> and oliebollen
2023-11-28T16:38:20 < jbo> and a soon to be ultra right wing government
2023-11-28T16:38:30 < jbo> -> I am a foreigner
2023-11-28T16:39:26 < mawk> are you white? then it's fine
2023-11-28T16:39:37 < mawk> you can marry me to become dutch
2023-11-28T16:40:06 < jbo> aren't you french? then we'll have twice the foreigner stamp
2023-11-28T16:41:11 < mawk> I'm also dutch
2023-11-28T16:41:17 < mawk> and luxembourgisch
2023-11-28T16:45:32 < qyx> I forgot the shortage is over and I may revert to using lmr36006 for all fancy things
2023-11-28T16:45:55 < qyx> and lmr36015
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2023-11-28T17:40:01 < qyx> this is ridiculous, mouser just sent me a packages with all labels in slovak
2023-11-28T17:40:07 < qyx> -s
2023-11-28T17:40:22 < qyx> invoice is dual language too
2023-11-28T17:40:27 < qyx> never happened in the past
2023-11-28T17:43:16 < Steffanx> Need more rooms or what jbo :P
2023-11-28T17:43:23 < Steffanx> Expanding?
2023-11-28T17:43:46 < Steffanx> A mini-jbo 😱😱😱
2023-11-28T17:45:02 < jbo> no, the opposite actually
2023-11-28T17:45:07 < jbo> I am trying to get out of business crap
2023-11-28T17:45:40 < Steffanx> Uh what?
2023-11-28T17:48:26 < jbo> what is unclear?
2023-11-28T17:49:21 < Steffanx> Just surprised.
2023-11-28T17:49:54 < Steffanx> Unless I miss interpreted what you said.
2023-11-28T17:50:43 < Steffanx> Getting the crap out of business or getting you out of the business (crap)
2023-11-28T17:50:50 < jbo> the latter :p
2023-11-28T17:51:29 < zyp> what has that to do with the apartment?
2023-11-28T17:53:49 < jbo> I want to scale down and go back into nerd mode
2023-11-28T17:53:54 < jbo> at least partially
2023-11-28T17:54:34 < Steffanx> Self employed nerd mode that is? Or jobless nerd mode?
2023-11-28T17:55:00 < Steffanx> I wouldn't mind doing that latter either 😅
2023-11-28T17:56:28 < jbo> dunno, right now stuff just needs to change a little bit. not sure when, not sure how, not sure how much.
2023-11-28T17:56:52 < jbo> (it sounds way more dramatic than it is)
2023-11-28T17:58:10 < Steffanx> Soon I'll get to call your Ms. jbo. That would be quite the change.
2023-11-28T18:03:08 < qyx> jbo: as in you need a girlfriend sabbatical?
2023-11-28T18:03:29 < jbo> I think I need more of a life sabbatical
2023-11-28T18:04:36 < Steffanx> I'll join you 😅
2023-11-28T18:05:46 < jbo> sounds good!
2023-11-28T18:06:12 < mawk> are you all depressed or something 
2023-11-28T18:06:23 < mawk> just do cocaine and bang hookers
2023-11-28T18:06:26 < mawk> like everyone else
2023-11-28T18:07:29 < jbo> that sounds expensive
2023-11-28T18:14:44 < jbo> meeting time o/
2023-11-28T18:16:11 < qyx> just got the first batch of metral connectors zyp
2023-11-28T18:16:17 < qyx> they are super tiny
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2023-11-28T19:09:26 < Steffanx> I blame your math problems mawk. They are very depressing 
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2023-11-28T23:38:36 < qyx> Ecco: you lied, basic leadfree hasl red is more than 17 eur
2023-11-28T23:39:21 < qyx> it is the same price for leaded only, but we are not living in leaded china, I didn't even consider it :p
2023-11-28T23:40:11 < jadew> I like the cheapest color the best.
2023-11-28T23:40:20 < qyx> green, blue and black are cheap
2023-11-28T23:40:30 < jadew> Black sucks...
2023-11-28T23:40:37 -!- ferdna [~ferdna@user/ferdna] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
2023-11-28T23:40:50 < jadew> It looks neat, but you can't see the traces very well.
2023-11-28T23:41:05 < qyx> I wanted red for a traffic cone for the kid, I am not gonna pay 100e incl shipping for a bit of joy
2023-11-28T23:41:41 < qyx> I guess green will do and I will paint it orange later
2023-11-28T23:42:14 < jadew> Add a note: "No solder mask please, I will add my own."
2023-11-28T23:42:21 < qyx> lol
2023-11-28T23:45:20 < qyx> now I need some super efficient RGB LEDs
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2023-11-28T23:46:17 < qyx> which I can power off a cr2032 or cr2450
2023-11-28T23:53:51 < fenugrec> jadew I had something to ask you, let me think
2023-11-28T23:54:14 < fenugrec> yes - prescalers, I understand you make / made some for PM668x counters ?
--- Day changed ke marras 29 2023
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2023-11-29T00:15:29 < jadew> fenugrec, yes I used to
2023-11-29T00:15:32 < jadew> Why do you ask?
2023-11-29T00:15:46 < fenugrec> may be interested in one
2023-11-29T00:16:14 < jadew> I'm not sure if I have any left, but I'll check.
2023-11-29T00:16:40 < jadew> I stopped making them last year. If I have anything left is probably because they were unfinished or something.
2023-11-29T00:17:00 < fenugrec> ah. No more batches planned ? 
2023-11-29T00:17:47 < jadew> Nah, it's too much of a niche, and there's a lot of work for each board. 
2023-11-29T00:18:30 < fenugrec> interesting. I think there's a china ebay seller making some but the design doesn't look as nice
2023-11-29T00:22:16 < jadew> I just checked, you might be in luck, but I'm not sure.
2023-11-29T00:22:43 < fenugrec> or heck, just a blank PCB, if the parts are still obtainium
2023-11-29T00:23:42 < jadew> I have a couple of unfinished ones - they're missing a chip, so I'll have to see if I have it available now.
2023-11-29T00:24:01 < jadew> The production doesn't end after you've assembled it :)
2023-11-29T00:24:38 < jadew> It needs to be thoroughly tested, otherwise it could just seem like it's working.
2023-11-29T00:25:06 < fenugrec> I was wondering, if this is all regular FR4, if the hgiher-freq units need some customizing to get a decent input match
2023-11-29T00:25:12 < jadew> And yes, the chinese ones are not particularly great, many times it's just a prescaler, and no input protection.
2023-11-29T00:26:15 < jadew> The 12 GHz ones always do, the 10 GHz ones might get through without any touchups.
2023-11-29T00:27:52 < jadew> The 8 GHz ones sometimes fail QA because they don't work that well in the high range.
2023-11-29T00:28:47 < jadew> Anyway, ping me again this weekend, in case I forget. I will take a better look at what exactly is the problem and if everything is fine, it's yours at the cost of shipping.
2023-11-29T00:29:19 < fenugrec> sure, thanks for checking ! sounds great, my world doesn't extend to 8G anyway
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2023-11-29T00:30:17 < jadew> Maybe it will :) but fingers crossed. It's the only one I have left and if I mess it up, the next two in line are 3 GHz.
2023-11-29T00:34:06 < fenugrec> do they have the same prescale ratio ? original 3G prescaler has 1:16 IIRC
2023-11-29T00:35:40 < jadew> I don't remember TBH... definitely not 1:16. Maybe 1:64 for the 3 GHz ones. Let me check.
2023-11-29T00:35:55 < jadew> More like 128 I think.
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2023-11-29T00:39:52 < jadew> I don't even have kicad installed anymore. For the 8 GHz one I'm pretty sure it's 256. Not sure what it's like for the 3 GHz one...
2023-11-29T00:40:02 < fenugrec> no worries
2023-11-29T00:40:12 < fenugrec> no kicad though... shame
2023-11-29T00:40:47 < jadew> Yeah, I haven't done any electronics in at least 6 months.
2023-11-29T00:41:36 < jadew> Been fully employed for about as much, which takes up a lot of time.
2023-11-29T00:41:52 < fenugrec> hehe yeah that's what jobs do : ))
2023-11-29T00:44:35 < jadew> I might even have a 10 or 12 GHz prototype for the flukes, but it's not with the other ones... That one had the redesigned input protection which was able to take half a watt.
2023-11-29T00:45:15 < jadew> The 8 GHz boards were designed before I had the ability to push out that much power at that frequency.
