--- Log opened ke heinä 01 00:00:25 2026
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2026-07-01T12:06:38 < mercenary> LT3045 seems ever so slightly more expensive though
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2026-07-01T12:54:25 < karlp> just a weeeeee bit
2026-07-01T12:54:47 < karlp> smells like audiofoolery though ;)
2026-07-01T12:56:32 < karlp> you've got a loottttt of mcu there.... what else are you putting on?!
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2026-07-01T16:33:14 < catphish> karlp: the only reason for the hilareously oversized MCU is USB FS PHY
2026-07-01T16:33:19 < catphish> *USB HS PHY
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2026-07-01T16:34:50 < catphish> mercenary: i didn't even look at the part prices - this customer has an essentially unlimited budget and wants no noise in their signal :)
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2026-07-01T16:37:18 < catphish> There's going to be another version of this that runs on batteries, i've been struggling to decide if i go battery + boost, or an extremely complicated pack that allows everything to run on raw battery DC
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2026-07-01T16:42:09 < mercenary> there's a negative rail there isn't it? so two batteries, one slightly more charged than the other, could be fun
2026-07-01T16:44:11 < catphish> mercenary: yeah that's the problem, it needs +/-12V and +5V, so 3 batteries with different load requirements
2026-07-01T16:46:53 < mercenary> you could always tape two of those 7.2Ah SLA blocks for UPS use to it, 7805 for the +5V because we have plenty power anyway
2026-07-01T16:49:27 < mercenary> but seriously, if you do direct-on-battery, I'd try to somehow conjure up the +5 from something that sits between the +12 and -12, so both get equal load
2026-07-01T16:53:57 < catphish> if i use SLA then i don't really need to care so much about balancing
2026-07-01T16:54:37 < catphish> that's a bit shit / heavy / short-lifed though
2026-07-01T16:55:14 < mercenary> this is true. but as you say, SLA has some other disadvantages
2026-07-01T16:55:52 < catphish> 3 separate batteries (3S + 3S + 2S) would work, but that's a while lot of charging logic
2026-07-01T16:56:54 < mercenary> and balancers, and fiddling with 'where is 0V again?'
2026-07-01T16:56:59 < catphish> i'm really hoping the bus powered version is quiet enough, because the battery is a pain in the ass
2026-07-01T16:57:20 < qyx> compensate for equal load with some opamos and a beefy resistor :p
2026-07-01T16:57:23 < catphish> but customer wants batteries, so i'm gonna try to engineer something before giving them the option
2026-07-01T16:57:30 < qyx> or design a cinstant current inout vreg
2026-07-01T16:57:33 < qyx> *input
2026-07-01T16:58:32 < catphish> i feel like there shuld be a trick to use a positive VREG to generate a midpoint to act as 0V
2026-07-01T16:58:48 < catphish> ie a 12V VREG on a 24V battery
2026-07-01T16:58:57 < qyx> voktage follower from a 1/1 divider
2026-07-01T16:58:59 < qyx> voltage
2026-07-01T16:59:05 < catphish> yeah that!
2026-07-01T16:59:12 < qyx> like midpoi ts are usually generated
2026-07-01T16:59:29 < qyx> you just need a power opamp or a totem-pole on the output
2026-07-01T17:00:03 < catphish> that seems achieveable, as long as it can lock that 0V in place
2026-07-01T17:00:24 < qyx> yeah it has to be both sourcing and sinking
2026-07-01T17:00:26 < catphish> and another couple 3.3V and 5V above that
2026-07-01T17:00:39 < catphish> a resistor ladder and follower opamps is an excellent idea
2026-07-01T17:05:34 < catphish> thanks, that might just work :)
2026-07-01T17:24:42 < karlp> wot, xtensa breakpoints don't work?!
2026-07-01T17:24:52 < karlp> I can ctrrl-c, but it never hits my breakpoints?
2026-07-01T17:26:15 < karlp> ahha, "hbreak" works, "break" doesn't.
2026-07-01T17:26:19 < karlp> thanks espressif
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2026-07-01T17:47:51 < karlp> so, strictly necessary cookies like session ids, don't need consent, but need a "cookie transparency" 
2026-07-01T17:48:02 < karlp> cookie transparency policy,
2026-07-01T17:48:12 < karlp> the "we use cookies, ok?!"" you sometimes see
2026-07-01T17:48:21 < karlp> but if I store sessoin in url, then it's ok....
2026-07-01T17:48:23 < karlp> fucking gross.
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2026-07-01T18:28:02 < catphish> karlp: where are you getting that it's okay to store a cookie in a URL and that the rules are any different? because i'm almost 100% sure that's not the case
2026-07-01T18:29:23 < catphish> the law doesn't specify *how* they're stored, whether it be a cookie, a URL token, local storage, or any other not yet invented way, the point is any identifier stored on the user's computer is a cookie for the purpose of the law
2026-07-01T18:30:28 < karlp> it's not a cookie if it's in the url...
2026-07-01T18:30:44 < catphish> karlp: citation for that?
2026-07-01T18:30:52 < karlp> fucking http rfcs?
2026-07-01T18:30:57 < catphish> i mean, it's not a cookie, but the law doesn't say "cookie"
2026-07-01T18:31:08 < karlp> it's not _stored_ if it's in the url, not a cookie
2026-07-01T18:31:16 < catphish> it covers IDs stored on a person's computer. it doesn't say how
2026-07-01T18:31:20 < catphish> of course it is
2026-07-01T18:31:28 < karlp> I don't believe so.
2026-07-01T18:31:33 < catphish> you believe wrong
2026-07-01T18:32:04 < karlp> well, we're both without citations right now :)
2026-07-01T18:32:06 < catphish> https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/direct-marketing-and-privacy-and-electronic-communications/guide-to-pecr/cookies-and-similar-technologies/#whatelseiscovered
2026-07-01T18:32:28 < karlp> I'm going to put a "cookie policy" on anyway, because using a session cookie is just easier to _use_ than splatting it in the url
2026-07-01T18:32:42 < catphish> i don't see why you think they'd be legally different
2026-07-01T18:32:42 < karlp> it just feels so pointless when it's session mgmt for a local device.
2026-07-01T18:33:25 < karlp> I don't see how you read that section to say that url parameters are "stored on a users de3vice"
2026-07-01T18:33:39 < catphish> in order for a session token in a URL to work, it *must* be stored on the user's device
2026-07-01T18:33:56 < karlp> in order for page navigation to work, the url muyst be stored too,
2026-07-01T18:34:03 < karlp> I do not for a second believe that to be in scope.
2026-07-01T18:34:06 < karlp> but it's the sam ething
2026-07-01T18:34:18 < catphish> page URLs are not user-identifying
2026-07-01T18:34:20 < karlp> using a url param to dtermine navigation is just a url param to determine navigation
2026-07-01T18:34:20 < catphish> but yes
2026-07-01T18:34:35 < mercenary> the difference is 'persistence'
2026-07-01T18:34:35 < catphish> this only applies to anything that tracks an individual user
2026-07-01T18:34:56 < karlp> page urls absolutely _can_ be user identifying, they're  just not normally....
2026-07-01T18:35:23 < karlp> I'm still going to just put a "transparency" little footnote anyway, but it's just wonk.
2026-07-01T18:35:50 < catphish> i'd not heard of having to inform users when using cookies for essential things like logging in
2026-07-01T18:36:07 < catphish> i thought that was just obvious that you were identifiable once you were logged in!
2026-07-01T18:37:29 < karlp> session for logins also counts as "stritclyt necessary" so exempt, but "you should notify"
2026-07-01T18:37:38 < karlp> from your page, "However, it is still good practice to provide users with information about these cookies, even if you do not need consent."
2026-07-01T18:38:01 < catphish> yeah i probably wouldn't bother
2026-07-01T18:38:19 < mercenary> does javascript still have access to browser history these days? if so, url-encoded sessions are equivalent to cookies
2026-07-01T18:38:53 < karlp> anyway, the real headache is doing all this by hand in esp-idf httpserver anyway.
2026-07-01T18:38:54 < catphish> i can absolutely guarantee that a session token in a URL is legally a cookie, whether javascript can access it or not
2026-07-01T18:39:07 < catphish> it's stored on your computer between requests, that's literally what makes it work
2026-07-01T18:39:18 < karlp> I dispute that, but I have zero plan to be involved in any resolution to it :)
2026-07-01T18:41:13 < mercenary> 'stored on computer' has plenty different meanings. in the copyright game, decrypted content for playback does not count as 'stored on' afaik
2026-07-01T18:46:29 < catphish> UK law does not specify in any way what it means by "store information"
2026-07-01T18:47:55 < catphish> so it's totally open to interpretation. my interpretation is that putting a token in a URL with the intention of reading it back later to idnetify the user is absolutely covered, but i accept that you disagree
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2026-07-01T21:57:42 < catphish> am i right in thinking that an external oscillator should be connected to OSC_OUT? this seems bizarre
2026-07-01T22:00:38 < catphish> no, i'm wrong, OSC_IN is the input, i have no idea why i was convinced it was backwards
2026-07-01T22:16:18 < catphish> CubeMX is weird about this, it assigns both oscillator pins in bypass mode, but the reference manual says that's not necessary, and OSC_OUT can be used for GPIO
2026-07-01T22:29:18 < aandrew> yeah I almost always use osc instead of crystals, and on a few designs where I'm pin constrained or the routing definitely prefers it, I'll steal OSC_OUT for some other peripheral or a GPIO
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2026-07-01T22:40:40 < ventyl> well, creepyOS talk was a massive success. i had about 10 attendees
2026-07-01T22:42:29 < specing> windows?
2026-07-01T22:51:48 < ventyl> windows is for sure creepy as hell
2026-07-01T22:51:56 < ventyl> but it doesn't run on STM32
2026-07-01T23:01:45 < qyx> 10 out of..?
2026-07-01T23:06:37 < ventyl> ~120
2026-07-01T23:10:43 < qyx> 120 is sad, 10 is sad too
2026-07-01T23:10:53 < ventyl> yeah
2026-07-01T23:11:24 < qyx> i didn't even know about the conference, apparently not following the right channels
2026-07-01T23:11:31 < ventyl> well, this isn't embedded-oriented conference, so enforcement of memory protection on microcontrollers was quite a niche topic there
2026-07-01T23:11:49 < ventyl> far the largest audience happened at embedded-specific conference
2026-07-01T23:12:02 < ventyl> it was resurrected after covid, this is 2nd post-covid year
2026-07-01T23:12:34 < qyx> offtopic, kicad supports alternate function mapping on symbols?
2026-07-01T23:12:45 < qyx> the cube style? click and see what AFs are there
2026-07-01T23:12:59 < qyx> is that something new? I haven't seen it before
2026-07-01T23:15:14 < aandrew> ... creepyos?
2026-07-01T23:18:58 < ventyl> aandrew: cmrxrtos.org
2026-07-01T23:24:23 < ventyl> ...website statistics will bump from 1 visitor to 2 for today :)
2026-07-01T23:24:50 < qyx> you can monetize with the new cludflare shit!
2026-07-01T23:24:58 < ventyl> 2 visits?
2026-07-01T23:25:20 < qyx> and earn some stablecoin or whatever thing is hyped today
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2026-07-02T01:29:08 < bitmask> bah humbug
2026-07-02T01:37:58 < qyx> ham-burg
2026-07-02T01:46:58 < catphish> bum harbug
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2026-07-02T02:41:51 < bitmask> my game engine is going to shit, I use it for training AI so its quickly becoming mostly AI slop
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2026-07-02T12:50:35 < Steffanx> Im sorry for your loss
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2026-07-02T13:56:48 < specing> there's too many game engines, anyways
2026-07-02T14:05:49 < rajkosto> reject game engines, bespoke code every game from scratch
2026-07-02T14:07:07 < specing> that's pretty much how the vast majority of libre games are made
2026-07-02T14:07:47 < specing> though the engine is some inhouse fork of another
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2026-07-02T18:44:39 < machinehum> bitmask: You have a game engine?
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2026-07-02T19:13:06 < bitmask> just a little pet project I work on
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2026-07-02T23:28:55 < catphish> specing: i suspect open source developers are more interested in making engines than games :)
2026-07-02T23:30:08 < ventyl> that's statistically true
2026-07-02T23:32:48 < ventyl> so, seven people were interested enough so they came to CMRX workshop
2026-07-02T23:32:51 < ventyl> none died
2026-07-02T23:36:55 < specing> catphish: indeed, there's a huge lack of content developers, it's mostly programmers
2026-07-02T23:56:43 < bitmask> I don't have the imagination to create a game, nor the art skill and all that. I just like learning the different technologies for rendering and stuff and figuring out how to put it together
--- Day changed pe heinä 03 2026
2026-07-03T00:00:53 < specing> bitmask: you could join an existing game project, then
2026-07-03T00:02:22 < bitmask> half of it is learning the underlying engine stuff, a game project would probably be using an existing engine. thats very different
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2026-07-03T00:24:50 < specing> bitmask: plenty existing games need engine maintainers/developers
2026-07-03T00:25:06 < specing> and plenty more use outdated rendering stacks
2026-07-03T00:25:22 < specing> I can count on my fingers the number of libre games with a vulkan renderer, for example
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2026-07-03T00:55:54 < specing> not that it matters, as most aren't graphically demanding enough to need vulkan (if vulkan is for that purpose), which loops us back to "no artists"
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2026-07-03T15:42:39 < karlp> lol static const unsigned char datagzip_assets_index_7aiVI3YY_js[172890] = { 31,139,8,0,.... (all on line line)
2026-07-03T15:43:10 < karlp> I know line endings are a human invention, bu tit's still fun to see them in an otherwise human readnable file :)
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2026-07-03T15:56:26 < mercenary> better than const unsigned char[] = {\n  and then one value per line, to inflate your LoC metrics for the month
2026-07-03T16:00:42 < specing> *for the decade
2026-07-03T16:01:05 < specing> karlp: makes me wonder if gcc has some directive to "include a file"
2026-07-03T16:01:34 < specing> then you could make a gzip file and just include it at link stage..
2026-07-03T16:05:02 < mercenary> you probably have to prepend some ELF object header to the gzip file for the linker to understand it. And then just 'external unsigned char foo[];'
2026-07-03T16:06:05 < karlp> you can give it bins yeah, but it's normally a lot less hassle to just hav ethe bytes in the file like that.
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2026-07-03T18:03:34 < qyx> specing: #embed in c23
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2026-07-03T23:37:02 < mawk> karlp I just have a INCLUDE_FILE macro
2026-07-03T23:37:28 < mawk> which does something like asm("file: .incbin \"file.bin\"")
2026-07-03T23:37:47 < mawk> a bit more complex of course to give it proper visibility and put it in .rodara
2026-07-03T23:37:49 < mawk> rodata
2026-07-03T23:48:19 < jbo> I think the solution is to rewrite everything in rust
2026-07-03T23:48:31 < jbo> at least that's what I'm being told
2026-07-03T23:51:20 < specing> qyx: nice
--- Day changed la heinä 04 2026
2026-07-04T00:04:31 < qyx> jbo: I hope you are conformant!
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2026-07-04T01:58:29 < zyp> jbo, you're not wrong, rust of course has an include_bytes macro in the core lib :p
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2026-07-06T15:03:13 < jbo> someone made a mandelbrot renderer with only makefiles: https://github.com/b-aaz/bmake-extravaganza
2026-07-06T16:00:31 < Steffanx> No ty.
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2026-07-06T17:04:53 < zyp> correct
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2026-07-06T18:51:24 < ColdKeyboard> Anyone havea trick on how to make a single component, that has multiple connectors, "easy to use" in Altium?
2026-07-06T18:51:57 < ColdKeyboard> For example the Raspberry Pi CM4 has 2 connectors
2026-07-06T18:52:38 < ColdKeyboard> And if you are making the "carrier board" for it. It's easier if you make a single footprint/component for both of those connectors, so when you move them component, you know the spacing and alignment is maintained...
2026-07-06T18:53:37 < ColdKeyboard> But then when you want to manufacture the board, you have to have two connectors on the BoM and also Pick and Place should have two positions
2026-07-06T18:53:39 < jbo> just make a multi-symbol part like you'd do with an OpAmp?
2026-07-06T18:53:50 < jbo> ah
2026-07-06T18:53:57 < jbo> I don't remember how that was done, has been a while
2026-07-06T18:55:03 < ColdKeyboard> I have been just placing a single component that is No BoM and then adding mechanical placeholders for two connectors. So that fixes the BoM to some extent.
2026-07-06T18:55:52 < ColdKeyboard> But the pick-and-place still has only one part... And some PCB shops are "Oh we can't just offset another connector" and I have also straigh up received a PCB with one connector missing and a bag of CN2 xD
2026-07-06T18:57:53 < specing> hahahaha
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2026-07-06T19:55:10 < ColdKeyboard> I mean the BoM has extra item and also gerbers have notes about it... Not to mention emailing and confirming it with sales... but I guess someone on the shop flor was like "nah, don't care" xD
2026-07-06T19:55:40 < ColdKeyboard> They took the boards back to rework so I only lost a couple of days shipping the boards back and forth but it's not fun
2026-07-06T19:55:57 < ColdKeyboard> So I'm curious how Altium envisions this to be done "properly"
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2026-07-06T21:08:17 < jpa-> ColdKeyboard: I'd just put alignment markings on silkscreen/fab layer, and then group the footprints after you have aligned them
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2026-07-07T00:02:54 < ColdKeyboard> That could work too... but I guess either way it's going to be sub-optimal because then you have two parts in schematic that are either generic or you have to make sure to include A and B and keep them grouped everywhere.
2026-07-07T00:03:07 < ColdKeyboard> Not the end of the world but I'm surprised there isn't a solution for something like this.
