--- Log opened su syys 01 00:00:50 2024
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2024-09-01T05:02:51 < upgrdman> karlp, yeah, i don't really even need a super nice scale. i just want something better for the kitchen, and figure maybe i should go the "buy once, cry once" route and just go crazy :) ... i'd like to do at least 2kg, with at least 0.1g resolution. 0.01g resolution would be nice for some very rare cases but not really required.
2024-09-01T05:03:46 < upgrdman> and all of the 0.1g kitchen scales i've tried are total shit. often min reading is 0.5g or 1g, and total shit repeatability.
2024-09-01T05:04:20 < upgrdman> i have a 200g 0.1g resolution scale from a&d, and it's been great. so i was looking at their pro stuff.
2024-09-01T05:05:32 < upgrdman> that 2.2kg 0.01g scale is only rated to meet specs at >14g, but it will read all the way down to zero if the youtube videos are to be believed. guessing the linearity isn't up to spec when <14g.
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2024-09-01T12:44:22 < karlp> I'd get two scales.  1g up to 5kg. and then a "small things one" that seems suitable.
2024-09-01T14:08:33 < BrainDamage> that's what I have too, a large things scale with 1g steps and a 200g scale for small things
2024-09-01T14:08:52 < BrainDamage> it's less convenient, but it's not difficult to buy decent scales with those requirements
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2024-09-01T17:05:40 < fenugrec> the same problems of dynamic range apply to scales... it's hard to make a 
2024-09-01T17:05:45 < fenugrec> >60dB scale
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2024-09-01T20:51:09 < Steffanx> mawk ping
2024-09-01T21:54:58 < jbo> hello
2024-09-01T22:00:28 < Steffanx> Gooday sir jbo 
2024-09-01T22:01:37 < Steffanx> Was machst du da?
2024-09-01T22:18:34 < jbo> eine neue platine
2024-09-01T22:25:25 < Steffanx> très bien
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2024-09-01T22:27:59 < mawk> I have it on good authority that you are quite the enjoyer of penises jbo
2024-09-01T22:28:02 < mawk> is that true?
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2024-09-01T22:28:40 < jbo> mine seems to be quite fine - can't lie about that.
2024-09-01T22:28:55 < mawk> I can recognize a true gentleman when I see one
2024-09-01T23:20:40 < upgrdman> lolwut
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2024-09-01T23:38:05 < Steffanx> I can confirm. Why you think BD and I only survived for one day at jbo's place.
2024-09-01T23:46:58 < karlp> had an aliparcel arrive today, after it had been refunded for no show.
2024-09-01T23:47:18 < karlp> ordered june 6.
2024-09-01T23:47:22 < qyx> what will you do !?
2024-09-01T23:47:30 < karlp> keep them. it was 1.71 USD.
2024-09-01T23:47:37 < karlp> I already bought replacements.
2024-09-01T23:47:54 < karlp> but you know how I was asking if anyone knew how to track teh "double tracking numbers"?
2024-09-01T23:48:15 < qyx> yeah?
2024-09-01T23:48:18 < karlp> the "final" trackingnumber that my post office was showing was on the outside package.  with a return address in fucking equatorial guinea.
2024-09-01T23:48:33 < karlp> and then inside that was the complete, original parcel, with it's tracking number....
2024-09-01T23:48:58 < qyx> ol
2024-09-01T23:49:24 < qyx> a new meaning for a local distribution place
2024-09-01T23:49:35 < karlp> thatinside one is actually a sticker on top of the _original_ one, but that at least appears to be the same tracking number, just in chinese.
2024-09-01T23:49:37 < jbo> awesome
2024-09-01T23:49:54 < jbo> glad to hear you got your LSD
2024-09-01T23:50:05 < karlp> nah, just some ntag215 stickers.
2024-09-01T23:50:13 < karlp> from when I still thought work product had a reader chip...
2024-09-01T23:50:16 < karlp> now they're just toys
2024-09-01T23:50:29 < karlp> gave one to my brother in law tonight programmed with the url of his small business.
2024-09-01T23:50:41 < karlp> he's going to stick it in the windscreen of his car, let people scan it.
2024-09-01T23:52:44 < jbo> must be nice to get parcel deliveries on a sunday
2024-09-01T23:53:06 < qyx> speaking of nfc
2024-09-01T23:53:26 < qyx> ie it possible to append a ndef record without touching the whole structure?
2024-09-01T23:53:27 < karlp> jbo: post box shit. it got dropped in the box at ~8pm friday night. I get three days to go pick it up
2024-09-01T23:53:31 < karlp> qyx: sure.
2024-09-01T23:53:33 < karlp> if there's space.
2024-09-01T23:53:41 < karlp> it's a seq of tlv shit
2024-09-01T23:53:43 < qyx> that is, without erasing the tag and writing the whole thing again
2024-09-01T23:54:16 < qyx> good but I am 10y late
2024-09-01T23:54:36 < qyx> I had a requestfor a solution for orie teering without internet access
2024-09-01T23:55:18 < qyx> a checkpoint device would append a signed record to the runner's card/tag
--- Day changed ma syys 02 2024
2024-09-02T00:03:11 < karlp> yeah, woudl totally work.
2024-09-02T00:03:29 < karlp> depending on how much "signature" you want per record.
2024-09-02T00:03:37 < karlp> they're normally very small remember.
2024-09-02T00:03:48 < karlp> cheap ones are like 500 bytes of user space.
2024-09-02T00:03:50 < karlp> or less.
2024-09-02T00:06:37 < qyx> I could have afforded 32k or so, there are not that many runners usually
2024-09-02T00:06:52 < jbo> running is pain
2024-09-02T00:07:11 < qyx> that's none of my business :P
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2024-09-02T00:39:22 < karlp> 32k what?
2024-09-02T00:39:44 < qyx> of eeprom
2024-09-02T00:40:19 < karlp> biggest st25 is 64k_bit_
2024-09-02T00:40:22 < karlp> ntags are smaller.
2024-09-02T00:40:49 < qyx> I don't care for chips, mifare is cheap, ndef compatible and 32k
2024-09-02T00:41:24 < qyx> they are used everywhere and everybody have at least 2 in the pocket already
2024-09-02T00:41:28 < karlp> what?!
2024-09-02T00:42:12 < qyx> mifare desfire ev2 32k is the minimum mandated specs for public transportation, public access control, etc.
2024-09-02T00:42:17 < qyx> at leaast here
2024-09-02T00:42:29 < karlp> sounds like you're being very modern then.
2024-09-02T00:42:42 < qyx> it is since 2012 or so
2024-09-02T00:42:52 < qyx> before that mifare classic 1k was used
2024-09-02T00:43:09 < qyx> it all costs literally nothing
2024-09-02T00:43:33 < karlp> like mifre ev2 is _max_ 32kB, I doutb that's the norm rolled out
2024-09-02T00:45:04 < karlp> my ccard is a ppse thing, not mifare at all.
2024-09-02T00:45:04 < qyx> trying to find that document but failing
2024-09-02T00:45:08 < karlp> my debit card is somethign random
2024-09-02T00:45:23 < karlp> my pool card is mifare classic ev1, 716 bytes.
2024-09-02T00:45:23 < qyx> debit is some nfc javacard thing
2024-09-02T00:45:44 < karlp> work is old rfid.
2024-09-02T00:45:58 < karlp> petrol loyalty card is old rfid too, or doesn't scan at least.
2024-09-02T00:46:43 < karlp> but sure, if you are providing cards, the price of 32k cards for bulk running operations would be insignficant
2024-09-02T00:47:12 < qyx> anyway, the project is dead as the customer is
2024-09-02T00:47:39 < karlp> what do running shit use?
2024-09-02T00:47:45 < karlp> I should talk to my runner friednds, scan their shit
2024-09-02T00:47:50 < qyx> idk
2024-09-02T00:48:40 < karlp> n24rf6, 64kbit is 0.48 bulk on mouser.
2024-09-02T00:49:13 < karlp> cheapest 64kbit >= 
2024-09-02T00:49:16 < qyx> it was my first and only encounter with running shit and nfc and I let it go from my head
2024-09-02T00:49:21 < karlp> I know mouser isn't the right place for this though
2024-09-02T00:49:32 < karlp> I think I remember you talking about it years ago?
2024-09-02T00:49:39 < qyx> yeah
2024-09-02T00:49:40 < karlp> or was someone else doing it? 
2024-09-02T00:49:47 < qyx> someone else at the same time
2024-09-02T00:49:54 < qyx> probably catphish or somebody else from the uk
2024-09-02T00:50:27 < catphish> i did a nfc board a few years ago
2024-09-02T00:50:34 < qyx> for orienteering?
2024-09-02T00:50:41 < catphish> yes
2024-09-02T00:50:46 < qyx> oh good memory
2024-09-02T00:50:50 < catphish> :)
2024-09-02T00:51:23 < qyx> i had a friend, she was an emmigrant to uk, she said brits like orienteering
2024-09-02T00:51:46 < karlp> .au as well.
2024-09-02T00:51:50 < catphish> a small subset of nerds sure do :)
2024-09-02T00:52:01 < karlp> there's a smalllll group of it here, but it seems to be in decline.
2024-09-02T00:52:05 < karlp> I used to hear more about it.
2024-09-02T00:52:17 < catphish> anyway, i used ST95HF, it worked very well
2024-09-02T00:52:18 < karlp> does .uk still call it rogaining ?
2024-09-02T00:52:49 < catphish> i've never heard of rogaining
2024-09-02T00:53:01 < catphish> seems like that's a long distance version
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2024-09-02T00:54:13 < catphish> for some reason i seem to only have the software, not the hardware design
2024-09-02T00:54:40 < karlp> ah right, they seem to have a different structure,
2024-09-02T00:55:17 < karlp> oh, seems ti's also a .au thing, not a uk thing :)
2024-09-02T00:55:32 < qyx> so, back on topic, what's the current consensus for shield connection on usb-c, UFP only?
2024-09-02T00:55:35 < qyx> a cap?
2024-09-02T00:55:45  * karlp walks away....
2024-09-02T00:55:58 < catphish> UFP?
2024-09-02T00:56:05 < karlp> (upðstream facing port)
2024-09-02T00:57:15 < catphish> i never gave that any thought, i always design the device-end, and i connect the connector to my board's ground plane and hence the USB GND, never occurred to me to do otherwise
2024-09-02T00:57:53 < karlp> you have successfully avoided much discussion, pain and heartache :)
2024-09-02T00:58:29 < catphish> presumably if you care more than i do, you just read the spec
2024-09-02T00:58:35 < karlp> lol
2024-09-02T00:59:15 < qyx> yes that's the device end and it should not be connected to the ground plane
2024-09-02T01:01:19 < catphish> now that i think about it, usually one would not connect the shield at both ends, and it makes more sense to connect it at the end that supplies the power, ie the host end
2024-09-02T01:01:49 < catphish> but also, leave me alone, i'm not hurting anyone by sending a small return current down the shield :)
2024-09-02T01:01:55 < karlp> hahaha
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2024-09-02T01:02:32 < catphish> so yeah, my way is wrong, but i can confirm it works great
2024-09-02T01:02:50 < karlp> hence the discussions and heartache :)
2024-09-02T01:03:58 < catphish> i have just ordered the first prototype of my lora controlled relay. something i pretty much completely neglected in the design was a way to configure it, but interestingly now that i ponder upon that, i think that the best way to configure such a device is probably remotely by RF anyway
2024-09-02T01:04:41 < catphish> step 1) sell a USB-Lora dongle at a wildly inflated price to installers :)
2024-09-02T01:05:02 < qyx> just use nfc!
2024-09-02T01:05:35 < catphish> it already has lora, so that's probably the easiest route
2024-09-02T01:06:07 < qyx> check how similar devices are managed
2024-09-02T01:06:21 < qyx> you could probably use some kind of onboarding key
2024-09-02T01:06:45 < qyx> randomly generated, printed on a qr code or whatever
2024-09-02T01:07:05 < qyx> (if we are talking about lorawan and not raw lora)
2024-09-02T01:07:08 < catphish> yep, that was my thought, a PSK that can be used to remotely configure
2024-09-02T01:07:27 < catphish> it's raw lora, i don't suppose that makes any difference to the concept though
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2024-09-02T01:07:50 < qyx> it does
2024-09-02T01:08:09 < qyx> because for lorawan you have to behave
2024-09-02T01:08:11 < catphish> i don't actually know what lorawan is, maybe i should look into it, but i saw no reason to add a network layer
2024-09-02T01:08:32 < catphish> oh, right, that's kinda why i saw no benefit, i was just gonna go simple and spammy
2024-09-02T01:08:35 < qyx> I guess there is no point in selling a lora device without lorawan
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2024-09-02T01:09:11 < qyx> unless made for extremely specific use case and known to never communicate outside your infrastructure
2024-09-02T01:09:18 < catphish> to me, lora is just a way to send some bytes with good RF sensitivity
2024-09-02T01:09:42 < qyx> personally I would never buy a rf device nowadays with a closed protocol
2024-09-02T01:10:08 < qyx> not saying lorawan is great but better than millions of random "mac" implementations
2024-09-02T01:10:25 < catphish> does lora(wan) have a standard iot protocol?
2024-09-02T01:10:26 < qyx> it is like saying "fuk tcp/ip, I just spam raw ethernet"
2024-09-02T01:10:38 < qyx> yes lorawan is the defacto standard
2024-09-02T01:10:57 < qyx> for unlicensed iot
2024-09-02T01:11:46 < qyx> if you want to sell iot for masses you *have to* support lorawan
2024-09-02T01:12:07 < qyx> or any other cellular-based iot protocol (lte)
2024-09-02T01:12:07 < catphish> > LoRaWAN is a cloud-based medium access control (MAC) layer protocol, but acts mainly as a network layer protocol for managing communication between LPWAN gateways and end-node devices, as a routing protocol maintained by the LoRa Alliance.
2024-09-02T01:12:12 < catphish> that doesn't sounds at all useful
2024-09-02T01:12:32 < qyx> I am not going to persuade you :P
2024-09-02T01:12:39 < qyx> but sooner or later you will find out
2024-09-02T01:12:43 < catphish> i'm much happier with the idea of a proprietary local network protocol
2024-09-02T01:12:57 < qyx> it totally depends on your use case
2024-09-02T01:13:10 < qyx> if you want to communicate device-infrastructure, go lorawan
2024-09-02T01:13:22 < qyx> it you are selling a consumer meteo station, go anything you like
2024-09-02T01:13:41 < qyx> and even in that scenario I would make it internet based with lorawan
2024-09-02T01:14:04 < catphish> what attracted me to lora initially was ELRS
2024-09-02T01:14:05 < qyx> also, there are many lorawan networks wildly deployed already
2024-09-02T01:14:15 < qyx> TTN, helium, etc.
2024-09-02T01:15:11 < catphish> i suppose the most obvious question is this - can i buy an off the shelf ethernet to lorawan gateway, and then use that to talk to my devices if they implement lorawan?
2024-09-02T01:15:16 < catphish> if so, there is some benefit
2024-09-02T01:15:50 < qyx> yes
2024-09-02T01:15:56 < qyx> or use a public service
2024-09-02T01:16:28 < catphish> i don't think there's any public lora service here
2024-09-02T01:16:34 < qyx> you think wrong
2024-09-02T01:16:46 < qyx> I already mentioned two which surely are operable in the uk
2024-09-02T01:16:51 < qyx> *operating
2024-09-02T01:17:24 < zyp> qyx, both ends
2024-09-02T01:17:28 < zyp> (usb-c)
2024-09-02T01:17:46 < catphish> zyp: contoroversial :)
2024-09-02T01:17:55 < qyx> zyp: great, thanks
2024-09-02T01:18:26 < catphish> zyp: out of interest, why would sending return current down the shield be a good idea?
2024-09-02T01:18:41 < catphish> i'm invested in this stupid conversation now :)
2024-09-02T01:18:44 < zyp> this has been discussed a bunch of times and the official word is that ground loops are less of an issue than EMI IIRC
2024-09-02T01:20:10 < catphish> qyx: interestingly there is a lora network near my new house, and looking at its location it's actually on a network that *I* manage lol
2024-09-02T01:21:09 < catphish> i don't really understand the concept though
2024-09-02T01:21:30 < catphish> seems unduly risky to rely on a public network when a gateway can be sold so cheaply
2024-09-02T01:22:25 < catphish> if there's some clever roaming then i'm totally into the idea of contributing to the network, but ultimately, i really only saw lora for its L1 capabilities
2024-09-02T01:23:16 < zyp> usb-c spec states «The receptacle shell shall be connected to the PCB ground plane.», and this requirement is not limited to certain kinds of ports like UFP or DFP
2024-09-02T01:23:25 < zyp> ref. 3.2.1 point 11
2024-09-02T01:24:09 < qyx> catphish: the traffic is encrypted, owning a gateway has no benefit at all if there is sufficient number of gateways in reach
2024-09-02T01:24:33 < qyx> the packet/s needs to be received by at least one of them
2024-09-02T01:24:58 < catphish> qyx: it it totally standardized and free to use?
2024-09-02T01:25:08 < catphish> like any device in range of any gateway can be reached?
2024-09-02T01:25:20 < catphish> seems like a utopia that's hard to comprehend
2024-09-02T01:25:26 < qyx> it is totally standardized and "free" depends on the infrastructure operator
2024-09-02T01:25:38 < qyx> there can be many
2024-09-02T01:25:44 < catphish> well that's where it gets painful then
2024-09-02T01:25:50 < qyx> a gateway owner may decide which operator to choose
2024-09-02T01:25:57 < qyx> device owner the same
2024-09-02T01:26:11 < catphish> well that's not terribly useful then
2024-09-02T01:26:32 < catphish> selling a device would only be possible of one operator had presence nationwide
2024-09-02T01:26:39 < qyx> no
2024-09-02T01:26:44 < catphish> no?
2024-09-02T01:26:52 < qyx> your device is not tied to one operator
2024-09-02T01:27:01 < qyx> like selling a phone
2024-09-02T01:27:08 < qyx> it is exactly the same
2024-09-02T01:27:33 < qyx> with the exception you may become a "bts" owner
2024-09-02T01:27:45 < qyx> or even a operator if you want
2024-09-02T01:27:57 < qyx> (that is the server infrastructure owner)
2024-09-02T01:28:12 < catphish> okay, sure, that makes sense to an extent, but it's totally impractical from a perspective of a consumer iot device, the consumer doesn't want to have to choose and pay for a network operator who may or may not exisit at their location
2024-09-02T01:28:47 < catphish> if such a thing could be guaranteed it woud be great, but without that guarantee, a local proprietary hub is a much easier sell
2024-09-02T01:28:50 < qyx> nearly 100% of license free iot devices use this concept
2024-09-02T01:28:53 < qyx> and lorawan
2024-09-02T01:29:08 < qyx> licensed use either nb-iot or something other
2024-09-02T01:29:31 < qyx> you will have no sales if you don't conform
2024-09-02T01:29:33 < catphish> no, nearly 100% of licence free iot devices are 802.15.4 or wifi or bluetooth and use a local hub
2024-09-02T01:29:37 < qyx> nobody is gonna buy your gateway
2024-09-02T01:29:46 < catphish> and everyoe buys gateways
2024-09-02T01:30:03 < catphish> i literally have a 802.15.4 gateway in my house
2024-09-02T01:30:16 < qyx> wifi is not iot, 892.15.4 is from the 2000
2024-09-02T01:30:42 < qyx> and bluetooth is not long reach
2024-09-02T01:30:50 < qyx> neither is 802.15.4
2024-09-02T01:30:55 < catphish> sure, but those are the techs that devices use
2024-09-02T01:31:00 < catphish> and people buy them, and their gateways
2024-09-02T01:31:12 < qyx> you are mentioning totally different products
2024-09-02T01:31:35 < qyx> when you open a shop for iot devices, there is probably no with 802.15.4
2024-09-02T01:31:40 < qyx> if you open ikea, sire
2024-09-02T01:31:49 < qyx> you get a bulb with a gateway
2024-09-02T01:32:04 < catphish> ^ this is what i'm building
2024-09-02T01:32:28 < catphish> (basically)
2024-09-02T01:32:33 < qyx> so why are you even co sidering lora?
2024-09-02T01:32:57 < qyx> lora is for serious outdoor iot stuff, as much as iot can be serious
2024-09-02T01:33:01 < qyx> and not light switches
2024-09-02T01:33:20 < catphish> i disagree
2024-09-02T01:34:02 < catphish> in my opinion, 802.15.4 and bluetooth are insufficient to cover a reasonably large house, and while wifi might work, it's not well suited to this type of application
2024-09-02T01:34:04 < qyx> I said, your use case dictates ehat to use
2024-09-02T01:34:17 < catphish> for better sensitivity, that really only leaves lora
2024-09-02T01:34:19 < qyx> and not the technology
2024-09-02T01:34:44 < qyx> no, 802.15.4 has meshing network protocols, ble too
2024-09-02T01:34:53 < qyx> lora does not, yet
2024-09-02T01:35:03 < qyx> lora is considerably slower
2024-09-02T01:35:08 < catphish> yes, IMO the mesh is an attempt to compensate for its poor sensitivity
2024-09-02T01:35:10 < qyx> and hard to use for realtime things
2024-09-02T01:35:22 < catphish> whereas lora simply fixes that problem with a better radio
2024-09-02T01:35:50 < catphish> qyx: i can call immediate BS on the idea that lora isn't ideal for realtime protocols
2024-09-02T01:36:42 < qyx> rf is not magic, you always trade "better" radio for something
2024-09-02T01:36:50 < catphish> quite simply, because i use lora to fly racing droness, and if it's fast enouh for that, it's fast eough for a light switch :)
2024-09-02T01:37:20 < qyx> lora is not any better than anything other if you choose the proper modulation
2024-09-02T01:37:32 < catphish> qyx: well, i searched, and i couldn't find a better off teh shelf 2.4GHz radio transceiver for this type of application
2024-09-02T01:37:38 < qyx> increasing spreading factor and making the radio better also lowers the bitrate
2024-09-02T01:37:44 < catphish> lora *is* the modulation
2024-09-02T01:37:57 < catphish> and i've not found aything as good
2024-09-02T01:38:14 < qyx> any other spread spectrum is about comparable
2024-09-02T01:38:21 < catphish> if you are aware of anything that offers similar sensitivity with a low cost transceiver, i'm all ears
2024-09-02T01:38:30 < qyx> css is not a breaktrough invention
2024-09-02T01:38:50 < catphish> no, i don't believe lora is actually that innovative
2024-09-02T01:39:07 < catphish> but... it's the only tech that exists that does high sensitivity, low rate 2.4GHz communication
2024-09-02T01:39:14 < catphish> at least, the only one i could fine
2024-09-02T01:39:16 < catphish> *find
2024-09-02T01:39:24 < qyx> lora is not 2.4
2024-09-02T01:39:37 < qyx> if it is, since when?
2024-09-02T01:39:46 < catphish> SX1280
2024-09-02T01:40:05 < qyx> must be something new
2024-09-02T01:40:24 < catphish> since 2017
2024-09-02T01:41:59 < qyx> fo you know any product actually using 2.4g lora?
2024-09-02T01:42:40 < qyx> anyway, not arguing about that, my points were missed
2024-09-02T01:42:48 < catphish> ELRS is the obvious one
2024-09-02T01:43:13 < catphish> basically all modern non-DJI drones
2024-09-02T01:44:57 < qyx> we are talking about iot
2024-09-02T01:46:50 < catphish> to the best of my knowledge, no home automation products use 2.4GHz lora, in fact i don't see them with 9xxMHz lora either, which is why i thought it might be a worthwhile experiment
2024-09-02T01:47:13 < catphish> i have seen longer range iot (for farming etc) with 9xxMHz lora
2024-09-02T01:47:42 < catphish> which i think is awesome, but a slightly different use case
2024-09-02T01:53:05 < catphish> fwiw the one person i know who has a lora setup bought their own gateway, but i think that gateway forms part of a larger network
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2024-09-02T01:57:59 < catphish> for larger scale iot, i think LTE (ie NB-IOT) is interesting
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2024-09-02T02:04:21 < qyx> yes gateways are parts of networks operated by a single entity ("operator") 
2024-09-02T02:04:46 < qyx> also, as of 2024-09-01 I am founding a no-IoT-shit foundation
2024-09-02T02:05:33 < qyx> because we are using iot for "remote data logging", "home automation", "remote control", etc
2024-09-02T02:05:54 < qyx> which are all totally different things requiring totallydifferent technologies
2024-09-02T02:06:35 < qyx> so starting from now I don't know what iot means
2024-09-02T02:07:43 < qyx> also people include eg. wearables in this category, which is again something totally different
2024-09-02T02:08:35 < catphish> yeah, iot covers a whole bunch of different classes of things, residential, industrial, conteol, data logging, coffee machines
2024-09-02T02:10:08 < catphish> i fear thie STM32G030 might not actually be quite good enough for this application, i assumed the cheapest simplest MCU would be fine, but G030 has no UID or RNG, making identification and security a slight pain
2024-09-02T02:10:20 < catphish> might go up to my trusty G4
2024-09-02T02:11:35 < qyx> attach an atecc608a maybe?
2024-09-02T02:12:05 < qyx> to complicate things a bit and do a super pro security
2024-09-02T02:14:54 < catphish> lol that does look secure :)
2024-09-02T02:17:24 < catphish> fortunately i can implement a robust enough security with some random 32 bit integers
2024-09-02T02:17:50 < karlp> :+1:
2024-09-02T02:18:27 < catphish> the main annoyance is somehow getting a key both burned into a device and printed on the outside
2024-09-02T02:18:42 < catphish> not a problem for a prototype, but something to consider
2024-09-02T02:19:56 < qyx> keep in mind there are some new eu regulations wrt. iot security afaik
2024-09-02T02:20:05 < qyx> oh but you are quitters
2024-09-02T02:22:15 < jbo> qyx, apparently ISO6741 is the new shits
2024-09-02T02:24:28 < catphish> yeah i saw there was something for CE regulations on iot security
2024-09-02T02:24:59 < catphish> i assumed that since i am pretty much an expert in IT security, they wouldn't be a bother, but i should probably read them
2024-09-02T02:25:27 < qyx> oh uk too
2024-09-02T02:25:48 < catphish> afaik UKCA is just a rip-off of CE
2024-09-02T02:26:02 < catphish> though i suppose it could have diverged by now
2024-09-02T02:26:12 < karlp> ukca is brexit winnnnnnnnnning
2024-09-02T02:26:18 < catphish> lol
2024-09-02T02:26:33 < catphish> both are acceptible in UK anyway
2024-09-02T02:26:56 < jbo> just move to france
2024-09-02T02:27:28 < catphish> not a tempting proposition. it's full of french
2024-09-02T02:28:46 < jbo> could be worse
2024-09-02T02:30:23 < qyx> jbo: for internet connected devices?
2024-09-02T02:30:33 < qyx> https://www.internetandtechnologylaw.com/eu-uk-new-iot-security-standards/
2024-09-02T02:30:37 < qyx> theres something
2024-09-02T02:30:40 < qyx> idk
2024-09-02T02:30:48 < qyx> not my fight yet
2024-09-02T02:31:05 < qyx> also idk if applicable to b2b
2024-09-02T02:31:46 < catphish> i don't think they actually defined anything yet
2024-09-02T02:32:24 < catphish> but... EN 303 645 seems to be the standard people assume should be the standard
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2024-09-02T10:03:54 < Steffanx> There's also some IoT stuff in RED now.