2023-11-29T00:45:45 < fenugrec> nice
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2023-11-29T00:47:59 < jadew> Oh wait...
2023-11-29T00:48:04 < jadew> I can't test them.
2023-11-29T00:48:06 < jadew> :(
2023-11-29T00:48:21 < jadew> I mean, I can, but not right now...
2023-11-29T00:48:38 < jadew> I removed my GPIB card from my PC to make room for something else.
2023-11-29T00:49:03 < fenugrec> what, no USB-GPIB ?
2023-11-29T00:49:35 < jadew> No, I figured PCI-GPIB would create less clutter
2023-11-29T00:50:34 < fenugrec> I don't gpib often, I just leave an end of the gpib cable not too far and pull out a usb-gpib when needed
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2023-11-29T00:51:11 < jadew> I always had it mounted, but I had to remove it when I installed a second video card that took out two spaces.
2023-11-29T00:55:04 < jadew> I'll see what the situation is with the boards. If it appears to work, I'll remove my audio card and should still be able to test it.
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2023-11-29T01:11:31 < Ecco> So, I just soldered a new board
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2023-11-29T01:11:44 < Ecco> and of course SWD doesn't work
2023-11-29T01:11:56 < fenugrec> jadew perfect, thanks. No rush either way
2023-11-29T01:12:02 < Ecco> What is the minimum requirement to be able to "see" an STM32 with an ST-Link?
2023-11-29T01:12:08 < Ecco> in terms of hardware I mean
2023-11-29T01:12:28 < Ecco> I guess VDD + SWDCLK + SWDIO
2023-11-29T01:12:37 < Ecco> is any capacitor needed at all? Is VDDA needed?
2023-11-29T01:14:38 < fenugrec> gnd + reset
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2023-11-29T01:15:44 < qyx> Ecco: vdda definitely needed
2023-11-29T01:15:47 < Ecco> oh ok
2023-11-29T01:15:48 < qyx> swd no worky without
2023-11-29T01:15:56 < Ecco> Why tho?
2023-11-29T01:16:04 < qyx> POR and stuff
2023-11-29T01:16:21 < fenugrec> iirc some stm32 requires vdda to be >= vdd 
2023-11-29T01:16:39 < Ecco> oh ok
2023-11-29T01:16:56 < qyx> fenugrec: generally not
2023-11-29T01:17:07 < Ecco> VDDRF/VDDRFPA should not be needed just for SWD, right?
2023-11-29T01:17:08 < qyx> I mean, not for basic work
2023-11-29T01:17:33 < qyx> but some peripherals needed VDDA greater than eg. 2.4 V or so
2023-11-29T01:17:45 < qyx> comparators, opamps, some ADCs
2023-11-29T01:18:10 < fenugrec> qyx you may be right, but F0 I thought it did have that requirement - just checked, "Must have a potential equa to or higher than VDD"
2023-11-29T01:18:33 < fenugrec> (F042 here)
2023-11-29T01:18:35 < qyx> oh oh higher or equal, yeah, equal works
2023-11-29T01:18:44 < qyx> I read it as higher
2023-11-29T01:19:04 < fenugrec> right - hence the ">="  ; )
2023-11-29T01:20:49 < Ecco> damn, still no worky :(
2023-11-29T01:20:58 < Ecco> VDD and VDDA both seem ok
2023-11-29T01:21:08 < Ecco> I just looked at the traces of SWDCLK and SWDIO again
2023-11-29T01:21:14 < Ecco> Hmm, let me check the pinout
2023-11-29T01:21:16 < Ecco> Maybe I effed up
2023-11-29T01:21:54 < Ecco> Do you guys have a sample STDC14 schematics/PCB I could look at?
2023-11-29T01:22:24 < fenugrec> look at st's devboards maybe?
2023-11-29T01:22:35 < qyx> stdc works the same as the standard 10 pin one
2023-11-29T01:22:40 < qyx> when plugged in the middle
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2023-11-29T01:23:47 < Ecco> Yes indeed
2023-11-29T01:24:04 < qyx> Ecco: generally you need to conned vdd, vdda, a vcap if there is one, nrst cap to ground, at least a single decoupling cap
2023-11-29T01:24:30 < Ecco> thanks qyx
2023-11-29T01:24:43 < Ecco> I soldered all decouplings so one *has* to be working
2023-11-29T01:24:51 < Ecco> nrst cap to gnd this I most likely don't have
2023-11-29T01:25:03 < Ecco> https://i.imgur.com/hmmmzRq.png Here's my STDC14 footprint on the PCB
2023-11-29T01:25:43 < Ecco> So for the standard 10 pin, that would mean the top-left corner has pin SWDIO followed by SWCLK
2023-11-29T01:25:45 < qyx> I don't see enough grounds
2023-11-29T01:26:28 < Ecco> NVM, I *do* have a ground cap on NRST
2023-11-29T01:26:36 < qyx> 11 is gnd detect
2023-11-29T01:26:44 < qyx> your programmer may fail to see the target
2023-11-29T01:26:46 < Ecco> correct
2023-11-29T01:26:47 < qyx> but I doubt so
2023-11-29T01:26:55 < Ecco> I've read a whole page about GND-detect
2023-11-29T01:27:03 < Ecco> apparently, even ARM and ST disagree on how it should be wired
2023-11-29T01:28:00 < Ecco> https://www.reddit.com/r/embedded/comments/nji1yy/how_do_i_use_swdjtag_ground_detect/
2023-11-29T01:28:02 < qyx> what chip is that
2023-11-29T01:28:06 < Ecco> WBA
2023-11-29T01:30:30 < karlp> meh, uyeahm, leadfree hasl is green or pay now :| boooo
2023-11-29T01:31:03 < karlp> yeah, wow, red is crazy expsneive
2023-11-29T01:31:51 < Ecco> at JLC? I mean, that's kind of lame
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2023-11-29T01:32:11 < Ecco> Maybe it lets them save some money by funneling more boards to the green productionline?
2023-11-29T01:32:14 < Ecco> Or it's just a money grab…
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2023-11-29T01:32:36 < Ecco> (I don't know enough about PCB manufacturing to be able to tell)
2023-11-29T01:33:02 < Ecco> I'm measuring 0.9V around VCAP
2023-11-29T01:33:14 < Ecco> Is that normal? Does it mean the MCU is running at all?
2023-11-29T01:35:04 < qyx> it is about right
2023-11-29T01:35:13 < qyx> it should be listed in the DS
2023-11-29T01:35:21 < Ecco> oh ok
2023-11-29T01:36:32 < Ecco> "
2023-11-29T01:36:33 < Ecco> • Range 2 (VCORE = 0.9 V) with CPU and peripherals running at up to 16 MHz"
2023-11-29T01:36:34 < Ecco> Indeed
2023-11-29T01:37:03 < Ecco> According to my DMM it's not a very accurate 0.9V tho
2023-11-29T01:37:09 < Ecco> I would have expected something super precise
2023-11-29T01:37:28 < Ecco> (DMM says 0.9107V)
2023-11-29T01:37:52 < Ecco> ok, so if VCAP has 0.9V, it means the MCU is at least powered, right?
2023-11-29T01:39:53 < qyx> yeah
2023-11-29T01:40:52 < Ecco> cool
2023-11-29T01:42:50 < Ecco> FWIW, pin 9 is left floating on the Nucleo board I'm looking at
2023-11-29T01:44:24 < qyx> if you have the uart exposed, can you communicate with the system bootloader?
2023-11-29T01:44:43 < qyx> if the mcu is new and empty, it should go into the bootloader regardless of boot0/1 straps
2023-11-29T01:44:59 < Ecco> hmm, smart
2023-11-29T01:45:04 < Ecco> I do have the UART exposed
2023-11-29T01:45:18 < Ecco> it's actually wired to the STlink's UART
2023-11-29T01:45:23 < Ecco> Thanks for the idea
2023-11-29T01:45:37 < qyx> an2606 and check the exact pins, I don$t remember
2023-11-29T01:45:49 < qyx> also check the crystal requirements
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2023-11-29T01:56:42 < fenugrec> you're not doing anything silly with the swd/swc pins like driving them from somewhere else as gpio
2023-11-29T02:36:25 < Ecco> well *I* am certainly not doing anything since this is a brand new unflashed chip
2023-11-29T02:37:25 < Ecco> Ah crap, I routed LPUART1 and the bootloader only listens to UART1/2
2023-11-29T02:53:32 < Ecco> WTF BBQ
2023-11-29T02:53:33 < Ecco> it worked
2023-11-29T02:53:45 < Ecco> I just used a different software (STM32CubeProg)
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2023-11-29T10:35:51 < jerkey> e
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2023-11-29T11:37:00 < ventYl> karlp: hah, I've been kind-of deceived by Solstafir :D I wanted to buy the LP which contained the last song they played on the concert, which apparently was Fjara, but they sold me the other one
2023-11-29T11:41:54 < karlp> they've got a few.