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2026-07-07T01:03:45 < qyx> omg why all new projects have discord instead of something reasonable
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2026-07-07T01:06:59 < specing> because genZ grew up with discord instead of IRC
2026-07-07T01:07:16 < specing> kids these days... SMH
2026-07-07T01:07:44 < specing> then there's the whole bunch of millenials who never figured out how to setup a bouncer
2026-07-07T01:08:23 < specing> then there's a whole bunch of IRC programmers that never figured out that we've moved on from dialup modems and that a built-in bouncer/history is actually a necessary feature
2026-07-07T01:17:25 < ds2> then treat them as though they don't exists
2026-07-07T01:18:04 < ds2> besides most of these projects are high questionable.... using a browser for anything is not lightweight@#$!#!@$!@$@!#!@
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2026-07-07T02:13:41 < specing> I can understand them, though. No need to target all these different OSes when you can just run it in a web browser.
2026-07-07T02:13:53 < specing> windows should just die, then it would be a lot easier
2026-07-07T02:24:47 < qyx> yes and target all those different browsers instead
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2026-07-07T02:39:58 < ds2> the problem isn't targeting a browser... it is claiming it is light weight
2026-07-07T02:43:25 < specing> qyx: they usually bundle chrome; so only one browser
2026-07-07T02:43:38 < jbo> ds2, uh? we're living in 2026, you get to claim whatever the f*ck you want.
2026-07-07T02:44:00 < specing> in effect chrome became the multiplatform GUI library
2026-07-07T02:55:47 < ds2> so in 2026, you get to usurp any word you feel like? dictionaries are no longer relevant?
2026-07-07T02:58:47 < karlp> mawk: I completely don't care, I need software to generate the templates for the url handlers anywhere, whether it does asm inbin or uses a char array, or separate files, it doesn't matter in the least.
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2026-07-07T03:42:39 < aandrew> < qyx> omg why all new projects have discord instead of something reasonable
2026-07-07T03:42:53 < aandrew> because they're run by millenials who think that Discord is peak communication
2026-07-07T03:48:06 < ColdKeyboard> Let's bring back forums!
2026-07-07T03:48:21 < ColdKeyboard> But not the Discourse garbage... like phpBB or Invision ones
2026-07-07T03:49:08 < ColdKeyboard> As soon as I see Discourse forums I immediately close the tab... Literally every forum looks exactly the same and the idea is not to find information or have "structured" conversation. It's don't leave and keep cliking and scrolling
2026-07-07T03:51:37 < aandrew> fuck forums, I don't know which is worse, forums or discord
2026-07-07T03:51:44 < aandrew> they have all the same fucking problems
2026-07-07T03:52:21 < aandrew> mailing lists and IRC are where it's at
2026-07-07T03:52:58 < aandrew> distributed by nature, searchable, easily archived, none of the bullshit
2026-07-07T03:53:26 < aandrew> sharing images/binaries is problematic yes but it's a small price to pay for the lack of headache in literally every other area
2026-07-07T03:54:22 < aandrew> I dont mind discourse but yes it's got the big problem you describe
2026-07-07T03:54:33 < aandrew> I feel it's the lessor of all the modern evils
2026-07-07T04:22:03 < ColdKeyboard> Maybe but I have fond memories of forums and IRC. Discord and Discourse and all the other garbage... not so much.
2026-07-07T04:22:29 < ColdKeyboard> For me, the problem with IRC is that it's hard to search and having threads
2026-07-07T04:23:09 < ColdKeyboard> Similar to Discord... if multiple people are talking at the same time, it's not easy to follow. And if you come a day later, you have to track who was part of which conversation and what was happening
2026-07-07T04:23:35 < ColdKeyboard> With forums, you have threads and even if you come a month later, you can easily see what happened and also if you don't care about the conversation/topic, just skip it
2026-07-07T04:39:03 < specing> ColdKeyboard: inertial is big
2026-07-07T04:39:11 < specing> iirc mattermost has in-channel threads
2026-07-07T04:45:29 < ds2> it depends on what you are used to... for me, threads makes things incredibly hard to follow. a quick read of IRC and you just pick what you want rather then try to sort it thread by thread
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2026-07-07T06:22:58 < ColdKeyboard> True, there probably isn't one solution that works for all
2026-07-07T06:23:16 < ColdKeyboard> xkcd comic with "There are 11 competing standards" comes to mind
2026-07-07T06:23:34 < ColdKeyboard> That's how we got Discord, Discourse and all the other jazz 
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2026-07-07T06:55:14 < aandrew> I never cared for lack of threads. slack added threads and I actually dislike them
2026-07-07T06:55:48 < aandrew> I never had an issue with tracking that stuff even in busy IRC channels but I can definitely understand that viewpoint
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2026-07-07T07:21:40 < ColdKeyboard> For me it's more that I'm not on the IRC 24/7... well technically I am but I'm not actively looking at it.
2026-07-07T07:22:35 < ColdKeyboard> So for example there may be interesting conversations going on while I'm away, but I'm not in the habit of scrolling to see what happened yesterday or two days ago
2026-07-07T07:23:20 < ColdKeyboard> And I agree, the Slack threads should never been added... that thing is so inconvenient and counter-intuitive IMO
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2026-07-07T09:06:49 < fantanYl> well, group chat was never meant to persist information, be it IRC or any kind of slackoid
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2026-07-07T10:34:18 < zyp> personally I find discord to have the best UI of all these new messenger shits
2026-07-07T10:34:41 < zyp> everything else I've tried is worse in some way or another
2026-07-07T10:37:13 < zyp> as for search, I have decades of IRC logs and grepping through them is fast and easy
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2026-07-07T11:45:38 < fantanYl> :) I find Discord UI the absolute worst of them all. I can't anything in it
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--- Day changed ke heinä 08 2026
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2026-07-08T00:31:56 < catphish> zyp: i also think discord is by far the best, my only complaint is that it doesn't have an open protocol to allow decent lightweight clients
2026-07-08T00:45:20 < BrainDamage> assuming they don't back-sell data, their business model is selling client-side features on subscription, that will basically never happen
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2026-07-08T01:14:02 < ColdKeyboard> Their initial idea was to fund themselves by selling client-side features. But obviously they did 180 because selling user data is way more profitable. Also compared to IRC, Discord is propriatery which I don't like. I might be wrong but I think someone mentioned that they actually used IRC as a starting point.
2026-07-08T01:14:39 < ColdKeyboard> Well they didn't do 180 because they technically still sell client-side features, but they also sell user data
2026-07-08T01:19:47 < catphish> honesly i see adverts for their paid stuff, it seemed so pointless to me that i never really realised that's what they were selling, but that makes sense
2026-07-08T01:20:40 < catphish> they're purely cosmetic, right? i've never understood why anyone would pay
2026-07-08T01:21:15 < catphish> on an unrelated note, how on earth are JLCPCB out of stock of basic 10k 0603 resistors :|
2026-07-08T01:21:38 < catphish> (and also 0402 10k resistors)
2026-07-08T01:21:43 < catphish> that's wild
2026-07-08T01:22:21 < catphish> those must be some of the most common components after 100n caps
2026-07-08T01:30:10 < ColdKeyboard> They all went into datacenter GPUs :P
2026-07-08T01:33:21 < BrainDamage> twitch uses irc under the hood
2026-07-08T01:37:10 < BrainDamage> you're likely confusing with that
2026-07-08T01:41:35 < qyx> wat twitch irc
2026-07-08T01:48:00 < ColdKeyboard> Could be, I don't recall where I read that
2026-07-08T01:53:58 < BrainDamage> https://dev.twitch.tv/docs/chat and in the past at least, it was claimed it wasn't just an interface layer, but the backend ran it, not sure today
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2026-07-08T12:15:16 < catphish> i'm seriously struggling with battery charging - i want to charge a 2S battery from USB with an STM32 choosing the charge current, this is a weirdly tricky requirement
2026-07-08T12:15:41 < catphish> battery charger ICs are weirdly opinionated
2026-07-08T12:26:45 < qyx> there are many buck-boost chargers with i2c control
2026-07-08T12:46:20 < catphish> for some value of "control" - they are all opinionated in problematic ways
2026-07-08T12:47:39 < catphish> actually i've been looking mostly at boost chargers, which are USB-specific, which is surprisingly unhelpful, but maybe the buck-boost ones will be more flexible if they're not designed to own the USB port
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2026-07-08T13:41:44 < specing> catphish: you can probably just DIY a boost with PWM from stm32, if the other end is a battery then it can absorb the overvoltage from sluggish-feedback PWMing
2026-07-08T13:42:25 < catphish> I could, there's a few moving parts to a battery charger though, and I don't want to set anything on fire :)
2026-07-08T13:43:52 < specing> dedicated BMS, then?
2026-07-08T13:44:02 < Steffanx> If you also need the d+/d- just add a multiplexer on those lines?
2026-07-08T13:44:05 < catphish> BQ25798 is a very complete solution, its input current limit is more flexible than most
2026-07-08T13:44:06 < specing> plus, with a PWM you can limit charging to 4V/cell for longevity
2026-07-08T13:44:38 < catphish> specing: yeah, i was considering just using a current limited boost controller with a 4V/cell voltage setting
2026-07-08T13:44:52 < specing> also, why 2S?
2026-07-08T13:45:08 < catphish> my whole power supply chain is pretty complicated
2026-07-08T13:45:21 < catphish> what i actually need is +/-12V isolated
2026-07-08T13:45:52 < specing> having a cell series introduces more problems, because you have to monitor each group..
2026-07-08T13:45:57 < catphish> well, +/-8V isolated, after some very low noise post regulation
2026-07-08T13:46:16 < catphish> off teh shelf battery packs have balancers in them, i was going to rely on that
2026-07-08T13:46:53 < catphish> some of the 2S boost chargers also have balance tap pins, but i don't think i need that
2026-07-08T13:47:56 < catphish> anyway, ultimately, what i want is +/-8V isolated and regulated, fed from a battery, chargeable from USB, and with an STM32 running on the same USB port
2026-07-08T13:48:29 < catphish> i don't really care at this point which side of the isolation barrier the battery sits
2026-07-08T13:49:03 < catphish> what i have right now looks something like: USB -> boost charger -> 2S battery -> buck -> push-pull transformer -> +/-12v -> postregulation
2026-07-08T13:53:08 < catphish> i've shot myself in the foot. my wants a battery, i want isolation, trying to do both is horrifying
2026-07-08T13:53:20 < catphish> *my customer wants a battery
2026-07-08T13:56:43 < catphish> the whole concept is a mess now :) but regardless, i need a simple way to get a battery in, i may just put it right upfront at the USB port, put everything else behind it, and MUX the USB data lines
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2026-07-08T13:59:25 < qyx> yeah deoending on the power, I would go with a single cell if possible
2026-07-08T14:00:29 < qyx> oh lol usb -> boost -> 2S -> buck is... well, dumb
2026-07-08T14:00:52 < qyx> usb - buck - 1S - buck-boost is more common
2026-07-08T14:01:02 < catphish> actually it's considerably less dumb (IMO) than usb->buck->battery->boost
2026-07-08T14:01:30 < qyx> well manufacturer opinion is the one which matters
2026-07-08T14:01:31 < catphish> better to waste USB power than battery power, and boost is noisier during operation
2026-07-08T14:01:38 < qyx> there is a plenty of buck usb chargers
2026-07-08T14:01:47 < catphish> yeah, that is unfortunately the case
2026-07-08T14:01:53 < catphish> 1S is definitely more popular
2026-07-08T14:02:08 < catphish> probably because of the balancing issue
2026-07-08T14:06:03 < qyx> y
2026-07-08T14:07:12 < catphish> I'm not really bothered about that either way. I am just keen not to introduce more switching noise than necessary. Frankly other products use 1S and boost, probably without the additional 2 layers of filtering i'm adding
2026-07-08T14:07:44 < catphish> the power goes though a transformer and an ultra low noise linear regulator before it's used
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2026-07-08T14:55:53 < catphish> i'm also considering wilder options like putting a bunch of batteries right on the isolated side (+3S, -3S and +2S), no switching at all, just a beast of a charger :)
2026-07-08T15:13:42 < mercenary> "charging the device while in use will void any low-noise specifications"
2026-07-08T15:14:27 < catphish> it most certianly will :)
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2026-07-08T15:44:39 < fantanYl> I have planted a Trojan horse
2026-07-08T15:44:50 < fantanYl> now lets wait if it will be recognized or not
2026-07-08T15:47:15 < Steffanx> Very creepy 
2026-07-08T15:55:31 < fantanYl> Packt asked me to do a whatever embedded workshop
2026-07-08T15:55:37 < fantanYl> So I offered them CMRX workshop
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2026-07-08T17:08:11 < catphish> qyx: BQ25185 is the winner (with 1S battery) - this is by far the simplest solution, i just need to work out how to get from 1S to my various isolated higher voltage rails, but that's really much less of a worry
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2026-07-08T17:11:35 < jbo> did somebody say BQ?
2026-07-08T17:49:54 < Steffanx> With GAN
2026-07-08T17:50:04 < Steffanx> Not with other boring stuff
2026-07-08T18:36:38 < zyp> enjoy
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2026-07-08T20:35:42 < catphish> BBQ?
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2026-07-08T22:22:15 < qyx> jbo: I have 3 in my latest design!
2026-07-08T22:22:20 < qyx> expecting some adventures
2026-07-08T22:22:32 < qyx> charger, gauge and protector
2026-07-08T22:22:41 < jbo> yeah that's always fun
2026-07-08T22:22:52 < jbo> mine has only two :<
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2026-07-09T11:17:37 < mawk> machinehum use PUF for your project https://github.com/vonmartins/sram-puf-analysis-stm32
2026-07-09T11:18:11 < mawk> then you forgo the ability to decrypt the data using another device in case the main one breaks 
2026-07-09T11:18:47 < mawk> but you could make a secure backup of the header and store it independently, if backupability is important 
2026-07-09T11:19:10 < mawk> then the data is encrypted using physical characteristics of the MCU itself
2026-07-09T11:19:16 < mawk> and resists a full flash dumping
2026-07-09T11:26:32 < qyx> hm that's actually pretty useful
2026-07-09T11:30:07 < qyx> the problem being you have to extract it before the system runs
2026-07-09T11:30:28 < qyx> and pay attention to not extract it when the memory is already initialized
2026-07-09T11:30:31 < qyx> eg. after soft reset
2026-07-09T12:44:40 < jpa-> or after short power-off
2026-07-09T12:48:38 < fantanYl> so, string composition is almost impossible in vanilla gdb
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2026-07-09T12:55:10 < qyx> I wonder how this behaves on a ECC-enabled SRAM
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2026-07-09T13:49:02 < karlp> what is string composition?
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2026-07-09T14:08:22 < fantanYl> i wanted to compose filename to store dump into based on variable content
2026-07-09T14:08:24 < fantanYl> but fuck it
2026-07-09T14:08:41 < fantanYl> I realized that my flash erase code calling kuba HAL does not erase anything
2026-07-09T14:09:00 < fantanYl> which is clearly a step forward from any attempt to erase any sector performing mass erase
2026-07-09T14:09:05 < fantanYl> but still not what I want
2026-07-09T14:09:27 < qyx> looks like it is broken
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2026-07-09T17:33:05 < qyx> jpa-: basically it should be enough to check if the reset reason is POR
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2026-07-09T20:56:51 < jpa-> qyx: why? i'd expect that for very short power-off durations SRAM would preserve its state
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2026-07-09T21:21:53 < qyx> jpa-: so, what to do? check whether the ram content is truly random first?
2026-07-09T21:23:50 < jpa-> qyx: well if the goal is to be unclonable ("physically unclonable function"), it doesn't help much if someone can first initialize the RAM to be a clone of another device's initial state, and then do a POR
2026-07-09T21:24:43 < jpa-> to me it seems like using the unique id as the key would get pretty much the same advantages
2026-07-09T21:25:09 < jpa-> if you add a salt in a readout-protected flash area, it gets more secure than a PUF approach
2026-07-09T21:25:46 < jpa-> i don't understand how SRAM-based PUF "resists a full flash dumping".. just dump the RAM instead?
2026-07-09T21:30:30 < qyx> ram cannot be dumped when decapping
2026-07-09T21:30:43 < qyx> they probably mean offline dumping
2026-07-09T21:31:03 < qyx> when the target cannot run or is protected by a mostly working readout protection
2026-07-09T21:31:22 < jpa-> isn't decap dumping usually done by just erasing the readout protection bits?
2026-07-09T21:31:41 < jpa-> (via laser or electricity)
2026-07-09T21:32:27 < qyx> mawk hjalp
2026-07-09T21:32:39 < mawk> wat
2026-07-09T21:32:57 < mawk> not sure about that jpa- 
2026-07-09T21:32:58 < qyx> I am being investigated why PUF is great
2026-07-09T21:33:03 < mawk> lol
2026-07-09T21:33:08 < qyx> I think it is great because you said so
2026-07-09T21:33:11 < mawk> well PUF in general is great
2026-07-09T21:33:20 < mawk> PUF on stm32 might potentially be great
2026-07-09T21:33:26 < jpa-> i've used PUF on FPGA and it is nice enough
2026-07-09T21:33:41 < jpa-> i'm not sure what usecase for PUF on STM32 could be devised
2026-07-09T21:36:37 < mawk> removing option bits via decapping worked on the F0
2026-07-09T21:36:45 < mawk> apparently 
2026-07-09T21:36:55 < jpa-> it could resist some attack scenario where all flash can be read, but readout protection cannot be disabled
2026-07-09T21:37:12 < jpa-> but through decapping AFAIK it is much harder to sense the state of a flash cell than to modify the state of a flash cell
2026-07-09T21:46:08 < ds2> qyx can be dumped by freeze attacks
2026-07-09T21:47:10 < qyx> freeze attack of what
2026-07-09T21:47:46 < ds2> of the ram
2026-07-09T21:47:59 < qyx> if the stm can prevent reading sram, then it can do it again when you freeze/unfreeze
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2026-07-09T21:48:19 < qyx> isn't freezing for removable memory readout?
