--- Log opened Sun Dec 01 10:28:30 2024
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2024-12-01T16:03:46 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.poast.org/pic/media%2FGdrrgN4W4AAA3gU.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
2024-12-01T16:04:18 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.poast.org/pic/media%2FGdrfM-sW4AA7xiy.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp
2024-12-01T16:22:54 < Steffanx> whoa you're alive Laurenceb_ !
2024-12-01T16:23:10 < Laurenceb_> I managed to avoid the 25kV
2024-12-01T16:25:10 < jpa-> when will they try again?
2024-12-01T16:30:20 < Laurenceb_> lol
2024-12-01T16:30:36  * Laurenceb_ is working on a 1.5kV AC system now
2024-12-01T16:31:02 < Laurenceb_> I managed to put 25kV into a bench LCR meter :(
2024-12-01T16:32:50 < Laurenceb_> measurement board and case were vapourised but some modules survived
2024-12-01T16:32:51 < Steffanx> Shit happens
2024-12-01T16:33:48 < Laurenceb_> I forgot it was inside a cabinate then closed the door and turned the substation on
2024-12-01T16:34:38 < Laurenceb_> atm we are making a 2MW six phase inverter using combination of GaN and SiC
2024-12-01T16:36:56 < Laurenceb_> high voltage GaN would solve all our problems, but doesnt look like its happening any time soon
2024-12-01T16:40:29 < Laurenceb_> silicon IGBT inverters typically switch at 1kHz and use the motor inductance to smooth the current, this inverter will switch at 200kHz and using insulated iron powder ferrite cores to smooth the current. This reduces EMI and losses from the motor cables and allows low inductance motors to be used. Also almost no risk from partial discharge
2024-12-01T16:40:30 < Laurenceb_> breakdown of the insulation compared to conventional designs
2024-12-01T16:41:15 < Laurenceb_> lots of Si IGBT systems actually slow down their switching edges to reduce the horrible EMI
2024-12-01T16:41:53 < Laurenceb_> I found a Siemens system with a "cheat code" line to turn this on/off
2024-12-01T16:43:37 < Laurenceb_> it also seems EVs are using the same scheme - no wonder they cant hav AM radios
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2024-12-01T19:48:20 < zyp> I think the lack of AM radios in modern cars is mostly due to the lack of AM broadcasts
2024-12-01T20:17:01 < qyx> I do have AM radio and no DAB in a 2019 one
2024-12-01T20:17:17 < qyx> idk what for, maybe for wartimes
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2024-12-01T21:02:21 < BrainDamage> to hear lightning stormss
2024-12-01T21:02:25 < BrainDamage> * storms
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2024-12-02T16:01:19 < qyx> hello pros, anybody using aliases in thunderbird?
2024-12-02T16:15:01 < qyx> a simple use case, a mail account and an alias, mail is sent to the alias, delivered to the mail account maildir
2024-12-02T16:15:30 < qyx> I map the account in thundebird, open the received mail, hit "reply" and it replies to the alias, not the original sender
2024-12-02T16:15:36 < qyx> reply all does the same
2024-12-02T16:16:08 < qyx> apart from that, it also fails to match the associated identity, it is always using the default one
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2024-12-02T17:04:22 < jpa-> qyx: works for me; reply to is always correct, reply from is correct if i have the alias defined in settings -> manage identities
2024-12-02T17:05:00 < qyx> works for me too now, it probably always worked
2024-12-02T17:05:11 < qyx> it works for all emails *not* configured in TB
2024-12-02T17:05:20 < jpa-> lol
2024-12-02T17:05:36 < qyx> it doesn't work as soon as you use another email which is (by any chance) configured in TB too
2024-12-02T17:06:02 < jpa-> hmm yeah, that could be an interesting case
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2024-12-02T23:28:34 < catphish> what is core_cm4.h
2024-12-02T23:28:57 < catphish> i am trying to build a new project against the the STM32Cube libraries and seem to be missing this file
2024-12-02T23:38:06 < catphish> interesting, this file is present in the G0 and G4 libraries, but missing from the F4 library (which references it)
2024-12-02T23:45:43 < catphish> hmm, seems to be a bug with how i downloaded the library, downloading it using CubeMX sees to pull in more files and it works
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2024-12-03T00:48:17 < ventYl> catphish: that's the CMSIS core header
2024-12-03T00:48:48 < ventYl> I resorted to letting Cube to generate the project skeleton
2024-12-03T01:06:18 < qyx> ipv6 pros, I think zyp was talking about this particular subject
2024-12-03T01:06:36 < qyx> for various reasons I want a service to have its own dedicated ipv6 (link-local) address
2024-12-03T01:07:12 < qyx> there may be multiple services on a single device
2024-12-03T01:08:29 < qyx> and I have a simple switch like the one in ADIN1112 allowing up to 16 MAC address filters/table entries to forward to the MAC
2024-12-03T01:08:40 < qyx> but what if I  have more than 16 services
2024-12-03T01:08:43 < qyx> oh wait
2024-12-03T01:09:37 < qyx> only a single mac address is sufficient, NDP will advertise all IPs and the single mac
2024-12-03T01:09:47 < qyx> ok thanks rubber ducks
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2024-12-03T01:23:00 < ventYl> quack
2024-12-03T01:30:35 < catphish> qyx: i think you already figured this out, but you can have as many IPs as you like per MAC, and you shold ideally only have one MAC
2024-12-03T01:32:05 < catphish> the only thing i'm unsure about is how you would choose additional link-local IP addresses
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2024-12-03T01:32:56 < zyp> I agree with that solution
2024-12-03T01:33:29 < zyp> you'd need more MAC addrs if you derived the v6 addr from the MAC, but you're not required to do that
2024-12-03T01:33:50 < qyx> catphish: randomly and hope DaD resolves it
2024-12-03T01:33:53 < catphish> hopefully there's a correct address space within the link-local space for non-mac derived addresses
2024-12-03T01:33:56 < zyp> the privacy stuff nowadays replaces ipv6 addrs all the time
2024-12-03T01:34:17 < qyx> I will probably have < 100 devices on a single network
2024-12-03T01:34:27 < qyx> and 32 bits of the address will be generated randomly
2024-12-03T01:34:32 < qyx> so pretty low chance of a collision
2024-12-03T01:34:36 < catphish> random, yes, but within the correct space
2024-12-03T01:34:51 < qyx> do they really need to be link local?
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2024-12-03T01:35:03 < qyx> there's that thing
2024-12-03T01:35:04 < catphish> that was your requirement, not mine
2024-12-03T01:35:12 < catphish> i don't know the use case
2024-12-03T01:35:39 < catphish> but if you're generating random addresses, then probably yes
2024-12-03T01:35:42 < qyx> the "private space" in ipv6, but it has a 3-letter abbreviation
2024-12-03T01:36:12 < qyx> ULA
2024-12-03T01:36:15 < catphish> what's the use case
2024-12-03T01:36:38 < catphish> if they're just talking locally with no routing / managed network invoved, it should be link-local
2024-12-03T01:36:56 < qyx> a bunch of measurement devices on a local 10base-t1l network talking to a MQTT broker on a local DAQ device
2024-12-03T01:37:16 < zyp> if it's not link local, you need to set up a route
2024-12-03T01:37:34 < zyp> link-local gets a default route
2024-12-03T01:38:08 < qyx> for some reason I was considering that ULA thing in the past
2024-12-03T01:38:14 < qyx> link local makes sense
2024-12-03T01:38:28 < catphish> there is a correct method for generating a random link-local address
2024-12-03T01:38:28 < qyx> the reason for that was probably I wanted them to be routable over a vpn
2024-12-03T01:39:18 < catphish> yeah if you want it routable you should choose a ULA or real prefix
2024-12-03T01:39:26 < catphish> if it's just local then use LL
2024-12-03T01:40:20 < catphish> basically you can use the same random addressing for link-local that you can use for SLAAC
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2024-12-03T01:40:55 < catphish> also, you know port numbers are a thing right?
2024-12-03T01:41:32 < qyx> :>
2024-12-03T01:42:25 < qyx> the thing is I already have a protocol specs which is in use and I want to make the IP version backwards compatible
2024-12-03T01:42:56 < qyx> now all services have 32 bit IDs
2024-12-03T01:43:03 < qyx> each having multiple endpoints
2024-12-03T01:43:27 < qyx> and all are advertising their descriptors with various service metadata and their place in a tree structure
2024-12-03T01:43:52 < qyx> so I want to follow the scheme, service ID -> IP, endpoint -> UDP port
2024-12-03T01:44:13 < qyx> NDP replaces my current advertisement protocol
2024-12-03T01:44:41 < qyx> and endpoints (UDP ports) are well-known
2024-12-03T01:51:48 < catphish> that took way too long, but i found it. the way to craft a random 64 bit address is to set bit 7 to zero, and the rest can be random
2024-12-03T01:52:15 < catphish> if you have a 32 bit identifier, probably simpest to set the first 32 bits to zero, and the final 32 bits to your identifier
2024-12-03T01:53:12 < qyx> yeah
2024-12-03T01:53:15 < catphish> of course, if you're already doing this for ipv4, you can just set the final 32 bits to the same ipv4 address
2024-12-03T01:53:35 < qyx> nope I want to skip ipv4
2024-12-03T01:54:36 < catphish> okay, well then... fe80:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000:nnnn:nnnn where nnnn:nnnn is a random 32 bit integer
2024-12-03T01:54:56 < catphish> and you can use as many of those as you like
2024-12-03T01:55:10 < qyx> so fe80::id
2024-12-03T01:55:23 < catphish> yep, simple as that
2024-12-03T01:55:26 < qyx> looks easy enough
2024-12-03T01:55:51 < catphish> the bit that defines is as being "locally administered" it well within those zeros in the middle, by design, to make this easy
2024-12-03T01:55:56 < qyx> my network-fu is void since 2011
2024-12-03T01:56:21 < qyx> ls -lah
2024-12-03T01:56:32 < catphish> "The motivation for inverting the "u" bit when forming an interface
2024-12-03T01:56:32 < catphish>    identifier is to make it easy for system administrators to hand
2024-12-03T01:56:32 < catphish>    configure non-global identifiers when hardware tokens are not
2024-12-03T01:56:32 < catphish>    available."
2024-12-03T01:56:55 < catphish> "The alternative would have been for
2024-12-03T01:56:55 < catphish>    these to be of the form 0200:0:0:1, 0200:0:0:2, etc., instead of the
2024-12-03T01:56:55 < catphish>    much simpler 0:0:0:1, 0:0:0:2, etc."
2024-12-03T01:58:04 < catphish> so tldr: they purposely made it easy for you to just make the last 32 bits your ID. the first 64 bits can then be fe80:: for link-local, or any other prefix you like, if you want to build a routed network
2024-12-03T01:59:10 < qyx> \o/ thanks
2024-12-03T01:59:22 < catphish> i worte a whole IP stack for STM32 IoT back in 2020, i'm just digging it out of retirement for a new project
2024-12-03T01:59:41 < catphish> i did IPv4, ARP, DHCP, DNS and UDP
2024-12-03T02:08:18 < qyx> I want ipv4, (dns), udp, mqtt
2024-12-03T02:08:30 < qyx> I plan to try cycloneTCP
2024-12-03T02:08:35 < qyx> sorry ipv6
2024-12-03T02:11:30 < zyp> I started on an ipv6 stack half a year ago, will probably pick that up again at some point
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2024-12-03T02:11:53 < zyp> I have a relay card I eventually want to take commands from mqtt
2024-12-03T02:13:17 < qyx> huh openwrt has no make savedefconfig
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2024-12-03T02:31:01 < catphish> i very likely will never attempt TCP
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2024-12-03T11:40:10 < mawk> you want ipv6 but only on the local link qyx ?
2024-12-03T11:47:01 < qyx> kinda, but I guess vpn routable too, not global
2024-12-03T11:47:20 < qyx> only for occasions when I need to configure the device directly using web ui
2024-12-03T11:50:38 < mawk> then you don't want fe80, you can use something in fd00::/8
2024-12-03T11:50:48 < mawk> fe80 cannot be routed
2024-12-03T11:51:06 < qyx> yes I know
2024-12-03T11:56:00 < c10ud> given we're talking ip.....if you have a device which is comprised of a stm32 and a random embedded linux thing, being the stm32 the main source of connectivity, how would you present such device to the lan?
2024-12-03T11:56:38 < c10ud> the nicer way to do it would be a nat like router in front of the two things
2024-12-03T11:57:28 < c10ud> in the past i did a similar project and used a microtik, but i wondered if there's any router-on-chip capable of doing this
2024-12-03T11:57:44 < mawk> the random embedded linux thing can be a very capable router
2024-12-03T11:57:47 < mawk> you don't need anything extra
2024-12-03T11:58:20 < c10ud> the problem was mainly that 1. the stm32 could not easily manage the addressing stuff, 2. the random embedded stuff was spitting multicasts that needed to be routed outside the nat
2024-12-03T11:58:45 < mawk> the linux box can do NAT
2024-12-03T11:58:55 < c10ud> mawk, problem is that it can be present, or not, that's why the stm32 needs to be in control
2024-12-03T11:58:58 < mawk> then the stm32 doesn't have any different addresses to deal with, it only knows one device, the linux box
2024-12-03T11:59:02 < mawk> ah
2024-12-03T11:59:13 < mawk> but you will have a mikrotik router present no matter what
2024-12-03T11:59:24 < mawk> so why not replace that by having the linux box always here
2024-12-03T11:59:26 < mawk> that sounds cheaper
2024-12-03T12:00:14 < c10ud> yeah not really when it's some nvidia stuff, but i always wondered about programmable routing chips, without resorting to fpga and writing your own slim packet router
2024-12-03T12:01:28 < qyx> programmabke routing chip is a linux soc with multiple interfaces
2024-12-03T12:01:44 < qyx> on soho solutions routing is not done in hardware
2024-12-03T12:01:55 < mawk> stuff a raspberry pi in it
2024-12-03T12:02:26 < qyx> there are special SoMs for that
2024-12-03T12:02:38 < qyx> onion omega or that other similar thing
2024-12-03T12:02:49 < qyx> which is basically a router in a moduke with openwrt
2024-12-03T12:03:02 < qyx> 1 wan port, 4 lan ports, wifi
2024-12-03T12:03:21 < c10ud> i see, then it just becomes a matter of how much you want to suffer with the configuration
2024-12-03T12:04:07 < mawk> if it's like a naked linux box and all you want is IPv4 NAT it's not very hard to configure
2024-12-03T12:04:17 < mawk> and if it's running openwrt it's even easier
2024-12-03T12:04:26 < mawk> if you know what you're doing
2024-12-03T12:04:53 < qyx> you have a whole web UI for config
2024-12-03T12:05:04 < qyx> no need to write a single line
2024-12-03T12:05:21 < qyx> look for mt7688 or ar9331 modules
2024-12-03T12:05:34 < c10ud> well i wrote microtik scripts for that, no big deal after all..
2024-12-03T12:05:47 < qyx> it is mikrotik
2024-12-03T12:05:49 < qyx> :p
2024-12-03T12:05:52 < c10ud> lol
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2024-12-03T12:07:54 < c10ud> https://mikrotik.com/product/rb450gx4 this is what I used, was pretty capable
2024-12-03T12:09:13 < qyx> all mikrotiks are the same firmware-wise,also note you cannot run mikrotik's firmware on openwrt SoMs
2024-12-03T12:09:34 < qyx> sometimes it is possible the other way around though
2024-12-03T12:11:37 < c10ud> the fact about it i didn't like was that the nvidia inside the lan had to orchestrate it's own multicast addressing (in case multiple stuff was present on the net outside the nat)
2024-12-03T12:12:13 < c10ud> and if microtik ever went rogue i was highly dependant on its features
2024-12-03T12:12:52 < c10ud> but reimplementing routing stuff in vhdl..not sure about that..unless maybe you just write down a restricted and clear set of rules...
2024-12-03T12:23:40 < qyx> so just use PIM to do your multicast routing instead of scripts?
2024-12-03T12:24:37 < qyx> if mikrotik went rogue, you just use some other router
2024-12-03T12:31:39 < c10ud> i remember looking into that at the time, yes, but either i couldnt' get it working or the simpler rules got me easily
2024-12-03T12:31:45 < c10ud> happy not my issue anymore
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2024-12-04T01:34:38 < qyx> devicetree pros
2024-12-04T01:35:52 < zyp> no
2024-12-04T01:35:56 < zyp> sup?
2024-12-04T01:36:46 < qyx> my u-boot ums not working
2024-12-04T01:36:58 < qyx> but I am not ready to share my pain yet
2024-12-04T01:37:37 < qyx> ums 0 mmc 0 says Couldn't init USB controller.
2024-12-04T01:38:06 < qyx> usb tree says both controllers are ehci hosts
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2024-12-04T02:15:27 < qyx> hello nightkaki
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2024-12-04T02:50:09 < fenugrec> Anyone want to trade problems ? I'm troubleshooting a segfault with gdb, but gdb itself segfaults
2024-12-04T02:51:55 < fenugrec> it turns out "gdb --args gdb --args <realtarget" doesn't really work. Maybe it's for the best
2024-12-04T02:56:11 < zyp> haha
2024-12-04T02:56:13 < nomorekaki> what have you done
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2024-12-04T02:59:58 < fenugrec> ok, this is out of control : term 1, start "gdb --args realtarget", term 2, "gdb -p PID_of_gdb", and I've now managed to crash that second gdb
2024-12-04T03:01:59 < nomorekaki> it's a bug
2024-12-04T03:02:41 < fenugrec> on 3 levels
2024-12-04T03:04:53 < nomorekaki> how fresh is gdb?
2024-12-04T03:05:25 < nomorekaki> can you find bugtracker for the version you have
2024-12-04T03:08:08 < fenugrec> dunno, 15.2, should be fairly fresh. I think there's a race condition in tab-completion
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2024-12-04T03:52:38 < fenugrec> so today, my music player is acting up, 3d printer is shitting the bed 1h into a print (twice in a row), some other software is crashing, and gdb is crashing while investigating that. Enough for today
2024-12-04T03:53:55 < qyx> same here, openwrt trouble, e-boot not updating, TIL emmc boot partitions are write protected by default, u-boot not switching usb controller to peripheral mode
2024-12-04T03:55:25 < qyx> now I found out my androidz are 0% because wife unplugged the charger to use the socket for christmas lights
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2024-12-04T12:20:50 < BrainDamage> should've used the phone as xmas lights
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2024-12-04T18:44:19 < catphish> for some reason my G030 SPI seems to be stuck in 16 bit mode. not sure what particular kind of idiot i'm being. i've done nothing to ask it to send 16 bits
2024-12-04T18:45:09 < catphish> oooh, saying it out loud makes me remember why this happens
2024-12-04T18:47:31 < catphish> it's most offensive. if you set the SPI length to 8 bits and then do a 16 bit access to DR, it sends 16 bits anyway
2024-12-04T18:53:43 < catphish> it's not even the first time that has cost me several hours of confusion
2024-12-04T18:55:31 < nomorekaki> #rubberduck32
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2024-12-04T19:43:50 < zyp> catphish, it's because it's got a FIFO and you can push multiple bytes into the FIFO at once
2024-12-04T19:44:14 < zyp> been there, done that :)
2024-12-04T19:52:59 < jpa-> i wonder if it still has the bug that if you have enable bit set and change settings, you get weirdo frames
2024-12-04T19:54:04 < zyp> probably, been there, done that too
2024-12-04T19:54:28 < zyp> and also the bug where it fucks up if you don't have SCK GPIO speed set to high
2024-12-04T20:06:29 < catphish> don't think i've ever done those two fortunately
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2024-12-04T21:05:11 < Noxz> figured out my "mangled" vector table issue w/ stm32f767.. nDUALBOOT option byte was unset, and thus DUALBOOT was enabled.. simply setting this option byte allows proper fetching of uploaded code's vector table on power up
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2024-12-04T21:15:10 < ventYl> zyp: do you think it is possible to hijack method call to the extent, the syntax will actually perform something completely different?
2024-12-04T21:31:25 < zyp> ventYl, what do you mean?
2024-12-04T21:32:38 < ventYl> zyp: I have a RPC mechanism with "traits" support in the RTOS. "class" has a vtable, so you can call object->method(object) with some syntactic sugar, while still retain type safety.
2024-12-04T21:33:23 < ventYl> the question is, if you can hijact object->method() C++ syntax in order to convert it to the way how the syscall implementing the above ^^ works
2024-12-04T21:33:33 < ventYl> without a lot of runtime overhead
2024-12-04T21:35:01 < ventYl> the goal is to switch address space back and forth while entering / leaving that method
2024-12-04T21:37:29 < zyp> how do you imagine it'll work?
2024-12-04T21:37:51 < zyp> patch the vtable to pass every call through a trampoline?
2024-12-04T21:42:03 < ventYl> I'd deal with it at syntax level during compile time. That's how type safety is injected into pure-C version of this bestiality, while also granting runtime polymorphism
2024-12-04T21:55:52 < mawk> you can do it fairly easily if you use clang
2024-12-04T21:56:00 < mawk> just make a clang plugin that does that
2024-12-04T21:56:06 < mawk> or a transpiler
2024-12-04T21:56:18 < mawk> it's very easy to manipulate the AST with libclang
2024-12-04T21:56:20 < mawk> even from python
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2024-12-04T22:01:49 < ventYl> eh, no
2024-12-04T22:02:02 < ventYl> that would turn out to be bestiality similar to what I've done with C
2024-12-04T22:03:35 < mawk> why
2024-12-04T22:03:44 < mawk> that's syntax level during compile time
2024-12-04T22:03:51 < mawk> but it's how you're supposed to do it
2024-12-04T22:03:57 < mawk> making a plugin for the compiler
2024-12-04T22:04:02 < mawk> it can't be any better
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2024-12-04T22:23:30 < ventYl> mawk: I guess that you won't go far with custom compiler plugin.
2024-12-04T22:27:15 < mawk> why?
2024-12-04T22:27:55 < mawk> you can make any syntactic sugar you want
2024-12-04T22:28:06 < mawk> just go through the AST and convert the method calls to something else
2024-12-04T22:28:15 < mawk> you can do literally anything
2024-12-04T22:31:07 < ventYl> up until you are asked to qualify it
2024-12-04T22:31:15 < Steffanx> literally anything. :o
2024-12-04T22:31:21 < ventYl> or to use qualified / certified toolchain
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2024-12-04T23:12:03 < mawk> this is a step before compilation ventYl 
2024-12-04T23:12:08 < mawk> you can use the toolchain you want afterwards
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2024-12-04T23:15:55 < bitmask> hi hi
2024-12-04T23:44:49 < Steffanx> I blame you bitmask 😋
2024-12-04T23:45:49 < bitmask> i'll take it
2024-12-04T23:45:53 < bitmask> what did I do
2024-12-04T23:46:06 < Steffanx> I ordered an M4 Mac mini. But I'll return it because it's humming/buzzing. Also the audio out is doing it sometimes. 
2024-12-04T23:46:21 < bitmask> weird
2024-12-04T23:46:24 < bitmask> that sucks
2024-12-04T23:46:33 < bitmask> I'm still 3+ weeks away from ordering my mbp
2024-12-04T23:46:44 < Steffanx> Not actually. Apparently it's a thing
2024-12-04T23:46:53 < bitmask> on a side note, my credit score shot up real high so I should be able to get the apple card with 0% financing for a year
2024-12-04T23:47:19 < bitmask> lame, whats humming? the psu?
2024-12-04T23:47:57 < Steffanx> Yeah, even when it's in sleep and/or powered down 
2024-12-04T23:48:22 < Steffanx> Connecting a screen (dp or HDMI) makes it even worse
2024-12-04T23:48:35 < Steffanx> Anyway not acceptable for a device this expensive 
2024-12-04T23:48:40 < bitmask> how did that pass qc and even development
2024-12-04T23:48:44 < bitmask> def not
2024-12-04T23:49:05 < Steffanx> I blame you since I ordered it after you mentioned you ordering :P
2024-12-04T23:49:17 < bitmask> its not an everyone has it thing is it? can you just return it and get a working one?
2024-12-04T23:49:47 < bitmask> I blame me too, I'm sorry Steffanx 
2024-12-04T23:49:50 < Steffanx> I'll return it, wait a little longer and see how many more will complain 
2024-12-04T23:50:29 < Steffanx> It's certainly a thing 
2024-12-04T23:51:09 < Steffanx> Not for everyone though. But not everyone has my "this annoys me" hearing 
2024-12-04T23:51:15 < bitmask> yea but theres a difference between a 100% thing and even an 80% thing
2024-12-04T23:51:16 < bitmask> ok
2024-12-04T23:51:25 < bitmask> thats true
2024-12-04T23:51:40 < bitmask> just get older real fast
2024-12-04T23:51:55 < bitmask> its worth it, i promise
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2024-12-05T01:03:33 < qyx> do I understand it right that for 3v3 emmc signalling I can do 52 MHz DDR?
2024-12-05T01:03:53 < qyx> HS-DDR
2024-12-05T01:07:18 < qyx> ok it is running in DDR 52MHz 8 bits
2024-12-05T01:07:39 < qyx> so why the top speed is 38 MB/s then when the datasheet says 90+
2024-12-05T01:08:08 < qyx> write performance is ok, 14 MB/s in the ds, about 12.5 MB/s measured
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2024-12-05T02:06:50 < octorian> So while I wasn't paying attention, it seems like TinyUSB now has USB Host support for the stm32 (dwc2 specifically).
