--- Log opened ti loka 01 00:00:29 2024
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2024-10-01T13:50:29 < jpa-> heh, i was impressed how nicely chatgpt gave me customized code for ESP32 MCPWM
2024-10-01T13:50:46 < jpa-> turns out it is just a slight modification of an example found from github, with a few bugs added
2024-10-01T13:54:02 < ventYl> at least you still can bill some hours on removing those bugs
2024-10-01T13:54:41 < ventYl> This looks impressive at first glimpse: https://embedd.it/ Yet I did not examine it beyond the demo
2024-10-01T13:54:55 < ventYl> Still, ability to parse any useful information out of rendered PDF is impressive.
2024-10-01T14:31:00 < machinehum> I'll often c/p from a pdf right into a llm
2024-10-01T14:31:31 < machinehum> Paste in the entire pdf, and it questions and then request the page numbers so I can double check
2024-10-01T14:31:44 < machinehum> Ask it questions*
2024-10-01T14:33:45 < jbo> jpa-, did you ever dare to ask it about he who shall not be named?
2024-10-01T14:42:37 < jpa-> ok, i'm gonna ignore that jbo dude
2024-10-01T14:58:09 < qyx> jay-bee-oh is back
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2024-10-01T17:51:13 < machinehum> Has anyone noticed high resistance in a bearing block even after greasing the fucker?
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2024-10-01T22:36:39 < PlasmaHH> Hi, I am a bit confused with SWO and openocd and all that stuff... trying to get it to work on a U5A5 nucleo with openocd and am a bit confused about -pin-freq and -traceclk parameters... openocd returns some data but its garbage and repeating patterns which makes me think that the timing is somewhat wrong...
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--- Day changed ke loka 02 2024
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2024-10-02T09:59:01 < qyx> so when we have mcus with megabytes of wham today, has anyone considered running more complex filesystems on stm32?
2024-10-02T10:00:23 < qyx> and a related question, whatwould be the go-to technology for very low power, stm32, write only, terabyte+ storage?
2024-10-02T10:00:56 < qyx> currently considering an array of emmcs, which gets a bit expensive
2024-10-02T10:17:27 < jpa-> terabyte SD cards are not that expensive
2024-10-02T10:18:54 < jpa-> add some low power eeprom to buffer writes so that you can write a few kilobytes at a time
2024-10-02T10:24:47 < qyx> yeaj I plan to add 2 1MB buffers in the sram
2024-10-02T10:25:19 < qyx> but but a board with 20 microsd cards would look silly
2024-10-02T10:28:22 < jpa-> you need 20 TB storage?
2024-10-02T10:30:15 < jpa-> at that point just add a usb-sata interface chip and use 20 TB HDDs
2024-10-02T10:38:25 < qyx> itis a pity m.2 sata is EOL
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2024-10-02T11:27:51 < ventYl> that would still be in 4k eur price range 
2024-10-02T11:27:57 < ventYl> probably even more expensive
2024-10-02T11:57:25 < zyp> you get usb-nvme interface chips too
2024-10-02T11:58:38 < zyp> I have a 2TB nvme in an external enclosure with a chip that does usb3 gen2x2 somewhere
2024-10-02T12:05:39 < zyp> how about 61TB in U.2? :)
2024-10-02T12:05:44 < zyp> https://www.solidigm.com/products/data-center/d5/p5336.html
2024-10-02T12:09:04 < qyx> zyp: but isn't that usb-ss?
2024-10-02T12:09:45 < qyx> stm32 is happy if it does hs
2024-10-02T12:11:02 < zyp> I fully expect any serious usb3 mass storage chip to fall back to usb2
2024-10-02T12:11:31 < qyx> cough
2024-10-02T12:11:32 < zyp> (without losing functionality)
2024-10-02T12:12:04 < zyp> as in, mass storage is a use case really suited to best effort
2024-10-02T12:12:26 < zyp> if you're limited to a slower interface, you can just slow down and keep going
2024-10-02T12:12:36 < zyp> unlike e.g. usb3 video stuff
2024-10-02T12:16:10 < zyp> wait, wat
2024-10-02T12:16:31 < zyp> according to the beagle, this thing came up in FS mode
2024-10-02T12:16:54 < qyx> and then what
2024-10-02T12:17:09 < qyx> do you have ss beagle?
2024-10-02T12:17:25 < qyx> so it is fs or ss, but not hs/ss?
2024-10-02T12:18:49 < zyp> hmm, no, it came up in HS when I connected it directly to the computer with a usb2-only cable
2024-10-02T12:20:09 < zyp> it's a cable thing, comes up in HS with the beagle too when i use a shorter cable
2024-10-02T12:23:31 < qyx> so you are saying I can use usb host on stm32, usb to pcie bridge and some sort of a crosspoint switch for single lane+clock muxing?
2024-10-02T12:24:00 < qyx> not even crosspoint, a mux is enough
2024-10-02T12:24:37 < zyp> I'd suspect dedicated bridge chips per ssd after a usb2 hub is cheaper
2024-10-02T12:24:45 < zyp> or usb2 mux for that matter
2024-10-02T12:25:30 < zyp> but yeah, this thing I've got clearly supports both FS and HS, in addition to SS
2024-10-02T12:25:34 < qyx> not a dedicated pcie switch, a simple analol mux
2024-10-02T12:25:38 < qyx> or even rf mux
2024-10-02T12:26:16 < qyx> usb-ss 1:2 mux could work too
2024-10-02T12:26:29 < qyx> and I could do a tree of them to avoid stubs
2024-10-02T12:26:41 < zyp> muxing one lane of usb2 is cheaper than muxing four lanes of pcie
2024-10-02T12:26:52 < qyx> why 4
2024-10-02T12:27:02 < zyp> nvme
2024-10-02T12:27:06 < qyx> it should work wig a single lane only
2024-10-02T12:27:10 < zyp> true
2024-10-02T12:27:24 < qyx> still two pairs thouh
2024-10-02T12:27:30 < zyp> three if you count clock
2024-10-02T12:27:48 < qyx> oh three
2024-10-02T12:29:04 < zyp> you could use this: https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/MAX4999.pdf
2024-10-02T12:29:25 < zyp> that's what I've got in my testrack thing
2024-10-02T12:31:33 < zyp> https://www.asmedia.com.tw/product/Ee1YQF9sX7yyajH5/C5cYq34qpByQ6jm6
2024-10-02T12:31:45 < zyp> I think my enclosure has the ASM2364
2024-10-02T12:34:03 < zyp> seems unobtanium through regular channels though
2024-10-02T13:16:57 < qyx> i'll wait until ST makes a usb-pcie bridge
2024-10-02T13:17:16 < qyx> (as I am waiting for their mipi-csi to parallel one)
2024-10-02T13:40:40 < karlp1> why would you be switching usb lines when you have usb?
2024-10-02T13:40:45 < karlp1> just hub?
2024-10-02T13:43:09 < karlp1> I mean, even just 1|4 cascades of a chepa china 4 port HS hub will get you 64 device ports.
2024-10-02T13:45:36 < karlp1> 17 FE1.1S's is only like ~$10 in parts...
2024-10-02T13:49:12 < karlp1> and if you want sd cards, gl and alcor and shit have plenty of usb to sd card shits.
2024-10-02T14:01:04 < qyx> because that means there would be many usb ports and hubs active at the same time and more importantly I would need 64 usb-pcie chips which are definitely more expensive than usb hubs/muxes
2024-10-02T14:01:15 < qyx> the whole assembly would be 20 watts instead of 100 mW max
2024-10-02T14:01:42 < qyx> anyway, the price doesn't matter, but consumption does
2024-10-02T14:02:24 < qyx> with emmc I can get to 150 uA per chip and multiplex the bus
2024-10-02T14:02:46 < qyx> if I feel more adventurous I could mux in software using the right command (tm)
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2024-10-02T14:31:06 < karlp1> usb-pcie? usb-sd direct?
2024-10-02T14:31:28 < karlp1> if  you're doing usb-pcie, so you can stick on harddrives, just buy a bigger drive?
2024-10-02T14:31:37 < karlp1> but you want low power, not spinning rust
2024-10-02T14:31:51 < karlp1> muxing emmc sounds very precious
2024-10-02T14:32:08 < karlp1> anyway, trying to convert a .eps into a .svg/dxf to import into kicad.
2024-10-02T14:32:57 < karlp1> inkscape import has eps/ps both greyed out.  web results talk about this being an inkscape faq, inkscape wiki faq links to a "frequanetly asked questions" page which is blank.
2024-10-02T14:36:05 < karlp1> turns out the fucking flatpak that got installed doesn't have the ghostscript required bits in it.
2024-10-02T14:36:23 < karlp1> uninstalled, reinstalled from rpm and it works straight away
2024-10-02T14:36:42 < qyx> every time i tried to use one of those paks I got into problems
2024-10-02T14:45:25 < qyx> so on a semi related topic, talking to my AI friend about NAND flash refresh
2024-10-02T14:46:00 < qyx> it says JEDEC specifies 10-30 day refresh interval for consumer grade product
2024-10-02T14:46:58 < qyx> but the actual question is how long should be the power applied
2024-10-02T14:57:30 < karlp1> filed and "fixed" back in 2020. https://github.com/flathub/org.inkscape.Inkscape/issues/19
2024-10-02T14:57:33 < karlp1> perfect
2024-10-02T15:34:24 < karlp1> yay. flathub:org.inkscape.Inkscape works.  rpm inkscape works. fedora regsitry flatpak: org.inkscape.Inkscape fails.
2024-10-02T15:34:31 < karlp1> any, moving on :)
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2024-10-02T15:44:19 < karlp1> anyone know a useful screenshot + pen/annotate thing for wayland? built in lets me do regions and shit nicely, but I want to scribble on it before I send sometimes.
2024-10-02T15:44:26 < karlp1> and all the other options seem to be x11 only?
2024-10-02T16:17:54 < karlp1> (I have now setup swappy to run with a keyboard shortcut on the latest system snapshot.  this is... sufficient)
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2024-10-02T17:39:58 < Ecco> Ok, fun question: I'm trying to receive values from a BLE thermometer that I put outside (probably about 10m away from PC)
2024-10-02T17:40:46 < Ecco> I can receive data rather well with my phone, but my PC misses a *lot* of data (temperature data is simply embedded in BLE advertisments - AFAIK there is no pairing involved)
2024-10-02T17:41:14 < Ecco> Since the phone works well but the PC doesn't, I came to the conclusion that the cheap USB-bluetooth adapter I put in my PC is at fault
2024-10-02T17:41:31 < Ecco> It's one of those super small ones - are those known to have terrible range?
2024-10-02T17:41:38 < Ecco> Would one with an external antenna work better?
2024-10-02T17:56:21 < karlp1> no, this is pc stacks are wildly different from android stacks.
2024-10-02T17:56:39 < karlp1> what are you using on the pc to catch the advertisements?
2024-10-02T18:02:08 < Ecco> bluez
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2024-10-02T18:02:17 < Ecco> and homeassistant
2024-10-02T18:02:20 < Ecco> on linux
2024-10-02T18:03:44 < karlp1> you can use btmon to see if it's _really_ missing them,or just being suppressed by bluez being "helpful"
2024-10-02T18:04:05 < karlp1> I mean, yes, a better antenna helps, but the HA integration works well enough for me.
2024-10-02T18:04:31 < karlp1> when you say "a lot" what sort of rates are you hoping for, and what are you getting?
2024-10-02T18:05:25 < Ecco> ok, I'm going to look at btmo
2024-10-02T18:05:36 < Ecco> Oh, the difference is *massive*
2024-10-02T18:05:44 < Ecco> My phone will pick up advertisements in seconds
2024-10-02T18:05:52 < Ecco> the linux box can go several hours without seeing one
2024-10-02T18:07:05 < Ecco> Here's the kind of dongle I'm using on the PC : https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0D9STYBXM/
2024-10-02T18:10:35 < Ecco> ok, so btmon doesn't see any advertisements
2024-10-02T19:01:00 < karlp1> you have a sensor that advertises that often? cute.
2024-10-02T19:01:19 < karlp1> ok, maybe a new dongle then :)
2024-10-02T19:01:27 < karlp1> yeah, sudo btmon should absolutely spew data.
2024-10-02T19:05:31 < karlp1> https://ukbaz.github.io/howto/beacon_scan_cmd_line.html is pretty reasonable debug steps
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2024-10-02T19:19:40 < BrainDamage> that sounds a bit hollow, coming from switzerland
2024-10-02T19:22:05 < Ecco> karlp1: I mean, I would say the sensor advertises probably once per minute
2024-10-02T19:22:13 < Ecco> It's a thermometer powered by two AAA batteries
2024-10-02T19:30:29 < Steffanx> wottsch puff jbo
2024-10-02T19:30:51 < karlp1> right, you phone is just picking up all the other stuff
2024-10-02T19:31:05 < karlp1> which you want your pc to pick up as well...
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2024-10-02T19:33:30 < Steffanx> Welcome
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--- Day changed to loka 03 2024
2024-10-03T00:27:57 < PlasmaHH> So I have so far been unseccessful in getting swo to work properly on a u5a5 nucleo board and have no idea what I am doing wrong, possibly some hardware configuration? I can see almost correct data on the line but it looks like always the last bit of the payload byte is 0 no matter the byte I am giving to ITM_SendChar ... 
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2024-10-03T02:42:50 < karlp1> you need to share some actual details about your config
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2024-10-03T06:00:40 < NEYi> Damn, that feeling when the last time I programmed STM32s - was like in 2016. :)
2024-10-03T06:00:49 < NEYi> Probably everything changed now.
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2024-10-03T08:43:19 < jpa-> nothing has really changed
2024-10-03T08:53:43 < qyx> he prices, availability dropped temporarily, we are clicking cube more than doig the actual programming work
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2024-10-03T08:56:46 < antto> <cubism_intensifies.jpg>
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2024-10-03T09:41:17 < qyx> checking jlc, my package is stuck in DE since Oct 29th
2024-10-03T09:41:31 < qyx> have the strikes spread so much?
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2024-10-03T10:40:24 < Steffanx> I knew it.. qyx is from the future
2024-10-03T10:48:59 < qyx> $ ls -lah /dev/ttyUSB*
2024-10-03T10:48:59 < qyx> crw-rw----  1 root dialout 188, 0 Oct  3 09:47 /dev/ttyUSB0
2024-10-03T10:48:59 < qyx> crw-rw----+ 1 root plugdev 188, 1 Oct  1 12:09 /dev/ttyUSB1
2024-10-03T10:49:03 < qyx> whyyy
2024-10-03T11:00:58 < qyx> so i am now in the realm of barcode readers
2024-10-03T11:01:50 < qyx> dark and gloomy
2024-10-03T11:02:01 < qyx> traps on every single step
2024-10-03T11:02:30 < qyx> who the hell can even consider putting a negative pole in the center of a barrel jack
2024-10-03T11:06:45 < Steffanx> You're welcome.
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2024-10-03T12:01:06 < machinehum> heh center negative
2024-10-03T12:39:06 < karlp1> so that was fun.
2024-10-03T12:39:27 < karlp1> if your ethernetinterface gets an IP via dhcp, but is otherwise unrouteable,
2024-10-03T12:39:30 < karlp1> even if wifi works.
2024-10-03T12:39:36 < karlp1> firefox _won't even start_
2024-10-03T12:39:48 < karlp1> chrony just says "no sources"
2024-10-03T12:39:54 < karlp1> wild
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2024-10-03T14:03:15 < karlp1> also fun. "cksum" on my computer doesn't give the same resultsa s python zlib or binutils or any online utils, _or_ wha tthis guys has: https://github.com/Michaelangel007/crc32/blob/master/README.md
2024-10-03T14:03:30 < karlp1> even though they use "cksum" and get the answer I expect, but don't get from _my_ cksum
2024-10-03T14:03:37 < karlp1> their cksum has different options too whee
2024-10-03T15:32:40 < ventYl> and mosst probably even different starting value :>
2024-10-03T15:33:21 < ventYl> i always enjoy search for the one and only true CRC16 initial value
2024-10-03T15:54:46 < karlp1> heh. .init and .fini were in the elf, but not grabbed into "text" by the linker script
2024-10-03T15:55:18 < karlp1> they were unused, so no problems, but ended up as zero in the "bin" that was just text+data but as 0xffffffff (-1) when loaded via elf.
2024-10-03T15:55:22 < karlp1> excelllllent.
2024-10-03T15:55:39 < karlp1> we're slowly massaging this old corpose into more standardized environments.
2024-10-03T16:04:45 < ventYl> how does one write linker script that won't pick something from .text? or just the symbol wasn't defined?
2024-10-03T16:10:10 < karlp1> newlib labels them as .init and .fini
2024-10-03T16:10:19 < karlp1> linker script didn't place them in .text
2024-10-03T16:10:44 < karlp1> so gdb load would do "loading section .text 123234 bytes; loading section .init (4 bytes); loading section .fini (4 bytes)"
2024-10-03T16:10:56 < karlp1> but the objcopy to "binary" jsut grabbed text+data
2024-10-03T16:11:12 < karlp1> so it had zeros for those 8 bytes.
2024-10-03T16:12:19 < karlp1> I don't _quite_ know where .init and .fini come from.  libopencm3 for instance doesn't define them
2024-10-03T16:12:26 < ventYl> ah, KEEP(*(.init)) was missing
2024-10-03T16:12:27 < karlp1> but... works now?
2024-10-03T16:12:45 < karlp1> yeah, I added keep(*(.init)) to my main text section 
2024-10-03T16:13:38 < ventYl> .init and .fini are definitely not a broadly used stuff. it is just some C runtime stuff that's kept around and IIRC, C++ constructors and destructors for global variables  are built on top of this
2024-10-03T16:13:39 < karlp1> like https://github.com/libopencm3/libopencm3/blob/master/lib/cortex-m-generic.ld doesn't seem to need them...
2024-10-03T16:14:10 < karlp1> yeah, well, other platforms here had the keep, now I've got it too, and now I have build time calcualted CRC matching runtime CRC
2024-10-03T16:14:29 < karlp1> (also had to fix the same reversing shit for the kinetis crc periph as the stm32 one needs)
2024-10-03T16:14:39 < karlp1> glad I've done this a few times before.... :)
2024-10-03T16:15:07 < ventYl> stuff ran there has its own problems, because it runs before main
2024-10-03T16:15:58 < ventYl> i don't really remember seeing it used if it wasn't some LD_PRELOAD-style hack of your average Linux-based WiFi router from late 2000s and early '00s
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2024-10-03T21:44:07 < PlasmaHH> anyone happens to have a small project for a U575, U5A5, L4, H5, G0 or C0 nucleo that successfully can use SWO?
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--- Day changed pe loka 04 2024
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2024-10-04T00:39:22 < zyp> certainly not for G0 or C0
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2024-10-04T01:23:00 < qyx> all CADs can just ..
2024-10-04T01:23:05 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/PO9bG/Screenshot_2024-10-04_00-21-24.png
2024-10-04T01:23:13 < qyx> used kicad to draw this
2024-10-04T01:24:04 < qyx> (before I tried qcad, then inkscape)
2024-10-04T01:24:17 < qyx> this was literally 10x faster and looks much better
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2024-10-04T02:42:09 < lemmi> qyx: solvespace is a good fit for simple stuff like this imho
2024-10-04T02:43:42 < karlp1> plasma keeps coming and going with no actual details.
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2024-10-04T20:22:08 < Steffanx> Lol. Even PowerPoint and Word can do that qyx 😝
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--- Day changed la loka 05 2024
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--- Day changed su loka 06 2024
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2024-10-06T00:15:37 < vampirefrog> working on my usb descriptor dumper
2024-10-06T00:15:54 < vampirefrog> it's like lsusb -v -d but it outputs JSON and some more info
2024-10-06T00:16:05 < vampirefrog> trying to make it monitor for new devices with udev
2024-10-06T00:16:19 < vampirefrog> which works fine but I can't capture CTRL+C when piping to tee for some reason
2024-10-06T00:16:41 < vampirefrog> so I had ChatGPT generate me a program that captures all the signals
2024-10-06T00:17:09 < vampirefrog> and that one does work, so now I'm bringing my program down to parity with the example one and see where it messes up
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2024-10-06T01:38:07 < vampirefrog> aight looks like I was generating a segv in a printf
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2024-10-06T03:06:25 < vampirefrog> https://git.vampi.tech/vampi/usbdesc/src/branch/master/programs/getdesc.c
2024-10-06T03:06:43 < vampirefrog> aight I made it print out all the devices in JSON format, and also wait for new devices if you pass -w to it
2024-10-06T03:07:38 < vampirefrog> still needs to be run as root tho
2024-10-06T03:07:49 < vampirefrog> or maybe the current user needs some kind of permission for libusb
2024-10-06T03:13:52 < vampirefrog> anyway people can run this and verify and just pastebin all the JSON, without needing API access
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2024-10-06T22:44:38 < qyx> hello sunshines
2024-10-06T22:46:07 < qyx> imagine I have an object with a ADC channel attached, it is defined by a ADC reference and a channel number
2024-10-06T22:46:22 < qyx> now, how would I handle interrupts in this scenario
2024-10-06T22:46:38 < qyx> ADC1 interrupt occurs and I don't know which object initiated the conversion
2024-10-06T22:47:45 < qyx> I can use a filthy global for that, but then I don't know *which* object the isr belongs to
2024-10-06T22:50:49 < veverak> you should
2024-10-06T22:51:28 < veverak> it should be trivial to have bunch of global instnaces of object, tell it what channel/isr it should use and at the same file define interrupt function that calls something on it
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--- Day changed ma loka 07 2024
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2024-10-07T02:00:14 < qyx> what could happen if I connect 5v0 to an ADC input
2024-10-07T02:00:18 < qyx> over 4k7
2024-10-07T02:00:48 < qyx> maybe I broke it, it reports 4095 even when the voltage is 1.2 V on one input
2024-10-07T02:08:08 < qyx> looks like the whole adc is fried
2024-10-07T02:08:21 < qyx> ADC1 and 2 works, ADC3 is broken
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2024-10-07T08:23:49 < jpa-> qyx: if it was on 3V-tolerant pin, it would tolerate 5V would a resistor; but on a 5V-tolerant pin it won't
2024-10-07T08:29:56 < qyx> jpa-: nvm, I did "+4095" instead of "*4095" when displaying, now it says 0 which is correct
2024-10-07T08:30:28 < qyx> also, I didn't quite understand what you said
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2024-10-07T08:46:44 < jpa-> 3V-tolerant pins have ESD diodes that clamp to VDD, so it is fine to inject current
2024-10-07T08:46:51 < jpa-> 5V-tolerant pins don't clamp
2024-10-07T08:47:10 < jpa-> (which doesn't guarantee that it will burn)
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2024-10-07T10:47:44 < qyx> oh yeah
2024-10-07T10:48:37 < qyx> I was dumb, yeah, it is the other way around
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2024-10-07T12:59:44 < qyx> now I have 0 on all channels
2024-10-07T13:11:12 < jpa-> it has become digital to digital converter
2024-10-07T13:14:22 < qyx> stuck in adc_power_on, it needs a small delay between end of the calibration and setting ADEN
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2024-10-07T13:50:53 < karlp1> that sounds familiar.
2024-10-07T14:02:25 < qyx> but it looks like it measures bs, like 0.6 V instead of 0.7 V
2024-10-07T14:02:45 < qyx> tried different sampling times, there is a 100n cap to ground
2024-10-07T14:02:52 < qyx> sampling once a second
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2024-10-07T14:32:48 < qyx> ok now I have a 2.3 ohm short VDD to GND
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2024-10-07T15:09:10 < qyx> I broke my first stm32 ever
2024-10-07T15:09:14 < qyx> and I don't even know how
2024-10-07T15:22:43 < qyx> I just touched an ADC input with a DMM in my not-much-esd-safe workplace
2024-10-07T15:26:32 < qyx> and it broke?
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2024-10-07T16:26:13 < Steffanx> I'm sorry to hear that jbo
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2024-10-07T18:28:55 < jpa-> meh @ dhl
2024-10-07T18:29:25 < jpa-> jlcpcb shipping estimates had it faster than fedex (which usually takes 4 days).. well, now DHL says it will take them 7 days
2024-10-07T18:46:00 < qyx> I used eu shipping last week, it was 3 days from cn to de
2024-10-07T18:47:00 < jpa-> i guess their estimates are not to be trusted, europacket shows 9-12 days for me
2024-10-07T18:47:28 < jpa-> DHL Express Worldwide was supposed to be the fastest at 2-4 days
2024-10-07T18:58:13 < qyx> oh sorry I didnt finish the message
2024-10-07T18:58:36 < qyx> europacket is usually 2-3 days to de, then 2 days to sk
2024-10-07T18:59:09 < qyx> this time it was 4days to de, 7days de->sk
2024-10-07T18:59:28 < qyx> delayed by dhl in de
2024-10-07T19:00:11 < jpa-> i guess i'll try UPS the next time, they are fast with digikey packages
2024-10-07T19:02:15 < qyx> fedex was the most cheap and fast alternative for me
2024-10-07T19:02:22 < qyx> usa-sk is 2-3 days fedex
2024-10-07T19:02:28 < qyx> jlc to sk is 3-4 days
2024-10-07T19:02:45 < qyx> then I found out they charged 6-25e for each shipment
2024-10-07T19:03:29 < jpa-> extra on top of the shipping fee?
2024-10-07T19:03:30 < qyx> but the invoices weren't in the packages, they sent it as letters to a wrong address
2024-10-07T19:03:33 < qyx> yes
2024-10-07T19:03:44 < jpa-> yeah, they used to do that for "customs processing" here too
2024-10-07T19:03:48 < jpa-> then it was ruled illegal
2024-10-07T19:03:53 < qyx> really?
2024-10-07T19:04:11 < jpa-> yeah, now they have to offer an option to do the customs yourself for free
2024-10-07T19:07:57 < qyx> anyway, I concluded that 3-4days fedex vs 6-7 days europacket is definitely win for europacket
2024-10-07T19:08:03 < qyx> no customs, cheaper
2024-10-07T19:08:31 < qyx> also the last mile carrier for europacket can put it in a parcel locker
2024-10-07T19:08:33 < qyx> fedex cant
2024-10-07T19:08:58 < jpa-> here fedex leaves it at my door if i put a postit note on it :D
2024-10-07T19:11:12 < qyx> I don't have a door
2024-10-07T19:11:33 < jpa-> that should make it easier, they can just leave the packet in your lair
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2024-10-07T21:00:56 < zyp> IIRC DHL is like two days from JLC to me
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2024-10-07T21:19:15 < Steffanx> Dont forget to move your bicycle jpa- .
2024-10-07T21:19:28 < jpa-> i'll try not to
2024-10-07T21:21:44 < Steffanx> Thanks.
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2024-10-07T22:08:31 < qyx> today's linguistic section https://stackoverflow.com/questions/866837/plural-form-of-word-mutex
2024-10-07T22:08:40 < qyx> 'do you work with lunices?'
2024-10-07T22:09:22 < qyx> 'yeah I was just dealing with some pthread's mutices'
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2024-10-07T22:47:33 < Steffanx> lol qyxes
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2024-10-07T22:53:18 < karlp1> yeah, fedex here is worst possible service, highest fees.  
2024-10-07T23:10:15 < karlp1> is it just me, or is jlc 7628really shit stackup for doing usb on?
2024-10-07T23:12:22 < karlp1> none of the other stackups support economy pcba
2024-10-07T23:14:14 < karlp1> no colour in 4 lyaer either :|
2024-10-07T23:14:31 < qyx> you mean no cheap color?
2024-10-07T23:15:12 < qyx> I managed to not order half of the BOM somehow
2024-10-07T23:47:48 < karlp1> yeah, no cheap colour
--- Day changed ti loka 08 2024
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2024-10-08T01:11:53 < qyx> that's pretty sad, I like dark black boards
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2024-10-08T12:38:59 < machinehum> sup
2024-10-08T14:12:12 < Steffanx> Tha sky!
2024-10-08T14:12:32 < Steffanx> How's the sky in the land of the swiss?
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2024-10-08T14:51:01 < Steffanx> Troll? No why? Mr hum is in the land of the swiss right?
2024-10-08T14:51:19 < Steffanx> Did you just troll jbo?
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2024-10-08T14:56:13 < qyx> as usual
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2024-10-08T15:12:28 < Fleck> Steff never trolls!!!!1111oneoneone
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2024-10-08T15:39:34 < Steffanx> I love you all 😘
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2024-10-08T18:11:12 < karlp1> how do I get xout, -18446744071562067968 if my printf chunk is "xout %" PRId32 ?
2024-10-08T18:13:23 < karlp1> and int32_max is 2147483647 but I get getting values of 2147483649
2024-10-08T18:13:29 < karlp1> that's not how this is supposed to work.
2024-10-08T18:13:37 < karlp1> fuckin, 
2024-10-08T18:22:44 < qyx> entianness issue on a 64 bit system?
2024-10-08T18:47:26 < jpa-> and where does the comma come from!
2024-10-08T18:55:12 < karlp1> jpa-: the same place as the music...
2024-10-08T18:55:36 < karlp1> I've definitely got 64 bit systme compounding things here. trying to simulate failures that the 32bit target of interest has.
2024-10-08T18:55:55 < karlp1> seems to be mostly related to poorly defined right shift of integers though....
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--- Day changed ke loka 09 2024
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2024-10-09T15:00:19 < jbo> moin
2024-10-09T15:44:14 < Mangy_Dog> o/
2024-10-09T15:49:41 < jbo> no
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2024-10-09T16:28:21 < jpa-> dhl delivered in 2.5 days, though their tracking was convinced till the end that it would take 7
2024-10-09T16:30:21 < qyx> Learn about the impacts of Hurricane Helene and Hurricane Milton on FedEx services.
2024-10-09T16:30:25 < qyx> not gonna happen again
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2024-10-09T16:44:54 < jbo> jpa- are you on a consumer spree?
2024-10-09T16:45:19 < ventYl> sidequest completed
2024-10-09T16:56:39 < Steffanx> Yes jbo. Yes. Not no
2024-10-09T16:57:29 < jbo> no means no
2024-10-09T17:06:38 < Steffanx> I see. Hi Mr jbo
2024-10-09T17:06:44 < jbo> hi
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2024-10-09T17:31:54 < jbo> any LED pros around?
2024-10-09T17:32:21 < jbo> I need some blue SMD LED I can slap on a board which is "visible in daylight" from like 30cm away
2024-10-09T17:32:58 < jbo> I assume I'll need something > 100mcd?
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2024-10-09T18:13:23 < jpa-> being visible depends mostly on how bright the surroundings of the LED are
2024-10-09T18:13:33 < jpa-> put it on a black background and it will be visible easily
2024-10-09T18:13:50 < jbo> alright
2024-10-09T18:13:54 < jbo> I'm currently considering CLM4B-BKW-CUaVa353
2024-10-09T18:13:58 < jbo> is that a stupid idea?
2024-10-09T18:18:04 < jpa-> sunlight is 100000 lux, so about 0.4 lm hits the surface of the led; it is whitish-looking, let's say albedo 0.6, so 0.2 lm coming back, or 16 mcd
2024-10-09T18:18:16 < jpa-> so yeah, i guess 650 mcd will be visible
2024-10-09T18:18:42 < jbo> thank you sir
2024-10-09T18:39:12 < qyx> thats some serious math
2024-10-09T18:39:28 < jpa-> we call it multiplication
2024-10-09T18:39:51 < jpa-> and yes, it is serious, they don't even teach it until the 3rd grade
2024-10-09T18:44:16 < BrainDamage> unless that diode magically emit behind too, shouldn't the luminous intensity be twice that at least?
2024-10-09T18:45:21 < BrainDamage> 1 sr is a full sphere, normally leds emit only as a half sphere, making that 0.5sr
2024-10-09T18:46:00 < BrainDamage> I meant for the scattered light
2024-10-09T18:46:18 < BrainDamage> not that it changes order of magnitude, just wondering if my reasoning is wrong
2024-10-09T18:46:35 < jpa-> BrainDamage: hmm, you are correct, 6 steradians for halfsphere
2024-10-09T18:47:18 < jpa-> so 0.2 lm = 0.033 cd
2024-10-09T18:47:59 < jpa-> (scary division, no wonder i got it wrong, fortunately π = 3 and not some scary number)
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2024-10-09T18:50:35 < BrainDamage> also, even if they were somewhat close, the led would still be visible because they are lambertian emitters, having the output power decay with cos(angle) from the normal, while scattered light is ~uniform
2024-10-09T18:51:28 < BrainDamage> so most of the power is projected in front ... obviously
2024-10-09T18:52:17 < jpa-> and then there is the effect of wavelengths, led's energy is all in blue part of spectrum
2024-10-09T18:52:45 < jpa-> but on the other hand eye is more sensitive to the green, so i'm not sure if that makes the LED easier or harder to distinguish compared to the white
2024-10-09T18:53:04 < jpa-> but with more than 10x intensity difference, even color blind should be able to see it
2024-10-09T18:58:04 < jbo> :D
2024-10-09T18:59:25 < BrainDamage> too bad we cannot make brown leds
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2024-10-09T19:02:15 < BrainDamage> oh, and make sure to drive the blue led with 30mA or so
2024-10-09T19:03:00 < BrainDamage> you need to honor the unspoked rule of engineering that any blue indicator led needs to actively painful to look at
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2024-10-09T19:11:14 < jpa-> it should also blink
2024-10-09T19:11:49 < jpa-> and the light level must always be the maximum, even if the device is in a dark room
2024-10-09T19:12:11 < jpa-> you should also drive it with a constant current source to fool people who try to add extra series resistors
2024-10-09T19:15:57 < karlp1> so, attribute(used) says "yes, emit it" but gc-sections will still just go "lol, nope"
2024-10-09T19:15:59 < karlp1> helpful.
2024-10-09T19:17:39 < jpa-> i have used "externally_visible" but not sure if that works against gc-sections either
2024-10-09T19:18:01 < jpa-> you can always put KEEP() crap in linker script
2024-10-09T19:27:06 < karlp1> oh, it's just lyaers of shit.