2026-07-09T21:48:29 < qyx> can't see how it is used on an chip-embedded sram
2026-07-09T21:48:32 < ds2> freeze as in low temp so RAM reset is slowed
2026-07-09T21:48:38 < ds2> it'd require decapping
2026-07-09T21:49:47 < qyx> idk it is a rabbit hole, there are many things which can be done
2026-07-09T21:50:31 < ds2> no disagreeing...
2026-07-09T21:50:56 < ds2> just got to make your thing worth less then it cost for the required attack
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2026-07-10T01:54:29 < karlp> just needs to be plausibly better than "admin:admin" to be cra compliant....
2026-07-10T01:54:58 < karlp> you don't need to go to "spare parts replacement will be impossible, and the user expereicen is terrible, but it's sekur3"
2026-07-10T02:34:15 < qyx> no, I am talking about playing and autisming, not about cra compliance :p
2026-07-10T03:05:57 < zyp> I've looked a bit at the cra stuff for work, and my conclusion was that we don't really have to do much that we're not already doing, we just have to document that we're doing it
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2026-07-10T07:14:26 < qyx> yes sane people are safe
2026-07-10T07:14:40 < qyx> are you tracking vulnerabilities too?
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2026-07-10T09:59:38 < jpa-> the scary thing about PUFs is that manufacturers have no guarantees on aging
2026-07-10T09:59:57 < jpa-> so you can't know if your PUF based thing will start losing keys after 5 years
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2026-07-10T10:20:26 < fantanYl> ideal way to implement planned obsolescence \o/
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2026-07-10T10:57:04 < machinehum> mawk: ty
2026-07-10T10:57:15 < machinehum> Implementing AES-XTS as well
2026-07-10T10:57:23 < machinehum> But it's a little slower than CTR
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2026-07-10T12:56:46 < mawk> machinehum: if your sector size is a multiple of 16 you can also do XEX
2026-07-10T12:56:54 < mawk> and skip the ciphertext-stealing 
2026-07-10T12:57:12 < mawk> although I'm not sure if XEX is as secure
2026-07-10T12:58:22 < mawk> seems to be fine as long as you follow the implementation from Rogaway, P.: Efficient Instantiations of Tweakable Blockciphers and Refinements
2026-07-10T12:58:22 < mawk> to Modes OCB and PMAC. In: Lee, P.J. (ed.) ASIACRYPT 2004. LNCS, vol. 3329,
2026-07-10T12:58:22 < mawk> pp. 16–31. Springer, Heidelberg (2004)
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2026-07-10T15:50:14 < machinehum> XEX
2026-07-10T15:50:16 < machinehum> wow
2026-07-10T15:50:37 < machinehum> I'll take a look
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2026-07-10T21:47:03 < catphish> I'm a little confused about the SAI peripheral and clock speeds. I want an input clock of 24.576MHz and an output of 192kHz, 32 bit I2S. I don't need to output a master clock. CubeMX is a bit weird about it - it's telling me that I will only get 96kHz sample rate, but i don't really understand why, i'm hoping it's wrong
2026-07-10T22:01:35 < catphish> I've read the reference manual a couple of times and I'm still not really sure I understand this. I want to take a 24.576 MHz input clock, and outputs I2S bits at 12.288 MHz - seems reasonable, but neither cubeMX not the manual are making it obvious if this will work
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2026-07-10T22:13:29 < catphish> It seems that the MCLK = 256 x Fs is hardwired in F7, that's quite irritating, neither the I2S nor SAI peripherals seem to overcome this
2026-07-10T22:16:23 < catphish> hmm, perhaps SAI can with NODIV, this just isn't well exposed by cubemx
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2026-07-11T01:49:18 < catphish> (it can't)
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2026-07-11T18:39:55 < mawk> bold move posting on r/cryptography machinehum lol
2026-07-11T18:40:13 < mawk> cryptographers are as nitpicky as mathematicians
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2026-07-11T19:26:48 < Steffanx> Imagine being both
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2026-07-11T20:30:25 < qyx> I am so so sad about some of the kicad symbols are still aligned to 50 mil grid
2026-07-11T20:30:54 < qyx> fuk IPC, I don't want any 50 mil in my schematics
2026-07-11T20:31:36 < qyx> actually i don't want any mils in the first place, but that's for another discussion
2026-07-11T20:33:36 < specing>  lol
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2026-07-11T20:42:25 < machinehum> mawk: I am quite a bold fellow
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2026-07-11T21:09:44 < mawk> I got flamed on r/cryptography for describing a protocol like I thought it was working then asking if my understanding was correct
2026-07-11T21:09:50 < mawk> and according to the ones who actually answered I wasn't even incorrect
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2026-07-11T21:39:48 < machinehum> I don't care about getting flamed lol
2026-07-11T21:40:51 < machinehum> I barely care about what my friend/family think about me, let alone random people, let alone random people on the internet
2026-07-11T21:41:40 < machinehum> I just openly disclosed shortcomings and people were like THERE ARE SHORTCOMINGS
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2026-07-11T22:20:40 < catphish> paid for my USB VID today. DAC project is coming along nicely, though the whole USB charging thing is kicking my ass
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2026-07-12T00:37:10 < mawk> nice catphish 
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2026-07-12T16:18:01 < catphish> prety much done with this! https://i.ibb.co/gL2qsqzd/usb-dac.png
2026-07-12T16:18:01 < catphish> the power architecture was a pain, but i think i'm happy now. 2S battery charged from USB, bucked to 5V, feeds a pair of transformers to power the analog side which is all linear. bypassing the battery / charger setup with a solder bridge uses the 5V from USB directly to make a bus powered version and everything else is identical. the only thing i couldnt be bothered to add is BC1.2 - might add that leter if battery power turns out to be useful
2026-07-12T16:18:46 < catphish> STM32 with integrated USB HS feeds I2S data and SPI control through a digital isolator
2026-07-12T16:23:15 < qyx> nooooooo USB-B
2026-07-12T16:23:23 < qyx> the worst connector ever
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2026-07-12T16:33:00 < specing> ragequit!
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2026-07-12T16:33:25 < specing> catphish: yeah for real, why not usb-c and use PPS to get 2S charged?
2026-07-12T16:33:39 < specing> backwards compat?
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2026-07-12T17:41:29 < Steffanx> No temperature sensor on the battery catphish ?
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2026-07-12T19:49:44 < catphish> i decided USB B to ensure compatibility, i don't know exactly what it'll be plugged into
2026-07-12T19:50:57 < catphish> Steffanx: yes and no - i wasn't going to bother on the prototype, but actually i'm going to add mechanical holes etc on this prototype so i'll probably add the temp sensor connector too
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2026-07-12T21:43:04 < catphish> Steffanx: now haz NTC and mounting holes https://i.ibb.co/4ng9FHkx/usb-dac.png
2026-07-12T21:52:03 < qyx> why is the pcb styled that way?
2026-07-12T21:52:31 < qyx> also, unterminated copper peninsulas
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2026-07-12T22:04:23 < catphish> qyx: i remove solder mask to show copper more clearly, otherwise it's just green block
2026-07-12T22:04:38 < catphish> kicad 10 is very bad at rendering copper underneath mask
2026-07-12T22:05:23 < catphish> i didn't go hunting for peninsulas, might be worth doing
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2026-07-12T23:34:43 < qyx> mouser down?
2026-07-12T23:35:11 < Steffanx> Works on my machine 
2026-07-12T23:37:00 < catphish> works for me too
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2026-07-12T23:39:08 < qyx> An unexpected error has occurred. for me
2026-07-12T23:39:30 < qyx> oh lol it fails when searching for a specific component
2026-07-12T23:39:50 < qyx> https://www.mouser.sk/en/Error.aspx?aspxerrorpath=/*/c/semiconductors/integrated-circuits-ics/power-management-ics/voltage-regulators-voltage-controllers/switching-voltage-regulators/
2026-07-12T23:40:13 < qyx> this one https://www.mouser.sk/en/c/semiconductors/power-management-ics/voltage-regulators-voltage-controllers/switching-voltage-regulators/?q=lmr36015
2026-07-12T23:40:41 < qyx> the whole category fails
2026-07-12T23:41:17 < qyx> yes I can't open switching voltage regulators
2026-07-12T23:43:16 < qyx> any voltage regulators from this subtree fail https://www.mouser.sk/en/c/semiconductors/power-management-ics/voltage-regulators-voltage-controllers/
2026-07-12T23:43:34 < qyx> hot swap controllers and LDO controllers work
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2026-07-12T23:54:21 < catphish> qyx: just use an LDO then
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2026-07-13T00:34:18 < qyx> anyway, ordered
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2026-07-13T09:50:32 < fantanYl> catphish: I'd use C, you can always use B-C adaptor
2026-07-13T10:00:47 < mercenary> Or one could use a C-B adapter, and keep the solid B on the board :p
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2026-07-13T17:01:45 < qyx> anyone using docmd? although idk if I wanna touch jabbascript
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2026-07-13T19:20:37 < catphish> in some ways i hate leaning too heavily on AI, but i'm loving it for reviewing my work. today i asked it to download a local copy of JLCPCB's parts library, and it's seemingly incredibly capable of understanding that data and checking both specs and stock levels
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2026-07-13T19:45:03 < infisc> interesting that jlcpcb hasn't implemented a captcha to prevent AIs from hammering their server.
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2026-07-13T22:47:56 < fantanYl> nah, after awfully huge pile of PEBKAC, MCUboot updates firmware
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2026-07-13T23:01:57 < mawk> qyx https://docs.docmd.io/fr/getting-started/installation
2026-07-13T23:01:59 < mawk> lol
2026-07-13T23:02:04 < mawk> awesome
2026-07-13T23:02:15 < mawk> what language are you trying to document
2026-07-13T23:07:30 < fantanYl> I ended up with Hugo + Doxygen + custom XML to Markdown converter
2026-07-13T23:07:38 < fantanYl> for C
2026-07-13T23:08:01 < fantanYl> Doxygen HTML output is awfully awful but probably nothing can beat its ability to extract information from C source
2026-07-13T23:09:52 < veverak> fantanYl: if you care about the css part this cna help: https://jothepro.github.io/doxygen-awesome-css/
2026-07-13T23:11:49 < fantanYl> I tried to tune the CSS but then you have to maintain it between updates... and that's meh
2026-07-13T23:12:11 < fantanYl> funny thing is that Doxygen's awful look is done on purpose
2026-07-13T23:14:30 < veverak> hence the link to the repo as that guy solved it
2026-07-13T23:14:57 < fantanYl> I solved it too by not using HTML output at all
2026-07-13T23:15:49 < mawk> doxygen is not that bad
2026-07-13T23:16:01 < mawk> I make nice graphs in it with plantuml
2026-07-13T23:16:39 < fantanYl> it has quite few annoying bugs if you want to make comprehensive documentation with it, not just API docs
2026-07-13T23:16:53 < fantanYl> like links between markdown pages are broken (or at least used to be)
2026-07-13T23:17:57 < fantanYl> but probably the biggest blocker is that I want to integrate the documentation directly into project's website which contains some other stuff than just API docs and that's almost no-go
2026-07-13T23:18:07 < veverak> ah ture
2026-07-13T23:18:10 < veverak> *true
2026-07-13T23:18:19 < nohit> Is it ?
2026-07-13T23:18:41 < fantanYl> yes, unless you want the layout of your website look like 1997
2026-07-13T23:18:53 < fantanYl> with frameset
2026-07-13T23:19:13 < nohit> Zephyr has quite documentation, api docs + markdown pages
2026-07-13T23:19:31 < nohit> And many other projects toi
2026-07-13T23:20:25 < fantanYl> yes, but that's basically two webs on one domain. doxygen is one part which is completely isolated from the rest
2026-07-13T23:21:42 < mawk> make an iframe
2026-07-13T23:21:51 < mawk> for the website integration 
2026-07-13T23:22:11 < fantanYl> well, for me the problem is solved
2026-07-13T23:22:18 < fantanYl> moooostly
2026-07-13T23:24:32 < nohit> fantanYl: how did you solve it?
2026-07-13T23:25:05 < fantanYl> nohit: I consume XML Doxygen output and pass it to custom Markdown generator. This markdown is then rendered via Hugo with the rest of the web.
2026-07-13T23:25:23 < nohit> Cool
2026-07-13T23:26:46 < nohit> But i think this works great https://docs.zephyrproject.org/latest/index.html
2026-07-13T23:27:01 < fantanYl> that particular page is *not* doxygen-generated
2026-07-13T23:27:03 < nohit> Yes its isolated but it doesnt matter
2026-07-13T23:27:11 < nohit> I know
2026-07-13T23:28:13 < nohit> Api docs is just one sub page of that, and i think its fine
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2026-07-14T01:24:04 < catphish> infisc: competent administrators don't block AI agents, they just make sure they can handle the load. it's not hard to serve out public content that's correctly cached
2026-07-14T01:24:52 < catphish> people who want their company and products to be found need to realise that AI agents will often be the ones looking in behalf of a human now
2026-07-14T01:35:19 < qyx> mawk: none, I want to make a datasheet-like books, the closest was sphinx but it failed with multiple other things
2026-07-14T01:35:36 < mawk> o
2026-07-14T01:36:02 < qyx> also github refuses to render rst properly, that's why markdown is prefered since I don't want to write the same content multiple times
2026-07-14T01:36:50 < qyx> I am not a fan of doxygen extractors despite being a fan of doxygen markup to document the code
2026-07-14T01:57:43 < zyp> qyx, have you tried mkdocs? I've had some success with that, as an alternative to sphinx
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2026-07-14T02:10:18 < mawk> I made a JSON to BER ASN.1 parser
2026-07-14T02:10:26 < mawk> or rather YAML
2026-07-14T02:20:19 < mawk> like this https://paste.serveur.io/raw/a3UyYKbo.txt
2026-07-14T02:20:50 < mawk> I made a pretty macro !x to have hex values in the yaml
2026-07-14T02:25:04 < qyx> zyp: I avoided that one for some reason
2026-07-14T02:25:45 < qyx> I mean because of some blocking issue I have with it
2026-07-14T02:25:55 < qyx> like, using gradients on their web
2026-07-14T02:26:50 < mawk> lol
2026-07-14T02:29:35 < zyp> oh, yeah, fuck the default styling, use mkdocs-material or something
2026-07-14T02:30:46 < qyx> so far it looks better than the mdbook rust abomination
2026-07-14T02:30:57 < qyx> at least it uses a more sane language
2026-07-14T02:31:24 < zyp> here's some stuff I made with it: https://dump.jvnv.net/katsuo-stream/
2026-07-14T02:31:40 < qyx> and doesn't compile half of a cargo ship to run
2026-07-14T02:32:47 < qyx> tabkes look good
2026-07-14T02:33:02 < qyx> I hope it supports figure numbering
2026-07-14T02:33:07 < qyx> and section numbering
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2026-07-14T10:02:04 < qyx> zyp: oh mkdocs has no release since Aug 2024
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2026-07-14T10:12:56 < qyx> oh admonitions have non-github syntax
2026-07-14T10:44:16 < qyx> https://squidfunk.github.io/mkdocs-material/blog/2026/02/18/mkdocs-2.0/
2026-07-14T10:44:22 < qyx> ah this was the issue I had
2026-07-14T10:45:41 < qyx> ok, removing, it is not worth the hassle and energy
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2026-07-14T13:03:03 < catphish> woo, i haz 0x39dc
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2026-07-14T13:40:24 < mawk> gg catphish 
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2026-07-14T14:41:57 < zyp> qyx, hmm, probably around that long since I did that documentation as well
2026-07-14T14:45:56 < qyx> I don't understand that reasoning
2026-07-14T14:47:22 < zyp> as long as zensical is a straightforward migration, I'm not too worried
2026-07-14T14:48:29 < catphish> i'm still irritated about the SAI peripheral not having a simple upfront clock divider
2026-07-14T14:52:12 < catphish> actually, maybe it does, and i just need to learn how to use it in the way i want to use it
2026-07-14T14:53:49 < zyp> doesn't it typically have it's own PLL output (or even it's own whole PLL)?
2026-07-14T14:58:20 < catphish> Sadly no
2026-07-14T14:58:32 < catphish> at least not in this STM32F723
2026-07-14T14:59:19 < catphish> the dedicated input feeds straight to the SAI and I2S peripherals, which have their own opinionated clock configurations
2026-07-14T15:01:39 < zyp> uh, F723 has «PLLSAI»
2026-07-14T15:02:26 < catphish> oh, yes it does, but it takes HSE as an input, not the I2S clock input
2026-07-14T15:02:32 < catphish> which means it's useless if you also need USB
2026-07-14T15:02:54 < catphish> so yes, it has a dedicated PLL, but not a very useful one
2026-07-14T15:03:29 < zyp> true, they should have had an input mux for it
2026-07-14T15:03:37 < zyp> what freq do you need?
2026-07-14T15:05:53 < catphish> what i actually need: input from external clock: 24.576MHz. Bit clock: 12.288MHz (192kHz, 32 bit, 2 channels) MCLK output: not used, doesn't matter
2026-07-14T15:06:59 < catphish> now in theory, this should be as simple as setting MCKDIV=1 (/1) and FRL=1 (/2) and NODIV=0 (to enable both dividers)
2026-07-14T15:08:24 < zyp> hmm, what are the limits on PLL VCO and PFD freqs?