2023-11-29T11:42:00 < karlp> I've not heard the new(er) stuff.
2023-11-29T11:42:02 < karlp> what did you get instead?
2023-11-29T11:42:18 < karlp> svartir sandur is good, that's the one with Fjara on it. 
2023-11-29T11:42:25 < karlp> I really like Ótta as well, the one after.
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2023-11-29T11:48:41 < ventYl> i've got Ko:ld
2023-11-29T11:50:17 < karlp> oh, she destroys again is great. iirc.
2023-11-29T11:50:23 < karlp> maybe I need to listen to solstafir today...
2023-11-29T11:50:29 < karlp> all caught up on hör anyway.
2023-11-29T11:50:30 < ventYl> they've been selling kold and svantir sandar on that concert
2023-11-29T11:51:11 < ventYl> I wasn't that much amused after listening it only once, but that may change
2023-11-29T11:52:01 < karlp> oh dear :|
2023-11-29T11:52:13 < ventYl> I need to restore my turntable stack so I can listen it again
2023-11-29T11:52:14 < karlp> did you buy this form them at the show? or order it online and got sent the wrong thing?
2023-11-29T11:52:35 < karlp> only thing worse than records is fucking cassetts
2023-11-29T11:53:14 < karlp> I want to shoot whoever thought cassettes should make a trnedy comeback
2023-11-29T11:53:15 < ventYl> I went to buy it straight after they finished the concert.
2023-11-29T11:54:31 < ventYl> yet while my memory sucks at remembering names even in local languages, not even in Icelandic I asked them to sell me the album which contains the last song the band just played
2023-11-29T11:55:51 < karlp> yar, good luck with that :)
2023-11-29T11:57:22 < ventYl> TBH I didn't know Solstafir exists two months ago :)
2023-11-29T12:30:43 < karlp> I have a feeeling that macros in cmake are not actually a great way of having common snippets, but I'm not enough of a cmake person to really know.
2023-11-29T12:31:08 < karlp> but I do feel that make running cmake, running cmake to run kconfiglib just... cant' be how god intended it to be.
2023-11-29T12:32:41 < ventYl> in ~15 years of using CMake I've had like 1 (one) legitimate use of macro
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2023-11-29T12:35:18 < karlp> good to know.
2023-11-29T12:35:24 < karlp> it hasna't been feeling right :)
2023-11-29T12:36:59 < karlp> I have a macro that seems to replace the project(9 with a "our_project()" and then that macro calls like 20 other macros to add stuff.
2023-11-29T12:37:41 < karlp> need to ignore some of these things and just work on one or three things at a time though
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2023-11-29T12:40:31 < karlp> I'm curious what the motivation was for the make->cmake-> loop though.
2023-11-29T12:40:49 < karlp> and I was under the impression that ninja worked on windows, and was indeed preferred on windows compared to unix makefiles..
2023-11-29T12:49:54 < ventYl> there are basically two differences between ninja and make on windows: 1) ninja is some 15% faster, 2) make cannot call msvc (irrelevant if you don't use it)
2023-11-29T12:51:13 < ventYl> CMake macros are just CMake functions which don't create sub-context, so you can use them to modify outer variables. you don't need to do that often, that's why macros have very little use
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2023-11-29T12:51:41 < ventYl> in general, there should not need to write polymorphic and/or self-modifying CMake buildsystems
2023-11-29T12:51:47 < ventYl> ++be
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2023-11-29T12:56:52 < ventYl> and there are basically just two legitimate cases of CMake calling CMake: 1) your CMake-based project has source-level 3rd party which you want to build 2) you don't have any other means to run scripts, so you use CMake in script execution mode
2023-11-29T12:57:11 < ventYl> the latter one is a "last resort scenario" though
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2023-11-29T13:58:27 < jpa-> heh, gmail is trying to force me to upgrade old kicad project by blocking .lib files
2023-11-29T14:02:02 < karlp> yeah, I've just re-listened to köld, and yeah, I think ótta and svartir sandar are better IMO, 
2023-11-29T14:02:10 < karlp> but she destroys again is still a great track
2023-11-29T14:16:10 < karlp> ventYl: where did you see them again? just thumbing through: https://www.setlist.fm/search?page=2&query=artist:%28S%C3%B3lstafir%29+date:%5B2023-01-01+TO+2023-12-31%5D
2023-11-29T14:17:41 < ventYl> karlp: they are touring with Amorphis on their tour
2023-11-29T14:18:15 < ventYl> karlp: Colloseum Club, the Nov 9th entry
2023-11-29T14:18:38 < karlp> awww empty setlist :)
2023-11-29T14:20:14 < ventYl> I'd guess that the setlist is the same as on every other stop of that tour
2023-11-29T14:20:26 < ventYl> pale rider is one great track too
2023-11-29T14:23:46 < karlp> fucking 16k of stack to use just for things that happen before freertos starts.
2023-11-29T14:23:54 < karlp> that seems wasteful bois.
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2023-11-29T14:48:42 < ventYl> nomorekaki: do you already feel isolated?
2023-11-29T14:49:13 < nomorekaki> ah
2023-11-29T14:49:53 < nomorekaki> I thought personally but you must be referring to border situation
2023-11-29T14:50:17 < nomorekaki> border situation is the bestest now
2023-11-29T14:51:13 < jpa-> karlp: doesn't that get reused when freertos is up?
2023-11-29T14:53:39 < ventYl> nomorekaki: I am refering to the stream of BS russia replied to Finish border decision
2023-11-29T14:54:12 < jpa-> ventYl: how do you tell apart the reply BS from the usual continuous stream of BS from russia?
2023-11-29T14:54:26 < jpa-> especially with a SNR of -10dB or less
2023-11-29T14:55:08 < ventYl> jpa-: I only recognize BS and master_BS
2023-11-29T14:56:06 < ventYl> I have actually read stuff published by russians on ria novosti before it got banned. and this stuff made me to decide everything they say is BS
2023-11-29T14:59:21 < nomorekaki> I have not been bothered yet to see what is the narrative today ventYl
2023-11-29T15:01:16 < PaulFertser> ventYl: banned how?
2023-11-29T15:05:52 < ventYl> PaulFertser: technically their DNS records were filtrated for some 6 months
2023-11-29T15:07:56 < PaulFertser> ventYl: so if you were using e.g. 1.1.1.1 resolver that would not affect you?
2023-11-29T15:09:04 < PaulFertser> ria novosti and rt should move to 4chan where they belong
2023-11-29T15:09:14 < ventYl> PaulFertser: basically. actual mileage depended on jurisdiction the resolver was in. 
2023-11-29T15:11:12 < PaulFertser> Blocking resources is stupid. If they really do something illegal like hate speech or spreading misinformation that is of immediate danger (like anti vaxing) please just open a criminal case and prosecute as any other criminal.
2023-11-29T15:11:52 < PaulFertser> And yes, only BS is expected from any entity under russian authorities control.
2023-11-29T15:12:21 < ventYl> I went to ria / rt essentially to see the official line and to get the view from other side. It was basically game over since the day ria published and then un-published that Putin's message
2023-11-29T15:13:25 < ventYl> next days only made it worse as more and more BS was coming out and then RIA got censored and RT lost their broadcasting licenses
2023-11-29T15:14:00 < ventYl> I wasn't interested in russian POV by then
2023-11-29T15:56:17 < nomorekaki> ventYl: the border situation is not over though
2023-11-29T15:58:34 < ventYl> nomorekaki: more BS coming?
2023-11-29T15:59:24 < nomorekaki> well there has not been any pushback yet
2023-11-29T15:59:38 < qyx> have you closed everything?
2023-11-29T15:59:51 < qyx> I have not read any news today yet
2023-11-29T15:59:58 < nomorekaki> y
2023-11-29T16:00:45 < nomorekaki> pushback meaning throwing people attempting to cross back where they came from
2023-11-29T16:02:07 < ventYl> I guess they will let those already inside to go through standard process
2023-11-29T16:03:14 < nomorekaki> I fear so
2023-11-29T16:03:46 < nomorekaki> no getting in needs to be absolute
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2023-11-29T16:05:30 < jbo> lets party
2023-11-29T16:05:34 < jbo> Steffanx, party time
2023-11-29T16:05:58 < zyp> ok
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2023-11-29T16:14:39 < Ecco> Can an ST-Link provide power to a board?
