--- Log opened ke touko 01 00:00:12 2024
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2024-05-01T00:14:36 < karlp> use HAL they said, it will be fun they said :) https://paste.jvnv.net/view/XlWj3
2024-05-01T00:15:09 < karlp> what the hell is hal doing? it says HAL_UART_Transmit is blocking, and it does it just fine the first time, then just... recalls itself over and over again?!
2024-05-01T00:21:30 < karlp> replacing printf with sprintf(stack_buffer, "blah") and write(1, stack_buffer, strlen(stack_buffer)) fixes it?!
2024-05-01T00:21:32 < karlp> the fuck is this shit
2024-05-01T00:21:53 < karlp> sprintf+puts didn't help at all.
2024-05-01T00:24:50 < karlp> cananyone summarize what u0 has vs c0 and g0?
2024-05-01T00:25:37 < qyx> nothing fancy
2024-05-01T00:27:49 < karlp> man, I've _never_ had anything like _write just... keep getting called like that. it normally either doesn't ever hit, because you've not linked shit properly, or it... works.
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2024-05-01T00:41:41 < karlp> ok, weird, if I copy the st example, and use an __io_putchar or a fputc impl instead, it works?
2024-05-01T00:41:48 < karlp> whatever, not wht I need to fight right now.
2024-05-01T00:43:26 < qyx> https://www.analog.com/en/resources/analog-dialogue/raqs/raq-issue-161.html
2024-05-01T00:43:28 < qyx> weehee
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2024-05-01T01:53:36 < Laurenceb_> fun work project: how to find defects in insulation on HV cables
2024-05-01T01:55:19 < Laurenceb_> problem is that the defects need to be found well before they cause any discharge
2024-05-01T01:55:37 < Laurenceb_> https://railfanguides.us/fr/tgv/TGV001.jpg  HV cable goes along the top of the TGV in cable trough
2024-05-01T01:56:16  * Laurenceb_ could only come up with "soak in radioactive water and use GM tube"
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2024-05-01T02:23:50 < sauce> TDR at 10x the working voltage?
2024-05-01T02:23:56 < sauce> that sounds like some fun instrumentation
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2024-05-01T05:30:00 < digimer> I'm trying to use a float on my Nucleo F030R8, but sprintf shows an empty string for %f... Do I need to do something specific to enable floating point numbers?
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2024-05-01T08:45:51 < jpa-> digimer: yeah, you need sprintf implementation that includes float support; standards-compliant implementation tends to be huge
2024-05-01T08:46:53 < jpa-> you can use e.g. https://github.com/mpaland/printf 
2024-05-01T10:30:29 < qyx> newlib nano includes it if you enable it
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2024-05-01T17:42:12 < mawk> I'm not entirely sure how to use the VREFINT and its calibration values
2024-05-01T17:43:11 < mawk> the VREFINT value (in V) as measured in factory at 30°C is apparently 3.3 * (float)(*(uint16_t *)0x1FF0F44A) / 4096.0;
2024-05-01T17:43:21 < mawk> that seems straightforward enough
2024-05-01T17:43:40 < mawk> and then the value I measure myself from the VREFINT channel will be slightly difference if VDDA is not exactly 3.30V
2024-05-01T17:44:08 < mawk> so I will multiply my ADC values by VREFINT_CAL/VREFINT to re-scale them
2024-05-01T17:44:14 < mawk> does that sound like the right thing
2024-05-01T17:44:33 < mawk> and then I won't have to assume that VDDA is 3.3V anymore
2024-05-01T17:46:01 < mawk> digimer: using stm32cubeide? there is a switch to toggle
2024-05-01T17:46:11 < mawk> same for scanf and floats
2024-05-01T17:46:28 < mawk> but if you toggle that switch and use %f in printf then printf will do dynamic memory allocation
2024-05-01T17:46:33 < mawk> which might or might not work
2024-05-01T17:46:53 < mawk> in a single-task single core environment the defaults provided by stm32cubeide will work fine
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2024-05-01T17:47:05 < mawk> or by the cube MX
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2024-05-01T17:58:54 < mawk> but then what am I doing with the temperature sensor calibration data
2024-05-01T17:59:19 < mawk> they tell us to use a fixed 0.76 value in the datasheet and the reference manual
2024-05-01T17:59:24 < mawk> but they also give us calibration data
2024-05-01T17:59:41 < mawk> I guess I can check if I get the same result or not
2024-05-01T18:08:02 < mawk> I guess the result is similar
2024-05-01T18:08:05 < digimer> mawk: using VS Code
2024-05-01T18:08:13 < mawk> but the temperature varies wildly
2024-05-01T18:08:22 < digimer> I looked for the switch in the Cube MX to enable it, but didn't find it
2024-05-01T18:08:49 < digimer> jpa-: thanks! looking at it now
2024-05-01T18:08:52 < mawk> the switch is in cube ide
2024-05-01T18:08:59 < mawk> but basically it adds a makefile option
2024-05-01T18:09:17 < mawk> -u _printf_float
2024-05-01T18:09:21 < mawk> on the linker commandline
2024-05-01T18:09:52 < digimer> oh, maybe I can add that myself in the Makefile
2024-05-01T18:10:18 < mawk> here are the values I read for VREFINT and VSENSE
2024-05-01T18:10:20 < mawk> https://pastb.in/prowltyroa
2024-05-01T18:10:33 < mawk> the VREFINT_cal values makes sense, but the rest not a lot
2024-05-01T18:10:37 < digimer> should I add '-u _printf_float' to: LDFLAGS = $(MCU) -specs=nano.specs -T$(LDSCRIPT) $(LIBDIR) $(LIBS) -Wl,-Map=$(BUILD_DIR)/$(TARGET).map,--cref -Wl,--gc-sections
2024-05-01T18:10:38 < mawk> it's varying wildly second after second
2024-05-01T18:10:46 < mawk> yes digimer 
2024-05-01T18:10:54 < digimer> thanks!
2024-05-01T18:10:55 < mawk> before the $(LIBDIR)
2024-05-01T18:10:57 < mawk> for instance
2024-05-01T18:11:04 < mawk> the order of options is important
2024-05-01T18:12:06 < digimer> oh, LIBDIR is above that line in my Makefile (generated by CubeMX)
2024-05-01T18:12:16 < digimer> ooooh
2024-05-01T18:12:18 < digimer> I see
2024-05-01T18:12:19 < digimer> thanks
2024-05-01T18:12:43 < digimer> I now have: LDFLAGS = $(MCU) -specs=nano.specs -T$(LDSCRIPT) -u _printf_float $(LIBDIR) $(LIBS) -Wl,-Map=$(BUILD_DIR)/$(TARGET).map,--cref -Wl,--gc-sections 
2024-05-01T18:13:31 < mawk> yes sounds good
2024-05-01T18:13:49 < mawk> if you run cubemx again it will be overwritten though
2024-05-01T18:13:55 < mawk> but not much you can do about thqt
2024-05-01T18:14:48 < digimer> My .bin grew from 19k to 37k! 
2024-05-01T18:14:59 < digimer> I see why it's not enabled by default :)
2024-05-01T18:16:11 < qyx> mawk: why are you dividing by 4096?
2024-05-01T18:18:15 < mawk> because it's a 12 bits reading
2024-05-01T18:18:28 < mawk> 0 is VSSA and 4095 is VDDA
2024-05-01T18:18:29 < mawk> no?
2024-05-01T18:18:40 < mawk> it gives me the right value for VREFINT 
2024-05-01T18:19:00 < mawk> typical 1.21V in the datasheet
2024-05-01T18:19:26 < mawk> so 1.208V as I measure is the right range
2024-05-01T18:19:34 < qyx> yes but full scale is 4095
2024-05-01T18:19:41 < mawk> ah
2024-05-01T18:19:48 < mawk> yeah I already changed that to 4095 in the code
2024-05-01T18:19:52 < mawk> but that's not the problem
2024-05-01T18:19:59 < mawk> the temperature is jumping around like 20°C
2024-05-01T18:20:20 < qyx> what sampling time do you use?
2024-05-01T18:20:23 < mawk> I'm leaving 10ms for the temp sensor to warm up which is more than enough
2024-05-01T18:20:26 < mawk> no idea
2024-05-01T18:20:27 < qyx> there was some limitation
2024-05-01T18:20:27 < mawk> the default
2024-05-01T18:20:34 < mawk> yeah indeed
2024-05-01T18:21:17 < mawk> I think the default is the longest time possible
2024-05-01T18:22:19 < mawk> ah no you're right
2024-05-01T18:22:24 < mawk> the default is the shortest time possible
2024-05-01T18:22:28 < mawk> so that must be the problem
2024-05-01T18:29:20 < mawk> and so for the VSENSE temperature thing do you have an idea
2024-05-01T18:29:22 < mawk> the formula in the RM is 25 + (vsense - vsense_typ_25) / avg_slope
2024-05-01T18:29:24 < mawk> where vsense_type_25 and avg_slope are constants given in the datasheet 
2024-05-01T18:29:26 < mawk> but what I did instead is 30 + (vsense - vsense_cal_30) / vsense_cal_slope
2024-05-01T18:29:49 < mawk> where vsense_cal_30 and vsense_cal_110 are determined at factory and read from memory 
2024-05-01T18:30:06 < mawk> and vsense_cal_slope is just the slope
2024-05-01T18:30:22 < mawk> (vsense_cal_110 - vsense_cal_30)/(110 - 30)
2024-05-01T18:30:48 < mawk> that gives results in the same ballpark as using the DS values, but I hope more precise
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2024-05-01T20:23:01 < qyx> don't hope for any precision?
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2024-05-01T23:09:26 < mawk> my arm yesterday https://i.imgur.com/eaBn0VW.jpeg
2024-05-01T23:09:41 < mawk> yeah qyx I know it's not exactly precise 
2024-05-01T23:09:48 < mawk> I just want to know if the board is on fire or not
2024-05-01T23:16:39 < Steffanx> Receiving your blood would kill me from a methadone overdose mawk.. 
2024-05-01T23:18:51 < zyp> hrm, I hate this fucking bullshit checksums used in IP stuff
2024-05-01T23:19:05 < zyp> in ICMPv6 in this case
2024-05-01T23:19:17 < zyp> pseudoheaders and shit
2024-05-01T23:20:12 < zyp> I have my code responding to NDP solicitations now, but wireshark says the response checksum is wrong, and I don't really see how
2024-05-01T23:20:42 < zyp> and calculating this shit is a hassle
2024-05-01T23:21:52 < mawk> it gets diluted Steffanx 
2024-05-01T23:22:06 < mawk> it was fun to implement zyp
2024-05-01T23:22:08 < mawk> when I did it
2024-05-01T23:22:26 < mawk> when I tried to add 6LoWPAN into RTEMS
2024-05-01T23:29:26 < zyp> hmm, I hacked up some code in python to do the calculation, and it's getting a different result than the C++ code
2024-05-01T23:29:34 < zyp> neither are correct according to wireshark
2024-05-01T23:30:52 < qyx> copy the lolshark?
2024-05-01T23:32:10 < zyp> I don't need a fixed value, I need a working calculation
2024-05-01T23:33:44 < zyp> hmm, the python calculation is off by 0x0b0b
2024-05-01T23:36:07 < mawk> I wouldn't trust what wireshark says
2024-05-01T23:36:16 < mawk> especially with checksum offloading 
2024-05-01T23:36:28 < mawk> use an online calculator 
2024-05-01T23:36:29 < zyp> this is ICMPv6 checksums, not ethernet
2024-05-01T23:36:31 < mawk> ah
2024-05-01T23:36:52 < zyp> ethernet layer is fine, I just told the MAC to append that
2024-05-01T23:37:04 < mawk> but checksum offloading still exists for the upper layers
2024-05-01T23:37:13 < mawk> although I don't know exactly how
2024-05-01T23:37:27 < mawk> what does your python code looks like
2024-05-01T23:37:32 < zyp> it does, but is not relevant here
2024-05-01T23:37:48 < mawk> you validated that your ones complement addition thing works correctly? before doing the pseudo headers
2024-05-01T23:38:39 < zyp> just a plain accumulator and folding it at the end
2024-05-01T23:38:54 < zyp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/H235L
2024-05-01T23:39:43 < zyp> doing it twice with both endiannesses
2024-05-01T23:41:16 < mawk> o
2024-05-01T23:47:55 < zyp> oh, fuck
2024-05-01T23:48:02 < zyp> hmm, no, disregard
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2024-05-01T23:55:13 < qyx> I meant copy the code
2024-05-01T23:55:17 < qyx> not the value
2024-05-01T23:55:53 < mawk> WS's code is probably not very pretty 
2024-05-01T23:55:57 < mawk> bjt why not
2024-05-01T23:56:00 < mawk> but*
2024-05-01T23:56:26 < qyx> I guess zyp is able to make it pretty
2024-05-01T23:56:45 < qyx> sorry, I meant 'get inspired by'
--- Day changed to touko 02 2024
2024-05-02T00:05:16 < zyp> oh, right, I fucking forgot to invert the result
2024-05-02T00:05:59 < zyp> right, python now gives correct result at least
2024-05-02T00:08:05 < zyp> c++ is still fucking up
2024-05-02T00:18:13 < zyp> dumb typos
2024-05-02T00:18:20 < zyp> works now
2024-05-02T00:23:39 < mawk> nice
2024-05-02T00:24:59 -!- nerozero [~nerozero@87.253.63.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
2024-05-02T00:30:09 < zyp> % ping6 fe80::ff:fe00:1234%en0
2024-05-02T00:30:09 < zyp> PING6(56=40+8+8 bytes) fe80::4fe:84b8:5daa:88c2%en0 --> fe80::ff:fe00:1234%en0
2024-05-02T00:30:09 < zyp> 16 bytes from fe80::ff:fe00:1234%en0, icmp_seq=0 hlim=255 time=0.660 ms
2024-05-02T00:30:09 < zyp> 16 bytes from fe80::ff:fe00:1234%en0, icmp_seq=1 hlim=255 time=0.794 ms
2024-05-02T00:56:24 < mawk> beautiful
2024-05-02T00:56:36 < mawk> it's it on a stm32?
2024-05-02T00:56:42 < mawk> the target
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2024-05-02T03:01:41 < zyp> yes, stm32h7s7
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2024-05-02T11:13:43 < mawk> my ex is gone
2024-05-02T11:13:48 < mawk> she's in the train to Paris 
2024-05-02T11:13:55 < mawk> finally 
2024-05-02T11:14:52 < mawk> liberation 
2024-05-02T11:14:58 < mawk> after 10 years of captivity 
2024-05-02T11:19:31 < qyx> the ukrainian one?
2024-05-02T11:24:48 < BrainDamage> took you long time to release that kidnapped gal
2024-05-02T11:25:05 < BrainDamage> were you trying to compete with joseph fritzel?
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2024-05-02T12:20:30 < karlp> so U0 is just a revamped L0?
2024-05-02T13:03:28 < karlp> hrm, better run uA/Mhz, better dmips/mhz, can get faster options.  pretty similar though.
2024-05-02T13:04:32 < karlp> yeah, almost half the consumption at full speed though, that's a worthwhile upgrade.
2024-05-02T13:06:48 < karlp> way less compelling upgrade form g0 though.
2024-05-02T13:38:39 < qyx> Steffanx: what was that super led?
2024-05-02T13:38:52 < qyx> rgb addressable?
2024-05-02T13:39:04 < qyx> bright and great
2024-05-02T13:46:12 < qyx> oh I just found some InGaN pink
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2024-05-02T14:14:06 < Steffanx> hd108
2024-05-02T14:14:18 < Steffanx> Not sure if bright.
2024-05-02T14:14:40 < Steffanx> Still have to order the pcb to test with a few more...
2024-05-02T14:14:42 < jpa-> karlp: i wonder where the better dmips/mhz results from
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2024-05-02T15:00:30 < ventYl> maybe they just used newer compiler and it optimized some portion of Dhrystone out
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2024-05-02T15:38:04 < karlp> jpa-: yeah, I was curious too, but it's probably from ART? there's no i-cache on l0 as far as I can tell.
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2024-05-02T17:27:49 < qyx> hey pros, I lack some proper linker-fu
2024-05-02T17:29:09 < qyx> I had some hard time with a regression when starting freertos, allocating stack space, etc etc
2024-05-02T17:29:42 < qyx> tracked it down to sbrk() implementation which uses a static pointer set to &_ebss
2024-05-02T17:30:09 < qyx> &_ebss is good, but the variable is not initialized properly, the problem is that no .data variable is initialized
2024-05-02T17:30:27 < qyx> the issue is _data_loadaddr = LOADADDR(.data); in the linker script resolves to a bad address
2024-05-02T17:30:39 < qyx> but idk why
2024-05-02T17:30:59 < qyx> this is my elf https://paste.jvnv.net/view/mZYCA
2024-05-02T17:31:23 < qyx> I am using "stock" libopencm3 linker script (the old one) https://github.com/libopencm3/libopencm3/blob/master/lib/cortex-m-generic.ld
2024-05-02T17:33:06 < qyx> after breaking here https://github.com/libopencm3/libopencm3/blob/master/lib/cm3/vector.c#L62
2024-05-02T17:33:31 < qyx> &_data_loadaddr has wrong address, 0x08036274 instead of 0x026300
2024-05-02T17:35:51 < qyx> 0x08036274 points at the end of .ARM.exidx
2024-05-02T17:37:11 < qyx> sorry not 0x26300 but 0x08010100 + 0x2355c - 0x768 (.text addr + size + data size)
2024-05-02T17:48:45 < zyp> sounds like you're confusing ADDR() and LOADADDR()
2024-05-02T17:49:15 < zyp> LOADADDR(.data) points to the RO copy in flash containing the initial contents that startup code copies to ram
2024-05-02T17:49:22 < zyp> so naturally that's a flash address
2024-05-02T17:49:51 < qyx> yes but the wrong one
2024-05-02T17:50:11 < zyp> what does objdump -h say?
2024-05-02T17:51:21 < qyx> the same as readelf https://paste.jvnv.net/view/6IWcI
2024-05-02T17:52:00 < zyp> yeah, I just find that format more readable
2024-05-02T17:52:02 < qyx> LMA for data is 0x08036274, but that's end of .text
2024-05-02T17:52:10 < qyx> and that's wrong
2024-05-02T17:53:53 < qyx> what's even more interesting is I can't bisect it, those files were not changed for the last 4 years minimum
2024-05-02T17:53:58 < zyp> no, that's end of .ARM.exidx
2024-05-02T17:54:04 < zyp> >>> hex(0x8010100 + 0x2355c + 0x258 + 0x29c0)
2024-05-02T17:54:04 < zyp> '0x8036274'
2024-05-02T17:54:21 < zyp> looks correct to me
2024-05-02T17:54:56 < qyx> sorry end of whatever before -data
2024-05-02T17:55:03 < qyx> yes exidx
2024-05-02T17:55:41 < qyx> but definitely not correct, it should be 0x08010100 + 0x0002355c - 0x768
2024-05-02T17:56:03 < qyx> that is, start of .text + len(text) - len(data)
2024-05-02T17:56:23 < zyp> what? why?
2024-05-02T17:56:33 < zyp> that makes no sense
2024-05-02T17:56:49 < zyp> initial .data is not part of .text
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2024-05-02T18:09:02 < karlp> how do you cast a mem address to a type in gdb? "p /x *(TPM_Type *) 0x400ac000" is giving me all zeros, but "x 0x400ac000" shows me more like the values I expect.
2024-05-02T18:09:29 < zyp> {TPM_Type}0x400ac000
2024-05-02T18:09:30 < karlp> it's taking the value in memory at 0x400ac000 and using that as the pointer I think?
2024-05-02T18:09:57 < karlp> fucking {} ?! 
2024-05-02T18:09:58 < zyp> although *(foo*)0x1234 should also work
2024-05-02T18:10:01 < karlp> damn, never knew that.
2024-05-02T18:10:08 < karlp> no, that's still showing me zeros
2024-05-02T18:10:22 < zyp> yeah, it should be equivalent to the former
2024-05-02T18:10:38 < zyp> sounds like it's sensitive to access types or something
2024-05-02T18:10:53 < qyx> indeed it is 0x8036274 bu tbut
2024-05-02T18:11:02 < karlp> ref man says all 32bit.
2024-05-02T18:11:33 < karlp> "fucking kinetis" i guess
2024-05-02T18:12:13 < qyx> ok in the elf at the right location I have the right value
2024-05-02T18:13:21 < PaulFertser> karlp: set debug remote 1 and you'll see what it tries to request with what sizes.
2024-05-02T18:13:22 < qyx> but that means
2024-05-02T18:14:19 < karlp> yeah, x /10wx addr is doign 10 separate reads.
2024-05-02T18:14:39 < karlp> p /x *(type*)addr is doign a single read of the size of the whole thing.
2024-05-02T18:14:56 < karlp> and with reserved holes in the type, I guess that's fucking it up.
2024-05-02T18:15:17 < karlp> this is the same thing I had with something in laks, also on one of these 8bit vs other shit paltforms.
2024-05-02T18:15:37 < karlp> RM has this note: "Attempting to access a reserved register location in the TPM memory map will generate a
2024-05-02T18:15:39 < karlp> bus error
2024-05-02T18:15:42 < karlp> thanks for that nxp.
2024-05-02T18:15:48 < karlp> designed to fail.
2024-05-02T18:15:55 < qyx> holy smokes, fuk the alignment
2024-05-02T18:16:46 < qyx> of course it finds noting at 0x08036274 because it is placed at 0x08036300
2024-05-02T18:16:51 < karlp> right, openocd console even spits out Error: Failed to read memory at 0x400ac00c
2024-05-02T18:17:16 < karlp> but then it simply provides zeros back, and iether openocd or gdb is just happily lying through their teeth about the result.
2024-05-02T18:17:57 < karlp> let me guess, gdb remote proto doesn't have a way to sign that a read failed? you just have to return zeros?
2024-05-02T18:21:21 < PaulFertser> eh, it was considered to be good to not report failures by default due to some other GDB oddity.
2024-05-02T18:23:30 < PaulFertser> karlp: you can use "gdb_report_data_abort" to switch to do the right thing
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2024-05-02T18:25:00 < karlp> that's significantly better.
2024-05-02T18:25:09 < PaulFertser> karlp: https://review.openocd.org/gitweb?p=openocd.git;a=blob;f=src/server/gdb_server.c;h=c1ee4aa2a18606c746cf97b7ba58d137d1955d28;hb=HEAD#l1534
2024-05-02T18:25:10 < karlp> sitll.... not quite right, but not sure what can be done now
2024-05-02T18:26:00 < PaulFertser> Probably it's about time to switch it if the GDB bug is fixed.
2024-05-02T18:26:18 < PaulFertser> Hard to tell with old GDB bugzilla broken.
2024-05-02T18:26:41 < karlp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/ZficM
2024-05-02T18:27:41  * karlp tries to imagine how this would have affected stack traces.
2024-05-02T18:31:48 < PaulFertser> karlp: probably GDB just refused to show stack traces on any failure with any address it tried while unwinding.
2024-05-02T18:32:02 < PaulFertser> The paste looks sane.
2024-05-02T18:32:09 < PaulFertser> GDB asks for a block
2024-05-02T18:33:45 < karlp> yeah, I agree there's probably not much way of avoiding that discrepancy
2024-05-02T18:33:48 < karlp> but this is _way_ better
2024-05-02T18:34:04 < karlp> now I get an error trying to read memeory if a peripher isnt' clocked, instead of just "lol zero"
2024-05-02T18:38:51 < qyx> zyp: the problem is here https://paste.jvnv.net/view/FSYuX, physaddr on the last line should be 0x08036300 instead of 0x08036274
2024-05-02T18:39:07 < qyx> any idea how to force the LMA align?
2024-05-02T18:39:58 < zyp> why do you need LMA to be aligned beyond 4B?
2024-05-02T18:42:09 < qyx> because the ELF is flashed in the internal flash
2024-05-02T18:42:15 < qyx> I need both to be aligned the same
2024-05-02T18:42:31 < qyx> just found this https://stackoverflow.com/questions/1729730/ld-linker-target-address-aligning-but-not-address-in-rom
2024-05-02T18:42:32 < zyp> I don't understand
2024-05-02T18:43:18 < qyx> the ELF is flashed at 0x08010000, asi is, verbatim (not converted to binary anyhow)
2024-05-02T18:43:37 < zyp> the flash copy is only ever used to copy to ram at startup, why do you need any alignment beyond word alignment there?
2024-05-02T18:43:55 < qyx> section offsets need to be the same as physaddr
2024-05-02T18:44:02 < qyx> ELF file section offsets
2024-05-02T18:44:39 < zyp> so?
2024-05-02T18:44:46 < zyp> oh, wait
2024-05-02T18:45:02 < qyx> when the LOADADDR(.data) is 0x08036274 and the offset is 0x026300, it reads the wrong data
2024-05-02T18:45:17 < qyx> because it should be 0x10000+0x026300
2024-05-02T18:46:06 < zyp> «the offset» being what offset?
2024-05-02T18:46:14 < qyx> ELF file offset
2024-05-02T18:47:21 < qyx> the number of bytes from the start of the ELF file
2024-05-02T18:48:11 < zyp> oh, so it's your elf loader that's fucking up?
2024-05-02T18:49:13 < zyp> you're putting the elf itself in flash, and therefore the offsets matter and you need the LMAs to be consistent?
2024-05-02T18:49:30 < qyx> yes and ld started to ignore the alignment (0x100) for LMAs
2024-05-02T18:49:47 < qyx> as you can see, everything other is properly aligned
2024-05-02T18:51:00 < zyp> quoting SO:
2024-05-02T18:51:00 < zyp> To align both the VMA and LMA of a section using a GNU linker script do something like this...
2024-05-02T18:51:04 < zyp> .section_name ALIGN( vma_alignment ) : ALIGN( lma_alignment ){
2024-05-02T18:51:06 < zyp>   ...section contents
2024-05-02T18:51:09 < zyp> }
2024-05-02T18:51:29 < qyx> yeah
2024-05-02T18:51:38 < qyx> I have not tried yet
2024-05-02T18:52:06 < zyp> oh, right, my google search found the same thing you linked
2024-05-02T18:52:32 < qyx> hm why is it not used in linker scripts?
2024-05-02T18:52:39 < qyx> I see this syntax for the first time
2024-05-02T18:52:58 < zyp> I've never needed to care about LMA alignment before
2024-05-02T18:54:26 < qyx> region `ram' overflowed by 18446744073172765860 bytes
2024-05-02T18:54:27 < qyx> oh
2024-05-02T18:54:36 < zyp> haha
2024-05-02T18:54:43 < karlp> lol
2024-05-02T18:58:34 < karlp> feckin, code asks for 7Mhz PWm, then other code does asumptions based on it being 8Mhz.
2024-05-02T18:58:55 < karlp> follow it down, with integer division, 7Mhz == 8Mhz.
2024-05-02T18:59:19 < karlp> could have asked for 8Mhz and been clear upfront, but no..... do sometehing insane and obfuscated.
2024-05-02T19:01:57 < qyx> .data : ALIGN(0x100) { works
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2024-05-02T19:05:25 < karlp> PaulFertser: fwiw, new bug id is: https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=9500
2024-05-02T19:05:36 < karlp> (via https://sourceware.org/gdb/wiki/DeveloperTips#Finding_Gnats_bug_entries_in_the_Bugzilla_database)
2024-05-02T19:07:12 < PaulFertser> karlp: thank you! I was trying to do just that
2024-05-02T19:08:08 < karlp> love the base64 encoded image in the bugzilla comments...
2024-05-02T19:08:32 < karlp> lol, tarek ran into it too a couple of years ago
2024-05-02T19:08:36 < PaulFertser> Damn so GDB devs do not care
2024-05-02T19:08:59 < karlp> apparently not.
2024-05-02T19:09:18 < PaulFertser> Probably somehow one should contact Linaro about that one.
2024-05-02T19:09:29 < karlp> I'm going to have this on fo ra while, see I ever actually see a problem with stack unwinding.
2024-05-02T19:09:42 < karlp> it's feasible it just got fixed without anyone knowing about this old bug
2024-05-02T19:10:47 < karlp> thread apply all bt still works just fine for me on this freertos system
2024-05-02T19:12:18 < karlp> stack-info-depth doesn'te even exist as a command for me
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2024-05-02T19:19:20 < karlp> (gdb) interpreter-exec mi "-stack-info-depth ok, that still works.
2024-05-02T19:20:08 < PaulFertser> Guess the switch can be changed then.
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2024-05-02T19:25:30 < qyx> so my today's "just enable this feature" turned into a 5 hour debug
2024-05-02T19:25:39 < zyp> fun
2024-05-02T19:27:09 < zyp> I'm thinking about what to implement next for my networking stack, considering doing mdns
2024-05-02T19:27:13 < qyx> which reminds me I need to put linker scripts and startup into the main codebase
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2024-05-02T19:27:27 < qyx> do you already have udp?
2024-05-02T19:27:48 < zyp> no, just icmpv6 so far (echo and ndp)
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2024-05-02T19:29:08 < zyp> mdns looks nice and easy, just not sure what I'd use it for yet
2024-05-02T19:29:42 < qyx> to avoid writing link local addresses?
2024-05-02T19:30:34 < zyp> yeah, it's just that I don't really have any server side functionality planned yet
2024-05-02T19:30:52 < zyp> mdns would make a lot of sense for e.g. a http server, but I don't need that yet
2024-05-02T19:31:31 < zyp> what I kinda do need is a mqtt *client*
2024-05-02T19:31:56 < zyp> so maybe I should do tcp client next
2024-05-02T19:36:01 < karlp> mdns broadcast to annouce your device's existance.
2024-05-02T19:36:17 < karlp> what I'd like is a better "just get this" tool for windows or somehting that can do mdns browsing.
2024-05-02T19:36:19 < qyx> and a dns client for mqtt
2024-05-02T19:36:55 < karlp> but yeah, doesn't matter much if no services on the device.
2024-05-02T19:41:04 < zyp> one thing I'd like to use this network stack for is devices that ties into home-assistant's mqtt integrations
2024-05-02T19:41:45 < zyp> and yeah, a mdns *client* to discover the broker address could make a lot of sense
2024-05-02T19:42:02 < zyp> but is less interesting than a mdns server
2024-05-02T19:45:08 < karlp> just use dns srv for mqtt, fuck trying to find mqtt broker via mdns, that sounds wild
2024-05-02T19:45:31 < zyp> why?