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2026-07-14T15:08:51 < catphish> but i'm seriously confused by the documentation, and cubeMX, which both insist that the master clock must be 256x the sample rate - i don't see why that's necessary, but i don't want to risk a mistake here
2026-07-14T15:09:41 < catphish> i can absolutely fix this with a mess of external components, but i would very much prefer to avoid that
2026-07-14T15:11:17 < zyp> IIRC PFD freq was recommended to be in the 1-2 MHz range on older parts, so you can do 24.576 / 16 * 125 to get 192 MHz, assuming that's within VCO limits, then divide by 4 to get 48 MHz for USB
2026-07-14T15:13:07 < zyp> and then obviously multiples of those factors would also work as long as the PLL limits are respected
2026-07-14T15:13:32 < zyp> so I don't think it's impossible to both generate the USB clock and the SAI clock from the same source
2026-07-14T15:15:42 < zyp> in any case, to get 48 MHz from 24.576 MHz, it must be multiplied by 5**3 at some point
2026-07-14T15:17:24 < zyp> typically as long as you can fit the missing factors in the multiplication stage, it'll work out, since it's much easier to get rid of extraneous factors by dividing
2026-07-14T15:18:15 < catphish> you're right, that's definitely a possibility, though not one i'm enourmously keen on, but for a reason that isn't hugely important - i can't turn on that osciullator while charging, which means i have to completely ignore the USB requirment to enumerate in order to drawn more than 100mA
2026-07-14T15:18:34 < catphish> that is a spec i'm willing to ignore if it comes down to necessity though
2026-07-14T15:18:58 < catphish> because afaik everyone ignores that
2026-07-14T15:19:29 < catphish> i'm also concerned that clock might not be clean enough by the time it's been through my isolator, but not sure if that matters
2026-07-14T15:19:36 < zyp> 1: where does that limitation come from?
2026-07-14T15:19:37 < catphish> in any case, it's messy, but definitely a possible solution
2026-07-14T15:20:49 < catphish> my analog setup draws enough power to use most of teh USB power budget, so it can't be on while charging, it would never charge, and with it off, i can't negotiate for more than 100mA, which is also silly
2026-07-14T15:21:02 < zyp> 2: the reason «nobody cares» about the 100mA limit is that there's a number of other ways to negotiate current capacity that does not rely on enumeration
2026-07-14T15:21:59 < zyp> what's your power budget? 500mA?
2026-07-14T15:22:01 < catphish> well, i was considering adding CDP/DCP detection, but it still needs to work on a normal USB port really
2026-07-14T15:22:05 < catphish> yeah 500mA
2026-07-14T15:24:07 < zyp> if you weren't so hooked on legacy USB connectors, you could just have the host tell you «sure, go ahead and draw 3A if you want» by applying a pullup on the CC line :p  
2026-07-14T15:24:24 < catphish> well that's also true
2026-07-14T15:24:53 < zyp> I would expect most USB-C host ports to support >500mA
2026-07-14T15:25:11 < catphish> 900mA is teh minimum on USB-C
2026-07-14T15:25:13 < zyp> although you'd still need to fall back to BC for A-C-cables
2026-07-14T15:25:15 < qyx> isn't 900 mA minimum for usb-c dfp?
2026-07-14T15:25:18 < zyp> no, it's not
2026-07-14T15:25:22 < catphish> isn't it?
2026-07-14T15:25:25 < zyp> no
2026-07-14T15:25:43 < zyp> USB-C has three power classes; 3A, 1.5A and «legacy»
2026-07-14T15:26:38 < catphish> USB 2.0 is 500mA, USB 3.2 is 900mA, i have no idea why a USB 2.0 USB-C port would exiswt
2026-07-14T15:26:45 < zyp> «legacy» means «fuck knows what this port supports, fall back to BC or whatever is enumerated»
2026-07-14T15:27:10 < qyx> catphish: my dataloggers have usb 2.0 usb-c ports
2026-07-14T15:27:11 < catphish> but i suppose it gets messy because a USB C port should be connected to a USB A port
2026-07-14T15:27:37 < zyp> catphish, you're not making a USB3 device, so the 900mA limit doesn't apply
2026-07-14T15:27:53 < zyp> it only applies in USB3 mode
2026-07-14T15:27:54 < catphish> what even makes a device USB 3?
2026-07-14T15:28:01 < catphish> does it have to be superspeed?
2026-07-14T15:28:04 < zyp> yes
2026-07-14T15:28:20 < catphish> that part i didn't know, makes more sense now
2026-07-14T15:28:32 < catphish> i assumed USB 3 was everything USB-C onwards
2026-07-14T15:28:42 < zyp> USB2 is a superset of USB1, USB3 is an entirely separate bus running in parallel
2026-07-14T15:28:56 < zyp> and USB-C is way newer than USB3
2026-07-14T15:29:06 < catphish> good point
2026-07-14T15:29:29 < catphish> USB 3 B is my favourite
2026-07-14T15:29:41 < qyx> oh do you remember that usb3 micro-b abomination
2026-07-14T15:30:13 < qyx> even usb3 usb-b!
2026-07-14T15:30:26 < catphish> anyway, all i really want is to work out if SAI can do a 192kHz sample rate with a 12.288MHz bit clock from a 24.576MHz input
2026-07-14T15:30:45 < catphish> qyx: i prefer to forget USB-3-Micro-B
2026-07-14T15:30:54 < qyx> also mini-b :P
2026-07-14T15:31:03 < catphish> though i do have 2 external hard drives with that connector
2026-07-14T15:31:08 < qyx> same here
2026-07-14T15:31:18 < qyx> they don't work anymore because of broken connectors
2026-07-14T15:31:35 < catphish> i'm sure SAI can do 192kHz sample rate with a 12.288MHz bit clock, the problem is whether it's opinionated about sample rate
2026-07-14T15:31:48 < catphish> err i mean...
2026-07-14T15:32:08 < catphish> i'm sure it can do a bit clock of 12.288MHz with an input of 24.576MHz
2026-07-14T15:32:32 < catphish> but i don't know if that will confuse it with regard to sample rate
2026-07-14T15:32:55 < catphish> i don't see why it should, number of bits per channel is just another divider, but i don't want to guess
2026-07-14T15:33:33 < catphish> i think "29.3.6 Frame synchronization" will answe my question
2026-07-14T15:34:15 < catphish> while i wait for parts, i'll just get a dev board and try it
2026-07-14T15:37:14 < machinehum> Hmm
2026-07-14T15:37:25 < machinehum> Should I get drunk tonight for no reason
2026-07-14T15:37:40 < Steffanx> No.
2026-07-14T15:37:50 < machinehum> Why not?
2026-07-14T15:38:05 < Steffanx> Ah why not. Don't forget to invite jbo 
2026-07-14T15:38:48 < catphish> No
2026-07-14T15:43:33 < catphish> Thie design is very odd, the master clock to bit clock divider, and the bit per frame counter are the same regsiter - FRL
2026-07-14T15:43:37 < catphish> why would the do that :'(
2026-07-14T15:44:45 < catphish> the reference manual just says (in its own kind of English): "In the SAI, the single ratio MCLK/FS = 256 is considered."
2026-07-14T15:51:27 < machinehum> Has anyone ever routed camera sensors?
2026-07-14T15:54:33 < machinehum> I'm wondering if they're fussy wrg. parts on the same side of the sensor https://i.imgur.com/POVn1Sh.png
2026-07-14T15:54:55 < machinehum> I can't fine anything in the datasheet saying it's prohibited
2026-07-14T15:54:59 < machinehum> Also I know that routing sucks
2026-07-14T15:59:38 < catphish> yeah, this isn't going to work, i'm baffled why SAI NODIV gates MCKDIV, if they just didn't do that, this would be easy, and there's no reason to bypass it, as it can be set to /1 anyway
2026-07-14T16:00:00 < catphish> i'm glad i've never been anywhere near camera sensors
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2026-07-14T17:47:25 < mawk> are all your products vulnerable to the fatfs vulns too?
2026-07-14T17:47:33 < mawk> I opened a bug report at st
2026-07-14T17:47:47 < mawk> and harassed François the field engineer
2026-07-14T17:48:43 < fantanYl> what do they have? some RCE?
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2026-07-14T17:50:59 < fantanYl> hm, nice set of vulnerabilities. I might integrate FATFS into CMRX to see how much of this would normally be caught by MPU and what would pass
2026-07-14T17:54:54 < qyx> because fatfs is a piece of .. bad code
2026-07-14T18:01:51 < Steffanx> Just crash my device if you feel like it. Good luck :P
2026-07-14T18:02:32 < Steffanx> *your 
2026-07-14T18:10:07 < fantanYl> at least I have a showcase example :>
2026-07-14T18:23:51 < catphish> confirmed - my desired I2S configuration definitely isn't possible - both the SAI and I2S/SPI peripherals require a clock speed of 256 x the sample rate, or in the case of SAI, a bit clock equal to the incoming clock speed. there's no way to do a simple upfront division unless you use the PLL for this
2026-07-14T18:28:25 < catphish> zyp: oh - apparently for USB you have to use a specific HSE frequency (12, 12.5, 16, 24, 25 or 32 MHz), generating 48MHz from something else with the PLL isn't good enough
2026-07-14T18:28:54 < qyx> why
2026-07-14T18:29:15 < qyx> yes for bootloader you have to, but otherwise I don't know about any limitation
2026-07-14T18:29:22 < catphish> i don't know, i haven't found a source for this, so far just an error in cubemx stating what i said
2026-07-14T18:29:23 < qyx> well, unless it is generated from a RC
2026-07-14T18:29:57 < qyx> why are you using F7 by the way?
2026-07-14T18:30:09 < qyx> some kind of torture?
2026-07-14T18:31:14 < catphish> i see why, the USB HS PHY has its own PLL that only accepts those frequencies
2026-07-14T18:31:22 < catphish> PLL1SEL[2:0]: Controls the PHY PLL1 input clock frequency selection
2026-07-14T18:32:05 < catphish> i'm using it because it's the only chip with a HS PHY
2026-07-14T18:32:15 < qyx> yeah
2026-07-14T18:32:16 < catphish> and i thought it would be easier than wiring in a PHY
2026-07-14T18:32:32 < qyx> I remmeber I had the same idea in the past
2026-07-14T18:34:29 < catphish> is there a less shit STM32 I can use with an external PHY, and if so, what STM32, and what PHY?
2026-07-14T18:43:45 < catphish> H7 and ULPI interface i guess
2026-07-14T18:45:57 < zyp> oh, HS? that needs 60 MHz not 48
2026-07-14T18:50:41 < catphish> that makes sense, i guess 48MHz was a total tangent
2026-07-14T18:51:13 < catphish> i'm contemplating whether an H7 with a USB3300 is a much better configuration
2026-07-14T18:52:13 < zyp> IIRC USB3300 has the ULPI clock provided by the PHY
2026-07-14T18:52:30 < zyp> so the MCU doesn't have to generate the USB clock at all
2026-07-14T18:53:16 < catphish> yep - Internal PLL for 480MHz Hi-Speed USB operation
2026-07-14T18:53:28 < catphish> "Integrated 24MHz Crystal Oscillator supports either crystal operation or 24MHz external clock input"
2026-07-14T18:53:44 < catphish> this probably solves the problem 2 ways at once
2026-07-14T18:54:06 < zyp> all PHYs have internal PLL for the 480MHz side, the question is which side provides the 60 MHz ULPI interface clock
2026-07-14T18:54:34 < zyp> and IIRC USB3343 is the only common one that supports clock *in*
2026-07-14T18:55:39 < catphish> i see, so the PHY usually has a crystal and drives the clock back to the STM32?
2026-07-14T18:55:45 < zyp> (when hooking up to a FPGA, having the FPGA provide the clock makes everything easier, and all my recent ULPI designs have been with FPGA)
2026-07-14T18:55:52 < zyp> yup
2026-07-14T18:56:23 < catphish> i have just one question
2026-07-14T18:57:04 < catphish> what psychopath thought it was a good idea to put the ULPI data pins on all 4 sides of a QFP
2026-07-14T18:57:29 < catphish> how in god's name am i supposed to match those
2026-07-14T18:57:39 < zyp> idk, the USB3343 has a pretty reasonable pinout
2026-07-14T18:57:50 < zyp> who cares, they're only 60MHz
2026-07-14T18:57:58 < zyp> and not even DDR
2026-07-14T18:59:28 < zyp> here's my most recent ULPI design, see page 5 for layout: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/3dPf7/ecp5_versa_expansion.pdf
2026-07-14T19:01:53 < catphish> interesting
2026-07-14T19:07:34 < Steffanx> Even my YOLO usb3300 layout worked fine. So it cannot be hard if you give it some more attention ;)
2026-07-14T19:11:25 < catphish> the I2S clock setup is still confusing on the H7
2026-07-14T19:11:44 < Steffanx> Using HS and FS at the same time using Zephyr was the bigger (but still not that big) challenge. (Why zephyr? Because I felt like trying it and because it has the audio class driver).
2026-07-14T19:13:02 < Steffanx> But out of the box it was either HS or full speed, but not both at the same time. Maybe they fixed it in the mean time.
2026-07-14T19:26:39 < catphish> CubeMX claims the H7 I2S can so 192kHz from a 24.576MHz dedicated clock
2026-07-14T20:17:13 < catphish> yep, the H7 I2S peripheral can do the simple and obvious thing of just dividing the master clock by 2 to get the data clock, but this comes at the cost of needing the external PHY
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2026-07-14T21:28:31 < catphish> i think if i really care about this, my sanest option is a dop in replacement H7
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2026-07-14T21:42:54 < catphish> which i don't, i'll just use a higher clock frequency that SAI likes
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2026-07-15T12:18:17 < qyx> Zensical is written in Rust and Python, and is published as a Python package.
2026-07-15T12:18:20 < qyx> whyyyyy
2026-07-15T12:18:25 < qyx> why rust again
2026-07-15T12:34:02 < Steffanx> Why are you even looking at it. Didn't you listen to dongs? Python and Rust in one sentence. Can it get worse?
2026-07-15T12:50:43 < specing> qyx: vibe code a C++ version, you have the power
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2026-07-15T14:46:07 < qyx> ok zensical is great, it supports nearly everything I wanted
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2026-07-15T16:19:19 < machinehum> https://github.com/zensical/zensical
2026-07-15T16:19:23 < machinehum> qyx: That?
2026-07-15T16:20:28 < qyx> https://zensical.org/
2026-07-15T16:20:31 < qyx> pip install zensical
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2026-07-15T21:39:40 < qyx> hey zyp, whats the state of your laks usb driver?
2026-07-15T21:44:43 < qyx> or maybe I should ask karl
2026-07-15T22:00:24 < fantanYl> kks. nasiel som presny commit ktory mam v trashcane velmi vedeckou metodou
2026-07-15T22:12:33 < qyx> really
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2026-07-16T02:06:11 < zyp> qyx, it should work like it always did; what particular chip?
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2026-07-16T08:15:24 < qyx> zyp: g4, haven't even checked the controller yet
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2026-07-16T12:34:38 < zyp> I think g4 should be v3 of the ST core, same as g0
2026-07-16T12:34:51 < zyp> and that is supported, but platform definitions for g4 might be missing
2026-07-16T12:36:38 < zyp> nah, karlp already added those, but usb seems to be missing
2026-07-16T12:36:43 < zyp> should be an easy addition
2026-07-16T12:41:38 < Steffanx> You sure you want to use semi-abandoned software ;) Last update 3-4 years ago
2026-07-16T12:41:40 < Steffanx> ?
2026-07-16T12:43:08 < zyp> that's okay, karlp likes to maintain semi-abandoned projects
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2026-07-16T12:54:14 < qyx> Steffanx: no, I will pay my AI friend to de-c++ it, make it current and nice, with zyp's copyright :P
2026-07-16T12:54:23 < Steffanx> I see.
2026-07-16T12:54:42 < qyx> I want a simple in-tree lib and I am quite reluctant to vibecode it completely
2026-07-16T12:56:29 < Steffanx> I tried to use codex to review my code. It claimed I couldn't use TCM for my DMA buffers. When I asked it it was sure. It corrected itself
2026-07-16T12:56:53 < Steffanx> When I ran it again it made the same claim. -_-
2026-07-16T12:57:14 < Steffanx> I was disappointed. 
2026-07-16T12:57:34 < qyx> and can you?
2026-07-16T12:57:39 < qyx> use tcm for dma buffers?
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2026-07-16T13:09:08 < qyx> anyway, mouser arrived, finally after 4 days
2026-07-16T13:11:49 < zyp> qyx, depends on the exact chip
2026-07-16T13:12:40 < zyp> some setups does let DMA masters access TCM, others doesn't
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2026-07-16T13:50:59 < Steffanx> Yes. For this F7 you can do it
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2026-07-16T14:35:26 < machinehum> You have to be careful for this AI shit but it's very useful for review IMO
2026-07-16T14:36:06 < machinehum> Mainly for my USB drive, because then I can figure out all the bullshit issues "people" will open
2026-07-16T14:37:33 < machinehum> There's some llm project that combs over projects and opens issues automatically with alarmist titles
2026-07-16T14:38:07 < machinehum> "something something buffer overflow"
2026-07-16T14:38:19 < machinehum> Read the code like wtf this was a waste my time
2026-07-16T14:48:33 < BrainDamage> using another LLM to filter out LLM is an amazing example of "create a problem and sell the solution"
2026-07-16T14:55:29 < catphish> lol I'm finding Claude super useful for reviews, and actually writing some code now too, but it's absolutely infuriating how people seem to increasingly blindly trust these AI models
2026-07-16T14:58:00 < specing> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification#/media/File:AI_Overviews_result_for_%22how_to_pass_kidney_stones...%22,_May_22,_2024.jpg
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2026-07-16T15:18:15 < machinehum> I find it will write nearly unreadable code
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2026-07-16T17:56:42 < qyx> U5 CMSIS names the field USART_TDR_TDR (no _Msk)
2026-07-16T17:56:43 < qyx> why, ST
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2026-07-17T00:30:00 < catphish> i will definitely be picking up my FX5+ECP5 board again - with the likey addition of a Si5340 to give a super accurate programmable clock for whatever analog peripherals i add
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2026-07-17T03:14:03 < zyp> catphish, I've found that the issue with clock generators like that is that they tend to not actually be as flexible as you'd like for a general purpose design
2026-07-17T03:17:45 < zyp> as in, I've wanted one that can both provide serdes reference clocks as well as fabric clocks and maybe other peripheral clocks like for ethernet
2026-07-17T03:18:48 < zyp> at first glance, a clock generator with both multiple inputs and multiple outputs looks suitable for that
2026-07-17T03:21:49 < zyp> but most of them have an input mux that selects a single reference input first, and then derives everything from that, and that doesn't work when you might want to generate some of the clocks from an external input
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2026-07-17T10:06:21 < qyx> awww missing i2c pullups
2026-07-17T10:06:52 < qyx> when will ST realize we should have configurable pulls on GPIO?