2023-11-29T16:14:44 < Ecco> Or is it just a terrible idea?
2023-11-29T16:15:30 < zyp> dunno if it can, but the idea is not terrible
2023-11-29T16:16:38 < zyp> it comes with a few gotchas, but it can be convenient
2023-11-29T16:18:17 < Ecco> Yes, that's what I'm after
2023-11-29T16:18:44 < Ecco> I don't think my debug probe (stlinkv3-minie) can do it though
2023-11-29T16:19:14 < zyp> told you you should just have gotten an orbtrace, it can ;)
2023-11-29T16:20:00 < zyp> but yeah
2023-11-29T16:20:38 < Ecco> Well, I might as well. The stlinkv3 is only $10
2023-11-29T16:20:43 < zyp> gotcha 1 is that if the hardware is too simply designed, the power output on the debugger can leak back into the debugger when it's not powered
2023-11-29T16:21:03 < Ecco> Not sure I follow
2023-11-29T16:21:05 < zyp> I've got some other debugger probes that has that issue
2023-11-29T16:21:15 < Ecco> Let me rephrase: I don't understand :-D
2023-11-29T16:21:33 < zyp> this is a matter of the debugger hardware itself
2023-11-29T16:22:08 < zyp> a typical FET-based power switch leaks in reverse through the body diode, unless specifically designed not to
2023-11-29T16:22:43 < zyp> which means that if the debugger is connected to the target but unplugged from USB, it can stay powered from the target
2023-11-29T16:23:21 < zyp> and the same thing holds true for the target
2023-11-29T16:23:27 < Ecco> ooooh
2023-11-29T16:23:32 < Ecco> got it, thanks
2023-11-29T16:23:35 < zyp> a typical LDO has the same issue
2023-11-29T16:24:19 < zyp> if you feed 3.3V into the 3.3V rail, it'll typically backfeed through LDO or buck regulators and end up on the higher power rail also
2023-11-29T16:24:57 < zyp> on simple boards, it's generally not a problem, on boards with more rails you can end up with the other rails being half-powered
2023-11-29T16:25:55 < zyp> if you're getting the 5V from usb-vbus you end up leaking voltage onto the vbus pin of the usb socket, which may cause a usb host to detect it and refuse to enumerate the device
2023-11-29T16:26:59 < zyp> e.g. some usb-c controllers refuse to turn on vbus if they already detect voltage on vbus
2023-11-29T16:35:48 < Ecco> oh, ok interesting. Thanks for the explanation!
2023-11-29T16:52:37 < karlp> jpa-: not as far as I can tell form the linker scripts here. looks like it' sjust set aside :)
2023-11-29T16:52:52 < karlp> it's ok, 64MB sdram, I guess they haven't noticed things run out yet...
2023-11-29T16:59:21 < jpa-> it's always good to have some extra RAM that you can add back when you run out :)
2023-11-29T17:11:56 < karlp> yeah, this is the most ocmplicated setup I've ever dealt with.
2023-11-29T17:12:25 < karlp> bootloader loads some code ot internal flash, others to sdram, and saves sdram to external flash if it's changed. 
2023-11-29T17:12:49 < karlp> apparnetly because this tm4c has "insufficnet" instruction/data caching, so perf was "too bad" comapred to the kinetis part it replaced.
2023-11-29T17:12:57 < karlp> but wayyy complex
2023-11-29T17:13:13 < karlp> "gdb load" doesn't approave of this technique...
2023-11-29T17:16:47 < jpa-> i had bunch of annoyances with gdb and RP2040 running from RAM.. like breakpoints that GDB sets by modifying the RAM contents
2023-11-29T17:24:30 < PaulFertser> Why is it bad? You get unlimited breakpoints that way...
2023-11-29T17:24:45 < PaulFertser> You can use "hbreak" instead to use the FPB breakpoints.
2023-11-29T17:36:42 < karlp> heh, got a company ccard.  notes are "get this app to take pictures of invoices and attach directly to expense reports!"  then it has a note under it "paper invoices still must be submitted!"
2023-11-29T17:58:36 < ventYl> the german way is to scan paper report, send it digitally and then post is in paper form
2023-11-29T17:59:23 < ventYl> PaulFertser: interestingly, hbreak was the only thing that worked for me on NXP with software running from RAM
2023-11-29T17:59:32 < ventYl> break was silently ignored
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2023-11-29T18:03:28 < PaulFertser> ventYl: probably it was due to instruction caching. Was that with OpenOCD?
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2023-11-29T18:27:58 < karlp> lol, overflowed internal flash by.... 4MB.
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2023-11-29T19:03:54 < ventYl> PaulFertser: yeah, gdb + openocd
2023-11-29T19:04:05 < ventYl> karlp: 14 days before the release date?
2023-11-29T19:05:34 < PaulFertser> ventYl: hm, if there's an icache or some SMP arrangement OpenOCD should be taking care of it...
2023-11-29T19:10:48 < ventYl> it was a CM0+, albeit heavily modified, so icache or SMP can be ruled out
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2023-11-29T19:37:05 < jpa-> for me breakpoints only worked until next reset
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2023-11-29T19:40:25 < PaulFertser> ventYl: so how could have they not worked?
2023-11-29T19:41:08 < ventYl> IDK. everything looked like it is working, even oocd log shown they are being set. they just didn't hit
2023-11-29T19:41:29 < PaulFertser> jpa-: gdb by default sets all breakpoints before it lets the target run and clears when the target is halted. So if you had breakpoint on main() and then "continue" it would reinstall all the breakpoints.
2023-11-29T19:41:35 < jpa-> for me it was the bootloader re-copying stuff from flash to RAM after the breakpoint was set
2023-11-29T19:41:41 < ventYl> it is possible, that this is due to how kinetis is made, they edited Cortex, ripped the MPU out of it and put MPU of their design onto main bus
2023-11-29T19:42:19 < jpa-> PaulFertser: and that messes up the timing of boot - but i didn't know about hbreak, maybe that would be the simple fix
2023-11-29T19:42:22 < PaulFertser> jpa-: yes, I can see how reset can mess that up.
2023-11-29T19:42:58 < PaulFertser> jpa-: there's also a command in OpenOCD which makes all breakpoints be "hard" by default, useful with some IDEs where you do not get to choose the breakpoint type I guess.
2023-11-29T19:42:58 < jpa-> besides, my main() was in RAM so i couldn't set a software breakpoint on it either
2023-11-29T19:43:59 < PaulFertser> Yeah, I see how it can be broken that way.
2023-11-29T19:44:52 < jpa-> this all was made even more annoying by the RP2040 debugging design that apparently has no way to reset both cores simultaneously without also resetting the debug interface
2023-11-29T19:47:48 < ventYl> OK, nicely looking portability is tougher than I expected
2023-11-29T20:03:42 < Steffanx> Party time. wut what jbo ?
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2023-11-29T22:26:25 < karlp> ventYl: lol, worse.  I'm working on adding functionality that was already believed to have been working and included in the shipping product :)
2023-11-29T22:26:56 < ventYl> karlp: nice
2023-11-29T22:26:58 < karlp> the 4MB blowout though is caused by someone bringing in kconfig, but not bringing any actual management of .config files, so I "chose poorly" 
2023-11-29T22:27:17 < karlp> and cahnged from one board to another in the menuconfig, but didn't do "all the other things" that had to be set by hand....
2023-11-29T22:27:46 < ventYl> kconfig => zephyr?
2023-11-29T22:28:04 < karlp> butI went and toured a fish factory today, and got to poke around and see some of our 20year old equipment still chugging away
2023-11-29T22:28:28 < karlp> the kconfig pythong thing that zephyr uses, yes, but no, not zephyr, it's just configuring internal things
2023-11-29T22:28:40 < karlp> and I think it's been over zealously applied.
2023-11-29T22:28:46 < karlp> there's like "HAVE_SPI" and shit
2023-11-29T22:28:48 < ventYl> 4MB blowout is huge
2023-11-29T22:28:50 < karlp> that you literalyl can't turn off.
2023-11-29T22:29:12 < karlp> nah, they have a pile of assets in external flash, load most of the app to extgernal ram.