2024-05-02T19:47:16 < zyp> if I want a zeroconf way to find the local broker on an arbitrary network, what's wrong with using mdns service discovery for it?
2024-05-02T19:48:13 < zyp> hmm, MQTT over QUIC is a thing now, maybe that's less hassle than TCP
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2024-05-02T19:53:38 < qyx> mqtt over qyx
2024-05-02T20:01:23 < qyx> but picoquic already exists, you have to pick femtoquic
2024-05-02T20:02:04 < qyx> does it work over udp only?
2024-05-02T20:21:05 < zyp> AIUI yes
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2024-05-02T20:37:31 < zyp> hmm, QUIC looks complex and has mandatory TLS, probably not a good starting point
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2024-05-02T22:46:36 < Laurenceb_> TGV status: fixed
2024-05-02T22:47:33 < Laurenceb_> someone tried to silicone to a crosslinked synthetic rubber cable insulation and the bond strength was too low -> water inside 25kV cabling
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2024-05-02T23:16:28 < zyp> what's people's favorite pluggable terminal blocks? i.e. something like this? https://www.phoenixcontact.com/en-pc/products/printed-circuit-board-connector-fmc-15-5-st-35-1952296
2024-05-02T23:16:44 < zyp> they're nice but pricy, any suggestions for cheaper alternatives?
2024-05-02T23:21:02 < zyp> oh, looks like they're all cloned
2024-05-02T23:21:05 < zyp> e.g. https://www.lcsc.com/product-detail/Pluggable-System-Terminal-Block_Cixi-Kefa-Elec-KF2EDGKN-3-5-5P_C2923002.html
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--- Day changed pe touko 03 2024
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2024-05-03T00:27:13 < Laurenceb_> we use Phoenix at wurk
2024-05-03T00:30:33 < fenugrec> zyp , another maybe cloned one is amphenol anytek (TJxx11* / 20020004-Cxxxx pluggable 3.5mm pitch, PCB ex. RA 20020110-C**
2024-05-03T00:31:03 < fenugrec> shitty awful part numbering scheme, no real catalog, almost as bad as wurth or TE
2024-05-03T00:39:05 < qyx> thanks sap?
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2024-05-03T02:01:30 < karlp> zyp: reason to use dns srv to lookup mqtt broker is so that you _don't_ have to implement mdns lookup.
2024-05-03T02:02:06 < karlp> if you already end upð with dns resolver anyway, dns srv is "free" and there's "standard" methods for dns srv for mqtt brokers, but mdns you'd be rolling your own.
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2024-05-03T09:55:03 < zyp> karlp, so which dns server should I ask and why would it know?
2024-05-03T11:58:32 < qyx> you have your domain assigned?
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2024-05-03T12:39:10 < Laurenceb_> supp
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2024-05-03T12:39:54 < Laurenceb_> anyone know of a way to kill all subprocesses created using popen in lunix when parent dies?
2024-05-03T12:40:09 < Laurenceb_> the subprocesses are closed sores so I cant edit them
2024-05-03T12:41:11 < jpa-> can you create a process group beforehand?
2024-05-03T12:41:23 < Laurenceb_> maybe
2024-05-03T12:41:33 < Laurenceb_> should I add a signal handler within the parent?
2024-05-03T12:42:58 < Laurenceb_> could I just use killpg with argument of zero?
2024-05-03T12:44:29 < jpa-> i think you would call setpgid(0,0); before starting any children, and then you can killpg
2024-05-03T12:44:43 < jpa-> though myself i would just use a systemd service because it can do this nicely
2024-05-03T12:49:03 < Laurenceb_> hmm it already is a systemd service
2024-05-03T12:49:43 < Laurenceb_> but in the form of a bash script that runs the other processes
2024-05-03T12:51:08 < jpa-> shouldn't matter, as long as KillMode is control-group (which is default)
2024-05-03T12:52:21 < Laurenceb_> symptom was a developer went in via ssh and killed the parent process. It then got automatically respawned, but the child processes that talk to hardware were left running, so the new child subprocesses could not connect
2024-05-03T12:54:09 < jpa-> i assume systemd is what respawned it?
2024-05-03T12:54:13 < Laurenceb_> yes
2024-05-03T12:54:43 < Laurenceb_> its a minor issue but I think parent process needs to kill child processes to make the system more robust
2024-05-03T12:54:57 < jpa-> maybe it needs some restart wait in the systemd config
2024-05-03T12:55:22 < Laurenceb_> child processes could keep running forever unless they are killed tho
2024-05-03T12:55:28 < jpa-> it should kill them
2024-05-03T12:55:35 < Laurenceb_> hmm ok
2024-05-03T12:55:44 < jpa-> (unless you have disabled that)
2024-05-03T12:57:32 < jpa-> you may need KillSignal=9 if your tasks do not die with SIGTERM
2024-05-03T12:57:57 < jpa-> hmm, though it should send SIGKILL also automatically if they refuse to die
2024-05-03T12:58:43 < jpa-> you could try by stopping with systemctl to see if everything dies
2024-05-03T13:03:26 < jpa-> you can also check journalctl if it has any "failed to kill" stuff
2024-05-03T13:07:42 < Laurenceb_> ok thanks
2024-05-03T13:24:04 < Laurenceb_> wtf
2024-05-03T13:24:05 < Laurenceb_> sh: 1: cannot create asound_temp.state: Permission denied
2024-05-03T13:24:12 < Laurenceb_> cant even open files now
2024-05-03T13:26:46 < Laurenceb_> does anyone know where stdout from systemd processes goes to?
2024-05-03T13:28:16 < jpa-> to    journalctl -u yourservicename
2024-05-03T13:28:28 < jpa-> but if your process doesn't flush stdout, it may end up buffered and not visible
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2024-05-03T14:28:53 < karlp> zyp: I guess you're thinking of the home assistant sort of env wher eyou want to use mdns to maybe find "any" mqtt broker,
2024-05-03T14:50:37 < qyx> I though HA prefered way is to host a http API on the end device and advertise it to the HA instance
2024-05-03T14:52:14 < qyx> I am pretty surprised zyp is considering the other way around
2024-05-03T14:52:54 < qyx> and I am considering deprecating mqtt for my stuff too
2024-05-03T14:52:58 < karlp> alternate is for devices to just connect to a mqtt broker that ha knows about
2024-05-03T14:53:04 < karlp> and they publish whatever metadata they want.
2024-05-03T14:53:21 < karlp> which shares nicely with other systems.
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2024-05-03T17:16:39 < zyp> karlp, yeah, I'm thinking of a «get me the local broker» scenario where there's no common cloud service to connect to
2024-05-03T17:17:18 < karlp> does HA advertise anything for you to rbwose for? I hadn't noticed them doing anything stndard for this, that's all,
2024-05-03T17:18:26 < zyp> not by default, but it's been proposed multiple times, e.g. https://community.home-assistant.io/t/mosquitto-broker-announcing-advertising-mqtt-service-via-mdns/343190
2024-05-03T17:19:58 < karlp> yeah, always goign to be wonky though, as HA doesn't have it's own broker, you run one and add it to HA, potentially multiple, so it's not really HA's job to annouce it, I guess is one of the wrinkles.
2024-05-03T17:20:17 < karlp> don't you just make traefik announce what it created to run or something? ;)
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2024-05-03T20:27:54 < zyp> I thought HA bundled hbmqtt with the option to either run internal broker or connect to external
2024-05-03T20:31:43  * karlp shrugs haven't looked much recently.
2024-05-03T20:31:50 < karlp> ha kinda just runs, does it's thing.
2024-05-03T20:31:54 < zyp> same
2024-05-03T20:32:09 < zyp> mine is set up to connect to an external emq instance
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--- Day changed la touko 04 2024
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2024-05-04T02:09:20 < Ecco> Heya
2024-05-04T02:09:59 < Ecco> I'm wondering what TrustZone brings to the table
2024-05-04T02:10:38 < Ecco> In other words, does it allow stuff that was not previously possible with privilege separation / MPU?
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2024-05-04T02:15:55 < karlp> depends what marketing you want to believe...
2024-05-04T02:16:05 < karlp> but really, depends what your threa modellin
2024-05-04T02:16:13 < karlp> depends what your thread modelling looks like...
2024-05-04T02:16:43 < Ecco> :-D
2024-05-04T02:17:00 < Ecco> Well, is there a scenario where trustzone adds something to the table?
2024-05-04T02:17:44 < Ecco> or, let me rephrase: what's the scenario where trustzone would be the most useful?
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2024-05-04T02:23:12 < karlp> when you believe it does ;)
2024-05-04T02:23:18 < Ecco> hahaha
2024-05-04T02:23:28 < Ecco> No but seriously? Never? :)
2024-05-04T02:23:31 < karlp> (you're not going to get the answer yu want frrom me, at least)
2024-05-04T02:23:53 < Ecco> I mean, I tried to figure it out, and still can't
2024-05-04T02:24:03 < Ecco> so I'm enclined to believe it *really* doesn't do anything useful
2024-05-04T02:44:38 < zyp> useful is subjective
2024-05-04T02:45:24 < zyp> trustzone gives you another separation layer in addition to the regular two level system found in cortex-m
2024-05-04T02:46:06 < zyp> with controls that are more fine grained and reaches further
2024-05-04T02:48:13 < zyp> MPU applies to the CPU only, trustzone ties into the whole memory bus system, so you can restrict other DMA masters from touching secure memory
2024-05-04T02:49:16 < zyp> and you can have non-secure interrupt handlers, meaning even code in handler context can't touch memory it's not supposed to
2024-05-04T02:49:46 < zyp> and the debug interfaces can be restricted to only be able to reach non-secure areas
2024-05-04T02:51:22 < zyp> so I could put some secret crypto stuff in the secure area, lock off debug access to it, give the chip to you, and you'll have full access to the entirety of the non-secure part of the chip, including debug access, but you wouldn't be able to steal my keys
2024-05-04T02:52:31 < zyp> so, whether it is useful depends on whether your application has any use for multiple security levels
2024-05-04T02:53:03 < zyp> most of the stuff I do doesn't, and doesn't even have use for the MPU
2024-05-04T02:54:36 < zyp> and if you're doing anything with significant security concerns, the more barriers you put up, the harder they are to breach
2024-05-04T05:00:12 < karlp> but, I would urge people to remember that, you can spend weeks/months on making things "secure" but if you make _one_ fuckup, it's all over.
2024-05-04T05:00:28 < karlp> and, in all of that time, you were, basically, working against your own customers.
2024-05-04T05:00:54 < karlp> I tend to encourage err-ing on the side of "deliver features, not 'protection'"
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2024-05-04T10:39:43 < qyx> so make things inherently insecure and advertise that \o/
2024-05-04T11:00:02 < PaulFertser> Security doesn't exist without a threat model.
2024-05-04T11:03:28 < PaulFertser> Another thing to consider is how hardware features can help with writing more reliable/bugfree firmware. E.g. if you run RTOS it's likely that using MPU will help see a stray pointer access bug right away when you accidentally introduce it, not few months later when it actually starts affecting a totally unrelated task/thread.
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2024-05-04T12:15:43 < qyx> nonwork https://bin.jvnv.net/file/6HjuB/IMG_2024-05-04-11-14-56-405.jpg
2024-05-04T12:15:54 < qyx> no stm32 was hurt
2024-05-04T12:20:59 < PaulFertser> But was one involved? Probably for thermal profile of the oven?
2024-05-04T12:21:45 < PaulFertser> That's some more than average amount of onion I'd say. Looks tasty.
2024-05-04T12:47:22 < qyx> no, pure analol control
2024-05-04T12:58:57 < PaulFertser> Bon appetit
2024-05-04T13:31:31 < qyx> thanks, baked by sun, 100% organic and clean energy
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2024-05-04T13:45:00 < Steffanx> Im proud of you qyx  :P
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2024-05-04T15:06:33 < qyx> re mqtt dns: -S
2024-05-04T15:06:34 < qyx> Use SRV lookups to determine which host to connect to. Performs lookups to _mqtt._tcp.<host> when used in conjunction with -h, otherwise uses _mqtt._tcp.<local dns domain>
2024-05-04T15:07:17 < qyx> using local dns domain is truly zeroconf
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2024-05-04T15:20:00 < Ecco> thanks guys for your explanations about trustzone. makes a lot of sense!
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2024-05-04T16:58:23 < fenugrec> some .fi musics https://hidriaspacefolk.bandcamp.com/track/g-bekli-tepe
2024-05-04T17:42:24 < qyx> what are IoT pros opinions about sending jpeg pictures over mqtt?
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2024-05-04T22:39:16 < zyp> qyx, sounds like a weird thing to do
2024-05-04T22:51:10 < qyx> apparently common, even HA has mqtt/camera integration for it
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2024-05-05T00:03:32 < BrainDamage> it sounds like a mediocre idea to me, if you clog the mqtt server all your sensor and control flow could get messed up
2024-05-05T00:03:56 < BrainDamage> I'd rather set a http server and publish the link on mqtt
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2024-05-05T00:26:36 < karlp> it's finefor the sort of slow rate cam shit, it "just works"
2024-05-05T00:26:50 < karlp> lets anyting get the "last frame" nicely too.
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2024-05-05T10:46:43 < qyx> karlp: 1 fpm, yeah
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--- Day changed ma touko 06 2024
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2024-05-06T01:33:03 < nomorekaki> hello early
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2024-05-06T09:13:01 < Steffanx> Too early nomorekaki 
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2024-05-06T09:50:29 < qyx> farmer's chore regime, wake up at 4am, go sleep at 8 pm, wake up at midnight and sleep again at 1 am
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2024-05-06T11:56:25 < qyx> stm32 pros, which esp32 is the right one today?
2024-05-06T11:56:38 < qyx> for esphome, C3 and S2 both look problematic
2024-05-06T12:09:57 < karlp> plain classic still a good choice...
2024-05-06T12:10:08 < karlp> otherwise s3 I think...
2024-05-06T12:10:11 < karlp> s2 looks garbage.
2024-05-06T12:12:14 < qyx> and do I need the integrated psram?
2024-05-06T12:12:32 < qyx> I am assuming it has an internal SRAM too
2024-05-06T12:17:42 < karlp> integrated psram is aiui, "are you running a display or big network apps" 
2024-05-06T12:18:17 < karlp> my micropython+matter thin ga while back needed psram, and some careful juggling of what went where.
2024-05-06T12:18:41 < karlp> i'm actually off kinetis and bakc to esp32 classic today too.
2024-05-06T12:24:04 < qyx> hm ok "do not pot the antenna", good recommendation
2024-05-06T12:29:48 < karlp> espressif hardware guide?
2024-05-06T12:30:49 < qyx> no some interweb rf testing lab
2024-05-06T12:31:59 < qyx> for two main reasons: 1. you won't be able to test, 2. you will most definitely fail to meed the spec as the potting compound has a different permittivity than air
2024-05-06T12:32:04 < qyx> *meet
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2024-05-06T13:24:25 < Steffanx> Qyx: that weekend project of mine used a pico-d4 which is the classic one. Support was good.
2024-05-06T13:24:42 < Steffanx> Even with a random antenna for wifi. 
2024-05-06T13:24:49 < Steffanx> Pcb antenna that is
2024-05-06T13:25:27 < karlp> speaking of hw guidelines, they moved to html, and dropped the revision history: https://docs.espressif.com/projects/esp-hardware-design-guidelines/en/latest/esp32/revision-history.html
2024-05-06T13:25:45 < karlp> but was everyone following thi sguideline? https://docs.espressif.com/projects/esp-hardware-design-guidelines/en/latest/esp32/schematic-checklist.html#uart
2024-05-06T13:25:46 < Steffanx> And now I can browse to a website to see how much coffee is left in the coffee pot. Such IoT.
2024-05-06T13:25:58 < karlp> sounds like a pretty successful weekend steff
2024-05-06T13:26:06 < karlp> I didn't get it form the pics, how is the sensing?
2024-05-06T13:26:20 < Steffanx> Just some load cells.
2024-05-06T13:26:24 < qyx> oh
2024-05-06T13:26:53 < Steffanx> And a speaker to tell people to make some new coffee when it's empty 
2024-05-06T13:50:44 < qyx> ok so I have some proper relays, uln2803, esp32 and some meanwells to feed the thing
2024-05-06T13:50:52 < qyx> I feel like maker, clicking order
2024-05-06T13:51:16 < qyx> tomorrow I can draw a super pro 2 layer PCB for the thing
2024-05-06T13:51:42 < qyx> hm I should add some THT resistors too
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2024-05-06T14:24:10 < karlp> anyone know the difference between a "remote wakeup frame" and a "magic packet" ? esp32 mac has bits for them separately as wake events
2024-05-06T14:25:47 < jpa-> out of interest, what document?
2024-05-06T14:26:45 < karlp> this is in esp trm rev5, and I've just found out,
2024-05-06T14:27:01 < karlp> they have one bit for plain magic packet, and another bit for a separelty configured wakeup filter,
2024-05-06T14:27:10 < karlp> so you can make your own frame matching as well.
2024-05-06T14:28:11 < ventYl> what's the purpose of plain magic packet? something that goes through into some embedded MCU inside PHY you can program with packet filter kind of code?
2024-05-06T14:31:10 < karlp> "plain magic" is the original WoL shit. six bytes of ff, then 6 copies of the target's mac address.
2024-05-06T14:31:28 < karlp> then the other one is "whatever else you want to wake on"
2024-05-06T14:31:42 < karlp> maybe just your destmac, maybe a special mcast group, whatever.
2024-05-06T14:45:19 < jpa-> nice
2024-05-06T14:45:35 < jpa-> waking up only on WoL is quite limiting
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2024-05-06T14:51:29 < zyp> Steffanx, coworkers at a former employer put load cells on each side of the coffee maker so they could measure the center of mass shifting as the water moved from the water tank to the pot and use that to show a progress bar for when the next pot would be ready
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2024-05-06T15:01:39 < qyx> :D
2024-05-06T15:03:26 < PaulFertser> Some traditions are probably nice enough to be followed https://www.ibm.com/blog/little-known-story-first-iot-device/
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2024-05-06T15:24:42 < BrainDamage> the key thing that many seem to miss is that local functionality should not impacted by the iot service
2024-05-06T15:24:51 < BrainDamage> ie graceful fallback
2024-05-06T15:45:26 < karlp> no, fuck that, we're going to replace your door handle and lock with one that only works via the app...
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2024-05-06T16:34:14 < PaulFertser> BrainDamage: the finger server itself was local, accessible globally.
2024-05-06T16:34:41 < BrainDamage> PaulFertser: the finger server didn't impede the normal machine's functionality
2024-05-06T16:35:15 < PaulFertser> BrainDamage: sure, and it was running on that machine anyway
2024-05-06T16:40:10 < karlp> when our company was tiny, we had shared office space, so there was just a machine to push the butotn on for coffee.
2024-05-06T16:40:45 < karlp> now at a big company, i have the hoice of a button machine, or old style brewed, but it's someone's _job_ in the kitchen to keep them brewed all day, so... no need for iot anything here...
2024-05-06T16:42:50 < PaulFertser> I've read that it actually requires plenty of work to keep dripper/batch machine clean enough for coffee from it to be good.
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2024-05-06T16:45:24 < BrainDamage> retention is the #1 reason for crappy batch coffee
2024-05-06T16:45:40 < BrainDamage> imagine if you were to reuse your grounds hundreds of times
2024-05-06T16:50:00 < qyx> imagine always topping up your NiMH
2024-05-06T17:07:31 < Steffanx> My fall back is TTS and LEDs. Is that BrainDamage approved?
2024-05-06T17:07:46 < Steffanx> *pre recorded TTS
2024-05-06T17:08:17 < BrainDamage> whatever works, just don't break functionality that existed for decades before the internet was invented
2024-05-06T17:08:42 < Steffanx> Heh zyp :)
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2024-05-06T18:51:03 < karlp> is there a trick to get 64bit printf, or is that just "no nano libc for you" then https://paste.jvnv.net/view/adhCm ?
2024-05-06T18:53:11 < qyx> it is so repeated gotcha that we should make a working (and reasonably) small *printf implementation
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2024-05-06T18:55:01 < karlp> I knew it with floats, I didn't know it with int64
2024-05-06T18:55:07 < karlp> and I can't find anything in the newlib sources taht flags it out.
2024-05-06T18:55:51 < karlp> https://sourceware.org/git/?p=newlib-cygwin.git;a=blob;f=newlib/README;h=1b2c16cd4ba153d3de7e7d7e150238e656dca4b8;hb=HEAD#l405 makes no mention of 64bit being gone...
2024-05-06T19:02:27 < qyx> been there too but idk what did I do, I probably concluded it is not worth the effort
2024-05-06T19:04:02 < karlp> it's like 60kb more...
2024-05-06T19:15:35 < jpa-> just plug in mpaland printf
2024-05-06T19:15:53 < jpa-> or switch to ealibc
2024-05-06T19:16:08 < karlp> oh no, we already have another printf in the tree anyway :)
2024-05-06T19:16:21 < karlp> but I was just trying to add some integer test fields...
2024-05-06T19:16:28 < karlp> non-nano is enough for right now.
2024-05-06T19:16:39 < karlp> just adds a few more sprinkles of hate to things...
2024-05-06T19:17:13 < karlp> ealibc?
2024-05-06T19:17:39 < jpa-> https://github.com/embeddedartistry/libc
2024-05-06T19:20:13 < karlp> ok, that's very much a topic for a different day ;)
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2024-05-06T19:33:14 < karlp> so the phy datasheet says "write these 20 registers with these magic numbers to get either reach or power consumption or EEE mode...."
2024-05-06T19:33:17 < karlp> ok, no problem.
2024-05-06T19:33:41 < karlp> EEE mode gives me an immeasurable change on consumpiton, but perhaps the peer is not EEE capable.
2024-05-06T19:33:46 < karlp> the other two simply bring the link down...
2024-05-06T19:33:54 < karlp> very effective....
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2024-05-06T19:38:43 < karlp> lol at the "accepted solution" https://community.st.com/t5/stm32cubeide-mcus/what-is-the-sprintf-format-for-a-uint64-t-llu-prints-as-quot-lu/td-p/78488
2024-05-06T19:40:21 < jpa-> been there done that :)
2024-05-06T19:41:54 < karlp> sure, I've definitely done printf("%d", my_float * 1000) before, but meh
2024-05-06T19:42:17 < karlp> in the particular case, my int64 was nly ever 0,1,2,3 anyway, but the storage was int64 sized, so I was trying to do the right thing.
2024-05-06T20:00:44 < vampirefrog> typical wasteful american
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2024-05-06T21:11:02 < Laurenceb_> hmm looks like audiophools are wrong again
2024-05-06T21:11:26 < Laurenceb_> multistranded cable seems to behave almost as well as Litz wire for long lengths
2024-05-06T21:17:29 < Laurenceb_> eevblog vindicated https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/stranded-(not-individually-insulated)-wire-for-reduced-ac-losses/msg4426522/?topicseen#msg4426522
2024-05-06T21:17:35  * Laurenceb_ is testing with LCR meter
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--- Day changed ti touko 07 2024
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2024-05-07T00:10:35 < karlp> vampirefrog: who are you talking about? there's not many americans here...
2024-05-07T00:12:13 < vampirefrog> typical wasteful non american
2024-05-07T00:15:40 < karlp> hah
2024-05-07T00:15:42 < qyx> why is that so, is america that small?
2024-05-07T00:16:09 < qyx> or are they using ~~TI~~ sh.t
2024-05-07T00:17:00 < qyx> anyway, jpegxl/avif/heic?
2024-05-07T00:24:39 < Steffanx> Long time no see, vampirefrog .
2024-05-07T00:24:46 < Steffanx> Still as grumpy as ever I see 
2024-05-07T00:25:41 < vampirefrog> hwody
2024-05-07T00:25:43 < vampirefrog> howdy*
2024-05-07T00:26:07 < zyp> vampirefrog, you're bothered by wasteful printf logging? I've got just the thing for you: https://github.com/zyp/smolt
2024-05-07T00:26:28 < vampirefrog> my remark was regarding using only 2 of 64 bits
2024-05-07T00:27:46 < zyp> that's okay, if you're bothered by memory usage I've still got just the thing for you
2024-05-07T00:28:48 < vampirefrog> I've been grumpy ever since I submitted that PR and karlp never accepted it into locm3
2024-05-07T00:29:08 < ventYl> tough life
2024-05-07T00:29:38 < vampirefrog> what do y'all use for a stm32 library nowadays anyhoo?
2024-05-07T00:30:20 < zyp> oh, I've got just the thing for you: https://github.com/zyp/laks/tree/dev_v2
2024-05-07T00:31:05 < vampirefrog> no README
2024-05-07T00:31:14 < vampirefrog> this might just be crazy enough to work
2024-05-07T00:31:16 < zyp> right, jpa- keeps complaining about that
2024-05-07T00:32:05 < vampirefrog> gee I wonder why
2024-05-07T00:32:32 < vampirefrog> what about demos?
2024-05-07T00:32:49 < zyp> https://cgit.jvnv.net/laks_demo but obsolete
2024-05-07T00:33:04 < zyp> karlp's stuff is probably the best public reference
2024-05-07T00:34:24 < ventYl> zyp: is it in fact more hal than os, or vice versa?
2024-05-07T00:36:52 < zyp> yeah, never were much in the way of OS
2024-05-07T00:38:00 < zyp> it used to have rudimentary multithreading with a dumb round robin scheduler, but I never really used it so it got dropped in v2
2024-05-07T00:38:33 < zyp> might be reintroduced later if I ever get around to do a project that calls for one
2024-05-07T00:38:44 < ventYl> I wonder how (in)compatible would it be with my RTOS
2024-05-07T00:38:52 < ventYl> I have never really tried to make it work with C++
2024-05-07T00:40:20 < zyp> one of the main goals of laks is to be a convenience lib, to eliminate the tedious work of setting up a build system, picking the right headers for a given target chip and so on
2024-05-07T00:41:19 < zyp> you should be able to go with a sconscript on the order of ten lines that imports the laks build rules, tells it what chip you want it to build for and what files to build
2024-05-07T00:42:59 < ventYl> that would be one problem, probably a minor one as necessary portions of CMRX can be extracted out of CMake and aside to this, you only need one script that rebuilds linker script
2024-05-07T00:43:20 < ventYl> major concern would be real world usability of C++ in call across memory protection domains
2024-05-07T00:43:29 < zyp> laks generates a linker script for you
2024-05-07T00:43:30 < ventYl> those were designed to be C-only
2024-05-07T00:43:48 < ventYl> yeah, CMRX needs hacks in it, in order to support rather seamless work with memory protection
2024-05-07T00:44:00 < ventYl> basically same kind of stuff that Zephyr does optionally
2024-05-07T00:44:55 < qyx> I still think MPU should be done without linker hacking
2024-05-07T00:45:08 < zyp> you could add hooks to the template: https://github.com/zyp/laks/blob/dev_v2/ld_scripts/generated.ld.j2
2024-05-07T00:45:33 < zyp> right now I'm only generating the MEMORY section, but I'm planning to generate more, at some point
2024-05-07T00:45:46 < qyx> also, I don't think linker scripts should be generated
2024-05-07T00:46:00 < ventYl> qyx: I am not aware of any way this can be done, even more in fully static way
2024-05-07T00:46:11 < qyx> fuck static way
2024-05-07T00:46:39 < ventYl> zyp: the main problem is, that due to weird-ish nature of MPU registers, you have to know the size of memory protection domain in order to give it alignment
2024-05-07T00:46:47 < qyx> I am not gonna restrict myself to statically allocating resources when considering dynamic linking and relocations
2024-05-07T00:47:17 < ventYl> well, in such case you don't have to. for things that are linked statically, you have to. there's no choice
2024-05-07T00:47:39 < ventYl> and while ELF linker is not available, I had to resort to fully static operation
2024-05-07T00:47:47 < zyp> qyx, when working on stuff like stm32h7, where there's multiple separate memory regions, you either need to hardcode for a specific target, have a clever generator or leave it underutilized
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2024-05-07T00:48:35 < zyp> part of what laks does is that it lets you take code written for one chip and build it for a completely different one only by changing the target
2024-05-07T00:49:30 < qyx> yes but what's the use case
2024-05-07T00:49:44 < zyp> I've got some code that runs mostly unmodified on both stm32f7-discovery and that little sipeed gd32vf board, apart from pin definitions
2024-05-07T00:49:52 < zyp> the use case is portable code
2024-05-07T00:50:24 < ventYl> that aligns with my goals nicely
2024-05-07T00:50:27 < qyx> there is not such thing like portable code touching hardware
2024-05-07T00:50:35 < ventYl> false
2024-05-07T00:50:36 < qyx> *no
2024-05-07T00:50:36 < zyp> sure it is
2024-05-07T00:51:09 < qyx> show me a single hal that is actually a hal
2024-05-07T00:51:13 < zyp> look at smolt, smolt is perfectly portable, it's also capable of poking ITM registers directly
2024-05-07T00:52:04 < zyp> (perfectly portable within its design goals, I should add -- it's also somewhat opinionated)
2024-05-07T00:52:57 < qyx> if it is touching ITM, it is not portable, if it is not toiching ITM, it fails to meet the "touches hardware* condition
2024-05-07T00:53:45 < qyx> no, hardware access code isn't portable unless the hardware is abstracted
2024-05-07T00:54:05 < ventYl> hardware access code itself can provide the necessary abstraction
2024-05-07T00:54:16 < ventYl> and then everything built on top of it is essentially portable
2024-05-07T00:54:19 < zyp> qyx, yes, smolt has a transport abstraction
2024-05-07T00:54:27 < qyx> you will never get portability even for ram regions because of quirks like "oh DMA cannot access this particular SRAM region"
2024-05-07T00:55:01 < zyp> and that's why a linker script generator is useful
2024-05-07T00:55:04 < qyx> even when the ld scriot is generated, how do you portably tell the compiler where to put the code?
2024-05-07T00:55:24 < qyx> where to allocate a dma buffer?
2024-05-07T00:55:28 < qyx> etc.
2024-05-07T00:55:44 < zyp> [[gnu::section…]] is portable *enough*
2024-05-07T00:56:15 < qyx> I am failing to get the point
2024-05-07T00:56:21 < qyx> where is the portability?
2024-05-07T00:56:33 < qyx> when you have to name that section?
2024-05-07T00:56:48 < qyx> instead eg. let the code choose a suitable region in runtime?
