--- Log opened pe joulu 01 00:00:00 2023
2023-12-01T00:00:07 < machinehum> Yeah that's my first mission
2023-12-01T00:00:13 < qyx> nearly everybody younger than 40-50 knows at least english and/or german
2023-12-01T00:00:31 < machinehum> Fair
2023-12-01T00:00:44 < qyx> 60+ know russian and only I would say 10% english/german
2023-12-01T00:01:02 < machinehum> 60+ YO? Why from when I was part of ussr?
2023-12-01T00:01:20 < qyx> before 89 we were in ussr
2023-12-01T00:01:49 < machinehum> I was told those times sucked by someone who grew up in Prague
2023-12-01T00:02:05 < qyx> that is the general consensus
2023-12-01T00:02:25 < machinehum> Is where you live quite affordable? Similar to Prague?
2023-12-01T00:02:34 < qyx> but there are people actively promoting the goods of the past
2023-12-01T00:02:52 < machinehum> Pro communist?
2023-12-01T00:03:21 < qyx> not many but yes, we have now the ame problem as the rest of the world
2023-12-01T00:03:25 < qyx> far riht and populists
2023-12-01T00:04:29 < qyx> I am in bratislava now, Prague is considered to be uh, better, I would say
2023-12-01T00:04:35 < qyx> it depends on the pov.
2023-12-01T00:05:12 < qyx> affordable, idk, you can rent a flat for 500-1000e/mo here
2023-12-01T00:05:33 < qyx> buy a flat for about 150-250ke
2023-12-01T00:05:51 < qyx> buy a house for 200-500ke
2023-12-01T00:06:03 < qyx> or a mansion for 1.5 million :>
2023-12-01T00:06:12 < machinehum> Of course it depends on job opportunities and other things
2023-12-01T00:06:23 < machinehum> But that's quite affordable compared to Canada
2023-12-01T00:06:43 < machinehum> Here you can get a shitty falling down house for MAYBE 1.2M
2023-12-01T00:07:51 < qyx> take into consideration you get about 1/2 to 1/3 of switzerland/german/austrail monthly wage
2023-12-01T00:07:55 < qyx> austrian
2023-12-01T00:08:02 < machinehum> Right
2023-12-01T00:08:10 < machinehum> Part of the EU or no?
2023-12-01T00:08:22 < qyx> yes eu+nato
2023-12-01T00:08:42 < machinehum> Oh sweet we can work on military contracts together
2023-12-01T00:08:53 < qyx> lol thanks
2023-12-01T00:09:08 < qyx> I had offers but I am not into killing
2023-12-01T00:09:30 < qyx> everybody is chasing engineers for drones right now
2023-12-01T00:09:53 < machinehum> Neither am I
2023-12-01T00:10:20 < machinehum> Maybe countermeasures or something but I don't want to design something that will blow something up
2023-12-01T00:10:43 < machinehum> With my track record I can't even destroy a USB so I probably wouldn't be good at it anyways
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2023-12-01T00:37:27 < mawk> zyp : find the exact value of cos(2π/5)
2023-12-01T00:37:35 < mawk> hint: it's a quadratic number
2023-12-01T00:38:05 < mawk> so, looking like a + b√c
2023-12-01T00:55:41 < karlp> well, first, we assume pi == 3 for simplicity...
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2023-12-01T01:01:05 < qyx> I guess that makes things harder this time
2023-12-01T01:04:16  * qyx thinks about stm32 timer pulse skipping depending on the analol watchdog or comparator output
2023-12-01T01:04:27 < qyx> *pwm pulse skipping
2023-12-01T01:05:24 < qyx> oh wait, it is the same as manipulating ARR in runtime
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2023-12-01T10:29:00 < Steffanx> lol karlp know's how to math properly :)
2023-12-01T10:29:06 < Steffanx> -'
2023-12-01T10:56:21 < ventYl> machinehum: sure
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2023-12-01T11:30:17 < karlp> I think I saw recently someone say that pi is either 1, 3, or 10, depending on what level of accuracy you'r elooking for.
2023-12-01T11:30:58 < karlp> it's up there with all my favourite physics assumptions.  smooth surfaaces, point masses. no air resistance
2023-12-01T11:38:30 < mawk> 10 sounds suspicious 
2023-12-01T11:39:24 < zyp> 1 or 10 is just a matter of whether you round up or down
2023-12-01T11:44:40 < zyp> log10(pi) is 0.497, so on a log scale it's right in the middle between 1 and 10
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2023-12-01T11:45:07 < jpa-> but why is 355/113 so close to real value
2023-12-01T11:45:13 < mawk> yeah, if we're using it in a multiplicative formula
2023-12-01T11:45:28 < mawk> because it's one of the convergents of the continued fraction decomposition jpa- 
2023-12-01T11:45:35 < mawk> so is 22/7
2023-12-01T11:46:01 < mawk> and these are exactly the best rational approximations of pi (best as in with the smallest possible denominator size)
2023-12-01T11:46:02 < jpa-> yeah, but 22/7 is as accurate as 3.14 so doesn't save you any digits to remember
2023-12-01T11:46:14 < mawk> well what's important is the 7
2023-12-01T11:46:21 < mawk> it's very small, which makes it a very good approximation
2023-12-01T11:46:25 < mawk> the numerator is not very important
2023-12-01T11:46:34 < mawk> you can always remove the integer part
2023-12-01T11:46:37 < mawk> 3 + 1/7
2023-12-01T11:48:13 < karlp> 22/7 is the one my father used a lot.
2023-12-01T11:55:35 < karlp> fukcing renesas hav ea confusing mcu lineup.
2023-12-01T11:59:03 < karlp> arm cortex-m, some new in house riscv, inhouse RX core. some "other" inhouse RH lockstep
2023-12-01T11:59:06 < karlp> just in the 32bit .
2023-12-01T11:59:21 < karlp> and then arm is in two completely separate families, for... no idea what reason
2023-12-01T11:59:40 < zyp> just wait until you get hybrid arm/riscv chips
2023-12-01T12:00:00 < zyp> I'm curious how that's gonna work out in nrf54
2023-12-01T12:03:48 < karlp> WCH ch32x05 has a weird risc8bittter for doing some limited PIO style stuff too :)
2023-12-01T12:04:20 < karlp> it's... terribly documented: https://github.com/openwch/ch32x035/blob/main/EVT/EXAM/PIOC/PIOC_UART/User/main.c#L45-L149
2023-12-01T12:04:42 < karlp> there's a chinese pdf and a zip form a forum that contains the windows console binary compiler for it...
2023-12-01T12:05:08 < karlp> we're going to see the wonderfu ljoys of all the worst parts of old armv5 again I suspect.
2023-12-01T12:05:18 < karlp> where things like interrrupt and system control were all "someone elses problem"
2023-12-01T12:05:21 < karlp> and fractured heavily
2023-12-01T12:05:47 < zyp> ah, yeah
2023-12-01T12:05:57 < zyp> NVIC is one of the great joys of cortex-m
2023-12-01T12:08:12 < zyp> I wonder how the risc-v cores in nrf54 are tuned to justify needing another toolchain and debug infrastructure vs just putting in some m0+ cores instead
2023-12-01T12:09:55 < zyp> and I also wonder how they're gonna do the debug infrastructure, if they're gonna make the risc-v cores debuggable at all, and whether they'll hook them up to be accessible via the SWD-DP somehow
2023-12-01T12:11:17 < jpa-> and what is ARM going to say if they do :D
2023-12-01T12:12:01 < zyp> well, arm defined a JTAG-AP in ADIv5 so that you can drive arbitrary JTAG TAPs over SWD
2023-12-01T12:12:11 < jpa-> ah
2023-12-01T12:12:55 < zyp> so that'd be the most obvious way of doing it, using existing specs/IP
2023-12-01T12:13:38 < zyp> but it'd also be a bit inefficient
2023-12-01T12:14:26 < zyp> it'be more reasonable to have a MEM-AP act as a DMI and drive the risc-v DM directly
2023-12-01T12:25:34 < mawk> jpa-: https://oeis.org/A002485 and https://oeis.org/A002486 are respectively the numerators and denominators of the convergents to pi
2023-12-01T12:25:38 < mawk> you can also ask a computer to find it very easily
2023-12-01T12:25:44 < mawk> using a process ressembling division
2023-12-01T12:26:03 < mawk> you start with 3.1415926535897932...., the integer part is 3, so you subtract 3 and you invert the number
2023-12-01T12:26:28 < mawk> then the result is 7.062513305931052..., integer part is 7, you subtract 7 and invert the number
2023-12-01T12:26:59 < mawk> and so on and so forth; and you get the sequence [3; 7, 15, 1, 292, 1, 1, 1, 2, ...]
2023-12-01T12:27:22 < mawk> and the 355/113 is so close to the real value because it corresponds to the value 292 you see here
2023-12-01T12:27:53 < mawk> the higher the value of the integer part, the less the remaining number after subtraction contributes to the number
2023-12-01T12:28:33 < mawk> you can do this process for any number; if you do it for a rational then the sequence is finite, and if you do it for an algebraic number the sequence will be periodic
2023-12-01T12:29:08 < mawk> for instance the golden number has sequence [1; 1, 1, 1, ...], so 1 + 1/(1 + 1/(1 + 1/...))
2023-12-01T12:29:28 < mawk> and pi 3 + 1/(7 + 1/(15 + 1/(292 + ...)))
2023-12-01T12:29:48 < mawk> you see if you set the ... to 0 after the 292 that's when you get the 355/113
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2023-12-01T12:48:50 < Steffanx> It's a kind of maggicc
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2023-12-01T15:40:36 < Ecco> Do you guys have any idea why WBA doesn't have an USB IP block?
2023-12-01T15:40:45 < Ecco> I mean, it looks like a rather high-end chip
2023-12-01T15:43:33 < karlp> probably based on customer feedback.
2023-12-01T15:43:40 < karlp> wba is cut down quite a bit from wb isn't it?
2023-12-01T15:43:44 < karlp> wb has usb.
2023-12-01T15:43:57 < karlp> wba is menat to prelace the bluenrg shit?
2023-12-01T15:44:23 < karlp> yeah, wba is bt only, not like wb.  wb is the "full featured one"
2023-12-01T15:47:17 < Ecco> Makes sense
2023-12-01T15:47:40 < Ecco> I'm looking at ST's doc for firmware update over bluetooth (they call it FUOTA)
2023-12-01T15:47:50 < Ecco> it's not clear to me who's in charge of writing to Flash memory
2023-12-01T15:47:59 < Ecco> Is *everything* included in their static lib?
2023-12-01T16:13:24 < karlp> zyp: this is nice, like how laks links periphs at addresses into socs, instead of tying it all to just "chip" https://renodepedia.renode.io/soc/gd32vf103/?view=peripherals
2023-12-01T16:18:47 < jpa-> https://i.imgur.com/ZQRWgKm.png    karlp do you often dream about snow?
2023-12-01T16:23:15 < Ecco> Teeth falling out -> That's cool, a lot of Brits are livin the dream :)
2023-12-01T16:24:03 < qyx> what, why are so many people dreaming about teeth falling out?
2023-12-01T16:24:13 < jpa-> ask zyp
2023-12-01T16:24:41 < karlp> I don't remember hearing anyone ever tell me about dreaming about snow, or dreaming about teeth falling out...
2023-12-01T16:24:41 < qyx> and snakes, death, pregnancy
2023-12-01T16:25:06 < qyx> I have never dreamt about being pregnant
2023-12-01T16:26:27 < jpa-> i saw a dream about pregnancy tests last night - it was even more complex than covid tests, and i woke up before we got the result
2023-12-01T16:26:52 < jpa-> not sure if that was related to the kid having a flu and crying in his sleep all night..
2023-12-01T16:30:59 < BrainDamage> I dream so rarely that I cannot make a common theme
2023-12-01T16:31:49 < Ecco> What software would you guys recommend for a new STM32 project starting today?
2023-12-01T16:31:58 < Ecco> I'd like to not reinvent the wheel
2023-12-01T16:32:42 < Ecco> So I'd like to get a scheduler, some kind of a HAL I guess
2023-12-01T16:33:14 < jpa-> chibios, if you are ok with the license
2023-12-01T16:33:20 < karlp> big fucking if.
2023-12-01T16:33:36 < karlp> freertos+laks, micropython...
2023-12-01T16:33:42 < jpa-> well, at least you can pay for chibios license, unlike libopencm3
2023-12-01T16:33:45 < Ecco> Hmm, yeah, GPL is not going to be possible
2023-12-01T16:33:54 < Ecco> oh, ok there's a paid option
2023-12-01T16:33:59 < karlp> you didn't see me recommending locm3 either :)
2023-12-01T16:34:08 < karlp> also, lgpl is _marginally_ more feasible.
2023-12-01T16:34:20 < Ecco> What about Zephyr?
2023-12-01T16:34:25 < karlp> what about it :)
2023-12-01T16:34:29 < Ecco> Is it any good?
2023-12-01T16:34:38 < Ecco> For example, I have written an USB stack in the past
2023-12-01T16:34:42 < jpa-> it also depends a lot on what your project is going to do
2023-12-01T16:34:53 < Ecco> I don't know anything about Bluetooth
2023-12-01T16:35:12 < jpa-> for some cases, nuttx is pretty good choice, for others it is just too much
2023-12-01T16:35:13 < Ecco> but I do know that I'd rather *not* write another stack again
2023-12-01T16:35:36 < karlp> writing a bt staack form the hci level is an enormous undertaking, you wouldn't do it.
2023-12-01T16:35:51 < jpa-> if you need to run a bluetooth stack on the CPU, you'll probably want to start by deciding which BT stack you want first
2023-12-01T16:35:51 < karlp> I mean, you can do "just enough" to get the parts you want to maybe work, but it would be horrific.
2023-12-01T16:36:02 < Ecco> ok
2023-12-01T16:36:02 < jpa-> many stacks require a specific RTOS etc.
2023-12-01T16:36:06 < Ecco> Makes sense
2023-12-01T16:36:13 < Ecco> Well, I don't know jack about BT
2023-12-01T16:36:28 < karlp> you're goign to use ST's stack, doing anything else will be madness...
2023-12-01T16:36:29 < Ecco> but like most people I guess I just want to be able to send custom data to/from a smartphone using BT LE
2023-12-01T16:36:33 < jpa-> i would prefer to just push the stack to a separate module, because the vendor BT stack libraries are always total crap
2023-12-01T16:36:33 < Ecco> (on an STM32WBA)
2023-12-01T16:36:55 < karlp> jpa-: but then you just have a vendor bt stack -and_ a separate module?
2023-12-01T16:37:11 < Ecco> what do you mean "separate module"?
2023-12-01T16:37:12 < jpa-> karlp: i mean a separate module with higher level API
2023-12-01T16:37:15 < Ecco> Like a different chip that just does BT?
2023-12-01T16:37:31 < jpa-> yeah
2023-12-01T16:38:39 < Ecco> ok, but now assuming I have to use a WBA
2023-12-01T16:39:06 < Ecco> What's the sanest way to get some form of BT functionality (exchanging a few bytes with a smartphone)
2023-12-01T16:39:14 < qyx> I would probably go hal-ll+freertos now
2023-12-01T16:39:15 < qyx> idk
2023-12-01T16:39:19 < qyx> maybe not
2023-12-01T16:39:53 < Ecco> hal-ll = ? Is "LL" refering to ST's LinkLayer lib?
2023-12-01T16:40:02 < qyx> for some reason I don't like to start any new project with libopencm3 because karlp made me thunking that way
2023-12-01T16:40:54 < jpa-> Ecco: ST HAL comes with two almost identical copies of the code, one of them "low level" and the other one normal HAL
2023-12-01T16:41:09 < Ecco> ok
2023-12-01T16:41:25 < jpa-> both are too low-level to work as a HAL, and neither is low-level enough to offer you good use of the hardware
2023-12-01T16:41:33 < jpa-> but at least you have a choice
2023-12-01T16:42:47 < qyx> what would jpa- use
2023-12-01T16:42:57 < jpa-> chibios
2023-12-01T16:43:13 < qyx> really
2023-12-01T16:43:17 < jpa-> i'm not sure about stm32wba to begin with, but apparently it has the separate cortex-m0 for the bluetooth stuff?
2023-12-01T16:43:35 < qyx> it does not
2023-12-01T16:43:38 < jpa-> ah
2023-12-01T16:43:38 < qyx> wb does
2023-12-01T16:43:39 < Ecco> jpa-: AFAIK, it's not documented
2023-12-01T16:43:56 < jpa-> so you need to get some weird binary blob running alongside your firmware?
2023-12-01T16:44:24 < Ecco> Yes
2023-12-01T16:44:32 < Ecco> AFAIK, you're given a static library and some headers
2023-12-01T16:45:10 < jpa-> yeah.. i've been that route with NRF and silabs chips.. madness
2023-12-01T16:45:20 < Ecco> :-/
2023-12-01T16:45:26 < Ecco> Another completely unrelated question
2023-12-01T16:45:30 < Ecco> WTF is "TrustZone"?
2023-12-01T16:45:40 < Ecco> I'm discovering the M33 core
2023-12-01T16:45:54 < Ecco> and this seems to be the main difference with M4
2023-12-01T16:45:59 < qyx> we have a saying for that mr. Ecco 
2023-12-01T16:46:00 < jpa-> trustzone sounds like something that is designed to prevent you from debugging the binary blob when it crashes
2023-12-01T16:46:07 < qyx> "good morning, grandma"
2023-12-01T16:46:17 < Ecco> hahahaha
2023-12-01T16:46:22 < qyx> it is the root of all evil
2023-12-01T16:46:37 < Ecco> yeah, but seriously tho
2023-12-01T16:46:41 < Ecco> I mean, BT blob aside
2023-12-01T16:46:48 < Ecco> just, in general, WTF is TrustZone?
2023-12-01T16:46:56 < Ecco> I can't see through all their marketing BS
2023-12-01T16:47:03 < Ecco> Is it some kind of better MPU?
2023-12-01T16:47:06 < jpa-> privilege separation between code modules running on the cpu
2023-12-01T16:47:47 < jpa-> yes, basically
2023-12-01T16:47:57 < Ecco> ok, how is it achieved, technically?
2023-12-01T16:48:11 < Ecco> what is the low-level interface that I can use as a software developer?
2023-12-01T16:48:58 < jpa-> refman gives some info, but i strongly suspect the binary blob takes control and locks you out fo it
2023-12-01T16:49:44 < jpa-> it's not particularly complex thing, just a bunch of privilege bits for different peripherals and memory areas
2023-12-01T16:50:47 < Ecco> ok
2023-12-01T16:50:58 < Ecco> Is there a good documentation about trustzone somewhere?
2023-12-01T16:51:29 < jpa-> arm docs are such a mess that i'd start by just reading the stm32wba refman
2023-12-01T16:52:41 < Ecco> ok :)
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2023-12-01T17:33:11 < ventYl> Ecco: TrustZone basically works in a way that you have more than two privilege levels (system - user), and there are certain things only higher privilege levels can do
2023-12-01T17:33:34 < ventYl> and certain peripherals which are only granted access to if you are running in certain privilege level or higher
2023-12-01T17:33:49 < Ecco> ok
2023-12-01T17:33:57 < Ecco> so it's like MPU but w/ more granularity?
2023-12-01T17:34:11 < ventYl> so, you can e.g. provide a software implementation of TPM, which runs in the highest privilege mode as not even OS or hypervisor has ability to affect it (if it is coded right)
2023-12-01T17:34:27 < Ecco> Hmm, got it
2023-12-01T17:34:49 < ventYl> MPU is just one of tools driven by privilege levels
2023-12-01T17:35:03 < ventYl> you can even get access to some registers which are otherwise inaccessible
2023-12-01T17:52:08 < karlp> meh, tried to use this beagle, but DataCenter hangs when it stop capture, and it doesn't even seem to show anything.
2023-12-01T17:59:11 < Ecco> Ok so I'm really wondering how the radio subsytem of WBA works
2023-12-01T17:59:22 < Ecco> -> They say it doesn't use TrustZone
2023-12-01T18:00:26 < Ecco> They do have some interesting doc tho
2023-12-01T18:00:27 < Ecco> https://github.com/STMicroelectronics/STM32CubeWBA/tree/main/Middlewares/ST/STM32_WPAN/ble/stack/doc
2023-12-01T18:00:32 < Ecco> It's… hidden, but interesting
2023-12-01T18:02:38 < karlp> that's  jus the docs for the wpan middleware.
2023-12-01T18:02:39 < Ecco> I think it's really just that they don't want to document all the radio registers
2023-12-01T18:02:42 < karlp> you use that code tot talk to the blobs
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2023-12-01T18:02:45 < Ecco> yes, but it's interesting
2023-12-01T18:02:53 < karlp> you must be new to radios in the embedded world :)
2023-12-01T18:02:57 < Ecco> Absolutely
2023-12-01T18:03:21 < karlp> the vendors and the fcc are terrrrrrrrrrribly afraid taht someone will do "bad things" 
2023-12-01T18:03:38 < Ecco> well, seeing how everyone lost their shit with the Flipper Zero… :-D
2023-12-01T18:04:12 < Ecco> I guess what happens here is that the blob really is just some code that runs on the host CPU
2023-12-01T18:04:16 < Ecco> there is no secondary core
2023-12-01T18:04:24 < Ecco> and ST simply did not document the radio registers
2023-12-01T18:04:36 < Ecco> and the static lib just, well, uses those registers
2023-12-01T18:04:51 < karlp> ok, total phase works on windows in a vm...
2023-12-01T18:05:00 < karlp> now I can try comparing working/non-öworking....
2023-12-01T18:05:32 < Ecco> would that make sense? Then I wonder, why did they bother w/ a separate core on WB?
2023-12-01T18:06:13 < karlp> as has been mentioned, running a blob on the same core has fairly more invasive requirements on your own app...
2023-12-01T18:06:30 < Ecco> like what?
2023-12-01T18:06:49 < Ecco> If the blog is buggy and messes your memory / crashes?
2023-12-01T18:11:41 < Ecco> Also, you guys never mentioned ThreadX (with the new license) and Zephyr
2023-12-01T18:11:47 < Ecco> Are those any good? Or are they trash?
2023-12-01T18:11:52 < Ecco> (generally speaking)
2023-12-01T18:11:58 < karlp> threadx has been annoucned to have a new license, but it's not ready yet.
2023-12-01T18:12:08 < karlp> so unless you've already been using it, I can't imagine wanting to start...
2023-12-01T18:13:36 < Ecco> well, it's source-available right now, right?
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2023-12-01T18:25:09 < karlp> well, working and non-working usb enum are both showing shit tons of sof frame count errors, and ls/fs switching shits
2023-12-01T18:25:19 < karlp> heh, pluggin in an _orbtrace_ gives _zero_ errors :)
2023-12-01T18:25:41 < karlp> (it doesn't enumerate either, but some of this might be the scanner)
2023-12-01T18:30:52 < bitmask> how hard is silicon steel? is it difficult to drill through?
2023-12-01T18:35:42 < ventYl> Ecco: e.g. softdevice on nRF has strict requirements on where it will place its data segment. you have to comply. you have to give that memory to it, you have to give it callbacks it wants as often it wants and you have to link certain interrupts to it...
2023-12-01T18:35:59 < ventYl> our of these, the hardcoded RAM block address and size is probably the most invasive one
2023-12-01T18:39:13 < jpa-> i found most invasive that debugger breakpoints mess up everything
2023-12-01T18:41:39 < ventYl> some tight timing requirements?
2023-12-01T18:42:16 < jpa-> yeah, ble always has tight timing
2023-12-01T18:43:46 < jpa-> and when it runs on same core as your application, BLE communications will break if you use breakpoints.. and i don't remember whether it was nRF or silabs that actually went directly into assert fail if a timer interrupt was late
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2023-12-01T18:46:13 < jbo> wtf is this STM32H7 LQFP-100 pin-out... MMC interface pins are scattered around the whole package :D
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2023-12-01T18:49:26 < jpa-> doesn't look like that to me (STM32H742)
2023-12-01T18:49:43 < jbo> I'm doing STM32H7A3
2023-12-01T18:50:36 < jpa-> i wonder why they started putting letters in the number
2023-12-01T18:53:16 < Steffanx> nRF does that for sure jpa-
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2023-12-01T20:29:35 < zyp> karlp, yeah, I played with renode around the time I did laks v2, I might have gotten some inspiration from there
2023-12-01T20:32:22 < mawk> zyp if a, b, c are real numbers such that a+b+c = 2 and a²+b²+c² = 12, what are the minimum and maximum values c can take?
2023-12-01T20:39:33 < mawk> this is the intersection of the hyperplane perpendicular to (1; 1; 1) and passing by the point (2/3; 2/3; 2/3) 
2023-12-01T20:39:55 < mawk> with the sphere of radius √12 centered at the origin 
2023-12-01T20:40:08 < mawk> but it might not be the only way to think about it
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2023-12-01T21:00:39 < ventYl> friggin' 500 megabytes
2023-12-01T21:01:27 < ventYl> wtf is so large in SDK? not even Cube-like crap is shipped with it
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2023-12-01T23:53:20 < nomorekaki> did you order cybertruck?
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2023-12-01T23:55:59 < Ecco> ventYl: Well, I still don't really understand STM32WBA but the static library doesn't seem to require any specific memory layout
2023-12-01T23:56:32 < Ecco> it does require a timer system (i.e. it gives youa  function to call back), but it looks like you're free to implement this however you like
--- Day changed la joulu 02 2023
2023-12-02T00:05:28 < Ecco> Also, is it possible to build ST sample code on Linux?
2023-12-02T00:05:32 < Ecco> They dont' provide makfiles :-/
2023-12-02T00:08:08 < qyx> karlp: have you considered redoing locm3 startup + linker script generator from the scratch under a permissive license?
2023-12-02T00:08:13 < qyx> not you namely
2023-12-02T00:08:40 < zyp> I think that's called laks
2023-12-02T00:09:01 < qyx> is c99 enough for that?
2023-12-02T00:09:21 < qyx> ok screw that
2023-12-02T00:09:29 < qyx> maybe I could actually use c++
2023-12-02T00:09:53 < Ecco> How am I supposed to build ST's sample code?
2023-12-02T00:10:07 < Ecco> Apparently they use IAR? A proprietary compiler that only runs on Windows????
2023-12-02T00:10:16 < qyx> idk I have never tried that
2023-12-02T00:10:19 < Ecco> I mean… WTF?
2023-12-02T00:14:20 < qyx> zyp: does it work with neqlibs sbrk/malloc/free?
2023-12-02T00:14:29 < qyx> *newlib's
2023-12-02T00:14:42 < qyx> browsing it
2023-12-02T00:15:46 < zyp> unsure if that's properly integrated yet, but yes I have code usin it
2023-12-02T00:16:19 < qyx> dev_v2 is the current branch?
2023-12-02T00:17:32 < zyp> yeah
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2023-12-02T00:19:13 < qyx> I'll give it a go
2023-12-02T00:19:23 < qyx> you don't even use cmsis for reg definitions?
2023-12-02T00:19:29 < zyp> no
2023-12-02T00:21:17 < qyx> may I actualky borrow it under bsd2?
2023-12-02T00:22:25 < zyp> that's what COPYING says
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2023-12-02T00:39:04 < Ecco> LOL
2023-12-02T00:39:11 < Ecco> STM32IDE mentions unreleased parts :)
2023-12-02T00:39:32 < Ecco> STM32WBA55G-DK1
2023-12-02T00:50:59 < zyp> that's just a devkit for an already released part, hardly secret
2023-12-02T00:55:00 < qyx> aurora alert
2023-12-02T00:55:05 < qyx> but it rains
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2023-12-02T01:09:23 < karlp> qyx: yah, what zyp said, laks has sufficient startup and linker script for me...
2023-12-02T01:09:35 < karlp> do you want something more "plain old c" friendly?
2023-12-02T01:10:16 < karlp> I've said before, that redoing "libopencm3" with just plain cmsis headers, but the libopencm3 style c based startup and linker generation might be appealing, but... it's not something I'm going to spend time on.
2023-12-02T01:11:03 < karlp> I've done laks startup for ch58x shits, and just "plain old C" modules ripped out of the wch source demos too, c++ and c linkage is "easy" these days...
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2023-12-02T01:20:08 < karlp> so pb8 is boot0, and also can_rx.  so you need a 10k or somethign pull_down_ to reliably boot, but don't you normally want a pullup on serial rx shits?
2023-12-02T01:20:47 < karlp> do I put like a 220k pulldown, and then use internal pullups and hope it's enough? sounds teh suck.
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2023-12-02T01:32:09 < karlp> fuckinghell, the two pins for fdcan1rx are ... USB_DM, and Boot0.
2023-12-02T01:32:16 < karlp> like... really?
2023-12-02T01:32:47 < karlp> unless I go to lqfp80...
2023-12-02T01:38:09 < Ecco> dumb question: how do you use the "progress bar" at the bottom of a multimeter?
2023-12-02T01:41:06 < lemmi> usually those are higher refresh rate measurements but less accurate. you use it to detect small wiggles in your measurement that might otherwise be invisible by looking at the numbers only
2023-12-02T01:54:38 < qyx> karlp: weak pulldown and then a pullup attached to a gpio?
2023-12-02T01:55:00 < qyx> and no, you don't need pullup on canrx
2023-12-02T01:55:09 < karlp> that's where Im headed, yeah, btu would be nice to know what has been done before :)
2023-12-02T01:55:34 < qyx> is can phy can-rx really an ope drain outpit?
2023-12-02T01:55:34 < karlp> if I dn't  need a pullup on canrx like on uart rx, then no problem.
2023-12-02T01:55:53 < qyx> isn't it pushpull?
2023-12-02T01:55:59 < karlp> just /nme shgrugs
2023-12-02T01:55:59 < qyx> and also
2023-12-02T01:56:12 < qyx> if it is, it stays up in udle
2023-12-02T01:56:15 < karlp> I'm used to rs485, where not having a rx  pullup would often give you null bytes on rx
2023-12-02T01:56:22 < qyx> so pull down strap would not work
2023-12-02T01:56:38 < qyx> idk
2023-12-02T01:56:38 < karlp> well, would work, just burn current?
2023-12-02T01:57:12 < qyx> it will burn current and doesn't work
2023-12-02T01:57:26 < qyx> becauseit would not be able to pull boot0 down
2023-12-02T01:57:34 < qyx> even with burning
2023-12-02T01:57:46 < karlp> oh, right.
2023-12-02T01:58:05 < qyx> idk probably time to check the ds
2023-12-02T01:58:08 < karlp> this might eb workable for me, because I'm jumpering the can transcevier power supply, as it's an "optional extra re-use of this board"
2023-12-02T01:58:22 < karlp> and you only need this shit for dfu updates
2023-12-02T01:58:25 < karlp> gonan sleep on it.
2023-12-02T02:00:11 < qyx> not a bad idea
2023-12-02T02:19:09 < zyp> fuck boot0, add your own bootloader with custom trigger if you need one
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2023-12-02T14:19:52 < nomorekaki> do you use restrict keyword - ever?
2023-12-02T14:25:24 < zyp> no, C++ doesn't have restrict
2023-12-02T14:26:40 < nomorekaki> it seems most of the time restrict is usable
2023-12-02T14:27:10 < nomorekaki> maybe
2023-12-02T14:27:27 < nomorekaki> and it will result in optimizations
2023-12-02T14:27:51 < nomorekaki> need to learn more
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2023-12-02T15:19:54 < qyx> live the freedom, do not restrict yourself
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2023-12-02T16:02:41 < jbo> :D
2023-12-02T16:04:02 < jpa-> i have used restrict sometimes when i determined it would help
2023-12-02T16:06:16 < Steffanx> Did it make you happy jpa- ?
2023-12-02T16:10:21 < jbo> restrict stupidity;
2023-12-02T16:40:53 < jbo> how are the netherlands doing, Steffanx ?
2023-12-02T16:40:58 < jbo> you got your own little trump now :>
2023-12-02T16:50:39 < Steffanx> Is that what swisser media is trying to sell you jbo ?
2023-12-02T16:58:09 < jbo> Steffanx, I dunno, I don't really do media
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2023-12-02T17:18:21 < nomorekaki> can I have like anonymous variable
2023-12-02T17:18:59 < nomorekaki> if I'm making a comparison of struct type's items
2023-12-02T17:19:21 < nomorekaki> hmm
2023-12-02T17:22:17 < nomorekaki> nvm
2023-12-02T17:24:31 < Steffanx> lol nevermind then. Im not even sure what the question was.
2023-12-02T17:25:18 < antto> he wanted a nomorevari
2023-12-02T17:33:43 < nomorekaki> structtypevar.value != novar.field.first == 1
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2023-12-02T17:37:30 < nomorekaki12> but .value and .field.first cannot be compared
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2023-12-02T17:37:38 < nomorekaki12> then I said nvm
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2023-12-02T18:18:00 < jbo> hello everybody
2023-12-02T18:18:06 < jbo> are we feeling fancy today?
2023-12-02T18:23:57 < qyx> you bet
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2023-12-02T19:02:00 < karlp> zyp: this is a zero software project, and if I have buttons already, and usb, then the rom dfu bootloader is appealing.  writing my own to go around boot0 is not real appealing at all :)
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2023-12-02T19:05:43 < qyx> if it is a hw only project, check the requirements
2023-12-02T19:05:58 < qyx> do they list it?
2023-12-02T19:06:12 < qyx> #yolo karlp, lava is approaching
2023-12-02T19:06:33 < karlp> no, it's hw only for me. goal is to use QMK off the shelf...
2023-12-02T19:06:36 < karlp> of course there'll be software.
2023-12-02T19:06:52 < karlp> teh canfd bit is so I can potentially re-use the boards as test can slaves.
2023-12-02T19:07:07 < karlp> have some "ios" (switches and leds) on can modules....
2023-12-02T19:07:46 < karlp> lava is approaching where?
2023-12-02T19:09:16 < qyx> in the long term, you don't have time for making other people live easier!
2023-12-02T19:09:30 < karlp> what now?
2023-12-02T19:11:21 < qyx> idk I was referring to the boot0 issue, if the usage of the internal bootloader is not in the requirements, just let it go, don't even consider it for no reason
2023-12-02T19:11:24 < karlp> gonna put a 100k pull down on boot0.  if it gets in teh way of can, and am going to use the boards for can, will use the opt shit to just turn it off, and use a debugger if I need to.
2023-12-02T19:11:28 < qyx> at least I would not, because time is precious
2023-12-02T19:11:39 < karlp> time rewriting bootloaders is fucking precious too.
2023-12-02T19:11:55 < qyx> is it a work proj?
2023-12-02T19:11:58 < karlp> hell no.
2023-12-02T19:12:04 < qyx> oh then I said nothing
2023-12-02T19:12:06 < qyx> sorry
2023-12-02T19:12:10 < karlp> this is my keyboard replacement controller.
2023-12-02T19:12:23 < qyx> for our own things we are allowed to to anything we want
2023-12-02T19:12:30 < karlp> putting can on it, so that when jlc makes five of them, I can potentially do something with them.
2023-12-02T19:12:33 < qyx> for work proj, MVP
2023-12-02T19:12:34 < karlp> given I only have one keyboard...
2023-12-02T19:18:30 < zyp> that's a weird form of shoehorning
2023-12-02T19:18:40 < karlp> sure...
2023-12-02T19:19:12 < karlp> well, it's worked for me in teh past.  made a test board for one thing, dangled some ios out for somethingelse.  used it for both very successfully.
2023-12-02T19:19:18 < nomorekaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHTVqqcqous musiikkia
2023-12-02T19:27:11 < nomorekaki> rather fresh musics 2021
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2023-12-02T19:30:43 < qyx> karlp: why did you lie to me that tps709 is 2x the current of 706?!
2023-12-02T19:31:06 < qyx> or was it zyp
2023-12-02T19:34:38 < karlp> I just said 709 can do much higher input voltage, it's otherwise ~same isn't it?
2023-12-02T19:35:03  * qyx confused
2023-12-02T19:37:02 < qyx> yeah they are probably the same, just different pass transistor
2023-12-02T19:37:12 < qyx> 709 is more dropout voltage, 30 Vin max
2023-12-02T19:37:25 < qyx> 706 is the low dropout version, 6.5 Vin max
2023-12-02T19:37:51  * qyx rmw's his head
2023-12-02T19:41:35 < nomorekaki> qyx: read de datasheet
2023-12-02T19:43:28 < zyp> jpa-, I did a shitty «figure out my encoder» script: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/DUxMK
2023-12-02T19:44:17 < zyp> seems to work well: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/nB5wd
2023-12-02T19:50:33 < nomorekaki> new robot videos zyp?
2023-12-02T19:51:36 < zyp> no, just doing desktop testing
2023-12-02T19:51:43 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/MEdJN.png
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2023-12-02T20:07:12 < nomorekaki> did you make your own oscope?
2023-12-02T20:07:28 < zyp> no, that's linuxcnc
2023-12-02T20:08:32 < zyp> but I've considered making something that lets me stream data from the fpga faster and visualize it
2023-12-02T20:09:15 < zyp> linuxcnc updates at 1kHz, and that's not particularly good when I'd like to see values changing at a couple hundred kHz
2023-12-02T20:11:40 < nomorekaki> it's time
2023-12-02T20:11:58 < nomorekaki> to plug some frontends to your usb3 debugger
2023-12-02T20:21:58 < qyx> zyp: a gnuradio compatible adc + a suitable frontend?
2023-12-02T20:22:12 < qyx> oh fpga
2023-12-02T20:22:40 < qyx> so just an input block for gr(c)?
2023-12-02T20:22:46 < qyx> or not suitable at all?
2023-12-02T20:26:57 < jpa-> zyp: that's the way i do it too :)
2023-12-02T20:27:32 < jpa-> you could spin around to average out any cogging, but that's unnecessarily fancy
2023-12-02T20:28:26 < jpa-> or it actually does that?
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2023-12-02T20:42:53 < zyp> jpa-, ah, no, after zeroing the encoder I just spin one electrical rotation, let it settle, spin back one electrical rotation, let it settle again and take the average of the two
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2023-12-02T20:56:56 < srk> another pciE fpga? :D
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2023-12-02T23:39:02 < qyx> motor pros, is induction motor control hard?
2023-12-02T23:39:27 < qyx> is it just a V/F curve and open-loop control?
2023-12-02T23:39:52 < zyp> I've been wondering the same
2023-12-02T23:42:34 < qyx> https://www.st.com/en/applications/industrial-motor-control/3-phase-field-oriented-control-foc.html
2023-12-02T23:43:26 < qyx> som they are usually driven closed-loop
2023-12-02T23:43:36 < qyx> for tigher control
--- Day changed su joulu 03 2023
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2023-12-03T00:58:45 < qyx> ti webench power designer not working? since yesterday
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2023-12-03T09:21:21 < jpa-> qyx: catphish is the local expert for induction motor control
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2023-12-03T12:36:37 < qyx> how are those silicone anti-slip "standoffs" called? usually used on devboards from the bottom
2023-12-03T12:37:49 < PaulFertser> rubber domes?
2023-12-03T12:39:17 < qyx> yeah but google disagrees
2023-12-03T12:39:21 < Steffanx> I'd Google rubber adhesive feet
2023-12-03T12:40:30 < qyx> "silicone bumper pad" is apparently the correct term
2023-12-03T12:40:38 < qyx> it took only 10 minutes to figure out
2023-12-03T12:40:50 < PaulFertser> aliexpress doesn't always agree with google though
2023-12-03T12:42:13 < qyx> yeah ali says "anti-collision particles"
2023-12-03T12:42:25 < qyx> sounds usable for LHC too
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2023-12-03T12:46:13 < PaulFertser> Yeah, "rubber dome feet" on aliexpress
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2023-12-03T13:56:38 < analoq> needs some guidance regarding picking the right stm. I want usb without an external crystal, >=3x pwm, >=1xadc and a discovery board should exist. currently i am looking at the STM32L053R8T6
2023-12-03T14:02:18 < qyx> L053 is specific, it has a segmented LCD driver
2023-12-03T14:02:29 < qyx> and I am not sure L0 has crystalless usb
2023-12-03T14:03:04 < analoq> on that im pretty sure
2023-12-03T14:03:17 < qyx> oh yes
2023-12-03T14:03:33 < analoq> but i didnt know about the lcd driver. then again it shouldnt hurt to have if im not running out of pins
2023-12-03T14:05:04 < analoq> what im trying to build is a fan controller for pc fans (pwm) with the thermal sensor input and an usb interface to interact with the controller.
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2023-12-03T14:25:52 < jpa-> analoq: L053/L052/L051 seems fine choice, whatever is easiest to get
2023-12-03T14:26:10 < jpa-> they are probably 100% software compatible if you don't need special peripherals
2023-12-03T14:26:50 < jpa-> or actually L051 doesn't have USB :)
2023-12-03T14:27:20 < qyx> yeah 052 is +usb, 053 is +lcd
2023-12-03T14:27:25 < qyx> iirc
2023-12-03T14:27:50 < qyx> 053 has this weird bug when using lcd/i2c at the same time
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2023-12-03T14:43:22 < analoq> hm, I don't think there's a nucleo board for the 052, so i think i'll go with the 053 but will consider the 052 for the actual board
2023-12-03T14:55:13 < jpa-> makes sense
2023-12-03T14:55:28 < jpa-> what software are you planning to run on it?
2023-12-03T14:55:43 < jpa-> it's a good idea to check that whatever you prefer supports the hardware
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2023-12-03T15:49:50 < zyp> IIRC 053 is just 052 with TSC or segment LCD or something
2023-12-03T15:50:01 < zyp> I've prototyped 052 stuff on the 053 discovery before
2023-12-03T15:50:10 < zyp> I wouldn't use it today though
2023-12-03T15:50:20 < zyp> g0b1 is my current goto usb chip
2023-12-03T15:52:22 < zyp> hmm, seems there's no discovery for g0b1, just nucleo and they don't have usb connector
2023-12-03T15:53:32 < zyp> then again, lowend g4 was cheaper than g0b1 last I checked
2023-12-03T15:53:35 < zyp> e.g. g431
2023-12-03T15:53:52 < zyp> so I'd consider either of those
2023-12-03T15:55:38 < zyp> the price difference is a result of g0b1 starting at 128k flash and 144k ram, while g431 starts at 32k/32k
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2023-12-03T16:51:27 < analoq> zyp: thanks. kind of annoying that none of these boards have dedicated usb ports. :<
2023-12-03T16:52:36 < qyx> I vote for g4 too
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2023-12-03T17:50:50 < fenugrec> jadew: ping
2023-12-03T17:51:43 < nomorekaki> fun(&array[i])
2023-12-03T17:52:12 < nomorekaki> can I pass that argument as constant pointer?
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2023-12-03T17:53:07 < nomorekaki> hmm
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2023-12-03T17:55:39 < nomorekaki> do I need to if function has defined the argument as contant pointer
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2023-12-03T18:05:32 < nomorekaki> fix'd
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2023-12-03T18:08:28 < Steffanx> Good job nomorekaki 
2023-12-03T18:09:46 < nomorekaki> just add more volatile const to them and its fix'd
2023-12-03T18:10:16 < nomorekaki> better have more
2023-12-03T18:10:22 < nomorekaki> doesn't complain that way
2023-12-03T18:14:18 < sauce> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsTsg7R6kPY musics
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2023-12-03T19:25:02 < catphish> qyx: there are 3 ways to control an induction motor, depending on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go, but a fixed V/Hz curve works fine for most cases
2023-12-03T19:25:25 < qyx> great
2023-12-03T19:25:35 < qyx> how many kW did you get?
2023-12-03T19:36:53 < qyx> I am starting to experience information loss from my head compartment
2023-12-03T19:37:09 < qyx> is it inevitable?
2023-12-03T19:37:15 < qyx> does it worsen over time?
2023-12-03T19:37:45 < qyx> I bet I have been browsing those 10base-t1s chips recently and yet I don't remember what the outcome was
2023-12-03T19:37:54 < qyx> I even talked to somebody here and I don't remember who to
2023-12-03T19:38:08 < qyx> was the microchip part the better one?
2023-12-03T19:39:18 < qyx> end it is not even the first time now
2023-12-03T19:39:21 < qyx> 2023-11-13T22:33:50 < qyx> and I completely forget which t1s mac+phy I have chosen in the past
2023-12-03T19:40:37 < nomorekaki> qyx: any tractor sketches?
2023-12-03T19:41:03 < nomorekaki> qyx: it's just winter dementia
2023-12-03T19:41:11 < nomorekaki> you forget it by next winter
2023-12-03T19:41:19 < qyx> nomorekaki: nope I tried the wheel arrangement yesterday irl
2023-12-03T19:41:27 < qyx> and I found out 1000 mm wheelbase is too small
2023-12-03T19:41:40 < nomorekaki> do you have a budget?
2023-12-03T19:42:05 < qyx> you mean if I did the BOM or if I have the resources already allocated?
2023-12-03T19:44:27 < qyx> I'll start doing those interesting things once I solve all the problems in by backlog
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2023-12-03T20:28:50 < analoq> what does the 'N' in TIM2_CH1N stand for?
2023-12-03T20:29:02 < analoq> i see it in the table for alternate pin functionality
2023-12-03T20:29:03 < qyx> a complementary (negative) output
2023-12-03T20:29:30 < analoq> thanks
2023-12-03T20:37:14 < jpa-> it's name is negative, but you can configure it to be positive :)
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2023-12-03T20:51:35 < analoq> jpa-: i assume then the otherone will be negative though :p
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2023-12-03T22:36:23 < machinehum> hola
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2023-12-03T23:40:20 < karlp> sauce: oh cool, I actually just watched that pigs pigs pigs pigs video the other day, pretty neat
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2023-12-03T23:56:16 < analoq> is there a commonly used dfu capable bootloader for stm32?
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--- Day changed ma joulu 04 2023
2023-12-04T00:03:19 < PaulFertser> The one in ROM? :)
2023-12-04T00:04:23 < PaulFertser> analoq: for old chip there's https://github.com/davidgfnet/stm32-dfu-bootloader
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2023-12-04T00:27:07 < catphish> qyx: sorry, wandered off and didn't see your repy earlier
2023-12-04T00:28:01 < catphish> qyx: my induction motor setup is currently limited to 150kW, but the algorithm and the power are really not related
2023-12-04T00:28:49 < qyx> catphish: np, what battery voltage do you have?
2023-12-04T00:29:02 < analoq> PaulFertser: aww, thought there would be many more projects for something like that :/
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2023-12-04T00:29:38 < catphish> qyx: 300V DC
2023-12-04T00:30:49 < qyx> whoa 500 A
2023-12-04T00:31:17 < catphish> qyx: i started with V/Hz but my current algorithm is a little more complex, it works as follows:
2023-12-04T00:31:17 < catphish> 1) The output frequency is the input frequency plus a slip proportional to the requested torque
2023-12-04T00:31:17 < catphish> 2) The current is monitored and the voltage is increased or decreased to get to a desired current, which is also proportional to requested torque
2023-12-04T00:31:59 < catphish> battery current is limited to 500A, motor current is limited to 560A
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2023-12-04T00:32:30 < catphish> *560A RMS (800A peak)
2023-12-04T00:33:18 < catphish> 500A+ is needed to accelerate a car at a deccent rate :D
2023-12-04T00:33:18 < qyx> so regulating the current closed-loop by manipulating voltage?
2023-12-04T00:33:27 < catphish> qyx: yes exactly
2023-12-04T00:34:02 < qyx> and the slip regulation is because you want to develop a torque, which is specific to car usage, true?
2023-12-04T00:34:25 < qyx> because for other constant rpm applications I don't really need to "add torque"
2023-12-04T00:35:20 < catphish> well, controlling torque is kind of a car thing, yes, but for other applications you need to decide what your goal is in order to design the algorithm
2023-12-04T00:36:47 < qyx> k thanks
2023-12-04T00:36:52 < PaulFertser> analoq: probably there are many more, what is your target MCU?
2023-12-04T00:37:11 < catphish> for a constant RPM application, you still need to decide how to accelerate from stationary, usually you will want to output some frequency slightly higher than the actual measured RPM until you get up to speed
2023-12-04T00:37:27 < analoq> PaulFertser: haven't really picked one yet. i was recommended the g431 earlier
2023-12-04T00:37:46 < analoq> currently im prototyping on a stm32f411
2023-12-04T00:38:01 < qyx> catphish: can't you output the nominal frequency and limit the startup current manipulating the voltage?
2023-12-04T00:38:33 < PaulFertser> analoq: those have DFU bootloader in ROM, so what are you after?
2023-12-04T00:38:51 < analoq> oh? they come with them included? i had no idea :O
2023-12-04T00:39:13 < catphish> qyx: so for example, if your target is 240V @ 50Hz, then once the motor is up to speed, you just send 50Hz / 240V, simple, but if the motor is spinning at 10Hz, you will wat to be outputting 15Hz (ie some fixed amount more than the measured, but never more than the target), and a proportional voltage accordingly: 240 x 15 / 50 = 72V
2023-12-04T00:39:50 < catphish> qyx: you can, but it wont be optimal
2023-12-04T00:40:41 < catphish> wiht V/Hz, the voltage is usually proportional to your output frequncy, not the speed of the rotor
2023-12-04T00:40:42 < qyx> I understand I can't lower the frequency without lowering the voltage, but I have not seen anything stopping me from outputting higher frequency for the corresponding voltage
2023-12-04T00:41:52 < catphish> you definitley can just output 50Hz all the time, but i'm not certain if setting voltage proportional to rotor speed would work well
2023-12-04T00:42:46 < catphish> i think it would work but 1) you'd need more "boost" to overcome the inductance of the motor at 50Hz and 2) it will be less efficient
2023-12-04T00:43:01 < catphish> i don't know if any controller actually does that
2023-12-04T00:43:07 < catphish> but it will 100% work
2023-12-04T00:43:15 < qyx> I meant for spinup only
2023-12-04T00:43:25 < qyx> idk nevermind
2023-12-04T00:43:38 < catphish> yeah, it'll definitely work, this is essentially how motors were traditionally started
2023-12-04T00:43:51 < catphish> they would wire in star, then switch to delta once running
2023-12-04T00:43:53 < qyx> I just wanted to say, set V/HZ according to the desired rpm
2023-12-04T00:43:59 < qyx> but at the same time limit the maximum current
2023-12-04T00:44:09 < qyx> so it does not do high inrush during acceleration
2023-12-04T00:44:30 < qyx> so when accelerating, the voltage will be limited to a lower value than the V/Hz curve is
2023-12-04T00:44:35 < catphish> you don't set V/Hz to a *desired* RPM, the desired RPM is your output frequency
2023-12-04T00:44:38 < qyx> but when spun up, it will settle at V/Hz
2023-12-04T00:44:44 < catphish> you set it to the *measured* RPM
2023-12-04T00:45:19 < qyx> oh so it is not openloop and you need to know the measured rpm?
2023-12-04T00:45:28 < qyx> nd set voltage accordingly?
2023-12-04T00:45:40 < catphish> well, let me start over
2023-12-04T00:45:44 < qyx> waa
2023-12-04T00:45:49 < qyx> ok, let it be for now
2023-12-04T00:45:53 < qyx> I'll read something more
2023-12-04T00:45:58 < catphish> the mot basic form of induction motor control is open loop V/Hz control
2023-12-04T00:45:58 < qyx> and then ask
2023-12-04T00:46:18 < catphish> you decide how fast you want the motor to spin, and you output that frequency, and a voltage to match
2023-12-04T00:46:47 < catphish> so if you want 1500RPM, you output 25Hz and 50% voltage, simple as that
2023-12-04T00:47:21 < catphish> the important thig is that electrical frequency is what controls the motor speed, NOT voltage
2023-12-04T00:47:47 < catphish> the voltage is secondary to frequency, you set it only to maintain efficiency (ie not overheat), not to set the speed
2023-12-04T00:48:00 < qyx> yes
2023-12-04T00:48:12 < catphish> ^ understand this first, because it's the basics of V/Hz control
2023-12-04T00:48:43 < qyx> this is the steady state situation, I understand that
2023-12-04T00:48:57 < qyx> but we were talking about accelerating to the steady state
2023-12-04T00:49:21 < catphish> right, and this sae algo can be used to accelerate a motor up to speed, you start at 0Hz/0V and increase both proportionaly up to your target steady state
2023-12-04T00:49:34 < catphish> *this same
2023-12-04T00:50:04 < qyx> still using openloop, right? on a reasonably selected curve
2023-12-04T00:50:09 < qyx> over time
2023-12-04T00:50:20 < catphish> this can be totally open loop, if you know your motor will accelerate in 30 seconds then you increase from 0V 0Hz up to 230V 50Hz over the course of 30s
2023-12-04T00:50:26 < catphish> right
2023-12-04T00:50:44 < qyx> but if I do that faster, the current will increase
2023-12-04T00:50:52 < qyx> other than than, it wont hurt the motor
2023-12-04T00:50:58 < catphish> if you know the load this perfectly fine, or you have an operator doing this manually with a kno
2023-12-04T00:51:00 < catphish> *knob
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2023-12-04T00:51:37 < catphish> you can skip straight to full voltage / full current, whether it damages the motor depends on how hot it gets while accelerating up to speed
2023-12-04T00:51:42 < qyx> in the extreme I may set 230V/50Hz in a jump, exactly like when starting off the grid
2023-12-04T00:51:53 < catphish> ideally you should match the increaee with the motor's ability to accelerate its load
2023-12-04T00:51:58 < catphish> right
2023-12-04T00:52:03 < qyx> ok, understood
2023-12-04T00:52:14 < qyx> and now, I may combine that approach with a current feedback
2023-12-04T00:52:42 < qyx> so accelerate slowly, if the current rises too much, accelerate even slower, etc.