2024-10-09T19:27:38 < karlp1> and then there's a fucking external "crc" calculation that writes into the binary after looking for the constants.
2024-10-09T19:27:55 < jbo> BrainDamage, that's actually the plan
2024-10-09T19:28:11 < karlp1> so there's a "normal" crc32 that is over the whole thing, and used to "verify" the _transfer_ was uncorrupted
2024-10-09T19:28:20 < jbo> jpa-, it has a constant current driver on it :)
2024-10-09T19:28:49 < karlp1> then there's this magic fucking "special" crc inside, with "special" init values to "verify" that it's a correct "signed"  image.
2024-10-09T19:28:55 < karlp1> metrology is a fucking joke.
2024-10-09T19:29:09 < karlp1> "not in the threat model"
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2024-10-09T20:38:08 < jbo> the LED discussion continues...
2024-10-09T20:38:24 < sauce> karlp1: attribute(keep) is for the linker iirc
2024-10-09T20:38:54 < sauce> explicitly putting it in the linker script might also do the trick
2024-10-09T20:39:06 < sauce> (but putting symbols in there obviously is extra maintenance burden)
2024-10-09T20:39:55 < jpa-> is there such a thing as attribute(keep)?
2024-10-09T20:40:08 < sauce> might be clang specific i dont remember
2024-10-09T20:42:10 < sauce> ive been targeting both gcc and clang/llvm in my stuff lately and there are so many fucking stupid little dances to do to get them to produce output with all the same sections and symbols
2024-10-09T20:53:47 < sauce> it's been quite illuminating to learn just how underspecified the linker script language is
2024-10-09T20:55:19 < fenugrec> q about AEC-Q100: for MLCCs, does that mean they would have less tendency to crack and/or fail short ? I actually don't know what Q100 implies beyond "automotive rated hence $$"
2024-10-09T20:59:08 < ventYl> sauce: IME linker generally ignores any __attribute__((keep)) and __attribute__((used)) if you pass -gc-sections and -ffunction-sections -fdata-sections
2024-10-09T21:01:08 < sauce> ah good to know
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2024-10-09T21:17:50 < ventYl> those two attributes are for compiler to force emission of the code even if it thinks that the function is not actually used. this might be useful for stuff being called externally by some weird runtime
2024-10-09T21:18:20 < ventYl> then the linker comes and with -ffunction-sections it tries to remove sections with unreferenced symbols
2024-10-09T21:18:33 < ventYl> so whatever compiler emitted will be optimized out by the linker
2024-10-09T21:20:46 < ventYl> with static libraries, this goes even further
2024-10-09T21:21:33 < ventYl> linker will ignore any library that does not provide any external unknown symbol
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2024-10-09T23:06:11 < karlp1> sauce: yeah, what ventyl said, attrib(used) successfully makes the "not used, would have been discarded by the compiler" happily get emitted into the objects.  it then gets happily garbage collected without a matching KEEP in the linker script.
2024-10-09T23:07:11 < karlp1> in my particular case, with code references to "constant" sections of an const init array, without keep, it's optimized inline, but once it's kept, the "not well optimized" reference then will no longer be garbage collected
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2024-10-10T12:30:11 < karlp1> today's beauty: malloc(sizeof(lowpass_t) * sizeof(char))
2024-10-10T12:38:04 < zyp> what
2024-10-10T12:48:44 < karlp1> indeed.
2024-10-10T12:57:56 -!- hexo_ [~hexo@user/hexo] has joined ##stm32
2024-10-10T13:00:57 < karlp1> it appears to be splatter from someone years back doing calloc(sizeof(struct), sizeof(char)) which is also dumb, and backwards, but hwatever
2024-10-10T13:01:13 < karlp1> and then for "reasons" it was turned into a malloc + memset, 
2024-10-10T13:01:25 < karlp1> and everyone seemed to hav ejust left their brains at the door.
2024-10-10T13:04:42 < qyx> were you hired to fix their stuff or make new stuff?
2024-10-10T13:05:41 < karlp1> someone had left for another job, and another guy had retired, so I was re-manning their team, they had a project that was "nearly finished" they needed to get out the door
2024-10-10T13:46:35 < qyx> oh, I know nearly finished projects
2024-10-10T14:42:04 < karlp1> so int64_t = int32_t + int32_t is unsafe without upcasting the args first. that's not what I expected.
2024-10-10T14:51:59 < sauce> did you at least get a warning
2024-10-10T14:52:46 < sauce> every time i mess with c i crave rust's integral type safety
2024-10-10T14:53:02 < sauce> (and every time i use rust i crave c's integral type flexibility)
2024-10-10T14:53:18 < karlp1> lol
2024-10-10T14:53:40 < sauce> programming sucks i hate it
2024-10-10T15:17:23 < jpa-> meh, USB-C works one way, doesn't activate the other way; another board works
2024-10-10T15:17:28 < jpa-> obviously a soldering or contact issue
2024-10-10T15:17:54 < jpa-> but: it also happens with a breakout interposer, and when i measure from the breakout, CC1 and CC2 both have 5.1 kohm to GND and no shorts to other pins
2024-10-10T15:20:30 < jpa-> hmm.. USB A-C cable also only works one way
2024-10-10T15:21:46 < jpa-> all GND pins and VBUS pins measure correctly
2024-10-10T15:23:26 < jpa-> with interposer and A-C cable it works both ways
2024-10-10T15:26:04 < qyx> did you measure cc1 to cc2 resistance?
2024-10-10T15:26:12 < qyx> just curious
2024-10-10T15:31:24 < jpa-> 10.2k
2024-10-10T15:31:35 < jpa-> but figured it out, CC2 *was* shorted to VBUS
2024-10-10T15:31:41 < jpa-> even though i thought i had measured it
2024-10-10T15:40:47 < zyp> that cause doesn't match with the symptoms
2024-10-10T15:41:12 < zyp> this is a «dumb» device with plain pulldowns on CC1/CC2, no sensing?
2024-10-10T15:42:47 < jpa-> yes
2024-10-10T15:43:21 < zyp> then I don't see how it wouldn't just work with A-C cable
2024-10-10T15:43:28 < jpa-> me neither
2024-10-10T15:43:41 < jpa-> this is a fancy A-C cable though
2024-10-10T15:43:51 < zyp> A-C cables aren't fancy
2024-10-10T15:43:59 < jpa-> this one is, it is red and everything
2024-10-10T15:44:32 < zyp> I prefer the yellow ones
2024-10-10T15:45:23 < jpa-> it has the weird extra middle pin on the A side
2024-10-10T15:45:32 < zyp> ah, it's a oneplus cable
2024-10-10T15:45:37 < zyp> I have one of those too
2024-10-10T15:46:04 < jpa-> it seems to connect CC1 and CC2 but not sure to what
2024-10-10T15:46:55 < zyp> this sort of shit, right: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Dash_Charge_for_OnePlus_5-8477.jpg
2024-10-10T15:47:02 < jpa-> yeah
2024-10-10T15:47:14 < jpa-> though it doesn't say "dash"
2024-10-10T15:47:25 < zyp> mine doesn't either, oneplus renamed it to warp charge later
2024-10-10T15:47:34 < zyp> same as the oppo vooc shit
2024-10-10T15:48:31 < jbo> good day, people of happyness
2024-10-10T15:50:25 < zyp> AIUI it's letting the charger feed the battery directly, avoiding the need for the phone to do a step-down, letting it run a higher charge current with less heat dissipation
2024-10-10T15:50:50 < zyp> and to control it they've invented some bullshit nonstandard cable
2024-10-10T15:51:31 < zyp> jbo, sup?
2024-10-10T15:53:30 < jbo> too much random sh*t 
2024-10-10T15:53:34 < jbo> and with you?
2024-10-10T15:54:00 < zyp> same same
2024-10-10T15:54:42 < qyx> if you are running 4A at 5V to a phone, I guess at the end of the cable it is gonna be about 4V and a 90% eff step down is 1.6 W only
2024-10-10T15:54:47 < qyx> what are they trying to achieve?
2024-10-10T15:55:03 < qyx> *1.6 W dissipation only
2024-10-10T15:55:06 < jpa-> huh, this smooth-on task 7 stuff contains "California Proposition 64 Warning: This product *does not* contain any chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm."
2024-10-10T15:55:23 < jpa-> *65
2024-10-10T15:59:05 < Steffanx> Is jpa- showing his multiplication skills AGAIN?
2024-10-10T16:03:24 < zyp> qyx, faster charging
2024-10-10T16:03:43 < zyp> idk, not my invention
2024-10-10T16:32:57 < fenugrec> california order 66
2024-10-10T16:45:25 < karlp1> is that kill all the younglings?
2024-10-10T16:53:18 < fenugrec> Im̀ not sure, thought it had something to do with the senate ? haven't watched those in years
2024-10-10T17:13:55 < karlp1> https://godbolt.org/z/rbPx4eePx is my problem.
2024-10-10T17:14:03 < karlp1> fuck I hate C.
2024-10-10T17:16:28 < karlp1> actually it's worse...
2024-10-10T17:17:29 < karlp1> https://godbolt.org/z/6EW89sz9T
2024-10-10T17:17:32 < karlp1> 32+32 = 64 ok
2024-10-10T17:17:47 < karlp1> no, 16+16 = 32 ok, but 32+32 != 64 ok.
2024-10-10T17:27:59 < jbo> karlp1, isn't that sort of expected behavior?
2024-10-10T17:28:08 < karlp1> what part?
2024-10-10T17:28:19 < jbo> otherwise you'readding two u32 together, then make it a u64
2024-10-10T17:28:22 < karlp1> 16+16 stores in a 32 properly without casting.
2024-10-10T17:28:30 < karlp1> 32+32 won't store in a 64 unless you upcast first
2024-10-10T17:28:41 < karlp1> these are i32, not u32.
2024-10-10T17:35:32 < karlp1> so, i16s are "smaller than int" so are autopromoted to int.
2024-10-10T17:37:30 < jbo> aah
2024-10-10T17:38:06 < sauce> nasty
2024-10-10T17:38:21 < jbo> nastysauce
2024-10-10T17:56:17 < qyx> sometimes I wish native python MCUs existed
2024-10-10T17:56:25 < qyx> no types, so lol, much wow
2024-10-10T17:56:29 < qyx> sorry
2024-10-10T17:56:36 < qyx> *duck typed
2024-10-10T18:29:55 < jbo> what do you mean? CPUs don't know anything about types.
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2024-10-10T18:32:49 < zyp> my new silly project is starting to get somewhere: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/AKck7
2024-10-10T18:33:07 < jbo> erecting since 2024
2024-10-10T18:33:14 < zyp> yes
2024-10-10T18:33:16 < jbo> > erect
2024-10-10T18:33:18 < jbo> > touch
2024-10-10T18:33:19 < jbo> lol'd.
2024-10-10T18:33:35 < jbo> and people call me weird
2024-10-10T18:34:31 < zyp> eventually it's not gonna do a rebuild in that situation, but I haven't added file fingerprinting yet, it's currently just looking at mtimes, like make
2024-10-10T18:35:16 < jbo> fingerprinting? why not inotify/kqueue ?
2024-10-10T18:35:29 < zyp> wat
2024-10-10T18:35:58 < zyp> inotify solves exactly zero problems here
2024-10-10T18:36:18 < qyx> poor make
2024-10-10T18:36:21 < jbo> filechange?
2024-10-10T18:36:40 < jbo> zyp, inotify_add_watch()  ?!
2024-10-10T18:36:52 < jbo> ah, you don't have a daemon/service
2024-10-10T18:36:53 < jbo> never mind
2024-10-10T18:37:05 < qyx> it is a build system
2024-10-10T18:37:12 < zyp> I'm not interested in files changing while a build is running, I'm interested in what files changed since the last build
2024-10-10T18:37:17 < jbo> jup
2024-10-10T18:37:34 < jbo> I'd like to officially apologize.
2024-10-10T18:37:45 < karlp1> are you going to return the gold?
2024-10-10T18:37:51 < zyp> so I can store fingerprints with mtimes and a hash of the file contents
2024-10-10T18:38:19 < zyp> rehash the file if the mtime changed, compare hashes to tell if it changed
2024-10-10T18:40:47 < qyx> als lolzyp
2024-10-10T18:40:53 < qyx> the paste
2024-10-10T18:41:38 < zyp> hey, it's a descriptive name, and nobody else seems to have named their software that
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2024-10-10T19:05:13 < hexbrex> Is there a Makefile for this somewhere https://github.com/STMicroelectronics/stm32-lan8742
2024-10-10T19:05:35 < jbo> hexbrex, what are you looking for? appears to be just a .c and a .h file.
2024-10-10T19:06:21 < hexbrex> jbo, where to install it
2024-10-10T19:06:37 < qyx> it is a cube component
2024-10-10T19:06:48 < hexbrex> `/drivers/phy` ?
2024-10-10T19:06:50 < hexbrex> oh
2024-10-10T19:06:52 < qyx> so you just clicky click in cubemx
2024-10-10T19:07:40 < hexbrex> I wanted to use it in Yocto
2024-10-10T19:08:16 < qyx> which mcu?
2024-10-10T19:08:19 < qyx> mp1?
2024-10-10T19:08:25 < jbo> hexbrex, then just add it to your .bb
2024-10-10T19:08:33 < jbo> or make a proper recipie for it
2024-10-10T19:09:12 < qyx> I don't follow, for yocto you need a kernel driver for a phy, not a random c and h file from the interweb
2024-10-10T19:09:30 < qyx> and I would say it is already included in linux
2024-10-10T19:09:39 < hexbrex> mp1. Yeah I'm trying to write the .bb and Makefile for it
2024-10-10T19:10:47 < hexbrex> Oh that would be nice. I should look at that first, hopefully 8720 is as well
2024-10-10T19:11:08 < jbo> presumably ST provides a metalayer with supporting their own stuff.
2024-10-10T19:12:09 < jbo> https://github.com/STMicroelectronics/meta-st-stm32mp
2024-10-10T19:12:56 < jbo> but as qyx said it's most likely already supported by upstream
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2024-10-10T19:27:55 < hexbrex> jbo, yep it's in there. thanks!
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2024-10-10T20:19:09 < Steffanx> lol jbo. i thought stm32mp was your thing not be talked about or named :P
2024-10-10T20:22:43 < qyx> it is
2024-10-10T20:22:45 < qyx> same here
2024-10-10T20:23:00 < jbo> biggest piece of garbage I have seen in years.
2024-10-10T20:23:12 < jbo> aggrevating-garbage*
2024-10-10T20:23:14 < zyp> what part of it?
2024-10-10T20:23:19 < jbo> the ST part
2024-10-10T20:23:42 < jbo> qyx, told me not to do it. and I did it anyway. and after loosing 4 weeks and $$ I threw it in the garbage
2024-10-10T20:23:50 < zyp> I'm tempted to play with mp2 eventually
2024-10-10T20:23:59 < jbo> play? sure.
2024-10-10T20:24:37 < Steffanx> zyp will probably go bare metal and use laks ;)
2024-10-10T20:24:40 < zyp> anyway, what's wrong with mp1?
2024-10-10T20:24:49 < zyp> Steffanx, on the cortex-m part of it, probably
2024-10-10T20:24:56 < jbo> not sure if the situation changed but first rule if you design your own thing: do not even think of using a PMIC other than the one coming from ST.
2024-10-10T20:25:02 < jbo> they had hard-coded stuff _everywhere_
2024-10-10T20:25:14 < jbo> this was like two years ago by now, so not sure if it changed.
2024-10-10T20:25:23 < Steffanx> unlikely
2024-10-10T20:25:25 < Steffanx> its ST
2024-10-10T20:25:27 < zyp> ah, you're talking about the vendor BSP
2024-10-10T20:25:49 < zyp> 1. I hate vendor BSPs anyway
2024-10-10T20:25:55 < zyp> 2. I'd probably use a SoM or something
2024-10-10T20:26:35 < zyp> ah, octavo have already announced osd32mp2
2024-10-10T20:29:33 < jbo> zyp, I used an Olimex SoM.
2024-10-10T20:30:28 < zyp> so olimex fucked up and didn't supply a proper BSP?
2024-10-10T20:30:41 < jbo> they had a mistake in their documentation (which they admitted to once I e-mailed them). and that was the whole reason why I picked the Olimex SoM. So after they admitted to the mistake and corrected the documentation I asked for a refund (because it was then essentially useless to me). they declined. so 350.- EUR down the drain
2024-10-10T20:31:37 < jbo> in their own product documentation of the SoM they stated that all peripherals are tested and known to work. I really, really needed the 3.5mm AUX input. turns out that it wasn't working and that they knew about it. just incorrect documentation.
2024-10-10T20:31:49 < jbo> which is fine - mistakes happen. but at least refund the hardware -__-
2024-10-10T20:32:04 < jbo> so I have a box with unused STM23MP1 SoMs at the office
2024-10-10T20:32:25 < jbo> (because the "works out of the box 3.5mm AUX" jack is what I really needed.
2024-10-10T20:33:00 < jbo> that is when I flipped some tables and when custom PCB with SAMA5D and SSM2603 instead.
2024-10-10T20:33:19 < jbo> and subsequently you helped me to figure out how to force the µSD in 3.3V mode if you recall that :)
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2024-10-10T20:35:00 < qyx> yes I tried two times and failed two times.
2024-10-10T20:35:21 < qyx> first try I used lpddr3, that was a fail
2024-10-10T20:35:39 < jbo> yeah what I just explained above was only olimex related rant. the STM32MP1 rant is separate.
2024-10-10T20:36:03 < qyx> second time was the pmic issue..
2024-10-10T20:36:45 < jbo> the PMIC one was certainly leaving a mark on my end :/
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2024-10-10T22:35:17 < hexbrex> Does this indicate a hardware issue or a driver issue? https://pastebin.com/raw/APMauj8U
2024-10-10T22:38:18 < zyp> I haven't worked with mp1, but «no phy at addr -1» sounds like a driver/config issue, -1 doesn't sound like a valid address
2024-10-10T22:39:12 < zyp> and why does it say «eth2 eth1» and then «eth1 eth0»? whatever those messages mean, they're not very intuitive
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2024-10-10T22:45:12 < hexbrex> zyp, So my device tree isn't set up properly? This is what it looks like when it succeeds on the dev board w/ a different PHY https://pastebin.com/raw/WDXRdvgD
2024-10-10T22:47:09 < hexbrex> https://www.myirtech.com/list.asp?id=727
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2024-10-10T23:01:25 < qyx> hexbrex: what's your schematic
2024-10-10T23:01:45 < qyx> the rmii/rgmii + phy part
2024-10-10T23:02:28 < qyx> also your device tree, the relevant part at least
2024-10-10T23:04:06 < qyx> jbo: how many SoMs do you have? and which model exactly?
2024-10-10T23:13:51 < hexbrex> qyx, https://i.imgur.com/mSQo3lD.png jumper wires drawn on
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2024-10-10T23:20:18 < qyx> hexbrex: is this your schematic? or a devkit one?
2024-10-10T23:20:41 < hexbrex> qyx, that's mine
2024-10-10T23:21:04 < qyx> first of all, MDIO needs a pull-up, not a pull-down
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2024-10-10T23:23:17 < qyx> secondly, your cable-side magnetics is not properly terminated
2024-10-10T23:25:50 < hexbrex> qyx, Okay I will pass that on. Thank you
2024-10-10T23:26:53 < hexbrex> It's showing an 8720A but we're using an 8742A
2024-10-10T23:28:40 < hexbrex> It looks like my build has `CONFIG_MICREL_PHY=y` but not `CONFIG_GENERIC_PHY=y` so I'll try rebuilding with that
2024-10-10T23:39:55 < qyx> also your phy is super old
2024-10-10T23:40:04 < qyx> even needs 50R termination
2024-10-10T23:43:51 < hexbrex> qyx, we only need 10/100
2024-10-10T23:44:09 < qyx> it doesn't matter, it is feature-old
2024-10-10T23:44:18 < qyx> not speed-old
2024-10-10T23:44:45 < hexbrex> qyx, and it's only 40 cents :)
2024-10-10T23:44:49 < qyx> not even EEE
2024-10-10T23:44:53 < qyx> and stuff
2024-10-10T23:45:25 < qyx> at least it has TDR diag
2024-10-10T23:46:03 < qyx> it is like using LM1117 in 2024
2024-10-10T23:46:09 < qyx> or stm32f103
2024-10-10T23:46:27 < hexbrex> Is there something that cheap that's more modern?
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--- Day changed pe loka 11 2024
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2024-10-11T00:46:30 < jbo> stm32f103 was pretty much the 2nd best STM32 ever tho
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2024-10-11T00:53:36 < specing> hexbrex: probably the chinese f103 clone that fixes f103's issues
2024-10-11T00:59:47 < jbo> I thing hexbrex is asking about ethernet PHYs
2024-10-11T01:00:04 < qyx> ksz8081/8091 for example
2024-10-11T01:00:10 < qyx> but I bet even those are old now
2024-10-11T01:01:33 < jbo> DP83825I ?
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2024-10-11T10:19:23 < machinehum> jbo: Tell me a story about the mp1
2024-10-11T10:22:18 < machinehum> jbo: is sleeping
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2024-10-11T14:14:47 < Steffanx> Don't bully the poor guy, machinehum 
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2024-10-11T16:46:17 < jbo> sup
2024-10-11T16:47:51 < ventYl> tinysub docs: 404 not found
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2024-10-11T20:07:33 < Steffanx> Try tinyusb, ventYl  
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2024-10-11T21:00:05 < zyp> hmm, gcc 13 seems to have issues with constexpr visibility between modules, seems to be fixed in gcc 14
2024-10-11T21:00:54 < zyp> so if I want to use modules in laks, it looks like I'll have to require gcc 14
2024-10-11T21:01:25 < zyp> which seems a bit early, since the latest official arm toolchain release is still 13
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2024-10-11T21:24:31 < antto> look what came out of the archives: https://i.imgur.com/KWo8S11.png
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2024-10-11T21:33:47 < Steffanx> Thanks
2024-10-11T21:35:00 < antto> your life is complete now
2024-10-11T21:38:21 -!- hexo_ [~hexo@user/hexo] has joined ##stm32
2024-10-11T21:49:53 < Steffanx> It already was complete the day you joined the lovely ##stm32 or was it even still #stm32 back then mr antto ?
2024-10-11T21:50:03 < Steffanx> unlikely
2024-10-11T21:50:33 < antto> when i came to this channel it was on freenope and there was senpai in it
2024-10-11T21:51:00 < antto> where's he btw? ;P~
2024-10-11T21:52:43 < Steffanx> senpai is only active in on Telegram (not a joke, he really is)
2024-10-11T21:53:34 < antto> and loirens wasn't so loco back then
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2024-10-11T23:14:38 < qyx> whos senpai
2024-10-11T23:14:41 < qyx> oh lol
2024-10-11T23:16:02 < jbo> are we doing gender assumption again?
2024-10-11T23:18:45 < zyp> built first laks application using C++20 modules: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/u4rit.png
2024-10-11T23:19:30 < zyp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/mT6F0
2024-10-11T23:19:46 < jbo> nice!
2024-10-11T23:20:11 < zyp> it even works: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/zDd9d.png
--- Day changed la loka 12 2024
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2024-10-12T01:43:17 < ventYl> tinyusb in user-mode process in CMRX works too. I thought that there is some kind of bug, but it was just RC48 used as a clock source for USB which caused mayhem
2024-10-12T01:47:28 < ventYl> someone did performance comparison of zephyr w/ stack protector and without it. in kernel-heavy load it causes 50% performance drop
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2024-10-12T04:51:51 < karlp1> zyp: is that an erection running in renode?
2024-10-12T04:52:27 < zyp> yep
2024-10-12T04:52:35 < karlp1> a-he
2024-10-12T04:52:39 < karlp1> heh :) cute
2024-10-12T04:52:55  * karlp1 is happy :)
2024-10-12T04:53:35 < karlp1> I have tacit approval to do more with renode for day job, but it's still laayers
2024-10-12T04:53:47 < karlp1> I got my first digipot project approved though
2024-10-12T04:53:48 < zyp> how do you feel about laks requiring gcc 14?
2024-10-12T04:53:54 < karlp1> fine.
2024-10-12T04:54:10 < karlp1> I'm not using modules anyway, but 13 or 14 is fine.
2024-10-12T04:54:29 < karlp1> and I'm still on my hacking fork with kinetis shit anyway
2024-10-12T04:54:50 < karlp1> and I only so far have supe rexperimental shit in laks anyway, nothing really production
2024-10-12T04:54:57 < karlp1> so all goood, do hwatever is cool
2024-10-12T04:55:28 < zyp> it doesn't matter whether you're using modules or not once laks is (and it'll nag you to update your shit)
2024-10-12T04:56:08 < karlp1> no, I mean, I'm happy with whatever, I didn't have any other pressure anyway
2024-10-12T04:56:49 < zyp> I'm planning to drop these in place of all the old headers: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/r1Hxh
2024-10-12T04:57:19 < karlp1> what are you making these timing charts for erect with?
2024-10-12T04:57:24 < zyp> bokeh
2024-10-12T04:59:42 < zyp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/hmrma
2024-10-12T05:08:00 < zyp> as for the gcc version, I couldn't find any decent gcc 14 builds for embedded arm
2024-10-12T05:08:39 < zyp> the latest official one is still 13, and the 14 builds I found didn't bundle all required libraries properly
2024-10-12T05:11:11 < zyp> but going by the arm-gnu-toolchain release history, it's about time for a new release soon, so that might solve itself before too long
2024-10-12T05:11:29 < zyp> as for riscv, the latest xpack toolchain seems decent
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2024-10-12T13:56:48 < BrainDamage> https://i.redd.it/xd090m248aud1.png
2024-10-12T14:09:18 < zyp> karlp1, I reduced a bunch of cruft from the peripheral instance template invokation: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/KHgca
2024-10-12T14:10:42 < zyp> that can be further reduced still, but this is going the right way :)
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2024-10-12T16:27:46 < karlp1> as long as I can follow your existing style i'm ok :)
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--- Day changed su loka 13 2024
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2024-10-13T02:31:04 < zyp> karlp1, I refactored large parts of laks, and then I added graphviz output of the dependency graph too: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/Zw7Fg.pdf
2024-10-13T02:31:16 < zyp> blue are files, red are tasks
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2024-10-13T06:56:24 < zyp> karlp1, hmm, I looked at porting some of your projects to see how they build with the new system, and now realize that they rely on a ton of laks changes that I haven't merged yet
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2024-10-13T07:21:43 < zyp> karlp1, ok, I think I'm starting to get your git history, you effectively have two branches; one for wch, one for kinetis
2024-10-13T07:22:33 < zyp> and the kinetis one is based on top of an older wch branch, before a rebase, so it has a second copy of most of the same history, but not all
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2024-10-13T14:17:13 < zyp> karlp1, the tinyusb submodule in l2-krv-miniblink/tusb-kinetis2 references a commit hash that doesn't exist on github, neither upstream nor in your fork
2024-10-13T14:20:42 -!- Livio [~livio@user/livio] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
2024-10-13T14:30:06 < zyp> doesn't build with your wip/marel-top1 branch either, whatever that is
2024-10-13T14:32:45 < zyp> do you have something that just builds out of the box? my goal here is to take something known working with scons and get it to also build with erect
2024-10-13T14:33:21 < zyp> I'd rather not have to beat it into submission to get it to build with scons first :)
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2024-10-13T21:02:36 < qyx> what the actual hell, I can't change ssh listening port in ubuntu 24.04
2024-10-13T21:02:52 < qyx> because of SYSTEMD
2024-10-13T21:03:46 < qyx> so instead of changing the port and restarting the service, I have to create some insane override file for ssh.socket service, do daemon reload or whatever te thing is, and whatnot
2024-10-13T21:05:04 < jpa-> so, you need to edit a config file, and restart a service?
2024-10-13T21:05:06 < jpa-> the horror
2024-10-13T21:05:14 < BrainDamage> two config files
2024-10-13T21:05:25 < jpa-> oh, well that sounds too much
2024-10-13T21:05:32 < qyx> and the thing is, you have to do ListenStream=
2024-10-13T21:05:45 < BrainDamage> there's a a much simpler solution
2024-10-13T21:05:57 < BrainDamage> disable socket activation, and just enable the service
2024-10-13T21:06:06 < BrainDamage> I don't even know why they do socket activation
2024-10-13T21:06:21 < BrainDamage> the resource needed by sshd are negligible
2024-10-13T21:06:37 < karlp1> zyp: will get you one later tonight
2024-10-13T21:06:49 < karlp1> the kinetis stuff is rough, don't look too much there.
2024-10-13T21:08:17 < BrainDamage> I guess it's some dumb global policy like "transition all socket activable daemons to that"
2024-10-13T21:08:40 < karlp1> gotta show off the feature :)
2024-10-13T21:09:18 < jpa-> i can see it slightly reducing boot times
2024-10-13T21:09:38 < jpa-> but yeah, probably not much effect
2024-10-13T21:13:02 < qyx> then it does address already in use
2024-10-13T21:13:05 < qyx> so I edit it again
2024-10-13T21:13:08 < qyx> delete the override
2024-10-13T21:13:17 < BrainDamage> did you stop the socket listener?
2024-10-13T21:13:22 < qyx> restart, now it listens on two ports despite the config not being there anymore
2024-10-13T21:13:27 < qyx> yes, restart ssh.socket
2024-10-13T21:13:28 < BrainDamage> just disabling is not sufficient
2024-10-13T21:13:38 < qyx> no I am trying the official approach
2024-10-13T21:13:39 < BrainDamage> oh, you want to keep on
2024-10-13T21:13:51 < BrainDamage> did you use overrides?
2024-10-13T21:14:03 < BrainDamage> as in, systemctl edit ssh.socket?
2024-10-13T21:14:06 < qyx> yes I did but then I removed it
2024-10-13T21:14:11 < qyx> no change whatsoever
2024-10-13T21:14:16 < qyx> it is just being dumb
2024-10-13T21:14:30 < BrainDamage> what did you write exactly?
2024-10-13T21:14:51 < qyx> I wanted to add a port, so I added [Socket] and ListenStream=2222
2024-10-13T21:14:56 < qyx> restart, address already in use
2024-10-13T21:14:59 < qyx> restart again, works
2024-10-13T21:15:14 < qyx> now I want to remove 2222, so I edit again, delete the ListenStream line
2024-10-13T21:15:18 < qyx> restart, still listening
2024-10-13T21:15:21 < qyx> wth
2024-10-13T21:16:03 < BrainDamage> was sshd launched in the meantime?
2024-10-13T21:16:35 < qyx> probably yes because some chinks are trying to access 22
2024-10-13T21:16:53 < qyx> now I edited the override again, added another port, restart socket
2024-10-13T21:16:57 < qyx> now it listens on 3 ports
2024-10-13T21:17:10 < qyx> tcp6       0      0 :::22700                :::*                    LISTEN      1/init              
2024-10-13T21:17:13 < qyx> tcp6       0      0 :::22                   :::*                    LISTEN      1/init              
2024-10-13T21:17:16 < qyx> tcp6       0      0 :::22800                :::*                    LISTEN      1/init              
2024-10-13T21:17:49 < BrainDamage> you need to daemon-reload if you didn't use systemctl edit
2024-10-13T21:18:40 < BrainDamage> and if the thing is truly bugged, I guess you can try daemon-reexec to relaunch the daemon manager
2024-10-13T21:19:01 < qyx> I will restart the thing
2024-10-13T21:20:09 < qyx> and if it dies, I will be angry because monkey with the right manual is >>> linux experience 15y ago and that's truly frustrating
2024-10-13T21:20:27 < qyx> I always hoped lunix doesn't change
2024-10-13T21:20:35 < qyx> I hsould move to bsd
2024-10-13T21:24:51 < zyp> karlp1, the move to modules in laks will be a major refactor, so I figure it'd be good to merge anything that's ready first so it gets included in the refactor
2024-10-13T21:25:26 < karlp1> the wch stuff is as stable as it's getting for the time being.
2024-10-13T21:25:42 < karlp1> the kinetis stuff has no future really, I just wanted laks as a thin base I could work frrom
2024-10-13T21:28:08 < zyp> so you're not gonna use it for anything?
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2024-10-13T21:31:22 < zyp> I don't have any kinetis hardware, nor plans to get any, so I don't mind leaving it out if nobody else is going to use it either
2024-10-13T21:31:26 < karlp1> try: https://github.com/karlp/l2-miniblink-simple
2024-10-13T21:31:36 < karlp1> I'll look later for something "serious" if you really need more?
2024-10-13T21:31:49 < karlp1> the l2-krv-miniblink repo has become just a hacking ground for experiments.
2024-10-13T21:32:23 < qyx> TIL hostnamectl
2024-10-13T21:32:43 < zyp> on the other hand, I don't mind merging peripheral support I don't need, unused peripherals doesn't harm anything
2024-10-13T21:32:45 < karlp1> https://github.com/karlp/l2-st-ble builds as well.  and worked well back then,
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2024-10-13T21:32:58 < karlp1> that was where I deadend-ed on adc+ble low power modes, but it was otherwise functional.
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2024-10-13T21:33:17 < karlp1> don't merge any kinetis unless I do more with it.
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2024-10-13T21:34:02 < zyp> fair enough, expect to have to update stuff to a post-refactor world if you're gonna do more with it then
2024-10-13T21:34:13 < karlp1> l2-ch58x-ble1 should be fine too.
2024-10-13T21:34:48 < karlp1> that's a demo of the ble advertising with just calling the blob, without any of the wch hal layer stuff
2024-10-13T21:34:50 < zyp> by the way, I now consider github/zyp/laks to be the primary upstream, and dev_v2 is now merged to main
2024-10-13T21:34:56  * karlp1 cheers
2024-10-13T21:35:55 < zyp> do you have any projects doing multiple variants?