2024-05-07T00:56:57 < zyp> or rather, with a proper generator, what you'd do is make a memory buffer marked with required traits
2024-05-07T00:57:11 < qyx> thats a bit better
2024-05-07T00:58:42 < zyp> you could make memory buffers with requirements encoded in the symbol in a similar manner to how smolt is putting metadata in symbols, and then have the build system extract the traits from the object files before linking
2024-05-07T00:58:54 < qyx> a very simple and common use case is to have a product with alternative MCUs of the same family, the same model, but with a different amount of SRAM, 64k, 128K, etc
2024-05-07T00:59:44 < zyp> I've made laks stuff that runs on both g071 and g0b1, enables USB if ran on the latter
2024-05-07T00:59:52 < qyx> this is also an aspect of portability to some degree, albeit a different o e
2024-05-07T01:00:20 < zyp> yeah, binary portability is a different problem from source portability
2024-05-07T01:00:22 < qyx> with a static linker script and resource allocation it cannot be reasonably done
2024-05-07T01:00:53 < qyx> (ok unless you are not compiling many different firmwares)
2024-05-07T01:01:05 < zyp> the goal of the binary portability was to be able to share a single firmware build between two different microcontrollers in the same system
2024-05-07T01:01:38 < ventYl> the ultimate goal is not to share the whole firmware anyway
2024-05-07T01:01:51 < zyp> I've mentioned the project I've been making testjigs for at work, that consists of nine different boards
2024-05-07T01:01:54 < ventYl> rather to make portions of it reusable without having to change them
2024-05-07T01:02:02 < qyx> so my current opinion is fuck the whole misra and static allocation
2024-05-07T01:02:11 < zyp> eight of them run the same firmware
2024-05-07T01:02:32 < ventYl> I don't mind that I have to adjust linker script or make changes to drivers, as long as the rest of system works without modifications except of integration effort
2024-05-07T01:02:48 < zyp> and several of the boards have multiple assembly variants too
2024-05-07T01:03:49 < zyp> so the firmware detects at runtime both which boards it's running on and which variant it's been assembled for and configures IO and enables functionality accordingly
2024-05-07T01:03:57 < qyx> yeah and my current goal is to allow that for my stuff to the highest possible degree
2024-05-07T01:05:58 < zyp> if you're going that route, I figure at some point it makes sense to do a full OS/application split, putting everything hardware specific behind syscalls
2024-05-07T01:06:10 < qyx> so eg. for sram to have a MPU-aware "page" allocator feeding a per-process pools
2024-05-07T01:07:36 < qyx> oh noes, monolithic kernels are devil's invention
2024-05-07T01:08:28 < zyp> doesn't have to be monolithic, a syscall to do IPC with a hardware service still counts
2024-05-07T01:08:53 < qyx> but my life is not long enough to do it unless I go full torvalds
2024-05-07T01:10:11 < ventYl> I am still not decided if OO API on top of handle is better or worse than syscall mapped to IPC
2024-05-07T01:10:51 < ventYl> in CMRX both are technically the same thing, just they have different facade
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2024-05-07T01:40:35 < zyp> hmm, I wonder how feasible it is to do memory protection for coroutine tasks
2024-05-07T01:41:46 < zyp> preemption is easy enough, just have multiple preemptive threads with coroutine runners
2024-05-07T01:42:34 < zyp> and memory protection is in theory also easy, since you have control of where coroutine state is allocated
2024-05-07T01:44:07 < zyp> you could even dynamically grow a coroutine task without a MMU, since coroutine state doesn't have to be contiguous
2024-05-07T01:45:28 < zyp> you'd effectively be giving the task a dedicated heap, and by using a heap implementation that can allocate across multiple areas, you can add them and map them into MPU on demand
2024-05-07T01:49:26 < qyx> not that easy
2024-05-07T01:49:43 < qyx> there are weird restrictio s
2024-05-07T01:49:59 < qyx> let's start with the number of regions
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2024-05-07T09:03:02 < ventYl> zyp: unless you are willing to use MPU as kind of a Soft-MMU, this is not feasible at all
2024-05-07T09:04:08 < ventYl> it could be a little bit less unfeasible while using clang as it properly support ROPI/RWPI, yet still not usable for C++ code
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2024-05-07T09:15:15 < zyp> ventYl, huh? I'm talking about task isolation, not dynamic linking
2024-05-07T09:21:22 < qyx> zyp: that's true you have control of both data/state and the code, the challenge is to have it aligned at their size and not having anything else within that region
2024-05-07T09:21:42 < zyp> yes
2024-05-07T09:21:54 < ventYl> zyp: you mentioned dynamic grow
2024-05-07T09:21:58 < ventYl> that's unfeasible
2024-05-07T09:22:15 < zyp> ventYl, why?
2024-05-07T09:23:01 < ventYl> in typical hardware you have at most 8 protection regions. those regions usually have rule, that the base address must be region size-aligned
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2024-05-07T09:23:29 < qiaoran> HELLO!
2024-05-07T09:23:30 < ventYl> that makes dynamic grow untrivial as in the event of growth that surpassess alignment of the block, you have to realign it
2024-05-07T09:23:53 < ventYl> you may try to use sub-regions, but that's even less trivial and might not work always
2024-05-07T09:24:00 < zyp> my point is, unlike a stack, a heap doesn't have to be contiguous
2024-05-07T09:24:35 < zyp> and coroutine tasks keeps persistent state on the heap
2024-05-07T09:24:39 < qyx> yes but you won't have enough regions for maybe 2-3 non-contiguous blocks
2024-05-07T09:25:49 < qiaoran> I need help
2024-05-07T09:28:48 < ventYl> zyp: https://ventzl.github.io/cmrx/mem_model.html  this memory model consumes some 5 or 6 MPU regions out of 8 available
2024-05-07T09:28:57 < ventYl> too bad RISC-V has only four of them in most implementations
2024-05-07T09:28:57 < zyp> doesn't the cortex-m MPU have 8 or 16 regions with 8 subregions each?
2024-05-07T09:29:18 < qyx> oh but su regions aren't regions
2024-05-07T09:29:25 < qyx> *subregions
2024-05-07T09:29:30 < ventYl> no, C-M has 8 regions which can be subdivided to 8 equal "subregions"
2024-05-07T09:29:38 < zyp> yes
2024-05-07T09:29:54 < ventYl> subregions work in a fashion, that any particular 1/8 of region is either accessible or not
2024-05-07T09:30:18 < zyp> yes
2024-05-07T09:30:32 < zyp> manual says «Either 8 or 16 separate memory regions, 0-7 or 0-15 depending on your implementation.»
2024-05-07T09:30:52 < qyx> but you need one for the code, one for stack, one for io, one for .data/bss, etx
2024-05-07T09:31:08 < ventYl> 16 regions might apply for some newer cores, maybe M33
2024-05-07T09:31:10 < qyx> so not many left to play with
2024-05-07T09:31:19 < ventYl> M0+, M3, M4 and M7 all have only 8 regions
2024-05-07T09:31:33 < zyp> ventYl, I quoted the M7 manual
2024-05-07T09:31:54 < ventYl> hm, ok
2024-05-07T09:32:02 < zyp> ref. https://developer.arm.com/documentation/dui0646/c/Cortex-M7-Peripherals/Optional-Memory-Protection-Unit
2024-05-07T09:32:34 < ventYl> still the question is how many of them actually contain 16 regions and what will you do on the hardware which only contains 8
2024-05-07T09:32:45 < zyp> anyway, even if I had only three spare regions, that's 24 subregions, that each can be dynamically allocated to tasks
2024-05-07T09:33:37 < zyp> so if I have 96k of RAM for heaps, I could split that into 24 equal 4k blocks
2024-05-07T09:34:46 < ventYl> the small complication here is that the memory allocator has to live inside the kernel then
2024-05-07T09:35:59 < ventYl> *heap allocator
2024-05-07T09:36:01 < zyp> the heap implementation, you mean? nah, it's enough for the equivalent of sbrk to do
2024-05-07T09:36:23 < ventYl> you won't have an equivalent of sbrk, because you don't have MMU
2024-05-07T09:36:34 < ventYl> so the allocated space will have holes in it which only kernel will be able to identify
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2024-05-07T09:37:43 < zyp> ???
2024-05-07T09:38:24 < ventYl> well, you have to account for situation that task already owning a heap page will need another, but all nearby pages will be claimed by other tasks
2024-05-07T09:38:42 < ventYl> so allocator will assign another page, creating non-continuous address space
2024-05-07T09:38:59 < zyp> hence multizone heap implementation, that's not a novel concept
2024-05-07T09:39:50 < ventYl> that's plausible
2024-05-07T09:40:12 < zyp> see e.g. freertos' heap_5: https://www.freertos.org/a00111.html
2024-05-07T09:40:21 < zyp> just with dynamic allocation of regions
2024-05-07T09:42:06 < ventYl> that's simple enough I could even implement it
2024-05-07T09:42:56 < ventYl> not the heap allocator itself, fuck that. just the creepy sbrk()
2024-05-07T09:44:21 < ventYl> hm, with "standard" startups, data occupy 2/3 regions
2024-05-07T09:44:29 < ventYl> because .data, .bss and .shared for IPC
2024-05-07T09:45:55 < ventYl> actually I use very similar algorithm to allocate stacks, so most of the code is already in there
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2024-05-07T09:50:04 < qyx> customer states "the right LED blinks in 1 second intervals"
2024-05-07T09:50:22 < qyx> the catch is the device orientation is arbitrary
2024-05-07T09:50:46 < qyx> there are two LEDs, white one and a red one, I didn't consider color blindness
2024-05-07T09:52:06 < ventYl> zyp: I will implement that as I've been toying with process-local heap anyway. My original idea is simply to reserve per-process heap at compile time
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2024-05-07T10:00:54 < qiaoran> 这里有中国人吗？
2024-05-07T10:01:23 < qiaoran> chinese people not found......
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2024-05-07T10:02:19 < BrainDamage> there's at least one on the telegram channel whom shares many users with this one
2024-05-07T10:02:37 < qyx> is he chinese, does it count
2024-05-07T10:02:51 < qyx> qiaoran: we are all expecting the question
2024-05-07T10:03:46 < qiaoran> "Today, I encountered a very tricky problem. The ST-Link has been installed successfully and is working properly. However, after installing the cross-compiler chain, the C language program I wrote cannot be compiled into a binary file that STM32 can execute correctly, and it also results in errors, which is very frustrating."
2024-05-07T10:09:18 < ventYl> if your program yields build errors, then you wrote something wrong in there. 
2024-05-07T10:09:36 < qiaoran> "The cross-compiler toolchain I installed using apt is not compiling STM32 C language programs properly."
2024-05-07T10:10:10 < BrainDamage> what's the toolchain name?
2024-05-07T10:12:01 < qiaoran> I am using the Debian operating system.
2024-05-07T10:12:26 < qiaoran> I am trying to use machine translation to understand what you are saying because my English is very poor.
2024-05-07T10:13:02 < BrainDamage> what is the name of the package in debian?
2024-05-07T10:14:54 < qiaoran> Checking......
2024-05-07T10:15:29 < qiaoran> gcc-arm-none-eabi
2024-05-07T10:16:29 < qiaoran> The toolchain was installed smoothly, but during the compilation process, I encountered issues due to using a different model. Either the header files were not found, or some variables were undefined. I was using a sample program for this.
2024-05-07T10:16:47 < BrainDamage> that should be the correct one
2024-05-07T10:16:54 < qiaoran> This is extremely frustrating, to the point that for a while afterwards, I immersed myself in studying other things.
2024-05-07T10:17:20 < qiaoran> This is extremely frustrating, to the point that for a while afterwards, I immersed myself in studying other things.
2024-05-07T10:17:24 < BrainDamage> you'll need to share the code and the error to further debug this
2024-05-07T10:17:46 < qiaoran> Now I am ready to tackle the issue and am seeking your help.
2024-05-07T10:19:45 < qyx> which sample project are you trying to compile?
2024-05-07T10:20:26 < qiaoran> I will first use SSH to remotely connect to my laptop, because it's inconvenient for me to use HexChat on it (mainly because the screen is too harmful to my eyes, and I am currently using the tablet's AndroIRC client to connect), and then I will copy the relevant information to you.
2024-05-07T10:22:53 < qiaoran> Understood. You'll respond later as you are currently looking into the issue and will send us the key information from the terminal output. If you need assistance with interpreting or resolving the issue based on the terminal output, feel free to share it when you're ready.
2024-05-07T10:23:24 < qyx> what
2024-05-07T10:23:48 < BrainDamage> remember it's a machine translation
2024-05-07T10:24:09 < BrainDamage> qyx^
2024-05-07T10:24:38 < qiaoran> ┌──(qiaoran㉿lenovo)-[~]
2024-05-07T10:24:38 < qiaoran> └─$ arm-none-eabi-gcc
2024-05-07T10:24:38 < qiaoran> arm-none-eabi-gcc: fatal error: no input files
2024-05-07T10:24:38 < qiaoran> compilation terminated.
2024-05-07T10:24:38 < qiaoran> ┌──(qiaoran㉿lenovo)-[~]
2024-05-07T10:24:38 < qiaoran> └─$
2024-05-07T10:24:53 < qyx> yeah but, see
2024-05-07T10:26:16 < qyx> qiaoran: I recommend you to go back to the beginning and check some tutorial on the internet and try to follow it
2024-05-07T10:26:26 < qyx> because you are missing some essential bits
2024-05-07T10:27:59 < qyx> you have to choose first which framework/libs you will use, there are multiple options
2024-05-07T10:28:31 < qiaoran> I NEED A TIME READY,WAIT A
2024-05-07T10:32:11 < qiaoran> 明白了，您需要翻译的句子是：“现在可以发给你们了”。
2024-05-07T10:32:11 < qiaoran> 翻译成英文是："Now it can be sent to you all."
2024-05-07T10:33:39 < qiaoran> Now I can send the relevant information to you.
2024-05-07T10:40:28 < qiaoran> ┌──(qiaoran㉿lenovo)-[~/Desktop]
2024-05-07T10:40:28 < qiaoran> └─$ arm-none-eabi-gcc led.c
2024-05-07T10:40:28 < qiaoran> led.c:1:27: warning: extra tokens at end of #include directive
2024-05-07T10:40:28 < qiaoran> 1 |     #include "stm32f10x.h": O  D7 s' T: g* A
2024-05-07T10:40:28 < qiaoran> |                           ^
2024-05-07T10:40:28 < qiaoran> led.c:1:36: warning: missing terminating ' character
2024-05-07T10:40:28 < qiaoran> 1 |     #include "stm32f10x.h": O  D7 s' T: g* A
2024-05-07T10:40:29 < qiaoran> |                                    ^
2024-05-07T10:40:29 < qiaoran> led.c:1:14: fatal error: stm32f10x.h: No such file or directory
2024-05-07T10:40:30 < qiaoran> 1 |     #include "stm32f10x.h": O  D7 s' T: g* A
2024-05-07T10:40:30 < qiaoran> |              ^~~~~~~~~~~~~
2024-05-07T10:40:31 < qiaoran> compilation terminated.
2024-05-07T10:41:14 < qiaoran> Damn it, where on earth do I find that header file?
2024-05-07T10:43:07 < qiaoran> Feeling a bit troubled.
2024-05-07T10:44:38 < ventYl> qiaoran: Please, use some form of pastebin to post listings. something like pastebin.org
2024-05-07T10:45:27 < qiaoran> ok
2024-05-07T10:58:04 < qiaoran> "I'm going to write an empty program, and without any errors, then try to compile it with arm-none-eabi-gcc to see the outcome."
2024-05-07T10:59:31 < qiaoran> "Please wait for me, I will continue after dinner time (which is 3:58 PM our time in China)."
2024-05-07T10:59:36 < qiaoran> THANK YOU
2024-05-07T11:00:23 < qiaoran> Goodbye
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2024-05-07T12:07:50 < karlp> zyp: I keep telling you you need a readme on laks too.  and maybe admit that dev_v2 is main as well...
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2024-05-07T12:11:15 < ventYl> meh, I only have one region left
2024-05-07T12:11:56 < zyp> karlp, second point: absolutely
2024-05-07T12:12:17 < zyp> and first point: yeah
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2024-05-07T12:21:11 < karlp> I still remember it sucking to get laks to build the same code twice. I've kinda blocked out the pain of it now.
2024-05-07T12:21:24 < karlp> but that's likely a scons thing, more than a laks thing.
2024-05-07T12:21:54 < karlp> maybe one day I'll find the brane for hobby laks again...
2024-05-07T12:22:35 < zyp> next time I do something about the laks build system, I'm probably switching it to putting all temporaries in dedicated directories
2024-05-07T12:23:13 < zyp> idk, depends a bit on *when* that'll be
2024-05-07T12:23:14 < karlp> yes, that would be nice too.
2024-05-07T12:23:29 < karlp> I was often mixing up which file to open when I was doing new stuff, the source vs the generated.
2024-05-07T12:24:01 < karlp> if qiaoran comes back, https://github.com/libopencm3/libopencm3-miniblink might be useful, it's designed to be dumb simple to help test your toolchain+debugger middleware stack are working.
2024-05-07T12:24:49 < zyp> I'd like to use C++20 modules, so I figure next time I do anything about the laks build system is to enable that
2024-05-07T12:26:22 < zyp> scons has a WIP PR for module support that I haven't gotten around to try: https://github.com/SCons/scons/pull/4248
2024-05-07T12:26:45 < zyp> but I don't really want to depend on stuff that's not upstreamed
2024-05-07T12:28:09 < zyp> between the choices of relying on an unmerged scons PR or making my own build system, I'd probably pick the latter
2024-05-07T12:28:46 < ventYl> that seems to be the worse of two options
2024-05-07T12:28:57 < zyp> not really
2024-05-07T12:29:57 < zyp> I mean, I share your concerns, I was annoyed by weird makefiles doing silly and weird stuff a few weeks ago
2024-05-07T12:31:27 < zyp> but still, a custom build system for laks could afford to be opinionated since it'd only be concerned about laks' needs
2024-05-07T12:32:36 < zyp> the scons stuff for laks is already piling a bunch of stuff on top of scons, relying on scons for the dependency scanning, dependency graph tracking and execution
2024-05-07T12:33:57 < ventYl> what exactly is the laks-specific stuff? i am able to recognize only some jinja calls, which is something I don't know what it is
2024-05-07T12:34:44 < zyp> tracking and executing a dependency graph is relatively easy, it's the dependency scanning that's the hard part, and once P1689 support lands I can outsource that to the compiler
2024-05-07T12:35:18 < zyp> and what makes it easier at that point is that I can be opinionated about how module temporaries are named
2024-05-07T12:35:33 < zyp> P1689: https://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2022/p1689r5.html
2024-05-07T12:36:16 < ventYl> one issue I see with SCons is that people of embedded are super-grumpy about anything else than bare makefiles, however messy they are
2024-05-07T12:36:18 < zyp> AIUI upstream gcc has an implementation already, but won't be released until gcc-14 or something
2024-05-07T12:36:27 < zyp> well, yeah
2024-05-07T12:36:37 < ventYl> they are supe-grumpy about CMake and I'd assume they'd be ultra-super grumpy about SCons
2024-05-07T12:37:01 < zyp> I stopped giving a fuck about what «people of embedded» thinks when I started laks
2024-05-07T12:37:09 < ventYl> so custom buildsystem would land the "fuck no" area
2024-05-07T12:37:27 < karlp> don't negotiate with terrorists....
2024-05-07T12:37:34 < zyp> I mean, laks has been a «let's do it better than the traditional way» from the beginning
2024-05-07T12:37:50 < karlp> you eend up with what my work has got, which is "make, because we must have make" that drives cmake, that makes makefiles....
2024-05-07T12:38:24 < karlp> ventYl: these days you have a bunch of people who _only_ want cmake, because that's "native" in clion and places :)
2024-05-07T12:38:25 < ventYl> I've seen that already. with make driving cmake, which drives ninja
2024-05-07T12:38:28 < karlp> and it works well on windows.
2024-05-07T12:38:46 < ventYl> karlp: I want CMake because it is the only sane *and* widely adopted tool
2024-05-07T12:38:54 < ventYl> *reasonably sane
2024-05-07T12:38:59 < zyp> IMO there's a lot of value in standard build systems, if you're building standard software
2024-05-07T12:39:05 < karlp> ventYl: at least in my shitbox environment, if I let cmake drive ninja, it breaks kconfig, because the make-cmake-ninja chain breaks something's terminal expectations...
2024-05-07T12:39:42 < ventYl> zyp: well this mostly depends on if you care about other people at all. if you consider yourself as the main consumer of the work, then whatever
2024-05-07T12:39:42 < karlp> I just hate how cmake is "look, we'll make it all clear and define things, don't create programming spaghetti like in make"
2024-05-07T12:40:20 < ventYl> if your intention is to make your work at least somehow widely usable, then custom solutions are probably bad decision
2024-05-07T12:40:56 < jpa-> for some of my stuff, if i cared about other people i'd delete the readme to keep people away
2024-05-07T12:40:58 < qyx> cmake is the only build system I know which caches configuration
2024-05-07T12:41:01 < jpa-> but i don't care, so let them suffer!
2024-05-07T12:41:26 < ventYl> karlp: make is essentially the same, declarative by nature, allowing ugly procedural blocks
2024-05-07T12:41:27 < jpa-> qyx: scons can cache too
2024-05-07T12:41:33 < qyx> which is not anything my brian wants to accept, so no cmake for me
2024-05-07T12:41:34 < zyp> ventYl, yeah, that was also one of the original design goals for laks
2024-05-07T12:43:56 < ventYl> zyp: ignore other people?
2024-05-07T12:44:27 < jpa-> to scratch your own crotch?
2024-05-07T12:44:48 < zyp> ventYl, reusable code that I can share between *my* projects
2024-05-07T12:45:28 < ventYl> zyp: anyway, it turns out that the page allocator is the easier portion of the page allocator. everything else is damn hard. like, for example to free up pages when the owning process dies
2024-05-07T12:45:52 < ventYl> mostly because there is no concept of process dying
2024-05-07T12:46:31 < zyp> if the process can't die, when will you even free up pages?
2024-05-07T12:47:03 < ventYl> process can't die, but all of its threads can, and that's not even a fault state
2024-05-07T12:47:15 < ventYl> as "process" is not the right name for the stuff. it is more like "virtual machine"
2024-05-07T12:47:36 < ventYl> or maybe even better one: "container"
2024-05-07T12:48:15 < zyp> I figure you have to track which pages are owned by a task in any case so you can tell the MPU that, and I also figure you'll have few enough pages you can just track it as a bitmap
2024-05-07T12:48:24 < zyp> yeah, container sounds good
2024-05-07T12:48:31 < zyp> I like that
2024-05-07T12:48:51 < ventYl> container is the best one, because process implies that something is done within it at any particular time
2024-05-07T12:49:16 < ventYl> which is not truth in CMRX, as "process" can be just a host for IPC services. these then create or host threads based on IPC activity
2024-05-07T12:49:33 < ventYl> so process with allocated memory and services but no threads is a perfectly valid state
2024-05-07T12:50:50 < ventYl> hm, it probably doesn't even matter. it may be perfectly valid to have a process with no threads that holds some dynamically allocated pages. I just have to provide some way to drop them all.
2024-05-07T12:53:04 < ventYl> bitmap-based tracking is trivial, I do that for stacks already: https://github.com/ventZl/cmrx/blob/master/src/os/kernel/sched.c#L219
2024-05-07T12:53:55 < ventYl> the last limitation is lack of available regions for page-based allocator as currently there is only one unused region
2024-05-07T12:54:09 < ventYl> I have to find a way how to assign regions in somehow dynamic manner
2024-05-07T12:54:45 < ventYl> good thing is, that it is mostly just a configuration issue as runtime doesn't care where the MPU region description comes from as long as it is valid
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2024-05-07T13:42:05 < qyx> would you consider a SPI display "bad" for SoC with lunix?
2024-05-07T13:46:33 < zyp> why?
2024-05-07T13:46:59 < qyx> idk I just don't want to mess around with rgb/mipi
2024-05-07T13:47:14 < zyp> I probably wouldn't want to use a SPI display for x11/wayland type graphics
2024-05-07T13:47:46 < qyx> it is for a handheld device, some 4" 480x480px
2024-05-07T13:48:00 < qyx> ncurses is sufficient :>
2024-05-07T14:10:49 < c10ud> rgb with lunix is way easier
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2024-05-07T14:28:56 < qiaoran> Hello!
2024-05-07T14:30:21 < qiaoran> I at train self hit word!
2024-05-07T14:32:22 < PaulFertser> qiaoran: I suggest you show yyour source code with hexdump -C or other similar way because obviously you have some odd stray bytes there inside.
2024-05-07T14:34:10 < PaulFertser> qiaoran: the the includes, you're supposed to use some library for specific MCUs and add include path for that explicitly. And in any case people normally do not run gcc manually, they use some make system and there're plenty of necessary options needed to build an MCU binary properly.
2024-05-07T14:34:56 < qyx> 09:24 < karlp> if qiaoran comes back, https://github.com/libopencm3/libopencm3-miniblink might be useful, it's designed to be dumb simple to help test your toolchain+debugger middleware stack are working.
2024-05-07T14:39:17 < qiaoran> I know,Thank you :)
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2024-05-07T16:18:39 < karlp> godamn, "expects unsigned int" but arg has type "uint32_t" {aka long unsigned int}" has got to be my _least_ favourite error in arm32 world ever.
2024-05-07T16:36:53 < polprog> huh, ints are 16b on arm32?
2024-05-07T16:37:04 < karlp> no, long ints and ints are the same size.
2024-05-07T16:37:12 < karlp> but the compiler doesn't actually believe that...
2024-05-07T16:37:16 < polprog> (i wouldnt know, i always use stdint headers)
2024-05-07T16:37:17 < polprog> lol
2024-05-07T16:43:48 < karlp> "hur hur, they are different types, hur hur"
2024-05-07T16:51:38 < PaulFertser> Type safety is usually good and helping to catch bugs early.
2024-05-07T16:52:08 < karlp> yes yes, but %u vs "uint32_t" is dumb.
2024-05-07T16:52:11 < karlp> i hate it.
2024-05-07T16:52:35 < karlp> and " PRIu32 " is gross too
2024-05-07T16:54:51 < PaulFertser> But printf needs to know the right size...
2024-05-07T16:55:03 < karlp> indeed, size, not type... :)
2024-05-07T16:55:04 < PaulFertser> And C code is cross-platform
2024-05-07T16:55:10 < karlp> I know, it's  just fucking gross and I hate it.
2024-05-07T16:55:16 < PaulFertser> OK
2024-05-07T16:55:20 < PaulFertser> printf is gross
2024-05-07T16:55:29 < PaulFertser> Is Rust gross?
2024-05-07T16:55:32 < zyp> I'll second that, printf is gross
2024-05-07T16:55:36 < karlp> yes, it has too many ' in it.
2024-05-07T16:55:57 < karlp> what, truly, is the alternatve to "formatted printing" ?
2024-05-07T16:56:21 < karlp> I mean, print("{myvar}") is nice, sure...
2024-05-07T16:56:36 < karlp> getting rid of having to tie the type into the format would be nice.
2024-05-07T16:56:54 < PaulFertser> std::print ?
2024-05-07T16:57:14 < karlp> PaulFertser: and yes, "C" might be cross platform,but not once it's compiled, it's defined right then what they are.
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2024-05-07T18:39:09 < qyx> 13:56 < karlp> I mean, print("{myvar}") is nice, sure...
2024-05-07T18:39:12 < qyx> no it is not
2024-05-07T18:39:36 < qyx> printf is not gross, justthe implementation is
2024-05-07T18:40:35 < qyx> fuk long long whatever, we have signed/unsigned and 8/16/32/..
2024-05-07T18:41:14 < qyx> I would be ok with %b %B, %h %H, %w %W or anything like that
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2024-05-07T18:50:01 < karlp> so... %u ?
2024-05-07T18:50:32 < karlp> I mean, that's my point, if that is just meant to mean "4 bytes of unsigned" then ... i don't give a shit if I gave ita  "long" or an "int" if those are both four bytes.
2024-05-07T18:51:14 < qyx> yeah that's my point too but int is not always 4 byte
2024-05-07T18:51:26 < karlp> it is at compile time though.
2024-05-07T18:51:27 < qyx> it should only emit the warning if it doesn't match
2024-05-07T18:52:15 < qyx> anyway we should forget all non-specific-width types forever
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2024-05-07T23:37:16 < nomorekaki> early hello?
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2024-05-07T23:59:12 < Steffanx> You're a little early nomorekaki 
2024-05-07T23:59:23 < Steffanx> Early isn't here yet
--- Day changed ke touko 08 2024
2024-05-08T00:00:16 < nomorekaki> very very early
2024-05-08T00:02:00 < nomorekaki> how is jubb Steffanx?
2024-05-08T00:05:53 < Steffanx> Busy but not too bad
2024-05-08T00:06:06 < Steffanx> How's the jubb there?
2024-05-08T00:06:16 < nomorekaki> farming not started yet
2024-05-08T00:06:20 < Steffanx> Deadlines are a little too early though.
2024-05-08T00:06:32 < nomorekaki> in couple of days farming
2024-05-08T00:16:27 < nomorekaki> when do you have summer holiday Steffanx?
2024-05-08T00:39:50 < Steffanx> nomorekaki: I don't know yet
2024-05-08T00:40:51 < nomorekaki> do you get to decide?
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2024-05-08T00:51:18 < Steffanx> Yeah. 
2024-05-08T00:51:38 < Steffanx> I just don't know yet. 
2024-05-08T00:53:12 < nomorekaki> statistically pick a weather period of your liking?
2024-05-08T00:53:39 < Steffanx> Yeah, that hard here in dutchland 
2024-05-08T00:54:40 < nomorekaki> are you doing one holiday period or split?
2024-05-08T00:54:41 < Steffanx> I dislike the rain. I dislike temperatures over 25°C. And you never know what you'll get.. 
2024-05-08T00:55:13 < nomorekaki> interesting
2024-05-08T00:55:34 < nomorekaki> in funland the temperature is predictable
2024-05-08T00:56:04 < nomorekaki> last week of june to half way to july is the hot period
2024-05-08T00:56:27 < Steffanx> No global heating random high temperatures in Funland yet?
2024-05-08T00:56:44 < nomorekaki> impossible
2024-05-08T00:57:05 < nomorekaki> only random snow
2024-05-08T00:57:08 < nomorekaki> in summer
2024-05-08T00:57:23 < Steffanx> Last time I was in funland it was damn hot, but I don't remember which month it was. Must have been late in July or early in August 
2024-05-08T00:57:53 < nomorekaki> there was one summer that had like 2 days above 25C
2024-05-08T00:58:04 < nomorekaki> recently
2024-05-08T00:59:15 < Steffanx> Ok it was mid August. I checked. 