2024-09-02T10:04:46 < qyx> what's IoT Steffanx?
2024-09-02T10:07:09 < Steffanx> Who are you?
2024-09-02T10:07:34 < Steffanx> Also go sleep qyx. 
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2024-09-02T16:00:14 < jbo> moin
2024-09-02T16:27:01 < karlp> lol, you thought metric vs imperial was annoying: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/NM1d7.png
2024-09-02T16:44:10 < karlp> (and that china tael, is the "china market tael" which was actually abolished by law in 59, becoming 50g for the same name...
2024-09-02T16:44:15 < karlp> fantastic world :)
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2024-09-02T18:25:22 < jbo> I recentlly learned about the "Scandinavian mile"
2024-09-02T18:34:09 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: Posterdati, lemmi
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2024-09-02T18:56:50 < jpa-> finnish units of measurement: "how long you can hear a dog bark" and "how far can a reindeer go before it needs to piss"
2024-09-02T19:03:11 < BrainDamage> which one represents the correct interpersonal distance?
2024-09-02T19:03:49 < jpa-> that is measured by how far a wood chip travels along a river
2024-09-02T19:09:26 < jbo> :D
2024-09-02T19:10:09 < jpa-> (the tradition is that if you see a wood chip floating by your homestead, you take your axe and go show them where to stick theirs)
2024-09-02T19:19:43 < qyx> lol
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2024-09-02T23:21:06 < antto> "one and a half farts" distance
2024-09-02T23:21:22 < antto> aka "a fart and a half" away
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2024-09-02T23:21:46 < jbo> I think that's more of a brazilian unit of measurement
2024-09-02T23:22:10 < antto> why brazilian? do they hold the patent on farts?
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2024-09-02T23:24:37 < jbo> something along those lines, yes
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--- Day changed ti syys 03 2024
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2024-09-03T09:19:45 < qyx> hm I would use LIN transceivers for 115200 but they are rated to 20k max
2024-09-03T09:20:04 < qyx> y/n/yolo
2024-09-03T09:21:11 < jpa-> need datasheet
2024-09-03T09:22:54 < jpa-> for example TJA1020 with typical fall and rise times of 12µs will never work with bit time of 8 µs
2024-09-03T09:28:38 < qyx> tlin1021
2024-09-03T09:28:40 < qyx> hmm
2024-09-03T09:30:54 < qyx> yeah about 10 us too
2024-09-03T09:34:25 < qyx> now I am using a raw stm32 gpio in opendrain mode to do lin-style single wire uart at 5 V
2024-09-03T09:34:57 < qyx> my idea was to make it a bit more pro by using a more suitable transceiver
2024-09-03T09:44:51 < qyx> maybe a can transceiver with CANH permanently tied to 5 V
2024-09-03T09:45:04 < qyx> and using CANL as an open drain driver
2024-09-03T09:45:18 < jpa-> what's wrong with the GPIO?
2024-09-03T09:45:35 < jpa-> you can add a open drain buffer if you need faster drive or slew rate control
2024-09-03T09:48:24 < qyx> robustness
2024-09-03T09:48:49 < qyx> I need resistors, tvs, diode for pullup, etx
2024-09-03T09:49:12 < qyx> if I could replace all that with one chip, I wohld be happy to
2024-09-03T09:51:20 < qyx> something I can connect to a 1 m worth of cable and don't fear it brokes my stm32s
2024-09-03T09:58:03 < jpa-> maybe io-link, e.g. TIOS102?
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2024-09-03T12:38:34 < qyx> hm I forgot that iolink exists
2024-09-03T12:41:03 < qyx> nah iolink is point to point
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2024-09-03T12:45:46 < jpa-> sure, but the drivers can be used for open-drain
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2024-09-03T13:14:12 < qyx> I feel like opendrain too today
2024-09-03T13:22:55 < karlp> god I hate kinetis
2024-09-03T13:27:44 < jpa-> is your current work 100% kinetis?
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2024-09-03T14:51:01 < karlp> yeah, until I "finish" this shit and can go and stgart fucking up the world of the hw hackers writing sw for xmc4800.
2024-09-03T14:51:32 < karlp> but currently "finished" with one staage of k32l2a4 shits, and picking up tinyusb and k70 again.
2024-09-03T14:51:40 < karlp> and k70 is a bastard child.
2024-09-03T14:52:05 < karlp> but k70 performs better t han tm4c1294, which was subbed in during covid chip shortages.
2024-09-03T14:52:07  * karlp shrugs
2024-09-03T14:52:24 < karlp> it's precious and likes to go and lock itself and need this "mdm" unlock erase procedure
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2024-09-03T15:39:24 < jbo> alright so DHL package went: Dallas -> Cincinnati -> Geneva -> Cincinnati -> Geneva -> Zurich -> Geneva -> Leipzig -> Geneva
2024-09-03T15:39:47 < jbo> o.O
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2024-09-03T15:52:38 < mawk> jbo make sure the canals never freeze again in my city
2024-09-03T15:52:44 < mawk> making sure*
2024-09-03T15:52:51 < jbo> :D
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2024-09-03T16:02:52 < zyp> jbo, package did, or tracking events for the package did?
2024-09-03T16:03:03 < jbo> zyp, the latter. 2nd package has a similar story.
2024-09-03T16:03:48 < zyp> IME it's common for DHL to have tracking events for paperwork events that gets recorded in the destination country or a transit location despite the package not physically being there
2024-09-03T16:03:57 < zyp> which sounds like your Geneva events
2024-09-03T16:05:55 < jbo> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/8h3l3
2024-09-03T16:08:14 < zyp> right, so it actually went Dallas -> Cincinnati -> Leipzig -> Geneva
2024-09-03T16:09:24 < jbo> hmmm
2024-09-03T16:09:26 < jbo> I see what you mean
2024-09-03T16:11:57 < jbo> time to freeze mawks canals again then
2024-09-03T16:23:05 < Steffanx> Mawk doesn't know how to iceskate anyway.. 
2024-09-03T16:23:16 < mawk> :(
2024-09-03T16:23:38 < Steffanx> I'll give you some lessons mawk
2024-09-03T16:23:54 < mawk> the canals won't ever freeze anyway
2024-09-03T16:24:29 < Steffanx> But a pair of starter ice skates: https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/nijdam-glij-ijzers-blue-hmmbob-verstelbaar-maat-24-t-m-35-unisex-blauw-staal/9300000072867313
2024-09-03T16:24:37 < Steffanx> Buy*
2024-09-03T16:25:02  * jbo used to ice skate
2024-09-03T16:25:31 < jbo> then the glaciers went away
2024-09-03T16:26:10 < Steffanx> Blame DHL
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2024-09-03T16:44:36 < karlp> hrm, my outstanding issues to resolve appear to be related to LS devices attached to hubs in FS mode.  which olimex gave up on as unsolveable and went trying out different hub chips to find one that worked: https://github.com/hathach/tinyusb/issues/2517
2024-09-03T16:44:41 < karlp> I hope this really is resolvable....
2024-09-03T16:45:19  * qyx read understanding issues
2024-09-03T17:02:01 < jpa-> karlp: does the hub work with linux if you force it to usb1.1? or is it just totally broken when not using tt?
2024-09-03T17:16:22  * karlp shrugs
2024-09-03T17:16:27 < zyp> karlp, so the issue is when the upstream host-hub connection is FS?
2024-09-03T17:16:28 < karlp> it's soldered down.
2024-09-03T17:16:45 < karlp> yeah, host to hub is fs.  hub chip has strap pins to indicate that.
2024-09-03T17:16:47 < karlp> it... sort of works
2024-09-03T17:16:49 < karlp> but it's flaky
2024-09-03T17:17:17 < karlp> I still hope it' sjust khci/chipidea host support being flaky.
2024-09-03T17:17:20 < zyp> MCU without HS capability being the host?
2024-09-03T17:17:42 < karlp> welll, it _has_ hs capbility, with a utmi phy, so they... didn't od that, and connected to the fs port instead :)
2024-09-03T17:17:44 < karlp> but yeah 
2024-09-03T17:17:47 < karlp> effectively no.
2024-09-03T17:18:08 < karlp> onyl desire is for keyboards and barcode scanners to be attached anyway
2024-09-03T17:18:11 < zyp> and you're plugging keyboards into this thing?
2024-09-03T17:18:12 < zyp> right
2024-09-03T17:18:50 < karlp> gonna update and get 7 months of tinyusb changes first. try out some more.
2024-09-03T17:19:16 < karlp> even if it doesn't support hot plug, I can probably sell that as sufficnet.
2024-09-03T17:19:30 < karlp> (current state is "usb doesn't work" so it's all a win)
2024-09-03T17:20:25 < karlp> qutie a gear shift from the "fix up all the application fuckups" iv'e been doing the last few months though :)
2024-09-03T17:20:59 < zyp> hmm, is this an issue on the host, or on a second device attached to the same hub?
2024-09-03T17:21:37 < karlp> not sure I have a characterization yet.  it normally works fine on first plug, but re-attach the same single device will normally assert in tusb.
2024-09-03T17:21:51 < zyp> tusb being a host stack?
2024-09-03T17:21:53 < karlp> but I didn't find that bug report from olimex last time I was looking at this, and it sounds _super_ related
2024-09-03T17:21:56 < karlp> yeah, tinyusb.
2024-09-03T17:22:02 < zyp> ah, right
2024-09-03T17:22:29 < karlp> I never managed to get the legacy drop of kinetis code to work, and current kinetis is only supported via mcux, which for "reasons" doesn't support k70.
2024-09-03T17:22:52 < karlp> I evaluated maintaining our own mcux extensions, or working with tusb, and felt that was a better option
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2024-09-03T19:11:25 < jpa-> karlp: if you have the hub soldered down, you just need to put the mcu under reset and bridge d+/d-/gnd to usb port to test on a linux host
2024-09-03T19:13:47 < karlp> true enough I guess. might be worth it.
2024-09-03T19:14:05 < karlp> currently trying some "other" "supported" examples in tinyusb and thinking I should just go home instead :)
2024-09-03T19:33:50 < jpa-> at least you can throw it in volcano when you give up
2024-09-03T19:34:47 < karlp> I think trying the hub in forced FS mode from linux is a good idea though, going to to do that tomorrow.
2024-09-03T19:37:29 < jpa-> for bonus points, hook up logic analyzer and see where things go different
2024-09-03T19:39:25 < karlp> not yet :) many little bits in the wrong places still.
2024-09-03T19:39:25 < BrainDamage> how many km is the closest lava pool? you could build a trebuchet
2024-09-03T19:40:00 < karlp> hrm, right now, maybe 40k?
2024-09-03T19:40:16 < BrainDamage> too long :/
2024-09-03T19:40:23 < karlp> have to walk through an old unexploded ordance field to get there now too.
2024-09-03T19:53:04 < ds2> what precentage of the unexploded ordance will still explode when poked?
2024-09-03T20:21:07 < qyx> 40k km?
2024-09-03T20:21:23 < qyx> isn't it more than the size of the whole island?
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2024-09-03T20:48:26 < karlp> ds2: no idea. coast guard decided one of them had to be blown up insitu that was found by some walkers
2024-09-03T20:49:25 < karlp> qyx: google maps says it's about 40k by foot from work to the current lava pools.
2024-09-03T20:49:43 < karlp> oh, I see what you mean.
2024-09-03T20:49:46 < karlp> har har....
2024-09-03T21:01:13 < Steffanx> Its not International Talk Like a Pirate Day yet...
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2024-09-03T22:26:23 < qyx> karlp: sorry
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2024-09-04T02:08:50 < nomorekaki> how is innovation?
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2024-09-04T02:50:24 < qyx> ded
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2024-09-04T14:34:04 < jpa-> meh, inkscape crashes whenever i connect bluetooth headphones
2024-09-04T14:34:57 < mawk> nice
2024-09-04T14:35:03 < jpa-> apparently it is unsure how to use the volume control buttons for drawing
2024-09-04T14:35:18 < BrainDamage> that reminds me of firefox that'd start playing youtube if I launched a game
2024-09-04T14:38:30 < mawk> why do you use inkscape though
2024-09-04T14:38:32 < mawk> are you one of those artists
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2024-09-04T14:46:40 < yakubin> Hello. Total noob here. Do you have any recommendations for STM32 programming books? I’ve looked around and I’ve found some, but they were all focused on jumping into FreeRTOS. While I would like to learn FreeRTOS later, I’d like to start by learning programming everything myself (no libs, bootloaders or anything).
2024-09-04T14:47:52 < jpa-> https://www.st.com/content/st_com/en/support/learning/stm32-education/text-books.html   has a list, but i haven't read any of them
2024-09-04T14:49:23 < jpa-> "various different software development environments including Keil MDK, IAR Embedded Workbench, Arduino IDE and MATLAB"  "STM32CubeIDE"    pick your poison
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2024-09-04T14:52:14 < yakubin> That one seems promising.
2024-09-04T14:52:19 < yakubin> Thanks.
2024-09-04T15:01:04 < karlp> lol, my favourite: 
2024-09-04T15:01:17 < karlp> hub 3-4.1.2.4.1.2:1.0: Unsupported bus topology: hub nested too deep
2024-09-04T15:02:49 < jpa-> https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20240521-00/?p=109786   time to build usb cart of death
2024-09-04T15:11:06 < karlp> ok, so there's no pin strap for this hub to go to fs only mode, I was mis remembering that.  
2024-09-04T15:11:21 < karlp> so I modded a baord, and now I hav ea nice, reliable HS 2 port hub.
2024-09-04T15:11:38 < karlp> however.... I have my _own_ usb hub board, which _does_ have a config option to force FS upstream,
2024-09-04T15:12:00 < karlp> so I could bring that in, rewrite it's eeprom to be a FS only upstream, plug this test board downstream of that.
2024-09-04T15:13:41 < karlp> now that it's detached though, I can plug it into other test boards too, this is a good thing
2024-09-04T15:14:53 < karlp> either way, laptop->docking station->10 port usb3 hub has now run out of ports for me to have things plugged in at ports 9/10
2024-09-04T15:15:59 < karlp> actually.. no. the lol is that my bt headphones have a 4 port hub in them!
2024-09-04T15:17:32 < karlp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/qNRNc
2024-09-04T15:40:31 < mawk> but why
2024-09-04T15:40:39 < mawk> ah
2024-09-04T15:40:43 < mawk> yeah makes sense
2024-09-04T15:41:06 < mawk> I don't know if the hub class was necessary though
2024-09-04T15:55:56 < karlp> probably helps with different apps in windoes accessing the same device?
2024-09-04T16:07:56 < karlp> huh, this usb3 10 port hub doesn't even have a vid listed with usbif.
2024-09-04T16:09:00 < karlp> kinda want to open it up
2024-09-04T16:09:04 < karlp> lsusb
2024-09-04T16:10:48 < mawk> even with sudo?
2024-09-04T16:10:54 < karlp> curious, it's got blue ports, but it's actually SS upstream, and only HS downstream.
2024-09-04T16:10:55 < mawk> there has to be one
2024-09-04T16:10:57 < mawk> even if it's 0xFFFF
2024-09-04T16:11:00 < karlp> no, it has a vid, just not a legit one.
2024-09-04T16:11:02 < mawk> like in chinesium stuff
2024-09-04T16:11:04 < mawk> ah
2024-09-04T16:11:05 < mawk> right
2024-09-04T16:11:25 < karlp> and not in usbids, and only two hits on google for people with one in their lsusb output from some unrelated bugreports
2024-09-04T16:12:37 < karlp> ~ok no, it has them all.
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2024-09-04T16:17:27 < karlp> hah, lolk, it hasn't been fully programmed.
2024-09-04T16:25:36 < karlp> ok, raymx branded ICs inside. raymx is a subsidiary of realtek, so this: is not entirely unexpected: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/h7iAX
2024-09-04T16:26:32 < karlp> actuall,y realtek referred to them in their 2020 fin docs as a "Sub-subsidiary"
2024-09-04T16:44:16 < karlp> it's a typo in someone's programming setup I think.
2024-09-04T16:44:29 < karlp> raymx is vid 13554, which is 0x34f2
2024-09-04T16:44:40 < karlp> the devices are programmed with 0x43f2.
2024-09-04T16:44:55 < karlp> and that doesn't correspond to any known vid
2024-09-04T16:47:47 < mawk> looks like a typo yeah
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2024-09-04T19:10:55 < karlp> fuckin kinetis byte wide register access again
2024-09-04T19:10:59 < karlp> fucking craptastical
2024-09-04T19:13:40 < zyp> :D
2024-09-04T19:32:00 < karlp> I think i have "odd" data0/1 handling fucked up.
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2024-09-04T19:57:14 < BrainDamage> odd, what are the odds that the odd one is wrong?
2024-09-04T20:11:25 < aandrew> heh
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2024-09-04T21:55:06 < qyx> esphome pros, slow pwm, any idea to phase sync two outputs?
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2024-09-05T00:52:36 < karlp> lol, we're going to get altera back again.
2024-09-05T00:52:40 < karlp> good job intel
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2024-09-05T01:35:10 < jbo> oh, really? <3
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2024-09-05T11:13:18 < jpa-> https://www.trendforce.com/news/2024/09/02/news-amd-could-emerge-as-a-prospective-buyer-for-intels-potential-sale-of-altera/   i hope that AMD doesn't buy it, otherwise there will be severe lack of competition
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2024-09-05T12:58:44 < karlp> fuck me vschode is disgusting
2024-09-05T12:59:10 < karlp> it's just decided to forget all about esp-idf.
2024-09-05T12:59:16 < karlp> can't be reinstalled.
2024-09-05T13:39:53  * specing surprised pikachu face
2024-09-05T13:41:20 < jpa-> https://www.microchip.com/en-us/development-tool/atmel-qtouch-library-ptc   am i just stupid or why can't i see where to actually download it?
2024-09-05T13:42:33 < karlp> specing: yeah, tell me about it.
2024-09-05T13:42:41 < karlp> the love vscode gets is odd.
2024-09-05T13:44:13 < Steffanx> Just because you have some issue means everyone should hate it? 😕
2024-09-05T13:45:02 < karlp> I just haven't seen how anyone doesn't run into these things
2024-09-05T13:45:10 < karlp> it's _never_ worked as well as people claim it does.
2024-09-05T13:45:35 < karlp> I'mjust grumpy that apache killed the c/c++ integration in netbeans
2024-09-05T13:46:04 < Steffanx> It's not perfect, but its not worse than anything else for me though 
2024-09-05T13:51:11 < karlp> i still find it' scompletion and navigation to be super braindead
2024-09-05T13:51:59 < karlp> and I totally gave up using it to debug with
2024-09-05T13:52:10 < karlp> despite "everyone" saying that cortex-debug plugin is "awesome" 
2024-09-05T13:52:19  * karlp grumps
2024-09-05T13:57:02 < jpa-> i don't use use it because command line gdb is awesome, but when i wrote docs for a client it seemed to work ok enough
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2024-09-05T14:13:58  * karlp attaches a usb3 flash disk to his fancy new usb2-fs hub :)
2024-09-05T14:14:26 < karlp> ok. I found a new use for my hubbish project, the usb2517 there eeprom allows forcing upstream at FS only, and even STT or MTT.
2024-09-05T14:14:49 < karlp> so I've now got the hub in question attached to a FS only port, and it happily works just fine.
2024-09-05T14:15:10 < karlp> so at least olimex's concerns and bug report I can ignore, it's "just software" that needs work now :)
2024-09-05T14:20:14 < jpa-> ok, this is totally reasonable, i had to download and install 3 GB MPLAB IDE so that i would get the 30 kB of files that are the actual touch library
2024-09-05T14:22:50 < karlp> ok, updated vscode, uninstalled, restarted reinstalled, still b0rked.
2024-09-05T14:23:09 < karlp> whatever, no longer need it. idf.py command line worked fine to get the i2c eeprom rewritten I was using esp for anyway :)
2024-09-05T14:23:18 < karlp> back to kinetis, that will definitely make my day better  :)
2024-09-05T14:53:03 < jpa-> gah, the microchip binary library is provided as LTO object file for GCC 5.4...
2024-09-05T14:53:45 < zyp> aww, no C++20 for you
2024-09-05T14:56:54 < c10ud> karlp, get IAR
2024-09-05T14:57:10 < c10ud> def will make debugging nicer, as for the IDE........................................
2024-09-05T14:58:51 < jpa-> zyp: i think i can compile it to regular relocatable object somehow
2024-09-05T14:59:23 < zyp> yeah, probably
2024-09-05T15:00:08 < jpa-> i'm definitely not going to use the microchip-provided GCC.. they have done something funny to it  "Compiler option (Optimize for size) ignored because this feature requires the MPLAB XC8 PRO compiler"    probably they provide GCC source somewhere with their silly license hacks included :D
2024-09-05T15:00:19 < zyp> haha
2024-09-05T15:04:19 < jpa-> huh.. it build me the .o and claims it is relocatable
2024-09-05T15:04:22 < jpa-> this can't possibly work
2024-09-05T15:05:03 < zyp> why not?
2024-09-05T15:06:26 < jpa-> would be too easy
2024-09-05T15:07:17 < jpa-> the project compiles too and the symbols resolve.. i don't want more disappointments today so i'll test tomorrow
2024-09-05T15:16:05 < qyx> karlp: any memories triggered by this? https://github.com/libopencm3/libopencm3/blob/master/lib/stm32/common/i2c_common_v2.c#L382
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2024-09-05T15:57:30 < karlp> not really, I knew I put it in there, and it's still better than what was before :)
2024-09-05T15:57:49 < karlp> it needed some api thoughts on what to do with, or how to do meaningful timeouts library wide.
2024-09-05T15:58:37 < karlp> there's one or two suggestions in PRs I think, but they're  jus the "lol, we'll coutn down from 0xffff and then just return anyway..." which i don't really think is much of an imporvement.
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2024-09-05T16:16:34 < jbo> moin moin
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2024-09-05T16:59:09 < karlp> feckin wat? https://bin.jvnv.net/file/K74xa.png
2024-09-05T16:59:19 < qyx> idk I am hitting the while() with shtc3
2024-09-05T16:59:30 < karlp> how did class 1 end up in german in the docs?
2024-09-05T16:59:35 < karlp> but class 1a and class 2 are in english?
2024-09-05T16:59:40 < jbo> qyx, I have shtc3 running here right now - how can I help?
2024-09-05T17:00:04 < qyx> shtc is running fine until it stops
2024-09-05T17:00:08 < jbo> karlp, because germany is first class
2024-09-05T17:00:09 < qyx> cycling in libopencm4
2024-09-05T17:00:33 < jbo> qyx, what do you mean by cycling? periodic readouts or putting it into sleep mode and waking up again?
2024-09-05T17:01:08 < qyx> jbo: no it just stalls in a while loop inside the i2c lib
2024-09-05T17:01:16 < jbo> qyx, oh
2024-09-05T17:01:18 < qyx> most probably after so e error
2024-09-05T17:01:36 < jbo> qyx, one thing that comes to mind: the sensor has two addresses to read from: one with clock stretching and one without
2024-09-05T17:01:51 < jbo> are you using the one that matches your I2C setup?
2024-09-05T17:02:30 < karlp> why the fuck doesn't the hid class doc have a fucking ToC in it.
2024-09-05T17:02:32 < karlp> garbage old pdfs
2024-09-05T17:02:43 < jbo> karlp seems edgy today
2024-09-05T17:03:00 < Steffanx> lol only a little :P
2024-09-05T17:03:04 < karlp> adobe guidelins: "convert pdf to word document, add toc, resave as new pdf"
2024-09-05T17:04:58 < jbo> maybe Steffan shoudl ship some sativa to the island
2024-09-05T17:05:27 < Steffanx> mawk is your go-to person for things like that
2024-09-05T17:05:48 < jbo> oh, I assume that canabis is to mawk what water is to me.
2024-09-05T17:06:02 < jbo> a necessity, but absolutely not making your day :p
2024-09-05T17:06:03 < Steffanx> but make sure he doesn't add some DIYed GHB to the box.
2024-09-05T17:06:11 < jbo> what is GHB?
2024-09-05T17:06:38 < jbo> the only drugs I know are cannabis and cuddling with steffan
2024-09-05T17:11:22 < jbo> DHL just dropped off a $500 STM32 EVAL kit
2024-09-05T17:11:31 < jbo> time to put it on the shelve next to the other ones
2024-09-05T17:14:32 < BrainDamage> it can sit by my msp430 dev kit
2024-09-05T17:31:43 < BentoMon> eh msp430 I have some of those around too ... I at least play with the STM32L476 nucleo on occasion, cause it's handy for doing stupid
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2024-09-05T20:04:41 < emeb_mac> Hi all - been a while.
2024-09-05T20:10:09 < Steffanx> Gooday sir emeb_mac 
2024-09-05T20:10:52 < emeb_mac> Greetings - how's things in your region?
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2024-09-05T20:52:19 < Steffanx> This are alright here. Not much to complain, except for the heat :P
2024-09-05T20:52:23 < Steffanx> *things
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2024-09-05T22:06:56 < zyp> jbo, nice, which one?
2024-09-05T22:15:41 < qyx> Steffanx: today it was super cold here, 31°C max
2024-09-05T22:15:46 < qyx> expecting 28 tomorrow
2024-09-05T22:16:05 < qyx> usb-c PD pros, any recommended PD to 8 cell charger?
2024-09-05T22:16:10 < Steffanx> Yes, its lack of heat as well here.
2024-09-05T22:28:50 < jbo> qyx, BQ25756 can do USB-C PD
2024-09-05T22:29:23 < qyx> yeah but with zero hassle
2024-09-05T22:29:41 < qyx> literally a specialized standalone charger
2024-09-05T22:29:43 < jbo> it does up to 14 cells Li-ion or up to 16 cells LiFePO4
2024-09-05T22:29:55 < qyx> including negotiation, etc.
2024-09-05T22:31:04 < qyx> also with fallbacks
2024-09-05T22:31:23 < qyx> to support anything what common people have home
2024-09-05T22:53:31 < jbo> zyp, STM32H7453I-EVAL2
2024-09-05T22:54:00 < jbo> err... STM32H753I-EVAL2
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2024-09-06T01:55:46 < karlp> welcome back mr emeb
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2024-09-06T04:48:33 < emeb_mac> thanks karlp 
2024-09-06T04:49:27 < emeb_mac> Anyone here working with STM32H5 stuff? I got one of the Weact STM32H503CBU6 breakouts recently and have been fiddling with it.
2024-09-06T04:51:20 < emeb_mac> There's some new stuff in there that takes some study to use effectively - especially the GPDMA. Built up my usual I2S DMA with that and had a bit of "fun".
2024-09-06T04:53:16 < emeb_mac> TL;DR - when used with the SPI/I2S port in full duplex the TC/HT IRQs of the TX and RX sides aren't synced up the way I'm used to on older families w/ the SAI, so there can be some interesting overlap issues.
2024-09-06T04:55:28 < emeb_mac> Also - GPDMA can do either "Standard Request" or Linked-List operation. Std Req is supposed to work like the older DMAs but doesn't support circular mode, so you need to use Linked List if you want circular which adds a whole 
2024-09-06T04:55:38 < emeb_mac> 'nother level of fun.