2024-10-13T21:36:04 < zyp> decent support for that is one of the design goals for new build system
2024-10-13T21:39:12 < zyp> I need to go deal with a diaper, will try the stuff you linked afterwards
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2024-10-13T21:54:14 < zyp> karlp1, l2-miniblink-simple complains that template_stm.cpp is missing
2024-10-13T21:55:45 < zyp> and riscv compiler complains about lack of zicsr in -march, but otherwise it builds
2024-10-13T22:01:24 < karlp1> yeah, fuck that zicsr thing, way to go risc compiler people
2024-10-13T22:01:30 < karlp1> I've forgotten the workaroudn tehre.
2024-10-13T22:03:24 < zyp> I think the way is to just add zicsr to the platform file
2024-10-13T22:03:39 < karlp1> yeah, but it's also something they changed the march lines for
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2024-10-13T22:03:47 < karlp1> this miniblink repo is a bit of a mess.
2024-10-13T22:03:53 < karlp1> i'd have to retry some stuff to verify first sorry
2024-10-13T22:03:55 < zyp> if I'm gonna mandate minimum gcc-14 anyway, it doesn't matter that older gcc versions required a different -march setting
2024-10-13T22:04:07 < karlp1> true
2024-10-13T22:04:50 < karlp1> I've pushed the miniblink-simple repo some missing stuff, but that also pushes some laks stuff that I've no recollection of right now :)
2024-10-13T22:04:58 < karlp1> been away from fun embedded for a while I'm afraid.
2024-10-13T22:05:17 < zyp> that's how it goes
2024-10-13T22:06:18 < zyp> all the hobby embedded stuff I've touched for the past months before this have been fpga gateware, and not really a lot of that either
2024-10-13T22:06:48 < zyp> haven't touched firmware since I dicked around doing ipv6 in like april
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2024-10-13T22:24:18 < zyp> okay, I think that gives me enough to work with, the miniblink is multivariant, and the l2-st-ble pulls in whole freertos
2024-10-13T22:28:07 < zyp> and it's also got enough code that it takes a few seconds to build, so it'll be interesting to see how build speeds compare
2024-10-13T22:33:49 < zyp> interesting, first build takes 3.3 seconds, clean and rebuild takes 1.1 seconds (presumably because it has the entire file scanning cached, and 0.8 seconds for an «everything up to date» run
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2024-10-13T23:20:20 < zyp> oh, right, I need to add support for C
2024-10-13T23:20:28 < zyp> currently I'm just throwing everything into g++
2024-10-13T23:53:42 < karlp1> kinetis and future wch is all freertos too. until someone gives me something better.
--- Day changed ma loka 14 2024
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2024-10-14T00:15:39 < zyp> «oh nice, it built successfully», «wait, I haven't finished adding all the sources to the build yet, why doesn't the linker error out?», «oh, huh, the resulting elf is empty, everything is getting thrown out»
2024-10-14T00:19:36 < zyp> seems to be an lto thing, fails with undefined references without lto
2024-10-14T00:39:54 < zyp> okay, I added the rest of the sources, complains about some missing syscalls, I add those, and now the result is a lot fatter than it used to be
2024-10-14T00:39:59 < zyp>    text	   data	    bss	    dec	    hex	filename
2024-10-14T00:40:00 < zyp>   25999	    662	  34215	  60876	   edcc	app-hrstm.elf
2024-10-14T00:40:00 < zyp>   48616	   4705	  31624	  84945	  14bd1	build/app-hrstm.elf
2024-10-14T01:03:19 < zyp> beating lto into submission didn't help either
2024-10-14T01:03:20 < zyp>    text	   data	    bss	    dec	    hex	filename
2024-10-14T01:03:20 < zyp>   25999	    662	  34215	  60876	   edcc	app-hrstm.elf
2024-10-14T01:03:20 < zyp>   46840	   4703	  31660	  83203	  14503	build/app-hrstm.elf
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2024-10-14T01:21:22 < zyp> oh, duh, it was just a matter of a missing --specs=nano.specs
2024-10-14T01:21:25 < zyp>    text	   data	    bss	    dec	    hex	filename
2024-10-14T01:21:25 < zyp>   25871	    662	  34215	  60748	   ed4c	app-hrstm.elf
2024-10-14T01:21:25 < zyp>   24755	    680	  34187	  59622	   e8e6	app-kustom1.elf
2024-10-14T01:21:25 < zyp>   24415	   3299	  31612	  59326	   e7be	build/app-hrstm.elf
2024-10-14T01:21:25 < zyp>   22819	   3267	  31584	  57670	   e146	build/app-kustom1.elf
2024-10-14T01:22:52 < zyp> the data/bss differences appears to be because I'm not linking with the modified linker script
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2024-10-14T10:57:58 < ventYl> what is a text-book example of "abstraction" in electronic design domain?
2024-10-14T11:04:09 < BrainDamage> modularity
2024-10-14T11:04:35 < BrainDamage> eg buying an amplifer device
2024-10-14T11:04:37 < ventYl> I am trying to explain this to someone from German automotive
2024-10-14T11:04:48 < ventYl> german automotive isn't exactly place where modularity exists
2024-10-14T11:05:25 < BrainDamage> in circuit design, thevenin/norton, if they studied that
2024-10-14T11:05:40 < BrainDamage> or transfer functions
2024-10-14T11:07:13 < ventYl> 74xx might be a good one
2024-10-14T11:07:38 < ventYl> parts manufactured by different OEMs are pin-compatible
2024-10-14T11:07:58 < ventYl> or the pin-compatibility of parts
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2024-10-14T12:53:22 < jpa-> ventYl: selecting car battery based on just voltage & current specs, instead of detailed analysis of the internals
2024-10-14T12:56:57 < ventYl> jpa-: yeah, unfortunately they blindly follow the tesla cargo cult, so no such thing either
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2024-10-14T13:13:32 < jpa-> i don't even know what that means
2024-10-14T13:15:12 < ventYl> cargo cult is a term coined by (IIRC) Richard Feynmann back in '80s
2024-10-14T13:15:50 < BrainDamage> I think they meant in this specific instance
2024-10-14T13:15:59 < ventYl> ah :)
2024-10-14T13:16:22 < ventYl> yeah, well. bulk of automotive is using a network of 3rd party suppliers
2024-10-14T13:17:21 < BrainDamage> maybe they can understand abstraction taking an example from the car itself
2024-10-14T13:17:26 < ventYl> tesla found this network to be too rigid, so they vertically integrated their supply chain and did everything in house
2024-10-14T13:17:36 < BrainDamage> you don't need to know the engine internals, just the accelerator pedal
2024-10-14T13:18:03 < ventYl> now bulk of automotive thinks that the key to the success is to vertically integrate everything, rather than stop being rigid
2024-10-14T13:18:29 < ventYl> so now german automotive is transforming from horizontally integrated rigid structure to basically the same ridig structure, just integrated vertically
2024-10-14T13:18:48 < jpa-> well, they'll benefit from having abstraction internally anyway
2024-10-14T13:19:20 < ventYl> the thing is they won't have it
2024-10-14T13:19:28 < jpa-> even a nut and bolt is an abstraction
2024-10-14T13:19:55 < ventYl> yeah, that's a good example
2024-10-14T13:20:01 < jpa-> the whole modern industrialization is based on interchangeable parts
2024-10-14T13:20:03 < ventYl> probably understandable even to someone in e/E
2024-10-14T13:20:23 < BrainDamage> yeah, what makes a good abstraction is understanding its limitations
2024-10-14T13:20:53 < jpa-> and if you don't have abstraction between different departments and modularization, you are unnecessarily loading the engineers with too much information
2024-10-14T13:21:26 < ventYl> well, back when I've been in automotive, we were a 3rd party and the OEM was dictating us which subcomponents we will use and how we will treat them
2024-10-14T13:21:35 < ventYl> so there is literally 0 abstraction in cars
2024-10-14T13:22:07 < jpa-> i don't see how your second claim follows from the first one
2024-10-14T13:22:47 < ventYl> maybe I should be more specific to state it was about software components
2024-10-14T13:22:55 < jpa-> sounds like the "3rd party" was being hired as an assembly partner, so it is not an abstraction boundary
2024-10-14T13:23:00 < BrainDamage> that sounds more like a manifacturing contract than a design one
2024-10-14T13:23:48 < jpa-> software abstraction is a bit different, but if you didn't build abstraction layers into your software just because you were told what library to use, that sounds like your fault
2024-10-14T13:23:55 < BrainDamage> if it was meant to be design, I guess it is a faulty abstraction, they should be more concerned about aggregate parameters such as fault rate, thermal resistance, etc
2024-10-14T13:24:20 < BrainDamage> rohs compliance, etc
2024-10-14T13:24:34 < BrainDamage> you don't care if a resistor is sourced by vishay or not
2024-10-14T13:24:39 < jpa-> (and deciding the correct number of abstraction layers in software is difficult)
2024-10-14T13:25:02 < jpa-> and even if you care about where resistor is sourced, you care about it in abstract terms
2024-10-14T13:25:05 < ventYl> jpa-: yeah, I did. but majority of automotive SW developer is simply used exactly that OEM tells them to do. so very little abstraction is found in the software
2024-10-14T13:25:49 < jpa-> i agree that automotive software usually sucks, and that way the skilled developers tend to avoid it, leading to more suck
2024-10-14T13:26:06 < ventYl> you usually avoid people rather than software
2024-10-14T13:26:07 < BrainDamage> the sw developer thing is probably a conseguence of the absurd rulesets
2024-10-14T13:26:19 < ventYl> software sucks, but the level it sucks is usually manageable given the time and money
2024-10-14T13:26:32 < ventYl> but then you hit the wall of "historic reasons" and you simply give up
2024-10-14T13:26:49 < jpa-> i definitely avoid technologies and fields that suck; of course i avoid annoying people also, but it takes longer to figure out if a specific manager sucks or not
2024-10-14T13:27:42 < ventYl> BrainDamage: there is no real ruleset that would cause this. this is mostly a cultural thing. a surprising one, because in the field of mechanical engineering, automotive does rather good job
2024-10-14T13:28:16 < BrainDamage> I guess they might be so used to having difficulty finding manifacturers matching some specs that they end up mandating specific products even if the specs might allow broader selection
2024-10-14T13:29:26 < ventYl> this specific mandate to use specific library (and choose one out of ~4 providers in the world) was a good idea in the beginning but turned into mayhem years later.
2024-10-14T13:29:57 < jpa-> isn't that abstraction if you have 4 providers for a library?
2024-10-14T13:31:10 < BrainDamage> I think the reasoning is that they cemented on those 4 providers rather than checking who else can meet the spec
2024-10-14T13:31:42 < BrainDamage> and the spec becomes fossilized to some exact code, rather than described by functionality and tolerances
2024-10-14T13:32:41 < BrainDamage> I think they understand abstraction, but it's likely they forgot how those implementations were chosen and don't want to or cannot even think about alternatives
2024-10-14T13:33:02 < jpa-> that's just not taking full advantage of abstraction
2024-10-14T13:33:10 < ventYl> jpa-: yeah, in theory it is. and it practice it would be too. if (at least one) vendor didn't decide they don't like the library specs and they wrote their implementation using slightly different and not much compatible interface spec
2024-10-14T13:33:13 < jpa-> it's still abstraction
2024-10-14T13:33:44 < jpa-> well, faulty vendors will always exist
2024-10-14T13:33:59 < jpa-> maybe someone will tolerate a M10 bolt that is 9 mm in diameter
2024-10-14T13:34:12 < ventYl> BrainDamage: the harsh truth is that the very bottom layer of automotive software only has like ~4 or 5 vendors worldwide and they are all based in Germany
2024-10-14T13:34:17 < ventYl> to there is no such thing as an american car
2024-10-14T13:35:02 < ventYl> jpa-: yeah and here the "everyone hates everyone in automotive" comes into play: if you point out that their implementation is not according to spec they will basically reply "if you don't like it then GTFO"
2024-10-14T13:35:02 < BrainDamage> interesting that china didn't make their own
2024-10-14T13:35:26 < jpa-> no german car either, every country uses parts from elsewhere
2024-10-14T13:36:15 < ventYl> BrainDamage: chineese and tesla integrated vertically, skipped this bottom-most layer of software.
2024-10-14T13:36:50 < BrainDamage> it makes sense to build in-house if the off-the-shelf solutions are garbage
2024-10-14T13:37:42 < BrainDamage> tesla being a sort-of-first in its field also likely required that due to lack of products
2024-10-14T13:38:15 < jpa-> so it seems ventYl is saying that many manufacturers use this particular software that kind of sucks and there are only 4 vendors, one of which sucks even more
2024-10-14T13:38:28 < jpa-> and at the same time, ventYl is complaining about tesla not using that software??
2024-10-14T13:39:48 < BrainDamage> I think the tesla bit is just that they are following the example not understanding why tesla made the choice
2024-10-14T13:39:55 < BrainDamage> like a cargo cult
2024-10-14T13:40:02 < ventYl> jpa-: not at all.
2024-10-14T13:40:14 < BrainDamage> are they copying it for ICE too or limited to EV?
2024-10-14T13:40:47 < BrainDamage> and are the sw bits relevant to EV, or is it generic stuff like UX and infotainment?
2024-10-14T13:41:12 < ventYl> the whole thing is that old-school OEMs see that Tesla can have superior software with "better" features and without apparent struggle.
2024-10-14T13:41:35 < ventYl> while they see that much of their software attempts end up with failure or partial failure and they know they all struggle
2024-10-14T13:42:18 < ventYl> one apparent difference is that old-school OEMs rely on Tier1 suppliers while Tesla is vertically integrated
2024-10-14T13:42:41 < ventYl> for quite some they already see that software developed by Tier1s is "expensive"
2024-10-14T13:43:06 < ventYl> so they did the math and came to the conslusion that the key to the success is to vertically integrate themselves
2024-10-14T13:43:29 < ventYl> BrainDamage: you mostly got it right.
2024-10-14T13:44:37 < ventYl> BrainDamage: IMO the thing is that the pace of change is *much* faster now than it was 15 years ago. So the point here is to write as reusable software as possible.
2024-10-14T13:45:21 < BrainDamage> what portion of software is this?
2024-10-14T13:45:26 < ventYl> BrainDamage: but Tier1s and old-school OEMs are task-oriented: "here write me a software for this ECU". "Ja wohl. Funf million Ojro"
2024-10-14T13:47:16 < BrainDamage> so you mean to develop an abstract ECU program, and then adapt on several devices based off the features availablle?
2024-10-14T13:47:33 < ventYl> BrainDamage: can't say for sure because I don't have clue how much software is there in things like ABS/ESP/etc. but compared to infotainment it is not that much. body/drivetrain is mostly control theory implemented in software
2024-10-14T13:48:21 < ventYl> we were doing ECU for convertible rooftop and the interesting stuff was definitely under 10k SLOC
2024-10-14T13:49:21 < ventYl> BrainDamage: more like develop a program of reusable SW components. then build an ECU out of these components.
2024-10-14T13:50:11 < BrainDamage> sounds more like modularity/composability rather than abstraction per se, but it's closely related
2024-10-14T13:50:42 < ventYl> yeah you can't really have modularity without some degree of abstraction at the coupling layers
2024-10-14T13:50:56 < ventYl> in fact they have these modules
2024-10-14T13:51:56 < ventYl> but they are very closely coupled. like for example a motor control module has interface for DC motor with optosensor that gives 2 pulses per revolution exposed
2024-10-14T13:52:31 < ventYl> and the whole software is written around this interface. then supplier cancels this line of motors, replaces them with motors giving 4 pulses per revolution
2024-10-14T13:52:55 < ventYl> and you end up spending 6 months fixing all the software for the new interface
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2024-10-14T14:54:45 < jpa-> heh, scheduled UPS to pick up my package at 14:00; they have estimated they'll have it delivered in sweden by 13:00
2024-10-14T14:54:56 < jpa-> i wish every carrier would have time travel
2024-10-14T14:55:55 < zyp> do they have a local presence there, or do they subcontract for pickups?
2024-10-14T15:04:31 < jpa-> subcontract
2024-10-14T15:04:44 < jpa-> i live in "all finland except helsinki" area
2024-10-14T15:05:27 < zyp> I know where you live :)
2024-10-14T15:05:50 < jpa-> but you didn't know what UPS calls it ;)
2024-10-14T15:07:28 < zyp> it's a similar deal here, UPS shipments arrive in oslo, go «out for delivery», and then there's no more tracking
2024-10-14T15:08:15 < ventYl> last time UPS delivered something here, the last record was that the parcel left country of origin
2024-10-14T15:08:18 < zyp> I think they go on another plane after that before they arrive here
2024-10-14T15:08:59 < zyp> theoretically there's enough time that they could drive it here, if they don't waste any time, but that sounds unrealistic
2024-10-14T15:10:06 < zyp> how does it work when you send stuff? do you order a pickup through UPS and they take care of sending a subcontractor?
2024-10-14T15:11:35 < zyp> I haven't looked into sending with UPS here, but I have an account with fedex that I've yet to use because it seems such a hassle when they don't do local pickups
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2024-10-14T15:17:30 < jpa-> zyp: i just had to fill in the addresses on UPS website, select time for pickup and get through their captcha that didn't like ublock
2024-10-14T15:18:15 < jpa-> i had a choice between "front door" "back door" "side door" "upstairs" "downstairs" and "garage".. i chose to use the front door
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2024-10-14T15:19:55 < zyp> dhl does «front door», «back door», «reception» and «loading dock»
2024-10-14T15:21:04 < zyp> fedex is is something like «yeah, once you've prepared the shipment(s), call us up so we can make a local label, then just drop the stuff off at the mail office» IIRC
2024-10-14T15:25:43 < jpa-> interestingly UPS was about the same price as postal services for .fi -> .se
2024-10-14T15:27:04 < zyp> my DHL rates also rival regular postal services, depending on what I'm sending
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2024-10-14T15:45:55 < ventYl> now i can see where the picoSDK got inspired
2024-10-14T15:46:16 < ventYl> cubemx does something very similar albeit even worse
2024-10-14T16:02:29 < Steffanx> Stop holding up ups jpa- . I'm waiting for my package to arrive. So move your bicycle 
2024-10-14T16:02:54 < jpa-> it's not me
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2024-10-14T17:31:43  * Sadale licks Steffanx
2024-10-14T18:15:10 < fenugrec> I just love the shipping estimates for "UPS worldwide saver", not sure what exactly it claims to save, but clearly not time (it's not overly fast) and definitely not money : 1500USD to ship some ~10kg box from US to CAN
2024-10-14T18:20:17 < fenugrec> That is 10x more than a similar item, shipped from australia. Wtf.
2024-10-14T18:31:47 < specing> saves UPS from bankruptcy
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2024-10-15T18:44:27 < zyp> hrm, what would you guys say are reasonable naming conventions for cflags vs ccflags vs cppflags vs cxxflags? which of those variables do you expect to exist and which do you expect to be passed to which compilers? (assume a mixed C and C++ project)
2024-10-15T18:50:12 < jpa-> i expect it to always be something else than what i try to use
2024-10-15T18:51:15 < zyp> well, the great part is that you'll get it documented in your editor
2024-10-15T18:55:39 < zyp> I'm putting docstrings on all the variables: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/k13oG.png
2024-10-15T18:56:16 < jpa-> is that like scons but NIH?
2024-10-15T18:56:38 < zyp> have you missed what I've been going on about for the past week or so?
2024-10-15T18:57:04 < jpa-> yes
2024-10-15T18:57:11 < zyp> but yeah, that's a good description
2024-10-15T18:57:14 < jpa-> but i guess it doesn't matter as i wouldn't remember anyway
2024-10-15T18:58:21 < zyp> I wanted to play with C++20 modules, got a bit annoyed that there's no suitable build systems with support for it yet, started wondering how hard it'd be to write my own
2024-10-15T18:58:36 < zyp> turns out not very
2024-10-15T19:02:44 < zyp> so I've got something that works but needs a little bit more polish before it's ready for its first release, and then I've refactored a fair amount of laks to modules (with compatibility headers) and got one of karlp's projects building against it just as happily as the non-module one
2024-10-15T19:08:40 < ventYl> zyp: CMAKE_C_FLAGS / CMAKE_CXX_FLAGS :P
2024-10-15T19:10:05 < ventYl> actually, the question is what would anyone set in these variables?
2024-10-15T19:10:27 < zyp> so, scons apparently have all four of those
2024-10-15T19:10:43 < ventYl> I kinda like the per-target private / public flags concept of recent CMake
2024-10-15T19:10:53 < zyp> cflags gets passed only to the c compiler, cxxflags gets passed only to the c++ compiler
2024-10-15T19:10:56 < ventYl> you care less about language and more on where those get applied and how they propagate
2024-10-15T19:11:46 < zyp> then ccflags are C-family flags that gets passed to both, and cppflags are C preprocessor flags that gets passed to anything using the C preprocessor
2024-10-15T19:12:16 < zyp> the last one is particularly confusing
2024-10-15T19:12:32 < ventYl> ccflags too
2024-10-15T19:13:40 < ventYl> hm, I've had pins assigned to USART in kuba, but USART was disabled. Now I enabled it, did basic configuration. USART configuration got emitted and GPIO configuration was removed.
2024-10-15T19:13:44 < zyp> I think the idea of ccflags is good, most of the flags I set applies to both
2024-10-15T19:14:58 < ventYl> yeah, idea is good, the name not that much given the fact that some compilers historically were called `cc`
2024-10-15T19:15:03 < zyp> I set some C++-only flags and some common flags, but few C-only flags
2024-10-15T19:15:34 < zyp> the only one I can think of right off the bat is -std=c23 or whatever cool kids use nowadays
2024-10-15T19:16:28 < zyp> then again, nowadays the linker also needs most of them, especially with LTO
2024-10-15T19:17:21 < zyp> so I think maybe I'll stick to cflags/cxxflags/ldflags for now
2024-10-15T19:20:17 < ventYl> ah OK, the GPIO initialization is just moved over to somewhere else
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2024-10-16T00:35:28 < qyx> spot the error https://bin.jvnv.net/file/m9qEk/Screenshot_2024-10-15_23-35-01.png
2024-10-16T00:35:40 < qyx> hint: LEDs don't work
2024-10-16T00:50:42 < zyp> wat
2024-10-16T00:51:00 < zyp> why do you even isolate leds?
2024-10-16T00:51:40 < qyx> good question, because I though it is a good idea because LEDs are near the field IO
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2024-10-16T01:43:47 < qyx> I forgot this existed https://trac.edgewall.org/
2024-10-16T01:44:26 < zyp> I ran that for a while
2024-10-16T01:45:09 < qyx> also nagios, mantis, mrtg, bugzilla
2024-10-16T01:45:19 < qyx> software of our childhood
2024-10-16T01:45:26 < zyp> :)
2024-10-16T01:45:33 < qyx> otrs, redmine
2024-10-16T01:45:52 < zyp> hmm, otrs I don't recognize
2024-10-16T01:46:00 < qyx> ticketing system
2024-10-16T01:46:15 < zyp> my current job actually still ran redmine when I started
2024-10-16T01:46:36 < zyp> migrated to jira a while after
2024-10-16T01:47:12 < ventYl> so they have one more item to hate
2024-10-16T01:47:35 < qyx> anyone using bookstack?
2024-10-16T01:48:14 < zyp> ventYl, idk, I'm happy with jira
2024-10-16T01:49:59 < zyp> we use it with the tempo-plugin for time reporting, and out of all the systems I've used for time reporting at different employers, tempo is the one I like the best
2024-10-16T01:50:15 < karlp1> hah
2024-10-16T01:50:24 < karlp1> tempo is one of the worst bits of jira addins I'v ehad to use :)
2024-10-16T01:50:50 < karlp1> or at least, it was, it got sold out of iceland, and new owners ~7-8-0 years ago, maybe they unfucked it.
2024-10-16T01:51:17 < zyp> idk, works much the same today as it did 13 years ago
2024-10-16T01:52:09 < zyp> my first employer out of uni also used tempo, and then I've used a couple of other systems since, and now I'm happy to be back with tempo
2024-10-16T01:52:37 < ventYl> zyp: I am not using it right now but project where I've used it were OK. Just some people tend to bitch about it for who knows why?
2024-10-16T01:53:02 < qyx> what the hell is codebarg
2024-10-16T01:53:06 < qyx> *codeberg
2024-10-16T01:53:17 < qyx> do I have a surprise evening today
2024-10-16T01:53:30 < zyp> that's the forgejo thing?
2024-10-16T01:54:38 < qyx> looks like gihub
2024-10-16T01:54:41 < zyp> yeah
2024-10-16T01:55:15 < zyp> codeberg is forgejo as a service, forgejo is a fork of gitea, and gitea is more or less a «host it yourself» github clone
2024-10-16T01:55:46 < zyp> so effectively it's github for people who hate github or something
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2024-10-16T01:56:25 < zyp> ALTracer, sup
2024-10-16T01:56:28 < karlp1> ventYl: I'v eused jira instlls that had _mountains_ of extras installed as well, and wildly overcomplicated flows. it was terribly slow to use, and very mcuh an impediment to business.
2024-10-16T01:56:39 < karlp1> sometimes when it' s"just" an issue tracker it's fine 
2024-10-16T01:57:08 < zyp> we've got nothing but tempo, and barely use it apart from that
2024-10-16T01:57:31 < qyx> zyp: noice, never really examined this realm
2024-10-16T01:57:34 < ventYl> karlp1: yeah, that's an issues of whoever ordered that setup rather than Jira itself
2024-10-16T01:59:58 < zyp> karlp1, by the way, how do you like this? https://paste.jvnv.net/view/AVAzL
2024-10-16T02:00:16 < zyp> it's your SConstruct, rewritten piece by piece until it built
2024-10-16T02:02:28 < zyp> I find the pathlib stuff a lot cleaner than how scons handles paths
2024-10-16T02:02:41 < karlp1> ventYl: doesn't matter, "it's jira"
2024-10-16T02:03:38 < karlp1> oh those pathlib concat's look cute. nice
2024-10-16T02:03:44 < karlp1> I hadn't seen thos ebefore
2024-10-16T02:04:35 < qyx> for x in "list.c queue.c tasks.c timers.c".split()
2024-10-16T02:04:37 < zyp> yeah, much nicer than dealing with os.path.join
2024-10-16T02:04:38 < qyx> what the hell is this
2024-10-16T02:04:56 < qyx> for x in ['list.c', 'queue.c', ...] ?
2024-10-16T02:05:15 < zyp> yeah, karlp1, was apparently too lazy to make it a list :)
2024-10-16T02:05:36 < karlp1> zyp: looks cool
2024-10-16T02:06:15 < karlp1> qyx: there was probably a a reason at some point?
2024-10-16T02:06:45 < qyx> idk just curious
2024-10-16T02:07:10 < zyp> karlp1, I'm also designing it so it plays nice with editors/code completion: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/UjS28.png
2024-10-16T02:07:24 < karlp1> the original line is: https://github.com/karlp/l2-st-ble/blob/main/SConstruct#L45 so I'm blaming zyp for that twsiting
2024-10-16T02:07:31 < qyx> don't dare to judge others code
2024-10-16T02:07:54 < karlp1> you are.
2024-10-16T02:08:19 < qyx> I mean that was for me
2024-10-16T02:08:23 < qyx> but too late
2024-10-16T02:08:24 < karlp1> I'm not sure wy I had for x in SPlit() though, insteadof "for x in []" 
2024-10-16T02:08:35  * karlp1 shrugs
2024-10-16T02:09:00 < zyp> I feel like Split() is one of those scons things that encourages bad habits
2024-10-16T02:09:10 < zyp> and also Flatten() or whatever it was called
2024-10-16T02:10:07 < qyx> naming functions (not even methods) with first capital to start with..
2024-10-16T02:10:20 < qyx> I am still not happy with that
2024-10-16T02:10:21 < ventYl> Core/Src/main.c
2024-10-16T02:10:22 < ventYl> why not?
2024-10-16T02:10:48 < zyp> I'm not doing anything special for those, users can do str.split() if they really want to, and manage append/extend themselves
2024-10-16T02:11:25 < zyp> flatten is obsolete now that python lets you can unpack iterables into lists
2024-10-16T02:11:28 < zyp> -can
2024-10-16T02:11:53 < zyp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/AVAzL#line-117 <- like this
2024-10-16T02:12:11 < zyp> each glob returns an iterable, the * unpacks it into the list
2024-10-16T02:12:24 < zyp> so it all ends up a single flat list
2024-10-16T02:13:18 < qyx> I like your erectscript more than sconscipt
2024-10-16T02:13:48 < zyp> karlp1, by the way, laks.hal.xxx or laks.periph.xxx for the generated peripheral instances?
2024-10-16T02:15:36 < karlp1> periph? I dunno, I just kind aam burnt by "hal" being automatically "high layer abstract failure to do what I wnat without another set of non-existant docs"
2024-10-16T02:15:47 < karlp1> I have no strong opinion on this
2024-10-16T02:16:04 < karlp1> just namepsacing laks is already a win IMO
2024-10-16T02:16:36 < zyp> yeah, the way I see it, the instance generation is not really abstracting that much
2024-10-16T02:18:06 < zyp> I'm thinking about adding a laks.drivers.xxx or something where you can get a SpiController or something that you stick a peripheral instance into, and *then* you get an abstracted API that works across multiple kinds of SPI interfaces
2024-10-16T02:19:29 < karlp1> ueah, that's something I think we missed wiht locm3, you need two (at least) layers.
2024-10-16T02:19:42 < zyp> I figure decoupling drivers from peripherals makes sense, since different applications calls for different ways of using the same peripherals
2024-10-16T02:19:42 < karlp1> one that gives you consistent predictable hardware access (we did this) 
2024-10-16T02:19:56 < karlp1> and a second one that lets you do more consistent corss family "app" usage
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2024-10-16T02:20:03 < karlp1> but drawin gthose lines is tricky :)
2024-10-16T02:20:33 < qyx> I am usig the kind zyp described
2024-10-16T02:20:34 < karlp1> much of laks, but very much not all, is the former.
2024-10-16T02:20:57 < zyp> so I can have a SpiController, and an I2cController and an I2cTarget and so on
2024-10-16T02:21:06 < qyx> I have a hardware specific driver which I initialize using hardware specific configs and stuff, in a port-specific init file
2024-10-16T02:21:14 < karlp1> yeah, in micropy land, handing an "app" level thing a "spi" object in the constructor is common and easily understood
2024-10-16T02:21:24 < qyx> and then it exports an abstract interface for applications
2024-10-16T02:21:25 < zyp> and they can each have overloaded implementations that accept different peripheral instance types
2024-10-16T02:22:18 < zyp> I've used this templated composition thing with the protobuf rpc and also with smolt that I find works really well
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2024-10-16T02:22:57 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.poast.org/pic/media%2FGZYF_X_XcAALX91.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
2024-10-16T02:23:05 < Laurenceb_> 4chan predicted joker movie
2024-10-16T02:23:09 < zyp> e.g. the pluggable transport thing here: https://github.com/zyp/smolt?tab=readme-ov-file#example-firmware
2024-10-16T02:23:33 < karlp1> jpa-: you have recursive links in the irc logs?
2024-10-16T02:24:05 < zyp> or these RPC servers: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/xqW59
2024-10-16T02:24:33 < zyp> so an obvious thing in laks to update to that pattern is the USB stack
2024-10-16T02:24:52 < qyx> zyp: what do you think about abusing erect to do lib management? when a file depends on a lib/src/*, it executes the patch, compile, clone targets, etc
2024-10-16T02:25:17 < zyp> qyx, how are you thinking?
2024-10-16T02:26:31 < qyx> I did that to scons, if something depends on any file from lib/src/*, it clones the lib durig the build process, patches it, adds lib sources to the tree/graph/whatecer and continues
2024-10-16T02:27:39 < qyx> but I wasn't able to make it look nice, so the dependency actually comes from Kconfig and every step makes buildroot-style .patched.stamp, .downloaded.stamp files
2024-10-16T02:28:23 < zyp> «something depends» being a header include or an object to link?
2024-10-16T02:28:31 < qyx> the point is to get rid of submodules because I had about 20 of them and I don't like cloning them all
2024-10-16T02:28:46 < qyx> header to include
2024-10-16T02:29:58 < karlp1> zyp: my current little mind project, barely started is to make a usb device like fuse.  so MSC appearance, but files are virtual, handled by callbacks in app code.
2024-10-16T02:30:23 < qyx> but I like it so far, so when going the NIH route I may as well do something custom for cloning
2024-10-16T02:30:26 < karlp1> idea/goal is skipping custom pyusb, even if that's "easy" but also skippin gbullshit serial shit.
2024-10-16T02:30:53 < karlp1> I'm a little surprised I've not see it done already, but looking to give it a go...
2024-10-16T02:31:10 < qyx> I am in for my stuff
2024-10-16T02:31:11 < zyp> karlp1, very rudimentary MSC code with virtual file: https://cgit.jvnv.net/cardio/tree/main.cpp
2024-10-16T02:31:25 < qyx> wanted to do it too, not that easy apparentyl
2024-10-16T02:31:46 < zyp> qyx, erect currently doesn't really support dynamic header dependencies, I'm using the compiler to tell me dependencies and it'll error if the headers doesn't exist when it gets to that task
2024-10-16T02:31:49 < karlp1> zyp: fix you rcigt install to do syntax highlighting?
2024-10-16T02:32:00 < karlp1> knew it was the right idea to bring it up with you though :)
2024-10-16T02:32:35 < zyp> karlp1, it broke a while ago, I complained to Jon who set up that cgit instance and he just disabled highlighting
2024-10-16T02:32:45 < karlp1> oh, ok then :)
2024-10-16T02:33:10 < zyp> and I CBA to fix it, I figure everything that matters will end up on github anyway
2024-10-16T02:33:40 < karlp1> zyp: nice file table mofo
2024-10-16T02:33:43 < karlp1> fuck you :)
2024-10-16T02:33:54 < qyx> zyp: that's the nice-to-have feature, I can also make the dependency explicit if possible
2024-10-16T02:34:14 < karlp1> you're doing similar to what I was planning tough, if the files are virtual, you can know what blocks explicitly correspond ot files, ignore the lenghts
2024-10-16T02:34:22 < zyp> karlp1, IIRC I made a disk file, formatted it, added the file, figured out what I needed, dropped the rest
2024-10-16T02:34:59 < qyx> lol the approach
2024-10-16T02:35:05 < qyx> not bad though
2024-10-16T02:35:18 < zyp> it's readonly, presents a file with the serial number of the scanned card
2024-10-16T02:36:02 < qyx> doesn't microsoft have somethig like that for firmware updates?