2024-12-05T02:07:42 < octorian> Which now makes me wonder how TinyUSB compares to CherryUSB for the host side of things.  (since I'm currently quite deep into using CherryUSB for a project, because TinyUSB didn't used to be an option)
2024-12-05T02:16:59 < octorian> Looks like the code only started to appear in October, so its pretty new.
2024-12-05T02:19:40 < octorian> Probably best to stick with CherryUSB for now, if only because they've had support for a lot longer and I'm already quite familiar with hacking around it to handle edge cases for my needs.  But TinyUSB is still worth keeping an eye on here.
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2024-12-05T14:16:24 < machinehum> Does anyone know anything about the Chinese company that makes pin/pin inductors to replace coilcraft parts?
2024-12-05T14:17:06 < machinehum> I seem to rememeber once I just changed a few letters in the CC PN and got something that was like 1/10 the cost and had similar specs
2024-12-05T14:17:51 < qyx> what is a pin pin inductor?
2024-12-05T14:18:21 < machinehum> Sorry, like pin to pin compatible
2024-12-05T14:18:33 < machinehum> Fits in the same spot
2024-12-05T14:18:46 < machinehum> Pin/pin in kinda a retard way of saying that when talking about inductors
2024-12-05T14:18:49 < machinehum> is
2024-12-05T14:19:06 < qyx> idk about chinese but I am using ferrocore
2024-12-05T14:19:10 < qyx> and feryster (poland)
2024-12-05T14:23:56 < machinehum> ferrocore rings a bell
2024-12-05T14:25:57 < qyx> they are good
2024-12-05T14:26:02 < qyx> feryster is mostly wire-wound
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2024-12-05T14:26:08 < qyx> transformers, toroids and such
2024-12-05T15:00:45 < machinehum> qyx: Is there skiing in your country?
2024-12-05T15:03:02 < qyx> no snow yet
2024-12-05T15:03:40 < qyx> but austria is better and most of the time cheaper
2024-12-05T15:04:04 < qyx> also I recommend you to try livigno, it should be close to you
2024-12-05T15:04:43 < qyx> there are discounts this/next week (before christmas), around 300€ for 6 days or so incl. accomodation
2024-12-05T15:08:23 < machinehum> Cheaper? Really?
2024-12-05T15:09:40 < machinehum> livigno... that looks awesome
2024-12-05T15:10:11 < machinehum> Some friends were coming over in Feb to ski in Georgia, but seems things have gotten a little messy there
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2024-12-05T16:33:36 < BrainDamage> wait, where are you that livigno is close?
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2024-12-05T16:37:29 < machinehum> close ish
2024-12-05T16:37:32 < machinehum> Basel, ch
2024-12-05T16:38:09 < BrainDamage> wouldn't st.moritz be closer then?
2024-12-05T16:38:52 < machinehum> yuh
2024-12-05T16:39:16 < machinehum> Engelberg is like 1.5hrs away
2024-12-05T16:39:18 < machinehum> As well
2024-12-05T16:39:31 < machinehum> But Italy is cheap
2024-12-05T16:39:47 < BrainDamage> oh yeah, I guess cost of life difference
2024-12-05T16:40:03 < BrainDamage> it's not as big as livigno, but chiavenna is decent too
2024-12-05T16:40:22 < BrainDamage> still on the border, more central
2024-12-05T16:41:13 < qyx> st. moritz is be good too I heard 
2024-12-05T16:41:24 < qyx> but i was in livigno two or three times so I recommended
2024-12-05T16:41:45 < qyx> s/be//
2024-12-05T16:41:59 < machinehum> st. moritz is like 5hrs away, livigno is like 5.5
2024-12-05T16:42:13 < BrainDamage> yeah, they are pretty close to eachother
2024-12-05T16:42:36 < machinehum> oh wait, I've actually been to livigno
2024-12-05T16:42:39 < BrainDamage> 2.5h drive here
2024-12-05T16:42:51 < qyx> also there is that claustrophobic tunnel with 3m dia
2024-12-05T16:42:59 < machinehum> I rode my bike from Zernez to Livigno last summer
2024-12-05T16:43:03 < machinehum> wtf
2024-12-05T16:43:11 < machinehum> I would call that a mine shaft
2024-12-05T16:43:39 < BrainDamage> that's what you get when you have infrastructure that's literally millennias old
2024-12-05T16:43:50 < machinehum> So if the bus from Zernez to Livigno is the same I took when I was down there
2024-12-05T16:43:52 < BrainDamage> and nobody wants to improve it
2024-12-05T16:43:54 < machinehum> The back wheels turn lol
2024-12-05T16:43:59 < machinehum> BrainDamage: Yeah fair play
2024-12-05T16:44:28 < BrainDamage> it could be improved, but then you'd have to close it, and people rely on it
2024-12-05T16:44:45 < qyx> isn't zernez to livigno over pretty high mountains?
2024-12-05T16:45:00 < BrainDamage> paradoxically, if it was made fresh new, nobody would be pissed it was closed, so you can do it leasurly
2024-12-05T16:45:25 < machinehum> Yeah it was like a mega tight mountain pass, so they had this front+real steering bus which was a first for me
2024-12-05T16:45:30 < qyx> not sure if theres enough space for portals on either side
2024-12-05T16:45:32 < BrainDamage> it is
2024-12-05T16:51:08 < BrainDamage> driving on those roads is pretty maddening too fwiw
2024-12-05T16:51:39 < BrainDamage> after the 10th or so hairpin bend, you start want to murder someone
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2024-12-05T20:29:37 < ds2> what kind off tunnel is that 10ft tunnel? Pedestrian or car?
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2024-12-05T20:39:00 < qyx> single lane car
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2024-12-06T05:16:08 < fenugrec> I just shutdown, probably for the last time, my T61 that I've used extensively since 2008 (although as a workshop machine since 2020...) Makes me wonder how many hours of uptime it ran. Everything on it still works, many keys are worn smooth
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2024-12-06T10:17:00 < machinehum> coilcraft is mega expensive
2024-12-06T10:17:37 < machinehum> I can't justify 10$ worth of inductors on a 30$ board heh
2024-12-06T10:17:53 < machinehum> I just buy some flux leaking high DCR chinese bullshit
2024-12-06T10:37:10 < jpa-> a little bit of saturation never hurt anyone
2024-12-06T10:38:55 < machinehum> cjiang (Changjiang Microelectronics Tech)
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2024-12-06T10:39:10 < machinehum> 27mΩ
2024-12-06T10:39:12 < machinehum> hmm
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2024-12-06T13:51:18 < qyx> machinehum: what switcher/inductor?
2024-12-06T14:44:04 < machinehum> SNH.4020.TYB1R0MT00
2024-12-06T14:44:46 < machinehum> TPS62095RGTR
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2024-12-06T16:24:09 < qyx> weehee another INSAR satellite online
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2024-12-06T19:04:52 < fenugrec> ##stm32gpt, is there a good rule of thumb for luminous flux vs voltage for incandescent bulbs, it's 100+y old technology and I can't find an answer that covers a wide operating range (i.e. PWM dimming). wikiP says "light output proportional to V^3.4" but only near its rated voltage
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2024-12-06T19:18:43 < ColdKeyboard> I'm going insane here... on STM32L4P5CGTx I'm writting to flash. From 0x8020000 to 0x807F000 it works fine. But then at 0x8080000 I keep getting HAL_FLASH_ERROR_PGS, HAL_FLASH_ERROR_PROG and HAL_FLASH_ERROR_PGA errors
2024-12-06T19:19:19 < ColdKeyboard> Is this because I'm crossing to bank 2?
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2024-12-06T20:18:34 < jpa-> fenugrec: steal it from some random graph https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8ad78f1db574d0bee225293ff6573abf-pjlq
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2024-12-06T20:42:53 < fenugrec> jpa- good find. Wonder why it shows a bump around 8-9V
2024-12-06T20:46:46 < ColdKeyboard> jpa- you might have some suggestions for the L4 bootloader?
2024-12-06T20:47:18 < ColdKeyboard> For some reason when I reach 0x8080000, HAL_FLASH_ERROR_PGS, HAL_FLASH_ERROR_PROG and HAL_FLASH_ERROR_PGA errors appear and I have no clue where to start to look :\
2024-12-06T20:48:04 < ColdKeyboard> The exact same code works for flashing from 0x8020000 and up
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2024-12-06T21:08:24 < qyx> where does your code run from while flashing?
2024-12-06T21:14:47 < ColdKeyboard> It's running from bank1
2024-12-06T21:16:22 < ColdKeyboard> It looks like it's happening exactly on bank1 to bank2 boundary https://i.ibb.co/k6DVf10/image.png
2024-12-06T21:17:37 < ColdKeyboard> But I'm not sure why? I'm using HAL_FLASH_Program with FLASH_TYPEPROGRAM_DOUBLEWORD :\
2024-12-06T21:17:56 < ColdKeyboard> How do you specify/enable flashing to bank2?
2024-12-06T21:18:48 < ColdKeyboard> For flash erase I can specify which bank and which page, but HAL_FLASH_Program does not have that... I thought it would calculate that for you
2024-12-06T21:53:49 < jpa-> fenugrec: probably just measurement inaccuracy and bezier smoothing
2024-12-06T21:55:24 < jpa-> ColdKeyboard: which part number? (full)
2024-12-06T21:57:32 < jpa-> ah, STM32L4P5CGTx
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2024-12-06T22:04:12 < jpa-> ColdKeyboard: has it successfully erased the destination page?
2024-12-06T22:04:54 < jpa-> the page numbering differs on whether the option bit DB1M is set
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2024-12-06T22:09:28 < jpa-> ColdKeyboard: if you are using HAL_FLASHEx_Erase(), make sure you have set the bank parameter correctly
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2024-12-06T22:46:31 < ColdKeyboard> jpa- The flash erase works great because I use the address and then calculate bank and page number
2024-12-06T22:46:57 < ColdKeyboard> But the issue is flashing. As soon as flashing transitions from bank1 to bank2, it fails :\
2024-12-06T22:47:17 < ColdKeyboard> And with `HAL_FLASH_Program` there is no place to specify bank, it's just start address and size
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2024-12-06T23:36:10 < ColdKeyboard> Huh... so for some reason it's refusing to wipe the bank2
2024-12-06T23:45:06 < fenugrec> are they doing something silly like separate RCC/power domains for bank2 ?
2024-12-06T23:45:14 < fenugrec> not familiar with L4
--- Day changed Sat Dec 07 2024
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2024-12-07T02:26:40 < ColdKeyboard> I couldn't find anything in the ref manual...
2024-12-07T02:27:21 < ColdKeyboard> It says that when in dual-bank, I should wipe page 0-127 to wipe entire bank 2
2024-12-07T02:27:49 < ColdKeyboard> But when I dod that and try to read back that area with JLink, it shows that it's not blank :\
2024-12-07T02:49:15 < ColdKeyboard> How can I check what is the default option bytes and the DB1M value on my device?
2024-12-07T02:58:02 < ColdKeyboard> So I just tried running this code -> https://pastebin.com/bAdDLY8K and it does not wipe anything on bank to (0x8080000 and after)
2024-12-07T03:21:16 < ColdKeyboard> Ok something weird is going on in this code... Some code paths lock flash after operation is done but don't always unlock (just assume previous function left it unlocked).
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2024-12-07T04:02:38 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.poast.org/pic/orig/media%2FGdQ1GsiWUAAE-Kq.jpg
2024-12-07T04:03:16 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.poast.org/pic/orig/media%2FGLhXtGHW4AA74gb.jpg
2024-12-07T04:05:59 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.poast.org/pic/orig/media%2FGdQyRrZXEAACDFm.jpg
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2024-12-07T04:24:04 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.poast.org/pic/orig/media%2FGeBv0zBWIAARvNn.jpg
2024-12-07T04:24:41 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.poast.org/pic/orig/media%2FGeBv0zBWUAAF_xj.jpg
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2024-12-07T09:13:24 < jpa-> "erase works great except flash is not empty" :)
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2024-12-07T10:17:48 < karlp> machinehum: changjiang is good enough to sell on mouser :)
2024-12-07T10:46:38 < machinehum> karlp: hmm
2024-12-07T10:46:41 < machinehum> Interesting
2024-12-07T10:46:52 < machinehum> Figured they would be just lcsc material
2024-12-07T11:05:23 < karlp> they're a totally solid generic inductor maker :)
2024-12-07T11:05:41 < karlp> datasheets are decent, prices are good, range is fine.
2024-12-07T11:19:41 < machinehum> Price is right
2024-12-07T11:20:18 < machinehum> Have zero idea why I started with the Gucci part then I looked in the TI datasheet and that's what they suggested
2024-12-07T11:20:34 < machinehum> Guess I was in a rush
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2024-12-07T12:10:14 < qyx> machinehum: suitable inductir for that switcher is 0.30, is it much?
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2024-12-07T13:45:42 < machinehum> qyx: 0.3 what?
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2024-12-07T13:57:07 < qyx> eurobucks
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2024-12-07T14:14:33 < machinehum> 0.3€ could be fine if you have a part suggestion
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2024-12-07T15:08:29 < qyx> bourns has some, I am using srn8040 which is probably overkill
2024-12-07T15:09:11 < qyx> srn6045 too
2024-12-07T15:10:10 < qyx> and for tps62825 I am using dfe2016
2024-12-07T15:10:16 < qyx> but thats for 2A max
2024-12-07T15:12:11 < qyx> SRN8040-1R0Y is 10 mohm and 0.224€
2024-12-07T15:12:55 < qyx> SRN6045HA-1R0Y
2024-12-07T15:13:13 < qyx> too for 0.27€ /10pcs
2024-12-07T15:14:43 < qyx> DFE3225 are chip inductors, much worse DCR, but cheaper and half the size
2024-12-07T15:15:18  * qyx searches for his past experiences
2024-12-07T15:16:25 < qyx> never used TDK VLS6045EX-1R0N, but it has good params and is 0.179€/10
2024-12-07T15:17:00 < qyx> I can see many options to avoid CC or low quality stuff
2024-12-07T15:18:14 < qyx> oh and I used tajo-yuden ones too, NRS8030, they are even in kikecad iirc
2024-12-07T15:19:38 < qyx> ferrocore DJNR6045-1R0 | Tlmivka: drôtový; SMD; 1uH; Iprac: 6A; 18,2mΩ; ±30%; Isat: 8,5A
2024-12-07T15:19:53 < qyx> about 0.1€/100
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2024-12-07T15:34:46 < machinehum> Thanks
2024-12-07T15:34:54 < machinehum> I'll take a look though all these
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2024-12-09T10:49:45 < Laurenceb_> orbital sides
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2024-12-09T15:52:05 < jbo> hallo
2024-12-09T15:58:44 < zyp> god dag
2024-12-09T16:01:57 < machinehum> hoi
2024-12-09T16:04:26 < jbo> so I am gone for literally one week, and entire governments are faltering?
2024-12-09T16:04:30 < jbo> I guess I should stay home more.
2024-12-09T16:31:45 < jpa-> is switzerland a dictatorship yet?
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2024-12-09T17:46:24 < Steffanx> Why didn't you tell us you were gone jbo? 😡
2024-12-09T17:55:30 < jbo> I didn't want you to miss me
2024-12-09T17:58:33 < specing> is it just me or are they taking an unusual amount of time for IFT7?
2024-12-09T18:00:05 < specing> they need to step up their cadence if they wanna achieve the schedule that they and NASA set for themselves
2024-12-09T18:06:32 < specing> oops wrong chan
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2024-12-09T22:02:51 < jbo> I too like to pretend that I have other people to talk to in a different channel
2024-12-09T22:03:04 < jbo> oops wrong chan
2024-12-09T22:03:50 < qyx> we are very supportive group, you can talk to us
2024-12-09T22:17:00 < Steffanx> We can no longer expect jbo to be here, since he leaves without notification.
2024-12-09T22:26:09 < jbo> I'll always carry you in my heart
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2024-12-10T09:18:13 < dereck35> Hola
2024-12-10T09:24:48 < qyx> ehlo
2024-12-10T09:25:22 < dereck35> Spanish?
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2024-12-10T11:04:38 < karlp> I mean, you can speak it, no guarantees anyone else will :)
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2024-12-10T15:03:53 < Steffanx> Is jbo still here?
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2024-12-10T18:29:09 < jbo> yes
2024-12-10T18:36:02 < jpa-> no, i ordered jbo to be shipped into finland
2024-12-10T18:36:11 < jpa-> then i'll make him skate across the lake
2024-12-10T18:36:24 < jpa-> and swim in the water
2024-12-10T18:46:16 < qyx> is that how finish torture looks like?
2024-12-10T18:50:00 < jpa-> no, that's finnish health regime
2024-12-10T19:03:13 < qyx> how are your leaf springs jpa- 
2024-12-10T19:03:23 < qyx> were they good quality?
2024-12-10T19:03:31 < jpa-> yeah, they have been working perfectly :)
2024-12-10T19:03:48 < jpa-> (1 has been working, 1 is still as spare)
2024-12-10T19:04:36 < jbo> are we talking BQ?
2024-12-10T19:04:59 < jpa-> no, YZ
2024-12-10T19:07:54 < jbo> awww :(
2024-12-10T19:35:20 < ds2> a
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2024-12-10T21:09:52 < Steffanx> im glad to hear you're still in our midst jbo 
2024-12-10T21:11:14 < jbo> of course!
2024-12-10T21:11:16 < jbo> likewise
2024-12-10T21:49:20 < catphish> so, i have a STM32G030, it has 32KB flash, with a 1,000 cycle endurance. if i wanted to, can i write all 32,768 of those bits separately in the same "cycle", giving me 32 million total writes?
2024-12-10T21:54:12 < qyx> it has 32*8 bits
2024-12-10T21:54:28 < qyx> basically yes because flash is rated in program/erase cycles
2024-12-10T21:54:43 < qyx> but beware of ecc
2024-12-10T21:55:05 < fenugrec> that's sortof how I understand it, but the smallest writeable is probably larger than a byte. Most likely 32bit
2024-12-10T21:55:34 < fenugrec> *looks like that would be 64-bits on G0. Check the RM for details
2024-12-10T21:55:37 < qyx> yes but you can write the same value and clear single bit only
2024-12-10T21:56:00 < qyx> if the smakles is defined as 64 bits, it most probably has ecc
2024-12-10T21:56:09 < fenugrec> not on G0 "Programming a previously programmed address with a non-zero data is not allowed. Any such attempt sets PROGERR flag of the FLASH status register (FLASH_SR)."
2024-12-10T21:56:12 < catphish> sorry, miscalculation, let me rephrase, if it's 32kB, that's 262,144 bits, so can i wtite 262,144 x 1000 times?
2024-12-10T21:56:19 < qyx> in that case you can't write individual bits
2024-12-10T21:57:01 < qyx> fenugrec: read with understanding
2024-12-10T21:57:12 < qyx> you can write zero but you can't write nonzero
2024-12-10T21:57:22 < qyx> that's how flash works
2024-12-10T21:57:43 < qyx> oh
2024-12-10T21:58:03 < qyx> yeah ecc, you can either program arbitrary value or zero
2024-12-10T21:58:24 < catphish> oh, is there a checksum per block?
2024-12-10T21:58:37 < catphish> that would definely prevent what i'm asking to do
2024-12-10T21:58:45 < qyx> yes which is also only zero-bit-writablelp
2024-12-10T21:59:04 < catphish> so all-zero is okay, because presumably the checksum is also all zeros
2024-12-10T21:59:06 < fenugrec> sounds like you want eeprom or fram
2024-12-10T21:59:24 < catphish> but any other vaue can only be written once per block?
2024-12-10T21:59:28 < qyx> so utilizing such functionality would require finding a data|checksum combination which flip bits to zero only
2024-12-10T21:59:53 < catphish> so, how do i fnd the minimum writabeable block size?
2024-12-10T22:00:01 < qyx> in the ds
2024-12-10T22:00:25 < qyx> why do you ask? do you need a counter?
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2024-12-10T22:01:31 < catphish> qyx: i have a device where i want to store a single bit in a nonvolatile way, but i want a high number of cycles in a cheap device
2024-12-10T22:02:09 < qyx> a battery powered d flip-flop?
2024-12-10T22:02:34 < catphish> there are options, but since i already have a G030 with flash, it makes more sense to just use that
2024-12-10T22:02:48 < qyx> do you use rtc?
2024-12-10T22:02:52 < catphish> nope
2024-12-10T22:03:01 < qyx> do you have a battery?
2024-12-10T22:03:04 < catphish> no
2024-12-10T22:03:09 < qyx> thats sad
2024-12-10T22:03:10 < fenugrec> i2c/spi eeprom is pennies in any kind of volume
2024-12-10T22:03:36 < catphish> fenugrec: do those have much higher write cycles than flash?
2024-12-10T22:03:49 < catphish> i *could* add any of these things, but i suspect i don't need to
2024-12-10T22:04:04 < qyx> fram is expensive
2024-12-10T22:04:10 < qyx> single wire eeprom would do
2024-12-10T22:04:20 < qyx> usually in the 1M to 10M ranhe
2024-12-10T22:04:22 < fenugrec> first one I checked says "More than 4 million Write cycles"
2024-12-10T22:05:01 < catphish> fenugrec: that's enugh write cycles :) 1,000 is not, but i suspect if i write each byte of the flash individually, i'll be fine
2024-12-10T22:05:10 < catphish> i just need to know how little i can write at once
2024-12-10T22:05:21 < fenugrec> eeprom is usually byte-addressable in small densities
2024-12-10T22:06:47 < fenugrec> or just do things like in the 90's, battery-backed RAM for everything (including firmware, like I've seen more than once !)
2024-12-10T22:07:01 < catphish> "The Flash memory is organized as 72-bit-wide memory cells (64 bits plus 8 ECC bits)"
2024-12-10T22:08:07 < catphish> so the answer to my question is 32KB / 64 bits = 4096 blocks
2024-12-10T22:08:11 < qyx> lol a latching relay
2024-12-10T22:08:19 < catphish> qyx: ugh don't get me started
2024-12-10T22:08:45 < qyx> how long do you expect it to stay unpowered?
2024-12-10T22:08:55 < catphish> my board has a latching relay, this flash bit is there to remember the state of that relay
2024-12-10T22:09:02 < qyx> lol
2024-12-10T22:09:09 < qyx> can't you read it?
2024-12-10T22:09:40 < qyx> or have *two* latching relays
2024-12-10T22:09:43 < catphish> but... the output of the latching relay is high voltage, and i can't find one in a sane form factor with a secondary pole isolated from the primary one
2024-12-10T22:09:45 < fenugrec> add a second relay as a huge mechanical flipflop, heh
2024-12-10T22:10:22 < catphish> two latching relays would work
2024-12-10T22:10:25 < catphish> but... yeah no
2024-12-10T22:10:33 < qyx> is it single coil type?
2024-12-10T22:10:42 < fenugrec> a cr2032 is probably cheaper than an extra relay
2024-12-10T22:10:53 < qyx> bipolar single coil or unipolar double coil?
2024-12-10T22:11:36 < catphish> qyx: i have a couple of boards on my desk. one has a non latching relay, the other has a single coil bipolar latching relay
2024-12-10T22:11:40 < qyx> depending on the mechanical construction you could probably measure the inductance to determine the position
2024-12-10T22:12:07 < catphish> what i really want is a latching relay with a feedback contact
2024-12-10T22:12:13 < catphish> but... i just can't find one
2024-12-10T22:12:22 < qyx> as simple as applying a voltage while observing the current rise with a timer
2024-12-10T22:13:26 < catphish> the use case here is a very simple remote controled lighting relay. i want it to persist its state when powered down, and know that state
2024-12-10T22:13:57 < catphish> there are a ton of ways to design this
2024-12-10T22:14:04 < catphish> and i'm a little overwhelmed by choice :)
2024-12-10T22:14:35 < catphish> the simplest / ideal way is a physical latching relay with a way to sense the physical position
2024-12-10T22:14:45 < catphish> but i can't source such a thing, so the alternatives are various
2024-12-10T22:15:05 < fenugrec> well there are DPDT latching relays, but maybe not with your voltage ratings
2024-12-10T22:16:19 < catphish> needs to be 400V, and while not technically needed, i would prever that the second pole (for feedback to the MCU) be 2000V isolated from the first one
2024-12-10T22:17:00 < fenugrec> ok, then big relay + dpdt latching relay
2024-12-10T22:17:40 < catphish> with 2 relays, the latching relay dosn't need ot be double pole at all
2024-12-10T22:17:50 < catphish> since it's only being used as a memory
2024-12-10T22:18:41 < catphish> i'm very likely going to settle on the simplest possible design. one non-latching relay, with the state stored in flash
2024-12-10T22:19:35 < catphish> based on my chip having 4,096 blocks, and 1,000 erase cycles, i can do 4 million writes, which will be fine
2024-12-10T22:19:38 < fenugrec> fair. can you have your relay then, and an opto for feedback. This has the advantage that if you  lose power mid-transition, you can always know its true state
2024-12-10T22:20:25 < catphish> yeah, my board that has the latching relay has an opto for feedback, so that's an option that can work
2024-12-10T22:20:56 < catphish> but i think it might be a needlessly complicated design
2024-12-10T22:21:26 < catphish> i do like the latching relay, as it consumes no power regardess of state
2024-12-10T22:21:58 < catphish> so, the simplest possible efficient design is a 2-coil latching relay, with its state remembered by flash
2024-12-10T22:22:43 < qyx> what are you switching?
2024-12-10T22:22:48 < qyx> car battery?