2023-12-04T00:52:44 < catphish> to be 100% optimal, you measure the speed of the motor, and set the output frequency to some fixed amount more than what is measured (like +5Hz)
2023-12-04T00:53:10 < catphish> or yes, you could measure current, and increase voltage and freuency together to maintain constant current
2023-12-04T00:53:31 < qyx> k then, that was exactly what I wanted to say before :P
2023-12-04T00:53:40 < catphish> excellent
2023-12-04T00:54:04 < qyx> I suppose I can't measure the RPM sensorless, can I?
2023-12-04T00:54:22 < catphish> but to be clear, no matter how you control it, the voltage and frequency should remain proportional
2023-12-04T00:54:27 < catphish> no you can't
2023-12-04T00:55:00 < catphish> for your application, measuring current and scaling voltage and frequency together to maintain constant current should be optimal
2023-12-04T00:55:15 < catphish> in fact i wonder why i never tried that
2023-12-04T00:55:20 < qyx> I plan to actually measure the hydraulic fluid pressure
2023-12-04T00:55:41 < qyx> so I want to regulate to achieve the desired pressure but not reaching the current limit at the same time
2023-12-04T00:55:52 < catphish> there's one more caveat - "boost"
2023-12-04T00:56:22 < catphish> if you look at a V/Hz graph, you will see that they're not actually proportional, there's also an offset called boost
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2023-12-04T00:56:37 < qyx> I have seen that in the vfd config
2023-12-04T00:56:59 < catphish> it's not complicated, you just add a fixed voltage (probably around 20-50V on)
2023-12-04T00:57:12 < qyx> and the reason for that is?
2023-12-04T00:58:26 < catphish> V/Hz is designed to compensate for the inductive resistance, and the back EMF, which vary with frequncy and motor speed respectively
2023-12-04T00:58:34 < catphish> but the motor also has a fixed resistance to overcome
2023-12-04T00:59:07 < catphish> and also some other reasons to do with magnetizing the rotor that i don't fully understand
2023-12-04T00:59:36 < qyx> ah
2023-12-04T00:59:44 < catphish> basically most (but not all) of the needed voltage is proportional to the frequency/speed
2023-12-04T01:00:07 < qyx> I guess I will play with a small 200 W motor first
2023-12-04T01:00:16 < qyx> I have one such available too, 3 phase
2023-12-04T01:00:57 < qyx> one more question, what frequency do you use for pwm?
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2023-12-04T01:02:12 < catphish> around 10kHz
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2023-12-04T01:04:32 < catphish> it's either 8.8kHz or 17kHz, i forget which, but anything in the region of 10kHz should work well
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2023-12-04T02:12:09 < mawk> 16.384kHz
2023-12-04T02:12:20 < mawk> the best frequency 
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2023-12-04T11:12:39 < jpa-> qyx: remember also that off-the-shelf VFDs for induction motors are cheap and easy to use :)
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2023-12-04T12:32:21 < karlp> heh. tivaware usb driver memory allocaiton is suuuuper wasteful.
2023-12-04T12:32:53 < karlp> it uses a separate chunk for enumerating descriptors for all possible devices, 
2023-12-04T12:33:30 < karlp> rather than just a single buffer. so if you ight have a device with a 150 byte descriptor, you need to alloate 150 * as many devicesa s you will ever support.
2023-12-04T12:33:39 < karlp> anywayyyy.
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2023-12-04T14:03:41 < jadew> Google job listing: "All candidates that self-identify as Black (including Preto(a) or Pardo(a) identifications), according to the color or race used by the Brazilian Institute of Geography and Statistics Foundation – IBGE), will be evaluated for this role."
2023-12-04T14:04:36 < jadew> Fight racism with racism!
2023-12-04T14:05:25 < jpa-> are you feeling discriminated yet?
2023-12-04T14:05:29 < jadew> The job title has "Black Community Inclusion" in it.
2023-12-04T14:06:08 < jadew> Must be great having a title that says "I'm here because I'm black"
2023-12-04T14:12:37 < jadew> There's a guy who looks over the list of employees and occasionally concludes: "We need more blacks!"
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2023-12-04T15:52:25 < qyx> jpa-: yeah but not for 15 kW and 400 VDC input
2023-12-04T16:06:05 < jpa-> most can take DC input, but yeah, 15 kW necessarily costs closer to 1000 EUR
2023-12-04T16:10:01 < qyx> for 1000€ I can happily blow a couple of GaN/SiC transistors :>
2023-12-04T16:10:14 < jpa-> could be :)
2023-12-04T16:10:15 < qyx> *a couple of sets
2023-12-04T16:11:38 < qyx> but I really don't know where I am going to place that 150kg motor and not be in the way of wife's plans
2023-12-04T16:11:59 < jpa-> what will you finally do with it?
2023-12-04T16:12:15 < qyx> a tractor I mentioned earlier
2023-12-04T16:13:23 < fenugrec> 150kg, 15kW ? specific power doesn't seem great, I think my rotophase has a 10kW that weighs around 70kg
2023-12-04T16:13:39 < fenugrec> ^ plain 3ph 60Hz induction , even
2023-12-04T16:13:45 < qyx> 138 kg is the net weight
2023-12-04T16:13:55 < qyx> 150 with packaging and stuff
2023-12-04T16:15:00 < qyx> what the hell is a rotophase
2023-12-04T16:15:22 < jpa-> rotary phase converter, i assume
2023-12-04T16:15:35 < fenugrec> rotary phase converter. To get good-enough 3ph power from 1ph residential mains
2023-12-04T16:15:43 < qyx> looks like an american invention
2023-12-04T16:16:31 < fenugrec> some enlightened countries may have 3ph residential, but not us in Can/US
2023-12-04T16:16:53 < jpa-> for some reason it appears that rotary phase converters weight a lot less than induction motors of similar size
2023-12-04T16:16:57 < jpa-> *similar power
2023-12-04T16:17:03 < fenugrec> what do you expect, we still use inches and fahrenheit FFS
2023-12-04T16:17:50 < fenugrec> no, well mine is DIY and it is literally an induction motor. Purpose-built RPC motors I think have a smaller shaft, smaller bearings, etc which may save some size&weight
2023-12-04T16:22:32 < fenugrec> https://filebin.net/fdcp367kjhwn5u1u/RPC.jpg 15kW, 65kg
2023-12-04T16:24:44 < qyx> https://shop.in.abb.com/3gba162420-addin/abb-ie3-15-kw-20-hp-415-v-4-pole-1500-rpm-dol-foot-mounted-3-phase-tefc-cast-iron-induction-motor.html
2023-12-04T16:27:29 < fenugrec> ah, 4 pole, lower voltage, more power, that explains the difference
2023-12-04T16:28:45 < qyx> that's actually questionable, I know the type but I have a photo of the motor itself somewhere
2023-12-04T16:28:50 < qyx> it may as well be 3000 rpm
2023-12-04T16:29:26 < qyx> it doesn't really matter for a hydraulic pump, nor it matters for a tractor, additional weight in front is good
2023-12-04T16:37:39 < fenugrec> true
2023-12-04T16:38:36 < fenugrec> jadew any luck with the finding / testing ?
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2023-12-04T16:58:48 < jbo> moin
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2023-12-04T18:45:54 < karlp> kconfig is... wonky.
2023-12-04T19:04:45 < qyx> except some details it is great
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2023-12-04T19:39:29 < jadew> fenugrec, no, I was super busy this weekend. Only had a few hours to myself yesterday in the evening.
2023-12-04T19:40:14 < fenugrec> no worries. Can ping next week
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2023-12-04T20:02:46 < karlp> trying to have a feature default on for one "board" but deselsectable, and not available for another.
2023-12-04T20:03:12 < karlp> and... just failing at it.  I suspect i'm also running into problems with not having a proper bsae defconfig to work it from.
2023-12-04T20:05:51 < qyx> just do a config section with "depends on" to hide it on the other board (that means, hide deselected)
2023-12-04T20:06:04 < qyx> and then just "default" to select y when available
2023-12-04T20:06:39 < qyx> should work just fine?
2023-12-04T20:10:11 < qyx> what bothers me though is it is not possible to do conditional include
2023-12-04T20:11:02 < qyx> https://developer.nordicsemi.com/nRF_Connect_SDK/doc/1.4.99-dev1/zephyr/guides/kconfig/tips.html#lack-of-conditional-includes
2023-12-04T20:11:04 < qyx> heh
2023-12-04T20:12:12 < qyx> karlp: https://developer.nordicsemi.com/nRF_Connect_SDK/doc/1.4.99-dev1/zephyr/guides/kconfig/tips.html#the-imply-statement
2023-12-04T20:12:15 < qyx> maybe what you want
2023-12-04T20:22:16 < zxrom> Please tell me sha1 for sttoolset_pack42.exe file.
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2023-12-04T20:27:40 < Steffanx> lol what zxrom ?
2023-12-04T20:28:08 < jadew> He wants to make sure we all got the same virus.
2023-12-04T20:29:02 < zxrom> jerkey, Yep! :D
2023-12-04T20:30:59 < qyx> we are safe jadew, it is impossible to run it
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2023-12-04T22:22:20 < karlp> yeah, imply might be good enough, but I think the problem is that if you "switch boards" it doesn't clear things that are no longer supported.
2023-12-04T22:22:25 < karlp> might play with it more tomorrow.
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2023-12-04T22:33:41 < qyx> maybe you should switch boards with a defconfig
2023-12-04T22:33:46 < analoq> when using the dfu ROM via the boot0 pin on my nucleo f411re the dfu device pops up on my pc. From that i deduct that the usb is wired correctly, and that the oscillator is physically correct.
2023-12-04T22:33:46 < qyx> although I don't like it either
2023-12-04T22:34:25 < analoq> now trying to use the usb_cdcacm example for the stm32f4-discovery which seemingly has the same pinout, things don't work
2023-12-04T22:35:15 < qyx> I would say it is seemingly a bit different
2023-12-04T22:35:20 < analoq> :D
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2023-12-04T22:48:10 < karlp> qyx: yeah, I'm looking at bringing defconfigs in... they weren't using them at all presently. just some weird cmake switching between two saved .config files...
2023-12-04T22:48:38 < karlp> the f411 is not the same usb core as the original f4 discovery, I thought I mentioned that the other day...
2023-12-04T22:48:56 < karlp> blame those worthless open source locm3 people for never working out a good way around that...
2023-12-04T22:49:01 < analoq> ah right you did :<
2023-12-04T22:49:19 < karlp> you can go find the tickets on github for it, with various solutions
2023-12-04T22:49:23 < karlp> it's not a new issue...
2023-12-04T22:50:37 < qyx> on a related note, how do nordic people cope with winter dementia and overall the lack of sun and the resulting grumpiness
2023-12-04T22:50:57 < qyx> is there a potion of some sort for that
2023-12-04T22:51:12 < qyx> I am close to another burnout it seems
2023-12-04T22:52:27 < karlp> alcohol?
2023-12-04T22:52:35 < karlp> coping is relative...
2023-12-04T22:53:11 < qyx> oh alcohol I don't know that one
2023-12-04T22:58:07 < Ecco> Ok, I feel super dumb
2023-12-04T22:58:13 < Ecco> What' the problem with this: https://i.imgur.com/G8mKqo1.png
2023-12-04T22:58:50 < qyx> vhat's the voltage ov vbat?
2023-12-04T22:58:55 < Ecco> 3V
2023-12-04T22:59:05 < Ecco> 2.9V to be accurate
2023-12-04T22:59:18 < Ecco> (well, depends on the battery, so between 2.8 and 3.0V)
2023-12-04T22:59:26 < qyx> and what's not working except the LED will blow up
2023-12-04T22:59:33 < Ecco> :-D
2023-12-04T22:59:45 < Ecco> Well, what's not working is that when LED_EN is 0V the LED is mostly on
2023-12-04T22:59:58 < qyx> mostly?
2023-12-04T23:00:03 < qyx> it should be fully on
2023-12-04T23:01:12 < Ecco> Well
2023-12-04T23:01:14 < Ecco> What I do see
2023-12-04T23:01:25 < Ecco> is that if LED_EN is 0V the LED is quite bright
2023-12-04T23:01:32 < Ecco> but if LED_EN is VBAT, then the LED is even brighter
2023-12-04T23:02:16 < qyx> then your fet may be ded
2023-12-04T23:02:28 < Ecco> hmm
2023-12-04T23:02:34 < Ecco> ok
2023-12-04T23:02:40 < Ecco> And indeed there is no ballast resistor
2023-12-04T23:02:52 < Ecco> *but* supposedly the battery's internal resistor should make that a non-issue
2023-12-04T23:03:14 < Ecco> I soldered myself
2023-12-04T23:03:20 < Ecco> Are those easy to fry?
2023-12-04T23:03:37 < qyx> bss84 is pretty old, may be prone to bad handling
2023-12-04T23:03:47 < Ecco> (I don't remember heating it very much. I usually use leaded eutectic, with an iron at ~ 320°C)
2023-12-04T23:03:57 < qyx> prone to failure with bad handling
2023-12-04T23:04:04 < Ecco> oh, like ESD?
2023-12-04T23:04:10 < Ecco> I didn't pay much attention to this
2023-12-04T23:04:20 < Ecco> I need to solder another board anyway
2023-12-04T23:04:23 < qyx> like anything, like peak current
2023-12-04T23:04:28 < qyx> bss84 is 100 mA max or so
2023-12-04T23:04:29 < Ecco> hmm, ok
2023-12-04T23:04:33 < Ecco> good point
2023-12-04T23:04:36 < qyx> your LED may easily cause that
2023-12-04T23:04:40 < qyx> given you have no resistor
2023-12-04T23:04:43 < Ecco> hmm
2023-12-04T23:04:44 < Ecco> indeed
2023-12-04T23:04:48 < Ecco> Actually
2023-12-04T23:04:48 < qyx> and you are only limited by battery internal resistance
2023-12-04T23:04:57 < Ecco> ok, i know what the problem is then
2023-12-04T23:05:05 < Ecco> I don't want to run off of a CR2032 all the time
2023-12-04T23:05:17 < Ecco> so on the board I put a "fake" battery
2023-12-04T23:05:26 < Ecco> with a 2.9V LDO and a 0803 resistor
2023-12-04T23:05:28 < qyx> what's that, a cap?
2023-12-04T23:05:47 < Ecco> no, it's an LDO and a series resistor
2023-12-04T23:05:58 < Ecco> that should mimic the behavior of a CR2032 from a 5V VBUS
2023-12-04T23:06:19 < Ecco> however, I didn't have the right resistor value (I think it's around 15Ω)
2023-12-04T23:06:28 < Ecco> So I just put a 0Ω
2023-12-04T23:06:34 < Ecco> Might indeed have overloaded the transistor
2023-12-04T23:06:47 < Ecco> (because yeah, VBUS probably was happy do deliver 500mA)
2023-12-04T23:06:55 < Ecco> (and I guess the LDO didn't limit it too much either)
2023-12-04T23:06:57 < Ecco> thanks!
2023-12-04T23:07:01 < qyx> vbus is happy to do even igher currents
2023-12-04T23:07:06 < qyx> because usually only limited by a PTC
2023-12-04T23:07:10 < qyx> it takes some time to trigger
2023-12-04T23:07:32 < qyx> please don't let the LED die
2023-12-04T23:07:41 < qyx> give it some resistance
2023-12-04T23:08:00 < Ecco> Ok, so, question time I guess
2023-12-04T23:08:06 < Ecco> the reason I don't want to put a resistor
2023-12-04T23:08:12 < Ecco> is to try and maximise the efficiency
2023-12-04T23:08:31 < Ecco> My reasoning: this is a portable device running off of a CR2032
2023-12-04T23:08:41 < Ecco> So the CR2032 will limit the current anyway
2023-12-04T23:08:47 < Ecco> and I'd rather just PWM the crap out of the pin
2023-12-04T23:08:54 < Ecco> (maybe with a capacitor to smooth things out)
2023-12-04T23:09:04 < Ecco> than just waste current in a series resistor
2023-12-04T23:09:10 < Ecco> What do you think? Is this a bad idea?
2023-12-04T23:09:30 < Ecco> (I reckon that my current implementation sucks, essentially because my "fake CR2032" is quite terrible)
2023-12-04T23:10:04 < qyx> so you are essentially shorting your cr2032 with PWM to about Vf, which could easily be 1.2 V
2023-12-04T23:10:12 < qyx> but of course there are caps
2023-12-04T23:10:38 < qyx> so instead of that (and resetting your MCU because of BOR) you are pumping literally amps to the LED
2023-12-04T23:10:49 < qyx> some LEDS are ok with that, but they may die
2023-12-04T23:10:54 < qyx> the same applies to the poor mosfet
2023-12-04T23:11:07 < qyx> I would use at least some minimal series resistance
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2023-12-04T23:44:38 < karlp> bah humbug, jlc only does double sided with "standard" assembly now?
2023-12-04T23:44:42 < karlp> I did not design for that...
--- Day changed ti joulu 05 2023
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2023-12-05T00:03:17 < nomorekaki> early hello
2023-12-05T00:03:52 < karlp> meh https://bin.jvnv.net/file/dDy4H.png
2023-12-05T00:04:08 < karlp> no big deal if it was for 40 or 50 boards, or for resale, but not so much fun as it is.
2023-12-05T00:04:21 < karlp> might have to make a few tweaks...
2023-12-05T00:05:17 < Ecco> qyx: Thanks for the perspective!
2023-12-05T00:06:03 < Ecco> karlp: why do they charge for a stencil?
2023-12-05T00:06:12 < karlp> just part of it.
2023-12-05T00:06:24 < karlp> it's ok, some of it is me not hving rechecked some assumptions recently.
2023-12-05T00:06:34 < Ecco> Actually, this makes me realize: I've no idea how the paste is put on PCBs in large production runs
2023-12-05T00:06:46 < karlp> I mean, they make a stencil :)
2023-12-05T00:06:49 < karlp> so they charge for it...
2023-12-05T00:07:14 < Ecco> Yeah, but I thought they would use a machine like an inkjet printer
2023-12-05T00:07:19 < Ecco> except it spits out solder paste
2023-12-05T00:07:33 < Ecco> I thought stencils were really only used for small DIY reflow batches
2023-12-05T00:08:40 < analoq> karlp: while i see you mentioning jlc and assembly. How do they handle assembly with components they dont have in stock/ trickier to get stuff?
2023-12-05T00:08:46 < analoq> any experience with that?
2023-12-05T00:09:02 < zyp> you can have them order stuff from mouser/digikey and friends
2023-12-05T00:09:17 < zyp> I've done that some times
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2023-12-05T00:09:36 < zyp> works well, but they upcharge you :)
2023-12-05T00:09:47 < analoq> so it's a fixed list of distris they are willing to order from?
2023-12-05T00:10:02 < qyx> karlp: how many boards is that
2023-12-05T00:10:32 < zyp> karlp, jlcpcb didn't do double sided at all before, then they added the non-economic option that allows it
2023-12-05T00:11:43 < zyp> analoq, they recently added an option where you can send them parts, but I haven't tried that yet, and it has some restrictions
2023-12-05T00:11:54 < zyp> e.g. the sender had to have a chinese addr
2023-12-05T00:12:17 < analoq> that's a showstopper :(
2023-12-05T00:12:41 < zyp> I assume it's for customs reasons
2023-12-05T00:13:07 < karlp> qyx: jusst 5.  parts are cheap, but you get no discount for "basic" parts on "standard"
2023-12-05T00:13:22 < karlp> analoq: this board ws designed around their parts inventory
2023-12-05T00:13:24 < zyp> I figure having to handle imports for stuff from random senders can be a lot of hassle
2023-12-05T00:13:47 < karlp> but yeah, I've ordered from them with parts we bought upfront and saved to "our library" it works fine.
2023-12-05T00:14:21 < analoq> karlp: yeah, that's probably what i would do too. Just looking into it for job related hardware as our prototype production speed is ridiculously slow atm with german manufacturers
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2023-12-05T00:15:22 < zyp> my impression is that jlc is pretty unbeatable on low volume stuff, since the NREs are so low, but on volume stuff the BOM cost could make the total cheaper elsewhere
2023-12-05T00:15:23 < analoq> ignore the 'atm' it has always been slow :D
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2023-12-05T00:33:01 < analoq> yey i think i got the usb working \o/
2023-12-05T00:37:32 < Ecco> Congrats!
2023-12-05T00:39:22 < analoq> the odd thing is, it's not showing up on lsusb. but dmesg lists it and i can connect to the cdcacm tty via minicom :/
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2023-12-05T08:19:00 < jadew> So I run `npm install`, and it tells me that it found "8 vulnerabilities (1 moderate, 7 high)" and that I should run `npm audit fix --force`. I do that, and after the fix I have "10 vulnerabilities (1 moderate, 7 high, 2 critical)".
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2023-12-05T09:40:11 < ventYl> 99 beer bottles of beer on the wall...
2023-12-05T09:43:55 < BrainDamage> it probably just removes version pins and updates to the latest instead of trying to satisfy every constrain to the minimum amount of vulns
2023-12-05T09:44:34 < jadew> Yeah, it did an update, but the result was funny.
2023-12-05T09:45:42 < BrainDamage> I always feel like the quality of my life is inversely proportional to the amount of contact I have with js
2023-12-05T09:46:48 < jadew> The whole ecosystem is full of hipster developers, but there are nice things about it too (like typescript).
2023-12-05T09:47:40 < jadew> I think Typescript is the most important language of the past decade.
2023-12-05T09:47:55 < analoq> it makes sense. easy to get into. and you can easily shove your new projects down other peoples throats
2023-12-05T09:49:53 < jadew> I have to pick a uni testing framework today, and the majority of them have assertions in the form of expect(123).to.be(123)...
2023-12-05T09:50:52 < jadew> I mean... fuck off... how about assertEqual() or some shit that makes sense to any developer, without the need to read a bunch of documentation to understand your brain farts regarding comparing values.
2023-12-05T09:52:20 < jadew> The idiots figured it would be wise to invent different terminology to compare things, because that way managerial types would be able to write and understand tests - how stupid do you have to be to think that's ever going to happen?
2023-12-05T09:54:43 < jadew> Long story short, most unit testing frameworks use that kind of custom terminology, so it makes sense to people who will never touch tests, at the expense of the developer's time (who will actually write and read the tests).
2023-12-05T09:55:49 < ventYl> that was the original idea of Cobol
2023-12-05T09:56:08 < BrainDamage> I think they do it that way because then you have access to all the type information, instead of after's been squashed to a boolean value
2023-12-05T09:56:25 < BrainDamage> you = the test framework
2023-12-05T09:56:35 < jadew> BrainDamage, you don't have to squash it, for example if you say 
2023-12-05T09:56:55 < jadew> assertEqual(a, b); if they're not equal, you still have access to their types, so you can issue meaningful reports.
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2023-12-05T09:57:41 < jadew> They do shit like expect(a).has.property('abcd').withLength(5)
2023-12-05T09:57:57 < BrainDamage> ah, you mean with the style
2023-12-05T09:58:03 < BrainDamage> I have no comments on that
2023-12-05T09:59:18 < jadew> Don't get me wrong, I understand that crap when I read it, but I wouldn't want to write it.
2023-12-05T09:59:42 < analoq> rust uses similar logic. i like it
2023-12-05T10:00:20 < jadew> What do you like about it?
2023-12-05T10:01:15 < analoq> less verbose i guess.
2023-12-05T10:01:58 < jadew> assertProperty(a, 'abcd');
2023-12-05T10:02:06 < jadew> assertEqual(a.abcd.length, 5);
2023-12-05T10:02:43 < jadew> ^ This looks exactly like the rest of the codebase.
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2023-12-05T10:04:08 < jadew> I don't know if I'd say it's less verbose, but I can understand exactly what's being tested at a glance. In this shitchain method, you have to parse and reason about what's happening there.
2023-12-05T10:53:10 < jpa-> heh, rigol DS1054Z connection using VXI11: 18 kB/s; using raw TCP: 500 kB/s; using raw TCP + TCP_NODELAY socket option: 1 MB/s
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2023-12-05T12:38:48 < mawk> nice
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2023-12-05T16:23:17 < jpa-> why is my ZXSC410 totally ignoring the feedback pin? https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/zxsc410_boost.html
2023-12-05T16:23:58 < jpa-> it should regulate to Vfb = 0.3V
2023-12-05T16:28:37 < karlp> love the use of notebooks
2023-12-05T16:30:45 < jpa-> i love it too, finally found a tool that suits me
2023-12-05T16:31:35 < karlp> now just remember you can just put markdown in a cell, don't need to put ias a comment after the python line :)
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2023-12-05T16:34:57 < jpa-> yeah, but too much clicking when i need the python line anyway :)
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2023-12-05T16:52:18 < karlp> fucking clown shop here sometimes...  "why didn't my code work? I added to the right place of the enum..." (enum has entries,,, then a "MAX_COMM" entry for the end of it....
2023-12-05T16:52:39 < karlp> buttttt the check onlvaidation doesn't use that MAX_COMM.... oh no... "if (comm > 0 && comm <= COMM9)
2023-12-05T16:52:49 < karlp> just hard check on some value that was the max at some point...
2023-12-05T16:55:48 < jpa-> hmm, I tried removing R502 and changing R504 to 0.91Mohm + 220pF in parallel, but that didn't improve regulation. Because of the higher load it now outputs 67V instead of 80V but Vfb now hovers at 0.8V
2023-12-05T16:57:30 < Ecco> Regarding the "Efficiently drive a single LED" thing we talked about yesterday: how about using an inductor in series with the LED, and then PWM-ing the transistor? The idea being that inductors are by definition current-smoothing devices.
2023-12-05T16:58:01 < Ecco> I guess in other words my question really is: what's the most efficient way to drive a single LED whose Vf is lower than Vdd?
2023-12-05T17:01:50 < jpa-> Ecco: i have used PAM2863, a circuit like that is also easy to realize with a low-side transistor and constant duty cycle
2023-12-05T17:02:07 < jpa-> (see https://www.diodes.com/assets/Datasheets/PAM2863.pdf typical circuit)
2023-12-05T17:02:39 < Ecco> Ha, so the "series inductor" thing is not a terrible idea?
2023-12-05T17:02:50 < jpa-> no, it works, you just need a diode also
2023-12-05T17:02:53  * Ecco seems to be starting to understand electronics :)
2023-12-05T17:03:09 < Ecco> Oh, a flyback thingy I guess?
2023-12-05T17:03:16 < jpa-> and if you are doing constant duty cycle, you may want to add a resistor to make it less sensitive to inaccuracies
2023-12-05T17:03:45 < jpa-> not really a flyback diode, just normal buck regulator diode to provide path for the current to continue flowing when transistor is off
2023-12-05T17:04:03 < Ecco> hmm
2023-12-05T17:04:16 < Ecco> I'm not sure I understand 100% but your link definitely helps
2023-12-05T17:04:19 < jpa-> (the inductor has stored energy, the diode provides a path to connect that energy to LED)
2023-12-05T17:04:27 < Ecco> oh, ok
2023-12-05T17:04:43 < Ecco> and then what's the alternative to constant PWM? Some kind of feedback loop?
2023-12-05T17:04:53 < Ecco> Maybe using the ADC?
2023-12-05T17:05:09 < jpa-> yeah, current sensing and feedback loop, like that PAM2863 chip does
2023-12-05T17:05:23 < Ecco> Makes sense. It gets a lot more complicated tho
2023-12-05T17:05:30 < jpa-> though it is fancy and does high side sense, you can do low side sense if you are clever in software
2023-12-05T17:05:45 < Ecco> but is it really needed?
2023-12-05T17:06:22 < Ecco> I mean, I care about efficiency, not so much about reaching the max brightness
2023-12-05T17:06:38 < Ecco> so I guess I could configure the PWM rate / inductor value to be on the safe side and not worry too much?
2023-12-05T17:06:52 < Ecco> Or is that bound to fail one way or another?
2023-12-05T17:06:54 < jbo> morning
2023-12-05T17:12:31 < Ecco> morning :)
2023-12-05T17:17:03 < jpa-> Ecco: constant PWM duty works perfectly when Vfwd / Vsupply ratio is stable
2023-12-05T17:17:59 < jpa-> Ecco: if your supply voltage or the LED Vfwd varies, you need some resistance to compensate for it
2023-12-05T17:18:44 < jpa-> though i guess you can set it to slightly lower value and it will operate in discontinuous mode pretty well without regulation
2023-12-05T17:19:02 < jbo> who'd like a hug?
2023-12-05T17:21:12 < karlp> sure! hugs are great!
2023-12-05T17:22:53  * jbo hugs karlp 
2023-12-05T17:25:22 < Ecco> thanks jpa- , that makes sense!
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2023-12-05T19:24:22 < Steffanx> You need a hug too, jbo?
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2023-12-05T20:53:05 < jbo> Steffanx, secretly yes
2023-12-05T20:53:22 < jbo> I only accept hugs by jpa- or zyp tho
2023-12-05T20:53:36 < jbo> prefer*
2023-12-05T20:54:13 < Steffanx> Ah too bad then. No hugs for you
2023-12-05T20:54:34 < Steffanx> Thanks for your honesty though
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2023-12-05T22:06:30 < jbo> Steffanx, you know that you'll always be a special exception to me :-*
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2023-12-05T22:24:10 < Steffanx> 🎉
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2023-12-05T23:40:14 < karlp> hrm, went over options on this project, doing all the assembly myself, having to order both jlc and lcsc parts, with ~$20 min shipping on each, I can ~maybe get it for about $100.
2023-12-05T23:40:43 < karlp> $185 for 5 fully assembled, every single optional part all prefitted, just open the box and go, is $185.
2023-12-05T23:41:22 < karlp> I'm not sure I'm excited about stenicilling and pasting one by one at home much :)
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2023-12-05T23:42:12 < karlp> I have some ideas on how to make it more feasible to have one side only assemble another time, but it's a bigger re-design, I was convinced by other people that two sided assembly was "fine" with jlc these days...
2023-12-05T23:42:22 < karlp> and it is, really, compared to commercial shit...
2023-12-05T23:42:35 < karlp> also, lcsc's bom tool is dumb as shit.
2023-12-05T23:42:46 < karlp> you enter in quatity, and then say "ok, 5 x please"
2023-12-05T23:43:09 < karlp> and it goes. "ok, taking the items for 1... bumping all of them up to the _minimum_ .... _then_ we're going to multiple by 5"
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2023-12-05T23:48:04 < karlp> hrm.  make that a v2, if it ever needs one though maybe...
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--- Day changed ke joulu 06 2023
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2023-12-06T00:32:40 < analoq> like how is one to figure out the footprint without a drawing...  https://de.aliexpress.com/item/1005003196150663.html
2023-12-06T00:32:47 < analoq> and why is this component such a unicorn
2023-12-06T00:33:12 < karlp> well. don't buy things from ali...
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2023-12-06T00:33:40 < analoq> karlp: yeah well that component is hard to source apparently
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2023-12-06T01:39:23 < jbo> STM32 question: the STM32H7A3 has both a regular reset input and a JTAG reset input. I assume I connect the JTAG reset to the JTAG reset pin. do I also want to have some circuitry "combining" them?
2023-12-06T01:41:00 < zyp> do you mean jtrst?
2023-12-06T01:41:04 < jbo> yeah
2023-12-06T01:41:04 < zyp> nobody uses that.
2023-12-06T01:41:09 < jbo> oh
2023-12-06T01:41:18 < jbo> how come?
2023-12-06T01:42:05 < zyp> it serves no useful purpose
2023-12-06T01:42:46 < jbo> aah, that is only to reset the debug logic
2023-12-06T01:42:50 < zyp> it's not even part of the standard 10-pin cortex debug connector pinout
2023-12-06T01:42:55 < zyp> ref. https://documentation-service.arm.com/static/5fce6c49e167456a35b36af1
2023-12-06T01:43:21 < zyp> the two legacy connectors listed have it
2023-12-06T01:43:41 < jbo> better fix my schematics then :p
2023-12-06T01:43:50 < zyp> it's moot when you're using SWD anyway
2023-12-06T01:44:36 < zyp> I'm not sure jtrst even resets the SWD-DP, and the SWD-DP has a command to reset the rest of the debug infrastructure if required
2023-12-06T01:44:59 < jbo> so pin 10 of the 10pin jtag connector goes directly to the NRST pin of the STM32, right?
2023-12-06T01:45:01 < zyp> not sure how it is with a JTAG-DP
2023-12-06T01:45:04 < zyp> correct
2023-12-06T01:45:07 < jbo> thanks :)
2023-12-06T01:45:44 < zyp> note that what I said applies to cortex-m
2023-12-06T01:45:50 < zyp> there's other parts behaving otherwise
2023-12-06T01:46:03 < jbo> that makes sense
2023-12-06T01:46:27 < zyp> e.g. ti hercules (cortex-r) uses jtrst with a pulldown to disable the debug logic by default, and needs it driven up when you want to debug the chip, IIRC
2023-12-06T01:46:55 < PaulFertser> jbo: no, TRST normally only resets the JTAG state machine and nothing else, debug circuity should be unaffected. Never connect srst and trst.
2023-12-06T01:47:11 < jbo> thanks! I'll put that down into my notes
2023-12-06T01:48:32 < PaulFertser> It's useless because there's a way to guarantee state machine reset by state transitions.
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2023-12-06T02:51:12 < Ecco> Why is the FPU disabled by default (on chips that have one)
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2023-12-06T03:19:46 < specing> Ecco: power saving?
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2023-12-06T04:09:51 < catphish> certainly seems like it would save power
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2023-12-06T08:15:16 < ColdKeyboard> Can I use JTAG/SWDIO to arbitrarily send data over I2C? Ie. if micro is not programmed or I don't want to load one fw to test i2c and then production fw
2023-12-06T08:28:17 < qyx> yes you can directly manipulate i2c registers, should probably work
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2023-12-06T08:33:30 < ColdKeyboard> qyx Is there an example on how to do this programatically?
2023-12-06T08:33:49 < ColdKeyboard> Or could I do it through GDB or some other way. I have no clue where to start looking
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2023-12-06T08:36:52 < qyx> I have never seen one, except for qspi
2023-12-06T08:37:04 < qyx> yes, gdb should work
2023-12-06T08:37:12 < ColdKeyboard> That could work too. Do you have an example?
2023-12-06T08:37:23 < ColdKeyboard> I also need to send few bytes over SPI so that might be a great starting point
2023-12-06T08:39:09 < qyx> sorry, I don't, but you can google for external qspi flashing and related questions, now there is a stm32-qspi driver afaik in openocd to do that (idk if it also does the configuration)
2023-12-06T08:41:41 < qyx> ColdKeyboard: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/p2Ajv
2023-12-06T08:42:46 < qyx> idk where it is from nor if it works
2023-12-06T08:43:12 < ColdKeyboard> Thanks qyx! I'll take a look at it
2023-12-06T08:45:11 < jpa-> it will be pretty slow though, so you might be better off loading a simple firmware to STM32 RAM
2023-12-06T08:47:26 < ColdKeyboard> Right... I might just flash two binaries one after the other. Seems like less work :\
2023-12-06T08:48:13 < ColdKeyboard> Also just confirming, when you turn on RDP the bootloader will still be able to erase/program flash. There are no gotchas on G series?
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2023-12-06T09:25:31 < jpa-> ColdKeyboard: no need to even flash when you can load a binary to RAM
2023-12-06T09:27:24 < jpa-> and yeah, you can mass erase through bootloader as long as you don't enable RDP level 2, which is permanent
2023-12-06T09:32:35 < ColdKeyboard> I'm not sure how to load binary to ram but I'll look into it. :)
2023-12-06T09:33:06 < ColdKeyboard> I just need to fuse out SWD/JTAG access but leave the ability for bootloader to rewrite firmware. So I guess I'm looking for RDP lvl1
2023-12-06T09:49:18 < jpa-> you just compile the code to be at 0x20000000 instead of the flash address
2023-12-06T09:50:47 < jpa-> RDP level 1 doesn't prevent debugger access, it just prevents debugger from accessing flash
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2023-12-06T11:14:56 < karlp> analoq: what is it? sata power, "standard" but _only_ the power part? problem is most vendors offer the power/data as a combined assembly?
2023-12-06T11:15:16 < karlp> analoq: is there any reason you can't juse use a normal combined assembly and just not use the data piece?
2023-12-06T11:15:41 < karlp> was this something used on first gen sata harddrives that had them separate or something?
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2023-12-06T11:28:39 < ventYl> ESA supplier has lost rocket fuel tanks
2023-12-06T11:29:27 < ventYl> found them later, in scrapyard
2023-12-06T11:29:29 < jpa-> analoq: you buy it, then measure :)
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2023-12-06T13:17:18 < qyx> ventYl: *accidentally*
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2023-12-06T14:54:01 < karlp> fuckoing datasheet lists gpio alt functions by _bga ball id_ but shcematic is arranged by port/pin numbers, 
2023-12-06T14:54:07 < karlp> so the bga balls are all over the place
2023-12-06T14:59:36 < ventYl> looking at variable names in MSDN examples, I can trace out code back to where it was copy-pasted from
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2023-12-06T15:22:16 < qyx> the moment of truth
2023-12-06T15:22:27 < qyx> PCBs arrived
2023-12-06T15:22:54 < qyx> checking if press-fit connectors actually fit
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2023-12-06T15:31:09 < zyp> karlp, that happens sometimes
2023-12-06T15:32:18 < zyp> I've made some messy fpga schematics
2023-12-06T15:40:45 < zyp> logically it makes sense to arrange fpga symbols by bank/io, but physically you're pretty free to put signals all over the place as long as you've got the right IO voltages
2023-12-06T15:41:39 < zyp> and then there's shit like modules, which can rearrange everything
2023-12-06T15:48:29 < qyx> doesn't it case broken timing, etc.?
2023-12-06T15:48:34 < qyx> *cause
2023-12-06T15:53:19 < jpa-> i just rearrange schematic symbol pins as needed
2023-12-06T16:00:36 < mawk> what's the largest power of 2 where all digits are even?
2023-12-06T16:01:05 < mawk> it's a trick question, the answer is not known
2023-12-06T16:01:29 < analoq> i mean maybe you can narrow it down?
2023-12-06T16:01:36 < mawk> we only know 2, 4, 8, 64, 2048
2023-12-06T16:01:41 < analoq> can 8888.... be a power of 2?
2023-12-06T16:01:43 < mawk> and nothing above
2023-12-06T16:02:25 < mawk> no analoq 
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2023-12-06T16:05:22 < zyp> mawk, so what you're saying is that it could be 2048, but it's not proven, because it can't be disproved that there's higher numbers?
2023-12-06T16:07:45 < qyx> mawk: 16384
2023-12-06T16:07:51 < zyp> 3 is odd
2023-12-06T16:07:54 < zyp> also 1
2023-12-06T16:07:56 < qyx> oh really
2023-12-06T16:07:59 < qyx> 4096 then
2023-12-06T16:08:05 < zyp> …
2023-12-06T16:08:09 < qyx> oh fuck
2023-12-06T16:08:09 < mawk> yes zyp 
2023-12-06T16:09:03 < zyp> hmm, I feel it should be possible to disprove it
2023-12-06T16:09:04 < qyx> oh so you are saying there could be higher
2023-12-06T16:18:24 < qyx> I will need to make the backplane holes bigger
2023-12-06T16:18:40 < qyx> I am not able to pressfit male headers without those multi million tools
2023-12-06T16:22:46 < mawk> if you can find a higher number or prove why it's not possible you can probably publish an article about it in maths magazine or a recreational maths journal and become famous
2023-12-06T16:31:36 < jpa-> are people who publish in recreational maths journal famous for it?
2023-12-06T16:31:48 < jpa-> and if they are, is it in good or in bad way?
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2023-12-06T16:33:47 < mawk> yes they are
2023-12-06T16:34:02 < mawk> john conway was extremely famous
2023-12-06T16:34:07 < mawk> but he did some regular maths too
2023-12-06T16:34:23 < Ecco> What do you guys think of https://www.st.com/en/development-tools/stlink-v3pwr.html ?
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2023-12-06T16:37:30 < karlp> zyp: I found another section eventually that had the other mapping too, just wasn't easy at first.  there's ports a..t, so it wasn't immediatley obvious that the bga balls weren't the ports... :)
2023-12-06T16:41:54 < zyp> mawk, ok, idk how to formally prove it, but the trend says the number of odd digits increases faster than the variation: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/j1JvP.png so intuitively it doesn't look like it's ever gonna go back down
2023-12-06T16:42:17 < zyp> beginning of curve: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/g1zEg.png
2023-12-06T16:44:52 < zyp> given how every digit is always doubled, the only way a digit can become odd is for the digit below to carry into it, which means that the number before can only have digits 0..4 except for the first
2023-12-06T16:46:52 < karlp> intuition and extrapotaion don't mean shit for proofs though...
2023-12-06T16:47:14 < karlp> ok, so altium 365 web thing is _pretttty_ good at crashign firefox hard enough that my laptop restarts...
2023-12-06T16:47:20 < karlp> which is relatively impressive I guess...
2023-12-06T16:47:50 < qyx> streetview manages to do the same if I keep it open for 5 minutes
2023-12-06T16:47:52 < qyx> nothing else
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2023-12-06T16:49:28 < zyp> I looked at modulo rings, because a modulo ring without any numbers that only has digits 0-4 would imply that no numbers could only have digits 0-4 either, and could thus not be followed by an all even digits number
2023-12-06T16:49:37 < qyx> how much can I upsize a 0.7 mm plated through hole to not damage it?
2023-12-06T16:49:46 < zyp> but such modulo rings also doesn't seem to exist
2023-12-06T16:50:29 < zyp> hmm, actually, I didn't do that properly
2023-12-06T16:53:27 < mawk> you can make your own groups, but the group operation has to leave objects inside the group
2023-12-06T16:54:00 < mawk> ({5; 6; 7; 8; 9} mod 10, *) is not a group for instance, 5*2 = 0 which is outside
2023-12-06T17:05:28 < zyp> 2**n mod 10**7 repeats with a period of 62500, and of those there's 466 numbers with all digits <5
2023-12-06T17:10:35 < jpa-> qyx: hole plating is typically about 0.05mm thick
2023-12-06T17:15:30 < mawk> the period of 2^n mod 10^7 depends on what happens mod 5^7 and 2^7
2023-12-06T17:15:40 < mawk> because sadly gcd(2, 10) is not 1
2023-12-06T17:16:10 < zyp> the period of 2^n mod 10^x is 4 * 5**(x-1)
2023-12-06T17:16:48 < mawk> the period of a^n mod 10^7 is at most the number of number coprimes with 10^7
2023-12-06T17:17:03 < mawk> which is 2*6*4*5**6
2023-12-06T17:17:18 < mawk> and the actual period will divide that number
2023-12-06T17:17:33 < mawk> 2**6 * 4*5**6 sorry
2023-12-06T17:18:11 < qyx> jpa-: sad
2023-12-06T17:18:35 < qyx> another sad thing is I lost a box with components for PCBs which arrived just now
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2023-12-06T19:20:52 < mawk> zyp if x+y+z = 2 and x²+y²+z² = 12, what are the minimum and maximum values z can take?
2023-12-06T19:21:20 < mawk> you have several ways to look at it, but one could be the intersection of the plane x+y+z = 2 with the sphere of radius √12 centered at the origin 
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2023-12-06T20:32:23 < Steffanx> yes
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2023-12-06T20:55:16 < Ecco> ok fun thing
2023-12-06T20:55:28 < Ecco> I'm talking to a MEMS accelerometer over SPI
2023-12-06T20:55:42 < Ecco> if I *unplug* my logic analyzer, the MEMS only spits out zeroes
2023-12-06T20:55:54 < Ecco> If I plug the LA back in, it works
2023-12-06T21:00:02 < jpa-> LA capacitance is suppressing some signal integrity issues, such as reflections or inter-wire capacitance causing glitches on SCK
2023-12-06T21:00:52 < Ecco> I don't have a scope (yet - it's being shipped)
2023-12-06T21:00:56 < Ecco> I can try and lower the SPI freq
2023-12-06T21:01:07 < jpa-> try to lower the SCK slew rate
2023-12-06T21:01:18 < jpa-> e.g. if it is driven by STM32, set the GPIO speed to slowest value
2023-12-06T21:01:31 < Ecco> oh, ok
2023-12-06T21:02:05 < jpa-> same for MOSI; for MISO you usually don't have other way than putting series resistor near the SPI peripheral chip
2023-12-06T21:02:24 < Ecco> Nope, didn't fix it
2023-12-06T21:02:30 < Ecco> 10kHz bus frequency
2023-12-06T21:02:33 < Ecco> pins as slow speed
2023-12-06T21:03:09 < PaulFertser> Or add a series resistor e.g. 47 Ohm on data lines as a quick try.
2023-12-06T21:03:12 < jpa-> it can also be something sillier, like accidentally configuring a pin as open-drain and the logic analyzer having some parasitic pull-up
2023-12-06T21:03:29 < PaulFertser> Bus frequency doesn't affect slew rate and hence possible ringing.
2023-12-06T21:03:46 < Ecco> Indeed, just thought I'd try
2023-12-06T21:03:50 < jpa-> Ecco: disconnect your LA wire-by-wire and check what wire the problem is on
2023-12-06T21:04:28 < Ecco> did that already
2023-12-06T21:04:31 < Ecco> it's the MISO pin
2023-12-06T21:04:37 < Ecco> If I unplug MISO, it stops working
2023-12-06T21:04:46 < Ecco> the second I plug it back in, it works again
2023-12-06T21:05:01 < jpa-> how long are the wires between the accelerometer and the STM32?
2023-12-06T21:05:09 < Ecco> very short
2023-12-06T21:05:14 < Ecco> I have a debug header pin
2023-12-06T21:05:17 < Ecco> that's further away
2023-12-06T21:05:22 < Ecco> that's where I plug the LA
2023-12-06T21:05:42 < jpa-> which accelerometer?
2023-12-06T21:06:00 < Ecco> so in terms of trace length, it's like this   LA --- 10cm cable --- Header pin -- 5cm trace -- MEMS -- 5mm STM32
2023-12-06T21:06:16 < Ecco> Lis2dw12
2023-12-06T21:06:37 < Ecco> (at the end I meant MEMS -- 5mm trace -- STM32)
2023-12-06T21:06:59 < jpa-> try to enable pull-up on STM32 on the MISO pin, just to check
2023-12-06T21:07:02 < Ecco> I feel like the "forgotten pull up" might be a good explanation
2023-12-06T21:07:11 < jpa-> if it works, you may have a soldering issue on VDDIO pin on the accelerometer
2023-12-06T21:08:23 < Ecco> oh
2023-12-06T21:08:30 < Ecco> indeed
2023-12-06T21:08:37 < Ecco> I still have only soldered one of thos boards
2023-12-06T21:08:41 < Ecco> I def need to solder another
2023-12-06T21:08:47 < Ecco> Also, yeah, that MEMS is *tiny*
2023-12-06T21:08:52 < Ecco> Could very well be  a soldering issue
2023-12-06T21:09:26 < Ecco> ok, so, pull up on MISO makes it work!
2023-12-06T21:09:34 < Ecco> Thanks jpa-!
2023-12-06T21:09:35 < jpa-> the first time i soldered one of those LGA package accelerometers, i had to desolder and resolder until i had torn enough pads that this was the only option  http://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/lga14.jpg
2023-12-06T21:09:48 < Ecco> Hahahaha
2023-12-06T21:09:50 < Ecco> Damn
2023-12-06T21:10:13 < Ecco> Now how can you tell it's a VDDIO problem?
2023-12-06T21:10:51 < jpa-> because it can output zeros, it has GND.. and because it responds something sensible, it must have VDD
2023-12-06T21:10:59 < jpa-> but without VDDIO the IO pins cannot output high level
2023-12-06T21:11:21 < Ecco> oooh
2023-12-06T21:11:27 < Ecco> smart
2023-12-06T21:12:22 < Ecco> Maybe I could try and press on the part
2023-12-06T21:12:25 < Ecco> let me try and do this
2023-12-06T21:12:56 < jpa-> (also, WTF is up with those cheap logic analyzers that have parasitic pull-up on the input; i would understand parasitic pull-down)
2023-12-06T21:13:42 < Ecco> Yeah, that was my next question really
2023-12-06T21:13:46 < Ecco> how comes the LA pulls this crap up?
2023-12-06T21:14:01 < Ecco> I mean, it's good that it helped in this very odd way
2023-12-06T21:14:07 < jpa-> IIRC one of my old saleae clones did that too
2023-12-06T21:14:10 < Ecco> :-D
2023-12-06T21:14:16 < Ecco> Exactly what I'm using rn
2023-12-06T21:14:28 < Ecco> I guess you get what you pay for
2023-12-06T21:14:44 < Ecco> Damn
2023-12-06T21:14:49 < Ecco> Just measured the pin
2023-12-06T21:14:53 < Ecco> 3.3V indeed
2023-12-06T21:14:54 < Ecco> damn
2023-12-06T21:15:00 < Ecco> That's… terrible
2023-12-06T21:16:27 < Ecco> Well, thanks jpa-
2023-12-06T21:16:31 < Ecco> That was extremely helpful
2023-12-06T21:16:35 < Ecco> (and kind of fun)
2023-12-06T21:16:40 < Ecco> So, I just measured
2023-12-06T21:16:42 < jpa-> https://sigrok.org/wimg/8/8c/LogicAnalyzer1.jpg  it seems like some clone PCBs have 100kohm pull-up resistors
2023-12-06T21:16:45 < jpa-> no idea why
2023-12-06T21:16:51 < Ecco> and every ingle pin has a pullu p
2023-12-06T21:17:03 < Ecco> Let me open mine and see
2023-12-06T21:17:11 < Ecco> But anyway, in practice, every pin is at 3.3V
2023-12-06T21:17:25 < PaulFertser> https://www.chrislewicki.com/articles/failurestory (spacecraft testing horror bed time story)
2023-12-06T21:19:02 < Ecco> jpa-: Mine's the same, without the NXP part
2023-12-06T21:19:56 < jpa-> so they were too cheap to include a 74LVC245 buffer
2023-12-06T21:20:06 < specing> PaulFertser: Who needs a horror story when we have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_1 ?
2023-12-06T21:20:10 < jpa-> not sure it provides any real value anyway, as FX2 inputs are 5V tolerant by themselves
2023-12-06T21:20:29 < jpa-> mine doesn't have the capacitors either
2023-12-06T21:21:16 < Ecco> Mine does have capacitors
2023-12-06T21:22:57 < Ecco> I don't have my original Salea tho
2023-12-06T21:23:00 < Ecco> I wish i did
2023-12-06T21:29:42 < Ecco> No i *really* wonder why they put pull-ups there
2023-12-06T21:33:39 < PaulFertser> specing: the more the better
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2023-12-06T23:23:04 < mawk> if P is a polynomial with integer coefficients, a is a positive integer, and P(1) = P(3) = P(5) = P(7) = a, P(2) = P(4) = P(6) = P(8) = -a; what is the minimum value of a?
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2023-12-06T23:26:25 < mawk> try this next zyp 
2023-12-06T23:26:31 < mawk> but first the x+y+z one
2023-12-06T23:26:58 < mawk> I tried to mislead you saying it's a geometry problem (which it can be, if you want) but interpreting as a polynomial problem is way more fructuous 
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2023-12-06T23:29:21 < mawk> if x+y+z = a and x²+y²+z² = b, then x, y, z are roots of P = X³ - aX² + (a²-b)/2 X + c
2023-12-06T23:29:37 < mawk> where c is some real number (which happens to be equal to -xyz)
2023-12-06T23:30:18 < Steffanx> 24
2023-12-06T23:30:25 < mawk> no
2023-12-06T23:30:31 < Steffanx> lol blame chatgtp
2023-12-06T23:30:37 < Steffanx> pt
2023-12-06T23:30:40 < mawk> chatgpt is extremely bad at maths
2023-12-06T23:30:46 < Steffanx> i know
2023-12-06T23:30:53 < mawk> if you get anything right from it it's by mistake 
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2023-12-06T23:31:21 < mawk> the minimum value of a is 315
2023-12-06T23:31:41 < mawk> 7!/2^4
2023-12-06T23:31:49 < mawk> but you have to prove why 
2023-12-06T23:32:05 < mawk> it involves powers of 2
--- Day changed to joulu 07 2023
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2023-12-07T01:52:45 < qyx> does any of it requires the fermat's last theorem?
2023-12-07T01:52:50 < qyx> -s
2023-12-07T01:53:24 < splud> great book, BTW (seriously)
2023-12-07T02:13:53 < mawk> no qyx
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2023-12-07T06:01:14 < ColdKeyboard> So the bootloader would work with RDP2 set?
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2023-12-07T08:09:32 < jpa-> ColdKeyboard: refman tells no
2023-12-07T08:09:56 < jpa-> custom bootloader would work if designed to do so
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2023-12-07T09:37:46 < jpa-> hmph.. built ZXSC410 reference circuit and it works
2023-12-07T09:38:10 < qyx> unbelievable
2023-12-07T09:38:58 < jpa-> now i have to figure out why my circuit where every component value is vastly different doesn't work
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2023-12-07T10:21:22 < qyx> those 5k1 are 10%, aren't they?