2024-10-16T02:36:06 < karlp1> yeah, I want to make it somewhat straightforward to have app register files and get callbacks, more like fuse.
2024-10-16T02:36:17 < karlp1> not quite so laks raw....
2024-10-16T02:36:37 < karlp1> and writable.
2024-10-16T02:36:59 < zyp> it exists for historical reasons -- people made bootleg arcade setups with usb ports were you could plug in a memory stick with a text file with a card number on it, and it'd emulate a card reader
2024-10-16T02:37:00 < karlp1> part of the goal is for my current load cell faking toy, so that robot tests can just "echo > file" with new configs,
2024-10-16T02:37:30 < zyp> and so I made a card reader that emulated a usb stick that emulated a card reader
2024-10-16T02:38:03 < zyp> qyx, yes, UF2
2024-10-16T02:38:22 < qyx> what about obex over serial over cdc-acm?
2024-10-16T02:38:22 < zyp> karlp1, the issue is that MSC is block, not file :)
2024-10-16T02:38:30 < karlp1> uf2 is like old mbed disk right?magic filename to drop "firmware.bin"  onto the disk
2024-10-16T02:38:37 < zyp> yeah
2024-10-16T02:38:41 < zyp> well
2024-10-16T02:38:43 < zyp> kinda
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2024-10-16T02:39:00 < karlp1> zyp: yeah, my naiive belief is if I just lie about the fat,  and say it's always at block X, I can just fake it.
2024-10-16T02:39:07 < zyp> UF2 is effectively a command-packet specification
2024-10-16T02:39:27 < karlp1> even if they write me 50 blocks I can still just say "yep, got it, still only one block long at this block"
2024-10-16T02:39:41 < karlp1> bu tyeah, lieing about read lengths might be tricker.
2024-10-16T02:40:03 < karlp1> because if I lie about the lenghts, it won't ever request the whole lot I'm guessing
2024-10-16T02:40:17 < karlp1> still.  it sounds like it has a lot of benefits for some usages,
2024-10-16T02:40:29 < zyp> the way UF2 solves it is that a file is a series of packets padded to 512B
2024-10-16T02:40:42 < karlp1> (I'll likely hav ea functional micropy module for interactive use, and never go further....)
2024-10-16T02:41:18 < zyp> so each packet is always written as a whole sector, and it doesn't matter where it gets written, firmware can just process the sector contents and ignore anything the filesystem layer does
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2024-10-16T02:42:08 < karlp1> yah, but uf2 is also a special _file_ format.
2024-10-16T02:42:13 < karlp1> it's not relly very useful for me.
2024-10-16T02:42:19 < zyp> yes, indeed
2024-10-16T02:42:40 < qyx> oh noice
2024-10-16T02:42:48 < qyx> good idea but not what I want
2024-10-16T02:43:04 < qyx> I want what karlp1 wants
2024-10-16T02:43:35 < karlp1> encourage me then :)
2024-10-16T02:43:40 < karlp1> or something....
2024-10-16T02:44:22 < karlp1> I'm also as close to  you as I'v ebeen in a while fyi, I'm enjoying https://tvrebel.cz/ in a hotel in prague :)
2024-10-16T02:44:52 < zyp> the thing about emulating filesystems is that you effectively need to eject/reenumerate when you want to update stuff from the firmware side, to invalidate anything the host has cached
2024-10-16T02:45:15 < karlp1> yeah, I'm very concerned abou thost filesystem caching :|
2024-10-16T02:45:24 < karlp1> I know any sort of lieing about disk will fuck shit up there.
2024-10-16T02:45:38 < karlp1> I suspect it's why this sort of thing hasn't been used more often.
2024-10-16T02:45:52 < zyp> I'd say don't expect to be able to update files while enumerated
2024-10-16T02:46:07 < qyx> karlp1: o_O still a 4h drive, what are you doing over there?
2024-10-16T02:46:08 < zyp> processing writes is much easier
2024-10-16T02:46:32 < karlp1> I want to let the host write/rewrite special files at their will,
2024-10-16T02:46:39 < karlp1> and read them ot get current values.
2024-10-16T02:46:48 < karlp1> if that doens't work, whol ehting is kind amooot.
2024-10-16T02:47:00 < zyp> I had a SD card in my camera that detected photos as they were stored and sent them over wifi
2024-10-16T02:47:01 < karlp1> and yeha, host fs cache is going to suck, but... gotta suck it and see.
2024-10-16T02:47:12 < karlp1> qyx: attending a welmec training course run by CIM
2024-10-16T02:47:21 < zyp> forget about «current values» :)
2024-10-16T02:47:44 < karlp1> it will read it once and cache it? never to be seen again?
2024-10-16T02:47:57 < zyp> my NFC reader does a soft-detach every time it scans a new card and then reenumerates
2024-10-16T02:48:00 < karlp1> there must be some way of hinting that a filesystem must be re-read though.
2024-10-16T02:48:11 < karlp1> oh gross, but I get it :|
2024-10-16T02:48:13 < zyp> yeah, reenumerating is that way :)
2024-10-16T02:48:34 < karlp1> I can tolerate not-re-reading....
2024-10-16T02:49:06 < karlp1> but if the quirks and handholing gets too much, it becomes veyr much "why not just provide a pyusb module" 
2024-10-16T02:49:17 < karlp1> it just seemed so tempting, when fuse "jus works"
2024-10-16T02:49:38 < zyp> or webusb, or ethernet emulation and a webui, or whatever
2024-10-16T02:49:41 < karlp1> (I've never tried fuse on windows or osx, so "just works" is relative"
2024-10-16T02:49:52 < zyp> just works for file emulation?
2024-10-16T02:49:54 < karlp1> yeah, plan is for rndis/NCM as well.
2024-10-16T02:50:02 < zyp> oh, wait, of course, fuse is a file layer
2024-10-16T02:50:04 < zyp> not block
2024-10-16T02:50:14 < karlp1> might be enough to just do that, provide a web endpoint and skip all of it.
2024-10-16T02:50:20 < zyp> yeah
2024-10-16T02:50:33 < zyp> laks.net might be a thing eventually :)
2024-10-16T02:51:09 < karlp1> I'd kinda hoped that MSC and some magical offsets might be actually easier, but yeah, the whole "lol, blocks only around here" is pretty muhc suck
2024-10-16T02:51:15 < zyp> IIRC I had it doing NDP replies before I went on vacation
2024-10-16T02:51:20 < karlp1> I actually looked at mtp as well, but that's.... different gross
2024-10-16T02:51:22 < zyp> haven't gotten back to it since I got back home
2024-10-16T02:53:32 < zyp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/YYJSH
2024-10-16T02:54:36 < qyx> karlp1: whats was wrong with mtp?
2024-10-16T02:54:47 < zyp> lack of host support?
2024-10-16T02:56:04 < karlp1> no, it just looked like it would be flaky host support for "just write this file there" type of operations
2024-10-16T02:56:18 < karlp1> I may still experiment with it, in my infinite post work motivated hours....
2024-10-16T02:57:01 < karlp1> reading the mtp class spec did not fill me with confidence that host side tools would be common/easy/comparable to "echo newval > /disk/config_knob_a"
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2024-10-16T02:57:28 < zyp> yeah
2024-10-16T02:57:50 < zyp> been some years since I touched mtp, but IIRC it was all upload/download shit, not a mounted filesystem
2024-10-16T02:58:11 < karlp1> and it really was, "if it's not as easy as 'fuse' shit, maybe just a pyusb based py module to import is actually ok...
2024-10-16T02:58:20 < karlp1> but, actually getting ahead of myself
2024-10-16T02:58:43 < karlp1> real test is in a few days when jlc lands and I can say whether my digipot emulator is viable or not.
2024-10-16T02:58:54 < karlp1> software is moot if the hardware doens't work :)
2024-10-16T02:59:53 < zyp> hmm, looking at that ethernet code, I'm reminded how I absolutely love this shit: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/YYJSH#line-400
2024-10-16T03:09:02 < qyx> host support? which os is unsupported nowadays?
2024-10-16T03:09:19 < qyx> it even works on lunix
2024-10-16T03:10:28 < qyx> but rest api over usb-ethernet of some sort is appealing
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2024-10-16T03:17:24 < zyp> yeah
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2024-10-16T03:36:02 < karlp1> host support for mtp as "select your pictures" is not the same as "echo newval > magic/file/on/virtual/disk"
2024-10-16T03:36:21 < karlp1> usb ethernet was on original beagleboner, and never took off, but it's fucking brilliant
2024-10-16T03:36:46 < karlp1> plugin, rndix/ncm, and dhcp, open up http://10.0.0.1 in a browser, winning.
2024-10-16T03:43:27 < zyp> my goal for laks.net is ipv6, ndp, mdns
2024-10-16T03:44:36 < zyp> I don't yet have any plans for it that requires ipv4, so initially I'm only gonna do ipv6 to keep it simple
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2024-10-16T09:03:15 < jpa-> karlp1: yes
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2024-10-16T10:33:43 < mawk> zyp: and slaac?
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2024-10-16T11:28:35 < zyp> mawk, not sure you even need that, link local addrs should be enough
2024-10-16T11:29:47 < BrainDamage> ll addresses are typically acquired through slaac
2024-10-16T11:32:23 < zyp> ah, right, they're also considered part of SLAAC
2024-10-16T11:32:42 < zyp> I tend to think of SLAAC as the prefix/router advertisement part
2024-10-16T11:37:16 < mawk> you can use eui64 and forgo the collision detection, and then you have an address without communication
2024-10-16T11:37:21 < mawk> but you need your MACs to actually be unique
2024-10-16T11:38:00 < mawk> and the joy of ipv6 is to have globally routable addresses anyway
2024-10-16T11:38:01 < BrainDamage> there's also the option of dhcpv6, but in practice and perhaps fortunately, very few do that
2024-10-16T11:38:03 < mawk> put your devices on the internet
2024-10-16T11:38:08 < mawk> yeah that's a sin
2024-10-16T11:38:26 < zyp> mawk, what, do you doubt my mac is unique? https://paste.jvnv.net/view/YYJSH#line-142
2024-10-16T11:38:40 < mawk> my server provider uses dhcpv6 for the prefix delegation
2024-10-16T11:38:42 < mawk> to give me the /48
2024-10-16T11:38:48 < mawk> lol zyp 
2024-10-16T11:39:03 < zyp> yeah, dhcpv6-pd is nice, and then the local router takes that prefix and advertises it for SLAAC
2024-10-16T11:39:40 < mawk> my home ISP does that, but the prefix is a /64
2024-10-16T11:39:42 < mawk> mega useless
2024-10-16T11:39:50 < mawk> I have to do dark magic with NDP proxy to split it further
2024-10-16T11:39:58 < zyp> I don't recall what I'm getting, /56 maybe
2024-10-16T11:40:11 < mawk> they really try to give as few addresses as possible for no reason
2024-10-16T11:40:31 < mawk> in paris I had /60 which is enough to split the network a bit
2024-10-16T11:40:53 < mawk> and the ISP provided router had builtin functionality for that which was cool; they even let me modify the reverse dns
2024-10-16T11:41:39 < zyp> yeah, /56 is what I'm getting
2024-10-16T11:41:55 < zyp> don't think I use more than one though
2024-10-16T11:43:38 < mawk> on my server I have a /64 for the main server, a /64 for the vms, a /64 for the trusted containers, a /64 for the untrusted containers and vms, and a /64 for the vpn clients
2024-10-16T11:44:01 < zyp> I was dicking around with elaborate vlan setups and bullshit a decade ago or so, and then tired of it before ISPs got decent ipv6 support
2024-10-16T11:44:06 < mawk> and then some magic happens with GRE tunnelling to make some VPN clients use my home connection
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2024-10-16T11:44:16 < mawk> for which I dedicated a /112
2024-10-16T11:44:27 < mawk> which is not what you're supposed to do but they only gave me a /64 so I did that
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2024-10-16T11:44:54 < zyp> nowadays I don't really give a shit
2024-10-16T11:45:06 < mawk> and hopefully collision detection makes it so that no legitimate LAN client uses part of the /112 that's already in use
2024-10-16T11:45:19 < mawk> but just probabilities do that already
2024-10-16T11:45:54 < mawk> I need some vpn clients to use my home connection instead of my paris connection because of dumb geoblocking at work
2024-10-16T11:46:01 < mawk> I can only use ms teams on a dutch IP
2024-10-16T11:46:09 < mawk> and I can only access the intranet on my paris IP
2024-10-16T11:46:16 < mawk> so I have to do stupid shit with ipset and iptables to fan it out
2024-10-16T11:47:02 < zyp> yeah, I don't work for anybody doing dumb shit like that
2024-10-16T11:47:56 < mawk> I am part of the résistance using linux at work, they gave up on having me install their spyware stuff from microsoft to monitor me
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--- Day changed to loka 17 2024
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2024-10-17T00:31:37 < karlp1> zyp: at least your "unique" mac didn't include broadcast bit set :)
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2024-10-17T00:32:04 < karlp1> (I accidentially di that with a "dummy fixed" mac address)
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2024-10-17T10:21:23 < zyp> karlp1, no, it's a perfectly valid address, properly picked from the AAI range
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2024-10-17T19:20:05 < Ecco> I'm having a hard time identifying a part on a PCB
2024-10-17T19:20:37 < Ecco> it's a 1x1mm SMD part. The case is *fully transparent*, and I can see a small piece of silicon inside, with 4 wire bonded
2024-10-17T19:20:53 < Ecco> The PCB marking says CR39 (no idea what "CR" stands for)
2024-10-17T19:21:05 < Ecco> PCB marking == silkscreen label
2024-10-17T19:22:13 < Ecco> and I don't think it's an LED
2024-10-17T19:23:09 < Ecco> Also, on the same PCB, there's an iMX RT1015, and apparently it is connected to *two* QSPI chips. What would be the point?
2024-10-17T19:23:32 < Ecco> (I meant 2 QSPI Nor flash chips - an 8Mbit one and a 32Mbit one)
2024-10-17T19:34:02 < jpa-> photo?
2024-10-17T19:34:46 < jpa-> and to which pins does the smd part connect to?
2024-10-17T19:34:49 < zyp> sounds like some sort of light sensor
2024-10-17T19:35:01 < zyp> I've seen those in transparent packages before
2024-10-17T19:35:55 < zyp> could of course also be a LED :p
2024-10-17T19:36:03 < jpa-> yeah, something like VEML6030
2024-10-17T19:40:29 < Ecco> Oh, yeah, looks *very much* like this
2024-10-17T19:40:55 < Ecco> And it would make sense actually (I think the device changes the brightness of some LEDs based off of ambient light)  
2024-10-17T19:41:01 < Ecco> good job, thanks!
2024-10-17T19:41:55 < jpa-> as for two chips, maybe firmware and filesystem
2024-10-17T19:42:05 < Ecco> yeah, that's weird tho
2024-10-17T19:42:09 < Ecco> I mean, the whole PCB is insae
2024-10-17T19:42:17 < Ecco> I'm tearing down an Amazon Smart Thermostat
2024-10-17T19:42:21 < Ecco> it's batshit insane
2024-10-17T19:42:32 < Ecco> Like there are two MCUs
2024-10-17T19:42:37 < Ecco> an iMX RT1050
2024-10-17T19:42:39 < Ecco> *and* an ESP32
2024-10-17T19:42:52 < jpa-> not sure about imx but on some processors running from qspi and writing to it is a bit annoying
2024-10-17T19:43:10 < Ecco> Well, I guess it would make sense. The iMX apparently doesn't have any onboard Flash
2024-10-17T19:43:17 < jpa-> it's common to use esp32 as wifi interface
2024-10-17T19:43:33 < Ecco> yeah, but I mean it's a thermostat
2024-10-17T19:43:42 < Ecco> I'm pretty sure an ESP32 can handle it on its own :)
2024-10-17T19:44:06 < jpa-> i assume fancy flashy gui?
2024-10-17T19:44:16 < Ecco> Plus it's a rather simple one, there's not even a screen, just a bunch of LEDs that act as an 8-segment display
2024-10-17T19:44:22 < jpa-> huh
2024-10-17T19:44:31 < jpa-> well then the imx is bit weird
2024-10-17T19:44:35 < Ecco> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08J4C8871
2024-10-17T19:44:43 < Ecco> In fact I've sniffed the network
2024-10-17T19:44:49 < Ecco> And they do cert pinning :(
2024-10-17T19:44:54 < jpa-> otherwise i would have assumed they had gui already and slapped wifi on top
2024-10-17T19:45:13 < Ecco> (Yeah, I'm trying to use this thermostat *WITHOUT* it connecting to the internet)
2024-10-17T19:46:08 < Ecco> The thermostat speaks MQTT
2024-10-17T19:46:23 < Ecco> And looks up a3m3y064hlyfsy-ats.iot.us-east-1.amazonaws.com
2024-10-17T19:46:27 < Ecco> I tried to spoof the DNS response
2024-10-17T19:46:37 < Ecco> but then the TLS connection is dropped :(
2024-10-17T19:46:46 < jpa-> good luck, it's purpose is to profit amazon, if it also happens to do something useful, that is just and excuse to get it sold
2024-10-17T19:46:52 < Ecco> :-D
2024-10-17T19:46:58 < Ecco> Well, I mean, the hardware is decent
2024-10-17T19:47:05 < Ecco> I kind of like the very minimalistic UI
2024-10-17T19:47:27 < jpa-> does it have button for plus and minus?
2024-10-17T19:47:29 < Ecco> I just wish I could, for example, retrieve the temperature and humidity
2024-10-17T19:47:40 < Ecco> Yeah, it's got 3 capacitive buttons
2024-10-17T19:48:00 < jpa-> so, just use separate sensor and be done :)
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2024-10-17T19:48:42 < Ecco> yeah, honestly, that's easy
2024-10-17T19:48:53 < Ecco> I got 3 thermostats tho
2024-10-17T19:49:06 < Ecco> plus I'd really like to just ditch that Alexa app that's a total crap
2024-10-17T19:49:37 < Ecco> So what I'm trying to do is dump the firmware
2024-10-17T19:49:40 < Ecco> and change the certificate
2024-10-17T19:49:46 < Ecco> to try and get it to talk to my local MQTT server
2024-10-17T19:49:49 < Ecco> and see how that goes
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2024-10-17T21:24:57 < zyp> my guess is that they already had thermostat with screen or something, and it was cheaper to just drop the display and keep the remaining architecture rather than port the application to run entirely on esp32
2024-10-17T21:26:46 < zyp> at work we often use nrf91 as a LTE add-on with the main application running on a nrf52, and I'm pretty sure we have some projects with that combination that doesn't even use the radio in the nrf52
2024-10-17T21:27:30 < zyp> which could then probably run entirely in the nrf91, but it's easier to just keep the typical infrastructure
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2024-10-17T23:19:54 < ventYl> because the software 'n' stuff is portable like a rocky mountain
2024-10-17T23:20:31 < Steffanx> i like your optimism ventYl 
2024-10-17T23:20:49 < Steffanx> and positivity
2024-10-17T23:21:46 < ventYl> yeah I have automotive HW on my desk once again
2024-10-17T23:21:53 < ventYl> i'll be more grumpy than usual
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--- Day changed pe loka 18 2024
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2024-10-18T01:08:46 < Ecco> Do you think I could reflash a ST-link v2 with stm32-vserprog?
2024-10-18T01:09:49 < qyx> grumpymotive
2024-10-18T01:09:57 < qyx> Ecco: whatdoes the interweb say?
2024-10-18T01:10:39 < Ecco> I don't know :)
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2024-10-18T12:16:03 < karlp1> Ecco: why?
2024-10-18T12:55:09 < jpa-> why not?
2024-10-18T13:19:46 < Steffanx> Why why not?
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2024-10-18T14:15:00 < karlp1> you're getting a worse device?
2024-10-18T14:15:38 < karlp1> oh, no, it does different things, I thought this was a "program stm32s over serial"
2024-10-18T14:15:48 < karlp1> but it's for making a flashrom programmer/reader.
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2024-10-18T15:21:00 < jbo> Steffanx
2024-10-18T15:24:56 < machinehum> jbo
2024-10-18T15:25:54 < jbo> wat
2024-10-18T15:26:05 < machinehum> nothing
2024-10-18T15:26:08 < jbo> good
2024-10-18T15:26:17 < jbo> >:(
2024-10-18T15:26:38 < machinehum> ;<8
2024-10-18T15:31:38 < jbo> (:o
2024-10-18T15:42:24 < jbo> machinehum
2024-10-18T16:05:31 < zyp> sup
2024-10-18T16:08:10 < machinehum> Hello everyone
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2024-10-18T17:25:13 < Steffanx> Hello Mr jbo. How is your day?
2024-10-18T17:25:27 < Steffanx> And Mr machinehum 
2024-10-18T17:25:31 < Steffanx> And the others
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2024-10-18T19:10:28 < ds2> 9
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2024-10-18T20:33:18 < Steffanx> jbo
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--- Day changed la loka 19 2024
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2024-10-19T02:52:04 < zyp> jpa-, I remembered to write a readme this time too, so here's another project you can use: https://github.com/zyp/erect
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2024-10-19T09:09:19 < jpa-> zyp: you named it to please Steffanx?
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2024-10-19T10:07:24 < Steffanx> Keep me out of this jpa- 
2024-10-19T10:10:25 < qyx> lol
2024-10-19T10:33:03 < antto> a 100% erect snek
2024-10-19T11:47:45 < jpa-> i'm sure Steffanx is happy to fit parts together with you
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2024-10-19T12:32:53 < BrainDamage> make sure to make a all-featured library called turgid
2024-10-19T12:59:41 < zyp> jpa-, it's public now, anybody gets to please themselves with it
2024-10-19T13:52:55 < Steffanx> Did dongs tell you to put it where the sun don't shine yet?
2024-10-19T13:59:30 < zyp> he hates python, so I have no doubt he will
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2024-10-19T18:33:48 < qyx> zyp: do you provide communitysupport?
2024-10-19T18:46:40 -!- hexo_ [~hexo@user/hexo] has joined ##stm32
2024-10-19T18:50:39 < zyp> what do you have in mind?
2024-10-19T18:53:24 < qyx> I want modules and it is more concise tha  scons, I would give it a try but I may get stuck
2024-10-19T18:54:27 < zyp> ah, sure
2024-10-19T18:54:54 < zyp> for firmware or host application?
2024-10-19T19:05:58 < qyx> for my daq framework(firmware)
2024-10-19T19:10:15 < zyp> that's the thing it's designed to do then :)
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2024-10-19T19:44:35 < zyp> qyx, anything you need to get you started?
2024-10-19T19:44:53 < antto> viagra
2024-10-19T19:44:58  * antto hides
2024-10-19T19:45:30 < antto> wasn't there a better name for that thing?
2024-10-19T19:46:08 < zyp> what do you mean, it's great -- it's short, descriptive and available anywhere
2024-10-19T19:48:07 < qyx> yeah to be flu-free
2024-10-19T19:57:39 < antto> would you use that at $work honestly? ;P~
2024-10-19T19:57:51 < antto> i mean, would you tell your $boss you're using it
2024-10-19T19:57:58 < antto> >:)
2024-10-19T20:02:54 < jpa-> instead of "failing build" you can now say "dysfunctional erection"
2024-10-19T20:20:40 < Steffanx> lol jpa-
2024-10-19T20:34:37 < jpa-> it's a bit disappointing that it defaults to "build/" instead of "erection/"
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2024-10-19T21:04:09 < zyp> jpa-, you're free to change it
2024-10-19T21:06:20 < BrainDamage> default is about sending a message tho
2024-10-19T21:06:50 < zyp> I don't think that's a message I want to send :)
2024-10-19T21:20:12 < jpa-> all these years of ##stm32 have made zyp think that "erect" is a perfectly innocent name
2024-10-19T21:21:01 < zyp> oh, no, not at all
2024-10-19T21:21:17 < zyp> I just think that if I deadpan it, I can get away with it :)
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--- Day changed su loka 20 2024
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2024-10-20T00:37:35 < nomorekaki> hello early
2024-10-20T00:39:41 < zyp> sup
2024-10-20T00:43:19 < nomorekaki> nothing much
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2024-10-20T09:38:35 < antto> oh well, as the author of "pimpmykicadbom" i should stfu ;P~
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--- Day changed ma loka 21 2024
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2024-10-21T12:47:57 < karlp1> found a random icelander through an unexpected name on openocd commits, and ... https://sigurasg.github.io/reversing-the-2465/
2024-10-21T12:48:00 < karlp1> they're doing weird shit!
2024-10-21T13:16:04 < ventYl> cool
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2024-10-21T14:36:29 < qyx> I ffound one on youtubez too, he was trying to explain how to use numbers in icelandish
2024-10-21T15:16:20 < jpa-> is it worse than in french?
2024-10-21T15:16:50 < ventYl> that's probably not technically possible
2024-10-21T15:16:58 < ventYl> unless you do Roman
2024-10-21T15:17:10 < ventYl> Roman is definitely worse because they did not have 0
2024-10-21T15:17:58 < jpa-> the danish "half third times 20" is a bit funny too, but then it is just a name and you don't need to care about it
2024-10-21T15:18:16 < machinehum> Fucking wifi jibber doesn't work
2024-10-21T15:19:30 < zyp> jpa-, halvtres
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2024-10-21T17:00:17 < qyx> wut half third times
2024-10-21T17:01:55 < qyx> https://www.omniglot.com/language/numbers/icelandic.htm
2024-10-21T17:02:42 < karlp1> seems pretty ordinary compared to danish/french...
2024-10-21T17:03:06 < karlp1> just cases for 1..4
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2024-10-21T17:40:21 < zyp> icelandic looks very similar to norwegian, although I think only our cardinal one is gendered
2024-10-21T17:40:59 < zyp> unless I'm forgetting, two and up is not, and no ordinals are
2024-10-21T17:42:48 < jpa-> gendered languages are weird
2024-10-21T17:43:07 < zyp> yeah
2024-10-21T17:43:58 < jpa-> in finland we only have sensible categorizations, like classifying cities and towns based on whether you live on top of them or inside them
2024-10-21T17:44:06 < zyp> especially the part where you go «why is noun x male and noun y female?» «I have no idea, it's just like that»
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2024-10-21T17:46:03 < jbo> don't forget that german has a third one - "genderless"
2024-10-21T17:46:13 < jbo> der (male), die (female), das (genderless)
2024-10-21T17:46:17 < zyp> we have that too
2024-10-21T17:46:47 < jpa-> also what's up with "en" and "ett"
2024-10-21T17:46:52 < zyp> en gutt, ei jente, et hus
2024-10-21T17:47:51 < jbo> french only does male & female
2024-10-21T17:48:05 < jbo> but to compensate they have over 20 different grammatical tenses.
2024-10-21T17:48:09 < jbo> of which I ever only learned 11
2024-10-21T17:48:17 < zyp> jpa-, what part of it?
2024-10-21T17:48:55 < zyp> en gutt: a boy, én gutt - one boy, et hus: a house, ett hus: one house
2024-10-21T17:49:14 < jpa-> hmm, so "ett" is genderless?
2024-10-21T17:49:26 < jpa-> so does swedish only have male and genderless? :D
2024-10-21T17:49:35 < zyp> hmm, maybe
2024-10-21T17:49:41 < zyp> some norwegian dialects do too
2024-10-21T17:49:53 < jpa-> that must be what has confused me about en/ett
2024-10-21T17:49:56 < zyp> you can treat every female noun as male
2024-10-21T17:49:59 < ventYl> jbo: german has male/female/genderless but they use it deliberately as they wish
2024-10-21T17:50:17 < jbo> ventYl, it's much worse in swiss german
2024-10-21T17:50:37 < jpa-> also swedish only has "ett" so it is both "a house" and "one house"
2024-10-21T17:51:16 < jbo> ett bq25756
2024-10-21T17:51:19 < jpa-> until you get familiar with the house and it becomes huset
2024-10-21T17:51:20  * jbo ducks
2024-10-21T17:51:39 < ventYl> jbo: we have the same and TBH I can't derive the rules for selecting "gender" of words
2024-10-21T17:51:39 < zyp> I think we only distinguish for male and neuter, ei jente means both a and one
2024-10-21T17:51:46 < ventYl> like, why tram is "she"
2024-10-21T17:51:51 < ventYl> but bus is "he"
2024-10-21T17:51:51 < jpa-> jbo: don't worry, i had to touch my max77975 project and my anger got redirected
2024-10-21T17:52:01 < jbo> ahahaha
2024-10-21T17:52:02 < ventYl> and bucket is "it"
2024-10-21T17:52:11 < jbo> jpa-, let me know if we have to do our jabbing ritual
2024-10-21T17:52:23 < jpa-> jbo: have you been fitting together parts with zyp yet?
2024-10-21T17:52:37 < jbo> no. zyp and I roll a bit differently
2024-10-21T17:52:49 < ventYl> so, I have made tinyusb project working in ~three weeks, qyx thinks I done something very wrong
2024-10-21T17:52:53 < ventYl> I think that too
2024-10-21T17:52:55 < jbo> jabbing will forever be ours, jpa- 
2024-10-21T17:52:56 < zyp> in norwegian I can say «en hund» or «ei bikkje», they both means «a dog»
2024-10-21T17:52:59 < jpa-> yeah, your roll is a bit bumpier because of the bigger parts..
2024-10-21T17:53:40 < jbo> well, on zyp's side he even needs special tooling to erect
2024-10-21T17:53:45 < jbo> so think of that as you wish
2024-10-21T17:54:30 < zyp> ventYl, three weeks to get a tinyusb project to work?
2024-10-21T17:54:36 < zyp> what does «work» mean here?
2024-10-21T17:54:51 < jpa-> i hope the usb part didn't take 3 weeks
2024-10-21T17:56:05 < zyp> hope it didn't take three weeks just to get it to enumerate :)
2024-10-21T17:57:16 < jpa-> by hackadays standards it works if it makes a blimblom sound when you plug it in   https://hackaday.com/2023/05/09/minimal-usb-device-connects-with-just-a-couple-of-resistors/
2024-10-21T17:57:19 < ventYl> zyp: libusb can talk to the device, device does as application using libusb commands and then device reports stuff back for the application to read it
2024-10-21T17:57:27 < qyx> my usb expectations are one week to enumerate, one week to transfer some data, another week to boot windows, another one to actually to something with usb on windows, etc.
2024-10-21T17:58:08 < qyx> *do
2024-10-21T17:58:27 < jpa-> my usb expectations are 5 hours to enumerate and transfer data, 5 more hours to full functionality, a few years until the last few bugs have been figured out
2024-10-21T17:58:56 < qyx> you are a brave finnisher
2024-10-21T17:59:23 < jpa-> assuming no special weirdo protocol to implement.. like, say, rndis..
2024-10-21T17:59:24 < ventYl> this was my first USB device, if I don't count AVRUSB
2024-10-21T17:59:26 < zyp> that sounds more realistic
2024-10-21T18:00:31 < jbo> jpa- writes his endpoint descriptors while walking barefoot through a snowy forest wearing only a bear fur coat he cut himself
2024-10-21T18:02:26 < jpa-> https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/rndis2.png   the rndis implementation i was partially responsible for in a client project had a funny bug where it stopped communicating for a few seconds if keepalive and query messages were received within same USB frame.. that took a while to figure out, even though it was a totally stupid bug and should have been readily apparent from reading the code
2024-10-21T18:03:53 < jpa-> normally windows only sends query messages rarely, but if you open the network settings it begins sending them once a second
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2024-10-21T18:31:57 < qyx> so my expectations are a bit off
2024-10-21T18:32:16 < ventYl> I still need to convince windows it wants to attach winusb to the device
2024-10-21T18:45:08 < karlp1> qyx: load cell faking via digipots works fantastically. super happy
2024-10-21T18:45:36 < karlp1> fuck expensive resistors, who needs that shit.
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2024-10-21T19:32:02 < jpa-> ventYl: time for the funny extra descriptors
2024-10-21T19:32:20 < karlp1> got a manuf defect from jlc though, theyv'e munched one of the buttons. it "works" but it doens't click properly.
2024-10-21T19:39:35 < qyx> karlp1: did you check stability over temp?
2024-10-21T19:39:50 < karlp1> well, I know it won't be.
2024-10-21T19:39:55 < karlp1> but that wasn't the goal.
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2024-10-21T19:41:36 < ventYl> jpa-: I have them declared but as of now they just confuse windows even more than when they weren't presnet
2024-10-21T19:41:48 < ventYl> it seems that there is some very obsolete info out there on how to deliver them
2024-10-21T19:42:01 < ventYl> and tinyusb does not help the case with absolute lack of the documentation
2024-10-21T19:42:29 < jpa-> yeah, there are at least version 1 and version 2 of that stuff
2024-10-21T19:42:55 < ventYl> more like there's the 0xEE descriptor way to request them and then there's BOS
2024-10-21T19:44:25 < jpa-> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/usbcon/microsoft-defined-usb-descriptors  well, they call it 1.0 and 2.0
2024-10-21T19:47:02 < Steffanx> What was this FreeCAD fork/clone/alternative/whatever you call it that was jpa- approved again?
2024-10-21T19:47:32 < jpa-> Steffanx: https://github.com/Ondsel-Development/FreeCAD/releases
2024-10-21T19:47:39 < Steffanx> ondsel it was indeed
2024-10-21T19:48:08 < jpa-> though i haven't tried freecad 1.0 RC, i think it has incorporated some of the new stuff
2024-10-21T19:50:07 < Steffanx> Anything jpa- approved is amazing
2024-10-21T19:50:41 < Steffanx> although... jbo used to be jpa- approved..
2024-10-21T19:51:05 < jpa-> i ordered https://www.ebay.com/itm/166513658967 but i don't know yet if i will approve
2024-10-21T19:52:28 < Steffanx> Ill keep refreshing the essential scrap blog.