2024-12-10T22:23:07 < catphish> 230VAC house lighting
2024-12-10T22:23:48 < catphish> this is the setup: https://i.imgur.com/r9WbXRg.jpeg
2024-12-10T22:24:26 < catphish> one board has a 230V relay and is powered by 230VAC, the other is obviously ethernet
2024-12-10T22:25:23 < catphish> the idea is the light can be switched by a physical switch (low voltage switch, via the MCU), or remotely by RF from internet
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2024-12-10T22:28:28 < BrainDamage> there's existing devices that do exactly that
2024-12-10T22:28:31 < fenugrec> maybe a supercap can be enough for power outages... if it runs out, just pulse everything to Off ? doesn't seem like a critical application
2024-12-10T22:29:21 < BrainDamage> they have a builtin relay, and a wifi or zigbee connection system, and can accept a standard mains switch/circuit to operate them
2024-12-10T22:29:53 < catphish> BrainDamage: yeah, there's a decent collection of wifi and zigbee devices that do this
2024-12-10T22:30:07 < catphish> BrainDamage: the reason this exists is because i wanted to try doing it with LoRa
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2024-12-11T12:32:11 < qyx> catphish: reading the last lines, I would just use a supercap and a flip flop, it is totally noncritical thing and if the power is out for very long, not switching the light on immediately is a feature
2024-12-11T12:32:24 < qyx> in industrial setups it is even a requirement
2024-12-11T12:32:45 < qyx> or supercap+rtc+backup register
2024-12-11T12:32:54 < ventYl> catphish: what about frams? From about a decade ago I remember that if you use voltage low enough, the write cycles limit is so high it becomes virtually infinite for all practical purposes. also, it is byte-writable.
2024-12-11T12:33:20 < ventYl> they are expensive per kB, yet if you need to write just a small amount of data, this should not be a concern here
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2024-12-11T14:53:35 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/0aiRk/Screenshot_2024-12-11_13-53-18.png
2024-12-11T14:53:37 < qyx> spot the bug
2024-12-11T14:53:44 < qyx> (hint: Q2)
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2024-12-11T15:11:33 < jpa-> just mount it upside down and rotated
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2024-12-11T17:07:13 < qyx> wife installed some hygge christmas lights in my nerd cave
2024-12-11T17:07:38 < zyp> ikea?
2024-12-11T17:07:41 < qyx> it is the only 2700K light I have here
2024-12-11T17:08:21 < qyx> no the company name reads "self import agencies, NL"
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2024-12-11T17:35:33 < fenugrec> I was thinking of something the other day, but didn't find many examples : serving a webUI requires beefy mcu and modern connectivity, but how about a text UI over a serial link? e.g. ncurses-based or similar; you get menus, dialog boxes, etc, and the only requirement is for the host machine to have a vt100/vt-whatever emulation
2024-12-11T17:39:51 < zyp> don't think I've seen much of that, but it doesn't really seem all that worthwhile
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2024-12-11T17:40:41 < zyp> nowadays you can do cloud-hosted webuis with local connectivity through webusb or webserial
2024-12-11T17:41:14 < zyp> and serving up an API over either of those sounds lighter than serving up a ncurses-style UI
2024-12-11T17:45:07 < fenugrec> doesnt your mcu still have to handle a huge stack of JS and html5 garbage though ?
2024-12-11T17:45:20 < zyp> no
2024-12-11T17:45:49 < zyp> webusb/webserial lets a webpage do arbitrary usb/serial comms with a local device
2024-12-11T17:46:13 < zyp> I just tested this: https://devanlai.github.io/webdfu/dfu-util/
2024-12-11T17:46:16 < zyp> seems to work well
2024-12-11T17:46:54 < fenugrec> oh right yes, I see. Yeah, things are definitely heading that way. I just despise web dev
2024-12-11T17:47:21 < zyp> same
2024-12-11T17:50:11 < zyp> you could define an API where the MCU sends a declarative UI in json or a binary equivalent, and then just have an entirely generic web frontend to it
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2024-12-11T18:03:05 < c10ud_> btw, you can just serve a few megs of javascript and have a cool ui, the rest is just, well, rest, so i doubt the mcu will have any issue
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2024-12-11T18:07:00 < zyp> that assumes you have a mcu with megs of storage and enough connectivity to run http
2024-12-11T18:08:19 < zyp> but yeah, a mid-range mcu with usb (emulated ethernet) and a spi flash for storage could do that easily enough
2024-12-11T18:30:23 < fenugrec> 'a few megs of js' heh that is exactly what I don't want to have to do, ever
2024-12-11T18:30:58 < zyp> as somebody hating webdev, I disagree
2024-12-11T18:31:48 < zyp> when I have to do webdev, I'd rather pull in a nice toolkit with readymade building blocks, piece them together and call it a day
2024-12-11T18:32:09 < fenugrec> wait I misread, thought c10ud meant 'from the mcu', missed the Rest part
2024-12-11T18:32:29 < zyp> yeah, from the mcu
2024-12-11T18:32:50 < zyp> this is the sort of shit I use when I have to do web: https://material.angular.io/
2024-12-11T18:34:02 < zyp> once you're done, you boil it down to a little blob consisting of a few static files that you have to serve up over http
2024-12-11T18:34:16 < zyp> and that's not hard to do for a mcu as long as you've got the storage
2024-12-11T18:48:29 < c10ud_> exactly
2024-12-11T18:49:34 < c10ud_> then the REST interface you implement 'manually', but (depending on your application) is just a slow interface running on http+json
2024-12-11T19:03:41 < fenugrec> (not quite what I was looking for, but neat : imgui with an ncurses 'output' driver; https://github.com/ggerganov/imtui)
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2024-12-11T19:12:16 < bitmask> Anyone familiar with MessagePack?
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2024-12-11T20:04:10 < qyx> fenugrec: I have a tree-structured CLI with features like graphs, etc
2024-12-11T20:04:20 < qyx> not really ncurses-like
2024-12-11T20:04:28 < qyx> but I don't have a use case for that
2024-12-11T20:04:41 < qyx> good CLI is better than arrowing through a menu
2024-12-11T20:05:33 < ventYl> you can take routerOS CLI as an example. they have all around CLI and then basically a GUI built around it
2024-12-11T20:05:48 < ventYl> the GUI is not the best though, some stuff has very weird representation in there
2024-12-11T20:06:07 < catphish> qyx: actually if i just use a non-latching relay, the memory is not really important at all, it can just come back from a power outage in the "off" state. the main reason for the memory was going to be so that if it was on, it knew it was on
2024-12-11T20:06:50 < qyx> yes I got inspired by routeros cli
2024-12-11T20:07:59 < qyx> catphish: oh I like removing bugs by removing features
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2024-12-11T20:09:03 < catphish> qyx: i think this is just an artifact of my requirements changing over time, and not quite deciding what combination will work best. originally the plan was going to be to couple a double throw relay with a physical double throw switch, so that both the physical switch *and* the relay were equally in control of the 230V circuit, the benefit was going to be that if the device fails, regardless of how it fails, the switch still works
2024-12-11T20:10:31 < catphish> the downside of this is that it *requires* a sense circuit to know the actual state of the output
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2024-12-11T20:11:30 < qyx> what about a current transformer?
2024-12-11T20:11:34 < catphish> i still quite like that version, that was prototype 1. prototype 2 goes in a different direction, uses a non-latching relay, and everything is conrolled by software
2024-12-11T20:11:51 < qyx> it is isolated and gives you the feedback when itmis important, that is when current runs
2024-12-11T20:12:06 < qyx> flows
2024-12-11T20:12:17 < catphish> qyx: a current transformer is cool, and could even give the product the benefit of doubling as a meter
2024-12-11T20:12:39 < catphish> the only downside is it can't detect of the circuit is "on" but open
2024-12-11T20:13:13 < qyx> true
2024-12-11T20:13:27 < catphish> qyx: my main worry about this whole setup is that the switch position doesn't reflect the state of the lamp, which personaly bugs me a little
2024-12-11T20:13:42 < catphish> but... having tested some momentary switches, i hate them even more
2024-12-11T20:14:29 < qyx> also true
2024-12-11T20:14:42 < qyx> I don't have wall switches here
2024-12-11T20:14:46 < fenugrec> ventYl routerOS: thanks for the ref. Yeah, done that before (tree-based CLI) in freediag, it's ~ok
2024-12-11T20:14:48 < qyx> still after 4 years
2024-12-11T20:15:06 < qyx> necause I am notmyet decided which kind is less bad
2024-12-11T20:15:11 < catphish> qyx: no wall switches?
2024-12-11T20:15:19 < fenugrec> qyx no switches, do you just screw in/out lightbulbs like a caveman ?
2024-12-11T20:16:04 < qyx> I have one nonlatching for test, in home assistant
2024-12-11T20:16:07 < qyx> I have one classic
2024-12-11T20:16:23 < qyx> a couple of switches directly on the cable hanging from the ceiling
2024-12-11T20:16:47 < qyx> some are just power cords I plug into a socket :p
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2024-12-11T20:17:02 < qyx> I want to test toich too
2024-12-11T20:17:04 < catphish> qyx: how do you control it?
2024-12-11T20:17:08 < fenugrec> wasn't it PaulFertser that also had an 'interesting' setup re wiring / lights
2024-12-11T20:17:10 < ds2> what about a E field sensor? that should detect if it is on
2024-12-11T20:17:45 < qyx> catphish: which one?
2024-12-11T20:18:30 < catphish> qyx: well, anything without a wall switch :) you did mention switches on handling ceiling cables, whish is... unusual
2024-12-11T20:18:51 < qyx> yes because this is a new house, still not finished
2024-12-11T20:19:38 < ds2> or can you parallel a small dummy load to sense things, i.e. a small LED from an optocoupler (fed via resistor + capacitor for current limiting)
2024-12-11T20:20:19 < qyx> ok e-field may work actually
2024-12-11T20:21:47 < catphish> e-field is an interesting option, can one buy an off the shelf surface mounted AC detector?
2024-12-11T20:22:22 < catphish> otherwise, i just put a optoisolator in parallel with the load, which obviously works fine
2024-12-11T20:22:50 < ds2> I'd love to see part numbers for that...that are so many "voltage detector" probes on Amz, there must be a commodity sensor chip/module
2024-12-11T20:27:07 < catphish> qyx: how would you *want* wall switches to work?
2024-12-11T20:27:51 < catphish> i'm thinking two tactile push buttons might be nice, but that's not really smething you can buy, i'd have to design it from scratch
2024-12-11T20:27:59 < qyx> catphish: as non-latching full sized switches, push to on, push to off
2024-12-11T20:28:16 < qyx> long push to dim
2024-12-11T20:28:22 < catphish> qyx: *nod* i have a bunch of those on my desk
2024-12-11T20:28:30 < qyx> multi-push for special function
2024-12-11T20:28:30 < catphish> just full size with one position
2024-12-11T20:28:34 < qyx> like scenes
2024-12-11T20:28:46 < qyx> I am using legrand mosaic modules
2024-12-11T20:28:55 < catphish> the problem is... they have SUPER hard springs, they're hard to press
2024-12-11T20:29:18 < qyx> that's true, I don't like it
2024-12-11T20:29:28 < qyx> I may change the spring if even possible
2024-12-11T20:30:08 < catphish> i tried 3 vendors, all have insanely high force to press
2024-12-11T20:30:31 < catphish> way more than a normal latching switch
2024-12-11T20:30:40 < qyx> I can confirm that
2024-12-11T20:30:45 < qyx> tried legrand and schneider
2024-12-11T20:31:02 < catphish> i tried schnider and MK i think
2024-12-11T20:31:36 < qyx> so what will we do?
2024-12-11T20:32:31 < catphish> i would seriously consider designing my own, though i have no idea how you'd manufacture such a thing
2024-12-11T20:32:38 < catphish> but i can 3d print one
2024-12-11T20:33:33 < catphish> did i show you the board? https://i.imgur.com/Y2i10AE.jpeg
2024-12-11T20:34:18 < catphish> this is the non-latching version, it has L/N/L1 (HV AC) on one connector, and SW/GND/SW2 (3.3V DC) on the other connector
2024-12-11T20:34:57 < catphish> it will sit neatly behind whatever switch i find
2024-12-11T20:35:34 < fenugrec> pretty happy with these, myself https://s7d9.scene7.com/is/image/leviton/1451-2W_325?$262x262$
2024-12-11T20:35:46 < catphish> long term, i think it would be cool to reduce the size by switching to a non-isolated power supply, and building it into a grid form factor
2024-12-11T20:35:48 < fenugrec> about 2$ ea
2024-12-11T20:35:52 < qyx> catphish: I did this https://gitlab.com/iqyx/vy-pi-nac
2024-12-11T20:36:18 < catphish> qyx: got a photo / render?
2024-12-11T20:36:41 < catphish> or do i need to download and render it myself
2024-12-11T20:36:42 < qyx> most probably on the work pc
2024-12-11T20:36:49 < qyx> wsit
2024-12-11T20:37:35 < catphish> never mind, downloaded and rendered :)
2024-12-11T20:38:11 < catphish> well that's quite extensive
2024-12-11T20:38:56 < catphish> i'm just so torn between latching and non latching switches
2024-12-11T20:39:15 < catphish> the original scope of the project was for it to be totally transparent to non-technical users
2024-12-11T20:39:36 < catphish> so it would use normal latching switches, and just retrofit the ability to override them remotely
2024-12-11T20:40:02 < qyx> this is my exterior blinds controller https://bin.jvnv.net/file/anhDm/IMG_2024-07-12-00-16-05-719.jpg
2024-12-11T20:40:29 < catphish> that's remarkably similar to my board :)
2024-12-11T20:41:21 < catphish> i guess that's what you end up with when you combine a radio, a SMPS and some relays
2024-12-11T20:41:55 < fenugrec> I like those dense-pitch relays
2024-12-11T20:42:22 < catphish> yeah they're designed to be stacked like that
2024-12-11T20:43:31 < qyx> found a pic https://bin.jvnv.net/file/khYrG/IMG_2024-02-02-12-54-00-158.jpg
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2024-12-11T20:43:43 < catphish> cool
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2024-12-11T22:50:40 < upgrdman> i have a usb device (powered by 5V) and i need to generate clean +/- 3.3V rails for analog stuff. is there a common/simple solution for that? i might need about 100mA from each rail, so switch capacitor converters might not be good enough :(
2024-12-11T23:02:45 < qyx> lpf & high PSRR LDO?
2024-12-11T23:03:07 < qyx> I mean after the switching vreg
2024-12-11T23:05:04 < qyx> but I am curious why do you need the negative rail
2024-12-11T23:07:32 < upgrdman> bipolar op amps
2024-12-11T23:08:03 < upgrdman> was hoping there was a common part that would do 5V to +3.3V and -3.3V
2024-12-11T23:16:34 < qyx> yes there is, any buck switcher with a coupled inductor
2024-12-11T23:17:32 < qyx> maybe I am just blind but I don't see a reason for going bipolar except when your in/out needs to have zero-fixed dc-coupled center?
2024-12-11T23:18:51 < qyx> but anyway, switching vreg, multipole lpf, high psrr ldo works down to a nanovolt-level noise measured on the adc
2024-12-11T23:18:58 < upgrdman> yeah. i need to buffer bipolar analog voltages, with 1M to gnd.
2024-12-11T23:19:48 < upgrdman> basically a o-scope front end, but only about 10MHz bandwidth
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2024-12-11T23:31:49 < fenugrec> 100mA is some serious buffering 
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2024-12-11T23:33:47 < fenugrec> note, PSRR drops really fast vs frequency on LDOs, even worse than plain linears
2024-12-11T23:35:26 < fenugrec> although IIRC if you don't starve the LDO with the bare minimum of input voltage, it's not as bad maybe
2024-12-11T23:36:02 < qyx> yes thats why it needs a multipole lpf
2024-12-11T23:36:38 < fenugrec> agreed
2024-12-11T23:41:47 < fenugrec> there was an interesting LT appnote on supremely-low-noise switchers (with a fancy $$ LT part, ofc), let me find it again
2024-12-11T23:49:47 < fenugrec> eh, I think it was AN70 about the LT1533, but it's not as earth-shattering as I recalled  ~100uV (unsure over what BW)
2024-12-11T23:56:20 < ds2> qyx: have you eliminating a setup where you have the relays and just have manual override on the DC side of the relay?
2024-12-11T23:56:28 < ds2> eliminated
2024-12-11T23:56:47 < ds2> not so much a suggestion as wondering...looking at HA stuff my self
2024-12-11T23:58:54 < ds2> something like - 2 diodes OR'ing a signal from the smart side and a signal from a manual switch. and use a 3PDT relay with the extra pole providing the feedback
2024-12-11T23:59:49 < qyx> ds2: idk it is catphish's project
--- Day changed Thu Dec 12 2024
2024-12-12T00:00:02 < ds2> Oh, thought it was yours, sorry.
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2024-12-12T01:43:39 < qyx> why the hell H7 needs a 4u7 on the VDDLDO input
2024-12-12T01:43:45 < qyx> I have no 4u7 in the entire schematic
2024-12-12T01:44:02 < qyx> so it needs 100n, 1u, 2u2, 4u7 just for decoupling
2024-12-12T01:44:45 < qyx> huh it also needs 4u7 on VDD
2024-12-12T01:44:55 < qyx> replacing with 10u for greater good
2024-12-12T02:05:03 < bitmask> when you are waiting to get a new computer you really notice how slow your current one is...
2024-12-12T02:05:38 < bitmask> it shouldn't take 2-3 seconds for a password manager window to pop open
2024-12-12T02:09:00 < qyx> my password manager pops up really fast
2024-12-12T02:09:04 < qyx> $ time pass
2024-12-12T02:09:06 < qyx> real0m0.029s
2024-12-12T02:09:56 < bitmask> well in 2 weeks + shipping time it should be nice and fast
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2024-12-12T08:18:17 < jpa-> qyx: so put 2x 2u2
2024-12-12T08:18:28 < jpa-> but yeah, probably can just throw 10u everywhere
2024-12-12T08:18:40 < jpa-> if you use 0402 parts, then 2u2 4u7 and 10u are all the same anyway
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2024-12-12T08:59:50 < ds2> is the 4u7 ESR or inductive sensitive?
2024-12-12T09:04:18 < jpa-> ?
2024-12-12T09:04:36 < jpa-> usually they spec "as close as pins as possible"
2024-12-12T09:09:28 < ds2> for stability, some application require low ESR (no electroltic) or mini ESR so no ceramic, etc... similar restrictions for inductive
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2024-12-12T09:28:43 < qyx> jpa-: yeah same reasoning here
2024-12-12T09:29:53 < qyx> those are 0603 so there is a slight difference in capaciance
2024-12-12T09:31:30 < jpa-> 10u is a bit useless because it just gives higher inrush current while being about the same at the operating voltage
2024-12-12T09:35:57 < qyx> I don't even have them stocked
2024-12-12T09:36:13 < qyx> but this ethernet thing wants 10u/0603 for decoupling
2024-12-12T09:36:39 < qyx> I could probably go for 0805 and then use 4u7 only
2024-12-12T09:37:00 < qyx> either way 2u2 is the biggest 0603 I usually have
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2024-12-12T12:31:32 < machinehum> Very loosely speaking, if I smash python and pip on an embedded target should packages just run?
2024-12-12T12:31:43 < machinehum> It's not Armbian or anything all buildroot shit
2024-12-12T12:31:56 < machinehum> inb4 someone asks me why I would want to do that
2024-12-12T12:32:29 < machinehum> I'm aware some packages have system dependencies, which I would install
2024-12-12T12:32:46 < zyp> yes
2024-12-12T12:32:55 < machinehum> Cool
2024-12-12T12:33:40 < zyp> python packages come in both source and binary variants (sdist and wheel IIRC)
2024-12-12T12:34:39 < zyp> so for packages with non-python contents, if a wheel for your target platform doesn't already exist, it'll try building from the sdist
2024-12-12T12:36:00 < machinehum> It will use gcc to build? I'm assuming I need to take care of getting that
2024-12-12T12:36:05 < zyp> pure python packages will just work, packages that already have wheels for your platform should also just work, building from source works if you have the necessary compiler and libs
2024-12-12T12:36:22 < machinehum> gotcha
2024-12-12T12:37:30 < machinehum> Does it staticly link everything? Or will these wheels blow if I don't have libs?
2024-12-12T12:37:34 < machinehum> "generally speaking
2024-12-12T12:37:37 < machinehum> "
2024-12-12T12:40:10 < zyp> idk
2024-12-12T12:40:14 < machinehum> coo
2024-12-12T12:40:44 < machinehum> I'll give it a go
2024-12-12T12:41:24 < jpa-> checking e.g. numpy wheel, it seems to have only pretty common dependencies like libpthread
2024-12-12T12:41:58 < jpa-> but not fully static either
2024-12-12T12:42:44 < machinehum> Where can I look at the deps?
2024-12-12T12:43:46 < zyp> run ldd on the .so?
2024-12-12T12:44:59 < jpa-> create venv, install package into it with venv/bin/pip, then run   find -name '*.so*' | xargs ldd | grep '=>' | cut -d '(' -f 1 | sort | uniq
2024-12-12T12:45:31 < zyp> jpa-, leaving nothing to the imagination, eh
2024-12-12T12:45:55 < jpa-> i didn't tell how to create venv!
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2024-12-12T17:24:24 < fenugrec> lol wat, I'm looking for manuals for older Kikusui gear, and their website has... a corporate manga series ? https://kikusui.co.jp/comics_returns/  
2024-12-12T17:25:45 < jbo> welcome to .jp
2024-12-12T17:28:00 < zyp> nice
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2024-12-12T18:09:34 < qyx> machinehum: I would use openwrt if you insist on a buildroot based build system
2024-12-12T18:10:03 < qyx> you get software packages and a package manager for free
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2024-12-12T20:34:24 < jpa-> hmm, kicad is eating all my vram
2024-12-12T20:34:39 < jpa-> time to switch back to fallback graphics so that i can keep having 20 projects open
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2024-12-12T21:34:15 < Steffanx> Will you be alright jpa- ?
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2024-12-12T22:30:33 < jpa-> no, i think i'll get drunk on the booze jbo sent me, unless they confiscate it in the customs
2024-12-12T22:44:40 < machinehum> qyx: I think I'm happy with just using my buildroot config right now
2024-12-12T22:45:16 < machinehum> I assume I can just enable opkg and point my sources to openwrt's sources
2024-12-12T22:45:26 < machinehum> I don't need a package manager just yet
2024-12-12T22:45:49 < machinehum> If I'm honestly going to pivot, I'll take a serious look a armbian
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--- Day changed Fri Dec 13 2024
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2024-12-13T00:39:12 < qyx> re: recent talk about Zernez and stuff and speaking of jbo's booze, I remember seeing some czechs there with a car full of alcohol stopped at the border and unloading it to a cart of some sort
2024-12-13T00:39:20 < qyx> watched with fellow policemen
2024-12-13T00:40:04 < qyx> by
2024-12-13T01:09:37 < bitmask> oi oi oi
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2024-12-13T09:02:30 < jpa-> qyx: sounds like typical finnish vacation  https://images.cdn.yle.fi/image/upload/13-3-6746321
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2024-12-13T09:22:52 < qyx> lol
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2024-12-13T09:50:34 < zyp> IIRC we had carts like that when we went to finland too
2024-12-13T10:08:57 < machinehum> When I think of ch being expensive alchohol cost isn't the first thing that comes to mind
2024-12-13T10:09:09 < machinehum> But I'm a piece of shit and drink dog piss
2024-12-13T10:27:55 < qyx> yeah but livigno is zoll-free, so they probably bought everything
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2024-12-13T12:41:36 < jpa-> https://www.te.com/en/product-1-2328702-0.html  am i just stupid or is there really no 2d drawing of this?
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2024-12-13T12:57:34 < qyx> there is Customer View Model (dxf)
2024-12-13T12:57:42 < qyx> idk if 2d
2024-12-13T12:57:54 < qyx> yes they sa 2d in the filename, 3d in the section header
2024-12-13T13:28:07 < jpa-> yeah, though that seems to be "bring your own dimension lines" at least in librecad and inkscape :)
2024-12-13T13:28:22 < jpa-> but never mind, i'll just do it by sight from the 3d model
2024-12-13T13:29:17 < qyx> I didn't try in qcad but it should work
2024-12-13T13:44:33 < qyx> the worst week of the year is slowly starting, turning on my hygge lights, getting some vitamin D and "cooking" Vifon chicken soup
2024-12-13T13:44:46 < qyx> I can place my last mouser order this year
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2024-12-13T17:19:37 < catphish> my hardware is working, basic firmware installed, any time i send an ICMP ping to the ethernet bridge, it responds, and toggles all the lights, yay!
2024-12-13T17:23:18 < BrainDamage> next step is allowing unauthenticated irc access so that we can send goatse binary dumps to your lighting system
2024-12-13T17:28:37 < catphish> i just need to make a proper decision about how the physical switches and relay will work
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2024-12-13T18:29:14 < qyx> whoa UCG28826, Self-biased High Frequency QR Flyback Converter with Integrated GaN
2024-12-13T18:29:18 < qyx> october 2024
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2024-12-13T19:41:08 < BrainDamage> I hope the coil whine keep spelling canucks
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2024-12-13T20:13:45 < artok> jpa-: that is basic load from monthly boat trip
2024-12-13T20:14:17 < artok> alcohol amount.