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2024-09-06T04:58:13 < emeb_mac> Aaaaand, for those who use HAL, it's worth noting that there's a bug in H5 HAL v 1.3.0 - it doesn't correctly compute the frequency of PLL2 when you use fractional-n mode. Funnily, this is identical to a bug I found on the H7 five years ago. I reported it to ST on their community forum and eventually they fixed it, but the bug popped up again on H5.
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2024-09-06T09:59:48 < jpa-> ok, qtouch starts one measurement and then crashes when trying to jump to the callback function
2024-09-06T09:59:54 < jpa-> i guess this is progress
2024-09-06T10:10:01 < jpa-> meh, GCC makes my function pointer call _exit() instead of the function i give
2024-09-06T10:10:14 < jpa-> i guess it figures out my code is crap but doesn't bother telling me how
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2024-09-06T10:30:01 < jpa-> ah hm, that's just the implicit x2 in AVR code addresses
2024-09-06T10:32:49 < qyx> I think I need an additional breakfast first
2024-09-06T10:33:00 < qyx> any innovation must wait
2024-09-06T10:35:45 < jpa-> qyx has hit a hardware breakpoint
2024-09-06T10:36:33 < jpa-> ah, i think my bug is happening earlier, it is probably hitting unbound interrupt vector
2024-09-06T10:39:59 < jpa-> yay, it is no longer crashing and i'm getting some values
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2024-09-06T13:04:05 < karlp> fuckin hid is wild.  the choices for units of mass are grams, or.... slugs.
2024-09-06T13:04:12 < karlp> I had to go an dlook up what a slug was.
2024-09-06T13:04:52 < BrainDamage> how much is that in stones?
2024-09-06T13:05:31 < karlp> 1slug = 2.29 stones :)
2024-09-06T13:13:29 < karlp> "Note Physical Descriptors are entirely optional. They add complexity and offer
2024-09-06T13:13:31 < karlp> very little in return for most devices.
2024-09-06T13:27:49 < karlp> wha tdo people use high lead/ high melting poitn solders for?
2024-09-06T13:28:59 < karlp> ah, apparently using them in low temps, -200 where lead stays ductile and tin is brittle
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2024-09-06T16:51:38 < karlp> heh, theyv'e changed the setup for the ev charging stations at work.
2024-09-06T16:51:46 < karlp> 24kr/kwh for the first 4 hours, hten 1kr/min
2024-09-06T16:51:58 < karlp> it used to be free, but please no more than 4 hours...
2024-09-06T16:57:12 < zyp> that doesn't sound worthwhile; how much do you pay for electricity at home?
2024-09-06T16:57:28 < karlp> a litlte more than half that probably.
2024-09-06T16:57:45 < karlp> it's more the "1kr/min ... go and fucking unplug now mofo!" that I like
2024-09-06T16:58:00 < karlp> I odn't have an ev anyway *shrugs*
2024-09-06T16:58:35 < karlp> I imagine some of the PHEV types that only get 40-50km might use it.
2024-09-06T16:58:53 < zyp> is that 1kr/min in addition to the 24kr/kWh, or instead of?
2024-09-06T16:59:12  * karlp shrugs.
2024-09-06T16:59:53 < zyp> because 24kr/kWh is likely gonna be more than 1kr/min anyway
2024-09-06T17:01:38 < qyx> maybe most of the chards manage to charge during the first 4 hours and the 1kr/min is for those lazy ones not willing to go and park elsewhere?
2024-09-06T17:01:43 < qyx> s/chards/cars
2024-09-06T18:13:51 < specing> karlp: how many kW is the station able to supply?
2024-09-06T18:14:04 < specing> because if you're just topping up daily, then 4h is more than enough
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2024-09-06T18:23:14 < specing> 1 kWh = cca 5km of a typical electric pollutemobile (a car)
2024-09-06T18:25:16 < qyx> here it is 0.56e/kWh or so last time I checked
2024-09-06T18:25:21 < qyx> probably some disconts also
2024-09-06T18:26:53 < qyx> so electric is 11.20e/100km best case
2024-09-06T18:27:13 < qyx> diesel is 9e/100km workst case
2024-09-06T18:27:29 < qyx> but we must go green so whatever
2024-09-06T18:32:10 < specing> qyx: Wow, 0.56 ... wth.. where are you qyx ?
2024-09-06T18:32:27 < specing> at that price I'd go offgrind and run home off of a diesel genset
2024-09-06T18:32:35 < specing> offgrid*
2024-09-06T18:33:03 < qyx> specing: 0.56 is at public chargers, for homes the prices are 0.15-0.20
2024-09-06T18:33:07 < specing> ahhh
2024-09-06T18:33:16 < specing> yeah, I wouldn't use public chargers then
2024-09-06T18:33:24 < specing> 0.15-0.20 is also our high tariff
2024-09-06T18:33:34 < specing> low tariff is 0.10-0.15
2024-09-06T18:33:39 < qyx> same
2024-09-06T18:33:50 < qyx> but you don't get low automatically
2024-09-06T18:33:57 < qyx> you have to choose the plan
2024-09-06T18:34:01 < specing> we do, after 10 pm and before 6am
2024-09-06T18:34:19 < qyx> by default here it is about 2 hours a day only iirc
2024-09-06T18:34:34 < qyx> if you get some other plans, you may get as much as 20h daily
2024-09-06T18:34:51 < qyx> but then they require remote management of your loads
2024-09-06T18:34:51 < Ecco> Question: how much power does a small Amoled display use? I've been trying to find some datasheets to no avail
2024-09-06T18:34:54 < qyx> not much usable for a charger
2024-09-06T18:35:19 < specing> qyx: why not? charger is great for remote management
2024-09-06T18:35:37 < specing> it's not a washing machine where the water cools down if its not used
2024-09-06T18:36:29 < specing> as long as the car is charged next morning, you don't care if it gets charged right now or during the night or a bit here a bit there
2024-09-06T18:38:09 < qyx> I want ti to charge NOW
2024-09-06T18:38:15 < qyx> anyway, no EV here
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2024-09-06T19:50:02 < zyp> I can second that charger is great for remote management, my power company is giving me a 20% discount for that
2024-09-06T19:51:14 < zyp> or rather, they're guaranteeing that the average kWh rate I pay for charging doesn't exceed 80% of the average kWh rate I pay for the rest of my consumption per month
2024-09-06T19:52:05 < zyp> and they partly achieve that by charging during cheap hours and partly by selling on load regulation to the grid
2024-09-06T19:53:05 < zyp> I can configure how big the battery is and when I need it fully charged, and they take care of timing it so it gets done in time
2024-09-06T19:53:31 < zyp> and if I need it charged now, I can easily turn off the logic and pay regular price for the electricity for that particular session
2024-09-06T19:54:34 < zyp> I also have it configured to keep average hourly power consumption below 10kW (for the entire house), because my monthly rate goes up if I exceed that
2024-09-06T19:55:08 < qyx> thats impossible here for example, you cannot yrn off remote management if it is obligatory for your plan
2024-09-06T19:55:30 < qyx> on the other hand, there is a list of devices needed remote management
2024-09-06T19:55:45 < zyp> wouldn't be a major concern for me in any case
2024-09-06T19:55:48 < qyx> like heating, water heating, etc
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2024-09-06T19:56:22 < qyx> so for the others you don't havr to do it, although you can
2024-09-06T19:57:08 < zyp> I generally plug in the car on days it drops below 50% charge, and 50% is still plenty for the driving I do on a day to day basis
2024-09-06T19:57:30 < qyx> but I am considering that, I have 10 kWh daily surplus for 8 months of a year
2024-09-06T19:57:32 < zyp> and in the morning it'll be back at 100% again
2024-09-06T19:57:44 < qyx> but still he next car is not gonna be ev
2024-09-06T20:03:54 < qyx> any recommended EU custom battery packs manufacturers?
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2024-09-06T20:13:41 < Ecco> Oh boy, stupid game of the day: https://jellymar.io/
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2024-09-06T21:36:58 < Steffanx> Doesn't even work on mobile, what year is it Ecco ?!?!
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2024-09-07T13:27:06 < catphish> i thought i'd give cubeIDE a quick go for my new project, set everything up, generated code, added some code to blink a GPIO and sleep in between, the sleep function just hangs indefinitely :'(
2024-09-07T13:39:47 < catphish> hmm, works after a hard reset, just not with debugger attached
2024-09-07T14:34:55 < Steffanx> https://github.com/STMicroelectronics/STM32CubeF4/issues/113 something like that perhaps, catphish ?
2024-09-07T14:41:16 < catphish> Steffanx: that sounds very much like the problem, i wasn't clear why, but when booting with debugger attached, systick interrupt didn't fire
2024-09-07T14:41:58 < catphish> in my case it's a G030
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2024-09-07T18:36:51 < jbo> pros, how is proing going today
2024-09-07T18:58:48 < Steffanx> Can you give an example of proing so I get an idea of what that means Mr jbo?
2024-09-07T19:23:21 < zyp> https://www.prosentret.no/en/
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2024-09-07T19:54:19 < Steffanx> Thanks zyp. I see i cannot add more to this conversation
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2024-09-07T21:57:03 < catphish> i'm actually kinda happy with cubemx/cubeide today, i thought i'd be less anal about writing every line of code by hand, and it allowed me to get my board up and running demonstrating useful functionality within an hour or two
2024-09-07T22:00:44 < jbo> blasphemy!
2024-09-07T22:01:19 < octorian> I do that for my checkout code.
2024-09-07T22:01:38 < jbo> for me it just always cost more time to dick with CubeMX than it actually was supposed to save. but might be just me.
2024-09-07T22:01:48 < octorian> For my real code, I still use it to get started, but have recently switched to CLion for most of my actual development work.
2024-09-07T22:05:34 < catphish> it was nice for a prototype, maybe i'll rewrite later
2024-09-07T22:15:00 < octorian> I think my biggest gripe about CLion is that its so eager at warning/flagging damn near everything, including stuff that the actual compiler does not and will never care about, to the point where it just becomes a lot of noise you need to turn off.
2024-09-07T22:15:49 < octorian> Also, I still need to use something like CubeIDE to figure out all the correct compile flags and debugger arguments, but once that's moved over I do kinda like CLion.
2024-09-07T22:31:47 < jbo> octorian, that has nothing to do with CLion, that's just clangd. You can configure it in the IDE settings.
2024-09-07T22:32:07 < octorian> Yes, I know I can configure it in the settings.  And I do.
2024-09-07T22:33:31 < octorian> I also kinda like the new serial monitor plugin for CLion, though they seemed to have forgotten to display device details next to the port's device name.
2024-09-07T22:33:56 < octorian> (less of an issue on Linux, where I kinda already know where something's gonna show up, but a bigger issue on Windows)
2024-09-07T22:39:05 < octorian> One thing I could really use is a decent tool for helping me track down and optimize code size.  CubeIDE has something decent built in.  "amap" also works, but its not as user friendly and leaves a lot to be desired.  I have no idea what other options even exist in this space.
2024-09-07T22:54:52 < zyp> I've seen people mention puncover, but I haven't tried it myself yet
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2024-09-07T23:13:26 < octorian> Never heard of it, but apparently my web browser thinks I have.
2024-09-07T23:14:04 < octorian> Looks like I installed it a while back, and then totally forgot about it :-)
2024-09-07T23:18:29 < octorian> Could be a decent staring point, but I feel like there's a level of "interactive exploration usability" its missing. (not sure what the right term there is)
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2024-09-08T00:39:36 < qyx> hello nighttime birds
2024-09-08T00:46:29 < qyx> no innovation ongoing?
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2024-09-08T01:59:59 < Laurenceb_> suppppp
2024-09-08T02:00:08  * Laurenceb_ has burnt out a variac
2024-09-08T02:02:26 < Laurenceb_> dunno what went wrong, maybe they need to be worn in
2024-09-08T02:06:23 < Laurenceb_> this thing has roller brushes
2024-09-08T02:29:22 < qyx> ok I cannot get output compare working
2024-09-08T02:29:26 < qyx> on a copypasted code
2024-09-08T02:29:29 < qyx> yes on tim1
2024-09-08T02:37:28 < qyx> gpio is configured ok, all basically works, timer counts but when I enable the OC output, it stays high
2024-09-08T02:39:55 < qyx> it looks like as if it simply failed to compare
2024-09-08T02:44:11 < qyx> my code is the same as here https://github.com/libopencm3/libopencm3-examples/blob/master/examples/stm32/f1/stm32-h103/pwm_6step/pwm_6step.c
2024-09-08T02:46:40 < qyx> ok don't ask
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2024-09-08T04:58:39 < octorian> So on the hardware side of things...  Docs for my MCU say Vcap should get a capacitor that's 4.7uF with <1 ohm ESR.  Doesn't go into any detail on exactly what sort of actual cap that should be.  The Nucleo-64 BOM uses a 1206 cap for this part.  That seems rather large, so just wondering if its best to stick with that or go smaller.
2024-09-08T04:59:06 < octorian> (I did see a doc somewhere showing that 1206 has a much shallower voltage drop-off than 0603, so that could be a rationale)
2024-09-08T05:00:47 < octorian> (and of course MLCCs never actually list ESR in their specs, but its supposedly really low)
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2024-09-08T08:36:04 < jpa-> octorian: smaller is fine as long as you calculate the voltage derating and add a larger capacitor
2024-09-08T08:36:13 < jpa-> e.g. 0603 10µF would probably be fine
2024-09-08T08:56:41 < octorian> I guess the uncertainty is that the datasheets and other docs make absolutely no mention of any specs besides raw value and ESR.
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2024-09-08T09:06:23 < jpa-> what other specs would you want?
2024-09-08T09:15:34 < octorian> If I want to BOM consolidate, my options would likely be a 10uF 0805, or 2x2.2uF 0603.  Just not sure how safe/risky either is to try.
2024-09-08T09:16:05 < octorian> (don't see many reference designs out there with BOM data, and as I said, the Nucleo-64 boards all use a 4.7uF 1206)
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2024-09-08T13:32:21 < jpa-> octorian: either will work fine
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2024-09-08T15:07:36 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.poast.org/pic/media%2FGWlbSm_XsAA36E8.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
2024-09-08T15:11:26 < Steffanx> ok
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2024-09-08T15:47:46 < Laurenceb_> anyone here ever used variacs?
2024-09-08T15:48:03  * Laurenceb_ wonders if they need to be worn in to stop brushes overheating
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2024-09-08T19:47:49 < jbo> moin
2024-09-08T20:12:12 -!- nerozero [~nerozero@87.253.63.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
2024-09-08T20:46:45 < jpa-> https://www.reddit.com/r/Finland/comments/1fc2zss/recently_moved_to_finland_happiest_country_on/
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2024-09-08T21:04:37 < Steffanx> Sounds about right jpa- . 
2024-09-08T21:05:02 < jpa-> yeah
2024-09-08T21:29:12 < Steffanx> Are Finnish beaches really that bad?
2024-09-08T21:38:02 -!- dhiegov [~dhiegov@gateway/vpn/pia/dhiegov] has joined ##stm32
2024-09-08T21:40:51 < jbo> CubeMX can now generate CMake
2024-09-08T21:45:02 < Steffanx> Yes Mr jbo 
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2024-09-08T22:00:53 < jpa-> Steffanx: not really, but helsinki beaches probably are
2024-09-08T22:06:32 < BrainDamage> beaches are littered here too with cigarette buttes
2024-09-08T22:06:39 < BrainDamage> but they are heavily used
2024-09-08T22:06:47 < BrainDamage> butts*
2024-09-08T22:07:05 < jbo> they wouldn't be butts if they wouldn't be heavily used
2024-09-08T22:07:19 < jbo> imagine just littering with unused cigarettes
2024-09-08T22:26:27 < Steffanx> That's what i imagine swiss beaches to be like, jbo 
2024-09-08T22:26:40 < jbo> we don't heave beaches, we only have bitches
2024-09-08T22:26:50 < Steffanx> and jbo.
2024-09-08T22:27:13 < jbo> I'm the uber bitch
2024-09-08T22:27:20 < Steffanx> true
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2024-09-08T23:02:41 < BrainDamage> I meant that that the beaches are heavily used, not the cigarettes
2024-09-08T23:04:37 < Steffanx> im sure jbo knew what you meant
2024-09-08T23:07:55 < jbo> :>
2024-09-08T23:08:59 < BrainDamage> I mean, jbo has also been heavily used
2024-09-08T23:21:25 < jbo> are you suggesting that I'm a little slut?
2024-09-08T23:40:45 < BrainDamage> heavens, no, I am suggesting you're a big slut
2024-09-08T23:48:08 < jbo> outrageous
2024-09-08T23:48:10 < specing> lol
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--- Day changed ma syys 09 2024
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2024-09-09T09:01:50 < ventYl> O_o
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2024-09-09T13:25:28 < jbo> greetings, people
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2024-09-09T13:44:31 < karlp> morning
2024-09-09T13:46:23 < Steffanx> Gooday all
2024-09-09T13:46:52 < jbo> is everybody having an awesome time?
2024-09-09T13:49:49 < karlp> sun is shining, music is playing. can't complain :)
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2024-09-09T13:59:02 < jbo> happy to hear that :)
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2024-09-09T14:40:43 < qyx> hello sunshines
2024-09-09T14:40:51 < jbo> :*
2024-09-09T14:45:10 < karlp> ok, moving the SOF frame adjust by -1 fixes all the beagle timing errors, but is really  just squelching noise.
2024-09-09T14:53:59 < zyp> what are you working on today?
2024-09-09T14:54:52 < karlp> same shit
2024-09-09T14:55:24 < karlp> slowly wading through getting tinyusb to work on "khci" / "chipidea_fs_otg"
2024-09-09T14:55:44 < karlp> refreshing my brain on what's meant to be happening, trying to get good7bad comparisons.
2024-09-09T14:56:27 < karlp> thankfully, latest datacenter runs just fine for me on linux.  I used to hav eserious problems with it, and ended up running it in a vm, which always seemed super flaky
2024-09-09T15:01:54 < zyp> heh
2024-09-09T15:02:20 < zyp> I'm not sure I ever tried it on linux, but I've never had any issues running it on macos
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2024-09-09T16:49:36 < jbo> ugfx pros, why is my button not sending events?
2024-09-09T16:52:01 < Steffanx> You are not pressing it. or your touchscreen doesnt work
2024-09-09T16:53:21 < Steffanx> or you're using steffanx-wm with transparency and your z-index is wrong.
2024-09-09T17:07:57 < jpa-> you can't use buttons in ugfx unless you sign the special NDA and EULA  (nipple disclosure agreement and extreme undressing lad's agreement)
2024-09-09T17:08:44 < ventYl> am I reading it wrong, or kuba simply dumps some portion of CubeH7 into project directory and calls it a day?
2024-09-09T17:11:40 < Steffanx> it can do that, yes
2024-09-09T17:12:19 < Steffanx> and generates the wonderful init code ofcourse, ventYl 
2024-09-09T17:14:10  * jbo jabs jpa- 
2024-09-09T17:21:00 < Steffanx> First ##stm32 kill of the day
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2024-09-09T18:07:17 < karlp> hrm.  tinyusb's host examples are odd. the "simple" one that just reads device info asserts on first attach.  the "bare api" one asserts on first attach, but some of the more complicated ones just run just fine, re-attach, over and over, zero problems.
2024-09-09T18:20:25 < ventYl> Steffanx: I hoped for some linker file and just a subset of HAL for my configured devices. apparently my expectations were set too high.
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2024-09-09T19:15:49 < Steffanx> Ventyl: How so? It can give you that... A Linkerscript and the HAL code of the peripheral you configured (or it "needs" for some reason)
2024-09-09T19:25:53 < ventYl> Steffanx: is that generated directly by kubamx, or I have to launch ewarm to get the linker script? I've only seen a bunch of sources, headers and some ewarm configuration files.
2024-09-09T19:29:28 < Steffanx> Ewarm what?
2024-09-09T19:31:25 < Steffanx> oh i dont know what cubemx does
2024-09-09T19:36:05  * ventYl confused
2024-09-09T19:37:06 < Steffanx> Isn't it wonderful? https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/vAe1I7MN/image.png
2024-09-09T19:38:23 < Steffanx> and the drivers it thinks it need when usart and spi are configured: https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/oPwOTn78/image.png
2024-09-09T19:39:15 < Steffanx> (this is just cubemx configured to generate a Makefile etc.)
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2024-09-09T19:40:09 < ventYl> ok, so I did not configure mx properly
2024-09-09T19:40:37 < ventYl> mine is missing startup*.s and STM32*.ld
2024-09-09T19:40:40 < ventYl> and Makefile
2024-09-09T19:41:40 < Steffanx> i guess
2024-09-09T19:41:49 < Steffanx> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/kZZBANFv/image.png
2024-09-09T19:41:59 < Steffanx> Yes, i stored you under My Documents :P
2024-09-09T19:42:14 < ventYl> ah, OK, so ewarm is the default output, that's why there is no linker script
2024-09-09T19:43:05 < Steffanx> A wonderful default... a tool no one uses. I mean, probably less users than those of the other options.
2024-09-09T19:43:33 < ventYl> when I first seen it (in another project months ago) I had to google WTF is it
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2024-09-09T20:01:28 < fenugrec> probably default because alphabetic sorting...
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2024-09-09T20:54:24 < machinehum> Does anyone know what determines the order of how buildin modules get probed?
2024-09-09T20:54:32 < machinehum> builtin
2024-09-09T20:55:01 < machinehum> The fact that I can't really find much of an answer means I probably shouldn't have to care
2024-09-09T20:56:33 < fenugrec> if varying build order breaks stuff, you're dependency'ing wrong
2024-09-09T20:58:13 < machinehum> Yeah that's what I figured
2024-09-09T20:59:07 < jpa-> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/11642330/what-is-the-linux-built-in-driver-load-order
2024-09-09T21:00:50 < jbo> stop canading
2024-09-09T21:01:27 < machinehum> lol
2024-09-09T21:01:36 < fenugrec> who's canada'ing
2024-09-09T21:01:41 < machinehum> me
2024-09-09T21:02:09 < machinehum> I stumbled onto the makefile order thing, but I figure if your fucking with that your're doing something wrong
2024-09-09T21:02:32 < ventYl> fenugrec: I wouldn't underestimate corporate culture. EWARM is the best because you can buy support for it.
2024-09-09T21:03:07 < fenugrec> ventYl ah well, they missed an opportunity to name themselves ACME Compiler
2024-09-09T21:07:42 < ventYl> and yeah, if it was by alphabetic order, CMake would be the first
2024-09-09T21:07:48 < ventYl> but that wouldn't obviously work :)
2024-09-09T21:08:06 < ventYl> too many people mumbling too loud
2024-09-09T21:08:56 < machinehum> initcall is interesting though
2024-09-09T21:10:17 < machinehum> ty jpa- 
2024-09-09T21:11:56 < jpa-> glad to be your google
2024-09-09T21:12:16 < Steffanx> Are there more things you want to be jpa- ?
2024-09-09T21:12:34 < jbo> cuddling with jbo <3
2024-09-09T21:13:06 < jpa-> Steffanx: i could be your siri, if you want
2024-09-09T21:14:44 < Steffanx> Can I take a rain check jpa- ?
2024-09-09T21:15:13 < jbo> jpa- what's the current weather in helsinki?
2024-09-09T21:15:50 < jpa-> dunno, i don't care about helsinki weather
2024-09-09T21:17:14 < jbo> bad siri, bad
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2024-09-09T23:20:12 < machinehum> https://pastebin.com/raw/6ZYeCu9J
2024-09-09T23:21:09 < machinehum> Seems as though my order issue is still there, mmc0 is my radio while mmc1 is my sd card (rootfs)
2024-09-09T23:21:52 < machinehum> rtw_8723ds driver (radio) is looking for the firmware before mmcblk1 is mounted
2024-09-09T23:22:49 < machinehum> I guess I can use the radio firmware as a module
2024-09-09T23:34:49 < ventYl> machinehum: you should be able to stuff radio firmware into initramfs
2024-09-09T23:34:55 < ventYl> that's what desktops routinely do
2024-09-09T23:37:57 < machinehum> Smart
2024-09-09T23:38:07 < machinehum> I wonder if there's a buildroot option for that
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2024-09-09T23:43:28 < ventYl> and if bootloader doesn't support loading of initramfs, it used to be possible to inline it into kernel image. maybe still is
--- Day changed ti syys 10 2024
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2024-09-10T02:00:59 < qyx> my gitpython/git combo broke, much sad
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2024-09-10T02:47:11 < jbo> the life of python
2024-09-10T02:57:34 < qyx> any idea about github not supporting ..note:: in RST?
2024-09-10T02:58:05 < qyx> (there was apparently a whole big affair wrt. md/rst support and renderers in the past)
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2024-09-10T04:21:51 < fenugrec> musics https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ73CrTSg8A
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2024-09-10T12:22:44 < karlp> oh king gizzard, cool.
2024-09-10T12:44:03 < jbo> guten morgen
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2024-09-10T16:11:12 < karlp> fuck kinetis so hard.
2024-09-10T16:11:35 < karlp> what revision do I have? what errata sheet applies? fuck you, read this strange numbers off our die, look up separate errata sheets for each one.
2024-09-10T16:12:06 < karlp> also: USBTRC0 bit 6 is "reserved, but be 0" for k64/k66/k70, but "reserved, must be written to one by software" for kl25....
2024-09-10T16:12:17 < karlp> lets find out if it's causing problems for me being set...
2024-09-10T16:13:25 < karlp> also, the final target cpu has an errata that the "reset the usb periph" bit doens't work properly, and you should rewrite registers of concern to the desired reset states manually.
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2024-09-10T16:19:49 < ventYl> and some of erratas are not even recorded
2024-09-10T16:21:05 < karlp> undoubtably
2024-09-10T16:23:08 < ventYl> when implementing LTC, I've seen random register corruption / erase which was not documented
2024-09-10T16:24:16 < karlp> LTC?
2024-09-10T16:25:06 < karlp> yesterday I had example code that ran over and over again, plug/unplug/plug/unplug no problems. today same code reguarlyl hits asserts.
2024-09-10T16:25:11 < ventYl> low power trusted cryptography
2024-09-10T16:25:12 < karlp> it's so encouraging.
2024-09-10T16:25:19 < ventYl> periperal on some kinetic MCUs
2024-09-10T16:25:22 < ventYl> MKL81 has it
2024-09-10T16:26:07 < ventYl> I thought I left comments in the code to not try to do certain actions. Poor anyone who tries to optimize register moves after me.
2024-09-10T16:27:56 < ventYl> Indeed I did: https://github.com/ventZl/omnia_hw_ctrl/blob/mkl-trng/src/platform/mkl/ltc.c#L32
2024-09-10T17:48:13 < karlp> well, i've found some way out of bounds array indexing, so is it a) "clever", or b) a bug....
2024-09-10T17:48:20  * karlp returns to the ref manual again :)
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2024-09-10T18:32:27 < ventYl> so, I managed to compile my creepy rtos for H7 using kuba-generated template and HAL
2024-09-10T18:48:04 < Steffanx> Time to make it a middleware/extension pack for the cube ventYl 
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2024-09-10T19:08:36 < emeb_mac> more fun on H5xx - tried using the DAC w/ HAL init API and it hardfaulted. Turns out the HAL DAC init code accesses PACKAGE_BASE to determine what kind of part you're running. 
2024-09-10T19:10:04 < emeb_mac> this fails if the icache is enabled because it's a RO register in AHB space that's marked as cacheable. So if you want cache and need to access those regs (includes UID and Flash info regs) then you have to turn on MPU and disable that region.