2024-10-21T19:52:46 < jpa-> i don't do product reviews there
2024-10-21T19:53:12 < Steffanx> But the necessary fixes will end up there
2024-10-21T19:53:38 < jpa-> only if i bother, which i haven't been doing much lately
2024-10-21T19:54:33 < jpa-> when is naffets.nl going to get more content?
2024-10-21T19:55:24 < jbo> Steffanx :o
2024-10-21T19:55:49 < Steffanx> Im not involved in the development of that website anymore jpa-
2024-10-21T19:55:59 < jbo> yes, freecad 1.0 includes the ondsel solver for assemblies. seems to work on my end.
2024-10-21T20:00:29 < qyx> naffets is some weird translation for waffels?
2024-10-21T20:00:36 < jbo> yes
2024-10-21T20:00:37 < jbo> exactly that
2024-10-21T20:00:42 < jbo> don't even think of anything else
2024-10-21T20:01:12 < jbo> my whole world collapsed once I was told the real case
2024-10-21T20:01:16 < jbo> trust me you don't want that.
2024-10-21T20:01:18 < jbo> I still haven't recovered
2024-10-21T20:01:22 < qyx> wat
2024-10-21T20:01:34 < Steffanx> Yes as xyq would be a weird translation for.. that wannabee cola i forgot the name of
2024-10-21T20:01:54 < qyx> you are a cola wannabe
2024-10-21T20:01:59 < qyx> kofola it is called
2024-10-21T20:01:59 < Steffanx> Kofola
2024-10-21T20:03:10 < Steffanx> It's my last name obviously.
2024-10-21T20:03:19 < jbo> yes!
2024-10-21T20:03:35 < jpa-> now we finally know
2024-10-21T20:03:49 < jpa-> i always thought it was naffets, but it was Steffan Kofola!!
2024-10-21T20:03:53 < jbo> and jbo is just a flipped jpa
2024-10-21T20:04:00 < jbo> hence we have the agreement that one keeps the - at all times
2024-10-21T20:04:21 < jpa-> i have the -, you have the o
2024-10-21T20:04:53 < jbo> :>
2024-10-21T20:07:37 < jbo> so apparently some swisser travelled to romania to meet his great-great-grandfather graf dracula. so he stole a car, took some drugs and caused several accidents
2024-10-21T20:11:22 < Steffanx> and to get his gold back?
2024-10-21T20:23:38 < qyx> so have they met?
2024-10-21T21:06:28 < Steffanx> Following some FreeCAD tutorial "At the top of the combo box, in the Tasks panel, you can read the number of degrees of freedom of the already sketched elements: it must be about 6" ... is 7 about 6?
2024-10-21T21:06:58 < qyx> probably yes
2024-10-21T21:07:57 < jpa-> i don't know why you'd care before you start constraining
2024-10-21T21:08:50 < Steffanx> It also explains the next step is to get to 0 DoF, but WTF is about 6. :P
2024-10-21T21:09:45 < Steffanx> jbo wouldnt approve. 5" is not about 6"
2024-10-21T21:10:44 < jpa-> it's more fun if you let jbo have a DOF or two when you constrain him
2024-10-21T21:11:06 < Steffanx> Aaah alright
2024-10-21T21:18:46 < jbo> :3
2024-10-21T21:23:40 < karlp1> doh, running two servos off usb on an extension browns out.  what a surprise. :)
2024-10-21T21:23:51 < Steffanx> Anyway my sketch is green, so all is good.
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2024-10-21T21:40:24 < ds2> is freecad responsive enough to be usable now?last I tried, it was painfully slow
2024-10-21T21:41:13 < BrainDamage> never had performance issues
2024-10-21T21:41:33 < jpa-> it is fast enough for most of the stuff i try to do with it, but sometimes i make a model that gets annoyingly slow to modify
2024-10-21T21:41:35 < BrainDamage> maybe some shady email business could help you?
2024-10-21T21:42:10 < ds2> it was fast enough to load and use it to convert but anything else was painfully slow
2024-10-21T21:42:49 < ventYl> I've drawn rather complicated models on not that much powerful hardware in it
2024-10-21T21:43:08 < jpa-> the performance totally depends on the model, but i'm pretty sure some commercial packages will be faster than freecad
2024-10-21T21:50:33 < jpa-> https://jyväskylä.hacklab.fi/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/P1020692-scaled.jpg  this map thingy with 8000 vertices was too much for freecad at the time, but now that i load it, it seems quite ok; i guess later freecad and more powerful computer help
2024-10-21T22:17:34 < qyx> step import is annoyingly slow
2024-10-21T22:18:07 < qyx> you can go make a coffee while openig a 50mb step file
2024-10-21T22:28:48 < Steffanx> I was like: lets try that, but i dont have step files that large.
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2024-10-21T22:54:22 < jbo> I had to load an 800 MB step file the other day
2024-10-21T22:54:25 < jbo> geez...
2024-10-21T22:54:47 < Steffanx> SolidWorks wont like that either on the average machine
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2024-10-21T22:57:17 < qyx> it is funny that export is fast
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2024-10-21T23:01:28 < ds2> IIRC, it might have been a step export from eagle
2024-10-21T23:01:45 < ds2> guess I'll give a try.
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--- Day changed ti loka 22 2024
2024-10-22T00:14:13 < antto> jbo, did someone model a thing on the molecular level? ;P~
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2024-10-22T01:13:29 < qyx> so if I wanted to have the same webUI on both an embedded target and a openwrt equipped board, what should I do with basic device config (network, etc)
2024-10-22T01:13:51 < qyx> should I NIH it again?
2024-10-22T01:14:46 < qyx> the goal is to minimize the server side code, so ideally make it very tiny
2024-10-22T01:15:24 < qyx> and idk if it is easier to replicate uci/ubus functionality on the embedded target or reinvent it again
2024-10-22T01:17:28 < qyx> also, I am not entirely sure if I want to vendor-lock to uci/ubus, because I may eventually want to support systemd-based linux systems too
2024-10-22T01:21:04 < qyx> hm, also I don't want to deal with lua
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2024-10-22T01:25:35 < qyx> maybe the easiest thing is to do thin layers for every system supported, the protocol dictated by the most resource constrained platform (that is, the embedded one)
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2024-10-22T01:59:34 < \dev\ice> I heard today sometink callem "stm32 nbus" also heart like it's uart with 2 mhz. any ideas what they reffered?
2024-10-22T02:00:02 < zyp> canbus?
2024-10-22T02:00:43 < \dev\ice> thought about this - maybe. 
2024-10-22T02:01:17 < zyp> well, it's not really like uart and typically not 2 mhz either
2024-10-22T02:01:52 < zyp> traditional can tops out at 1 MHz, and can-fd does 5 MHz, is it? or 8 MHz?
2024-10-22T02:02:47 < zyp> and it's a framed protocol with id and address
2024-10-22T02:03:39 < \dev\ice> wgat else i was found similar is TMod+ 
2024-10-22T02:03:48 < \dev\ice> STMod+
2024-10-22T02:03:52 < zyp> m-bus?
2024-10-22T02:04:17 < zyp> sorry, mikrobus I mean
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2024-10-22T02:04:51 < zyp> those are pinout/connector standards
2024-10-22T02:06:48 < \dev\ice> maybe. if i missreas it was "nbus"  or "stm32 nbus"
2024-10-22T02:07:43 < zyp> not aware of anything called nbus
2024-10-22T02:07:53 < qyx> maybe coincidence, but I am using a CAN-PHY uart at 4M max and calling it 'nbus'
2024-10-22T02:07:55 < \dev\ice> funny thing - guys ariunds did not knew this too. one took pen and drote this on the skim (proable to look forward)
2024-10-22T02:08:22 < qyx> where did you see it?
2024-10-22T02:08:31 < \dev\ice> can makes lots of sense because it looked like multidrop bus
2024-10-22T02:08:33 < qyx> I guess it is not even googleable yet
2024-10-22T02:08:51 < \dev\ice> [02:08:22] < qyx> where did you see it?
2024-10-22T02:09:16 < \dev\ice> today, one manager drawed diagran and explained how this in on them now
2024-10-22T02:09:58 < \dev\ice> i'll ask them tomorow :_) 
2024-10-22T02:10:14 < qyx> https://nwdaq-r3.pages.dev/#nwdaq-nbus2-data-bus
2024-10-22T02:10:19 < qyx> but it is a secret
2024-10-22T02:11:09 < qyx> so don't tell them
2024-10-22T02:11:27 < \dev\ice> :-)
2024-10-22T02:11:49 < qyx> I had very specific reasons for abusing things in this manner, not yet field proven
2024-10-22T02:12:28 < zyp> qyx, how's your flu going?
2024-10-22T02:13:31 < qyx> zyp: 48h of antibiotics now, not a flu, streptoccocus pyogenes or whatshit
2024-10-22T02:13:43 < zyp> oh, sucks
2024-10-22T02:13:49 < zyp> well, flu sucks too
2024-10-22T02:14:24 < qyx> wifeqyx has that too and the kid is gonna be examined tomorrow
2024-10-22T02:15:30 < qyx> I guess tomorrow or the day after I may be able to do some work
2024-10-22T02:16:54 < zyp> I've got some eye infection that's probably bacterial
2024-10-22T02:17:47 < zyp> it's not really bothering me except right after I wake up, so I figured I'll just be lazy and wait it out
2024-10-22T02:18:40 < zyp> but it's lasted for a couple of weeks now, so I should probably go to the doctor and get some antibiotic eye drops or whatever the shit is to deal with this
2024-10-22T02:20:37 < qyx> yeah ofloxacin drops
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2024-10-22T12:18:44 < mawk> zapzypzupzop
2024-10-22T12:19:01 < mawk> are you blind in one eye now zyp 
2024-10-22T12:23:16 < zyp> nah
2024-10-22T13:25:47 < Steffanx> Eye surgery is fun though. Can recommend 😋
2024-10-22T14:36:18 < ventYl> 9 out of 10 steffanxs do recommend it?
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2024-10-22T15:49:37 < Steffanx> 10/10. Especially with local anesthesia. If you're lucky you can see them poke your eye(s)
2024-10-22T15:58:03 < zyp> best part is that if something goes wrong, you won't see the consequences
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2024-10-22T17:49:36 < qyx> can they poke a hot bus?
2024-10-22T18:37:41 < karlp1> qyx: using PWM on a resistor in the bridge is "simpler" as it's linear: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/80M88/linearity-test1.png
2024-10-22T18:38:02 < karlp1> the pwm noise is visible on a scope, vs the digipots, but the AFE just throws it all out.
2024-10-22T18:38:32 < karlp1> so two overlapping exponential curves from coarse/fine digipots vs one single linear pwm.
2024-10-22T18:38:42 < karlp1> I hated the pwm solution up front, but it seems like it's just "better" 
2024-10-22T18:38:55 < karlp1> I'd like to do some more stability checks of the two methods though
2024-10-22T18:57:01 < qyx> that's interesting
2024-10-22T18:57:17 < qyx> I guess we should do some innovative business
2024-10-22T18:59:48 < karlp1> there's still more noise than I expected, but I guess you can't get away from using fancier resistors eventaully.
2024-10-22T19:00:22 < karlp1> also, weirdly, after setting both digipots and PWM value, the ADC counts I'm getting sag over about a minute, before stabilising.
2024-10-22T19:14:21 < qyx> some sort of aliasing?
2024-10-22T19:15:26 < qyx> anyway, this is sane method if your digitizer/sampler is known
2024-10-22T19:15:46 < qyx> it could depend on the frontend, exc and the adc itself pretty much
2024-10-22T19:16:50 < qyx> one could argue the only legit method to simulate a resistor is by using a resistor
2024-10-22T19:18:24 < karlp1> ok, the sagging is almost definitely because I have to switch boards to try the two mehtods, and teh 350ohm bridge resistors warm up a little?
2024-10-22T19:18:34 < karlp1> the curve is probably just a calculation error on my part.
2024-10-22T19:19:00 < karlp1> I'm probably not properly counting the digipot plus the series resistor into it.
2024-10-22T19:19:10 < karlp1> I'm just linearly interp the pot steps.
2024-10-22T19:19:24 < karlp1> so the curve isn't real, I would  just need to do better mathds.
2024-10-22T19:19:30 < karlp1> another vote for pwm though.
2024-10-22T19:21:30 < qyx> oh yeah you have to account for the self heating effect unless they are attached to a large thermal mass and your measurement is quick
2024-10-22T19:21:45 < qyx> if you can't guarantee, you have to wait until stable
2024-10-22T19:22:09 < karlp1> it stabilizes quickly even after stepping "loads" because it's just the warming up of the primary 350ohm I _believe_
2024-10-22T19:22:39 < qyx> yesonly the main bridge heats and only the derivative is important
2024-10-22T19:22:41 < karlp1> colleague is very happy though, he wants to buy a set of resistors for one board, see how much better it gets.
2024-10-22T19:23:14 < karlp1> I want to just work on the software, make it cool and easier to use for people.
2024-10-22T19:23:38 < karlp1> but... probably going to have to do actual work instead :)
2024-10-22T19:27:05 < karlp1> loadcells are nice and clean in comparison: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/RJ0fe.png
2024-10-22T19:27:48 < karlp1> some of the "noise" on the loadcell line is probably me tapping feet or bumping the desk :)
2024-10-22T19:30:39 < qyx> sigma is 890 counta?
2024-10-22T19:30:58 < qyx> how many uV/V is that?
2024-10-22T19:31:43 < karlp1> flintec pc30? says 2mv/v fullscale, 3000 divs.
2024-10-22T19:32:16 < qyx> you are at 4M
2024-10-22T19:32:22 < qyx> how could it be 3000 counts?
2024-10-22T19:35:20 < karlp1> what?
2024-10-22T19:35:34 < karlp1> this is counts of a 32bit adc.
2024-10-22T19:43:36 < qyx> yes but input/afe noise is important, so I want to convert your counts to uV/V
2024-10-22T19:45:19 < qyx> anyway I don't know the gain so meh
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2024-10-22T20:13:43 < qyx> no comet.
2024-10-22T20:14:17 < qyx> lies. pure lies
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2024-10-22T20:27:56 < qyx> nevermind karlp1, me being dumb
2024-10-22T20:28:33 < qyx> so sigma is 890/2**31 of FS, so 0.000828877 uV
2024-10-22T20:28:58 < qyx> thats 10x better than my converters using 24 bit ADCs
2024-10-22T20:30:32 < qyx> -> I should use 32bit too!
2024-10-22T20:31:27 < zyp> more better
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2024-10-22T22:08:27 < qyx> but I should also consider that your ADC is at 2 mV/V and mine at 10 mV/V FS
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2024-10-22T23:05:01 < Ecco> Hi :)
2024-10-22T23:05:18 < Ecco> Dumb question: on a prototype/debug PCB, what do you guys use to easily hook a DMM or a scope?
2024-10-22T23:06:10 < Ecco> The scopes I have come with some spring-loaded hook probes that are okay-ish 
2024-10-22T23:06:20 < Ecco> And some needle-like probes too
2024-10-22T23:06:21 < Ecco> same for DMM
2024-10-22T23:06:29 < Ecco> those are okay when you're trying to probe a random PCB
2024-10-22T23:06:43 < Ecco> but the connection is definitely not reliable (you have to hold the probe with your hands)
2024-10-22T23:06:55 < BrainDamage> if it's a pcb you design yourself, you can add test points
2024-10-22T23:06:57 < Ecco> so on a PCB I'm designing, I'm sure there are better alternatives
2024-10-22T23:07:06 < Ecco> Yeah, well, test points feel… not ideal?
2024-10-22T23:07:08 < BrainDamage> the probe should have a spring that you fit on a collar
2024-10-22T23:07:11 < Ecco> I mean, sure, it's easier to aim
2024-10-22T23:07:25 < Ecco> but I'd like something I can just "plug" and forget
2024-10-22T23:07:38 < BrainDamage> once you do, you have two holes you'll plug the spring and lead, and it'll measure there
2024-10-22T23:07:48 < Ecco> hmm, would you have a photo?
2024-10-22T23:08:10 < BrainDamage> https://i.sstatic.net/PSo3N.jpg
2024-10-22T23:08:24 < Ecco> Oh, ok, indeed, they do have this
2024-10-22T23:08:32 < Ecco> I never quite figured how it was supposed to work
2024-10-22T23:08:48 < Ecco> What I had in mind was something kind of like 2.54mm header pins
2024-10-22T23:08:51 < Ecco> *many* PCB have those
2024-10-22T23:09:05 < Ecco> and the accompanying cables (often female-female, I don't really know the name) are ubiquitous
2024-10-22T23:09:08 < BrainDamage> and if you want, you can just fit u.fl connectors
2024-10-22T23:09:40 < BrainDamage> https://citizenside.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/exploring-the-u-fl-connector-and-its-applications-1703240650.jpg
2024-10-22T23:09:45 < Ecco> (random amazon link: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08151TQHG/)
2024-10-22T23:10:03 < Ecco> ok, that's more like what I'm interested in indeed
2024-10-22T23:10:19 < Ecco> why specfically a U.fl connector? I've only ever seen those for WiFi antennas on small PCBs
2024-10-22T23:10:44 < Ecco> What about an ammeter or a voltmeter? How could I easily and reliably connect my DMM to a PCB?
2024-10-22T23:10:59 < Ecco> On the PCB side I feel like those 2.54mm-pitched header pins are rather "standard"
2024-10-22T23:11:05 < Ecco> but then I never quite know how to connect my DMM to those
2024-10-22T23:11:11 < Ecco> (DMM or scope for that matter)
2024-10-22T23:11:33 < Ecco> ANd I feel like this is a super dumb question because, well, I guess I'm not the only one in what I assume is a rather common scenario
2024-10-22T23:12:30 < Ecco> I understand why a DMM or scope would come with pin-like test probes (because they will work with litteraly anything), yet they can't allow a reliable, hands-free connection, so I assume there must be some kind of standard "connector" for this situation?
2024-10-22T23:13:14 < BrainDamage> because usually the things you want to measure are high speed signals
2024-10-22T23:13:24 < BrainDamage> and pin header strips ruin signal integrity
2024-10-22T23:13:46 < BrainDamage> if it's instead low speed, then a regular pin header strip works, yes
2024-10-22T23:13:47 < Ecco> oh, ok, that makes sense
2024-10-22T23:14:02 < Ecco> so wait, like if I want to probe say an SPI bus
2024-10-22T23:14:12 < Ecco> putting a header pin damages the signal?
2024-10-22T23:14:19 < BrainDamage> not particularly high speed
2024-10-22T23:14:20 < Ecco> Like how fast are we talking really?
2024-10-22T23:14:38 < BrainDamage> hundreds of MHz
2024-10-22T23:14:41 < Ecco> I mean, SPI can be pretty damn fast
2024-10-22T23:14:47 < Ecco> ok
2024-10-22T23:14:59 < Ecco> so for instance if I'm using a fast QSPI nor flash
2024-10-22T23:15:05 < Ecco> then maybe debugging with header pins is a bad idea?
2024-10-22T23:15:10 < BrainDamage> you'll still ruin the signal a bit even with spi
2024-10-22T23:15:16 < zyp> Ecco, yeah
2024-10-22T23:15:20 < Ecco> ok, that's good to know
2024-10-22T23:15:21 < BrainDamage> you'll see the edges becomes smoother, and maybe some ringing
2024-10-22T23:15:31 < Ecco> hmm, ok, interesting. Makes sense
2024-10-22T23:15:36 < BrainDamage> but you'll still be able to distinguish things
2024-10-22T23:15:38 < Ecco> so what do you guys use in either scenarios?
2024-10-22T23:15:47 < Ecco> I understand that U.fl is good for high speed?
2024-10-22T23:15:59 < Ecco> Then would a U.fl <-> BNC cable be common?
2024-10-22T23:16:05 < BrainDamage> yes, but most importantly, it takes tiny amount of space
2024-10-22T23:16:17 < BrainDamage> you don't want you test pads waste space on the pcb
2024-10-22T23:16:21 < Ecco> yes indeed
2024-10-22T23:16:26 < BrainDamage> and you'll likely populate them only on prototypes
2024-10-22T23:16:36 < Ecco> which echose one of my concerns for the slower signals
2024-10-22T23:16:42 < zyp> or you could just buy some nice probes
2024-10-22T23:16:44 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/SaCBg.jpg
2024-10-22T23:16:45 < Ecco> I *could* use 2MM female banana plug connectors
2024-10-22T23:16:48 < Ecco> but those are *huge*
2024-10-22T23:16:53 < zyp> that's a qspi flash
2024-10-22T23:17:00 < Ecco> oh, well, yeah, those are fun :)
2024-10-22T23:17:08 < zyp> I love them
2024-10-22T23:17:24 < Ecco> Yeah, I did check them (or some similar ones) a while ago. They do look really cool, but a bit pricey
2024-10-22T23:17:33 < Ecco> Also, I feel like they really serve a different purpose:
2024-10-22T23:17:38 < Ecco> probing a production PCB
2024-10-22T23:17:42 < Ecco> which is good, don't get me wrong
2024-10-22T23:17:45 < zyp> not necessarily
2024-10-22T23:17:54 < zyp> I'd use them to probe testpoints as well
2024-10-22T23:18:08 < Ecco> Yeah, of course, they can also work with test points
2024-10-22T23:18:18 < Ecco> but for example I'm building a 4x larger debug PCB
2024-10-22T23:18:21 < Ecco> to test my schematics
2024-10-22T23:18:26 < Ecco> I want to measure power usage
2024-10-22T23:18:42 < zyp> what I'm hearing you asking for is a board with connectors for test signals
2024-10-22T23:18:42 < Ecco> I can afford some space for connectors
2024-10-22T23:18:50 < Ecco> well, it's a generic question really
2024-10-22T23:19:03 < Ecco> let's say an open-ended one
2024-10-22T23:19:05 < zyp> the issue with that is that how do you know what combination of signals you're gonna need to measure?
2024-10-22T23:19:16 < Ecco> yeah, you have a good point
2024-10-22T23:19:20 < Ecco> Sometimes you don't
2024-10-22T23:19:24 < Ecco> think of it like testpoints
2024-10-22T23:19:33 < Ecco> what TPs are you going to expose on your PCB?
2024-10-22T23:19:38 < Ecco> Maybe you know, maybe you don't
2024-10-22T23:19:43 < Ecco> but let's assume you did put some TP
2024-10-22T23:19:58 < Ecco> now I'm facing the issue where, even though I *planned* something to connect testing equiment
2024-10-22T23:20:02 < Ecco> my connection is flaky and unreliable
2024-10-22T23:20:38 < Ecco> Yeah, a PCB bite would work, but I feel like there's an easier solution for that specific scenario
2024-10-22T23:20:58 < zyp> at work, we like putting testpoints on at least anything we want to peek or pake in a production test jig
2024-10-22T23:21:11 < zyp> but that's a different scenario again
2024-10-22T23:21:13 < Ecco> yeah, that makes sense
2024-10-22T23:21:17 < Ecco> yeah, indeed
2024-10-22T23:21:21 < Ecco> I've done that too
2024-10-22T23:21:27 < Ecco> but test jigs have pogo-pins
2024-10-22T23:21:32 < Ecco> in an enclosure
2024-10-22T23:21:45 < BrainDamage> you can create a clamp jig for pogo pinss
2024-10-22T23:21:47 < Ecco> it's actually kind of similar to your pcb-bite scenario, except it's made for just one use
2024-10-22T23:21:51 < Ecco> yes indeed
2024-10-22T23:21:51 < zyp> I'm familiar with test jigs, I built one yesterday :)
2024-10-22T23:22:02 < Ecco> cool :)
2024-10-22T23:22:24 < Ecco> But I'm taking about another scenario really. Like I don't care about the cost-per-board for example
2024-10-22T23:22:33 < Ecco> nor do I really care about PCB real estate
2024-10-22T23:22:44 < Ecco> I guess I just don't want to go all the way up to a 2mm banana plug
2024-10-22T23:22:44 < zyp> yeah, so bring the signals out on connectors convenient for whatever you want to hook them up to
2024-10-22T23:22:46 < Ecco> b/c/ those are huge
2024-10-22T23:22:54 < Ecco> yeah, indeed
2024-10-22T23:23:20 < Ecco> so I guess my question is : what connectors are convenient to hook a scope and/or a DMM?
2024-10-22T23:24:03 < zyp> I came up with this a while ago: https://github.com/zyp/fmod/ and I'm going to make some adapters for that to the logic pod of my scope so I can plug it right in
2024-10-22T23:24:57 < zyp> I'm gonna make the adapter with two connectors in parallel so I can both use it in passthrough mode to tap signals on a cable or with a single cable from a board just to pick up signals
2024-10-22T23:25:34 < zyp> the latter is especially effective in FPGA projects where I can just mirror interesting signals on an extra IO port
2024-10-22T23:27:21 < Ecco> Yeah, that makes sense
2024-10-22T23:27:23 < zyp> other than that, just plain old 2.54mm pitch headers are fine
2024-10-22T23:27:34 < Ecco> yeah, they're find indeed
2024-10-22T23:27:38 < zyp> like the old stm32f4 waveshare board I've got
2024-10-22T23:27:40 < Ecco> but how would you hook a DMM to them for example?
2024-10-22T23:27:53 < Ecco> or a scope (assuming your signal is slow and you don't mind a little distortion)
2024-10-22T23:28:16 < zyp> DMM? use a female header connector to banana test lead
2024-10-22T23:28:23 < Ecco> those are a thing?
2024-10-22T23:28:25 < zyp> scope? probably the hook on the probe
2024-10-22T23:28:29 < zyp> yeah, I've got a bunch
2024-10-22T23:28:32 < Ecco> ha
2024-10-22T23:28:46 < zyp> some even came with my sensepeek probes :)
2024-10-22T23:29:54 < Ecco> Indeed: https://cdn.abicart.com/shop/ws40/74640/art40/h3362/154973362-origpic-2528cb.jpg
2024-10-22T23:30:06 < Ecco> Ok, that's exactly what I was looking for :)
2024-10-22T23:30:10 < Ecco> I *do* feel a little dumb :-D
2024-10-22T23:30:12 < Ecco> But thanks :)
2024-10-22T23:30:23 < Ecco> ok, for the scope
2024-10-22T23:30:32 < Ecco> why not something similar?
2024-10-22T23:30:42 < Ecco> I mean, the hook on the probe is okay-ish
2024-10-22T23:30:53 < Ecco> mine comes with an alligator ground thing
2024-10-22T23:31:00 < Ecco> which, well, works, but is a bit annoying
2024-10-22T23:31:12 < Ecco> are there BNC-to-dual-female header connector cables?
2024-10-22T23:31:16 < zyp> because my probes came with hooks, but they didn't come with anything resembling a female header adapter :)
2024-10-22T23:31:23 < Ecco> ok :-D
2024-10-22T23:31:34 < zyp> and the hooks works well enough I don't bother getting something else
2024-10-22T23:31:40 < Ecco> Makes sense
2024-10-22T23:32:03 < zyp> scope probes are more than just «bnc to whatever»
2024-10-22T23:33:12 < zyp> I mean, there's some magic and a tuning network to get it to work at 1M impedance
2024-10-22T23:33:44 < zyp> remember the little trimming screw that you have to adjust to get your square wave to be square
2024-10-22T23:33:53 < Ecco> yes indeed
2024-10-22T23:35:28 < zyp> highend scopes have a 50ohm input mode too, which requires less magic, but has other implications
2024-10-22T23:35:42 < Ecco> hmm, I understand
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2024-10-23T13:51:07 < karlp1> fixed my non-linear resistor.  need to properly calculate 1/(1/r1 + 1/rx) when you're working with R values.
2024-10-23T13:51:16 < karlp1> PWM mode is jsut 0..100% "impact"
2024-10-23T14:04:04 < qyx> I am very interested in this "pwm resistor" thing
2024-10-23T14:04:15 < qyx> hopefully the thing is not patented
2024-10-23T14:04:34 < qyx> how fast do you pwm it?
2024-10-23T14:05:20 < qyx> do I understand it right you are just switching two resistors, eg. 100k and 150k with a mux to simulate 100-150k?
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2024-10-23T14:06:13 < qyx> this would indeed work with dual-polarity and AC AFE if done properly and not aliasing
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2024-10-23T14:18:58 < karlp1> it's just this: https://tinyurl.com/276mn78b
2024-10-23T14:19:43 < karlp1> in PWM mode I also actually drop the right hand 220k to keep the two sides balanced.
2024-10-23T14:20:43 < karlp1> PWM is noisier, and it _seems_ to drift more, but that's going to be CPU dependent, I've just got an esp32-s3 module right now, no freq control at all.
2024-10-23T14:21:02 < karlp1> pwm at 5khz, AFE is only sampling at 500hz, "works good"
2024-10-23T14:21:27 < karlp1> the PWm disgusts me, because you can _clearly_ see the PWm noise on the scope
2024-10-23T14:21:54 < karlp1> but the calculations are much much simpler than cascading paralleled resistors and two x 128 step digipots :)
2024-10-23T14:23:29 < karlp1> I'm 99% sure I can "just calculate more" and get the 2x didipots  to be ~linear as well. but, ...
2024-10-23T14:24:10 < karlp1> to make it more useful now, i really need to get the usb network interface to work, and that's more integ with mcropy/esp-idf , or doing it all in C, which might be ok really, if I hook a webpage up to it.
2024-10-23T14:25:33 < karlp1> compared to yesterday, i've fixed my linearity of "requested" but you can clearly see the impact of (at present) only having correction for the first "coarse" digipot: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/hl7en.png
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2024-10-23T17:31:50 < qyx> karlp: can't you use the first half of the pwm range to get rid of the error near FS?
2024-10-23T17:32:25 < qyx> but looks sufficie tly good
2024-10-23T17:32:44 < karlp> yeah, totally, that's what I'd do, just avoid the pwm range edges.
2024-10-23T17:33:02 < qyx> do you really need that for testing? discrete steps not enough?
2024-10-23T17:33:16 < qyx> or is there a requirement of being universal
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2024-10-23T17:59:39 < karlp> discrete steps _would_ be enough and _will_ be enough
2024-10-23T17:59:47 < karlp> but I was seeing how fine and repeatable I could get it.
2024-10-23T18:00:13 < karlp> the cascaded digipots, after doing far too much maths, don't have enough overlapp to truly work as neeatly as the pwm.
2024-10-23T18:01:07 < karlp> could probably be fixed by tweaking the sizes of the resistors, but at least as it is now, there's disjoint between coarse step N, fine min->max, and then a gap before coarse step n+1.
2024-10-23T18:01:12 < karlp> at least in certain ranges.
2024-10-23T18:01:23 < karlp> all this stupid 1/r parallel resistor shit fucks it all up :)
2024-10-23T18:16:25 < zyp> karlp, your miniblink stuff also builds well with erect: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/Q0lfU
2024-10-23T18:17:27 < zyp> for the targets that are supported by laks main, at least, still need to merge your wch changes
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2024-10-23T18:33:20 < karlp> meh, last I tried wch stuff I ran into the hell hole of their incomaptible forward and backward openocd forks, and three different "open source" debugger dongles.
2024-10-23T18:33:28 < karlp> not really excited about going back there anytime soon :)
2024-10-23T18:34:13 < zyp> so what, I should just leave the wch stuff along with the kinetis stuff and proceed without?
2024-10-23T18:34:43  * karlp shrugs
2024-10-23T18:34:49 < karlp> the wch stuff works
2024-10-23T18:34:53 < karlp> the kinetis stuff was all hacks.
2024-10-23T18:35:00 < karlp> I just don't know when I'll be back on anything wch related.
2024-10-23T18:36:00 < zyp> the thing is that the module stuff is a big refactor, so you can't just go and simply rebase the commits in the future
2024-10-23T18:36:21 < karlp> I certainly won't complain if you merge it for me, 
2024-10-23T18:36:28 < zyp> so either it goes in before the refactor, or the changes themselves needs to be refactored before they can be merged
2024-10-23T18:36:38 < karlp> if I have to redo it all again later, it might not happen. 
2024-10-23T18:36:41 < karlp> no promises right now.
2024-10-23T18:37:57 < zyp> I figure adding platforms/peripherals doesn't affect other platforms/peripheral, so there's not really much downside of merging/having it
2024-10-23T18:38:27 < zyp> apart from stuff touching common stuff
2024-10-23T18:39:04 < zyp> one could argue it adds to the maintenance burden, but laks maintenance is best effort anyway :)
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2024-10-23T19:34:09 < BrainDamage> zyp: you might want to rename fmod because it's also the name of a somewhat famous audio library
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2024-10-23T19:36:40 < jpa-> maybe they should rename it because it is the name of a standard floating point function :)
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2024-10-23T19:37:51 < qyx> considering using this little guy to control a somewhat delicate mosfet controlling a 1 kW heater https://www.ti.com/product/TPS3431
2024-10-23T19:38:28 < qyx> to create an artifical sense of a more safe operation in the case of MCU fail
2024-10-23T19:38:58 < qyx> or reset, boot fail, wrong GPIO config, whatever
2024-10-23T19:43:46 < qyx> then a passive NTC circuit to disconnect gate drivers when > 90°C
2024-10-23T19:44:33 < qyx> and a mosfet power switch operated with a mechanical thermostat at 90°C to disconnect power (in the case the output stage power mosfets fail short)
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2024-10-23T19:45:49 < jpa-> wouldn't you want a thermal fuse instead of a thermostat at that poin
2024-10-23T19:45:51 < jpa-> *point
2024-10-23T19:46:19 < jpa-> otherwise the user who is happy with 90°C will keep using it until the thermostat also fails short
2024-10-23T19:46:19 < qyx> hm
2024-10-23T19:46:33 < qyx> yeah it should probably be latching
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2024-10-23T21:02:47 < zyp> BrainDamage, I'm aware, I used it a couple of decades ago, I don't think anybody is going to confuse it :)
2024-10-23T21:10:38 < fenugrec> qyx , a 555 could probably do both wathdog and NTC threshold comparison with a bit of cleverness. lmc555 for modern Iq and Vcc specs
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2024-10-23T22:20:33 < Laurenceb_> suppppp
2024-10-23T22:20:42  * Laurenceb_ is trying to use a tarduino nano
2024-10-23T22:20:50 < Laurenceb_> truly epic fail, adc is misbehaving
2024-10-23T22:20:59 < zyp> ok
2024-10-23T22:27:24 < qyx> ok
2024-10-23T22:35:10 < Laurenceb_> looks like at 1MHz clock it sometimes gives burst of conversions that are too small by ~6%
2024-10-23T22:36:21 < Laurenceb_> https://pastie.io/mgooju.cs
2024-10-23T22:37:04 < zyp> maybe you don't have enough space between your conversions
2024-10-23T22:37:05 < Laurenceb_> Ref pin seems to be at 5V (VCC), maybe it needs >22nF cap on there
2024-10-23T22:37:11 < zyp> just like in your code
2024-10-23T22:37:11 < Laurenceb_> very funny...