2023-11-29T22:29:21 < karlp> it's the strangest use of an MCU I've seen...
2023-11-29T22:29:41 < karlp> buthey, 40+ freertos threads can't be wrong!
2023-11-29T22:29:51 < ventYl> we ended up realizing that our firmware won't fit into flash and there is nothing we can hack to fix it some two weeks before the deadline
2023-11-29T22:30:26 < ventYl> which, coincidentally was like a week before I was to left the company
2023-11-29T22:30:31 < karlp> one of these projects literalyl exists because chipshortages led tehm to work around kinetis by using TI, and it's not ready yet, but the kinetis parts ar eback in stock....
2023-11-29T22:30:49 < karlp> I do not understand how some decision making was being done here in the past...
2023-11-29T22:31:06 < ventYl> I've had similar project *using* kinetis done for the same reason recently
2023-11-29T22:32:05 < karlp> https://www.teleioscapital.com/documents/2023-11-29-teleios-letter-to-the-board-of-marel.pdf
2023-11-29T22:32:10 < ventYl> originally they wanted to start in 2022, kick-off was sometime in april 2023, real work started in september, they still did not accept the code
2023-11-29T22:32:12 < karlp> apparently I'm not the only one ... 
2023-11-29T22:33:12 < karlp> hard digs at hte investors of my old company too :)
2023-11-29T22:42:11 < ventYl> well, lack of decision making and conflict of interests
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2023-11-29T23:03:06 < ventYl> one fugly commit at time
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2023-11-29T23:36:50 < qyx> karlp: I am using kconfiglib too and it is not totally wrong tool for the job but you need a decent amount of OCPD to configure everything properly (deps, reverse deps, etc) to be actually helpful
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--- Day changed to marras 30 2023
2023-11-30T00:14:17 < Ecco> karlp: Just read that document. Dang. How much is that company worth?
2023-11-30T00:14:23 < qyx> time for nordic musiks
2023-11-30T00:14:47 < Ecco> Oh wait it's publicly traded
2023-11-30T00:15:24 < Ecco> ok it's massive
2023-11-30T00:16:06 < Ecco> Adam Epstein. Related? :-D
2023-11-30T00:17:34 < qyx> hu dat, is he *that* epstein?
2023-11-30T00:23:38 < qyx> zyp: how do EVSE hotplug the EV? have you seen a ref design/schematic?
2023-11-30T00:24:02 < qyx> it is a true IT (the DC side), isn'ti it?
2023-11-30T00:26:35 < zyp> qyx, I've even designed an EVSE (two revisions, neither which I got around to actually fab)
2023-11-30T00:26:59 < zyp> but, what exactly are you thinking of?
2023-11-30T00:27:59 < zyp> first of all, are we talking regular AC home charging, or DC fast charging?
2023-11-30T00:28:40 < zyp> for the latter, the CCS standard requires digital comms, which is some XML SOAP bullshit over greenphy PLC
2023-11-30T00:29:11 < qyx> I mean the power part, DC
2023-11-30T00:29:27 < zyp> what power part?
2023-11-30T00:29:32 < qyx> yeah, after the comms is established and everything is ready to go
2023-11-30T00:29:43 < qyx> the car has to hotplug to the charger
2023-11-30T00:29:48 < zyp> are you thinking of home EVSE?
2023-11-30T00:29:51 < qyx> is there a large DC contactoe?
2023-11-30T00:29:54 < zyp> or fast charging?
2023-11-30T00:30:01 < zyp> yeah
2023-11-30T00:30:24 < qyx> so fully electromechanical, no large mosfets?
2023-11-30T00:30:32 < zyp> the DC pins in the socket don't go live before negotiation succeds
2023-11-30T00:30:33 < zyp> idk
2023-11-30T00:30:37 < zyp> probably car specific
2023-11-30T00:30:45 < qyx> yeah that's what interests me
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2023-11-30T00:30:56 < zyp> I believe my car has a (probably optional) DC/DC stepup
2023-11-30T00:31:03 < qyx> because there can be huge potential difference betqeen the car and the charger
2023-11-30T00:31:18 < zyp> 800V battery system, stepup when charging from 400V chargers
2023-11-30T00:31:44 < zyp> guess it could act as a solid state passthrough as well
2023-11-30T00:32:00 < zyp> but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a safety contactor between it and the socket anyway
2023-11-30T00:32:34 < qyx> I was also a bit surprised that the plug locks when charging
2023-11-30T00:32:52 < zyp> if the potential difference is a problem, there's probably a sequence to deal with it
2023-11-30T00:33:07 < qyx> I though you are allowed to pull it and it is fast enough to disconnect without arcing
2023-11-30T00:33:08 < zyp> I believe there's also a precharge step, presumably to reduce inrush currents
2023-11-30T00:33:42 < zyp> belts and suspenders, probably
2023-11-30T00:34:07 < zyp> you don't really want random people to be able to unplug your car while it's charging anyway
2023-11-30T00:34:24 < qyx> hm
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2023-11-30T00:34:53 < qyx> is that a thing
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2023-11-30T00:35:40 < zyp> for mode 3 AC charging, you've usually got a cable with plugs both towards the EV and the EVSE, locked in both ends against theft
2023-11-30T00:36:03 < zyp> typically the EVSE locks it as long as it's connected to a car, and car locks it as long as the car is locked
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2023-11-30T01:06:24 < jerkey> OMG you guys are talking about CCS that's my line of work
2023-11-30T01:07:25 < jerkey> yes the car has contactors on both plus and minus to the CCS socket
2023-11-30T01:08:39 < jerkey> zyp are you talking about level 2 charging in europe?  DCFC/CCS doesn't unplug from both ends, only from the car end
2023-11-30T01:12:51 < qyx> jerkey: mechanical? but they are not hot-contacting, are they? the charger pushes current only when the contactors are closed
2023-11-30T01:25:19 < zyp> jerkey, I'm not sure what «level 2» refers to, in europe we talk about modes
2023-11-30T01:27:06 < zyp> hmm, is the main difference between level 1 and level 2 just the voltage? i.e. 120V vs 240V?
2023-11-30T01:27:43 < zyp> we don't have split phase in europe, so that distinction doesn't exist here
2023-11-30T01:28:44 < jerkey> qyx: yes mechanical, the charger doesn't try anything until after the vehicle closes the contactors, also it looks for voltage there
2023-11-30T01:28:54 < zyp> we have mode 2 which are the portable EVSEs that can be plugged into regular outlets, mode 3 which are fixed AC EVSEs and mode 4 which are DC charging
2023-11-30T01:29:05 < jerkey> zyp yes afaik that's the difference between level 1 and 2.  There is no level 3
2023-11-30T01:29:22 < jerkey> wow til
2023-11-30T01:29:24 < zyp> table on https://evocharge.com/resources/the-difference-between-level-1-2-ev-chargers/ says DC is level 3
2023-11-30T01:30:28 < zyp> also, the reason mode 3 EVSEs usually have outlets and not tethered cables is because cars have different inlets
2023-11-30T01:30:45 < zyp> we call J1772 «type 1»
2023-11-30T01:30:59 < zyp> some cars have that, e.g. older leafs
2023-11-30T01:31:13 < zyp> most newer cars come with type 2, which allow three phase charging
2023-11-30T01:31:30 < zyp> and EVSEs also have type 2 outlets
2023-11-30T01:32:00 < zyp> so depending on your car you've got a type 2 to type 1 or 2 cable that you bring along for public AC chargers
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2023-11-30T02:32:18 < karlp> whee, I achieved some stuff tonight! https://bin.jvnv.net/file/Psmna.png
2023-11-30T02:50:37 < qyx> what's that
2023-11-30T03:06:01 < qyx> oh so nothing prevents me from feeding an external power to a high side driver instead of using a bootstrap cap and a diode?
2023-11-30T03:06:26 < qyx> I have never even tried that
2023-11-30T03:06:53 < Ecco> karlp: what software is that?