2023-12-07T10:21:25 < qyx> so 4k7 is fine?
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2023-12-07T10:41:30 < jpa-> yeah
2023-12-07T10:41:56 < jpa-> 4.7k 1% is fine, IIRC 4.7k 5% is not
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2023-12-07T11:06:38 < karlp> ^^
2023-12-07T11:06:59 < karlp> also, you don't hav eot use 5k1... you can use a constant current sink ;)
2023-12-07T11:07:20 < karlp> different r values too.
2023-12-07T11:07:33 < karlp> but I've not accumulated all of usb specs on this computer (yet?)
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2023-12-07T11:24:07 < qyx> jpa-: I hope nobody i using 5% anymore
2023-12-07T11:27:22 < jpa-> looks like my ZXSC410 trouble was caused by excessive ringing between the 470µH inductor and SS210 (70pF) output diode; adding 5.1 kohm snubber in parallel with the inductor fixed that and made feedback work correctly
2023-12-07T11:37:56 < qyx> [4100020.867720] hid-generic 0003:15A2:0080.0018: hiddev1,hidraw4: USB HID v1.10 Device [Freescale SemiConductor Inc  SE Blank 6ULL] on usb-0000:00:15.0-3.1/input0
2023-12-07T11:37:59 < qyx> weehee
2023-12-07T11:57:13 < qyx> ok it even boots lunex
2023-12-07T11:57:39 < qyx> time to compile openwrt for it and populate the rest of the board
2023-12-07T11:57:53 < MGF_Fabio> Hello, I cannot understend if the FLASHEx library is to be used instead of the FLASH library while programming for STM32L0. I ask this beacuse FLASH has only Word by Word pogramming, while FLASHEx has Byte and Halfword too
2023-12-07T12:04:08 < karlp> the what library?
2023-12-07T12:07:09 < jpa-> https://github.com/STMicroelectronics/stm32l0xx_hal_driver/blob/8bd27f904f149a46e794d0f0281e388342d8d6dc/Src/stm32l0xx_hal_flash_ex.c  vs.   https://github.com/STMicroelectronics/stm32l0xx_hal_driver/blob/8bd27f904f149a46e794d0f0281e388342d8d6dc/Src/stm32l0xx_hal_flash.c
2023-12-07T12:08:24 < zyp> let me guess, ramfunc vs regular flash func?
2023-12-07T12:08:26 < jpa-> i think flashex is for the special memory areas, like option bytes or data eeprom (if the device has it)
2023-12-07T12:11:17 < karlp> L0 has it.
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2023-12-07T12:40:06 < MGF_Fabio> yes
2023-12-07T12:41:17 < MGF_Fabio> I'm creating a bootloader and I'm unsure what library to use to clear/program the FLASH memory in which to put the FW
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2023-12-07T13:11:29 < jpa-> MGF_Fabio: FLASH
2023-12-07T13:27:50 < mawk> flosh
2023-12-07T13:37:50 < jpa-> mawk: do you floss daily?
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2023-12-07T13:53:34 < MGF_Fabio> jpa-: TY
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2023-12-07T13:57:29 < mawk> no
2023-12-07T14:08:29 < karlp> weird,kinetis has separate i2c pins for being master or slave.
2023-12-07T14:08:58 < karlp> also, unlike st, where "AF5" is always uart, or always i2c or whatever,  kinetis is just "hoho, we just packed it all in bois"
2023-12-07T14:09:41 < karlp> so sometimes it's af 2, 4,5 or 6.... for i2c... 
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2023-12-07T14:24:02 < jpa-> kind of makes sense, considering how different being I2C master vs. being I2C slave is
2023-12-07T14:28:49 < zyp> not necessarily
2023-12-07T14:29:33 < zyp> the g0 i2c periph can happily do multimaster
2023-12-07T14:40:23 < jpa-> do multimaster masters respond to other masters, or is it just bus busy detection?
2023-12-07T14:41:51 < zyp> there's no reason they can't
2023-12-07T14:45:24 < zyp> my testrack stuff runs the same firmware on each carrier card, i.e. both the master one that runs a rpc server on usb that can poke i2c and the slaves that runs rpc server on i2c
2023-12-07T14:46:04 < zyp> the i2c setup is common for both, only difference is that the master starts the usb tasks while the slaves starts the i2c server task
2023-12-07T14:47:35 < zyp> being able to do both slave and master at once would just be a matter of adding locking so that it can't start a master transaction while a slave transaction is ongoing, and that master events won't trigger the slave handlers
2023-12-07T14:49:08 < zyp> if I had more than one card with usb, it could make sense to do so, so that I could control the entire rack regardless of which card I plug into
2023-12-07T14:49:10 < jpa-> could be fun race condition when starting a master transaction, losing arbitration on address and then you realize you should be responding as a slave instead :)
2023-12-07T14:49:33 < zyp> yeah, naturally multimaster i2c comes with limitations
2023-12-07T14:50:39 < zyp> but in a setup where you're not likely to have collisions, it's fine
2023-12-07T15:15:52 < qyx> every single eshop has a "remember me" checkbox
2023-12-07T15:16:03 < qyx> except mouser, it has a "remember my username" instead
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2023-12-07T15:16:45 < machinehum> https://youtu.be/vaMxTSm53UU?si=Nl1M3DxdjCl1wnKs
2023-12-07T15:16:53 < machinehum> I didn't know milkv made a dasktop lol
2023-12-07T15:16:57 < machinehum> desktop
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2023-12-07T15:51:20 < jbo> moin
2023-12-07T15:52:37 < jbo> qyx, salty at mouser?
2023-12-07T16:06:48 < qyx> at every single eshop, they can be made non-ux-friendly in very creative ways
2023-12-07T16:11:04 < qyx> another one, accidentally left your mouse under the search input box and start typing the query, at the end press enter
2023-12-07T16:12:14 < qyx> no, mouser does not search for all parts matching your query, it shows you only the one which happened to be in the list of suggestions directly under the cursor at the instant you hit the enter
2023-12-07T16:21:55 < PaulFertser> https://badcyber.com/dieselgate-but-for-trains-some-heavyweight-hardware-hacking/
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2023-12-07T16:34:35 < qyx> PaulFertser: that's a good one
2023-12-07T16:35:47 < qyx> I wonder how many such "devices" are broken on purpose
2023-12-07T16:40:37 < karlp> fuck tons.
2023-12-07T16:41:06 < PaulFertser> Isn't that, ahem, fraudlent?
2023-12-07T16:41:17 < PaulFertser> And can't that lead to bankrupcy?
2023-12-07T16:41:19 < karlp> maybe...
2023-12-07T16:41:37 < karlp> a) ahs to be proven and b) has to be proven that it was contractually expected otherwise...
2023-12-07T16:41:52 < karlp> and even if it does, it would absolutely never lead to bankruptcy.
2023-12-07T16:41:58  * karlp points at VW...
2023-12-07T16:43:31 < PaulFertser> VW is special, too big to fail
2023-12-07T16:44:31 < karlp> lol
2023-12-07T16:44:37 < qyx> lolno, that "being blind" thing is pretty universal
2023-12-07T16:44:38 < karlp> you'd find that Newag would be too.
2023-12-07T16:44:44 < karlp> too big to fail doesn't mean very big at all.
2023-12-07T16:45:01 < karlp> also, you'd never get a fine big enough, nor any exec level responsibility
2023-12-07T16:45:24 < karlp> you let go of a couple of engineers, at best, and pay a fine that's far less than the wins you'd been making in contracatural service for instance.
2023-12-07T17:26:34  * qyx got his biggest 340 mm PCB
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--- Day changed pe joulu 08 2023
2023-12-08T00:28:07 < qyx> usb pros, using linux cdc_ether over usb-hs, testing with wget, I get about 3.8 MB/s
2023-12-08T00:28:15 < qyx> increasing MTU to 15000 I get about 12.6 MB/s
2023-12-08T00:28:21 < qyx> should I expect more?
2023-12-08T00:29:26 < qyx> oh ok reaching 100% CPU
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2023-12-08T12:05:01 < karlp> if you're going for the last few percent, NCM or EEM or whatever is somehwat more efficient iirc, but you've got to really want that bit extra...
2023-12-08T12:05:37 < karlp> I view the gadget networking as a super massive convenience for field work and a "console" style networking, but not something i'd ever view as having a critical performance path...
2023-12-08T12:10:18 < qyx> yeah I want that field diagnostic console functioanlity
2023-12-08T12:10:28 < qyx> except I want to be able to download measurement data too
2023-12-08T12:10:59 < qyx> ok not porting openwrt to imx6
2023-12-08T12:11:15 < qyx> not worth the hassle, I'll just use the generic imx6 rootfs
2023-12-08T12:11:29 < qyx> and I'll do u-boot and kernel separately
2023-12-08T12:11:38 < karlp> how big is the measurement data?
2023-12-08T12:11:48 < karlp> ~12MB/sec is pretty good,
2023-12-08T12:11:49 < qyx> 32G sd card
2023-12-08T12:11:52 < karlp> what were you hoping for?
2023-12-08T12:11:59 < qyx> at least 20-30 :>
2023-12-08T12:11:59 < karlp> 10G networking?
2023-12-08T12:12:23 < karlp> isn't ~12-13 the max for 100baset anyway?
2023-12-08T12:12:24 < qyx> sata/scsi over usb can happily do 35-40 MB/s
2023-12-08T12:12:31 < karlp> on usb3?
2023-12-08T12:12:34 < qyx> on usb2
2023-12-08T12:12:52 < karlp> oh, right, yeah, you've got 480 technically.
2023-12-08T12:13:04 < karlp> so you're getting 100M etehrnet speeds, and it's not enough for you...
2023-12-08T12:13:09 < qyx> that's why I am wondering if cdc_ether has so much overhead
2023-12-08T12:13:17 < jpa-> USB network cards can get close to that, so should be possible with linux gadget also
2023-12-08T12:13:18 < qyx> no, because I want usb speeds!
2023-12-08T12:13:39 < jpa-> at least those 4G modem thingies
2023-12-08T12:13:46 < karlp> but you're cpu limited you said aren't you?
2023-12-08T12:14:19 < qyx> yeah like if I am missing some.. tweak
2023-12-08T12:14:51 < qyx> we are not doing early 2000's routers anymore
2023-12-08T12:15:06 < qyx> not capable of saturating even 100 mbit/s
2023-12-08T12:15:18 < jpa-> https://support.xilinx.com/s/question/0D52E00006hpje7SAA/usb-ethernet-gadget-interface-performances-on-a-zcu106?language=en_US  they are complaining because they get only 33 MB/s
2023-12-08T12:26:46 < qyx> heh
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2023-12-08T13:31:21 < qyx> embedded linux is hard because it is such a mess
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2023-12-08T13:42:58 < Steffanx> Somehow you love going back to custom hw running lunix ;)
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2023-12-08T16:35:59 < Ecco> Is there a way to tell lead-free solder from leaded one?
2023-12-08T16:36:18 < Ecco> I bought a roll of eutectic SnPb solder, 0.3mm diameter
2023-12-08T16:36:46 < Ecco> but it behaves very differently from this other roll that I have: it feels sticky and doesn't flow as well.
2023-12-08T16:37:03 < Ecco> Could this solder be actually lead-free, in spite of what's written on the box?
2023-12-08T16:46:01 < karlp> flux cored vs non-flux cored, also different fluxes...
2023-12-08T16:46:36 < karlp> alright, back to vschode choding again.
2023-12-08T16:47:35 < PaulFertser> Ecco: probably by comparing the temperature at which it starts to melt
2023-12-08T16:52:25 < Ecco> PaulFertser: Hmm, good idea
2023-12-08T16:52:52 < Ecco> karlp: Hmm, good point. Well supposedly this 0.3mm is flux-cored, but maybe there's too little
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2023-12-08T17:22:14 < Ecco> Weird, ST just released a new version of their STM32WBA library
2023-12-08T17:22:20 < Ecco> and it now supports ZigBee and Thread?
2023-12-08T17:22:33 < Ecco> Even though no WBA part officially support those protocols?
2023-12-08T17:22:42 < Ecco> I guess they released that code before anouncing new parts?
2023-12-08T17:28:35 < Ecco> https://github.com/STMicroelectronics/STM32CubeWBA/tree/main/Projects
2023-12-08T17:28:56 < Ecco> So apparently there's going to be a new WBA55, with a Nucleo board and a DK board?
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2023-12-08T18:08:08 < karlp> taht happens more often than you think...
2023-12-08T18:08:14 < karlp> if you know where to look.
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2023-12-08T18:30:06 < jbo> ST being ST
2023-12-08T18:30:26 < jbo> they pump out stuff more frequently than I change underwear (which is daily)
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2023-12-08T19:04:31 < Steffanx> That's on the days you wear any jbo?
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2023-12-08T19:55:36 < jpa-> Ecco: it is quite normal that very thin solder needs additional flux
2023-12-08T19:58:16 < jpa-> Ecco: you can also do the paper test, if you drag the solder against a piece of paper, leaded solder leaves slightly darker stain
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2023-12-09T01:09:25 < qyx> Steffanx: because.. you know
2023-12-09T01:10:17 < qyx> but seriously, whoever has written if (NAND_ENABLED == false) enable_sdmmc(); should be treated appropriately
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2023-12-09T01:11:29 < qyx> so I, as a product user, must browse the BSP code to find out I actually need to *disable* NAND flash support altogether in order to not mask enabling of the second sdmmc controller
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2023-12-09T14:12:44 < analoq> do you think this pwm circuit would work for 25kHz when driven via a stm32 3.3V pin?
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2023-12-09T14:16:06 < analoq> https://i.imgur.com/kh9bk5f.png
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2023-12-09T18:16:00 < qyx> so I bought a SoM, the more advanced part with 512 MB of wham
2023-12-09T18:16:34 < qyx> surprise surprise, their SDK doesn't have DDR coefficients for it
2023-12-09T18:17:56 < qyx> my grave will say "died of ddr tuning"
2023-12-09T18:52:03 < Steffanx> Awh
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2023-12-09T19:23:33 < specing> F
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2023-12-09T20:03:49 < jpa-> analoq: should work; you could go for 10kohm on R5, 1 kohm passes unnecessarily much base current
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2023-12-09T21:02:55 < fenugrec> Saw one of these for the first time today : PXO-1000 'programmable' oscillator (built-in dividers), with a window for some reason https://www.silicon-ark.co.uk/image/cache/catalog/data/crystals/rs301-864-statek-programmable-oscillator-1000x1000.jpg
2023-12-09T21:03:11 < fenugrec> not sure why there's a window at all there
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2023-12-09T21:07:08 < jpa-> so that you can check if it is oscillating
2023-12-09T21:07:51 < qyx> with a lazzor
2023-12-09T21:09:25 < fenugrec> why of course
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2023-12-09T22:03:59 < octorian> Was just taking a look at the bootloader for one of my projects again, wondering why its so big.  The target has 512k of flash, where right now I've allocated 128k for the bootloader and 384k for the real firmware.   I'd obviously like to move that dividing line, though the bootloader seems to be nearly 100k.
2023-12-09T22:04:45 < octorian> Looks like the largest single portion of that bootloader code is "printf and friends".  I actually do need some string formatting in there, but I should rewrite it to not use printf.  Could lop off >30k by doing that, based on some simple tests.
2023-12-09T22:05:49 < octorian> The other "big" parts of the bootloader are USB host support and a display library, but those are kinda necessary.  It installs the firmware from a file on a USB stick, and needs to display some status info and instructions.
2023-12-09T22:06:05 < qyx> what bootloader is it?
2023-12-09T22:06:17 < octorian> Its one I mostly wrote myself.
2023-12-09T22:07:44 < octorian> I can replace the display library with a bunch of raw SPI commands, but that would make it more difficult to provide a useful UI for firmware updating.
2023-12-09T22:08:24 < octorian> And for the USB host support, libraries that support STM32 as a host and are at least somewhat open-source are very slim pickings.
2023-12-09T22:12:21 < octorian> Though nixing the printf() calls, and cranking up build optimization a little, I could probably get it under 64k with at least a little headroom.  Probably worth a shot.
2023-12-09T22:34:24 < ventYl> giving lto a chance might be beneficial
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2023-12-09T22:38:48 < octorian> I have tried LTO before, but it usually causes unexpected bugs to creep in and always feels like I'm taking a risk I'd rather avoid.
2023-12-09T22:39:21 < octorian> (on another project, with tighter flash requirements, I originally used LTO for the bootloader but shut it off as soon as I moved to a part with slightly more flash where I didn't need it)
2023-12-09T22:40:26 < ventYl> IME stuff that LTO reveals are bugs in the code
2023-12-09T22:40:54 < ventYl> and you can vastly increase your mileage by activating LTO for the application while disabling it for lowest levels of HAL
2023-12-09T22:43:56 < octorian> I think the place it bit me the most was some weird behavior around the specific bootloader function that launched the actual firmware.
2023-12-09T22:44:51 < octorian> How do you selectively disable it?  Are there specific compiler attributes, or by selective use of the command line flags for it?
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2023-12-09T23:38:02 < qyx> Kernel image @ 0x81000000 [ 0x000000 - 0xacafe0 ]
2023-12-09T23:38:21 < qyx> that acafe0 size.. wut
2023-12-09T23:38:21 < karlp> succes?
2023-12-09T23:39:59 < qyx> nope, I finally bent and compiled v2024.01-rc4 u-boot and it runs just fine using half the memory, but it fails to boot the kernel which I know works
2023-12-09T23:40:44 < qyx> the kernel image size looks suspicious
2023-12-09T23:41:31 < karlp> what, 11M? not really.
2023-12-09T23:41:39 < karlp> not if it's not been trimmed or optimuized at all?
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2023-12-09T23:42:37 < qyx> oh fuk, the size is byte-exact
2023-12-09T23:42:48 < qyx> I just assumed acafe0 is like babecafe
2023-12-09T23:42:57 < qyx> ie. just a placeholder and I got it wrong
2023-12-09T23:43:13 < qyx> but it is 10.8 MiB (11,317,216 bytes)
2023-12-09T23:43:40 < qyx> but hey, no worky
2023-12-09T23:56:07 < qyx> heh the problem is apparently with the memory/mmu config, I get page faults
2023-12-09T23:59:19 < qyx> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/sNHCD
--- Day changed su joulu 10 2023
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2023-12-10T00:32:59 < fenugrec> octorian I've used this self-contained printf implementation in the past, satisfactory http://github.com/mpaland/printf
2023-12-10T00:33:28 < fenugrec> a few kB on CM0 with no %f formatters and other reasonable limitations
2023-12-10T00:33:46 < octorian> fenugrec, I use that too, on one project of mine where I need floating point string formatting, and also need to be very mindful of stack usage.
2023-12-10T00:40:23 < fenugrec> cool. As was also mentioned higher, LTO can be substantial. Granted it can be tricky for a bootloader, will probably run into tight corners of the C spec that the toolchain will absolutely take advantage of,  but can be done
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2023-12-10T00:47:15 < fenugrec> (actually IIRC was using a fork of that printf lib, http://github.com/eyalroz/printf , probably had a few fixes I needed)
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2023-12-10T02:10:35 < qyx> nah it is definitely a ddr issue
2023-12-10T02:11:04 < qyx> how on earth am I supposed to run that nxp's windoze tuning sh*t
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2023-12-10T02:34:41 < qyx> lolworks
2023-12-10T02:34:56 < octorian> fenugrec, damn, that's *way* ahead of the original version.  Probably worth looking into, and maybe switching to. 
2023-12-10T02:36:06 < qyx> even interwebs work
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2023-12-10T08:09:19 < Phantom> hi there, I was installing klipper on my bigtreetech skr2 board (STM32F407VGT6). I made it use a faster PWM frequency (600Hz, well bellow the 31k that marlin use). It stopped responding. Ended up with a fried SD card and fried STM32... how can that happen?!?
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2023-12-10T10:01:14 < PaulFertser> Phantom: fried?!
2023-12-10T10:01:24 < Phantom> yes, fried
2023-12-10T10:01:26 < PaulFertser> You see IC damaged physically?
2023-12-10T10:01:36 < Phantom> no physical damage
2023-12-10T10:01:37 < PaulFertser> And the SD card too?
2023-12-10T10:01:44 < PaulFertser> Probably unrelated ESD damage or something.
2023-12-10T10:01:46 < Phantom> the sd card almost burned my finger
2023-12-10T10:02:18 < PaulFertser> Probably that klipper binary was compiled for some other board?
2023-12-10T10:02:45 < Phantom> it have no board specific, but mcu specific
2023-12-10T10:03:04 < Phantom> then a config tell it what to do
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2023-12-10T10:05:53 < PaulFertser> Phantom: I mean probably you firmware used wrong pin configuration, inappropriate for the board and e.g. configured a pin going to SD card as output when it should be an input.
2023-12-10T10:06:08 < Phantom> it was working
2023-12-10T10:06:18 < Phantom> I only made the PWM faster and boom
2023-12-10T10:07:15 < PaulFertser> Doesn't sound related.
2023-12-10T10:07:25 < PaulFertser> Do you connect with SWD to the target MCU?
2023-12-10T10:07:38 < Phantom> I did tried, my programmer can't connect to the mcu
2023-12-10T10:08:58 < PaulFertser> Phantom: even with target reset pulled low?
2023-12-10T10:09:18 < Phantom> I tried that too, and nope
2023-12-10T10:10:01 < Phantom> the sd card is not needed
2023-12-10T10:11:28 < Phantom> the only thing I can guess is that somehow it messed with the clock and overclocked it and caused issues
2023-12-10T10:11:46 < Phantom> or the mcu had issues and it just finished it
2023-12-10T10:13:08 < Phantom> I was chassing a bug on marlin where it was skipping tx data
2023-12-10T10:13:27 < Phantom> I now wonder if it could have been an hardware bug/fault that was developping
2023-12-10T10:16:55 < jpa-> are stm32 vdd voltages ok when you measure?
2023-12-10T10:16:57 < Phantom> that or something caused a bug and it killed the rom bootloader (which from what I read would really be in protected flash and not in rom)
2023-12-10T10:17:09 < Phantom> yes, 3.31V
2023-12-10T10:17:29 < Phantom> and 5V suply is 4.97V
2023-12-10T10:18:28 < jpa-> maybe the pwm freq somehow caused voltage spikes to supply rails
2023-12-10T10:19:06 < Phantom> I kinda doubt it, I set 600Hz and marlin uses 31k
2023-12-10T10:19:06 < jpa-> i recently had a 3.3V regulator output 5V due to EMI coupling to feedback
2023-12-10T10:19:28 < jpa-> lower freq can mean higher ripple
2023-12-10T10:19:36 < Phantom> default is 10Hz
2023-12-10T10:20:16 < Phantom> for the heaters...   hmm not sure for the lights
2023-12-10T10:23:59 < jpa-> i think frying sd card by io conflict is rare, vdd overvoltage sounds more likely
2023-12-10T10:24:20 < qyx> 600 Hz on the heater?
2023-12-10T10:25:14 < Phantom> I wanted 600 on the light
2023-12-10T10:25:29 < qyx> the driver !ay not be rated for such freq even if aomehif else is using it
2023-12-10T10:25:35 < qyx> the heater is probably a bit inductive
2023-12-10T10:25:45 < Phantom> and was planning for 60 on the heater, but it said I can't have different freq so I went with 600 for all
2023-12-10T10:25:47 < jpa-> the schematic uses AS1117-3.3 with ceramic caps, a combination known to be unstable
2023-12-10T10:25:47 < qyx> *if something
2023-12-10T10:25:53 < Phantom> the heater never went on
2023-12-10T10:26:12 < Phantom> I did not get to power it up
2023-12-10T10:26:43 < jpa-> there are 1117 regulator models that are stable with ceramics, but AS1117 datasheet specs 0.5ohm ESR
2023-12-10T10:27:53 < PaulFertser> Interesting
2023-12-10T10:28:05 < PaulFertser> Yes, that's of course a much better theory.
2023-12-10T10:28:05 < Phantom> anyway, I ordered a new board... and won't be touching klipper again :D
2023-12-10T10:29:01 < jpa-> if you have some signal gen with 600Hz output, you could connect in to the fried board and see if it causes anything weird with vdd
2023-12-10T10:29:23 < Phantom> interessing    might try
2023-12-10T10:30:00 < Phantom> but yeah, since both the mcu and sd card got fried... it was probably power related
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2023-12-10T14:45:14 < drzacek> hello there
2023-12-10T14:46:56 < drzacek> hi. anyone knows how can I program stm8, without proper stlink? I seem to have lost my stlink dongle and I need this tiny stm8 board to turn some LEDs on and off for tomorrow. I have bluepill (with stm32), nucleo board (which has stlink, but apparently no SWIM for stm8) and various other MCU boards available? can I do some DIY programmer out of it?
2023-12-10T14:58:13 < qyx> I guess ft232 dongle could work
2023-12-10T15:00:47 < qyx> also interwebs say stlink shoukd support swim
2023-12-10T15:01:22 < PaulFertser> drzacek: hm, does it not have UART bootloader?
2023-12-10T15:02:16 < PaulFertser> stlink supports SWIM, but probably the necessary separate pin is not soldered on nucleo.
2023-12-10T15:02:47 < PaulFertser> Probably reflashing bluepill to stlink makes sense. There was a bootloader on github and then you can use st updater utility.
2023-12-10T15:03:04 < PaulFertser> But UART ROM bootloader should be the easiest.
2023-12-10T15:11:07 < drzacek> PaulFertser: I am not sure. I assumed it doesnt have serial bootloader
2023-12-10T15:11:45 < PaulFertser> drzacek: https://www.st.com/resource/en/user_manual/cd00201192-stm8-bootloader-stmicroelectronics.pdf
2023-12-10T15:12:14 < PaulFertser> https://github.com/gicking/stm8gal
2023-12-10T15:14:28 < PaulFertser> drzacek: you can probably flash this https://github.com/Krakenw/Stlink-Bootloaders to your bluepill and then use st utility to flash full stlink firmware with swim support.
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2023-12-10T15:42:52 < drzacek> okay got the stlink fw flashed to bluepill, or so it seems
2023-12-10T15:46:49 < drzacek> sooo whats the pinout?
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2023-12-10T16:35:39 < drzacek> okay I found my stlink in the oven
2023-12-10T16:36:21 < drzacek> I can flash my stm8 using arduino ide now
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2023-12-10T18:24:25 < mawk> why was a stlink in your oven drzacek 
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2023-12-10T20:06:03 < drzacek> mawk: cause I started to turn mini oven into reflow oven. and it has stm32 as controller. I just cleaned it up once quickly and forgot I left it there
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2023-12-10T22:26:47 < PaulFertser> drzacek: I assumed you just take a look at stlink schematics to see the pinout.
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2023-12-10T22:53:49 < drzacek> PaulFertser: I think I found it, but it refused to work with it anyway. unsure what was the problem. luckily found the genuine clone later
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--- Day changed ma joulu 11 2023
2023-12-11T00:06:53 < octorian> So I was playing around with SEGGER RTT output for logging again, and noticed an interesting "mismatch" type of problem.
2023-12-11T00:07:19 < octorian> Compared to UART logging, it is faster to write from the target code, but the viewer is slower to display on the desktop.
2023-12-11T00:08:35 < octorian> Which creates two curious issues:  Code that was sending log messages now runs faster, thus exposing timing dependencies.  But, if log messages get dumped too quickly (like a screenfull of startup messages), then log messages get dropped and never displayed.
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2023-12-11T00:48:00 < karlp> make your rtt buffer bigger?
2023-12-11T00:49:18 < octorian> That's how I "solved" it, but it still felt a little like a kludge.
2023-12-11T00:49:44 < octorian> If the desktop-side app actually collected the data as fast as it was being written, it wouldn't be an issue.
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2023-12-11T01:04:47 < karlp> the desktop side collecting is limited by your debugger clock speed.
2023-12-11T01:04:58 < karlp> and yeah. normally it's faster than a 115200 uart...
2023-12-11T01:05:03 < karlp> so... what are you doing?
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2023-12-11T04:17:29 < MGF_Fabio> Hello, I find it difficult to understand why *(uint8_t*)&buffer[index] works correctly and return the value pointed at buffer[index] but *(uint32_t*)&buffer[index] is throwing a hardfault. The 4 bytes starting at buffer[index] are there, so I dunno why this error happens
2023-12-11T04:28:57 < specing> MGF_Fabio: because the uint32_t version is actually accessing memory at 4*index in the original
2023-12-11T04:29:26 < MGF_Fabio> Ah!!!
2023-12-11T04:29:52 < specing> are you sure you had enough coffee before putting so many * and & on the same line??
2023-12-11T04:30:11 < MGF_Fabio> it's 3AM here, so... nope
2023-12-11T04:30:13 < MGF_Fabio> :D
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2023-12-11T04:32:27 < MGF_Fabio> specing: How can I retrieve the uint32 value starting at that index then?  
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2023-12-11T04:35:33 < specing> MGF_Fabio: ugly version: index/4 (and keep endianness in mind, might not work)
2023-12-11T04:35:50 < MGF_Fabio> it's little endian
2023-12-11T04:36:02 < specing> better(maybe?): put the uint8_t pointer and the uint32_t in a union
2023-12-11T04:36:05 < MGF_Fabio> but it's not aligned
2023-12-11T04:36:18 < MGF_Fabio> index is 5
2023-12-11T04:36:54 < specing> Well, more understandable but more verbose would be:
2023-12-11T04:37:19 < specing> (b[i] << 24) + (b[i] << 16) + (b[i] << 8) + b[i]
2023-12-11T04:38:09 < MGF_Fabio> that could work
2023-12-11T04:39:16 < MGF_Fabio> seems weird there's a way to just say: go there THEN take 4
2023-12-11T04:39:41 < MGF_Fabio> ther's not*
2023-12-11T04:39:49 < specing> try other permutations of * and &
2023-12-11T04:40:34 < MGF_Fabio> I think I'll stuck with the verbose method
2023-12-11T04:40:58 < MGF_Fabio> too much * and & for my taste
2023-12-11T04:44:24 < MGF_Fabio> thank you 
2023-12-11T04:44:31 < fenugrec> don't union a u8 * and u32, 
2023-12-11T04:45:27 < fenugrec> if you're not 100% sure your platform can do unaligned u32 reads, you need to use the verbose version with the shifts and hope the compiler does the Right Thing
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2023-12-11T04:54:47 < specing> Wouldn't the union force/suggest-to compiler to align the 8-bit array's start to make 32-bit reads aligned?
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2023-12-11T04:54:54 < fenugrec> no
2023-12-11T04:55:57 < fenugrec> fairly certain that is UB , it may work but you may also get fun hardfaults
2023-12-11T04:56:09 < fenugrec> or compiler warnings if you're lucky
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2023-12-11T05:05:55 < russell--> hi, i have an stm32_f4ve board from china, zephyr calls it black_f407ve, i have an stlink v2 and openocd, but not enough documentation to figure out how to write an openocd cfg file for the board and program an elf file, the internet doesn't seem to know, does anybody have pointers?
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2023-12-11T08:05:59 < jpa-> russell--: -f interface/stlink.cfg -f target/stm32f4xx.cfg
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2023-12-11T09:10:17 < russell--> only one x
2023-12-11T09:21:43 < qyx> it evolved over time
2023-12-11T09:25:17 < jpa-> maybe one day we can just type "openocd" and it will detect usb id and then swd id
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2023-12-11T11:03:19 < karlp> tell me about it.
2023-12-11T11:03:42 < karlp> I tried briefly to at least make a "stm32" cfg, instead of per family, but it's so connected to the different flash drivers :|
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2023-12-11T11:44:57 < mawk> 133⁵ + 110⁵ + 84⁵ + 27⁵ = n⁵, what is n? no calculator allowed
2023-12-11T11:46:39 < karlp> the first letter after m?
2023-12-11T11:57:29 < mawk> :(
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2023-12-11T14:06:35 < karlp> ok, esp-idf contribution staged... now we start a clock on how long it will take to get through red-tape here..
2023-12-11T14:23:59 < qyx> lold karl & mawk
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2023-12-11T16:36:57 < nomorekaki> how do I make struct have default values that can be overriden?
2023-12-11T16:37:25 < nomorekaki> individual values overriden not the struct value by whole
2023-12-11T16:37:59 < nomorekaki> I have a massive struct and need to do rather massive arrays by hand
2023-12-11T16:38:28 < nomorekaki> but I need to maybe touch 2-5 items at a time
2023-12-11T16:47:02 < mawk> have you found n yet zyp
2023-12-11T16:47:10 < mawk> it's 144 according to my calculations
2023-12-11T16:54:14 < mawk> the period of a^m mod 3, 5, 7 and 8 will be interesting to look at
2023-12-11T16:54:24 < mawk> to determine what n is
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2023-12-11T16:54:44 < mawk> 3*5*7*8 = 840 which is largely enough to determine n
2023-12-11T16:54:56 < mawk> if you get n mod 840 you get n
2023-12-11T16:57:43 < mawk> a^5 = a mod 3, a^5 = a mod 5, a^5 = a^-1 mod 7 and a^5 = a mod 8
2023-12-11T16:58:07 < mawk> provided gcd(a, 3) = 1 and so on
2023-12-11T16:58:52 < mawk> here it turns out n^5 = 0 mod 3 and n^5 = 0 mod 2, but that also means n = 0 mod 3 and n = 0 mod 8 
2023-12-11T16:59:01 < mawk> now you have to figure out n mod 5 and n mod 7
2023-12-11T16:59:07 < mawk> and then combine everything in a smart way
2023-12-11T17:03:15 < Steffanx> Yes
2023-12-11T17:06:40 < qyx> nomorekaki: there is a gcc extension for that if you feel sinful
2023-12-11T17:06:53 < qyx> https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/Designated-Inits.html
2023-12-11T17:06:55 < qyx> range initializers
2023-12-11T17:07:40 < nomorekaki> interesting but not what I'm asking I think
2023-12-11T17:08:37 < qyx> you said massive arrays by hand
2023-12-11T17:09:06 < nomorekaki> on which I want to change only certain struct items per index
2023-12-11T17:09:42 < nomorekaki> from default struct value
2023-12-11T17:10:04 < nomorekaki> that is conviniently non-zero
2023-12-11T17:14:50 < fenugrec> put struct in separate file, make a script to generate said file
2023-12-11T17:15:50 < nomorekaki> I'm afraid it will be something like that
2023-12-11T17:16:13 < nomorekaki> I need to think if macro could do override
2023-12-11T17:18:29 < nomorekaki> or some half-way solution
2023-12-11T17:18:36 < fenugrec> can you not just 0-initialize and use your own code to populate it ? that way it ends up in .bss instead of bloating your fw image
2023-12-11T17:18:56 < nomorekaki> not doing fw
2023-12-11T17:19:16 < nomorekaki> doing test code
2023-12-11T17:19:23 < nomorekaki> in C I know
2023-12-11T17:19:25 < qyx> I would make a template as const, then init by copy & modify the required field
2023-12-11T17:19:27 < nomorekaki> I'm bad
2023-12-11T17:19:39 < qyx> aha
2023-12-11T17:19:43 < nomorekaki> qyx: yes
2023-12-11T17:19:51 < nomorekaki> that's the solution
2023-12-11T17:20:43 < nomorekaki> this is not firmware code so copy modify is certainly allowed
2023-12-11T17:22:08 < nomorekaki> trying to solve a problem I don't have
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2023-12-11T17:39:05 < nomorekaki> I just need to figure out how to make modifier array
2023-12-11T17:39:36 < nomorekaki> as cannot differentiate between initial 0 or assigned 0
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2023-12-11T18:06:19 < nomorekaki> hey
2023-12-11T18:06:33 < nomorekaki> what happens if in initializer you initialize same item twice?
2023-12-11T18:06:39 < nomorekaki> second one sticks?
2023-12-11T18:10:17 < nomorekaki> I'm testing that
2023-12-11T18:11:00 < nomorekaki> easy macro thing for overriding if I can just glue the modifiers after defaults and thats it
2023-12-11T18:13:39 < mawk> yes
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2023-12-11T19:07:01 < analoq> jpa-: thanks.
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2023-12-11T19:26:37 < Steffanx> What are you innovating mr nomorekaki ?
2023-12-11T20:16:27 < nomorekaki> tests
2023-12-11T20:16:44 < nomorekaki> stuff aint legit without tests
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2023-12-11T20:27:54 < fenugrec> word
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2023-12-11T20:31:07 < Steffanx> but what the the innovation that needs those tests mr nomorekaki ?
2023-12-11T20:33:27 < Steffanx> lol zyp . Today was the first time i ran into the jlink issue you mentioned here a while back. The one where jlink seems to cache things and fucks up. Ran into it twice today. And it both times took me a while to realize, weird shit was happening -_-
2023-12-11T20:52:55 < nomorekaki> https://godbolt.org/z/qE7bTTzr9 it doesn't work as macro sees the input as list of arguments
2023-12-11T20:59:04 < nomorekaki> might need to use recursion
2023-12-11T20:59:09 < nomorekaki> and ...
2023-12-11T21:01:41 < Steffanx> #define TEST_STRUCT_OVERRIDE(...) {.a=1,.b=2,.c=3,.d=4, __VA_ARGS__} might work whatever you are doing
2023-12-11T21:02:25 < nomorekaki> ah yes just figured it out too
2023-12-11T21:02:34 < nomorekaki> __VA_ARGS__ expands automatically
2023-12-11T21:02:42 < nomorekaki> never used it
2023-12-11T21:04:09 < Steffanx> i'm still not sure why one would do this, but .. ok
2023-12-11T21:05:40 < nomorekaki> to have defaults that I can override
2023-12-11T21:05:57 < nomorekaki> this is also easier than modifier list for copy-modify
2023-12-11T21:06:02 < nomorekaki> certainly
2023-12-11T21:07:42 < nomorekaki> https://godbolt.org/z/qv98714xY and now those variables are const too
2023-12-11T21:08:57 < Steffanx> is that last part relevant for test code?
2023-12-11T21:09:09 < nomorekaki> no
2023-12-11T21:09:17 < nomorekaki> but I want it so
2023-12-11T21:09:54 < Steffanx> ok boss :)
2023-12-11T21:10:25 < nomorekaki> remember steff always struggle to get it const
2023-12-11T21:10:55 < Steffanx> y u no c++ and constexpr the shit out of it?
2023-12-11T21:11:18 < nomorekaki> *yaiks*
2023-12-11T21:12:08 < Steffanx> Thats too much struggles even for you?
2023-12-11T21:13:03 < nomorekaki> this one doesn't need templates or constexpr too badly so I rather C
2023-12-11T21:13:09 < nomorekaki> or object
2023-12-11T21:14:01 < nomorekaki> altought I already made it have instance struct
2023-12-11T21:14:53 < nomorekaki> *an
2023-12-11T21:15:41 < nomorekaki> I tried C++ and it got out of hand
2023-12-11T21:18:53 < Steffanx> nomorekaki is not to be trusted with the powers of c++
2023-12-11T21:20:34 < specing> I tried C++ and it got out of hand out of hand out of hand out of hand out of hand out of hand out of hand out of handSegmentation Fault
2023-12-11T21:21:03 < specing> though this would hold better for C :)
2023-12-11T21:21:35 < veverak> have you tried using only uthe parts of C++ you are comfortable with withou the entire thing?
2023-12-11T21:21:42 < veverak> like... for example... default values for members of struct
2023-12-11T21:27:36 < nomorekaki> look at the macro we made with steff
2023-12-11T21:27:42 < nomorekaki> it doesn't get better than that
2023-12-11T21:30:09 < veverak> in C? it does not, in C++ you don't need the macro: https://godbolt.org/z/rrqn6Meq5
2023-12-11T21:33:44 < nomorekaki> :O
2023-12-11T21:36:08 < nomorekaki> you can have default values in C too but I guess assign operator would overwrite all of them?
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2023-12-11T21:43:22 < qyx> c plus what?
2023-12-11T21:45:39 < Steffanx> #
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2023-12-11T22:43:07 < Laurenceb_> sup
2023-12-11T22:43:09 < Laurenceb_> thankyou
2023-12-11T22:43:21 < Laurenceb_> now I can troll the channel again!         /s
2023-12-11T22:45:06 < nomorekaki> how is hypertrain?
2023-12-11T22:52:28 < qyx> how is the basement girl?
2023-12-11T22:57:48 < nomorekaki> is the basement girl still around?
2023-12-11T22:58:01 < nomorekaki> wasnt that like a while ago?
2023-12-11T23:11:33 < mawk> what basement gurl
2023-12-11T23:12:21 < nomorekaki> Laurenceb_ kept some rus girl in his basement
2023-12-11T23:12:41 < nomorekaki> or something like that
2023-12-11T23:13:57 < nomorekaki> bbl>
2023-12-11T23:17:26 < Laurenceb_> lulwut
2023-12-11T23:17:59 < Laurenceb_> that was previous, she used to hide in air con vent to see if I was watching da pronz
2023-12-11T23:23:08 < PaulFertser> Were you ever?
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2023-12-11T23:29:11 < Laurenceb_> no comment lol
2023-12-11T23:29:30 < Laurenceb_>  /s/ ceiling cat / ceiling russian grrrl
2023-12-11T23:37:44 < Laurenceb_> is it possible to terminate optic fibre by "polishing" using wet and dry paper?
2023-12-11T23:38:42 < qyx> what about to terminate it properly
2023-12-11T23:38:49 < qyx> there are no polish gel connectors
2023-12-11T23:42:11 < Laurenceb_> yeah I need to fit toslink to a silica fibre
2023-12-11T23:42:18 < Laurenceb_> good luck getting that off the shelf
2023-12-11T23:42:55 < qyx> lol
2023-12-11T23:43:28 < qyx> so a 1 mm core POF into a 9/125 or so?
2023-12-11T23:43:30 < qyx> without optics?
2023-12-11T23:43:31 < Laurenceb_> is it a bad idea to try to superglue silica fibre? Should I use epoxy?
2023-12-11T23:43:47 < Laurenceb_> nah, I have 230um ferrule adaptors
2023-12-11T23:44:09 < qyx> yes but the light will not simply collimate in the ferrule
2023-12-11T23:44:10 < Laurenceb_> that fit into the POF connector, but I need to stick 230um multimode silica fibre into them
2023-12-11T23:44:32 < Laurenceb_> sure, I need to properly finish the end of the fibre, but I dont have the tools
2023-12-11T23:45:29 < qyx> maybe get a gel FO splice?
2023-12-11T23:45:44 < qyx> and do FO to FO without connectors/ferrules
2023-12-11T23:45:52 < qyx> ik if it aligns properly
2023-12-11T23:47:43 < qyx> there is apparently a silicone optical coupling gel for that purpose
2023-12-11T23:47:48 < Laurenceb_> ok
2023-12-11T23:48:19 < qyx> I have never heard of anyone using paper to polish a fo
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2023-12-12T01:53:55 < Laurenceb_> top keeek https://nitter.net/RokoMijic/status/1734349953437225080#m
2023-12-12T01:54:05 < Laurenceb_> the state of Musk matchmaker guy
2023-12-12T01:54:33 < Laurenceb_> tfw I know this guy irl before he was efamous
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2023-12-12T12:13:19 < jpa-> meh, seems like STM32 GPIOs are not 60V tolerant
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2023-12-12T13:40:18 < karlp> veverak: remember that you can't use desginated initializers in structs until new c++ ...
2023-12-12T13:40:43 < karlp> I mean, c++17 is new enough though, so probably ok ...
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2023-12-12T15:21:09 < nomorekaki> I have inline function to be called by interrupt in my library
2023-12-12T15:21:50 < nomorekaki> it has a ton of assistant functions
2023-12-12T15:22:23 < nomorekaki> can I make them static
2023-12-12T15:27:36 < mawk> the stupidest thing about designated initializers in C++ is that you can't change the order karlp 
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2023-12-12T16:10:41 < qyx> karlp: and even then you have to watch the ordering
2023-12-12T16:11:46 < jbo> lets everybody complain about something
2023-12-12T16:12:13 < jbo> -> I don't like connecting dev kits with jumper wires
2023-12-12T16:28:59 < ventYl> mawk: you can do { .member = value; .anothermember = value };
2023-12-12T16:34:34 < qyx> oh lol mawk
2023-12-12T16:34:46 < qyx> me blind
2023-12-12T16:35:07 < qyx> ventYl: but not the other way around
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2023-12-12T16:53:41 < veverak> karlp: of corse I know that :)
2023-12-12T16:55:35 < bitmask> good morning
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2023-12-12T17:25:14 < ventYl> qyx: what's the other way around?
2023-12-12T17:26:08 < mawk> they have spicy salmiakk at work
2023-12-12T17:26:10 < mawk> I tried one
2023-12-12T17:26:14 < mawk> it's...interesting
2023-12-12T17:26:41 < mawk> if they can eat shark fermented in piss of course they can eat salty licorice up there
2023-12-12T18:05:07 < qyx> Bus 001 Device 003: ID 1e0e:9001 SimTech, Incorporated SimTech SIM7000
2023-12-12T18:05:08 < qyx> weehee
2023-12-12T18:05:18 < qyx> ventYl: the ordering is fixed
2023-12-12T18:07:45 < karlp> and you can't leave gaps in the middle either, it's super lame :)
2023-12-12T18:40:15 < qyx> Tue Dec 12 16:32:06 2023 daemon.notice netifd: Interface 'nbiot' is now up
2023-12-12T18:40:37 < qyx> achievement unlocked
2023-12-12T18:41:14 < qyx> 64 bytes from 8.8.8.8: seq=0 ttl=57 time=3212.973 ms
2023-12-12T18:41:16 < qyx> kinda works
2023-12-12T18:41:58 < qyx> sim7000 with openwrt, zero hassle, much cool, so approve
2023-12-12T18:42:16  * karlp cheers
2023-12-12T18:42:48 < qyx> o/\o
2023-12-12T18:44:13 < fenugrec> 3.2second ping ? what is this, RFC2549
2023-12-12T18:45:09 < qyx> nbiot
2023-12-12T18:46:14 < qyx> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/uu9D6
2023-12-12T18:52:35 < zyp> jpa-, the FT ones are rated to VDD+4V, so if you just set VDD to 56V it should be fine
2023-12-12T18:58:08 < jpa-> i think a 3.3V pin might have survived if the clamping diodes had been strong enough, considering my 60V source is limited to 1mA
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2023-12-12T19:05:17 < zyp> ah, so the problem is that it was a FT pin, because they don't have clamping diodes
2023-12-12T19:06:14 < jpa-> yeah
2023-12-12T19:06:32 < jpa-> (the problem definitely wasn't that i slipped my probe)
2023-12-12T19:06:50 < zyp> :)
2023-12-12T19:08:15 < jpa-> didn't just break a GPIO, the whole chip became a diode with 0.9V forward voltage from VDD to GND
2023-12-12T19:08:33 < zyp> yeah, I've seen that failure mode before
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2023-12-12T23:10:27 < qyx> I like those 2FF push-push connectors
2023-12-12T23:10:33 < qyx> death to microsim
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2023-12-12T23:27:37 < qyx> linux pros, what's the correct way of obtaining lunex kernel nowadays
2023-12-12T23:27:46 < qyx> is https://github.com/torvalds/linux legit?
2023-12-12T23:28:36 < PaulFertser> qyx: why not git.kernel.org ?
2023-12-12T23:30:05 < qyx> wut why is there like 2780 repositories
2023-12-12T23:30:47 < PaulFertser> OpenWrt gets it from kernel.mk:      LINUX_SITE:=https://git.kernel.org/torvalds/t
2023-12-12T23:30:58 < PaulFertser> Kernel devs need many repos.
2023-12-12T23:31:48 < qyx> aha so I need to go into his repo
2023-12-12T23:32:31 < qyx> no gitflow, single branch, pretty lame
2023-12-12T23:32:38 < PaulFertser> Yes, https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/
2023-12-12T23:32:53 < qyx> so it is the exact same one as on githubz
2023-12-12T23:33:05 < karlp> did octorian ever sort out why their RTT readout was so slow?
2023-12-12T23:33:34 < PaulFertser> github mirror is synced yes
2023-12-12T23:33:47 < qyx> k thanks
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2023-12-12T23:33:54 < karlp> github linux.git browser is busted thogh, because it only shows first 1000 files in a directory....
2023-12-12T23:34:06 < karlp> git.kernel.org you just have to rememberhow to browse to torvalds....
2023-12-12T23:34:08 < qyx> let's try v6.6
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2023-12-12T23:39:53 < octorian> karlp, I think the issue isn't so much that its slow, but a side-effect of how it works.  RTT seems to write to a circular buffer device-side, and poll that buffer at some interval host-side.  Because there's no device-side latency, its VERY easy for the device to overflow that buffer faster than the host scrapes data out of it.
2023-12-12T23:40:29 < octorian> Meanwhile, UART logging actually does induce a bit of device-side latency, which naturally avoids that problem.
2023-12-12T23:43:11 < karlp> yeah, I'm still not used to ever hearing anyone say that rtt was slower...
2023-12-12T23:43:20 < karlp> I'm really curous what's wrong with your setup.
2023-12-12T23:44:15 < octorian> Its possible nothing is wrong with my setup.  Its just that all the init log messages I normally spit out during startup were very easily overflowing that buffer.
2023-12-12T23:44:26 < octorian> But I also have no idea how quickly the RTT viewer actually scrapes it.
2023-12-12T23:49:43 < octorian> Makes me kinda tempted to try and figure out a way to temporarily "slow down" RTT logging during specific situations where there's a risk of that.  (at least for targets without enough RAM to use a huge buffer)
2023-12-12T23:49:47 < qyx> PaulFertser: btw what's your situation atm? do you plan staying?
2023-12-12T23:51:18 < PaulFertser> qyx: yes, staying is my plan. Whether I'm able to eventually find a local job I like is unclear though. Free software doesn't seem to be popular here.
2023-12-12T23:52:25 < qyx> and what's your perception of the conflict, could it potentially spread?
2023-12-12T23:52:48 < qyx> it all looks like as a truck full of tnt
2023-12-12T23:54:02 < PaulFertser> qyx: it can spread. Problems within Lebanon and Syria are nothing new. Neither is conflict between Saudi Arabia and Houthis.
2023-12-12T23:54:56 < nomorekaki> #geopolitics32
2023-12-12T23:55:07 < qyx> sorry kaki, just a quick one
--- Day changed ke joulu 13 2023
2023-12-13T00:03:57 < octorian> Okay, I feel like I missed the first half of whatever conversation that was...  even if its off-topic.
2023-12-13T00:05:03 < nomorekaki> qyx: well I need to talk about geopolitics too
2023-12-13T00:06:09  * karlp puts an emoji on his pcb....
2023-12-13T00:06:15 < nomorekaki> problem with talking geopolitics is that we are not pros in geopolitics
2023-12-13T00:08:44 < nomorekaki> so the discourse is rather superficial
2023-12-13T00:13:42 < ventYl> PaulFertser: why are you combining local job and opensource if you probably can go global?
2023-12-13T00:15:32 < PaulFertser> ventYl: I like working with hardware and also I am often better at doing job directly communicating with the team. Remote is not something I enjoy.
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2023-12-13T00:18:19 < ventYl> PaulFertser: used to have the same opinion until I realized that despite commuting into office on daily basis, I've essentially been a remote worker for almost a decade
2023-12-13T00:21:07 < PaulFertser> ventYl: so far I'm working remotely for more than a year on my old job. No idea what's coming next, feeling rather tired. What I am sure about is that many things are easier to figure out going to people and looking into their eyes literally and asking or demanding with confidence.
2023-12-13T00:22:03 < karlp> https://jlcpcb.com/free-components-campaign/?from=fpa 
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2023-12-13T00:28:41 < ventYl> PaulFertser: I didn't have luxury of that possibility, so I managed to progress with what I had and eventually physical presence became useless to me.
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2023-12-13T00:43:41 < qyx> physical presence is great if your colleagues are cool
2023-12-13T00:44:08 < qyx> but sooner or later, you fallback into a defensive mode
2023-12-13T01:07:40 < nomorekaki> I'm testing the test now
2023-12-13T01:08:24 < karlp> ok, paid through the nose for full standard double sided assembly.
2023-12-13T01:08:38 < nomorekaki> create array of errornous cases that should all bounce
2023-12-13T01:08:42 < karlp> can fd and usb keyboard controller for christmas...
2023-12-13T01:09:20 < qyx> for 300e?
2023-12-13T01:09:42 < karlp> well, $158 plus shipping
2023-12-13T01:10:10 < karlp> but options left were: go and redo the layout quite heavily, possibly not anytime soon,
2023-12-13T01:10:50 < nomorekaki> can fd keyboayd?
2023-12-13T01:10:54 < karlp> order stecils and pcbs and parts onyl for ~50+shipping, and have to assemble myself and trust it worked.
2023-12-13T01:11:16 < karlp> or, just pay it now, and if it works ok, know that it could be moved to two layer assembly if I needed realllllly
2023-12-13T01:11:27 < karlp> move to _one_ layer assembly.
2023-12-13T01:12:02 < karlp> so I'm calling it christmas to myself, and sucking it up, for not having checked better and believed people on the kicad discord that "no, double sided assemly doesn't cost anything extra"
2023-12-13T01:12:37 < karlp> nomorekaki: a "keyboard" is a stretch, but yeah, a keyboard controller board, that is doubling as a can-fd node test board.