2026-07-17T10:30:21 < mawk> what do you mean? isn't it already the case?
2026-07-17T10:30:55 < qyx> configurable strenght I mean
2026-07-17T10:31:38 < mawk> o
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2026-07-17T12:02:00 < machinehum> I think I once got away with the internal pullups for initial testing
2026-07-17T12:04:21 < machinehum> Drone tester submitted an issues: IMU readings too high, second issues sent to mech "prop screw turns endlessly", third issue ESCs running at different RPMs
2026-07-17T12:44:10 < catphish> lol
2026-07-17T12:44:17 < catphish> machinehum: you building drone?
2026-07-17T12:44:52 < machinehum> I work for a drone company yeah
2026-07-17T12:45:20 < catphish> that's fun, military stuffs? or fun stuffs?
2026-07-17T12:47:33 < machinehum> Nah mapping
2026-07-17T12:47:47 < machinehum> Survey drones, fixed wing VTOL
2026-07-17T13:03:06 < catphish> cool
2026-07-17T13:03:23 < catphish> i love writing code for drones
2026-07-17T13:04:18 < catphish> i have a super simple open source stm32 quadrotor for educational purposes
2026-07-17T13:04:43 < qyx> if you want super simple, do it with relays!
2026-07-17T13:04:58 < catphish> relays are a little bit slow :)
2026-07-17T13:05:28 < qyx> actually we considered building a relay-controlled line follower robot once
2026-07-17T13:06:01 < catphish> for a drone i guess you need relays and mercury tilt switches
2026-07-17T13:07:19 < qyx> nah a mechanical gyro
2026-07-17T13:07:54 < qyx> with a small weight on one side to compensate drifts
2026-07-17T13:08:08 < qyx> and a magnet on top :D
2026-07-17T13:08:20 < catphish> good idea
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2026-07-17T14:08:37 < mercenary> pendulum drone. have a 2-axis pendulum sticking out underneath the drone, and steer it with that.
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2026-07-17T15:10:14 < qyx> also battery charging works, great
2026-07-17T15:10:31 < qyx> so internal pullups are good enough
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2026-07-17T16:36:49 < catphish> i'm sure if your signals are sufficiently slow, internal pullups are absolutely fine
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2026-07-17T17:01:47 < Steffanx> But strict I2C fall and rise times.. 
2026-07-17T17:04:39 < mercenary> One should write a book, "The Rise and Fall of the Clock Signal"
2026-07-17T17:08:29 < catphish> hmm, i hadn't considered rise time
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2026-07-18T00:03:56 < catphish> zyp: that makes sense about the clock generator. they seem like they can produce a lot from a single input though, i'm hoping a single 25MHz input is enough to everything i will realistically need
2026-07-18T00:06:33 < catphish> my instinct is to wire up a single 25MHz crystal, then make all the outputs available to both the FPGA clock pins and the downstream connector. in my use case, it'll generate 100MHz for the FX5<->ECP5 interface, and one further output, at a configurable rate for whatever ADC/DAC board is hooked up
2026-07-18T00:17:16 < catphish> thinking further about this, but i feel like the multiple inputs are more for phase sync than making more frequencies. and i wanted to make these boards sync'able with each other, so i will likely expose one of the clock inputs, and one of the clock outputs, on RF connectors, for that purpose
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2026-07-18T02:23:43 < zyp> catphish, depending on the chip, you typically only get a single PLL, but fractional dividers for the output
2026-07-18T02:28:23 < zyp> my issue is that I need a serdes reference clock, and it needs to be 200MHz for 5G operation, so for pcie gen2 downstream operation, I need a clock chip that can double the normal pcie refclk
2026-07-18T02:30:02 < zyp> and then I also want to be able to generate the clock locally, either for upstream mode, or for doing other stuff, so a crystal on a second oscillator input is convenient
2026-07-18T02:32:09 < zyp> and then it'd be nice if I could also derive other clocks from the oscillator to avoid the need for more oscillators in the design
2026-07-18T02:35:24 < zyp> but to use an external reference for the serdes, I also have to use it for all the other outputs, and I need the system clock before the external clock might be available
2026-07-18T02:39:02 < zyp> as for clock IO on RF connectors, I've been adding u.fl connectors to the past couple boards I've made for that purpose: https://photos.app.goo.gl/CqZq8j3FLNaFns5K7
2026-07-18T02:40:28 < zyp> so far I've only used them as high quality probe points for scoping the clocks, but that alone is really useful
2026-07-18T02:43:49 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/QgxhO.png here's the 25 MHz crystal reference on ch4, derived 100 MHz clocks on ch2/3 and serdes data on ch1
2026-07-18T02:45:44 < zyp> serdes data is K28.7 at 5GT/s; K28.7 encodes as 0011111000 or the inverse, i.e. a continous stream of five ones and five zeroes, so it effectively makes a square wave at a tenth of the bitrate
2026-07-18T02:46:26 < zyp> I'm pretty happy that my ~~70~~ 350 MHz scope can pick that up that well :)
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2026-07-18T10:08:37 < catphish> zyp: thanks, i'll check the details to see if one PLL chip can do both the 100MHz and the DAC/ADC clock. if not, i'll add a dedicated 100MHz oscillator to be safe
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2026-07-18T14:56:58 < qyx> @11q
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2026-07-18T15:26:45 < jbo> qyx, I just successfully measured 3.72V on the cell
2026-07-18T15:27:03 < jbo> guess I'll already pull the pin on the fire extinguisher
2026-07-18T15:28:54 < qyx> jbo: oh you are fine up to about 5V
2026-07-18T15:29:08 < qyx> dischatge it to a safe level
2026-07-18T15:29:27 < qyx> don't keep it at such a high voltage
2026-07-18T15:29:48 < jbo> oh really? that high? good to know
2026-07-18T15:29:56 < jbo> did you... learn that the hard way? :D
2026-07-18T15:30:00 < jbo> hmm yeah, good point
2026-07-18T15:32:35 < zyp> what cell?
2026-07-18T15:32:44 < jbo> lifepo4
2026-07-18T15:33:01 < jbo> 5V seems nigh
2026-07-18T15:33:05 < jbo> high*
2026-07-18T15:34:33 < qyx> jbo: of course haooened multiple times
2026-07-18T15:37:58 < qyx> if the pack is only manually balanced, it can happen, but if you keep it charging at that high voltage, it just makes gas and swells
2026-07-18T15:38:52 < jbo> I only see a 3.72V spike when the charger engages, afterwards it drops to 3.65V as it should
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2026-07-18T16:47:37 < catphish> wow UPS suck at delivering stuff
2026-07-18T17:08:06 < Steffanx> They all do
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2026-07-18T20:18:45 < fantanYl> +1
2026-07-18T21:16:39 < catphish> Steffanx: i've had really good times with fedex
2026-07-18T21:16:44 < catphish> not so much the others
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2026-07-18T22:12:08 < Steffanx> Until you don't ;)
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2026-07-19T00:59:25 < catphish> this is an interesting cable that was surprisingly difficult to buy off the shelf https://i.ibb.co/qMHcTw1R/PXL-20260718-161502475.jpg
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2026-07-19T03:11:53 < zyp> 50 or 75 ohms?
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2026-07-19T10:45:12 < catphish> zyp: i'm fairly sure it's 50 ohm, weirdly it's not specified, and now that i think about it, maybe that's a atrange choice. it's designed specifically for this https://quantasylum.com/products/qa403-audio-analyzer
2026-07-19T10:46:19 < mercenary> what, no metal XLRs?
2026-07-19T10:46:30 < catphish> i also intend to plug it into my oscilloscope - to be honest i hadn't given much thought to cable impedance when i designed the output, since it's only audio
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2026-07-19T11:13:29 < catphish> zyp: looks like that Si5340 clock generator will be good enough for my use. it does indeed have an input mux to a single master oscillator, then a fractional divider. i gues sometimes you might want to sync to multiple things but i won't worry too much about that. i just want to be able to either run standalone, or sunc to an incoming 10MHz reference. the plan is to use the 4 outputs on it. 1) for the 100MHz clock for the GPIF III 2) for a 10MHz output 
2026-07-19T11:13:29 < catphish> that can be daisychained 3+4) 2 x configurable clocks for whatever plug downsteam of teh FPGA
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2026-07-19T23:53:44 < catphish> i just bought domain name for new electronics company :)
2026-07-19T23:54:31 < Steffanx> catphish.co.uk?
2026-07-19T23:57:38 < catphish> hambledon.com
2026-07-19T23:57:50 < catphish> interestingly i've never bought catphish as a domain name
2026-07-19T23:58:11 < qyx> oh it is catphish
2026-07-19T23:58:24 < qyx> I have always read it captish
2026-07-19T23:58:44 < catphish> lol
2026-07-19T23:58:54 < catphish> it's catphish, like the fish
2026-07-19T23:59:08 < catphish> but with a ph, becaise it seemed edgy when i was 15
2026-07-19T23:59:41 < fantanYl> some english names sound as if englishmen were primitive people
2026-07-19T23:59:43 < fantanYl> eggplant
2026-07-19T23:59:45 < fantanYl> catfish
--- Day changed ma heinä 20 2026
2026-07-20T00:00:10 < catphish> lmao catphish.com is for sale for $14,000 - good luck with that
2026-07-20T00:00:50 < catphish> pretty sure catfish is an american animal
2026-07-20T00:02:06 < fantanYl> not just american, these fish live globally in river waters
2026-07-20T00:02:12 < catphish> anyway, hambledon is a large hillfort adjacent to my new house, i think it will make a nice brand
2026-07-20T00:02:48 < fantanYl> wel, that's japanese style of naming things.
2026-07-20T00:02:57 < fantanYl> futaba controllers? named by Futaba prefekture
2026-07-20T00:03:43 < catphish> [location] [industry] is a pretty standard british thing, proably the same in most countries
2026-07-20T00:04:07 < catphish> website in progress, needs more content before finished file:///home/charlie/Website/public/index.html
2026-07-20T00:04:09 < catphish> oops
2026-07-20T00:04:53 < Steffanx> That's even worse than linking to localhost :P
2026-07-20T00:06:58 < catphish> this is what i maybe meant to link https://nes-ltd.co.uk/newsite/
2026-07-20T00:06:58 < catphish> currently a bit generic, needs some life injected into it, and some content
2026-07-20T00:08:45 < qyx> too many AI generated pictures
2026-07-20T00:09:40 < catphish> there are precisely 2 pictures of unknown origin
2026-07-20T00:10:36 < catphish> (they might be AI, though i didn't generate them, they're more likely real stock photos) i'll try to replace them with my own
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2026-07-20T10:36:16 < catphish> well this nearly cost me a board repair: https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/esd321.pdf
2026-07-20T10:36:16 < catphish> page 3 - they siddenly swap the pins, and mark the aonode end of the diode
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2026-07-20T11:32:05 < infisc> different package. still doesn't make sense though
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2026-07-20T11:43:03 < catphish> yeah, different package, nothing's strictly "wrong", but i made 2 mistakes: 1) I assumed the mark on the diode would be at the cathode, like every other diode and 2) i read the wrong table on that page
2026-07-20T11:43:27 < catphish> fortunately JLCPCB questioned it before manufacturing the prototype
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2026-07-20T12:00:34 < qyx> prototype jlcpcb pcba? O_o
2026-07-20T12:00:38 < qyx> how much was the shipping?
2026-07-20T12:09:59 < Steffanx> What's weird about getting 3 assembled pcb from jlcpcb?
2026-07-20T12:11:39 < qyx> 3 prototypes? O_o
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2026-07-20T12:40:15 < Steffanx> Chats what your AI friend told me to do
2026-07-20T12:40:20 < Steffanx> That's*
2026-07-20T12:42:26 < Steffanx> Anyway, if you need more you get more. If you need less you have 2 spare
2026-07-20T12:43:25 < qyx> I mean, I am doing this for the last 15 years professionally but I would not dare expect my protos work :P
2026-07-20T12:43:33 < qyx> I always start with a single one
2026-07-20T12:43:41 < fantanYl> aaaand, another talk accepted
2026-07-20T12:51:47 < catphish> Steffanx: what's weird is only that they don't offer that option :)
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2026-07-20T12:52:37 < catphish> qyx: shipping was $33 USD to UK
2026-07-20T12:54:55 < catphish> $454 including all the parts, assembly, shipping and VAT, for 2 boards, certainly the most expensive board i've ever ordered
2026-07-20T13:00:20 < qyx> uhm, I paid 405€ for 5 big assembled boards and another 10 PCBs
2026-07-20T13:00:38 < qyx> 80€ was shipping, that's the reason I am asking
2026-07-20T13:03:29 < tomeaton17> Seems a lot for shipping, last big jlc order I did was £45 for shipping and that was 30 boards
2026-07-20T13:07:24 < catphish> 80 EUR does seem a lot for shipping, it usually startes at around 30, then scaled up with size/weight
2026-07-20T13:07:29 < catphish> *starts
2026-07-20T13:08:47 < qyx> those were 35 cm long boards, 2.5 kg
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2026-07-20T15:36:10 < infisc> 248MHz STM32 with integrated CPLD:  https://www.agm-micro.com/products.aspx?lang=&id=3112&p=37
2026-07-20T15:48:19 < Steffanx> *stm32 clone
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2026-07-20T16:32:08 < zyp> «CPLD» as in an actual CPLD, or as in a nonvolatile FPGA?
2026-07-20T16:33:26 < zyp> hmm, risc-v cpu, hardly a stm32 clone when it doesn't have some degree of binary compatibility
2026-07-20T16:47:11 < Steffanx> Oh not even a clone -_-
2026-07-20T16:48:16 < jbo> hello crew
2026-07-20T16:48:23 < jbo> is Steffanx away?
2026-07-20T16:51:48 < Steffanx> We will never know
2026-07-20T16:53:20 < tomeaton17> Has anyone done CAN DFU before
2026-07-20T16:54:11 < tomeaton17> Did you have any issues if you did, going to give it a try
2026-07-20T16:54:13 < jbo> well, I did do firmware update over CAN, but it wasn't using the DFU spec
2026-07-20T16:55:07 < tomeaton17> Yeah I don't really care about being spec compliant its not USB anyway
2026-07-20T16:57:47 < jbo> my answer is: had zero issues
2026-07-20T16:58:40 < tomeaton17> Lovely 
2026-07-20T16:58:49 < tomeaton17> Did you use STM32 bootloader or something else
2026-07-20T16:59:24 < jbo> custom bootloader
2026-07-20T17:01:33 < catphish> zyp: is there a difference between a CPLD and a nonvolatile FPGA? I assumed CPLD was just a primative FPGA
2026-07-20T17:01:39 < zyp> tomeaton17, compliant with what spec?
2026-07-20T17:02:38 < zyp> catphish, they're fundamentally different technologies/architectures, but in recent years, vendors have started using the CPLD term for nonvolatile FPGAs
2026-07-20T17:04:11 < catphish> zyp: that makes sense, but is there any practical reason why an FPGA wouldn't always be better?
2026-07-20T17:05:34 < tomeaton17> zyp: DFU
2026-07-20T17:06:30 < catphish> right, better get on and finish my FPGA board
2026-07-20T17:06:37 < catphish> so much distractions, it's taking forever
2026-07-20T17:09:13 < zyp> catphish, I think maybe CPLDs may have less routing latency, but I guess modern FPGAs just makes up for that by being faster overall
2026-07-20T17:10:13 < zyp> tomeaton17, given that DFU is a USB spec, it doesn't really apply or even translate well to CAN
2026-07-20T17:17:13 < qyx> tomeaton17: I did a generic CAN file transfer too + firmware update
2026-07-20T17:18:36 < tomeaton17> zyp: I am aware, it is not my intention, I meant the concept of firmware upgrade rather than the spec
2026-07-20T17:19:44 < tomeaton17> I might give openblt a try
2026-07-20T17:21:32 < qyx> imagine running dokuwiki in 2026
2026-07-20T17:21:41 < qyx> it is already 20 years old
2026-07-20T17:22:44 < qyx> the host tool is written in objectpascal/lazarus? really?