2023-11-30T03:10:07 < jerkey> qyx: are you asking if you can feed DC into a car through the CCS port?  There's a very loong dance that you have to do just right, and the moment you misstep the car will abort and open contactors
2023-11-30T03:14:11 < qyx> wut, no :)
2023-11-30T03:15:01 < qyx> I am investigatig different use cases of DC hotplugging and how is it done
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2023-11-30T03:15:38 < qyx> but EVs aren't actually hotplugged
2023-11-30T03:17:48 < qyx> also my religion doesn't allow me touching any homeplug phys so that's not an option
2023-11-30T03:56:23 < jerkey> lol what
2023-11-30T04:11:12 < machinehum> Any of you guys going to this https://fosdem.org/2024/
2023-11-30T04:11:24 < machinehum> My visa came through so I'm flying over on the 5th
2023-11-30T04:11:39 < machinehum> There is now a Swiss visa and expired TN visa for the US
2023-11-30T04:11:47 < machinehum> IN my passport
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2023-11-30T09:36:59 < ventYl> machinehum: I am thinking of going there
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2023-11-30T11:33:17 < karlp> Ecco: just kicad, but lots of locked parts, which are that highlighted pink stuff
2023-11-30T11:34:53 < karlp> https://kicanvas.org/?github=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fkarlp%2Fdas-kb4-bara2 or https://github.com/karlp/das-kb4-bara2 if you want the very brief readme...
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2023-11-30T14:12:08 < karlp> does anyone other than microchip and analog devices offer EUI48/EUI64 eeproms?  I thought you could get them from most vendors, but I can't find any others..
2023-11-30T14:12:15 < karlp> AD only offerrs old dallas 1wire ones.
2023-11-30T14:28:42 < jpa-> seems no
2023-11-30T14:30:52 < jpa-> this time aisler claims they couldn't assemble USB4085 connector i put in the BOM on the footprint for DX07S024WJ3R400 that i put on the PCB
2023-11-30T14:30:59 < jpa-> but at least the STM32 is right way around
2023-11-30T15:10:50 < mawk> I have a dead stlink whose LED stays orange
2023-11-30T15:10:51 < mawk> what do
2023-11-30T15:10:57 < mawk> trashcan?
2023-11-30T15:13:36 < mawk> I opened it and cleaned it with IPA but it didn't change
2023-11-30T15:13:47 < mawk> there is a CN1 connector thing, can I try to flash it that way? or is it write protected
2023-11-30T15:14:46 < PaulFertser> stlinks are write protected but you can flash them over after unlocking/mass erasing.
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2023-11-30T15:20:12 < zyp> jpa-, «this time»? why do you keep using aisler if they keep fucking up?
2023-11-30T15:20:52 < jbo> aisler has a way of fucking up in a way that doesn't upset you entirely
2023-11-30T15:20:55 < jbo> at least IMHO :D
2023-11-30T15:21:06 < jbo> also: moin
2023-11-30T15:21:41 < ventYl> order failed successfully
2023-11-30T15:21:50 < jbo> exactly
2023-11-30T15:29:24 < Steffanx> Did you have a good party jbo?
2023-11-30T15:29:32 < jbo> no
2023-11-30T15:29:53 < Steffanx> Too bad. Want some cake?
2023-11-30T15:47:47 < jpa-> zyp: to be honest, this time everything was perfect
2023-11-30T15:48:01 < jpa-> i just messed up the BOM a bit so have to solder the one connector myself
2023-11-30T15:48:15 < jpa-> .. and made a bunch of other stupid bugs on the PCB
2023-11-30T15:48:25 < zyp> having to hand solder stuff doesn't sound perfect
2023-11-30T15:48:40 < zyp> unless you've got a weird definition of perfect
2023-11-30T15:48:45 < jpa-> :)
2023-11-30T15:48:56 < zyp> also, those connectors are a bit annoying to hand solder
2023-11-30T15:49:00 < ventYl> purrfect
2023-11-30T15:49:12 < jpa-> i guess they could have catched my BOM mistake earlier, but..
2023-11-30T15:49:57 < zyp> I got some boards recently where people forgot paste apertures for the pin in paste shield pins
2023-11-30T15:50:23 < zyp> connector was just hanging by the smt pins
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2023-11-30T16:56:41 < mawk> Triangle ABC has side lengths in arithmetic progression, and the smallest side has length 6. If the triangle has an angle of 120° what is the area of ABC?
2023-11-30T17:05:03 < ventYl> hm, one can't add shellscript into git?
2023-11-30T17:11:14 < ventYl> nah, BS
2023-11-30T17:12:39 < karlp> what?
2023-11-30T17:13:13 < ventYl> I got error regarding one shell script and I brainfarted that it isn't included in the repository
2023-11-30T17:13:35 < ventYl> while the true reason was that the path was hardcoded and ended up being wrong
2023-11-30T17:28:37 < zyp> mawk, 25.98
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2023-11-30T17:31:36 < zyp> mawk, if angle C is 120deg, then a=6, b=6+x, c=6+2x, plug into law of cosines and solve for x, which is 4
2023-11-30T17:31:52 < zyp> then just plug into heron's formula to find area
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2023-11-30T17:40:44 < bitmask> this blows
2023-11-30T17:40:51 < bitmask> I can't figure out why this led driver isnt working
2023-11-30T17:41:02 < bitmask> shitty chinese datasheets :P
2023-11-30T17:46:14 < bitmask> if I can read and write the configuration then theres pretty much zero chance the IC is bad right?
2023-11-30T17:46:36 < bitmask> anyone bored and want to take a look for me and give me ideas?
2023-11-30T18:18:54 < mawk> yes zyp 
2023-11-30T18:18:59 < mawk> there are a lot of herons here
2023-11-30T18:19:06 < mawk> sure bitmask 
2023-11-30T18:19:46 < bitmask> i dont even know where to begin, this is the ds: https://z3d9b7u8.stackpathcdn.com/pdf-down/M/B/I/MBI5043-Macroblock.pdf
2023-11-30T18:20:03 < bitmask> the only code ive found that uses this chip is: https://github.com/ktims/xmascard2020/blob/master/code/include/MBI5043.h
2023-11-30T18:20:52 < bitmask> i can write then read back the correct config (including the enable bit being enabled) but nothing is coming out of the leds, and i dont know where to begin
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2023-11-30T18:25:15 < mawk> is this exactly the code you're using?
2023-11-30T18:25:38 < mawk> what voltages do you measure on the IC bitmask 
2023-11-30T18:25:51 < mawk> and does your multimeter give the right forward voltage for your LEDs?
2023-11-30T18:26:25 < mawk> and what resistor did you connect on pin 23
2023-11-30T18:26:29 < bitmask> no its not the exact code im using but its similar
2023-11-30T18:26:52 < bitmask> 1k ohm
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2023-11-30T18:27:38 < mawk> and what is the supply voltage you use
2023-11-30T18:27:58 < bitmask> im using 3.3v to power the board and the led anodes are connected to 5
2023-11-30T18:27:59 < bitmask> v
2023-11-30T18:28:07 < mawk> ah
2023-11-30T18:29:28 < mawk> and what do you measure on the current sinks?
2023-11-30T18:29:32 < mawk> when you enable the output in the code
2023-11-30T18:30:46 < bitmask> hmm this cheap green led is measuring 3V on  the cathode end
2023-11-30T18:30:52 < bitmask> so 2V across
2023-11-30T18:31:02 < mawk> ah
2023-11-30T18:31:10 < mawk> so it is sinking some current
2023-11-30T18:31:19 < mawk> but not enough to turn it on
2023-11-30T18:31:24 < mawk> what current gain did you set?
2023-11-30T18:31:30 < bitmask> default
2023-11-30T18:31:33 < bitmask> 100%
2023-11-30T18:31:36 < mawk> ah
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2023-11-30T18:32:10 < bitmask> oops hah closed irc accidentally
2023-11-30T18:32:13 < mawk> so you have an input current of 14mA
2023-11-30T18:32:23 < mawk> that's probably not enough for your green led
2023-11-30T18:32:24 < mawk> it seems
2023-11-30T18:32:35 < mawk> try to increase the current and see what happens
2023-11-30T18:32:38 < bitmask> you sure? that seems like it would be enough
2023-11-30T18:32:50 < bitmask> yea i'll try a lower value resistor
2023-11-30T18:32:58 < mawk> I'd say 30mA is good
2023-11-30T18:33:10 < mawk> even though it feels like it should turn on at 15mA but it doesn't
2023-11-30T18:33:23 < mawk> the forward voltage is something like 3V on these
2023-11-30T18:33:43 < mawk> you can also increase the current gain bitmask 
2023-11-30T18:33:48 < mawk> before changing the resistor
2023-11-30T18:33:53 < bitmask> oh good point
2023-11-30T18:34:07 < mawk> set it to all 1s
2023-11-30T18:34:12 < mawk> bits 4 to 9
2023-11-30T18:34:18 < bitmask> yea
2023-11-30T18:34:44 < mawk> that will do 27mA
2023-11-30T18:35:48 < mawk> also, you're having a too high voltage at the cathode
2023-11-30T18:35:50 < mawk> it's not normal
2023-11-30T18:36:01 < mawk> you should see around 1V max
2023-11-30T18:36:09 < mawk> so try to put a small resistor before the LED
2023-11-30T18:36:16 < mawk> if the IC didn't explode 
2023-11-30T18:36:33 < mawk> isn't is getting hot?