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2023-12-13T01:13:25 < karlp> so I get maybe one functional keyboard, maybe not, and maybe 4 can-fd nodes, with "5 digital inputs, 3 digital outputs, 1 encoder input"
2023-12-13T01:13:57 < karlp> unhappy with the schematic still, it's gross, but oh well.
2023-12-13T01:14:06 < karlp> crazy idea => into production
2023-12-13T01:14:10 < karlp> calling it a success
2023-12-13T01:17:29 < zyp> karlp, the cheap and easy solution is to let jlcpcb assemble the topside and then populate the bottom yourself
2023-12-13T01:17:51 < zyp> assuming you've only got easy stuff like decoupling on the bottom
2023-12-13T01:19:07 < karlp> yeah, I didn't make that choice
2023-12-13T01:19:10 < karlp> I did consider it.
2023-12-13T01:19:27 < karlp> I had annoying things on both sides, so it's all my own fault
2023-12-13T01:20:16 < karlp> inrelated, or not, ideas, has anyone tried https://www.lcsc.com/customcables ?
2023-12-13T01:23:21 < zyp> no, but I've had good success having cables made elsewhere in china
2023-12-13T01:24:09 < karlp> I've only used dongs.com
2023-12-13T01:25:37 < zyp> exactly
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2023-12-13T01:54:58 < qyx> I am tempted to ask them for some generic microfit cables
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2023-12-13T02:08:17 < upgrdman> anyone know of a web site that compares color printer print quality objectively (not emotionally) ?
2023-12-13T02:08:50 < upgrdman> looking for a color laser printer. hp has a $1000 color laser that will actually do 1200dpi, seems interesting
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2023-12-13T02:15:38 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FF2EUQTpXEAAaivv.jpg
2023-12-13T02:16:57 < upgrdman> Laurenceb_, most people make around $30k/year? shit, TIL im in the 1%
2023-12-13T02:17:06 < Laurenceb_> ikr
2023-12-13T02:19:35 < qyx> I got my color xerox for 110e secondhand
2023-12-13T02:19:48 < qyx> afaik it can do 600 max
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2023-12-13T02:24:47 < nomorekaki> I'm not even on the range of the graph
2023-12-13T02:24:57 < nomorekaki> in both axis
2023-12-13T02:28:25 < qyx> ok I just broke my ethernetz
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2023-12-13T03:19:27 < qyx> I am out of ideas, phy is detected, configured, it advertises 10/100, autonegotiation works, the other side (mikrotik) shows everything is okay
2023-12-13T03:19:52 < qyx> ethernet LED blinks when packet arrives, if I configure the iface manually andping something, it blinks too
2023-12-13T03:20:05 < qyx> except it doesn't work
2023-12-13T03:20:10 < qyx> all counters show 0
2023-12-13T03:20:29 < qyx> so I guess this is probably a problem of linux itself
2023-12-13T03:20:37 < qyx> but how could that even happen
2023-12-13T03:42:21 < qyx> such a grumpy user https://community.nxp.com/t5/i-MX-Processors/iMX6Q-Custom-Board-u-boot-100MBits-Ethernet-not-working/td-p/538934
2023-12-13T03:44:19 < nomorekaki> 0% grumpy
2023-12-13T03:44:45 < nomorekaki> dongs being the reference level grumpy 100%
2023-12-13T04:26:03 < qyx> ok solved, I disabled support for Microchip PHYs, so a "generic PHY" driver is used instead and ethernet works
2023-12-13T04:26:26 < qyx> I just noticed that the generic one doesn't support INT and works in poll mode
2023-12-13T04:26:41 < qyx> which may be the actual cause, I don't have INT from the PHY, so the link never actually comes up
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2023-12-13T11:13:45 < benishor> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mcGhpbWlyg
2023-12-13T12:05:05 < mawk> I crashed the scope
2023-12-13T12:05:20 < mawk> the magnificent rigol
2023-12-13T12:21:21 < mawk> it can't even trigger on the MATH channel 
2023-12-13T12:21:21 < mawk> lame
2023-12-13T12:22:25 < karlp> which one?
2023-12-13T12:22:36 < karlp> we're looking at new DHO10xx stuff for work apparently.
2023-12-13T12:24:03 < karlp> goddamn vschod sucks weirdly.
2023-12-13T12:24:46 < karlp> i've got it into a state where I can ctrl-click on net_init() and it goes to net_init(), but if I ctrl-click on net_status() it ... just doesn't.  
2023-12-13T12:25:06 < karlp> they're both in the same file, included via the same header, in the same local directory.  not library or component code or anything.
2023-12-13T12:25:26 < karlp> I am continually amazed at how much people adore this hunk.
2023-12-13T12:33:10 < jpa-> Steffanx is the only hunk I adore
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2023-12-13T12:50:51 < mawk> and now the scope is showing totally wrong voltages
2023-12-13T12:50:54 < mawk> I don't know what I did
2023-12-13T12:50:57 < mawk> maybe it's broken
2023-12-13T12:51:24 < mawk> my probe is a 10:1, the scope is set to 10:1, but it shows me 10V instead of 15V
2023-12-13T12:51:50 < mawk> karlp: DS1104
2023-12-13T13:01:34 < qyx> I am broken
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2023-12-13T13:02:13 < PaulFertser> mawk: you always have that calibrator output there, check with it.
2023-12-13T13:02:16 < PaulFertser> Should be 5 V.
2023-12-13T13:02:33 < ventYl> karlp: it really sucks in all relevant aspects
2023-12-13T13:10:31 < jpa-> i have had vscode confused with nuttx, but on the other hand i haven't yet had an IDE that wouldn't get confused by it
2023-12-13T13:10:47 < jpa-> every file has different set of include paths and multiple directories have files with same name
2023-12-13T13:11:06 < jpa-> and stuff gets enabled based on a config header that disappears for a while when you rebuild
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2023-12-13T13:54:02 < karlp> ventYl: I'm sad though, eclipse is horrible. netbeans has been neutered by apache, clion I'm considering just asking for work to pay for it, it's all cmake here anyway, so might be fine for me.  but... what else is there?
2023-12-13T13:54:19 < karlp> I can't really see myself using eclipse, though I'm not sure it could be any worse.
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2023-12-13T14:15:51 < mawk> they put a new version of clion karlp 
2023-12-13T14:15:56 < mawk> which supports makefile
2023-12-13T14:15:57 < mawk> I think
2023-12-13T14:16:10 < mawk> clion nova
2023-12-13T14:16:20 < mawk> you can get it in early access preview
2023-12-13T14:32:04 < ventYl> karlp: neovim and then, pretty much nothing
2023-12-13T14:32:17 < ventYl> neovim with all the modern and shiny plugins will be on par with vscode
2023-12-13T14:32:27 < karlp> in otherwods, garbage? :)
2023-12-13T14:33:35 < ventYl> you at least have an option of trading huge amount of your time for quality :>
2023-12-13T14:34:54 < karlp> lol. storing char* + integer "lengths" in some settings shit here,
2023-12-13T14:35:08 < karlp> and the are defaulting to "" and length = sizeof(buffer)
2023-12-13T14:35:10 < karlp> not... 0....
2023-12-13T14:35:14 < karlp> super  helpful.
2023-12-13T14:36:05 < ventYl> isn't sizeof(buffer) going to be evaluated as sizeof(void *) if buffer is of char * type and not char[]?
2023-12-13T14:36:25 < ventYl> so it is not just useless, but even incorrect too?
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2023-12-13T14:37:11 < qyx> oh been there
2023-12-13T14:37:52 < karlp> in this particualr case, the sizeof was sizeof a char blah[128] so it was.. correct... in a way.
2023-12-13T14:39:19 < mawk> jetbrains also made a vscode clone
2023-12-13T14:39:23 < mawk> fleet
2023-12-13T14:39:27 < mawk> in beta
2023-12-13T14:39:38 < mawk> it's fairly nice
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2023-12-13T16:21:47 < karlp> a vscode clone? wat?
2023-12-13T16:21:51 < karlp> why would they do that.
2023-12-13T16:22:35 < karlp> oh dear. they made an editor and run the ide in a background... 
2023-12-13T16:27:02 < ventYl> vscode is an inherently bad way of implementing an IDE
2023-12-13T16:27:13 < ventYl> probably even worse than (neo)vim
2023-12-13T16:28:29 < nomorekaki> TIL evaluate in debug console
2023-12-13T16:28:37 < nomorekaki> in vscode
2023-12-13T16:29:32 < nomorekaki> very nice
2023-12-13T16:29:48 < zyp> I like vscode
2023-12-13T16:30:15 < zyp> but probably mainly because it doesn't get in my way and try to dictate how I should do stuff
2023-12-13T16:32:53 < fenugrec> I've used codeblocks, cmake can generate project files for it. Level of maintained-ness is not legendary though. Some occasional weirdness
2023-12-13T16:33:11 < fenugrec> On the plus side, it's not vscode, it's not eclips, and it's not a 50GB download
2023-12-13T16:33:28 < fenugrec> and it's not emacs
2023-12-13T16:33:34 < nomorekaki> https://paste.debian.net/hidden/aa4228ec/ individual statements are both 1 and != between them is also 1. what I'm missing?
2023-12-13T16:33:36 < fenugrec> so 3 solid arguments
2023-12-13T16:34:36 < zyp> nomorekaki, ?: vs != precedence?
2023-12-13T16:34:50 < zyp> add more brackets
2023-12-13T16:36:00 < zyp> your (blah)?1:0 != (asdf) evaluates to (blah)?:1:(0 != (asdf))
2023-12-13T16:36:01 < fenugrec> also, your construct looks like a xor ?
2023-12-13T16:36:25 < fenugrec> oh not quite, second one is not a comparison
2023-12-13T16:36:47 < nomorekaki> zyp: I see
2023-12-13T16:38:02 < nomorekaki> now I need to check all my code
2023-12-13T16:40:17 < nomorekaki> all good
2023-12-13T17:14:53 < jbo> moin
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2023-12-13T17:18:44 < Steffanx> I often read people say "vscode is shit" (or whatever variation) but hardly ever any proper/real arguments on why its shit.
2023-12-13T17:19:02 < jbo> electron
2023-12-13T17:19:04 < jbo> it's heavy AF
2023-12-13T17:19:08 < jbo> is my reasoning
2023-12-13T17:19:17 < jbo> from what I can tell it works well
2023-12-13T17:19:22 < Steffanx> Except for "it's not keil", which is a proper argument ofcourse 
2023-12-13T17:19:25 < jbo> but I don't feel like running a web server to edit text files
2023-12-13T17:19:26 < nomorekaki> vscode heavy?
2023-12-13T17:19:31 < jbo> electron...
2023-12-13T17:20:18 < jbo> and it requires bash...
2023-12-13T17:20:27 < jbo> probably not that big of a deal in GNU land
2023-12-13T17:20:35 < Steffanx> It requires bash?
2023-12-13T17:20:58 < jbo> I seem to recall that, but don't rely on my info
2023-12-13T17:21:38 < jbo> I think there was  "bug" at one point where it required bash even if you didn't use the bash integration
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2023-12-13T17:45:43 < qyx> re editors, geany here
2023-12-13T17:45:54 < qyx> and micro over ssh
2023-12-13T17:46:11 < jbo> +1 for geany
2023-12-13T17:52:48  * specing uses vim, emacs and GPS
2023-12-13T17:56:33 < qyx> do you use emacs to display maps too?
2023-12-13T17:58:13 < karlp> my complaints with vscode ar ethat click navigation / intellisense is just wildly unreliable, on a good day
2023-12-13T17:59:24 < fenugrec> does geany do auto-complete well ? like enums, defines, func args, doxy blocks etc
2023-12-13T18:00:55 < jbo> for every-day development stuff I just use vim
2023-12-13T18:01:22 < jbo> karlp, I found that code insights in CLion works pretty well (implemented via LLVM)
2023-12-13T18:02:22 < qyx> fenugrec: somewhat
2023-12-13T18:09:19 < specing> qyx: hah, no. But Emacs's org-mode is terribly good
2023-12-13T18:09:28 < jbo> vim > emacs
2023-12-13T18:09:31 < jbo> just saying :p
2023-12-13T18:09:41 < specing> vim has no org-mode, so emacs > vim :)
2023-12-13T18:10:11 < jbo> I recently learned that vim has   :hardcopy > foo.ps
2023-12-13T18:10:51 < specing> In emacs you can C-c C-c in a .tex file and it'll compile it
2023-12-13T18:11:06 < specing> and if you use GUI Emacs, there's an option to load the pdf side by side
2023-12-13T18:11:53 < specing> err no.. hmm .. I was using mupdf to render the pdf
2023-12-13T18:12:02 < jbo> :)
2023-12-13T18:12:07 < qyx> emacs did IAlong before chatgpt
2023-12-13T18:12:18 < specing> mupdf has an option to auto-reload when underlying file changes.. was very useful
2023-12-13T18:13:07 < qyx> soinds like a standard feature, evince too
2023-12-13T18:13:33 < specing> zathura did not have it
2023-12-13T18:14:15 < jbo> zathura absolutely has that feature too.
2023-12-13T18:16:54 < qyx> nomorekaki: don't you have a heating compost pile by any chance?
2023-12-13T18:18:45 < specing> jbo: must have missed it, idk
2023-12-13T18:19:00 < specing> jbo: it was years ago
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2023-12-13T18:32:12 < Steffanx> You don't use the jbo editor, jbo?
2023-12-13T18:35:32 < jbo> Steffanx, I do, but I hate the fact that it's GUI only :p
2023-12-13T18:35:45 < jbo> Steffanx, I mainly want to implement VIM bindings
2023-12-13T18:36:08 < jbo> but that's what I use when I'm on windows 100%
2023-12-13T18:46:20 < karlp> hrm, what's a good protocol for board2board comms over a uart?
2023-12-13T18:46:43 < zyp> in what sense?
2023-12-13T18:46:44 < karlp> hdlc, ppp, both come to mind.
2023-12-13T18:46:51 < zyp> I like COBS
2023-12-13T18:47:12 < zyp> if a framing layer is what you're after
2023-12-13T18:47:16 < karlp> yes, mostly.
2023-12-13T18:47:24 < karlp> there's a hand rolled thing here and it seems very unstable.
2023-12-13T18:47:25 < jbo> +1 for COBS
2023-12-13T18:47:55 < karlp> oops, just tried running the armv7m vecstate macros on xtensa :)
2023-12-13T18:48:51 < jbo> as long as you get paid for it... :p
2023-12-13T19:35:13 < jbo> KiCAD's "Tune track length" tool is such a shit show
2023-12-13T19:37:12 < qyx> I am using \n delimited lines
2023-12-13T19:37:19 < qyx> with base64 payload inside
2023-12-13T19:37:26 < qyx> cbor encoded
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2023-12-13T20:24:09 < qyx> so, re: editors
2023-12-13T20:24:20 < qyx> should I migrate to vscode or eclipse?
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2023-12-13T20:28:52 < jbo> I wouldn't bother if you're happy with your current setup
2023-12-13T20:55:43 < Steffanx> Do you send those messages with pigeon post, qyx?
2023-12-13T20:58:22 < emeb_mac> flappy birbs
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2023-12-13T21:26:32 < antto> did someone say kicad ;P~
2023-12-13T21:41:57 < qyx> Steffanx: a plain lold rs485
2023-12-13T21:44:22 < Steffanx> Whoa emeb_mac is here. Gooday sir!
2023-12-13T21:44:59 < jpa-> if you migrate to vscode, you can complain about it together with karlp; if you migrate to eclipse, we will just say "well what were you expecting?"
2023-12-13T21:45:44 < emeb_mac> Steffanx: Good day to you as well. Nice to see things are still alive here.
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2023-12-13T22:05:48 < Steffanx> I kinda assumed you were joking qyx ... 
2023-12-13T22:05:56 < Steffanx> Now I'm not so sure 
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2023-12-13T23:38:56 < qyx> Steffanx: no I am not, the real reason for it was there was a real possibility of using a webdeveloper to communicate with the thing from *php*
2023-12-13T23:40:09 < qyx> so I was like I am not making more problems, base64 they know, they can add a newline at the end and just write it to /dev/ttyUSB0 with appropriately set permissions
2023-12-13T23:40:34 < qyx> also,if they know json, cbor should make no problem
2023-12-13T23:41:39 < qyx> one year later I was given a response they don't know how to do that
2023-12-13T23:42:48 < qyx> so I made a 50 line python flask service exposing a REST API on localhost, getting a json data, reencoding to cbor/base64 and sending to the uart
2023-12-13T23:43:22 < qyx> waiting up to timeout milliseconds, gettig a line, decoding base64/cbor, reencoding as json and outputtib that
2023-12-13T23:43:33 < qyx> now they are ableto use it
2023-12-13T23:45:12 < qyx> you know, life brings you some weird challenges now and then
--- Day changed to joulu 14 2023
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2023-12-14T01:30:03 < karlp> fenugrec: what's the "right" fork of candlelight to get support a g431 based "canable" board?
2023-12-14T01:30:15 < karlp> https://github.com/makerbase-mks/CANable-MKS has binaries, but I cna't find their sources anywhere.
2023-12-14T01:35:33 < karlp> kinda looks like this one? https://github.com/normaldotcom/candleLight_fw/tree/multitarget
2023-12-14T01:39:42 < karlp> https://github.com/candle-usb/candleLight_fw has the MKS v1 board. but no g4 support. I guess normaldotcom is still downstream then..
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2023-12-14T01:40:28 < Laurenceb_> lolllll
2023-12-14T01:40:29 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.net/drewsparkley/status/1734548787928936909#m
2023-12-14T01:40:35 < Laurenceb_> cool story bro
2023-12-14T01:40:37 < karlp> yeah, that's an encouraging entrance
2023-12-14T01:44:03 < karlp> fenugrec: oh, doh. I saw you were related to the project and might know, not that you were the maintainer ::)
2023-12-14T01:52:50 < fenugrec> karlp heh yea I wanted to merge a few things a few years ago and ended up maintainer... you know how it goes
2023-12-14T01:53:52 < fenugrec> G431 not fully integrated in our master, there is an unmergeable PR and another WIP but we it got a bit held up because it included a lot of changes to get multi-channel and CANFD added
2023-12-14T01:54:41 < fenugrec> I think normaldotcom has diverged a bit to make it work for his board(s) ?, not sure didn't keep track
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2023-12-14T01:55:59 < fenugrec> and everytime I touch usb code on stm32 I get allergic reactions, so that's keeping me from doing much actual work. Trying real hard to be a Real Maintainer and delegate
2023-12-14T02:02:23 < zyp> hah :)
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2023-12-14T04:29:10 < qyx> so nb-iot will be dead when 2G becomes decomissioned? or how should I understand that
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2023-12-14T11:24:07 < karlp> right. I got a mks v2 board, which is g431 based, with fdcan.  I don't _really_ care about the fdcan, but it was an appealing future option.
2023-12-14T11:24:23 < karlp> so I then built my own boards based on g431 as well, and .... oops. not sure what firmware to put on them :)
2023-12-14T11:54:59 < srk> qyx: why not lora(wan)?
2023-12-14T11:56:55 < srk> probably won't be dead, as LTE/4G is mostly FPGAs so they can add it there but why use proprietary net (except for like free coverage)
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2023-12-14T12:11:53 < Laurenceb_> tfw bottom left
2023-12-14T12:11:54 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FGBFPQLWW8AATINj.jpg
2023-12-14T12:13:32 < Laurenceb_> lmao https://nitter.net/bitcloud/status/1734379944288120835#m
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2023-12-14T13:58:15 < qyx> srk: I have read something about nbiot not fitting LTE freq schema channel-wise as it is a single-GSM channel wide, LTE-M fits better
2023-12-14T13:58:41 < qyx> or they can put it in the guard space
2023-12-14T13:59:46 < qyx> and not lorawan because 1. free band 2. maker quality 3. less coverage 4. not zcp/ip
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2023-12-14T14:34:56 < jpa-> do people have a favourite gdb or independent register viewer thing (as long as it works with openocd)?
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2023-12-14T14:47:45 < zyp> set print pretty on
2023-12-14T14:47:54 < zyp> is my favorite
2023-12-14T14:49:18 < jpa-> i like it too, but somehow i seem to run into situations where the symbols i like are not in scope
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2023-12-14T15:35:53 < srk> qyx: lora is by far not maker quality (even when we started with it years ago it was pretty good) and you can buy cheapo mikrotik gws now
2023-12-14T15:38:48 < srk> jpa-: my own :D https://github.com/distrap/hgdb#inspecting-registers
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2023-12-14T15:49:29 < qyx> yes cheapo mikrotik gws with old udp forwarder
2023-12-14T15:49:41 < qyx> they have shortened my life at least by 5 years
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2023-12-14T15:50:19 < qyx> the whole concept is, let's say, not sane
2023-12-14T15:51:01 < qyx> designing a lpwan without multihop routing, central infrastructure hard requirement, etc. nowadays is somewhat suboptimal
2023-12-14T15:51:22 < qyx> 6lowpan over lora would be much better
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2023-12-14T15:56:32 < srk> true!
2023-12-14T15:56:58 < srk> qyx: what was the problem with old udp forwarder? I've had some fun with it as well but it works for years so I don't touch it
2023-12-14T15:57:18 < srk> the reworked version by ttn was badly borken iirc
2023-12-14T15:58:06 < srk> I wonder how hard 6lowpan over lora could be :D not that I do much IoT nowadays
2023-12-14T15:58:30 < srk> except for running a ttn gateway
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2023-12-14T16:06:43 < jpa-> srk: looks cool.. i'm a bit scared by the lambda symbol and it saying "monad"
2023-12-14T16:09:11 < jpa-> i wonder if openocd would somehow permit multiple gdbserver connections
2023-12-14T16:09:23 < jpa-> otherwise i'll have to hack srk's tool to talk to the TCL interface
2023-12-14T16:18:27 < srk> :D I haven't touched the thing for quite some time so it might need fixes (or at least telling it to use forked hgdbmi for it to build without nix)
2023-12-14T16:18:59 < srk> I can possibly add the TCL interface if you give me some pointers
2023-12-14T16:20:13 < PaulFertser> srk: https://review.openocd.org/gitweb?p=openocd.git;a=blob;f=contrib/rpc_examples/ocdrpc.hs;h=6a92366b7ae30bfd43aa0e4d7d719f9873f5bf36;hb=HEAD 
2023-12-14T16:20:37 < srk> hah :D
2023-12-14T16:20:47 < srk> PaulFertser: big!
2023-12-14T16:21:50 < PaulFertser> srk: the RPC interface is meant to be simple to use
2023-12-14T16:21:56 < karlp> lol
2023-12-14T16:24:35 < srk> PaulFertser: cool, that's quite a pointer. I will probably hack a small lib wrapping some commands
2023-12-14T16:25:17 < PaulFertser> srk: great :)
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2023-12-14T17:21:46 < karlp> feck. espressif vendor demos don't ever get link again after cable pull either.
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2023-12-14T17:41:37 < Ecco> Dumb question: is there any chance for sizeof(int) not to be equal to 4 on a STM32?
2023-12-14T17:41:55 < Ecco> (STM32WBA's BLE library ships with some callbacks whose signature use unspecified ints…)
2023-12-14T17:42:04 < Ecco> (so I'm trying to come up with a clean wrapper around them)
2023-12-14T17:42:28 < Ecco> can I assume their lib was compiled with a compiler where int == int32_t ?
2023-12-14T17:42:38 < zyp> probably
2023-12-14T17:43:24 < zyp> I'm not aware of any cortex-m stuff doing unexpected type sizes
2023-12-14T17:43:58 < Ecco> cool. Thanks.
2023-12-14T17:44:11 < Ecco> AFAIK they compile with IAR
2023-12-14T17:47:17 < Ecco> 
2023-12-14T17:47:26 < Ecco> woops, sorry
2023-12-14T18:06:14 < Ecco> I'm digging into ST's library for BLE on WBA. OMG it's really bad
2023-12-14T18:06:25 < Ecco> I haven't even ran the damned thing
2023-12-14T18:06:32 < Ecco> Yet I can tell the design already sucks
2023-12-14T18:06:54 < Ecco> Like, they use "int" for a return code. But wait, sometimes it's "uint8_t" (but it's ok, the underlying values are the same :-/)
2023-12-14T18:07:08 < Ecco> Or they also expect you to implement two callbacks that are in fact the same
2023-12-14T18:07:21 < Ecco> (e.g. ll_sys_enable_irq and LINKLAYER_PLAT_EnableIRQ)
2023-12-14T18:07:41 < Ecco> You're supposed to provide both symbols, even though they do the exact same thing
2023-12-14T18:13:17 < qyx> srk: I decommisioned both ttn and helium
2023-12-14T18:17:48 < karlp> anyone got anuy experience with phys at all?  I get a link up from reset, and I get a link down, but I never get a link _up_ again.  I do get a change in the phy status bits when I plug the cable back in again, I gettwo new bits back again, signal detect and descrambler lock
2023-12-14T18:18:41 < karlp> so it goes from reset, working (signal detect + descrambler lock + link up) -> down (link down, good, no cable) -> ... cable back in, signal detect and descrambler lock, but never get the link up again?
2023-12-14T18:20:59 < qyx> I can only recomment you to have a working irq line once you configured the phy in irq mode
2023-12-14T18:21:09 < qyx> *recommend
2023-12-14T18:28:20 < karlp> lol.
2023-12-14T18:28:24 < karlp> that seems fari.
2023-12-14T18:28:34 < karlp> but no, this is polled, 
2023-12-14T18:43:25 < qyx> which phy is that
2023-12-14T18:44:10 < qyx> also, did you try to toggle reset in runtime?
2023-12-14T18:45:15 < qyx> to find out if the reason is internal to the phy or linux
2023-12-14T18:45:24 < qyx> but you would need to reconfigure it afterwards
2023-12-14T18:49:10 < karlp> yeah, this is from esp-idf...
2023-12-14T18:49:19 < karlp> I'm comparing with linux impl..
2023-12-14T18:49:34 < qyx> so esp-idf no worky?
2023-12-14T18:50:02 < karlp> lol. no.
2023-12-14T18:50:07 < karlp> I just got it working though.
2023-12-14T18:50:11 < karlp> fucking phys.
2023-12-14T18:50:18 < qyx> I guess you are probably the 1% using esp the unusual way
2023-12-14T18:50:22 < qyx> what was wrong?
2023-12-14T18:50:31 < karlp> there's no publically available boards I can find that ever used the dp83848 phy driver they have in their tree.
2023-12-14T18:50:37 < karlp> not historically either
2023-12-14T18:50:55 < karlp> and we're using a dp83822i anyway
2023-12-14T18:51:00 < karlp> which is.... "same"?
2023-12-14T18:51:22 < karlp> but yeah, they never read "BMSR" the basic status register, which has some latching shit
2023-12-14T18:51:26 < karlp> they jsut used the extended one.
2023-12-14T18:51:47 < karlp> so it looks like it had latched down, and as soon as I added a read&print of the BMSR to see what it was saying, it ... works now :)
2023-12-14T18:53:41 < karlp> "If link goes low anytime, this bit value will read 0 on first read after link
2023-12-14T18:53:43 < karlp> down event. Will get cleared to 1 only if status is read second time
2023-12-14T18:53:45 < karlp> after link-up."
2023-12-14T18:57:11 < qyx> so it was only read once and hence kept at 0?
2023-12-14T18:57:26 < qyx> wat it doesn't make sense
2023-12-14T19:01:08  * karlp shrugs, still not sure.
2023-12-14T19:01:31 < karlp> but adding a single read in the "every two seconds poll link state" task, instead of just the phy status extedned register made it work proprely
2023-12-14T19:02:17 < karlp> gonna have to try it more tomorrow unfortuntely out of time
2023-12-14T19:03:23 < karlp> ok, cleaned, verified. will have to write a nice summary for the commit comment
2023-12-14T19:03:32 < karlp> but still chasing internal work on getting this up to espressif anyway...
2023-12-14T19:04:45 < karlp> basically, I made it more like the lan8720 phy driver, which is obviously well tested, and less like the "comaptible" part, that I suspect never got much testing...
2023-12-14T19:06:14 < qyx> I have lan8720 on my imx6
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2023-12-14T19:17:02 < nomorekaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsj2E4jgJRQ musics
2023-12-14T19:22:22 < Steffanx> Not the usual kakimusic
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2023-12-14T21:04:16 < SystemCall> hi. anyone experienced with the low-level intrincacies of armv6/v7m, could tell me, if it is mandatory to keep the MSP stack on a higher address than the PSP stack?
2023-12-14T21:08:11 < SystemCall> does not seem feasible when having multiple stacks for application tasks
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2023-12-14T21:26:48 < fenugrec> hum X1/Y1 safety caps exist in ceramic, I thought it was always film
2023-12-14T21:30:46 < jpa-> SystemCall: no, their order in memory doesn't matter
2023-12-14T21:31:30 < jpa-> (at least until you overflow your stack :)
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2023-12-14T22:02:44 < SystemCall> jpa-, thanks
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2023-12-14T22:43:30 < bitmask> how do you write code?
2023-12-14T22:45:52 < bitmask> so if I have a renderer and then an object that can be drawn. how do I make that work differently depending on which renderer I'm using? is it stupid to have a class for each object that stores the general data and functions, and then a class for each object for each renderer? 
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2023-12-14T23:42:24 < karlp> fenugrec: cute, got alink?
2023-12-14T23:42:33 < karlp> i thought the film properties of self healing were kinda important there.
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2023-12-15T02:22:56 < octorian> So I think I'm going a little overboard in an effort to CMake'ify a project of mine.  Started with a direct conversion of my "suck all the source files into one link operation" approach with a single CMakeLists, and now I'm moving towards actually having a bunch of subdirectory CMakeLists files for "external" code.
2023-12-15T02:23:28 < octorian> Are there any good examples out there that show best practices for setting up something like this?  Kinda just figuring it out as I go along, and its not always clear where to draw boundaries between things.
2023-12-15T02:36:15 < qyx> karlp: do you think it is possible to squeeze some more megabits out of a c-a7 over gigabit usb-ethernet?
2023-12-15T02:36:21 < qyx> or I should not bother at all
2023-12-15T02:38:21 < qyx> hrm it takes 58% of CPU to saturate full 100 mbit using tcp
2023-12-15T02:38:41 < qyx> so I should not bother at all
2023-12-15T02:40:30 < qyx> 58% was for reception, 37% is for transmit
2023-12-15T02:41:39 < octorian> Now that I think I've gotten the hang of CMake'ifying things, getting cross-subdirectory dependencies and includes isn't so weird.  Though the one oddball is anything that requires a "config" include file, which is currently located at the top-level.
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2023-12-15T05:16:20 < fenugrec> karlp no link, just newark or mouser search results for 1n, 250VAC Y1 - they are a lot less expensive ofc. I also wonder about this since IIRC the failure mode of MLCC tends to be 'fail short'
2023-12-15T05:18:33 < fenugrec> octorian I don't know of any 'best practices' repo, everybody does their own thing... subdir in conjunction with git submodules can get weird sometimes when the parent project inherits some stuff that it shouldn't. E.g. subdir enables cppcheck tests for its own stuff, cmake assumes you want to cppcheck all the things
2023-12-15T05:19:52 < fenugrec> in any case, here's one buildsys that shows typical gcc-arm finagling of compile flags, ldscripts, etc https://github.com/candle-usb/candleLight_fw/blob/master/CMakeLists.txt
2023-12-15T05:22:27 < octorian> fenugrec, fortunately I'm not using submodules, and am generally writing all my own build files.  When I pull in external code, I prefer to merge it into its own subdirectory within my project, so I can have a standalone build process and make any necessary tweaks.
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2023-12-15T09:10:53 < martinmoene__> Client: HexChat 2.16.1 • OS: Microsoft Windows 10 Home (x64) • CPU: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4702MQ CPU @ 2.20GHz (2.20GHz) • Memory: 31.9 GiB Total (18.2 GiB Free) • Storage: 1.1 TiB / 1.4 TiB (254.8 GiB Free) • VGA: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 760M, Intel(R) HD Graphics 4600 • Uptime: 3w 4d 13h 44m 7s
2023-12-15T09:14:49 < jpa-> you are not allowed to chat here if your client is not running on STM32
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2023-12-15T11:46:00 < Steffanx> How to let jpa- know he's probably the only one doing that?
2023-12-15T11:46:48 < Steffanx> Not sure his stm32 client supports private messages.
2023-12-15T12:47:55 < karlp> qyx: /me shrugs I've seen various complains about it on allwinner in uboot, but I would hgave thought that all the proper dma stuff was available now in linux proper.
2023-12-15T12:48:26 < karlp> I'd say it depends where you want to spend your time
2023-12-15T12:48:49 < karlp> I'd _believe_ that it's still niche enough globally that there might still be gains, but not sure at what scale you'd be achieving.
2023-12-15T12:59:22 < qyx> sorry now I am reading what I asked and I don't understand it
2023-12-15T13:00:07 < qyx> because at that time I was investigating the possibility to use a usb gigabit ethernet converter chip instead of the on-chip MAC to get gogabit (the internal one is 100mbitň
2023-12-15T13:00:46 < qyx> nah, nevermind
2023-12-15T13:04:04 < karlp> I mean, I suspect it will work better than gadget,
2023-12-15T13:04:12 < karlp> as it's a lot more heavily tested and optimzed path.
2023-12-15T13:04:25 < karlp> like, rpi3? shipped with usb ethernet...
2023-12-15T13:04:37 < karlp> and mountains of usb ethernet dongles are sold and used.
2023-12-15T13:04:58 < karlp> I suspect you _should_ be able to get gadget ethernet to work ~as well, if you are prepared to put th etime into it...
2023-12-15T13:05:01 < qyx> I forgot rpi uses that
2023-12-15T13:08:59 < karlp> downside is you are now tying that usb port to a magjack, via extra parts...
2023-12-15T13:09:09 < karlp> but hey, sw is hard, amirite?
2023-12-15T13:11:00 < qyx> Ill probably order a dongs first
2023-12-15T13:11:21 < srk> maybe irqbalance :D
2023-12-15T13:11:55 < srk> check /proc/interrupts is as well
2023-12-15T13:11:59 < srk> -is
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2023-12-15T13:41:34 < karlp> ok, found the right part of 802.3-2008 section 2 that defines this. perfect.
2023-12-15T13:49:30 < zyp> defines what?
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2023-12-15T14:29:42 < karlp> MDIO status register (1) link status bit, latching low only.
2023-12-15T14:30:10 < karlp> everything would have been fine, but we copied some usptream code that clearly had never really been tested :)
2023-12-15T14:58:54 < mawk> zyp if n⁵ = 133⁵ + 110⁵ + 84⁵ + 27⁵, what is n? no calculator allowed
2023-12-15T14:59:20 < zyp> 12 IIRC
2023-12-15T14:59:30 < zyp> or was it 144
2023-12-15T14:59:37 < mawk> not 12
2023-12-15T14:59:43 < mawk> yes maybe 144
2023-12-15T14:59:44 < zyp> 12^2 then
2023-12-15T14:59:45 < mawk> but why
2023-12-15T15:00:10 < zyp> idk, I remembered it from last time you mentioned it
2023-12-15T15:00:22 < mawk> lol
2023-12-15T15:00:32 < jpa-> meh, some packets transmitted from my STM32 get lost if i connect it to USB network card, or my wifi router; but if I connect through a tp-link switch it works reliably
2023-12-15T15:00:38 < mawk> proof by mawk
2023-12-15T15:01:33 < mawk> fifth powers work well mod 3, 5, 7, 8
2023-12-15T15:01:35 < mawk> mega hint 
2023-12-15T15:01:41 < zyp> jpa-, IFG violation and the devices differ in how strict they are?
2023-12-15T15:02:39 < mawk> a⁵ = a mod 3, a⁵ = a mod 5, a⁵ = a^-1 mod 7, a⁵ = a mod 8
2023-12-15T15:03:03 < zyp> mawk, jpa-'s problem is more interesting than yours
2023-12-15T15:03:14 < mawk> what problem
2023-12-15T15:03:20 < mawk> impossible 
2023-12-15T15:03:25 < mawk> fifth powers are very interesting 
2023-12-15T15:03:59 < mawk> jpa- via Ethernet right?
2023-12-15T15:04:10 < mawk> what are the stats given by "ip link -d -d"
2023-12-15T15:04:53 < karlp> what's IFG? interframe gap?
2023-12-15T15:05:58 < jpa-> zyp: interframe gap config is at default regval 0 = 96 bit times = max for STM32F417
2023-12-15T15:07:47 < zyp> how's autoneg? could it be hdx/fdx mismatch?
2023-12-15T15:07:51 < jpa-> communication between the usb network card and wifi router is reliable in both directions, so i think it has to be something with my device
2023-12-15T15:08:15 < zyp> yeah, the most likely explanation is that the device violates something slightly
2023-12-15T15:11:27 < zyp> guess it could also be a clock frequency violation, and the devices vary in how tolerant they are
2023-12-15T15:17:32 < qyx> should't be ethernet pretty tolerant? 50ppm or so?
2023-12-15T15:17:55 < karlp> bg
2023-12-15T15:18:25 < qyx> does it have packet loss even for eg. ping in 0.1s intervals?
2023-12-15T15:18:39 < qyx> ie. equally spaced packets, no burst transmission
2023-12-15T15:18:47 < qyx> frames, sorry
2023-12-15T15:18:58 < jpa-> phy ref clock measures at 50.00142 MHz so 28 ppm error
2023-12-15T15:20:47 < qyx> ti says ... Ethernet requires a total accuracy of +/- 100 ppm
2023-12-15T15:21:27 < jpa-> looks like behavior is getting worse by the moment, now the PHY is struggling to keep link
2023-12-15T15:28:40 < jpa-> hmm, it's as if PHY RST pin is floating.. but why
2023-12-15T15:34:09 < jpa-> hmm, no, that was probably bad contact with probe
2023-12-15T15:41:40 < jpa-> hmm, it gets worse when i point hot air gun at the crystal
2023-12-15T15:46:29 < jpa-> or maybe that is actually EMI from the hot air gun, it doesn't need to be pointed
2023-12-15T15:46:47 < jpa-> random problems are annoying to debug
2023-12-15T15:48:57 < qyx> cold air gun does that too?
2023-12-15T15:55:32 < qyx> I just got brand new fakras of such low quality that they have loose contact on the shield
2023-12-15T15:55:51 < MGF_Fabio> Hello, What could I check to prevent my FW to hard fault when optimization is set to Os insted of O3?
2023-12-15T15:55:54 < qyx> they are marked as ROKA
2023-12-15T15:56:11 < qyx> MGF_Fabio: remove bugs
2023-12-15T15:56:31 < MGF_Fabio> qyx: in debug mode, it works flawlessly
2023-12-15T15:56:43 < MGF_Fabio> (Og)
2023-12-15T15:59:00 < jpa-> bugs can show up only in specific configurations
2023-12-15T15:59:12 < MGF_Fabio> Maybe some bottlenecks I can't pinpoint
2023-12-15T15:59:37 < MGF_Fabio> The FW is receiving data through serial
2023-12-15T15:59:54 < fenugrec> MGF_Fabio hardfault is often UB in your code... are you muting or ignoring any compiler warnings
2023-12-15T16:00:18 < MGF_Fabio> fenugrec: not that I am aware of
2023-12-15T16:01:03 < qyx> -Wall -Wextras -pedantic -Wocpd?
2023-12-15T16:01:25 < MGF_Fabio> CFLAGS has these: -Wall -Wextra -fdata-sections -ffunction-sections -fshort-enums
2023-12-15T16:01:57 < MGF_Fabio> in debug it adds: -g3 -gdwarf-2
2023-12-15T16:03:16 < fenugrec> cppcheck can statically find some subtle problems too. e.g. overflow an array and corrupt a pointer, then HF when accessing that ptr
2023-12-15T16:03:40 < MGF_Fabio> i'll try cppcheck
2023-12-15T16:03:55 < MGF_Fabio> it's plain C btw
2023-12-15T16:04:32 < fenugrec> I don't remember if the NVIC has any info on hardfault cause... on M0 I vaguely recall you can only (sometimes) get the last PC, nothing more
2023-12-15T16:05:02 < zyp> NVIC doesn't, SCB_CFSR does
2023-12-15T16:05:09 < fenugrec> ah there you go
2023-12-15T16:05:13 < zyp> but not on M0
2023-12-15T16:05:46 < fenugrec> still, last-PC can give you a hint if it's always faulting in the same place
2023-12-15T16:06:01 < MGF_Fabio> I restricted the issue to one function 
2023-12-15T16:06:25 < MGF_Fabio> I'm trying to restrict even more
2023-12-15T16:06:32 < zyp> and I agree, bugs that only shows up in specific optimization modes are almost always due to undefined behavior
2023-12-15T16:07:02 < fenugrec> What is ##stm32's favorite on-board temp sensing method ? bare NTC thermistor or something like TMP235/236, MCP970x ?
2023-12-15T16:07:03 < MGF_Fabio> zyp: like what? I'm a bit new on this sadly
2023-12-15T16:09:23 < zyp> a coworker had a bug recently where some code were doing struct { struct { … uint8_t buf[1] }; uint8_t buf_padding[N - 1]} (the inner struct was a standard type and the outer struct was macro-defined with N being a macro argument
2023-12-15T16:10:25 < zyp> so functions gets a pointer to the inner struct as an argument and can access into the padded buffer without needing to know the macro-parameterized type
2023-12-15T16:11:20 < zyp> except it broke with optimizations, because the compiler saw the array was only a single element long, and optimized away any iterations over it
2023-12-15T16:11:43 < zyp> because accessing past the end of an array is undefined behavior
2023-12-15T16:12:09 < MGF_Fabio> mmmm
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2023-12-15T16:12:23 < zyp> the fix was simply to change the definition to buf[]; to mark it as an array with unknown size
2023-12-15T16:12:47 < MGF_Fabio> I am using a pointer to uint8_t to store serial com rx
2023-12-15T16:13:09 < MGF_Fabio> and also crc calc through hal
2023-12-15T16:13:23 < MGF_Fabio> it could very well be one of those
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2023-12-15T16:16:00 < jpa-> zyp: forcing both ends to 100M half-duplex doesn't fix the problem, so seems like not autonegotiation/duplex mismatch issue
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2023-12-15T16:31:58 < karlp> MGF_Fabio: you should leave -g3 on in both "debug" and "release" modes, because you'r enot developing for desktop, wher ethe .elf is distributed.  there's no downside to -g3
2023-12-15T16:32:14 < karlp> as for dwarf2, do you really have tools that don't understand anythign newer? you should probably just drop that...
2023-12-15T16:32:23 < MGF_Fabio> OK, I'll update the recipe
2023-12-15T16:32:39 < karlp> I'm prettuy sure any tools made this century can speak at least dwarf3, if not 4...
2023-12-15T16:32:49 < MGF_Fabio> It's just the stmcubemx generate makefile
2023-12-15T16:32:51 < karlp> (it won't help with your bugs in any way, just unrelated)
2023-12-15T16:33:10 < MGF_Fabio> I'll update it too
2023-12-15T16:33:22 < karlp> yeah, sucks to be on m0. garbage processors...
2023-12-15T16:33:32 < fenugrec> heh
2023-12-15T16:38:26 < fenugrec> is he on M0 though ?
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2023-12-15T16:41:26 < MGF_Fabio> stm32l072rb
2023-12-15T16:43:08 < Steffanx> So m0+
2023-12-15T16:44:50 < MGF_Fabio> so, it's failing here:
2023-12-15T16:44:53 < MGF_Fabio> if (HAL_UART_Receive(&huart1, &buffer[index], 2, HAL_MAX_DELAY) != HAL_OK) return COM_EXP_COM;
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2023-12-15T16:45:28 < MGF_Fabio> buffer is uint8_t* buffer, index is uint16_t
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2023-12-15T16:48:31 < jpa-> meh, opened up the USB ethernet adapter and measured the crystal: 24.9957 MHz, so -172 ppm
2023-12-15T16:48:43 < fenugrec> add assert(index >= size_of_buffer - 2) just before, run with debugger attached
2023-12-15T16:48:46 < jpa-> i guess my +28 ppm combined with that is just too much
2023-12-15T16:49:44 < MGF_Fabio> fenugrec: I should enable assert I think
2023-12-15T16:49:50 < MGF_Fabio> uncomment on main
2023-12-15T16:49:57 < MGF_Fabio> wait a sec
2023-12-15T16:50:14 < karlp> jpa-: do a zyp style tower of crystal caps to fix it and verify? :)
2023-12-15T16:50:37 < jpa-> yeah, i'll try to fix my own board to 0 ppm and see what happens
2023-12-15T16:51:31 < zyp> jpa-, can you trust the clock measurements?
2023-12-15T16:52:08 < zyp> seems more likely your clock is wrong than the clocks in two of the three off the shelf devices you're testing with
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2023-12-15T16:53:29 < MGF_Fabio> fenugrec: buffer is initialized as: static uint8_t rx_buf[COM_SZE_PKT];
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2023-12-15T16:54:04 < MGF_Fabio> fenugrec: and then before the if is called memset(ota_rx_buf, 0, COM_SZE_PKT);
2023-12-15T16:54:41 < MGF_Fabio> so it should always be COM_SZE_PKT in size
2023-12-15T16:54:57 < MGF_Fabio> let me check on index
2023-12-15T16:56:02 < jpa-> zyp: should be within few ppm, i calibrated my frequency counter against GPS (http://essentialscrap.com/fc500_freqref/)
2023-12-15T16:56:04 < qyx> MGF_Fabio: where is the buffer allocated?
2023-12-15T16:56:35 < jpa-> zyp: but yeah, it does seems suspicious..
2023-12-15T16:57:08 < MGF_Fabio> qyx: in the .c file, global 
2023-12-15T17:01:21 < MGF_Fabio> fenugrec: index value is 2 which is correct
2023-12-15T17:01:53 < qyx> nevermind, it would fail permanently if it was a CCM issue
2023-12-15T17:02:14 < fenugrec> ok, to state the obvious - check "&huart1"
2023-12-15T17:02:41 < MGF_Fabio> before that instruction, serial was sending and receiving data
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2023-12-15T17:03:25 < jpa-> own board now at +1 ppm, link works reliably
2023-12-15T17:03:39 < fenugrec> check the mem map, see what is in RAM just before huart1
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2023-12-15T17:14:26 < jpa-> zyp: hmm.. actually looks like only the USB-Ethernet adapter has a faulty clock, *and* i had a duplex mismatch that explains the problems with my wifi router
2023-12-15T17:15:19 < jpa-> i got more lost packets with the usb adapter so started testing with that only, so i didn't notice that forcing half duplex improved things for the wifi router
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2023-12-15T17:15:44 < MGF_Fabio> it seems like the uart is timing out
2023-12-15T17:16:12 < MGF_Fabio> or, better, is stuck waiting 
2023-12-15T17:16:30 < MGF_Fabio> (when I am debugging with breakpoints)
2023-12-15T17:16:51 < qyx> check the overrun flag
2023-12-15T17:17:12 < qyx> it is set when a character is received but the previous one was not read yet
2023-12-15T17:17:36 < qyx> uart then "locks" and doesn't process any more characters
2023-12-15T17:17:40 < qyx> until you clear that flag
2023-12-15T17:17:46 < MGF_Fabio> if I am not breakpointing, it runs OK
2023-12-15T17:18:32 < qyx> yes that makes sense
2023-12-15T17:19:07 < qyx> but idk if l072 has that, I would say yes
2023-12-15T17:19:13 < qyx> all newer families do
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2023-12-15T17:44:55 < MGF_Fabio> is uart behaving differently between debug and normal mode?
2023-12-15T17:45:31 < fenugrec> that is usually configurable
2023-12-15T17:45:59 < MGF_Fabio> it seems like the uart is loosing same data and then hard fault
2023-12-15T17:47:47 < fenugrec> well can you single-step by instruction (not by line) and find the exact opcode that triggers HF ? it it's always the same, that's easier
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2023-12-15T17:48:57 < MGF_Fabio> if I insert a sleep(2) on my pc app to send data, it doesn't hangs
2023-12-15T17:50:00 < qyx> have you checked the overflow flag?
2023-12-15T17:50:01 < MGF_Fabio> but it is weird: I send data only after the uart has sent a response back, so it shouldn't hang...
2023-12-15T17:50:25 < MGF_Fabio> qyx: i'll tr to check
2023-12-15T17:50:44 < qyx> just dump the config regs when it hangs
2023-12-15T17:50:44 < PaulFertser> Even with hard fault you should be able to see back trace in GDB to figure out why it happened.
2023-12-15T17:51:23 < MGF_Fabio> I find it a bit difficult with vscode
2023-12-15T17:51:29 < MGF_Fabio> I'm trying my best
2023-12-15T17:51:57 < PaulFertser> vscode should be showing the back trace all the same.
2023-12-15T17:52:10 < MGF_Fabio> and also, while debugging, it doesn't hang
2023-12-15T17:52:26 < fenugrec> I've occasionally had issues getting a BT after a HF even in gdb. Sometimes M0 / stlink just didn't want to cooperate
2023-12-15T17:53:07 < MGF_Fabio> it hangs only while not debugging and optimized for size
2023-12-15T17:53:41 < PaulFertser> https://github.com/karlp/zypsnips/blob/master/armv7m-vecstate-zippe.gdb then (for M3/4)
2023-12-15T17:53:59 < PaulFertser> MGF_Fabio: you can attach debugger later when it's already hanging
2023-12-15T17:54:06 < fenugrec> "zippe" heh
2023-12-15T17:57:25 < qyx> karlp: did you ever run in problems with sim presence detection?
2023-12-15T17:57:57 < qyx> I am not entirely sure yet but quacktel has hardwired card CD to the LED_WLAN pin
2023-12-15T18:05:15 < karlp> qyx: I had problems with the uqmi shit in oepnwrt yes, it often gave me weird sim presence errors, and it seems to be just unhandoled weird init sequences.
2023-12-15T18:05:24 < karlp> went away when I went to modemmanager.
2023-12-15T18:06:01 < karlp> vecstate works on m0, it just doesnt' ahve as much information it can give you :|
2023-12-15T18:10:52 < qyx> fuk me right now, sorry
2023-12-15T18:10:53 < qyx> When sim0_ When det is low
2023-12-15T18:10:54 < qyx> power level, the module determines that the SIM card is pulled out, then the SIM card is not read
2023-12-15T18:11:11 < qyx> it has a POSITIVE logic
2023-12-15T18:11:53 < qyx> After SIM card is inserted in the figure, SIM0_DET pin is at high level. When SIM0_DET
2023-12-15T18:11:56 < qyx> pin is at low level, no card is detected.
2023-12-15T18:12:07 < qyx> at least that's how I understand this engrish
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2023-12-15T18:20:29 < qyx> that's ridiculous, the pin is pulled up to 1V8 and it still detecs no sim
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2023-12-15T18:39:14 < qyx> unbelievable, bad soldering
2023-12-15T18:39:16 < qyx> works now
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2023-12-15T19:24:49 < nomorekaki> what kind of latencies there is to expect on pc between the serial port and a program accessing serial?
2023-12-15T19:25:05 < nomorekaki> real serial port
2023-12-15T19:28:34 < qyx> just do a simple echo server and measure with a scope?
2023-12-15T19:28:57 < fenugrec> what OS
2023-12-15T19:29:36 < fenugrec> below 15ms is challenging. Can be <1ms
2023-12-15T19:29:50 < qyx> whayreally?
2023-12-15T19:30:10 < qyx> I expected well below the symbol time
2023-12-15T19:30:20 < fenugrec> yea I have some code to test that with a half-duplex (or just RX-TX connected) cable
2023-12-15T19:30:35 < fenugrec> you have so much buffering : USB-serial dongle, USB stack, kernel, task switching
2023-12-15T19:31:07 < qyx> oh but wait, thats the other way around
2023-12-15T19:31:22 < qyx> with a loopback you will always get atleast one character delay
2023-12-15T19:31:37 < fenugrec> it gives a total for TX + RX delay
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2023-12-15T19:32:15 < fenugrec> gives an order of magnitude. And trying to predict, improve or depend on that, with a desktop OS, is not sane
2023-12-15T19:33:01 < qyx> if you use a character generatoe (eg. some other device) and do a echo server and then  easure time between rx stop and tx start, you ideally get zero of the software reacts instantly
2023-12-15T19:33:23 < qyx> *if
2023-12-15T19:33:37 < fenugrec> you mean your software pools on its RX, and echoes the char right back ?
2023-12-15T19:33:47 < qyx> yes
2023-12-15T19:33:48 < fenugrec> yeah very much non-zero, for the reasons above
2023-12-15T19:34:24 < fenugrec> USB transaction will probably happen on the next SOF, e.g. granularity of 1ms right there, and then you ope the rest of your massive OS stack and driver config cooperates
2023-12-15T19:35:20 < fenugrec> I wish I could convey how extremely non-realtime a desktop OS (win / linux without RT) can be. 
2023-12-15T19:35:37 < fenugrec> CPU scales frequency back ? Boom, 15 ms. Unplanned task switch ? Boom, 16ms.