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2024-12-13T20:35:59 < qyx> I have about 3 kg of silicagel from mouser orders alone
2024-12-13T20:36:32 < qyx> according to dates on the packaging, it is this year only
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2024-12-13T20:44:22 < mawk> I animated a thread wrapping around a yoyo: https://www.desmos.com/calculator/hkkofxznc1?lang=fr
2024-12-13T20:44:39 < mawk> or alternatively the involute of a circle
2024-12-13T20:55:34 < BrainDamage> there's some serious problem where you keep using the ui in french
2024-12-13T20:57:33 < mawk> lol
2024-12-13T20:57:53 < mawk> french is the perfect mathematical language
2024-12-13T21:01:33 < mawk> geogebra is much better tbh
2024-12-13T21:01:42 < mawk> it was annoying to draw this stuff
2024-12-13T21:02:00 < mawk> everything has to be parametric even just to make a segment or a circular arc
2024-12-13T21:04:27 < Steffanx> Je ne parle pas francais
2024-12-13T21:07:43 < mawk> there is no need to speak french
2024-12-13T21:07:52 < mawk> and it's français not francais
2024-12-13T21:08:17 < Steffanx> i know, but i don't know how to write the ,c on lunix
2024-12-13T21:08:53 < mawk> compose , c
2024-12-13T21:08:57 < mawk> ç
2024-12-13T21:09:18 < mawk> or just use a french azerty layout like civilized people
2024-12-13T21:09:25 < Steffanx> altgr + , seems to do the job
2024-12-13T21:09:34 < Steffanx> on windows i could write 'c
2024-12-13T21:09:55 < Steffanx> my current lunix kb layout does ć -_-
2024-12-13T21:11:05 < Steffanx> How's your stalker doing mawk ?
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2024-12-13T21:42:17 < fenugrec> geometry challenge for you mawk: (well, I solved it on paper a while ago, so not a huge challenge) given a square plate of uniform density, resting on 3 supports, what is the optimal, most stable placement of supports ? i.e. that allows to place the largest mass anywhere on the plate without tipping it over
2024-12-13T21:44:24 < mawk> which stalker Steffanx 
2024-12-13T21:44:30 < mawk> the bailiff?
2024-12-13T21:44:50 < Steffanx> Yeah
2024-12-13T21:44:56 < mawk> I didn't call them yet
2024-12-13T21:45:03 < Steffanx> Deurwaarder
2024-12-13T21:45:05 < mawk> ja
2024-12-13T21:45:32 < mawk> nice problem fenugrec 
2024-12-13T21:45:56 < mawk> you mean the largest point mass ?
2024-12-13T21:46:25 < mawk> you want the largest area such that any point mass can be placed
2024-12-13T21:48:40 < jpa-> put two supports underneath near a corner, and third one above the plate exactly at the corner
2024-12-13T21:49:44 < jpa-> now infinite mass can be placed anywhere on the larger side of the line formed by the two supports, and a mass many times larger than the mass of the plate can be placed on the smaller side
2024-12-13T21:51:22 < jpa-> for any other arrangement of supports you have, i can just bring the two supports closer to the corner and beat it ;)
2024-12-13T21:53:47 < mawk> but then you can't place a mass anywhere on the plate
2024-12-13T21:54:03 < fenugrec> mawk yes, largest point mass. Think of a marble surface plate , you want something versatile that lets you put a point mass anywhere possible on the plate without tipping
2024-12-13T21:54:11 < mawk> if a feather falls on the far side it will tip over
2024-12-13T21:54:13 < fenugrec> so jpa's solution doesn't really work
2024-12-13T21:54:30 < jpa-> mawk: how so?
2024-12-13T21:54:32 < fenugrec> the answer wasn't obvious, it was the square root of something
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2024-12-13T21:55:05 < mawk> the problem is about having the largest working area jpa- 
2024-12-13T21:55:22 < mawk> in your solution you can only place the big mass on the small side
2024-12-13T21:55:29 < mawk> or on the line
2024-12-13T21:55:33 < fenugrec> I see what jpa meant, but I was missing a parameter in the statement I guess : supports are supports between a table and the plate
2024-12-13T21:57:36 < jpa-> yeah, i was cheating through the inaccurate spec
2024-12-13T21:57:53 < Steffanx> i thought you only cheated on jbo
2024-12-13T21:58:02 < jpa-> but i think mawk has a misunderstanding too, i see the spec as maximize mass, area = full; mawk is saying maximize area, mass = something
2024-12-13T21:59:32 < fenugrec> "anywhere on the plate without tipping it over"
2024-12-13T22:00:59 < jpa-> mawk: https://jpa.kapsi.fi/stuff/pix/plate_support.png   
2024-12-13T22:01:04 < fenugrec> note to self: never hire jpa based on specs that can be abused : )
2024-12-13T22:03:54 < jpa-> fenugrec: your new spec still has a loophole, "a table".. i'll just have two tables, or a very wonky table
2024-12-13T22:05:05 < fenugrec> Im̀ not listening
2024-12-13T22:11:54 < fenugrec> it also implies normal space-time kind of stuff, causality, uniform gravity, "mass", etc
2024-12-13T22:16:54 < jpa-> yet the plate is infinitely rigid and point masses exist?
2024-12-13T22:17:11 < jpa-> seems like cherry-picking?
2024-12-13T22:17:42 < jpa-> ;)
2024-12-13T22:20:05 < qyx> fenugrec: does it have a solution? for the requirement to be satisfied, the mass must be placed inside a triangular area defined by the supports. So the square plate must fit withing the triangle which is in direct contradiction to all 3 supports being in the area of the square plate.
2024-12-13T22:20:43 < fenugrec> heh
2024-12-13T22:20:49 < qyx> if you put the mass anywhere outside the triangle, anuthing of any size will tip over
2024-12-13T22:21:00 < qyx> whether it is resting or not without the mass
2024-12-13T22:21:53 < fenugrec> qyx well the plate has mass, as stated; I didn't say  "allows infinite point load, anywhere" ; but the one that lets you pick a load L and place that load anywhere on the plate without tipping;
2024-12-13T22:22:41 < fenugrec> so, a crap solution with 3 supports near the middle of the plate, you can only put a very light load on the far corners until it tips
2024-12-13T22:22:47 < qyx> idk "the largest mass" means an infinite one
2024-12-13T22:22:54 < fenugrec> Have you people never seen/used a marble surface plate ?
2024-12-13T22:23:02 < qyx> yes I have
2024-12-13T22:23:18 < qyx> and I can tip over the plate anytime with a large enough mass
2024-12-13T22:23:44 < zyp> good evening
2024-12-13T22:23:48 < zyp> what are we arguing about?
2024-12-13T22:23:50 < fenugrec> ok right, yes - but for every choice of support placement, there is always a combination of largest mass at the worst place, that tips it, see ?
2024-12-13T22:24:09 < fenugrec> zyp I suck at formulating problems, it seems
2024-12-13T22:24:49 < qyx> si you are finding the most stable support positions
2024-12-13T22:25:34 < qyx> that's imho the largest area triangle which can be constructed which fits i side the plate
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2024-12-13T22:26:07 < qyx> the worst one is probably by dividing the square diagonally
2024-12-13T22:26:39 < fenugrec> yep you're on the right track, that's how I approached it, I don't think it exactly correlated to triangle "size" though
2024-12-13T22:26:40 < qyx> I mean the worst one of the best ones
2024-12-13T22:27:12 < fenugrec> yep, one support under 3 corners sucks because the CG is right on a vertex of the support "triangle", so it's ready to tip
2024-12-13T22:27:57 < qyx> I would say 2 supports under neighbouring corners and one in the middle of the opposite square vertex?
2024-12-13T22:28:14 < zyp> almost, but no
2024-12-13T22:28:44 < fenugrec> that one is a good candidate, but determining if it is better than 1 corner + 2 "somewhere" on opposing edges, is where the challenge was supposed to be
2024-12-13T22:28:54 < qyx> oh noice
2024-12-13T22:29:04 < qyx> so not directly in the corners
2024-12-13T22:29:21 < qyx> yes the "remaining" area must be the same
2024-12-13T22:29:31 < zyp> optimal would be two supports along top/bottom edge and one in the middle of the side edge, with the top/bottom positions placed so that the force in all four corners are identical
2024-12-13T22:30:39 < fenugrec> my solution was one on a corner, two others at some fraction of the opposing edges. Not midway or something nice, I'll try and find the piece of paper with "proof"
2024-12-13T22:30:59 < zyp> hmm, maybe that's better
2024-12-13T22:32:38 < fenugrec> If I had formulated this as "you are a manufacturer of square marble surface plates. Where do you tell the customer to install the 3 included support triangles for best stability" maybe it would have been better, but "best stability" probably needed some explaining anyway
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2024-12-13T22:33:46 < zyp> best stability isn't necessarily the same as your definition :)
2024-12-13T22:35:41 < fenugrec> the next-level follow-up problems would be to optimize, for a given point load, A) least vertical deflection vs nominal flat plane, B) minimal angle between local surface normal and vertical vectors. I don't think those can be solved in closed-form, would need FEA
2024-12-13T22:38:48 < fenugrec> curious to see what mawk comes up with : )
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2024-12-15T01:35:26 < fenugrec> Does anyone recognize who else rebrands this PSU : "Uni-T UDP6720", https://m.media-amazon.com/images/G/15/apparel/rcxgs/tile._CB483369412_.gif
2024-12-15T01:35:35 < fenugrec> there is no way that is a 900$ lab psu
2024-12-15T01:35:50 < fenugrec> "Brand: LDHJBNAC" lol I think not
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2024-12-15T02:07:52 < sauce> fenugrec: product link? the image is not useful
2024-12-15T02:08:34 < fenugrec> sauce yes sorry, meant to paste it too; https://instruments.uni-trend.com/products/dc-power-supplies/UDP6700
2024-12-15T02:08:53 < fenugrec> but searching for UDP6720 returns so few results that I wonder if it's another popular whitelabel thing
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2024-12-15T02:16:13 < sauce> ITECH IT762x
2024-12-15T02:16:43 < sauce> less featureful but same specs, so the PS is probably whitelabelled and the controls not
2024-12-15T02:21:50 < sauce> and i wouldnt be surprised if they share some lineage with the countless four-knob ones with no digital control
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2024-12-15T02:22:51 < fenugrec> interesting find, thanks - first hit was "https://www.itechate.com/en/product/ac-power-supply/IT7600.html" which is emphatically not in the same league
2024-12-15T02:26:42 < sauce> https://usa.itechate.com/en/info_128.aspx?itemid=545&lcid=91 yeah their SEO really sucks i guess
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2024-12-15T02:31:52 < fenugrec> oh you had typed it762x, but yeah it6700 that definitely looks like it. Thanks, aptly-named sauce
2024-12-15T02:37:25 < sauce> tbh all i did was search 60v 5a 100w on fleabay
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2024-12-15T11:16:05 < antto> STM32N6 mmmm, damn, looks tasty
2024-12-15T11:16:44 < antto> but BGA only
2024-12-15T11:24:58 < Steffanx> Yeah you'll love the Cube.AI
2024-12-15T11:28:21 < qyx> hexaspi, my god
2024-12-15T11:32:00 < qyx> gbit networking O_o
2024-12-15T11:35:03 < antto> eh, i don't need AI
2024-12-15T11:35:16 < antto> i'm looking at the mere 800MHz and FPU
2024-12-15T11:38:35 < qyx> huh the consumption ranges from 60 mA to 800 mA depending on the core temperature
2024-12-15T11:42:12 < zyp> shame they didn't throw in usb3 while they were at it
2024-12-15T11:47:17 < qyx> it looks like it is intended for co sumer neural IP cam market
2024-12-15T11:47:22 < jpa-> should be decahexaspi
2024-12-15T11:47:29 < zyp> jpa-, it is
2024-12-15T11:47:34 < jpa-> i know, but the name
2024-12-15T11:47:38 < jpa-> hexaspi is just wrong
2024-12-15T11:47:45 < zyp> it is hexadecaspi
2024-12-15T11:48:09 < qyx> with this temp range, h264 and mjpeg encoder and mipi csi2, nah
2024-12-15T11:48:12 < qyx> and gigabitz
2024-12-15T11:48:29 < qyx> oh lol it is 16 bit spi, I really though it is a 6 bit one
2024-12-15T11:48:30 < jpa-> hmm, datasheet calls XSPI which at least makes some sense
2024-12-15T11:48:42 < jpa-> but the summary on webpage is hexa-SPI
2024-12-15T11:49:06 < zyp> I worked with this on h7s7 recently, they certainly called it hexadecaspi somewhere
2024-12-15T11:49:28 < jpa-> looks like so
2024-12-15T11:49:44 < qyx> I should move on, never used h5, u5 nor mp2
2024-12-15T11:49:48 < zyp> xspi is «extended spi»
2024-12-15T11:49:50 < qyx> and yet another one
2024-12-15T11:49:56 < jpa-> great for googling to have three terms for one thing
2024-12-15T11:50:22 < jpa-> qyx: yeah, time to move to RP2xxx, avoids having too many models to choose from
2024-12-15T11:51:32 < zyp> «VDDxspi1,VDDxspi2: external power supply for dedicated I/Os (Octo SPI and Hexa Deca SPI memories)»
2024-12-15T11:51:38 < qyx> m0+ enough for everyone?
2024-12-15T11:51:47 < jpa-> new rp has m33
2024-12-15T11:51:52 < jpa-> and dual point weirdo fpu
2024-12-15T11:51:58 < zyp> and fun gpio bugs
2024-12-15T11:52:01 < jpa-> yeah
2024-12-15T11:52:05 < jpa-> all the good things
2024-12-15T11:52:09 < zyp> :)
2024-12-15T11:52:24 < jpa-> feels like F1 with I2C all over again, good old times
2024-12-15T11:52:25 < qyx> dual point numbers?
2024-12-15T11:52:37 < jpa-> err, dual precision :)
2024-12-15T11:52:59 < jpa-> thought the dp accelerator is weird enough that it might as well use dual points :)
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2024-12-15T12:44:51 < machinehum> What
2024-12-15T12:44:54 < machinehum> is MIPI20
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2024-12-15T12:55:02 < zyp> silly name for the 20-pin cortex-m debug&trace connector
2024-12-15T12:56:00 < zyp> the one that's called «Cortex Debug+ETM» here: https://documentation-service.arm.com/static/5fce6c49e167456a35b36af1
2024-12-15T12:57:43 < machinehum> Oh so it has nothing to do with MIPI
2024-12-15T12:58:14 < machinehum> I mean I always hated those giant 20pin jtag things with like 10 grounds
2024-12-15T12:59:22 < zyp> that's the one called «20-pin IDC» in the same document
2024-12-15T12:59:31 < machinehum> Yeah
2024-12-15T13:00:00 < zyp> it's not inherently bad, just full of obsolete signals
2024-12-15T13:00:31 < machinehum> Never used it honestly
2024-12-15T13:00:44 < zyp> «like 10 grounds» is a good thing
2024-12-15T13:00:55 < zyp> even the two new ones are like half grounds
2024-12-15T13:01:18 < zyp> because that's required for signal integrity
2024-12-15T13:02:32 < machinehum> Right yeah looking at it now I see they're placed in between signals
2024-12-15T13:02:43 < zyp> yep
2024-12-15T13:03:22 < zyp> the 20-pin debug&trace is also identical to the 10-pin debug connector for the first half
2024-12-15T13:03:33 < machinehum> Is this first stm32 with csi?
2024-12-15T13:03:48 < zyp> hmm, maybe
2024-12-15T13:04:01 < zyp> I know there's some with dsi already, not sure about csi
2024-12-15T13:04:18 < machinehum> I wonder if they bought the ip
2024-12-15T13:04:27 < machinehum> Or did it in house
2024-12-15T13:05:07 < machinehum> Also external memory with octospi, I think expressif does this with (maybe) just single spi
2024-12-15T13:05:08 < zyp> stm32 is full of other licensed IP, so it wouldn't be strange if they did
2024-12-15T13:05:42 < machinehum> Yeah right
2024-12-15T13:05:45 < zyp> yeah, xip/memory-mapped spi memories exists all over the place
2024-12-15T13:06:27 < zyp> pretty much every half-decent mcu nowadays can do xip qspi
2024-12-15T13:07:11 < zyp> and many even rely on it, omitting internal flash
2024-12-15T13:07:51 < machinehum> s/memory/ram
2024-12-15T13:08:19 < machinehum> I'm aware external flash is very popular
2024-12-15T13:08:42 < zyp> yeah, but the interface is the same
2024-12-15T13:09:37 < zyp> ram is generally less useful than flash because of the speed/latency bottleneck
2024-12-15T13:10:14 < machinehum> Yeah, that's just why I mentioned it
2024-12-15T13:10:44 < machinehum> But just because a chip supports external flash, doesn't mean external ram is supported
2024-12-15T13:11:26 < zyp> that's just because the controller might assume a readonly memory
2024-12-15T13:11:39 < zyp> but yeah
2024-12-15T13:12:36 < zyp> I'd say it's when you get to around hyperbus interface speeds that ram starts to become viable
2024-12-15T13:12:46 < machinehum> But it's there also prefect logic that just simply wouldn't work with RAM?
2024-12-15T13:13:12 < zyp> you can prefetch ram just the way youd prefetch flash
2024-12-15T13:13:43 < machinehum> Yeah guess so
2024-12-15T13:13:54 < zyp> but for a rw memory, you need a more elaborate cache with write buffering too
2024-12-15T13:14:07 < machinehum> hyperbus
2024-12-15T13:14:23 < zyp> hyperbus is pretty much just a variant of octospi
2024-12-15T13:14:30 < zyp> the octospi/xspi peripherals can drive it
2024-12-15T13:17:32 < machinehum> This is advantageous over ddr beacuse pin count?
2024-12-15T13:21:04 < zyp> yes
2024-12-15T13:21:24 < zyp> they're serial in the sense that command/addr/data is all serialized over the same signal pins
2024-12-15T13:22:39 < machinehum> Basically 12 pins
2024-12-15T13:24:08 < zyp> the hexadecaspi-ram on the h7s7-dk can do 6.4 Gb/s burst throughput
2024-12-15T13:24:50 < machinehum> That's interesting
2024-12-15T13:24:53 < machinehum> https://imgur.com/a/pqo6WOS
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2024-12-16T09:18:27 < qyx> zyp: do I remember correctly you did 0mq on an embedded target?
2024-12-16T09:18:35 < qyx> which patterns?
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2024-12-16T13:52:17 < qyx> so my AI friend recommends using CBOR because of the amount of libraries and trends of the number of github repos, libs, stack overflow questions, etc
2024-12-16T13:52:52 < qyx> the trend among those is supposedly about 20-30%
2024-12-16T13:53:06 < qyx> while asn.1 is -5 to -10% yearly
2024-12-16T14:08:43 < zyp> qyx, yeah, like a decade ago
2024-12-16T14:09:05 < zyp> I wrote a custom embedded 0mq implementation
2024-12-16T14:15:35 < zyp> I don't recall exactly what pattern we used, but it was definitely the wrong tool for the job
2024-12-16T14:17:10 < zyp> we were replacing some embedded linux devices with avr32-based devices instead, and the initial goal was to retain compatibility with the legacy stuff to avoid having to update the server, hence reimplementing same protocol and all
2024-12-16T14:18:58 < zyp> I think I spent a week implementing the protocol, and then one of my coworkers spent months getting everything to work reliably, including making a bunch of server side changes as well
2024-12-16T14:20:16 < zyp> zmq has this whole «don't worry about connections, just create a socket and send/receive» idea, and the application absolutely needed to keep track of connection state, so keepalives were rigged on top of it
2024-12-16T14:21:31 < zyp> in retrospect we concluded we would have spent a lot less time if we just did a new bespoke tcp protocol and implemented it on both sides
2024-12-16T14:24:10 < zyp> when you use zeromq for something it's suited for, it's probably nice, but I only have experience using it for unsuitable stuff :)
2024-12-16T14:25:46 < jpa-> i've also more often run into cases where zeromq is unsuitable than cases where it is suitable :)
2024-12-16T14:27:57 < zyp> I suspect that a lot of the time you want something like that, you're better of with something structured around a broker
2024-12-16T14:29:13 < zyp> as for CBOR, it seems like a reasonable choice if what you want is a binary JSON
2024-12-16T14:30:19 < zyp> I've filed CBOR as «improved messagepack» and messagepack as «binary JSON»
2024-12-16T14:31:17 < qyx> I have a set of requirements for "agents" processih data and I want to decouple it from a bunch of unimportant stuff,like connection method (unix sockets? udp?), connection state, I want framing, etc.
2024-12-16T14:31:38 < qyx> and one to many and many to one pattern (push/pull in zmq)
2024-12-16T14:32:22 < zyp> the issue I have with CBOR/messagepack is that they don't have a standard way of doing a schema, in the sense of having a way to define a string/int mapping for keys
2024-12-16T14:32:26 < zyp> think protobuf schemas
2024-12-16T14:32:51 < qyx> agents are connected together with some sort of global state creator and connections are being setup between them
2024-12-16T14:33:06 < qyx> yeah being schema-less is apparently the new standard
2024-12-16T14:34:15 < zyp> we've got some stuff at work using messagepack and doing string/key-mapping, and I hate the way it's done
2024-12-16T14:34:24 < qyx> oh and in the current implementation those agents are actual processes and are programmed in c or python
2024-12-16T14:34:53 < qyx> in the future they may run in threads instead, for that purpose zmq should have the inproc transport
2024-12-16T14:36:58 < zyp> we've got a global dictionary for string/int mapping, but then when something somewhere needs a key that's not in the global dictionary, it can add the key «private», which creates a map using a «private» dictionary instead
2024-12-16T14:39:17 < zyp> and keeping track of which dictionary to use is annoying, because it's neither fixed nor communicated inband, so there's no simple generic way to translate
2024-12-16T14:43:38 < zyp> you'll get e.g. a message with «here's data from node X, sensor Y, private { blahblah }», and you have to know what kind of sensor that is just to translate it into a json representation
2024-12-16T14:44:31 < zyp> in other words, not having a standard way to write a schema for this leads people to invent bad ways :p
2024-12-16T14:47:44 < zyp> if this was based on protobuf, a union would probably have been involved at some point, telling you exactly what message type you've got
2024-12-16T14:48:19 < zyp> speaking of protobuf, I saw there were a new version
2024-12-16T14:48:21 < zyp> «editions»
2024-12-16T14:49:14 < zyp> jpa-, does nanopb support it yet? :)
2024-12-16T14:53:27 < qyx> whether the keys are in the schema or in a some sort of spec, doesn't matter
2024-12-16T14:53:33 < qyx> they need to be so ewhere
2024-12-16T14:53:45 < qyx> and that's the part which usually fails
2024-12-16T14:54:05 < zyp> we've got specs
2024-12-16T14:54:11 < qyx> but it is true that with IDL you are forced to have it *somewhere*
2024-12-16T14:54:30 < qyx> *with schema
2024-12-16T14:54:46 < zyp> yeah, and in an unambiguous form
2024-12-16T14:55:27 < zyp> my experience is that human readable specs are much more likely to be both ambiguous and out of date than machine readable ones are
2024-12-16T14:56:34 < zyp> we used to have production test specs in a big excel sheet
2024-12-16T14:57:06 < qyx> no.
2024-12-16T14:57:17 < qyx> people should not be allowed to use office suites
2024-12-16T14:57:31 < qyx> until getting an office drivinglice se
2024-12-16T14:57:38 < qyx> *driving license
2024-12-16T14:57:49 < zyp> when I worked on production test infrastructure a while ago, I defined a YAML-based test spec format and argued that we should just put it in git and let it be the sole source of truth
2024-12-16T14:58:06 < qyx> which includes "not indenting with spaces", using styles, using tab stops, page breaks, etc.
2024-12-16T14:59:54 < zyp> I suggested that if writing yaml by hand is too inconvenient for the hardware team, we can make a GUI tool for editing the yaml spec
2024-12-16T15:00:42 < zyp> that haven't happened yet, maybe will at some point if my test framework gets adopted by more projects in the future
2024-12-16T15:01:22 < zyp> so, the issue with this messagepack stuff
2024-12-16T15:01:28 < zyp> is that its specs are word documents
2024-12-16T15:01:57 < qyx> ok lol
2024-12-16T15:02:10 < qyx> I mean, they can be good
2024-12-16T15:02:18 < qyx> but usually they are monkeyed
2024-12-16T15:02:56 < zyp> when I did a project a year ago that I got to decide the protocol for, I went with protobuf, and just copypasted the .proto right into the word document with the other spec stuff
2024-12-16T15:03:33 < zyp> (and when I've made a few updates to the .proto since, I've just copypasted the updated .proto again)
2024-12-16T15:04:53 < zyp> if it was up to me, we'd have all documentation as markdown in git and just pull in the original .proto file when rendering a pdf or whatever
2024-12-16T15:07:41 < qyx> yes I am pushing .rst for the same purpose and if needed, I generate html with sphinx and print to pdf
2024-12-16T15:07:55 < qyx> (not doing rst to pdf directly because ugly)
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2024-12-16T16:28:27 < jpa-> zyp: no, but someone wants it  https://github.com/nanopb/nanopb/issues/900
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2024-12-16T17:14:57 < bitmask> damn, signed up for an apple credit card and only got a 2k limit
2024-12-16T17:15:33 < jpa-> they know you are poor
2024-12-16T17:15:39 < bitmask> yes they do
2024-12-16T17:15:50 < jpa-> though i don't know why anyone would need a limit higher than that ;)
2024-12-16T17:16:02 < bitmask> because laptops are like 5k
2024-12-16T17:16:16 < specing> used laptops are like 100
2024-12-16T17:16:30 < bitmask> but m4 max bro
2024-12-16T17:17:14 < specing> don't care
2024-12-16T17:17:24 < bitmask> i was joking
2024-12-16T17:17:34 < bitmask> i still just want a new laptop
2024-12-16T17:17:45 < jpa-> ask santa
2024-12-16T17:17:49 < specing> buy a used one
2024-12-16T17:17:56 < specing> it'd still be new for you
2024-12-16T17:18:05 < bitmask> I don't even mind paying for it all upfront, I just figured id take advantage of 12 months of 0% financing
2024-12-16T17:56:27 < jbo> how is that an advantage?