2024-05-08T01:00:39 < Steffanx> This wasn't recently though. Last time was 14 years ago -_-
2024-05-08T01:01:33 < nomorekaki> august nice
2024-05-08T01:01:43 < nomorekaki> not that rainy
2024-05-08T01:01:49 < nomorekaki> but warm
2024-05-08T01:01:55 < Steffanx> Good old lappeenranta times with the Russians.
2024-05-08T01:03:08 < nomorekaki> sometimes august has warm days
2024-05-08T01:03:28 < nomorekaki> like multiple days above 25c in late august
2024-05-08T01:03:38 < Steffanx> All the Russians "studying" in lappeenranta for a visa to travel around a bit.
2024-05-08T01:04:09 < nomorekaki> back then it was free too
2024-05-08T01:04:31 < nomorekaki> maybe get even finnish moneys for studyings idk
2024-05-08T01:04:57 < Steffanx> I recall it Lappeenranta was also a easy way into Russia/saint Petersburg. But those times are probably gone. 
2024-05-08T01:05:24 < nomorekaki> tourism is gone
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2024-05-08T01:06:32 < nomorekaki> it kinda stopped earlier when ruble tanked
2024-05-08T01:07:23 < nomorekaki> 2014
2024-05-08T01:07:30 < nomorekaki> or something
2024-05-08T01:08:29 < Steffanx> I didn't even sauna.. 
2024-05-08T01:09:02 < nomorekaki> that's wrong
2024-05-08T01:10:26 < Steffanx> Talking about arong. The aviation museum was closed..
2024-05-08T01:10:33 < Steffanx> Wrong*
2024-05-08T01:10:47 < nomorekaki> altought young students always doesn't have the facilities to organize rituals
2024-05-08T01:11:28 < nomorekaki> the national aviation museum in helsinki-vantaa airport?
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2024-05-08T01:13:59 < qyx> Steffanx: so make your holiday in jan/feb in Alps
2024-05-08T01:14:14 < qyx> definitely not going to be 25°C
2024-05-08T01:14:42 < Steffanx> jbo made me regret that. 😜
2024-05-08T01:15:22 < qyx> that's sad
2024-05-08T01:15:24 < Steffanx> Regret going to the alps that is.
2024-05-08T01:16:34 < nomorekaki> it's when you stopped drinking beer after?
2024-05-08T01:18:11 < jbo> :(
2024-05-08T01:18:18 < jbo> it was literally the worst weather week in years
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2024-05-08T01:37:00 < nomorekaki> I have never had any urge to go to alps
2024-05-08T01:38:03 < nomorekaki> oh actually I have been at alps but in summer
2024-05-08T01:39:23 < nomorekaki> rainy and stuff felt like summer back home just bigger hills
2024-05-08T01:48:09 < nomorekaki> everything felt really commercial
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2024-05-08T02:56:32 < jbo> u went to the wrong places
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2024-05-08T11:41:55 < Steffanx> What's the right place jbo?  
2024-05-08T11:58:01 < qyx> the nature, steff, nature
2024-05-08T11:59:59 < BrainDamage> Steffanx: huddled in a smalll wooden hut with a fireplace, jbo on the side and an obnoxious amount of snow blocking the exit
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2024-05-08T12:42:25 < karlp> was someone here talking about having problems with DFU when their ext crystal was "legal but not" ?
2024-05-08T12:42:46 < karlp> looks like weact studio found out too, switched form 25 to 8: "3. F411CE 8M HSE: New version, the external crystal is 8M. Software use need to pay attention.Easier to enter dfu mode by usb."
2024-05-08T12:45:10 < jpa-> that's probably the 24 vs. 25 MHz autodetection issue when HSI is too far off
2024-05-08T12:45:29 < jpa-> i had a different issue recently where external crystal didn't start up fast enough because of its load capacitance
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2024-05-08T13:11:20 < Steffanx> BrainDamage can I leave jbo outside?
2024-05-08T13:28:09 < sauce> that sounds like an ideal configuration, if only because it's much easier to dig in than out
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2024-05-08T15:23:18 < ventYl> one downside of new hipster opensource software is that nobody bothers writing documentation
2024-05-08T15:23:23 < ventYl> *any*
2024-05-08T15:45:50 < Steffanx> You're free to write it. 🥳
2024-05-08T16:04:40 < karlp> ventYl: as opposed to what?
2024-05-08T16:37:43 < jpa-> do ventYl's own projects have docs? :)
2024-05-08T16:40:30 < qyx> mine don't
2024-05-08T16:41:28 < jpa-> mine do, at least some, but i still receive constant complaints that the docs are not good enough
2024-05-08T16:43:41 < BrainDamage> jpa-: out of curiosity, have you seen this somewhat famous talk? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azf6yzuJt54
2024-05-08T16:46:26 < jpa-> nope
2024-05-08T16:48:21 < BrainDamage> I wholeheartly recomend because it gives you a sort of framework to write doc
2024-05-08T16:48:35 < BrainDamage> like what to write and how to organize existing one
2024-05-08T16:49:35 < jpa-> i guess i would have to care first
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2024-05-08T17:33:57 < PaulFertser> qyx: I saw some rather elaborate README in your MIPI-no-DCMI code
2024-05-08T18:11:16 < qyx> thats funny because that one is very old, very bad, very unusable and it has the most stars
2024-05-08T18:11:27 < qyx> idk why
2024-05-08T18:11:33 < fenugrec> because it had the best docs
2024-05-08T18:12:17 < qyx> noo
2024-05-08T18:19:03 < ventYl> jpa-: those published do
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2024-05-08T22:16:42 < qyx> I do want an U5 test board, should I:
2024-05-08T22:17:20 < qyx> 1. make an easy one with the complexity of a nucleo but with hyperbus memories added
2024-05-08T22:17:39 < qyx> 2. make a complex one
2024-05-08T22:17:59 < qyx> 3. buy a complex one (that ST's devboard)
2024-05-08T22:18:10 < qyx> 4. make a product which would take me 3 years
2024-05-08T22:22:43 -!- qyx_ [~qyx@84.245.120.190] has joined ##stm32
2024-05-08T22:22:50 < qyx_> 5. buy a new internet
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2024-05-08T22:42:44 < qyx_> oh stm32c011 in qfn20?
2024-05-08T22:46:55 < jpa-> 6. spend a month designing a fancy pcb, never bother to assemble it
2024-05-08T22:52:16 < qyx_> yeah known story too
2024-05-08T22:59:33 < qyx_> so, tomorrow I have to do some actual $work to earn some money
2024-05-08T22:59:59 < qyx_> with that knowledge I plan to invest the next 2 hours into something which would eventually make me either happy or smarter
2024-05-08T23:00:22 < qyx_> so far, procrastination continues
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2024-05-08T23:46:23 < benishor> qyx_: pr0n never fails to deliver
--- Day changed to touko 09 2024
2024-05-09T00:46:53 < zyp> 7. make a testrack module for u5
2024-05-09T00:47:16 < zyp> I'll trade you a breakout for an assembled module
2024-05-09T00:48:59 < zyp> https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/998371828609327224/1096560524830982335/IMG_20230412_185815.jpg?ex=663ca352&is=663b51d2&hm=fb6a1594d475e1374b8a4f95adf7d5350d06a5a9165664fbe0f35a22c77de0a2&
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2024-05-09T10:52:46 < qyx_> zyp: heh
2024-05-09T10:52:54 -!- qyx_ is now known as qyx
2024-05-09T10:53:30 < qyx> read local news in the morning to increase the blood pressure properly, now I can continue working
2024-05-09T11:00:12 < BrainDamage> free coffee?
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2024-05-09T11:33:16 < Steffanx> You're doing it wrong qyx
2024-05-09T11:34:04 < Steffanx> Learn to read the news and feel indifferent 
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2024-05-09T12:49:42 < qyx> fuk I hate python, if I run flash in a separate process, very surprised pikachu I cannot see changes happening outside
2024-05-09T12:49:48 < qyx> *flask
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2024-05-09T13:07:47 < qyx> k run as a thread, set daemon=True because flask.run() si stupid
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2024-05-09T14:48:16 < qyx> STM32U5A9 not in stock in mouser yet but digikey has it
2024-05-09T14:48:30 < qyx> TFBGA216, 0.8 mm pitch
2024-05-09T14:48:48 < qyx> 2.5 MB of SRAM, much data, so wow
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2024-05-09T16:04:03 < Steffanx> Time to run lunix?
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2024-05-09T18:20:10 < qyx> no.
2024-05-09T18:20:22 < qyx> pro barebonez
2024-05-09T18:34:41 < mawk> run lunix with preempt-rt
2024-05-09T18:34:45 < mawk> best of both worlds
2024-05-09T18:35:47 < gurki> worst*
2024-05-09T18:41:49 < mawk> of course processes don't see changes from one another qyx
2024-05-09T18:41:55 < mawk> that's what processes are for 
2024-05-09T18:42:09 < mawk> but you don't usually need to see changes
2024-05-09T18:42:14 < mawk> you use a common database
2024-05-09T18:42:23 < mawk> or shared memory if you really want
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2024-05-09T18:58:32 < qyx> of course I know but how shoukd I know the code I copypasted did that with a process
2024-05-09T18:58:42 < qyx> my code that I copypasted
2024-05-09T19:00:37 < gurki> the fact that this is _your_ code raises some questions^^
2024-05-09T19:06:06 < qyx> because interwebs said if you want to run flask on the background, do it with a subprocess.Process
2024-05-09T19:06:20 < qyx> oh and if you want to kuill it afterwards, just call terminate(), join()
2024-05-09T19:07:02 < qyx> stackoverflow agreed, so I just did that in the blind belief it is the right and only one approach
2024-05-09T19:07:10 < qyx> (5 years later)
2024-05-09T19:07:19 < gurki> happens to all of us.
2024-05-09T19:07:43 < qyx> browsing interwebs again and I am starting to believe those pythoners out there are like alice in wonderland
2024-05-09T19:08:15 < qyx> now the recommended way is to send a sigkill to that process to terminate the run() loop
2024-05-09T19:08:18 < qyx> why..
2024-05-09T19:08:25 < octorian> Always an interesting feeling when you're actively watching a project you're using, and you discover its maintainer is also actively watching yours :-)
2024-05-09T19:08:43 < gurki> i think thats an accurate description of pythoners
2024-05-09T19:08:59 < qyx> (so I just spawned a thread and set daemon=True and everything is ok)
2024-05-09T19:09:13 < octorian> Been using CherryUSB, and I've started to discover that some things I've changed/fixed locally have made it into upstream without me having to write a ticket.  Then, I noticed my name was on the copyright of a class driver that was recently added :-)
2024-05-09T19:09:38 < gurki> sounds like these are nice guys :)
2024-05-09T19:09:40 < qyx> did you do a copyrighted work without noticing?
2024-05-09T19:09:59 < qyx> that's an interesting thing from the law standpoint
2024-05-09T19:10:34 < gurki> well that depends on the license he used for his stuff
2024-05-09T19:10:44 < gurki> if he asked for these things to be included ...
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2024-05-09T19:16:59 < octorian> My stuff is all licensed in a way that he can do that.  I really don't mind.
2024-05-09T19:18:11 < octorian> I actually forked all his serial device class drivers in my project, because I wanted to put their state and handles under a common interface.  Something that, if he does directly, I'll consider just pulling in.
2024-05-09T19:19:23 < octorian> Or to be a bit more direct, I didn't want to have to statically allocate state for a half-dozen different class drivers, if only one of them is likely to ever be used at a given time.
2024-05-09T19:19:30 < octorian> But I can't predict which one in advance.
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2024-05-09T22:43:05 < qyx> no innovation today?
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2024-05-09T23:13:19 < qyx> oh https://github.com/gkostka/lwext4
2024-05-09T23:13:30 < qyx> finally something more serious than fat32
2024-05-09T23:15:26 < qyx> nah it fails to import stdint.h and such
2024-05-09T23:44:55 < aandrew> hah
2024-05-09T23:45:16 < aandrew> I have my fancy secure key/value library, hoping I can MIT license that
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2024-05-09T23:45:56 < qyx> lmk then
2024-05-09T23:46:09 < aandrew> had it working with internal flash on STM32, then wrote a very basic spiflash driver that runs on microblaze (or anything) now it's just some additional hardware drivers
2024-05-09T23:46:41 < aandrew> I have to really take a closer look at locking too, I think there are some more opportunities for enhancement there so it's happier in a multithreaded environment without using a big lock for the entire library
2024-05-09T23:47:17 < aandrew> also implemented a very simple CAM which seems to reduce the number of times it hits hardware anywhere from 10-50% depending on the use case
2024-05-09T23:48:32 < aandrew> theres a neat opportunity to change the way it does "[storage] pool rotation" but it kind of breaks the modularity a bit but I can fix that
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2024-05-09T23:49:05 < aandrew> right now it likes to have two same-sized pools and when one gets full it "rotates" the pools (copies all in-use blocks ot the new pool) but that's kind of wasteful
2024-05-09T23:50:23 < aandrew> with smaller erase sizes I can change that behaviour so instead of waiting for a write to fail, when the free blocks falls under 2x the erase page size it will "rotate" the pool by finding an erase-page-sized block of dirty/erased blocks and erasing that instead. 
2024-05-09T23:50:59 < aandrew> it'd find that kind of like how the old DOS defrag utilities work - move blocks around to "create" the space needed, then erase it. do that a few times until there's enough free space to satisfy whatever the criteria is
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2024-05-09T23:51:35 < aandrew> and for eeprom-style storage it can just update in place if the sizes are the same (or if there's empty space after the old data block)
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2024-05-10T11:55:12 < qyx> tinyusb/cherryusb for a simple ACM device?
2024-05-10T11:58:32 < jpa-> cube
2024-05-10T11:59:53 < qyx> noooo
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2024-05-10T12:15:48 < Steffanx> qyx diy.
2024-05-10T12:25:45 < karlp> zyp: meh, discord links like that don't last :|
2024-05-10T12:26:45 < zyp> ah, yeah, IIRC they used to, until they recently made their CDN stricter
2024-05-10T12:28:34 < karlp> interesting license arrangement on that lwext4...
2024-05-10T12:29:59 < qyx> apparently someone contributed a gpl2 code
2024-05-10T12:30:17 < qyx> but only some non-essential parts
2024-05-10T12:30:22 < qyx> xatrs and one another
2024-05-10T12:31:24 < karlp> still interesting...
2024-05-10T12:32:52 < qyx> gpl2-only sounds like linux
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2024-05-10T16:09:32 < karlp> vschode winning: minimize font size (by accident) in one window (project) shrinks the text in all other windows too...
2024-05-10T16:09:37 < karlp> so much for independence
2024-05-10T16:10:30 < qyx> I would expect this setting to be global
2024-05-10T16:14:51 < jpa-> i wouldn't expect, but apparently it is for me too
2024-05-10T16:16:18 < jpa-> especially as IIRC the ctrl +/- zoom is not even persistent
2024-05-10T16:17:18 < jpa-> apparently if you enable mouse wheel zoom then you can zoom single editor views
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2024-05-10T16:52:29 < c10ud> holy hell stm32f76xxx dma matrix is pure shit
2024-05-10T16:58:04 < mawk> you use cube to set it up and forget about it
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2024-05-10T17:01:40 < c10ud> cube can't fix the matrix unfortunately, just assign the shitty combinations :)
2024-05-10T17:03:00 < ColdKeyboard> Anyone aware of a "pure-hw" solution for USB over ethernet?
2024-05-10T17:07:07 < zyp> like this? https://www.digi.com/products/networking/infrastructure-management/usb-connectivity/usb-over-ip/anywhereusb
2024-05-10T17:07:20 < zyp> don't know anything about it, just turned up on a google search
2024-05-10T17:09:15 < zyp> hmm, looks like it's still only hardware on the device side, host side looks like a software driver
2024-05-10T17:10:15 < zyp> what problem are you trying to solve anyway? USB/IP exists, but I don't think I'd want to put myself in the position of having to rely on it :p
2024-05-10T17:23:26 < PaulFertser> https://uxdesign.cc/how-do-you-accidentally-run-for-president-of-iceland-0d71a4785a1e
2024-05-10T17:35:35 < karlp> at least it got fixed...
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2024-05-10T18:37:52 < ColdKeyboard> Just thinking it would be a neat feature to have a two USB-over-IP HW dongles, one is host one is device and it's "plug&play" sort of
2024-05-10T18:38:23 < ColdKeyboard> Could be useful to run dongles, printers, mice, oscilloscope/PSU over network. Just an example
2024-05-10T18:38:57 < ColdKeyboard> I know there are some that work over Network, KVMs atc. But having sort of USB<->Ethernet<->Ethernet<->USB direct connection would be neat
2024-05-10T18:40:21 < ColdKeyboard> I guess the speed/delay would be an issue. You would need a micro that can "sniff" USB data, package it and send over ethernet, then on the other end process it and send back response.
2024-05-10T18:40:38 < ColdKeyboard> But I don't know, just guessing. Maybe it's not that difficuilt
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2024-05-10T19:48:03 < vampirefrog> fancy
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2024-05-10T21:22:28 < Steffanx> Where have you been mr vampirefrog ?
2024-05-10T21:23:27 < vampirefrog> oh I'm around, just working on a non-electronics project
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2024-05-10T21:47:13 < Steffanx> How much non-electronics vampirefrog ?
2024-05-10T21:47:29 < Steffanx> Music? Art? Masonry?
2024-05-10T21:49:46 < vampirefrog> I'm making a livestreaming tool
2024-05-10T21:50:13 < vampirefrog> I'm also looking for investors but they want numbers and I don't have numbers
2024-05-10T21:50:55 < mawk> software vampirefrog ?
2024-05-10T21:51:10 < mawk> or does it also include fancy hardware 
2024-05-10T21:51:14 < vampirefrog> just software
2024-05-10T21:51:16 < mawk> like those streaming consoles
2024-05-10T21:51:17 < mawk> ah
2024-05-10T21:51:33 < vampirefrog> nah I was never that good at electronics that I'd be able to deal with HDMI signals and whatnot
2024-05-10T21:51:40 < vampirefrog> mostly a software guy
2024-05-10T21:51:43 < mawk> how's your marketing strategy 
2024-05-10T21:51:53 < mawk> did you contact small streamers to give them the software for free
2024-05-10T21:52:00 < vampirefrog> I don't currently have one
2024-05-10T21:52:03 < Steffanx> Streaming software like OBS?
2024-05-10T21:52:26 < vampirefrog> yes it's a service similar to restream dot io, but has more widgets like a chat widget and a gift widget and whatnot
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2024-05-10T23:57:06 < mawk> in which language vampirefrog 
2024-05-10T23:58:36 < vampirefrog> node js
2024-05-10T23:59:08 < vampirefrog> I kinda want to rewrite it in c++ but that would take too long, I'm too close to launch now
--- Day changed la touko 11 2024
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2024-05-11T00:05:34 < zyp> ColdKeyboard, the obvious issue is that you'll need a way to configure the connection between them
2024-05-11T00:06:19 < zyp> beyond that, the main limitation is timing
2024-05-11T00:09:08 < zyp> all usb transfers are polled by the host, which means that once the host polls an endpoint, the device is required to reply pretty much immediately
2024-05-11T00:09:55 < zyp> e.g. when the host wants to receive data, it sends an IN token, and the device has to reply right away with either DATAx, NAK or STALL
2024-05-11T00:10:46 < vampirefrog> couldn't the network device just respond with STALL most of the time?
2024-05-11T00:11:03 < zyp> with timing requirements that you don't have time to wait for a network exchange to determine what reply the device has
2024-05-11T00:11:11 < zyp> not STALL, stall is the error response
2024-05-11T00:11:50 < vampirefrog> so then NAK?
2024-05-11T00:12:09 < vampirefrog> aren't you technically emulating a slow device?
2024-05-11T00:12:26 < zyp> but yeah, a bunch of the time you could probably get away by issuing a NAK while you forward the request to the remote device, and then have the DATAx reply ready next time the host polls the same endpoint
2024-05-11T00:12:52 < zyp> as long as we're talking bulk endpoints
2024-05-11T00:13:54 < zyp> the issue is that you're not fully transparent at that point
2024-05-11T00:14:54 < vampirefrog> for isochron, couldn't you just send empty packets? I recall audio IN working fine if you send smaller or empty packets
2024-05-11T00:15:08 < vampirefrog> maybe that's just the audio driver having a tolerance
2024-05-11T00:15:57 < zyp> the host can poll, your bridge NAKs to the host and forwards, the device responds to your bridge, and then the host can for whatever reason decide not to poll again (e.g. timeout)
2024-05-11T00:16:33 < zyp> device thinks it has successfully sent data to the host, host never received it
2024-05-11T00:17:44 < zyp> or potentially the other way around, let's consider a device with a request/response pair of bulk pipes
2024-05-11T00:18:46 < zyp> host sends a request, gets a NAK, times out and doesn't retry, device handles the request and queues a response
2024-05-11T00:19:09 < zyp> host sends another request, gets the queued response back instead of the correct one
2024-05-11T00:19:47 < vampirefrog> okay but what if you had an OS driver that handled the physical part parallel to the OS USB code
2024-05-11T00:20:16 < zyp> these cases are not necessarily very likely, but still possible, and which is why generic transparent bridging is unfeasible
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2024-05-11T00:20:52 < zyp> specific bridging (like mice and keyboards for KVM) is easier but less flexible
2024-05-11T00:21:22 < zyp> bridge just have to present as mouse and keyboard on one end, and talk to mouse and keyboard on other end
2024-05-11T00:21:29 < zyp> and yeah
2024-05-11T00:22:35 < zyp> AIUI USB/IP works in that manner: you have a special host controller driver that knows it's talking over the network and that network latencies exist, and then the device side bridge is responsible for handling timings
2024-05-11T00:22:58 < zyp> and that probably goes for that anywhereusb thing I linked as well
2024-05-11T00:24:05 < zyp> think of it as moving the physical host controller to the other end of your ethernet link, instead of having it hanging off pcie locally
2024-05-11T00:25:00 < zyp> I theorize that it could potentially be possible to transparently bridge USB HS to USB FS/LS by making a bridge that acts as a hub with a TT
2024-05-11T00:25:49 < zyp> because when a hub has a HS upstream and a FS/LS downstream, the host tells the TT to go issue a transfer to some device and then checks back later to get the result
2024-05-11T00:27:17 < zyp> I'm not super familiar with how the hub protocol extensions actually work (e.g. SPLIT tokens), and what latency requirements they come with, but maybe…
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2024-05-11T11:15:48 < Steffanx> nomorekaki: I'm sorry, you'll have to do without dutchland tonight 
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2024-05-11T11:16:14 < BrainDamage> who was lucky enough to see the aurorae yesterday? it was overcast here
2024-05-11T11:16:33 < BrainDamage> it went all across europe, due to a geomagnetic storm
2024-05-11T11:17:53 < Steffanx> Not me. 
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2024-05-11T11:45:43 < jpa-> BrainDamage: my mom was, but here in city lights no chance
2024-05-11T11:46:00 < jpa-> Steffanx: do all dutch people have such pointy shoulders?
2024-05-11T11:47:46 < Steffanx> Are you jealous jpa-?
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2024-05-11T11:50:43 < jpa-> a bit, though green biceps are cooler
2024-05-11T11:59:50 < Steffanx> Lol I'm not even sure what youre referring to jpa- -_-
2024-05-11T12:00:10 < Steffanx>  More like no clue
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2024-05-11T12:42:10 < qyx> BrainDamage: yes
2024-05-11T12:42:37 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/gNwkT/IMG_2024-05-10-22-27-46-031.jpg
2024-05-11T12:42:43 < qyx> using my tablet potatocam
2024-05-11T12:47:52 < qyx> jpa-: aren't you in the woods? it looked like that with lakes around
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2024-05-11T15:04:19 < Laurenceb_> New Atheist High Priest Richard Dawkins claimed the students protesting against 'Israel' are motivated by anti-Semitism. When challenged on this and asked whether it's possible the students are motivated by outrage at the 'Israeli' slaughter in Gaza, Dawkins becomes flustered and runs away.
2024-05-11T15:04:31 < Laurenceb_> orbital sides if true
2024-05-11T15:50:36 < qyx> Laurenceb_: do we have a space junk reentry map?
2024-05-11T15:51:18 < Laurenceb_> for what? Just general junk?
2024-05-11T15:51:46 < qyx> idk I saw something and I would like to see if anything was planned to enter the atmosphere at that time and location
2024-05-11T15:52:22 < Laurenceb_> hmm good point, I think norad publish trajectories, not sure if there is anything in a nice format tho
2024-05-11T16:17:44 < vampirefrog> norad more like no thanks
2024-05-11T16:35:33 < Laurenceb_> does anyone know what the smallest (not BGA) micro with CAN is?
2024-05-11T16:39:22 < Laurenceb_> pic16f17?
2024-05-11T17:00:23 < Laurenceb_> hmm no STM32F042 is the best
2024-05-11T17:31:45 < qyx> yes f042in qfn28
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2024-05-11T17:41:18 < qyx> how much would you expect an anti-theft gnss+nbiot device would be?
2024-05-11T17:41:22 < qyx> *effective
2024-05-11T17:41:37 < qyx> is anybody a thieve?
2024-05-11T17:42:35 < qyx> do you tend to carry your stolen assets in a faraday cage?
2024-05-11T17:42:57 < qyx> do you respect "do not put upside-down" marks?
2024-05-11T17:43:57 < qyx> is "does not contain copper" sign effective?
2024-05-11T17:53:40 < qyx> https://simply-unified.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/gps-tracker-anti-theft-car-system.jpg
2024-05-11T17:53:54 < qyx> they are using a 3.5mm jack for the antenna
2024-05-11T17:54:06 < qyx> whatdid I just see
2024-05-11T18:01:35 < BrainDamage> isn't that a mic?
2024-05-11T18:01:46 < BrainDamage> it even has a mic clothes clip
2024-05-11T18:12:30 < qyx> idk where's the antenna then
2024-05-11T18:13:15 < qyx> it is a car gps tracker
2024-05-11T18:15:13 < BrainDamage> builtin antenna?
2024-05-11T18:23:53 < qyx> anyway, I am considering using a similar thing in a device installed in field to find it if stolen
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2024-05-11T19:18:22 < BrainDamage> modern car thieves have chinese gps jammers fwiw
2024-05-11T20:01:19 < qyx> hm
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2024-05-11T23:01:11 < jpa-> qyx: well, 7 km from city center
2024-05-11T23:01:32 < jpa-> and there is a motorway 2 km away
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--- Day changed su touko 12 2024
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2024-05-12T01:16:34 < nomorekaki> yeah left friends place hour ago and now checked .CH is first
2024-05-12T01:16:49 < nomorekaki> wtf
2024-05-12T01:21:24 < nomorekaki> I'm annoyed but when I checked again the place in CH in somewhere in top is not unwarranted. singer is very talented
2024-05-12T01:28:21 < nomorekaki> https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/1cpisy6/jsmonkandfly/
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2024-05-12T02:14:14 < nomorekaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9H79_kKzmFs if you think steve jobs or microsoft figured out anything or that late 80s/early 90s was the advent of graphical user interface. This machine was first introduced in 1973 and had programs with windowing system. Also ethernet. Also mouse.
2024-05-12T02:15:49 < nomorekaki> steve jobs figured out to get people working on these xerox machines to defect to apple
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2024-05-12T15:25:13 < Laurenceb_> Alright, listen up you little whims. Were I ever to caught anyone disrespecting women, you will be in a world of hurt. This is totally not cool and in the year 2024 you should know better. It is morally sickening and you have no idea what kind of damage you could inflict upon them. So were one of you tough guys to do it, and I find out, you had
2024-05-12T15:25:14 < Laurenceb_> better pray the police find you before I do.
2024-05-12T15:28:34 < Laurenceb_> >Saudis are actually building Neom
2024-05-12T15:28:36 < Laurenceb_> lmao
2024-05-12T15:51:01 < jpa-> Laurenceb_: you should go after the person with IP 46.208.141.202
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2024-05-12T16:31:43 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/accidental_fuse.jpg   looks like i had a fuse in this circuit even though i didn't know it
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2024-05-12T16:56:47 < zyp> all circuits are fuses if you try hard enough
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2024-05-12T17:09:30 < Laurenceb_> lol hyperautist guy just told me that rechargable batteries charge because they fill up with holes
2024-05-12T17:19:11 < Laurenceb_> does anyone make automotive rated polyfuses?
2024-05-12T17:23:17 < BrainDamage> as in, solid state physics holes?
2024-05-12T17:26:20 < Laurenceb_> yes
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2024-05-12T17:27:33 < BrainDamage> does he actually know what's require for a hole to be able to form?
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2024-05-12T17:33:54 < qyx> a wish
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2024-05-12T17:58:32 < Laurenceb_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSFB1IVI2nA
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2024-05-12T20:02:58 < qyx> anyone ever did fpdlink anything?
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2024-05-12T22:06:40 < ColdKeyboard> This might sound dumb, but those multi fan controllers. Do they have decoupling capacitors on each fan connector or just one big bulk decapictor for the power rail?
2024-05-12T22:11:22 < nomorekaki> multifan?
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2024-05-12T22:33:33 < qyx> multi cap?
2024-05-12T22:59:02 < ColdKeyboard> Those fan controllers that people buy or sometimes you get them with the PC case
2024-05-12T22:59:35 < ColdKeyboard> Some of them have a large decoupling cap on the sata 12V and that's it. Then there are some that also have a tiny decoupling capacitor right next to the fan connector
2024-05-12T22:59:53 < ColdKeyboard> I can't find any app note or anything that would recommend which one is required and why
2024-05-12T23:00:59 < qyx> open any random pwm dc motor controller EMC appnote and you'll see
2024-05-12T23:28:41 < ColdKeyboard> I just see the bulk decoupling but nothing on the each individual fan
2024-05-12T23:30:44 < ColdKeyboard> Is this because these are relatively low-current motors (ie. 0.1A) and "have no load" in a sense that they are just pushing air, not spinning wheels or moving gantries
2024-05-12T23:31:38 < qyx> you are looking at that problem in a too specific way
2024-05-12T23:32:10 < ColdKeyboard> Ok, maybe to rephrase the question then...