2023-12-15T20:01:14 < zyp> USB bulk doesn't wait for the next SOF, USB spends all the idle time polling for pending bulk transfers
2023-12-15T20:02:09 < zyp> non-realtime OS doesn't mean it can't reply fast, it just it's not guaranteed to reply fast
2023-12-15T20:02:20 < MGF_Fabio> FOUND IT!
2023-12-15T20:02:45 < MGF_Fabio> it was the static buffer[] declared as global 
2023-12-15T20:03:16 < MGF_Fabio> put it inside the only function that uses it and now no more HF
2023-12-15T20:03:24 < MGF_Fabio> thanks for the help!
2023-12-15T20:06:51 < PaulFertser> That's not a solution MGF_Fabio 
2023-12-15T20:07:01 < PaulFertser> You just hid the problem from yourself.
2023-12-15T20:07:33 < MGF_Fabio> why is that?
2023-12-15T20:08:01 < fenugrec> zyp I know it CAN be fast, but I also know very well that you can't rely on it being that way, which was my main point
2023-12-15T20:09:14 < fenugrec> as for bulker transfer on SOF, I would argue that depends on what the host controller feels like doing ? 
2023-12-15T20:09:23 < PaulFertser> MGF_Fabio: you had an easily reproducible issue, now the issue is not showing up but will likely hit you at another moment, probably when you're least read for it. You didn't find the reason the was a problem did you?
2023-12-15T20:11:19 < fenugrec> i.e. if your pl230x, ftdi, CH34x whatever is NAKing the bulk transfer, the host isn't obligated to spam the bulk transfer continuously
2023-12-15T20:12:35 < fenugrec> IIRC the USB spec is vague on this, on purpose
2023-12-15T20:12:38 < fenugrec> damn I hate USB.
2023-12-15T20:13:41 < MGF_Fabio> PaulFertser: with the possibility I have at the moment, I concluded that using a static array would mess with the compiler optimization for size. Using a non static array local to the only function that uses it not only makes more sense, but it somehow (I admit I don't have the knowledge) doesn't mess with the compiler
2023-12-15T20:15:24 < PaulFertser> MGF_Fabio: if you mean you suspect a compiler bug I'd say that's rather unlikely.
2023-12-15T20:15:32 < MGF_Fabio> no
2023-12-15T20:16:45 < MGF_Fabio> I suspect that declaring it "static buffer[100];" as global was not the correct way to do this
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2023-12-15T20:19:38 < fenugrec> have you disassembled with/without optimization to compare ? sometimes reveals interesting differences
2023-12-15T20:19:46 < PaulFertser> MGF_Fabio: what you cite doesn't look like something that leads to "undefined behaviour" according to the standard.
2023-12-15T20:20:42 < PaulFertser> MGF_Fabio: regardless of what's better from the maintainability / code quality point of view, you should be glad you have a hard fault that's easily reproducible and you should rather find the real reason behind it.
2023-12-15T20:20:43 < MGF_Fabio> fenugrec: I am not that competent yet in this regard
2023-12-15T20:21:21 < fenugrec> ^ +1, a reproducible HF is a blessing in disguise
2023-12-15T20:21:25 < PaulFertser> It's probably a bad pointer in some other unrelated part of your firmware, and it might bite you later.
2023-12-15T20:22:31 < MGF_Fabio> PaulFertser: So how come that it only happen during Os optimization and not any other way?
2023-12-15T20:22:59 < MGF_Fabio> I sadly lost all day on this and couldn't find anything :(
2023-12-15T20:23:19 < MGF_Fabio> I agree that a HF is useful 
2023-12-15T20:23:29 < fenugrec> well did you inspect the state at the hardfault ? find the opcode and what it's doing
2023-12-15T20:23:55 < MGF_Fabio> I couldn't do that
2023-12-15T20:25:23 < MGF_Fabio> (Not that competent with OpenOCD, GDB etc)
2023-12-15T20:25:28 < fenugrec> with -Os etc. the compiler exploits more corners of C (UB/ implementation-defined territory), so when that breaks your code, it's almost guaranteed to be a bug on your side
2023-12-15T20:26:00 < fenugrec> even linking your files in a different order could've "fixed" (read: hidden) the bug, but it's still there
2023-12-15T20:26:06 < MGF_Fabio> fenugrec: It surely is a bug on my side, I'm not questioning it
2023-12-15T20:26:22 < PaulFertser> And that's the reason I would suggest to _always_ compile your code with maximum optimisation you ever might need to use, right from the start while you're still adding features.
2023-12-15T20:26:38 < fenugrec> well I agree with Paul that with the little information we have, your 'fix' is no fix
2023-12-15T20:26:41 < PaulFertser> MGF_Fabio: do you get no backtrace at all?
2023-12-15T20:27:12 < MGF_Fabio> PaulFertser: while using the debugger I couldn0t reproduce it
2023-12-15T20:27:44 < PaulFertser> MGF_Fabio: HF handler usually just has an infinite loop. Make it hang and connect after that to inspect the state.
2023-12-15T20:29:03 < MGF_Fabio> I'll try to do that, but I need to learn how to use the tools better I suspect
2023-12-15T20:29:35 < MGF_Fabio> Also, you can connect even if it's not a debug build?
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2023-12-15T20:33:11 < fenugrec> yes ofc
2023-12-15T20:34:49 < MGF_Fabio> I need to better learn to use openocd and gdb
2023-12-15T20:35:03 < PaulFertser> All the debug information is in the ELF and doesn't get flashed to target anyway.
2023-12-15T20:36:08 < MGF_Fabio> I see
2023-12-15T20:46:09 < nomorekaki> fenugrec: yeah <15ms challenging and <1ms possible is all I need to know
2023-12-15T20:51:49 < nomorekaki> thanks
2023-12-15T20:55:01 < fenugrec> yw
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2023-12-15T21:21:39 < Ecco> holy cow
2023-12-15T21:21:43 < Ecco> so the people at ST
2023-12-15T21:21:52 < Ecco> are force-pushing commits on their public GitHub repositories
2023-12-15T21:22:06 < Ecco> happily re-writing history
2023-12-15T21:22:08 < Ecco> damn
2023-12-15T21:22:58 < jpa-> apparently using the PHY autonegotiation settings from a random example with different PHY wasn't such a great idea; I wonder why most of the PHY register appear to be standardized but the autonegotiation result varies
2023-12-15T21:23:39 < jpa-> or maybe the nuttx example is just weird for reading it from register 30 instead of register 5
2023-12-15T21:28:26 < qyx> Ecco: master branches? or some random feature/review branches?
2023-12-15T21:35:21 < nomorekaki> what function name I should use for uart printing in my library?
2023-12-15T21:35:28 < nomorekaki> putc()?
2023-12-15T21:36:45 < zyp> puke()
2023-12-15T21:37:36 < nomorekaki> yes
2023-12-15T21:37:47 < nomorekaki> pukec()
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2023-12-15T21:44:35 < Ecco> qyx: main branch
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2023-12-15T21:52:34 < qyx> that's sad
2023-12-15T22:00:48 < PaulFertser> What project?
2023-12-15T22:07:26 < fenugrec> Ecco which repos ? they didn't seem to know how to git last time I checked
2023-12-15T22:07:44 < fenugrec> they'd just push a massive changeset "release 1.11.1 haha goodluck with the changelog"
2023-12-15T22:14:13 -!- qyx [~qyx@84.245.120.121] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
2023-12-15T22:15:56 < Ecco> https://github.com/STMicroelectronics/STM32CubeWBA
2023-12-15T22:15:58 < Ecco> This one
2023-12-15T22:16:00 < Ecco> last commit says:
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2023-12-15T22:16:16 < Ecco> https://github.com/STMicroelectronics/STM32CubeWBA/commit/d2bde9968677fdfd302e2b595239721e3c178e88
2023-12-15T22:16:20 < Ecco> *but*
2023-12-15T22:17:15 < Ecco> They also had https://github.com/STMicroelectronics/STM32CubeWBA/commit/b489561c
2023-12-15T22:18:04 < Ecco> (notice how they have the same commit message and same parent commit)
2023-12-15T22:21:42 < fenugrec> lol
2023-12-15T22:23:40 < karlp> just be thankful you get even a public git with updates...
2023-12-15T22:23:46 < karlp> baby steps...
2023-12-15T22:25:42 < karlp> oh, mgf fabio left, I was trying to tell him earlier there is no bullshit "debug" vs "release" buidls for embedded but I guess I wasn't clear enough
2023-12-15T22:25:49 < karlp> just had the same thing at work.
2023-12-15T22:26:05 < karlp> "release" builds with the same O flags, but no -g....
2023-12-15T22:27:50 < PaulFertser> Is there much reason to have "release" builds with non-embedded software these days? You just "strip" on "make install" and that's it, why not build with -g3 all the time?
2023-12-15T22:28:28 < PaulFertser> And in fact it _is_ built that way with debug info by major distros, with debug symbols split into separate packages.
2023-12-15T22:30:45 < Steffanx> There's closed sores where they don't want you to "make install" .. 
2023-12-15T22:31:45 < veverak> PaulFertser: wtf
2023-12-15T22:31:59 < veverak> or, wait
2023-12-15T22:32:05 < veverak> you meant -O3 or -g3?
2023-12-15T22:32:47 < veverak> I mean, you can remove on make install, or make pkg, but why not just do not compile it in anyway?
2023-12-15T22:33:08 < veverak> the compilation for this is done in CI anyway, from 0 without cache, so not specifying debug symbols is perfectly legit
2023-12-15T22:33:10 < PaulFertser> veverak: I mean -g3
2023-12-15T22:33:46 < PaulFertser> veverak: what's the benefit on not adding debug symbols during compilation?
2023-12-15T22:33:51 < karlp> PaulFertser: well, yes, kicad for isntance with g3 is a ~2GB .elf ...
2023-12-15T22:34:11 < karlp> and the disk space it takes even just writing it all makes a release build actually quicker.
2023-12-15T22:34:40 < karlp> but I agree, it's massssssively less useful, and just a stupid carryover from cmake and visual studio these defaults.
2023-12-15T22:35:03 < veverak> PaulFertser: but why would you add them for the final compilation?
2023-12-15T22:35:16 < karlp> the way distros are doing debug info separate is far more work to setup.
2023-12-15T22:35:31 < veverak> yeah, that's different thing
2023-12-15T22:35:48 < veverak> we just have internal product that is build in `Release` in CI for deployment
2023-12-15T22:35:51 < veverak> and `Debug` locally
2023-12-15T22:36:07 < veverak> (at this p[oint stripping symbols during isntall step would be more work, as somebody would have to do it)
2023-12-15T22:43:03 < PaulFertser> veverak: deployment is supposed to be done by building a .dpkg file or something the regular way. And of course you want debug symbols from the deployed binary to be reliably saved somewhere so that you could debug from core dumps collected by end users.
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2023-12-16T01:27:52 < karlp> what do people reallllly do with things like ch568: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006112665727.html  a MCU with 4 SD controllers?! (and a sata phy?)  even with a usb2-hs phy, ... just... wat?
2023-12-16T01:37:34 < qyx> I would have use for that
2023-12-16T01:37:42 < karlp> for what?
2023-12-16T01:37:51 < qyx> a syorage card for a datalogger :p
2023-12-16T01:38:00 < karlp> Ive seen these gimmick "raid" sd card shits but really?!
2023-12-16T01:38:06 < qyx> storage
2023-12-16T01:38:07 < karlp> thats... a viable plan?
2023-12-16T01:38:21 < karlp> what firmware are you putting on it?
2023-12-16T01:38:41 < karlp> how is this better than a usb hub and a regular card reader?
2023-12-16T01:38:46 < karlp> what would you gain here?
2023-12-16T01:38:57 < qyx> if you want low power and high density, usd is sadly the only viable option
2023-12-16T01:39:19 < qyx> usb is only for downloading to the computer
2023-12-16T01:39:27 < qyx> whe you pull the thing out
2023-12-16T01:40:15 < qyx> but sdio can be used in a multidrop topology
2023-12-16T01:40:27 < qyx> although I haven't seen anyone doing that
2023-12-16T01:40:39 < qyx> and no driver was supporting it
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2023-12-16T01:51:15 < fenugrec> raid SD card sounds like an excellent idea with absolutely no drawbacks
2023-12-16T01:57:11 < fenugrec> but that is by far not the strangest product on aliE
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2023-12-16T02:20:03 < qyx> I decided to go the linux route and have multiplexed pairs of emmc/uSD
2023-12-16T02:21:10 < qyx> the sole purpose is to save blocks of data of up to about 64K, so I may as well just use vfat, find first pair with any free space on boot and just append to directories by date
2023-12-16T02:21:48 < qyx> the MCU i plementation would be probably raw, without a filesystem
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2023-12-16T12:14:52 < srk> timely.. looks like blackmagic is badly borken with recent gdbs
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2023-12-16T20:57:34 < bitmask> only 1411 warnings.... at least i got rids of all ze errors
2023-12-16T21:55:01 < qyx> just take one a minute
2023-12-16T21:55:10 < qyx> tomorrow you are done
2023-12-16T21:56:51 < bitmask> heh
2023-12-16T21:57:35 < bitmask> luckily most of them are from a  couple of external libraries so I can just add warning suppression to those
2023-12-16T21:58:43 < bitmask> ok well im about to run my game engine for the first time in like a year with changes to how its set up. if I leave the channel its because my laptop crashed
2023-12-16T22:04:41 < Steffanx> Bye 👋🏻
2023-12-16T22:06:30 < bitmask> hmm, does VMA work with moltenvk
2023-12-16T22:09:23 < bitmask> ok yes it should
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--- Day changed su joulu 17 2023
2023-12-17T00:41:17 < Ecco> WHat do you guys think of this power supply? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBv-Tyr8y8k
2023-12-17T00:41:20 < Ecco> It looks pretty cool :)
2023-12-17T00:43:24 < zyp> looks like a miniware clone
2023-12-17T00:45:13 < zyp> also fuck usb a-a cable
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2023-12-17T01:01:32 < Ecco> Ha, didn't know of those Miniware psus. They look pretty cool - albeit more expensive
2023-12-17T01:09:44 < zyp> yeah
2023-12-17T01:10:18 < zyp> I'm almost kinda tempted to pick up one for travel use or something
2023-12-17T01:10:32 < zyp> otherwise I don't see much point
2023-12-17T01:11:23 < zyp> one disadvantage is that they're not galvanically isolated, so if you want to avoid ground loops, you have to have a dedicated AC/DC converter for it
2023-12-17T01:11:50 < zyp> in which case it's generally more convenient to just have one with built-in AC/DC converter
2023-12-17T01:12:30 < zyp> I love my RD6024, and if I wanted something smaller RK6006 is cute
2023-12-17T01:13:23 < zyp> but I prefer having the keypad
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2023-12-17T07:57:04 < ColdKeyboard> If I have a macro for Logger_INFO(...) and when I compile in release mode, I "stub" that part out by defining it as nothing ("#define Logger_INFO(...) ").
2023-12-17T07:57:18 < ColdKeyboard> Would that cause issues in places where I only have logger statements?
2023-12-17T07:57:42 < ColdKeyboard> For example if it's at ... "else { Logger_INFO("some msg"); }
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2023-12-17T08:39:34 < ColdKeyboard> Reason why I'm asking is that my firmware works fine in debug mode and then hangs in release mode... :\
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2023-12-17T10:16:20 < qyx> I don't understand what are you all doing with release/debug, but whatever
2023-12-17T10:16:25 < qyx> yes, timing issues
2023-12-17T10:16:29 < qyx> most probably
2023-12-17T10:16:38 < qyx> or other much worse things
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2023-12-17T16:44:18 < qyx> so, debug pros
2023-12-17T16:45:06 < qyx> any good hints to debug the emergency/critical level (eg. a hardfault, task starvation, etc.) remotely with in-band communication?
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2023-12-17T16:46:29 < qyx> I mean something like core/memory dumps, saving them in flash + reset, or at least saving backtrace (how to parse it afterwards with gdb?), etc.
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2023-12-17T17:15:20 < srk> qyx: https://web.archive.org/web/20230201224907/https://smoothieware.org/mri-debugging
2023-12-17T17:15:41 < srk> (current one returns forbidden for some reason)
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2023-12-17T17:46:17 < Steffanx> smoothieboard project is dead or is the website just down?
2023-12-17T17:47:32 < jpa-> probably just website
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2023-12-17T17:55:12 < qyx> srk: I mean inband, that is, over eg. CAN fully remotely
2023-12-17T17:55:49 < srk> same but over CAN? :)
2023-12-17T18:04:30 < qyx> no, everything should be done without external intervention, preferably saved to flash (on a debug partition), along with a log dump, etc
2023-12-17T18:04:39 < qyx> then the devixe is reset as usual
2023-12-17T18:05:30 < qyx> which allows to remotely connect to it (that is over CAN, cellular, etc) and download the stuff
2023-12-17T18:05:30 < srk> ah, ok. well the minidump is a good hint still
2023-12-17T18:06:05 < qyx> then load into gdb for offline examination
2023-12-17T18:08:59 < qyx> hm yeah I need to innovate a way to get all those info in the hardfault handler
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2023-12-17T18:15:09 < zyp> qyx, as long as this is not M0, I'd enable the configurable fault handlers so that they get invoked before hardfault does
2023-12-17T18:16:09 < jpa-> if you have memory to store, dumping all RAM and registers is a reasonable way
2023-12-17T18:16:20 < zyp> you can have separate handlers for men/bus/usage faults
2023-12-17T18:16:30 < zyp> normally they're all disabled and thus gets promoted to hardfault
2023-12-17T18:17:36 < zyp> that way, if one of your fault handlers faults while preparing/storing a crashdump, it goes into hardfault and not lockup, so you've got another level of graceful handling
2023-12-17T18:17:48 < jpa-> https://github.com/PetteriAimonen/QuadPawn/blob/master/Runtime/debug.c  https://github.com/PetteriAimonen/QuadPawn/blob/master/Runtime/gdb_debug_memory_dump.txt    this worked for me, though if i had been less lazy i'd have restored all registers :)
2023-12-17T18:18:00 < qyx> the thing is I have some races which are quite rare and occueing only in field
2023-12-17T18:18:39 < qyx> and I am not able to get there locally to obtain dumps
2023-12-17T18:19:12 < zyp> yeah, so what you want to do is take a snapshot of the system state and store it somewhere
2023-12-17T18:19:17 < qyx> jpa-: oh i'll look into it thanks
2023-12-17T18:21:20 < jpa-> https://github.com/ZuluSCSI/ZuluSCSI-firmware/blob/main/lib/ZuluSCSI_platform_GD32F205/ZuluSCSI_platform.cpp#L574   https://github.com/ZuluSCSI/ZuluSCSI-firmware/blob/main/utils/analyze_crashlog.sh      here is another that just dumps registers and stack, and then a script with addr2line to get it to addresses; obviously less info there than a whole memory dump would have, but a lot of time it is enough
2023-12-17T19:08:00 < qyx> but the question still is when to save the dump
2023-12-17T19:08:28 < qyx> because after a critical fault drivers and/or peripherals may be in a corrupted state and not able to save the dump
2023-12-17T19:08:39 < qyx> or able, but not safe to save
2023-12-17T19:10:08 < qyx> so I am thinking of sacrificing some SRAM, save the regs there, set a flag and reset to a handler to obtain a clear state
2023-12-17T19:10:37 < qyx> and do the full dump there + write the saved state to the flash
2023-12-17T19:11:06 < jpa-> or just reinitialize whatever drivers you need for saving the dump
2023-12-17T19:11:33 < jpa-> but yeah, on another project i use uninitialized section of ram to store crash info, because it has no storage; the host can then retrieve it after reset
2023-12-17T19:17:58 < qyx> wat https://github.com/PetteriAimonen/QuadPawn/blob/master/Runtime/debug.c#L36
2023-12-17T19:18:56 < jpa-> qyx: lazy traceback for displaying on the screen
2023-12-17T19:26:02 < qyx> yeah but isn't it too lazy?
2023-12-17T19:26:06 < qyx> I mean, does it work?
2023-12-17T19:28:24 < jpa-> well, it prints addresses to code locations
2023-12-17T19:28:36 < jpa-> sometimes a few function calls might be in wrong order, but that's not so critical
2023-12-17T20:03:35 < zyp> jpa-, did some more testing on the robot today, think I managed to trip an overcurrent protection in the servo amp, had to powercycle it to reset
2023-12-17T20:04:09 < zyp> was still just testing PWM control without current feedback, to ensure I've got the feedback ADCs right before I attempt DTC
2023-12-17T20:04:28 < zyp> knowing that it has protection is nice
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2023-12-17T20:09:21 < zyp> jpa-, I also came across this stuff recently: https://github.com/chmousset/hmmc/blob/master/hmmc/regulator/hyst.py#L238
2023-12-17T20:09:44 < zyp> seems like a reasonable approach to do DTC and limit switching frequency
2023-12-17T20:10:37 < nomorekaki> irc has anonymous mode :o
2023-12-17T20:11:11 < jpa-> zyp: kinda, though it seems you could calculate the hysteresis parameter statically if you know the motor inductance and supply voltage
2023-12-17T20:11:44 < jpa-> i guess having it automatically adjust can be nice
2023-12-17T20:12:02 < zyp> hmm, or determine it experimentally, I guess
2023-12-17T20:12:16 < jpa-> after all one of the benefits of DTC is that it needs less parameter tuning than FOC.. so runtime auto adjustment is nice
2023-12-17T20:13:31 < jpa-> it's kind of the same problem as with SMPS regulators; some have constant frequency, some constant Ton, some have fancier adjustment schemes
2023-12-17T20:14:14 < zyp> indeed
2023-12-17T20:14:39 < zyp> the more I get into this, the more everything kinda starts looking like the same
2023-12-17T20:16:31 < zyp> I plugged a space navigator into hal_input today, and used one of the axes to wave around J5 on the robot arm
2023-12-17T20:17:02 < zyp> was wondering how fast I could get it to go so I upped the gain a bit, and that's when I tripped the servo amp :p
2023-12-17T20:17:52 < zyp> but it's not doing proper FOC or DTC, so it's limited by the current angle being wrong
2023-12-17T20:18:04 < zyp> looking forward to see how it'll perform with DTC hooked up
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2023-12-17T20:18:48 < jpa-> back when i was messing with the thermo-crs robot arm that hacklab got as a donation, i somehow got it into some encoder offset state and it suddenly slammed into hard stop
2023-12-17T20:19:00 < jpa-> fortunately no squishy parts were in the way :)
2023-12-17T20:19:50 < jpa-> regarding space mouse, have you ever tried it for PCB design? does it make any sense there?
2023-12-17T20:19:55 < zyp> how much filtering and stuff should I expect to need in the speed and position loops?
2023-12-17T20:20:15 < zyp> no, I haven't I've barely tried using it in fusion 360 and couldn't really get used to it
2023-12-17T20:21:41 < jpa-> if you have 1kHz loop and set up the feedforward parameters reasonably close, i think the PID part should be quite loose on requirements
2023-12-17T20:21:54 < zyp> I figure I'll prototype the speed/position loops in linuxcnc, but eventually I'd like to move those also into the FPGA
2023-12-17T20:22:43 < jpa-> because you have separate encoders and not relying on backemf sensing, the signals should be pretty clean
2023-12-17T20:22:48 < zyp> in the FPGA, I'd probably tie them to the encoder update rate, which is 8kHz or so
2023-12-17T20:23:12 < zyp> yeah
2023-12-17T20:23:33 < jpa-> main problem is probably low-load with arm upwards, vs. high load with arm horizontal; the state will be so different that it may be difficult to meet both cases with same PID parameters
2023-12-17T20:51:48 < zyp> how so?
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--- Day changed ma joulu 18 2023
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2023-12-18T00:45:30 < zyp> jpa-, so I figured I'd test with static hysteresis and went over to the workshop to test, but I forgot to hook up the hysteresis signal to a HAL pin so I had no way of actually setting it
2023-12-18T00:45:42 < zyp> and with zero hysteresis it's screaming
2023-12-18T00:45:54 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/Vcfo3.mp4
2023-12-18T00:46:03 < zyp> but it moves :D
2023-12-18T01:25:20 < nomorekaki> moneyed 3dconnexion
2023-12-18T01:26:45 < zyp> I picked it up used for cheap a long time ago
2023-12-18T01:46:24 < qyx> zyp: can you imagine those handlers being implemented in the bootloader?
2023-12-18T01:47:06 < zyp> crashdump handling?
2023-12-18T01:47:21 < qyx> yeah
2023-12-18T01:48:01 < qyx> mem/bus/usage/watchdog
2023-12-18T01:48:13 < zyp> the issue with crashdump handling isn't really where you've got the code, it's where you put its state
2023-12-18T01:48:44 < zyp> because you can't just go trash over all the memory you want to be dumping
2023-12-18T01:49:13 < qyx> of course, but conceptually
2023-12-18T01:50:28 < zyp> conceptually you could put it in the bootloader, yes, but if it requires anything in .bss or .data you need to keep that from overlapping with application state
2023-12-18T01:50:59 < qyx> and the stack too
2023-12-18T01:52:06 < qyx> it would be beneficial to reserve some part of memory for crap
2023-12-18T01:52:25 < qyx> to contain thins rarely needed in the core dump
2023-12-18T01:53:03 < qyx> idk. some memory reserved for crypto stuff which would not be dumped anyway
2023-12-18T01:53:21 < qyx> or dma buffer memory
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2023-12-18T02:03:02 < qyx> no that idea is plain wrong
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2023-12-18T02:11:07 < qyx> a better one may be to just block the current thread in the handler and yield() to the crash dumper task
2023-12-18T02:11:44 < qyx> with the highest priority
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2023-12-18T02:11:56 < qyx> registers would be saved in the task control block
2023-12-18T02:12:15 < qyx> stack pointer too
2023-12-18T02:12:49 < qyx> and the memory would not get corrupted as the stack would be switched to the one owned by the crash dumper
2023-12-18T02:13:13 < qyx> which has not been touched yet and can be made dirty
2023-12-18T02:16:48 < zyp> the problem isn't really task state, the problem is state of whatever you need to write the dump to storage, e.g. sdcard driver or whatever
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2023-12-18T02:19:38 < qyx> I have all api/driver calls do e on the caller stack
2023-12-18T02:20:07 < qyx> so the remaining thing to be concerned about is the driver state itself
2023-12-18T02:21:17 < qyx> I can just assu e the filesystem and storage driver is okay...
2023-12-18T02:23:20 < qyx> I would need to clone the driver memory somewhere in the crash dumper scrap space
2023-12-18T02:24:05 < qyx> or implement its own driver which sounds insane
2023-12-18T02:29:10 < qyx> hm injecting info about memory regions needed to save the dump during crash dumper init could be a feasible approach
2023-12-18T02:30:25 < qyx> it then allocates a known region of memory of the same size to use as a mirror of the concerned regions
2023-12-18T02:38:31 < qyx> https://docs.memfault.com/docs/mcu/coredumps/
2023-12-18T02:38:44 < qyx> [[maybe_interesting]]
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2023-12-18T03:08:31 < Ecco> I'm looking for a way to hook up my TV to some large-ish speakers I bought
2023-12-18T03:09:15 < Ecco> I really only need TOSLINK in (and maybe bluetooth) and then a couple output for the speakers
2023-12-18T03:09:21 < Ecco> I don't really know what to get
2023-12-18T03:23:48 < nomorekaki30> an amplifier
2023-12-18T03:23:58 -!- nomorekaki30 is now known as nomorekaki
2023-12-18T03:26:12 < nomorekaki> modern amplifier has hdmi and gets control inputs from tv
2023-12-18T03:26:21 < nomorekaki> and audio via hdmi ofc
2023-12-18T03:27:03 < nomorekaki> if that sounds like what you want
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2023-12-18T03:27:41 < nomorekaki> turns on off etc. automatically and tv vol adjusts master in amp
2023-12-18T03:29:52 < nomorekaki> I think there are some simple small ones that have like wifi / bluetooth / hmdi
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2023-12-18T18:29:40 < karlp> meh, löve2d app doesn't run on virtual windows...
2023-12-18T18:43:53 < jpa-> starting a game studio now?
2023-12-18T18:53:24 < karlp> no, someone here wrote a simulator for the UI on these things in love2d.
2023-12-18T18:53:40 < karlp> works quite well. but now I'm meant to be handing some demos to people to play with it on windows...
2023-12-18T18:53:52 < fenugrec> anybody using speech recognition for programming ? I keep meaning to try but the setup+configuration+learning curve is discouraging
2023-12-18T18:58:47 < specing> karlp: why not supply them with virtual linux :)
2023-12-18T18:59:28 < karlp> this was sufficient for my own VM, and it already works on real windows, I just had to go borrow someone to test 
2023-12-18T18:59:30 < karlp> https://askubuntu.com/a/1343984/1754482
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2023-12-18T22:19:21 < bitmask> heyo
2023-12-18T22:29:21 < nomorekaki> mayo
2023-12-18T22:32:37 < Steffanx> ketchup?
2023-12-18T22:45:46 < bitmask> I relish your jokes
2023-12-18T22:47:45 < bitmask> im wasting so much time because I don't know how to use an ECS system
2023-12-18T22:48:56 < qyx> I like mustard more but kids tend to scream in trauma when I mention it
2023-12-18T22:49:08 < Steffanx> 3 more or less gingers talking, what else is happening bitmask ?
2023-12-18T22:49:24 < Steffanx> oh, now qyx joined the club, not sure he's ginger-more-or-less
2023-12-18T22:49:40 < bitmask> Steffanx is a ginger? i had no idea
2023-12-18T22:49:59 < bitmask> actually i didnt know about kaki either
2023-12-18T22:50:59 < Steffanx> Nowadays its more brown than red, but I totally was as a kid.
2023-12-18T22:51:33 < bitmask> yea im glad mine isn't that bright red, never really was
2023-12-18T22:51:57 < qyx> I am more silverish now
2023-12-18T22:52:09 < bitmask> my beard is gettin gray
2023-12-18T22:52:23 < Steffanx> lol grandpa qyx 
2023-12-18T22:53:06 < bitmask> my hair is real thin though and its thinning in the front so i started hair loss spray :P
2023-12-18T22:53:14 < bitmask> cause i cant pull off bald
2023-12-18T22:54:14 < bitmask> the spray sucks when you have most of your hair though so i actually use a dropper to try to get it on the scalp
2023-12-18T23:04:05 < Steffanx> :P
2023-12-18T23:05:45 < bitmask> What would you do if I didn't share this kind of information with you?
2023-12-18T23:06:27 < Steffanx> Let's go back in time and try this scenario. Only then i will know.
2023-12-18T23:06:33 < Steffanx> or not.
2023-12-18T23:23:41 < bitmask> :P
2023-12-18T23:55:32 < qyx> zyp: after enabling usagefault handler in freertos I am now confused, when I put a null pointer access in a task and the handler is empty, it just stays there and that's all, eventually a preemptive context switch occurs and another task is being run for a while 
2023-12-18T23:55:55 < qyx> but the system now looks 100% working except the task with null pointer "freezes"
2023-12-18T23:56:09 < qyx> (and starves the rest of the system, idle task is not being run)
2023-12-18T23:56:16 < qyx> is that the expected behaviour?
2023-12-18T23:56:43 < zyp> idk, that's a freertos question
2023-12-18T23:57:08 < qyx> it has nothing to do with it
2023-12-18T23:57:24 < qyx> the fault handler has just bx lr
2023-12-18T23:57:37 < qyx> does it mean the handler is called again immediately?
2023-12-18T23:57:52 < zyp> oh, you added your own handler, and you return from it?
2023-12-18T23:57:56 < qyx> now that I am thinking about it a bit
2023-12-18T23:57:57 < qyx> yes
2023-12-18T23:58:10 < zyp> yeah
2023-12-18T23:58:11 < qyx> what I was expecting?
2023-12-18T23:58:49 < qyx> honestly I did not even consider I can return from the handler
2023-12-18T23:58:53 < zyp> freertos could use the handler to suspend the task, mark it as crashed or whatever and perform a context switch
2023-12-18T23:59:07 < zyp> to allow a task to fail without bringing down the entire system
2023-12-18T23:59:09 < qyx> it does nothing, I have to do it
2023-12-18T23:59:24 < qyx> but I cannot manipulate the task from within the handler itself
2023-12-18T23:59:40 < zyp> this is something that should be done by the freertos port
--- Day changed ti joulu 19 2023
2023-12-19T00:00:19 < qyx> they are literally saying do anything you consider sane
2023-12-19T00:00:31 < qyx> but there is no api to call to suspend nor delete the task from the ISR context
2023-12-19T00:00:41 < qyx> so I have to defer it to a task
2023-12-19T00:00:48 < zyp> part of the thing here is also that all faults might not be permanent; in some cases you can have the fault handler fix whatever so that the task will succeed when it tries again
2023-12-19T00:01:21 < qyx> ok this looks easier than I previously though
2023-12-19T00:01:45 < qyx> I though the thing is gonna break into pieces when I do not do the right thing inside the handler
2023-12-19T00:01:48 < zyp> e.g. you might have the FPU disabled by default so that you don't need to save FPU state for tasks that don't use it, and once a task tries using it, you mark the task as using the FPU, enable it and let the task retry
2023-12-19T00:02:25 < zyp> but in your case, if you're just gonna be dumping and restarting, you might want to not return from the handler ever
2023-12-19T00:03:15 < qyx> I will mark the offending task, signal a semaphore of a super-priority task and yield
2023-12-19T00:03:45 < qyx> and save the dump there
2023-12-19T00:04:34 < qyx> if I make the handler naked, registers, pc, lr, etc. should be saved in the task control block once it "returns"
2023-12-19T00:06:57 < zyp> I think you want to extend the port in that case so you can tie into the existing context switching mechanisms
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2023-12-19T00:26:19 < ds2> anyone here messed with the RiscV chips?
2023-12-19T00:27:13 < nomorekaki> every other player in here probs
2023-12-19T00:38:25 < karlp> qyx: finally got the lava going for you...
2023-12-19T00:39:37 < karlp> live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1e_MWJ1nQc
2023-12-19T00:39:57 < karlp> or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=804nPrAUAxg 
2023-12-19T00:41:13 < fenugrec> such kilojoules
2023-12-19T00:42:00 < karlp> such.  
2023-12-19T00:42:14 < fenugrec> how's the smoke
2023-12-19T00:42:21 < karlp> timely as well, some of the residents were complaining on the news tonight that they're still not allowed back home overnight.
2023-12-19T00:42:45 < karlp> here, nothing.  my sister in law lives a bit closer, she can actually see the fountains from her deck, she can find the smell already.
2023-12-19T00:42:54 < karlp> will know a bit more in the morning.
2023-12-19T00:43:57 < qyx> karlp: thats a great christmas present
2023-12-19T00:44:13 < karlp> wife was _just_ emailing out travel documents for people coming :)
2023-12-19T00:44:20 < karlp> blue lagoon opened up yesterday :)
2023-12-19T00:44:34 < qyx> where is the lava now?
2023-12-19T00:45:08 < nomorekaki> is the town now being destroyed?
2023-12-19T00:45:19 < qyx> south to grindavik?
2023-12-19T00:45:26 < nomorekaki> is that same place?
2023-12-19T00:46:06 < karlp> a little hard to get any firm detail yet. but looks to be just north of town, in a very not-good location for it.
2023-12-19T00:46:14 < karlp> but... who knows.
2023-12-19T00:48:00 < qyx> oh you can seek back in the live stream to see the start
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2023-12-19T00:56:24 < qyx> east of Sýlingarfell most probably,
2023-12-19T00:56:47 < karlp> yeah, your girl kristin is on the radio, northern end of sundhnuksgigar.
2023-12-19T00:57:01 < karlp> they're in the air now to get better details
2023-12-19T00:58:04 < qyx> what's gigar
2023-12-19T00:58:52 < qyx> this is great https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BerZJunvSik
2023-12-19T01:01:15 < karlp> gígar is craters
2023-12-19T01:01:41 < karlp> in other news, this is getting closer: https://twitter.com/arturo182/status/1736818775587172419
2023-12-19T01:03:07 < qyx> k back to faults
2023-12-19T01:14:54 < fenugrec> that lower-left camera (reykjanes multiview) has impressive zoom, I hadn't realized it was so far 
2023-12-19T01:23:05 < karlp> it's really lengthened ncely too
2023-12-19T01:29:46 < karlp> https://www.ruv.is/sjonvarp/beint/ruv2 live rfrom the heli
2023-12-19T01:30:40 < karlp> neweest estimate: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/mQs1N.png
2023-12-19T01:33:07 < qyx> pretty wide
2023-12-19T01:34:24 < qyx> oh default priority of fault handlers is 0
2023-12-19T01:34:31 < qyx> and freertos doesn't like it
2023-12-19T01:35:00 < fenugrec> nothing as intense here, some flooding though after 30-40mm rain https://images.radio-canada.ca/q_auto,w_1200/v1/ici-info/16x9/riviere-montmorency-beauport.jpeg
2023-12-19T01:35:04 < fenugrec> englishman you still dry ?
2023-12-19T01:41:00 < qyx> I'll kill that arm gcc python 3.8 issue
2023-12-19T01:42:01 < qyx> *gdb
2023-12-19T01:45:16 < karlp> yeah, I just use system gdb instead.
2023-12-19T01:45:37 < karlp> yeah, north queensland got 650mm in 19hours.
2023-12-19T01:45:40 < karlp> fucking shit tons
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2023-12-19T01:58:27 < qyx> ok I managed to kill the offending task
2023-12-19T02:02:32 < karlp> qyx: vedur map now: https://vedur.is/media/uncategorized/Kort_1812_2300.png
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2023-12-19T02:03:40 < qyx> karlp: according to contours the town should be safe
2023-12-19T02:04:02 < qyx> no easy way for the lava to go south-west?
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2023-12-19T02:08:09 < karlp> kristin says it appears to be _mostly_ on the northern side of the watershed, but partly to the south as well.
2023-12-19T02:08:24 < karlp> could hcange easily with the volumes..
2023-12-19T02:08:30 < karlp> I'm going to bed though..
2023-12-19T02:13:18 < nomorekaki> whaat
2023-12-19T02:16:30 < nomorekaki> not live streaming lava hunting?
2023-12-19T02:18:13 < nomorekaki> I guess those people with view from their window dont feel like sleeping
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2023-12-19T02:48:05 < englishman> fenugrec: actually I’m in the Caribbean and it rains every day lol
2023-12-19T02:48:52 < englishman> None of the water sensors at home have tripped
2023-12-19T02:59:47 < qyx> jpa-: noice, you are just printing all 0x08.. addresses because of the missing frame pointer?
2023-12-19T02:59:59 < qyx> that is, there is no better way?
2023-12-19T03:00:16 < qyx> no
2023-12-19T03:02:09 < qyx> I guess I am missing some essentials to fully understand this
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2023-12-19T03:19:34 < qyx> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/sRlvj
2023-12-19T03:19:35 < qyx> \o/
2023-12-19T03:43:21 < zyp> nice
2023-12-19T03:43:58 < zyp> you should put CFSR in there too
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2023-12-19T03:48:11 < qyx> tomorrow I want to put a breakpoint in the fault handler and get memory dump with gdb
2023-12-19T03:48:44 < qyx> and then try to dump the memory in the firmware itself
2023-12-19T03:48:52 < qyx> and try to get as close as possible
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2023-12-19T04:57:13 < ColdKeyboard> Anyone used JLink to enable RDP1/2 on STM32G0 series?
2023-12-19T04:57:41 < ColdKeyboard> The flashing utility has -secure option but I'm not sure if/how that works...
2023-12-19T05:20:01 < ColdKeyboard> Yeha -securechip doesn't do anything. I assume they don't have the config for it
2023-12-19T05:21:32 < ColdKeyboard> Or maybe I just have a very old version of jlink
2023-12-19T05:50:38 < ColdKeyboard> Also, would you recommend enabling RDP from within the bootloader or to do it externally (SWD)?
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2023-12-19T06:35:09 < ColdKeyboard> jpa- You might know this. If I'm flashing option bits through SWD, do I still have to go through the flash unlock or I can flash ie 'BB' at the RDP byte location?
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2023-12-19T08:14:55 < jpa-> qyx: i'm taking the start and end of code section from the linker script (stext and etext)
2023-12-19T08:15:07 < jpa-> qyx: you can go fancy like nuttx and parse the return instructions from code:  https://github.com/apache/nuttx/blob/1c9fab65d8d114d213973d6c1f26ea4ffc429e54/arch/arm/src/common/arm_backtrace_sp.c#L236
2023-12-19T08:15:54 < jpa-> but i think that is overkill, all it gets you is that it avoids the rare cases where a string constant or something else gets in middle of the values.. i have found those easy enough to read, and sometimes even helpful
2023-12-19T08:16:40 < jpa-> ColdKeyboard: i don't know, i always flash option bits through firmware itself
2023-12-19T08:17:09 < jpa-> ColdKeyboard: i assume it has to do the same flash register stuff if done through debugger, but some debugger software might do it automatically
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2023-12-19T08:39:07 < jpa-> karlp: i kind of expected https://www.erkomideldgos.is/ to change to read "Ja!", but instead it no longer responds; i guess that makes sense for a volcano indicator
2023-12-19T08:41:07 < qyx> that's pretty lame, lava fail
2023-12-19T08:41:20 < qyx> jpa-: interesting approach
2023-12-19T08:47:52 < qyx> browsing hex editors and stuff to find any tool to compare binaries which is symbol-aware
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2023-12-19T09:26:13 < jpa-> i like binwalk for comparing binaries, but not sure what symbol-awareness here would even mean
2023-12-19T09:46:06 < qyx> to see what the differing piece actually is
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2023-12-19T10:05:11 < jpa-> so basically call addr2line on the differing address
2023-12-19T10:06:54 < qyx> basically but nicer
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2023-12-19T11:32:36 < karlp> jpa-: oh, yeah, last time I think it started redirecting to the civil deffence website.
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2023-12-19T16:51:46 < ColdKeyboard> jpa- I actually made a JLink script that does that. Unlocks option byte, sets RDP and then locks it back. Seems to be working
2023-12-19T16:52:01 < ColdKeyboard> Thanks for mentioning that (basic) bootloader would not work with RDP2
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2023-12-19T23:41:50 < jadew> My boss is sick and Christmas is right around the corner. Is it a bad time to submit my resignation?
2023-12-19T23:42:25 < jadew> I'm basically just asking to be allowed to do my job, so I'm not even sure if I should feel bad about it :/
2023-12-19T23:44:39 < nomorekaki> what's the rush?
2023-12-19T23:45:03 < jadew> I hate every minute of it
2023-12-19T23:45:11 < nomorekaki> then do it tommorow
2023-12-19T23:45:31 < nomorekaki> don't postpone
2023-12-19T23:46:16 < jadew> That was the plan - I'm not even directly resigning. I'm just asking that he allows me to do my job, with the specification that if he won't, then I resign.
2023-12-19T23:46:47 < nomorekaki> good
2023-12-19T23:49:57 < nomorekaki> what is that you do btw. you have maybe told once but been quite silent in ircs?
2023-12-19T23:50:29 < jadew> tech lead
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2023-12-19T23:51:05 < jadew> At least I'm trying to
2023-12-19T23:52:03 < nomorekaki> sounds like project management
2023-12-19T23:52:39 < nomorekaki> or chilling
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2023-12-19T23:52:51 < jadew> Code review, teaching, technical decisions, architecture, and coding
2023-12-19T23:53:31 < nomorekaki> you have to do 2 weeks in?
2023-12-19T23:53:38 < jadew> Some project management is expected, but I don't have the inclination for it.
2023-12-19T23:53:54 < jadew> What's that?
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2023-12-19T23:54:03 < nomorekaki> your resign period
2023-12-19T23:54:21 < nomorekaki> asking if you have such
2023-12-19T23:54:27 < jadew> 4 weeks, but if they don't need me, we can part ways the same day.
2023-12-19T23:56:06 < zyp> that's short
2023-12-19T23:56:11 < nomorekaki> ofc
2023-12-19T23:56:28 < jadew> Yeah, I liked that part of the contract :)
2023-12-19T23:57:08 < jadew> On the other hand, I do have to document a lot of crap, so they don't really need you to stick around if you decide to leave.
2023-12-19T23:59:28 < qyx> yesterday was too late
2023-12-19T23:59:39 < jadew> To quit?
2023-12-19T23:59:52 < nomorekaki> tommow is too early
--- Day changed ke joulu 20 2023
2023-12-20T00:00:06 < qyx> ime if you feel you are burning out it is already too late
2023-12-20T00:00:21 < qyx> and you already have like 25% of the usual performance
2023-12-20T00:01:04 < jadew> I am, I thought I can suck it up for the stability it offers, but it doesn't feel stable if I can't feel there's a match.
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2023-12-20T00:01:21 < qyx> because (at least for me) that period between noticing something is not right and completely going insane is about half a year
2023-12-20T00:01:22 < jadew> I'm constantly at odds with my boss.
2023-12-20T00:01:50 < jadew> qyx, that exactly right - I've been here for half a year.
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2023-12-20T00:02:35 < jadew> And yes, I did notice some red flags since my first day in, but was happy about it, seeing it as an opportunity to improve things.
2023-12-20T00:02:44 < jadew> "There's actually work for me here!"
2023-12-20T00:02:53 < nomorekaki> qyx: interesting
2023-12-20T00:03:37 < qyx> but hey, don't listen to me
2023-12-20T00:04:11 < jadew> No, you're right. I actually needed to hear that.
2023-12-20T00:04:14 < nomorekaki> that might be right
2023-12-20T00:04:45 < qyx> I also had one extreme I rushed to quit one week after starting, even before the contract was signed
2023-12-20T00:05:04 < qyx> it took me only 2 meetings and 2 tasks
2023-12-20T00:05:09 < jadew> What happened?
2023-12-20T00:05:35 < qyx> thats a long story, and a "secret one" not to trigger lawyers
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2023-12-20T00:09:08 < nomorekaki> jadew: how is the economics of your situation?
2023-12-20T00:09:26 < jadew> nomorekaki, pretty bad...
2023-12-20T00:09:41 < jadew> We can live off of savings for one year, maybe two.
2023-12-20T00:09:55 < jadew> I'd say 1 tho..
2023-12-20T00:10:19 < nomorekaki> pretty good
2023-12-20T00:10:39 < jadew> When I say live, I mean live poorly :P
2023-12-20T00:11:59 < nomorekaki> plus whatever moves you need to pull
2023-12-20T00:15:23 < nomorekaki> have anything in sight?
2023-12-20T00:15:58 < jadew> Yeah, it's a demotion, but I'd take it.
2023-12-20T00:16:06 < nomorekaki> yes
2023-12-20T00:16:31 < jadew> Probably less money too - would also take it.
2023-12-20T00:16:46 < nomorekaki> yes
2023-12-20T00:17:04 < nomorekaki> plan is ready
2023-12-20T00:17:52 < nomorekaki> it's just the "boss fight" tommorow then
2023-12-20T00:19:29 < jadew> I actually have sympathy for him and I'm sorry about the situation, but I've only had two good days in 6 months.
2023-12-20T00:20:06 < jadew> One was when I got to ignore everything and write a plugin for an external library, from scratch.
2023-12-20T00:20:50 < jadew> I felt so good at the end of the day...
2023-12-20T00:20:59 < nomorekaki> what is your bosses relationship with the company?
2023-12-20T00:21:08 < jadew> He owns it...
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2023-12-20T00:29:03 < nomorekaki> well he is entrepreneur it's has been his job to figure out before you even worked there
2023-12-20T00:30:44 < jadew> I know, that's why I sympathize. It's hard for him to let go, but it's also absurd to weigh in on technical matters and on developer management when I'm here.
2023-12-20T00:34:24 < nomorekaki> just write job ad for your replacement and doc everything important
2023-12-20T00:35:43 < nomorekaki> tell boss you burned out and maybe why
2023-12-20T00:35:58 < nomorekaki> if it's constructive
2023-12-20T00:37:58 < jadew> Already had that discussion, and I thought it was. It resulted in me starting work on a side project (that I deemed to be necessary), and two days later he pulled me from that and put me on something else.
2023-12-20T00:38:16 < jadew> I'm still not sure if he didn't do it specifically to derail me.
2023-12-20T00:41:05 < nomorekaki> ah good
2023-12-20T00:41:13 < nomorekaki> then forget the second part do part1
2023-12-20T00:43:16 < nomorekaki> or suggest it to your boss. after all he decides what is required
2023-12-20T00:43:56 < jadew> Suggest what? To write the ad?
2023-12-20T00:44:34 < nomorekaki> that you write ad and docs
2023-12-20T00:46:59 < nomorekaki> I think I would hate working in SW company
2023-12-20T00:47:35 < jadew> It's not all bad, but most of them are shit, yes.
2023-12-20T00:48:35 < jadew> I know a guy who barely knew how to write a hello world get a programming job at a large Romanian company, by having a friend take the programming exam instead of him (online).
2023-12-20T00:48:53 < nomorekaki> now he is CEO?
2023-12-20T00:48:57 < jadew> He was then quickly promoted
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2023-12-20T00:49:11 < nomorekaki> they noticed real potential
2023-12-20T00:49:26 < jadew> He got promoted several times, so he's leading senior developers now lol
2023-12-20T00:50:25 < nomorekaki> he delegated even his apply test
2023-12-20T00:50:36 < jadew> haha
2023-12-20T00:52:03 < jadew> Can you imagine what it's like to be a real senior and have this guy as your superior?
2023-12-20T00:53:16 < nomorekaki> I'm sure world is full of similar examples
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2023-12-20T00:55:28 < jadew> Time for bed, night o/
2023-12-20T00:56:20 < nomorekaki> yes
2023-12-20T00:57:29 < Steffanx> No
2023-12-20T00:57:38 < Steffanx> Too early nomorekaki 
2023-12-20T00:58:08 < nomorekaki> yes, not for me I just affirmed jadew to sleep
2023-12-20T00:58:34 < zyp> ok
2023-12-20T01:05:38 < Steffanx> Time to sleep zyp 
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2023-12-20T01:33:23 < karlp> 22:02 <jadew> And yes, I did notice some red flags since my first day in, but was happy about it, seeing it as an opportunity to improve things.
2023-12-20T01:33:25 < karlp> 22:02 <jadew> "There's actually work for me here!"
2023-12-20T01:33:27 < karlp> hehe, that's me at the new job.
2023-12-20T01:33:41 < karlp> well, I wasn't happy about it, but I'm trying to use "there's things to do! as a good thing"
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2023-12-20T03:10:27 < nomorekaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8NqBXT6Kos
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2023-12-20T03:52:29 < qyx> ok lold hard, I cannot find symbols in the map file for my changed parts of memdumps
2023-12-20T03:52:48 < qyx> now I realised freertos's dynamic allocation is a thing
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2023-12-20T05:26:28 < qyx> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/UXxFr
2023-12-20T05:26:58 < qyx> single char is 32 bytes, there are two squares of 32K each
2023-12-20T05:27:35 < qyx> pretty much of the memory gets corrupted between entering the usage fault handler and saving the dump to flash
2023-12-20T05:33:03 < qyx> I will probably need to reboot the device or to manually mask all interrupts and suspend all tasks, effectively rwendering the system unusable even for saving the dump
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2023-12-20T07:02:13 < ColdKeyboard> Numpy is pretty loosy goosy with it's arrays... Got bunch of leading zeroes on the MCU when sending array data only to find that Numpy for some reason defaults to uin64 by default
2023-12-20T07:02:26 < ColdKeyboard> Not everything has a ton of ram
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2023-12-20T08:14:40 < jpa-> qyx: yeah, to get proper dump you need to mask interrupts; just have an alternative write routine that uses polling
2023-12-20T08:41:20 < qyx> jpa-: nah, there is a filesystem underneath, logical volumes, flash driver, etx
2023-12-20T08:42:24 < jpa-> so designate a few flash blocks outside of that for the crash dump
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2023-12-20T08:42:53 < jpa-> also makes it easier to retrieve it after you hit the first flash corruption
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2023-12-20T09:04:21 < qyx> I also had a yolo idea of enabling the MPU with a single region across the SRAM and doing CoW in the mem fault handler
2023-12-20T09:30:19 < jpa-> if you are already in a crash handler, i wouldn't bother trying to continue running the rest of the system; it will just mess up the state more and risk double-fault
2023-12-20T09:31:26 < jpa-> if you want to yolo things, memdumps compress well so you might be able to fit it into small enough portion of RAM that you can reboot and save there
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2023-12-20T10:25:56 < jpa-> meh.. this must be one of those days
2023-12-20T10:26:29 < jpa-> STM32F4 built-in DFU bootloader is immediately crashing when USB cable is connected and rebooting to main application; and now GDB is crashing when i try to trace my way through the DFU bootloader  http://paste.dy.fi/xPU/plain
2023-12-20T10:28:17 < qyx> this backtrace looks like mine
2023-12-20T10:35:23 < jpa-> it also doesn't help that i think flash patch breakpoint unit does not want to work in system memory area
2023-12-20T10:43:50 < jpa-> hmm.. i guess seeing flash contents randomly change as you step through in gdb layout asm is not a good sign
2023-12-20T10:44:18 < jpa-> probably i've failed at soldering some power pin
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2023-12-20T11:00:24 < jpa-> meh, it somehow doesn't like the capacitors i added to trim the crystal frequency
2023-12-20T11:10:34 < jpa-> 8.000016 MHz => bootloader doesn't work, 8.000258 MHz => bootloader is happy
2023-12-20T11:10:46 < jpa-> user app works fine either way
2023-12-20T11:10:55 < jpa-> occurs on multiple boards
2023-12-20T11:19:33 < karlp> ... wat?