2024-12-16T17:58:12 < BrainDamage> in the us there's this evil credit score that increases the more debt you get and pay off, so in order to get a big loan you should get yourself a lot of small loans
2024-12-16T18:02:30 < zyp> jpa-, I like the new features stuff, seems much saner than the proto2/3 split
2024-12-16T18:02:41 < zyp> (and I like that they've reintroduced some features)
2024-12-16T18:04:16 < zyp> (e.g. encoding nested messages as groups instead of length-prefixed)
2024-12-16T18:22:41 < specing> bitmask: doesen't the financing increase base price, though?
2024-12-16T18:23:02 < bitmask> no
2024-12-16T18:24:53 < bitmask> they got you to sign up for a credit card, that alone will make them money from many people
2024-12-16T18:26:56 < bitmask> apple is crazy though, unless you have an iphone you can only use the card at their store, if you have an iphone you can use apple pay anywhere like a normal card
2024-12-16T18:27:20 < bitmask> seems like a missed opportunity to me
2024-12-16T18:27:59 < bitmask> you can even request a physical card, but only if you have an iphone....
2024-12-16T18:37:19 < specing> missed opportunity? It's designed to lock you further into their garden
2024-12-16T18:38:07 < bitmask> I guess if you already have an iphone it might further your decision to stay with it, but I dont have an iphone and so they are losing on any potential of me making regular purchases
2024-12-16T18:38:18 < bitmask> i cant see people buying an iphone just to use an apple card
2024-12-16T18:38:29 < specing> obviously you're meant to buy an iphone with their card if you don't have one yet haha
2024-12-16T18:39:06 < bitmask> maybe its just like one more little perk of getting everything apple
2024-12-16T18:39:13 < bitmask> all those little perks add up
2024-12-16T18:39:16 < bitmask> to make it worth it
2024-12-16T18:39:20 < bitmask> i dunno
2024-12-16T19:04:37 < jbo> given that you're spending 5k on a laptop I imagine tipping you over to spend another 1.2k on an iPhone will be much easier in the near future.
2024-12-16T19:11:30 < zyp> I financed my macbook at 0%, because due to inflation that's effectively a discount
2024-12-16T19:12:09 < zyp> not through apple though, a third party retailer
2024-12-16T19:13:18 < zyp> some sort of leasing-ish trade in program, pay on it for two years or whatever, then you can opt to trade it in and renew the deal on a new model
2024-12-16T19:13:43 < zyp> except it's formally not leasing, you own the device and got a loan to buy it
2024-12-16T19:15:26 < zyp> turned out the financing partner was so shitty to deal with I paid it down ahead of time to not waste more time on it
2024-12-16T19:29:46 < bitmask> I don't upgrade often, I'd rather overspend initially and hold onto it for 5-10 years. I feel like year to year updates are just getting smaller and smaller
2024-12-16T19:30:21 < bitmask> I went from a galaxy s6 to a s23 and soon a 2015mbp to a 2024
2024-12-16T19:35:43 < aandrew> I bought the last of the intel macbook pros, maxxed out ram+disk, hopefully it lasts as long as my 2012 macbook air
2024-12-16T19:35:46 < aandrew> loved that thing
2024-12-16T19:37:12 < aandrew> zyp: I just did the same thing with some furniture purchase -- looked good on paper but closer scrutiny it's like wtf, hell no, I'll pay it all off right now, fuck you
2024-12-16T19:38:39 < zyp> the fuckers didn't use the electronic invoicing system that everybody else is using in norway, so it was the lone bill that arrived in my mailbox every month, that I manually had to pay
2024-12-16T19:40:02 < zyp> and what really had me fed up was when one of them disappeared and didn't get paid until they sent me a reminder with late fees
2024-12-16T19:41:35 < zyp> every other bill I get just shows up in a list in the bank app/web and all I have to do is push a button to approve it
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2024-12-16T20:24:33 < jpa-> zyp: kinda yeah, i always felt that proto3 fields could have been just new field type for proto2
2024-12-16T20:24:51 < jpa-> but the editions/features stuff feels like it will be a burden to maintain
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2024-12-16T21:10:00 < zyp> because they might actually add new features? :p
2024-12-16T21:12:42 < jpa-> yeah, and there will be a lot of combinations for those features
2024-12-16T21:14:22 < zyp> combinations doesn't look like an issue to me
2024-12-16T21:14:40 < zyp> as in, features don't seem to interact much
2024-12-16T21:23:31 < jpa-> i think submessage encoding would interact with a lot of what goes inside the submessage
2024-12-16T21:24:55 < jpa-> mixing proto2/proto3 stuff kinda could have effects too, but on the other hand the "optional" was introduces to proto3 already some time ago and nanopb supported similar even before that
2024-12-16T21:39:55 < qyx> oh re: cbor, I find some features super useful
2024-12-16T21:40:25 < qyx> like indefinite arrays/maps, 0xff token ends any indefinite field
2024-12-16T21:40:39 < qyx> very suitable for flash because it allows appending
2024-12-16T21:41:15 < veverak> actually
2024-12-16T21:41:34 < veverak> is there some "new" thing that would trumph proto3?
2024-12-16T21:41:49 < veverak> it pissed me off recently and got rid of it, but mostly because I wanted ascii-based protocol anyway
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2024-12-16T21:51:39 < zyp> veverak, yeah, it's called «protobuf editions»
2024-12-16T21:52:00 < zyp> https://protobuf.dev/editions/overview/
2024-12-16T21:52:11 < veverak> interesting
2024-12-16T21:52:39 < zyp> edition 2023 is mostly proto2 and proto3 mashed together making the differences into optional features instead
2024-12-16T21:53:11 < zyp> so you can select behavior per field rather than per file
2024-12-16T21:53:41 < zyp> on a glance, I rather like it
2024-12-16T21:55:42 < veverak> I see
2024-12-16T21:57:31 < zyp> speaking of protobuf, I was recently looking at adding protnonium rpc support to rust, piggybacking on one of the existing rust protobuf libs
2024-12-16T21:58:57 < zyp> prost looks rather nice, and its generator even has a hook for generating services: https://docs.rs/prost-build/latest/prost_build/trait.ServiceGenerator.html
2024-12-16T21:59:37 < zyp> except there's no way to get at custom options
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2024-12-17T11:40:10 < qyx> when I see C example of a recvmsg() usage I want to puke
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2024-12-17T16:18:53 < qyx> so ipv6/udp looks pretty simple
2024-12-17T16:18:56 < qyx> including ndp
2024-12-17T17:00:06 < mawk> I still need to try your problem fenugrec 
2024-12-17T17:00:11 < mawk> I was wrapping up another one
2024-12-17T17:00:36 < mawk> you probably know it already: what is the curve described by a cable suspended between two poles of equal height?
2024-12-17T17:01:04 < mawk> uniform cable of length L, distance D between the poles, height of the poles H
2024-12-17T17:01:59 < jbo> isn't that just sinh?
2024-12-17T17:02:05 < mawk> almost
2024-12-17T17:02:08 < jbo> well, cosh
2024-12-17T17:02:09 < mawk> it's cosh
2024-12-17T17:02:15 < mawk> but it's not just cosh, you have coefficients inside
2024-12-17T17:02:18 < mawk> and you have to find them
2024-12-17T17:02:33 < jbo> I partly remember this from university
2024-12-17T17:02:40 < mawk> but yeah the general shape is cosh(Ax), but then all the difficulty is in finding exactly what A is
2024-12-17T17:02:47 < jbo> it was like    a * cosh(b/a)  or something
2024-12-17T17:03:00 < mawk> and well finding why it's cosh in the first place
2024-12-17T17:03:17 < jbo> yeah that I don't remember anymore. but it was certainly part of the first semester math :p
2024-12-17T17:04:15 < mawk> well you can try it, you just need to apply Newton's second law to an infinitesimal section of the cable
2024-12-17T17:04:28 < mawk> the only forces on it are the tension of the cable from the left, from the right, and its weight
2024-12-17T17:04:52 < mawk> and the tension is the key to the problem; as the tension vector is basically a scaled version of the gradient of the curve
2024-12-17T17:04:57 < mawk> if you get the tension you get the curve
2024-12-17T17:05:32 < mawk> because the tension has to be tangent to the curve, so it's a multiple of the gradient
2024-12-17T17:07:22 < jbo> yeah that sounds awfully farmiliar
2024-12-17T17:08:26 < mawk> you can also do it using lagrangian mechanics
2024-12-17T17:08:30 < mawk> using euler-lagrande theorem
2024-12-17T17:08:37 < mawk> then it's much easier, as I've heard
2024-12-17T17:08:53 < mawk> but it's more satisfying to do it using the classical newtonian mechanics
2024-12-17T17:09:08 < jbo> I'm all about the satisfaction
2024-12-17T17:09:20 < mawk> finding the constants that go in the equation is even harder than finding the general form of the equation
2024-12-17T17:09:29 < mawk> if my derivation is correct
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2024-12-17T17:09:45 < mawk> at some point you have to solve α = sinh(D/L α)
2024-12-17T17:09:55 < mawk> which is not possible 
2024-12-17T17:10:24 < mawk> so I had to solve it numerically, I tried Newton's method but the zone of convergence is very small so you have to have an excellent initial guess
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2024-12-17T17:30:08 < fenugrec> "chaînette", also recollections from uni, I thought it was a fairly plug-and-play equation
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2024-12-17T17:44:55 < mawk> well once you have all the constants to plug in yeah
2024-12-17T17:46:02 < mawk> here's my write-up: https://serveur.io/Chainette.html
2024-12-17T17:46:08 < mawk> BrainDamage ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
2024-12-17T17:46:23 < mawk> I verify that the curves are correct at the end by computing their arc length, and it seems to match
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2024-12-17T19:11:06 < ventyl_> hello world!
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2024-12-17T19:47:39 < jpa-> Steffanx: jbo is upset that i paid for his services, how do you usually handle this??
2024-12-17T19:50:56 < Steffanx> jpa-: Are you sure he's upset about you paying for his services?
2024-12-17T19:51:18 < jpa-> i think so
2024-12-17T19:51:34 < jpa-> i didn't want to make him feel like a ... consultant
2024-12-17T19:52:36 < jbo> staph it
2024-12-17T19:53:03 < Steffanx> jbo can't say anything about this can he? Did you make him sign an NDA jpa- ?
2024-12-17T19:53:29 < Steffanx> Anyway, a hug or maybe some cuddles is enough.
2024-12-17T19:54:23 < jbo> 🥹
2024-12-17T19:57:47 < jpa-> chatgpt says that emoji means "Pleading or begging – asking for something in a cute or emotional way."
2024-12-17T20:00:32 < Steffanx> That totally sounds like jbo.
2024-12-17T20:02:29 < Steffanx> Did he help you with that TI part not to be named jpa- ?
2024-12-17T20:02:50 < jpa-> i sure hope he did not ship me any of those..
2024-12-17T20:03:11 < jpa-> if he did, i'll call my bank and ask them to cancel the transaction
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2024-12-17T20:09:06 < jbo> somebody sounds jealous
2024-12-17T20:09:37 < Steffanx> Don´t worry jpa-. He won't return the money. Swiss don't return money or other valuables.
2024-12-17T20:10:18 < jpa-> Steffanx: that's what i relied on
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2024-12-17T20:15:55  * jbo jabs jpa- 
2024-12-17T20:16:05 < jpa-> :|
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2024-12-17T20:17:18 < Steffanx> jpa- and his perstuntuma. 
2024-12-17T20:17:34 -!- jbo is now known as jbo-
2024-12-17T20:17:42 < jpa-> yeah, i failed at predicting the extent and depth of swiss feelings
2024-12-17T20:17:43 < jbo-> finally, we are one.
2024-12-17T20:17:47 < jpa-> they've been rumbled
2024-12-17T20:19:17 < jbo-> henceforth I shall not provide any services anymore
2024-12-17T20:19:24 < jbo-> henceforth
2024-12-17T20:20:03 < Steffanx> wut? You pay him one time and you get to retire afterwards?
2024-12-17T20:20:18 < jpa-> it was a *big* payment
2024-12-17T20:20:41 < jpa-> onlyfans-tier
2024-12-17T20:24:17 < Steffanx> oh dear.. im not sure how much that is. Somewhere between 0 and 1 million CHF...
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2024-12-17T20:24:56 < jpa-> and i bet you don't want to know what was the service
2024-12-17T20:25:24 < jbo-> you promised not to share
2024-12-17T20:25:33 < jpa-> i won't
2024-12-17T20:25:37 < jpa-> i'll just tease
2024-12-17T20:25:43 < jbo-> that's how it started
2024-12-17T20:26:02 < jpa-> that's how it will continue until one of us becomes too senile
2024-12-17T20:27:10 < Steffanx> by that time i wont believe a word you say anymore... perhaps you already are too senile (?)
2024-12-17T20:28:30 < jbo-> your lack of trust in me is why we had to go separate ways
2024-12-17T20:30:42 < Steffanx> ohno, jpa- and jbo- split up?!
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2024-12-17T20:37:47 < Steffanx> explains the money transaction and the other one being upset.
2024-12-17T20:38:14 -!- Livio [~livio@user/livio] has joined ##stm32
2024-12-17T20:41:39 < qyx> what the
2024-12-17T20:43:11 < Steffanx> lol qyx . im not sure anyone understand what's going on here.
2024-12-17T20:43:29 < Steffanx> understands*
2024-12-17T20:43:55 < jpa-> there was much less drama with the springs.. maybe because qyx knows how to ship stuff
2024-12-17T20:44:19 -!- hexo__ [~hexo@user/hexo] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
2024-12-17T20:44:23 < qyx> lol what did you two screw up
2024-12-17T20:46:22 < jpa-> yes
2024-12-17T20:46:53 < Steffanx> no
2024-12-17T20:48:48 < jbo-> I have nothing to say
2024-12-17T20:49:22 < Steffanx> it's alright jbo- .. im not sure what jpa- is on today
2024-12-17T20:49:24 < jbo-> my services include discretion
2024-12-17T20:50:46 < jpa-> i was having a pretty bad day because code does not work well if you forget to call init(), but then jbo made my day a lot better
2024-12-17T20:50:54 < fenugrec> in typical helvetic tradition
2024-12-17T20:51:14 < jbo-> I'm always there for you, jpa- <3
2024-12-17T20:51:21 < jpa-> "say nothing" fits well in the finnish tradition too, so we are a perfect match
2024-12-17T20:51:29 < Steffanx> is init() a good function name anyway?
2024-12-17T20:51:42 < Steffanx> -()
2024-12-17T20:52:07 < jpa-> it was really InitiatorInit()
2024-12-17T20:56:42 < Steffanx> Yeah easy to miss the initiation of that.
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2024-12-17T22:31:13 < englishman> swiss dont have feelings
2024-12-17T22:32:28 < Steffanx> You're must have them confused with the finnish.
2024-12-17T23:24:59 < qyx> ipv6 pros, hjalp
2024-12-17T23:25:37 < qyx> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/wyYRS
2024-12-17T23:25:39 < qyx> namely zyp
2024-12-17T23:25:50 < qyx> what's wrong with this neighbor solicitation/advertisement?
2024-12-17T23:26:00 < qyx> it is a tcpdump dump
2024-12-17T23:33:24 < qyx> checksums are good, verified by wireshark, ip neighbor show shows FAILED state
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2024-12-17T23:35:57 < mawk> your computer is fd00:dead:beef::1 then?
2024-12-17T23:36:11 < mawk> i.e. it's solicited 
2024-12-17T23:36:43 < qyx> yes
2024-12-17T23:37:13 < qyx> my AI friend says the tcpdump output is correct correctly parsing all the values from the dump O_o
2024-12-17T23:37:25 < qyx> it suggests checking some sysctl values
2024-12-17T23:37:32 < mawk> state failed means the host is not seeing the response
2024-12-17T23:37:58 < mawk> or rejecting it
2024-12-17T23:39:22 < mawk> you can run ndpmon and see what it says
2024-12-17T23:39:33 < mawk> it might tell you what's wrong if something is wrong
2024-12-17T23:42:11 < qyx> ndpmon is oldoldstable :S
2024-12-17T23:42:41 < mawk> did you set the override flag yourself?
2024-12-17T23:42:55 < qyx> yes
2024-12-17T23:42:59 < mawk> I guess it should be set
2024-12-17T23:43:01 < mawk> yeah
2024-12-17T23:43:20 < qyx> o I have ndptool
2024-12-17T23:43:44 < mawk> the hop limit is 255? that's weird
2024-12-17T23:43:53 < qyx> the spec says it should be 255
2024-12-17T23:43:58 < mawk> ah nevermind 
2024-12-17T23:44:09 < mawk> yeah I thought we were in fe80::
2024-12-17T23:45:07 < mawk> and I suppose you don't have any ip6tables or whatever rules that might be blocking this?
2024-12-17T23:46:05 < qyx> nothing
2024-12-17T23:48:35 < mawk> I suppose you already saw that piece of text about validating neighbor advertisements https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4861.html#section-7.1.2
2024-12-17T23:48:52 < mawk> all of it seems to match\
2024-12-17T23:49:42 < mawk> hmmm
2024-12-17T23:49:51 < mawk> you used source link-layer as the option to give the MAC address
2024-12-17T23:49:58 < mawk> shouldn't it be target link-layer instead?
2024-12-17T23:50:02 < mawk> type 2 instead of type 1
2024-12-17T23:50:19 < mawk> that's probably the issue
2024-12-17T23:50:29 < zyp> sounds plausible
2024-12-17T23:51:12 -!- Livio [~livio@user/livio] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
2024-12-17T23:51:54 < zyp> this, I guess: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/QG4nu#line-32
2024-12-17T23:55:02 < qyx> mawk: I ow you a beer
2024-12-17T23:55:05 < qyx> *owe
2024-12-17T23:55:25 < qyx> thanks
--- Day changed Wed Dec 18 2024
2024-12-18T00:01:44 < mawk> nice
2024-12-18T00:14:47 < qyx> qyx@qyx5:~$ ping fd00:dead:beef::5
2024-12-18T00:14:47 < qyx> PING fd00:dead:beef::5(fd00:dead:beef::5) 56 data bytes
2024-12-18T00:14:47 < qyx> 64 bytes from fd00:dead:beef::5: icmp_seq=1 ttl=255 time=0.822 ms
2024-12-18T00:14:49 < qyx> weehee
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2024-12-18T00:38:35 < qyx> now I need to eliminate the link layer
2024-12-18T00:45:51 < mawk> eliminate how, you mean disable automatic assignment of the ll address?
2024-12-18T00:46:28 < mawk> like ip link set blabla addrgenmode none
2024-12-18T01:00:11 < qyx> no I am basically doing a software bridge to a custom bus/interface, bridging specifically crafted ipv6/udp traffic to the bus
2024-12-18T01:00:46 < qyx> so the client/s is doing NDP discovering mac addresses I don't really have
2024-12-18T01:01:11 < qyx> so I am simulating them deterministically using IDs from the custom bus
2024-12-18T01:03:39 < mawk> o I see
2024-12-18T01:04:24 < mawk> but the bridge is outside of the host you're running these experiments on?
2024-12-18T01:04:33 < mawk> or you're using a tap device
2024-12-18T01:04:39 < mawk> and want to move to tun now
2024-12-18T01:04:59 < qyx> so when I send an UDP packet to fd00:dead:beef::5:4004, it will translate it to a bus access to a destination on address 5 and endpoint 4
2024-12-18T01:05:06 < mawk> ah I see nice
2024-12-18T01:05:24 < qyx> I am using a raw socket on a veth device pair
2024-12-18T01:05:28 < mawk> last time I did something more or less similar with IPv4 I used transparent proxy
2024-12-18T01:05:41 < mawk> which allows getting packets for a whole range of addresses from a single socket
2024-12-18T01:05:57 < qyx> I failed with the 'whole range' thing
2024-12-18T01:06:08 < qyx> I knew it should be doable but after many tries I gave up
2024-12-18T01:06:18 < mawk> I'm not sure if the TPROXY target still works with ipv6 but it should in theory
2024-12-18T01:06:50 < qyx> it should also be possible with inaddr_any supposedly and a few other hacks
2024-12-18T01:06:53 < qyx> but apparently not
2024-12-18T01:06:54 < mawk> you can force the computer to have the packets examined by the host using the 'local' route type
2024-12-18T01:07:08 < mawk> and then a socket listening at the right place can get them
2024-12-18T01:07:34 < mawk> but using veth with a regular route will achieve the same thing I suppose
2024-12-18T01:08:09 < zyp> qyx, any reason you're doing it that way and not just putting the addr/endpoint in a header at the beginning of the UDP packet?
2024-12-18T01:08:10 < qyx> a tun device could work better and root-less
2024-12-18T01:08:26 < zyp> what's the benefit of overcomplicating it?
2024-12-18T01:09:02 < mawk> the bridge id encoded in the address is pretty cool though
2024-12-18T01:09:02 < qyx> I am also having native IP devices
2024-12-18T01:09:21 < mawk> we are artists we can do things because they're elegant
2024-12-18T01:09:23 < mawk> but don't tell my manager
2024-12-18T01:09:32 < qyx> and I want accessing both the same way
2024-12-18T01:09:39 < qyx> zyp: ^
2024-12-18T01:10:15 < qyx> this is not a bridge just for the sake of being a bridge
2024-12-18T01:10:27 < qyx> now I am using zeromq for the old stuff
2024-12-18T01:10:45 < qyx> I want to use udp for the new stuff, both for new IP clients and old legacy clients
2024-12-18T01:11:09 < zyp> right
2024-12-18T01:11:34 < mawk> so, using IP_TRANSPARENT on the socket and then have the 'local' route you can listen to an address that the host technically does not have
2024-12-18T01:11:40 < mawk> that's what I did with IPv4
2024-12-18T01:12:24 < qyx> yeah, I have AF_PACKET, SOCK_RAW, no additional route, just a subnet configured od a veth pair
2024-12-18T01:12:40 < mawk> and possibly with this https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/networking/tproxy.txt
2024-12-18T01:12:42 < qyx> would it work with a dummy or bridge if?
2024-12-18T01:12:58 < mawk> I suppose so yeah
2024-12-18T01:14:32 < qyx> hm with tun it should be possible too with one additional static route
2024-12-18T01:14:57 < qyx> omitting the neighbor discovery hassle too?
2024-12-18T01:15:17 < mawk> well you can still do NDP if you want but it's not required anymore
2024-12-18T01:15:55 < mawk> having the route is enough
2024-12-18T01:18:14 < qyx> let's try how the tun behaves
2024-12-18T01:18:40 < mawk> that's the point of point to point interface, you read/write ipv6 packets into the device directly and you shouldn't have to care about NDP
2024-12-18T01:20:23 < qyx> yeah and link layer addresses neither
2024-12-18T01:20:29 < qyx> I just need the IP
2024-12-18T01:20:57 < mawk> yeah
2024-12-18T01:21:57 < mawk> you can still do something like gratuitous NDP advertisements so that devices can announce themselves on the network, but then you don't use the target link-layer option
2024-12-18T01:22:21 < mawk> but you probably don't need this
2024-12-18T01:22:49 < qyx> I want the announcement functionality but id yet how will I do this
2024-12-18T01:25:20 < mawk> you either catch the NDP advertisements from the tun device directly, or you let it go to the kernel and find the addresses later in the 'ip neigh' list, but in the latter case you need to allow gratuitous advertisements and also they can get dropped from the list after some unspecified time I suppose
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2024-12-18T01:27:38 < mawk> sysctl drop_unsolicited_na=0 and accept_untracked_na=1 for instance
2024-12-18T01:27:39 < qyx> it took  me 5 minutes to get tun working
2024-12-18T01:27:50 < qyx> half the latency compared to a raw socket and veth
2024-12-18T01:28:06 < mawk> yeah it's pretty nice stuff
2024-12-18T01:28:07 < qyx> works on first try
2024-12-18T01:28:26 < qyx> I need to setup ip and link up on the tun repeatedly though
2024-12-18T01:28:35 < qyx> but afaik there was some persistent option for that
2024-12-18T01:29:09 < qyx> also openwrt could handle that with their hotplug stuff
2024-12-18T01:29:42 < mawk> ioctl TUNSETPERSIST
2024-12-18T01:30:03 < mawk> you can also set up the tunnel first, with the ip command
2024-12-18T01:30:23 < mawk> make it available for a particular user, and then you can start your program under that user and you don't have to be root
2024-12-18T01:30:27 < mawk> ip tuntap ...
2024-12-18T01:30:35 < qyx> great thanks
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2024-12-18T01:53:33 < jbo-> you're welcome!
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2024-12-18T09:56:54 < nohit> which document documents the registers for ITM, DWT and such for stm32f4 ?