2026-07-20T17:24:16 < qyx> also lol https://www.feaser.com/openblt/doku.php?id=manual:security
2026-07-20T17:24:18 < zyp> I've written a number of bootloader implementations, they all tend to follow a similar pattern
2026-07-20T17:26:04 < zyp> first of all, think protocol layers, you want to have a command layer, your CAN or whatever is the command transport
2026-07-20T17:26:43 < zyp> if you already have some command infrastructure in your application, it's probably beneficial to be compatible with it
2026-07-20T17:26:57 < tomeaton17> PHP powered is definitely something to be proud of
2026-07-20T17:27:14 < zyp> once that's taken care of, the rest is just defining the bootloader commands
2026-07-20T17:27:56 < zyp> for the actual firmware transfer, I usually use a set of three commands; init, write chunk, finalize
2026-07-20T17:30:09 < zyp> init prepares the state machine, unlocks flash, etc…, write chunk accepts chunks in order, finalize relocks flash and returns ok if everything went well, any error at any step in the sequence locks it out until you reinit
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2026-07-20T17:32:10 < zyp> then you probably want one or more status/info commands that tells you what version it has, what mode it's in (if you have a separate bootloader mode), etc…
2026-07-20T17:32:49 < zyp> and then you want a reset command for switching between modes and booting into the new firmware
2026-07-20T17:33:36 < zyp> if you're doing a multi-slot thing with rollbacks, you also want a commit command
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2026-07-20T17:46:51 < tomeaton17> Thanks for the info, doesn't sound too bad. I will give it a try once the boards actually arrive. Eurocircuits really is quite expensive
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2026-07-20T18:06:08 < catphish> i decided to add USB C on my generic FPGA board, and now i hate you all
2026-07-20T18:06:20 < catphish> so many pins
2026-07-20T18:06:41 < catphish> so many differential pairs
2026-07-20T18:06:58 < catphish> and rotational symmetry is not symmetry at all
2026-07-20T18:07:39 < qyx> you will be ok
2026-07-20T18:08:19 < catphish> i'm sure i'll get there, i'm just perpetually hot and tired at the moment
2026-07-20T18:08:54 < catphish> this toy arrived for me in the post this morning, haven't tried it yet https://quantasylum.com/products/qa403-audio-analyzer
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2026-07-20T18:16:38 < zyp> catphish, I would advise not using a socket that brings out the differential pairs if you're not using the differential pairs
2026-07-20T18:16:59 < zyp> oh, FPGA board will have a FX5, right?
2026-07-20T18:17:11 < zyp> disregard then :)
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2026-07-20T18:29:33 < catphish> zyp: yeah this is for the FX5
2026-07-20T18:30:20 < catphish> the STM32 board is sticking to USB B, that's ordered now so i get to work on the FX5 board for a while
2026-07-20T18:30:39 < jbo> USB B?
2026-07-20T18:30:42 < jbo> USB B????
2026-07-20T18:31:22 < jbo> chunky, I like it
2026-07-20T18:41:13 < catphish> lol JLCPCB accidentally sent me someone else's design to approve
2026-07-20T18:41:50 < catphish> some other customer has a nice neat board
2026-07-20T18:43:13 < tomeaton17> classic chinese IP handling
2026-07-20T18:59:55 < qyx> just approve it
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--- Day changed ti heinä 21 2026
2026-07-21T00:36:31 < catphish> FX5 slow progress https://i.ibb.co/mryrvjzT/usb-base.png
2026-07-21T00:38:24 < jbo> inverted silkscreen always gets me hard
2026-07-21T00:38:29 < jbo> (and I don't mean that in a weird way)
2026-07-21T00:39:01 < qyx> nah I hate that too
2026-07-21T00:39:17 < qyx> but I don't do art
2026-07-21T00:39:38 < catphish> lol
2026-07-21T00:40:34 < catphish> https://i.ibb.co/5WdXWdSH/usb-base-rear.png
2026-07-21T00:41:08 < catphish> honestly i didn't have the energy for any serious design so i just started drawing pointless sidkscreen
2026-07-21T00:41:40 < qyx> re usb connectors, i like USB4920, but that's usb2.0 only
2026-07-21T00:42:02 < qyx> also vertical molex, it is THT too
2026-07-21T00:42:18 < qyx> I mean side-looking vertical
2026-07-21T00:43:18 < catphish> i think i like the USB port i ended up with, it's a amphenol one, some pins SMD some through hole, should be quite well anchored
2026-07-21T00:44:26 < catphish> i still have a few bits to do, power supply layouts, crystal for SI5340, passives, and parhaps most tricky of all, choose a connector for the downstream port
2026-07-21T00:48:15 < jbo> I just generally don't do USB, that's how I roll
2026-07-21T00:48:27 < jbo> although I have to say it's nice when it just works
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2026-07-21T00:59:52 < catphish> so far i've never known it not "just work"
2026-07-21T01:02:36 < jbo> must be nice
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2026-07-21T01:27:25 < zyp> catphish, I don't like the half smt, half pth one, last I used it I found it annoying to route
2026-07-21T01:28:18 < catphish> zyp: interesting, it seemed easier to route for me as it basically gives you free vias which you need anyway for the inner pins
2026-07-21T01:33:06 < zyp> the problem is that they're not free, they're extra expensive
2026-07-21T01:37:09 < zyp> the CC/SBU pads gets trapped behind the other pads and there's not enough clearance to route between them, so you need to go around
2026-07-21T01:37:19 < catphish> zyp: i've actually just noticed CC2 is trapped
2026-07-21T01:37:23 < catphish> that's a terrible design
2026-07-21T01:38:34 < zyp> regular vias are much smaller, and you can stagger them whichever way suits your routing better
2026-07-21T01:39:18 < zyp> so IME SMT connectors are always easier to route than the equivalent PTH alternative
2026-07-21T01:39:54 < zyp> especially nowadays when VIP is an accessible option
2026-07-21T01:40:27 < catphish> https://i.ibb.co/d9SjNtD/Screenshot-20260720-233929.png
2026-07-21T01:40:45 < catphish> i might try the SMT instead, but this isn't terrible
2026-07-21T01:43:16 < catphish> it needs more work anyway, no ESD protection there yet
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2026-07-21T12:47:15 < machinehum> https://i.ibb.co/hx4xFnQD/eth.png
2026-07-21T12:47:43 < machinehum> I think it's not possible to make it better
2026-07-21T12:47:55 < machinehum> But it looks horrible
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2026-07-21T13:45:03 < catphish> machinehum: at that point i'd sseriously consider rearranging the baord to rotate the connector 180 degrees
2026-07-21T13:46:32 < catphish> is that 100M ethernet?
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2026-07-21T15:12:18 < zyp> machinehum, you can probably polarity swap it
2026-07-21T15:12:43 < zyp> as well as swap tx/rx
2026-07-21T15:13:02 < zyp> as long as the phy is somewhat decent
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2026-07-21T15:37:14 < catphish> if this is Ethernet thwn "somewhat decent" explitily means auto MDI/MDI-X for swapping TX and RX. Not sure about reversing the polarity though
2026-07-21T16:09:28 < machinehum> It's 100M yeah
2026-07-21T16:09:51 < machinehum> Let me take a look, it's a rockchip part so I doubt the phy is somewhat decent
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2026-07-21T20:35:15 < catphish> grr, got burgled today
2026-07-21T20:44:32 < specing> how?
2026-07-21T20:44:35 < qyx> what?
2026-07-21T20:44:50 < qyx> are all esp32 okay?
2026-07-21T20:48:53 < catphish> someone ripped my garage door open, stole some tools and my motorbike keys, luckily not the bike, which i've now had to take elsewhere
2026-07-21T20:51:26 < specing> lol stole keys but not bike
2026-07-21T21:01:24 < qyx> no cameras in cathome?
2026-07-21T21:30:23 < catphish> new home, cameras not installed yet
2026-07-21T21:37:59 < specing> no cats installed yet?
2026-07-21T21:38:52 < specing> I've read that cat bites/scratches can really infect, so having a cat trained to scratch the heck out of an invader might not be a bad idea
2026-07-21T21:42:25 < qyx> I guess home cats don't usually have rabies or similar interesting giveaways
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2026-07-21T22:06:59 < specing> qyx: nasty bacteria, though?
2026-07-21T22:59:25 < qyx> nah just some little monsters
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2026-07-22T11:10:54 < mawk> specing yes
2026-07-22T11:11:06 < mawk> cat bite or scratches can degenerate quickly to something bad
2026-07-22T11:17:28 < fantanYl> windows HLK might be single most fucked-up software I've been working so far
2026-07-22T11:17:40 < fantanYl> I broke it just by adding permission
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2026-07-22T12:47:23 < nohit> what would be a good, cheaper, available replacement for ft231x ?
2026-07-22T12:56:42 < infisa> Isn't FT231 is a good cheaper available FT232?
2026-07-22T12:58:45 < nohit> non of those ftdi chips are available
2026-07-22T12:58:53 < nohit> and they are expensive
2026-07-22T12:59:22 < nohit> has anyone used this ? https://www.mouser.fi/en/ProductDetail/Silicon-Labs/CP2102N-A02-GQFN20R?qs=u16ybLDytRbf2uwPkMBdUg%3D%3D
2026-07-22T12:59:48 < nohit> does it required driver installation or does it work out of the box like with ftdi chips ?
2026-07-22T13:02:46 < infisa> I have. It requires a driver.
2026-07-22T13:03:47 < infisa> WCH has a new chip that doesn't require a driver. I don't remember the part number.
2026-07-22T13:04:10 < infisa> Oh did you mean to ask if driver installation is automatic? It is.
2026-07-22T13:05:55 < infisa> Actually driverless chips - CH9102
2026-07-22T13:08:06 < nohit> alright, thanks
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2026-07-22T18:14:31 < Laurenceb_> supp
2026-07-22T18:14:35 < Laurenceb_> any ngspice users?
2026-07-22T18:18:15 < Laurenceb_> I'm trying to alter component values in a script, but no luck so far
2026-07-22T18:18:19 < Laurenceb_> alter has no effect
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2026-07-22T20:02:01 < Steffanx> Bye.
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2026-07-22T21:15:01 < catphish> importing things and dealing with the tax is exhausting
2026-07-22T21:15:11 < catphish> couriers seem intent on not making it simple
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2026-07-23T16:00:12 < catphish> standard mezanine connector might be a bit big for this board https://i.ibb.co/gFPCsQqF/mez.png
2026-07-23T16:03:09 < catphish> perhaps i can do something a bit simpler
2026-07-23T16:07:57 < catphish> FPC might be nice for this actually
2026-07-23T16:08:03 < qyx> maybe used a little bit smaller standard one
2026-07-23T16:11:53 < catphish> molex have a pretty decent selection actually
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2026-07-23T16:25:27 < catphish> it needs about 60 pins + grounds, at approx 0.4mm pitch
2026-07-23T16:25:42 < qyx> I am usually using gct ones
2026-07-23T16:26:05 < qyx> at 0.5 or 1.0 mm
2026-07-23T16:27:29 < catphish> gct don't list anything less than 0.8mm :(
2026-07-23T16:28:01 < catphish> unless you mean FPC
2026-07-23T16:28:52 < qyx> flex jumper cables, ffc is it?
2026-07-23T16:29:01 < qyx> connectors from TE and Molex
2026-07-23T16:29:56 < qyx> for mezzaninr I am using pin headers :p
2026-07-23T16:30:22 < catphish> the thing that put me off flat cables was they're only one sided, which halves the density
2026-07-23T16:30:57 < catphish> yeah, i'm considering just a simple grid of pin headers
2026-07-23T16:32:54 < catphish> but a need a lot of them :)
2026-07-23T16:40:12 < c10ud> try molex slimstack
2026-07-23T16:41:08 < c10ud> they look similar to some connector i've seen for mezzanines in the past 
2026-07-23T16:45:00 < c10ud> or xmc mezzanine card connectors (not sure on the mfr)
2026-07-23T16:45:25 < jbo> catphish, df40 can be nice too
2026-07-23T16:45:45 < catphish> c10ud: i actually already did a design with slimstack, that might work :)
2026-07-23T16:46:10 < catphish> though i'm now thinking maybe one of these: https://gct.co/connector/bb080 at 50x2 pins
2026-07-23T16:46:26 < jbo> why would you do that?
2026-07-23T16:46:40 < catphish> why would i do what?
2026-07-23T16:46:48 < jbo> the header you just posted
2026-07-23T16:46:49 < c10ud> seems difficult to align mechanically while it may cost less
2026-07-23T16:46:50 < jbo> over a proper connector
2026-07-23T16:46:59 < c10ud> https://www.digikey.it/it/articles/mezalok-connectors-high-reliability-xmc-mezzanine-connector
2026-07-23T16:47:00 < jbo> and easy to bend pins
2026-07-23T16:47:09 < catphish> i'd think a simple row of pins would be easy to align
2026-07-23T16:47:28 < jbo> you said 60 pins + grounds, right?
2026-07-23T16:47:46 < catphish> yeah, if i go G-S-S-G then that's 100 total
2026-07-23T16:47:56 < jbo> yeah that doesn't sound like a pin-header situation :D
2026-07-23T16:48:19 < jbo> df-40 has a 100 and 120pin model
2026-07-23T16:48:26 < catphish> it's actually a much simpler problem with 100 pins rather than 120 i think
2026-07-23T16:50:20 < c10ud> wow mezaloks are eye watering, probably better to stick to fpc
2026-07-23T16:51:32 < c10ud> like the one suggested by jbo
2026-07-23T16:54:04 < catphish> df-40 is the kind of thing i was looking for
2026-07-23T16:57:26 < catphish> this is probably the best match https://www.molex.com/en-us/products/part-detail/465573245
2026-07-23T16:58:52 < catphish> 4 rows, 100 or 120 pins, nice chonky pitch
2026-07-23T17:03:49 < catphish> chinese option: https://jlcpcb.com/partdetail/LXWCONN-LB992_F100PB0R/C52269355
2026-07-23T17:03:49 < catphish> https://jlcpcb.com/partdetail/LXWCONN-LB946_F100SBOR/C52269326
2026-07-23T17:03:53 < catphish> that seems pretty sane
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2026-07-23T17:37:04 < catphish> ah, the Samtec / Molex SEARAY/SEAM/SEAF are almost definitely what i want
2026-07-23T17:37:06 < catphish> thanks :)
2026-07-23T17:37:44 < catphish> just not the huge connector that's standard for FPGA mezanine
2026-07-23T17:37:47 < jbo> :)
2026-07-23T17:39:10 < catphish> they do them in 4 rows x 30pins, 1.27mm pitch which is the ideal size
2026-07-23T17:40:42 < catphish> i just need to deal with the hassle of building it in kicad
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2026-07-23T21:37:39 < catphish> just one teensy problem - the Samtec / Molex are *100* times the price of pin headers :)
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2026-07-23T21:40:40 < catphish> who knew it was so hard to connect a PCB to another PCB
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2026-07-23T21:46:04 < mawk> use BLE
2026-07-23T21:46:05 < mawk> easy
2026-07-23T21:46:46 < mawk> or NFC if you need energy harvesting 
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2026-07-24T00:24:06 < machinehum> https://i.ibb.co/Q3tqrTYZ/pik.png
2026-07-24T00:24:18 < machinehum> Coming along
2026-07-24T00:46:35 < jbo> machinehum
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2026-07-24T07:41:21 < catphish> machinehum: what does it do?
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2026-07-24T10:27:14 < nohit> i have started using this for FW https://www.bavaga.com/blog/2025/01/27/my-ultimate-conventional-commit-types-cheatsheet/
2026-07-24T10:27:25 < nohit> would it make sense to use this also for HW ?
2026-07-24T10:27:33 < nohit> with some adjustments 
2026-07-24T10:28:37 < nohit> feat(mcu): add status LED
2026-07-24T10:28:37 < nohit> fix(audio): correct TRRS connector wiring
2026-07-24T10:28:37 < nohit> chore(kicad): migrate project to KiCad 10
2026-07-24T10:28:40 < nohit> something like that
2026-07-24T10:36:24 < catphish> nohit: it makes sense to me when making releases with version numbers (the numbering can match the types of change) / automating pubic changelogs. if your hardware projects have either then it might make sense
2026-07-24T10:37:16 < catphish> i use them at work because we have automatically generated releases with version numbers and documentation. outside of that, i wouldn't bother
2026-07-24T10:46:54 < fantanYl> I use something very similar for SW on every project. Basically the one of rules for commit messages is: Write it so that release notes can be automatically generated out of it.
2026-07-24T11:12:55 -!- mawk [~mawk@wireguard/contributor/mawk] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
2026-07-24T11:19:21 < nohit> yep
2026-07-24T11:21:33 < qyx> I am using semver for hardware and CC for software only, idk if suitable for hardware
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2026-07-24T11:23:26 < machinehum> catphish: It's a stereo camera board with compute
2026-07-24T11:23:37 < machinehum> jbo
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2026-07-24T11:40:03 < Steffanx> Shhh, jbo is asleep. Don't wake him
2026-07-24T11:40:12 < Steffanx> Only jpa- gets to do that
2026-07-24T11:49:53 < machinehum> lol
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2026-07-24T12:48:03 < mawk> catphish: I want automatic pubic changelogs too
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2026-07-24T16:36:22 < catphish> machinehum: nice
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2026-07-24T19:31:50 < catphish> jesus, i've spent the better part of another day struggling with board-to-board connectors, they're either insanely expensive, or huge, i nearly settled on just using a 1.27mm pin header, but those have their own problems
2026-07-24T19:35:14 < catphish> okay, i'm probably just fussy, they're either too big, or too delicate, or too expensive, or too obscure - i'll settle for something soon i'm sure :)
2026-07-24T19:35:39 < mercenary> zebra-strip?
2026-07-24T19:47:49 < qyx> harting har-flex?