2023-12-20T11:20:12 < karlp> I think I saw some errata or footnote in one of the appnotes about the rom bootloader incorrectly identifying the crystal speed, but I think that was if you used 24 and 25M crystals, not 8...
2023-12-20T11:22:26 < jpa-> yeah
2023-12-20T11:22:45 < jpa-> not sure what crap this is, i think i'll retry with signal generator on another day
2023-12-20T11:24:01 < qyx> doesn't the bl output pll clock on some MCO for debug?
2023-12-20T11:24:03 < jpa-> i did see some jitter on the crystal pins on one board, but then on another board i didn't see it so dunno what.. https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/other/crystal_jitter.html
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2023-12-20T11:24:20 < karlp> such interesting problems.  I'm just doing plain old C mega pile of sw stuff.
2023-12-20T11:24:35 < jpa-> that's what i *should* be doing also
2023-12-20T11:24:46 < qyx> plain lold c
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2023-12-20T11:25:23 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/Ny6xW/Screenshot_2023-12-20_10-25-07.png
2023-12-20T11:25:31 < qyx> I am getting somewhere
2023-12-20T11:25:37 < PaulFertser> btw, does anyone here have experience reflashing Rigol DS1054Z bootloader with a SOIC clamp or something like that? The fucker here in the hackspace refuses all my attempts at upgrading firmware the normal supported way.
2023-12-20T11:26:08 < qyx> reorganised the dumping code a bit, much less SRAM corrupton now
2023-12-20T11:26:33 < qyx> those highlighted areas are known to be modified, SPI & NOR flash drivers, filesystem state, etc.
2023-12-20T11:27:46 < qyx> the remaining yellow part is the crash manager itself, probably.. trying to get the exact address from the freertos dynamic pool
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2023-12-20T14:02:58 < srk> jpa-: for what device you gonna use the register explorer? fucking with the svd tooling atm
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2023-12-20T14:14:13 < jpa-> srk: STM32F417
2023-12-20T14:18:09 < srk> cool, these I have covered mostly, just finished handling dimensions and clusters that are in patched stm32-rs SVDs
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2023-12-20T19:32:00 < qyx> k officially call me a lamer
2023-12-20T19:32:28 < qyx> because the mcu I am using doesn't have 64K of wham, my linker script is wrong
2023-12-20T19:32:49 < qyx> it has 80K of sram1, 16K of sram2 and 16K of CCM
2023-12-20T19:33:07 < qyx> which solves all my problems I was trying to solve for two days
2023-12-20T19:37:20  * specing calls the whambulance
2023-12-20T19:37:30 < specing> Where's laurencer these days
2023-12-20T20:16:15 < jadew> Probably detained by UK authorities for thought crimes.
2023-12-20T20:27:27 < specing> lol
2023-12-20T20:27:32 < specing> I see he's banned here
2023-12-20T20:27:50 < specing> Who dares banning such an amazing human being lol
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2023-12-20T21:04:53 < antto> did someone say .svd
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2023-12-20T22:16:03 < Steffanx> HelloAntto.gif 
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2023-12-20T22:34:55 < nomorekaki> jadew:
2023-12-20T22:36:03 < nomorekaki> status report
2023-12-20T22:37:12 < jadew> I sent out the e-mail. Didn't get an answer yet.
2023-12-20T22:37:38 < nomorekaki> :o
2023-12-20T22:39:06 < jadew> Do you guys know about this? https://ghidra-sre.org/
2023-12-20T22:39:09 < jadew> Anyone used it yet?
2023-12-20T22:39:18 < zyp> yeah, it's a few years old
2023-12-20T22:39:31 < jadew> Is it any good?
2023-12-20T22:39:46 < zyp> for the price tag? absolutely
2023-12-20T22:39:48 < nomorekaki> yes
2023-12-20T22:39:49 < jadew> Makes me nervous to install something released by the NSA :P
2023-12-20T22:40:11 < jadew> zyp, compared to IDA?
2023-12-20T22:40:24 < jadew> I still have the free version of IDA somewhere.
2023-12-20T22:40:30 < nomorekaki> jadew: you can rationalize it by thinking NSA will access your pc if they want even without installing Ghidra
2023-12-20T22:41:01 < jadew> nomorekaki, sure, but it still feel icky.
2023-12-20T22:43:31 < jadew> From the video on that website, it looks very similar to IDA.
2023-12-20T22:43:49 < zyp> it does
2023-12-20T22:44:01 < zyp> IME it's more capable than the free IDA version
2023-12-20T22:48:45 < nomorekaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKpS6wNeoeg remember this melody from 94?
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2023-12-20T23:12:49  * qyx using a variable length struct member for the first time in his life
2023-12-20T23:13:25 < jadew> qyx, what's that?
2023-12-20T23:15:23 < qyx> eg. uint8_t work_buf[]; at the end of a struct
2023-12-20T23:15:41 < qyx> very risky business
2023-12-20T23:15:52 < nomorekaki> is it legal?
2023-12-20T23:16:04 < qyx> the compiler says yes
2023-12-20T23:16:11 < jadew> nomorekaki, I suppose it has to do with how you allocate the memory, but it sounds ok.
2023-12-20T23:16:21 < nomorekaki> wouldnt do that
2023-12-20T23:16:30 < nomorekaki> even if I could
2023-12-20T23:16:41 < qyx> it is handy
2023-12-20T23:16:51 < qyx> because I want the work buf to be directly after that struct
2023-12-20T23:17:07 < qyx> and to be opaque to the linker because it accesses memory which is detected at runtime
2023-12-20T23:17:10 < jadew> You only have one allocation, rather than one for the struct and one for whatever data you have there.
2023-12-20T23:17:51 < nomorekaki> where can I read more?
2023-12-20T23:18:21 < qyx> idk, there are some c books in the library
2023-12-20T23:18:26 < jadew> nomorekaki, you know that saying: a line of code is worth 1000 words.
2023-12-20T23:19:20 < zyp> qyx, be sure to use [] and not e.g. [1]
2023-12-20T23:20:21 < qyx> and now when I have a working work buffer
2023-12-20T23:20:26 < qyx> let's do some heatshrinking
2023-12-20T23:20:57 < zyp> a coworker did the latter and ended up with the compiler figuring out «okay, there can't be more than one element in this array, so instead of iterating let's just check that it's not empty and do a tail call»
2023-12-20T23:21:58 < zyp> ref. https://godbolt.org/z/jjz5TEabx
2023-12-20T23:22:13 < zyp> remove the «1» on line 7 to see the difference
2023-12-20T23:25:11 < qyx> with -O0 it doesn't do that
2023-12-20T23:25:18 < zyp> naturally
2023-12-20T23:25:48 < qyx> even -Os works
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2023-12-20T23:25:55 < jadew> Do you guys remember hacker's view? The hex editor/disassembler? Do you know of an alternative for linux?
2023-12-20T23:26:07 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FGB0GwEbXsAATzUl.png
2023-12-20T23:26:08 < zyp> -O is short for --dont-throw-out-my-shitty-code-please
2023-12-20T23:26:11 < Laurenceb_> how will Musk recover
2023-12-20T23:26:13 < zyp> -O0, I mean
2023-12-20T23:28:34 < jadew> Hmm, it looks wxHexEditor might have a disassembler built in
2023-12-20T23:32:01 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FGBzBkBuWsAAqODc.png%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
2023-12-20T23:43:05 < specing> Laurenceb_: lool
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--- Day changed to joulu 21 2023
2023-12-21T00:18:14 < qyx> now I want to statically allocate space for such a struct with variable length member
2023-12-21T00:18:36 < qyx> I am not creative enough for that
2023-12-21T00:19:04 < qyx> of course if I do struct foo bar;, only sizeof(struct foo) will be reserved
2023-12-21T00:19:46 < qyx> I may do uint8_t bar[sizeof(struct foo) + variable_content]; and cast it
2023-12-21T00:19:51 < qyx> but that's not nice
2023-12-21T00:22:41 < zyp> did you see my godbolt?
2023-12-21T00:23:19 < qyx> yes
2023-12-21T00:23:23 < zyp> wrap the inner struct in an anonymous struct created by a macro, using the macro argument for the buffer size
2023-12-21T00:23:48 < zyp> then use the inner struct type for pointers
2023-12-21T00:24:12 < zyp> that way the macro type only needs to exist for allocation
2023-12-21T00:25:58 < zyp> what's the best way to implement packet FIFOs in shared memory?
2023-12-21T00:26:28 < qyx> oh wait
2023-12-21T00:26:49 < zyp> byte FIFOs are easy, just do a ringbuffer with atomic write and read pointers
2023-12-21T00:27:08 < zyp> but what do I do if I want to do packets?
2023-12-21T00:27:18 < qyx> I did it the same with a header
2023-12-21T00:27:23 < qyx> as a TLV struct
2023-12-21T00:27:30 < qyx> the header says if it is a packet, length + data
2023-12-21T00:27:35 < qyx> or a NOP, length + data
2023-12-21T00:27:54 < qyx> before writing a packet you check if there is enough space to the end of the righ buffer
2023-12-21T00:27:57 < qyx> if yes, write
2023-12-21T00:28:12 < qyx> if no, write a NOP, which is shorter than the packet and wrap around, then write the actual packet
2023-12-21T00:28:20 < qyx> when reading simply skip all NOPs
2023-12-21T00:28:38 < zyp> yeah, that works for read flow control, but sounds like a hassle to manage when writing
2023-12-21T00:32:43 < zyp> I think it might be easier to have a conventional ringbuffer holding packet offset+size, and then just store the packet data back to back in a second buffer
2023-12-21T00:33:56 < zyp> although that requires reasonable balancing wrt. average packet size so you don't run out of metadata space long before data space or the other way around
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2023-12-21T00:35:10 < qyx> and dynamically allocating?
2023-12-21T00:35:22 < zyp> no
2023-12-21T00:35:37 < qyx> preallocated array of MTU packets?
2023-12-21T00:35:51 < qyx> no
2023-12-21T00:36:04 < zyp> no, just a preallocated area
2023-12-21T00:45:18 < zyp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/21OAQ something like this perhaps
2023-12-21T00:45:38 < zyp> plus a check that headers isn't full
2023-12-21T00:46:58 < fenugrec> what, a discussion about disassemblers on #stm32 and I miss it
2023-12-21T00:48:08 < fenugrec> jadew , 'hiew.exe' man that is OG
2023-12-21T00:48:36 < fenugrec> wxhex is semi-maintained. I use 'bless' for simple hexedit viewing, but ghidra for 90% of my RE needs
2023-12-21T00:52:11 < fenugrec> at this point the only thing ida would do for me would be their 5-star support (when you pay) and some oddball archs
2023-12-21T01:00:35 < qyx> compile time configurable libraries are sh*t
2023-12-21T01:01:06 < qyx> fighting with the heatshrink library now, it uses dynamic alloc by default
2023-12-21T01:01:16 < qyx> most parts of the projects uses dynamic alloc, taht's fine
2023-12-21T01:01:34 < qyx> but there is a config.h in the sources defining that + some other parameters
2023-12-21T01:01:56 < qyx> now I need to use static alloc in one part, I can't
2023-12-21T01:02:19 < qyx> when I override config locally, it doesn't work because the lib is compiled with a different one
2023-12-21T01:02:34 < qyx> when I copy the lib locally, obv it doesn't link because duplicate symbols
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2023-12-21T12:32:29 < machinehum> qyx: https://youtu.be/vt0DXQHoOR4?si=LFXHL7hTNUG-6T19
2023-12-21T12:32:59 < machinehum> If you're interested in how it all turned out
2023-12-21T12:36:09 < machinehum> Seems like a few DIY battery people are interested
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2023-12-21T12:46:09 < karlp> holy shit I hate this style.
2023-12-21T12:46:20 < karlp> I'm too old and grumpy for that intro.
2023-12-21T12:51:56 < qyx> machinehum: does it work acceptably?
2023-12-21T12:52:14 < machinehum> lol thanks karlp 
2023-12-21T12:52:15 < qyx> did you really use 3 microcontrollers
2023-12-21T12:52:24 < machinehum> For now yes
2023-12-21T12:52:50 < machinehum> Customer wanted users to play with a toy MCU and not break the systems - esp32
2023-12-21T12:53:17 < machinehum> stm32 is on the bms voltage rail, seperate supply and needs to manage faults etc
2023-12-21T12:54:30 < machinehum> qyx: Works alright yeah
2023-12-21T12:54:47 < machinehum> Thermals are nice
2023-12-21T12:54:59 < machinehum> Like 40-50C at 10A
2023-12-21T12:55:44 < machinehum> Has a problem finding male barrel jacks I could plug into the output that wouldn't melt
2023-12-21T12:56:42 < machinehum> On a more personal note jbo helped me find my flat, which I just moved into
2023-12-21T12:58:37 < Steffanx> Oh you're in swisserland now? 
2023-12-21T12:58:49 < machinehum> yes
2023-12-21T12:59:58 < machinehum> Let me ask you guys a question, where your from, when people move to another (rental) flat. Do they take with them all the ceiling lights and just leave bare wires hanging out lol?
2023-12-21T13:00:11 < qyx> no
2023-12-21T13:01:52 < machinehum> They do that here, biggest culture shock so far heh
2023-12-21T13:02:18 < qyx> usually you can't touch such things unless explicitly allowed to
2023-12-21T13:02:43 < qyx> and even then you have to put the old back when you leave
2023-12-21T13:02:50 < machinehum> The waste disposel process is also quite a bit different, but for the most part it's better than Canada
2023-12-21T13:03:10 < qyx> what's different?
2023-12-21T13:04:13 < machinehum> Where I'm from a building will have 3-5 dumpsters, trash, glass, plasic, metal, organics, cardboard
2023-12-21T13:04:19 < machinehum> Just huck your shit in
2023-12-21T13:05:06 < machinehum> Here it seems the tax is build into the bag cost itself, you buy there blue garbage bags (not cheap) and just drop them outside on the correct day
2023-12-21T13:05:22 < karlp> swiss also has to repaint in state standard colour when you move out iirc.
2023-12-21T13:05:24 < karlp> weirdos.
2023-12-21T13:05:46 < machinehum> It incentivises people to create less waste, which I'm all for
2023-12-21T13:05:58 < Steffanx> Here in dutchland.. yeah usually take everything too, except for some stuff that sometimes "belongs" to the rental
2023-12-21T13:06:26 < machinehum> People don't touch mains electricity in Canada
2023-12-21T13:06:34 < machinehum> They're too dumb
2023-12-21T13:06:50 < machinehum> You average person would have no idea how to wire in a light
2023-12-21T13:07:01 < karlp> here you would often end up with bare bulbs, not the ceiling lights that were present earlier. which is still dumb IMO.
2023-12-21T13:07:11 < machinehum> karlp: Yeah same
2023-12-21T13:07:15 < machinehum> You're from US?
2023-12-21T13:07:20 < karlp> no. iceland.
2023-12-21T13:07:31 < machinehum> Sorry
2023-12-21T13:10:15 < qyx> are you talking about private rental flats?
2023-12-21T13:10:25 < qyx> or some gow subsidied renyals?
2023-12-21T13:10:31 < qyx> *rentals
2023-12-21T13:11:11 < qyx> oh we also have colour bags but we pay fixed amount yearly and we get a fixed count of bags
2023-12-21T13:11:32 < machinehum> Yeah, like renting an appartment
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2023-12-21T14:10:20 < jadew> Fantastic, so not only you have to carry all your shit, you also have to bring your own chandeliers and wall lights.
2023-12-21T14:10:58 < jadew> The worst thing about renting is the part when you move.
2023-12-21T14:11:32 < jadew> The more shit you have, the worse it is.
2023-12-21T14:17:10 < machinehum> We had no shit
2023-12-21T14:17:25 < machinehum> And got lucky, found a fully furnished flat
2023-12-21T14:20:42 < jadew> Didn't know if that's a thing in other places as well. In movies they all seem to rent empty apartments.
2023-12-21T14:20:48 < ventYl> machinehum: it depends, ~15 years ago I rented a flat where there were no lights. just bare wires poking out of the ceiling. I had to buy and mount my own light. Got electrocut twice while installing hook
2023-12-21T14:21:11 < jadew> Is that how you decided to get into electronics?
2023-12-21T14:21:18 < ventYl> it was missing too. and it turned out that wires for some nearby flat went just around the place where the light was mounted.
2023-12-21T14:21:34 < machinehum> jadew: All the places we looked at where empty, I don't think it's common
2023-12-21T14:21:38 < ventYl> jadew: nope, I've been dancing on electro music multiple times before
2023-12-21T14:21:39 < machinehum> were empty*
2023-12-21T14:21:58 < ventYl> once it cost an innocent Pentium 133 its life
2023-12-21T14:23:01 < ventYl> I guess that wall socket must have been wired incorrectly. I touched PSU switch with one hand, CPU heatsink with other and when I turned the shit on, I got electrocut
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2023-12-21T22:30:12 < veverak> welp
2023-12-21T22:30:30 < veverak> STM32G4 provided 2kb FLASH pages to erase/write stuff
2023-12-21T22:30:50 < veverak> if I am reading this correctly, STM32H503 has only 8kb sectors to erase/write
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2023-12-21T22:32:01 < veverak> I used it to store config, and given that my config size is around 500b, having to use 8kb sectors for it is meh
2023-12-21T22:32:08 < fenugrec> why
2023-12-21T22:32:24 < fenugrec> there are numerous solutions for incrementally adding to a page without erasing the whole thing
2023-12-21T22:35:17 < veverak> maybe I should learn that
2023-12-21T22:41:01 < jpa-> littlefs is one option
2023-12-21T22:41:23 < zyp> jpa-, did you see my robot video the other day?
2023-12-21T22:42:01 < jpa-> but yeah, you could just take a pair of sectors and treat it like a 512 byte sector that has 32x lifetime
2023-12-21T22:42:37 < jpa-> zyp: i saw the link but haven't clicked it yet :)
2023-12-21T22:42:44 < zyp> heh
2023-12-21T22:43:03 < zyp> I added in the hysteresis parameter and tested again today, and it didn't help *at all*
2023-12-21T22:43:22 < fenugrec> I can almost smell the cabinet of that robot. old baked electronic dust, brushed servos...
2023-12-21T22:43:32 < zyp> brushed?
2023-12-21T22:43:40 < fenugrec> DC brushed , no ?
2023-12-21T22:43:50 < fenugrec> or PM 3phase
2023-12-21T22:43:56 < zyp> the latter
2023-12-21T22:43:57 < fenugrec> ah
2023-12-21T22:44:21 < jpa-> looks like the lini has left the scrollback, if you have it handy i could click now
2023-12-21T22:44:34 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/Vcfo3.mp4
2023-12-21T22:45:36 < jpa-> so what freq does it end up switching at?
2023-12-21T22:46:25 < zyp> it sits oscillating at 4.5 kHz
2023-12-21T22:46:53 < jpa-> sounds like that too :)
2023-12-21T22:46:58 < zyp> yeah
2023-12-21T22:47:33 < jpa-> so is the delay from control signal to fets switching 100us?
2023-12-21T22:47:37 < zyp> I figure the servo amp is probably too slow to run a DTC loop then, suspect the current feedbacks are too agressively low passed
2023-12-21T22:47:49 < zyp> idk
2023-12-21T22:48:34 < zyp> it's kinda hard to probe anything in the control cabinet except the current clamps
2023-12-21T22:48:52 < jpa-> you could do pwm-dtc if the motor rotation speed is slow compared to 4kHz
2023-12-21T22:50:09 < zyp> define slow, motors are rated for 3000 rpm and got either two or four pole pairs
2023-12-21T22:50:44 < jpa-> if it there are less than about 30 cycles per electrical rotation, you pretty much nees the classic FOC
2023-12-21T22:51:14 < sauce> eeeeeeeeeee
2023-12-21T22:53:12 < veverak> jpa-: littlefs is interesting
2023-12-21T22:53:50 < zyp> hmm, so 3000 rpm is 50 physical rotations per second, i.e. either 100 or 200 electrical ones
2023-12-21T22:54:37 < zyp> I don't remember the pole pairs, the encoders have a commutation count that wraps with the electrical rotations so I haven't really had to care
2023-12-21T22:55:01 < zyp> and I don't know what the output gear ratios are yet either…
2023-12-21T22:59:14 < jpa-> sounds more like foc than dtc territory if you have that latency in current control loop
2023-12-21T22:59:58 < veverak> is littlefs like "the shit" or is there alternative one should consider?
2023-12-21T23:00:13 < veverak> the use case is: I need to store a bunch of config options
2023-12-21T23:00:46 < jpa-> for foc it is just a matter of measuring latency and calculating the actual angle at the time the current mwasurement was taken, pid will then compensate for delay on the control aide
2023-12-21T23:01:12 < jpa-> veverak: st has "eeprom emulation library"
2023-12-21T23:01:29 < jpa-> i just reinvent my own every time i need one
2023-12-21T23:01:44 < veverak> eeeeh I did checked that
2023-12-21T23:01:52 < veverak> I don't remmeber why I hated it but it felt wrong
2023-12-21T23:02:35 < zyp> jpa-, and FOC is essentially currents -> dq0 transform -> PID -> inverse dq0 -> PWM?
2023-12-21T23:03:57 < jpa-> zyp: yeah
2023-12-21T23:04:21 < jpa-> veverak: every st library is like that
2023-12-21T23:04:37 < jpa-> they do sometimes work though
2023-12-21T23:04:45 < veverak> well, I am OK with their HAL
2023-12-21T23:05:39 < veverak> anyway, porting of the project to new chip has to conitnue, so I will use 8kb mem blocks for now and move this to littlefs later
2023-12-21T23:08:08 < qyx> have you ever heard of stm32 chips having 128KB erase blocks
2023-12-21T23:08:32 < qyx> those are the challenge, 8KB is e-z :p
2023-12-21T23:08:47 < qyx> also, spiffs is okay, idk about littlefs
2023-12-21T23:09:01 < veverak> well
2023-12-21T23:09:25 < veverak> I kinda think about friend of mine that suggested "just ignore the internal flash and get external one for storing config is much easier"
2023-12-21T23:09:46 < veverak> the good thing about external i2c memory is that it works the same no matter hwat the main chip is and migration should be easy
2023-12-21T23:11:16 < qyx> for me, if the device is complex enough to have a configuration, it usually has an external spi nor flash too
2023-12-21T23:11:41 < veverak> the thing is size
2023-12-21T23:11:45 < qyx> those chips are literally cents for the smallest ones, 1MB or so
2023-12-21T23:12:02 < veverak> I want the PCB to be as small as possible while having a nice chip powering it
2023-12-21T23:12:02 < qyx> is eg. 3x3 too big?
2023-12-21T23:12:09 < veverak> mm?
2023-12-21T23:12:13 < qyx> mm
2023-12-21T23:12:15 < veverak> nice
2023-12-21T23:13:44 < qyx> at25sf081 for example, udfn8 package, which is 3x2 mm
2023-12-21T23:14:08 < veverak> hmmmmm
2023-12-21T23:14:10 < veverak> so the thing is
2023-12-21T23:14:26 < veverak> it's a smart servo, so I want the PCB to fit inside 20x40x40mm RC servomotor
2023-12-21T23:14:33 < veverak> next to the motor and stuff
2023-12-21T23:14:42 < veverak> but 3x2 could be fittable
2023-12-21T23:14:46 < veverak> I will ask the PCB guy I work with
2023-12-21T23:15:11 < qyx> also rip veverak 
2023-12-21T23:15:22 < qyx> what are you guys doing in .cz
2023-12-21T23:15:38 < qyx> fuk the world
2023-12-21T23:16:14 < veverak> the PCB is 19x25mm currently, it might be a challenge
2023-12-21T23:16:20 < veverak> qyx: ah, you mean the shooting?
2023-12-21T23:16:26 < qyx> yeah
2023-12-21T23:16:29 < veverak> I kinda don't care, different city
2023-12-21T23:16:49 < veverak> can't do a shit about it, dont see a reason do get stressed
2023-12-21T23:17:06 < veverak> and from my communication channels it seems that there are plenty of people getting stressed about this already
2023-12-21T23:17:56 < qyx> I am not stressed just curious what I am gonna experience in my life considering the current happenings
2023-12-21T23:18:00 < qyx> but whatever
2023-12-21T23:20:14 < veverak> yeah, I find that too unpredictable anyway
--- Day changed pe joulu 22 2023
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2023-12-22T00:22:51 < jadew> https://youtu.be/7uBNCN6v_gk?t=32
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2023-12-22T11:15:44 < machinehum> You guys ever used this before? https://www.nuvoton.com/products/microcontrollers/8bit-8051-mcus/low-pin-count-8051-series/n76e003/
2023-12-22T11:16:50 < machinehum> Also, a very creative buzzer circuit https://imgur.com/a/oNot6HN
2023-12-22T11:30:11 < zyp> why would you even want to use a 8051?
2023-12-22T11:35:00 < ventYl> +1
2023-12-22T11:37:32 < PaulFertser> CH32V003 instead?
2023-12-22T11:39:02 < zyp> how's the tool situation for that now?
2023-12-22T11:40:58 < PaulFertser> No idea tbh
2023-12-22T11:41:36 < zyp> so far my impression of wch is that they've got interesting parts with weird debug interfaces
2023-12-22T11:50:36 < machinehum> Someone reached out to me
2023-12-22T11:50:52 < machinehum> Their engineer has taken like 16 months and not produced a board
2023-12-22T11:51:44 < machinehum> First line of my email "Your guy gets the award for most poorly organized, incomprehensible project folder structure I've ever seen."
2023-12-22T11:51:48 < ventYl> that's actually a good situation, with no board, it takes zero costs to drop the idea of using 8051 in year 2023
2023-12-22T11:51:57 < machinehum> lol
2023-12-22T11:52:51 < ventYl> I assume, that for new design, *literally* *everything* will be better than 8051, 80551 or any available equivalent
2023-12-22T11:53:03 < ventYl> probably except of PIC
2023-12-22T11:58:19 < machinehum> He's got a TH PIC8 in here as well actually
2023-12-22T11:58:30 < machinehum> 3MCU's, took a masterclass from myself.
2023-12-22T12:01:11 < machinehum> RTL8723, classic
2023-12-22T12:05:43 < ventYl> so if you throw them all out into trash, you can replace them with one decent G4 and even save space, costs and have spare flash capacity
2023-12-22T12:28:20 < ventYl> machinehum: in fact I wonder you even consider doing anything with 8051. I have to fix bug in one of my AVR devices and I am deferring it as late as possible
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2023-12-22T13:20:44 < machinehum> ventYl: I know AVR o:
2023-12-22T13:21:32 < machinehum> I enjoy downloading the small (15GB) visual studio to program my AVR chips
2023-12-22T13:21:38 < machinehum> I run it in wine
2023-12-22T13:25:46 < ventYl> i hate it as most of cheap ones have no means of connecting the debugger
2023-12-22T13:29:56 < karlp> these t210 soldering stations are gettting cheap now.  looks like old t12 and hakko tips are going to finally dissappear
2023-12-22T13:30:22 < karlp> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006113232238.html down to 31€
2023-12-22T13:35:48 < machinehum> karlp: Are they decent?
2023-12-22T13:36:02 < karlp> no idea, I'v egot a aixun t3b which is _excellent_ 
2023-12-22T13:36:06 < karlp> these look like cheaper clones
2023-12-22T13:36:22 < karlp> but using those tips after an old hakko or even a recent weller is night and day.
2023-12-22T13:36:34 < karlp> I've never had the luxury of a genuine jbc or anything.
2023-12-22T13:36:53 < karlp> I just drove home to get my own hot air station because work doesn't have one....
2023-12-22T13:37:27 < machinehum> What's so special about the tips?
2023-12-22T13:37:38 < karlp> the're the same jbc cartridges 
2023-12-22T13:37:46 < karlp> they get hot INSTANTLY
2023-12-22T13:37:58 < karlp> pick up iron, -> hot ready to go.
2023-12-22T13:38:35 < karlp> and they just _keep giving heat_ you don't have to worry about cooling hte tip down doing anything, you just.... go
2023-12-22T13:39:49 < machinehum> coo
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2023-12-22T13:48:28 < karlp> neat: -Os is bigger than -O1, O2, and O3: https://godbolt.org/z/76EojhrEs
2023-12-22T14:15:49 < zyp> 42B for -O1, 44B for -Os, 48B for -O2 and -O3
2023-12-22T14:16:04 < zyp> -Os has one instruction more than the others, but fewer thumb2 instructions
2023-12-22T14:28:59 < jpa-> just do   __builtin_bswap64
2023-12-22T14:29:12 < jpa-> https://godbolt.org/z/qPfT7h7dh
2023-12-22T14:48:34 < karlp> heh. I love it.
2023-12-22T14:51:01 < karlp> (I'm actually just deleting this code outright, but got distracted by curiousity over whetehr gcc would recognize the 64bit swap or not.
2023-12-22T14:54:12 < karlp> I love finding #if # else #endifs where you're obviously not _actually_ allowed to use the other path.
2023-12-22T14:54:22 < karlp> like, it has a menuconfig option and everythign, but... it doesn't even compile :)
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2023-12-22T16:02:24 < fenugrec> I ~almost used a 'modern' 8051 to port some old mcs48 firmware, since the ISA is very similar. It was the only way to get a 5V part that runs at really high clocks. So yeah, extremely niche usecase, qty 1 project that got ditched
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2023-12-22T16:21:57 < karlp> how fast did you need? https://eu.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Qorvo/PAC5222QM?qs=byeeYqUIh0OWKP9KFyOszw%3D%3D is 50Mhz, there's probably others in that line that are higher.
2023-12-22T16:22:08 < karlp> iirc toshiba cortex's are 5V as well, and some renesas.
2023-12-22T16:23:34 < fenugrec> dafuq is qorvo
2023-12-22T16:24:00 < karlp> pac5524 is a 150Mhz m4f...
2023-12-22T16:24:34 < fenugrec> depending on ISA, I'd have to dig out my notes but on CM0 / CM4 I needed 120+ MHz
2023-12-22T16:24:40 < karlp> qorvo is one of the rebranding of bits of active semi, bits of broadcom, bits of...  fuck knows.
2023-12-22T16:24:49 < fenugrec> okok. never heard ofem
2023-12-22T16:25:27 < karlp> some of them dont' have higih voltage pins though, it's a bit of a mess,
2023-12-22T16:25:36 < karlp> but they have some with 5V ios, as well as the high voltage motor shit
2023-12-22T16:27:14 < fenugrec> right - some of the CM* parts I had looked at had "FT" pins but all over the place, I needed at least two banks of 8 consecutive GPIO. I won't say I looked at everything, but I looked at a lot of ICs
2023-12-22T16:28:29 < karlp> right, some of these renesas ones thatcan run off 5V to the MCU, still only have... 9/46 ios that are 5V tolerant.
2023-12-22T16:28:32 < karlp> fucking dodgy marketing.
2023-12-22T16:29:46 < karlp> hrm, this might actually be "5V tolerante when you're not running form 5V"
2023-12-22T16:29:54 < karlp> and if you run it all from 5V then it's all "normal"
2023-12-22T16:31:04 < karlp> right, 5V pins can go from 0..6.5V.  non-5v pins can go from 0..AVCC+0.3, and AVCC can go from 0..6.5...
2023-12-22T16:31:13 < karlp> so. all the pins are 5V pins if you run at 5V
2023-12-22T16:31:29 < fenugrec> interesting
2023-12-22T16:32:30 < karlp> so, RA6T2 is 240Mhz M33 :)
2023-12-22T16:32:32 < karlp> should be enough...
2023-12-22T16:33:01 < fenugrec> project is shelved (possibly for good) but I'll add that to my notes, thanks for the tip
2023-12-22T16:33:08 < karlp> still, jmust have been quite an epic at the time, to need this much CPU to replace it :)
2023-12-22T16:35:24 < fenugrec> not even, but emulating the fw on a very different arch like CM, has a lot of overhead
2023-12-22T16:43:50 < karlp> oh, you were just straight going to emulate it, not just re-implement it?
2023-12-22T16:44:57 < karlp> fuck yes, mnaged to get the nxp crc unit to match the online crc comparison first go...
2023-12-22T16:45:15 < karlp> (lego batman first go, I kinda forgot to you know, clock the peripheral first)
2023-12-22T16:45:40 < fenugrec> right - with a 8051, it would be a "simple" port, but otherwise would be a partial emulation as I progressively re-implemented some of the functionality
2023-12-22T17:09:02 < karlp> feck, 3pm already
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2023-12-22T19:28:38 < sauce> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNMuGxuJuv0 musics
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2023-12-22T20:22:22 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/bhi360.png   somehow these gyro sensitivity specs don't make any sense to me
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2023-12-22T21:10:16 < fenugrec> jpa- how's that
2023-12-22T21:15:01 < fenugrec> at larger ranges (2000deg/s), output value increases by ~16.384 for every deg/s ? weird way of writing it but I've seen similar; more intuitive to me would be "resolution @ FS2000 : 0.061 deg/s"
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2023-12-22T21:56:02 < jpa-> fenugrec: oh meh, somehow i kept reading "16.384" as "16 384"
2023-12-22T21:56:25 < jpa-> i guess i have seen those values way too often as integers rather than fractionals :)
2023-12-22T21:57:52 < jpa-> thanks :)
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2023-12-22T22:25:35 < Laurenceb_> rip hyperlol
2023-12-22T22:34:58 < catphish> aww teh hyperloop failed
2023-12-22T22:38:47 < jadew> How much did it lose?
2023-12-22T22:42:13 < Laurenceb_> all bransons remaining cash probably lol
2023-12-22T22:46:14 < Laurenceb_> >Hyperloop failed because Elon was distracted with Twitter, wokeness, and harem breeding duties
2023-12-22T22:46:25 < Laurenceb_> keeek edgelords deliver
2023-12-22T22:47:52 < Laurenceb_> > We need to create Elon clones to manage every Elon task, then almost anything will be possible
2023-12-22T22:47:55 < Laurenceb_> orbital sides
2023-12-22T22:50:27 < Laurenceb_> > We can drug people then use AI generated VR to make them think they have travelled on the hyperloop even if it isnt actually real. This will be as good as the real thing
2023-12-22T22:53:28 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FGB5gLOLXEAAaRKg.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
--- Day changed la joulu 23 2023
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2023-12-23T00:30:43 < upgrdman> wtf, why is HP so fucking retarded. got a new hp color laser printer... if i print a file that has an apostrophe in the FILENAME, the print job fails with "Error" ... if i remove the ' the file prints perfectly.
2023-12-23T00:32:30 < upgrdman> and yes, i checked for firmware and driver updates
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2023-12-23T02:55:05 < Laurenceb_> lolll the hyperfail comment
2023-12-23T02:55:18 < Laurenceb_> >AI will kill us soon anyway, who cares about hyperloop
2023-12-23T03:16:39 < Laurenceb_> lol https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/musk-s-hyperloop-one-to-shut-down-as-it-fails-to-make-revolutionary-transport/ar-AA1lTYLf
2023-12-23T03:16:43 < Laurenceb_> >Musks
2023-12-23T03:17:14 < Laurenceb_> keeeekkk the msm is piling in https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/elon-musk-hyperloop-tesla-1234934812/
2023-12-23T03:17:24 < Laurenceb_> epic fail it has nothing to do with Musk
2023-12-23T03:20:03 < nomorekaki> but how is the hypertrain?
2023-12-23T03:28:58 < Laurenceb_> coming along
2023-12-23T03:41:44 < nomorekaki> did you do nano graphene stator cooling
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2023-12-23T03:57:30 < fenugrec> is there such a thing as a small-scale 3D positioning system that works like a GPS constellation ? e.g. place 4+ static transmitters in a room, VCTXO in each hopefully "good enough", PLL them all together (thankfully no doppler effect), transmit PRBS, a bit of SDR magic in the receiver, and boom - realtime 3D positioning
2023-12-23T03:59:20 < fenugrec> I guess one of the many problems is at close ranges, transmitters can no longer be considered point sources
2023-12-23T03:59:21 < nomorekaki> you need transmitters being static?
2023-12-23T04:00:04 < fenugrec> well it simplifies the problem - positions may be arbitrary but fixed
2023-12-23T04:00:27 < nomorekaki> what are the constraints exactly?
2023-12-23T04:00:41 < nomorekaki> size, price?
2023-12-23T04:01:26 < fenugrec> I'm just thinking aloud. Setup this thing in your workshop / room, affordable for Typical Human, then you have a manipulator-sized thing that you can tack sensors on for various industrial or measurement tasks
2023-12-23T04:01:29 < nomorekaki> em-band, power use?
2023-12-23T04:01:42 < fenugrec> so, I rule out cesium clocks in each 'station'
2023-12-23T04:02:51 < nomorekaki> resolution, precision?
2023-12-23T04:02:53 < fenugrec> I know there are optical / machine vision implementations of this for VR stuff. Wondering about a radio-based approach
2023-12-23T04:03:11 < fenugrec> nomorekaki I don't know, what do you have in mind to be asking such precise questions : ))
2023-12-23T04:03:20 < nomorekaki> nothing
2023-12-23T04:03:30 < zyp> I believe BLE can do ToF ranging, so if that's accurate enough you could probably just set up multiple and triangulate
2023-12-23T04:03:31 < fenugrec> 1mm res would be awesome.
2023-12-23T04:05:57 < fenugrec> so a commercial (civilian) surveying GPS radio, when it processes carrier phase (and assuming you disambiguate the integer 'number of cycles', can be "accurate to a few mm in realtime". I wonder if BLE ToF would be in that order of magnitude, interesting thought
2023-12-23T04:06:27 < fenugrec> 3mm = 10ps , so probably not
2023-12-23T04:06:51 < nomorekaki> one commercial solution is 1-5% accuracy
2023-12-23T04:06:56 < fenugrec> which ?
2023-12-23T04:07:50 < nomorekaki> https://www.mokoblue.com/bluetooth-beacon/tof-sensor-beacon/
2023-12-23T04:08:09 < zyp> UWB RTLS is apparently also a thing
2023-12-23T04:10:32 < fenugrec> "the location of UWB signals can be determined with an accuracy of less than 50 centimeters (with optimal conditions and deployment"
2023-12-23T04:10:46 < fenugrec> still cool
2023-12-23T04:11:05 < fenugrec> I wonder what contributes to the 1-5% estimate for the BLE gadget
2023-12-23T04:11:14 < zyp> marketing
2023-12-23T04:11:45 < fenugrec> I mean, what technical obstacles to improving that accuracy x10
2023-12-23T04:13:23 < fenugrec> heh UWB page conveniently doesn't mention BLE ToF
2023-12-23T04:15:18 < nomorekaki> how about creating interference patterns in the volume with transmitters
2023-12-23T04:19:37 < fenugrec> might not be viable with irregular reflections from walls/objects ? 
2023-12-23T04:20:39 < nomorekaki> idk
2023-12-23T04:28:13 < nomorekaki> could it be as simple as running coax 2 antennas one being longer coax then interference pattern can be manipulated with adjustments to frequency
2023-12-23T04:28:39 < fenugrec> hmm
2023-12-23T04:28:58 < nomorekaki> to somehow pinpoint the receiver with those adjustments to pattern
2023-12-23T04:29:14 < nomorekaki>  /brainstorming
2023-12-23T04:29:24 < fenugrec> yes, measurements at multiple frequencies might produce a solvable matrix
2023-12-23T04:29:47 < fenugrec> laser EDM works a bit like that, modulate at 2-3 different frequencies, only one distance solves the system
2023-12-23T04:30:57 < nomorekaki> nice to learn
2023-12-23T05:25:23 < fenugrec> uptime
2023-12-23T05:25:38 < fenugrec> oops wrong console
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2023-12-23T08:27:29 < jadew> fenugrec, I've considered that in the past, and it should work, but it depends on the application. There's a reason why consoles use infrared beacons instead.
2023-12-23T08:28:17 < jadew> I think video positioning would work a lot better - like they have on the Oculus for example.
2023-12-23T08:28:45 < jpa-> in indoor environments reflections will probably be a problem
2023-12-23T08:29:08 < jadew> jpa-, not necessarily, they should be much lower in amplitude than the source signal.
2023-12-23T08:30:35 < jpa-> fenugrec: there is also DWM1000 ultra-wideband RF ToF stuff; i have used it, but it is only about +- 10 cm accuracy
2023-12-23T08:31:35 < jpa-> jadew: yeah, but you need the chirp/pulse to be short enough that the lower amplitude reflection does not alter the measured phase of the carrier
2023-12-23T08:32:34 < jpa-> because adding even attenuated signal at same frequency can easily alter the carrier phase by a few percent, which is already a lot of mm
2023-12-23T08:33:05 < jpa-> and measuring carrier phase gets more difficult and inaccurate when you need to do it on short pulses
2023-12-23T08:33:50 < jadew> It doesn't have to be short, you can continuously stream that stuff :)
2023-12-23T08:34:18 < jpa-> and then the reflection is also continuous, and adds continuous bias to your carrier phase measurement
2023-12-23T08:34:25 < jadew> Does the DWM1000 work with multiple beacons?
2023-12-23T08:34:34 < jpa-> yeah, it can even do mesh
2023-12-23T08:40:12 < jadew> Relevant app note: https://www.qorvo.com/products/d/da008440
2023-12-23T08:41:40 < jadew> Yeah, indoors it gets tricky. They found multiple edge cases where it is.
2023-12-23T08:44:28 < jpa-> the project i was involved in was tracking people that move among vehicles in a factory yard, for the purpose of alerting drivers; it kind-of worked but didn't achieve the reliability they would have needed for it to be an effective safety system
2023-12-23T08:44:51 < jpa-> way too easy to be positioned so as to shade the antenna, and high frequency signals don't pass through humans
2023-12-23T08:45:37 < jadew> Did you find an alternative solution?
2023-12-23T08:46:23 < jpa-> not me, i left that consulting company some time later
2023-12-23T08:46:44 < jpa-> it was an initial feasibility study, it may be that the client later tried some different approach
2023-12-23T08:47:44 < jpa-> earlier there was a quite similar application where stereo cameras & IR light were used to detect distance to reflective safety vests - it worked better, but i'm not sure if it ever progressed beyond the proof-of-concept
2023-12-23T08:48:13 < jpa-> nowadays LIDAR might detect reflective materials quite well
2023-12-23T08:48:40 < jpa-> (the main problem with cameras was getting mud and dust on them)
2023-12-23T08:49:46 < jpa-> (later i have seen somewhere a design with constant air stream for keeping dust away from camera lenses)
2023-12-23T08:52:08 < jadew> For what you're describing, I would have used ceiling mounted cameras and AI.
2023-12-23T08:53:07 < jpa-> no ceiling, but yeah, they may have considered tower mounted cameras
2023-12-23T08:54:05 < jpa-> those feasibility studies are always a bit limiting in that the customer wants research on one particular approach, whether it will work or not; and usually you don't get much info on what other approaches are being tried
2023-12-23T08:58:31 < jadew> What was the necessary accuracy for this?
2023-12-23T09:00:06 < jadew> If it was in the open, maybe even GPS would have worked.
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2023-12-23T09:01:42 < jadew> I guess that's what the DWM1000 was - was it not possible to position the beacons on poles, like you suggested?
2023-12-23T09:02:08 < jadew> With enough beacons and a base accuracy of 10cm, surely a bit of degradation of the accuracy wouldn't have been that big of a deal, no?
2023-12-23T09:21:16 < jpa-> the issue was that occassionally it lost the signal completely
2023-12-23T09:21:26 < jpa-> accuracy was fine
2023-12-23T09:22:04 < jpa-> (that application would have been fine with 1 meter accuracy - i don't know if GPS was considered)
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2023-12-23T13:15:39 < veverak> hmmm, changing MCU is indeed problematic
2023-12-23T13:16:43 < veverak> on previous chip my timer for system time run on 32bit timer, and I had it on microseconds
2023-12-23T13:16:59 < veverak> the new MCU does not have free 32bit timer for that... or I have to find a way to share it with something
2023-12-23T13:35:57 < qyx> just gate two
2023-12-23T13:36:07 < qyx> master/slave mode
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2023-12-23T15:12:43 < zyp> jpa-, this is pretty interesting stuff: https://www.ti.com/lit/an/sprt703/sprt703.pdf
2023-12-23T15:13:03 < zyp> especially 4.3.1 where they work out the gains of the torque PI controller, based on the motor R and L
2023-12-23T15:13:22 < zyp> how do I work out those? :)
2023-12-23T15:15:24 < zyp> I've got https://bin.jvnv.net/file/gGVo1.png and https://bin.jvnv.net/file/woVPg.png which specs Ra, but not L, can I work it out somehow?
2023-12-23T15:16:33 < fenugrec> jadew, jpa- I agree measuring phase of a continuous signal in an indoor env would be difficult with all the unpredictable reflections
2023-12-23T15:19:27 < fenugrec> it would be probably unlock all the time
2023-12-23T15:38:54 < fenugrec> but then that can be worked around just how GPS does it with multiple frequencies
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2023-12-23T15:55:22 < fenugrec> greatly increases complexity and cost too
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2023-12-23T16:09:44 < Laurenceb_> has anyone ever tried connecting two ethernet PHYs back to back?
2023-12-23T16:10:06 < Laurenceb_> seems like it should work with micrel PHYs - some others trim off lots of preamble
2023-12-23T16:12:09 < zyp> I don't think the mac would be very happy if they trim the preamble
2023-12-23T16:12:58 < Laurenceb_> hmm maybe I misread the datasheet
2023-12-23T16:13:12 < Laurenceb_> surely the preamble length is allowed to be reduced by the PHY?
2023-12-23T16:14:32 < Laurenceb_> I'm thinking of making something like ethercat but running normal ethernet over it
2023-12-23T16:15:12 < zyp> in what sense? I'm doing something similar
2023-12-23T16:16:24 < zyp> for the robot stuff I'm working on, I'm doing an ethercat-like protocol where I've got a bunch of FPGAs chained and processing a single frame as it passes through
2023-12-23T16:16:33 < zyp> and I'm planning to also add async packet tunnelling to it
2023-12-23T16:16:54 < zyp> so I can send async stuff in the idle time between sync updates
2023-12-23T16:17:53 < Laurenceb_> hmm interesting - I was wanting to run raw ethernet or ipv4 packets to individual devices
2023-12-23T16:18:15 < Laurenceb_> looks like micrel PHYs actually say they can be connected back to back, but clocking info is unclear
2023-12-23T16:18:30 < Laurenceb_> https://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/aemDocuments/documents/OTH/ProductDocuments/DataSheets/KSZ8051MNL-RNL-10BASE-T-100BASE-TX-Automotive-Physical-Layer-Transceiver-DS00002310B.pdf
2023-12-23T16:19:02 < Laurenceb_> page 7 says TXC becomes an input in back to back mode, but thats not described in the back to back mode section
2023-12-23T16:20:04 < zyp> why would you want to connect PHYs back to back without anything in between? gonna tee off only one of the paths for receive only?
2023-12-23T16:22:14 < Laurenceb_> yes
2023-12-23T16:23:17 < Laurenceb_> is the rx clock always running or is RXC only clocked when data is being received?
2023-12-23T16:23:42 < zyp> which *MII standard are you looking at?
2023-12-23T16:24:06 < zyp> you linked to a 100Mb/s PHY, which suggests RMII
2023-12-23T16:24:23 < zyp> RMII doesn't have RXC, RMII has a continous shared 50 MHz REF_CLK
2023-12-23T16:24:43 < jpa-> zyp: often motors don't spec inductance for some reason, though it can be measured
2023-12-23T16:24:57 < Laurenceb_> I was thinking of using MII, but maybe RMII could work
2023-12-23T16:25:07 < zyp> the two RMII datapaths are RXD0, RXD1, CRS_DV and TXD0, TXD1, TX_EN
2023-12-23T16:25:36 < zyp> and I think you can more or less just wire them back to back
2023-12-23T16:26:02 < zyp> might be some minor corner cases where CRS_DV and TX_EN behave slightly differently
2023-12-23T16:26:22 < Laurenceb_> isnt CRS_DV multiplexed?
2023-12-23T16:28:31 < jpa-> zyp: if your control loop has as much lag as it would appear from the 4 kHz DTC result, that formula won't directly work and you might as well just tune PID manually
2023-12-23T16:29:07 < zyp> jpa-, maybe
2023-12-23T16:29:30 < zyp> can I expect to use the same gains for both d and q controllers?
2023-12-23T16:30:37 < jpa-> i have done so
2023-12-23T16:31:23 < Laurenceb_> hmm looks like the Micrel PHYs dont multiplex the CRS_DV signals in the normal way, at least not in back to back mode
2023-12-23T16:32:02 < jpa-> generally the PID controller for d/q voltage is not that critical - it is a good idea to put a feedforward term based on the coil resistance
2023-12-23T16:33:19 < jpa-> (oh, and include current motor speed * backemf_constant in the feedforward too)
2023-12-23T16:33:27 < zyp> what would be a good way to tune it? I read something about tuning bandwidth by leaving at 0 setpoint, turning it by hand and seeing how it respons; if it provides resistance it needs to be turned one way and if it whines it needs to be turned the other way
2023-12-23T16:34:21 < jpa-> sounds reasonable; i have tuned by dumping out the values by SWO and looking at graph how much it oscillates after step changes
2023-12-23T16:35:27 < zyp> the current? can I just see it with the scope current clamps?
2023-12-23T16:36:17 < jpa-> kind-of, but you'd really want to see it in d/q coordinates and not in phase coordinates
2023-12-23T16:37:34 < zyp> hmm, I guess I can't tune this sensibly with the motor stalled
2023-12-23T16:38:23 < jpa-> the PID part you probably can tune that way, as long as you have roughly correct backemf feedforward term to account for the rotation speed
2023-12-23T16:38:57 < zyp> I also understand having a D term is not really useful here
2023-12-23T16:39:11 < jpa-> there will be mechanical inertia also, but usually that is in much lower frequency and not an issue for the PID that controls phase PWM duty cycles
2023-12-23T16:40:07 < jpa-> with fast feedback, PI control is enough, but if you have a lot of lowpass in your current measurement, the D term can be used to compensate for that
2023-12-23T16:40:26 < jpa-> allowing higher loop bandwidth without oscillation
2023-12-23T16:43:00 < jbo> moin
2023-12-23T16:43:10 < jpa-> jbo: what did you get me for xmas?
2023-12-23T16:43:32 < jbo> jpa-, nothing we can discuss in public :*
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2023-12-23T16:44:02 < zyp> it's a bit hassle to do all this in HDL, I've almost considered making a microcoded multiplier block
2023-12-23T16:44:08 < zyp> but that also sounds like hassle :p
2023-12-23T16:44:43 < jpa-> use a cpu ;)
2023-12-23T16:45:13 < jpa-> it sounds like you won't benefit much from running the PID loop faster than about 10 kHz
2023-12-23T16:45:39 < zyp> indeed, I'm planning to run it at the encoder data rate, which is also at that order of magnitude
2023-12-23T16:46:10 < zyp> IIRC nominally 8 kHz, but I think people have experimented with pushing it up to 12
2023-12-23T16:47:24 < jpa-> for PID tuning, you don't necessarily need to use a multiplier block; usually 2 or 3 bits of mantissa and an adjustable shifter is enough for each term
2023-12-23T16:47:35 < zyp> and yeah, I could just stick in a risc-v softcpu, but I don't really want to
2023-12-23T16:48:19 < zyp> I mean, I already have one, only for configuring the ethernet PHYs, but that doesn't count :p
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2023-12-23T17:15:27 < mawk> most of the zoning junkies recognize me when I pass behind Gare du Nord
2023-12-23T17:15:31 < mawk> I think that's a bad sign
2023-12-23T17:16:10 < mawk> one of them, Momo, was fighting with a bum, throwing cans of shitty beer
2023-12-23T17:16:21 < mawk> but they're all named Momo anyway so it's not very specific 
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2023-12-23T17:16:49 < mawk> when your religion says you name your first born son Mohammed you end up with a ton of Momos
2023-12-23T17:29:45 < Steffanx> And mawk was like: let's celebrate xmas there
2023-12-23T17:30:52 < mawk> I don't think they celebrate Christmas 
2023-12-23T17:30:59 < mawk> well they're not bad people 
2023-12-23T17:31:06 < mawk> very polite
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2023-12-23T17:31:19 < Steffanx> no, they're not. They are nice to a good customer.
2023-12-23T17:31:36 < mawk> I said happy holidays to Momo to take into account his fervent devotion (which I can't doubt) to Islam 
2023-12-23T17:31:48 < mawk> they can be both
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2023-12-23T19:09:38 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.net/DramaAlert/status/1738002449632547169
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2023-12-23T20:25:21 < karlp> AoA/AoD with bt 5+ shoudl be pretty good for you fenugrec, not the ToF stuff. that's what it's sold for, still only talks about 50cm or so thugh...
2023-12-23T20:33:11 < jpa-> doesn't sound 1mm resolution to me
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2023-12-23T21:16:12 < octorian> So this is interesting... On this STM32F411 thing I'm working on, a 12MHz SPI signal was radiating (its a board-to-board connection).  The GPIO pin speed was set to "medium".  The scope showed a very small overshoot (not really a spike).  I changed its speed to "low", which the headers and datasheet comments seem to imply won't work, and it works fine.  (the measured rise times for both "medium" and "low" were already a lot faster than in the 
2023-12-23T21:16:12 < octorian> datasheet notional cases, it seemed)
2023-12-23T21:17:01 < octorian> (and doing another EMC scan now, but some harmonics of that frequency went from "concerning spike" to "irrelevant low-level background noise".)