2024-12-18T09:57:32 < nohit> i would have assumed they are in STM32 Cortex® -M4 MCUs and MPUs programming manual
2024-12-18T09:57:38 < nohit> but no
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2024-12-18T10:03:57 < nohit> ah they are in the regular refence manual
2024-12-18T10:04:27 < nohit> i assumed they are core peripherals
2024-12-18T10:22:30 < nohit> altho they are poorly documented in there
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2024-12-18T10:48:22 < jpa-> nohit: possibly armv7m architecture technical reference from arm
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2024-12-18T10:52:26 < nohit> jpa-: yep
2024-12-18T10:57:27 < qyx> A
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2024-12-18T11:11:16 < karlp> also coresight debug manual
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2024-12-18T12:02:12 < nohit> has anyone used SWO with vscode + cortex-debug extension ? i verified that it works with CubeIDE but in there you configure it with the debugger and not in code
2024-12-18T12:02:35 < nohit> so im not sure if the problem is in the code or in vscode's launch.json
2024-12-18T12:02:51 < nohit> here's what i have https://bpa.st/AXTQ
2024-12-18T12:03:11 < nohit> i used this a reference https://community.st.com/t5/stm32-vscode-extension-mcus/any-hints-on-using-swo-output-from-stm32-within-vscode-via/td-p/704896
2024-12-18T12:04:02 < nohit> vscode opens the terminal for SWO output but nothing is printed there
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2024-12-18T12:09:06 < ventyl> I've used vscode + cortex-debug but no SWO
2024-12-18T12:14:45 < jpa-> nohit: i would start by using scope to see if the SWO pin has anything happening on it
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2024-12-18T12:32:57 < nohit> sounds like a plan
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2024-12-18T13:09:10 < nohit> it does send the same character messages with that configuration code as with CubeIDE, but when configured with CubeIDE the MCU constatly sends this over SWO https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/ae4MyrSV/SDS00003.png
2024-12-18T13:09:19 < nohit> any idea what that is ?
2024-12-18T13:09:34 < nohit> it is not timestamps as i have turned that off
2024-12-18T13:10:07 < nohit> and it's always the same
2024-12-18T13:14:20 < jpa-> probably sync frame
2024-12-18T13:24:50 < nohit> cortex-debug actually tries to config the ITM on its own, the result is the same without my init code
2024-12-18T13:26:02 < nohit> i think the problem might be that i have very old openocd
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2024-12-18T13:44:11 < nohit> yep
2024-12-18T13:44:32 < nohit> i had openocd from march 2021
2024-12-18T13:44:37 < nohit> that was the problem
2024-12-18T13:44:55 < nohit> no need to configure the ITM manually
2024-12-18T13:45:45 < nohit> thanks for help/ideas
2024-12-18T14:07:37 < qyx> you are welcome
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2024-12-18T15:35:41 < qyx> zyp: don't you think you are getting a slight kid-induced retardation over the last couple of years? how do you cope with it?
2024-12-18T15:36:28 < qyx> asking because ~same age
2024-12-18T15:45:29 < ventyl> i am getting more and more retarded even without kids
2024-12-18T15:46:49 < jpa-> the goal is to care less and less at the same pace as you are becoming less capable
2024-12-18T15:52:32 < qyx> ah
2024-12-18T15:59:02 < jbo-> kid-induced retardation? what?
2024-12-18T15:59:06 < jbo-> is that a thin?
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2024-12-18T16:54:12 < zyp> qyx, idk, I'm just finding it harder to have both uninterrupted time I can focus on something as well as energy to actually work on something at the same time
2024-12-18T16:54:35 < zyp> which is kinda natural with a ~five month old in the house
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2024-12-18T16:57:48 < zyp> on the bright side I'm on 75% paternity leave until like mid-september
2024-12-18T16:59:15 < qyx> oh you have another one, congrats
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2024-12-18T17:05:43 < qyx> yes exactly that, I am energy-deprived, hard to even boot the brain when I have a small time slice available and as a result I react slightly retarded
2024-12-18T17:23:16 < ventyl> um, how does one debug USB-attached device? e.g. when I need to step through a piece of code. that causes USB meltdown
2024-12-18T17:24:23 < zyp> depends what sort of issue you're debugging
2024-12-18T17:24:29 < fenugrec> step 1) give up
2024-12-18T17:25:27 < ventyl> zyp: internal application logic outside of the USB stack
2024-12-18T17:25:35 < zyp> generally it's only issues during enumeration you can't step through, due to fairly short timeouts on certain steps of the sequence
2024-12-18T17:26:25 < zyp> once the device is happily enumerated, halting it is usually not causing issues
2024-12-18T17:26:58 < ventyl> hm, so stopping PC side trying to communicate with it should be sufficient?
2024-12-18T17:27:59 < zyp> what sort of device is it?
2024-12-18T17:28:11 < jpa-> do you actually need the USB traffic to happen for being able to debug things?
2024-12-18T17:29:13 < jpa-> in some cases, tracing is a reasonable alternative
2024-12-18T17:29:15 < zyp> the USB hardware takes care of NAKing any requests the device is not ready to handle, so for the host it'll just look like regular flow control
2024-12-18T17:30:25 < zyp> unless you have a class driver or other host software that gets upset because flow control is blocking too long and hits a timeout, you won't have any issues
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2024-12-18T17:31:20 < zyp> I guess maybe if you're doing something isochronous like USB audio, the audio driver will get upset about underruns/overruns
2024-12-18T17:31:32 < zyp> but most bulk stuff simply doesn't care and just waits
2024-12-18T17:32:11 < jpa-> linux cdc acm waits pretty long, but linux msc timeouts in 10 seconds i think
2024-12-18T17:34:45 < jpa-> stuff becomes more fun when you have quickly timeouting stuff on both the USB side and on other interfaces on the MCU
2024-12-18T17:34:58 < fenugrec> ^
2024-12-18T17:35:03 < zyp> yeah
2024-12-18T17:35:34 < fenugrec> then you add some kind of side-channel printf logging, but then your bug "disappears"
2024-12-18T17:35:57 < jpa-> itm is nice, it doesn't slow things that much
2024-12-18T17:36:10 < zyp> that's why I wrote this stuff back when I did the initial USB implementation for laks: https://github.com/zyp/laks/blob/main/util/rblog.h
2024-12-18T17:36:32 < jpa-> other way is to just use breakpoints and keep in mind that at some point stuff will go wonky
2024-12-18T17:36:34 < fenugrec> agreed, would be nice. I only ever messed with USB on M0 which lack all the nicer debug features
2024-12-18T17:36:42 < jpa-> and then reset and set breakpoint a bit further away
2024-12-18T17:37:34 < zyp> nowadays if you need fast printf, try this: https://github.com/zyp/smolt
2024-12-18T17:40:26 < fenugrec> at some point I had a fork of zflog, and can also recommend https://github.com/eyalroz/printf for a light printf implem
2024-12-18T17:43:27 < zyp> I looked at rust's defmt recently, it's fairly similar to smolt both in goals and implementation
2024-12-18T18:06:09 < ventyl> zyp: it has vendor-specific interface, no class
2024-12-18T18:08:09 < jpa-> if you know how the protocol works, you could use a custom libusb-based application for testing and set the timeouts high enough
2024-12-18T18:10:47 < ventyl> my problem was more of the nature, that sooner or later requests overflown the tinyusb queue device-side
2024-12-18T18:11:02 < ventyl> but I simply assumed that requests are coming regardless of app
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2024-12-18T20:38:31 < qyx> today I watched my little pony for the first time
2024-12-18T20:38:42 < jbo-> ah nice, that has been a while for me
2024-12-18T20:38:45 < jbo-> Steffanx ^
2024-12-18T20:38:49 < qyx> I have two brain cells less
2024-12-18T20:39:09 < jbo-> rainbowdash, Macintosh, ...
2024-12-18T20:39:53 < jbo-> what was the name of the orange one again?
2024-12-18T20:41:20 < qyx> https://www.reddit.com/r/mylittlepony/comments/12jbfmr/a_comprehensive_guide_to_the_ponies_of_my_little/#lightbox
2024-12-18T20:44:02 < Steffanx> Oh dear jbo-
2024-12-18T20:44:30 < Steffanx> Did you at least watch it without your kids around qyx?
2024-12-18T20:46:57 < jpa-> retardation intensifies
2024-12-18T20:47:12 < qyx> no steff, I have some working brian cells too
2024-12-18T20:47:54 < Steffanx> Poor kids
2024-12-18T20:49:49 < jbo-> The Ren & Stimpy Show can also leave some damage
2024-12-18T20:50:03 < jpa-> how about some cocomelon?
2024-12-18T20:50:21 < jbo-> invader zim!
2024-12-18T20:51:12 < Steffanx> Talking about damage. IRC, ##stm32, with the Finnish and swiss guys ... Damn
2024-12-18T20:51:53 < jpa-> Steffanx: and you have been subjected to this for a third of your life
2024-12-18T20:52:06 < jpa-> how many brain cells do you have left, and how many years will they last?
2024-12-18T20:52:29 < Steffanx> jpa- I fear its even more than a third.. I have to check
2024-12-18T20:53:53 < jbo-> jpa- <3
2024-12-18T20:54:29 < jpa-> jbo-: you've forgiven me?
2024-12-18T20:55:12 < Steffanx> jpa- logs go back to 2011.. so it IS more than a third.. damn
2024-12-18T20:55:24 < jbo-> fairly sure I joined around 2009
2024-12-18T20:55:46 < Steffanx> Back in the izua and dekar #avr time yes
2024-12-18T20:56:39 < jbo-> FreeBSD has come a long way
2024-12-18T20:56:40 < Steffanx> You guys did help me to be sure about something: never become a dad. :P
2024-12-18T20:56:47 < jpa-> 2012-02-27T11:04:25 < Tectu> stm32 looks interesting to me because you don't need special stuff for development     such pro already
2024-12-18T20:56:53 < jbo-> remember the group picture, papa steffan?
2024-12-18T20:56:55 < Steffanx> Even adults can't behave..
2024-12-18T20:57:22 < jpa-> Steffanx: is jbo dad enough to count?
2024-12-18T20:57:25 < Steffanx> Lol ofcourse tectu ;)
2024-12-18T20:57:44 < jbo-> https://github.com/karlp/zypsnips/blob/master/family-photo.jpg
2024-12-18T20:57:55 < jbo-> still salty that karlp didn't at least give credits :p
2024-12-18T20:58:45 < Steffanx> I'm sure you know more about all this jpa- 
2024-12-18T20:58:46 < jbo-> I remember distinctively that karlp asked me if I he can be the ballerina shirt girl
2024-12-18T20:59:11 < jpa-> Steffanx: i heard that he has another one on the way, but refuses to take care of the first one
2024-12-18T20:59:55 < Steffanx> Poor kid.
2024-12-18T21:00:26 < Steffanx> Did you teach yours to do your boring soldering yet?
2024-12-18T21:00:57 < jpa-> soldering is not boring
2024-12-18T21:01:24 < Steffanx> Until you fail a few times.
2024-12-18T21:01:42 < jbo-> jpa- never fails at soldering, he fails at using the parts.
2024-12-18T21:02:20 < jpa-> i bet i fail at soldering the parts, too
2024-12-18T21:02:25 < Steffanx> Maybe that's what he outsourced to swisserland
2024-12-18T21:02:29 < jpa-> but how can i teach what i can't do?
2024-12-18T21:02:29 < Steffanx> Hmm
2024-12-18T21:02:55 < jbo-> jbopcb is real
2024-12-18T21:02:57 < ColdKeyboard> Is there a way to use RTC backup register or Tamper register on STM32L4 as a simple boot counter? Instead of creating .noinit ram space
2024-12-18T21:03:02 < Steffanx> YouTube jpa- 
2024-12-18T21:04:00 < jpa-> ColdKeyboard: what's stopping you?
2024-12-18T21:04:17 < jpa-> you'll need to increment it yourself
2024-12-18T21:04:26 < ColdKeyboard> I guess I just declare a variable at the address of tamper register, use that and and call it a day?
2024-12-18T21:04:55 < jpa-> usually you use the register definitions
2024-12-18T21:05:10 < jbo-> also make sure that you have backup supply hooked up
2024-12-18T21:05:38 < ColdKeyboard> In which .h would I find TAMP_BKPxR ?
2024-12-18T21:05:53 < jpa-> stm32l4xx.h
2024-12-18T21:06:04 < jpa-> probably as TAMP->BKP something
2024-12-18T21:06:27 < ColdKeyboard> Btw I'm using this as "boot" count. Basically if the bootloader detects reset cause was WDT and boot count is ~3. Then load recovery image because the main one is most likely borked
2024-12-18T21:06:56 < jbo-> the way you'd typically handle that is to verify the app image in the bootloader before jumping to it
2024-12-18T21:07:09 < jbo-> simple crc32 is good enough for most scenarios
2024-12-18T21:07:22 < jpa-> borked can be borked by coder, not by corruption :)
2024-12-18T21:07:23 < ColdKeyboard> I do that. But there is still a possibility that new app has a flaw
2024-12-18T21:07:31 < jbo-> aye
2024-12-18T21:07:49 < ColdKeyboard> So if for whatever reason "bad" image is loaded... load the recovery, so you can load the new one :)
2024-12-18T21:08:01 < jbo-> wait...
2024-12-18T21:08:14 < jbo-> why do you need the "good one" to load another one if you have a proper bootloader?
2024-12-18T21:08:31 < jpa-> because over-the-air
2024-12-18T21:08:35 < jpa-> or something like that
2024-12-18T21:08:36 < ColdKeyboard> I'm using the IAP instead of bootloader
2024-12-18T21:08:40 < jbo-> ack
2024-12-18T21:08:47 < ColdKeyboard> The "bootloader" just loads the image from ext flash
2024-12-18T21:08:56 < ColdKeyboard> The app loads the image to ext flash :\
2024-12-18T21:09:14 < jpa-> sounds pretty standard
2024-12-18T21:09:51 < jpa-> https://github.com/stm32duino/Arduino_Core_STM32/blob/main/system/Drivers/CMSIS/Device/ST/STM32L4xx/Include/stm32l422xx.h#L577-L622   anyway, regdefs
2024-12-18T21:11:04 < ColdKeyboard> Oh wow! Thanks! :)
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2024-12-18T21:29:58 < qyx> Steffanx: heh I remember 2012 or so
2024-12-18T21:30:07 < qyx> jpa-: lold at cocomelon
2024-12-18T21:34:23 < qyx> 2012-07-28T19:33:35 -!- qyx_ [~qyx@krtko.org] has joined ##stm32
2024-12-18T21:34:30 < qyx> so I was late nearly ine year
2024-12-18T21:34:45 < qyx> I am here exactly one third of my life
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2024-12-18T21:39:30 < jpa-> i wonder why we are all the same age
2024-12-18T21:39:45 < Steffanx> 13.. right?
2024-12-18T21:40:05 < jpa-> are we the stm32 generation? who will be coding stm32s till we die
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2024-12-18T21:54:42 < qyx> ColdKeyboard: works, used the same mechanism
2024-12-18T21:55:27 < qyx> in my new code I am using a config struct put into the backup sram area
2024-12-18T21:56:02 < qyx> don't forget to zero the bootcount after flashing the recovery image..
2024-12-18T21:57:31 < qyx> jpa-: because we all started usig stm32s when they appeared and we were at uni around that time?
2024-12-18T21:58:00 < jpa-> probably
2024-12-18T21:58:11 < ColdKeyboard> qyx Thanks! I'm still figuring out should I use ll hal or just directly enable/disable WP and write to those registers...
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2024-12-18T22:51:21 < ColdKeyboard> qyx Did you use RTC HAL to read/write backup registers or did you raw write to backup registers?
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2024-12-18T23:26:20 < ColdKeyboard> Or maybe a weird question, but is there a simpler way to store a counter that survies software reset?
2024-12-18T23:30:38 < qyx> I had a service for managing the rtc stuff, internally it was using libooencm3
2024-12-18T23:30:45 < qyx> *libopencm3
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2024-12-18T23:54:42 < nomorekaki> ColdKeyboard: you mean noinit section?
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2024-12-19T02:48:13 < qyx> no, noinit is unusable when you use sleep modes
2024-12-19T02:48:28 < qyx> (depending on the exact mode and mcu)
2024-12-19T02:49:54 < qyx> backup registers/sram are valid options even if you don't have a backup power source
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2024-12-19T03:28:06 < ColdKeyboard> The MCU would never use sleep so I'm not worried about that. It's just convenience
2024-12-19T03:28:50 < ColdKeyboard> But basically I need to detect if the MCU is stuck in "bootloop" where app is halting and WDT is getting triggered
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2024-12-19T03:44:22 < fenugrec> bootloops, sounds like a type of cereal
2024-12-19T03:58:08 < ColdKeyboard> The suggary kind one
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2024-12-19T21:24:41 < qyx> kid asked where do santa's letters go and most importantly, how
2024-12-19T21:24:58 < qyx> so we had to google Svalbard post office trucks
2024-12-19T21:27:55 < aandrew> here in Canada Santa has his own postal code: H0H 0H0
2024-12-19T21:29:19 < qyx> iirc here it is 999 99
2024-12-19T21:35:34 < Steffanx> Here we don't send santa letters. We have "sinterklaas". Some old saint..
2024-12-19T21:36:08 < Steffanx> and his helpers.. black pete.
2024-12-19T21:36:20 < Steffanx> but black pete is racist, so we no have colourful petes
2024-12-19T21:36:37 < Steffanx> *now
2024-12-19T21:41:01 < qyx> and what do they do, collect letters from all children?
2024-12-19T21:46:17 < Steffanx> They used to take the naughty kids in a bag back to spain
2024-12-19T21:46:27 < Steffanx> or bring gifts
2024-12-19T21:47:07 < fenugrec> I thought you had Krampus over there
2024-12-19T21:59:11 < Steffanx> Nah, the people high up in the mountains invented that creature. Here in dutchland we have Black Pete.
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2024-12-20T04:25:42 < qyx> why was the vocal version of Last of the wilds released in jpaland only?
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2024-12-20T09:45:39 < jpa-> heh, RP2350 doesn
2024-12-20T09:45:43 < jpa-> 't have SWO, only 4-bit trace
2024-12-20T09:46:07 < jpa-> finally some real use for orbtrace, except i don't have enough free GPIO to do 4-bit port
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2024-12-20T10:35:34 < zyp> jpa-, just do 1-bit then :p
2024-12-20T10:44:02 < jpa-> heh, maybe :)
2024-12-20T11:03:35 < zyp> I did my first embedded rust firmware last night: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/VkGZO (it's a mess, don't judge :p)
2024-12-20T11:03:59 < zyp> even works: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/iYVcr.png
2024-12-20T11:07:24 < zyp> overall I like the language, and there's some pretty good libraries too, but the overall ecosystem still leaves something to be desired
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2024-12-20T11:35:34 < zyp> next up I'm considering redoing it in zephyr
2024-12-20T11:35:43 < zyp> except there's already a readymade template: https://github.com/zephyrproject-rtos/zephyr/blob/main/samples/bluetooth/bthome_sensor_template/src/main.c
2024-12-20T11:36:06 < zyp> so to make it more fun I'm considering making a C++20 coroutine executor for zephyr
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2024-12-20T14:39:26 < zyp> I had a go at that, zephyr has pretty decent building blocks that I can throw a coroutine API over :)
2024-12-20T14:40:02 < zyp> and it *almost* works
2024-12-20T14:42:18 < zyp> not sure exactly where it's going wrong, I can spawn a task, and it runs and sleeps, but when it's supposed to be awoken again, it's destroyed instead
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2024-12-20T16:59:08 < qyx> zephyr nah
2024-12-20T17:07:13 < zyp> we're about to be transitioning to zephyr at work, so I figured I want to be a bit ahead of the curve
2024-12-20T17:07:52 < zyp> anyway, here's a modified zephyr blinky
2024-12-20T17:09:06 < zyp> async.h is copied as-is from laks, and here's the executor: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/qjOUX
2024-12-20T17:12:20 < zyp> the issue I had earlier was solved by this line: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/qjOUX#line-35, the task object was still thinking it owned the coroutine state and destroyed it too early
2024-12-20T17:13:34 < zyp> I might still be leaking task's coroutine state this way though, I should probably replace the noop_coroutine with a cleanup coroutine
2024-12-20T17:13:54 < zyp> not that it matters because tasks rarely die and get recreated anyway
2024-12-20T17:19:25 < veverak> eeeeh, I wonder if that reitnerpret casting is really necessary?
2024-12-20T17:19:31 < veverak> last time I did coros for embedded it was definetly not
2024-12-20T17:21:26 < zyp> that's because I'm integrating with zephyr's work queue callbacks
2024-12-20T17:21:51 < veverak> ah, so context
2024-12-20T17:23:09 < zyp> the callback gets a pointer to the k_work object, and since it's at the beginning of the class, it's a simple matter of casting it to get a class pointer
2024-12-20T17:23:43 < veverak> anyway, last time  I tried coros at embedded it was pretty pleasant in the end
2024-12-20T17:23:57 < zyp> yeah, I've been using it in laks for a couple of years
2024-12-20T17:24:03 < veverak> I kinda dont like that I had to write so much stuff that should already exists as a lib...
2024-12-20T17:24:06 < veverak> but
2024-12-20T17:24:18 < veverak> I think that C++ coros have a great potentiall :)
2024-12-20T17:24:42 < zyp> yeah
2024-12-20T17:25:36 < zyp> I'm gonna try introducing it at work
2024-12-20T17:27:10 < veverak> sure, do you want to hire senior C++ developer who can write coro-lib easily?
2024-12-20T17:27:20 < veverak> (by writing I of course mean stealing what I did previously for my projects)
2024-12-20T17:27:30 < veverak> (ah, its opensource, so no stealing :) )
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2024-12-20T22:09:22 < machinehum> https://youtu.be/wBvLIRPOm3E?si=sTVEThnqqt0TAmdz
2024-12-20T22:09:41 < machinehum> tj miller is funny as shit
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2024-12-20T22:45:52 < Steffanx> Shit yes.
2024-12-20T22:49:08 < Steffanx> Talking about shit. So ST forked open OpenOCD, added support for H5 like 1.5 years ago and the real OpenOCD still doesn't have it?!
2024-12-20T22:50:10 < Steffanx> "STMicroelectronics is actively working at merging these modifications in the official OpenOCD." .. my ass
2024-12-20T22:53:42 < veverak> lol, I encountered that a while ago
2024-12-20T22:53:48 < veverak> yeah its just ...
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2024-12-20T23:11:06 < Steffanx> I would reflash it to jlink but.. it's an stlink v3 -_-
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--- Day changed Sat Dec 21 2024
2024-12-21T00:14:23 < zyp> why are you using openocd?
2024-12-21T00:21:27 < qyx> is that bad?
2024-12-21T00:22:31 < zyp> isn't that why Steffanx is complaining?
2024-12-21T00:23:03 < qyx> but we are a grumpy channel, complaining isn't bad at all
2024-12-21T00:27:37 < nohit> is it possible to contribute ST's work on H5 to openocd if they are not doing it themselves ?
2024-12-21T00:28:09 < nohit> like using their commits and credit the work to them
2024-12-21T00:28:28 < nohit> i would need H5 support for openocd
2024-12-21T00:40:20 < machinehum> Steffanx: fine whatever
2024-12-21T00:40:46 < machinehum> What should I do in .nl
2024-12-21T00:41:36 < qyx> experience some flatearhing
2024-12-21T00:42:01 < machinehum> I'm more of a cube earth guy
2024-12-21T00:43:12 < machinehum> when calculating derivatives shit gets fucking real in some places
2024-12-21T00:51:47 < specing> nohit: should be possible if openOCD is strong copyleft (and so they can't make it incompatible)
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2024-12-21T02:03:15 < Steffanx> Smoke weed and a walk in the red light district machinehum 
2024-12-21T02:05:17 < Steffanx> Because all at hand was a nucleo and PC zyp.
2024-12-21T02:15:36 < zyp> and?
2024-12-21T02:16:45 < zyp> I believe both blackmagic, pyocd and probe-rs would support stlink out of the box, and I'd try all of the three before openocd
2024-12-21T02:17:20 < Steffanx> Oh maybe.
2024-12-21T02:18:36 < qyx> is pyocd worth it?
2024-12-21T02:18:39 < qyx> never tried it
2024-12-21T02:19:42 < Steffanx> Worth it over openocd apparently ;)
2024-12-21T02:20:20 < qyx> all interweb says it is significantly less capable
2024-12-21T02:21:01 < zyp> pyocd tends to have pretty good target support (especially since it can use cmsis packs), so I sometimes resort to that or cross test with that when blackmagic chokes on something
2024-12-21T02:21:22 < zyp> but blackmagic is what I know, so that's what I usually use
2024-12-21T02:22:31 < zyp> and I've briefly used probe-rs since that's well integrated in the whole embedded rust ecosystem
2024-12-21T02:22:48 < zyp> seems to work well, except I haven't used it without training wheels on yet
2024-12-21T02:24:57 < zyp> so I took the nrf54 zephyr example code I were playing with earlier today, ported it to this nrf52 sensor board I have and reimplemented the equivalent bthome code to what I did in rust yesterday: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/BWqa7
2024-12-21T02:25:45 < zyp> so far I quite like zephyr actually
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2024-12-21T11:35:54 < karlp> yea, embasy was just getting started last time I tried rust shit. it's like round 3 of "use rust, it's great, as long as you use the right shit"
2024-12-21T11:37:00 < zyp> embassy is cute, it has similar goals to parts of laks
2024-12-21T11:40:41 < zyp> my biggest issue with the rust embedded world so far is that everything is fragmented into little crates that takes effort to strap together, and the less popular third party ones might not be updated to be compatible with the current core ones
2024-12-21T11:47:36 < veverak> speaking of Zephyr, was thinking about touching it
2024-12-21T11:47:50 < veverak> what interests me: what is the build system like?
2024-12-21T11:48:00 < zyp> kconfig/cmake
2024-12-21T11:48:06 < veverak> first impression was not great as I felt like "wait, why is it not just cmake and yet another new thing?"