2024-05-12T23:32:30 < ColdKeyboard> If I have 5x 12V 4-pin (PWM) fans
2024-05-12T23:32:41 < ColdKeyboard> I control the speed through PWM signal
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2024-05-12T23:33:15 < qyx> you may as well use no cap
2024-05-12T23:33:18 < ColdKeyboard> Do I also need an individual decoupling capacitor on each fan connector, or just having a big bulk decoupling capacitor on 12V would work
2024-05-12T23:33:58 < qyx> it all depends on how you are coping with the emi
2024-05-12T23:34:09 < qyx> do you need to at all?
2024-05-12T23:34:10 < ColdKeyboard> That is what I think. But I see some people putting 100nF next to each fan connector, and some not putting anything 
2024-05-12T23:34:19 < qyx> is there a driving circuit sensitive to it?
2024-05-12T23:34:29 < ColdKeyboard> It's not, and not too concerned about the EMI
2024-05-12T23:35:07 < qyx> also, those connectors are close to each other, then there is a non-zero length of cable
2024-05-12T23:35:10 < ColdKeyboard> Obviously if I need to add 100nF or something, those are dirt cheap. If I need to add 10uF/16V, then I would like to understand why I need those :)
2024-05-12T23:35:19 < qyx> those are more like bypass caps
2024-05-12T23:35:45 < qyx> to short any AC noise to ground
2024-05-12T23:36:03 < qyx> decoupling cap should be at the other end (the sink)
2024-05-12T23:36:23 < ColdKeyboard> So on the fan board itself?
2024-05-12T23:36:45 < ColdKeyboard> Do I need any on the fan connector and if yes/can't-hurt, what value would make sense?
2024-05-12T23:36:48 < qyx> yes, that's the place where switching occurs
2024-05-12T23:37:07 < qyx> with 3/4 pin fans
2024-05-12T23:37:37 < qyx> I wouln't bother with anything specific on each connector
2024-05-12T23:37:42 < qyx> reserve a footprint
2024-05-12T23:38:04 < qyx> connect the fan, spin it, look at the 12V input with a scope
2024-05-12T23:38:20 < qyx> decide on the amount of noise you want to accept
2024-05-12T23:38:31 < qyx> and optionally solder something there
2024-05-12T23:39:21 < qyx> if you don't know what exact enemy you are fighting it is hard to make anything specific
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2024-05-13T03:08:54 < lf94> Hey guys! So, I'm trying to drive a SSD1306 display. It's a tiny little thing off AliExpress. I'm using an STM32F103. I've wired up the display to B6 + B7 for I2C communication. My first question is, when powering it from 3V3, should I be seeing some backlight or something?
2024-05-13T03:32:41 < lf94> My more technical question is: I'm setting I2C_CR1 as b0000000100000001 to begin "start bit generation" and "enable peripheral"
2024-05-13T03:33:02 < lf94> And then I'm setting I2C_OAR1 to the slave address of the display
2024-05-13T03:33:14 < lf94> with the 1st bit set to 1 for "read"
2024-05-13T03:33:24 < lf94> then, I'm writing random stuff to I2C_DR
2024-05-13T03:33:30 < lf94> But whatever I do, seems to have no effect
2024-05-13T04:12:02 < specing> SSD1306 sounds familiar, It might be still resting in my ali "inbox"
2024-05-13T05:02:34 < lf94> more specifically to the stm32: do I need to do anything else to start using the I2C interface?
2024-05-13T05:04:12 < specing> lf94: don't forget to clock the i2c peripheral
2024-05-13T05:04:34 < specing> somewhere in datasheet you have clock tree, make sure all the switches to the peripheral are on
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2024-05-13T08:31:12 < jpa-> is my weirdo buck-boost ridiculous or brilliant? https://tinyurl.com/26ktxufk
2024-05-13T08:31:45 < jpa-> reusing 3-phase BLDC half bridges for some power in/out capability
2024-05-13T08:32:12 < jpa-> but i need output to go slightly above input in order to be able to transfer charge to another battery
2024-05-13T08:32:52 < jpa-> (PWM1 diode is not a real diode, it would be synchronous rectification by the halfbridge)
2024-05-13T08:45:00 < qyx> lf94: F1 I2C is bugful, you should use an existing lib/code
2024-05-13T08:45:23 < qyx> there were some quirks but idk, I used F1 in 2013 for the last time
2024-05-13T08:46:39 < qyx> jpa-: it is resembling the topology they use to generate a second isolated voltage on a standard buck
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2024-05-13T09:02:01 < jpa-> i think i may hit some problems with voltage induced on PWM2 when in buck mode
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2024-05-13T09:08:32 < jpa-> i guess 1:1 transformer would be best
2024-05-13T09:08:58 < qyx> a transformer? not a coupled inductor?
2024-05-13T09:11:46 < jpa-> i don't know the difference :)
2024-05-13T09:12:11 < jpa-> ah, yeah, high saturation current so i guess "coupled inductor"
2024-05-13T09:12:46 < jpa-> and not very good coupling, it is a cylindrical core so there is air gap in the flux
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2024-05-13T09:55:08 < jpa-> meh no, PWM1 body diode will conduct backwards
2024-05-13T10:08:44 < jpa-> i guess i need that real diode there instead of sync rectifier; unfortunately that will also stop reverse operation (though that is not so important)
2024-05-13T10:14:58 < jpa-> though i would really like to have sync rectification
2024-05-13T10:15:20 < jpa-> it makes also controlling easier when things are always continuous conduction mode
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2024-05-13T12:09:14 < qyx> how do I mark a bugreport in whatsapp as resolved
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2024-05-13T12:35:35 < karlp> cool caps: https://www.eenewseurope.com/en/silicon-capacitor-has-1ph-esl-for-ai-chips/
2024-05-13T12:36:59 < jpa-> too bad it is only for AI chips
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2024-05-13T17:12:17 < qyx> Unrouted: 23
2024-05-13T17:12:20 < qyx> still work to do
2024-05-13T17:24:32 < lf94> specing: ah, I thought the default clock was enough
2024-05-13T17:25:33 < lf94> < qyx> lf94: F1 I2C is bugful, you should use an existing lib/code
2024-05-13T17:25:37 < lf94> ooof.
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2024-05-13T18:16:49 < qyx> Unrouted: 7, enough for today
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2024-05-13T19:15:35 < Steffanx> Come ooon qyx
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2024-05-13T22:04:44 < Laurenceb_> keeeekkk
2024-05-13T22:04:59 < Laurenceb_> >halp, we turned on the 11kV supply and the local area browned out
2024-05-13T22:15:36 < specing> lolll
2024-05-13T22:16:02 < specing> but have you reached 88mph?
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2024-05-13T23:45:36 < qyx> what will I do with those 7 unrouted nets
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2024-05-13T23:55:46 < sauce> route them obviously
2024-05-13T23:59:43 < qyx> done, 0 left
--- Day changed ti touko 14 2024
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2024-05-14T00:00:04 < qyx> I'll prettify it tomorrow
2024-05-14T00:00:49 < qyx> so, those fluxgates, where do I get super-high-permeability iron cores?
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2024-05-14T01:09:11 < nomorekaki> lurence
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2024-05-14T12:47:23 < karlp> man, work proj has -wall, -Wextra, -Werror.... then just goes and adds a whole pile of -Wno-.... for a good half of the warnings they just turned on.
2024-05-14T12:47:35 < karlp> good fucking job, hope they all feel good.
2024-05-14T12:48:04 < karlp> they've even turned off impliciti fallthrough warnings, because.... they can't spell.
2024-05-14T12:48:12 < karlp> four instances of // fallthough
2024-05-14T12:51:46 < zyp> hah
2024-05-14T13:07:05 < PaulFertser> :D
2024-05-14T13:09:10 < jpa-> could have done just -Wimplicit-fallthrough=1
2024-05-14T13:17:52 < vampirefrog> -Wno-fart-noises
2024-05-14T13:17:59 < vampirefrog> -Wsilent-farts
2024-05-14T13:18:25 < vampirefrog> -Wfatal-farts
2024-05-14T13:45:18 < qyx> -Wno
2024-05-14T13:46:04 < qyx> anyway, does even -Wall -Wextra include all warnings?
2024-05-14T13:46:56 < qyx> because together wih them I always copy a bunch of other options
2024-05-14T13:47:20 < qyx> don't ask why, historical reasons, I always did that without checking if they are even needed
2024-05-14T13:48:33 < BrainDamage> my favourite option is unroll loops, because when you specify it it makes rolls fun
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2024-05-14T14:23:20 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/dcdc_spikes.png   i wonder why i get this funny negative spike when Q1A turns off
2024-05-14T14:23:31 < jpa-> solution is probably a simple diode clamp, i just wonder where it comes from
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2024-05-14T14:28:09 < jpa-> ah well, obvious right after i asked
2024-05-14T14:28:26 < jpa-> because the sync gate is so slow to turn off, current through transformer has time to reverse and that
2024-05-14T14:28:35 < jpa-> 's why the negative spike when the current gets interrupted
2024-05-14T14:31:22 < jpa-> so time for a clamp and to make R11 smaller
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2024-05-14T15:52:14 < bitmask> you people still alive?
2024-05-14T15:54:26 < specing> no, we've been laurence'd
2024-05-14T15:58:31 < Steffanx> Yet I die a little more each time he posts some shit in here.
2024-05-14T15:58:52 < Steffanx> What about your bitmask ?
2024-05-14T15:59:25 -!- specing [~specing@user/specing] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2024-05-14T15:59:51 < bitmask> sometimes dead, sometimes alive, who knows
2024-05-14T16:00:03 < bitmask> nah, im actually doing pretty pretty prettty good
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2024-05-14T17:48:07 < Steffanx> Good good bitmask 
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2024-05-14T18:37:16 < Laurenceb_> calling bash gurus
2024-05-14T18:37:18 < Laurenceb_> temp=$('gdb --batch -ex "print/f (float *) 0x${this_sensor}"')
2024-05-14T18:37:32 < Laurenceb_> any ideas how to make this run?
2024-05-14T18:38:56 < BrainDamage> my recomendation is: split to multiple lines and never have to worry about quoting
2024-05-14T18:39:24 < BrainDamage> also, don't quote $()
2024-05-14T18:39:46 < BrainDamage> because otherwise it thinks it's a command called gdb --batch, instead of batch argument to gdb
2024-05-14T18:39:56 < BrainDamage> temp=$(gdb --batch -ex "print/f (float *) 0x${this_sensor}")
2024-05-14T18:40:04 < Laurenceb_> ok
2024-05-14T18:40:51 < Laurenceb_> aha that fixed it, thanks
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2024-05-14T21:20:46 < PaulFertser> Also ${..} isn't expanded inside of '
2024-05-14T21:21:01 < PaulFertser> And that's POSIX shell, not bash specific.
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2024-05-14T23:52:15 < bitmask> this dog is a terrible dog. she doesn't listen, she doesn't like to do normal dog things like play fetch and run around (well sometimes), and she just shit and it got stuck in her ass fur
2024-05-14T23:52:35 < bitmask> what a mess
2024-05-14T23:53:38 < specing> lol
--- Day changed ke touko 15 2024
2024-05-15T00:02:54 < bitmask> she is very cute though: https://i.imgur.com/dXqFQEO.jpg
2024-05-15T00:03:21 < bitmask> quite sexy too: https://i.imgur.com/HG2xind.jpg
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2024-05-15T00:29:22 < Steffanx> What's this thing around her chest bitmask? You want a dog, treat it like one and dont give it "clothes" ;)
2024-05-15T00:30:10 < bitmask> its a harness to connect a leash, its much better than using a regular collar because it won't choke her, spreads the load when she pulls on it
2024-05-15T00:30:19 < Steffanx> I know 😜
2024-05-15T00:30:30 < bitmask> oh.. well its not like she wears it all the time :P
2024-05-15T00:30:48 < bitmask> and its not even my dog, its my gf's brothers
2024-05-15T00:31:41 < bitmask> unfortunately he did put sweaters and football jerseys on her in the winter, i felt bad for her
2024-05-15T00:34:03 < bitmask> ugh, i didnt do any work today
2024-05-15T00:35:09 < bitmask> now I remember why I stopped coming on IRC. I just sit here and stream my thoughts
2024-05-15T00:35:53 < specing> discount laurencer
2024-05-15T00:35:58 < bitmask> ouch
2024-05-15T00:36:07 < bitmask> that was harsh
2024-05-15T00:40:02 < Steffanx> What work are you up to nowadays bitmask ?
2024-05-15T00:40:17 < Steffanx> Still the same as a few months ago?
2024-05-15T00:46:32 < bitmask> yea, just a lot more reliably so I'm actually making decent money
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2024-05-15T00:53:52 < bitmask> speaking of, I think its time to get a new laptop
2024-05-15T00:54:22 < bitmask> this is prob the wrong room to ask in, but any thoughts on apple's m3?
2024-05-15T00:54:47 < zyp> wouldn't expect it to be any worse than the m2
2024-05-15T00:54:58 < zyp> and I'm really happy with mine so far
2024-05-15T00:55:11 < bitmask> well I guess more so the experience of switching to non x86
2024-05-15T00:55:49 < bitmask> i havent really looked into it at all, can you just run windows vms and stuff?
2024-05-15T00:56:23 < zyp> well, I've had this for half a year and I haven't really noticed any inconveniences yet apart from the inability to run windows vms, that I already knew about ahead of time
2024-05-15T00:56:29 < bitmask> my current mbp is a mid 2015
2024-05-15T00:56:40 < zyp> I solved that by setting up a windows server I could remote into instead
2024-05-15T00:56:49 < bitmask> ahh i see
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2024-05-15T00:58:12 < bitmask> wait what do you mean, it says vmware and parallels works fine on apple silicon
2024-05-15T00:58:58 < zyp> yeah, last I checked they'd only run ARM windows builds
2024-05-15T00:59:25 < bitmask> ohhh
2024-05-15T01:00:04 < zyp> maybe windows has good enough x86 emulation that you can still run regular windows software on ARM windows in a VM on a mac, idk
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2024-05-15T01:00:24 < bitmask> well i dont think thats a deal breaker, good to know beforehand though
2024-05-15T01:00:37 < bitmask> I would like to wait for m4 but thats too far away
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2024-05-15T01:01:13 < bitmask> and the possibility of oled and some better ai performance isn't really worth it
2024-05-15T01:01:32 < zyp> mine is a mac studio, not a macbook, so relying on external resources isn't a major limitation
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2024-05-15T01:02:53 < bitmask> I can always just keep my current mbp and have it normally boot into windows as the main OS
2024-05-15T01:02:57 < bitmask> if needed
2024-05-15T01:03:00 < zyp> if AI performance is what you want, shouldn't you rather put money in a GPU or a specialized AI accelerator?
2024-05-15T01:03:33 < vampirefrog> can't believe people are unironically using the term "AI"
2024-05-15T01:04:25 < qyx> NN and AI were known words back in 2006-7 when I was at uni
2024-05-15T01:04:34 < bitmask> zyp thats what i meant, the m4 is supposed to have a lot more AI accelerator cores than m3. but its not really that I care at the moment, but if a couple years down the road local AI becomes important it would be nice to have. I guess I can always upgrade then
2024-05-15T01:06:44 < bitmask> $3,500 for a laptop, damn
2024-05-15T01:13:09 < bitmask> oh, I can upgrade from 1TB SSD to 8TB for only $2,200 extra
2024-05-15T01:16:05 < zyp> I went with the default 500G
2024-05-15T01:17:01 < zyp> already got tens of terabytes of storage in the server rack downstairs, so again remote resources are fine
2024-05-15T01:17:14 < zyp> on the other hand, I spent money on upgrading to 64G RAM
2024-05-15T01:20:37 < bitmask> damn
2024-05-15T01:20:54 < bitmask> I was just gonna go with the default 36 shared
2024-05-15T01:21:46 < bitmask> to go with 64 id need to get the more expensive m3 max (300 more), then its 400 to go to 64gb
2024-05-15T01:21:59 < bitmask> oh no, its 200
2024-05-15T01:22:06 < bitmask> so 500 total
2024-05-15T01:23:09 < bitmask> nope, I was right the first time
2024-05-15T01:23:12 < bitmask> 700 total
2024-05-15T01:23:20 < bitmask> $4,200
2024-05-15T01:23:51 < bitmask> what can the pro go up to...
2024-05-15T01:24:19 < bitmask> just 36
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2024-05-15T01:24:57 < Laurenceb_> https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a675cecb8cc24ae96fc2a4be749b088425e103734d469891924140bd19a731ec.jpg?w=800&h=437
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2024-05-15T02:12:48 < zyp> yeah, mine is m2 max
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2024-05-15T02:20:49 < vampirefrog> "NN" as a term might work but "AI" is horribly imprecise
2024-05-15T02:20:53 < vampirefrog> it's more like false intelligence
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2024-05-15T10:37:05 < Laurenceb_> https://files.catbox.moe/ympkb5.mp4
2024-05-15T10:54:46 < jpa-> untitled mp4 pasted by Laurenceb; i'm definitely gonna open that
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2024-05-15T11:00:01 < qyx> did you
2024-05-15T11:00:25 < BrainDamage> unfortunately there's no technology to protect you from mental trauma
2024-05-15T11:07:14 < ventYl> :>
2024-05-15T11:07:36 < ventYl> where technology fails, chemistry may help
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2024-05-15T13:10:24 < karlp> is there anything really wrong with my "non-alias" method here? https://godbolt.org/z/EPvG6PcEq
2024-05-15T13:10:45 < karlp> it's hardcoded to LE though right, but, using the union seems wayyyy grosser.
2024-05-15T13:15:23 < karlp> using memcpy works too, as long as gcc is newenough:  https://godbolt.org/z/svKb1rG9e
2024-05-15T13:15:35 < karlp> (old arm gcc 5 will make shitty byte by byte code.
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2024-05-15T13:23:39 < jpa-> karlp: get_non_alias is the most correct way when you actually want little-endian instead of platform-endian
2024-05-15T13:25:17 < jpa-> memcpy or union hack is fine for platform-endian
2024-05-15T13:30:07 < karlp> just went and dug up the source for the other end, and it's doing 4 byte writes from lua:  f:write(string.char(x % 256, math.floor(x/256), y % 256, math.floor(y/256)))
2024-05-15T13:30:26 < karlp> so that's... explicitly LE, given the order of the & and floor_div I guess.
2024-05-15T13:43:45 < jpa-> i wonder why math.floor instead of //
2024-05-15T13:47:30 < karlp> when did lua get // ? it's not pythong.
2024-05-15T13:48:02 < karlp> 5.3
2024-05-15T13:48:16 < karlp> this was probably orginally lua 4 code anyway, from what I can infer
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2024-05-15T15:38:58 < qyx> aisler has became somewhat expensive
2024-05-15T15:42:07 < karlp> implying it was cheap before....
2024-05-15T15:46:26 < qyx> it was cheaper
2024-05-15T15:50:13 < qyx> aisler is 45e, jlc is 21 for the same options incl. enig
2024-05-15T15:50:21 < qyx> with hasl it is 10e..
2024-05-15T15:51:25 < karlp> aisler still won't do a cart, so fuck em.
2024-05-15T15:51:26 < jpa-> yeah, i have been waiting for aisler to become cheaper and better as they get more customers.. seems like it is just becoming more expensive
2024-05-15T15:51:46 < karlp> I'm not trusting their "we promise we'll send your orders in one shipment!" lies again.
2024-05-15T15:52:06 < karlp> and jlc now added aislers (excellent) stencil labels from filenames.
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2024-05-15T16:06:12 < qyx> if I had no other option, I would use them, but as long as anything faster and cheaper is available for protos, fuk
2024-05-15T16:06:35 < qyx> oh and I forgot, jlc's price is for 5 boards, aisler's for 3
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2024-05-15T18:48:52  * Laurenceb_ is going rage mode
2024-05-15T18:49:12 < Laurenceb_> strain gauges are peeling off  muh parts at high temperature
2024-05-15T18:49:22 < Laurenceb_> wtf are you supposed to stick these on with
2024-05-15T18:49:49  * Laurenceb_ got nice high temperature high modulus acrylic adhesive, but its peeling off the kapton film
2024-05-15T18:56:03 < karlp> you speak to your load cell vendor.... oh, right, you're trying to solve that as well, yourself....
2024-05-15T18:57:48 < Laurenceb_> lol
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2024-05-15T18:58:59 < karlp> too much knowledge...
2024-05-15T19:01:57 < qyx> lolno
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2024-05-16T12:31:16 < karlp> I'm glad they fixed it, but I'm curious what this user was actually doing with 180KB ring buffers for uart... https://github.com/espressif/esp-idf/issues/12386
2024-05-16T13:00:33 < zyp> receiving and streaming a firehose of data from UART to TCP or something, probably
2024-05-16T13:01:17 < zyp> the more buffering you've got, the more tolerant you become to bursts and latency
2024-05-16T13:03:38 < karlp> still reallllly deep
2024-05-16T13:03:43 < karlp> but yeah, 
2024-05-16T13:04:53 < karlp> it's also that the esp ring buffers there are already second level, so what might be considered app level onstm32 or similar...
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2024-05-16T14:42:55 < qyx> karlp: I did the same for datalogging to uSD
2024-05-16T14:43:08 < qyx> to conserve power
2024-05-16T14:43:48 < qyx> for my accelerometer sh.t I even use a 4 MB SPI NOR buffer/fifo
2024-05-16T14:51:04 < karlp> it was on the _uart_ that I was curious.
2024-05-16T15:05:20 < jpa-> i have a framebuffer, does that count?
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2024-05-16T15:21:29 < Steffanx> Everything you do counts jpa- 
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2024-05-17T00:52:07 < qyx> no innovation was commited today
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2024-05-17T02:15:17  * Laurenceb_ has a weird issue: usb audio device seems to be skipping <1 sample of audio
2024-05-17T02:15:40 < Laurenceb_> maybe internal clock / pll glitches?
2024-05-17T02:15:47 < Laurenceb_> happens a few times an hour
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2024-05-17T02:19:05 < Laurenceb_> oh sheeeet I think I know what the issue might be - bug in the synchronous reclocking on the device
2024-05-17T02:19:29 < Laurenceb_> that would be how it manages to be sub one sample, and only occurs rarely
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2024-05-17T02:42:34 < karlp> so, I can get a mid level qnap in stock in porto nextweek,
2024-05-17T02:43:13 < karlp> do I really want to fuss around with ordering a synology to the right part of portugal, or is qnap and synology sufficiently similar?
2024-05-17T02:43:23 < karlp> also, fuck newegg "global"
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2024-05-17T12:48:10 < qyx> why do you need a nas in portugal, right now
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2024-05-17T13:28:14 < karlp> I don't, but if I'm getting one, picking it up in portugal is significantly cheaper than getting it in, or delivered to iceland.
2024-05-17T13:28:23 < karlp> and I'll be in portugal next week.
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2024-05-17T18:27:55 < jpa-> DigiKey has suspended all dealings with Mornsun, and immediately blocked all shipments of Mornsun product to customers while continuing to assess the situation.
2024-05-17T18:29:15 < zyp> heh
2024-05-17T18:29:18 < zyp> they're unsafe or what?
2024-05-17T18:29:36 < jpa-> they're selling to russia military
2024-05-17T18:29:40 < zyp> ah
2024-05-17T18:29:49 < jpa-> so we shouldn't buy their parts or russia might not get enough
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2024-05-17T19:08:25 < qyx> so, can the common MFA mobile app thing work without an exact time?
2024-05-17T19:09:17 < qyx> apparently called challenge-response
2024-05-17T19:10:04 < zyp> TOTP?
2024-05-17T19:10:44 < qyx> no, TOTP is time based
2024-05-17T19:10:58 < qyx> oh aegis supports HOTP too
2024-05-17T19:29:20 < BrainDamage> TOTP has a tolerance of 30s
2024-05-17T19:30:02 < BrainDamage> sorry, quantization, not tolerance
2024-05-17T19:30:03 < BrainDamage> and some implementations also generate 1 token ahead and 1 behind and will also accept that
2024-05-17T19:30:12 < BrainDamage> extending the tolerance to 1.5 min
2024-05-17T19:30:46 < BrainDamage> https://preview.redd.it/wei0kf61wy0d1.jpeg?auto=webp&s=2723f4fe64978911aab59e0a36404efafa6a7704
2024-05-17T19:56:40 < Steffanx> Lol. That's evil
2024-05-17T19:59:42 < qyx> yes but I have not real time on the device
2024-05-17T20:00:17 < qyx> *no
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2024-05-17T20:23:45 < jpa-> if you can type into the device, you can always have the user input the time :)
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--- Day changed la touko 18 2024
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2024-05-18T00:52:17 < karlp> TIL I leared about ldlc.com. newegg global for europe... or close enough
2024-05-18T00:55:12 < Steffanx> Is it even legit?
2024-05-18T01:06:56 < karlp> seems to be, reivews are good, and it was referred by cnx-software who I regard as trustworthy for europeans
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2024-05-18T06:52:10 < UNREAALea_`> I R C . S U P E R N E T S . O R G
2024-05-18T06:52:10 < UNREAALea_`> UNREAALea_` Steffanx_ nohit_ mawk` dreamcat4_ Kamilion|ZNC blathijs Posterdati boB_K7IQ Shaun_ fenugrec_ phryk_ c10ud_ nomorekaki NEYi bitmask martinmoene russell-- hsv HelloShitty alan_o vampirefrog dreamcat4 haritz mawk drkow qyx Sadale akaWolf specing Spirit532 hackkitten BrainDamage PaulFertser scrts0 sauce m5zs7k lf94 dima catphish veverak dobson ventYl ilgrim benishor dkc jmcgnh stgl 
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2024-05-18T06:57:19 < lf94> hm, weird
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2024-05-18T13:25:29 < Steffanx> lol thats old new.
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2024-05-18T16:43:36 < Laurenceb_> muh strain gauge isnt working quite right...
2024-05-18T16:44:08 < Laurenceb_> this was always going to be a tall order - strain gauge inside a motor and run through ~15m of cable and multiple connectors
2024-05-18T16:44:39 < Laurenceb_> I'm AC exciting it using a usb audio adaptor plugged into a Rpi and some audio isolation transformers inbetween
2024-05-18T16:45:21 < Laurenceb_> cable is dual shielded twisted pairs, but I had to add 360pF capacitance between input and output to cancel out a weird offset... cant work out where it came from
2024-05-18T16:47:18 < Laurenceb_> atm my best guess is ground bounce on the usb adaptor - which can be solved by connecting it to chassis GND via braid, but Im wondering if it could be anything else...
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2024-05-18T16:51:21 < Laurenceb_> consumer grade audio gear is single ended, so gnd bounce looks like a signal
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2024-05-18T17:25:38 < qyx> the hell is he doing?
2024-05-18T17:26:08 < BrainDamage> that's what we've been wondering since a decade
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2024-05-18T17:34:18 < BrainDamage> also, since he has custom everything, he might as well just slap the amp board next to the gauge
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2024-05-18T18:00:30 < Laurenceb_> supp
2024-05-18T18:00:35 < Laurenceb_> >amp board
2024-05-18T18:01:20 < BrainDamage> the output amp
2024-05-18T18:01:23 < Laurenceb_> first thing I'm going to try is copper braid from usb device GND plane to the chassis gnd (its all in an alu enclosure)
2024-05-18T18:02:01 < Laurenceb_> yeah I'm just using headphone out from the usb adaptor atm - it managed 2.5V RMS across the 120ohm bridge with an output transformer
2024-05-18T18:02:28 < Laurenceb_> I think it must be drawing enough current to cause GND bounce on the usb adaptor tho
2024-05-18T18:03:04 < Laurenceb_> my only other thought it that there is unexpectedly higher CM to DM conversion in the mic input isolation transformer, but dont know how that could happen
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2024-05-18T18:04:08 < BrainDamage> disconnect the bridge, replace it with a resistor the closest possible to the motor you can, see if the signal across it changes
2024-05-18T18:04:13 < Laurenceb_> I'm measuring 2.5V RMS out, with a 20mV common mode component, then 20mV common mode on the inputs, and 0.0mV RMS differential according to my multimeter (which I dont trust with such small signals)
2024-05-18T18:04:23 < Laurenceb_> yeah thats a good idea, will try on Monday
2024-05-18T18:05:11 < Laurenceb_> the demodulated signal is equivalent to 0.5mV RMS differential mode
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2024-05-18T18:06:37 < Laurenceb_> I tried swapping the polarity of the microphone input leads just prior to the input transformer that converts differential to single ended (and isolates it), and that swapped the sign of the offset
2024-05-18T18:06:50 < Laurenceb_> I think that rules out anything outside the box as the source of the issue
2024-05-18T18:07:18 < BrainDamage> is the connector wired to the box chassis?
2024-05-18T18:07:40 < BrainDamage> because that's usually the #1 reason for ground loops
2024-05-18T18:07:43 < Laurenceb_> yeah - its using XLR connectors with the two shields connected to case
2024-05-18T18:08:18 < Laurenceb_> RS 673-3220   cable
2024-05-18T18:09:02 < zyp> ah, dildo connectors
2024-05-18T18:12:00 < Laurenceb_> 0.5mV from 20mV common mode is only 32dB CM rejection, seems too low for a microphone input transformer, suggesting issue is USB adaptor side to me...
2024-05-18T18:14:21 < Laurenceb_> https://docs.rs-online.com/b006/0900766b810fb25c.pdf I'm using one of these but the primaries are in parellel, I guess that might make it unbalanced wrt common mode
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2024-05-18T18:40:21 < \dev\ice> how much MCU die tempeature call1/call2 varies between same model different MCU?
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2024-05-18T19:57:06 < qyx> datasheets say much, people say not so much, I can't decide myself
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2024-05-18T21:43:31 < ColdKeyboard> Did I mess something up... I get that for standard four layer 1.6mm PCB, top layer signal, 2nd layer gnd. Trace width should be 0.2mm for 45ohm single ended and then 2mm gap for 90ohm differential...
2024-05-18T21:47:08 < qyx> 2 mm gap between them?