2024-09-10T19:10:23 < emeb_mac> And CubeMX doesn't know this, so any init code you generate that way will not work.
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2024-09-10T20:59:27 < Ecco> Hey, you guys know of that conductive silicone that's in zebra connectors?
2024-09-10T20:59:35 < Ecco> (it's some silicone with some carbon particle I think)
2024-09-10T20:59:43 < Ecco> Do you know what is its conductivity?
2024-09-10T21:00:53 < zyp> have you tried looking up a data sheet?
2024-09-10T21:01:06 < Ecco> well, I haven't found a datasheet of those :)
2024-09-10T21:01:22 < Ecco> But it's a good idea. Do you know of a reputable manufacturer of those?
2024-09-10T21:02:02 < zyp> https://www.te.com/commerce/DocumentDelivery/DDEController?Action=srchrtrv&DocNm=3-1773443-0&DocType=DS&DocLang=&s_cid=1046 perhaps
2024-09-10T21:02:23 < Ecco> Thanks!
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--- Day changed ke syys 11 2024
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2024-09-11T02:39:53 < fenugrec> suggestions for single-user (=offline) software for managing tasks/todos ? Can't find much between basic todolists and full-on project management stuff that need a server backend etc
2024-09-11T02:40:38 < specing> fenugrec: Emacs org-mode?
2024-09-11T02:41:35 < fenugrec> specing unfortunately I don't have enough brain processing left to learn emacs, I already invested in vim
2024-09-11T02:42:14 < specing> fenugrec: in its basic form its like markdown that folds/expands on demand
2024-09-11T02:42:29 < specing> in advanced, it has a spreadsheet engine and you can have inline scripts
2024-09-11T02:57:19 < fenugrec> eh, looks a lot like just editing a raw text file, with more steps...
2024-09-11T03:28:16 < qyx> I am using markor (android foss) in todo mode
2024-09-11T03:28:33 < qyx> basically text editing but it has some features on top of it
2024-09-11T03:29:34 < qyx> also, all my attempts to do proper time/todo management failed for me
2024-09-11T04:08:32 < lemmi> fenugrec: there's also taskwarrior
2024-09-11T04:43:20 < fenugrec> qyx ah I actually use markor already but never tried its todo mode, thanks for the reminder
2024-09-11T04:51:12 < fenugrec> lemmi hm, feature set seems like what I'm looking for, that's a lot of typing though. Wonder if it does tab-completion. Will look at the 'vit' frontend for it, too
2024-09-11T04:51:48 < lemmi> taskwarrior is weird. does a lot of things right, but sometimes features really are too many keystrokes away. 
2024-09-11T04:52:11 < lemmi> but it can work well and obviously you can script and build stuff around it
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2024-09-11T09:56:34 < qyx> good morning
2024-09-11T09:56:37 < qyx> how's innovation going
2024-09-11T09:58:04 < qyx> python3-serial, suggested packages python3-wxgtk3.0  | python3-wxgtk
2024-09-11T09:58:06 < qyx> why debian, why
2024-09-11T09:58:54 < jpa-> because https://github.com/pyserial/pyserial/blob/master/examples/wxTerminal.py
2024-09-11T10:00:18 < Steffanx> Thanks siri- :)
2024-09-11T10:00:28 < qyx> if kicad didn't exists I would say wx is dead
2024-09-11T10:00:46 < qyx> I used it back in 2006/7 with wxLua
2024-09-11T10:02:05 < jpa-> lots of small stuff uses wx
2024-09-11T10:02:18 < jpa-> at least more users than libreoffice's VCL :)
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2024-09-11T10:18:00 < jpa-> ok, time for kicad 8
2024-09-11T10:23:37 < qyx> o/ \o
2024-09-11T10:41:10 < qyx> strlcat() finally in string.h?
2024-09-11T11:34:51 < mawk> what do you mean finally qyx 
2024-09-11T11:35:16 < mawk> it's in libbsd anyway
2024-09-11T11:35:37 < qyx> yes that's finally
2024-09-11T11:35:58 < qyx> no my gcc complains it is in string.h
2024-09-11T11:36:56 < mawk> the prototype is in string.h yes
2024-09-11T11:36:56 < qyx> /usr/lib/arm-none-eabi/include# grep strlcpy *
2024-09-11T11:36:56 < qyx> grep: bits: Is a directory
2024-09-11T11:37:00 < mawk> but the symbol is in libbsd
2024-09-11T11:37:08 < qyx> hm
2024-09-11T11:38:46 < qyx> no in newlib libc.a
2024-09-11T11:39:07 < qyx> idk, there was something weird with it and I don't remember what was it
2024-09-11T11:40:14 < mawk> well newlib is different
2024-09-11T11:40:19 < mawk> it's in newlib yes
2024-09-11T11:40:30 < mawk> but not in the linux libc
2024-09-11T11:40:47 < mawk> so it will run on your mcu but not on your pc if you try to do unit tests for instance
2024-09-11T11:40:53 < mawk> and you'd need to link with libbsd for that
2024-09-11T11:44:34 < qyx> I am not even remotely considering running unit tests using a different toolchain
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2024-09-11T12:33:55 < karlp> TIL about TPD3S014 and TPD3S044.  usb esd port protection _and_ port power switching in the same device.
2024-09-11T12:34:02 < karlp> (no overcurrent flag though)
2024-09-11T13:03:35 < mawk> why qyx 
2024-09-11T13:03:41 < mawk> how do you run unit tests
2024-09-11T13:03:54 < mawk> you don't have them?????????
2024-09-11T13:04:06 < mawk> the toolchain should absolutely not matter for unit tests
2024-09-11T13:04:21 < mawk> if they do, you're writing them wrong
2024-09-11T13:05:58 < mawk> you need to be able to 1) run functions individually, including static functions and 2) mock function calls external to the translation unit you're currently testing
2024-09-11T13:06:06 < mawk> it's basically impossible to do that on-device
2024-09-11T13:18:04 < jbo> did somebody say BSD?
2024-09-11T13:18:28 < jbo> +1 for decent unit tests
2024-09-11T13:18:34 < jbo> also: hallo
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2024-09-11T13:40:29 < mawk> I modified cmock to be able to test static stuff
2024-09-11T13:40:33 < mawk> and it works perfectly
2024-09-11T13:40:45 < mawk> calls to other parts of the application are mocked, calls to the libc go through
2024-09-11T13:41:03 < mawk> and I can assert anything I want including static variables
2024-09-11T13:41:23 < mawk> it works even with mildly complex stuff like return arguments in functions
2024-09-11T13:41:52 < mawk> like void f(const char *input, char output[256])
2024-09-11T13:49:56 < zyp> how did you get it to do static stuff?
2024-09-11T13:52:24 < mawk> I disabled its weird automatic detection of what's under test; and then in my test_blah,c file I do #include "blah.c"
2024-09-11T13:52:30 < mawk> so everything in blah.c is accessible for testing
2024-09-11T13:52:56 < mawk> and above that you do #include "mock_xxx.h" which will automatically mock everything coming from the #include "xxx.h" that is in "blah.c"
2024-09-11T13:53:48 < mawk> my changelog on cmock: # - Added support for the SCRIPTS_DIR environment variable # - Added support for the EXTRA_SRC_DIRS environment variable # - Removed building of the module auto-detected from the testcase name # - Add support for changing the Unity CFLAGS (i.e. to enable double-precision support) # - Fixed the file name prefix bug
2024-09-11T13:54:06 < mawk> the most important one is " Removed building of the module auto-detected from the testcase name"
2024-09-11T13:55:00 < zyp> so you're making a header just for testing with prototypes of static functions you want to mock?
2024-09-11T13:55:44 < zyp> are you running this under ceedling, or some other way?
2024-09-11T13:56:15 < mawk> basically replacing the files create_mock.rb and create_makefile.rb with these two: https://paste.debian.net/1329047/ https://paste.debian.net/1329048/
2024-09-11T13:56:24 < mawk> running using the builtin thing in cmock
2024-09-11T13:56:32 < mawk> that creates a makefile for you
2024-09-11T13:56:37 < mawk> but I have my own makefile around it
2024-09-11T13:56:44 < mawk> you can probably get it to run with ceedling
2024-09-11T13:57:02 < mawk> no zyp cmock does the mocking automatically
2024-09-11T13:57:07 < mawk> you don't have to make the headers
2024-09-11T13:57:33 < mawk> you just insert #include "mock_stuff.h" in the test file and anything in stuff.h will be mocked 
2024-09-11T13:58:50 < zyp> I'm currently doing a project at work where I'm using ceecling/unity/cmock to add unit tests to a client project, so I'm familiar with the tools
2024-09-11T13:59:08 < mawk> you run the create_makefile.rb script and it will generate a makefile that builds and runs the tests
2024-09-11T13:59:15 < mawk> but integrating it in ceedling is probably a better option
2024-09-11T13:59:20 < BrainDamage> eww, ruby
2024-09-11T13:59:34 < zyp> I fucking hate ceedling
2024-09-11T13:59:38 < mawk> it's parsing C code in ruby with what appears to be regexes
2024-09-11T13:59:40 < zyp> and this shit, overall
2024-09-11T13:59:41 < mawk> but it kinda works
2024-09-11T13:59:52 < zyp> but it also seems like the least bad C unit test framework
2024-09-11T14:00:14 < mawk> yeah
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2024-09-11T14:01:54 < mawk> I didn't try ceedling, my home-cooked makefile works perfec
2024-09-11T14:02:05 < mawk> except when my colleagues run it of course
2024-09-11T14:02:10 < mawk> but that's probably some shit with wsl
2024-09-11T14:02:24 < mawk> just use linux like a real man (such as myself)
2024-09-11T14:02:30 < zyp> client already had some bitrotted ceedling config in the project when I got started
2024-09-11T14:02:52 < mawk> lol
2024-09-11T14:03:13 < zyp> so I looked around if there were any other unit test frameworks that seemed more promising, but came up short
2024-09-11T14:03:38 < mawk> well cmock in itself works fine, I suppose your problems come from this ceedling stuff
2024-09-11T14:03:59 < mawk> the core job of cmock is intercepting calls to functions in other TUs to mock them, and it does this beautifully
2024-09-11T14:04:22 < mawk> then there's this old create_makefile.rb script that's laying around in their repo that might be used to collect and run the tests, and that's what I use; and you use ceedling instead to do that
2024-09-11T14:06:48 < zyp> to be honest, what I hate the most is probably retrofitting unit tests into a project written without testability in mind
2024-09-11T14:06:52 < mawk> I can also give you my main makefile, which is just a wrapper against cmock's create_makefile.rb but in a nice way 
2024-09-11T14:07:02 < mawk> yeah
2024-09-11T14:07:14 < mawk> well that's what mocking is for, testing stuff written without dependency injection in mind
2024-09-11T14:07:26 < mawk> the code under test should ideally not matter too much, unless it's really ugly and not modular at all
2024-09-11T14:07:41 < mawk> but dependency injection is not really meant for C; and unit testing C in general is hard
2024-09-11T14:07:50 < zyp> yeah
2024-09-11T14:08:02 < zyp> writing test cases in C is also annoying
2024-09-11T14:08:23 < zyp> did you see the tests I wrote for smolt? they run in pytest
2024-09-11T14:08:32 < zyp> e.g. https://github.com/zyp/smolt/blob/main/tests/cpp/test_serializers.py
2024-09-11T14:09:16 < mawk> my makefile, works for a stm32 project and includes an example for building a library (liblcd): https://paste.debian.net/1329049/
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2024-09-11T14:09:40 < mawk> ah no, very nice
2024-09-11T14:12:43 < mawk> I based it on this example: https://github.com/ThrowTheSwitch/CMock/blob/master/examples/make_example/Makefile
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2024-09-11T20:45:58 < vampirefrog> I'm looking at a black pill, has a STM32F401CCU6 on it
2024-09-11T20:46:09 < vampirefrog> it's not clear which version of the USB core it has
2024-09-11T20:46:14 < vampirefrog> is it the same as on the F103?
2024-09-11T20:46:57 < jpa-> doubt it
2024-09-11T20:47:14 < vampirefrog> F401: "USB 2.0 full-speed device/host/OTG controller with on-chip PHY"
2024-09-11T20:47:26 < vampirefrog> F103: "USB 2.0 full-speed interface"
2024-09-11T20:47:29 < jpa-> so, it is OTGFS while F103 is just the usb device
2024-09-11T20:47:52 < vampirefrog> F407: "USB 2.0 full-speed device/host/OTG controller with on-chip PHY" and "USB 2.0 high-speed/full-speed device/host/OTG controller with dedicated DMA, on-chip full-speed PHY and ULPI"
2024-09-11T20:48:06 < vampirefrog> so it has to be the same core as on the 407, but without the extra ULPI capable core
2024-09-11T20:48:15 < jpa-> yeah
2024-09-11T20:48:26 < vampirefrog> that's kinda cool tho
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2024-09-11T20:49:01 < vampirefrog> https://www.ebay.com/itm/203070854856
2024-09-11T20:49:09 < vampirefrog> that's him, officer
2024-09-11T21:16:12 < vampirefrog> what's up with these dual core micros, how does that work?
2024-09-11T21:16:27 < vampirefrog> is it like one of the cores is assigned to boot, and the other one sleeps until you activate it?
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2024-09-11T21:32:27 < vampirefrog> btw that pcb in the ebay listing has no through holes, you can probably assemble the whole thing with a hot plate
2024-09-11T21:32:45 < vampirefrog> well, no through hole components I mean
2024-09-11T21:35:20 < antto> https://i.ytimg.com/vi/J_evWNVWIYc/maxresdefault.jpg
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2024-09-11T23:09:00 < vampirefrog> das cool
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2024-09-11T23:52:30 < englishman> looks neat, can you link the video
--- Day changed to syys 12 2024
2024-09-12T00:10:20 < antto> no, but i suspect the video "code" is that long "crap" in the middle of the URL
2024-09-12T00:11:12 < antto> yeah.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_evWNVWIYc
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2024-09-12T00:19:07 < Laurenceb_> sup
2024-09-12T00:19:38  * Laurenceb_ has a problem, how to detect if a protective earth clamp is connected to an inverter under test...
2024-09-12T00:22:39 < Laurenceb_> inverters enter the tester from one side on a forklift, I dont want to make an interlocked gate for the forklift...
2024-09-12T00:23:28 < Laurenceb_> so there is personell access from one side, which allows the chassis to be touched, so earth clamp needs to be connected at all times for safety
2024-09-12T00:24:08 < Laurenceb_> current best ideas are: two spring loaded earth clamps, one is just there to test continuity to ground, and operates the interlock
2024-09-12T00:24:29 < Laurenceb_> but it can fail if they are damaged by a forklift and are shorting against each other...
2024-09-12T00:27:04 < Laurenceb_> another idea: the floor of the test cell is ESD safe, so earth clamp impedance to ground could be tested (should be <~1Meg), but that involves some sort of test device connected to earth strap that is isolated during the test, maybe a low voltage gas discharge tube could be used...
2024-09-12T00:27:34 < Laurenceb_> could also fail if someone drops the test clamp onto the floor (likely)
2024-09-12T00:27:41 < qyx> ESD safe doesn't mean <1 M
2024-09-12T00:27:53 < qyx> only the resistors used to ground ESD safe floor are 1 M
2024-09-12T00:27:55 < Laurenceb_> it does on our particular floor
2024-09-12T00:28:12 < qyx> then something is wrong because it is not human safe
2024-09-12T00:28:42 < Laurenceb_> interesting
2024-09-12T00:28:52 < qyx> it should be 10e7 to 10e9
2024-09-12T00:29:00 < Laurenceb_> ok
2024-09-12T00:29:01 < qyx> unless it is for some reason literally conductive
2024-09-12T00:29:10 < qyx> but I have not seen that
2024-09-12T00:29:41 < Laurenceb_> it wasnt put in by pros - just some min wage guy with conductive resin and copper foil tape
2024-09-12T00:30:23 < qyx> hm internet says there is that possibility to be <10e6
2024-09-12T00:30:43 < Laurenceb_> for a moment I thought I had solved it with gas discharge tube based "isolation" of the strap and imedance test
2024-09-12T00:30:58 < Laurenceb_> but it fails by simply dropping the strap onto the floor, doh
2024-09-12T00:32:42 < qyx> what about two short straps such that they cannot touch?
2024-09-12T00:33:15 < qyx> (of course the inverter has to have nonzero size)
2024-09-12T00:33:58 < Laurenceb_> yeah that would work - have both isolated with GDTs and inject a singal from one to the other
2024-09-12T00:35:23 < Laurenceb_> but twice the work for the operator...
2024-09-12T00:35:55 < qyx> have a metal table and hang one strap from above?
2024-09-12T00:36:10 < Laurenceb_> yeah might work
2024-09-12T00:36:13  * Laurenceb_ is acceptance testing Shinkansen inverters
2024-09-12T00:36:26 < Laurenceb_> these things are huge
2024-09-12T00:36:33 < qyx> how huge?
2024-09-12T00:36:40 < qyx> would a shelf not work?
2024-09-12T00:36:42 < Laurenceb_> 2.5 x 1.5 x 0.75m
2024-09-12T00:36:48 < qyx> ok would not
2024-09-12T00:36:52 < qyx> curtains not enough,
2024-09-12T00:37:05 < qyx> ?
2024-09-12T00:37:17 < Laurenceb_> usually 32 IGBTs inside and lots of alu heatsinks
2024-09-12T00:37:35 < qyx> I mean light curtains on the perimeter
2024-09-12T00:37:44 < Laurenceb_> maybe... at the moment we just have warning signs at the entrance and light + siren
2024-09-12T00:38:02 < qyx> or simply a cage with a lockable door
2024-09-12T00:39:16 < Laurenceb_> maybe I can restrain the cable so it cant drop onto the floor, then original idea might work
2024-09-12T00:40:01 < Laurenceb_> hyperboss is getting stressed about risk of workplace accidents... to be fair this kit is very dangerous
2024-09-12T00:43:08 < specing> Laurenceb_: just 32 IGBTs?
2024-09-12T00:43:11 < specing> how large are they
2024-09-12T00:43:47 < Laurenceb_> approx 100 x 200 mm footprint
2024-09-12T00:44:19 < qyx> what input voltage?
2024-09-12T00:44:22 < specing> 10x20cm... that's huge... basically two IGBTs per wafer?
2024-09-12T00:44:57 < Laurenceb_> its a multi die module, each die is <30mm square
2024-09-12T00:44:59 < specing> wait.. are these made from wafers like other semis?
2024-09-12T00:45:07 < specing> ah
2024-09-12T00:45:08 < qyx> was just about to ask
2024-09-12T00:45:17 < qyx> you could probably mill them on a cnc
2024-09-12T00:46:00 < qyx> BrainDamage: ^
2024-09-12T00:46:08 < Laurenceb_> they are really annoying to install, I've broken three of them so far
2024-09-12T00:46:23 < qyx> expecting some entertaining real world inputs on large transistor cnc milling
2024-09-12T00:46:28 < Laurenceb_> the dies will crack if you torque the bolts incorrectly
2024-09-12T00:47:06 < Laurenceb_> we have unironicalled cnc milled some of the dies off on test igbts
2024-09-12T00:47:56 < Laurenceb_> three igbts = good fraction of my annual wage...
2024-09-12T00:48:06 < specing> ahaha I was about to say
2024-09-12T00:50:13 < Laurenceb_> usually the dies on a wafer are cut out then binned, and each igbt is made using dies from the same bin
2024-09-12T00:52:09 < Laurenceb_> the inverter tested due mid or quarter life stress testing on the whole inverter to attempt to identify any pre failure igbts, if any are found then they are swapped out for new
2024-09-12T00:52:19 < Laurenceb_> *does mid or quarter life
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2024-09-12T00:55:38 < Laurenceb_> if an igbt fails in service at max power you usually lose at least 3 neighbours and a heatsink as the failure is v high energy
2024-09-12T00:57:10 < Laurenceb_> pieces of shrapnel have gone ~30mm into alu alloy parts
2024-09-12T00:57:22 < specing> 0.o
2024-09-12T01:02:11 < Laurenceb_> this looks okish https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/gas-discharge-tubes/7687480
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2024-09-12T09:58:17 < qyx> apparently the new spam keyword now is "pegasus"
2024-09-12T09:58:35 < qyx> but they should be more creative with my passwords
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2024-09-12T13:39:01 < qyx> any idea why H7 is not entering the bootloader when empty?
2024-09-12T14:01:27 < karlp> because h7 predates g0 or whatever that started that behaviour?
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2024-09-12T14:44:21 < karlp> so, millis() on the board says it's sending out a usb request at 5373, then 5379 ms. (so, ~6ms between)  beagle says its ~200ms between.
2024-09-12T14:44:50 < karlp> I wonder if board millis is actually correct....
2024-09-12T14:59:49 < ventYl> if you hit the clock rate for which it is calculated, then it is :>
2024-09-12T15:01:41 < zyp> make sure you're comparing the right timestamps in beagle, if you're looking at aggregates you might get the timestamps for when the requests were finished, not started
2024-09-12T15:02:42 < zyp> so if the host is doing a request that gets answered immediately and then another request 6ms later that takes almost 200ms to get answered, you can see numbers like this
2024-09-12T15:05:27 < zyp> in other words: if you're looking at timings, you'll want to expand the capture to see the individual packets
2024-09-12T15:44:24 < karlp> well, doing blink 1000ms and eyeballingn is pretty close, so I think that's ok.
2024-09-12T15:45:17 < karlp> for the latter, I've seen this where the transfer is broken, so that's... ok: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/00h0Q.png
2024-09-12T15:48:22 < karlp> but I'm seeing it on "good" transactions like this: https://imgur.com/a/7CslNax
2024-09-12T15:50:04 < zyp> wtf is a keepalive? I've done almost no LS captures :)
2024-09-12T15:53:05 < zyp> ah, LS sends an EOP as a keepalive instead of SOF tokens
2024-09-12T15:58:30 < karlp> yeah, LS thing.
2024-09-12T15:59:00 < karlp> I've been able to adjust the soffrmadjust thing by a tick or too to mostly get those errors to go away, but it seems largely to be informative from beagle, not anything that actually matters.
2024-09-12T15:59:43 < karlp> normally you get ~2000 keppalives batched together on one to let you know it's still alive, it's only spammy when it decides the timing isn't flawless.
2024-09-12T16:00:15 < karlp> I've fixed some _bugs_ in this so far, but they all seem be "lol, whatever, that wasn't the problem" so far.
2024-09-12T16:00:24 < karlp> feels like it's getting closer though.
2024-09-12T16:00:49 < karlp> going to go back to the vendor shit, I'm pretty sure they're handling sof thresholds completely differently from what I can see.
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2024-09-12T16:59:17 < karlp> meh, altium web view doens't let you see the commit sha's of commits.
2024-09-12T16:59:56 < karlp> so it happily places them on the board automagically, but no way to look them up without "storage manager" in the desktop version.  and that tool is borked in the head and cant' follow moves somehow.
2024-09-12T17:00:31 < karlp> so the history view shows all the commits, but the storage manager only shows one, and we've got git revs you cant' find :)
2024-09-12T17:00:36 < karlp> pro software
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2024-09-12T17:15:44 < ventYl> that's just a mode of IBM Rational Team Concert emulation
2024-09-12T17:20:39 < ventYl> it also contained IDs of commits, but it was almost impossible to get them
2024-09-12T17:21:00 < ventYl> also, commit IDs had the same namespace as "checkpoint" IDs, so it was impossible to tell commit from checkpoint
2024-09-12T17:21:47 < ventYl> jenkins was apparently the only tool that provided any automation and even it was only partially working
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2024-09-12T23:39:05 < jbo> meow
2024-09-12T23:44:21 < polprog> i played a little bit with the ch32 chips and i have a feeling it's just an STM32 with a RISC-V core instead of ARM
2024-09-12T23:44:37 < polprog> the programming interface is the same, the block names are the same, the architecture feels the same too
2024-09-12T23:49:59 < sauce> bet the errata are cooler
2024-09-12T23:55:38 < zyp> haven't used ch32, but that's how gd32v is too
2024-09-12T23:56:06 < zyp> I literally took code I wrote for stm32 and just rebuilt it for risc-v and it ran the same
--- Day changed pe syys 13 2024
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2024-09-13T00:34:37 < upgrdman> is there a name for the type of diagram? https://raw.githubusercontent.com/Ebiroll/esp32_sigrok/master/uart.png   ... im referring to the "<1><1><0> ..." visualization
2024-09-13T00:35:17 < upgrdman> im tempted to call it a "logic analyzer waveform" but there's got to be something better?
2024-09-13T00:36:58 < BrainDamage> the aesthetic derives from eye diagrams, but they are an analog property of the digital tresholds, it's just inspired by them
2024-09-13T00:37:18 < upgrdman> yeah
2024-09-13T00:39:12 < BrainDamage> I would consider them a subset of timing sequence diagrams
2024-09-13T00:39:36 < upgrdman> hmm
2024-09-13T00:39:41 < BrainDamage> usually in datashit they are represented with square waves and amplitude for value
2024-09-13T00:40:22 < upgrdman> yeah my TelemetryViewer program has a way to visualize an enum/boolean like that. i guess i could call it "draw as timing diagram"
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2024-09-13T02:41:48 < fenugrec> upgrdman "timing diagram" yeah. I've used "drawtiming" to generate small diagrams in the datashit style e.g. https://filebin.net/siatpyr5a01ffime
2024-09-13T02:47:04 < upgrdman> nice
2024-09-13T02:55:41 < octorian> Very nice...  (except the "shady download" clicks required to view it).  Shame I don't actually have the need to make any of my own timing diagrams. right now.
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2024-09-13T03:03:55 < upgrdman> octorian, you might like this: https://imgur.com/CEFRw2t
2024-09-13T03:04:11 < upgrdman> i have not used it, but bookmarked it a while ago in case i ever have a need :/
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2024-09-13T03:04:25 < upgrdman> more info and download here: https://wavedrom.com/tutorial.html
2024-09-13T03:05:10 < octorian> There is a timing diagram I'll eventually want to make for the docs of a project I'm working on, but its not a batch of digital signals.  Rather its a value-vs-time graph of a single thing with a fair bit of annotation.
2024-09-13T03:07:12 < fenugrec> octorian shady download what ? on filebin ?
2024-09-13T03:08:22 < octorian> Yeah, felt weird to have to confirm a download of something that could be posted on an image sharing site.
2024-09-13T03:09:20 < fenugrec> oh I may have posted the wrong link. Should've been https://filebin.net/siatpyr5a01ffime/2xPWM_intercal.png , probably the other URL has a generic mime-type that driggers a generic download thing
2024-09-13T03:10:38 < fenugrec> +1 for wavedrom probably, I can' remember why i ended up not using it. IIRC it has a scriptable CLI interface too
2024-09-13T03:30:43 < upgrdman> yeah i bookmarked wavedrom a long time ago. i think it was leeloo pimping it a few years ago, lol
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2024-09-13T04:50:27 < octorian> Anyone here use "heatshrink" before?  https://github.com/atomicobject/heatshrink/
2024-09-13T04:51:07 < octorian> I just stumbled across it today, and while the project seems very stale, it purports to solve a problem I'm facing at the moment.