2023-11-30T18:39:53 < bitmask> nothing is warm at all, hmm that didnt change anything, let me read the config back and see if it worked
2023-11-30T18:42:18 < mawk> what's the voltage at the cathode now?
2023-11-30T18:42:30 < mawk> also put a small resistor in front of the LED and measure the voltage drop 
2023-11-30T18:42:39 < mawk> to verify if it's indeed sinking 30mA
2023-11-30T18:43:24 < mawk> you can also put the resistor in place of the LED
2023-11-30T18:45:15 < bitmask> yea theres no current
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2023-11-30T18:46:11 < mawk> ha
2023-11-30T18:46:52 < mawk> and how do you enable the outputs in the code?
2023-11-30T18:47:06 < mawk> setting the configuration is not enough 
2023-11-30T18:47:26 < mawk> you need to tell it to start sinking on the right channel
2023-11-30T18:47:48 < bitmask> yea I set the grayscale values for the 16 channels
2023-11-30T18:49:53 < bitmask> https://i.imgur.com/b3ZM6VD.png
2023-11-30T18:49:56 < bitmask> thats setting the grayscale
2023-11-30T18:51:03 < bitmask> v
2023-11-30T18:51:03 < bitmask> https://i.imgur.com/TAvyo4n.png
2023-11-30T18:51:14 < bitmask> thats reading the config showing all 1s for the gain
2023-11-30T18:51:23 < mawk> and are you clocking in the pixel data on SDI?
2023-11-30T18:51:32 < mawk> and providing the clock for that
2023-11-30T18:52:15 < bitmask> yea, SDI goes high for the last 3 channels 0xFFFF
2023-11-30T18:52:26 < bitmask> you can see in the pic
2023-11-30T18:52:48 < bitmask> DCLK is for clocking in that data, and GCLK is just for the chip to use for pwm
2023-11-30T18:53:45 < mawk> yes
2023-11-30T18:54:07 < mawk> do you see the data coming out on SDO too?
2023-11-30T18:54:20 < mawk> just to check the chip knows there is data coming in
2023-11-30T18:54:21 < bitmask> yea, you can see it in that first image
2023-11-30T18:54:30 < mawk> ah right
2023-11-30T18:55:33 < mawk> and you're toggling the LE at the right moments too?
2023-11-30T18:55:43 < mawk> I can't zoom on the images for some reason
2023-11-30T18:55:48 < mawk> my phone doesn't like them
2023-11-30T18:56:57 < bitmask> i believe so, i went with the order that xmas tree code uses because the ds is lacking info
2023-11-30T18:57:10 < bitmask> so if theirs works then my le should be correct
2023-11-30T18:57:35 < mawk> you should toggle it for exactly one clock cycle
2023-11-30T18:57:46 < mawk> and when you set the comparator data, 3 clock cycles 
2023-11-30T18:58:04 < bitmask> yea
2023-11-30T18:59:12 < mawk> and is the disable/enable bit set to enable?
2023-11-30T18:59:17 < bitmask> https://i.imgur.com/u9lrpkw.png
2023-11-30T18:59:20 < bitmask> thats zoomed in
2023-11-30T18:59:25 < bitmask> yes
2023-11-30T19:03:07 < benishor> speaking of which, what OS are you using bitmask?
2023-11-30T19:03:14 < bitmask> os x
2023-11-30T19:03:19 < benishor> ah, ok
2023-11-30T19:03:30 < benishor> I recently tried saelae sw on ubuntu 23.10 and seemed problematic
2023-11-30T19:03:38 < benishor> may be also the fact that I run wayland
2023-11-30T19:03:39 < bitmask> ahh, no problems here
2023-11-30T19:04:05 < benishor> saleae. damn, I always get that wrong
2023-11-30T19:05:05 < bitmask> this is reading the config right after enabling (I reset the gain back to 100%)
2023-11-30T19:05:05 < bitmask> https://i.imgur.com/aOIQZcA.png
2023-11-30T19:09:18 < bitmask> I was worried I had the config 1 bit shifted, but I set the first bit and the last bit to 1 and read it back yesterday and I got both bits
2023-11-30T19:10:27 < mawk> saleae works perfectly on lunix
2023-11-30T19:11:24 < mawk> and your GCLK and DCLK frequencies are all within spec then
2023-11-30T19:11:55 < bitmask> theres no min but they are definitely below max
2023-11-30T19:12:28 < bitmask> gclk is 8mhz and max is 16.5 MHz with rising/falling edge trigger mode, 33MHz without
2023-11-30T19:12:38 < mawk> o
2023-11-30T19:14:01 < bitmask> oh wait
2023-11-30T19:14:05 < bitmask> is it 8 or 16 haha
2023-11-30T19:14:20 < bitmask> either way should be fine, ive tried without the rising/falling trigger
2023-11-30T19:15:20 < bitmask> it should be 16mhz but saleae is saying 8, maybe 24mhz isnt fast enough to get it?
2023-11-30T19:16:44 < bitmask> i doubt this matters but this is on a breadboard (i have a breakout i soldered the ssop to ) and the mcu is on its own board
2023-11-30T19:20:00 < catphish> are there any good open source RISC-V CPU cores yet?
2023-11-30T19:20:22 < catphish> (for any value of good, ie anything that would be worth playing with)
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2023-11-30T19:23:25 < mawk> well what's the sample rate of your LA bitmask 
2023-11-30T19:23:35 < mawk> and did you set it fast enough in the settings 
2023-11-30T19:25:24 < bitmask> 24
2023-11-30T19:25:50 < bitmask> shouldnt matter anyway
2023-11-30T19:27:03 < mawk> well that limits you to 12MHz signals
2023-11-30T19:27:35 < bitmask> does the fact that the led cathodes are at a voltage just below their forward voltages mean the chip is doing what it should?
2023-11-30T19:28:02 < bitmask> yea but it doesnt matter, the gclk is fine
2023-11-30T19:28:04 < mawk> well if you put a resistor in series and you see no voltage drop across it, no
2023-11-30T19:28:23 < bitmask> what size resistor
2023-11-30T19:28:37 < mawk> you can put like 50Ω
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2023-11-30T19:29:29 < mawk> the cathodes being at some voltage when the FETs are not enabled is probably not extremely meaningful 
2023-11-30T19:30:02 < bitmask> gotcha
2023-11-30T19:31:13 < mawk> you should see ~0V voltage drop when off and ~1.4V when o'
2023-11-30T19:31:15 < mawk> on*
2023-11-30T19:32:55 < bitmask> ok, its not on
2023-11-30T19:33:18 < bitmask> maybe im not sending the data right
2023-11-30T19:35:16 < mawk> maybe
2023-11-30T19:36:11 < mawk> you're starting with setting the buffer a bunch of times for each row (each terminated by 1 LE), and then the last one is terminated by 3 LE to write back the buffer into the comparator or something like that?