2024-05-18T21:47:43 < ColdKeyboard> Yeah... that sounds bad
2024-05-18T21:48:04 < ColdKeyboard> For some reason I'm trying to get 45ohm for single ended for USB
2024-05-18T21:48:09 < ColdKeyboard> and then 90 for diff
2024-05-18T21:48:34 < ColdKeyboard> Or maybe my stackup is messed up
2024-05-18T21:50:33 < qyx> no, 0.2 mm track width, 0.15 mm spacing
2024-05-18T21:50:48 < qyx> er is 4.3, height is usually 0.15 mm for 4 layer
2024-05-18T21:50:54 < qyx> thickness 35 um
2024-05-18T21:51:18 < qyx> diff impedance is 90.6
2024-05-18T21:52:38 < qyx> https://www.digikey.sk/en/resources/conversion-calculators/conversion-calculator-pcb-trace-impedance agrees
2024-05-18T21:55:05 < ColdKeyboard> Makes sense. I think I messed up my stackup so the calculator is off
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--- Day changed su touko 19 2024
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2024-05-19T00:48:19 < Laurenceb_> til Metapedia and Rational Wiki were run by the same guy
2024-05-19T00:48:23 < Laurenceb_> orbital sides
2024-05-19T00:48:43 < Laurenceb_> trolls trollin the same troll
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2024-05-20T07:00:18 < ColdKeyboard> qyx This is the stackup I got from PCBWAY
2024-05-20T07:00:43 < ColdKeyboard> And Altium says 0.3mm width and 0.3mm spacing is the 50ohm single ended and 90ohm diff impedance...
2024-05-20T07:00:49 < ColdKeyboard> Does this make sense?
2024-05-20T07:01:06 < ColdKeyboard> Aside from 1.6mm thick board is ~1.54mm
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2024-05-20T08:15:50 < jpa-> ColdKeyboard: so what actually is the stackup (first and second layer distance) that you got?
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2024-05-20T09:25:20 < qyx> influxdb v3 is not available anymore?
2024-05-20T09:29:44 < BrainDamage> I didn't know broadcom was trying to compete with st for the shitty websites: https://matduggan.com/the-worst-website-in-the-entire-world/
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2024-05-20T10:13:34 < qyx> so I have influx v1.x (historical reasons), I am trying to batch insert some data, so with knowing the 'line protocol' I am just trying to pipe data to 'influx' command
2024-05-20T10:13:45 < qyx> nope ERR: 431 Request Header Fields Too Large
2024-05-20T10:13:51 < qyx> so trying to use -import file.txt
2024-05-20T10:14:12 < qyx> no, I have to use -import -path file.txt, but that's ok, just being blind reading --help
2024-05-20T10:14:44 < qyx> oh but they do not accept the line protocol with -import, you have to use InfluxQL data
2024-05-20T10:15:23 < qyx> and beware, comments inside matter!
2024-05-20T10:15:49 < qyx> so I tried to check the exact syntax of 'insert'
2024-05-20T10:16:02 < qyx> there is no such thing in the v1 documentation
2024-05-20T10:16:43 < qyx> after 10 minute browsing I found it, it is only documented for v2 (v1 apparently never needs to insert data) and in the section named 'query data'
2024-05-20T10:17:14 < qyx> maybe I should just stop using database infants
2024-05-20T10:17:42 < qyx> and find something more mature to save my precious stm32 data
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2024-05-20T12:39:19 < machinehum> If I have a SoC designed for two ranks, and a DDR3 with just one rank should I connect to two CKE0/CKE1 on the controller side?
2024-05-20T12:39:49 < machinehum> https://imgur.com/a/bX702cF
2024-05-20T12:40:13 < machinehum> CKE/ODT/CS
2024-05-20T12:41:14 < machinehum> https://imgur.com/a/bFAeN50 like that
2024-05-20T12:41:18 < jpa-> i would assume no, but hopefully the chip docs have more info
2024-05-20T12:41:23 < machinehum> And make the names make sense
2024-05-20T12:41:43 < machinehum> jpa-: We are working will Allwinnder Chinese bullshit
2024-05-20T12:42:09 < machinehum> I'll check the "data"sheet
2024-05-20T12:42:18 < jpa-> isn't CKE output from the SoC? so you would be shorting two push-pull outputs together?
2024-05-20T12:43:10 < machinehum> Yes lol
2024-05-20T12:45:09 < machinehum> Nothing a DIP package 4071 can't handle
2024-05-20T12:54:08 < specing> allwinner huh
2024-05-20T12:55:23 < machinehum> yes
2024-05-20T13:08:38 < machinehum> https://github.com/u-boot/u-boot/blob/master/drivers/ram/sunxi/dram_sun20i_d1.c#L5
2024-05-20T13:09:10 < machinehum> lol
2024-05-20T13:15:35 < PaulFertser> Rockchip doesn't share proper docs for the DRAM controller either.
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2024-05-20T13:33:37 < machinehum> PaulFertser: It's because they cant
2024-05-20T13:34:07 < machinehum> They just ripped off the IP from designware or whoever the fuck if they release the docs that would be proof they stole it
2024-05-20T13:34:11 < PaulFertser> machinehum: why so? Illegal use of an "ip core" from synopsis or something?
2024-05-20T13:34:20 < machinehum> Yeah
2024-05-20T13:34:26 < machinehum> Exactly
2024-05-20T13:34:45 < machinehum> There's a reason those chips cost nothing
2024-05-20T13:35:12 < PaulFertser> I'd say unlikely. The use USB and PCIe from them without hiding.
2024-05-20T13:36:15 < machinehum> And they release docs on that?
2024-05-20T13:36:57 < machinehum> I'm just leaving CKE1/ODT1/CS1 nc
2024-05-20T13:36:59 < machinehum> fuck it
2024-05-20T13:38:51 < PaulFertser> bindings/pci/rockchip-dw-pcie.yaml 
2024-05-20T13:39:52 < PaulFertser> https://lore.kernel.org/r/20210818093406.157788-1-xxm@rock-chips.com
2024-05-20T13:43:27 < machinehum> tbh I know very little about rockchip
2024-05-20T13:43:52 < machinehum> I was speaking more towards the Allwinner stuff
2024-05-20T13:44:33 < machinehum> So rockchip employees actually contribute things to the kernel?
2024-05-20T13:45:57 < PaulFertser> Kinda
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2024-05-20T22:19:25 < ColdKeyboard> jpa- Sorry, I see that I didn't include the link to the stackup
2024-05-20T22:19:26 < ColdKeyboard> https://pasteboard.co/CcRQvy7wQHJp.png
2024-05-20T22:28:36 < catphish> machinehum: i'd argue that allwinner is the best of a terrible bunch when it comes to actually releasing documenation, i chose their chips when i wanted to create a bare metal applicaiton, because they seemed to have useful reference manuals
2024-05-20T22:29:46 < PaulFertser> Also Allwinner are known criminals https://linux-sunxi.org/GPL_Violations
2024-05-20T22:45:58 < Steffanx> lol @ the comments about the memberships
2024-05-20T23:57:47 < qyx> they will meet mr. Reiser
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2024-05-21T00:39:27 < karlp> "known criminals" is dramatic though.
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2024-05-21T00:41:23 < PaulFertser> I admit I do not know if breaching Copyright law is a criminal offence in major jurisdictions, likely no.
2024-05-21T00:44:09 < PaulFertser> Just couldn't find a way to concisely express my contempt of the GPL violators.
2024-05-21T00:44:20 < sauce> intellectual property law exists to uphold capital interests
2024-05-21T00:44:41 < PaulFertser> Intellectual property is not a word
2024-05-21T00:45:01 < sauce> the gpl is a cute subversion of that ideal but is hardly going to see enforcement in a court of law
2024-05-21T00:45:34 < PaulFertser> GPL has already been enforced in courts.
2024-05-21T00:46:42 < PaulFertser> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_copyright_law_in_the_United_States
2024-05-21T00:48:31 < PaulFertser> OK, so Allwinner does that knowingly, on large scale, for getting financial gain. Looks like a match.
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2024-05-21T01:11:31 < sauce> let's be real here
2024-05-21T01:11:55 < sauce> a soc vendor cannot release foss drivers for its cores and peripherals that implement certain standards
2024-05-21T01:12:09 < sauce> this is by design
2024-05-21T01:12:46 < qyx> let's be real, it can
2024-05-21T01:13:30 < sauce> the mpeg LA, hdmi forum, etc say otherwise
2024-05-21T01:14:43 < qyx> what's the problem there? it has a defined API, the open source part is the client to the API, IP license is in the cost of the SoC, I can't see anything which cannot be done
2024-05-21T01:15:33 < qyx> WiFi vendors learned to live with those peculiarities
2024-05-21T01:15:43 < qyx> and yet there are oss drivers
2024-05-21T01:17:39 < qyx> we have a saying 'if there is a will, there is a way'
2024-05-21T01:18:53 < sauce> the short answer is patent pool licensing sucks
2024-05-21T01:19:19 < qyx> but fuk patents, patents did 9/11
2024-05-21T01:20:07 < qyx> we should learn to avoid some things as a society
2024-05-21T01:21:29 < PaulFertser> sauce: patents are different and unrelated topic.
2024-05-21T01:21:35 < PaulFertser> GPLv2 doesn't touch it.
2024-05-21T01:22:01 < sauce> at the end of the day if a vendor has to choose between violating the gpl, violating the terms of a patent pool license, the outcome is obvious
2024-05-21T01:22:05 < PaulFertser> If they can't comply with GPL then they must refrain from distributing altogether.
2024-05-21T01:22:13 < sauce> one of these things has teeth
2024-05-21T01:22:25 < PaulFertser> Fuck those vendors, god damn them.
2024-05-21T01:24:25 < PaulFertser> NXP is a SoC vendor too, do they violate GPL?
2024-05-21T01:24:28 < sauce> the third option is the careful delineation of blobs and open components and i would spitball the increase in development and maintenance costs to achieve this as an order of magnitude
2024-05-21T01:25:07 < sauce> and it's very technically and legally risky to architect around those boundaries
2024-05-21T01:25:39 < qyx> yes the outcome shoukd be obvious
2024-05-21T01:25:45 < qyx> avoid GPL software
2024-05-21T01:26:20 < qyx> there is a reason it is GPL
2024-05-21T01:29:07 < sauce> https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues/1417#note_2303163
2024-05-21T01:29:30 < sauce> amd built a foss implementation that they could not legally contribute to upstream
2024-05-21T01:29:46 < sauce> so the functionality continues to be relegated to closed firmware
2024-05-21T01:30:52 < sauce> (or simply missing)
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2024-05-21T01:34:49 < sauce> anyway PaulFertser we are very much in agreement from the idealist perspective but I guess my overarching point is...things are fucked
2024-05-21T01:34:55 < sauce> don't hate the player hate the game
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2024-05-21T10:15:20 < machinehum> catphish: 
2024-05-21T10:15:29 < machinehum> hmm
2024-05-21T10:15:47 < machinehum> Who else is in the bunch?
2024-05-21T10:16:09 < machinehum> Also I'm pretty sure most of the Allwinner manuals are leaks
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2024-05-21T11:07:24 < machinehum> "patents did 9/11"
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2024-05-21T11:10:24 < qyx> of course, they are slowing down all innovation
2024-05-21T11:14:19 < BrainDamage> that patents are used mostly to stifle innovation while being conceived to protect is quite ironic
2024-05-21T11:14:37 < BrainDamage> and too many places have invested crazy amount of money in it to easily let it go
2024-05-21T11:16:30 < machinehum> Does anyone really care about them anymore?
2024-05-21T11:17:35 < BrainDamage> yes
2024-05-21T11:17:41 < machinehum> oh okay
2024-05-21T11:17:50 < BrainDamage> companies make big bucks thanks to patents
2024-05-21T11:18:22 < BrainDamage> using them to wage legal wars at eachother
2024-05-21T11:19:09 < machinehum> Buying boats for lawyers
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2024-05-21T13:07:32 < Laurenceb_> gah, strain gauge still misbehaving
2024-05-21T13:07:44 < Laurenceb_> looks like subsample skips, really weird
2024-05-21T13:07:53 < Laurenceb_> I should probably get wireshark on the usb comms
2024-05-21T13:10:46 < Laurenceb_> I'm guessing the usb audio device isnt being serviced regularly enough by linux
2024-05-21T13:15:02 < Laurenceb_> also weird capacitive offset is still present arggg
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2024-05-21T13:43:30 < Laurenceb_> now the pi is dead
2024-05-21T13:46:26  * specing condones killing pis
2024-05-21T13:46:49 < Laurenceb_> rsyslogd using 100% cpu, think the card is dead
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2024-05-21T14:05:36 < qyx> I can sell him some strain gauge digitizers
2024-05-21T14:05:57 < qyx> but let's wait when he fails completely
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2024-05-21T18:06:32 < machinehum> qyx: What you selling?
2024-05-21T18:06:45 < machinehum> I'm actually in the market for these
2024-05-21T18:18:03 < qyx> nothing fancy yet, stuff for structural health monitoring
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2024-05-21T18:50:30 < machinehum> neat
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2024-05-21T19:31:52 < qyx> what is machinehum doing now?
2024-05-21T19:32:10 < qyx> fae for strain gauges?
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2024-05-21T19:50:12 < ColdKeyboard> Anyone doing 2.4GHz WiFi antenna tunning at home (on a budget)?
2024-05-21T19:50:24 < ColdKeyboard> Any tool recommendations?
2024-05-21T20:16:16 < machinehum> qyx: I got a job lol
2024-05-21T20:17:52 < machinehum> To which I'm actually trying to leave now but it won't stop raining
2024-05-21T20:19:05 < machinehum> I had like 4-6 really good leads when I moved here, but they were all from NA and didn't want to work with someone across the pond
2024-05-21T20:19:30 < machinehum> jbo actually had some work as well but I sadly turned that down
2024-05-21T20:19:58 < Steffanx> you turned mr jbo down? You have sinned mr.
2024-05-21T20:20:05 < qyx> lol
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2024-05-21T20:34:17 < BrainDamage> it probably had some sexual strings attached
2024-05-21T20:35:58 < Steffanx> This System_Error reminds me of ReadError. Did the internet ever find that guy again?
2024-05-21T20:36:38 < BrainDamage> readerror always reminded me of r2com, I wonder if the guy's now conscripted into invading ukraine
2024-05-21T20:37:07 < Steffanx> lol r2com. i forgot about him
2024-05-21T20:39:03 < machinehum> lol
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2024-05-21T20:41:18 < ventYl> jesus. fucking. christ. r2com
2024-05-21T20:41:48 < Steffanx> You have to admit, you do miss him a little, ventYl 
2024-05-21T20:41:58 < qyx> only a little
2024-05-21T20:42:28 < machinehum> https://imgur.com/a/yKDBzBm
2024-05-21T20:42:53 < machinehum> Happy-ish with that
2024-05-21T20:42:58 < machinehum> Time to check the lengths
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2024-05-21T20:45:41 < System_Error> Steffanx: is it one who had connection reset by beer?
2024-05-21T20:46:05 < System_Error> or its just some famous nickname?
2024-05-21T20:47:12 < qyx> machinehum: 2s/3s rule
2024-05-21T20:48:14 < Steffanx> heh idk, System_Error. 
2024-05-21T20:48:49 < machinehum> qyx: Yes for length matching?
2024-05-21T20:54:33 < qyx> machinehum: no, for spacing
2024-05-21T20:55:22 < qyx> otherwise you get crosstalks
2024-05-21T20:56:38 < qyx> 4
2024-05-21T20:58:53 < machinehum> mmm
2024-05-21T20:59:00 < machinehum> I'll see what I can do
2024-05-21T21:02:46 < machinehum> Would you guys use via. in pad for a BGA part?
2024-05-21T21:03:21 < machinehum> Like the extra step where they fill/finish the vias... then just drop the pads right on top of the vias
2024-05-21T21:11:32 < qyx> for 0.8 mm pitch bga there is no need
2024-05-21T21:11:40 < qyx> and I have not done anything finer
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2024-05-21T21:13:49 < qyx> a strom is approaching
2024-05-21T21:15:30 < Steffanx> oh will you be safe, qyx ?
2024-05-21T21:16:37 < qyx> idk looks like an end of the world
2024-05-21T21:18:12 < machinehum> This sucker is 0.65mm
2024-05-21T21:18:20 < machinehum> But has no ball areas
2024-05-21T21:18:44 < machinehum> https://imgur.com/a/BbIXUPl
2024-05-21T21:18:50 < machinehum> Jammed them all in there
2024-05-21T21:19:00 < machinehum> The lionshare of the pads in the middle are ground
2024-05-21T21:19:35 < machinehum> I might have to do this via in pad thing, seems like the process is cheaper and more available than laservias
2024-05-21T21:20:02 < machinehum> But yes, same, I have only done 0.8, so avoided
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2024-05-21T21:41:35 < qyx> Steffanx: do you remember the 'is he okay' game? what was it?
2024-05-21T21:41:52 < qyx> oh it was with stvn?
2024-05-21T21:44:05 < Steffanx> stvn has been gone for so long.. i forgot i think?
2024-05-21T22:12:42 < ventYl> Steffanx: actually I do. he was kinda more consistently funny than lolrence
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2024-05-21T22:40:39 < Laurenceb_> solved muh strain gauge issues
2024-05-21T22:41:12 < Laurenceb_> issue 1) inductive coupling between the two twisted pairs in the cable causing "capacitive" offset - i.e. at 90 degrees to signal
2024-05-21T22:42:08 < Laurenceb_> issue 2) Rpi 3 sometimes screws up usb scheduling during times of heavy network traffic, causing lost transfers, and the usb device cant buffer onboard
2024-05-21T22:42:25 < Laurenceb_> this explains why audiophools love their mu metal foil
2024-05-21T22:43:37 < qyx> why don't you buy a proper NI stuff for your gauges?
2024-05-21T22:44:17 < Laurenceb_> we tried but it failed epically - too much EMI
2024-05-21T22:44:31 < qyx> cdaq module for strain gauges + single slot usb chassis should be under 1000
2024-05-21T22:44:43 < Laurenceb_> this solution handles the EMI really well, but it glitchy due to use of rpi and long cable
2024-05-21T22:45:31 < qyx> long cable is not a problem for full bridges
2024-05-21T22:45:54 < qyx> long analol cable I mean
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2024-05-21T22:47:57 < Laurenceb_> NI stuff seems to be DC - that suffers from EMI induced offsets
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2024-05-21T22:50:21 < qyx> what sample rate are you targetting?
2024-05-21T22:52:11 < Laurenceb_> ~100Hz or so
2024-05-21T22:52:21 < Laurenceb_> atm I'm modulating at 6kHz
2024-05-21T22:54:02 < BrainDamage> is the lock-in done in sw?
2024-05-21T22:54:11 < Laurenceb_> yes
2024-05-21T22:55:13 < Laurenceb_> from the phase jumps it looks liek the usb audio adaptor uses 7.056MHz internal clock and delta-sigma ADC with downsampling to get to 48ksps or 44.1ksps
2024-05-21T22:55:33 < BrainDamage> that's super common with audio adcs
2024-05-21T22:55:39 < Laurenceb_> when the transfer fails approx 1ms +- some number of clocks will be skipped
2024-05-21T22:55:59 < BrainDamage> what mode is the audio card operating on?
2024-05-21T22:56:06 < BrainDamage> is it isochronous?
2024-05-21T22:56:20 < Laurenceb_> if it was just 1ms that would be okish, but there are phase shifts that cause the DSP to give glitches for a few ms afterwards
2024-05-21T22:56:26 < Laurenceb_> yes isochronous
2024-05-21T22:56:54 < BrainDamage> wierd is it sitting with other things on the bus?
2024-05-21T22:57:12 < Laurenceb_> yeah its rpi3, so there is 100mbps network adaptor off the main hub
2024-05-21T22:57:23 < BrainDamage> ouch
2024-05-21T22:57:28 < Laurenceb_> issue correlates with intervals of bad traffic on the ethernet
2024-05-21T22:57:37 < Laurenceb_> I looked with wireshark
2024-05-21T22:57:53 < BrainDamage> ok, that sounds unsurprising
2024-05-21T22:58:07 < BrainDamage> the simple thing would be to upgrade to rpi4
2024-05-21T22:58:19 < Laurenceb_> in theory usb host should be capable of handling it, but rpi usb drivers are notorious...
2024-05-21T22:58:32 < Laurenceb_> yeah I may have to swap to 4, but board needs some mods
2024-05-21T22:59:12 < Laurenceb_> I'm just looking to see if anyone has produced some bodges for rpi3 to improve performance first...
2024-05-21T22:59:35 < BrainDamage> is that the rpi kernel or vanilla linux?
2024-05-21T22:59:40 < Laurenceb_> rpi kernel
2024-05-21T22:59:47 < BrainDamage> I'd try to swap between them and see if there's difference
2024-05-21T22:59:57 < Laurenceb_> yeah
2024-05-21T23:00:18 < Laurenceb_> I might try CAT5 cable for the strain gauge.. see what happens
2024-05-21T23:01:32 < Laurenceb_> I though individually shielded would be best, but this cable seems to have a turn ratio issue
2024-05-21T23:01:38 < BrainDamage> try the necklace of ferrites too
2024-05-21T23:01:45 < BrainDamage> if the noise lowers, it's common mode
2024-05-21T23:02:07 < Laurenceb_> I already looked at that, its def inductive coupling between drive and sense pairs
2024-05-21T23:02:22 < Laurenceb_> at 6khz the B field will go straight through the foil shield
2024-05-21T23:03:59 < Laurenceb_> as drive and sense are fully differential, and capacitance between conductors of different pairs should be balanced in cat5 cable, it might work fine without foil shields
2024-05-21T23:04:23 < BrainDamage> try separate cables first
2024-05-21T23:04:33 < BrainDamage> if the noise disappears, then you're correct
2024-05-21T23:06:44 < Laurenceb_> yeah good plan
2024-05-21T23:07:57 < Laurenceb_> problem goes away if I take out the cable, yet capacitance all looks balanced in the cable. i plane offset goes up linearly with current being drawn by the bridge
2024-05-21T23:08:49 < Laurenceb_> when I put resistors in parallel with the drive feed across the bridge to increase current draw
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2024-05-21T23:43:53 < nomorekaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbrocjEoUp8 cat engine purrs
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--- Day changed ke touko 22 2024
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2024-05-22T00:44:26 < Laurenceb_> ohhh interdasting
2024-05-22T00:44:59 < Laurenceb_> I was just reading eevblog (inb4 lol) and someone says my problem with cable can be solved by swapping the pairs mid cable
2024-05-22T00:53:09 < Laurenceb_> the theory seems to make sense
2024-05-22T00:54:28 < nomorekaki> are you audio recording the hypertrain?
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2024-05-22T01:30:00 < Laurenceb_> no I'm interfacing with strain gauges
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2024-05-22T12:01:37 < machinehum> https://www.distrelec.ch/en/hx711-load-cell-amplifier-sparkfun-electronics-sen-13879/p/30145509?redirectQuery=SEN-13879
2024-05-22T12:01:48 < machinehum> You guys think those will shit the bed or what?
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2024-05-22T12:02:11 < machinehum> On the topic of strain gauges
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2024-05-22T12:08:59 < jpa-> machinehum: i would expect them to work according to specification
2024-05-22T12:10:33 < jpa-> you could buy the HX711 chip yourself from LCSC for 0.50 USD each
2024-05-22T12:14:21 < machinehum> Alright
2024-05-22T12:14:38 < machinehum> Hanging off the side of a machine, to enable washdown just shrinkwrap over the entier thing
2024-05-22T12:18:25 < jpa-> why no enclosure?
2024-05-22T12:18:35 < machinehum> jpa-: Because I'm a hack
2024-05-22T12:18:47 < jpa-> if you want high accuracy in industrial environment, shielded cables and metal enclosure would be good idea
2024-05-22T12:24:40 < machinehum> I need +- 100g
2024-05-22T12:24:47 < machinehum> Didn't do any math
2024-05-22T12:24:55 < machinehum> Just going to see
2024-05-22T12:25:06 < jpa-> such pro
2024-05-22T12:25:13 < qyx> shielded cables are not needed
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2024-05-22T12:25:20 < qyx> if you are not doing high freq sampling
2024-05-22T12:25:36 < qyx> and if you are not a laurence
2024-05-22T12:26:02 < qyx> machinehum: beware of the HX's sample rate
2024-05-22T12:26:13 < machinehum> I need 10 per second
2024-05-22T12:26:28 < machinehum> jpa-: Yes I'm a professional
2024-05-22T12:26:45 < qyx> you may not get 10, did you check?
2024-05-22T12:26:51 < machinehum> no
2024-05-22T12:26:53 < machinehum> lol
2024-05-22T12:26:55 < qyx> :>
2024-05-22T12:27:32 < qyx> oh selectable 10 or 80 sps
2024-05-22T12:27:38 < qyx> so you are good
2024-05-22T12:27:40 < machinehum> 10 BAM
2024-05-22T12:27:44 < machinehum> Another win for me
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2024-05-22T13:34:25 < zyp> hx711 works well, but it's a bit annoying to bitbang the interface
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2024-05-22T14:41:57 < qyx> zyp: what was the hdlc-like framing you used?
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2024-05-22T16:45:28 < machinehum> åd
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2024-05-22T17:19:37 < Laurenceb_> any lunix gurus about?
2024-05-22T17:19:55 < Laurenceb_> muh strain gauge interface has decided not to work at all on Pi4
2024-05-22T17:19:57 < Laurenceb_>  can't get debug descriptor: Resource temporarily unavailable
2024-05-22T17:19:58 < Laurenceb_> wtf
2024-05-22T17:34:38 < Laurenceb_> nvm fixed it - missing snd-aloop
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2024-05-22T17:58:34 < zyp> qyx, COBS?
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2024-05-22T18:47:54 < Mangy_Dog> need some clarification. the stm32 chip were using only has the BOOT0 pin not BOOT1. So assuming normal useage, pulled down run program from flash... But how do you go into DFU mode without a boot loader?
2024-05-22T18:48:39 < Mangy_Dog> our project uses an external micro thats meant to do OTA. But, its not entierly clear how. It pulls the boot0 pin up. But i thought you still needed a boot loader to go into dfu
2024-05-22T18:49:07 < Mangy_Dog> or if pulled up, does that mean you can still reprogram the flash space over uart?
2024-05-22T18:54:40 < PaulFertser> Mangy_Dog: what is the new chip? ROM bootloaders on different families have different capabilities.
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2024-05-22T19:01:56 < Mangy_Dog> the chip we want to program is a stm32f030rct
2024-05-22T19:02:21 < Mangy_Dog> ill be honest. The concept of programming this by a gsm card were using, wasnt my idea its been pased to me
2024-05-22T19:02:32 < Mangy_Dog> and frankly Im not entirely sure how it should work
2024-05-22T19:03:11 < Mangy_Dog> the way my boss seems to suggest it should work is the boot0 pin goes high, and new firmware is streamed over uart
2024-05-22T19:03:19 < Mangy_Dog> and ... well that doesnt seem right.
2024-05-22T19:03:41 < Mangy_Dog> 1 seems too easy to the point of, I think some steps are missing. Also I thought the chip needed a bootloader to go into dfu mode
2024-05-22T19:04:31 < Mangy_Dog> the gsm card is a blues note card
2024-05-22T19:04:43 < Mangy_Dog> its meant to be able to program target stm32s
2024-05-22T19:05:54 < PaulFertser> Mangy_Dog: in the datasheet for your MCU you can see it has "System Memory". That's the ROM bootloader, it's mask ROM, always there, always available.
2024-05-22T19:06:53 < PaulFertser> Mangy_Dog: then you see you need RM0360 family reference manual to get detailed information about all the functions.
2024-05-22T19:07:14 < Mangy_Dog> https://dev.blues.io/guides-and-tutorials/notecard-guides/notecard-outboard-firmware-update/
2024-05-22T19:07:53 < Mangy_Dog> So
2024-05-22T19:07:58 < PaulFertser> Mangy_Dog: so it's not just streaming firmware over UART, you need to talk the STM32 UART Bootloader protocol to the target MCU. But no extra bootloader is needed, the one inside every chip is enough.
2024-05-22T19:08:06 < Mangy_Dog> when boot0 is high it goes into that mask rom,
2024-05-22T19:08:20 < Mangy_Dog> ah
2024-05-22T19:08:21 < Mangy_Dog> good
2024-05-22T19:08:23 < Mangy_Dog> ok
2024-05-22T19:08:27 < Mangy_Dog> less nightmare
2024-05-22T19:10:15 < Mangy_Dog> thanks :)
2024-05-22T19:10:21 < Mangy_Dog> thats actually good to hear
2024-05-22T19:10:27 < PaulFertser> Mangy_Dog: :)
2024-05-22T19:11:45 < PaulFertser> Mangy_Dog: so this card has implementation of the stm32 uart bootloader protocol apparently and it looks like getting it all to work together is straightforward. So yeah.
2024-05-22T19:12:19 < Mangy_Dog> ill be doing tests with it in the coming weeks
2024-05-22T19:12:28 < Mangy_Dog> its a new thing to me... so will be interesting
2024-05-22T19:12:31 < PaulFertser> You can try the same protocol with "stm32flash" tool on a computer.
2024-05-22T19:12:49 < jpa-> could also be one of those "GSM to UART" thingies which are popular for industrial automation, then just run the protocol on opposite end
2024-05-22T19:13:55 < Mangy_Dog> i think thats kinda what it is
2024-05-22T19:14:20 < PaulFertser> This blues notecard is smarter
2024-05-22T19:14:36 < jpa-> https://dev.blues.io/guides-and-tutorials/notecard-guides/notecard-outboard-firmware-update/  looks like the blues notecard has specs on it
2024-05-22T19:14:42 < jpa-> ah
2024-05-22T19:14:45 < jpa-> linked already
2024-05-22T19:14:47 < jpa-> i cannot read :)
2024-05-22T19:14:50 < Mangy_Dog> but under theh blues brand its more aimed towards hobby and prosumer... but the card actual maker is a b2b... and were actually buying from that company other lts cards too
2024-05-22T19:15:08 < Mangy_Dog> :D
2024-05-22T19:16:49 < PaulFertser> It looks good for a quick way to be able to concentrate on your own unique features and care less about the connectivity aspect.
2024-05-22T19:17:02 < jpa-> "Firmware is uploaded to Notehub, then downloaded from Notehub to your Notecard"   i bet you use Notepad to configure this all
2024-05-22T19:17:11 < PaulFertser> :D
2024-05-22T19:17:16 < Mangy_Dog> :D
2024-05-22T19:17:18 < Mangy_Dog> likely
2024-05-22T19:18:03 < jpa-> PaulFertser: definitely.. when i was in a "iot" company there was a ridiculous amount of problems with over-the-air updates
2024-05-22T19:19:17 < Steffanx> Hows that possible when you are involved, jpa- ?
2024-05-22T19:19:58 < jpa-> Steffanx: of course i fixed it all!