2024-09-13T04:52:15 < octorian> Specifically, I want to bundle a bunch of easily-compressed graphics with a bootloader for a project I'm working on, and would very much like to compress them without the code size of a decompressor canceling out the flash savings.
2024-09-13T05:08:24 < qyx> yes, works
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2024-09-13T12:54:01 < karlp> meh, last three days laptop has restarted overnight on some graphics driver crash.
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2024-09-13T13:00:06 < jpa-> client specifies "led free"; i guess i'll make it RoHS and not add any blinky lights :)
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2024-09-13T14:22:15 < mawk> lead is awesome
2024-09-13T14:22:22 < mawk> I don't understand the lead free bullshit
2024-09-13T14:22:25 < mawk> give me more lead
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2024-09-13T15:22:38  * BrainDamage sprinkles mawk's lunch with lead acetate
2024-09-13T15:22:54 < mawk> tasty
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2024-09-13T20:17:13 < jbo> hi all
2024-09-13T20:17:16 < jbo> how is it going?
2024-09-13T20:17:20 < jbo> everybody having a wonderful time?
2024-09-13T20:25:46 < qyx> yes 100 km/h wind gusts and 65 mm of precipitation over the last 24h
2024-09-13T20:25:55 < jbo> 65mm?!
2024-09-13T20:26:09 < qyx> yes
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2024-09-13T20:34:23 < jbo> that's a bit much
2024-09-13T20:39:54 < Steffanx> Nah, don't you like it wet, jbo?
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2024-09-13T21:01:18 < jbo> :*
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--- Day changed la syys 14 2024
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2024-09-14T18:06:17 < octorian>  Well, looks like my thoughts about using heatshrink may end up not being worth it.
2024-09-14T18:06:47 < octorian> The assets I want to compress aren't that big in the first place, so while it does compress it alot, the compressed size plus the code size of the heatshrink decoder doesn't end up with very much savings.
2024-09-14T18:07:44 < octorian> And it looks like I can get the size of this bootloader down far enough by just disabling some library features I don't need anymore, and disabling a bunch of logging code.
2024-09-14T18:07:58 < octorian> (and if I ever need more headroom, I can always hack out more)
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2024-09-14T19:41:43 < qyx> octorian: what sizes are we talking about?
2024-09-14T19:42:06 < qyx> for decompress, mem to mem only, there are some super simple decompressors
2024-09-14T19:42:15 < qyx> 70 lines of code or so
2024-09-14T19:42:49 < octorian> 2072B uncompressed, 793B compressed, heatshrink decompressor compiles to 840B.
2024-09-14T19:43:17 < octorian> Right now I can probably get away without trying to compress this, as long as its the only bit of easily-compressible data I have.
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2024-09-14T19:56:54 < qyx> wat, my bootloader has 64K
2024-09-14T19:57:04 < qyx> not even botherig with 2K
2024-09-14T19:57:34 < octorian> Yeah, when I started down this path I thought I'd have more data to crunch.
2024-09-14T19:59:07 < octorian> When I started the project, I split the 512K of flash into 128K for the bootloader and 384K for the firmware.  I then realized I could easily drop the bootloader to 96K, only to discover that flash sectors wouldn't let me do that.  So now the goal is 64K for the bootloader, and 448K for the firmware.
2024-09-14T19:59:49 < octorian> I initially wanted to add some features to the bootloader that won't fit in 64K, like a file picker for selecting a firmware image to install.  But now I think I have another way of doing that.
2024-09-14T20:00:10 < octorian> Basically put it all in the main firmware, which will write instructions into a known memory block and reset the device.
2024-09-14T20:00:22 < octorian> (while still having a recovery method to handle cases where the main firmware is corrupted)
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2024-09-14T20:34:23 < qyx> yeah I am doing exactky that and using flags in a single backup register to pass info between the two
2024-09-14T20:35:17 < qyx> all firmware upload and selection is done in the app, bootloader only authenticates the images, flashes to the main flash and runs it
2024-09-14T20:37:53 < octorian> I'd probably need a little more space that that, since I need to indicate the device and file path.  But that's the idea.
2024-09-14T20:38:15 < octorian> Except in cases where the main firmware is missing or corrupted, in which case I'll fall back to looking for a file with a known "special" name.
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2024-09-14T22:06:11 < qyx> octorian: I do it by trying to access the filesystem, finding a config and reading the "last known working" firmware and flashing it
2024-09-14T22:06:36 < qyx> if it fails, it keeps waiting in the CLI, xmodem still works
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2024-09-14T22:23:56 < qyx> can any ethernet switch pro (zyp namely) confirm there is no multi-RMII switch in the microchip's portfolio?
2024-09-14T22:24:18 < qyx> and basically the only one is SJA1105?
2024-09-14T22:24:33 < qyx> oh let's talk to my AI friend
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2024-09-14T22:29:07 < qyx> ok he's dumb
2024-09-14T22:39:11 < Steffanx> To confirm your claim i asked the AI too, qyx. I came up with a few nonsense options, but also LAN9353
2024-09-14T22:39:52 < Steffanx> *It
2024-09-14T22:41:31 < zyp> multi? IIRC there's some with two
2024-09-14T22:43:05 < qyx> Steffanx: yes about 7 different vullshits
2024-09-14T22:43:18 < qyx> yeah two are pretty common
2024-09-14T22:43:22 < zyp> and if you count the microsemi ones, they also have a bunch of MIIs
2024-09-14T22:44:16 < Steffanx> Two is multiple :P
2024-09-14T22:44:25 < zyp> hmm, SJA1105 looks nice
2024-09-14T22:44:33 < qyx> yes but it is NXP
2024-09-14T22:44:40 < qyx> so I have some fears
2024-09-14T22:45:08 < qyx> it is also a BGA of the "doable" type
2024-09-14T22:45:58 < qyx> I think I'll risk it with SJA1105
2024-09-14T22:47:01 < qyx> Steffanx: I could connect two over MDI to have a 4 port RMII/MII switch :P
2024-09-14T22:47:28 < Steffanx> So you need > 2 RMII/MII ports up to ... ?
2024-09-14T22:48:09 < qyx> I need 4+ for dual T1S + T1 + bunch of stuff
2024-09-14T22:48:45 < qyx> and for T1L to T1S bridge
2024-09-14T22:49:10 < qyx> although I may autism a bit and use a SPI MAC+PHY for T1L and another one for T1S and switch in software
2024-09-14T22:49:38 < qyx> for a bit of context: I have T1S on the backplane but I want to use T1L for long reach connections between devices
2024-09-14T22:49:43 < zyp> considered using a FPGA? can have as many RMII interfaces as you'd like
2024-09-14T22:49:56 < qyx> yes but I am fpga-dumb
2024-09-14T22:50:09 < qyx> have you considered writing a switch IP?
2024-09-14T22:50:14 < zyp> yes
2024-09-14T22:50:19 < zyp> just considered, so far
2024-09-14T22:50:37 < qyx> oh those are some fairly suprising considerations
2024-09-14T22:50:49 < qyx> I am all in
2024-09-14T22:51:17 < zyp> doesn't seem too hard to do something basic
2024-09-14T22:51:52 < qyx> my most complex fpga design so far was 4 blinky LEDs
2024-09-14T22:52:38 < zyp> I've done blinky leds over ethernet with FPGA :p
2024-09-14T22:53:00 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/sOo86.mp4
2024-09-14T22:56:53 < qyx> what's that
2024-09-14T22:57:16 < zyp> one of the early tests for my poor man's ethercat thing
2024-09-14T22:58:07 < zyp> they're chained together, both exchanges data with a single ethernet frame passing through
2024-09-14T23:00:18 < Steffanx> interesting cheap "dev" board.
2024-09-14T23:00:53 < zyp> can't beat the price if all you need is a fpga with two ethernet ports
2024-09-14T23:01:32 < Steffanx> Yeah exactly
2024-09-14T23:01:33 < zyp> but the one in module form factor are much nicer and not significantly more expensive
2024-09-14T23:01:58 < zyp> like the one I put in the robot arm controller: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/aizay.jpg
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2024-09-14T23:15:59 < qyx> so my ultimate setup for a switching board is 1x SFP, 2x gigabit ethernet on the front panel, 10x SPE on the back panel
2024-09-14T23:16:20 < qyx> *on the backplane
2024-09-14T23:16:36 < qyx> + 1 SPE backplane upstream
2024-09-14T23:16:51 < qyx> lately SPE switches became available
2024-09-14T23:23:00 < qyx> oh LAN9372/3/4 is probably the right choice for that
2024-09-14T23:23:22 < qyx> LAN9373 has 5x SPE, 2x SGMII, 2x RGMII/RMII/MII
2024-09-14T23:23:56 < qyx> so with two I can have 10x SPE, 2x SFP and 2x gogabit ethernet
2024-09-14T23:24:05 < qyx> (one RGMII to cascade them)
2024-09-14T23:31:42 < qyx> ok I am prepared to fail
2024-09-14T23:36:00 < qyx> no datasheet, fuk them
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--- Day changed su syys 15 2024
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2024-09-15T02:56:37 < qyx> reading https://docs.kernel.org/networking/dsa/sja1105.html and becoming sad
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2024-09-15T16:44:33 < Laurenceb_> https://pomf2.lain.la/f/k18tuh1h.MP4
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2024-09-15T17:45:16 < vampirefrog> funny video but crap beat
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2024-09-15T19:49:26 < jbo> I am quite funny myself
2024-09-15T19:50:59 < Steffanx> So are your videos.
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2024-09-15T19:59:43 < jbo> thank you, steffan
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2024-09-15T20:07:22 < Steffanx> You're welcome mr jbo 
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2024-09-16T15:38:08 < jbo> hi all
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2024-09-16T19:15:09 < Steffanx> Gooday sir
2024-09-16T19:16:34 < karlp> has aliexpress removed "stores" from everyone else or is it just me not seeing what theyve done with it?
2024-09-16T19:16:56 < karlp> I can get to a "store" now, but there's no longer any sort of front page, or product categories, just 50 pages of every product a seller sells?
2024-09-16T19:34:15 < Steffanx> Yes I noticed that two. At least with the one item I was looking at
2024-09-16T19:34:23 < jpa-> karlp: stores seem to work for me and when i open the "Products" tab there is a list of categories on left side
2024-09-16T19:34:48 < jpa-> https://vi.aliexpress.com/store/912021200/pages/all-items.html   e.g. here
2024-09-16T19:35:23 < Steffanx> But I clicked on an item on sale on the homepage and wondered if such item has a store
2024-09-16T19:56:59 < karlp> huh. yeah, adding the /pages/all-items.html shows the categories bar and ui, but someshops seemto just not have any anymore?
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2024-09-16T20:30:08 < qyx> when Q8.8 fixed point format denotes 8 bits for fixed, 8 bits for fractional
2024-09-16T20:30:23 < qyx> how do I name a format when all bits are the fractional part?
2024-09-16T20:30:38 < qyx> eg. uint8_t 0 is 0, 255 is 1
2024-09-16T20:30:41 < qyx> Q0.8?
2024-09-16T20:35:21 < jpa-> yes
2024-09-16T20:35:57 < jpa-> except, in Q0.8 255 is 255/256 = 0.996
2024-09-16T20:41:57 < zyp> you can also say Q8
2024-09-16T20:42:43 < zyp> the fun part about Q notation is that there's two common formats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_(number_format)
2024-09-16T20:43:09 < zyp> (difference is whether the sign bit is counted or not)
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2024-09-16T20:47:17 < jpa-> the "fraction of 255" format is also quite common in computer graphics, but i'm not sure if it has any specific name
2024-09-16T20:49:01 < jpa-> apparently "normalized 8-bit integer" is the name
2024-09-16T21:06:18 < qyx> zyp: if I wanted signed, I would most probably say Q7 or something like that?
2024-09-16T21:06:33 < qyx> with Q8 being unsigned
2024-09-16T21:07:04 < zyp> UQ8 for unsigned
2024-09-16T21:07:16 < zyp> and yeah, Q7 would be 8-bit signed
2024-09-16T21:10:54 < qyx> now i am questioning myself why
2024-09-16T21:11:19 < qyx> on a m4f
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2024-09-16T23:51:39 < karlp> my scale runs double float everything on m0+...
2024-09-16T23:51:52 < karlp> yolo, 32bit adcs, fuck the bom cost 
2024-09-16T23:54:43 < vampirefrog> you'll never sink the costs with all that floating
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2024-09-17T00:03:12 < karlp> hold my beer bro :)
2024-09-17T00:03:33 < karlp> anyway, what an interesting product: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007247112902.html
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2024-09-17T09:39:06 < qyx> smoky morning, i just discharged a bunch of poscaps through a scope probe
2024-09-17T09:39:23 < qyx> *sparky
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2024-09-17T12:00:17 < jpa-> are they negcaps now?
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2024-09-17T12:17:28 < zyp> I think it stands for «piece of shit capacitors»
2024-09-17T13:07:41 < qyx> no I probably need a new probe hook
2024-09-17T13:07:51 < qyx> caps are ok, mosfets too
2024-09-17T13:08:06 < qyx> I shorted two phases when attaching to a connector
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2024-09-17T18:39:26 < karlp> 4pm and finally starting the "work" of the day. well done...
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2024-09-17T20:44:02 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/foldersizes.png  uh oh, looks like kid's minecraft folder will overtake my work projects folder in less than a year
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2024-09-17T20:48:34 < jbo> hence I don't have kids
2024-09-17T20:49:02 < jpa-> you base your life choices on such weird reasons
2024-09-17T20:49:37 < jpa-> but at least you are proud like a vegan
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2024-09-17T21:33:16 < zyp> you don't have to go vegan just because you don't like kids
2024-09-17T21:33:26 < zyp> there's plenty other kinds of meat to eat
2024-09-17T21:37:46 < specing> once you've tried kids, you can never go back to other meat
2024-09-17T21:55:56 < Steffanx> With kids you mean Ada, right specing ?!
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2024-09-18T00:46:47 < catphish> i think this might be somewhat self imposed, but i'm still bothered by the lack of availability of Ethernet in STM32. I'm trying to design 2 boards, one with SPI and some GPIO (so literally ANY microcontroller) and one with SPI and Ethernet. based on availability and pricing at JLC, I find myseld choosing G030 and F407. The latter choice annoys me. It seems ridiculously oversized, and old. I'd like a newer, smaller chip, with basically the ony requirement
2024-09-18T00:46:48 < catphish>  being ethernet, but availability of such a thing doesn't seem to be on my side. i know there are several ranges of chip with ethernet, but nothing less then 100 pins is readily available, and only the only F1 / F4 chips seem to be simple / affordable choices
2024-09-18T00:49:58 < qyx> you can try esp32, satisfies all your requirements
2024-09-18T00:49:59 < specing> catphish: yeah, I don't understand why STMs tend to not feature modern-ish connectivity (ethernet, bluetooth, zigbee, ...)
2024-09-18T00:50:16 < qyx> reasonably new, ethernet, jlc availability
2024-09-18T00:50:18 < specing> then you start thinking about pairing a stm32 with a connectivity-enabled MCU
2024-09-18T00:50:33 < specing> and then you realise that you don't need a STM at all
2024-09-18T00:50:36 < zyp> catphish, for ethernet, you should check the lowend options of f7, h7 and h5
2024-09-18T00:50:46 < zyp> last I checked, one of those were the cheapest stm32 with ethernet
2024-09-18T00:51:11 < qyx> yeah h750 or so is ~6e
2024-09-18T00:51:16 < catphish> zyp: i was liked the idea of h5, but availability / pricing (admittedly limited to JLC for now) is rather limited
2024-09-18T00:51:17 < zyp> specing, for bluetooth and zigbee, stm32wb should have you covered
2024-09-18T00:51:51 < qyx> jpa's price tool no worky anymore?
2024-09-18T00:52:17 < qyx> jpa-: did't you consider using octopart's API instead of scraping dk?
2024-09-18T00:52:31 < catphish> and i'm not *really* sure what i have against the F4, it's old, but still perfectly effective and available, the problem is probably just that i am so impressed by the G4, i want it to have ethernet
2024-09-18T00:52:56 < qyx> catphish: enc28j60 to the rescue!
2024-09-18T00:53:23 < qyx> The Octopart API is now part of the Nexar API. The Nexar API, built on GraphQL.. 
2024-09-18T00:53:26 < qyx> omg
2024-09-18T00:53:38 < zyp> graphql is great
2024-09-18T00:53:47 < catphish> qyx: is that an SPI ethernet MAC? if so, that may be ideal
2024-09-18T00:53:59 < qyx> catphish: it was a joke, but yeah, it is
2024-09-18T00:54:08 < qyx> but check the newer ones
2024-09-18T00:54:14 < qyx> this particular one is 10mbit only
2024-09-18T00:54:39 < catphish> qyx: honestly, i'd be tempted to settle on a STM32 line, and add the ethernet separately, but it's probably not actually a good design decision
2024-09-18T00:55:03 < qyx> SPI MACs are now back in business with 802.3cg
2024-09-18T00:55:08 < qyx> so not that bad
2024-09-18T00:55:18 < qyx> with the standard openalliance whatever api thing
2024-09-18T00:55:48 < zyp> qyx, h750 starts at $3.03 in singles at jlc
2024-09-18T00:55:50 < qyx> https://wiki.analog.com/resources/tools-software/linux-drivers/net-mac-phy/open_alliance
2024-09-18T00:55:59 < qyx> zyp: O_o
2024-09-18T00:56:06 < zyp> f407 at $2.538
2024-09-18T00:56:13 < qyx> yeah so it is no brainer then
2024-09-18T00:56:27 < qyx> except that h750 is 64k and f407 brobably 256k at leas
2024-09-18T00:56:35 < zyp> 512
2024-09-18T00:56:50 < catphish> zyp: F407 is my current choice (based on cost / availability)
2024-09-18T00:56:59 < qyx> and jbo will tell you about silicon cache bugs when trying to execute XIP from external flash
2024-09-18T00:57:02 < catphish> i'm just offended by being forced to choose such an old design i guess
2024-09-18T00:57:06 < specing> zyp: that's ... pricy
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2024-09-18T00:57:32 < qyx> also that gorgely rp2350 guy
2024-09-18T00:57:36 < specing> zyp: or.. perhaps not, stm32wb55cgu6 board on ali for 6 euros..
2024-09-18T01:01:38 < catphish> i guess i'll plough on with G0 and F407, but grr to ST for not making Ethernet a priority
2024-09-18T01:10:56 < zyp> G4 has FSMC, you could add a small FPGA implementing a MAC and still have it memory mapped :)
2024-09-18T01:13:57 < catphish> that's disgusting :)
2024-09-18T01:14:37 < catphish> would it kill ST to put an ethernet controller in a 64 pin G4 :)
2024-09-18T01:15:48 < catphish> i suspect my expectations are unreasonable, but it's interesting that F407 hasn't been properly superseded
2024-09-18T01:16:17 < zyp> why would it be?
2024-09-18T01:16:52 < zyp> if f407 is what fits your project, why not?
2024-09-18T01:16:54 < catphish> that's the right question
2024-09-18T01:17:31 < catphish> the problem is purely that the G4 series has made me think of the F4 series as being deprecated
2024-09-18T01:18:10 < catphish> i believe that's not the case, but it's somehow lodged in my brain
2024-09-18T01:18:11 < zyp> g4 is a f3 replacement, not f4
2024-09-18T01:19:10 < catphish> i guess i need to understand that F4 is still a current high performance line
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2024-09-18T01:19:38 < catphish> but oldness seems to be a problem in my mind
2024-09-18T01:20:02 < catphish> that's a nonsense though, so i'll buy a F4 and stop worrying
2024-09-18T01:20:22 < catphish> (though i stand by my complaint that ethernet MCUs are physically too big) :)
2024-09-18T01:22:12 < zyp> switch to BGA then :)
2024-09-18T01:23:14 < qyx> h7 has a nice bga100 with 0.8 mm pitch
2024-09-18T01:23:17 < qyx> super small
2024-09-18T01:23:27 < qyx> e-z
2024-09-18T01:23:29  * qyx recommends
2024-09-18T01:25:13 < catphish> nice
2024-09-18T01:32:39 < specing> https://github.com/STMicroelectronics/STM32CubeWB/blob/master/Middlewares/ST/STM32_WPAN/LICENSE.md
2024-09-18T01:32:59 < specing> "ULTIMATE LIBERTY SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT"  trollololol (it doesen't give you ultimate liberty)
2024-09-18T01:33:14 < qyx> only trump gives you the ultimate liberty
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2024-09-18T02:29:13 < jbo> did somebody say h750?
2024-09-18T02:29:14 < jbo> fuck no.
2024-09-18T02:29:34 < jbo> h7 is a huge no-no in general unless you absolutely have to. h750 in particular. what a pain.
2024-09-18T02:32:40 < qyx> heh
2024-09-18T02:33:05 < qyx> hows your h7 going
2024-09-18T02:33:41 < qyx> my last h7 was great, did a 50 line blinky leds, shipped, called it a day
2024-09-18T02:48:24 < jbo> hah
2024-09-18T02:48:30 < jbo> too many h7 projects here
2024-09-18T02:49:09 < jbo> the other thing is apparently doing 4x 44.1kHz 32-bit PCM to SDcard 
2024-09-18T02:49:45 < jbo> apparently even 3x 44.1kHz and 1x 96kHz
2024-09-18T02:54:29 < qyx> yeah? did you "finish" the fw?
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2024-09-18T08:13:44 < jpa-> catphish: in my opinion F407 is a great choice, it doesn't have any huge bugs and the software support is mature
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2024-09-18T08:44:46 < antto> jbo, hm? what's wrong with h7xx?
2024-09-18T08:46:52 < jpa-> it's complex
2024-09-18T08:47:28 < jpa-> it has weeeeeird matrix of bus matrices, and if you configure it wrong or forget one of the kernel clocks, it just hangs up in a difficult to debug state
2024-09-18T08:50:00 < antto> :/
2024-09-18T08:51:01 < antto> i knew "bigger" chips would be complex, so that's not a surprise, i would've stayed on cortex-M4F if there was a fast enough one, but there ain't
2024-09-18T08:51:51 < antto> i chose H723 in particular, the QFP-100 variant
2024-09-18T08:52:10 < antto> i need very fast floating point processing
2024-09-18T08:52:56 < jpa-> it works, it is fast
2024-09-18T08:53:01 < jpa-> it just has its own quirks
2024-09-18T08:53:08 < jpa-> and jbo only tolerates his own quirks
2024-09-18T08:53:20 < antto> so he's like me then
2024-09-18T08:54:05 < antto> ideally (in my book), microsh*t wouldn't have bought atmel, and by now atmel maybe would've made a bunch more cortex-M chips, including faster ones
2024-09-18T08:54:14 < antto> and i would've picked one of those
2024-09-18T08:55:15 < antto> but instead, microsh*t did their thing, and now they're too busy renaming ATSAM to PIC32
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2024-09-18T12:07:01 < qyx> industrial pros, any recommended digital output drivers?
2024-09-18T12:11:16 < zyp> driving what?
2024-09-18T12:14:01 < zyp> for the fanuc stuff, driving low-side switched 24V outputs, I ended up with some ULN2803 variant
2024-09-18T12:14:58 < qyx> driving arbitrary industrial loads, sourcing outputs
2024-09-18T12:15:18 < qyx> eyeballing TPS4H000 now
2024-09-18T12:15:29 < zyp> then maybe some shit like VNI8200XP?
2024-09-18T12:15:52 < qyx> and VNQ5027
2024-09-18T12:16:30 < qyx> yeah it looks very similar
2024-09-18T12:16:43 < qyx> a bit expensive
2024-09-18T12:17:02 < qyx> do you consider 45 V to be enough?
2024-09-18T12:27:23 < zyp> idk what relevant standards say, but I wouldn't trust equipment designed for nominal 24V to not blow up at 45V
2024-09-18T13:22:00 < karlp> qyx: shame on you for pimping enc28j60
2024-09-18T13:27:41 < qyx> I hate it
2024-09-18T13:30:39 < karlp> esp32 has support for KSZ8851SNL and dm9051 and w5500 standard as externals, plus their own board mac on original esp32.  but it's all more $
2024-09-18T13:31:31 < qyx> w5500 is on the same level as enc-whatever
2024-09-18T13:31:42 < qyx> also, newer esp32 have no mac
2024-09-18T13:31:42 < karlp> it's all bad.
2024-09-18T13:32:05 < karlp> wtf is 802.3cg?
2024-09-18T13:32:22 < karlp> not t1-s, just somethign else? another "SPE" impl?
2024-09-18T13:32:23 < qyx> have you been living under a rock for the last 2-3 years?
2024-09-18T13:32:35 < karlp> oh no,
2024-09-18T13:32:40 < karlp> 802.3cg is t1s and t1l.
2024-09-18T13:32:50 < karlp> nvm then. I was misreading this page you linked
2024-09-18T13:32:51 < qyx> yeah, our holy grail
2024-09-18T13:32:55 < qyx> with zyp
2024-09-18T13:33:18 < karlp> I floated it here the other day, for a "longer than usb" inter module connection
2024-09-18T13:33:35 < karlp> they're going to stick with can classic and place their ethercat chip down as well.
2024-09-18T13:33:50 < karlp> winning hw design here.
2024-09-18T13:42:27 < qyx> anyway, I selected TPS274160 for 4-ch out
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2024-09-19T03:56:50 < qyx> When a break character is received, the USART handles it as a framing error.
2024-09-19T03:56:57 < qyx> from RM0440
2024-09-19T03:57:04 < qyx> why, ST
2024-09-19T03:59:47 < qyx> hm but yeah I can check if data=0x00 and FE bit set
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2024-09-19T07:02:23 < emeb_mac> sigh - client wants a new stm32 design + firmware. starts as usual w/ proposal for simple single-function product. Then as he continues to brainstorm it gets more and more complex, adding display, more I/O, buttons, knobs, encoders. After a few days of "spitballing" it's turned into a year-long design project with extensive firmware requirements.
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2024-09-19T08:27:29 < jpa-> emeb_mac: sounds like job security
2024-09-19T08:27:44 < jpa-> but just pitch back that minimum viable product is the cool thing now
2024-09-19T08:29:34 < emeb_mac> jpa-: lord knows I've tried that. this guy is incorrigible though. somewhere along the way he got this idea in his head that selling a few very complex & expensive units is better than selling a lot of simple ones.
2024-09-19T08:30:07 < jpa-> it can be true
2024-09-19T08:30:25 < jpa-> but if the client is annoying, may be better to just say the project is too complex for you :)
2024-09-19T08:30:59 < emeb_mac> heh. too late for that. I've been doing work for this guy for almost 20 yrs - can't back out now. :P
2024-09-19T08:31:21 < emeb_mac> but that also means I've seen this pattern over & over. 
2024-09-19T08:31:50 < jpa-> what, you have some kind of permanent contracts that you can't back out of?
2024-09-19T08:32:33 < emeb_mac> nah. I've actually not got a lot going on these days - mostly retired at this point. 
2024-09-19T08:33:26 < emeb_mac> and this kind of work is generally the sort of thing I'd do for fun anyway, so it's nice to get paid for it.
2024-09-19T08:34:26 < jpa-> out of interest, are you retired because of old or retired because of filthy rich?
2024-09-19T08:34:34 < qyx> was about to ask
2024-09-19T08:37:18 < emeb_mac> hmm... not filthy rich, must be old.