2024-12-21T11:48:13 < zyp> it is cmake
2024-12-21T11:48:19 < veverak> yeah
2024-12-21T11:48:27 < veverak> but thin layer over cmake or thick?
2024-12-21T11:49:08 < zyp> well, the kconfig stuff is responsible for selecting what to build
2024-12-21T11:49:19 < zyp> and then there's the whole devicetree thing that describes the hardware as well
2024-12-21T11:50:14 < zyp> which I very much like the idea of, because it makes it easy to build the same application for a bunch of different hardwares
2024-12-21T11:52:51 < veverak> yeah, I propably just have to get my hands on it
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2024-12-21T12:25:45 < qyx> I hate zephyr for exactly two things, cmake and devicetree
2024-12-21T12:26:31 < qyx> because my impression was it is using DT for the sake of using DT
2024-12-21T12:27:18 < zyp> no, it's using devicetree for the sake of defining the hardware, it's great
2024-12-21T12:27:50 < qyx> whether you write devicetree or a thin port layer (exactly like in linux), it doesn't matter
2024-12-21T12:28:43 < qyx> you are just replacing procedural definition with a declarative one
2024-12-21T12:30:51 < qyx> with DT you are always left with "where are the bindings..", "oh, this driver doesn't support this", "was this just silently ignored?", "where are the constant definitions", "fuk I need to recompile this, are they really using a C preprocessor?"
2024-12-21T12:31:28 < qyx> various parts of various ecosystems are using DTs differently and that makes me wonder every single time I touch DT
2024-12-21T12:32:16 < qyx> I guess linux is now doing (or want to do, idk) some validation at some point now when bindings are yaml files
2024-12-21T12:33:33 < zyp> the advantage from my perspective is the layering
2024-12-21T12:34:38 < qyx> that's true but not intuitive enough for my liking
2024-12-21T12:34:56 < qyx> oh the schema thing is already 5y old, git blame says
2024-12-21T12:35:13 < zyp> implementation wise, I'm not too happy about the huge pile of preprocessor macros this is based on
2024-12-21T12:36:10 < qyx> I understand the idea is probably very old and the output has to be easily readable machine-side
2024-12-21T12:36:21 < qyx> but now they are using yaml for schemas, why not yaml for DT too?
2024-12-21T12:36:30 < qyx> it supports inclusion, references and other things
2024-12-21T12:36:32 < zyp> indeed
2024-12-21T12:36:36 < qyx> and can be converted to bson/cbor
2024-12-21T12:37:07 < zyp> the devicetree stuff is somewhat similar to the platform definition stuff I made for laks: https://github.com/zyp/laks/tree/main/platforms
2024-12-21T12:37:11 < zyp> which is yaml based
2024-12-21T12:37:24 < qyx> if I had to do this (on my todo), I would use yaml too
2024-12-21T12:37:32 < zyp> I don't have a board layer in it, but I've considered it
2024-12-21T12:37:58 < zyp> and I wouldn't generate defines, I'd generate constexpr c++
2024-12-21T12:39:08 < zyp> that's what I already do for peripheral instances and other stuff like interrupts
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2024-12-21T20:50:53 < ds2> Is today or tonight a 24hour darkness night for the great white north?
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2024-12-21T21:40:15 < BrainDamage> winter's solstice already passed, but generally, depending on latitude it's not a single day that day/night spans over 24h
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2024-12-21T23:22:21 < machinehum> You guys know amlogic?
2024-12-21T23:23:15 -!- ferdna [~ferdna@user/ferdna] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
2024-12-21T23:26:49 < machinehum> Seems like kinda a non-chinese allwinner
2024-12-21T23:28:27 < machinehum> https://linux-meson.com/
--- Day changed Sun Dec 22 2024
2024-12-22T00:02:47 < Steffanx> When are you going to visit dutchland machinehum ? 
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2024-12-22T00:27:34 < qyx> so, I somewhat know python, qt, some html and css, but I don't know javascript much
2024-12-22T00:27:46 < qyx> how to combine these all to create a webapp?
2024-12-22T00:28:44 < zyp> design goals?
2024-12-22T00:47:35 < qyx> hm a configuration webui with realtime data
2024-12-22T00:48:54 < qyx> I'll probably just do a MVP and hope somebody will take over
2024-12-22T00:50:18 < zyp> if you're gonna do some modern web whatever, you'd be using typescript, not javascript
2024-12-22T00:53:36 -!- Livio [~livio@user/livio] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
2024-12-22T00:58:50 < qyx> why is living so hard
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2024-12-22T01:21:23 < qyx> talking to my ai friend, I don't see much benefit compared to es6 (let's say I want dynamic typing)
2024-12-22T01:22:00 < zyp> don't fight it, just get with the program
2024-12-22T01:37:08 < qyx> nah
2024-12-22T01:37:28 < qyx> I really hate how modern development is done
2024-12-22T01:38:21 < zyp> find your favorite libs, make something with them?
2024-12-22T01:38:54 < qyx> imagine using python enhanced c23 with decorators, transpiling it to c89, because that's what msvc supports?
2024-12-22T01:39:04 < qyx> because that's what typescript basically is
2024-12-22T01:39:31 < zyp> isn't that how C++ started too? :)
2024-12-22T01:40:00 < qyx> "oh we like es6 but browsers don't sopprt it properly, so let's transpile to es4/5 and when we are already doing it, glue some shit on top of it to make it more cool"
2024-12-22T01:41:42 < qyx> also, every single npm run in my life installed another 253 additional packages
2024-12-22T01:42:14 < zyp> just wait until wasm gets dom access :)
2024-12-22T01:42:36 < qyx> was checking that too
2024-12-22T01:42:43 < qyx> qt6 wasm
2024-12-22T01:43:11 < zyp> I haven't tried playing with wasm myself yet, but I see other people make pretty neat shit with it
2024-12-22T01:44:35 < zyp> e.g. this is pretty cool: https://amaranth-lang.org/play/
2024-12-22T01:44:49 < zyp> full fpga toolchain running in your browser
2024-12-22T01:45:08 < qyx> did you try ts yourself?
2024-12-22T01:45:44 < zyp> I've written a few webapps in ts, yes
2024-12-22T01:46:05 < zyp> I don't love it, but it's far from the worst language I've touched
2024-12-22T01:46:17 < qyx> what "build system" did you use?
2024-12-22T01:47:01 < qyx> and I assume you used npm o manage packages
2024-12-22T01:47:20 < zyp> whatever angular defaults to, I think
2024-12-22T01:48:03 < qyx> nah angular, worms emerging from all directions
2024-12-22T01:48:09 < zyp> I remember messing with build systems on some older projects, way back, but the most recent ones have been pretty plain angular setups
2024-12-22T01:48:16 < qyx> I guess I'll try the webpack thing
2024-12-22T01:48:28 < zyp> ah, that's what it was called
2024-12-22T01:48:41 < qyx> good
2024-12-22T01:48:51 < zyp> so I've messed around with that before, and I think that's also what later angular now defaults to
2024-12-22T01:51:07 < zyp> anyway, if you know html and would like to think html, you should give angular a try
2024-12-22T01:57:06 < qyx> the ui is gonna be onsen2 or plain bootstrap with winbox.js
2024-12-22T01:58:01 < zyp> never heard of
2024-12-22T01:58:18 < zyp> but looks like it works with angular
2024-12-22T01:58:20 < zyp> > Based on Web Components, and provides bindings for Angular 1, 2, React and Vue.js.
2024-12-22T01:58:28 < qyx> onsen2 is good, I already did two things with it
2024-12-22T01:58:35 < qyx> yes
2024-12-22T01:59:07 < qyx> but kinda useless here because this is not much intended for phone usage
2024-12-22T01:59:44 < qyx> I want something remotely similar to the old mikrotik's winbox
2024-12-22T02:03:35 < zyp> https://onsen.io/v2/guide/angular2/index.html#ngx-onsenui-essentials <- looks just like any other lib of ui components for angular
2024-12-22T02:07:26 < zyp> compare to e.g. https://material.angular.io/components/button/overview (click the «Show code» button)
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2024-12-22T02:14:14 < Steffanx> Qyx doing "windowed" web apps...? I hope I never have to use it. 
2024-12-22T02:16:26 < qyx> yes because it is an app, not a page
2024-12-22T02:17:01 < qyx> not going to dump the data component state and view just because I want to view the log in parallel
2024-12-22T02:17:28 < qyx> and idk about tabs
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2024-12-22T02:24:17 < zyp> qyx, here's an example of a page in angular: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/lNsdu
2024-12-22T02:25:03 < zyp> this is the product page from my webshop, i.e. the template behind e.g. this: https://store.zyp.no/product/orbtrace-mini
2024-12-22T02:26:08 < zyp> and this is the typescript behind it: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/g02KO
2024-12-22T02:27:25 < zyp> pretty much just boilerplate hooking up the template to a predefined graphql query
2024-12-22T02:28:52 < qyx> oh I am definitely not doing a line of javascript server side
2024-12-22T02:29:22 < zyp> and here's the GQL: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/rgzJl
2024-12-22T02:29:29 < zyp> indeed
2024-12-22T02:29:49 < qyx> is the templating done client side?
2024-12-22T02:30:05 < zyp> all of this is done client side
2024-12-22T02:30:29 < zyp> I didn't write anything serverside for my store
2024-12-22T02:30:30 < qyx> for a context, the webui app is gonna run on top of openwrt or stm32
2024-12-22T02:30:54 < qyx> communicatig with the "server" using TBD
2024-12-22T02:31:42 < zyp> yeah, graphql sounds unsuitable for baremetal
2024-12-22T02:32:15 < qyx> you are trying to scare me off
2024-12-22T02:32:23 < zyp> if you were doing a python backend or similar, I'd recommend graphql, otherwise go with rest or something
2024-12-22T02:32:40 < qyx> python3 or micropython backend
2024-12-22T02:33:04 < qyx> probably rest embedding some sort of unresty rpc
2024-12-22T02:33:09 < zyp> I did a workproject a couple of years ago with angular and rest, that was before I did the storefront
2024-12-22T02:33:35 < zyp> backend was python on an imx6 or something
2024-12-22T02:33:37 < qyx> or even not a rest, websockets only
2024-12-22T02:33:49 < qyx> yeah I have imx6 too
2024-12-22T02:33:51 < zyp> if I were doing that again now, I'd do graphql, definitely
2024-12-22T02:34:44 < qyx> but this is not crud, how does graphql apply?
2024-12-22T02:35:44 < zyp> so, in this work project I spent a bunch of time adjusting the available rest calls/returned data/whatever
2024-12-22T02:36:22 < qyx> hm they are saying they support live data
2024-12-22T02:36:49 < zyp> with graphql you don't have to think about any of that shit, you just define what objects you have, what data is available on each and how they relate to each other, and then the client submits a query for the combination of data it needs
2024-12-22T02:36:59 < zyp> yeah, it can do subscriptions over websocket too
2024-12-22T02:37:20 < zyp> I've used this lib for a couple of toy projects: https://ariadnegraphql.org/
2024-12-22T02:37:56 < qyx> but this locks me into linux server
2024-12-22T02:40:17 < zyp> idk if you could shoehorn it into micropython, it's not like you're gonna expose it to the web and have it handle tons of concurrent visitors, so if it fits within available memory and whatever, it'd probably work
2024-12-22T02:44:50 < zyp> and yeah, here's how ariadne does live data: https://ariadnegraphql.org/docs/subscriptions#subscriber
2024-12-22T02:45:44 < zyp> server side is just a generator instead of a function
2024-12-22T02:46:46 < zyp> and the client decides through GQL when it's subscribing what information it wants
2024-12-22T02:49:32 < zyp> e.g. like this: https://www.apollographql.com/docs/react/data/subscriptions#client-side
2024-12-22T03:12:58 < nomorekaki> can you recommend oven temperature profile controller?
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2024-12-22T12:01:57 < karlp> so graphql is just like any old ORM layer from django or ruby then? except cooler?
2024-12-22T12:36:44 < zyp> it's not an ORM layer
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2024-12-22T12:56:37 < zyp> it doesn't even have to involve a database :)
2024-12-22T12:59:10 < ventyl> what would I be doing without unit tests?
2024-12-22T13:00:03 < Steffanx> Just release your software and hope for the best.
2024-12-22T13:00:13 < Steffanx> Field tests.
2024-12-22T13:01:02 < ventyl> Did just that and it failed.
2024-12-22T13:01:10 < ventyl> -> requirements were bad
2024-12-22T13:01:52 < zyp> karlp, the point of graphql is that the backend API design doesn't have to care about what combinations of data the frontend needs, e.g. if you're doing a «list_products» call in a store backend you don't need to care which information about the products the client needs
2024-12-22T13:03:53 < zyp> so you don't get the situation when the frontend inevitably at some point needs some information that isn't included and you either need to go edit the backend or do multiple requests
2024-12-22T13:04:56 < ventyl> it is included all the time, even if it is not needed?
2024-12-22T13:05:04 < ventyl> that sounds like a mild waste of bandwidth
2024-12-22T13:05:25 < zyp> no, the whole point is that the client requests exactly what it needs
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2024-12-22T13:08:15 < zyp> e.g. here's the query my client does to list products in a category: https://paste.jvnv.net/view/tgkGn
2024-12-22T13:08:30 < ventyl> that makes sense if your backend is just a very thin layer basically orchestrating auth and enforcing rules
2024-12-22T13:09:04 < zyp> yes
2024-12-22T13:09:53 < zyp> but as I said the backend doesn't have to be backed by a database
2024-12-22T13:10:40 < ventyl> sure
2024-12-22T13:24:08 < qyx> ventyl: did you fail?
2024-12-22T13:35:06 < ventyl> qyx: yes but yes
2024-12-22T13:40:26 < Steffanx> You didn't fail. You just discovered a bug. Or a missing feature.
2024-12-22T13:46:13 < ventyl> or unveiled another bit of the USB protocol
2024-12-22T14:03:20 < machinehum> Steffanx: today
2024-12-22T14:03:39 < machinehum> My klm flight goes through Amsterdam
2024-12-22T14:09:52 < Steffanx> Ah youre just in amsterdam. Maybe you can invite mawk. Hes much closer to amsterdam than i am
2024-12-22T14:10:01 < Steffanx> although in dutchland everything is nearby ofcourse
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2024-12-22T15:47:45 < nomorekaki> how noisy wire potentiometers are during adjusting?
2024-12-22T15:48:09 < nomorekaki> I want multiple turn potentiometer
2024-12-22T15:48:50 < jpa-> good ones not very noisy
2024-12-22T15:49:19 < nomorekaki> let say I want to emulate a battery or NTC
2024-12-22T15:49:38 < nomorekaki> battery being op amp drived npn
2024-12-22T15:50:07 < jpa-> then just stick a capacitor on it to filter out the noise
2024-12-22T15:50:19 < nomorekaki> ntc just potentiometer + offset resistor
2024-12-22T15:50:45 < nomorekaki> jpa-: that's practical
2024-12-22T15:50:47 < nomorekaki> thanks
2024-12-22T15:54:44 < nomorekaki> I have used multiturn trimmers for such but that sucks
2024-12-22T15:55:00 < nomorekaki> big knob yes
2024-12-22T15:57:05 < jpa-> better ones even have noise spec, e.g. https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/nidec-components-corporation/M-13055K/4754872  specs +- 20 ohm noise at 4000 RPM
2024-12-22T15:59:28 < nomorekaki> how do you know this?
2024-12-22T15:59:53 < jpa-> it says it in the datasheet
2024-12-22T16:00:14 < jpa-> err
2024-12-22T16:00:15 < jpa-> 4 RPM
2024-12-22T16:00:17 < jpa-> :)
2024-12-22T16:00:24 < nomorekaki> but you have experience from these?
2024-12-22T16:00:58 < jpa-> sometimes, i built a DIY signal gen when i was beginning electronics
2024-12-22T16:01:15 < jpa-> crappy pots were crappy, good ones were good.. i'm not sure if that was much of a surprise
2024-12-22T16:01:25 < jpa-> some circuits also tolerate crappy pots better than others
2024-12-22T16:05:43 < nomorekaki> for some reason there was crappy pots in crappy amplifiers and hifi-sets in 90s
2024-12-22T16:05:49 < nomorekaki> and 80s
2024-12-22T16:06:27 < jpa-> there are still, my kitchen radio crackles like crazy
2024-12-22T16:07:07 < nomorekaki> even my DAC
2024-12-22T16:07:34 < nomorekaki> M-Audio whatever headphone knob makes crackles
2024-12-22T16:07:57 < nomorekaki> at least it doesn't go mono randomly
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2024-12-22T16:25:19 < nomorekaki> TIL ceramical tuning flat head screw driver
2024-12-22T16:29:31 < nomorekaki> I have been turning trimmers like a fool with just anything that has fitting flat head
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2024-12-22T17:17:40 < nomorekaki> sometiems with fingernail
2024-12-22T17:25:24 < fenugrec> IIRC if your pot has DC current through the wiper, expect noisier operation
2024-12-22T17:41:20 < Ecco> Heya :)
2024-12-22T17:41:25 < Ecco> I'm trying to fix a microwave oven
2024-12-22T17:41:50 < Ecco> It was working fine yesterday, and I used it for like an hour straight to cook some stuff
2024-12-22T17:41:56 < Ecco> Today, it doesn't even turn on
2024-12-22T17:42:00 < Ecco> I opened it
2024-12-22T17:42:09 < Ecco> There are a couple thermal switches
2024-12-22T17:42:23 < Ecco> one is a closed contact (i.e. continuity tester beeps)
2024-12-22T17:42:28 < Ecco> the other one does *not* beep
2024-12-22T17:42:47 < Ecco> So I'm trying to figure out if it's broken (overheat) or if it's supposed to be an open contact by default
2024-12-22T17:43:15 < Ecco> It looks kind of like this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/133959449593
2024-12-22T17:43:56 < Ecco> Back says "NT101 KIE" and front says "N60 70 7Z17"
2024-12-22T17:55:32 < jpa-> nomorekaki: those ceramic screwdrivers mostly matter for RF caps
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2024-12-22T18:41:50 < hsv> Ecco: that's a thermostat switch (as it says)
2024-12-22T18:43:47 < hsv> closed = undertemp.  it should self reset.
2024-12-22T18:45:55 < hsv> you'll find it cheaper elsewhere
2024-12-22T18:49:13 < hsv> try putting it in the fridge
2024-12-22T18:52:59 < hsv> seems they do come in normally-open and normally-closed so ignore what i said ^
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2024-12-22T20:51:42 < nomorekaki> Ecco: careful with those caps
2024-12-22T21:29:12 < nomorekaki> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWkd1AkHfmw
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2024-12-23T01:48:30 < karlp> zyp: it's still an ORM, you've just moved the query language to the frontend, which was kind aalways an option dependingon how much you wanted to validated "sql" 
2024-12-23T01:49:25 < karlp> I'm sur eit's  nicer to  use though, it doesn't soound bad.
2024-12-23T01:49:34 < karlp> just sounds like an evolution of it
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2024-12-23T03:00:04 < qyx> zyp: I had some time so I hot npm, typescript, onsen and webpack working
2024-12-23T03:00:10 < qyx> *got
2024-12-23T03:03:40 < qyx> I have nothing done yet and it already has 204 packages, prod bundle is 900 KB and it compiles 12 seconds
2024-12-23T03:04:21 < qyx> with this pace I am reaching 3450 packages, 25 MB bundle and 3 hours compile time at the end
2024-12-23T03:15:14 < fenugrec> sounds like progress
2024-12-23T03:15:23 < fenugrec> Modern Web ftw
2024-12-23T03:22:29 < qyx> in a hindsight I fail to see a remarkable improvement compared to using es6 features a managing those few packages on my own, without using webpack bundles
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2024-12-23T13:56:34 < Steffanx> Time to go vue qyx . Its a smaller than Angular (by default). And a short(er) learning curve. 
2024-12-23T13:57:08 < Steffanx> (and the next one will tell you to go React, and the next svelte and then .. )
2024-12-23T15:11:31 < mawk> I don't like js frameworks
2024-12-23T15:11:34 < mawk> jquery at most
2024-12-23T15:12:02 < mawk> http://vanilla-js.com/
2024-12-23T15:15:51 < Steffanx> Ok
2024-12-23T15:17:36 -!- Livio [~livio@user/livio] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
2024-12-23T15:17:41 < jbo-> nein
2024-12-23T15:20:48 < BrainDamage> my solution for writing javascript is pretending I am illiterate and offload it to anyone else
2024-12-23T15:21:10 < BrainDamage> including untrained pets
2024-12-23T15:21:29 < Steffanx> Was ist mit dein loss jbo- ?
2024-12-23T15:26:14 < jbo-> +1
2024-12-23T15:56:21 < qyx> I am starting to lean towards dumping all the webpack abomination
2024-12-23T15:56:45 < qyx> and just use plain js without typescript, with es6 features
2024-12-23T15:58:11 < Steffanx> just hire someone to do it
2024-12-23T15:59:23 < Steffanx> jbo- provides services nowadays i heard
2024-12-23T15:59:34 < jbo-> yes
2024-12-23T16:00:18 < qyx> Steffanx: any monkey should be able to use a package manager and packer, especially with years of stm32 experience
2024-12-23T16:00:45 < qyx> so either the tool is a parody or the documentation is wrong or not concise enough
2024-12-23T16:01:41 < qyx> if I open an url-loader docs and it says it will load the file as a base64 data url, why the hell it loads the file with module.exports = ""..?
2024-12-23T16:02:51 < qyx> indeed I have set esModule: false
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2024-12-23T21:05:44 < catphish> is STM32WB worthwhile for zigbee or should one just give in and use an ESP32?
2024-12-23T21:18:09 < catphish> it does look good, will have a play :)
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2024-12-24T00:04:32 < catphish> ooo it has a nucleo too, and the external components are simple enough, looks awesome
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2024-12-24T00:14:06 < qyx> ok so js nor ts has named parameters/arguments
2024-12-24T00:14:28 < qyx> they are recommending simulating the functionality with a data class
2024-12-24T00:15:13  * qyx returns back to 1999 when this became possible in plain c99 with anonymous designated struct initializers
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2024-12-24T02:28:43 < zyp> I made something fun: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/ZksEr.mp4
2024-12-24T02:34:16 < qyx> looks pro
2024-12-24T02:35:40 < zyp> I mean, the application is https://github.com/wolfpld/tracy, it's normally a host application profiler
2024-12-24T02:36:54 < zyp> I figured I wanted to have a look at how hard it'd be to feed it custom data instead derived from microcontroller trace events
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2024-12-24T20:45:56 < qyx> kid got a RC monstertruck but the remote has only about 3m range
2024-12-24T20:46:53 < qyx> I need to slightly upgrade that
2024-12-24T20:54:37 < jpa-> proportional control or the stupid on/off stuff that is so common nowadays?
2024-12-24T21:03:35 < qyx> yes it is on-off only
2024-12-24T21:05:01 < qyx> it says 27.145 MHz
2024-12-24T21:10:56 < jpa-> heh, 3 meters at 27 MHz is basically just near field capacitive coupling
2024-12-24T21:13:07 < Steffanx> Antenna broken or something?
2024-12-24T21:17:29 < qyx> I would say it has no antenna
2024-12-24T21:17:50 < qyx> n 27.145 xtals are available, should be easy to OOK from stm32 MCO
2024-12-24T21:18:22 < qyx> or timer + manchestered uart
2024-12-24T21:18:33 < qyx> using the IR timer combination logic
2024-12-24T21:25:35 < Steffanx> i see
2024-12-24T21:36:10 < qyx> yeah the transmitter completely lacks any ground plane
2024-12-24T21:36:16 < qyx> antenna is a coiled whip
2024-12-24T21:36:53 < qyx> if I poke the negative battery terminak with a screwdriver, it works
2024-12-24T21:37:29 < qyx> so I either replace the antenna with a dipole or hang a wire from the battery compartment of the transmitter
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2024-12-25T00:35:26 < ventyl> warranty void in 3, 2, 1
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2024-12-25T10:47:46 < jpa-> qyx: maybe some metal tape would help provide ground plane
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2024-12-25T16:02:51 < Steffanx> Is Xmas treating you well jpa- ?
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2024-12-25T17:09:40 < Laurenceb_> happy Christmas all
2024-12-25T17:10:03 < Laurenceb_> STM32N looks insane
2024-12-25T17:10:36 < Laurenceb_> gigabit ethernet and neural accel thing that actually looks decent
2024-12-25T17:10:47 < Laurenceb_> pity ADC is F1 tier
2024-12-25T17:11:05 < Laurenceb_> sigma delta interface looks really good tho
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2024-12-25T23:05:21 < karlp> good chat
2024-12-25T23:10:21 < zyp> thanks
2024-12-25T23:11:31 < qyx> you are welcome
2024-12-25T23:21:24 < Steffanx> Awesome!
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2024-12-26T00:15:23 < qyx> so, christmas innovation can continue
2024-12-26T00:15:35 < zyp> ok
2024-12-26T00:37:20 < qyx> we haven't heard about your shop innovation for a longer time zyp
2024-12-26T00:38:39 < zyp> what innovation?
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2024-12-26T01:30:14 < qyx> new shop equipment, 3 phase transformer, robot arm, cnc plasma cutter, snow report, rock cracking around the house, etc.
2024-12-26T01:30:54 < qyx> too much work, I miss normal life
2024-12-26T01:35:10 < zyp> ah, haven't had much time to spend at the workshop recently
2024-12-26T01:37:57 < qyx> I am a bit .. paused too, lately
2024-12-26T01:38:09 < qyx> but the new year will resolve all those issues!