2024-05-22T19:20:05 < Steffanx> Ah i knew it
2024-05-22T19:20:29 < jpa-> .. i also fixed their STM32F1 I2C, previously they just had watchdog restart the whole thing when it hung up
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2024-05-22T19:54:37 < qyx> sales guy: oh eye-oh-tee, much profit! lets do iot!
2024-05-22T19:54:53 < qyx> (sales guy googles) yeah we will use lorawan, because cool!
2024-05-22T19:55:19 < qyx> sales guy is asked if their device does OTA
2024-05-22T19:56:07 < Steffanx> At work we're doing an IoT project using Azure. Can you imagine?
2024-05-22T19:56:44 < qyx> (sales guy googles) of course! lorawan suports ota!
2024-05-22T19:57:11 < qyx> (sales guy asks r&d to implement ota)
2024-05-22T19:57:16 < qyx> now the saled guy..
2024-05-22T19:57:29 < Steffanx> Are you this sales guy?
2024-05-22T19:58:40 < englishman> lol
2024-05-22T19:59:03 < englishman> yeah it does ota >googles ota
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2024-05-22T20:02:38 < qyx> Steffanx: been there.. oh class B is multicast very well suited for batch ota!
2024-05-22T20:02:57 < qyx> then you realize no lorawan provider supports class B
2024-05-22T20:03:31 < Steffanx> hehe
2024-05-22T20:04:40 < qyx> then I started implementing bin diff updates
2024-05-22T20:05:08 < qyx> then the provider said "oh but but you may send max 10 downlink messages daily"!
2024-05-22T20:05:18 < qyx> TTN is the same
2024-05-22T20:05:23 -!- Livio [~livio@user/livio] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
2024-05-22T20:05:36 < qyx> fuk the whole lorawan and iot
2024-05-22T20:08:34 < qyx> how did you manage to incorporate azure in your iot Steffanx 
2024-05-22T20:08:54 < Steffanx> iothub
2024-05-22T20:09:07 < Steffanx> Database on azure, code on azure. 
2024-05-22T20:09:18 < Steffanx> C# and vue.js . Modern tech.
2024-05-22T20:10:53 < qyx> which db do they use?
2024-05-22T20:11:02 < Steffanx> mssql i think
2024-05-22T20:11:21 < qyx> nothing more current?
2024-05-22T20:11:24 < qyx> meh
2024-05-22T20:12:13 < Steffanx> it doesnt store much in the database, no history.
2024-05-22T20:14:07 < Steffanx> so no need for a "modern" database.
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2024-05-22T20:36:13 < Steffanx> Its probably Azure SQL though, but that's just something on top of the sql server engine afaik.
2024-05-22T20:36:32 < BrainDamage> I found the perfect tool for laurenceb https://github.com/taviso/ctypes.sh
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2024-05-22T21:05:12 < Steffanx> lol
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--- Day changed to touko 23 2024
2024-05-23T00:07:22 < ventYl> :D
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2024-05-23T00:18:02 < qyx> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/62344654/is-there-an-ansi-escape-sequence-to-set-colors-for-empty-areas
2024-05-23T00:18:19 < qyx> this seems to be really hard to solve
2024-05-23T00:20:29 < mawk> I'd use a blank character that is not a space
2024-05-23T00:20:31 < mawk> instead of space
2024-05-23T00:20:54 < mawk> maybe that would do it
2024-05-23T00:21:18 < mawk> ah nevermind it's for an editor
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2024-05-23T00:32:39 < qyx> yeah it works with a space but then I need to know the terminal width
2024-05-23T00:34:21 < sauce> set colour then clear?
2024-05-23T00:35:34 < qyx> no worky
2024-05-23T00:35:51 < qyx> it behaves like on the first picture
2024-05-23T00:36:10 < qyx> clear clears by the default terminal background color, not with the one set by the escape sequence
2024-05-23T00:36:38 < qyx> that is \e[45m\e[K does not work
2024-05-23T00:36:56 < sauce> ah works fine in konsole, too bad
2024-05-23T00:37:54 < qyx> xterm too
2024-05-23T00:37:59 < qyx> xfce4-terminal nope
2024-05-23T00:39:07 < sauce> might be worth just using ncurses instead of trying to cajole the terminal emulator yourself
2024-05-23T00:39:25 < sauce> or is this for a serial interface or something
2024-05-23T00:39:51 < qyx> yeah
2024-05-23T00:40:12 < qyx> the latter
2024-05-23T00:41:04 < qyx> I guess I can live with that
2024-05-23T00:44:50 < qyx> putty works too
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2024-05-23T16:39:16 < qyx> Unrouted: 67
2024-05-23T16:40:20 < BrainDamage> sounds like a movie title
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2024-05-23T22:43:24 < Laurenceb_> strain gauge interface working nicely
2024-05-23T22:43:38 < Laurenceb_> swapped to Rpi4 and alternated the cable pairs every 5m of cable
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--- Day changed pe touko 24 2024
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2024-05-24T00:24:19 < qyx> 47!
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2024-05-24T01:18:07 < Laurenceb_> this is unexpected - Rpi4 uses less power than Rpi3
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2024-05-24T18:12:15 < veverak> hmmm
2024-05-24T18:12:52 < veverak> anybody got good experience with the internal stm32 bootloader?
2024-05-24T18:12:56 < veverak> I wonder whenever to rely on it or not
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2024-05-24T18:56:08 < jpa-> veverak: it's been reasonably ok, the errata is a bit nasty sometimes
2024-05-24T19:11:25 < veverak> ah, interesting
2024-05-24T19:11:32 -!- c10ud_ [~c10ud@host-79-30-232-101.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
2024-05-24T19:11:38 < veverak> thing is I don't want to bother with my own and it seems we could use the internal one over UART
2024-05-24T19:16:15 < jpa-> sure
2024-05-24T19:16:22 < jpa-> the UART one is reasonably robust
2024-05-24T19:16:46 < jpa-> the DFU one works pretty well too but has more errata
2024-05-24T19:16:51 < jpa-> i haven't used the CAN etc.
2024-05-24T19:17:16 < karlp> what are the dfu errata to worry about besides "don't use a higih freq hse" ?
2024-05-24T19:18:20 < jpa-> karlp: i hit "don't use HSE that takes more than 1 ms to start up"
2024-05-24T19:19:05 < karlp> ahh, right. 
2024-05-24T19:19:12 < jpa-> and on windows, years back there was some driver version annoyance (otherwise it works reasonably nice and gets drivers from windows update)
2024-05-24T19:19:32 < karlp> so git cherry -v master >> 63 commits.  git rebase -x "make clean && make" runs 126 times?
2024-05-24T19:19:38 < jpa-> and then there is the problem that if you ever have any problem with ROM bootloader, zyp will blame you for not having a custom one
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2024-05-24T20:45:57 < mawk> there is a custom DFU bootloader on my new calculator
2024-05-24T20:46:07 < mawk> which is used from the website to upgrade firmware
2024-05-24T20:46:31 < mawk> by debugging their JavaScript I got the firmware files and unpacked the dfu package
2024-05-24T20:46:43 < mawk> but the real firmware is not that, it's a two stage thing
2024-05-24T20:47:19 < mawk> then I tried the read memory feature from that and I get data in return but it's weird
2024-05-24T20:47:30 < qyx> how does it upgrade from the web?
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2024-05-24T20:47:41 < mawk> it says like 0xBADBEEF where the interrupt vector should be
2024-05-24T20:47:50 < mawk> using web usb API 
2024-05-24T20:47:58 < mawk> it's in chrome at least 
2024-05-24T20:48:00 < mawk> probably ff too
2024-05-24T20:48:10 < qyx> oh chrome thing
2024-05-24T20:48:22 < mawk> well it's a standard thing
2024-05-24T20:48:30 < mawk> chrome just happens to implement it
2024-05-24T20:48:59 < mawk> they added a lot of stuff like that
2024-05-24T20:49:12 < mawk> it's necessary to allow PWAs to be actually useful
2024-05-24T20:49:28 < mawk> and chrome deprecated chrome apps in favor of extensions
2024-05-24T20:49:51 < mawk> so they have to implement these APIs in regular service worker context or main context 
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2024-05-24T22:19:36 < Steffanx> That's what ST provides, yes
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2024-05-24T22:58:39 < Laurenceb_> https://files.catbox.moe/w26fux.mp4
2024-05-24T22:59:19 < Laurenceb_> https://files.catbox.moe/nbd3pd.png
2024-05-24T23:00:28 < aandrew> wow
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--- Day changed la touko 25 2024
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2024-05-25T00:33:38 < karlp> "standard" because chrome implements it... :)
2024-05-25T00:34:01 < karlp> like, we have enough staff to write an spec doc, and even if no-one else implements it, it counts as standard now :)
2024-05-25T00:37:37 < qyx> so what exactly is chrome, is it a desktop environment because it effectively manages multiple "workspaces"? is it a gui toolkit because it runs apps? is it an OS because it allows apps to access the hardware?
2024-05-25T00:37:56 < qyx> I am starting to hate this approach
2024-05-25T00:42:20 < qyx> anyway, I want to pack "object name" and "version" into an ELF file
2024-05-25T00:42:41 < qyx> do ELF and other dwarf/gnome pros know about any standard way of doing this?
2024-05-25T00:47:13 < qyx> readelf --notes, getting somewhere
2024-05-25T00:53:20 < qyx> https://www.netbsd.org/docs/kernel/elf-notes.html
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2024-05-25T09:09:23 < BrainDamage> qyx: the last time I checked, there was one single thing missing from a browser to call it a kernel using common definitions
2024-05-25T09:09:42 < BrainDamage> it has (virtual) filesystems, hw abstraction, task manager, etc etc
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2024-05-25T12:38:37 < mawk> BrainDamage assuming direct control of the memory and exceptions?
2024-05-25T12:38:47 < mawk> or we can just call it an emulated kernel
2024-05-25T12:39:10 < mawk> or a kernel running on a very advanced computer composed of another kernel
2024-05-25T12:39:28 < mawk> a HCISC processor
2024-05-25T12:39:49 < mawk> with syscalls instead of instructions 
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2024-05-25T13:55:46 < Laurenceb_> anyone know the parasitic capacitance of a 0.25W through hole resistor?
2024-05-25T13:55:54 < Laurenceb_> I cant find sane figures...
2024-05-25T13:56:44 < BrainDamage> where you looking in a mirror, to not see anything sane?
2024-05-25T13:57:29 < BrainDamage> iirc for through hole, most of the capacitance is in the leads, so it's highly dependent on how it's mounted
2024-05-25T14:01:48 < Laurenceb_> hmm surely not as they are a long way apart
2024-05-25T14:01:56 < Laurenceb_> yet the body is solid aluminia
2024-05-25T14:03:48 < Laurenceb_> I'm using a 10M resistor mounted on pcb for automated calibration of strain gauges, but the shift in output has a component in the complex axis
2024-05-25T14:04:18 < Laurenceb_> it seems consistent with 0.7pF total capacitance, but that seems too high to me
2024-05-25T14:11:41 < qyx> how do you switch the resistor on and off?
2024-05-25T14:11:57 < qyx> and what gauge topology? 10M seems a lot
2024-05-25T14:12:10 < qyx> I am using 15/30k
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2024-05-25T14:14:08 < qyx> I would consider 0.7p a sane value, is it problematic for your 100 sps?
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2024-05-25T14:28:14 < Laurenceb_> I need to calculate usb phase lag, gain, and capacitive offset of the bridge
2024-05-25T14:28:33 < Laurenceb_> I cant calculate resistor parasitic capacitance at the same time as there is not enough info
2024-05-25T14:29:03 < Laurenceb_> its switched on and off using a opto-relay, but there is a reistor network to cancel out the parasitic capacitance of the opto relay
2024-05-25T14:35:01 < Laurenceb_> apparently jackd can accurately measure usb lag, not sure if I believe that, but I see some padded data when the system starts up, so maybe I can calculate lag by measuring that
2024-05-25T14:35:57 < Laurenceb_> really weird thing is that pi4 is stable on underpowered PoE system, but pi3 was browning out sometimes
2024-05-25T14:48:32 -!- Alexer [~alexer@alexer.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
2024-05-25T15:02:23 < qyx> opto relay has a nonzero leakage too
2024-05-25T15:02:43 < qyx> whatthe hell areyou doing with he gauge to care about those things
2024-05-25T15:15:30 < karlp> lolrencing, per usual
2024-05-25T15:27:06 < Laurenceb_> I have 10k resistor bridge across the two drive lines, then optorelay bypasses one side of it. 10M is from middle of bridge to one of the sense lines
2024-05-25T15:27:21 < Laurenceb_> this should take out optorelay parasitics
2024-05-25T15:29:03 < Laurenceb_> I'm trying to measure a few nanostrain
2024-05-25T15:29:32 < qyx> what's a few
2024-05-25T15:29:59 < Laurenceb_> <10
2024-05-25T15:30:07 < qyx> I did achieve <20 nm/m std dev
2024-05-25T15:30:09 < qyx> hm
2024-05-25T15:30:18 < Laurenceb_> nice
2024-05-25T15:30:38 < qyx> ok less than 10 is really challenging
2024-05-25T15:30:39 < Laurenceb_> my noise floor is around 10nm, but calibration needs more work - its supposed to be automated
2024-05-25T15:31:20 < Laurenceb_> I also need PoE then ~20m of cable through v high EMI environment to the sensor
2024-05-25T15:32:17 < Laurenceb_> I might have to resort to manually adjusted trimcaps
2024-05-25T15:32:45 < qyx> in the next revision I am gon a try a fully digital design with the gauge directly under the sensing pcb
2024-05-25T15:33:04 < qyx> which might be feasible in some situatio s
2024-05-25T15:33:41 < Laurenceb_> yeah, same here
2024-05-25T15:34:10 < Laurenceb_> not sure if I will use isolated CAN or ethernet
2024-05-25T15:34:25 < qyx> 10base-t1l here will be
2024-05-25T15:35:29 < qyx> are you doing "predictive maintenance" on that motor?
2024-05-25T15:36:35 < Laurenceb_> no - its for achieved torque measurements and impact stresses in service
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2024-05-25T15:52:18 < Laurenceb_> looks like pcb is fine <<0.1pF parasitics, but muh LCR is not good enough to measure <1pF across a 10M ohm resistor
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2024-05-25T17:05:06 < Laurenceb_> the RV-C J1939 standard is just n00b tbh
2024-05-25T17:05:18 < Laurenceb_> they added 8 bit addresses inside the J1939 packets
2024-05-25T17:05:44 < Laurenceb_> because one set of addresses isnt enough....
2024-05-25T17:06:47 < Laurenceb_> I suspect the idea is to allow multiple instances of the same hardware without having to deal with J1939 address resolution
2024-05-25T17:20:53 < Laurenceb_> everyone seems to be using RV-C for EV batteries
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2024-05-25T17:59:29 < BrainDamage> am I the only one that thinkss that Lebedev on telegram is a bot?
2024-05-25T17:59:49 < BrainDamage> I haven't seen a convo with them more than 1-2 one-sided sentences
2024-05-25T17:59:56 < BrainDamage> mostly inflammatory
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2024-05-25T18:27:22 < Steffanx> Yeah..
2024-05-25T18:29:10 < qyx> positive on that
2024-05-25T18:29:34 < qyx> we should give it some NSAID
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--- Day changed su touko 26 2024
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2024-05-26T18:01:52  * Laurenceb_ is trying to repair an acer laptop lcd...
2024-05-26T18:02:34 < Laurenceb_> backlight fails unless the LCD panel is twisted, prodding the FFC to the backlight sometimes causes it to flicker, but not very easily
2024-05-26T18:02:48 < Laurenceb_> problem inside the bottom of the panel where the LEDs are ?
2024-05-26T18:16:38 < Laurenceb_> lulwtf
2024-05-26T18:16:58 < Laurenceb_> >Conservutards want to introduce conscription
2024-05-26T18:17:06 < Laurenceb_> 0 seats 4 realz
2024-05-26T18:17:06 < BrainDamage> check the driver board
2024-05-26T18:17:32 < Laurenceb_> driver board looks ok, its only when I flex the panel itself that the backlight turns on/off
2024-05-26T18:18:09 < Laurenceb_> I'm going to try to dismantle the bottom of the panel but it looks tricky as there is the FFC for the pixels
2024-05-26T18:24:34 < Laurenceb_> crazy how there are asics bonded directly to the FFC
2024-05-26T18:30:25 < Laurenceb_> looks like maybe the issue is close to the point where the backlight FFC enters the panel - prodding it there causes the issue
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2024-05-26T19:12:18 < flyback-> anyone else have problems download stn32 cube
2024-05-26T19:12:34 < flyback-> like when you click the 24 hr link it just never connects
2024-05-26T19:17:41 < Laurenceb_> flyback is here?!
2024-05-26T19:17:49 < Laurenceb_> >using internet cloud sheeet
2024-05-26T19:18:37 < Laurenceb_> https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Flyback
2024-05-26T19:19:21 -!- rkta [~rkta@user/rkta] has joined ##stm32
2024-05-26T19:21:12 < flyback-> whatever
2024-05-26T19:21:48 < flyback-> yeah I blew the 10 yrs of dust off the discovery f4 and f0 boARDS
2024-05-26T19:21:58 < flyback-> along with msp430 and arduno
2024-05-26T19:22:02 < flyback-> going to learn some coding
2024-05-26T19:24:00 -!- dhiegov [~dhiegov@gateway/vpn/pia/dhiegov] has joined ##stm32
2024-05-26T19:24:17 < flyback-> busted the reset button off the f0 cause I carried it around in my work bag too long
2024-05-26T19:25:32 < flyback-> but only broke the top so I should be able to gut another tophat type switch and put in the guts
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2024-05-26T20:10:36 < octorian> Might not be something often considered, but does anyone know of a localization framework that's lightweight and easy to integrate into an embedded project?
2024-05-26T20:11:35 < octorian> It would be nice to try translating some of the UI of a project I'm working on, but I'd rather not have to build all the framework code for that myself.
2024-05-26T20:12:25 < octorian> (of course the whole problem of limited character space in an embedded UI is likely to make most translations full of awkward abbreviations, but it still might at least be worth a try)
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2024-05-26T20:30:05  * flyback- later all
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2024-05-26T23:43:38 < nomorekaki> how is innovation?
2024-05-26T23:45:58 < qyx> dead
2024-05-26T23:46:48 < nomorekaki> sure thing
2024-05-26T23:46:55 < nomorekaki> innovatin is hard
2024-05-26T23:48:10 < nomorekaki> I see lurence is back
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2024-05-26T23:52:37 < Laurenceb_> kek https://nitter.poast.org/MikeSington/status/1793760616907485232#m
2024-05-26T23:53:53 < nomorekaki> lurence
2024-05-26T23:54:02 < nomorekaki> your link no worki
2024-05-26T23:55:13 < nomorekaki> how is hypertrain?
2024-05-26T23:55:53 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.poast.org/pic/orig/media%2FGOS3xgDakAAAlOv.jpg
2024-05-26T23:55:55 < Laurenceb_> tfw
2024-05-26T23:56:44 < nomorekaki> I dont understand
2024-05-26T23:57:05 < Laurenceb_> hyperboss quit his jerb
2024-05-26T23:57:27 < Laurenceb_> but project continues, currently making pods for Neom (no joke)
2024-05-26T23:57:27 < nomorekaki> you are the boss now?
2024-05-26T23:57:33 < Laurenceb_> no luckily
2024-05-26T23:57:45 < nomorekaki> did hyperboss burn out?
2024-05-26T23:58:19 < Laurenceb_> yeah
2024-05-26T23:58:32 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.poast.org/pic/orig/media%2FGOS3xgBbwAAsfvl.jpg
2024-05-26T23:58:34 < nomorekaki> nice you have some backing from the oil kings now
2024-05-26T23:59:40 < nomorekaki> Laurenceb_ is the drivetrain still melting?
--- Day changed ma touko 27 2024
2024-05-27T00:01:01 < nomorekaki> flyback: some install gnu-arm-none-eabi and open vi
2024-05-27T00:02:26 < nomorekaki> flyback: I think visual studio code has some stm32 support too
2024-05-27T00:03:26 < nomorekaki> should do the job
2024-05-27T00:03:52 < nomorekaki> Laurenceb_: what they made driveline conduits from now?
2024-05-27T00:04:15 < nomorekaki> or did we conclude they changed from mild steel to stainless?
2024-05-27T00:04:39 < Laurenceb_> yeah its stainless now
2024-05-27T00:07:55 < nomorekaki> what else has exploded since then?
2024-05-27T00:09:17 < nomorekaki> it has been uneventful?
2024-05-27T00:11:38 < nomorekaki> are you still focusing to driveline or other areas?
2024-05-27T00:30:42 < Laurenceb_> other areas atm
2024-05-27T00:31:22 < Laurenceb_> lmao https://cdn-attachments.timesofmalta.com/2c0a11973577e53efb2c3b878c09b288ff078722-1667316161-11949729-1920x1280.jpg
2024-05-27T00:31:33 < Laurenceb_> what a line up
2024-05-27T00:32:19 < Laurenceb_> tfw dork guy second to right
2024-05-27T00:33:35 < karlp> ok, bought a qnap, and tried out ldlc.com.  adventures ahead!
2024-05-27T00:33:41 < nomorekaki> you need to learn to provide context Laurenceb_
2024-05-27T00:33:49 < Laurenceb_> oxford university
2024-05-27T00:33:50 < nomorekaki> who is the dork?
2024-05-27T00:33:57 < nomorekaki> I know that much lurence
2024-05-27T00:33:58 < Laurenceb_> dunno lol
2024-05-27T00:34:09 < nomorekaki> wat is happening in the photo?
2024-05-27T00:34:16 < Laurenceb_>  "the hooker will write ur name in the logbook"
2024-05-27T00:34:31 < Laurenceb_> whilst the king watches and dork guy sits at one side
2024-05-27T00:35:16 < nomorekaki> have you been there?
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2024-05-27T00:36:03 < Laurenceb_> unfortunately, yes
2024-05-27T00:36:19 < Laurenceb_> looks like its even more of a freak show since I was there
2024-05-27T00:47:55 < nomorekaki> there was some startup trying to make a maglev using standard steel tracks
2024-05-27T00:48:55 < nomorekaki> I'm doubtful about using eddy currents to lift a full size train. what do you think lurence?
2024-05-27T00:57:20 < Laurenceb_> yeah almost certainly not going to work
2024-05-27T01:08:46 < nomorekaki> hmm
2024-05-27T01:09:08 < nomorekaki> do you know the name of the startup?
2024-05-27T01:13:17 < qyx> I have seen it on the interwebs
2024-05-27T01:13:45 < qyx> no that's not it
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2024-05-27T05:10:29 < ColdKeyboard> Is CC BY-NC-SA considered an open-source license?
2024-05-27T05:11:05 < ColdKeyboard> Or is there a more appropriate license for hardware that basically just prohibits commercial use (ie reselling of the design)?
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2024-05-27T08:28:45 < jpa-> ColdKeyboard: in general open source licenses should not prohibit commercial use
2024-05-27T08:29:27 < jpa-> so yeah, you can use CC BY-NC-SA if you want to do so, but it is not considered open-source
2024-05-27T08:30:26 < jpa-> it will also severely limit the growth of the project if no-one can sell premade PCBs (not even you, after the first outsider makes a contribution without CLA)
2024-05-27T08:31:24 < jpa-> trademarks can be quite effective for "brand identity", and license restrictions will do absolutely nothing against chinese cloners
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2024-05-27T09:19:44 < qyx> I am using cc-by-sa
2024-05-27T09:20:03 < qyx> I consider cc-by-nc-sa worse than gpl in that regard
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2024-05-27T12:01:03 < karlp> yeah, by-nc-sa is fucking garbage.
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2024-05-27T14:06:00 < mawk> I use MIT for all my stuff
2024-05-27T14:06:10 < mawk> only requirement is attribution 
2024-05-27T14:06:24 < mawk> and nothing else
2024-05-27T14:08:21 < karlp> actually open source.
2024-05-27T14:15:11 < BrainDamage> for stuff I didn't care about, I have used the WTFPL, recently, I've wondered if the non-legal language actually makes it a non-big-company-commercial license because nobody would be willing to have the liability to use it
2024-05-27T14:18:16 < karlp> I like doing this: https://github.com/karlp/l2-ch58x-btle/blob/main/LICENSE#L1-L10
2024-05-27T14:19:06 < BrainDamage> ah, that's a good one
2024-05-27T14:19:46 < karlp> probably also not awesome for lawyers, but intent counts...
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2024-05-27T14:43:24 < ventYl> karlp: I'd say that it makes layer's job a tad bit easier
2024-05-27T14:43:46 < ventYl> as opensource is essentially everywhere, lawyers already learned how to work with OSS licenses
2024-05-27T14:43:55 < ventYl> in many cases, at least
2024-05-27T14:44:14 < karlp> well, that's my intent anyway, make taking it easier.
2024-05-27T14:44:32 < karlp> instead of the "can I add this bsd thing to my gpl project or vice versa shits"
2024-05-27T14:44:38 < ventYl> meh, so my cellular operator is "upgrading" their service by ceasing 5eur/month internet package and replacing it by 1,40 eur/day internet package
2024-05-27T14:46:10 < specing> such upgrade
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2024-05-27T17:13:12 < karlp> more awesome patent news: https://www.eenewseurope.com/en/micron-faces-paying-us1-3-billion-in-damages-to-hbm-patent-holder
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--- Day changed ti touko 28 2024
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2024-05-28T02:19:22  * flyback- later all
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2024-05-28T10:37:24 < Laurenceb_> https://files.catbox.moe/3i3244.mp4
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2024-05-28T12:21:57 < Mangy_Dog> On STM32s, whats  the difference between the Idd and IddA pins? is IddA for low power backup like a coincell to keep the flash and ram alive in off power states? and for RTC?
2024-05-28T12:22:18 < Mangy_Dog> or is it a more just a input voltage checking pin for monitoring the Idd?
2024-05-28T12:36:46 < Mangy_Dog> tbh the real issue is in our project, were not getting the low sleep mode power consumptions our boss was expecting
2024-05-28T12:36:57 < Mangy_Dog> we thought it would hit the uA but still around 4 or so mA
2024-05-28T12:49:18 < sauce> the vbat domain is what youre thinking of there
2024-05-28T12:50:10 < Mangy_Dog> ah
2024-05-28T12:50:33 < sauce> vdda is just for the dac, adc, comparators, opamps, etc
2024-05-28T12:50:44 < Mangy_Dog> ahh ok
2024-05-28T12:50:57 < Mangy_Dog> and tbh there doesnt appear to be a vbat pin on this chip
2024-05-28T12:51:07 < Mangy_Dog> i thought the idda might have been that pin
2024-05-28T12:51:12 < Mangy_Dog> but probebly not
2024-05-28T12:51:12 < sauce> depending on the line there are multiple internal power domains and sleep modes also, you should peruse the docs for your specific mcu
2024-05-28T12:51:59 < Mangy_Dog> been going through it
2024-05-28T12:52:04 < Mangy_Dog> f030rct
2024-05-28T12:52:11 < Mangy_Dog> https://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/stm32f030rc.pdf
2024-05-28T12:52:44 < karlp> you're probably just not actually sleeping the way you think you are...
2024-05-28T12:52:56 < karlp> or you have other stuff on your board that you didn't handle well.
2024-05-28T12:53:03 < Mangy_Dog> possible on both counts
2024-05-28T12:53:14 < karlp> is the debugger still connected? disconnect and _power cycle_ and measure again.
2024-05-28T12:54:10 < Mangy_Dog> yeah did that before
2024-05-28T12:54:43 < Mangy_Dog> there has been some changes... such as a change to the battery managment chip... it used an LDO before to drop from 12V... ive picked a buck type
2024-05-28T12:54:52 < Mangy_Dog> but not got these boards made yet
2024-05-28T12:55:02 < Mangy_Dog> so can only test with the older board at the moment
2024-05-28T12:55:44 < karlp> and what's the Iq of your LDO?
2024-05-28T12:56:33 < Mangy_Dog> right now not a clue... in fact. I dont even have the link to the datasheet on hand as the designs changed
2024-05-28T12:56:43 < Mangy_Dog> give me a min
2024-05-28T12:58:02 < Mangy_Dog> https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/bq24070.pd.
2024-05-28T12:58:05 < Mangy_Dog> https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/bq24070.pdf
2024-05-28T12:58:19 < sauce> which low power mode are you switching to?
2024-05-28T13:00:02 < Mangy_Dog> no iq listed
2024-05-28T13:00:13 < Mangy_Dog> but given its an LDO the iq might be lower than the bucking type
2024-05-28T13:00:22 < Mangy_Dog> but the lod had other issues as well... such as heat
2024-05-28T13:00:34 < Mangy_Dog> esp when dropping from 12-17 volts
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2024-05-28T20:55:19 < Laurenceb_> usb audio strain gauge is working
2024-05-28T20:55:29 < Laurenceb_> 3 nano strain per root Hz noise floor
2024-05-28T20:56:27 < Laurenceb_> turns out built in Lunix usb audio lag estimation can be made to work on Pi4, but there is a 16+-1 sample offset, probably due to hardware buffering / filtering
2024-05-28T20:57:51 < Laurenceb_> usb descriptor says 1 sample lag , but that seems unlikely - looks like lunix correctly uses the lag value from the descriptor
2024-05-28T20:58:14 < Laurenceb_> everything went horribly wrong on pi3 as usb drops in and out all the time
2024-05-28T21:00:30 < Laurenceb_>  the +-1 seems to be a clock sync effect on the hardware, works well enough atm tho
2024-05-28T21:15:31 < qyx> what preamp do you use?
2024-05-28T21:15:37 < qyx> and what is the FSR?
2024-05-28T21:15:56 < qyx> 3 nm/m is gud
2024-05-28T21:16:28 < qyx> although wait, you are saying 3 nm/rtHz
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2024-05-28T23:30:23 < Laurenceb_> qyx: no preamp at all, just straight into mic input of cheap discount usb audio adaptor, but I used pro coupling transformers inbetween
2024-05-28T23:31:07 < Laurenceb_> that gives 30dB total gain
2024-05-28T23:31:57 < Laurenceb_> FSR is +-0.2 millistrain
2024-05-28T23:42:46 < qyx> oh I am at +-10 m
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2024-05-29T04:49:31 < digimer> hi all, I'm trying to use a newhaven display LCD (https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/newhaven-display-intl/NHD-0216K3Z-NS-RGB-FBW-V3/3507741)
2024-05-29T04:50:09 < digimer> I found this document, but it doesn't really help (or I'm slow on the uptake) - https://www.digikey.ca/en/products/detail/newhaven-display-intl/NHD-0216K3Z-NS-RGB-FBW-V3/3507741
2024-05-29T04:50:45 < digimer> I'm wondering if anyone has links that are more beginner friendly on using the LCD 
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2024-05-29T08:18:31 < jpa-> digimer: datasheet seems clear enough to me, at what point are you hitting a problem?