2024-09-19T08:40:12 < antto> sounds like $boss
2024-09-19T08:41:43 < antto> the idea starts of at the level of "monocycle" and when you make it, he sees it and says "yeah, cool, actually i didn't need the pedals, and now, can you add this and that" ... and this repeats several times untill it turns into a "tank"
2024-09-19T08:43:54 < emeb_mac> this exactly
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2024-09-19T12:30:41 < zyp> we had a client drop by yesterday that we did a project for half a year ago, wanting to discuss some further work he wanted done
2024-09-19T12:31:32 < zyp> some of it were natural extensions (and one even prepared for in hardware, but not enabled yet)
2024-09-19T12:32:22 < zyp> and then he asked about what spare IO was available, because he wanted to hook it up to something else and use it for something it's not designed to do at all
2024-09-19T12:44:58 < jpa-> isn't that like every project ever?
2024-09-19T12:47:30 < karlp> my work projects are the reverse, they threw all sorts of shit at the hardware, didn't write any software for it, and then leave most of it dangling.
2024-09-19T12:48:37 < ventYl> plenty of opportunities to wire up some explosives
2024-09-19T13:06:02 < karlp> I just managed to (successfully!) argue that adding a second molex picoblade connector for a normally unused debug uart, in addition to the existing 4x2.54mm header was  waste of time space and money.
2024-09-19T13:06:22 < nohit> there seems to be a bug in HAL_I2S_Init(), it calculates I2SDIV prescaler value based on sampling rate and I2SxCLK values, but in my case I2SDIV ends up being 0 which is invalid value, and the this causes return value to be HAL_ERROR
2024-09-19T13:06:25 < nohit> https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/zJlhPkDx/i2s_error.png
2024-09-19T13:06:32 < karlp> (We don't have any heritage of using picoblade for debug uarts anyway.... so this was just fucking dumb)
2024-09-19T13:07:15 < nohit> i have manuallly calculated minimum I2SxCLK value for 48 khz sampling rate and it is 49.152 MHz so the values should be good
2024-09-19T13:07:34 < nohit> any thoughts about this ?
2024-09-19T13:11:10 < jpa-> nohit: look at the source code of that function and see if you can figure out the error in calculation?
2024-09-19T13:12:05 < jpa-> maybe it is a rounding error
2024-09-19T13:14:59 < nohit> sure
2024-09-19T13:26:24 < nohit> it seems that HAL_RCCEx_GetPeriphCLKFreq(RCC_PERIPHCLK_I2S_APB1) returns a wrong value, it returns 15999984 Hz when it should be 49152000 Hz
2024-09-19T13:32:42 < nohit> the value that function returns is actually in kHz
2024-09-19T13:33:14 < nohit> so it seems to be total garbage
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2024-09-19T13:49:53 < nohit> yep, HAL_RCCEx_GetPeriphCLKFreq() seems to be the problem, when I2S PLL is involved it returns garbage, but if i skip it and use the external oscillator directly it returns the right value
2024-09-19T13:50:21 < nohit> and its in Hz, not kHz, the documentation is wrong
2024-09-19T14:30:28 < nohit> i think i accidently found a way to break the master clock = 256 × Fs rule, i set external osc value to 49.152 in cubemx (in reality i have 24.576 on the board) and set sampling rate to 48 kHz and it works
2024-09-19T14:39:17 < nohit> hmm maybe its just halves the sampling rate in reality
2024-09-19T14:45:49 < qyx> is it fulfilling to use the cube?
2024-09-19T14:45:53  * qyx starts the cube
2024-09-19T14:47:22 < nohit> the cube tools are very handy for board bring-up
2024-09-19T14:49:01 < nohit> and for the hw design as well, it would be pain to swap pins by looking at datasheet
2024-09-19T14:49:56 < qyx> I have been doing it that way for the past 12 years
2024-09-19T14:49:57 < karlp> just swap pins by using the pin remapping matrices....
2024-09-19T14:50:05 < karlp> oh right, this is failfailstm32....
2024-09-19T14:50:07 < nohit> cube hal might not be that great but its better than writing everything from scratch
2024-09-19T14:50:28 < karlp> thorsquinting_isit.gif
2024-09-19T14:52:52 < qyx> we are not that far karlp 
2024-09-19T14:55:13 < jbo> cube always comes back to bite you one way or another :(
2024-09-19T14:55:27 < jbo> god forbid it's even H7
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2024-09-19T16:26:44 < ventYl> jbo: you make me feel scared
2024-09-19T16:26:58 < ventYl> this is the first time I am using cube. it is H7
2024-09-19T16:27:12 < ventYl> at least, this time it didn't crash on start, like the last time I wanted to use it
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2024-09-19T18:13:49 < karlp> ~ix industrial is _keyed_ ?!
2024-09-19T18:21:19 < karlp> whee, amphenol is going to start selling SPE Y-connectors for multi drop :)
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2024-09-19T22:43:53 < qyx> related, finally? https://www.mouser.sk/new/stewart-connector/stewart-bel-spe-connector-systems/
2024-09-19T22:44:24 < qyx> but you must be kidding 30 eur for a 1m cable
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2024-09-19T23:52:23 < zyp> qyx, I'm starting to think that these are the best SPE connectors: https://no.mouser.com/new/phoenix-contact/phoenix-contact-spe-pcb-terminal-blocks/
2024-09-19T23:54:36 < qyx> :D
2024-09-19T23:55:16 < qyx> I decided I will use 3 pin A-coded M12 for T1L long runs
2024-09-19T23:55:37 < qyx> and 3 pin A-coded M8 for local T1S buses
2024-09-19T23:56:45 < qyx> using the standard pinout, all with PoDL, so no harm even if someone misuse them
2024-09-19T23:57:29 < karlp> I thought about (briefly) decideding to go all on in making some t1 podl shit, but then I went....
2024-09-19T23:57:49 < karlp> just run 12/24V around the garden, use esp32s, control it all with bt/wifi/espnow.
2024-09-19T23:58:00 < zyp> :)
2024-09-19T23:58:00 < karlp> fucking getting into new ip stacks and new tech..
2024-09-19T23:58:33 < karlp> I still want to, but... it's not going to happen
2024-09-19T23:58:42 < zyp> in my case it typically turns into «fuck it, just run regular ethernet»
2024-09-19T23:58:58 < karlp> heh
2024-09-19T23:59:03 < karlp> yeah, that too.
2024-09-19T23:59:16 < qyx> I have some edge use cases when regular ethernet nor FO fits
2024-09-19T23:59:40 < zyp> SPE doesn't really have a lot of advantages over regular ethernet for my industrial automation tinkering
--- Day changed pe syys 20 2024
2024-09-20T00:00:17 < zyp> I like the idea of small compact connectors, but that goes out the window when they're unobtanium and/or $$$
2024-09-20T00:00:20 < qyx> the main advantage I see is the cable price
2024-09-20T00:00:39 < karlp> I need to find some places with a bunch of legacy wiring, and offer them udpates.
2024-09-20T00:00:44 < qyx> and whether you pay 1000e or 4000e for the cable itself is a deciding factor
2024-09-20T00:00:48 < zyp> oh, and I like those M8 or M12 SPE + power variants, but again $$$$$
2024-09-20T00:00:53 < karlp> that "reuse teh pair in the wall" is appealing
2024-09-20T00:01:35 < zyp> for the stuff I do, cheap off the shelf rj45 patch cords beats every fucking SPE cable assembly on price
2024-09-20T00:01:47 < karlp> but it still kinda feels like "I want to like it, but I can't find anything that needs it"
2024-09-20T00:01:54 < zyp> yeah
2024-09-20T00:02:09 < karlp> and "putting ipv6 on the 4-20ma sensor" isn't reallly...... actually all that appealing?
2024-09-20T00:02:31 < karlp> but maybe "someone" just needs to start making single sensor modules with spe connectors and start.....
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2024-09-20T00:49:06 < qyx> unrouted: 443, getting close
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2024-09-20T01:14:45 < qyx> anyway, idk if I mentioned to irc pros, I got that cheapish lolwon handheld scope
2024-09-20T01:15:18 < qyx> after about 10 minutes of monkey pushing buttons randomly I managed to explore all parts of the menu
2024-09-20T01:15:23 < qyx> and it is actually usable
2024-09-20T01:15:59 < qyx> some reviews say it discharges the batteries fast even when turned off
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2024-09-20T03:18:20 < qyx> unrouted 195, innovation continues tomorrow
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2024-09-20T10:49:25 < zyp> mawk, I'm considering integrating python into my unity test cases so I can write assertions in python, how silly does that sound?
2024-09-20T11:00:14 -!- Livio [~livio@user/livio] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
2024-09-20T11:13:18 < jpa-> why do people keep naming projects "unity"
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2024-09-20T11:27:42 < zyp> low creativity
2024-09-20T11:42:15 < qyx> lol creativy
2024-09-20T11:42:26 < qyx> *creativity
2024-09-20T12:16:27 < zyp> uh, Python.h doesn't like getting included into the test environment
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2024-09-20T12:34:06 < zyp> because this ceedling bullshit builds with -nostdinc
2024-09-20T12:34:12 < zyp> how the fuck do I override that then
2024-09-20T12:38:43 < zyp> «just manually add the default include dirs back» seems to be the answer
2024-09-20T12:38:44 < zyp> fucking shit
2024-09-20T12:41:20 < jpa-> cpp Python.h > BetterPython.h
2024-09-20T12:41:53 < zyp> haha, maybe
2024-09-20T12:42:44 < zyp> I'm also considering just pulling out the python helper layer I'm making, building that separately and ensuring that has a simple enough header
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2024-09-20T12:50:30 < jpa-> https://jlcpcb.com/image/f1a542f688be484a92700bfc767d6ec5.jpg   what is happening in this image? cleaning the boards with a gloving toothbrush
2024-09-20T12:50:35 < jpa-> *glowing
2024-09-20T12:53:53 < BrainDamage> the dial has a nonsensical bump too
2024-09-20T12:54:09 < BrainDamage> and there's some weird pcb stacked floating on top
2024-09-20T12:54:49 < BrainDamage> and the computer has a garden hose connector coming off front
2024-09-20T12:55:20 < qyx> is that unusual
2024-09-20T12:56:56 < BrainDamage> does yours have one?
2024-09-20T12:57:05 < BrainDamage> to drain excessive rain floods?
2024-09-20T12:58:48 < qyx> no, water cooling is pretty common nowadays
2024-09-20T12:58:58 < karlp> realllllly.gif
2024-09-20T13:39:02 < zyp> okay, this works great: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/PvHvP
2024-09-20T13:39:16 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/bJ4XN.png
2024-09-20T13:40:05 < zyp> if I get less lazy I might fix the line numbers in the location too
2024-09-20T13:42:46 < zyp> now I just need a nice way to pass a C buffer into python, and then it's just a matter of writing message parsing code in python and adding assertions in testcases
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2024-09-20T15:12:02 < zyp> this protocol I'm parsing is such a mess
2024-09-20T15:13:31 < zyp> they have varints, and they have tlv that are «tag: varint, len: varint, payload: arbitrary»
2024-09-20T15:14:10 < zyp> and a message is a tlv, but the payload format is not consistent
2024-09-20T15:14:56 < zyp> one message here that's [u32, u32, bunch of tlvs]
2024-09-20T15:15:56 < c10ud> ever parsed mpeg2ts?
2024-09-20T15:16:16 < zyp> hmm, I might have, a decade ago, doesn't remember any of it :D
2024-09-20T15:17:42 < c10ud> fully documented, but let's just say wasn't the nicest experience
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2024-09-20T16:30:33 < zyp> ah, this is so much nicer: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/fg8Xc
2024-09-20T16:43:52 < ventYl> c10ud: I have parsed MPEG TS and it isn't far the worst thing one could parse
2024-09-20T16:44:34 < ventYl> though use of julian date was surprising. even more that it wasn't marked as julian date. the spec just shown some formulas to convert to/from it.
2024-09-20T16:46:55 < c10ud> all the tiny clauses when parsing different pids, duh
2024-09-20T16:48:58 < c10ud> btw, not the worst thing, yes, but i was linking to zyp's payload format comment lol
2024-09-20T16:50:30 < ventYl> My goal was to parse EPG out of it. It had to be done manually because for some reason our HW did not have capability to set filters in a way we could filter out EPG from the stream.
2024-09-20T16:51:19 < ventYl> As a side-effect, this effort led to MPEG stream clock recovery. So the set top box was later able to play MP3 audio streams as well. Something the original HW never really supported.
2024-09-20T16:55:33 < c10ud> ah, mine was easier: getting satellite informations 
2024-09-20T16:56:18 < c10ud> but we used a tuner that performed the downconversion up to parallel data to our fpga which synchronized and provided pids on request through serial (!) link
2024-09-20T16:56:27 < c10ud> so, way easier
2024-09-20T16:56:56 < c10ud> then final pid parsing parsing on mcu
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2024-09-20T18:45:36 < qyx> motor pros, do I understand it right than when I have a hall switched 6-step inverter turning a bldc, it is naive to expect that when the bldc starts spinning faster than nominal with some external force, the current will reasonably flow in the opposite direction?
2024-09-20T18:46:06 < qyx> because it does, but only about 2 A
2024-09-20T18:46:13 < qyx> phase currents are 3x 2.5 A
2024-09-20T18:46:33 < qyx> I guess I need to modify the commutation timing a bit?
2024-09-20T18:46:52 < qyx> I don't want to go into foc voodoo and whatnot
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2024-09-20T19:03:26 < jpa-> qyx: it should flow back, but only proportional to RPM
2024-09-20T19:03:35 < jpa-> for actual regeneration you would want to PWM lower
2024-09-20T19:04:27 < jpa-> commutation timing may need small adjustments if you are not doing FOC; you could check voltage vs. current phase difference with a scope, for maximum efficiency they should be in sync
2024-09-20T19:04:51 < jpa-> (or in 180°, depending on how you define the polarity of current)
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2024-09-20T19:17:40 < qyx> yes when I pwm lower, the current increases a bit and then starts decreasing
2024-09-20T19:18:05 < qyx> but the motor slows down further
2024-09-20T19:19:08 < qyx> k thanks for the pointers, I'll scope it
2024-09-20T19:23:59 < jbo> jpa- likes to use his pointer
2024-09-20T19:28:13 < qyx> hm so in regen I may simply switch to bemf commutation and adjust it to match and that's all?
2024-09-20T19:40:13 < jpa-> yeah
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2024-09-20T20:37:42 < qyx> I concluded measuring phase u/i on a running ecu in field with a running engine is a high risk operation and I don't want to spot-weld another scope probe
2024-09-20T20:38:05 < qyx> I'll finish the firmware and will measure over can
2024-09-20T20:44:06 < jpa-> when you are interested only in the phases, you can put a ferrite ring around the phase for current measurement, and piece of copper tape on top of the insulation for voltage
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2024-09-20T21:34:33 < qyx> and do I understand iy right that I can calculate "an angle" (flux angle?) using phase voltages and currents, add (to run forward) or subtract (to regen) something and calculate new pwm values which I can apply?
2024-09-20T21:34:52 < qyx> this is basically the foc?
2024-09-20T21:40:04 < qyx> https://sterlinggtake.com/article/field-oriented-control-foc-algorithm-for-motor-control/
2024-09-20T21:40:08 < qyx> somewhst helpful
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--- Day changed la syys 21 2024
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2024-09-21T03:45:50 < qyx> karlp: this is actually pretty neat https://github.com/empicano/aiomqtt
2024-09-21T03:46:00 < qyx> (just saw this in my gihub dashboard)
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2024-09-21T14:20:09 < karlp> I've used https://pypi.org/project/asyncio-mqtt/ before, was pretty good.
2024-09-21T14:20:34 < karlp> has emicano as one of it's authors.
2024-09-21T14:20:38 < karlp> no idea what's what anymore
2024-09-21T14:20:58 < karlp> oh, no, github url redirects to empicano now.
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2024-09-21T17:21:49 < qyx> karlp: it is theone you liked on gh
2024-09-21T17:22:14 < qyx> I am not a big fan of async but this looks reasonable
2024-09-21T17:22:21 < qyx> until it is overused and abused
2024-09-21T18:10:47 < karlp> you have to go all in, but i think I'm coming around.
2024-09-21T18:11:08 < karlp> we never deployed it htough, it was the base of the sw for the final gen we were developing.
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2024-09-21T19:20:48 < jbo> moin
2024-09-21T19:30:45 < jbo> are we feeling fancy?
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2024-09-21T20:47:27 < fenugrec> I am making un-fancy shelves
2024-09-21T20:47:37 < fenugrec> they are innovative, though
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2024-09-21T23:49:50 < Steffanx> Time to show this innovation, fenugrec :)
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2024-09-22T00:37:50 < fenugrec> Steffanx https://filebin.net/ecjiwddtnc8u7rbr/wip.jpg
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2024-09-22T02:08:14 < zyp> I've used hbmqtt before, which somebody forked to amqtt after the original author lost interest
2024-09-22T02:11:01 < zyp> fork doesn't look very maintained either though, so I don't think I'd pick that for a new project today
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2024-09-22T09:53:57 < Steffanx> I'm not THAT fast fenugrec 
2024-09-22T10:35:34 < jbo> moin moin
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2024-09-22T14:46:45 < fenugrec> innovation never waits Steffanx  https://filebin.net/ur9jnot9tkarich1/wip.jpg
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2024-09-22T14:57:32 < jpa-> it looks so dodgy that you must have stolen my plans
2024-09-22T15:06:55 < fenugrec> it's actually quite rigid
2024-09-22T15:17:34 < Steffanx> Ah wonderful fenugrec :)
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2024-09-22T19:39:49 < vampirefrog> I made this slightly easier to browse https://usb.vampi.tech/
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2024-09-22T22:24:56 < jbo> > pee pee poo poo
2024-09-22T22:24:56 < jbo> lol
2024-09-22T22:25:10 < vampirefrog> my kinda guy
2024-09-22T22:25:26 < jbo> well I got it from you
2024-09-22T22:25:39 < vampirefrog> that's what she said
2024-09-22T22:25:53 < jbo> I see - we have a new contender
2024-09-22T22:25:55 < jbo> welcome!
2024-09-22T22:26:03 < jbo> you'll fit just right in
2024-09-22T22:27:18 < vampirefrog> anyway I'm making an usb descriptor database
2024-09-22T22:27:30 < jbo> rewrite all the things in rust!
2024-09-22T22:27:34 < vampirefrog> no fuck off
2024-09-22T22:27:47 < jbo> :D
2024-09-22T22:27:50 < vampirefrog> although I might support rust as a target for one of the features
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2024-09-22T22:29:18 < vampirefrog> so it's meant to collect USB descriptors so that if you want to make your own device, you can just copy an existing descriptor and implement the endpoint transfer code
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2024-09-22T22:29:41 < vampirefrog> so for example if you want to make a USB sound card, just copy the TI one and implement that
2024-09-22T22:29:49 < vampirefrog> they have a sound-card-on-a-chip
2024-09-22T22:30:36 < vampirefrog> if you want to emulate a mouse, just find one of the mice descriptors and copy it
2024-09-22T22:30:49 < vampirefrog> so with the descriptors now you can generate stub code for various targets and libraries
2024-09-22T22:30:56 < vampirefrog> so that's why I mentioned ruist
2024-09-22T22:31:02 < vampirefrog> it can be one of the targets
2024-09-22T22:32:13 < vampirefrog> but I only have about 80 devices of my own
2024-09-22T22:32:42 < vampirefrog> so I'll need to make it very easy for people to contribute their own
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2024-09-22T22:49:25 < vampirefrog> actually now that I think about it I kind of dd
2024-09-22T22:49:28 < vampirefrog> did*
2024-09-22T22:49:48 < vampirefrog> I made a program that's basically lsusb -v -d but with slightly more detail
2024-09-22T22:54:32 < vampirefrog> anyway lmk if anyone wants to contribute their descriptors to the database
2024-09-22T22:54:40 < vampirefrog> and is running linux
2024-09-22T22:58:42 < specing> <vampirefrog> no fuck off
2024-09-22T22:58:44 < specing> vampirefrog MVP
2024-09-22T22:58:59 < jbo> specing is alive w00t
2024-09-22T23:02:51 < specing> One of the worst and most buggy pieces of software I use is partially written in Rust
2024-09-22T23:03:11 < vampirefrog> I use gitea which is written in go
2024-09-22T23:03:14 < specing> and, it seems, the more Rust it contains, the buggier it gets
2024-09-22T23:03:37 < jbo> specing, at least it's totally safe!!!111eleven
2024-09-22T23:03:45 < specing> no, it readily segfaults
2024-09-22T23:03:48 < jbo> vampirefrog, so you didn't jump ship to forgejo?
2024-09-22T23:03:59 < jbo> I only migrated one gitea server to forgejo so far.
2024-09-22T23:04:01 < vampirefrog> are you just making names up at this point?
2024-09-22T23:04:26 < jbo> codeberg forked gitea after "stuff happened". said fork is called forgejo
2024-09-22T23:04:42 < jbo> https://forgejo.org/compare-to-gitea/
2024-09-22T23:07:43 < vampirefrog> well thanks for letting me know
2024-09-22T23:07:56 < jbo> you are very much welcome.
2024-09-22T23:15:17 < Steffanx> Who came up with that name?
2024-09-22T23:15:44 < vampirefrog> more like forgayo
2024-09-22T23:16:41 < vampirefrog> it went from stupid to stupider to stupidest
2024-09-22T23:16:49 < vampirefrog> initially it was gogs, then gitea, then forgejo
2024-09-22T23:17:06 < vampirefrog> gogs made some sense, it meant GO Git Service or something like that
2024-09-22T23:19:45 < jbo> I too like to complain about everything!
2024-09-22T23:23:49 < BrainDamage> at least it's not a common word which is impossible to search
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2024-09-22T23:26:27 < specing> vampirefrog: I was told its esperanto (or lojban?) for forge
2024-09-22T23:29:14 < vampirefrog> specing: if this is true, I will never install it
2024-09-22T23:33:28 < sauce> charging my forgejo crystal rn
2024-09-22T23:34:08 < Steffanx> vampirefrog is the new dongs?
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2024-09-22T23:40:58 < vampirefrog> https://git.vampi.tech/vampi/usbdesc/src/branch/master/programs
2024-09-22T23:41:14 < vampirefrog> try compiling these and run ./getdesc
2024-09-22T23:42:21 < jbo> c99 :o
2024-09-22T23:42:34 < vampirefrog> you can do ./getdesc | curl -F 'clbin=<-' https://clbin.com
2024-09-22T23:42:41 < vampirefrog> or whatever pastebin you want
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2024-09-23T00:40:19 < qyx> hm, once again, what to do with WP and HOLD pins on a serial NOR flash?
2024-09-23T00:40:27 < qyx> the topic regularly comes back to life
2024-09-23T00:41:29 < qyx> come manufacturers say there are internal pullups, some don't
2024-09-23T00:41:48 < qyx> in the past I encountered a chip having issues with WP floating
2024-09-23T00:43:45 < karlp> man, armv7/arm32 has been killed off wayyyy faster than I expected
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2024-09-23T01:06:06 < jbo> jesus christ cube HAL functions are GIGANTIC
2024-09-23T01:06:18 < jbo> HAL_RCC_OscConfig() is 1.5 kB
2024-09-23T01:07:07 < jbo> qyx, if you have the board space available, place the resistors and DNP when not needed. wouldn't be the first time somebody is swapping the FLASH chip and then exactly what you said.
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2024-09-23T01:14:44 < vampirefrog> karlp: how so? is it dead?
2024-09-23T01:15:11 < specing> jbo: it's a conspiracy to migrate you to larger flash devices
2024-09-23T01:15:13 < specing> :]
2024-09-23T01:15:33 < vampirefrog> wouldn't surprise me
2024-09-23T01:15:42 < jbo> specing :D
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2024-09-23T01:41:33 < fenugrec> 'forgejo' looks just like the random auto-generated names that china mfg's come up with for throwaway "brands", like today's top picks "SMLZV" and "jcxgrv"
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2024-09-23T02:25:45 < qyx> zyp: subrack crosscheck, what's the vertical distance between horizontal rail mounting holes on the 3U side panel?
2024-09-23T02:25:54 < qyx> I spotted a 0.4 mm or so disambiguity
2024-09-23T02:26:58 < qyx> which also makes fischer rails nonworking for schroff-dimensioned side panels
2024-09-23T02:50:02 < vampirefrog> fenugrec: well I for one enjoy my FNIRSI equipment
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2024-09-23T10:08:09 < qyx> so why is jlc asking if my holes are npth?
2024-09-23T10:08:54 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/GmYrx/Screenshot_2024-09-23_09-08-38.png
2024-09-23T10:09:03 < qyx> they are clearly NPTH, there are no pads
2024-09-23T10:09:37 < qyx> but I am curious how do they autodetect the type because they are all exported in the same .drl file
2024-09-23T10:09:52 < qyx> this one is touching layers hm
2024-09-23T10:10:02 < qyx> maybe kicad should cutout copper around npth holes
2024-09-23T10:11:09 < zyp> yeah, AIUI the common way to distinguish is to check if the holes are touching copper or not
2024-09-23T10:11:55 < qyx> but it is not doing so
2024-09-23T10:12:16 < zyp> altium has the option to distinguish by exporting them to separate files, and that's a perfect way to fuck up and forget to submit one of them
2024-09-23T10:12:25 < qyx> kicad too
2024-09-23T10:12:39 < qyx> but I never used that one
2024-09-23T10:12:55 < zyp> I once did a board that only got the npths, not the pths
2024-09-23T10:13:04 < qyx> I am facing this issue for the first time now
2024-09-23T10:13:08 < qyx> heh
2024-09-23T10:13:57 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/DFhXP.png
2024-09-23T10:14:36 < qyx> that board looks super clear
2024-09-23T10:14:39 < qyx> no copper either?
2024-09-23T10:15:06 < zyp> not apart from the pads, no
2024-09-23T10:16:00 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/DayMI.png
2024-09-23T10:16:11 < qyx> anyway, doing a special shelf-rack https://bin.jvnv.net/file/rClrL/Screenshot_2024-09-23_09-15-49.png
2024-09-23T10:16:47 < zyp> this was a dummy to test the fit and pinout of the backplane connector for my reverse engineered fanuc controller
2024-09-23T10:17:10 < qyx> did you just drill them and yolo?
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2024-09-23T10:19:07 < zyp> I considered attempting to get the CNC router in the hobby workshop to drill it, but no
2024-09-23T10:19:30 < zyp> I just did the measurements I could, made some changes, and then run another dummy later
2024-09-23T10:22:10 < qyx> so it is enough to set "copper to hole clearance" in design rules
2024-09-23T10:22:20 < zyp> another thing I learned from that board is that a 30cm board with a ground plane on the back and almost no copper on the front also bows badly
2024-09-23T10:22:34 < zyp> so the second gen had a pour on the front too :p
2024-09-23T10:25:03 < qyx> good to know, I am going to do 30 cm backplanes
2024-09-23T10:28:43 < qyx> could you fast-check the hole distance zyp?
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2024-09-23T10:45:22 < zyp> qyx, hang on, I'll have a look
2024-09-23T10:46:24 < zyp> wait, which side panels are we talking?
2024-09-23T10:55:42 < qyx> subrack side panels
2024-09-23T10:55:51 < qyx> https://schroff.nvent.com/en-sk/products/enc34561-185
2024-09-23T10:55:58 < qyx> did you make custom?