2026-07-24T20:17:14 < catphish> qyx: that's in the right ballpark. at 1.27mm i'd ideally want 4 rows (or 2 connectors with 2 rows), i also ideally want something i can get JLCPCB to assemble
2026-07-24T20:17:14 < catphish> what i'm currently considering are these - the only downside really is the obscure manufactuer: https://jlcpcb.com/partdetail/LXWCONN-LB210_G80PB1R/C53108787
2026-07-24T20:17:14 < catphish> not sure if they're a clone of something else
2026-07-24T20:20:54 < catphish> and looking for similar from recognised manufacturers, it comes back to DF40
2026-07-24T20:24:05 < catphish> yep hirose have a decent selection that's not abrudly expensive
2026-07-24T20:36:53 < catphish> this is the "dev kit" way: https://i.ibb.co/WNMg8jbP/usb-base.png - might work
2026-07-24T20:45:06 < catphish> this is the layout i think i actually want: https://i.ibb.co/m5JLM85t/usb-base.png
2026-07-24T20:45:06 < catphish> but connectors are giving me grief, the 1.27mm pin headers almost work, but if i go through hole the routing is impossible and if i go SMD i worry about ripping the pins off
2026-07-24T20:53:19 < catphish> so, it's surface mount pin headers, or DF40 :)
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2026-07-24T21:41:06 < mawk> is it your hidden disk v2 machinehum ?
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2026-07-25T09:30:00 < nohit> anyone know a cheap chinese version of this at LCSC ? https://jlcpcb.com/partdetail/Samtec-FTSH_105_01_L_DVK/C5155080
2026-07-25T09:30:29 < nohit> a keyed arm-10-swd connector
2026-07-25T09:33:05 < nohit> i can manage with this but a keyed one would be nicer https://jlcpcb.com/partdetail/hanxia-HX_PZ1_27_2x5PTP/C41376037
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2026-07-25T10:07:46 < zyp> how about fully shrouded ones? they have those
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2026-07-25T11:23:20 < nohit> zyp: it prevents usage with stdc-14 cable
2026-07-25T11:23:28 < nohit> the one above supports both
2026-07-25T11:27:11 < catphish> looks like other people use DF40 on FPGA dev boards, so i see no reason not to do the same, i think that's a win for my connector problem
2026-07-25T11:27:32 < catphish> nohit: i had a look and i could only see the samtec ones with the key
2026-07-25T11:30:26 < zyp> fuck stdc-14
2026-07-25T11:34:00 < nohit> catphish: alright thanks
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2026-07-25T12:52:42 < catphish> i have just one more question (for now)...
2026-07-25T12:52:42 < catphish> layout a: https://i.ibb.co/4nqz46MJ/layout-a.png
2026-07-25T12:52:42 < catphish> or layout b: https://i.ibb.co/zhB1dyQ1/layout-b.png
2026-07-25T12:52:42 < catphish> i feel like layout B is obviously more practical for stacking
2026-07-25T12:55:20 < zyp> what's the dimensions here? are you planning to have standoffs as well? have you put thought into which side should have the socket and which side should have the plug?
2026-07-25T13:02:58 < zyp> (the plug/socket differentiator is that the plug is fixed height, while the socket has options for different stacking height, so if you're making a generic module for multiple target applications, it makes sense to put the socket on the target board so it can choose whatever stacking size fits the mechanical design best)
2026-07-25T13:04:01 < zyp> and if you're doing solder in standoffs (which also come in different heights), they should also be soldered to the same board as the socket
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2026-07-25T13:14:15 < mercenary> b can get away with no standoffs for temporary things, a cannot. therefore, b. But a is easier if you decide to use FPC cables for something, therefore a.
2026-07-25T13:14:47 < mercenary> crystal ball will have to tell which requirement counts for more
2026-07-25T13:16:00 < catphish> zyp: those are questions i was just starting to consider. i think the plan is to put the connectors on the top of this board, and assume a fixed height, enough for passives on the back of the board above it, choosing connectors and standoffs accordingly
2026-07-25T13:16:28 < catphish> with that said, i could put the standoffs and socket on the other board, which would be more flexible
2026-07-25T13:17:01 < catphish> the dimansions of this board are currently 55x45
2026-07-25T13:18:29 < zyp> in that case I would also recommend keeping in mind the 6L special pricing at jlcpcb
2026-07-25T13:18:41 < zyp> goes up to 52x52
2026-07-25T13:19:01 < zyp> not necessarily for this board, but being able to do various one-offs for $2 is neat
2026-07-25T13:19:14 < zyp> I mean, $2 + assembly
2026-07-25T13:19:58 < catphish> i wonder if i should go 6 layer here. right now i'm only using 2 layers for signals, but it would be better if each of those 2 layers had its own ground plane, then power in the middle
2026-07-25T13:20:46 < catphish> i've just received a l
2026-07-25T13:21:05 < catphish> i've just received a large 4kg box from "trojan electronics", i don't recall expecting anything
2026-07-25T13:21:19 < catphish> i'm sure it'll be boring when i open it, but i'm intrigued :)
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2026-07-25T13:23:20 < catphish> it's... cat food :|
2026-07-25T13:23:56 < zyp> ha
2026-07-25T13:24:28 < catphish> that's the biggest disapointment of my life
2026-07-25T13:26:30 < specing> lol
2026-07-25T13:27:28 < catphish> yeah it'll work at 52x52 - i can give a bit more room between the connectors if i put them near the edge, and plenty of space for standoffs
2026-07-25T13:27:29 < catphish> https://i.ibb.co/Fk40XxfQ/52x52.png
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2026-07-25T16:21:09 < catphish> zyp: fun change - moving the connectors actually allows me to break out all 32 pins from each FPGA bank without any ridiculous routing, this is probably completely useless for my application, but seems worth doing anyway
2026-07-25T16:23:38 < catphish> i don't even know what the product is any more, i'm just making a dev board now :)
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2026-07-25T23:15:41 < machinehum> nooo mawk 
2026-07-25T23:15:52 < machinehum> Stereo camera
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2026-07-26T01:36:40 < mawk> a
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2026-07-26T18:18:20 < catphish> almost done - dropped the clock generator, decided that can be the responsibility of the daughterboards if they need better then the ECP5 can provide - only remaining issue is that i can't get DF40 tall enough to clear the USB port, so need to decide whether to put them underneath, or just cut out the daugherboards around the USB port, i think the latter would be neatest
2026-07-26T18:18:20 < catphish> i need to route the power supplies, the JTAG ports, and add some 3mm standoffs and then i think i'm done
2026-07-26T18:19:05 < catphish> work in progress https://i.ibb.co/N6NscGkH/usb-base.png
2026-07-26T18:23:24 < catphish> now it's done it looks kinda simple, but first time learning BGA escape routing and stacking connectors
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2026-07-26T21:05:14 < jpa-> catphish: maybe use a straddling usb connector?
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2026-07-26T23:54:28 < catphish> jpa-: that's a possibility, i'll see what's available
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2026-07-27T00:57:51 < catphish> jesus christ, i just pointed claude at an STM32cubeMX generated project, explined the basics of the product and what's connected where, and told it what i wanted the firmware to do. clearly that wasn't enough for it. it managed to find the kicad project and has decided to analyze the hardware in detail before making any decisions about the software.
2026-07-27T00:58:13 < catphish> it found the datasheets for the compinents and is reading those too
2026-07-27T01:01:29 < catphish> "Now I have everything I need. Let me write the application code." lol
2026-07-27T01:01:45 < qyx> yes and depending on the input, it spits the output all at once
2026-07-27T01:01:52 < qyx> ou can steer it later
2026-07-27T01:02:23 < qyx> also, prividing pdf datasheets locally makes things better
2026-07-27T01:02:51 < qyx> because the fetch thing reads web datasheets differently and there are manufacturers blocking AI agents
2026-07-27T01:03:23 < qyx> it concludes after a while it has to use wget with a spoofed user-agent and then uses pdf-to-txt, but that's not the optimal path
2026-07-27T01:05:02 < qyx> also, it helps *much* doing basic instructions for a project in a claude.md file
2026-07-27T01:05:11 < catphish> qyx: yeah, i had all the datasheets in a directory with the kicad project because i'd preiously got it to review the schematic, it found all that and used it
2026-07-27T01:05:24 < qyx> like "build using scons"
2026-07-27T01:05:33 < qyx> "flash using openocd blah blah"
2026-07-27T01:05:40 < qyx> "do not flash unless asked to"
2026-07-27T01:05:52 < qyx> "debug using gdb-multiarch, openocd runs at localhost:3333"
2026-07-27T01:05:53 < qyx> etc.
2026-07-27T01:06:07 < qyx> or "build configuration uses kconfig"
2026-07-27T01:06:22 < catphish> i'm getting into the habit of just providing as much data upfront as possible, but i had conpletely underestimated the usefulness of the hardware design when writing the firmware - it decided to do that on its own
2026-07-27T01:06:26 < qyx> you save half your precious time, it doesn't need to guess things
2026-07-27T01:06:59 < qyx> also, provide paths with @
2026-07-27T01:07:19 < qyx> it then fetches things all at once
2026-07-27T01:07:21 < catphish> anyway, i gave it my F7 DAC and asked for a UAC2 firmware
2026-07-27T01:08:21 < qyx> for reviewing schematics, there is a skillset somewhere online, I came across it recently
2026-07-27T01:08:32 < qyx> but haven't tried it
2026-07-27T01:08:42 < qyx> how did it turn out?
2026-07-27T01:09:09 < catphish> it's still working on it, and i won't really know until the boards arrive
2026-07-27T01:09:53 < catphish> it did great with the hardware review though, mostly using a kicad generated netlist, and PDF datasheets, it understood every detail
2026-07-27T01:10:35 < qyx> I may try it for the board I am now doing
2026-07-27T01:11:46 < catphish> i use claude in vscode so it can easily access files. i found the best thing was to make sure all the PDFs are in the project like you said, and most importantly, that there is an up-to-date netlist file, that's its preferred view of the project
2026-07-27T01:12:31 < catphish> it can also check the layout in kicad_pcb format, it's slightly more prone to mistakes in that mode, but still useful
2026-07-27T01:13:13 < catphish> I set he effort to "high" - which isn't a paerticularly high setting
2026-07-27T01:13:55 < qyx> yeah there are higher highs
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2026-07-27T03:06:53 < qyx> TIL kicad-cli
2026-07-27T03:07:50 < qyx> I am now considering making a simple Makefile to run erc & drc & get the current git version, create a nice filename base, export sch to pdf, layers to pdf, gerbers, pos/bom, etc.
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2026-07-27T03:22:05 < qyx> zomg the report
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2026-07-27T03:29:35 < qyx> ok it is actually pretty detailed and correct, it spotted many things which I need to fix tomorrow
2026-07-27T03:37:49 < catphish> qyx: claude report on the netlist?
2026-07-27T03:38:04 < catphish> mine did an excellent job
2026-07-27T03:40:58 < qyx> yes
2026-07-27T03:42:33 < catphish> cool
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2026-07-27T12:36:31 < qyx> Your package arrived at our facility after the courier vans left for delivery. We'll deliver it at the next available time.
2026-07-27T12:36:34 < qyx> NOO
2026-07-27T12:39:19 < zyp> aww
2026-07-27T12:40:03 < zyp> I've went to DHL to pick up stuff myself a couple of times when that's happened
2026-07-27T12:40:08 < tomeaton17> What is going on with this EU 3 euro tarrif? Is it really that bad on the main distributors?
2026-07-27T12:40:28 < tomeaton17> s/tarrif/tariff
2026-07-27T12:41:24 < zyp> except last time I did, my package got loaded on a van while I was driving to DHL :p
2026-07-27T12:42:23 < specing> tomeaton17: it's to protect EU importers of chinese goods
2026-07-27T12:43:07 < DrZak> and stem the flow of garbage
2026-07-27T12:43:09 < qyx> tomeaton17: nothing happens for normal workflows and DDP apparently
2026-07-27T12:44:00 < qyx> and i am not ordering cloned JST connectors from chink ebays, so idk
2026-07-27T12:44:12 < qyx> lolwut DrZak 
2026-07-27T12:44:15 < specing> DrZak: The Garbage Must Flow (through EU based importers)
2026-07-27T12:46:18 < tomeaton17> I saw on reddit Mouser are implementing it
2026-07-27T12:47:49 < tomeaton17> Seems like another win for Brexit
2026-07-27T12:51:29 < qyx> hardly
2026-07-27T12:51:41 < tomeaton17> Oh no I got it wrong they are not implementing at origin
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2026-07-27T13:21:08 < jpa-> but does it really apply 3 eur per each component type?
2026-07-27T13:21:13 < jpa-> or 3 eur per order?
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2026-07-27T13:45:08 < qyx> the key thing is it doesn't apply for parcels with >150e value, for them normal customs applies
2026-07-27T13:45:36 < qyx> which can result in 0e tax
2026-07-27T13:45:43 < tomeaton17> not great for the hobbyists
2026-07-27T13:47:58 < qyx> a hobbyist can buy low valued things in normal local stores
2026-07-27T13:48:08 < qyx> there are many
2026-07-27T13:54:37 < DrZak> Brexit - are you sure you want to delete 1 GB?
2026-07-27T13:56:08 < DrZak> Fortunately the bad days are over
2026-07-27T13:56:14 < DrZak> Now it's time for even worse days
2026-07-27T14:06:19 < fantanYl> normal local stores mostly don't hold anything interesting in stock, except the largest
2026-07-27T14:06:28 < fantanYl> but there's always dunkel
2026-07-27T14:13:47 < specing> qyx: local stores? Lol
2026-07-27T14:14:19 < specing> there's a small conrad 15km away, but it only carries maybe 0.0001% of parts available from China.
2026-07-27T14:40:34 < qyx> I don't think I am running out of innovative parts and I haven't ordered low valued stuff from china at least for the past 10 years
2026-07-27T14:42:12 < qyx> anyway, this discussion has no sense because the goal of this is clear, an all the make:r's (arguments) are clear too
2026-07-27T14:42:19 < qyx> *and
2026-07-27T14:43:45 < qyx> because make:r needs to order his vaping battery for $1.50 from a chink store and set the plane on fire because the battery was badly packaged and marked as christmas socks, instead of buying it for 2.50€ from nkon or 4€ from tme or any other EU store
2026-07-27T14:44:58 < qyx> because deutschlanders or brits are making only 5000€ monthly
2026-07-27T15:04:37 < jpa-> even on hobby level, i'd find it hard to live without digikey & mouser
2026-07-27T15:04:44 < jpa-> tme.eu is ok, but lacks a lot of stuff
2026-07-27T15:05:28 < jpa-> not sure if digikey & mouser might somehow avoid the import scheme by having intermediate storage or repacking? AFAIK even china sellers can avoid it as long as they have EU warehouse
2026-07-27T15:06:24 < zyp> I'd use TME more if they'd send DDP
2026-07-27T15:07:04 < jpa-> well that's on you for not joining EU
2026-07-27T15:07:15 < jpa-> vote for nowenter
2026-07-27T15:07:25 < jpa-> *norwenter
2026-07-27T15:07:49 < zyp> I were six last time we voted on that :p
2026-07-27T15:10:29 < qyx> so, I have a keypad, it has 4 pins, 3V3, GND, SDA, SCL
2026-07-27T15:10:40 < qyx> I want to wake my device up
2026-07-27T15:10:48 < qyx> yes, I forgot INT
2026-07-27T15:11:09 < jpa-> do the usual "pulse on SCL" for wakeup?
2026-07-27T15:11:12 < zyp> I've heard i3c has inband interrupts
2026-07-27T15:11:39 < qyx> jpa-: but what if the pulse occurs during normal comms later?
2026-07-27T15:11:49 < qyx> I need a way to mask that
2026-07-27T15:12:10 < jpa-> you can e.g. have the pulse be through a resistor that is strong enough to override weak pull-up, but the master can use SCL in push-pull mode during transfers
2026-07-27T15:12:46 < qyx> good idea, no clock stretching though
2026-07-27T15:13:31 < jpa-> clock stretching is for silly people anyway, but if you really want that, you can put normal 2.2k pull-up on a GPIO and use weaker pull-up and weak IRQ pull-down during idle times
2026-07-27T15:13:49 < qyx> now accepting bets if my SCL is on a standby-wakeup-capable pin
2026-07-27T15:13:59 < qyx> although on U5 even any of the stop modes is enough
2026-07-27T15:14:32 < zyp> is this a shared i2c bus?
2026-07-27T15:14:49 < zyp> keypad is target, not initiator?
2026-07-27T15:15:28 < zyp> mcu on both sides, or fixed function target?
2026-07-27T15:16:14 < qyx> shared, fixed target
2026-07-27T15:16:21 < qyx> no mcu on the keypad
2026-07-27T15:16:37 < qyx> well, I can still wake up periodically and poke the keypad
2026-07-27T15:16:39 < qyx> but that's lame
2026-07-27T15:17:25 < qyx> I could also use some kind of a hw watchdog ic to toggle SCL only on a very-long press
2026-07-27T15:17:28 < jpa-> alternatively if the host can disable SDA pull-up, you could just have the keypad have weak resistor to it from the interrupt pin
2026-07-27T15:17:50 < jpa-> like 100k or something that has no effect as soon as the normal SDA pull-up is active
2026-07-27T15:20:45 < qyx> also • 19.5 μA/MHz Run mode @ 3.3 V
2026-07-27T15:21:00 < qyx> seems like I can just keep it running
2026-07-27T15:23:02 < zyp> did anyone use i3c yet?
2026-07-27T15:25:35 < qyx> no
2026-07-27T15:47:19 < qyx> hm even U5 has no I3C
2026-07-27T15:58:55 < zyp> it doesn't? I thought even older parts than U5 did
2026-07-27T15:59:42 < zyp> might be moot, looks like there's no i3c gpio expanders yet (or whatever else you're using for keypad)
2026-07-27T16:01:06 < qyx> not many peripherals in general
2026-07-27T16:03:10 < zyp> looks like H5, U3, C5 and N6 has I3C support so far
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2026-07-28T11:20:49 < qyx> speaking of U3, whats the difference between U5 and U3 besides the core, I couldn't see any
2026-07-28T11:21:50 < qyx> U3 looks a bit redundand to me exactly like C1, business-wise
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2026-07-28T12:37:27 < Steffanx> Now you're all wrong there. This is THE  "Best-in-class low-power consumption and high energy efficiency" 
2026-07-28T12:39:23 < qyx> but so was U5, L0, L5, L4, L1..