2024-05-29T08:19:40 < jpa-> https://support.newhavendisplay.com/hc/en-us/categories/4409527834135-Example-Code   has some example code
2024-05-29T08:21:14 < jpa-> https://github.com/NewhavenDisplay/Serial-LCD/blob/master/Serial_LCD/Serial_LCD.ino  might be helpful
2024-05-29T08:22:21 < jpa-> https://newhavendisplay.com/blog/how-to-connect-lcd-to-arduino/   or this
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2024-05-29T13:17:57 < BrainDamage> https://github.com/Tracktion/choc/blob/main/gui/choc_WebView.h#L2074
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2024-05-29T13:22:53 < qyx> #embed or ..
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2024-05-29T14:18:13 < Mangy_Dog> Just ran into a issue with setting a pin in arduiono framework...
2024-05-29T14:18:27 < Mangy_Dog> So we have an external device thats reset is active low.
2024-05-29T14:18:31 < Mangy_Dog> But the pin cant be pulled up
2024-05-29T14:18:32 < Mangy_Dog> SO.
2024-05-29T14:19:08 < Mangy_Dog> pinMode(reset,OUTPUT_OPENDRAIN); ? but how do I stop it pulling up when HIGH
2024-05-29T14:19:08 < Mangy_Dog> ?
2024-05-29T14:19:14 < Mangy_Dog> its like i need a tristate
2024-05-29T14:19:20 < Mangy_Dog> to active low but float otherwise
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2024-05-29T14:58:51 < benishor> Mangy_Dog: perhaps disabling internal pullup will help?
2024-05-29T14:59:11 < benishor> you set the pin as input and you digitalWrite() a LOW to it
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2024-05-29T15:25:19 < qyx> what
2024-05-29T15:25:39 < qyx> opendrain is output, an opendrain output cannot pull high
2024-05-29T15:26:14 < qyx> if the pin is high, there is something else pulling it high which is unrelated to setting it as an opendrain output
2024-05-29T15:27:01 < qyx> it may be the internal pullup
2024-05-29T15:27:34 < qyx> anyway, you definitely need that "something" to pull it high
2024-05-29T15:27:39 < qyx> otherwise the thing won't work
2024-05-29T15:27:57 < qyx> it may even be the device itself having an internal pullup on the reset input
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2024-05-29T15:56:08 < Mangy_Dog> qyx, the question really is about the command to set the pin to float
2024-05-29T15:56:22 < Mangy_Dog> in arduino words... would HIGH be flow LOW be opendrain active
2024-05-29T15:56:28 < Mangy_Dog> flow-float
2024-05-29T15:56:29 < karlp> back on again for people who are into that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=804nPrAUAxg
2024-05-29T15:57:51 < Mangy_Dog> https://www.st.com/en/microcontrollers-microprocessors/stm32l0-series.htm down?
2024-05-29T15:58:01 < Mangy_Dog> having lots of trouble getting st sites to load
2024-05-29T16:11:23 < qyx> Mangy_Dog: setting an opendrain output to high disables the low side driver
2024-05-29T16:11:45 < qyx> idk what ardween does, but this is how it is usually do e
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2024-05-29T17:41:38 < Mangy_Dog> what i wanted to hear :D
2024-05-29T17:41:39 < Mangy_Dog> thanks
2024-05-29T17:41:58 < Mangy_Dog> also I just discovered JLCPCBs impeadance control options is.... DAMN GOOD
2024-05-29T17:43:00 < Mangy_Dog> can go as low as 0.0764 on prepreg... which really helps reduce trace thickness on some high speed lines... would make routing lpddr4 a lot easier
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2024-05-29T19:17:26 < Ecco> Hi :)
2024-05-29T19:19:13 < Ecco> I'm considering a new solar-powered design (I talked with you guys about various energy-harvesting PMICs)
2024-05-29T19:19:27 < Ecco> Now I'm diving deeper into the energy storage part
2024-05-29T19:19:59 < Ecco> I feel like supercaps have a very low energy density so wouldn't work for my application (too large)
2024-05-29T19:20:10 < Ecco> So I'm looking at different battery chemistries
2024-05-29T19:20:31 < Ecco> Traditional Li-Ion / Li-Po raise the problem of a voltage that's just too high
2024-05-29T19:20:49 < Ecco> so I would need an additional DC-DC to actually use the battery
2024-05-29T19:22:24 < Ecco> I can't tell if it's a bad thing (DC-DC will obviously have a quiescent current) or a good thing (buck converter could possibly yield a higher overall efficiency by powering the ICs at a lower voltage. E.g. 1.8V instead of 3.0V)
2024-05-29T19:44:38 < jpa-> lifepo4 is one option
2024-05-29T19:45:24 < jpa-> but there are also very low iq bucks, like TPS63900
2024-05-29T19:50:07 < jpa-> (TPS63900 is a cheat code for battery applications, being buck-boost it totally frees you from having to care about battery vs. operating voltage)
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2024-05-29T20:12:37 < Ecco> Yeah, it's funny you would mention this particular part, I was reading abotu it yesterday evening
2024-05-29T20:12:53 < Ecco> Plus it doesn't seem to be crazy expensive (~50c iirc)
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2024-05-29T20:25:22 < Ecco> (this is the doc I was reading - https://www.ti.com/lit/ml/slpp104/slpp104.pdf)
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2024-05-29T20:43:31 < Ecco> "TPS63900 has an additional feature that the output voltage can be dynamically switched between two user-configurable levels" Feels kind of like a cheat code indeed
2024-05-29T20:45:19 < Ecco> "Many loads, such as microcontrollers for example, behave resistive-like, and will show lower power consumption at lower operating voltages."
2024-05-29T20:45:41 < Ecco> Is that true? I was under the impression that STM32 were using a given amount of *current*, no matter the voltage
2024-05-29T20:49:01 < Ecco> (yeah, that looks like BS to me. I'm reading the datasheet of the STM32 I'm working with at the moment, and there is very little variation in current when VDD changes from 1.8V to 3.6V. e.g. stop mode, Idd goes from 17uA to 20uA. Or Dhrystone in run mode, 2.55 mA to 2.62 mA)
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2024-05-29T21:01:44 < jpa-> Ecco: yeah, for most MCUs current is constant, so at lower voltage the power is lower
2024-05-29T21:01:49 < jpa-> but i wouldn't call it "resistive-like"
2024-05-29T21:04:07 < jpa-> STM32 runs the core always at 1.2V through LDO, so that causes the operating current to be roughly constant
2024-05-29T21:04:44 < jpa-> if you look at some older parts like AVR, they have much more variation based on supply voltage
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2024-05-29T22:30:30 < qyx> Ecco: lifepo4 for saf&mature tech, low Iq buck, run at 1V8
2024-05-29T22:30:56 < qyx> or LTO for more wow, run directly at 1.8-2.7 V
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2024-05-29T22:44:29 < machinehum> You guys have a favorite framework for writing unit tests?
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--- Day changed to touko 30 2024
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2024-05-30T01:05:46 < karlp> *crickets*
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2024-05-30T09:37:09 < Steffanx> That sounds like a nice framework, karlp 
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2024-05-30T14:17:45 < karlp> man libnosys is.... special.
2024-05-30T14:18:20 < karlp> with nosys _or_ without, you call time(), it calls _gettimeofday_r() it calls _gettimeofday.
2024-05-30T14:18:38 < karlp> in nosys, _gettimeofday is (recently) a linker warning, plus ENOSYS.
2024-05-30T14:19:22 < karlp> ifyou don't use nosys.  you get no warning, and it "works" out of thebox, it just... returns zero.
2024-05-30T14:20:12 < karlp> so using nosys means.... I don't have to copy _sbrk into my own code, but, I have to provide all the null stubs myself, or I get linker warnings.
2024-05-30T14:20:26 < karlp> without nosys, I get no warnings that I'm calling stubs, it just does it anyway?
2024-05-30T14:20:35 < karlp> this is a weird world.
2024-05-30T14:23:35 < karlp> so nosys is now really a "turn some of your linker errors into warnings, instead of just being dummy implementations"
2024-05-30T14:23:53 < karlp> good side, I get to go and verify all syscall uses in mycodebase?
2024-05-30T14:24:01  * karlp cheers halfheartedly?
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2024-05-30T15:20:38 < qyx> https://mudita.com/products/phones/mudita-pure/
2024-05-30T15:20:50 < qyx> a piece of ardweeno for 309 eur?
2024-05-30T15:25:16 < qyx> (idk if ardweeno actually)
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2024-05-30T16:00:44 < machinehum> karlp: lol
2024-05-30T16:00:53 -!- nerozero [~nerozero@87.253.63.54] has joined ##stm32
2024-05-30T16:08:53 < BrainDamage> "ultralow sar" is fancy word for "crappy signal"
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2024-05-30T16:16:29 < machinehum> These minimalist phones are insane, just delete all the shitty apps on your normal phone
2024-05-30T16:17:27 < karlp> we got a cheap "nokia" 8210 4g for our daughter yesterday
2024-05-30T16:17:31 < karlp> you _can't_ delete the shitty apps.
2024-05-30T16:23:24 < BrainDamage> anything installed at os level in assdroid cannot be uninstalled, at best disabled, and if flagged as system program, not even that
2024-05-30T16:23:56 < machinehum> karlp: cheap nokia also works
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2024-05-30T16:30:56 < ventYl> even old Sony Ericsson back in 2010 had built-in applications that couldn't be removed
2024-05-30T16:31:34 < ventYl> unless you erased them manually from the filesystem
2024-05-30T17:07:41 < karlp> huh.  if I have _isatty in a .a, it can't find it at link time.
2024-05-30T17:07:49 < karlp> that's... confusing as hell.
2024-05-30T17:13:00 < qyx> machinehum: no, because my minimalist shitty phone can work 14 days on a single charge, android with bare aosp or cyanogen/lineage with all the crap removed was 4 days max
2024-05-30T17:13:09 < qyx> been there, done that
2024-05-30T17:14:18 < qyx> and that's not even comparable, because the android one had 3x higher battery capacity
2024-05-30T17:17:03 < karlp> 4 days or 14 is ~same in the apocolypse anyway.
2024-05-30T17:18:37 < qyx> during the apocalypse you turn off cellular because redundant
2024-05-30T17:18:47 < qyx> and then die
2024-05-30T17:21:35 < qyx> there was not a single usable long range mesh network or standard put into use during the last 10 years
2024-05-30T17:22:35 < BrainDamage> because mesh networks are expensive
2024-05-30T17:22:59 < qyx> and meshtastic is a joke
2024-05-30T17:23:23 < BrainDamage> and systemic failure is just not contemplated
2024-05-30T17:29:12 < qyx> OTR over LoRa mesh would be great
2024-05-30T17:29:45 < qyx> but what to think about people deciding to use a 32bit number as an unique identifier
2024-05-30T17:30:28 < qyx> and a pure and organic aes-ctr with psk
2024-05-30T17:33:57 < ventYl> karlp: weak symbols vs. archives?
2024-05-30T17:35:34 < karlp> https://github.com/karlp/test-static-linking-resolution
2024-05-30T17:35:36 < karlp> I don't know...
2024-05-30T17:35:54 < karlp> the _isatty_r is the weak one, and it calls the _isatty "final" one,
2024-05-30T17:37:57 < ventYl> and that _isatty is defined as weak symbol somewhere in newlib or nosys?
2024-05-30T17:38:09 < karlp> no, it' sjust hard called.
2024-05-30T17:38:32 < karlp> https://github.com/eblot/newlib/blob/master/newlib/libc/reent/isattyr.c 
2024-05-30T17:38:49 < ventYl> so no other possible source that could shadow the one ine liblol.a?
2024-05-30T17:38:51 < karlp> I believe the _r ones are weak,
2024-05-30T17:39:00 < karlp> it's not shadowing, it just doesn't find it at all.
2024-05-30T17:39:07 < karlp> sysisatty.c:(.text.isatty+0x2): undefined reference to `_isatty'
2024-05-30T17:39:26 < karlp> and it finds it fine when you link as objects or in one step as .c, but not if you put the .o into a .a first.
2024-05-30T17:39:28 < ventYl> yeah, this sometimes pops up due to contra-intuitive way how archives are linked
2024-05-30T17:39:58 < qyx> isn$t it the same issue you had recently
2024-05-30T17:40:10 < ventYl> it has similar roots, but the issue is different
2024-05-30T17:40:38 < ventYl> karlp: I guess that if you check the map file, the isatty.o won't be mentioned as something participating in linking
2024-05-30T17:40:45 < karlp> correct.
2024-05-30T17:40:55 < karlp> it gets compiled, but noeither removed, nor ptu into the map
2024-05-30T17:41:15 < karlp> --print-gc-sections doesn't remove it, but adding a #error into it "succesffuly" verifies it compiles it.
2024-05-30T17:41:31 < ventYl> the thing is: archives are ever only considered for linking if there is any missing dependency from outside of the library at the time they "appear" on the command line
2024-05-30T17:41:48 < ventYl> so basically you have to have any unresolved symbol present anywhere in the archive *left* to the library on the linker commandline
2024-05-30T17:42:15 < ventYl> if nosys provies *any* form of _isatty symbol, linker will accept it and don't give a damn about archive at all
2024-05-30T17:42:25 < karlp> this isn't with nosys at the moment,
2024-05-30T17:42:52 < karlp> nosys is just givine me warnings, and we want most of the syscalls anyway, so this is with "full" newlib.
2024-05-30T17:43:08 < ventYl> it doesn't matter where it comes from. in my specific case pico-sdk was injecting .c sources into my targets, so ISR handlers were present on the commandline before archive with the kernel of my RTOS
2024-05-30T17:43:13 < karlp> you can test in the github link, it's got everything there asminimally as I can find.
2024-05-30T17:43:14 < ventYl> so I wasn't able to hook ISRs
2024-05-30T17:43:48 < ventYl> I can test it a bit later, I am not on linux right now
2024-05-30T17:46:17 < karlp> putting the .a before the main.o doesn't change anything?
2024-05-30T17:51:17 < ventYl> No, because .o files inside archives are not considered for linking unless there are external dependencies to any symbol inside .a
2024-05-30T17:51:30 < karlp> but how is that not happening?
2024-05-30T17:51:33 < ventYl> so, an archive is not "just a bunch of .o files"
2024-05-30T17:52:27 < ventYl> this way: linker sees an .a file on command line. It then tests a question: "are there any unresolved symbols at this point of linking that can be resolved by anything in this archive?"
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2024-05-30T17:53:01 < ventYl> if the answer is "no" (which with .a being the first item to link is), linker will drop the .a entirely and won't even extract the content of the archive 
2024-05-30T17:53:45 < karlp> right, but with main first (libs last, like normal) it should go: hey, I still need _isatty() and look for it?
2024-05-30T17:53:54 < ventYl> right
2024-05-30T17:54:02 < karlp> but it doesn't....
2024-05-30T17:54:19 < ventYl> so my guess (while I can't built it right now) is that there is something in your environment, which provides some form of this symbol
2024-05-30T17:54:25 < karlp> presumable because it's actually main:isatty -> newlib:isatty() -> _isatty() -> ????
2024-05-30T17:54:35 < ventYl> while the build fails, it will be some weird form
2024-05-30T17:55:29 < ventYl> a wild guess would be, that newlib tags this symbol with some tag or warning or whatever, which makes it appear in the symbol table, yet without an address
2024-05-30T17:55:47 < ventYl> can you nm newlib for that symbol?
2024-05-30T17:56:06 < karlp> heh, 2009: https://embdev.net/topic/135529
2024-05-30T17:56:14 < karlp> startgroup shit might be enough to make this work...
2024-05-30T17:56:37 < ventYl> yes
2024-05-30T17:57:00 < ventYl> then the linker considers everything inside the group as one atomic item. either everything goes in or nothing
2024-05-30T17:57:42 < ventYl> I tried this to workaround pico-sdk issue, but only very recent CMake does support grouping, so I ended up creating a hack that dissects pico-sdk during CMake configure time
2024-05-30T17:58:20 < karlp> heh, now it moves on to undefined linker reference to exit.
2024-05-30T17:58:22 < karlp> cute.
2024-05-30T17:58:45 < ventYl> that's kind-of expected, isn't it?
2024-05-30T17:58:54 < karlp> no, I have exit stub as well.
2024-05-30T17:59:04 < karlp> that was required for direct compilation as well.
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2024-05-30T18:01:24 < karlp> ah, no. I hfucked up exit.c and had the worng form of the name
2024-05-30T18:01:30 < karlp> ok, so it's start/end group.
2024-05-30T18:01:35 < ventYl> exit instead of _exit?
2024-05-30T18:01:46 < karlp> which is the "just fucking search my godddamn libs mofo" aiui now.
2024-05-30T18:01:56 < karlp> yeah, I had exit directly, instead of providing the backing _exit
2024-05-30T18:02:06 < karlp> but my isatty was the correct _isatty.
2024-05-30T18:02:20 < ventYl> I opened the source file the very moment you sent the message
2024-05-30T18:03:39 < karlp> now. to go back upstreamand make cmake do the right thing in the right place....
2024-05-30T18:04:44 < karlp> oh god, it's already make my eyes bleed.
2024-05-30T18:05:51 < ventYl> unless you'll use very recent CMake version, CMake can't inject --start-group --end-group reliably
2024-05-30T18:06:03 < ventYl> you can try to hack it, but IME it doesn't work reliably
2024-05-30T18:06:40 < karlp> cmake, the future...
2024-05-30T18:06:56 < karlp> sounds easier to just not put things in .a's :)
2024-05-30T18:07:20 < ventYl> --start-group and --end-group are basically a hack on linker :)
2024-05-30T18:07:49 < qyx> it should be the default imho
2024-05-30T18:08:07 < qyx> resolve repeatedly until no more symbols are discovered
2024-05-30T18:09:02 < ventYl> karlp: I did try this: https://github.com/ventZl/cmrx/blob/3feec8bed1ad966f9846000b77ec2c6d8c204946/src/os/kernel/CMakeLists.txt#L22
2024-05-30T18:09:05 < ventYl> it didn't work
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2024-05-30T18:11:29 < karlp> lol, feature RESCANE not supported for C link language...
2024-05-30T18:13:04 < ventYl> one dirty hack how to force the compiler to consider an archive is to add some symbol from the archive into linker file
2024-05-30T18:14:16 < ventYl> via EXTERN() declaration
2024-05-30T18:14:44 < ventYl> yet even with that you may still have weird linking outcomes if linker decides to use some other symbol which has a higher precedence
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2024-05-30T18:41:43 < karlp> so yeah, for me, just explicitly calling -lc before -llol also works. and it may be easier than fucking with cmake's grouping bullshits
2024-05-30T18:50:37 < ventYl> sure, just make sure to document it, so when it falls apart sometime in the future, there will be huge grumpy comment documenting wtf is going on there, why and how to fix it.
2024-05-30T18:50:55 < ventYl> your future <me> will thank you for it
2024-05-30T18:53:24 < karlp> well, using the LINK_GROUP:RESCAN threw wildly more bullshit errors :)
2024-05-30T18:53:26 < karlp> but yes.
2024-05-30T18:54:10 < karlp> it's kinda neat, dropping nosys, freestanding and no-buitin, I've had to add four stubs, code size has not changed at all, and I now get a bunch of extra warnings on code that it now knows is wrong, instead of had to trust me before...
2024-05-30T18:54:15 < karlp> fuck nosys, nosys is dead to me.
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2024-05-30T19:08:41 < ventYl> are you targeting a bare metal system?
2024-05-30T19:09:15 < ventYl> I never really dived into nosys and various other options before
2024-05-30T19:09:44 < ventYl> just assumed that you have to use nosys on baremetal otherwise references to generally  non-existent symbols will be dragged in
2024-05-30T19:10:42 < karlp> bare metal yes,
2024-05-30T19:11:18 < karlp> basically, with modern toolchains, nosys gives you sbrk, and then a pile of warnings, which you can only turn off by providing stubs.
2024-05-30T19:11:31 < karlp> or.. you just provide sbrk and avoid nosys, and get hard up front linker errors?
2024-05-30T19:11:32  * karlp shrugs
2024-05-30T19:12:12 < ventYl> I see complications ahead with zyp's idea of paged memory allocator
2024-05-30T19:12:32 < ventYl> nevermind, that's a problem of future me
2024-05-30T19:12:40 < karlp> not really. you don't use nosys, so you have your own sbrk.... so you just handle it as you need to.
2024-05-30T19:13:08 < ventYl> right now I am dealing with damn yapicoprobe and/or openocd which falls into limbo every other attempt to start it
2024-05-30T19:13:33 < karlp> yapicoprobe?
2024-05-30T19:13:49 < karlp> oh, rp2040. fuk it
2024-05-30T19:13:56 < ventYl> yeah
2024-05-30T19:14:08 < ventYl> because rpi itself can't maintain their own code for picoprobe
2024-05-30T19:14:21 < ventYl> the support was actually better back in 2021, now it is defunct
2024-05-30T19:14:36 < ventYl> and stlink won't do it
2024-05-30T19:15:35 < karlp> it's... cmsis dap, but providing rtt and things itself?
2024-05-30T19:16:04 < ventYl> i am basically only interested in the DAP part, but yes
2024-05-30T19:16:11 < karlp> oocd can just do that itself over <whatever> without needing it specially in the adapter.
2024-05-30T19:17:06 < ventYl> as I understand it, the support is there for environments which don't use oocd
2024-05-30T19:18:37 < karlp> sure, it's just another thing that is "lol, layers?! nah....."
2024-05-30T19:18:47 < karlp> "I threw everythign into my tool because fuck review comments"
2024-05-30T19:20:14 < ventYl> the thing is, that the firmware apparently is fragile
2024-05-30T19:20:52 < ventYl> I run tests in a way: run gdb, flash target, set up breakpoints, run it. hit breakpoint for success or failure and then quit gdb with 0/1 failure to let the testing framework know if test passed or not
2024-05-30T19:21:42 < ventYl> to make things simple, I launch oocd in pipe mode. and either yapicoprobe or oocd doesn't like the way how gdb kills extended-remote in pipe mode at exit
2024-05-30T19:21:57 < ventYl> so every other test times out because it isn't able to connect to the target for whatever reason
2024-05-30T19:22:22 < karlp> hav eyou considered starting oocd once, and connecting to it repeatedly?
2024-05-30T19:24:16 < ventYl> not good for automation
2024-05-30T19:26:07 < ventYl> hm, I could wrap it in some awful shellscript
2024-05-30T19:31:02 < mouseghost> openocd has tcl interface
2024-05-30T19:31:11 < mouseghost> on 6666 on default iirc
2024-05-30T19:34:27 < ventYl> the only issue is how to make sure oocd runs when gdb will try to connect to it
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2024-05-30T19:36:15 < karlp> like this: https://github.com/karlp/libopencm3-tests/blob/master/rules.mk#L159-L163
2024-05-30T19:36:22 < karlp> connect to existing or fire up a new one...
2024-05-30T19:36:39 < karlp> or, you can do something like taht at least.
2024-05-30T19:40:18 < ventYl> this omits gdb entirely, doesn't it?
2024-05-30T19:40:25 < ventYl> how the test is evaluated if it failed or passed?
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2024-05-30T19:57:01 < ventYl> hm. a nice sideeffect of this arrangement is that tests run 60% faster
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2024-05-30T21:29:56 < ventYl> OK, it mostly works
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2024-05-30T23:40:44 < karlp> yeah, I was kinda sure it would be a lot faster too, that connect and startup is wayyy the slowest part.
2024-05-30T23:41:09 < karlp> I know my bit skipped gdb, but hopefully it had enough for the "is openocd running or do I start one" to get you going, sounds like it worked, whee... :)
--- Day changed pe touko 31 2024
2024-05-31T00:09:59 < ventYl> it is still not perfect, yet the problem is probably on the yapicoprobe side
2024-05-31T00:10:26 < ventYl> first gdb attached to the openocd just launched usually can't connect to the target despite `monitor reset halt` in GDB script
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2024-05-31T02:38:45 < nomorekaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzAdXyPYKQo if you startupping stay pre-revenue as long as possible
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2024-05-31T18:02:43 < Ecco> Damn, a battery supplier I reached out to uses the same SKU for two different batteries. I asked for a quote, and they were like "uh, wait, *what* battery are you asking a price for?"
2024-05-31T18:05:00 < Ecco> On a side note, I'm trying to find *small* LiFePO4 batteries, but I can't find any
2024-05-31T18:06:00 < Ecco> Do they even exist? Every single small consumer product that has a battery seem to use LiPo. Why does it seem like nobody is using LiFePO4 for small consumer electronic devices?
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2024-05-31T18:07:43 < ventYl> isn't the main advantage of LiFePO4 mostly useless for small devices?
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2024-05-31T18:12:44 < specing> Ecco: lower energy density?
2024-05-31T18:14:52 < karlp> popquiz: "msdifftime(mstime(), t0) > 60.0)"  what unit do you think the 60.0 is in?
2024-05-31T18:15:12 < karlp> (if you guessed ms == milliseconds, you would be _wrong_)
2024-05-31T18:16:12 < Ecco> ventYl: Well I guess it is indeed, but… what is it?
2024-05-31T18:16:54 < Ecco> specing: Yeah, this would make sense
2024-05-31T18:19:05 < specing> Ecco: and a LFP would last far longer than manufacturer-desired device lifetime
2024-05-31T18:21:21 < ventYl> karlp: they have their own unit, something like 1 MSTIME == 10ns?
2024-05-31T18:24:55 < Ecco> ventYl: What's the main advantage of LiFePO4 that you were refering to?
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2024-05-31T18:38:03 < ventYl> Ecco: more charge cycles in exchange for slightly lower capacity
2024-05-31T18:38:09 < ventYl> or why specifically do you want lifepo4?
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2024-05-31T19:04:19 < qyx> Ecco: there are 18650
2024-05-31T19:04:22 < qyx> and 14500
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2024-05-31T20:06:05 < jpa-> Ecco: there is lifepo4 AAA (10440)
2024-05-31T20:08:43 < jpa-> you can also get lifepo4 pouch cells, but i think compression is more important for lifepo4 cells than lipo, so they are not as useful in thin devices
2024-05-31T20:10:32 < jpa-> ventYl: lifepo4 is also generally safer and more environmentally friendly
2024-05-31T20:11:20 < ventYl> fair enough
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2024-05-31T20:45:54 < Ecco> jpa-: ok, that's what I was wondering. I'm interested in a pouch cell (b/c you can customize the design)
2024-05-31T20:46:13 < Ecco> What did you mean by "compression" though? Indeed I'd like the cell to be rather thin
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2024-05-31T20:51:08 < jpa-> Ecco: there should be strong enclosure around the cell to keep it from swelling up
2024-05-31T20:52:11 < jpa-> typically about 5 N/cm^2
2024-05-31T20:54:36 < jpa-> though i think you may be able to omit it if your discharge and charge currents are well below spec maximums
2024-05-31T20:55:53 < Ecco> oh, ok interesting
2024-05-31T20:56:11 < Ecco> Yeah, like I mentionned the other day, I'd be using the cell far, *far* from max currents
2024-05-31T20:56:36 < Ecco> Max discharge is going to be probably .1C? Max charge even less
2024-05-31T20:56:42 < Ecco> Good to know though!
2024-05-31T20:59:08 < jpa-> max discharge will depend totally on cell design
2024-05-31T20:59:31 < jpa-> for some lifepo4 cells the discharge max current is like 5C or more, for those 1C would be "light load"
2024-05-31T21:00:33 < jpa-> but in general finding small lifepo4 pouch cells in low quantities will be difficult
2024-05-31T21:01:21 < jpa-> cylinder cells are lot easier
2024-05-31T21:09:12 < Ecco> noted :) 
2024-05-31T21:09:42 < Ecco> Would you happen to know of a reputable manufacturer that would consider doing custom designs for small batches (e.g. 1k)?
2024-05-31T21:10:21 < jpa-> no
2024-05-31T21:10:26 < qyx> no
2024-05-31T21:11:04 < qyx> Ecco: check leobodnar (ref. laurenceb)
2024-05-31T21:11:05 < jpa-> how weird needs do you have that you already know you need custom?
2024-05-31T21:11:31 < qyx> many years ago he asked a chinese fab to make him li-ion cells with custom desin and electrolyte
2024-05-31T21:11:38 < qyx> and they did it and it worked
2024-05-31T21:11:49 < qyx> (for super low temperature ballooning stuff)
2024-05-31T21:11:59 < qyx> -60 °C operating temp
2024-05-31T21:14:04 < Ecco> oh wow
2024-05-31T21:14:24 < Ecco> jpa-: because I'm trying to make a wearable device
2024-05-31T21:14:35 < qyx> but it probably cost him his leg
2024-05-31T21:14:50 < Ecco> So I'm looking for a cell that's going to be lower than 100mAh
2024-05-31T21:15:07 < Ecco> And definitely smaller than 18650 or AAA
2024-05-31T21:15:19 < qyx> nah for a wearable I would go with pouch lipo
2024-05-31T21:15:22 < BrainDamage> test it with a giant cell, wires and zip ties
2024-05-31T21:15:23 < Ecco> In terms of off-the-shelf stuff, there are some nice 2020
2024-05-31T21:15:32 < Ecco> qyx: why?
2024-05-31T21:15:38 < BrainDamage> while you search for the batt
2024-05-31T21:15:41 < Ecco> Panasonic has a fun VL2020
2024-05-31T21:15:47 < jpa-> because the lifepo4 is always significantly larger
2024-05-31T21:15:55 < Ecco> Yeah, but it's solar charged
2024-05-31T21:16:04 < Ecco> So the capacity doesn't matter *too much*
2024-05-31T21:16:32 < Ecco> I mean, pouch LiPo works
2024-05-31T21:16:42 < Ecco> I may want to couple it with an efficien step-down converter
2024-05-31T21:16:49 < Ecco> But yeah, it would work
2024-05-31T21:17:05 < Ecco> I kind of like that LFP cells have 1/ Longer cycle life and 2/ Don't really need a step-down converter
2024-05-31T21:17:10 < Ecco> (be right back)
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--- Log closed la kesä 01 00:00:51 2024