2024-09-23T10:57:06 < zyp> no, but I assume you are?
2024-09-23T10:57:11 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/n2x5q/Screenshot_2024-09-23_09-56-52.png
2024-09-23T10:57:41 < qyx> I am interested in this dimension exactly which does not correspond with holes on the original side panels
2024-09-23T10:57:57 < qyx> nor with dimensions in the EN doc
2024-09-23T10:58:15 < qyx> I mean their panel doesn't correspond to EN
2024-09-23T10:58:19 < zyp> right, because the holes for the mounting rails are not exactly in line with the holes for the front/back panels
2024-09-23T10:58:39 < zyp> I don't see a spec on this dimension in the catalog either
2024-09-23T10:58:45 < qyx> yes, that's something else
2024-09-23T10:58:53 < zyp> I can measure it on mine when I get home
2024-09-23T10:59:08 < qyx> nah don't bother measuring
2024-09-23T10:59:50 < zyp> so you're making custom panels?
2024-09-23T11:00:16 < zyp> what do you do about the square alignment holes?
2024-09-23T11:01:06 < zyp> just cut rails without the tabs?
2024-09-23T11:01:38 < qyx> nope I am using heavy rails which have two holes
2024-09-23T11:01:49 < qyx> had this alignment issue in the past with light rails
2024-09-23T11:03:05 < qyx> but even with light rails it becomes non-issue once you mount the backplane and at least one front panel, then you tighten side panel screws and it is okay
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2024-09-23T13:55:44 < karlp> has anyone here tried programming parts with jlc?
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2024-09-23T14:00:18 < karlp> ah, found the right faq.  ~$7 setup and ~$7 / hour
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2024-09-23T15:58:24 < ventYl> customer sent me prototype board. there's newer FW revision available, so they sent jlink along the board so that I can flash it.
2024-09-23T15:58:28 < ventYl> kthx
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2024-09-23T16:38:46 < Ecco> karlp: No idea they did that. Awesome that they do!
2024-09-23T16:38:51 < Ecco> thanks for sharing
2024-09-23T16:39:29 < Ecco> Question: I'm readying a MEMS accelerometer datasheet. I'm curious about the name of a register: "FF_IA". The description says "Free-fall event detection status.
2024-09-23T16:39:36 < Ecco> What would "_IA" mean?
2024-09-23T16:39:41 < Ecco> Interrupt Active?
2024-09-23T16:52:32 < Steffanx> Would be my guess
2024-09-23T16:56:10 < Ecco> thanks :)
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2024-09-23T17:06:38 < karlp> ecco: https://jlcpcb.com/help/article/jlcpcb-supported-personalized-services
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2024-09-23T17:08:39 < Ecco> Pretty cool! Thanks!
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2024-09-23T21:07:22 < fenugrec> in general, is there a way to trigger a DMA transfer with a pin ? looking at F0* RM now, I don't see anything obvious except maybe via some trickery with timer channels
2024-09-23T21:11:30 < jpa-> timer is the way to go
2024-09-23T21:15:23 < jpa-> set the timer SMCR to external clock mode 1 and trigger to edge detector, then you can set a CCR DMA request to happen on rising edge and another one on falling edge
2024-09-23T21:15:35 < jpa-> and the timer counts between 0, 1, 0, 1 etc.
2024-09-23T21:16:24 < qyx> input capture works too
2024-09-23T21:16:34 < jpa-> yeah
2024-09-23T21:17:05 < jpa-> though does that latch the DMA request until you read the capture register?
2024-09-23T21:17:13 < jpa-> i guess not
2024-09-23T21:18:23 < qyx> it can be used to dma CCR to memory, so DMA request fires without reading CCR
2024-09-23T21:18:23 < jpa-> hmm, i think input capture would set CCxIF once, then if you use your one precious DMA request to do something else than read the CCRx register, the flag stays on and on next edge you get overcapture flag
2024-09-23T21:18:40 < qyx> hm
2024-09-23T21:18:58 < fenugrec> jpa- thanks, that's close to what I expected
2024-09-23T21:19:17 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/stm32inputcapture.png
2024-09-23T21:20:18 < jpa-> fenugrec: this is using the GD32 libraries and a horror show in any case, but if you want to see a fancy DMA + timer dance, look no further  https://github.com/ZuluSCSI/ZuluSCSI-firmware/blob/main/lib/ZuluSCSI_platform_GD32F205/scsi_accel_dma.cpp#L132-L150
2024-09-23T21:20:51 < fenugrec> could also setup timer to FFFF , use ext pin to increment like you described, and use the Update flag to trigger DMA ? avoiding the CCxIF issue entirely
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2024-09-23T21:21:17 < fenugrec> *autoreload to FFFF
2024-09-23T21:22:38 < jpa-> yeah
2024-09-23T21:23:11 < jpa-> or config the external input as reset (which generates update event)
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2024-09-23T23:03:51 < karlp> TIL this existed.  (someone on a local chat recommended it as their favourite soldering iron) https://www.ryobitools.com/products/details/33287176977
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--- Day changed ti syys 24 2024
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2024-09-24T00:34:39 < ventYl> karlp: how much will I cry dealing with tinyusb on device?
2024-09-24T00:44:10 < Steffanx> The happiest days of your life are nearby ventYl 
2024-09-24T00:49:09 < ventYl> authors didn't bother much with documentation
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2024-09-24T01:16:50 < karlp> ventYl: no idea. that's presumabnly it's biggest area of support
2024-09-24T01:16:58 < karlp> I've onyl been doing host, and on unsupported hardware...
2024-09-24T01:17:03 < karlp> so... 
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2024-09-24T02:02:18 < fenugrec> karlp I see your contractor's soldering iron, and raise you a portable horn : https://trainhorndrill.com/products/dewalt-train-horn
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2024-09-24T02:14:05 < ventYl> karlp: O_o
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2024-09-24T04:24:12 < karlp> fenugrec: that's awesome!
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2024-09-24T10:41:04 < ventYl> karlp: somehow I managed to compile it
2024-09-24T10:41:16 < ventYl> although the binary size suggests it wasn't entirely linked yet
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2024-09-24T12:21:13 < zyp> karlp, I've seen it before, I'd rather take a S60P on a PD powerbank
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2024-09-24T12:52:05 < rob_w> hi i got a qspi memory mapped but it still feels to slow for my lcd appilcation , can i read and map this memory into ram ? at least some parts ?
2024-09-24T12:57:44 < ventYl> do you have cache enabled?
2024-09-24T13:02:25 < jpa-> rob_w: if you have enough ram, you could have a framebuffer in the internal ram
2024-09-24T13:02:46 < jpa-> further than that, it depends totally on the graphics library you use; STM32 doesn't have MMU so it cannot remap pages on demand
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2024-09-24T13:42:34 < karlp> huh, preempt-rt finally landed.
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2024-09-24T14:39:23 < rob_w> thx jpa- & ventYl 
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2024-09-24T15:40:09 < qyx> any recommended eu shop for esd packing polyethylene?
2024-09-24T15:41:04 < qyx> oh esdshop.eu
2024-09-24T15:41:09 < qyx> that was easy
2024-09-24T15:47:16 < qyx> wat they are slovaks
2024-09-24T15:47:20 < qyx> never heard of them
2024-09-24T15:47:29 < zyp> I was recently looking for those pink bubble bags
2024-09-24T15:48:07 < qyx> yeah they have them for very reasonable prices
2024-09-24T15:48:24 < zyp> ended up grabbing a 100-pack from aliexpress because everywhere else I found was unreasonably expensive
2024-09-24T16:27:12 < jbo> hallo
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2024-09-24T17:17:19 < Ecco> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRRNR4HyYaw&t=442s
2024-09-24T17:17:31 < Ecco> Do you guys know what the dude's doing at that point in the video?
2024-09-24T17:18:33 < lemmi> i didn't know either, but my guess is that it is some kind of flux
2024-09-24T17:19:27 < Ecco> My guess as well, but I'm interested in the specifics :)
2024-09-24T17:19:54 < Ecco> First time I'm seeing this. Normally I would ignore, but the guy seems to know what he's doing, so I'm curious
2024-09-24T17:33:43 < karlp> ok. I have a neat one.  i have  struct defined that has an #ifdef inside it, changing the size of some elements.
2024-09-24T17:33:59 < karlp> the header has a "classic" #ifndef guard.
2024-09-24T17:34:26 < karlp> but it's getting compiled twice, with different #ifdefs.... how do i track this down?
2024-09-24T17:34:46 < karlp> (I can fix it in this specific case by binnign the badly thought out ifdefs, but I'm curious how it's happening at all)
2024-09-24T17:36:53 < zyp> twice as in twice in the same translation unit, or mismatching between translation units?
2024-09-24T17:37:19 < karlp> different tu's I'd presume.
2024-09-24T17:37:49 < zyp> then include guards are not gonna help you, the file is included separately for every TU
2024-09-24T17:38:10 < jbo> Ecco, he's applying the magic smoke from the previous chip he took off to the new one.
2024-09-24T17:38:20 < karlp> right, so one of the incldue paths hasn't included the _other_ fucking .h file that came from kconfig steps then I guess.
2024-09-24T17:38:33 < zyp> that sounds about right
2024-09-24T17:38:48 < \dev\ice> karlp: maybe gcc -save-temps ... can help here?
2024-09-24T17:38:50 < zyp> sounds like this file itself should include the fucking .h file
2024-09-24T17:38:58 < karlp> I just rejigged the header to print out each time, and in which mode, and it's a fucking soup. 
2024-09-24T17:39:03 < karlp> zyp:I think it's trying too.
2024-09-24T17:39:10 < karlp> but someone was very clever somewhere.
2024-09-24T17:39:59 < zyp> the code I'm writing unit tests for at work had a ton of headers that don't include stdint/stdbool, despite declaring stuff using those
2024-09-24T17:40:39 < zyp> and it had a bunch of packed structs containing typedeffed enums
2024-09-24T17:41:01 < zyp> the enums weren't declared as packed, so they got a different size in my test build
2024-09-24T17:41:36 < karlp> 14 files the right way, 7 the wrong way.
2024-09-24T17:41:41 < karlp> it's a wonder this has ever worked.
2024-09-24T17:42:03 < karlp> yeah, this was exposed by using the same big struct, typedeffed as three different names.
2024-09-24T17:42:25 < karlp> all pointing to the same address.  it's osmeone's idea of "class extensions" gone wrong.
2024-09-24T17:42:41 < karlp> and accessing a field via one pointer worked, but not the other.
2024-09-24T17:58:48 < fenugrec> that sounds like linux struct termios/termios2 mess
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2024-09-24T20:30:11 < \dev\ice> Ecco: maybe it's similar to rosin atomizer?
2024-09-24T20:37:49 < Ecco> Yeah looks like it
2024-09-24T21:11:55 < zyp> hah, those looks like drug parnaphernalia
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2024-09-24T22:38:15 < karlp> whooo, thats a lot of boardtoboard connectors
2024-09-24T22:38:30 < karlp> what's the blue gloop? insutalating glue?
2024-09-24T22:39:11 < karlp> board2ribbon too I guess.
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2024-09-24T23:21:10 < PlasmaHH> Hi, haven't used CubeMX in ages, tried to quickly generate a makefile project for a nucleo U5A5  ... there was no linker script created... I thought it would create them too?
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2024-09-25T09:42:19 < ventYl> another poor soul that probably kept EWARM as the default output
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2024-09-25T10:22:23 < Steffanx> Sounds awfully familiar ventYl :D
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2024-09-25T10:56:58 < ventYl> yeah
2024-09-25T10:57:56 < ventYl> fortunately now I have food for the linker script molester
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2024-09-26T17:09:35 < jbo> hello all
2024-09-26T17:14:14 < zyp> hello jbo
2024-09-26T17:15:22 < jbo> \o/
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2024-09-26T18:00:05 < jbo> let's play another round of "why is my shit not working?"
2024-09-26T18:00:22 < qyx> broken, supposedly?
2024-09-26T18:00:50 < zyp> use more skill, like the kids say nowadays
2024-09-26T18:01:27 < qyx> do they? is it from mighty paws?
2024-09-26T18:01:34 < jbo> thank you guys
2024-09-26T18:01:52 < qyx> (btw a pretyt stupid cartoon)
2024-09-26T18:04:18 < qyx> unrelated, today I got a bunch of these https://www.storage.sk/regalove-prepravky/
2024-09-26T18:04:36 < qyx> I hope they will be good for 100x150 mm zip bags coming from part suppliers
2024-09-26T18:59:39 < qyx> but how to stock mouser "silver" bags
2024-09-26T18:59:57 < qyx> they are 200 mm wide
2024-09-26T19:00:39 < qyx> 120 mm I meant
2024-09-26T19:00:54 < jbo> had the same problem
2024-09-26T19:01:01 < jbo> ended up just lasercutting boxes out of 3mm MDF
2024-09-26T19:01:25 < qyx> I already tried stocking stuff in my own bags/boxes but I am lazy for that
2024-09-26T19:01:38 < qyx> when an order arrives I never manage that properly
2024-09-26T19:01:48 < qyx> and just put all into a box labelled "new"
2024-09-26T19:02:07 < qyx> but now I already have 5 bix "new" boxes
2024-09-26T19:02:11 < qyx> *big
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2024-09-26T19:02:51 < jbo> sounds like you could just introduce a 6th
2024-09-26T19:03:16 < qyx> that's not how 5s works
2024-09-26T19:05:42 < jbo> neither does HAL_UARTEx_ReceiveToIdle_DMA
2024-09-26T19:05:45 < jbo> you don't hear me complaining about it
2024-09-26T19:16:24 < karlp> fackign just caught the dudes writing "usb firmware updates" via "open putty, press 'b' on the text menu to switch to bootloader, close putty, run this python script that splatters a file at the serial port, success!"
2024-09-26T19:16:33 < karlp> never even fucking heard of dfu.
2024-09-26T19:17:02 < jbo> hah
2024-09-26T19:18:27 < qyx> whats wrong with that, I still have xmodem support in my loloader
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2024-09-26T20:55:12 < zyp> qyx, I do project boxes
2024-09-26T20:55:28 < zyp> one box with parts for project x, one box with parts for project y, and so on
2024-09-26T20:56:03 < zyp> if I need something that I've used before, I think back to which project I used it in and find the box
2024-09-26T20:59:00 < jpa-> i have boxes for project stuff and folders for basic parts
2024-09-26T21:04:18 < jbo> allegedly, jpa- also keeps a tube of LM324 in his undies.
2024-09-26T21:05:24 < jpa-> jbo doesn't, because he doesn't wear undies
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2024-09-26T21:19:05 < jbo> Steffanx, ping
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2024-09-26T21:22:42 < Steffanx> Hello.
2024-09-26T21:26:17 < qyx> zyp: same here but I only keep very specific parts in project boxes
2024-09-26T21:26:39 < qyx> but now I am trying to solve the common parts
2024-09-26T21:28:51 < zyp> I don't have common parts
2024-09-26T21:29:02 < zyp> oh, wait, I have some reels
2024-09-26T21:30:00 < jbo> Steffanx, how is flamish for dutch people? 
2024-09-26T21:30:25 < jbo> Steffanx, can a dutch-only person understand & speak flemish without any studying?
2024-09-26T21:30:35 < Steffanx> Yes jbo
2024-09-26T21:30:49 < jbo> hmm, I guess I was the only retard then
2024-09-26T21:31:11 < Steffanx> But it depends on the region they are from. Some dialects are a bit hard
2024-09-26T21:31:28 < jbo> I remember that the dutchies I was with also told me that they didn't understand half of it
2024-09-26T21:32:48 < Steffanx> Ok.. not my experience.
2024-09-26T21:33:44 < Steffanx> Also a dutch person would just speak Dutch, not flemish.
2024-09-26T21:35:11 < Steffanx> Since when jbo speaks dutch?
2024-09-26T21:35:29 < jbo> since jpa- rejected my love
2024-09-26T21:35:31 < Steffanx> Wouldn't you speak French with a Flemish person?
2024-09-26T21:35:56 < jbo> some belgium people seemed to have a pretty zero-tolerance policy on speaking french :p
2024-09-26T21:36:30 < Steffanx> They all speak it though. I recall it's mandatory on schools
2024-09-26T21:36:49 < Steffanx> So neuken in de keuken all the way now jbo?
2024-09-26T21:37:05 < jbo> hah
2024-09-26T21:45:08 < zyp> what's the root of the word neuken?
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2024-09-26T22:31:46 < ventYl> RIP my windows install
2024-09-26T22:49:06 < Steffanx> Heh I don't know zyp. 
2024-09-26T22:49:21 < Steffanx> I only know it's an "old" and used to mean something else.
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2024-09-26T23:09:44 < Steffanx> You know what the worst language I ever heard is jbo? That gibberish you used when you spoke with your friend 😜
2024-09-26T23:10:28 < Steffanx> It sounds familiar, but you can't understand a thing.
2024-09-26T23:23:45 < qyx_> we call it hatlanina
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2024-09-27T10:59:11 < qyx> YIL STM32 DAC output buffer is not RRIO
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2024-09-27T12:32:41 < jpa-> IIRC it sucks also in other ways (slowish and offset voltage, i think)
2024-09-27T12:35:21 < karlp> qyx_: your bridge simulator, did you share a schematic of that? or want to sell some?  it was a controllable artificial load cell effectively right?
2024-09-27T13:06:39 < BrainDamage> it simulates strain gauges?
2024-09-27T13:06:44 < BrainDamage> you should add a titan mode
2024-09-27T13:14:00 < qyx_> karlp: it is a bunch of precise resistors potted in epoxy with trimpots and rotary switches on a strain-decoupled pcb
2024-09-27T13:14:08 < qyx_> in a bridge configuration
2024-09-27T13:14:22 < qyx_> kaki wanted one too
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2024-09-27T13:46:02 < karlp> oh, no, I don't want that. that's manual and too much.
2024-09-27T13:46:27 < karlp> I want "good enough for testing" not calibration, and I want comptuer control of it.
2024-09-27T13:46:58 < karlp> gonna have a think about a dac toy.
2024-09-27T14:25:47 < zyp> karlp, just slap some digipots and some resistors in a bridge configuration then?
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2024-09-27T14:46:16 < karlp> probably just dac and a resistor divider is enough I think actually.
2024-09-27T14:48:27 < qyx> no
2024-09-27T14:48:45 < qyx> depends on how simple your measurement device is
2024-09-27T14:48:58 < qyx> many use polarity inversion or AC excitation
2024-09-27T14:49:12 < qyx> that wont work with a simple DAC and some resistors
2024-09-27T14:49:29 < karlp> excitation is definitely dc,
2024-09-27T14:49:36 < zyp> should work with digipots, AIUI those are just switched resistor ladders
2024-09-27T14:49:37 < karlp> polarity inversion might be though.
2024-09-27T14:49:38 < qyx> the most simple approach is a resistor bridge with one leg connected to a relay-controlled decade
2024-09-27T14:50:30 < karlp> but even if the polarity iinversion is just swapping in+ in-, who cares if I just keep giving them the same thing?
2024-09-27T14:50:49 < karlp> oh, no. 
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2024-09-27T15:02:44 < qyx> nobody, it would show as zero
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2024-09-27T15:50:38 < qyx> hm if I sample a square signal when it is high and low and make abs(sample1 - sample2), it should show me the Vpp of the signal, shouldn't it?
2024-09-27T15:50:51 < qyx> why is the result exactly 2 times less than the real Vpp?
2024-09-27T15:56:21 < c10ud> because your reference is in the middle?
2024-09-27T15:56:54 < c10ud> and sample2 equals reference in your measurement tool
2024-09-27T15:57:25 < qyx> noice, my INA distorts the signal
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2024-09-27T16:55:36 < jbo> hallo
2024-09-27T17:08:18 < karlp> qyx: something like https://tinyurl.com/2y8wveeg ?
2024-09-27T17:48:46 < qyx> karlp: yeah but you don'tneed the bottom right leg
2024-09-27T17:49:18 < qyx> only if you wanted to do some funny tempco
2024-09-27T17:50:32 < qyx> in 
2024-09-27T17:51:19 < qyx> thats actually a pretty good idea, instead of steering one leg only you could steer one side differentially
2024-09-27T17:56:51 < karlp> what do you mean I don't need the bottom right leg?
2024-09-27T18:25:37 < jbo> why is my shit not working guys?
2024-09-27T18:26:22 < BrainDamage> you left your crap in the toilet for too short time, it need to reach 18 years of age before it can start working legally
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2024-09-27T18:54:28 < karlp> fucking, jlc not helping get rid of f103.
2024-09-27T18:54:47 < karlp> f103 is in their preferred parts list, so no bom line item charge.
2024-09-27T18:57:29 < zyp> if you're looking in the bottom of the barrel, you'll find bottom of the barrel parts
2024-09-27T18:57:55 < karlp> sure, but...
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2024-09-27T19:23:46 < karlp> no preferred/basic usb connector of any sort either, meh.
2024-09-27T19:31:53 < jbo> hence I use jbo instead of jlc for PCBA
2024-09-27T19:59:16 < Steffanx> Stupid reason though. Jlcpcb assembly is damn easy
2024-09-27T20:03:26 < qyx> 98% of parts I use are not in the basic part list and half of them are not at jlc altogether
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2024-09-27T20:15:57 < Steffanx> Yet it's damn easy
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2024-09-28T12:10:38 < zyp> karlp, I'm experimenting with a new build system for laks, partly to have something that can build c++20 modules -- is there any other features you'd like to see that the old lacks?
2024-09-28T12:10:56 < zyp> separate build dir from the source tree is already on the list
2024-09-28T12:14:25 < zyp> what's the most complex projects you have? I'd like to test that they can also build with the new one
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2024-09-28T15:59:53 < karlp> hrm, not much.
2024-09-28T16:00:00 < karlp> I still mostly use it for experiments.
2024-09-28T16:00:20 < karlp> my iggest issue was building m,ultiplatform at the same time. I got a workaround but it was unfun.
2024-09-28T16:00:22 < karlp> let me see
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2024-09-28T16:07:17 < karlp> maybe this one: https://github.com/karlp/l2-krv-miniblink/blob/tusb-kinetis2/SConstruct
2024-09-28T16:07:50 < karlp> i could never make the multidir and globs work, it's a bit too manual creating  objects with # paths explicitly, but whateves, it's was once and now it's ok.
2024-09-28T16:08:25 < karlp> I don't really _do_ anything useful with play boards I'm afraid.
2024-09-28T16:08:41 < karlp> last personal projects were micropython which has its own.
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2024-09-28T18:16:03 < vampi__> lmao it's literally a python script
2024-09-28T18:16:11 < vampi__> people just have an aversion to Makefiles
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2024-09-28T19:13:24 < zyp> everything are python scripts nowadays :)
2024-09-28T19:15:27 < zyp> karlp1, yeah, I figure I'll keep the «env» concept, and tie it to a build dir, so that every build artifact created with that env ends up under that dir
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2024-09-28T20:52:39 < karlp1> vampi__: a good make script is fine too, but sometimes it's actually harder to get it right.
2024-09-28T20:54:03 < vampi__> yeah harder for script kiddies
2024-09-28T20:54:26 < vampi__> people who never opened the GNU Make manual
2024-09-28T21:13:57 < ventYl> makefiles fail miserably if you want to do any interaction with the environment around you, like detection of utilities / libraries / etc.
2024-09-28T21:14:22 < ventYl> they can do that but the result ends up uglier than virtually any other option and is portable like rocky mountains
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2024-09-28T21:49:36 < vampi__> yeah that's why they made autoconf
2024-09-28T21:52:08 < ventYl> one can't say that autoconf is much better in ugliness or portability
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2024-09-28T23:02:08 < Steffanx> Someone here likes to call it autohell
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2024-09-28T23:24:42 < zyp> the issue with make is that it only handles one part of several that makes up a complete build system, namely executing the dependency graph
2024-09-28T23:25:38 < zyp> and there's limits to how well it handles it too
2024-09-28T23:33:51 < zyp> anyway, my current experimentation seems to be working out well
2024-09-28T23:39:00 < zyp> I'm currently using pydoit for executing the dependency graph, and I get the compiler to list out dependencies for each source file, that works well for both regular header dependencies and cmi (module) dependencies
2024-09-28T23:44:21 < zyp> it works pretty well and manages to build a project that's a mix of both C++ modules and traditional C++ headers, there's just a couple of corner cases left where it doesn't detect that it needs to redo some steps, and those should be reasonably easy to fix with additional out-of-date checks
2024-09-28T23:45:12 < ventYl> qyx tried to do some C++ modules
2024-09-28T23:46:10 < zyp> one issue is that the compilation step generates both the object file and the CMI file, and the step is not rerun if I delete the CMI and leave the object
2024-09-28T23:46:11 < ventYl> uh oh. how can SVC call end up in WWDG_IRQHandler
2024-09-28T23:47:08 < zyp> I have the dependency graph set up correctly so that if something needs a given CMI, it also depends on the object so that steps gets run first
2024-09-28T23:47:19 < zyp> but it doesn't rerun if I fuck up the state
2024-09-28T23:48:00 < ventYl> zyp: shouldn't be rebuild of target that produces module be based on <out of date> property fo that target itself?
2024-09-28T23:48:24 < zyp> and the reason for that is that the CMI is not listed as an output file, because when I'm building the graph, I don't yet know whether a translation unit will generate a CMI or how it'll be named
2024-09-28T23:48:27 < ventYl> so, object present or not, target is out of date if CMI is missing, regardless of which one is the actual dependency?
2024-09-28T23:48:42 < zyp> yeah
2024-09-28T23:48:51 < zyp> so I need to add an explicit check for that
2024-09-28T23:51:49 < zyp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/j7JV7
2024-09-28T23:53:39 < ventYl> ah, two default SVC_Handlers in kuba
2024-09-28T23:53:41 < zyp> the collect_deps step is what's figuring out which translation units will create which CMIs
2024-09-28T23:53:50 < ventYl> nobody would expect the spanish inquisition
2024-09-28T23:54:35 < zyp> so I need the checks in the compile step to look at data from that to check if a CMI is supposed to be build, and if so, if it's present
2024-09-28T23:55:31 < ventYl> can't compiler say that?
2024-09-28T23:56:01 < zyp> the reason this is a bit of a mess is because I'm naming the CMIs after the modules, and the module names doesn't need to have any relation to the source file names
2024-09-28T23:58:23 < ventYl> based on my experience, doing any explicit naming is road to hell
2024-09-28T23:58:42 < ventYl> ah so this shit is trying to call RPC method before the kernel is even started
2024-09-28T23:58:45 < ventYl> that's unfortunate
2024-09-28T23:59:00 < zyp> explicit naming how?