2024-10-23T22:38:07 < Laurenceb_> I was looking at some avr adc test results and it looks like at high clock the adc has issues towards top of scale
2024-10-23T22:38:33 < Laurenceb_> https://gammon.com.au/adc
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2024-10-23T23:07:45 < qyx> lolzyp
2024-10-23T23:08:01 < qyx> lold irl
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2024-10-24T01:00:45 < karlp> fuckin, lolrence still thinkgs spaces cost money or something?
2024-10-24T01:00:47 < karlp> ffs.
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2024-10-24T01:58:58 < ventYl> :D
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2024-10-24T03:09:06 < nomorekaki> PaulFertser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFW0sYSo7ZM bitbanging usb controller swd with kernelIO to alternate firmware and gain persistence
2024-10-24T03:10:37 < nomorekaki> hecking comfusers are full of interconnected jtag
2024-10-24T03:11:41 < nomorekaki> and yeas usb controller has access to the SWD signals of SOC
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2024-10-24T13:12:00 < karlp> qyx: ok, it's jsut in my head.  the digipot drifted 20g overnight too, just like the pwm version.
2024-10-24T13:12:25 < karlp> and even after all my maths I still don't have digipots as flat response as pwm.
2024-10-24T13:12:54 < karlp> and I'm only using the range ~9000...32000, and the pwm is actaully only 14bit anyway.
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2024-10-24T14:38:34 < karlp> TIL about usb phys for FS...
2024-10-24T14:38:47 < karlp> tusb1106, 
2024-10-24T14:39:17 < karlp> if people put one of them on an esp32-s3 board, instead of a fucking cp2102, you could have two usb ports, and have a full proper _user_ usb port _and_ usb serial+jtag for debug.
2024-10-24T14:39:34 < karlp> but obviously, a ch340 is cheaper than that tusb1106 specialized legacy shit
2024-10-24T14:41:33 < zyp> because they have a second port with a fs phy interface?
2024-10-24T14:45:15 < karlp> yeah, the internal OTG and the internal "jtag+serial" are two separate periphs, with their own muxes to the single onboard phy
2024-10-24T14:45:24 < zyp> weird
2024-10-24T14:45:26 < karlp> they document that with an external phy, you can have both active: https://docs.espressif.com/projects/esp-iot-solution/en/latest/usb/usb_overview/usb_phy.html
2024-10-24T14:45:40 < zyp> and yeah, I think I've seen this shit before
2024-10-24T14:45:58 < karlp> but I've never seen it done, despite that being pretty rad, jtag+"apptrace"+serial debug with no thinking just a usb cable, and then a full user usb port
2024-10-24T14:46:03 < karlp> but no.... no-one does it.
2024-10-24T14:46:33 < karlp> the espressif listed phy is non-stocked in china, let alone the west, 
2024-10-24T14:46:41 < karlp> western parts are the same price as the esp32 it self :)
2024-10-24T14:48:07 < karlp> The SP530␘ is a half-duplex Universal
2024-10-24T14:48:09 < karlp> Serial Bus (USB) differential transceiver
2024-10-24T14:48:11 < karlp> that interfaces with the VHDL Serial
2024-10-24T14:48:13 < karlp> Interface Engine (SIE) from the USB
2024-10-24T14:48:15 < karlp> developer's conference
2024-10-24T14:48:17 < karlp> no wonder this is "legacy" shit
2024-10-24T14:48:51 < zyp> it's dumb shit because it's completely pointless
2024-10-24T14:49:09 < zyp> it's just a few IO buffers and does nothing of the hard work, unlike a HS PHY
2024-10-24T14:52:25 -!- artok [~azo@88-112-154-28.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: alpine update]
2024-10-24T14:53:04 < karlp> yeah, seems to  be purely related to turning the occasionaly j/k half ended shit into single ended.
2024-10-24T14:53:14 < karlp> lcsc will offer me phys cheap from rochester :)
2024-10-24T14:53:20 < karlp> but I have my doubts it's actually that cheap.
2024-10-24T14:54:07 < karlp> enough distractions. lunch then actual work I guess.
2024-10-24T14:55:06 -!- artok [~azo@88-112-154-28.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined ##stm32
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2024-10-24T14:58:22 < Notsmartenough> hi guys, I think I am retarted or just having a bad day. I'm trying to use an STM32G4x3 chip (LQFP preferably)
2024-10-24T14:58:34 < zyp> ok
2024-10-24T14:58:51 < Notsmartenough> I need to use all 6 opamps, and I want each opamp to share a pin with the comparitor
2024-10-24T14:59:12 < Notsmartenough> (OPAMPX_VINP and COMPX_INP)
2024-10-24T15:00:18 < Notsmartenough> I need 3 of the opamps to have VINP, VOUT, INM0 and INM1 connected to external pins
2024-10-24T15:01:15 < Notsmartenough> I need three of the opamps to be internally connected with the INP and INM0 connected to external pins
2024-10-24T15:01:32 < Notsmartenough> how do I figure out the pin mapping?
2024-10-24T15:01:48 < zyp> are you sure this is even possible? :)
2024-10-24T15:02:03 < Notsmartenough> It would have to be wouldn't it?
2024-10-24T15:02:17 < zyp> for what?
2024-10-24T15:02:44 < Notsmartenough> okay, forget about the VINM pins, just how do I figure out which Comps share the OPAMP pins to allow use of all the opamps?
2024-10-24T15:03:09 < zyp> look at the datasheet?
2024-10-24T15:03:15 < Notsmartenough> rofl
2024-10-24T15:03:28 < Notsmartenough> So it should only take a second, right?
2024-10-24T15:03:46 < Notsmartenough> I've been at this for hours
2024-10-24T15:04:06 < zyp> in particular, look at the «additional functions» table in the pin definition table
2024-10-24T15:04:14 < Notsmartenough> okay, great
2024-10-24T15:04:51 < Notsmartenough> so, I just pick the comp#_inp with the matching opamp#_vinp ?
2024-10-24T15:04:56 < Notsmartenough> doesn't work
2024-10-24T15:04:59 < zyp> if I were working out this, I'd probably print the entire table and mark the stuff I'm interested in with a highlighter
2024-10-24T15:05:21 < Notsmartenough> I used google sheets, not a highlighter
2024-10-24T15:05:43 < zyp> guess that makes me old
2024-10-24T15:05:48 < Notsmartenough> At this point I'm thinking I give up, and just write a brute force solver in python
2024-10-24T15:06:24 < Notsmartenough> how do you normally figure out which STM32 periferals are useable with outher ones?
2024-10-24T15:07:30 < zyp> for digital stuff, I print the alternate functions table and attack that with a highlighter
2024-10-24T15:07:45 < Notsmartenough> there is no tool or script avalable?
2024-10-24T15:07:56 < Notsmartenough> I had a quick look, but couldn't find anything
2024-10-24T15:07:59 < zyp> sure is, there's the cubemx stuff
2024-10-24T15:08:05 < zyp> but I don't like it
2024-10-24T15:08:15 < Notsmartenough> Cubemx only works for simple stuff
2024-10-24T15:08:19 < zyp> exactly
2024-10-24T15:08:41 < Notsmartenough> so brute forcing it then :(
2024-10-24T15:09:12 < Notsmartenough> is there somewhere convenient I can get the AF data?
2024-10-24T15:09:58 < zyp> as in more convenient than copypasting from the datasheet pdf? not that I know
2024-10-24T15:10:11 < Notsmartenough> thanks
2024-10-24T15:10:32 < zyp> maybe you could dig out something from cubemx, I'm not sure how that information is stored
2024-10-24T15:10:42 < Notsmartenough> sqlite database
2024-10-24T15:11:04 -!- rob_w [~bob@host-82-135-31-73.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2024-10-24T15:11:10 < Notsmartenough> (just looked then)
2024-10-24T15:12:32 < Notsmartenough> Just knowing I'm not retarded is helpful
2024-10-24T15:13:41 < qyx> which stm32 exactly?
2024-10-24T15:13:49 < Notsmartenough> G7x3
2024-10-24T15:13:55 < qyx> thats not exactly.
2024-10-24T15:14:07 < qyx> g7?
2024-10-24T15:14:19 < Notsmartenough> STM32G473QBTx
2024-10-24T15:14:27 < Notsmartenough> *sorry, typo
2024-10-24T15:14:52 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/3ezrP.jpg <- here's one of my attempts to puzzle out the best pin usage
2024-10-24T15:15:21 < Notsmartenough> lol, so I'm not the only one?
2024-10-24T15:16:02 < zyp> didn't you think my paper and highlighter suggestion was serious? :)
2024-10-24T15:16:05 < qyx> what's wrong with the cubemx pin mapper?
2024-10-24T15:16:12 < qyx> did you try it?
2024-10-24T15:16:18 -!- Notsmartenough [~Notsmarte@203.59.219.47] has quit [Quit: Client closed]
2024-10-24T15:16:59 < qyx> he is being a bit noncooperative and rude
2024-10-24T15:17:04 < zyp> I've tried it, I found it more annoying to deal with than solving it by hand
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2024-10-24T15:17:32 < Notsmartenough> I need to use all 6 opamps, and I want each opamp to share the VINP pin with the comparator, I need 3 of the opamps to have VINP, VOUT, INM0 and INM1 connected to external pins, and  three of the opamps to be internally connected with the INP and INM0 connected to external pins
2024-10-24T15:17:32 < qyx> I got used to it, now it is about 5x faster than paper-solving
2024-10-24T15:17:55 < Notsmartenough> it doesn't work for anything but the simplest tasks
2024-10-24T15:18:19 < qyx> that's not what you should expect from it
2024-10-24T15:18:36 < qyx> treat it as a tool capable of keeping track of what is connected where
2024-10-24T15:18:44 < qyx> then you need the reference manual
2024-10-24T15:18:51 < Notsmartenough> Its supposed to be able to do it though
2024-10-24T15:18:56 < qyx> to consult the interconnection matrices
2024-10-24T15:19:10 < qyx> there are many
2024-10-24T15:19:22 < qyx> ehat you want may or may not be even possible yo do
2024-10-24T15:19:33 < Notsmartenough> just turn on each peripheral as you need it, and it's supposed to move other peripherals out of the way
2024-10-24T15:19:44 < zyp> qyx, «what is connected where» is the solution, not the problem
2024-10-24T15:20:29 < qyx> it is a pin mapper with some logic
2024-10-24T15:20:38 < qyx> any more logic is in the refman and your head
2024-10-24T15:20:49 < Notsmartenough> I worked out how to do the the COMP and OPAMP part, when cubemx couldn't, but it is very, very labor intensive, and then the part was too small for the rest
2024-10-24T15:21:05 < Notsmartenough> qyx, so this is a feature, not  a bug?
2024-10-24T15:21:07 < Notsmartenough> :S
2024-10-24T15:21:26 < zyp> qyx, datasheet, not refman
2024-10-24T15:21:39 < zyp> and if you have to consult the datasheet, how exactly is this faster than paper?
2024-10-24T15:21:40 < qyx> connection matrices are not in the datasheet
2024-10-24T15:21:46 < qyx> they are in the refman
2024-10-24T15:22:02 < Notsmartenough> but connection matricies are only in the data sheet?
2024-10-24T15:22:15 < qyx> they dictate what opamp%comp can be connected to what adc channels, timers, exti, etc.
2024-10-24T15:22:23 < Notsmartenough> the refman doesnt have pin connections?
2024-10-24T15:22:24 < zyp> ah, those
2024-10-24T15:22:25 < qyx> this is the higher logic which needs to be observed too
2024-10-24T15:22:29 < zyp> true
2024-10-24T15:22:43 < Notsmartenough> one problem at a time lol
2024-10-24T15:22:52 < qyx> datasheet lists purely he gpio mapping
2024-10-24T15:23:04 < Notsmartenough> DMA is gonna kill me too, i know that already
2024-10-24T15:23:26 < zyp> this talk reminds me I need to check stspin32g4, if the pins driving the gate drivers have other timer options than TIM1
2024-10-24T15:23:52 < Notsmartenough> Started this project with the stspin32g4
2024-10-24T15:24:15 < zyp> I proposed it for a project where instead of driving three halfbridges, it'll be driving a H-bridge and an independent halfbridge, and they should probably be at different frequencies
2024-10-24T15:24:57 < Notsmartenough> I wonder how the VBOOT subsys will handle different frequencies?
2024-10-24T15:25:23 < zyp> they're independent per gate driver
2024-10-24T15:25:47 < zyp> and we might use external bootstrap supplies anyway to allow 100% pwm
2024-10-24T15:26:21 < zyp> nope, only TIM1
2024-10-24T15:27:52 < Notsmartenough> what pins are the timers on?
2024-10-24T15:28:05 < zyp> PE8-13
2024-10-24T15:30:18 < Notsmartenough> bit bang?
2024-10-24T15:30:39 < zyp> I'd rather not :)
2024-10-24T15:31:09 < qyx> in the advanced mcu land, we don't bitbang things
2024-10-24T15:31:24 < zyp> although, I could probably switch the PWM frequency depending on operation mode
2024-10-24T15:32:06 < Notsmartenough> rofl, IN STM32 world, I bitbang I2c all the time, because the I2C peripheral is never on available pins
2024-10-24T15:32:28 < zyp> people want to do a brushed motor driver with a boost stage
2024-10-24T15:33:03 < Notsmartenough> you won't need different PWM freqs for that?
2024-10-24T15:33:24 < Notsmartenough> not if you have a external VM supply
2024-10-24T15:33:28 < Notsmartenough> gtg
2024-10-24T15:33:31 < Notsmartenough> bbl
2024-10-24T15:33:37 < zyp> if figure the boost stage probably needs to run at a higher frequency than the motor
2024-10-24T15:34:07 < zyp> hence higher pwm frequency on the channel driving the boost halfbridge than the two channels driving the motor H-bridge
2024-10-24T15:34:47 < zyp> but I'm not sure we have to do both at the same time
2024-10-24T15:34:49 < qyx> is the reason for boost.. reasonable?
2024-10-24T15:35:20 < qyx> like long wires from the driver to the motor, hence the motor has lower kV and you are using a higher voltage, or..
2024-10-24T15:36:19 < zyp> being able to feed the motor 48V, from a nominal 24V input, even if it sags to 18V or something
2024-10-24T15:36:49 < zyp> I don't know, I weren't involved in the planning of this project
2024-10-24T15:38:14 < zyp> the thing is that this project has been in progress for a couple of years now, we're doing the control firmware and originally somebody else were doing the power electronics
2024-10-24T15:38:41 < zyp> and they fucked it up and never got it to work, so it got handed off to another company
2024-10-24T15:39:43 < zyp> and AIUI they've now made something that somewhat works, but is too inefficient, so the drive electronics is dissipating too much power
2024-10-24T15:40:24 < zyp> they suggested a bigger heatsink, but there's no room in the enclosure for that…
2024-10-24T15:42:04 < zyp> so we've talked about redoing it ourselves, and I got asked if I knew any compact mcu + gate driver solutions, and suggested stspin32g4
2024-10-24T15:45:27 < zyp> anyway
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2024-10-24T16:45:47 < Notsmartenough> what voltage is your motor?
2024-10-24T16:46:20 < Notsmartenough> how many KW?
2024-10-24T17:19:20 < Ecco> Dumb question time: why does virtually every RTC use a 32kHz crystal? I'm not asking about the power-of-two thing, but about specifically 32k. Why not 16kHz or 64kHz for instance? Or why not even 1Hz actually? What makes 32kHz so great?
2024-10-24T17:21:57 -!- PlasmaHH [~PlasmaHH@user/plasmahh] has joined ##stm32
2024-10-24T17:23:04 < artok> 2^15 = 32768, easy binary counter
2024-10-24T17:23:05 < PlasmaHH> Hi, anyone knows a good way to provoke a hardfault on an stm32u5a5 where scb.bfsr.impreciserr is set?
2024-10-24T17:27:22 < Notsmartenough> Ecco, the crystals are actuall 32.768 khz, which is slow enough to use a very small amount of power to resonate
2024-10-24T17:27:51 < qyx> I think the question is about "why aren't they 16384 Hz?"
2024-10-24T17:28:37 < Notsmartenough> any slower and the crystals get huge, a "normal"32K crystal is about 12mm long I think?
2024-10-24T17:28:56 < PlasmaHH> these days they use mems for that, teeny tiny
2024-10-24T17:29:04 < Notsmartenough> double resonant crystals are half the length, but very difficult to manafacture
2024-10-24T17:30:02 < Notsmartenough> nowdays we use mems, or other methods of generating the clock, but 32K is as good as any at that point
2024-10-24T17:30:32 < Notsmartenough> in summary, lower freq = bigger crystal, higher freq = more power
2024-10-24T17:32:41 < karlp> PlasmaHH: you're also seeing network effects.  with 32k being common, you get more of them, which leads to more. even if other freqs might be "equally valid" for rtc usage.
2024-10-24T17:33:46 < PlasmaHH> karlp: could have been that way 30 years ago already... these little 32k cans seemed to be everywhere in cheap devices
2024-10-24T17:34:39 < karlp> correct.
2024-10-24T17:35:00 < karlp> there was no meaningful _advantage_ of 16k or 64k, and 32k already existed, so..... 32k it is.
2024-10-24T17:35:46 < PlasmaHH> its also a natural size for short signeds, maybe that was a factor for someone back then too
2024-10-24T17:36:15 < karlp> you're giving 16bit integers a very old lifetime....
2024-10-24T17:36:42 < PlasmaHH> I am pretty sure I seen a lot of them in the 80s ;)
2024-10-24T17:39:19 < Ecco> ok, awesome, thanks guys
2024-10-24T17:39:59 < Ecco> I assumed there was some pros/cons to higher/lower freqs and that 32kHz was a good compromise, but I wasn't sure whichkind of a compromise and that 32kHz was a good
2024-10-24T17:40:06 < Ecco> oops, typed too fast
2024-10-24T17:40:14 < Ecco> Meant to stop after "which"
2024-10-24T17:49:15 < karlp> Ecco: what you _can_ do is go to mouser/digikey/etal, and pick a package like 3225 and see what the cheapest speeds are.
2024-10-24T17:49:27 < karlp> then go to a smaller package, like 2016 and see the same thing.
2024-10-24T17:49:48 < karlp> (you'll see that 8/12MHz are cheapest in the bigger package, but 24/25/50 are cheaper in the smaller package)
2024-10-24T17:49:57 < karlp> that's the physical effects
2024-10-24T17:51:38 < Ecco> hmm, interesting!
2024-10-24T18:08:20 < ventYl> 
2024-10-24T18:11:17 < ventYl> PlasmaHH: regarding that impreciserr, that probably does down to the instruction level. I'd say that start by provoking precise bus error somewhere outside of peripheral area
2024-10-24T18:11:28 < ventYl> like reading/writing outside of RAM area
2024-10-24T18:12:07 < ventYl> then try to enable caching of that memory area and write longer pipelined piece of code where memory access is followed by some other instructions mostly only manipulating registers
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2024-10-24T19:12:27 < zyp> yeah, impreciserr is typically when the cpu issues a buffered write and goes on to execute more stuff before an error response comes back
2024-10-24T19:30:19 < ventYl> I like when Windows turns into slideshow just because I decided to compile 300 source files
2024-10-24T19:37:20 -!- Livio [~livio@user/livio] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
2024-10-24T19:45:02 < fenugrec> make -j300 ? madman
2024-10-24T19:53:55 < qyx> karlp: and 16 MHz?! you forgot 16 MHz we all use!
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2024-10-24T20:10:02 < PlasmaHH> ventYl: yeah I tried that already but looks like it did not really work, maybe it also depends on what comes after the write?
2024-10-24T20:12:22 < ventYl> PlasmaHH: here I would speculate but it is possible that Cortex-M7 and M33 is capable of instruction reordering. So instructions in the pipeline may get reordered and bus error triggered at some implicit memory barrier
2024-10-24T20:12:41 < ventYl> OR compiler did reordering for you
2024-10-24T20:14:37 < PlasmaHH> ventYl: doesnt look like the compiler did, but right after the writes there is a branch... its always the same, when I want to write normal code it crashes all the time, when I want to write specific crashes it doesnt work too ;)
2024-10-24T20:15:07 < ventYl> branch is a good candidate for a memory barrier
2024-10-24T20:23:14 < zyp> PlasmaHH, it matters whether the address you're trying to write is in a bufferable range or not
2024-10-24T20:24:10 < zyp> try hitting something between 0x20000000 and 0x40000000 where the normal memories are mapped, that range should be bufferable
2024-10-24T20:45:22 -!- martinmoene_ [~Martin@2a02-a45a-96ba-1-c448-29e2-b29f-3bb7.fixed6.kpn.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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2024-10-24T20:46:50 < jpa-> norway is planning to put age limit 18 on ##stm32
2024-10-24T20:46:54 < jpa-> *15
2024-10-24T20:47:00 < jpa-> should be 18 in my opinion
2024-10-24T20:57:04 -!- nerozero [~nerozero@87.253.63.54] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
2024-10-24T20:58:24 < antto> parental advisory
2024-10-24T20:58:27 -!- Linux_Kerio [~Linux_Ker@chello089173155197.chello.sk] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
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2024-10-24T21:05:42 < ventYl> fenugrec: nah, ninja usually does -j${NUM_CORES} on its own
2024-10-24T21:06:34 < ventYl> make is essentially unusable with visual C++
2024-10-24T21:11:31 < PlasmaHH> 15 years of experience...
2024-10-24T21:54:44 -!- Livio [~livio@user/livio] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
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2024-10-24T22:18:42 < zyp> karlp, I went over the wch branch now, I don't like the ifdef stuff in PFIC, and I'm a bit iffy on the riscv platform refactors too
2024-10-24T22:20:02 < zyp> I like the intention of the platform stuff -- there's a bunch of different riscv cpus that differ in some ways, but are each used in different chips
2024-10-24T22:20:36 < zyp> so I think what we want is another layer between mcu and riscv
2024-10-24T22:21:04 < karlp> totally understandable
2024-10-24T22:21:25 < karlp> I felt that the existing "riscv" was very specificly hardcoded to the gd32v, and I tried to bring in _something_ else.
2024-10-24T22:21:25 < zyp> where the latter does the common stuff like compiler handling, and the middle layer does cpu implementation specific stuff like specific interrupt controllers or whatever
2024-10-24T22:21:34 < karlp> not sure what the best path was, but it needed more than it had :)
2024-10-24T22:22:14 < karlp> I have a very long standing issue to try and get the different irq modes better tested and understood too, but it's gross.
2024-10-24T22:22:42 < zyp> I bet
2024-10-24T22:22:45 < karlp> mounriver has non-public gcc patches, https://github.com/hydrausb3/riscv-none-elf-gcc-xpack/commit/90893d7a13fec53252313294b12882a5f458c019
2024-10-24T22:22:58 < karlp> it's why I just went with "plain old vectored" for starters.
2024-10-24T22:23:05 < karlp> I was also learning some of that stuff in rv at the time.
2024-10-24T22:23:39 < karlp> I don't even remember some of teh rv hacks I chopped in, I just "tried my best" :)
2024-10-24T22:24:57 < karlp> heh, there's a delphi job ad
2024-10-24T22:25:35 < zyp> I think maybe I'll put off merging the wch stuff after all, if none of us are going to be using it anytime soon anyway
2024-10-24T22:27:18 < karlp> might as well.
2024-10-24T22:27:37 < karlp> IMO the actual periph code shouldn't be challenging to port to your new module style really.
2024-10-24T22:27:46 < karlp> if/when...
2024-10-24T22:28:15 < zyp> somewhere on my roadmap is doing something with some fpga soft-cpus, so I'll probably do something about riscv platform structure then
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2024-10-24T22:55:25 < qyx> I am designig a power input, it is a weird one
2024-10-24T22:56:42 < qyx> to keep my device class III, I can't have any harmful voltage nearby,so I am allowing powering the device with low voltage only
2024-10-24T22:57:04 < qyx> so an external selv psu is needed
2024-10-24T22:57:17 < qyx> and now, the tricky part
2024-10-24T22:57:35 < qyx> I need it to be a selv one, not a pelv one
2024-10-24T22:58:12 < qyx> so I want to measure impedance between both live conductors and PE to verify the circuit is not grounded
2024-10-24T22:59:04 < PlasmaHH> zyp: I must be missing something vital in my play project... I tried doing exactly the same as in our product firmware but still cant get it to be imprecise... granted the product is u585 instead of u5a5 but that shouldnt matter...
2024-10-24T22:59:52 < zyp> «exactly»
2024-10-24T23:00:06 < qyx> my idea so far is to have a set of pullup and pulldown resistors on the PE and measure its voltage
2024-10-24T23:01:09 < zyp> PlasmaHH, remember that code that's exactly identical might still not optimize the same when anything around it is different
2024-10-24T23:02:27 < PlasmaHH> zyp: well at least the assembly a couple of bytes around it is the same... so my guess is that all the other stuff like initilization etc. is not, which might be a bit more difficult to sync up
2024-10-24T23:03:37 < zyp> if it's timing sensitive, it could depend where in a cache line the instruction is, or stuff like that
2024-10-24T23:04:28 < PlasmaHH> I am suspecting more like how the chip is set up like with some cache settings or something like that
2024-10-24T23:05:02 < zyp> that too
2024-10-24T23:05:13 < zyp> by the way, what's your goal?
2024-10-24T23:05:22 < PlasmaHH> testcases for my debugger plugin
2024-10-24T23:06:17 < zyp> what sort of test architecture?
2024-10-24T23:06:30 < zyp> or infrastructure, for that matter
2024-10-24T23:08:22 < PlasmaHH> nothing fancy, its a gdb plugin and I just want to (more or less) automatically run a couple of commands from it on a real hardware, the u5a5 nucleo in this case.
2024-10-24T23:09:08 < PlasmaHH> now that I figured out what my problem with swo was the next step is writing me some tooling for hard faults and testing that...
2024-10-24T23:09:16 < zyp> have you considered writing actual unit tests with a mock gdb?
2024-10-24T23:10:57 < PlasmaHH> no, because the tests would just reflect my understanding of the hardware and obviously work, whereas using the real hardware should in theory reveal my misundertandings of the hardware... also a mock gdb is easier said than done ;)
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2024-10-24T23:37:58 < PlasmaHH> hm, maybe I should try and get my register set comparison persistecnce feature  up and running so I can compare both of them...
2024-10-24T23:38:26 < zyp> is your project published anywhere yet?
2024-10-24T23:39:18 < PlasmaHH> yeah though not all plugins I am working on yet ... https://github.com/PlasmaHH/vdb
2024-10-24T23:39:41 < PlasmaHH> and of course documentation is severely lacking ;)
2024-10-24T23:40:29 < zyp> hmm, instead of a mock gdb, maybe what you should have is a mock target :)
2024-10-24T23:41:23 < PlasmaHH> even easier :P
2024-10-24T23:41:39 < zyp> a simple gdbserver that lets you peek and poke emulated memory addrs isn't too hard
2024-10-24T23:42:16 < PlasmaHH> sure but how to make sure what it returns is reflecting real hardware?
2024-10-24T23:42:38 < zyp> that's not what unit tests are about :)
2024-10-24T23:46:47 < PlasmaHH> I like it when my tests test more than "works the same as last time" ;)
2024-10-24T23:48:43 < zyp> it's called «works the way it's specified to» :)
2024-10-24T23:50:43 < zyp> I mean, testing against hardware is useful too, but it brings complexity and fragility
2024-10-24T23:51:19 < zyp> testing what you can test without hardware means you can easily set it up as a CI task
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--- Day changed pe loka 25 2024
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2024-10-25T00:03:12 < PlasmaHH> well I work quite differently for private stuff than I do for corporate things... for my private stuff I spend the little time I have with things that are fun, and the order of getting it to work with something real and then writing testcases is defiinetly more fun ;)
2024-10-25T00:03:39 < zyp> haha, don't we all
2024-10-25T00:03:48 < zyp> that's a pretty cool toolbox btw
2024-10-25T00:04:41 < PlasmaHH> thanks. 90% was created to solve real problems... just dont look too much into the code, its kinda horrible...
2024-10-25T00:04:50 < PlasmaHH> time again, kids and stuff...
2024-10-25T00:07:26 < PlasmaHH> getting swo to work was super annoynig because I used the nucleo board and the user button to trigger a message to be sent...
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2024-10-25T01:34:04 < ventYl> PlasmaHH: nice stuff. I could probably have some use for it
2024-10-25T01:34:27 < PlasmaHH> ventYl: the user base is in the low single digits so far ;)
2024-10-25T01:35:05 < ventYl> if it is larger than 1 then it most probably beats mine
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2024-10-25T01:44:55 < PlasmaHH> 1+1/365 or so ;)
2024-10-25T01:45:48 < ventYl> why /365?
2024-10-25T01:48:05 < ventYl> ok, ultimate problem with any attempt to add security to something like cortex-m is that you still end up with environment where everyone can do everything
2024-10-25T01:48:48 < ventYl> and authorization will probably eat too much CPU
2024-10-25T01:49:33 < PlasmaHH> because once a year someone else uses it ^^
2024-10-25T01:50:03 < ventYl> ah, so
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2024-10-25T02:09:46 < zyp> ventYl, what's the problem you're attempting to solve?
2024-10-25T02:11:04 < ventYl> zyp: more-less philosophical question: why am I bothering with memory protection and microkernel, if every thread can at any time call shutdown()?
2024-10-25T02:11:24 < ventYl> or kill any other thread
2024-10-25T02:12:38 < zyp> the thing about «security» is that the term is meaningless on its own, you need to answer more questions like «securing what? against whom?»
2024-10-25T02:13:19 < ventYl> the ultimate goal is to confine potential attackers gaining RCE in stuff like BLE/USB drivers as much as possible
2024-10-25T02:14:00 < zyp> if you already have task separation and syscalls between them, adding capabilities doesn't sound prohibitive
2024-10-25T02:14:40 < ventYl> that's all in place already
2024-10-25T02:15:07 < zyp> as in, give every task a capability bitmap, every syscall handlers checks whether the current task has the required capability to run the call
2024-10-25T02:15:31 < ventYl> hm, the bitmap is a good idea.
2024-10-25T02:15:32 < zyp> then it's just a matter of ensuring tasks only get the capabilities they need
2024-10-25T02:16:13 < zyp> which they can either do by giving up capabilities they don't need, or by getting started with limited capabilities
2024-10-25T02:16:31 < ventYl> this could probably be applicable to RPC somehow too
2024-10-25T02:17:36 < ventYl> currently any thread can call any RPC object it can get pointer to
2024-10-25T02:17:58 < ventYl> and there is one nasty security hole
2024-10-25T02:18:22 < ventYl> how caller can gain RCE in callee context
2024-10-25T02:19:55 < zyp> well, you need to go through a syscall or similar to switch contexts
2024-10-25T02:20:07 < zyp> which would do MPU reconfig
2024-10-25T02:20:33 < ventYl> yeah, that's straightforward
2024-10-25T02:20:40 < zyp> just calling without context switching should be harmless, since the callee then lacks access to do any damage
2024-10-25T02:20:44 < ventYl> thread first needs to have capability to perform rpc_call()
2024-10-25T02:21:07 < zyp> yeah, and you can have capabilities on specific rpcs too
2024-10-25T02:21:09 < ventYl> the second question is which thread can call which rpc service
2024-10-25T02:21:31 < ventYl> kernel already checks if object called is actually a rpc service or a random pointer
2024-10-25T02:21:47 < ventYl> so you can't construct something that looks like a rpc service and call it
2024-10-25T02:21:51 < zyp> how?
2024-10-25T02:22:17 < ventYl> vtables for rpc services must be present in designated section
2024-10-25T02:22:25 < ventYl> if not, kernel will refuse the call
2024-10-25T02:22:35 < zyp> yeah, makes sense
2024-10-25T02:23:04 < ventYl> secondary use of this mechanism is to figure out which is the target process of the call, where to switch the context
2024-10-25T02:23:24 < ventYl> so every process has such section where all its vtables are grouped
2024-10-25T02:28:38 < ventYl> I can simply drop a ACL bitmap just after vtable pointer directly into rpc object
2024-10-25T02:50:37 < zyp> if the goal is runtime security, not compile time security, I guess you could also do something like this: https://godbolt.org/z/ehsG9K7j9
2024-10-25T02:51:56 < zyp> you can have the linker pick up anything matching .text._Z8with_cap* and put it into a dedicated section, and then the give_cap() syscall can check that $pc is within that section
2024-10-25T02:53:21 < zyp> that way you can give capabilities in the source, but an attacker can't do it without being able to write the flash
2024-10-25T02:53:28 < zyp> similar to your vtable security
2024-10-25T02:55:18 < ventYl> yes, but rpc service can be created at runtime
2024-10-25T02:55:37 < zyp> oh
2024-10-25T02:55:45 < ventYl> and the service object is opaque to the caller, so as long as the owning process does not mess with ACL, it is all safe
2024-10-25T02:56:02 < ventYl> and... if owning process can mess with it, it doesn't matter much where you store it
2024-10-25T02:57:34 < ventYl> the theory is that if you perform RPC call, only the callee code can run while context is switched into callee
2024-10-25T02:58:11 < ventYl> you can think of it as of thread being borrowed into callee process for the duration of a function call
2024-10-25T03:00:59 < zyp> speaking of security, I'm planning to try something making use of trustzone on h5 or similar at some point
2024-10-25T03:01:51 < zyp> utilizing security mechanisms for safety
2024-10-25T03:02:05 < ventYl> why TZ and not MPU?