2024-12-26T01:38:12 < qyx> (as always)
2024-12-26T01:40:53 < zyp> I'm still toying around with tracy, seems like it'll work well to visualize coroutines: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/WW3pP.png
2024-12-26T01:41:03 < zyp> (synthetic data)
2024-12-26T01:44:01 < zyp> I need a way to actually emit those trace events from the target, so I'm considering adding it to smolt
2024-12-26T01:45:05 < zyp> smolt already has infrastructure for encoding a bunch of static data into a tag, combining it with dynamic data if necessary, and emitting it all over e.g. ITM
2024-12-26T01:45:51 < zyp> so all I really need is to add a set of trace events that can also be encoded into the tag
2024-12-26T01:47:36 < zyp> the issue is that the host side tools for smolt are python, and orbtracy is rust, so bridging the two will take a bit of effort
2024-12-26T01:49:46 < zyp> but probably less than doing a pure-rust smolt decoder
2024-12-26T01:55:54 < qyx> are you fully into rust now?
2024-12-26T02:04:50 < zyp> define «fully into»
2024-12-26T02:06:13 < zyp> I wrote some new orbuculum infrastructure in rust as a test project, and now orbtracy is leveraging that infrastructure
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2024-12-26T02:15:26 < zyp> language wise, I think rust is great, has a bunch of advantages over c++
2024-12-26T02:15:38 < zyp> but ecosystem-wise, my feelings is a bit more mixed
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2024-12-26T02:36:23 < qyx> wouldnyou consider it usable for eg. writing drivers? that is, having some basic framework or method to properly access registers, having a cross compiler and having a sane way to interface with c/c++ code?
2024-12-26T02:38:09 < zyp> define drivers
2024-12-26T02:39:41 < qyx> hm, for example a high level driver for a SPI ethernet MAC/PHY
2024-12-26T02:39:57 < qyx> I am avoidig the name "HAL"
2024-12-26T02:40:15 < zyp> like https://github.com/embassy-rs/embassy/tree/main/embassy-net-wiznet ?
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2024-12-26T02:42:08 < qyx> a bit but less ugly code
2024-12-26T02:43:07 < zyp> what's wrong with that code?
2024-12-26T02:43:13 < zyp> (I haven't looked)
2024-12-26T02:43:58 < zyp> looks cleaner than the rust code I write…
2024-12-26T02:45:00 < qyx> it is probably a matter of perception
2024-12-26T02:45:30 < zyp> anyway, one of the really neat parts about rust is the traits stuff
2024-12-26T02:45:33 < qyx> I can't exactly define why it looks ugly to me
2024-12-26T02:45:46 < zyp> so that lib says «It supports any SPI driver implementing embedded-hal-async.»
2024-12-26T02:46:12 < zyp> embedded-hal-async is a library containing traits for e.g. a SPI API
2024-12-26T02:46:40 < zyp> a trait is kinda like a concept in C++, but more explicit
2024-12-26T02:46:58 < zyp> more like an interface in java maybe, I don't know enough java to really say
2024-12-26T02:47:00 < bitmask> Merry Christmas!
2024-12-26T02:47:58 < zyp> so those embedded-hal-async traits are *the* traits to use when doing embedded rust
2024-12-26T02:48:11 < zyp> and then you can mix and match components based on them
2024-12-26T02:49:08 < zyp> if you want to interface to c/c++ code, you'd probably want to have some c/c++ bindings implementing some common traits
2024-12-26T03:02:27 < qyx> so I have to use some predefined interfaces?
2024-12-26T03:02:37 < qyx> I mean, I should
2024-12-26T03:21:10 < zyp> you have to use predefined interface to be compatible with preexisting code, yes, that goes for any language
2024-12-26T03:22:10 < zyp> my point is that in rust, predefined interfaces can be libraries on their own, that a bunch of other libraries provides implementations for
2024-12-26T03:26:14 < qyx> that is true for nearly all programming languages?
2024-12-26T03:26:26 < qyx> I would say it is ecosystem-defined
2024-12-26T03:27:14 < qyx> exactly like pip is "the official" package repository for python not because python supports it but because people decided so
2024-12-26T03:27:51 < zyp> hmm?
2024-12-26T03:27:54 < qyx> there is no such thing for C++, and that's not because C++ not supporting it, it does
2024-12-26T03:28:20 < zyp> what are you arguing now?
2024-12-26T03:28:29 < qyx> I am not arguing
2024-12-26T03:28:54 < qyx> just saying that imho the decision of making interfaces available as packages is not rust's feature
2024-12-26T03:29:15 < qyx> it is applicable to all languages, but the concept is kinda new
2024-12-26T03:29:53 < qyx> ok not all but at least to those supporting interfaces of some kind
2024-12-26T03:31:22 < zyp> that's what I mean, in rust, traits are a first class language concept of their own, where it makes sense to have traits as their own library packages
2024-12-26T03:31:37 < zyp> I'm not saying it can't be done in other languages
2024-12-26T03:32:01 < zyp> nobody stops you from making a C++ library only containing concepts
2024-12-26T03:34:24 < zyp> as for «official package repo», I think conan is attempting to be one for C/C++
2024-12-26T03:37:58 < qyx> hm never used it
2024-12-26T03:38:18 < zyp> me neither, but I've spotted conanfiles around in various libs
2024-12-26T04:24:31 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/2Stzj.png
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2024-12-26T10:47:08 < ventyl> I think that conan is *the* official repo for C++ as used in automotive
2024-12-26T11:01:03 < jpa-> who gets to say it is "official"?
2024-12-26T11:03:43 < ventyl> basically your supply chain
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2024-12-26T12:43:46 < veverak> ventyl: got any data for that?
2024-12-26T12:43:59 < veverak> I was not impressed with conan and wanted to try vcpkg :)
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2024-12-26T14:23:58 < ventyl> veverak: vcpkg is IMHO hacked together
2024-12-26T14:24:09 < ventyl> no surprise as it was created by microsoft
2024-12-26T14:25:00 < ventyl> veverak: all data points I have are from my three years-long sentence in automotive industry
2024-12-26T14:25:18 < veverak> I mean, I recently noticed that there is some project to support conan in yocto
2024-12-26T14:25:26 < veverak> that sounds interesting
2024-12-26T14:25:34 < veverak> god damn it, I did not ahve time to properly look at yocto yet too /o\
2024-12-26T14:26:22 < ventyl> IMO giving people of automotive an online repository of packages is very unfortunate move
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2024-12-26T19:03:38 < qyx> ventyl: should they give then an excel with embedded zip file containing sources?
2024-12-26T19:03:43 < qyx> *them
2024-12-26T19:04:47 < jpa-> the excel file should generate the sources
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2024-12-26T23:51:47 < ventyl> jpa-: they used to use excel files that containes VBScript that generated sources
2024-12-26T23:51:53 < ventyl> and I bet that some of they still do that
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2024-12-27T23:50:14 < PlasmaHH> Hi, mabye someone can help me making sense out of what happens on my stm32g474 with a cubemx generated project. In HAL_RCC_ClockConfig it tries to read FLASH.ACR register (at 0x40022000) via instruction "ldr r3, [r3,#0]" and then something happens that looks like a failed attempt to call an NMI handler. pc is suddenly 0xffe00000 and xpsr.T is 0, xpsr.ISR is 2 (NMI?) and SCB.UFSR has INVSTATE set
--- Day changed Sat Dec 28 2024
2024-12-28T00:25:02 < zyp> sounds like what could happen if you accidentally overclock something too far and you start getting random corruption
2024-12-28T00:26:13 < zyp> being cubemx-generated, I'd expect the sequenc and most of the factors to be validated, so my best guess is maybe you told cubemx the wrong crystal frequency?
2024-12-28T00:26:19 < PlasmaHH> zyp: brilliant, accidentally used the config for the real board (12mhz) and not the nucleo (24mhz) that must be it
2024-12-28T00:26:38 < zyp> yeah, exactly
2024-12-28T00:40:58 < PlasmaHH> now to the more fun part in figuring out why it resets me instead of throwing me into the debugger upon... well thats what I want to figure out ^^
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2024-12-28T01:44:34 < qyx> I want to solve a very generic problem but I forgot how is it named
2024-12-28T01:45:24 < qyx> I want to place a number of random objects randomly on a 2D plane and then I want to make their spacing even
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2024-12-28T01:47:59 < zyp> so kinda a force directed graph, except not a graph?
2024-12-28T01:48:00 < qyx> I am considering iterating over the object list, for each take 3 most close objects, connect them as a graph and then optimize for equal edge lengths
2024-12-28T01:49:55 < qyx> oh thats the right keyword, thanks
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2024-12-28T16:49:42 < kovalevsky> Hi, Im running gdb with an elf generated from my custom compilation. Im using a STM32L433 and I wonder why when trying to inspect whats addresses are at offset 0, it does not match with what I think it should be. However, when I inspect the bin file generated, the addresses are correct but when using a debuggin session, it seems is wrong.
2024-12-28T16:51:55 < kovalevsky> Im trying to install freertos into my custom installation along with lib open cm3. This is the output that tells me whats at position memory 0+4: (gdb) p pxVectorTable[1]
2024-12-28T16:51:55 < kovalevsky> $3 = (const portISR_t) 0x1fff31f9
2024-12-28T16:53:04 < kovalevsky> And this is the output when inspecting the bin file: of what should be at position 0+4: 00000000: 2000a000   ... 
2024-12-28T16:53:05 < kovalevsky> 00000004: 080002a5   ....
2024-12-28T16:53:34 < kovalevsky> Which matches with the address of the function I have as a reset handler on my vector table.
2024-12-28T16:53:48 < PlasmaHH> kovalevsky: I don't know the L4 of the top of my head but that looks like it expected the flash to be at 0x8000000 (or however many zeros)
2024-12-28T16:56:23 < kovalevsky> Yes, I was investigating about this. VTOR it seems it will look for the vector table at address 0 but STM32 has a remapping function that puts whatever its at the beginning of the flash at memory zero.
2024-12-28T16:57:26 < kovalevsky> Based upon some pins or bits configuration, as far as I know, if everything from 0x8000000 is being remapped to 0x0000000, then i should be able to debug and reach my main function.
2024-12-28T16:57:48 < kovalevsky> But is so stranger that is this is happening, that if I want to inspect what its at memory 0, it throws me something different.
2024-12-28T16:57:54 < PlasmaHH> but your code seems to be compiled/linked for expecting at 0x800...
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2024-12-28T17:23:02 < PlasmaHH> On my g474 nucleo I tried to configure the cubemx project to output sysclk on PG10  ( NRST ) but I don't really get a signal on that pin, it looks like some 8mhz signal with maybe a 144mhz signal superimposed but its in the 20mVpp range...
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2024-12-28T18:30:46 < zyp> kovalevsky, address 0 is an alias region, mapping to different regions depending on the boot settings for the chip
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2024-12-28T18:31:18 < zyp> 0x1fff31f9 sounds like the ROM bootloader, so you've probably started the chip with BOOT0 high or something
2024-12-28T18:32:47 < zyp> you can confirm this by dumping the actual flash region, e.g. «x/16wx 0x8000000»
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2024-12-28T20:51:55 < kovalevsky> @zyp, thanks so much for this, and you were right, I was having BOOT0 high not being tied low. 
2024-12-28T20:54:47 < qyx> really
2024-12-28T20:55:00 < qyx> shouldn't it be tied low to boot from flash?
2024-12-28T20:55:11 < qyx> that is, the other way around?
2024-12-28T20:55:38 < qyx> sorry, parsing error :>
2024-12-28T20:56:06 < kovalevsky> Yes, I mean, this is something I discovered recently because I decided to discover how to setup this myself, and this is including making my own hardware.
2024-12-28T20:56:30 < kovalevsky> Actually, BOOT0 in my board was floating... so Im assuming this was causing to boot from another region.
2024-12-28T20:56:48 < kovalevsky> As soon as I tied low, I obtain the result I wanted
2024-12-28T20:57:13 < kovalevsky> I mean, still Im curious about how is that my software was still running.
2024-12-28T20:57:13 < zyp> IME, floating pins on stm32 tends to read high
2024-12-28T20:59:12 < kovalevsky> And it seems that with this configuration, the vector table was being loaded from SRAM2.
2024-12-28T21:00:44 < kovalevsky> Sorry, it seems to be booted from System memory.
2024-12-28T21:01:37 < kovalevsky> Which in turns its as @zyp mentioned.
2024-12-28T21:02:05 < kovalevsky> This is amazing, when you start things from almost zero you start noticing all this details that you would not get if you just copy paste same pcb or use already dev kits.
2024-12-28T21:02:35 < zyp> yeah
2024-12-28T21:03:04 < zyp> I've been at this for over a decade and either made all the mistakes or seen other people make them
2024-12-28T21:11:28 < qyx> we are sharing our mistakes since 2011
2024-12-28T21:14:03 < kovalevsky> I need to stay on this channel
2024-12-28T21:14:17 < kovalevsky> To share my experiences
2024-12-28T21:17:04 < qyx> my current achievement is a nice icon https://bin.jvnv.net/file/epDLR/Screenshot_2024-12-28_20-16-42.png
2024-12-28T21:17:16 < qyx> and a connected websocket
2024-12-28T21:20:22 < Steffanx> websockets .. such modern tech qyx 
2024-12-28T21:22:22 < qyx> now the non-stm32 question is how to merge a http.server instance and a websocket server instance listening on two ports into one, preferably 80, preferably with a single line of python and no thinking at all
2024-12-28T21:24:13 < Steffanx> A few lines of nginx config (or whatever is hot nowadays) is not an option?
2024-12-28T21:24:28 < qyx> does it pass wss?
2024-12-28T21:24:49 < qyx> hm, could be doable, I am not *that* resources constrained
2024-12-28T21:27:14 < kovalevsky> I have been on the cloud side of the world... and i still prefer embedded side
2024-12-28T21:27:33 < kovalevsky> Although, IoT has a lot to do with serving sites full of collected sensor data.
2024-12-28T21:29:29 < Steffanx> It can redirect specific requests, so yes qyx ... it can
2024-12-28T21:30:15 < Steffanx> duckduckgo knows all about it. Last time i did this was "ages" ago
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2024-12-28T21:32:21 < Steffanx> Reading through this list can also help you not make those mistakes kovalevsky http://www.efton.sk/STM32/gotcha/
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2024-12-28T21:33:33 < kovalevsky> @Steffanx, awesome. Thanks a lot to share.
2024-12-28T21:39:11 < kovalevsky> I wonder if there is a gotcha that explain why casting a value is important if you want to optimize the bit rate at which you are sending some data, if you are writing directly into the registers. It happens to me that, while I was writing to the SPI->DR register, if you cast it in some way or another, you will see a decrease on the bus since it will not drive the MOSI clock for the rest of the register si.
2024-12-28T21:39:13 < kovalevsky> size*
2024-12-28T21:39:58 < zyp> that's not even about optimization, that's about sending what you're actually supposed to
2024-12-28T21:40:02 < zyp> and yeah, IIRC that's in there
2024-12-28T21:40:12 < Steffanx> There is this http://www.efton.sk/STM32/gotcha/g66.html
2024-12-28T21:40:25 < zyp> http://www.efton.sk/STM32/gotcha/g22.html
2024-12-28T21:40:30 < kovalevsky> ajajaj
2024-12-28T21:40:36 < kovalevsky> I can not believe it is there
2024-12-28T21:41:02 < kovalevsky> I mean, I would never noticed that, if I would not decide NOT to use the HAL libraries.
2024-12-28T21:41:29 < kovalevsky> Definitely someone else has passed the same experience.
2024-12-28T21:41:32 < kovalevsky> Thats great.
2024-12-28T21:42:16 -!- mode/##stm32 [+o Steffanx] by ChanServ
2024-12-28T21:42:50 -!- Steffanx changed the topic of ##stm32 to: STM32 and related innovations | Logs http://xob.kapsi.fi/~jpa/stm32/ | Wisdom https://github.com/karlp/zypsnips | https://dontasktoask.com/ | STM32 gotchas: http://www.efton.sk/STM32/gotcha/
2024-12-28T21:43:01 -!- mode/##stm32 [-o Steffanx] by Steffanx
2024-12-28T21:48:41 < zyp> I also ran into a case once where I were getting 12 clock pulses on the wire
2024-12-28T21:48:44 < zyp> not 8, not 16
2024-12-28T21:49:08 < zyp> turns out if you need to reconfigure modes, you have to disable it first
2024-12-28T21:49:19 < zyp> otherwise it'll misbehave
2024-12-28T21:50:01 < kovalevsky> Yeah, thats weird.
2024-12-28T21:50:08 < kovalevsky> The cool thing would be to know the why.
2024-12-28T21:50:31 < kovalevsky> Why to disable it, configure it and enabled it again.
2024-12-28T21:50:59 < kovalevsky> I just came to the group, not really sure if its okay to discuss about hardware surround stm32?
2024-12-28T21:51:38 < zyp> dude, we discuss anything here, hardware around a stm32 would be more on-topic than most conversations here
2024-12-28T21:53:22 < qyx> kovalevsky: do you have enough snow this winter?
2024-12-28T21:54:08 < zyp> we don't have snow here yet, and that's enough for me
2024-12-28T21:54:22 < Steffanx> No snow here either.
2024-12-28T21:54:56 < Steffanx> We already had some though. And we were not prepared.
2024-12-28T21:55:04 < kovalevsky> ok, I would be interested in knowning if someone has tested 3 wire spi in front of a level shifter.
2024-12-28T21:55:07 < zyp> I did enough shoveling last year to last a decade, don't need a repeat of that for a while
2024-12-28T21:55:24 < kovalevsky> I dont have snow here and thats great for me .
2024-12-28T21:55:29 < bitmask> we had some a few days ago
2024-12-28T21:55:34 < zyp> three wire? as in bidir data?
2024-12-28T21:55:41 < qyx> kovalevsky: txs0104 maybe?
2024-12-28T21:55:54 < Steffanx> You snow bitmask?! 
2024-12-28T21:56:03 < bitmask> yes me snow!
2024-12-28T21:56:14 < kovalevsky> Yes, three wire, bidirectional data.
2024-12-28T21:56:15 < qyx> but people are having different level of success with those
2024-12-28T21:56:32 < kovalevsky> Actually, Im using PI4ULS5V106ZHDEX
2024-12-28T21:56:33 < qyx> it is a bidir level shifter, push-pull or opendrain, without direction line
2024-12-28T21:56:36 < zyp> we had some light snowfall some weeks ago, but it rained away before I needed to do anything about it anyway
2024-12-28T21:57:35 < zyp> I prefer to avoid bidir level shifters without direction lines if possible
2024-12-28T21:57:36 < kovalevsky> It does have direction line... the first design of my board, did not noticed that the device I was trying to communicate with was using spi three wire, so I had to do some rework on the board to add the series resistor between MOSI and MOSI.
2024-12-28T21:58:37 < kovalevsky> But the main issue Im having is that, although it seems that my configuration is properly made, I can not receive back response from the device. I put a probe on both side, from stm32 to level shifter, and from level shifter to dds, and with no success.
2024-12-28T21:58:54 < kovalevsky> why would you prefer that instead @qyx?
2024-12-28T21:59:13 < kovalevsky> Main problem on my board is that there is almost no spare pins to do that.
2024-12-28T21:59:55 < qyx> because there are some protocols which are complex to extract direction information
2024-12-28T22:00:00 < qyx> eg. SDIO
2024-12-28T22:00:13 < qyx> and not all host controllers have direction signal outputs, like on many stm32s
2024-12-28T22:00:44 < qyx> I used this shifter on two boards and it was working great for SDIO
2024-12-28T22:00:52 < qyx> the 6 bit version though
2024-12-28T22:01:04 < kovalevsky> the one you mentioned? txs0104?
2024-12-28T22:01:10 < kovalevsky> maybe I should give it a try...
2024-12-28T22:01:14 < qyx> over time I became lazy so I am using txs0104 even for things like UART (for LTE modems)
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2024-12-29T14:09:58 < qyx> I can safely say that at 45 A, 16 mm2 cable is much cooler than 2x2.5 mm2
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2024-12-29T15:29:34 < Steffanx>  Cool.
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2024-12-29T15:58:29 < zyp> who would have thought
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2024-12-29T22:48:14 < qyx> meine kleine python web app is starting to behave
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2024-12-30T01:11:40 < Steffanx> Can you make my kicad behave too? For some reason it moves my cursor when I start dragging a part. Quite annoying. 
2024-12-30T01:11:45 < Steffanx> not sure when this started
2024-12-30T01:11:54 < Steffanx> Might be related to my display scaling
2024-12-30T01:12:25 < Steffanx> wut, while i say this its gone. lol
2024-12-30T01:12:37 < Steffanx> and its back.
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2024-12-30T01:23:48 < qyx> kicad gremlins?
2024-12-30T01:23:55 < qyx> sorry I had to use my AI friend
2024-12-30T01:24:03 < qyx> how would you call a gnome or dwarf or any other envious creature living in a device causing it to misbehave?
2024-12-30T01:24:15 < qyx> In folklore and mythology, a creature that causes mischief or trouble in a device or a place is often referred to as a "gremlin." However, the term "gremlin" typically originated from the concept of mischievous creatures that cause problems in aircraft, particularly during World War II.
2024-12-30T01:24:20 < qyx> TIL
2024-12-30T01:25:16 < qyx> poltergeist!
2024-12-30T01:28:11 < Steffanx> Yes, it must be
2024-12-30T01:28:35 < Steffanx> it seems to depend on where the part is when i start dragging. how annoying
2024-12-30T01:31:03 < qyx> hwihc version?
2024-12-30T01:31:23 < qyx> and how exactly do you drag and in which editor?
2024-12-30T01:32:20 < qyx> I can try 8.0.4 or upgrade to 8.0.6
2024-12-30T01:35:59 < Steffanx> KiCad 8.0.7 here.
2024-12-30T01:36:13 < Steffanx> Schematic editor
2024-12-30T01:37:16 < qyx> oh you are too current
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2024-12-30T01:52:04 < qyx> dragging works, I couldn't reporoduce anything
2024-12-30T01:52:14 < qyx> in 8.0.6
2024-12-30T01:55:10 < kovalevsky> after my encounter with having BOOT0 pin floating, I decided to read about how to configure so I dont use it. I end it up in understanding that there are configuration bits on embedded flash that allows to avoid the reading at BOOT0 and instead use other bits configured.
2024-12-30T01:55:46 < kovalevsky> However, during today I tried to write on those bits, and it seems that sometimes it works and sometimes it does not work, if it works, debugger is not attached.
2024-12-30T01:55:57 < kovalevsky> If debugger is attach, it hangs.
2024-12-30T01:56:19 < kovalevsky> I wonder if there is any hidden documentation on the datasheet that explicitly says that I can not use the debugger for this.
2024-12-30T01:57:51 < zyp> which chip is this? presumably a newer one? the older ones didn't let you disable BOOT0
2024-12-30T01:58:00 < kovalevsky> This is newer.
2024-12-30T01:58:08 < kovalevsky> STM32L433
2024-12-30T01:58:38 < kovalevsky> May you provide an example of one of those that can not allow you to disable BOOT0 on hardware?
2024-12-30T02:00:19 < Steffanx> Yeah, its a little weird. It might be related to my dpi/scaling.
2024-12-30T02:00:22 < Steffanx> @ qyx 
2024-12-30T02:16:10 < kovalevsky> Ok, it seems I already solved my issue.
2024-12-30T02:16:29 < kovalevsky> I was missing first to enable the FLASH peripheral clock, I know about this but sometimes you just forget ...
2024-12-30T02:16:40 < kovalevsky> Specially when you want to operate your device in low power mode...
2024-12-30T02:16:53 < kovalevsky> And also, the other thing was to disable the flash itself.
2024-12-30T02:17:23 < kovalevsky> Reading back from the register, I can see what I wrote and now its not required anymore to use BOOT0.
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2024-12-30T03:45:38 < qyx> all going good https://bin.jvnv.net/file/MbgnR/Screenshot_2024-12-30-02-44-54-472.jpeg
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2024-12-30T22:39:55 < PlasmaHH> Steffanx: you don't happen to be using kicad via windows remote desktop?
2024-12-30T22:40:17 < Steffanx> No, lunix here.
2024-12-30T22:42:54 < PlasmaHH> Steffanx: ah, too bad... I have the problem that the curser is moving around when using kicad through windows remote desktop ...
2024-12-30T22:44:39 < qyx> kicad is touching the cursor roo much and it results in problems
2024-12-30T22:44:50 < qyx> I don't see a single reason an app should manipulate cursor position
2024-12-30T22:45:18 < PlasmaHH> qyx: grid/part snapping is a useful feature
2024-12-30T22:45:51 < qyx> yes but that doesn't involve cursor movement
2024-12-30T22:46:11 < qyx> on the other hand, the worst thing I've ever seen is clicking on OK in a dialog and then the cursor jumping on the selected component
2024-12-30T22:46:27 < qyx> then you select another one, press e, but the cursor doesn't move to the window
2024-12-30T22:46:38 < qyx> so not only it is repositioning the cursor, it is not doing it consistently
2024-12-30T22:46:49 < qyx> so you end up with the mouse falling off the table after editing a couple of components
2024-12-30T22:47:25 < PlasmaHH> big tables are cheap ;):
2024-12-30T22:47:43 < qyx> yeah I have a 3.5m one
2024-12-30T22:48:19 < PlasmaHH> lots of components til the space is gone ;)
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--- Log closed Wed Jan 01 00:00:55 2025