2024-09-28T23:59:36 < zyp> the way I see it, this module stuff, once working, is gonna simplify other stuff a ton
2024-09-28T23:59:37 < ventYl> sooner or later I end up in a need of having other than derived name. but all the infrastructure is assuming the derived name
--- Day changed su syys 29 2024
2024-09-29T00:00:10 < ventYl> in my case it is library name, not module name
2024-09-29T00:00:22 < ventYl> and now I need to pass library name explicitly
2024-09-29T00:00:28 < zyp> include paths will be a thing of the past when I can import everything by module name
2024-09-29T00:00:53 < ventYl> so I'll have to rework linker script molester to accept explicit object names and then put autogenerated library names for <default> case
2024-09-29T00:00:57 < zyp> and that's particularly useful for stuff that would otherwise be generated headers
2024-09-29T00:01:42 < ventYl> for include paths, the interface/public/private target include paths concept of modern CMake works rather well
2024-09-29T00:02:01 < ventYl> the main drawback is that it is only regularly used for like ~4 years, so a lot of old packages don't use it
2024-09-29T00:02:12 < ventYl> and you end up with a mess of old-style and new-style dependencies
2024-09-29T00:04:42 < zyp> user code can go «import laks.hal.gpio;» or something, and it doesn't matter where that is defined, because wherever it is, it'll create build/cmi/laks.hal.gpio.gcm
2024-09-29T00:07:15 < zyp> no bullshit overlapping include paths or anything
2024-09-29T00:09:12 < ventYl> that's no different to #include <laks/hal/gpio.h> with path to <laks> being injected by adding dependency to laks, is it?
2024-09-29T00:11:04 < zyp> the difference is that the latter relies on an include path containing the parent dir of that laks directory
2024-09-29T00:12:03 < ventYl> sure, but that's trivial to supply
2024-09-29T00:17:49 < zyp> yeah, it's just a bit ugly to have to have extra nested directories in the source tree
2024-09-29T00:18:00 < zyp> less of an issue for generated headers since nobody looks at those
2024-09-29T00:19:32 < ventYl> not an issue as long as directories group files by purpose
2024-09-29T00:20:38 < zyp> I dislike storing headers separately from the relatd source files
2024-09-29T00:20:55 < zyp> but then again I hate the entire header/source split -- C++20 modules solves both :)
2024-09-29T00:21:29 < ventYl> I kinda like headers as a place where documentation is stored for the public API
2024-09-29T00:21:34 < ventYl> less clutter in the source file
2024-09-29T00:21:46 < zyp> much of laks is header only because I simply can't be assed to split stuff, especially when it's so thin
2024-09-29T00:23:21 < zyp> my goal is for it to end up being modules only
2024-09-29T00:23:46 < qyx> I hate the split too
2024-09-29T00:27:23 < zyp> initially I thought it was annoying to decouple the module name from the file names, but the more I've gotten into this, the more it makes sense
2024-09-29T00:27:53 < zyp> the whole module mapper thing is a bit annoying though
2024-09-29T00:28:37 < ventYl> drivers wanting to change interrupt status are annoying
2024-09-29T00:28:50 < ventYl> that's highly incompatible with running drivers in userspace
2024-09-29T00:29:12 < zyp> if you don't specify a module mapper, gcc just sticks all the CMIs into gcm.cache/ with files named after module names
2024-09-29T00:29:42 < zyp> and that's almost what I want, except I want the directory under build/, and there's no way to specify the directory for the default behavior
2024-09-29T00:30:28 < zyp> so I wrote a mapper that handles requests like «you want the CMI for foo? it's at build/cmi/foo.gcm»
2024-09-29T00:30:46 < qyx> I can think of some possibilities in the voodoo range including dy amically generated symlinks aod other stuff
2024-09-29T00:31:13 < zyp> this is really hacked up: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/210jT :p
2024-09-29T00:33:47 < zyp> in theory for a module-only project, you could use the module mapper as your dependency engine
2024-09-29T00:34:19 < ventYl> how do you hook that into  gcc?
2024-09-29T00:35:36 < zyp> just start compiling every translation unit in parallel, connected to the same module mapper; when a compiler asks for a MODULE-IMPORT that doesn't exist yet, just delay responding until another compiler has stated MODULE-EXPORT and MODULE-COMPILED
2024-09-29T00:36:24 < zyp> for small stuff that should work, for large stuff you probably don't want to start hundreds or thousands of compiler instances in parallel :p
2024-09-29T00:37:18 < zyp> gcc can either start the module mapper as a process and talk over stdin/stdout like here, or it can use a tcp or unix socket
2024-09-29T00:38:09 < zyp> I figure when I clean up this code, I'll abstract the interface so it can be used all three ways
2024-09-29T00:38:13 < ventYl> damn
2024-09-29T00:39:16 < zyp> https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc/C_002b_002b-Module-Mapper.html
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2024-09-29T00:39:27 < ventYl> I briefly recall reading about it
2024-09-29T00:39:44 < zyp> it's a bit overkill
2024-09-29T00:40:01 < ventYl> ok, the very next step I have to do is to relocate headers along the sources. include/ src/ split is super-stupid for non-public code
2024-09-29T00:40:12 < zyp> I'd be happy with the default mapper if I could just change the directory
2024-09-29T00:40:48 < ventYl> I guess that there was about three dozens of people who would be happy with the default mapper only if they could do one small adjustment... so that's why mapper interface was created
2024-09-29T00:41:26 < zyp> the mapping file option is kinda useless
2024-09-29T00:42:24 < zyp> to make a mapping file, I need to know which modules are exported
2024-09-29T00:42:45 < zyp> and I learn that by asking the compiler to produce a dependency file
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2024-09-29T00:43:20 < zyp> but to do that, the compiler needs the mapper
2024-09-29T00:44:17 < zyp> or, hmm, maybe I could run *that* with the default mapper, and then just rewrite gcm.cache in the results I get back
2024-09-29T00:45:03 < qyx> zyp so no support in sco s yet?
2024-09-29T00:45:08 < qyx> *scons
2024-09-29T00:45:17 < qyx> sorry my 'n' doesn't work
2024-09-29T00:45:18 < zyp> https://github.com/SCons/scons/pull/4248
2024-09-29T00:45:47 < zyp> so, there is
2024-09-29T00:46:07 < zyp> but I kinda want to get away from scons
2024-09-29T00:47:32 < zyp> laks already have a bunch of custom stuff on top of scons, and scons have a bunch stuff I don't need, including some I have to work around
2024-09-29T00:48:21 < zyp> so scons is pretty much serving two purposes for me: header scanning and dependency graph execution
2024-09-29T00:49:18 < ventYl> both can probably be done by ninja
2024-09-29T00:49:25 < zyp> the header scanning is less useful for modules, and there's other tools to do dependency graph execution
2024-09-29T00:49:38 < zyp> kinda
2024-09-29T00:49:48 < zyp> the compiler can do header scanning, and ninja can probably ingest the results
2024-09-29T00:50:22 < ventYl> that's how cmake does it, but IDK if it is looped through CMake, or it is kept within ninja
2024-09-29T00:50:39 < ventYl> make could do that on its own, although I've seen cases where it missed some of dependencies and the build was borked
2024-09-29T00:50:52 < zyp> yeah
2024-09-29T00:51:09 < zyp> as I said, right now I'm using pydoit for the execution
2024-09-29T00:51:45 < zyp> and it works reasonably well, but there's some things I'd like to do differently
2024-09-29T00:52:15 < zyp> so I think I want to do my own thing eventually
2024-09-29T00:53:14 < zyp> it's not like navigating a DAG is all that hard, python even has a built-in module to do it: https://docs.python.org/3/library/graphlib.html
2024-09-29T00:55:46 < zyp> the only issue is that that implementation is immutable once you've started navigating it, I need to be able to add extra edges as I go :)
2024-09-29T00:56:18 < ventYl> can't you do two-pass or something?
2024-09-29T00:56:44 < zyp> I could, but I'd rather not
2024-09-29T00:57:28 < ventYl> why?
2024-09-29T01:02:18 < zyp> because I think that'll add more mess than it solves
2024-09-29T01:03:38 < ventYl> because you add nodes as modules build?
2024-09-29T01:04:22 < ventYl> hm, btw is there any reliable way how to force the linker to keep unreferenced symbol in binary with -fdata-sections -Wl,-gc-sections other than explicit mention in linker script?
2024-09-29T01:05:24 < zyp> no, I think you need the linker script
2024-09-29T01:05:35 < ventYl> I'm really missing constexpr and consteval stuff in C
2024-09-29T01:05:59 < zyp> and typically when you have an unreferenced symbol, you want it at a fixed address, so you need the linker script to achieve that too
2024-09-29T01:06:00 < qyx> c23 to the rescue wig cinstexpr?
2024-09-29T01:06:11 < qyx> or do I remem er wrong
2024-09-29T01:06:31 < ventYl> I want to compile a table from fragments scattered over multiple sources
2024-09-29T01:06:53 < ventYl> I can put them all into one named section and generate symbols that point to boundaries of that section, so no fixed address needed
2024-09-29T01:07:09 < ventYl> but as none of the original variables will be referenced directly, linker will optimize them out
2024-09-29T01:07:53 < zyp> nope
2024-09-29T01:08:39 < zyp> if you're putting them in a named section, they're not subject to -fdata-sections, and as long as the named section is referenced, it shouldn't get thrown out
2024-09-29T01:08:55 < ventYl> IME it does
2024-09-29T01:09:18 < ventYl> maybe it is in the way how I reference the section
2024-09-29T01:09:26 < zyp> yeah, I was about to say
2024-09-29T01:10:07 < ventYl> you can't get an address of section as it is not a valid symbol
2024-09-29T01:10:10 < zyp> I mean, you could use KEEP() on the section reference in the linker script
2024-09-29T01:10:12 < ventYl> nor its size
2024-09-29T01:10:39 < ventYl> hm, that would work
2024-09-29T01:11:00 < zyp> .my_table : { KEEP(*(.my_table)) } > flash, or whatever
2024-09-29T01:11:17 < ventYl> normally, I don't want to use that to keep unreferenced symbols from .text section, because KEEP overrides -ftext-sections
2024-09-29T01:11:28 < ventYl> but with this table, I definitely want it all
2024-09-29T01:11:36 < zyp> yeah
2024-09-29T01:11:59 < zyp> https://cgit.jvnv.net/laks/tree/ld_scripts/generated.ld.j2?h=dev_v2 ref .init_array and .fini_array
2024-09-29T01:12:06 < zyp> they are tables and use KEEP() for this
2024-09-29T01:13:09 < ventYl> yeah, that's what I need
2024-09-29T01:13:50 < ventYl> this enabled two new features
2024-09-29T01:14:10 < ventYl> and I am not exactly sure I am OK with one of them
2024-09-29T01:15:32 < ventYl> kernel apparently has to be able to provide enable/disable interrupt syscalls
2024-09-29T01:15:39 < ventYl> if usermode can't call that directly
2024-09-29T01:20:37 < zyp> so about the dependency graph, I figure each node is a task, and there shouldn't be any issues adding more edges to add dependencies to a task that hasn't run yet
2024-09-29T01:21:30 < zyp> and to ensure tasks don't run before they have learned all their dependencies, they just have to depend on the tasks that adds them
2024-09-29T01:22:42 < ventYl> that's why I suggested two-pass processing
2024-09-29T01:23:13 < ventYl> simply sort out all the dependencies before you start building
2024-09-29T01:23:30 < ventYl> its a waste of everyone's time to build half of the project and then figure out you can't satisfy some dependency
2024-09-29T01:24:11 < ventYl> although that probably doesn't happen if you add reverse-dependency, but I can't figure out if that is a good move or not
2024-09-29T01:29:07 < zyp> I don't like the whole thing of dividing it into explicit passes
2024-09-29T01:31:39 < ventYl> why?
2024-09-29T01:31:50 < zyp> the collect_deps node I have in my current dependency graph already works like an implicit barrier though
2024-09-29T01:32:19 < zyp> if I rename the «export module foo;», it fails at that step before building anything:
2024-09-29T01:32:22 < zyp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/oGWxQ
2024-09-29T01:33:02 < zyp> it needs a better error, but effectively what that means is that there's dependencies on module foo, but nothing providing it
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2024-09-29T01:49:39 < ventYl> OK, it works
2024-09-29T01:49:44 < ventYl> now I can add syscall from anywhere
2024-09-29T01:49:53 < ventYl> welcome syscall ID clashes \o/
2024-09-29T01:50:36 < zyp> why explicit ID? can't you just derive it from the table index?
2024-09-29T01:51:10 < zyp> or table entry address, for that matter
2024-09-29T01:51:29 < ventYl> that would be great, but I need to know that on compile time, thus, ahead of linking
2024-09-29T01:51:35 < zyp> why?
2024-09-29T01:52:21 < ventYl> that's a good question
2024-09-29T01:52:43 < ventYl> maybe I could calculate the offset on link time
2024-09-29T01:54:24 < ventYl> that will be a question on limitations of recolations
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2024-09-29T02:09:00 < ventYl> zyp: heh, one additional problem: if no symbol from object file is referenced from outside, KEEP() is gutless
2024-09-29T02:09:19 < ventYl> especially if that object file is in a library
2024-09-29T02:20:29 < karlp1> vampi__: friends don't let friends autofail.
2024-09-29T02:22:26 < zyp> there we go, now it'll rebuild CMI files if they are missing: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/yZNAE
2024-09-29T02:22:51 < vampi__> wow
2024-09-29T02:23:05 < vampi__> I shoulda known you guys would sperg about it for 2 hours
2024-09-29T02:24:54 < ventYl> damn it will probably work
2024-09-29T02:50:13 < zyp> hmm, I added a hook to rescan dependencies if an indirect dependency changes
2024-09-29T02:50:21 < zyp> and that works
2024-09-29T02:51:29 < zyp> but now every TU gets recompiled if anything changes
2024-09-29T02:51:33 < zyp> for some reason…
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2024-09-29T03:31:33 < vampi__> TU Test Unit?
2024-09-29T03:31:35 < vampi__> doesn't that make sense?
2024-09-29T03:35:53 < zyp> translation unit
2024-09-29T03:36:05 < vampi__> 2fancy4me
2024-09-29T03:36:18 < zyp> source file, effectively
2024-09-29T03:36:28 < vampi__> oh is it like .mo files?
2024-09-29T03:36:33 < zyp> every source file shouldn't get recompiled if one changes
2024-09-29T03:36:48 < vampi__> yeah and every wheel shouldn't get reinvented if one exists
2024-09-29T03:36:48 < zyp> so I've fucked up something somewhere :)
2024-09-29T03:37:42 < zyp> sure
2024-09-29T03:38:01 < zyp> what build system that handles C++20 modules would you recommend?
2024-09-29T03:39:43 < vampi__> two words
2024-09-29T03:39:44 < vampi__> GNU
2024-09-29T03:39:45 < vampi__> Make
2024-09-29T03:39:51 < vampi__> also generate dependency files with -MM
2024-09-29T03:39:53 < vampi__> with gcc
2024-09-29T03:42:26 < vampi__> I dunno, I've never looked too deep into it but I like that you're coming up with your own custom thing
2024-09-29T03:42:50 < vampi__> just that it's gonna make a barrier to entry for others who don't know your build system
2024-09-29T03:43:08 < zyp> that's okay, nobody else is gonna use it anyway
2024-09-29T03:44:06 < vampi__> sad
2024-09-29T03:44:08 < vampi__> tragic
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2024-09-29T03:47:20 < zyp> but yeah, I'm already using g++ -MMD to generate dependency files, so for the sake of discussion; how do you get make to generate them and then load them before running the rules that are actually compiling the files?
2024-09-29T03:48:47 < zyp> I mean, in a classic makefile, you have gcc generate the .d file at the same time it's doing the .o file, which is fine, because the .d files only matters if the .o files already exist
2024-09-29T03:49:04 < zyp> and then they're only taken into account the next time you run make
2024-09-29T03:50:30 < zyp> with modules it's different, because the compiler is now also generating .gcm files along with the .o files, and those can depend on other .gcm files
2024-09-29T03:50:53 < zyp> so I need the .d files before compiling anything, so I can get everything in the correct order
2024-09-29T03:51:45 < zyp> can make do that without invoking it twice?
2024-09-29T04:08:17 < vampi__> they've added modules to C++?
2024-09-29T04:08:33 < vampi__> time to stop coding
2024-09-29T04:08:47 < vampi__> might as well become a savage and eat wild animals raw
2024-09-29T04:08:52 < vampi__> it's over
2024-09-29T04:08:57 < vampi__> it has never been so over
2024-09-29T04:11:26 < vampi__> you might get away with writing your own exporter, I think
2024-09-29T04:11:47 < vampi__> oh but you need them before compiling anything
2024-09-29T04:12:25 < vampi__> maybe there's some kind of source analyzer? I'm assuming that the .d files are just based on the #include statements, nothing more
2024-09-29T04:12:35 < vampi__> so you might as well write a small script that parses the #include
2024-09-29T04:12:41 < vampi__> or maybe cpp does that for you?
2024-09-29T04:14:53 < vampi__> yeah it looks like it does with -MM
2024-09-29T04:15:10 < vampi__> http://img.vampi.tech/24fca5f2.png
2024-09-29T04:15:53 < vampi__> you could try running g++ with -MM and also cpp with -MM and see if there's any difference between their outputs
2024-09-29T04:17:26 < vampi__> im out
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2024-09-29T04:30:25 < ColdKeyboard> Does anyone know if W5500 ETH module is capable of listening to DHCP DISCOVER messages?
2024-09-29T04:31:06 < ColdKeyboard> Or even better, have an example handy for listening to UDP Broadcast message at 255.255.255.255
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2024-09-29T09:18:18 < jpa-> ColdKeyboard: this seems pretty close to what you want? https://docs.wiznet.io/Product/iEthernet/W5500/Application/udp
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2024-09-29T12:44:51 < ventYl> zyp: ah, this: https://cmake.org/cmake/help/latest/manual/cmake-cxxmodules.7.html explains a lot. two-pass is probably not an option with modules
2024-09-29T12:45:48 < ventYl> apparently CMake + Ninja somehow works
2024-09-29T12:53:44 < zyp> yeah, but fuck cmake :)
2024-09-29T12:57:14 < zyp> anyway, cmake's approach is similar to mine, except I don't use ninja but handle that part internally
2024-09-29T12:58:29 < ventYl> isn't that part exactly the root of your current problems?
2024-09-29T12:58:45 < zyp> what problems?
2024-09-29T12:59:09 < ventYl> change in one translation unit causes rebuild of every other, or something similar?
2024-09-29T13:01:36 < zyp> ah, nah, that'll just be an issue with how I've set up task dependencies in pytodo
2024-09-29T13:01:43 < zyp> pydoit*
2024-09-29T13:03:39 < zyp> it looks like doit thinks that if the collect_deps task runs, then all the compile tasks have to rerun too, but they should only do so if the output of collect_deps changes in a significant manner
2024-09-29T13:05:08 < ventYl> you seem to really be duplicating of what CMake does with make and ninja :>
2024-09-29T13:10:46 < zyp> yeah, I mean, the obvious alternative to what I'm doing is generating a makefile or a build.ninja and let it do the execution
2024-09-29T13:11:26 < zyp> but there's a couple of reasons I don't want to do that
2024-09-29T13:12:18 < ventYl> like?
2024-09-29T13:14:28 < zyp> handling the whole logic around when that file needs to be generated
2024-09-29T13:15:32 < zyp> and also I like being able to have rules that executes python functions rather than shell commands
2024-09-29T13:16:29 < ventYl> yeah, sometimes I need the latter too
2024-09-29T13:19:06 < ventYl> still the approach that the build system is declarative rather than imperative works the best for me
2024-09-29T13:19:24 < ventYl> if you start dragging too much of imperative stuff in, things get complicated fast
2024-09-29T13:20:13 < ventYl> so even if I have some functions, their output usually is change of target properties or something similar
2024-09-29T13:20:23 < ventYl> so the overall product may still be considered declarative one
2024-09-29T13:20:32 < zyp> I mean, I'm coming from scons here, in scons I have a jinja builder that let me make rules that says «take this template file, fill it with this data and emit this file», and then scons will look at the template and the data I feed it, and rerun the task if either changed
2024-09-29T13:22:00 < zyp> I'm using this to generate peripheral instances and linker scripts and stuff, based on a declarative platform definition and build options
2024-09-29T13:24:00 < zyp> e.g. if I'm changing memory options, scons will see that linker scripts needs to be regenerated, and that further causes executables to get relinked
2024-09-29T13:24:06 < zyp> without recompiling anything
2024-09-29T13:24:23 < ventYl> that's fairly trivial to be done even with bare make
2024-09-29T13:25:11 < zyp> how?
2024-09-29T13:27:24 < ventYl> just create target named as one of your source/header files you want to generate add template and data files as dependencies and provide command that runs the generator
2024-09-29T13:28:02 < ventYl> make will then automatically generate that file whenever it doesn't exist and/or template or data files are newer than the generated file
2024-09-29T13:29:30 < zyp> and before making the data file, I'd then also have to look at the existing contents and leave it untouched if it's unchanged
2024-09-29T13:30:09 < zyp> IIRC I've done similar make rules before to update a git-revision header or similar only if it changed
2024-09-29T13:30:21 < ventYl> that's the matter of the tool which generates the data file
2024-09-29T13:30:29 < ventYl> well out of scope of gnu make
2024-09-29T13:31:41 < zyp> yeah, that's why scons is much nicer, because scons also looks at task outputs
2024-09-29T13:32:26 < ventYl> I mean, you can write a generator tool in python which generates the output and then compares it with existing content. if it is same then it skips overwriting it.
2024-09-29T13:32:30 < ventYl> not a rocket science
2024-09-29T13:32:37 < ventYl> linker script molester does this
2024-09-29T13:33:09 < ventYl> unfortunately the automatic realignment of data to make MPU happy must be a two-pass process
2024-09-29T13:34:00 < zyp> if scons e.g. recompiles an object because of a trivial change, and the output ends up identical, scons will detect that and if no other objects changed it'll skip linking
2024-09-29T13:34:30 < zyp> because it looks at contents, not just timestamps
2024-09-29T13:34:37 < ventYl> there is a post-build task that examines map file and calculates sizes of MPU protected regions. then it recalculates region alignment as next larger power of two. if it is different than previous alignment then it updates the linker file
2024-09-29T13:34:43 < ventYl> if not, linker file update is avoided
2024-09-29T13:35:04 < ventYl> to make sure that nobody will try to load misaligned binary, as the very last step it deletes the output binary if linker scripts were updated
2024-09-29T13:35:17 < zyp> and yes, you can have every single tool you call compare its output to any existing file, but it's easier to have that logic in the build system than in every tool
2024-09-29T13:35:53 < ventYl> isn't that a task for ccache?
2024-09-29T13:39:44 < ventYl> anyway, I can't say that this is a feature I would need too often. maybe with modules it becomes much more important as sources are bound together much closer
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--- Day changed ma syys 30 2024
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2024-09-30T01:06:46 < karlp1> qyx: look, it's even cooler: https://tinyurl.com/25ap7c5k
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2024-09-30T20:17:34 < karlp1> fucking fedex fail again
2024-09-30T20:17:40 < karlp1> i fucking hate those useless cunts
2024-09-30T20:17:51 < karlp1> 30 minutes warning witha  "we're delivering in 30 minutes"
2024-09-30T20:17:56 < karlp1> "we failed to deliver"
2024-09-30T20:18:13 < karlp1> no "where can I update d3elivery, where can I schedule, where to take alternatives" 
2024-09-30T20:18:23 < karlp1> just "lol, fuck you"
2024-09-30T20:20:13 < Steffanx> I feel terribly sorry for your mr karlp1 
2024-09-30T20:23:46 < Steffanx> -r
2024-09-30T20:37:28 < jbo> Steffanx
2024-09-30T20:37:34 < Steffanx> jbo
2024-09-30T20:40:09 < jbo> how are you?
2024-09-30T20:40:40 < Steffanx> Same same :P And you?
2024-09-30T20:40:54 < jbo> most phenomenal
2024-09-30T20:41:51 < Steffanx> Im glad to hear that. How did that happen?
2024-09-30T20:44:59 < jbo> was thinking of you
2024-09-30T20:52:07 < Steffanx> oh dear
2024-09-30T20:52:11 < Steffanx> Will i be alright?
2024-09-30T21:08:48 < jbo> do you want to be?
2024-09-30T21:09:08 < Steffanx> Always.
2024-09-30T21:09:18 < jbo> (:
2024-09-30T21:10:43 < Steffanx> And you?
2024-09-30T21:12:33 < Steffanx> I read that, after stealing our gold, you are now trying to steal some Italian land, jbo . When does it stop?
2024-09-30T21:13:18 < jbo> wat?
2024-09-30T21:15:28 < Steffanx> The border is/was the top of a mountain, but now the glacier is melting so the top moved a few 100 meters into Italy... Swissers wants the new border to be at the current top of the mountain.
2024-09-30T21:19:05 < Steffanx> https://www.srf.ch/news/schweiz/zu-italien-und-frankreich-im-wallis-und-in-genf-werden-die-landesgrenzen-angepasst
2024-09-30T21:21:20 < jbo> nothing special, that happens every few years.
2024-09-30T21:21:44 < Steffanx> lol party pooper :P
2024-09-30T21:24:50 < jpa-> karlp1: i had left my bike on the porch, fedex was unable to deliver :)
2024-09-30T21:25:04 < jpa-> apparently they couldn't fit around it
2024-09-30T21:25:06 < jbo> bq25756 bike block?
2024-09-30T21:25:15 < jbo> jpa-, oh, you're being serious?
2024-09-30T21:25:19 < jpa-> we do not talk about bq25756
2024-09-30T21:25:29 < Steffanx> jpa- is always serious.. he is finnish
2024-09-30T21:25:56 < jpa-> to be honest, it kinda was in the way
2024-09-30T21:26:10 < Steffanx> Must be a huuge porch
2024-09-30T21:26:34 < jpa-> if it was huge, it would be easy to walk around a bike :)
2024-09-30T21:26:46 < Steffanx> So imagine walking 2 meters..
2024-09-30T21:27:04 < jbo> the earth isn't flat everywhere, Steffanx 
2024-09-30T21:27:38 < jpa-> on one side is a wall, on another side a bush
2024-09-30T21:27:47 < Steffanx> ah, that makes more sense
2024-09-30T21:28:12 < Steffanx> Im sorry to hear that jpa- 
2024-09-30T21:28:15 < jpa-> i did somehow get in myself without much trouble though :)
2024-09-30T21:28:27 < jbo> jpa-, was it spare parts for the one we don't talk about?
2024-09-30T21:28:52 < jpa-> no, it wasn't
2024-09-30T21:29:53 < jbo> let me know when you want to talk about it
2024-09-30T21:30:14 < Steffanx> You're not being helpful jbo 
2024-09-30T21:31:19 < jbo> at least I try to be helpful
2024-09-30T21:31:29 < Steffanx> Im glad you feel that way
2024-09-30T21:31:34 < jbo> jpa-, don't listen to Steffanx - there's always a special place in my heart for you. he's just jealous
2024-09-30T21:32:03 < Steffanx> Nah, he can have jbo.
2024-09-30T21:33:28 < jbo> guys
2024-09-30T21:33:31 < jbo> stop it
2024-09-30T21:34:13 < Steffanx> Hi jbo, How is your day?
2024-09-30T21:34:41 < jbo> oh - suddenly you care?
2024-09-30T21:34:49 < Steffanx> <3
2024-09-30T21:34:57 < jbo> <3
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2024-09-30T22:12:35 < ventYl> dafuq
2024-09-30T22:12:42 < ventYl> kuba isn't just java
2024-09-30T22:12:47 < ventYl> kuba is java that runs chromium
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2024-09-30T22:36:09 < Steffanx> More and more reason to love it, ventYl 
2024-09-30T22:37:55 < ventYl> yeah
2024-09-30T22:38:21 < ventYl> anyway, I just managed to successfully execute tinyusb (almost) completely in the userspace
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--- Log closed ti loka 01 00:00:29 2024