2024-10-25T03:02:44 < zyp> better isolation
2024-10-25T03:03:26 < ventYl> MPU seems to be fairly usable
2024-10-25T03:03:53 < ventYl> the only limitation is the amount of regions in anything older than M7/M33
2024-10-25T03:04:59 < zyp> I want to be able to tunnel safety data (estop) over arbitrary transports, so I'm planning to make a system where sources are sending cryptographically signed keepalives, and receivers are receiving, checking and driving estop relays or whatever
2024-10-25T03:05:03 < ventYl> indeed the overall paradigm needed massive redesign
2024-10-25T03:05:58 < zyp> safety on the sending side is easy; simplest safe design is just killing power to the only chip that knows the signing key
2024-10-25T03:06:37 < zyp> on the receiving side, the only thing that needs to be safe is the signature verification, watchdog and output
2024-10-25T03:06:54 < zyp> so if I put that in trustzone I can isolate it from everything else, including interrupt handlers
2024-10-25T03:07:10 < ventYl> yeah that's legit
2024-10-25T03:07:24 < ventYl> interrupt handlers were an issue in this design too
2024-10-25T03:07:42 < ventYl> either I had to manage them or accept that some portion of the code will run with kernel privileges
2024-10-25T03:09:00 < zyp> the advantage of that isolation is that I can put whatever communication code I'd like on the MCU without affecting safety
2024-10-25T03:10:08 < ventYl> here even bulk of drivers is isolated as processes
2024-10-25T03:10:21 < ventYl> only interrupt handlers run with kernel privileges
2024-10-25T03:11:35 < ventYl> from RTOS point of view there's not much you can do to interact with the rest of world as ISR
2024-10-25T03:12:54 < zyp> yeah, I'm usually not concerned about that
2024-10-25T03:13:44 < zyp> one of these days I'm gonna write that magic I've been planning to let coroutine tasks get into ISR context and back out
2024-10-25T03:14:52 < zyp> like «co_await uart_isr; /* poke uart regs directly from ISR context */ co_await yield;»
2024-10-25T03:16:36 < ventYl> hm
2024-10-25T03:19:19 < zyp> it would be great for code like this: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/oJZdb
2024-10-25T03:20:50 < ventYl> here the combination of RPC calls and MMIO ranges solves the problem
2024-10-25T03:21:19 < ventYl> process is a <virtual machine> in the meaning of UNIX virtual machine
2024-10-25T03:21:37 < zyp> right now it's polling I2C2->ISR, if it could instead await interrupts, that'll get rid of the busywaiting without significantly changing the code structure
2024-10-25T03:21:55 < ventYl> and you can assign each process some MMIO regions where it gains access on top of its normal .data .bss and .stack (if process has any own threads)
2024-10-25T03:22:10 < ventYl> this effectively turns the process into a driver
2024-10-25T03:22:23 < zyp> yeah
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2024-10-25T03:22:38 < ventYl> RPC call then isolates all its users from the ability to fiddle with registers
2024-10-25T03:22:48 < ventYl> without giving the driver ability to mess with anything outside of its scope
2024-10-25T03:23:04 < ventYl> suprisingly, TinyUSB works inside such coffin
2024-10-25T03:23:30 < zyp> I don't see why it shouldn't :)
2024-10-25T03:24:07 < ventYl> HAL would give you a list of reasons
2024-10-25T03:24:43 < ventYl> also ST's own xUSB would probably either not work or isolation would be minimal as it runs almost exclusively inside ISRs
2024-10-25T03:24:52 < zyp> tinyusb being a generic stack, it can't be too tied into specific hardware, so it shouldn't really need much more than the memory mapped usb core
2024-10-25T03:25:45 < zyp> my usb stack would also work well, it's also lazy code not using ISRs at all
2024-10-25T03:25:53 < ventYl> it has some requirements on what RTOS offers
2024-10-25T03:26:05 < zyp> a lot of my code is polling/busywaiting actually
2024-10-25T03:26:22 < zyp> because it's too much hassle to do otherwise
2024-10-25T03:26:27 < ventYl> next thing I want to make running is nimBLE
2024-10-25T03:26:38 < ventYl> and possibly RP2040 VGA driver
2024-10-25T03:27:12 < zyp> with good coroutine/interrupt integration, I hope to change that
2024-10-25T03:27:33 < ventYl> yeah, I had to adopt wait_for_object() from WinNT
2024-10-25T03:27:38 < ventYl> otherwise synchronization was a mess
2024-10-25T03:29:24 < ventYl> you can almost emulate coroutines with it
2024-10-25T03:30:36 < ventYl> maybe it is worth of trying
2024-10-25T03:30:42 < ventYl> but now eof
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2024-10-25T13:48:47 < zyp> karlp, https://github.com/zyp/laks/tree/dev_modules
2024-10-25T13:53:44 < zyp> I think apart from the build system, it's mostly but not entirely drop-in compatible with current laks main
2024-10-25T13:54:58 < zyp> old headers had some indirect includes that compat headers lack, and that might break code
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2024-10-25T14:35:31 < karlp> so, "dev_v2" is now main, and "future" is now "dev_modules" ?
2024-10-25T14:36:14 < zyp> something like that
2024-10-25T14:37:33 < zyp> I hope dev_modules will live shorter before it's merged than dev_v2 did :)
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2024-10-25T14:38:49 < zyp> PlasmaHH, you wanted an IMPRECISERR? I've inadvertently made one…
2024-10-25T14:38:50 < zyp> (gdb) x/wx 0xe000ed28
2024-10-25T14:38:51 < zyp> 0xe000ed28:	0x00000400
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2024-10-25T14:53:21 < PlasmaHH> reg/M SCB.CFSR looks so much nicer as a command :P
2024-10-25T14:53:36 < PlasmaHH> what did you do? or you dont because its imprecise and you havent found the point yet?
2024-10-25T14:58:04  * PlasmaHH sprinkles a know into the last sentence
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2024-10-25T16:39:16 < zyp> PlasmaHH, flashing failed so flash had incomplete contents, so it ran into an area of 0xffffffff
2024-10-25T17:41:36 < PlasmaHH> zyp: interesting, wouldnt that be undefined instructions normally?
2024-10-25T17:44:23 < zyp> yeah, idk
2024-10-25T17:44:58 < zyp> maybe it picked up an invalid pointer on the way there
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2024-10-25T18:23:34 < karlp> qyx: this is what I'd do for v2: https://tinyurl.com/27aahzrr
2024-10-25T18:23:44 < karlp> less precision resistors needed, simpler sw.
2024-10-25T18:24:09 < karlp> my colleague insists that I need to use a better fet, but I can'tsee how 1mOhm vs 45mOhm is relevant when it's in series with the 33k.
2024-10-25T18:24:25 < karlp> he's concerned that the temp variance of the fet will be an actual problem, but I just don't see it.
2024-10-25T18:24:54 < karlp> anyway, it's the weekend time
2024-10-25T18:25:00 < fenugrec> is that your pwmd resistor thing
2024-10-25T18:25:09 < karlp> I've failed to do what I was meant to be doing successuflly, so let's just fuck off anyway
2024-10-25T18:25:11 < karlp> yeah.
2024-10-25T18:25:36 < fenugrec> karlp I'd go with the fet with less Cgd myself
2024-10-25T18:25:47 < fenugrec> on monday, that is
2024-10-25T18:25:53 < karlp> why, so you can switch it faster?
2024-10-25T18:26:06 < fenugrec> less charge injection, seems like your doing precision stuff
2024-10-25T18:26:20 < karlp> charge injection? 
2024-10-25T18:26:37 < karlp> honestly, this is me _refusing_ to do precision stuff and saying, "no, really, it doesn't really need to be"
2024-10-25T18:27:13 < karlp> the PWM noise would be a killer for anyone who really thought of this as precision
2024-10-25T18:27:32 < karlp> but with the other end only sampling at 500hz anyway, 5, or 10, or even 20k pwm is.... "flat"
2024-10-25T18:29:46 < fenugrec> well maybe not an issue in that application, not sure. If Vds can vary (I think it does ?) then I think you will have some nonlinearity due to gate capacitance
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2024-10-25T18:30:40 < fenugrec> it's a bit muddy in my mind, but I simulated something similar a while back
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2024-10-25T19:00:16 < qyx> karlp: search fet based on the leakage
2024-10-25T19:00:29 < qyx> temp. dependence is not important
2024-10-25T19:00:40 < qyx> but 45 mohm fet is really bad
2024-10-25T19:02:29 < qyx> wait what, your fet doesn't even turn on in the sim
2024-10-25T19:04:39 < qyx> oh I have to touch the slider!
2024-10-25T19:05:48 < qyx> as I said before, temperature dependency will be dominated by temp differences on the main bridge (4x330R)
2024-10-25T19:06:12 < qyx> those needs to be either low TCR or a perfectly matched array
2024-10-25T19:17:55 < jpa-> karlp: why not RC lowpass the fet gate voltage?
2024-10-25T19:18:46 < qyx> he want it to be linear
2024-10-25T19:19:02 < jpa-> ah
2024-10-25T19:19:40 < qyx> he could add a cap parallel to the paralleled bridge leg at maximum
2024-10-25T19:19:52 < qyx> that could work but the cap also leaks
2024-10-25T19:23:30 < jpa-> in one project i thought i would have the need for low-noise accurately tunable resistor; my plan was to put two NTCs and a heater under a common epoxy blob to share heat, and then have opamp drive the heater until the feedback NTC is at desired resistance
2024-10-25T19:23:41 < jpa-> didn't actually need it in the end though
2024-10-25T19:27:04 < qyx> heh
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2024-10-25T20:17:07 < qyx> someone was innovating a thing recently with a single-cell or capacitor charger ic
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2024-10-25T21:56:27 < jbo> hello
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2024-10-25T22:00:11 < qyx> ehlo
2024-10-25T22:00:33 < qyx> so a combination of a LM66200 and that great buck-boost I found a week ago should work
2024-10-25T22:00:40 < qyx> of course I forgot which one was that
2024-10-25T22:00:47 < qyx> TPS63900 most probably
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2024-10-25T22:20:26 < qyx> Steffanx: hjalp, will a NB2 ublox work in a NB1 network?
2024-10-25T22:21:01 < qyx> eyeballing SARA-N310
2024-10-25T22:21:29 < zyp> shouldn't it?
2024-10-25T22:23:12 < qyx> idk, my ai friend failed so asking real friends
2024-10-25T22:23:18 < qyx> I think it should
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2024-10-25T23:13:25 < Steffanx> I would say yes no expert in this though 😝
2024-10-25T23:16:35 < zyp> AIUI NB2 is a superset of NB1, so I figure you get NB2 features if both network and device supports it, NB1 otherwise
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2024-10-25T23:57:30 < zyp> karlp, cherry-picking stuff onto the refactored branch is actually not an issue, git is surprisingly good at it
2024-10-25T23:58:37 < zyp> I found I forgot to merge my own h7 ethernet stuff :)
--- Day changed la loka 26 2024
2024-10-26T00:06:46 < zyp> and with that in, my ethernet project also builds unmodified
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2024-10-26T01:32:39 < qyx> m ethernet, I want to try that gpl stack
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2024-10-26T01:33:22 < qyx> https://github.com/Oryx-Embedded/CycloneTCP
2024-10-26T01:38:17 < zyp> looks comprehensive
2024-10-26T01:39:34 < zyp> except I don't see any documentation apart from the marketing stuff
2024-10-26T01:41:04 < zyp> oh, here it is: https://www.oryx-embedded.com/doc/index.html
2024-10-26T01:41:47 < zyp> if you can call doxygen documentation
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2024-10-26T01:52:20 < zyp> hmm, I poked a bit at header modules (i.e. telling the compiler to turn an existing header into something importable)
2024-10-26T01:54:34 < zyp> seems easy enough in itself, but breaks the way I do dependency scanning
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2024-10-26T01:55:31 < zyp> on the other hand, it seems like it should work well with the other module dependency approach I want to try
2024-10-26T02:00:30 < qyx> Ilike it because it has ssh support
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2024-10-26T03:00:25 < nomorekaki> Iran being bombed?
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2024-10-26T03:19:29 < specing> Yep
2024-10-26T03:23:35 < nomorekaki> any idea of the extent?
2024-10-26T03:24:00 < nomorekaki> I guess .il has bombed some nuclear facilities before
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2024-10-26T04:28:55 < specing> no ideas yet
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2024-10-26T04:54:56 < specing> looks like iran's air defence only works nine to five
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2024-10-26T14:36:59 < Laurenceb_> supp
2024-10-26T14:37:17  * Laurenceb_ is failing at atmega
2024-10-26T14:37:45 < Laurenceb_> need to measure pwm with long period to high accuracy
2024-10-26T14:38:36 < Laurenceb_> dunno how to do this when timer1 period is 1ms or so as its used for pwm generation, its also symmetric pwm so I dont see how to find if its up or down counting
2024-10-26T14:43:43 < Laurenceb_> my current code - produces junk data https://pastie.io/lpghtx.cs
2024-10-26T14:45:12 < zyp> so you have an interrupt when it's at the bottom and once when it hits the PWM value? but none at the top?
2024-10-26T14:46:17 < Laurenceb_> yeah
2024-10-26T14:46:28 < Laurenceb_> this older version almost works https://pastie.io/pbmcng.cs
2024-10-26T14:46:50 < Laurenceb_> occasional glitches due to delta values being read whilst they are updated by the isr tho
2024-10-26T14:49:05 < Laurenceb_> hmm I may have spotted something - if there is a double edge then in old and new code its written to the array, but in old version it will be ignored by the read code, but in new version it might have last bit set and then be read
2024-10-26T14:49:46 < Laurenceb_> the last bit "even/odd" is used to try to compensate for fact that tacho output doesnt have perfect 50% duty cycle
2024-10-26T14:52:55 < Laurenceb_> ISR_NOBLOCK does not seem to be the source of the issue, or at least not the only source - removing it and issue remains
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2024-10-26T15:20:12 < Laurenceb_> https://pastie.io/tuyehe.cs
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2024-10-26T15:23:19 < Laurenceb_> lines 26,27 should be n not indx
2024-10-26T15:23:31 < Laurenceb_> annoyingly I dont have hardware to test.. hopefully this will fix it
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2024-10-26T20:49:04 < Steffanx> jbo
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2024-10-26T21:41:12 < qyx> sup
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2024-10-26T23:44:53 < Steffanx> The sky.
2024-10-26T23:45:49 < jbo> Steffanx
2024-10-26T23:46:05 < Steffanx> Welcome 
2024-10-26T23:46:09 < jbo> u2
2024-10-26T23:51:56 < Steffanx> How can I help you today?
--- Day changed su loka 27 2024
2024-10-27T00:06:34 < jbo> cuddle
2024-10-27T00:06:51 < jbo> let's coordinate with jpa- first tho
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2024-10-27T10:24:33 < Steffanx> No worries jbo, we all know he goes to bed early
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--- Day changed ma loka 28 2024
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2024-10-28T01:27:21 < nomorekaki> happy daylight savings
2024-10-28T01:47:52 < zyp> I noticed the clock was 2:45 or so last night and thought to myself «oh, it'll roll back to 2AM in 15 minutes, that sounds like a good time to go to bed»
2024-10-28T01:47:59 < zyp> 16 minutes later the clock was showing 3:01
2024-10-28T01:48:55 < zyp> … I missed the rollover and the fact that it was already 2:45 for the second time
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2024-10-28T13:21:41 < Laurenceb_> anyone here used ATOMIC_BLOCK on avr?
2024-10-28T13:21:44 < Laurenceb_>  error: '__ToDo' was not declared in this scope
2024-10-28T13:26:28 < Laurenceb_> doh I needed ATOMIC_BLOCK(ATOMIC_RESTORESTATE)
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2024-10-28T14:18:31 < mawk> first mistake is using avr
2024-10-28T14:20:10 < ventYl> why, oh why?
2024-10-28T14:20:32 < ventYl> what is so magic in ardweeino that no average HAL can't do?
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2024-10-28T16:44:54 < qyx> unrouted: 0
2024-10-28T16:44:56 < qyx> I like this game
2024-10-28T16:54:25 < jbo> avr was great
2024-10-28T16:54:30 < jbo> at least 15 years ago it was 
2024-10-28T16:55:13 < jbo> qyx, lowest score finisher?
2024-10-28T17:08:15 < qyx> I can't find any solder nuts on tme, is it even possible?
2024-10-28T17:08:24 < qyx> I would expect this kind of stuff there
2024-10-28T17:16:33 < qyx> https://www.mouser.sk/c/electromechanical/hardware/standoffs-spacers/?q=kfe-&thread%20size=M3
2024-10-28T17:16:37 < qyx> great, at least something
2024-10-28T17:17:06 < jbo> whenever I am in need of nuts I talk to jpa-
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2024-10-28T22:42:19 < karlp> heh, my servo shits doesn't actually work very well.  seems to brown out when I move both arms at once :)
2024-10-28T22:42:25 < karlp> guess I need to do a more gradual move
2024-10-28T22:42:47 < karlp> I can move one at a time, or move them both by smaller amounts
2024-10-28T22:42:58 < karlp> guess I needed wayyyy more bulk cap on the board
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2024-10-28T22:47:20 < karlp> ahhh, found a trick.  it wasn't _actually_ running off the separate supply
2024-10-28T22:47:36 < karlp> needed to set the dc supply to 5.2v, to make sure it wasn't running off the 5.1V usb
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2024-10-28T23:32:12 < karlp> rst:0xf (BROWNOUT_RST)
2024-10-28T23:32:15 < karlp> yupppp
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2024-10-28T23:46:54 < nomorekaki> dont use your logic supply to drive motors
2024-10-28T23:47:15 < karlp> coorrrrreeeccct :)
2024-10-28T23:47:18 < karlp> amateur hour mistake
2024-10-28T23:47:36 < karlp> what I get for reusing another board where this was the "bonus feature"
2024-10-28T23:47:58 < karlp> pretty sure I can solder a few hundred uF on, which might make it survive a bit more...
2024-10-28T23:48:49 < ventYl> to make the problem demonstration delay a bit more and make it more tricky to debug
2024-10-28T23:50:00 < nomorekaki> karlp: some sort of separation helps a lot even if using same 5V
2024-10-28T23:50:19 < nomorekaki> and the caps are more useful on the mcu side of the thing
2024-10-28T23:50:50 < karlp> I thought Id want some more on the 5V side to stop the regulator falling down
2024-10-28T23:51:04 < karlp> both is going to be important for professionals I guess.
2024-10-28T23:52:02 < nomorekaki> motor voltage doesnt matter the servo will adjust to drops
2024-10-28T23:53:04 < nomorekaki> ofc if can start stuttering if it's a big servo
2024-10-28T23:54:41 < nomorekaki> then your 5V rail is unusable for mcu too
2024-10-28T23:55:46 < nomorekaki> usb can start toggling too
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2024-10-28T23:58:31 < nomorekaki> hmm I once did detection for that where voltage drop triggered comparator and switched off regulator in maybe dozens of nanoseconds
2024-10-28T23:59:08 < nomorekaki> keeping mcu alive and adjusting load down and trying again
--- Day changed ti loka 29 2024
2024-10-29T00:00:10 < nomorekaki> worked with all wall bricks I tried it with
2024-10-29T00:01:22 < nomorekaki> no negotiations just try pull amps
2024-10-29T00:03:26 < karlp> trying to smoothly move it at a slower rate is really jittery.  stutters and not smooth at all.
2024-10-29T00:03:59 < karlp> I don't think there's enough pwm resolution on the servo control
2024-10-29T00:04:16 < karlp> eh, enough of this for tonight I think.
2024-10-29T00:05:13 < nomorekaki> analol servos dont move smoothly when slow I think
2024-10-29T00:05:36 < karlp> it's _meant_ to be digital servo, says it on the can, but yeah, servos instead of brushed, new pains :)
2024-10-29T00:06:25 < nomorekaki> 8bit resolution?
2024-10-29T00:06:52 < karlp> 14bit, but I think I chose the freq too low, so it's choosing new steps that are same as prior steps
2024-10-29T00:07:32 < nomorekaki> more than enough
2024-10-29T00:08:16 < nomorekaki> your servo might have resolution limitations too
2024-10-29T00:12:54 < karlp> ok, pwm at 333hz is ok, but shitty steps resolution pwm at 500 or 1000 to get more step resolution makes the servo go wild.
2024-10-29T00:16:53 < karlp> ok, min step time is 20ms, leave pwm at 333hz, and it's behaving a little better.
2024-10-29T00:17:03 < karlp> wayyyy to late to be working on this though.
2024-10-29T00:20:03 < nomorekaki> some servos might go way higher pwm rates than promised
2024-10-29T00:21:48 < nomorekaki> but not way lower rates than promised
2024-10-29T00:24:53 < karlp> everytme I come near motors it's "whee, I know even less than last time!" :)
2024-10-29T00:25:20 < karlp> well, that's how it feels anyway. I'm lurning, just lurning how muchmore there is too :)
2024-10-29T00:32:28 < nomorekaki> rest
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2024-10-29T00:35:45 < upgrdman> what's a good source for PDFs of books? Library Genesis is nice. any other noteworthy options?
2024-10-29T00:54:27 < specing> <nameofbook> filetype:pdf
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2024-10-29T01:04:23 < nomorekaki> want to use unshitified internets? site:*.edu
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2024-10-29T11:11:04 < qyx> hows innovation going
2024-10-29T11:14:55 < jpa-> hot
2024-10-29T11:35:46 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/F6wLZ/Screenshot_2024-10-29_10-35-30.png
2024-10-29T11:35:47 < qyx> good start
2024-10-29T11:51:55 -!- CatCow [~wtf_over@c-98-246-223-133.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…]
2024-10-29T12:07:25 < qyx> https://www.mouser.sk/ProductDetail/Same-Sky/CMS-30204-18L250?qs=IKkN%2F947nfBNiHHn%2FEWdtw%3D%3D
2024-10-29T12:07:33 < qyx> is 1W enough for a speaking device hanging on a wall?
2024-10-29T12:08:17 < zyp> screaming device
2024-10-29T12:10:40 < jpa-> if you have a good speaker enclosure, sure
2024-10-29T12:11:03 < qyx> no, a 2 mm hole
2024-10-29T12:11:51 < jpa-> lol
2024-10-29T12:11:58 < zyp> whistling device
2024-10-29T12:12:23 < jpa-> it's a miracle how good modern smartphones sound
2024-10-29T12:12:47 < jpa-> i'm never able to get nearly as good performance when i put a tiny speaker behind a tiny hole
2024-10-29T12:12:48 < qyx> hm yeah maybe I should find that kind of speaker
2024-10-29T12:12:49 < zyp> AIUI there's quite a bit of engineering going into it
2024-10-29T12:12:59 < qyx> with a tiny hole
2024-10-29T12:13:01 < jpa-> i think so too
2024-10-29T12:13:56 < zyp> like that macbook stuff, where it needs to actively keep the speakers from blowing up
2024-10-29T12:14:27 < jpa-> huh?
2024-10-29T12:15:06 < zyp> https://github.com/AsahiLinux/docs/wiki/SW:Speakers#smart-amp--safety-support
2024-10-29T12:17:05 < jpa-> cool
2024-10-29T12:17:14 < qyx> Iw ould say hot
2024-10-29T12:18:27  * qyx being triggered by the same sky trademark
2024-10-29T12:20:27 < c10ud> don't you love that you need a Rust daemon running in your device to hear some music?
2024-10-29T12:22:29 < jpa-> as opposed to, say, C or C++ daemon?
2024-10-29T12:22:42 < zyp> when you're making your own device, I think the trick is to pick an amp chip that includes the functionality so you don't need to deal with it yourself
2024-10-29T12:23:16 < zyp> https://www.ti.com/audio-ic/amplifiers/speaker-amplifiers/products.html#89=Smart%20Amp&
2024-10-29T12:23:17 < jpa-> zyp: though i expect if you do that, you'll need to deal with some weirdo vendor tool to tune it to your enclosure
2024-10-29T12:23:24 < zyp> probably
2024-10-29T12:24:02 < jpa-> looks like those only have the current sensing integrated, DSP still needs to run elsewhere
2024-10-29T12:24:51 < jpa-> ah, some have DSP, like TAS2555
2024-10-29T12:26:32 < jpa-> https://www.ti.com/tool/PUREPATHCONSOLE  is the software
2024-10-29T12:26:50 < zyp> the name kinda sounds like something from NSA
2024-10-29T12:27:01 < jpa-> maybe it is not that terrible if it gives you just a binary file to load, instead of requiring some weirdo library
2024-10-29T12:27:42 < qyx> what's about DSP there? you can measure winding temperature by measuring it's resistance, just lower the gain if it is too hot?
2024-10-29T12:27:56 < jpa-> basically that
2024-10-29T12:28:16 < jpa-> it might try to adjust distortion vs. RMS current to reduce temperature without changing volume
2024-10-29T12:32:02 < ventYl> I've been surprised by how good sound an old 2005 Powerbook had
2024-10-29T12:32:49 < ventYl> that particular model was even thinner than most of others. the thinnest notebook in production with probably far the best sound you could get from portable
2024-10-29T13:02:04 < c10ud> modern solutions require modern problems
2024-10-29T13:16:40 < qyx> imagine solving a problem
2024-10-29T14:09:38 < mawk> where can I easily get lead metal
2024-10-29T14:09:52 < mawk> are lead things for fishing actual lead?
2024-10-29T14:10:06 < jpa-> mawk: air gun pellets
2024-10-29T14:10:19 < mawk> ah yeah
2024-10-29T14:18:45 < qyx> is it lead nowadays
2024-10-29T14:19:18 < ventYl> at least over here all sales of lead-based ammunition was banned
2024-10-29T14:20:00 < ventYl> indirectly. using them within X km range from rivers is forbidden. X is so large that you probably can only legally use it on 5 places in the whole country
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2024-10-29T15:01:35 < Steffanx> Mawk: your roof
2024-10-29T15:02:22 < Steffanx> Better: your neighbor's roof
2024-10-29T15:03:31 < qyx> lead?
2024-10-29T15:17:23 < Steffanx> Yeah... 
2024-10-29T15:17:36 < zyp> are you gonna lick it?
2024-10-29T15:18:13 < Steffanx> You never know with mawk
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2024-10-29T15:41:11 < karlp> ventYl: lol, we have a shooting range by the sea that said "lead usage is very low, we estimate under 10%, so no need to get into any sort of actual bans"
2024-10-29T15:41:26 < karlp> actual investigations found it was more like 60% and they're talking about finally actually banning it
2024-10-29T15:56:16 < ventYl> does Island have firing range to train for invasion of Norway?
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2024-10-29T16:08:17 < karlp> norway? we've got our sights set higher than that my dear subject.... :)
2024-10-29T16:08:43 < karlp> nah, lots of bird shooting.  also reindeer, and usual target people.
2024-10-29T16:12:17 < ventYl> how can you use lead less than 10% there? like by hunting reindeers by using grenades?
2024-10-29T16:14:18 < karlp> steel?
2024-10-29T16:14:50 < karlp> same way you do there?
2024-10-29T16:16:48 < ventYl> I thought that FMJ bullets are banned for civil use basically everywhere outside US
2024-10-29T16:18:12  * karlp shrugs
2024-10-29T16:18:39 < karlp> reindeer hunting is _vastly_ less bullets than birds and skeet shooting
2024-10-29T16:18:58 < ventYl> here it seems that bullets are being made from strontium
2024-10-29T16:19:04 < karlp> even if that's all lead, it's inconsequential vs the shotguns.
2024-10-29T16:21:03 < ventYl> actually, copper
2024-10-29T16:21:56 < qyx> the only gun I approve is a bow
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2024-10-29T16:23:11 < qyx> also lold at karlp vs norway
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2024-10-29T17:05:00 < mawk> I found a lead lever finder for sale
2024-10-29T17:05:16 < mawk> I hope it’s actually lead
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2024-10-29T17:26:41 < karlp> lever finder?
2024-10-29T17:44:27 < Steffanx> Didn't you check your roof yet mawk?
2024-10-29T18:41:12 < fenugrec> ventYl at least recently you can still buy surplus, lead-flavoured FMJ in canadia
2024-10-29T18:42:00 < fenugrec> some study from 2018 says 5000 tons of lead ammo is shot in outside shooting ranges
2024-10-29T18:43:10 < ventYl> sweet
2024-10-29T18:43:42 < ventYl> fenugrec: my knowledge on firearms is limited. all I own is some 100 years old airgun
2024-10-29T18:44:56 < fenugrec> hu alternate materials include tungsten (of course, but $$), Cu / Zn alloys of course, and bismuth 
2024-10-29T18:45:08 < fenugrec> I thought the latter was also not very healthy
2024-10-29T18:46:21 < ventYl> probably the main advantage of it is that it is not bioagregable
2024-10-29T18:46:26 < ventYl> unlike lead
2024-10-29T18:46:52 < ventYl> it is just 89 years old model
2024-10-29T18:47:06 < fenugrec> they made airguns in 1935 ? cool
2024-10-29T18:47:34 < ventYl> yeah, it is basically a copy of Mousser 1895 rifle used for army training purposes
2024-10-29T18:48:04 < fenugrec> probably a leather cup piston seal too
2024-10-29T18:48:36 < ventYl> albeit mine has longer serial #, longer barrel and shittier metal, so it suggests it was made during WW2 to be given to police as deterrent, because there was shortage of firearms
2024-10-29T18:50:24 < ventYl> yeah, it had to be repaired already (unsurprisingly)
2024-10-29T18:50:42 < ventYl> also, unsurprisingly, no spare parts are to be found for it anymore
2024-10-29T19:01:02 < mawk> I found a lead level finder at praxis Steffanx 
2024-10-29T19:01:04 < mawk> I'm checking if it's actually lead
2024-10-29T19:01:09 < qyx> I love bismuth solders
2024-10-29T19:01:22 < qyx> they are rohs and make BGA soldering e-z
2024-10-29T19:01:35 < mawk> doesn't appear to be
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2024-10-29T19:01:47 < mawk> my thing is 25cm³ and weight 187g
2024-10-29T19:01:55 < mawk> while lead would weigh 284g
2024-10-29T19:01:57 < mawk> so I don't know what it is
2024-10-29T19:02:44 < mawk> best guess is stainless steel
2024-10-29T19:02:52 < mawk> I measured 7.48g/cm³ density
2024-10-29T19:02:58 < mawk> which is exactly the density of stainless steel
2024-10-29T19:03:02 < mawk> so I will have to use the leaded solder
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2024-10-29T19:06:37 < mawk> karlp: level finder
2024-10-29T19:06:46 < mawk> the thing you dangle until it stops moving and then you know where straight down is
2024-10-29T19:06:48 < mawk> when doing masonry
2024-10-29T19:07:22 < qyx> straight down finder?
2024-10-29T19:07:24 < mawk> yes
2024-10-29T19:07:33 < qyx> not made of lead for ages I guess
2024-10-29T19:07:51 < mawk> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumb_bob
2024-10-29T19:07:54 < mawk> yeah sadly
2024-10-29T19:08:00 < ventYl> construction workers just spit one out and they instantly know
2024-10-29T19:08:02 < mawk> mine is stainless steel according to its density
2024-10-29T19:08:13 < qyx> what about just grabbing and old lead acid battery
2024-10-29T19:08:16 < ventYl> mawk: lead acid battery might provide genuine lead
2024-10-29T19:08:46 < mawk> I don't know where to find that
2024-10-29T19:08:49 < mawk> apart from buying it new
2024-10-29T19:08:52 < mawk> but it's expensive
2024-10-29T19:08:59 < qyx> what
2024-10-29T19:09:02 < mawk> I will try with the leaded solder I have
2024-10-29T19:09:12 < qyx> small batteries are <10e
2024-10-29T19:09:19 < mawk> not at gamma
2024-10-29T19:09:19 < qyx> you can buy them anywhere
2024-10-29T19:09:23 < mawk> the cheapest is like 30€ there
2024-10-29T19:09:25 < mawk> for motorcycle
2024-10-29T19:09:27 < qyx> local store,tme, even mouser
2024-10-29T19:10:05 < qyx> not car parts store
2024-10-29T19:10:16 < qyx> they are also used for cheap chinese and old lanterns and stuff
2024-10-29T19:10:21 < qyx> backup batteries for alarms
2024-10-29T19:11:32 < ventYl> used lead-acid batteries may be sulphated and that turns lead in them to brittle dust-like material which is eeeek
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2024-10-29T19:15:41 < qyx> lol gallium solder alloy, melting temperature 1°C
2024-10-29T19:15:48 < qyx> 15°C
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2024-10-29T19:43:19 < Steffanx> The source I suggested is still your best option mawk :P
2024-10-29T19:51:22 < jpa-> mawk: what do you need the lead for?
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2024-10-29T20:49:29 < mawk> to make lead acetate jpa- 
2024-10-29T20:49:31 < mawk> to detect traces of H2S in our product
2024-10-29T20:49:37 < mawk> the lead acetate paper from the store is not sensitive enough
2024-10-29T20:49:39 < mawk> non conclusive
2024-10-29T20:49:51 < mawk> so currently I'm boiling SnPb solder in acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide
2024-10-29T20:49:55 < mawk> seems to work because the water is changing color
2024-10-29T20:50:01 < mawk> I will neutralize it and evaporate it
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2024-10-29T21:38:04 < qyx> mawk: why don't you buy it?
2024-10-29T21:38:15 < qyx> instead of setting your appartment on fire
2024-10-29T21:38:40 < qyx> I can see it 250g for about 10e
2024-10-29T21:38:43 < qyx> p.a.
2024-10-29T22:04:15 < Steffanx> I recall Telegram mawk said they can't without the proper paperwork and stuff
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2024-10-29T23:33:58 < qyx> so, which is less hassle, I2S DAC+amp or STM32 DAC + analol amp?