2026-07-28T12:54:26 < fantanYl> so was PIC8
2026-07-28T12:54:41 < fantanYl> it still is!
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2026-07-28T13:24:46 < Steffanx> Does not even run creepyps
2026-07-28T13:24:50 < Steffanx> os
2026-07-28T13:25:00 < Steffanx> So is it even relevant?
2026-07-28T13:25:47 < zyp> qyx, as mentioned above, U3 has I3C :p
2026-07-28T13:26:31 < qyx> who uses i3c
2026-07-28T13:29:52 < Steffanx> Claude will make you
2026-07-28T13:30:00 < Steffanx> Use ir
2026-07-28T13:30:12 < Steffanx> damn hotdog fingers
2026-07-28T13:41:48 < qyx> dpkg-reconfigure locales
2026-07-28T13:42:19 < qyx> nah copypasting bs
2026-07-28T13:43:42 < qyx> 150 kB/s 1min 38s
2026-07-28T13:44:07 < qyx> I hope, one day, a working internet connection will be mandated by law
2026-07-28T13:45:17 < fantanYl> internet access already is a human right. you should ask to get access to your human rights!
2026-07-28T13:48:57 < qyx> is it normal to pay for human rights?
2026-07-28T13:49:11 < qyx> Fetched 16.2 MB in 2min 30s (109 kB/s)                                                                                                                                                                                                      
2026-07-28T13:49:15 < qyx> oh i am getting somewhere!
2026-07-28T13:54:04 < specing> That looks like a working connection
2026-07-28T14:39:43 < mawk> <qyx> but so was U5, L0, L5, L4, L1..
2026-07-28T14:39:47 < mawk> yes that's progress
2026-07-28T14:40:25 < mawk> I'm the last analog programmer at my work
2026-07-28T14:40:32 < mawk> all the others drank the AI koolaid
2026-07-28T14:44:57 < qyx> that's sad
2026-07-28T14:45:08 < qyx> imagine being like on drugs
2026-07-28T14:45:24 < qyx> you could be more productive
2026-07-28T14:46:35 < DrZak> analog programmer was a guy who manually flipped registers
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2026-07-28T15:29:02 < mawk> and liquefy my brain yes qyx 
2026-07-28T15:29:13 < mawk> I do things by hand
2026-07-28T15:29:19 < mawk> that's how I learned absolutely everything I know
2026-07-28T15:29:30 < mawk> if I delegate to a clanker I will be just another lambda developer
2026-07-28T15:30:11 < mawk> I'm not here to increase shareholder value, I'm here to do things I like
2026-07-28T15:30:15 < mawk> and I don't like talking to robots
2026-07-28T15:36:05 < mawk> I don't even like using IDEs, I usually just write code in sublimetext without any fancy autocompletion, I remember the functions and where there are, it's good for memory; using AI is the opposite of good for memory
2026-07-28T15:55:06 < qyx> I mean, I know what you are talking about
2026-07-28T15:55:24 < qyx> it is like owning a car to go hiking
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2026-07-28T17:13:36 < Steffanx> Uh what qyx?
2026-07-28T17:14:27 < jpa-> it's like putting on a swimsuit before drinking a cake
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2026-07-28T17:27:54 < qyx> Steffanx: well, you can hike Alps instead of local hills only
2026-07-28T17:28:48 < mawk> you can definitely drink a cake jpa- 
2026-07-28T17:28:51 < mawk> if you own a blender
2026-07-28T17:37:00 < jpa-> mawk: yeah but why the swimsuit???
2026-07-28T17:37:40 < mawk> in case you get wet
2026-07-28T17:37:54 < mawk> the blender might explode
2026-07-28T18:12:22 < Steffanx> Now are you just making things up mawkLLM
2026-07-28T18:13:37 < mercenary> one could say mawk is blending scenarios
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--- Day changed ke heinä 29 2026
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2026-07-29T00:21:08 < karlp> catphish: why lightspeed?
2026-07-29T00:29:32 < nomorekaki> hello nightcrew
2026-07-29T00:30:05 < catphish> karlp: where?
2026-07-29T00:30:09 < qyx> helokaki
2026-07-29T00:31:12 < catphish> karlp: oh, my website, that's the choice of my hosting provider, it does clever things with wordpress caching
2026-07-29T00:31:26 < catphish> (i don't use wordpress, but many people do!)
2026-07-29T00:33:17 < catphish> woo my DAC boards have landed in UK
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2026-07-29T14:15:54 < catphish> I've lost my ST-Link v2 :'(
2026-07-29T14:15:54 < catphish> I've had to open by 3-pack of little chinese STM32 programmers,
2026-07-29T14:33:46 < fantanYl> RP2040 + yapicoprobe works good enough. the only downside is that there is no convenient way how to break ARM SWD connector to standard pinheader of Pi Pico
2026-07-29T14:35:04 < Laurenceb_> lolllll
2026-07-29T14:35:13 < Laurenceb_> HS2 prototype just blew up
2026-07-29T14:35:21 < Laurenceb_> ukay achievements
2026-07-29T14:36:42 < fantanYl> what is HS2?
2026-07-29T14:36:43 < Laurenceb_> problem is they just turned up at my trollshed with the blown inverter, so now it is my jerb to save the yookay
2026-07-29T14:36:59 < Laurenceb_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Speed_2
2026-07-29T14:37:29 < Laurenceb_> someone in a forklift literally dumped it outside my door with no explanation lmao
2026-07-29T14:37:37 < Laurenceb_> the state of this
2026-07-29T14:37:52 < Laurenceb_> ancient 68000 based controller
2026-07-29T14:40:46 < Laurenceb_> looks like A-train kit with water cooling rather than air
2026-07-29T14:42:05 < Laurenceb_> perman00bs probably fitted incompatible control PCB, literally nobody knows wtf they are doing :S
2026-07-29T14:42:51 < Laurenceb_> now their prototype le awesome 300kph HS2 prototype is totally dead
2026-07-29T14:42:52 < fantanYl> UK railways were pure junk since like... the end of industrial revolution, wasn't it? That's basically the reason why Eurotunnel service ends in London.
2026-07-29T14:42:57 < Laurenceb_> yeah
2026-07-29T14:43:32 < Laurenceb_> how do they expect me to fix it, ancient 68000 source code will be on some win 98 PC in Japan
2026-07-29T14:43:58 < fantanYl> we are doing it like this for 15 years
2026-07-29T14:44:12 < Laurenceb_> apparently it self destructed and cooked all IGBTs as soon as they turned it on lol
2026-07-29T14:44:13 < fantanYl> und bis jetzt has es immer werkt
2026-07-29T14:47:01 < Laurenceb_> apparently Shinkansen is air cooled, but in europe the heatsink tends to clog up more with leaves and mold than in Japan, so they have swapped it to water cooled inverters
2026-07-29T14:48:20 < fantanYl> well, after all you have to dump the heat into air
2026-07-29T14:57:00 < catphish> Love me some new boards to play with! https://i.ibb.co/SwLYNw8j/PXL-20260729-111437769.jpg
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2026-07-29T15:47:48 < infisc> The third section is very sus.
2026-07-29T16:01:36 < Laurenceb_> nice board, interesting DCDC approach
2026-07-29T16:01:59 < Laurenceb_> https://nitter.poast.org/pic/orig/media%2FHOQKCrEXsAAJwQi.jpg
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2026-07-29T18:03:31 < fantanYl> well, someone just created whole WASM runtime environment on top of Zephyr just to avoid using MPU
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2026-07-29T20:29:23 < catphish> Laurenceb_: thanks, the DCDC is based on SN6505B driving 1MHz into some transformers, and then ultra low noise LT3045/LT3094 on the other side so the analog side is completely linear, and isolated from USB noise
2026-07-29T20:39:07 < catphish> infisa: lmao indeed
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2026-07-29T21:55:07 < catphish> outputs look nice and clean at 5kHz and 25kHz https://i.ibb.co/g2WLFxT/PXL-20260729-184859103.jpg
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2026-07-29T22:26:14 < jbo> nice chair
2026-07-29T22:28:29 < catphish> it certainly is. it matches the couch, comfiest thing ever
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2026-07-30T18:34:12 < catphish> this is a pleasing result: https://i.ibb.co/Z121M9Gb/PXL-20260730-152254043.jpg
2026-07-30T18:34:12 < catphish> 118dB SNR. 2nd harmonic at -93dB
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2026-07-30T19:13:37 < mawk> is it you singing?
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2026-07-30T19:58:27 < fantanYl> karlp: someone did to CMRX what I did to LOCM a while ago
2026-07-30T19:58:40 < fantanYl> I got PR with Make-based "alternate buildsystem"
2026-07-30T20:04:15 < Steffanx> Someone but you is using it???
2026-07-30T20:05:07 < mercenary> plain make? I approve of this product or service.
2026-07-30T20:17:33 < mawk> what about autotools mercenary 
2026-07-30T20:19:13 < mercenary> mawk: extremely debatable. good idea, lousy slow implementation. also, autotools 2.61 or incompatibly autotools 2.73 ? :p
2026-07-30T20:19:45 < mawk> I had to eat autotools for breakfast in school
2026-07-30T20:20:00 < mawk> two of my teachers were authors of autotools
2026-07-30T20:20:18 < mawk> you can see them if you do autoreconf --version and automake --version
2026-07-30T20:20:26 < mawk> Demaille and Duret-Lutz
2026-07-30T20:21:59 < mercenary> so you could have fixed it!
2026-07-30T20:22:21 < mawk> it's already perfect 
2026-07-30T20:24:23 < mercenary> I'd call it past perfect. That stage when featuritis becomes uncontrollable
2026-07-30T20:50:12 < qyx> featuritis sounds like an illness
2026-07-30T20:58:48 < mercenary> it is. the symptoms are long compile times, a bloated feeling, and occasional random crashes
2026-07-30T21:00:05 < fantanYl> Steffanx: surprisingly
2026-07-30T21:02:04 < fantanYl> mercenary: adaptabuild, whatever it is
2026-07-30T21:03:46 < mercenary> adaptabuild? never heard of it. can't be worse than meson/ant/gn/... (I hope)
2026-07-30T21:04:57 < fantanYl> it looks like flavored makefile
2026-07-30T21:05:23 < fantanYl> as I barely ever used make, I can't tell if it is actually different tool with similar syntax or just a bunch of macros
2026-07-30T21:09:27 < mercenary> quite cute, actually. sort of a BSD ports system, but for embedded, by the looks of it
2026-07-30T21:10:41 < fantanYl> well, at least a decade too late
2026-07-30T21:12:19 < mercenary> it is never too late to reduce complexity
2026-07-30T21:14:17 < fantanYl> only problem is that these days build system should ideally do more than just build binaries
2026-07-30T21:14:29 < fantanYl> then complexity explodes, if using make
2026-07-30T21:16:25 < mercenary> complexity explodes anyway (he says, after just having finished hunting down a CMakeList.txt two levels down in a project that wants to randomly download stuff from somewhere)
2026-07-30T21:17:42 < fantanYl> well, there are people who can make mess in any language
2026-07-30T21:18:18 < mercenary> Pet peeve: projects that download 'test data' on their own. Especially after what happened with zlib.
2026-07-30T21:18:19 < fantanYl> I've seen company treating CMake as yet another scripting language and dragging pieces of msys to do tasks which CMake can do on its own in a very nasty and fragile way
2026-07-30T21:19:58 < zyp> mercenary, you mean the liblzma backdoor?
2026-07-30T21:20:01 < fantanYl> well, supply chain attacks are nasty but no serious piece of software can reasonably carry all its belongings with it
2026-07-30T21:20:09 < mercenary> zyp: that
2026-07-30T21:20:21 < zyp> not related to zlib, but yeah
2026-07-30T21:20:39 < fantanYl> dumping binary shit into repository is always a stupid idea
2026-07-30T21:21:34 < mercenary> sometimes you have to. vendor blobs and all that.
2026-07-30T21:22:06 < fantanYl> yeah, at least in this case you can check hashes
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2026-07-31T10:56:50 < machinehum> Mean dealing with some customers...
2026-07-31T10:57:12 < machinehum> 99% are amazing, but the 1% ...
2026-07-31T10:58:01 < machinehum> I literally have had people with their thing broken and they're apologizing to me, like guys please, it's my fault
2026-07-31T10:58:14 < machinehum> I try to refund them, they won't let me
2026-07-31T10:58:31 < machinehum> I ship them a replacement part, they try to pay me
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2026-07-31T20:52:50 < catphish> i hate mechanical design. How do I mount an OLED display in the front of a 1U rackmount enclosure?
2026-07-31T20:53:35 < catphish> i guess i need a rectangular hole and some kind of bezel with a way to hold the screen behind
2026-07-31T20:56:15 < artok> depends on how much you have room in front of that rack panel
2026-07-31T20:57:56 < catphish> assuming it's unlimited, is there an easy option?
2026-07-31T20:58:22 < qyx> do you need it to be disassembled later? the front panel I mean
2026-07-31T20:58:33 < catphish> i don't think so
2026-07-31T20:58:45 < qyx> cnc mill the lcd outline from the back
2026-07-31T20:59:00 < qyx> put the oled/lcd in from the back of the front panel
2026-07-31T20:59:15 < qyx> glue with dwo drops from both sides
2026-07-31T20:59:30 < qyx> and solder the ffc from the bottom of the main pcb
2026-07-31T21:01:34 < catphish> if i use FFC then i can probably put a proper connector on the board in an appropriate place
2026-07-31T21:02:12 < catphish> currently the board has a PH2 SPI connector, which I suspect was a mistake, but that can be changed
2026-07-31T21:02:59 < qyx> oh yes
2026-07-31T21:03:11 < qyx> I am using solder type ffc
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2026-07-31T21:17:46 < catphish> I might go as basic as this: https://midasdisplays.com/shop/oled/oled-graphic/mcob100016av-wp/
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2026-07-31T21:21:28 < catphish> most are FFC, so maybe that's the better direction to go 
2026-07-31T21:22:24 < catphish> in which case, something like this: https://midasdisplays.com/shop/oled/oled-graphic/mcot256064aa-wm/
2026-07-31T21:23:45 < catphish> but i feel like i need to design a mount / bezel, none of them are designed for simple panel mounting without extra parts
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2026-07-31T21:48:23 < zyp> catphish, sounds like a simple job for a 3d printer
2026-07-31T21:53:26 < zyp> I would probably avoid having to make a cutout in the enclosure too, just figure out where you can route out the cable and mount the 3d printed box with the display over it
2026-07-31T21:57:30 < qyx> those displays I am using are 0.96" 128x64 px and small enclosure intolerance causes problems
2026-07-31T21:58:06 < zyp> the small oleds?
2026-07-31T21:58:20 < qyx> yeah
2026-07-31T21:58:33 < zyp> used those in a work project I did some months ago
2026-07-31T21:58:37 < qyx> but I considered doing small 90° holders too
2026-07-31T21:59:47 < zyp> https://photos.app.goo.gl/BCWdiXp7FPvtUNRz6
2026-07-31T22:00:36 < qyx> whats that
2026-07-31T22:04:14 < zyp> uh, not sure how to describe it without going into too much detail
2026-07-31T22:07:11 < zyp> it's a controller thing with a status display
2026-07-31T22:08:44 < zyp> it's a «smarter» replacement that goes into some existing product, so the form factor was already given
2026-07-31T22:09:24 < zyp> original design had two PCBs with headers between them, we opted to go for a rigidflex assembly that gets folded into place instead
2026-07-31T22:10:40 < zyp> so I made a 3d-printable bracket that the rigidflex folds around, with a pocket for a battery in between and pegs that protrudes through the top board to hold the display: https://bin.jvnv.net/file/5orlm.png https://bin.jvnv.net/file/1PSX6.png
2026-07-31T22:12:58 < zyp> I originally designed the bracket to be made with SLS nylon, and did some prototypes like that
2026-07-31T22:14:00 < qyx> looks complex
2026-07-31T22:15:05 < zyp> and then nobody remembered to order more brackets before I got a big box of assembled PCBs on my desk and the client going «we need these provisioned ASAP, we're already on our way to start installing them»
2026-07-31T22:15:51 < zyp> so I adjusted the design to be more FDM-friendly and ran 200 of them myself
2026-07-31T22:16:08 < qyx> I *hate* fdm
2026-07-31T22:16:28 < zyp> https://photos.app.goo.gl/KPv5y3zztDrLShEFA
2026-07-31T22:16:29 < qyx> thats arduino of 3d printing
2026-07-31T22:16:34 < zyp> it actually worked out really well
2026-07-31T22:16:54 < zyp> I ran eight of those plates or so
2026-07-31T22:17:02 < zyp> each of them took like 12 hours
2026-07-31T22:17:57 < qyx> thats 4 days, should be doable with jlc-dhl
2026-07-31T22:19:17 < zyp> client didn't wait for them all to be ready, I sent them the first 50 or so the day after
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2026-07-31T22:47:28 < Steffanx> Lol you qyx. Just lol you
2026-07-31T22:48:49 < qyx> wat
2026-07-31T22:49:12 < Steffanx> FDM the Arduino of 3d printing
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2026-07-31T23:54:36 < catphish> zyp: i could indeed just put a 3D printed box in the front with the display in it, and drill a small hole for the cable but that seems a bit ugly
2026-07-31T23:55:46 < catphish> might look nice if i print a large front bezel that covers the whole front panel
2026-07-31T23:56:07 < catphish> I think that's quite a common solution
2026-07-31T23:57:00 < catphish> i really hate mounting displays, i keep accidentally agreeing to add them to products
--- Log closed la elo 01 00:00:45 2026