2023-11-30T19:36:45 < bitmask> yes
2023-11-30T19:37:05 < bitmask> this is the zoomed out view: https://i.imgur.com/b3ZM6VD.png
2023-11-30T19:37:32 < bitmask> this is zoomed in showing the last couple channels and then the 17th is just to send the 3 LE: https://i.imgur.com/u9lrpkw.png
2023-11-30T19:38:11 < bitmask> I have it setting channels 0 to 2 to 0xFFFF
2023-11-30T19:38:29 < bitmask> thats the long high on SDI, which is repeated on SDO
2023-11-30T19:42:17 < mawk> right
2023-11-30T19:42:27 < mawk> try to set all channels to FFFF
2023-11-30T19:42:36 < mawk> maybe it's reversed or something
2023-11-30T19:42:50 < mawk> and then to 0000
2023-11-30T19:43:41 < mawk> so you known how to prove it zyp ? the surveyor's formula
2023-11-30T19:43:53 < mawk> or shoelace formula 
2023-11-30T19:44:01 < bitmask> i'll have to try later, i gotta get my day started, thanks for trying to help though
2023-11-30T19:44:25 < bitmask> oh that cant be it, i purposely put leds on a bunch of outputs, including the last to make sure i wasnt messing that up
2023-11-30T19:44:44 < mawk> given a polygonal chain (P1; P2; …; Pn) describing a polygon with edges P1P2, P2P3, …, PnP1
2023-11-30T19:44:50 < mawk> what is the area
2023-11-30T19:45:34 < mawk> let's say the shape is not self-intersecting
2023-11-30T19:45:50 < mawk> and we can say it's star-convex
2023-11-30T19:45:56 < mawk> to begin
2023-11-30T19:46:05 < mawk> ✨-convex
2023-11-30T19:49:32 < mawk> we can take a heptagon for instance, ((-2; -1), (0; -5), (3; -2), (2; 1); (1; 3); (-2; 5); (-1; 2))
2023-11-30T20:01:44 < mawk> uh oh I guess I accidentally made two aligned points 
2023-11-30T20:01:56 < mawk> then it's a hexagon 
2023-11-30T20:02:05 < mawk> hexagons are the bestagons anyway 
2023-11-30T20:03:21 < mawk> the points are {(3; -2); (2; 1); (1; 3)}
2023-11-30T20:03:28 < mawk> how2check if they are aligned
2023-11-30T20:10:39 < fenugrec> some matrix dickery / vector product 
2023-11-30T20:10:54 < mawk> hmmm seems they are not, just my drawing 
2023-11-30T20:11:02 < mawk> vector product is one way, fenugrec 
2023-11-30T20:11:11 < mawk> you can also just look at the vectors
2023-11-30T20:11:20 < mawk> if one is a multiple of the other
2023-11-30T20:11:41 < mawk> but my favorite way is using matrix dickery
2023-11-30T20:11:49 < mawk> because it works for any amount of vectors in any dimension 
2023-11-30T20:11:58 < mawk> to check if one is a combination of the others 
2023-11-30T20:12:29 < mawk> you just do [u, v] where [•, •] is the determinant and u, v are the two vectors to check
2023-11-30T20:13:03 < Steffanx> Yes
2023-11-30T20:13:19 < mawk> of the three points are A, B, C then you do [A-B, C-B]
2023-11-30T20:15:01 < mawk> and if that's zero they are aligned
2023-11-30T20:15:26 < mawk> so if the two vectors are (a; b) and (c; d) then you do ad-bc = 0
2023-11-30T20:15:54 < qyx> knipex vs finger 1:0
2023-11-30T20:16:07 < mawk> who's knipex
2023-11-30T20:16:33 < qyx> rugged cable scissors
2023-11-30T20:17:23 < qyx> it was a close call
2023-11-30T20:23:44 < Ecco> oh wow, hope you're ok
2023-11-30T20:24:14 < qyx> yeah still attached, no prob
2023-11-30T20:37:13 < Ecco> :-D
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2023-11-30T21:10:31 < machinehum> ventYl: Nice
2023-11-30T21:10:39 < machinehum> I will
2023-11-30T21:10:45 < machinehum> Might give a talk
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2023-11-30T23:09:54 < Steffanx> About what machinehum / machinehum2 ?
2023-11-30T23:10:42 < machinehum> Dunno
2023-11-30T23:10:54 < machinehum> Maybe this https://interruptlabs.ca/2021/04/28/I'm-putting-a-WiFi-router-into-a-wall-charger-Part-0/
2023-11-30T23:10:59 < machinehum> People seem to like that one
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2023-11-30T23:31:09 < Steffanx> Hows your usb drive thingy going?
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2023-11-30T23:34:39 < machinehum> ah
2023-11-30T23:34:48 < machinehum> https://youtu.be/LD9e73BYAnI?si=eAAtgGVB3iMzOGr9
2023-11-30T23:34:55 < machinehum> Was promoted on Hackaday
2023-11-30T23:35:06 < machinehum> Basically it isn't melting
2023-11-30T23:35:44 < machinehum> So I'm going to sell it is a "Self hiding USB", which makes more sense anyways. Encrypted partition that is only visible if you plug it in three times rapidly
2023-11-30T23:36:11 < machinehum> Little script kiddies that know nothing about encryption can just use it with that
2023-11-30T23:36:59 < machinehum> Flying to Switerzlandz on the 5th
2023-11-30T23:37:17 < machinehum> Stoked I'm going to join a hackspace so I can be awkward and not speak the local dialect
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2023-11-30T23:37:45 < machinehum> I have to take a language test in a year and if I fail I get deported back to Canada
2023-11-30T23:37:59 < qyx> lol
2023-11-30T23:38:10 < machinehum> Can't have greasy non German speaking Canadians wrecking the culture
2023-11-30T23:41:24 < qyx> can't you tell then you are from France, just washed away over 7 seas?
2023-11-30T23:41:48 < qyx> maybe they are more kind to .fr people
2023-11-30T23:42:33 < machinehum> I don't speak French
2023-11-30T23:42:34 < machinehum> At all
2023-11-30T23:42:55 < qyx> canada is weird
2023-11-30T23:43:07 < machinehum> yes, but why do you think it is?
2023-11-30T23:43:35 < machinehum> The most idiotic part of this country is like 80% of the GDP is housing
2023-11-30T23:43:56 < BrainDamage> where in switzerland?
2023-11-30T23:44:02 < machinehum> Basel
2023-11-30T23:44:05 < qyx> and you don't evem drive on the wrong side
2023-11-30T23:44:07 < qyx> or do you?
2023-11-30T23:44:16 < BrainDamage> about 3h train from here
2023-11-30T23:44:18 < machinehum> Drive on the same side as the US
2023-11-30T23:44:25 < machinehum> BrainDamage: Where are you?
2023-11-30T23:44:45 < BrainDamage> italy, at the border with switzerland
2023-11-30T23:45:23 < qyx> odeal place for grazing sheep
2023-11-30T23:45:41 < machinehum> Coo
2023-11-30T23:46:26 < machinehum> I met dude on the plane, live in Ireland for 20 years and born in Austria, was there for 20 years
2023-11-30T23:46:40 < machinehum> 1/2 irish accent, 1/2 austrian
2023-11-30T23:47:22 < machinehum> Complely irrelevant to what we were talking about, but I looked at a map and say Austria
2023-11-30T23:47:26 < machinehum> saw
2023-11-30T23:47:51 < qyx> did you see slovakia too
2023-11-30T23:47:57 < BrainDamage> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ac/32/ec/ac32ec439d5229441f2a8186c3400d17.jpg
2023-11-30T23:48:31 < qyx> does Austria look weird on the map?
2023-11-30T23:49:54 < qyx> lol BrainDamage 
2023-11-30T23:52:11 < machinehum> I don't get it
2023-11-30T23:53:52 < qyx> austria/australia mismatch, exactly like the usual slovenia/slovakia mismatch
2023-11-30T23:54:06 < machinehum> oh heh
2023-11-30T23:54:37 < machinehum> Having my laptop robbed from me in stealvenia I know exactly where that country is
2023-11-30T23:55:01 < machinehum> qyx: How similar is Slovack to Crotian? 
2023-11-30T23:55:27 < qyx> I considered slovenia safe
2023-11-30T23:55:39 < machinehum> Yeah same, I just joke
2023-11-30T23:56:11 < qyx> machinehum: not much, slovaks are more like czechs, poles
2023-11-30T23:56:20 < machinehum> Gotcha
2023-11-30T23:56:40 < machinehum> Were some people pissed when the country broke into two?
2023-11-30T23:56:49 < qyx> but we usually understand about 1/3 words from their kanguage
2023-11-30T23:56:55 < machinehum> ah
2023-11-30T23:57:06 < qyx> so you get the context and can communicate
2023-11-30T23:57:28 < qyx> about 90% with chech, more than 50% with poles
2023-11-30T23:57:51 < qyx> 1/3 with ukrainian and russian too I would say
2023-11-30T23:58:07 < qyx> hungarian and german to the left is totally different
2023-11-30T23:58:58 < machinehum> With all that info I feel like learning chech would be good bang for your buck
2023-11-30T23:59:15 < qyx> like you know what dach and schnitzel is because those words are used here too
2023-11-30T23:59:24 < machinehum> I guess most people also speak English in larger towns/cities
2023-11-30T23:59:35 < qyx> but you must learn german actively to understand anything
2023-11-30T23:59:58 < machinehum> hmm
--- Log closed pe joulu 01 00:00:00 2023