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--- Day changed ke loka 30 2024
2024-10-30T00:00:19 -!- nomorekaki [~nomorekak@176-93-27-2.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined ##stm32
2024-10-30T00:00:27 < nomorekaki> hello midnight
2024-10-30T00:03:49 < qyx> o/
2024-10-30T00:03:54 < fenugrec> boiling lead in acid sounds horrible
2024-10-30T00:04:57 < fenugrec> chemistry sucks actually. You always end up with a dirty mess and toxic byproducts that you can't easily dispose of (morally)
2024-10-30T00:05:58 < fenugrec> like those YT vids of mercury on aluminium. Cool effect, but wtf do you do with it when you're done
2024-10-30T00:08:41 < karlp> :+1:
2024-10-30T00:08:57 < qyx> don't you have a kitchen sink?
2024-10-30T00:10:56 < qyx> I don't even use NaOH to clear the piping because I can feel my septic bacteria suffering
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2024-10-30T00:11:37 < qyx> or when draining a tiny bit of citric acid used to clear the kettle
2024-10-30T00:12:14 < qyx> I can literally hear the screaming
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2024-10-30T00:29:38 < nomorekaki> qyx: genset photos
2024-10-30T00:31:55 < qyx> nomorekaki: i'll keep you updated when there is any progress
2024-10-30T00:32:56 < nomorekaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUi6RPZv7hw reposting some mecha anime from 80s
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2024-10-30T00:40:31 < nomorekaki> so what you doing now qyx?
2024-10-30T00:49:07 < qyx> boring work, not even my measurement stuff
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2024-10-30T01:21:15 < nomorekaki> what is boring?
2024-10-30T01:21:38 < zyp> making holes
2024-10-30T01:22:11 < nomorekaki> damn I'm tired
2024-10-30T01:22:19 < nomorekaki> took like 5secs
2024-10-30T01:23:50 < qyx> I can barely see, sleep time too
2024-10-30T01:24:50 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/FKZT1/Screenshot_2024-10-30_00-24-34.png
2024-10-30T01:25:00 < qyx> I am a bit worried about the number of clock inputs this thing has
2024-10-30T01:26:42 < qyx> (TAS2505)
2024-10-30T01:26:45 < jbo> qyx, 
2024-10-30T01:27:02 < zyp> qyx, three? that's normal for I2S and the third one is not even a clock
2024-10-30T01:27:32 < qyx> SCL, SCLK, WCLK, MCLK, BCLK
2024-10-30T01:27:39 < qyx> jbo,
2024-10-30T01:27:44 < jbo> qyx, TPS61043 appears to do the thing
2024-10-30T01:28:00 < zyp> well, if you count I2C/SPI, sure
2024-10-30T01:28:04 < jbo> and somebody fuck a goat if those LEDs are not visible in daylight
2024-10-30T01:28:04 < zyp> but that's also normal
2024-10-30T01:28:41 < qyx> that's 5 of 24, which is 15% more than normal
2024-10-30T01:28:50 < qyx> jbo: oh great
2024-10-30T01:28:55 < zyp> nah
2024-10-30T01:29:32 < qyx> I used PAM8302 on the first revision, I have never actually checked if it works
2024-10-30T01:29:33 < jbo> qyx, better prepare to have your retinas burned out
2024-10-30T01:29:44 < qyx> now I decided to go I2S for the second revision
2024-10-30T01:29:47 < qyx> I hope it works
2024-10-30T01:30:11 < zyp> there's good reasons for all the clocks anyway
2024-10-30T01:31:44 < zyp> MCLK: run the DAC on the same timebase as the source, BCLK: bit clock for the data, WCLK: indicate sample boundaries (and channel for two-channel DACs)
2024-10-30T01:33:27 < zyp> WCLK effectively serves the same sync-role as a SPI CS, and since the stream is continous, it's also continous and hence looks like a clock
2024-10-30T01:39:31 < qyx> nah
2024-10-30T02:00:08 < jbo> awww fuck my retinas
2024-10-30T02:00:14 < jbo> should not have build PCB with blue LEDs
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2024-10-30T03:36:15 < fenugrec> even at 100uA I find typical blue/white LEDs annoying
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2024-10-30T04:15:09 < jbo> I welcome you to explain that to $Customer
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2024-10-30T12:05:06 < karlp> more metrology lol.  if you show _ounces_ it's not allowed to be lower than 1.  but if you show _pounds_ it can be as decimal as you like.
2024-10-30T12:05:26 < karlp> presumably the intent was to never show "3 lb 0.5oz" it had to always be 3lbs or 3lbs 1oz. 
2024-10-30T12:05:56 < karlp> but the outcome of this is you have scales that have "ounces" _only_ that show like 3010 ounces, and never fractions
2024-10-30T12:06:19 < karlp> or "pounds" _only_ that show 3.02 pounds, that no american would ever actaully want to see.
2024-10-30T12:06:32 < karlp> but we've definitely protected the consumer with this.
2024-10-30T12:06:36 -!- rkta [~rkta@user/rkta] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
2024-10-30T12:06:50 < karlp> anyway, let's watch a SPE video insead
2024-10-30T12:07:39 < karlp> no, fucking american timezones. it's not now at all.
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2024-10-30T12:07:49 < zyp> heh
2024-10-30T12:10:01 < karlp> I rewired my servo arms to run off a separate supply last night, and it runns nicely on the bench supply, peaks around 4-5W.
2024-10-30T12:10:23 < karlp> but it won't run at all on a 25W usb wall adapater.
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2024-10-30T12:10:59 < karlp> another halloween project that has largely just failed to be done in time.  try again next year
2024-10-30T12:17:29 < ventYl> karlp: yeah, if the unit system they use is retarded, they are going to deal with retarded problems
2024-10-30T12:31:53 < karlp> in more fun, just watched some people prowl the office looking for a "rogue" unit on the "wrong" static IP.
2024-10-30T12:32:12 < karlp> once again, I suggested DHCP by default, with mdns advertised unique device names to help with discovery
2024-10-30T12:32:42 < karlp> once again, I was met with "lol, who's going to operate name services?!!" and they continued manually inspecting things and operating a manual "DHCP" pool website....
2024-10-30T12:32:57 < karlp> fucking lunatics.
2024-10-30T12:33:32 < qyx> I don't know, but routers do that by default for at least 10 years or so?
2024-10-30T12:33:35 < karlp> the _actual_ it department uses dhcp on narrow vlans, even with effectively static IP assignments per ethernet port when they want, 
2024-10-30T12:33:42 < karlp> but no........ we must do everythign static
2024-10-30T12:33:56 < karlp> and users should enter static ips into alllll config screens on alllll ends of the system
2024-10-30T12:34:20 < karlp> qyx: yeah, it's just pigheaded "we've always done it like this" thinking.
2024-10-30T12:34:37 < karlp> I've made the one I'm working on default to dhcp with mdns, I'll roll it through the others I can touch as I move :)
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2024-10-30T12:37:57 < karlp> mawk: this should be up your alley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH5psADBqvY
2024-10-30T12:57:20 < ventYl> karlp: last time I've heard that phrase I committed German federal crime
2024-10-30T12:58:28 < karlp> which phrase?
2024-10-30T12:59:49 < ventYl> "we've always done it like this"
2024-10-30T13:07:50  * qyx using MAX232 in 2024
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2024-10-30T13:12:37 < qyx> MAX3232CPE+ is 10€ in singles? O_o
2024-10-30T13:13:29 < qyx> ah, I have to look at TI parts, not Maxim/ADI
2024-10-30T13:14:00 < karlp> i iwas just thinking, wat? it's ti, billions of bits
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2024-10-30T13:18:04 < qyx> TI MAX3221 looks good and cheap
2024-10-30T13:20:33 < karlp> fecking, idf.py menuconfig failing to find a terminal again.  I _know_ i've had this before, and I can't for the life of me figure out what is wrong to fix
2024-10-30T13:22:42 < karlp> oh doh, fucking -it flag again. 
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2024-10-30T15:12:29 < qyx> accepting bets for "will qyx be able to make a 10Base-T1S switch without a single line of code?"
2024-10-30T15:14:12 < karlp> lol
2024-10-30T15:16:45 < zyp> :D
2024-10-30T15:17:33 < karlp> foolish me trusting a function header comment "// if size argument is larger than zero, pad strings to that length
2024-10-30T15:17:52 < karlp> what actually happens is that the size gets passed to strncat, so if you _actuall_ pass zero, it does nothing at all.
2024-10-30T15:19:44 < zyp> and?
2024-10-30T15:20:04 < zyp> I don't see an else clause in that comment…
2024-10-30T15:20:21 < karlp> just hating on people going to the effort of documenting, but documenting not what it does.
2024-10-30T15:20:31 < zyp> fair
2024-10-30T15:20:34 < karlp> it only has the if, implying that if it was 0, it would be unpadded.
2024-10-30T15:20:51 < zyp> I do indeed prefer no comments over bad comments
2024-10-30T15:20:51 < karlp> but it needs to be big enough for the result, _and will also be padded with spaces_ to that length
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2024-10-30T15:25:32 < fenugrec> string programming, the bane of C devs since 1989
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2024-10-30T15:28:36 < karlp> oh it's fucking worse.
2024-10-30T15:29:14 < karlp> I had one of the authors of this wonder loudly declare recently that we should abandon lua, and do everythign in C, less errors, easier to maintain.
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2024-10-30T15:29:44 < zyp> ha
2024-10-30T15:30:21 < karlp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/axPD6
2024-10-30T15:30:29 < zyp> I kinda feel like I'm grabbing every chance I have to write python at work
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2024-10-30T15:31:40 < karlp> 2016 replaced strcat with strncat, in some "securitah" joke. without considering whether strcat was ever correct.
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2024-10-30T15:33:31 < jpa-> no matter how wrong it is, strncat() is always a lot better than strcat() :)
2024-10-30T15:35:36 < karlp> I disagree.
2024-10-30T15:35:41 < jpa-> gotta love C standards committee for refusing to standardize strlcat()
2024-10-30T15:36:03 < karlp> passing this longer size repeately allows them to blow wayyyy past what they intended.
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2024-10-30T15:36:21 < zyp> the other day I extended my «let's use python in C unit tests» to let me use coroutines
2024-10-30T15:36:24 < zyp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/djRWS
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2024-10-30T16:27:03 < qyx> are they actively refusing?
2024-10-30T16:27:29 < qyx> (I wasn't interested in the issue recently)
2024-10-30T16:30:53 < ventYl> jpa-: they are making their best to put C into obsolescence as soon as possible
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2024-10-30T17:42:10 < karlp> digikey's SPE presentationa ctually 99% about APL, intrinsic safety shit based on SPE
2024-10-30T17:48:40 < ventYl> they even run some ancient protocol on top of IT
2024-10-30T18:01:15 < karlp> yeah, jus tprofinet ip by the look of it.
2024-10-30T18:01:19 < karlp> and hart shitz
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2024-10-30T18:06:11 < ventYl> not surprising given the fact that Bosch was most probably around decision making
2024-10-30T18:13:03 < karlp> hrm, micropython is being unhelpful
2024-10-30T18:13:17 < karlp> trying to have a blob in memory and not have to do an actaul api.
2024-10-30T18:13:56 < karlp> so "mpremote" then "set(0); set(1)" does no glitches on my pwm, and moves from 0 to 1 nicely.
2024-10-30T18:14:26 < karlp> but 'mpremote exec "set(0)"' ;  'mpremote exec "set(1)"' glitches it.
2024-10-30T18:14:58 < karlp> it keeps being my app object at the same address, but I suspect it's still actually a new instance each time, just always at the same addr because "stable fw loading"
2024-10-30T18:47:58 < qyx> is it finally self-contained and multi instance capable?
2024-10-30T18:49:25 < mawk> nice stuff karlp
2024-10-30T18:50:53 < jpa-> qyx: sure, just bring your own MMU :)
2024-10-30T19:23:51 < qyx> hrmpfh
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2024-10-30T21:03:33 < kdehl> So, I wanted to make a simple test circuit for RS-485 using a microcontroller. Turned out a little more complex than I first anticipated. I'm using an STM32, real RS-232 (because that's what I do!), boot buttons, JTAG, LEDs and a bunch of other nice-to-have goodies. I made a mistake however and assumed I could run the STM32 on 5V. That's obviously wrong. But as I understand from the datasheet, it has 
2024-10-30T21:03:39 < kdehl> 5V-tolerant I/O pins (marked as FT in the datasheet), so it should still work as long as I run the microcontroller on 3.3 V and the rest on 5V, right?
2024-10-30T21:03:42 < kdehl> This is my schematic: https://aws.dose.se/files/rs485_experiment.pdf
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2024-10-30T21:04:31 < kdehl> Is there anything else you guys see that I've missed?
2024-10-30T21:11:30 < zyp> what sort of pinout is J2? you might want to switch to a modern standard debug connector
2024-10-30T21:12:16 < zyp> the D+/D- wiring on the USB connector looks entirely pointless when it's not gonna hook up to anything else
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2024-10-30T21:12:29 < zyp> and on the other hand why don't you hook it up to the MCU? it's got USB
2024-10-30T21:13:11 < zyp> the BOOT1 signal seems completely pointless, I've never seen anyone actually use it
2024-10-30T21:13:44 < zyp> BOOT0 is somewhat useful, but kinda wasteful to dedicate a button to it
2024-10-30T21:14:59 < zyp> I don't recall if the UART revision in F446 has RS485 DE control -- if it does you want to make sure you have it wired to the appropriate pin
2024-10-30T21:15:08 < zyp> and having control of RE seems kinda pointless
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2024-10-30T21:17:30 < zyp> on 5V tolerance, there's two things you need to check
2024-10-30T21:18:00 < zyp> one is that the pins you're using are actually 5V tolerant, depending on the chip not all pins are
2024-10-30T21:18:06 < kdehl> zyp: The J2 is just a connector that I used in a previous experimental board. And it worked, so I figured I'd stick with it.
2024-10-30T21:18:18 < kdehl> I've checked the 5V-tolerance. It seems fine.
2024-10-30T21:18:33 < zyp> and the other is that you need to check if V_IH is low enough on the 5V parts that you can drive them from 3.3V IO
2024-10-30T21:18:40 < kdehl> Yeah, The BOOT buttons might be wasteful.
2024-10-30T21:18:53 < kdehl> This is true. I'll have a look at that.
2024-10-30T21:19:43 < zyp> personally I like transceivers with separate vcc and vio inputs
2024-10-30T21:19:57 < zyp> like THVD1424
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2024-10-30T21:36:00 < kdehl> zyp: Seems like minimum high voltage is 2.0 V, so I believe I'm safe.
2024-10-30T21:36:59 < kdehl> Minimum input high voltage, even. For DE, DI and ~RE, explicitly.
2024-10-30T21:44:26 < qyx> I used thvd1450 or what exactly it was today
2024-10-30T21:45:18 < qyx> for DE, connect it to he RTS output
2024-10-30T21:45:25 < kdehl> Ah cool. A RS-485 tranceiver
2024-10-30T21:45:34 < qyx> you can use rts or an actual DE if the mcu supports it
2024-10-30T21:46:35 < kdehl> qyx: Looks like it does. Interesting! I've never used that before.
2024-10-30T21:47:46 < qyx> also, are you sure TXD goes to pin 2?
2024-10-30T21:48:20 < qyx> (I know only the "normal uart" connected with nullmodem cables)
2024-10-30T21:48:28 < qyx> not the dte/dce modem stuff
2024-10-30T21:49:13 < kdehl> I wanted to not have to use null modem cables. I really hope I got those pins right though.
2024-10-30T21:49:22 < qyx> also I am pretty sure you should not limit RS232 signals to 0-5 V
2024-10-30T21:49:40 < qyx> because with max3232 it swings to about +-8 V or so
2024-10-30T21:51:18 < qyx> max3232 has enough esd protection on its own, if you want additional one, use nup2105 or similar
2024-10-30T21:51:26 < qyx> NUP2105L
2024-10-30T21:51:49 < kdehl> qyx: No this was a mistake.
2024-10-30T21:52:21 < kdehl> Really, I don't have to protect it? What about the MAX485, does it have built-in protection as well?
2024-10-30T21:52:45 < qyx> depends on your use case
2024-10-30T21:52:54 < zyp> transceivers often have the bus side somewhat protected
2024-10-30T21:53:15 < zyp> but dedicated protection can typically handle more
2024-10-30T21:54:31 < kdehl> Alright.
2024-10-30T21:55:02 < qyx> yeah it differs a bit when you are doing a bench top device or a device which needs to survive indirect lightning strike
2024-10-30T21:56:16 < kdehl> Hehe. Yeah. But it doesn't hurt to design it well. I suspect I will copy this design later if I ever make something useful with RS-485.
2024-10-30T22:04:49 < kdehl> qyx: Would you say that is a common scenario, most people use null modem cables now so I should just ignore the DTE/DCE distinction?
2024-10-30T22:06:53 < zyp> hmm, eliminating the separate scan_deps step from erect is a decent speedup
2024-10-30T22:13:35 < zyp> instead of working out the module dependencies ahead of time, I just start building everything, and then let the module mapper suspend a compiler when it's waiting for a module that's not built yet
2024-10-30T22:13:40 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/4LJrH.png
2024-10-30T22:14:10 < zyp> cuts around 700ms off the build time for this project
2024-10-30T22:17:31 < zyp> it has one disadvantage and that's that you get a bunch of suspended compiler instances beyond the maxjobs setting just sitting around eating RAM
2024-10-30T22:18:56 < zyp> which is probably not an issue for the sort of projects I'm targetting
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2024-10-30T23:04:36 < karlp> kdehl: sm712 for rs485 lines instead of those bav...
2024-10-30T23:05:14 < karlp> controlling RE is for some of the fancier tricks with rs485.  automatic collision detection and shit,
2024-10-30T23:05:24 < karlp> very much not required for modbus or anything plain and boring.
2024-10-30T23:07:13 < karlp> kdehl: you _may_ want to have line biasing for rs485, depending on what you're really planning on doing.
2024-10-30T23:08:11 < karlp> and absolutel, if the board has usb, connect it at least!
2024-10-30T23:08:34 < karlp> (do you need the 32k clock at all?)
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2024-10-31T09:14:52 < qyx> I am mildly hesitant to use the cube again
2024-10-31T09:18:47 < jpa-> are the corners too sharp?
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2024-10-31T09:38:07 < qyx> clicking on a pin in cube and opening the menu causes the whole desktop to lag
2024-10-31T09:38:41 < qyx> eg. I opened the menu to see the options for a pin, switched the virtual desktop to kicad, tried to do something, nope
2024-10-31T09:39:04 < qyx> replicated it three times, definitely some while (1) redraw
2024-10-31T09:39:35 < qyx> java 50%, xorg 120% when the menu is open
2024-10-31T09:42:13 < jpa-> such hypocrisy
2024-10-31T09:42:24 < jpa-> you try to cheat on cube with another application, and then you blame the victim
2024-10-31T09:44:34 < aandrew> cube is just a terrible piece of shit
2024-10-31T09:49:49 < jpa-> bashing your ex is not nice
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2024-10-31T09:57:49 < ventYl> those freezes are entirely random. for me, for some time, cube was freezeing the whole machine for like two seconds when starting
2024-10-31T09:57:59 < ventYl> then it suddenly stopped doing it
2024-10-31T09:58:53 < ventYl> yet maybe I initially ran it on slackware with X server and here it on Arch I am using Wayland
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2024-10-31T10:26:28 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/DCtZc/Screenshot_2024-10-31_09-26-11.png
2024-10-31T10:26:30 < qyx> half dun \o/
2024-10-31T10:26:40 < qyx> unrouted: 233
2024-10-31T10:26:45 < Steffanx> Slackware, arch .. you're out ventYl 
2024-10-31T10:28:19 < qyx> I am about to fail on SAI
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2024-10-31T10:54:59 < karlp> what ar eyou making this time? keypad, speaker, display?
2024-10-31T10:57:48 < qyx> nah, basically a HMI, workstuff
2024-10-31T10:58:17 < qyx> with ethernetz and some opus decoding to play sounds
2024-10-31T10:58:30 < qyx> hopefully
2024-10-31T10:58:43 < jpa-> what software has those funny bendy ratsnest lines?
2024-10-31T10:59:37 < qyx> kicad
2024-10-31T11:01:38 < ventYl> Steffanx: I am enjoying it
2024-10-31T11:01:55 < jpa-> ah, found the setting
2024-10-31T11:01:56 < jpa-> cool
2024-10-31T11:02:15 < qyx> yeah I like it
2024-10-31T11:03:55 < jpa-> it's amazing how far kicad has come in a decade
2024-10-31T11:04:44 < ventYl> is it really derived from gschem? if yes, then it is even more amazing
2024-10-31T11:05:29 < qyx> with some exceptions which are clearly wrong
2024-10-31T11:05:40 < qyx> like adopting 50 mil grid instead of 100 mil because IPC says so
2024-10-31T11:05:42 < qyx> fuk IPC
2024-10-31T11:06:07 < qyx> (my ocpd was fighting with it yesterday on their irc)
2024-10-31T11:07:33 < jpa-> ventYl: i don't think it is
2024-10-31T11:08:45 < karlp> it's definitely not from gschem
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2024-10-31T14:13:52 < kdehl> karlp: Great input! I'll look into the SM712. I know, I don't really need the 32k clock, but I just leave it in there, it costs like nothing for JLC to mount it. (It's a basic part IIRC.)
2024-10-31T14:14:32 < kdehl> So RE is not that important. I think I'll leave it in there anyway, I might want to make experiments with it at some point. It is an experimantal board, after all.
2024-10-31T14:15:03 < kdehl> karlp: What about biasing in this case, what does that mean?
2024-10-31T14:21:01 < zyp> https://www.ti.com/ods/images/SSZTAK0/GUID-BC2BFA54-2E05-4CDE-B395-F96399998AEC-low.png <- the red resistors
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2024-10-31T14:44:00 < karlp> I'd wire up a functional usb port wayyyy before I wired in a 32k crystal :) (do both!)
2024-10-31T14:44:07 < karlp> and yeah, the red resistors.
2024-10-31T14:44:32 < karlp> https://www.ti.com/lit/pdf/snla049 maybe useful as well.
2024-10-31T14:45:12 < karlp> hrm, not actually the document I was looking for, but related.
2024-10-31T14:45:59 < kdehl> Pull-up and pull-down resistors?
2024-10-31T14:46:35 < kdehl> karlp: Interesting PDF!
2024-10-31T14:47:42 < karlp> we always had small caps across and up/down as well, I think that was more for emi though.
2024-10-31T14:47:50 < karlp> if you're not doign certs, fuck it
2024-10-31T14:48:02 < karlp> what's the experiment _to do_ thought?
2024-10-31T14:49:23 < karlp> https://www.ti.com/lit/an/slla272d/slla272d.pdf is also useful
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2024-10-31T14:50:41 < kdehl> Just learn RS-485. Make a few slave nodes that the master collects data from. That's about it. I'll probably throw in a USB-to-RS-485 dongle and connect my compute to the network too.
2024-10-31T14:51:11 < zyp> there's not a whole lot to learn, it's just UART
2024-10-31T14:51:46 < karlp> yeah, rs485 is just uart, it's what goes on top that normally has a bit of learning understanding
2024-10-31T14:52:25 < kdehl> Well, I still want to experiment with it. Making this board is part of the experiment.
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2024-10-31T15:14:05 < kdehl> Dunno if I should implement my own version of Modbus.
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2024-10-31T15:21:19 < bitmask> M4 pro with 48GB unified memory or max with 64GB
2024-10-31T15:21:33 < bitmask> I don't know if it will ever happen, but I like the idea that with 64gb I can play with 70b param llms
2024-10-31T15:21:46 < bitmask> I prob can with 48 too but max has twice the memory bandwidth
2024-10-31T15:30:11 -!- Livio [~livio@user/livio] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
2024-10-31T15:30:46 < zyp> I have a M2 max with 64, it's nice
2024-10-31T15:31:00 < bitmask> $4600 is so much money
2024-10-31T15:31:16 < bitmask> $4200 if I drop down to 1TB storage from 2
2024-10-31T15:31:36 < bitmask> but if I'm doing it for possibility of llm, 1tb isn't gonna cut it
2024-10-31T15:32:10 < zyp> I've got 512GB
2024-10-31T15:32:29 < bitmask> damn, I got 1tb on my current 2015
2024-10-31T15:32:45 < bitmask> cant wait to see the jump from intel to M4 pro/max
2024-10-31T15:33:05 < zyp> not worth paying for more than the minimum, I'll rather stick a nvme or two in a thunderbolt enclosure
2024-10-31T15:33:36 < bitmask> thats actually not a bad idea for llm, 1tb might be fine then
2024-10-31T15:34:17 < bitmask> m4 has thunderbolt 5 too, i dont even know what speeds everything runs at currently though 
2024-10-31T15:35:25 < bitmask> I gotta figure out how taxes work hah, I might want to wait 2 months so that I can use it as a tax write off next year
2024-10-31T15:35:49 < bitmask> unless I can 'finance' it and count that for next year
2024-10-31T15:36:26 < bitmask> I'll probably end up going with the max/64gb
2024-10-31T15:36:32 < bitmask> whats another 1100
2024-10-31T15:36:45 < bitmask> 700 maybe
2024-10-31T15:37:22 < zyp> which model are you looking at? mbp or studio?
2024-10-31T15:37:27 < bitmask> half a week of work for something thats gonna last years
2024-10-31T15:37:29 < bitmask> mbp
2024-10-31T15:37:45 < zyp> mine is a studio
2024-10-31T15:37:49 < bitmask> ahh
2024-10-31T15:38:04 < bitmask> ive never considered one, maybe I should
2024-10-31T15:38:11 < zyp> bought as a business, so both VAT and tax written off
2024-10-31T15:38:11  * qyx hides with his 150€ computer
2024-10-31T15:38:20 < zyp> :)
2024-10-31T15:39:10 < zyp> I bought it last year to replace a hackintosh from 2012
2024-10-31T15:39:41 < bitmask> how is windows virtualization on mac silicon?
2024-10-31T15:39:49 < zyp> dunno, never attempted it
2024-10-31T15:39:53 < bitmask> hmm
2024-10-31T15:40:45 < zyp> I got some hardware from a friend, so I put it in a rackmount cabinet and set it up as a physical windows box
2024-10-31T15:40:53 < zyp> RDP works fine
2024-10-31T15:41:53 < zyp> cost me around 3000€ before write-offs, probably less than half after
2024-10-31T15:45:19 < bitmask> man, I'm excited, I really dont wanna wait 2 months, might just eat the tax savings
2024-10-31T15:48:15 < qyx> shouldn't you save you money for the crisis if trump loses?
2024-10-31T15:48:26 < bitmask> funny
2024-10-31T15:48:31 < jpa-> what value does money have if there is a good crisis?
2024-10-31T15:48:53 < qyx> I am not being funny, the world is seriously fukd now
2024-10-31T15:48:58 < qyx> but meh
2024-10-31T15:49:06 < jpa-> having an off-grid LLM ready to push pro-trump propaganda could be the key factor in gaining status in the new world order
2024-10-31T15:50:28 < bitmask> I should build a nice NAS too
2024-10-31T15:52:36 < bitmask> 5 10TB for $1000
2024-10-31T15:53:01 < bitmask> and how much is the nas, 600?
2024-10-31T15:54:13 < bitmask> i never remember what raid I want, 5? 6? 0+1 1+0 I dont even remember what there is
2024-10-31T15:54:58 < jpa-> raid is old-school, filesystem level mirroring/striping is the new thing
2024-10-31T15:55:13 < bitmask> never heard of it
2024-10-31T15:55:59 < qyx> and that's sad, good raid is good
2024-10-31T15:56:41 < jpa-> in any case i don't see much point in raid 0 nowadays, and raid 5/6 are also a bit silly with the large drives
2024-10-31T15:58:06 < jpa-> raid 1 per pair and separate partitions per mirror would give the best chance of recovering at least some of the data even if multiple disks are destroyed
2024-10-31T15:59:14 < qyx> are 10TB rusts that cheap nowadays?
2024-10-31T15:59:35 < qyx> I would probably to a nvme nas instead
2024-10-31T15:59:37 < bitmask> $200 for WD red (nas)
2024-10-31T15:59:54 < bitmask> 4tb is 100
2024-10-31T16:00:54 < qyx> 4TB seagate ironwolf is 76€ here
2024-10-31T16:01:22 < bitmask> I have i think 3 4TB wd reds
2024-10-31T16:01:27 < qyx> sorry 105€
2024-10-31T16:01:54 < bitmask> just in shitty usb 3 enclosures
2024-10-31T16:01:58 < qyx> 76€ was a discounted one
2024-10-31T16:02:28 < bitmask> that 200 price might have been a discount
2024-10-31T16:02:54 < qyx> 4TB 2.5" barracuda is 121€, a better option for me, I have 12x 2.5" bays
2024-10-31T16:03:15 < qyx> also less power hungry
2024-10-31T16:06:27 < bitmask> I could really use like $60k right now :P
2024-10-31T16:07:38 < qyx> for 60k I would buy a land and go graze sheep
2024-10-31T16:15:44 < karlp> I'm pretty happy with 2x6TB in raid1 on the cheap qnap I got.  farrrr better than the usb3 external drive I was using before.
2024-10-31T16:16:46 < zyp> my 16x3TB raidz3 is still going well
2024-10-31T16:16:50 < zyp> I think
2024-10-31T16:16:55 < qyx> :D
2024-10-31T16:17:07 < zyp> oh
2024-10-31T16:17:23 < qyx> sounds like degraded or broken?
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2024-10-31T16:17:57 < zyp> indeed
2024-10-31T16:17:58 < zyp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/wl8zV
2024-10-31T16:18:28 < zyp> it's okay, it's still double-redundant
2024-10-31T16:19:34 < zyp> hmm, slot3, according to my spreadsheet that was the newest of the still surviving seagate drives I have left
2024-10-31T16:20:12 < zyp> one of five, the other 11 have been replaced with hitachis
2024-10-31T16:20:53 < zyp> that makes 27 disk failures so far
2024-10-31T16:21:06 < zyp> (hence why I even have a spreadsheet)
2024-10-31T16:21:51 < zyp> and yeah, this is the disk model that's so bad it even has a wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ST3000DM001
2024-10-31T16:23:13 < zyp> s/hitachi/toshiba/
2024-10-31T16:27:00 < c10ud_> wow, you guys really do some data
2024-10-31T16:30:57 < bitmask> I think I've only ever had 1 disk failure and that was about 20-25 years ago
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2024-10-31T16:33:10 < zyp> I've had a few on other models, but not anything like these seagates
2024-10-31T16:33:12 < fenugrec> I read more than once that statistically, with today's huge drives, RAID for redundancy (so R1, and the one with striping / parity) is useless, it takes so much time to rebuild an array... fs-level is ndeed, the new thing. Like ZFS, btrfs if you like to live on the edge, some others
2024-10-31T16:34:37 < bitmask> so ZFS is purely for safety, theres no performance gain? or wait, you said it does striping too?
2024-10-31T16:34:50 < zyp> of course it does
2024-10-31T16:35:06 < zyp> raidz are filesystem-level striping with parity
2024-10-31T16:35:21 < bitmask> ok i'll look it up
2024-10-31T16:35:27 < zyp> raidz1 is like raid5, raidz2 is like raid6, and raidz3 is then like a theoretical raid7
2024-10-31T16:35:58 < c10ud_> i've always thought..how do you guarantee your data integrity when you have TBs >>> 1, with lots of stale data 
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2024-10-31T16:36:13 < zyp> c10ud_, scrubbing
2024-10-31T16:36:15 < c10ud_> what's the preferred way to handle it in todays' tech
2024-10-31T16:37:07 < zyp> zfs checksums everything that goes on the disk, and a scrub scans through everything verifying checksums, reconstructing corrupt blocks if it finds any
2024-10-31T16:37:27 < c10ud_> but you need to do it, like daily full disk
2024-10-31T16:37:39 < zyp> why daily?
2024-10-31T16:37:52 < c10ud_> because you most probably won't hit bad data in stale data until your backups may have fallen over, or something
2024-10-31T16:38:04 < zyp> it's more a monthly thing
2024-10-31T16:38:18 < c10ud_> i see
2024-10-31T16:38:52 < zyp> it ties into the redundancy, if you have corrupt data, it can tell which of the redundant parts are corrupt and which are good, and reconstruct the bad from the good
2024-10-31T16:40:00 < zyp> I'm tempted to try ceph next time I'm investing in storage
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2024-10-31T16:55:59 < bitmask> alright, so now I want a z2 with 5 or 6 disks
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2024-10-31T17:42:00 < jpa-> meh, fedex is trying to charge some 37 EUR bullshit fee
2024-10-31T17:52:44 < ventYl> for what? that sounds a lot like what DHL charges for import duty handling
2024-10-31T18:01:22 < jpa-> "airport transport fee"
2024-10-31T18:01:36 < jpa-> duties etc. are listed as 0 (business import)
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2024-10-31T18:33:03 < Shaun_> I've been having nonsense fees from fedex.  especially since the email they provide for them isn't answered by a human
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2024-10-31T21:19:20 < qyx> zyp: tried it when it was very new, it had serious performance issues
2024-10-31T21:19:39 < qyx> I also tried moosefs, not usable either
2024-10-31T21:19:53 < qyx> but it was back in 2010-2011 or so
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2024-10-31T23:55:22 < nomorekaki> hello midnight
2024-10-31T23:55:29 < qyx> ohai
2024-10-31T23:55:38 < Steffanx> It's only 22.55 Mr nomorekaki 
2024-10-31T23:55:47 < nomorekaki> movie steff
2024-10-31T23:56:00 < nomorekaki> movie now
2024-10-31T23:56:02 < Steffanx> Pizza?
2024-10-31T23:56:08 < nomorekaki> yes
2024-10-31T23:56:17 < Steffanx> Excellent 
2024-10-31T23:58:49 < Steffanx> What's today's mood nomorekaki ?
2024-10-31T23:58:55 < nomorekaki> movie
2024-10-31T23:59:28 < nomorekaki> I want to find something
--- Log closed pe marras 01 00:00:09 2024