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2023-12-23T21:20:47 < nomorekaki> mawk: they recognize one of their own?
2023-12-23T21:21:44 < nomorekaki> what is zoning junkie?
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2023-12-23T21:32:05 < qyx> what 1mm resolution using bt5
2023-12-23T21:32:11 < qyx> jpa-: ^
2023-12-23T21:38:30 < mawk> nomorekaki (Intransitif) (Argot) (Par extension) Flâner, errer, se déplacer sans but précis.
2023-12-23T21:50:20 < Steffanx> Je ne parle pas francais.
2023-12-23T21:50:34 < Steffanx> ç
2023-12-23T22:04:43 < qyx> ja ne
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2023-12-23T22:42:51 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FF_fjpMDWYAAj4ZK.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
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2023-12-23T23:51:01 < nomorekaki> Laurenceb_
2023-12-23T23:51:12 < nomorekaki> .did you graphene the stator?
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--- Day changed su joulu 24 2023
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2023-12-24T04:38:20 < fenugrec> octorian interesting. Did you have series termination resistors on your SPI signals ?
2023-12-24T04:38:52 < fenugrec> the freq guidelines in the DS are guidelines IIRC, dunno what capacitance they assume
2023-12-24T04:38:53 < octorian> fenugrec, no, I don't. Was considering adding them, but it seems like I don't need to.
2023-12-24T04:39:35 < octorian> Datasheet does mention what capacitance they assume, but I don't know the actual capacitance of the system.
2023-12-24T04:40:11 < fenugrec> as long as it works with some decent margin
2023-12-24T04:40:38 < octorian> The thing is, there really wasn't any "ringing".  Just a small curved overshoot.  (if I cranked that setting to an even higher value, then I definitely would see ringing on the scope)
2023-12-24T04:41:04 < octorian> But even at "low", I was getting rise-times in the single-digit nanosecond range.
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2023-12-24T08:05:40 < jpa-> qyx: 1mm was what fenugrec wanted
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2023-12-24T11:58:53 < qyx> I want that too
2023-12-24T12:00:21 < qyx> 50 cm range is fine as long as it has sub-1 mm resolution and a reasonable 1-2 mm accuracy
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2023-12-24T15:51:05 < jpa-> qyx: at that point you could just have transmitter at the moving object and phase tracking of the received signal at 3+ rx antennas; just wire them all to single receiver so synchronization is easy
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2023-12-24T19:26:13 < qyx> jpa-: yea but my intention was to make things simple
2023-12-24T19:26:41 < jpa-> in that case, cameras :)
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2023-12-24T20:59:53 < mawk> why make things simple when you can make them complicated
2023-12-24T21:00:05 < mawk> think forward
2023-12-24T21:00:25 < mawk> you need a complicated product so you work on it a long time and bill all the hours
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2023-12-24T21:55:05 < jadew> qyx, 1mm resolution with radio is going to be very difficult, even if you have an ideal environment
2023-12-24T21:57:25 < fenugrec> agreed
2023-12-24T22:00:36 < qyx> jadew: 1 mm and even less works reliably even in non ideal conditions and from LEO
2023-12-24T22:00:43 < qyx> (insar)
2023-12-24T22:00:51 < BrainDamage> low earth orbit?
2023-12-24T22:01:14 < qyx> isn't insar leo?
2023-12-24T22:01:14 < BrainDamage> for 1mm res you really want ultrasonic
2023-12-24T22:02:13 < BrainDamage> I am akronym impaired, I really don't know what you mean with leo
2023-12-24T22:02:34 < jadew> This maybe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interferometric_synthetic-aperture_radar
2023-12-24T22:02:40 < qyx> low earth orbit
2023-12-24T22:02:58 < jadew> What frequency does that work on?
2023-12-24T22:03:00 < qyx> insar is a long proven technology used in practice
2023-12-24T22:03:19 < qyx> sub microwave afaik
2023-12-24T22:03:23 < qyx> I don't remember
2023-12-24T22:03:46 < fenugrec> https://www.usgs.gov/centers/land-subsidence-in-california/science/interferometric-synthetic-aperture-radar-insar
2023-12-24T22:04:02 < BrainDamage> you need an extremely stable frequency standard for that
2023-12-24T22:04:06 < fenugrec> I wouldn't say it's a trivial implementation
2023-12-24T22:04:19 < qyx> what, i sar?
2023-12-24T22:04:20 < fenugrec> cool though
2023-12-24T22:04:32 < qyx> it works with fully passive reflectors
2023-12-24T22:04:48 < qyx> you can make one
2023-12-24T22:04:57 < qyx> and download data periodically for free
2023-12-24T22:05:13 < qyx> they are accessible, at least from some eu satellites
2023-12-24T22:05:45 < BrainDamage> oh sorry, I thought you wanted this indoors
2023-12-24T22:05:55 < qyx> that's the catch :)
2023-12-24T22:05:56 < fenugrec> BD: yes, I was originally thinking of indoors
2023-12-24T22:06:01 < qyx> yes I want
2023-12-24T22:06:13 < BrainDamage> ... then you need the atomic clock
2023-12-24T22:06:14 < qyx> thant's the reason I can't actually use a satellite
2023-12-24T22:06:32 < jadew> Indoors, probably ultrasonic like BrainDamage suggested, or camera like jpa- said.
2023-12-24T22:06:36 < qyx> why? it is a simple interferometry
2023-12-24T22:07:18 < BrainDamage> you're trying to measure 1mm, now calculate what angle of a sine corresponds to that at any "usable" frequency
2023-12-24T22:07:23 < qyx> I would say it is doable with a low cost freq synth, mixer or two and a phase detector
2023-12-24T22:07:33 < BrainDamage> and you'll quickly find that you'll need very good phase stability
2023-12-24T22:07:41 < qyx> wut
2023-12-24T22:08:28 < qyx> 2.4 GHz is 12 cm or so?
2023-12-24T22:08:54 < jadew> qyx, I need to calibrate my VNA to 20 GHz in order to do time domain analysis that tells me where the impedance mismatch is with mms of accuracy.
2023-12-24T22:08:56 < qyx> so 1 mm is 3°
2023-12-24T22:09:29 < jadew> Anything lower than that, I can don't know which component is causing things, and even like that, it's a guess work.
2023-12-24T22:10:05 < BrainDamage> nvm, for some reason I had one extra 0, so it was 0.3°
2023-12-24T22:11:39 < jadew> You can get 1mm resolution, but I don't think it will be reliable...
2023-12-24T22:14:25 < BrainDamage> component tolerances and thermal drifts will be annoying
2023-12-24T22:17:20 < jadew> Depending on the application, short term stability could be enough.
2023-12-24T22:20:11 < jadew> You'd need to synchronize the receivers, recover the carrier from the movable device, and ignore frequency shift that's not caused by movement.
2023-12-24T22:20:48 < fenugrec> for sure mm-anything is difficult. The GPS L1/L2 carriers are 1.2-1.6GHz and phase measurement is doable down to a few mm, but multipath quickly ruins that, although multi-freq and multi-constellation receivers are getting better
2023-12-24T22:20:58 < jadew> Sorry, ignore frequency shift that's caused by the movement.
2023-12-24T22:21:00 < fenugrec> indoors would be a nightmare for reflections
2023-12-24T22:21:45 < BrainDamage> gps clocks are also accurate to parts per billion
2023-12-24T22:22:09 < jadew> I would like to see it done. We could then have minority report type mice.
2023-12-24T22:22:24 < BrainDamage> but most of the inaccuracy that cannot be easily recovered in gps is due to atmospheric transmission
2023-12-24T22:22:29 < jadew> Right GPS clocks are the most accurate you can get.
2023-12-24T22:22:30 < fenugrec> yes, cesium-based
2023-12-24T22:22:57 < BrainDamage> ie atmospheric dielectric's constant isn't costant, but it drifts locally and temporally
2023-12-24T22:23:05 < fenugrec> but with doppler and relativity effects there's some extra work that a ground-based solution wouldn't need
2023-12-24T22:23:46 < BrainDamage> fortunately traveling few m indoors vs 200km of atmopsphere helps with that
2023-12-24T22:25:14 < qyx> fenugrec: but we are talking about less than 1 m of range
2023-12-24T22:25:28 < jadew> I'm off to wrap presents. But I think that if it was possible it was already done, so maybe some googling is in order? I wasn't aware of the DIY GPS solution from Qorvo - maybe there's something better out there?
2023-12-24T22:26:20 < jadew> s/. B/, b/
2023-12-24T22:26:55 < fenugrec> qyx well I was in the "room-size" range
2023-12-24T22:28:24 < fenugrec> another challenge like I mentioned yesterday, antennas are really not a 'point source' anymore at that distance unless going to multi-GHz freqs
2023-12-24T22:29:42 < BrainDamage> that's not a problem, you _can_ have chip antennas at 2.4GHz that are few mm in size, you just need to accept high-ish losses
2023-12-24T22:30:03 < BrainDamage> so the antenna will have 20-30dB loss, which for m range is fine
2023-12-24T22:30:05 < fenugrec> at those 'few mm' in size, I would expect the "phase center" to vary a lot depending on angle ?
2023-12-24T22:30:41 < BrainDamage> it can be characterized beforehand
2023-12-24T22:30:47 < fenugrec> GPS ants go to great effort to optimize APC stability, and it's still bulky expensive stuff
2023-12-24T22:31:14 < BrainDamage> esp if you have more than one
2023-12-24T22:31:27 < fenugrec> I think it'd be a cool project to try. I just don't have the DSP / radio background for that, not even close
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2023-12-24T22:38:30 < qyx> me neither
2023-12-24T22:38:49 < qyx> at least not the wanted level
2023-12-24T23:32:20 < jadew> I remember reading about a wide band point antenna, but was for reception only.
2023-12-24T23:32:37 < jadew> It was good from DC to 100 GHz.
2023-12-24T23:32:54 < jadew> Maybe in a few years we'll learn about one that can transmit too.
2023-12-24T23:34:51 < jadew> There are many technical challenges here, the locking and following as the carrier drifts seem quite complex to me, but I'm sure it can be done if you have multiple receivers.
2023-12-24T23:40:22 < jadew> I can't find the article about the antenna - does anyone else know what I'm talking about?
2023-12-24T23:41:25 < jadew> It's been a few years since I read the article, but I think they were using some sort of suspended particle, that was laser cooled or something.
2023-12-24T23:42:05 < jadew> I remember feeling like I'm doing something wrong for simply finding about that technology.
2023-12-24T23:49:15 < jadew> https://www.army.mil/article/233809/army_scientists_create_innovative_quantum_sensor
2023-12-24T23:49:38 < jadew> Doesn't say anything about a laser - not sure where I got that from, but I'm sure there's one in there :)
2023-12-24T23:51:07 < jadew> Oh, they're not cooling them, they're heating them up?
2023-12-24T23:52:14 < fenugrec> heh "sensors can be very small and virtually undetectable", except for the 11 racks of special gear
2023-12-24T23:53:21 < jadew> They probably have it in tooth size by now.
2023-12-24T23:54:20 < IanW_> qxy: For measuring distance, look up Doppler radar moduals, 10 or 24GHz, if you DC couple the IF, and the environment is static, the output voltage is a function of the phase of the returning wave, and that are cheap.
2023-12-24T23:54:54 < BrainDamage> detecting comms is not receiving them tho
2023-12-24T23:55:14 < BrainDamage> to do detection you only need something that does ^2, so you extract the average power
2023-12-24T23:55:46 < BrainDamage> it'd replace diode detectors, those already arrive in 30GHz+ variety
2023-12-24T23:56:19 < jadew> Oh, you think that's what it is?
2023-12-24T23:57:03 < jadew> They do talk about a "quantum receiver"
2023-12-24T23:57:51 < BrainDamage> let's see if I can dig the actual paper
2023-12-24T23:58:43 < jadew> "Rydberg's  atomic receiver is a fundamentally new technology for RF reception based on direct collection and demodulation of radio waves with atoms and light."
2023-12-24T23:59:24 < BrainDamage> direct demodulation sounds like the good old ^2 law
2023-12-24T23:59:30 < BrainDamage> which means uncoherent demodulation
2023-12-24T23:59:43 < BrainDamage> otherwise you could argue that a solar panel demodulates light too
--- Day changed ma joulu 25 2023
2023-12-25T00:00:10 < jadew> https://www.rydbergtechnologies.com/products
2023-12-25T00:00:23 < jadew> Let's see what these guys are selling based on it.
2023-12-25T00:03:30 < jadew> BrainDamage, to me it sounds like it's much more than a detector, it's also an antenna - is it not?
2023-12-25T00:03:57 < jadew> "Such wide spectral coverage by a single antenna is impossible with a traditional receiver system, and would require multiple systems of individual antennas, amplifiers and other components."
2023-12-25T00:04:12 < jadew> They mention that it replaces antennas in the second paragraph of the link I posted.
2023-12-25T00:04:21 < BrainDamage> I am reading https://arxiv.org/abs/1805.09808
2023-12-25T00:05:31 < BrainDamage> mind you, a ^2 receiver can _still_ receive signals, but you cannot select what
2023-12-25T00:06:32 < BrainDamage> yep, it's a x^2 sensor
2023-12-25T00:06:32 < jadew> If it's not just the envelope, you can do it after the fact. Let me read the article too.
2023-12-25T00:07:48 < BrainDamage> polarizability α, by an amount V = − 1/2 αE^2. The energy shift is observed as a frequency
2023-12-25T00:07:48 < BrainDamage>  shift δω of the atomic transition δω = V/ℏ. In a sensing time td, δω accumulates into the evolved qua
2023-12-25T00:08:21 < BrainDamage> you get the envelope, it doesn't sense the electric field, it senses the electric field ^2
2023-12-25T00:08:44 < BrainDamage> so everything gets shoved into baseband overlapped with eachother
2023-12-25T00:09:03 < BrainDamage> you can stilll demodulate a signal, but you cannot chose what signal to demodulate, you get everything
2023-12-25T00:09:40 < jadew> How about that spectroscopy system that company is selling - what could that possibly do?
2023-12-25T00:09:49 < jadew> Look at the spectrum of the demodulated signal?
2023-12-25T00:10:09 < jadew> Also, what is the BW of the envelope?
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2023-12-25T00:10:14 < Laurenceb_> wtf windozer
2023-12-25T00:10:21 < Laurenceb_> one of my cpu cores is stuck at 100%
2023-12-25T00:11:09 < jadew> It's not stuck, something's using it :)
2023-12-25T00:11:15 < BrainDamage> the bw of the envelope is 100GHz
2023-12-25T00:11:47 < BrainDamage> as for that company's product: contact to read details
2023-12-25T00:11:55 < BrainDamage> so impossible to know what it does
2023-12-25T00:11:57 < jadew> Well, if it's 100 GHz, then you have a 100 GHz antenna.
2023-12-25T00:12:38 < BrainDamage> you have a 100GHz antenna where all the signals within 100GHz will overlap with eachother
2023-12-25T00:12:50 < BrainDamage> it's good if you have _one_ signal, 100GHz wide
2023-12-25T00:12:52 < jadew> Let's say you have a 1 GHz carrier and 1 kHz modulation, if the bw of the envelope is 100 GHz, you are going to see that 1 GHz carrier as a plain signal.
2023-12-25T00:13:11 < jadew> BrainDamage, that's fine, that's what happens in an antenna too.
2023-12-25T00:13:23 < BrainDamage> no because they are separable
2023-12-25T00:14:58 < jadew> They're not separate, if your antenna goes from 1 MHz to 10 MHz, you'll get all the signals from 1 to 10, summed up.
2023-12-25T00:15:03 < Laurenceb_> jadew: this is areally weird, its like the processes are increasing their load until the cpu core is at 100%
2023-12-25T00:15:10 < Laurenceb_> task manager is using >10%
2023-12-25T00:15:16 < BrainDamage> that's LINEARITY, which means it's separable
2023-12-25T00:15:31 < BrainDamage> a+b you can still get out because you don't end up with a*b
2023-12-25T00:15:52 < BrainDamage> instead you're putting (a+b)^2 and you get a^2 + b^2 + 2ab
2023-12-25T00:15:59 < BrainDamage> and the third term is what screws you
2023-12-25T00:16:14 < BrainDamage> because now all signals will mix with eachother
2023-12-25T00:22:46 < Laurenceb_> aha found it
2023-12-25T00:23:02 < Laurenceb_> something called memory compression is running on that core and using all the excess capacity
2023-12-25T00:23:31 < Laurenceb_> wait wtf is that what I think it is
2023-12-25T00:23:39 < Laurenceb_> it is... wtf windozer
2023-12-25T00:23:50 < Laurenceb_> >literally gzipping the ram
2023-12-25T00:23:57 < Laurenceb_> no wonder its killing my cpu
2023-12-25T00:25:34 < Laurenceb_> amazing that this pc is even usable if windozer thinks thats a good plan...
2023-12-25T00:28:01 < mawk> it's using the unused CPU time
2023-12-25T00:28:06 < mawk> what's the problem
2023-12-25T00:28:23 < mawk> your CPU isn't hurting 
2023-12-25T00:29:50 < mawk> couldn't you try some numeric reconstruction BrainDamage 
2023-12-25T00:30:00 < mawk> the superposition principle doesn't work anymore 
2023-12-25T00:30:08 < jadew> BrainDamage, https://www.nist.gov/publications/multi-band-rydberg-atom-based-receiverantenna-amfm-stereo-reception
2023-12-25T00:30:38 < BrainDamage> mawk: except you don't have a and b, you have all the signals that fit into 100GHz bandwith
2023-12-25T00:30:42 < mawk> but if you know what the input signal is supposed to be
2023-12-25T00:30:46 < mawk> yeah
2023-12-25T00:31:31 < mawk> if the input is arbitrary or noised I suppose you can't do much 
2023-12-25T00:32:22 < mawk> if you know it's a single sinusoid for instance you know the input signal is half the frequency and π/4 away
2023-12-25T00:32:27 < jadew> It looks like the guys who wrote that paper were able to transmit and receive two different things at the same time. Still reading to see how they did it.
2023-12-25T00:35:54 < BrainDamage> apparently there's a second mechanism that directly demodulates fm
2023-12-25T00:36:15 < BrainDamage> a x^2 detector demodulates am
2023-12-25T00:36:48 < BrainDamage> so one laser probe gets the x^2 demodulation and the other laser probe gets the fm demodulation
2023-12-25T00:41:03 < BrainDamage> notice how they are not performing demodulation afterwards
2023-12-25T00:41:29 < BrainDamage> that's because they aren't getting the signals, they are getting the demodulated signals from the system's intrinsec behaviour
2023-12-25T00:42:07 < jadew> Yeah, that's clear now, it's both a receiver and a detector.
2023-12-25T00:43:06 < BrainDamage> if you could eg frequency select the signals that hit the receiver, with a resonant cavity, you could hope to get something coherent "in the wild"
2023-12-25T00:43:27 < jadew> Yeah, I thought about that as well, maybe have it at the end of one of those horn antennas.
2023-12-25T00:43:29 < BrainDamage> but I cannot espect that to function as a fabled 100GHz antenna, that's not what you'll get
2023-12-25T00:43:39 < jadew> Yup.
2023-12-25T00:43:58 < jadew> I don't understand exactly how it works, the physics is above my head.
2023-12-25T00:45:34 < jadew> I don't understand how they're discriminating between the two signals in the last paper.
2023-12-25T00:46:53 < BrainDamage> there are literally 2 atom in the mix and each one has slightly different behaviour
2023-12-25T00:47:13 < BrainDamage> and then because they have different energy levels, the lasers will only interact with one
2023-12-25T00:47:44 < BrainDamage> as in, there's 2 lasers at different freqs, one for rubidium the other for caesium
2023-12-25T00:48:07 < jadew> Right, but that kinda indicates that they got "tuned" by the frequency of the laser.
2023-12-25T00:48:22 < jadew> Is that not what's happening?
2023-12-25T00:48:31 < BrainDamage> no, the lasers are just for reading
2023-12-25T00:48:39 < BrainDamage> the laser's envelope is what gets the signal
2023-12-25T00:49:26 < BrainDamage> this is not 100% correct, but imagine a sort of blind that goes opaque/transparent with the magnitude of the incident rf signa
2023-12-25T00:49:33 < jadew> Right, but in the case of FM - what's causing that demodulation?
2023-12-25T00:49:46 < jadew> You can't demodulate FM without being tuned to it.
2023-12-25T00:50:32 < jadew> (to the carrier)
2023-12-25T00:50:40 < BrainDamage> you can
2023-12-25T00:50:59 < BrainDamage> there's plenty of incoherent fm demodulations
2023-12-25T00:51:13 < BrainDamage> the simplest is just lowpassing it ( not the case here ) and then do x^2
2023-12-25T00:51:48 < BrainDamage> anyway, their mechanism is at page 5
2023-12-25T00:53:17 < jadew> Yeah, I don't understand that EIT signal.
2023-12-25T00:53:18 < BrainDamage> in that case if I read correctly the FM modulation will shift the energy levels in the atoms, which means that the laser will interact better or not with it
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2023-12-25T01:03:38 < jadew> What do you make of this tho? "The detection of an FM signal works in a similar man-
2023-12-25T01:03:40 < jadew> ner. When an RF field is detuned (i.e., the RF frequency is
2023-12-25T01:03:42 < jadew> changed) from its resonant RF transition frequency, it has
2023-12-25T01:03:44 < jadew> two main effects on the observed splitting of the EIT signal,
2023-12-25T01:03:46 < jadew> discussed in detail in [16] [see Figure 3(c) and (d)]. "
2023-12-25T01:04:26 < jadew> How did it get tuned in the first place?
2023-12-25T01:05:33 < BrainDamage> it's not tuned, not in the radio sense
2023-12-25T01:05:49 < BrainDamage> it's a physics paper, the terminology won't match 1:1
2023-12-25T01:06:49 < jadew> Oh well, it still sounds pretty interesting, even tho it might not be as useful as I initially thought.
2023-12-25T01:07:00 < BrainDamage> in that case it just means that when the input frequency changes then the resonant frequency of the atoms change accordingly, detuning there refers to the resonator's natural frequency
2023-12-25T01:07:30 < BrainDamage> vs a radio tuning which refers to the demodulation destination frequency ... which originally was about a literal LC resonator
2023-12-25T01:07:39 < jadew> Thanks for the answers. I'll have to re-read it another day and try to understand what the EIT signal really is, because I can't visualize what's happening there without that.
2023-12-25T01:08:32 < BrainDamage> it's useful mostly when you control all the signals that are meant to be received
2023-12-25T01:08:44 < BrainDamage> or when you're interested in a power measurement
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2023-12-25T01:13:30 < BrainDamage> I guess it'd be pretty good to ... characterize antennas
2023-12-25T01:44:39 < qyx> they are black magic
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2023-12-25T20:44:30 < qyx> have you heard about stm32pf2024?
2023-12-25T20:45:23 < jpa-> i really hope that is not a real part number
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2023-12-25T21:06:59 < jbo> lol
2023-12-25T21:09:25 < Steffanx> Yeah I heard about it qyx. It's great it's awesome.
2023-12-25T21:09:51 < Steffanx> Also good Christmas and whatever festivities to you all.
2023-12-25T21:10:13 < Steffanx> Even to you jbo.
2023-12-25T21:12:05 < jbo> thank you Steffanx - the same to you
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2023-12-25T21:55:11 < mawk> what does the pf stands for qyx 
2023-12-25T21:55:35 < mawk> p has to be for pros
2023-12-25T21:55:37 < mawk> of course 
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2023-12-25T21:56:31 < jbo> packet filter
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2023-12-25T23:08:33 < qyx> Steffanx: 2u2
2023-12-25T23:10:34 < qyx> let's wish ourselves a year full of stm32 innovations, no shortages, no wuflu, no unexpected semiconductor market developments, etc.
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2023-12-25T23:48:03 < qyx> so, zephyr, is it still that bad?
--- Day changed ti joulu 26 2023
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2023-12-26T00:10:30 < Steffanx> Depends on your definition of bad
2023-12-26T00:10:33 < karlp> I'm sur eit is vastly simpler and less layered now that more people have worked on it...
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2023-12-26T00:11:37 < Steffanx> Ive used it and I can find my way around in it, but still have my "wtf is wrong" moments.
2023-12-26T00:12:47 < Steffanx> Especially the device tree/not enabling the module related compile errors can be fun
2023-12-26T00:17:01 < Steffanx> I was kinda surprised how easy it was to run some lvlgl demo on a custom board.
2023-12-26T00:20:07 < Steffanx> What adventure are you stepping into qyx?
2023-12-26T00:21:58 < qyx> I am reconsidering my previous choices
2023-12-26T00:22:17 < qyx> whether to continue developing my own stuff or migrate to zephyr
2023-12-26T00:22:27 < qyx> because I am practically doing the same
2023-12-26T00:23:14 < Steffanx> Device tree included?
2023-12-26T00:23:37 < qyx> yes I plan to because it may be saner in the end
2023-12-26T00:24:55 < qyx> but I need featureful simplicity, not simple bloated complexity
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2023-12-26T00:30:08 < Steffanx> Lol. Not sure you'll enjoy zephyr then
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2023-12-26T00:43:56 < Steffanx> Didn't you have a lot of fun doing custom board files last time you tried?
2023-12-26T00:47:11 < qyx> yes I did
2023-12-26T00:52:43 < catphish> i can has flipper zero for christmas, this is awesome for playing with NFC, dunno what else yet, but fun toy
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2023-12-26T00:53:32 < zyp> I hear it's great for script kiddie style vandalism
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2023-12-26T06:02:49 < zyp> jpa-, so I hacked up some FOC shit on my desktop setup by setting up a torque PID controller in linuxcnc, and it behaved like shit
2023-12-26T06:03:34 < zyp> turned out it was just too slow, after upping the linuxcnc cycle rate from 1kHz to 5kHz it started behaving
2023-12-26T06:05:54 < zyp> neither P term nor D term seems particularly useful, but I tuned FF0 term so it alone would track well at stall, and then I term for keeping up when it's moving
2023-12-26T06:06:10 < zyp> ended up with FF0=3, I=5000
2023-12-26T06:06:57 < zyp> but depending on bus voltage, naturally, since I don't take that into account
2023-12-26T06:07:57 < zyp> either way a lot more hassle than DTC was :p
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2023-12-26T08:55:08 < jpa-> zyp: i-term only is usually unstable, having some p would be a good idea
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2023-12-26T15:18:14 < zyp> jpa-, you're right, it was well behaved when the setpoint came from a sine siggen, not so much with a square one
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2023-12-26T15:27:12 < zyp> strike that, it got unstable because I forgot to set maxoutput so it wrapped instead of saturating
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2023-12-26T15:51:03 < specing> Was/is laurencer working at hyperloop?
2023-12-26T15:51:50 < Steffanx> hyperclone.
2023-12-26T15:52:10 < specing> I'm gonna blame him for the bankruptcy :P
2023-12-26T15:52:35 < Steffanx> You're probably not wrong
2023-12-26T15:52:59 < specing> lol
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2023-12-26T17:02:55 < bitmask> happy holidays or something
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2023-12-26T17:21:07 < Steffanx> You too sir bitmask 
2023-12-26T17:21:15 < bitmask> :)
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2023-12-26T17:39:42 < bitmask> ohhhh game engine, please don't crash again
2023-12-26T17:40:13 < bitmask> yay
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2023-12-26T19:06:52 < srk> bitmask: hacking on engine during holidays? :)
2023-12-26T19:07:17 < bitmask> i started my own engine a while ago and then stopped, just started working on it again a bit
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2023-12-26T19:09:56  * srk same with embedded :D
2023-12-26T19:10:04 < srk> why does it crash!? :D
2023-12-26T19:12:33 < bitmask> something is getting initialized out of order. It isn't crashing anymore but half the time it works fine, the other half either it doesnt show the scene until I move the mouse or it shows the scene and when I move the character the screen goes black and doesnt come back
2023-12-26T19:12:50 < srk> fun! vulcan?
2023-12-26T19:12:50 < bitmask> has to do with handling window resizing and viewport resizing
2023-12-26T19:12:53 < bitmask> yea
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2023-12-26T19:48:31 < srk> PaulFertser: https://github.com/DistRap/hocd
2023-12-26T19:48:44 < srk> jpa-: ^ getting close :D
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2023-12-26T20:37:28 < zyp> jpa-, how does this look? https://bin.jvnv.net/file/YGTgr.png
2023-12-26T20:39:23 < jpa-> so what are the colors?
2023-12-26T20:39:33 < zyp> they're labelled
2023-12-26T20:40:00 < zyp> red is current setpoint, cyan is feedback, green is pwm.q, purple is encoder count
2023-12-26T20:40:03 < jpa-> yeah, and i don't understand the labels, and the cyan label i don't even see :)
2023-12-26T20:40:43 < jpa-> ah, so reaching maximum RPM and the PWM saturates?
2023-12-26T20:40:48 < zyp> yes
2023-12-26T20:41:03 < jpa-> yeah, looks pretty reasonable to me
2023-12-26T20:42:05 < zyp> if I grab the rotor to keep it from rotating, it looks like this: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/P2gyi.png
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2023-12-26T21:32:33 < qyx> we should make a zypsnip with nicks of motor pros
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2023-12-26T22:17:24 < Steffanx> Why would you do that to them qyx . 
2023-12-26T22:17:40 < Steffanx> Want to share them with the entire interwebs?
2023-12-26T22:19:37 -!- ferdna [~ferdna@user/ferdna] has joined ##stm32
2023-12-26T22:35:43 < qyx> we can also make a zypsnip with lames, I would join
2023-12-26T23:21:55 < karlp> hrm, jlc parts has a part, but lcsc doesn't...
--- Day changed ke joulu 27 2023
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2023-12-27T00:08:41 < nomorekaki> moite
2023-12-27T00:09:09 < nomorekaki> late moite
2023-12-27T00:13:25 < qyx> late latte kaki
2023-12-27T00:17:42 < nomorekaki> just came from sauna party
2023-12-27T00:18:35 < zyp> nice
2023-12-27T00:19:32 < nomorekaki> getting drunk from coffee and christmast delicatessens and leaving at 2200
2023-12-27T00:20:11 < nomorekaki> and low alcohol beer
2023-12-27T00:22:26 < nomorekaki> 0.5 just enough to trick the brain
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2023-12-27T00:30:27 < Steffanx> Ill send you some stroopwafels to get true diabetes nomorekaki
2023-12-27T00:30:54 < nomorekaki> I'll die to the next stroopwaffle I eat steff
2023-12-27T00:31:12 < Steffanx> LOL, is it that bad?
2023-12-27T00:31:35 < nomorekaki> *next delivery of stroopwaffles that I can't stop eating
2023-12-27T00:35:04 < nomorekaki> so basically once I eat the first one Imma ded
2023-12-27T00:35:40 < Steffanx> ill ship just one then
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2023-12-27T03:30:42 < karlp> I love china... "features built-in USB, proprietary 32-bit MCU clocked at 24 MHz, integrated capless LDOs supporting 1.7-5.5V supply range, making it a perfect microcontroller for cost-sensitive applications such as mouse devices, toys and disposables."
2023-12-27T03:31:04 < karlp> capless LDO, what fun
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2023-12-27T05:43:54 < fenugrec> can I do two out-of-phase PWM signals (i.e. the rising edge of both is not simultaneous) with a single TMR ? looks like I would need to slave a second timer with a non-zero initial value
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2023-12-27T09:15:59 < zyp> fenugrec, yes, you can
2023-12-27T09:16:34 < zyp> you can do center-aligned PWM by setting the timer to up and down counting mode
2023-12-27T09:17:14 < zyp> and IIRC there's also a way to pair up two and two channels so that one sets when it's going high and the other sets when it's going low
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2023-12-27T09:19:48 < qyx> disposables should be banned
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2023-12-27T10:05:07 < jpa-> fenugrec: for two phases aligned exactly opposite, you can do center-aligned mode like zyp says
2023-12-27T10:05:26 < jpa-> for 4 channels of freely placed pulse edges, you can do DMA into the CCR registers
2023-12-27T10:08:41 < jpa-> and if you have HRTIM, you can get 10 channels of freely placed edges
2023-12-27T10:09:18 < jpa-> (after you read through the 150 pages of documentation for HRTIM ;)
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2023-12-27T10:44:52 < qyx> isn't there a toggle mode too?
2023-12-27T10:45:29 < qyx> I recall something about having 4 channels with 50% duty and variable phase
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2023-12-27T11:23:23 < jpa-> qyx: true, if you don't need the M in PWM ;)
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2023-12-27T16:07:31 < nomorekaki> jadew: got email back?
2023-12-27T16:09:46 < jadew> nomorekaki, yeah, he said we'll be talking about it in the new year.
2023-12-27T16:10:59 < jadew> I don't think he'll accept my demands, but I don't care either way. I'm working on something right now and my brain melts because of how bad the code is.
2023-12-27T16:13:15 < jadew> Time hasn't gone by so slow for me since I was in primary school, when I would wait for the final ring of the bell, so I could go home.
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2023-12-27T16:21:43 < fenugrec> zyp, jpa- thanks; should've specified center-aligned will not work in this scenario. DMA to CCR - I had initially dismissed updating pulse edges every period, but hadn't considered automating with DMA. Will look into that, good idea
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2023-12-27T17:00:09 < srk> jpa-: is done https://github.com/DistRap/emhell
2023-12-27T17:00:34 < srk> use ghc9+, ideally 9.4.7 or 9.6.3
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2023-12-27T17:12:17 < Laurenceb_> has anyone ever used raw ethernet with stm32?
2023-12-27T17:12:32 < Laurenceb_> I'm thinking of using it on hyperwheels
2023-12-27T17:14:08 < jpa-> srk: cool
2023-12-27T17:16:27 < srk> I'll add setting regfields as well bit later^tm
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2023-12-27T17:40:12 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FGCUOR7DaMAAgri_.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
2023-12-27T17:46:20 < specing> Laurenceb_: so what's the hyper situation now
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2023-12-27T17:53:34 < Laurenceb_> still working on it, production run of wheel motors are being sold for use on high speed trains
2023-12-27T17:54:02 < Laurenceb_> but current CAN based control is a bit slow once we still lots of motors and sensors on one bus
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2023-12-27T18:01:02 < srk> Laurenceb_: why not ethercat then?
2023-12-27T18:01:18 < srk> you can just encapsulate CAN into it (CoE)
2023-12-27T18:02:07 < Laurenceb_> yeah, but it doesnt really need ip
2023-12-27T18:02:16 < Laurenceb_> was just looking for some simple codez
2023-12-27T18:15:49 < Laurenceb_> I also dont understand the 100m limit
2023-12-27T18:16:04 < Laurenceb_> not sure if its signal integrity related or only applies to hubs
2023-12-27T18:25:50 < Laurenceb_> my reading of the specs is that 200m is ok between switches
2023-12-27T18:25:52 < zyp> srk, CoE is canopen over ethercat, not arbitrary can over ethercat
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2023-12-27T18:26:10 < zyp> Laurenceb_, what 100m limit?
2023-12-27T18:27:28 < Laurenceb_> in the 100base-tx spec, max cable length is 100m
2023-12-27T18:27:34 < zyp> if you're thinking of the 100m limit in 100BASE-TX, that's purely a signal integrity thing
2023-12-27T18:27:38 < Laurenceb_> ah ok
2023-12-27T18:27:44 < zyp> i.e. phy to phy distance
2023-12-27T18:28:21 < Laurenceb_> I wonder if it can be exceeded in real world
2023-12-27T18:28:33 < zyp> the only way length could matter for anything above the phy layer is if you're running some timing sensitive upper layer protocol
2023-12-27T18:29:50 < zyp> and yeah, depending on cable and the crosstalk environment and whatever, the actual limit will naturally vary in practice
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2023-12-27T18:30:15 < zyp> if it's supposed to be reliable up to 100m, it'd naturally work for a lot of cases with longer distances than that
2023-12-27T18:30:49 < zyp> but that also becomes a question of why you'd want to do that
2023-12-27T18:31:09 < zyp> at >100m between phys, why not run fiber instead?
2023-12-27T18:32:15 < zyp> alternatively if you don't need 100Mb/s, consider 10BASE-T1L instead, IIRC it'll do 1.4km
2023-12-27T18:32:17 < Laurenceb_> I wanted to keep all the nodes identical - 4pin M12 using PoE
2023-12-27T18:32:34 < Laurenceb_> I need 100Mbps or close to that to run all the nodes
2023-12-27T18:33:43 < zyp> are there only a few runs that needs to be >100m? if so you could consider PoE-powered repeaters (with PoE passthrough)
2023-12-27T18:59:36 < Laurenceb_> hmm good point, yeah there are only a few runs that long
2023-12-27T18:59:48 < Laurenceb_> woah I just read about linkMD, very nice
2023-12-27T19:00:16 < Laurenceb_> could use that to debug general wiring faults - I have some pt1k sensors on cat5 runs with faults
2023-12-27T19:01:02 < Laurenceb_> I'm planning on using a KSZ8863 with each stm32 board
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2023-12-27T22:16:25 < karlp> ok, keyboard replacement controller enumerates the hub, and the stm32 on dfu.  time to .... do the keyboard bit then I guess :)
2023-12-27T22:17:00 < karlp> turns out my upstream hub, and my hub, and powr switch will happily deliver 2.5A through to a single usb-A port, just the voltage goes down to ~4V :)
2023-12-27T22:30:51 < zyp> beware that vbus-sensing phys will consider it disconnected and kill D+ pullup if vbus drops too low
2023-12-27T22:31:10 < karlp> oh yeah, it's dumb, I just wasn't expecting it to actually get that far.
2023-12-27T22:33:02 < zyp> I'm so fucking tired of having to wire up int/float converters in linuxcnc hal
2023-12-27T22:33:41 < zyp> so I added fixedpoint support to my protocol that my driver converts to linuxcnc float signals
2023-12-27T22:34:40 < zyp> shit even works first try: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/W5ah7.png
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--- Day changed to joulu 28 2023
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2023-12-28T00:21:33 < jbo> moin
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2023-12-28T00:28:02 < Steffanx> Gooday sir jbo 
2023-12-28T00:28:59 < jbo> how's life?
2023-12-28T00:30:55 < Steffanx> What to say.. not much to complain 
2023-12-28T00:31:20 < jbo> that sounds lovely
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2023-12-28T11:58:56 < karlp> heh, ethercat bans the use of energy efficient ethernet.
2023-12-28T11:59:20 < zyp> for good reason
2023-12-28T12:00:56 < qyx> so ethercat is the real reason we are gonna die of global warming
2023-12-28T12:01:04 < zyp> the PHYs on the boards I use implements MAC-independent EEE, which means they've got a FIFO in the TX path deep enough to buffer a packet while it wakes up the link
2023-12-28T12:01:16 < zyp> which is enabled by default
2023-12-28T12:02:15 < karlp> you should/could still have the green ethernet parts, especialllllly for ethercat typical lengths.
2023-12-28T12:02:25 < karlp> sure, they don't want to have to the link power idle stuff.
2023-12-28T12:02:52 < zyp> I spent a lot of time trying to work out why I got almost no latency when I tested with a single board, and like 50x as much latency when I got two boards chained
2023-12-28T12:03:21 < zyp> turned out that the PHYs negotiated EEE on the link between the two boards and thereby added a bunch of latency each way
2023-12-28T12:05:53 < karlp> I would have thought, naiively, that an ethercat system running it's control loop wouldn't have allowed the link to be considered "idle" enough to go to low power?
2023-12-28T12:05:58 < srk> zyp: like even better (CoE)
2023-12-28T12:06:45 < srk> how much latency? compared to just can?
2023-12-28T12:07:22 < zyp> srk, point is, CoE takes the higher layer stuff from canopen (PDO/SDO/etc) and puts it on ethercat
2023-12-28T12:08:06 < srk> hmmm. so not just an encapsulation?
2023-12-28T12:08:13 < zyp> correct
2023-12-28T12:08:25 < srk> I see, interesting
2023-12-28T12:08:35 < srk> I've had access to some ethercat boards but no time to play with them
2023-12-28T12:08:56 < srk> (or more like no real use case for that)
2023-12-28T12:09:19 < zyp> I should add that I've never actually done ethercat, but I've got some adjacent experience
2023-12-28T12:10:06 < zyp> at $oldjob, I implemented ethernet powerlink, which is similar
2023-12-28T12:10:07 < srk> for servoing I still hope 1Mbit can will be plenty but I'll try FDCAN soonish, more bandwidth can't hurt
2023-12-28T12:11:23 < srk> would you recommend it instead of eCAT?
2023-12-28T12:11:50 < zyp> EPL is also a way to run canopen upper layers over ethernet, but it differs from ethercat in that it runs request/response frames instead of frame rewrite, so it doesn't need special slave MACs
2023-12-28T12:11:54 < zyp> no
2023-12-28T12:12:54 < zyp> the drawback of EPL is that it needs a low latency fabric, i.e. ethernet *hubs*, and that doesn't really exist as off the shelf parts anymore
2023-12-28T12:13:08 < srk> heh, fun
2023-12-28T12:13:34 < zyp> microchip has a switch chip that has a «repeater mode» to get rid of the store and forward latency that a switch normally has, but it doesn't fucking work
2023-12-28T12:14:19 < zyp> we designed around that, and as soon as I enabled the repeater mode, it starts dropping packets and complaining about collisions
2023-12-28T12:14:43 < srk> ouch!
2023-12-28T12:14:50 < srk> like I would be interested in can over ethernet or similar iff I started doing some crazy plasma cutters or similar extremely noisy things where optical transmission would be needed
2023-12-28T12:14:57 < zyp> I spent a ton of time trying to figure it out, but there's simply nothing it *can* collide with
2023-12-28T12:15:23 < srk> so industrial ethernet might be better than epl?
2023-12-28T12:15:56 < srk> (since there are switches for it)
2023-12-28T12:16:01 < zyp> as far as I can tell, EPL is pretty dead, go ethercat or something else instead
2023-12-28T12:17:28 < zyp> for $oldjob, if they end up contracting me back to resume the project, I'll replace the switch chip with a small FPGA and two PHYs
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2023-12-28T12:22:04 < zyp> I figure it's not a lot of work to implement a repeater on the FPGA, and since redundancy is also on the roadmap, it'd be easy to implement something like HSR
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2023-12-28T12:24:23 < zyp> I figure the simplest way to implement a low latency redundant ring is to start out with a three port repeater, and then just add monitoring logic to the inactive ports
2023-12-28T12:26:03 < zyp> e.g. if the local mcu is transmitting, you first get a packet on the internal port, which you start relaying on the two external ports, and if the ring is intact you should soon get the same packet back through both the external ports, so while transmitting you could just monitor those and see that you got back what you just sent
2023-12-28T12:27:29 < zyp> same if the initial packet arrives on one of the external ports, you'd forward it to the other two ports and also expect the same packet to run back the other direction
2023-12-28T12:27:50 < karlp> ethercat G is pretty funny though, "yeah, so, we tossed out the whole 'every node sees the frame once' rules, now we're just splitting to a tree/star, hope that's ok! we're callign it a feature!"
2023-12-28T12:28:24 < zyp> karlp, how so?
2023-12-28T12:28:35 < zyp> isn't it still a logical loop?
2023-12-28T12:28:42 < karlp> nope.
2023-12-28T12:28:48 < karlp> explicitly broken and parallel processing
2023-12-28T12:29:08 < karlp> despite pages of promo eaarlier about "don't worry abotu topology! everything becomes one easy loop, all the time!"
2023-12-28T12:29:34 < zyp> you mean the part where they run regular ethercat branches from an ethercat g backbone?
2023-12-28T12:29:43 < karlp> yeah.
2023-12-28T12:29:51 < zyp> well, that's kinda given
2023-12-28T12:29:51 < karlp> and also ethercaat-g from ethercat-g backbone.
2023-12-28T12:30:14 < karlp> well, yes, I was curious how they were planning it :) but it still makes a bit of a mockery of their own words.
2023-12-28T12:30:42 < karlp> I agree ethercat is probably the best of them, but it's still weird reading their marketting.
2023-12-28T12:31:59 < karlp> liek https://bin.jvnv.net/file/SBTnE.png 
2023-12-28T12:32:08 < karlp> lol, we call it one version, but with .... profiles... and classes.
2023-12-28T12:32:15 < karlp> and ethercat g and g10 and p and....
2023-12-28T12:32:29 < zyp> I've been thinking about something similar for my shit, I'm currently doing something ethercat-like on gigabit, but it'd be nice if I could have a common upper layer that could run on multiple lower layers (low latency chain, regular switched ethernet, maybe can) and automatically handle bridging
2023-12-28T12:33:29 < karlp> yeah, I think a lot of ethercat would be just as useful even if you didn't do this whole on the fly frame processing.
2023-12-28T12:33:58 < karlp> but whatever, I'm still not actually working on the ethercat stuff here yet.
2023-12-28T12:34:31 < zyp> e.g. I'd like to be able to put a microcontroller on the robot tool, and I don't really want to patch that directly into the GbE backbone chain
2023-12-28T12:34:52 < karlp> this one was fun too: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/cEL97.png
2023-12-28T12:35:11 < karlp> like, I know it's a strength of ethercat, but it's not like ethercat is the only thing that can do autoaddressing
2023-12-28T12:35:25 < zyp> haha
2023-12-28T12:35:31 < karlp> and particulary funny for me here is that they do _everything_ with manually configured static ip addresses.
2023-12-28T12:35:49 < karlp> I've added mdns and they're like "what is this? this can't be right...."
2023-12-28T12:35:57 < zyp> my stuff is currently addressed by chain index
2023-12-28T12:36:17 < karlp> i got mansplained that "factories don't use this, they statically configure everythign" 
2023-12-28T12:36:22 < qyx> I am about to introduce ipv6 only stuff next
2023-12-28T12:36:31 < zyp> which works nice for static topologies
2023-12-28T12:36:34 < karlp> by the one guy who's worked here for 40 years and never seen anyone elses networks.
2023-12-28T12:36:35 < qyx> I guess people are going to segfault
2023-12-28T12:37:11 < karlp> better not tell him I deplouyed mdns on this network in their own factory right here, at $oldjob.
2023-12-28T12:37:16 < karlp> and IT management loved it.
2023-12-28T12:37:58 < zyp> my biggest problem is that I want a bunch of opposing goals for my bus protocol
2023-12-28T12:38:02 < karlp> still. I had thought you needed special phy's for ethercat too, but apparently not.
2023-12-28T12:38:04 < BrainDamage> you can even have multiple ipv4, one handled by mdns slaac and one staticaly
2023-12-28T12:38:16 < zyp> it's not the PHYs that's special, just the slave MACs
2023-12-28T12:38:32 < karlp> BrainDamage: don't get too advanced, I'm still converting shit to actually support more than one tcp client per port....
2023-12-28T12:38:43 < qyx> lol
2023-12-28T12:38:56 < karlp> "oh, anotehr client application wants to connect to us, better listen on another port, this one's already in use..."
2023-12-28T12:39:06 < karlp> fucking.... wat of the year when I saw that.
2023-12-28T12:39:40 < karlp> zyp: ti still happily sells some extra "low latency ethernet field bus compatible" phys.
2023-12-28T12:40:14 < karlp> apparently as long as you can get link up in 100tx without MDIO you'r egood to go...
2023-12-28T12:40:35 < karlp> as long asyou have a suitable _mac_ sitll :)
2023-12-28T12:47:22 < srk> karlp: lol, someone reinventing versions
2023-12-28T12:47:38 < srk> leads to great stuff when you can't ever break api
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2023-12-28T13:56:35 < nomorekaki> what is the difference between renaming symbols and refactoring in vs code?
2023-12-28T13:58:36 < jpa-> refactoring probably tries to be smarter
2023-12-28T13:59:02 < nomorekaki> idk but renaming works really well
2023-12-28T14:00:02 < nomorekaki> it understands the context and autoselects flawlessly most of the time
2023-12-28T14:00:27 < Steffanx> The refactor function simply is not the same as rename.. afaik refactor cant even rename.
2023-12-28T14:01:55 < nomorekaki> I think I need to rename all my stuff
2023-12-28T14:02:31 < Steffanx> norenamekaki.
2023-12-28T14:03:12 < nomorekaki> instead of lib_poop_and_pee_logic_test
2023-12-28T14:05:09 < Steffanx> ...
2023-12-28T14:09:24 < nomorekaki> not literal but that is my stucture
2023-12-28T14:09:45 < nomorekaki> naming convention
2023-12-28T14:10:17 < Steffanx> Yeah, but what would you use instead? 
2023-12-28T14:10:54 < qyx> lpaper
2023-12-28T14:11:04 < qyx> lib poop and pee evolved renamer
2023-12-28T14:13:47 < nomorekaki> sLibPoopAndPee_LogicTest?
2023-12-28T14:14:11 < nomorekaki> naa that camel case doesn't look right to me
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2023-12-28T14:18:12 < nomorekaki> better get back to what matters between the brackets
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2023-12-28T14:24:12 < Steffanx> You better kick kaki's ass, nomorekaki . Not seen for 36 weeks.
2023-12-28T14:31:15 < nomorekaki> somebody just registered it and never used it
2023-12-28T14:31:38 < nomorekaki> I wonder if I sleepwalked into libera registeration
2023-12-28T14:34:08 < jbo> moin moin
2023-12-28T14:34:47 < nomorekaki> moite
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2023-12-28T14:35:18 < jbo> moite-moite :>
2023-12-28T14:35:33 < jbo> not sure if that is known outside of .ch
2023-12-28T14:38:44 < Steffanx> moitié moitié  maybe.
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2023-12-28T15:01:19 < jbo> https://ubuntu.com/pro/subscribe
2023-12-28T15:01:20 < jbo> wut
2023-12-28T15:09:19 < karlp> if you have a mac address that is normaly printed like: "// TODO reverse this shit again please... going to need reversing I think? and masking only 48bits?
2023-12-28T15:09:23 < karlp> not that. 
2023-12-28T15:09:33 < karlp> normally printed like 0c:8b:95:49:ef:3b
2023-12-28T15:09:51 < karlp> do you store that as a uint64_t as 0x3bef.... or as 0x0c8b.... ?
2023-12-28T15:10:09 < karlp> or is this all just made up...
2023-12-28T15:11:47 < zyp> if you'd like to treat it as a number, it's big endian
2023-12-28T15:12:09 < zyp> but I don't really sure if there's any reason to do so
2023-12-28T15:12:16 < zyp> I'm not really sure*
2023-12-28T15:12:17 < karlp> just skanky having to reverse to make a printf("%16llx", uint64_t) look "right"
2023-12-28T15:12:34 < zyp> so don't do that then :)
2023-12-28T15:12:51 < karlp> well, not reversing it makes it print out in reverse...
2023-12-28T15:12:59  * karlp shrugs
2023-12-28T15:13:04 < karlp> gonna try and not be bohtered by this
2023-12-28T15:16:23 < jpa-> i do crap like    uint8_t mac_addr[6];    printf("%02x:%02x:%02x:%02x:%02x:%02x", mac_addr[0], ....);
2023-12-28T15:17:03 < jpa-> i guess uint64_t works if all your stuff keeps it as a uint64_t
2023-12-28T15:17:29 < jpa-> if you cast a uint8_t* to a uint64_t*, you'll get aligment errors when compiler decides to use load doubleword
2023-12-28T15:35:20 < qyx> uint8_t[6]?
2023-12-28T15:35:49 < qyx> I am using ^
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2023-12-28T17:04:49 < karlp> fucking predecessors: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/njlon
2023-12-28T17:05:00 < karlp> who manually adds baud rate validation outside of the sdk hal stack?
2023-12-28T17:05:46 < nomorekaki> fucking predecessors?
2023-12-28T17:05:57 < nomorekaki> how is the innovation?
2023-12-28T17:06:01 < karlp> I wish. git blame tells me it's current colleague...
2023-12-28T17:06:17 < nomorekaki> what is the problem?
2023-12-28T17:06:22 < karlp> explains why I couldn't up the baud to 921600 even though, let alone 2M or something.
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2023-12-28T17:07:15 < nomorekaki> yes make it based to common divider at least
2023-12-28T17:12:44 < nomorekaki> hmm (baud != 0)&&(baud % 300 == 0)&&(__builtin_popcount(baud/300)==1) ?
2023-12-28T17:13:44 < nomorekaki> maybe first part is reduntant
2023-12-28T17:14:52 < fenugrec> validting baudrate is just evil. why doesn't "set_baud(unsigned requested)" return the exact baudrate assigned as a function of clocks and divisors, then caller can decide if it's within tols
2023-12-28T17:15:05 < karlp> ^^^
2023-12-28T17:15:23 < fenugrec> that's like linux having freakin EQUATES for standard baudrates. Yes thank you, the 16550 UART from freakin 1991 can do better than that. F
2023-12-28T17:15:48 < karlp> yeah, serial in linux has some serious calcification
2023-12-28T17:16:05 < fenugrec> karlp I think we've been to similar places re serial port over the last few years : )
2023-12-28T17:16:15 < karlp> everyone goes, 16550? you mean, 8250 and I just ignore all the actual features right?
2023-12-28T17:18:17 < karlp> oh. great.  it doesn't validate input settings.  it runs a task every x secs that loads the setting, checks if "it's valid" and then rewrites the setting to default if not, and applies it.
2023-12-28T17:18:19 < karlp> so backwards.
2023-12-28T17:43:18 < Steffanx> some client just wanted to support those "standard" baudrates so the manager forced the colleague to implement it?
2023-12-28T17:46:34 < karlp> no I suspect colleague "knew better" and was trying to help.
2023-12-28T17:48:03 < Steffanx> Help do what? 
2023-12-28T17:50:21 < karlp> "be safe" or some misguided idea.
2023-12-28T18:16:40 < fenugrec> 16550 is actually from 1987. So, 46 years of being able to choose arbitrary integer divisors, yet here we are "duh you're only allowed even fractions of 115200"
2023-12-28T18:24:28 < nomorekaki> if there is code with the intent to "make it safe" the whole approach is wrong
2023-12-28T18:25:07 < nomorekaki> it should be safe from bottom up
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2023-12-28T19:44:33 < antto> uh, fenugrec your calculator is fired
2023-12-28T19:48:31 < fenugrec> shhhh
2023-12-28T19:52:46 < Steffanx> lol
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2023-12-28T19:53:32 < nomorekaki> ah yes and uart speed needs to work in request -> return fashion ofc
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2023-12-28T22:48:51 < qyx> is there a faster way to watch a register change in gdb than watch $r9?
2023-12-28T22:49:51 < qyx> I am pretty tired of watching memset run cycle by cycle..
2023-12-28T22:52:04 < qyx> I catched the offender https://paste.jvnv.net/view/1cMIz
2023-12-28T22:56:13 < qyx> but nobody is gonna tell you that for your project to be PIC, you need all your libraries to be PIC
2023-12-28T22:56:31 < qyx> which makes me a extraordinary sad panda
2023-12-28T23:01:29 < qyx> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/microcontrollers/bare-metal-arm-gcc-position-independent-code-possible/
2023-12-28T23:08:31 < Steffanx> Why you want PIC so badly qyx ?
2023-12-28T23:11:16 < qyx> because I want OTA at an arbitrary location
2023-12-28T23:11:24 < qyx> and also dynamically loadable modules
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--- Day changed pe joulu 29 2023
2023-12-29T00:07:03 < qyx> enough for today, still a dead end
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2023-12-29T00:30:26 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FGB0hYp3WMAI3-aD.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
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2023-12-29T01:11:06 < antto> if you want PIC badly enough, Laurenceb_'s gonna deliver
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2023-12-29T01:24:37 < karlp> TIL that vids/pids in udev rules had to be lower case...
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2023-12-29T01:50:43 < qyx> you dare not write hexa-base in uppercase
2023-12-29T02:00:01 < karlp> heh, qmk build system _requires_ vid/pid in upper case :)
2023-12-29T02:00:16 < karlp> however, I now have a QMK firmware on my board that is a keyboard!
2023-12-29T02:00:34 < karlp> the encoder volume wheel works, the leds work, the keys all work, just the direct wired extra buttons don't work.
2023-12-29T02:01:07 < fenugrec> qyx, I had similar needs (BL had to run in RAM at arbitrary location), I compiled it for a fixed location and wrote a short auto-loader that memmove's itself to the correct place. I never got PIC to work correctly
2023-12-29T02:02:15 < karlp> biggest trick was that chibios apparently enables the USBCPD peripheral on g4 by default... 
2023-12-29T02:02:22 < karlp> which very much fucks up the matrix scannign.
2023-12-29T02:03:05 < fenugrec> didn't know karl was into keyboard haxing. Reminds me I need to sell my original IBM model M
2023-12-29T02:05:05 < karlp> I am not.
2023-12-29T02:05:41 < karlp> I bought myself a "fancy" keyboard some years ago, which was mech.  don't realllly see the appeal witih the mech shit, but having a usb3 hub and a real actual volume knob was nice.
2023-12-29T02:05:59 < karlp> then I .... ummm. borked it.... (blame jpa!)  (it was my own fault)
2023-12-29T02:06:11 < qyx> lol
2023-12-29T02:06:21 < karlp> so I've built a replacement controller board, usb2 only, but otherwise cool
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2023-12-29T02:07:36 < qyx> fenugrec: I also tried the lazy approach without the needed knowledge and I obviously failed, that is finding all 32bit aligned occurences of 0x080xxxxx constants and offsetting them
2023-12-29T02:07:56 < qyx> during firmware flashing
2023-12-29T02:08:58 < qyx> it could work if I properly looked how do those instruction look like
2023-12-29T02:10:25 < fenugrec> oh I don't mean doing what a 'proper' loader does and adjust relocations, although you could do that if you want to parse the .elf
2023-12-29T02:11:11 < fenugrec> my thing just moves itself to a known addr in RAM, and it was compiled to expect to run there. https://github.com/fenugrec/npkern/blob/master/ldscripts/lkr_7055_7058.ld
2023-12-29T02:12:43 < fenugrec> maybe not applicable to your scenario after all
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2023-12-29T08:53:50 < jpa-> karlp: so would you like to try my ESD tester next? i found a clever way to avoid needing isolation between the HV gen and USB sections, so far it has only fried one power supply
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2023-12-29T11:47:55 < karlp> sure!
2023-12-29T11:48:22 < karlp> I actually have lefftover usb hubs and keyboard rev1s, and I mounted esd protection on them like a good boy...
2023-12-29T11:51:17 < karlp> can people, if I have two socketcan interfaces on linux, should I be able to just "candump can0" in one window and "cansend can1 123#112233" in another window?
2023-12-29T11:51:55 < karlp> (after ip link set can0 up type can bitrate 500000
2023-12-29T11:52:00 < karlp> for both interfaceS?)
2023-12-29T11:54:51 < karlp> fenugrec: heh, work is blocking me from reading your  project report at romraider.com
2023-12-29T12:08:59 < qyx> karlp: yes
2023-12-29T12:09:16 < qyx> no worky?
2023-12-29T12:09:58 < qyx> you can even connect multiple times to the same can if
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2023-12-29T12:13:08 < karlp> didn't last night, but I need to try again.
2023-12-29T12:13:19 < karlp> just connected gnd, h-h and l-l between two nodes.
2023-12-29T12:15:24 < qyx> didn't you forget terminations?
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2023-12-29T12:15:43 < qyx> at least one
2023-12-29T12:20:10 < karlp> will check more.
2023-12-29T12:20:25 < karlp> also, fuck yeah, fuck sodimm sized, use two ngff connectors instead!
2023-12-29T12:20:27 < karlp> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006390912599.html?aff_fcid=e42266a402844788899327bdb07f4ca0-1703845142199-06453-_DD84tOv&tt=CPS_NORMAL&aff_fsk=_DD84tOv&aff_platform=shareComponent-detail&sk=_DD84tOv&aff_trace_key=e42266a402844788899327bdb07f4ca0-1703845142199-06453-_DD84tOv&terminal_id=efa5329730f145bfba238e5cc0e1af5c&afSmartRedirect=y
2023-12-29T12:20:40 < karlp> fucking. perhaps this is easier: https://www.cnx-software.com/2023/12/29/sipeed-longan-pi3h-a-raspberry-pi-zero-sized-board-with-gigabit-ethernet-wifi-6-hdmi-and-usb-ports/
2023-12-29T12:20:43 < karlp> I love it.
2023-12-29T12:22:37 < qyx> oh
2023-12-29T12:22:42 < qyx> thats grest
2023-12-29T12:22:55 < qyx> isn't it smaller than sodimm?
2023-12-29T12:24:54 < karlp> yes, I believe so.
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2023-12-29T12:33:11 < karlp> so-dimm 67mm, this sipeed thing is only 46.1mm for the module portion
2023-12-29T12:39:45 < karlp> are there any other readily available debug adapters that ship with a 2x5x1.27mm connector other than orbtrace and tigard? hrm. recent BMP does too I guess
2023-12-29T12:45:47 < karlp> lol https://github.com/sipeed/bl602-hal refers to a link fo rthe "Mulan PSL v2" license, but it 404s...
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2023-12-29T12:56:29 < qyx> stlink v3
2023-12-29T12:56:36 < qyx> but it has 2x7
2023-12-29T12:56:45 < qyx> I am using it with 2x5
2023-12-29T12:59:04 < karlp> stlinkv3 is hardlocked to st parts though, fuck that.
2023-12-29T13:01:06 < qyx> I am not very moral in this regard, never used anything else except esp32c3 which I uart-bootloaded
2023-12-29T13:02:04 < qyx> for the others I have a stink v2
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2023-12-29T13:43:20 < jpa-> so, any good ideas for a filesystem suitable for STM32H743 second bank flash? 8 blocks of 128 kB each
2023-12-29T13:43:45 < jpa-> littlefs apparently has some performance issues in finding files from its log structure when flash blocks are large
2023-12-29T13:44:06 < jpa-> and O(eraseblock^2) performance on garbage collection
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2023-12-29T13:46:43 < nomorekaki> why you doing PIC qyx?
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2023-12-29T13:52:28 < qyx> tried spiffs jpa?
2023-12-29T13:52:51 < qyx> nomorekaki: I want to look pro
2023-12-29T13:54:54 < nomorekaki> link you posted is the simplest approach?
2023-12-29T13:55:45 < jpa-> qyx: not yet, but i'm considering it; it seems weird how spiffs 0.3 seems pretty much dead, and spiffs 0.4 is in progress for 6+ years
2023-12-29T13:56:42 < jpa-> might be that i'll just use custom code yet again, i really only need to store a config struct for now
2023-12-29T13:57:27 < nomorekaki> qyx: you have some sort of module system in mind with this?
2023-12-29T13:57:53 < qyx> nomorekaki: that too, I justre-found udynlink
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2023-12-29T14:50:16 < nomorekaki> test.c is twice the size of lib.c
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2023-12-29T15:15:50 < qyx> TIL https://mesonbuild.com/Wrap-dependency-system-manual.html
2023-12-29T15:16:41 < nomorekaki> remind me what static analysis tools there was
2023-12-29T15:41:19 < Steffanx> When you google something semi-random the only result is ... ##stm32 logs.
2023-12-29T15:45:38 < nomorekaki> examples?
2023-12-29T15:46:22 < Steffanx> nrf connect "no python at"
2023-12-29T15:48:21 < nomorekaki> apparently ##stm32 is the bestest of the niche
2023-12-29T15:48:54 < nomorekaki> at least when it comes to public channels or in english channels
2023-12-29T15:50:12 < karlp> stlinkv3 is hardlocked to st parts though, fuck that.
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2023-12-29T16:50:39 < jbo> steffan country doing high production stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vN6Jy50vOz8
2023-12-29T16:52:54 < karlp> expected that sort of thing from mawk
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2023-12-29T16:56:07 < nomorekaki> sefan
2023-12-29T16:58:05 < jbo> time to compile 427 ports/packages to test a change in a makefile
2023-12-29T17:09:44 < Steffanx> lol jbo could be worse
2023-12-29T17:09:54 < Steffanx> As long as you skip when the boom boom starts
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2023-12-29T17:56:24 < jbo> wat?
2023-12-29T17:57:07 < qyx> wat?
2023-12-29T18:04:48 < nomorekaki> wat?
2023-12-29T18:12:01 -!- ferdna [~ferdna@user/ferdna] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
2023-12-29T18:20:52 < Steffanx> wat?
2023-12-29T18:27:51 < qyx> do you know boom boom boom, I want you in my room?
2023-12-29T18:28:57 < Steffanx> ofcourse i know this qyx  :)
2023-12-29T18:29:44 < qyx> those times will never return
2023-12-29T18:31:06 < nomorekaki> [destroyed]
2023-12-29T18:31:40 < karlp> wat. I'm hitting some weird limit on event handlers in esp-idf.  iI get a sigtrap, but I can't see what the nullhandler is?!
2023-12-29T18:31:48 < qyx> zyp: hjalp, interwebs failed.. I want to achieve that whenever there is a dependency on a file from within a known directory and the file/directory is not there, it is being git cloned
2023-12-29T18:32:10 < zyp> hmm?
2023-12-29T18:32:33 < karlp> oh fuck autocloning bullshit.
2023-12-29T18:32:41 < zyp> yeah, I'm not a fan
2023-12-29T18:32:44 < qyx> but the catch is I can't make a builder with a directory as a target, it doesn't work, the builder is never called.. I can't enumerate all the files either in an emmiter because I don't know their names
2023-12-29T18:33:01 < qyx> and if I do an explicit DEpends, it depcycles
2023-12-29T18:33:26 < qyx> karlp: I don't see any other solution when the set of cloned repositories depends on kconfig and is > 10 repos
2023-12-29T18:33:52 < qyx> I can't clone all of them with submodules nor manually nor whatever
2023-12-29T18:34:09 < qyx> I want the thing to be maintainable and not a nightmare as with submodules
2023-12-29T18:34:12 < karlp> why not?
2023-12-29T18:34:17 < zyp> in any case, don't do the cloning as a build step, just do it when you process the sconscript
2023-12-29T18:35:15 < zyp> i.e. do an explicit check that a repo is cloned and clone it immediately if not, without making a build step out of it
2023-12-29T18:35:42 < qyx> hm ok but then I don't have all the other functionality
2023-12-29T18:35:53 < zyp> what other functionality?
2023-12-29T18:36:48 < qyx> dependency driven things like in openwrt, sometimes the repo needs to be patched, compiled on its own, etc.
2023-12-29T18:36:51 < qyx> but only when required
2023-12-29T18:37:38 < zyp> are you reinventing bitbake?
2023-12-29T18:38:39 < qyx> hm
2023-12-29T18:40:16 < qyx> yes
2023-12-29T18:40:23 < qyx> that's sad
2023-12-29T18:40:55 < qyx> I knew I should not have asked you
2023-12-29T18:41:13  * qyx reading bitbake tutorial
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2023-12-29T18:53:01 < qyx> ok I don't want it
2023-12-29T18:53:09 < karlp> p legacylol
2023-12-29T18:53:46 < qyx> it is a fucking mess
2023-12-29T18:57:28 < nomorekaki> what is bitbake?
2023-12-29T18:57:41 < jbo> qyx, I did two yocto projects recently - anything I can help out with?
2023-12-29T18:58:18 < zyp> I didn't mean reinventing bitbake as a good thing
2023-12-29T18:58:24 < zyp> I kinda hate it
2023-12-29T18:58:25 < jbo> nomorekaki, bitbake is the build tool of the yocto project
2023-12-29T18:58:37 < zyp> as in
2023-12-29T18:58:40 < ventYl> OE flashback
2023-12-29T18:58:48 < jbo> ventYl, that is OE, yes.
2023-12-29T18:58:54 < zyp> bitbake is pretty shit, but I'm not sure there's really a less shitty way to solve the same problems
2023-12-29T18:59:02 < jbo> zyp, +1
2023-12-29T18:59:03 < qyx> zyp: meson
2023-12-29T18:59:08 < qyx> apparently
2023-12-29T18:59:16 < karlp> deciding that the problem is something to support solving is perhaps the root problem.
2023-12-29T18:59:19 < ventYl> jbo: I remember it from days when I fiddled with OpenEmbedded & Opie on my ipaq h2215
2023-12-29T19:01:32 < karlp> (my weird ESp thing seemed to have been insufficient task stack.  adding a bunch of pritnfs caused it to detect a stack overflow, and expanding the task stacks for freertos made the problem go away... booooo)
2023-12-29T19:04:45 < nomorekaki> is there easy way to see my librarys ram maximum footprint statically?
2023-12-29T19:05:22 < zyp> maybe
2023-12-29T19:05:32 < ventYl> as long as you don't use malloc, mostly yes
2023-12-29T19:05:43 < nomorekaki> no mallocs allowed
2023-12-29T19:06:10 < zyp> indirect calls are also an issue
2023-12-29T19:06:26 < zyp> and recursion
2023-12-29T19:06:46 < ventYl> here kaki has to specify, what exactly he means by RAM
2023-12-29T19:06:58 < zyp> stack, I assume
2023-12-29T19:07:04 < ventYl> and if malloc is not allowed, I guess that recursion is neither
2023-12-29T19:07:11 < nomorekaki> hmm my library does indirect calls to callback
2023-12-29T19:07:14 < nomorekaki> should not matter
2023-12-29T19:07:24 < nomorekaki> also no recursion
2023-12-29T19:07:45 < zyp> well, if you can say you don't need to count indirect calls, it's easy enough
2023-12-29T19:08:12 < ventYl> that's fairly typical: "oh welcome; by the way malloc is forbidden. please take a seat; recursion is also forbidden, just to mention it"
2023-12-29T19:08:48 < ventYl> qyx: the problem which bitbake / buildroot solve is kind-of spanning competence area of two different tools
2023-12-29T19:09:09 < zyp> just have gcc spit out the frame sizes and callgraph, then just do a search and add through the callgraph
2023-12-29T19:09:27 < qyx> I don't mind, I want to do "make-everything", wait and have the result
2023-12-29T19:10:13 < zyp> nomorekaki, here's some shit I played with a decade ago: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/j4TBZ.png
2023-12-29T19:10:19 < qyx> and wrt patches, I am not forking every single repo and doing adjustments and using the forked repo in my build
2023-12-29T19:10:42 < nomorekaki> zyp: exactly
2023-12-29T19:10:46 < nomorekaki> I want such graph too
2023-12-29T19:10:50 < nomorekaki> :)
2023-12-29T19:11:01 < nomorekaki> diagram*
2023-12-29T19:11:49 < nomorekaki> that's done by hand?
2023-12-29T19:12:02 < ventYl> qyx: are all the repositories under your control?
2023-12-29T19:12:32 < zyp> nomorekaki, no, gcc outputs the data and I wrote some script to make a graph from it
2023-12-29T19:12:44 < zyp> I'll see if I can find it
2023-12-29T19:12:48 < nomorekaki> :O
2023-12-29T19:15:13 < qyx> ventYl: no
2023-12-29T19:16:16 < ventYl> qyx: umm, cmake external_project would probably do it, I am not sure about patches. never tried it
2023-12-29T19:20:23 < zyp> nomorekaki, hmm, not sure I've got the script around still, never ended up using it for anything since indirect calls made it kinda useless
2023-12-29T19:20:43 < nomorekaki> hmm I guess I have indirect calls too
2023-12-29T19:20:44 < zyp> nomorekaki, anyway, you want -fstack-usage to get the stack usage report
2023-12-29T19:21:00 < zyp> and some way to dig out the call graph too
2023-12-29T19:25:30 < nomorekaki> especially with higher optimization levels there is a lot of calls to __XmulXhisi something
2023-12-29T19:26:36 < nomorekaki> even when not directly multiplying anything
2023-12-29T19:27:17 < ventYl> isn't that some kind of optimization?
2023-12-29T19:28:25 < nomorekaki> those are asm
2023-12-29T19:28:39 < nomorekaki> in case of avr at least
2023-12-29T19:29:07 < fenugrec> avr32F103 ? or avrF84
2023-12-29T19:29:27 < nomorekaki> 8bit
2023-12-29T19:30:37 < fenugrec> off topic, but microchip compiler could produce nice callgraph and stack usage output. Very much needed on shitty stackless PIC16* 
2023-12-29T19:31:17 < fenugrec> dunno if they do that for AVR targets though
2023-12-29T19:33:00 < nomorekaki> hmm maybe move my project there
2023-12-29T19:33:24 < nomorekaki> ah microchip compiler
2023-12-29T19:33:26 < ventYl> does microchip offer compiler for AVR?
2023-12-29T19:33:47 < jbo> AFAIK it's GCC these days
2023-12-29T19:33:51 < ventYl> PIC had to have their own compiler, but atmel effectively migrated to gcc years ago 
2023-12-29T19:33:58 < fenugrec> dunno, I wonder if they adopted whatever atmel had, or they just went 'eh gcc supports it'
2023-12-29T19:34:00 < jbo> they used to have their own compiler back in the 2007 days
2023-12-29T19:34:04 < ventYl> maybe you can get keil
2023-12-29T19:34:10 < nomorekaki> there is xc8 something
2023-12-29T19:34:19 < nomorekaki> that must be for pic
2023-12-29T19:34:33 < fenugrec> ah ok. well gcc never did 8-bit targets really well I think. Yes xc8 is for pic and does the soft-stack and callgraph stuff
2023-12-29T19:34:55 < nomorekaki> https://www.microchip.com/en-us/tools-resources/develop/mplab-xc-compilers
2023-12-29T19:36:00 < ventYl> fenugrec: gcc 9+ does AVR quite well
2023-12-29T19:37:29 < fenugrec> ventYl good to know... maybe AVR is better adapted to C, also. Everything just falls apart when you don't have a proper stack
2023-12-29T19:37:33 < nomorekaki> I think I will stick to gcc
2023-12-29T19:38:12 < ventYl> fenugrec: well, PIC sucks, let's start with it
2023-12-29T19:38:34 < fenugrec> I cannot gainsay that
2023-12-29T19:38:39 < ventYl> it probably is still alive just because there are people with weird fetishes out there
2023-12-29T19:38:42 < ventYl> and automotive industry
2023-12-29T19:38:44 < qyx> life sucks to be precise
2023-12-29T19:39:19 < fenugrec> it has a place if you're in that narrow venn intersection of "very high volume" and "optimize low current". I think the small pic cores are hard to beat there
2023-12-29T19:43:06 < ventYl> are they? I take this information as at least decade old
2023-12-29T19:49:45 < fenugrec> not sure, my info is also dated. example 12f683, standby 1nA @ 2V, operating 8.5uA @ 2V, 32khz, 100uA @ 1MHz
2023-12-29T19:51:26 < fenugrec> seems like that would be hard to beat, but I have nothing to compare to
2023-12-29T19:52:15 < ventYl> Dynamic run mode: down to 49 µA/MHz (with external DC/DC) and 76 µA/MHz (with LDO)
2023-12-29T19:52:18 < ventYl> STM32L0
2023-12-29T19:52:31 < ventYl> sure, one has to find exact description of "down to"
2023-12-29T19:52:45 < fenugrec> ok nice
2023-12-29T19:53:00 < zyp> it's also a question of what it can do at those currents
2023-12-29T19:53:03 < fenugrec> and factor in that a pic8 needs like 10x more instructions to accomplish same task
2023-12-29T19:53:19 < qyx> stm32u5 is even lower
2023-12-29T19:53:31 < ventYl> and 50 - 250x more resources to develop the firmware
2023-12-29T19:53:38 < fenugrec> ^^
2023-12-29T19:53:44 < zyp> I did some work on an old low power AVR project a few months ago
2023-12-29T19:54:11 < ventYl> zyp: I guess that's just the CPU core running with basic essentials, no peripherals
2023-12-29T19:54:17 < zyp> the sort of thing that is designed to run for ten years on a single primary cell soldered to the board
2023-12-29T19:55:02 < ventYl> local company does such stuff for monitoring natural gas pumping and distribution stations
2023-12-29T19:55:04 < fenugrec> although 1nA standby still holds against 32u5 (110nA ?)
2023-12-29T19:55:13 < zyp> power budget was like 30uA average IIRC and it was pretty tight, so I did some work figuring out where the power actually went, found and fixed a bug and cut it by half
2023-12-29T19:57:08 < ventYl> some time ago, there was a series of posts on making AVR to do something useful running off electrolytic capacitor
2023-12-29T19:57:46 < ventYl> guy managed to get like 1 week of running time doing temperature measurements and writing values into eeprom on single "charge"
2023-12-29T19:58:04 < zyp> one of the issues I had was that simply having a wakeup timer running consumes a bunch of power
2023-12-29T19:58:10 < fenugrec> haha nice. well, a 1F supercap I assume ?
2023-12-29T19:58:23 < ventYl> fenugrec: some standard 22uF, or something like that
2023-12-29T19:58:34 < fenugrec> heh
2023-12-29T19:59:16 < ventYl> zyp: yeah, that's something this guy also discovered. AVRs timers and eeprom consume too much energy. he went better using external RTC as wakeup source and writing measurement values into SPI-connected EEPROM
2023-12-29T20:00:08 < zyp> I were adding features to existing hardware
2023-12-29T20:00:32 < zyp> existing firmware only wakes up on external events, I had to add a periodic wakeup
2023-12-29T20:00:59 < zyp> ended up using the watchdog, turned out to be the lowest power periodic wakeup source I could do on that hardware
2023-12-29T20:02:21 < zyp> also, the way I halved the power draw was figuring out that the code that were supposed to turn of the brown out detector when going to sleep weren't working properly
2023-12-29T20:03:03 < zyp> it requires some stuff to be done within a few cycles of each other, and it was like one cycle off
2023-12-29T20:04:15 < zyp> that was really fun to work out, because I had seemingly identical working/failing C sources and the generated code was also almost identical, just some minor differences in instruction order
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2023-12-29T20:06:54 < ventYl> fenugrec: http://heliosoph.mit-links.info/arduino-powered-by-capacitor-start/ it is probably this post
2023-12-29T20:09:48 < ventYl> 2x 4700uF
2023-12-29T20:10:00 < fenugrec> yeah
2023-12-29T20:10:16 < qyx> probably 90% of the power consumption is the leakage itself
2023-12-29T20:10:32 < fenugrec> he's probably using around as much as leakage from the 'lytics
2023-12-29T20:11:28 < qyx> LR41 looks more appealing
2023-12-29T20:11:56 < qyx> with an enormouns amount of capacity, around 25 mAh at 1V5
2023-12-29T20:11:59 < ventYl> qyx: yeah, leakage turned out to be the biggest power consumer
2023-12-29T20:12:41 < qyx> idk if theres is any cheaper and smaller consumer battery out there
2023-12-29T20:12:53 < qyx> available at walmart/lidl/whatever
2023-12-29T20:13:34 < fenugrec> that's pretty small
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2023-12-29T20:45:54 < nomorekaki> PICs are cheap cheap
2023-12-29T20:46:12 < nomorekaki> *just cheap compared to AVR
2023-12-29T20:47:06 < nomorekaki> thats why sometimes there is PIC or two inside medium-high volume product
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2023-12-29T20:52:34 < Steffanx> Is nomorekaki using a newish AVR. Those things changed A LOT.
2023-12-29T20:52:59 < nomorekaki> I think I advertised the new generations on this channel years ago!
2023-12-29T20:53:13 < ventYl> new-ish AVRs: "waking up the cadaver"
2023-12-29T20:54:47 < specing> nomorekaki: yeah, at some point the increased R&D expense gets outpaced by cents saved per product
2023-12-29T20:55:16 < nomorekaki> the cheapest PIC is like 8cents or something
2023-12-29T20:55:32 < nomorekaki> you cannot even compile C to it you have to asm iirc.
2023-12-29T20:55:50 < ventYl> specing: maybe in million-piece volumes
2023-12-29T20:56:07 < nomorekaki> yes medium-high volume
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2023-12-29T20:56:39 < fenugrec> I've used some of those 10F20x pics, sot23-6. 256 instructions flash... I wanted the small package to fit in a db9 shell. No C on that for sure
2023-12-29T20:56:44 < ventYl> specing: if you assume $100 / hr of R&D work, then cutting $0.5 will save 6 days worth of R&D per 10 000 pieces
2023-12-29T20:57:22 -!- hsv [~unknown@user/hsv] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
2023-12-29T21:00:44 < ventYl> you're gonna spend that time later when you figure out that this cheaper part is no fit for your next gen and you have to redesign the whole thing for newer parts
2023-12-29T21:02:47 < fenugrec> heh
2023-12-29T21:06:16 < ventYl> when speaking about PIC, I guess that lack of reasonable support of C drives R&D costs per hour up quite rapidly
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2023-12-29T21:47:50 < nomorekaki> musics?
2023-12-29T22:10:40 < zyp> hmm, feedforward term works better if I multiply with setpoint rather than feedback…
2023-12-29T22:13:25 < BrainDamage> that's what feedforward is supposed to do, otherwise it's just another P coefficient
2023-12-29T22:14:03 < zyp> yeah, I just had a brainfart when I implemented it
2023-12-29T22:38:00 < jpa-> for the FOC target current -> PWM duty PID controller, you may want to add a second feedforward that multiplies by the measured RPM
2023-12-29T22:38:51 < jpa-> it helps it keep torque more constant in sudden speed changes, if that is what you want; on the other hand, if you want to keep a constant speed, it is helpful that the torque tends to temporarily increase
2023-12-29T22:41:45 < zyp> I'll play more with it later
2023-12-29T22:42:54 < zyp> FPGA implementation seems better behaved than when I had a linuxcnc PID in the loop, presumably because it's faster and has consistent latency
2023-12-29T22:43:43 < zyp> except now it oscillates when q pid saturates, looks like d pid is doing something weird
2023-12-29T22:44:23 < zyp> suspect I've got a little ADC offset that's throwing it off
2023-12-29T22:45:07 < zyp> anyway, it's good enough for testing, need to refactor the HDL so I can put it on the robot
2023-12-29T22:45:33 < zyp> maybe I'll try it on the robot tomorrow if I've got time
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2023-12-29T23:44:18 < Laurenceb_> https://www.arterytek.com/en/product/AT32F435.jsp?t=1648202203321
2023-12-29T23:44:25 < Laurenceb_> moar stm32 clonez
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--- Day changed la joulu 30 2023
2023-12-30T00:03:11 < specing> arterytek lol
2023-12-30T00:05:24 < qyx> certified for pacemakers
2023-12-30T00:08:14 < qyx> Han(r) series
2023-12-30T00:08:26 < qyx> harting shakes
2023-12-30T00:09:10 < qyx> fenugrec: hm qfn28 is probably smaller than sot23-6
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2023-12-30T00:39:32 < Laurenceb_> https://youtu.be/uSECi0_OFuU?t=911
2023-12-30T00:39:34 < Laurenceb_> kek
2023-12-30T00:46:54 < nomorekaki> hello lurence
2023-12-30T00:47:06 < jbo> lolrence still alive
2023-12-30T00:47:08 < jbo> nice
2023-12-30T00:47:38 < nomorekaki> he is
2023-12-30T00:48:09 < karlp> Laurenceb_:arterytek has been around for a while now really, get with the program.
2023-12-30T00:48:39 < Laurenceb_> I was lolling at the laptop background
2023-12-30T00:49:48 < karlp> qyx: what was wrong with openwrt's buildroot?
2023-12-30T00:50:07 < karlp> it lets you use patches, or git repos, as you prefer, and you can have feeds of both.
2023-12-30T00:50:22 < karlp> I presume you wanted a different RFS?
2023-12-30T01:01:51 < fenugrec> anybody used https://drawtiming.sourceforge.net/samples.html for generating timing diagrams for docs etc. ? looks nice, albeit not maintained anymore
2023-12-30T01:02:08 < zyp> why not wavedrom?
2023-12-30T01:02:49 < fenugrec> zyp saw that, seems web-based only ?
2023-12-30T01:04:32 < zyp> https://github.com/wavedrom/cli
2023-12-30T01:04:40 < fenugrec> duh
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2023-12-30T01:25:26 < qyx> karlp: nothing but I want that functionality for some other project
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2023-12-30T01:48:06 < karlp> huh, never knew wavedrom had cli either.
2023-12-30T01:54:30 < karlp> I love "select your interests" https://bin.jvnv.net/file/b5xUK.png
2023-12-30T01:55:34 < qyx> looks like 2450 MHz defrosting is out of question
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2023-12-30T02:11:46 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.net/RandomSprint/status/1740734133448683759#m
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2023-12-30T02:24:05 < ColdKeyboard> Anyone recalls when did WS281x LEDs came around?
2023-12-30T02:29:10 < qyx> I would say 2010 +- 3y
2023-12-30T02:29:23 < karlp> worldsemi founded 2007.
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2023-12-30T02:33:08 < karlp> fuckin https://qmk.fm/converter/ doesnt work because of cors bullshit
2023-12-30T02:35:46 < ventYl> pvgis does not work too. and they even documented they are not going to fix it
2023-12-30T02:36:24 < ventYl> ok, I have bent Doxygen to almost not look like a Java application from 1998, I can even go and get some sleep
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2023-12-30T06:04:30 < ColdKeyboard> karlp You mentioned qmk. Do you know any QMK port that works on those cheap CH55x macro keyboards?
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2023-12-30T11:39:10 < qyx> nah libopencm3 fixed INT0_1 swap for fdcan and it broke my code
2023-12-30T11:57:36 < Steffanx> You're doing it wrong qyx 
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2023-12-30T12:17:00 < qyx> karl was doing something with fdcan, so he was fixing things
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2023-12-30T13:54:44 < nomorekaki> I think I have buffer leak in my test code :O
2023-12-30T13:54:59 < nomorekaki> when array has only one test case it's fine
2023-12-30T13:55:26 < nomorekaki> when it has 2 the last one will fail no matter which is last
2023-12-30T14:17:25 < Steffanx> Time to write test code for you test code nomorekaki 
2023-12-30T14:17:33 < Steffanx> Its time.
2023-12-30T14:17:37 < zyp> mawk, 3(i + 1) < 2i + 3(u + 1)
2023-12-30T14:40:33 < nomorekaki> Steffanx: it seems there is problem in writing initial values to the frame buffer
2023-12-30T14:40:49 < nomorekaki> it has the values from the previous run
2023-12-30T14:43:56 < nomorekaki> void bsd_buffer_pos_cpy_to(const bsd_context_t * const context, uint_fast8_t pos, const bsd_frame_buffer_t * const cpy_from){
2023-12-30T14:44:16 < nomorekaki> const type * const context
2023-12-30T14:44:33 < nomorekaki> how to copy to const :o
2023-12-30T14:46:01 < nomorekaki> why there is no warnings
2023-12-30T14:46:04 < qyx> wat
2023-12-30T14:46:48 < qyx> also uint_fast8_t, I have never seen it used anywhere
2023-12-30T14:49:17 < nomorekaki> I use it instead of unsigned char
2023-12-30T15:06:32 < nomorekaki> hmm it doesn't even hit initial buffer copy loop in the second index
2023-12-30T15:06:51 < nomorekaki> but it does hit error conditions bellow it
2023-12-30T15:11:37 < nomorekaki> for(uint_fast8_t i;...
2023-12-30T15:11:39 < Steffanx> Will we see nomorekaki's project one day?
2023-12-30T15:11:42 < nomorekaki> no
2023-12-30T15:11:56 < Steffanx> Awh.
2023-12-30T15:12:05 < nomorekaki> it's invisible
2023-12-30T15:12:47 < Steffanx> I see
2023-12-30T15:14:41 < BrainDamage> no, you don't
2023-12-30T15:16:22 < Steffanx> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=I+see I hear you.
2023-12-30T15:18:17 < qyx> I see
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2023-12-30T15:33:57 < nomorekaki> writing test cases really works
2023-12-30T15:35:13 < nomorekaki> per function tests have crushed at least one bug for one function
2023-12-30T15:36:54 < nomorekaki> >1bugs/function
2023-12-30T15:37:20 < nomorekaki> time to build a sauna>
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2023-12-30T17:12:13 < jpa-> meh, STM32H743 16-bit ADC; 2 mV crosstalk between two ADC channels
2023-12-30T17:12:35 < jpa-> sampletime seems to affect it in unpredictable ways (longer is not necessarily better)
2023-12-30T17:13:01 < jpa-> ADC inputs driven by 10 MHz opamp, they settle within 50 ns when viewed with scope, sample time > 1 µs
2023-12-30T17:14:04 < jpa-> ADC input and VREF look stable on scope, but difficult to be sure for 2 mV errors
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2023-12-30T18:34:36 < karlp> ColdKeyboard: I have never used qmk before this current project. I have no idea.
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2023-12-30T18:39:58 < karlp> this just looks like normal contactS? what are phoenix talking about here? https://www.eenewseurope.com/en/pcb-terminal-block-for-spe-single-pair-ethernet/
2023-12-30T18:42:59 < Steffanx> Wil your next keyboard use zmk?
2023-12-30T19:01:20 < zyp> karlp, blue/white color coding, as I understand it
2023-12-30T19:08:18 < qyx> they are awful
2023-12-30T19:19:28 < qyx> meh but it is 2023, being green is not enough, we need to be creative
2023-12-30T19:20:32 < qyx> the only creative connectors I have seen lately are coax IDC
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2023-12-30T19:43:52 < jpa-> i wonder why i get two ADC sampling spikes 120 ns apart, even though i should have sample time of 1µs and samplerate of 300kHz
2023-12-30T19:43:57 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/stm32h7_adc_sample.png
2023-12-30T19:45:18 < zyp> one for when the mux switches, one for when the sampling starts?
2023-12-30T19:47:14 < jpa-> hmm, could be
2023-12-30T19:47:55 < jpa-> somehow i wasn't able to get the crosstalk in controlled situation, so might be something in my analog stuff
2023-12-30T19:48:30 < jpa-> but the DC offset changes also, but multimeter shows exact same value down to 0.01 mV on ADC input
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2023-12-30T19:59:46 < machinehum> hello stm32
2023-12-30T20:00:06 < zyp> sup machinehum 
2023-12-30T20:00:13 < machinehum> Anyone know of a commerical / consumer 18650 battery testing unit
2023-12-30T20:00:26 < machinehum> Like say I'm a person that's recycling a lot of 18650 cells
2023-12-30T20:00:40 < zyp> isn't aliexpress full of the stuff?
2023-12-30T20:01:07 < machinehum> I basically want to slam them into a holder, it to charge them up to 4.2V, test their discharge rates, monitor their temp and maybe update a datebase
2023-12-30T20:01:11 < machinehum> zyp: maybe
2023-12-30T20:01:19 < zyp> https://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-battery-tester.html
2023-12-30T20:01:21 < machinehum> have like 12 holders
2023-12-30T20:01:58 < zyp> so e.g. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005968571255.html
2023-12-30T20:03:47 < machinehum> Yeah
2023-12-30T20:04:02 < machinehum> I guess there' a lot of people in China that do exactly what I'm saying
2023-12-30T20:05:40 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/stm32h7_offset_change.png  hmm, scope *does* show the 2 mV change, just like STM32 measures.. why doesn't multimeter show it
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2023-12-30T20:06:43 < machinehum> jpa-: What is this?
2023-12-30T20:10:25 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/stm32h7_ripple.png   ah.. zoomed out it makes a lot more sense
2023-12-30T20:11:08 < jpa-> i wonder *what* is oscillating synchronous to the ADC sampling
2023-12-30T20:11:11 < jpa-> but something is
2023-12-30T20:11:48 < jpa-> and the phase of the oscillation is changing.. had to use scope averaging to see that tiny ripple below all the noise
2023-12-30T20:12:06 < jpa-> machinehum: some high voltage generator/measurement tool thingy
2023-12-30T20:13:17 < machinehum> How high voltage?
2023-12-30T20:18:18 < jpa-> 6kV
2023-12-30T20:19:08 < jpa-> so looks like synchronizing ADC sampling to the flyback PWM wasn't such a smart thing to do; the ringing of the flyback couples tiny bit to the ADC lines, and because of synchronous sampling it doesn't average out
2023-12-30T20:23:36 < fenugrec> can you keep it synchronized but with a fixed delay to sample after the ringing
2023-12-30T20:24:53 < jpa-> the ringing just keeps going until next pulse
2023-12-30T20:24:59 < fenugrec> ah
2023-12-30T20:25:11 < jpa-> but looks like just basic free running ADC works a lot better
2023-12-30T20:25:22 < jpa-> and i thought i was *avoiding* problems by synchronizing ADC & PWM
2023-12-30T20:25:28 < fenugrec> good ol averaging
2023-12-30T20:27:34 < jpa-> still get 0.15 mV offset but that is already 10x less, and already below the ADC linearity spec of 0.2 mV
2023-12-30T20:29:35 < jpa-> (the ADC offset calibration also gets +- 0.1 mV difference between runs)
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2023-12-30T22:07:19 < qyx> jpa-: so wjat was the problem
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2023-12-30T22:13:40 < jpa-> qyx: timer controls PWM to flyback SMPS; i thought i was smart synchronizing ADC with the PWM period "to avoid noise"; but turns out because of ringing in the flyback, the synchronizing was actually making the noise more significant in ADC results
2023-12-30T22:13:47 < jpa-> whereas when ADC runs freely, it averages out
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2023-12-30T22:22:03 < qyx> oh
2023-12-30T22:22:16 < qyx> are you continuing with your HV gen?
2023-12-30T22:22:28 < qyx> I have some spare keyboards
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2023-12-30T23:29:07 < nomorekaki> sauna perkele
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2023-12-30T23:31:52 < qyx> ar you molten yet
2023-12-30T23:32:29 < nomorekaki> no
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2023-12-30T23:40:56 < qyx> sauning not intensive enough then
2023-12-30T23:43:37 < nomorekaki> it was the end of saunaing championship when competitors melted in sauna
2023-12-30T23:45:18 < nomorekaki> one of those weird competitions that are fun and stuff until someone starts competing seriously
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2023-12-30T23:55:53 < PaulFertser> "If the city was to organize the World Sauna Championships in the future, the original playful and joyous characteristics of the event should be reintroduced. No ways to achieve this have been found."
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--- Day changed su joulu 31 2023
2023-12-31T00:02:03 < nomorekaki> it became dead serious competition
2023-12-31T00:20:48 < qyx> writing documentation of an opensource project with style "sorry, no C89, no C99, it is 2023, moving to C23 the next year"
2023-12-31T00:21:03 < zyp> :)
2023-12-31T00:21:06 < qyx> "that means GCC is the only supported compiler"
2023-12-31T00:21:14 < qyx> with LLVM as an option in the future
2023-12-31T00:21:45 < qyx> I am expecting all monsters will hate me and eat me
2023-12-31T00:22:09 < qyx> "no FreeRTOS-style bloatware with millions of platforms and supported processors"
2023-12-31T00:22:38 < zyp> what is this?
2023-12-31T00:22:38 < qyx> "sorry, no esp32, COrtex-M supported only with RISC-V once a mature MCU is available"
2023-12-31T00:22:50 < qyx> daq framework I am working at since 2015
2023-12-31T00:23:14 < zyp> sounds kinda similar to my design goals for laks
2023-12-31T00:23:42 < qyx> yeah I plan to integrate a bit of laks, namely your startup and linker scripts :P
2023-12-31T00:23:47 < zyp> :)
2023-12-31T00:23:52 < qyx> and get rid of libopencm3
2023-12-31T00:24:24 < zyp> in my case it's no extensa, esp32-c3 and friends is fine
2023-12-31T00:24:42 < qyx> same here basically
2023-12-31T00:24:51 < qyx> but esp32-c3 is very basic to be useful
2023-12-31T00:25:00 < qyx> atm
2023-12-31T00:25:02 < zyp> and strictly speaking it probably wouldn't be too hard to support xtensa either if you can get a proper compiler for it
2023-12-31T00:25:21 < qyx> it is hassle for the scheduler part
2023-12-31T00:25:40 < qyx> you would need 3
2023-12-31T00:26:28 < zyp> for context switching, yes
2023-12-31T00:31:29 < nomorekaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrlrbfGZo2k here is the hacking train "DRM"s in Poland
2023-12-31T00:32:43 < nomorekaki> there was more of the story than GPS fencing that was actually rare case lock while 10day inoperation lock seems to be the most common
2023-12-31T00:32:48 < qyx> yeah I have seen that one suggested to me by youtubez
2023-12-31T00:33:22 < qyx> somebody pasted an article about it recently
2023-12-31T00:33:26 < nomorekaki> if train doesn't exceed 60kmh for 3minutes every 10days it locks up and needs certified mechanic and replacing parts etc.
2023-12-31T00:33:28 < qyx> maybe Thorn ?
2023-12-31T00:37:27 < nomorekaki> apparenly military is plagued with new tech being closed too
2023-12-31T00:38:09 < karlp> I never understood why people stuck with c89 for so long, eschewing c99, but at least nowadays it seems non-controversial to use c11 or more out of the box.
2023-12-31T00:38:13 < nomorekaki> some higher tech weapon systems need civilian operators to be carried along that are working for the company that builds the system
2023-12-31T00:38:20 < karlp> hang on, I'm in the scrollback again.
2023-12-31T00:38:22 < karlp> doh
2023-12-31T00:38:54 < karlp> zyp: thanks, I didn't know blue/white was a thing for SPE.  I guess that fixes the problem of no standard connector....
2023-12-31T00:41:04 < zyp> I'm not sure how big a thing it is, but yeah
2023-12-31T00:43:39 < karlp> speaking of xtensa, openocd-esp32 is getting more work on getting into upstream, it's slowly happening!
2023-12-31T00:44:41 < zyp> it's not necessarily that xtensa and xtensa support is bad, but more that I don't really want to maintain support for it
2023-12-31T00:49:19 < fenugrec> hacking a subscription-based train, love it
2023-12-31T00:50:09 < nomorekaki> they didn't know they were subscribing
2023-12-31T00:50:35 < nomorekaki> is there a law agains't selling something and not telling it's actually subscription service?
2023-12-31T00:50:40 < qyx> it is agains the law here
2023-12-31T00:51:00 < qyx> and I would say in poland too, hence they implemented it as hidden
2023-12-31T00:51:33 < qyx> that's the usual way, to hide enough things that you have to contract the original manufacturer to do the servicing
2023-12-31T00:52:51 < qyx> even in usa they have that "right to repair" now because of john deere or what was the exact story
2023-12-31T00:54:05 < fenugrec> JD did push a lot of RtR action, but I don't think there have been many wins in US/CAN
2023-12-31T00:54:47 < nomorekaki> jd leged up their dealers etc with closed tools that are required for serialization etc. or something
2023-12-31T00:55:30 < nomorekaki> and certified repair shops
2023-12-31T00:56:07 < qyx> they are not the only one
2023-12-31T00:56:44 < nomorekaki> one german car brand at least
2023-12-31T00:56:56 < nomorekaki> tools have gps fencing and shit
2023-12-31T00:58:23 < qyx> I did a complaint to a trade inspection here (or what is the proper name for it) because the electric boiler manufacturer did omit a part of the manual describing starting the boiler for the first time, configuring, etc. with access codes (the menu was code protected)
2023-12-31T00:59:43 < qyx> so I was not able to start the automatic "de-gas" cycle, do a system check, limit the maximum power, set the pump mode, etc.
2023-12-31T01:00:02 < qyx> I had to pay the certified boiler-man to come and enter the code and set things up
2023-12-31T01:00:24 < qyx> but I didn't finish the paperwork, so meh :S
2023-12-31T01:31:53 < ventYl> nomorekaki: at least in automotive, there is a block exception, so that everyone is allowed to produce spare parts and manufacturer can't prevent it, legally or technically
2023-12-31T01:32:14 < ventYl> IIRC, they are even mandated to give competition access to diagnostic tools and protocols
2023-12-31T01:32:37 < nomorekaki> interesting
2023-12-31T01:32:45 < nomorekaki> but not make them public?
2023-12-31T01:32:57 < nomorekaki> does that include every part in the car?
2023-12-31T01:33:17 < ventYl> it does not need to be public, OEMs usually sell this information
2023-12-31T01:33:36 < ventYl> price tag is usually a good motivation that you won't make it public
2023-12-31T01:35:44 < nomorekaki> so is there anything given for free but non-public?
2023-12-31T01:35:50 < ventYl> nope
2023-12-31T01:36:12 < nomorekaki> how to set the price so that it can be considered "available"?
2023-12-31T01:36:29 < ventYl> IDK, I've never been part of this process
2023-12-31T01:37:25 < ventYl> and aftermarket suppliers usually go after high-volume sells, so they do body and drivetrain parts first and only later manufacture "smart" parts, which have high failure rate
2023-12-31T01:46:08 < qyx> sphinx pros, I am getting a very weird behaviour
2023-12-31T01:46:58 < qyx> when I use :ref:`Services` I get an error WARNING: undefined label: 'services'
2023-12-31T01:48:19 < qyx> ok when I run the compilation for the second time, the warning disappears, but the ref doesn't work (implicit target = section name)
2023-12-31T01:51:06 < qyx> ok it is totally nondeterministic
2023-12-31T01:51:25 < qyx> when I make a explicit label with the correct name, compile, doesn§t work
2023-12-31T01:51:31 < qyx> compile again, doesn$t work
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2023-12-31T01:51:42 < qyx> make a random change, compile, breaks everything
2023-12-31T01:51:50 < qyx> revert the random change, compile, reference now works
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2023-12-31T01:55:18 < ventYl> quality software
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2023-12-31T12:41:27 < qyx> how's the innovation going the last day of 2023?
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2023-12-31T13:24:58 < srk> well, have this working :set uart4.brr.div_mantissa = 0x123
2023-12-31T13:27:23 < PaulFertser> srk: seeing your Haskell is special. It's kind of intimidating that one has to know about monad transformers to just talk to OpenOCD :)
2023-12-31T13:27:32 < PaulFertser> srk: very cool work you're doing there.
2023-12-31T13:28:34 < srk> PaulFertser: <3 
2023-12-31T13:29:07 < srk> you could do w/o transformers but I'm bad with them so I need to practice :D
2023-12-31T13:29:45 < srk> hgdbmi is done in similar manner, bit more uglier but I've improved it a bit as well recently
2023-12-31T13:31:24 < srk> PaulFertser: btw I've implemented mdw first just to realize I don't need it at all as the parsed result was pretty much the same as read-memory which I've discovered later, so I deleted that and only kept read/write-memory :)
2023-12-31T13:33:21 < srk> fun thing with transformes is that you can stack hdbg/hocd/haskeline/whatnot easily, like shells do. or for some test automation thingie. I've had a similar thingie that used effect system (polysemy) before but will rewrite it later using "boring" transformers
2023-12-31T13:33:29 < PaulFertser> srk: if one wants OpenOCD interface to be a Monad then well, you can't do much without IO so
2023-12-31T13:34:42 < srk> yeah, the MonadOCD actually requires MonadIO
2023-12-31T13:37:40 < srk> PaulFertser: btw I think this is the first time I've managed to write a clean request/response thingie using typeclasses, so it was great learning experience :)
2023-12-31T13:39:14 < srk> tempted to do similar thingie for hgdmi but that one is way larger (I didn't write it originally, just added a monadic interface that isn't pain to use)
2023-12-31T13:42:02 < PaulFertser> srk: I really have very little clue so can't fully appreciate
2023-12-31T13:44:26 < srk> PaulFertser: hehe, your example wasn't bad at all! just a tad dependency heavy
2023-12-31T13:44:52 < PaulFertser> srk: just attoparsec ;)
2023-12-31T13:44:56 < srk> I quite enjoy writing ByteString/Text parsers recently :D
2023-12-31T13:45:11 < srk> yeah, attoparsec I love but I've never heard of io-streams 
2023-12-31T13:45:53 < PaulFertser> Probably some attoparsec docs referenced it or something, I do not remember anything, it was so many years ago.
2023-12-31T13:46:20 < srk> but even attoparsec is overkill here, since read-memory response is mostly Data.Text.Read.hexadecimal . words 
2023-12-31T13:47:07 < PaulFertser> I thought it'd come handy later for parsing all kinds of responses (which are actually mostly meant for human parsing so not exactly suitable).
2023-12-31T13:49:07 < srk> indeed, I've considered parsing capture halt response but looks like it might change. will possibly add more commands iff needed but for register viewer read/write/halt is enough
2023-12-31T13:50:38 < srk> like neat thing about attoparsec (and binary/cereal) parsers is incremental parsing but I've hacked around it here to simply fetch enough data from socket till \SUB
2023-12-31T13:51:44 < srk> reminds me.. parser combinators are the reason I've started with haskell :D
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2023-12-31T15:15:47 < qyx> another sphinx story, esp-idf doctrees appeared in my build
2023-12-31T15:15:55 < qyx> the hell is that, I don't even use esp-idf
2023-12-31T15:16:10 < qyx> in this project I mean
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2023-12-31T16:17:00 < mawk> who said mawk
2023-12-31T16:17:24 < mawk> que le coupable se lève 
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2023-12-31T16:54:58 < Steffanx> Mawk 
2023-12-31T16:55:41 < qyx> Steffanx: how's your potato salad?
2023-12-31T16:56:26 < Steffanx> We had potato salad last week. No potato salad today
2023-12-31T16:57:18 < qyx> me too but that doesn't matter
2023-12-31T16:58:43 < Steffanx> Ive  had enough for this year
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2023-12-31T17:32:02 < nomorekaki> potato salad is not that good
2023-12-31T17:38:09 < qyx> you don't understand potato salad
2023-12-31T17:38:51 < nomorekaki> I don't frankly even taste potato salad
2023-12-31T17:40:35 < Steffanx> im not even sure why qyx things i should have potato salad today
2023-12-31T17:40:37 < Steffanx> thinks
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2023-12-31T18:33:37 < emeb_mac> mmmm... taters.
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2023-12-31T20:15:43 < Laurenceb_> final solution for pitbulls
2023-12-31T20:15:45 < Laurenceb_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSKkUnk4HvU
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2023-12-31T22:59:47 < Laurenceb_> https://hackaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/diagonal_linux_desktop_xssfox.jpg?w=800
2023-12-31T22:59:55 < Laurenceb_> kekking hard
2023-12-31T23:07:35 < PaulFertser> Oscilloscope deserves the best place on the desk.
2023-12-31T23:07:52 < PaulFertser> Even if it's just a riglol
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--- Log closed ma tammi 01 00:00:39 2024