--- Log opened Fri May 01 00:00:48 2026
2026-05-01T00:10:35 < specing> lol catphish 
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2026-05-01T00:21:46 < nomorekaki> yes night
2026-05-01T00:21:53 < nomorekaki> no?
2026-05-01T00:26:34 < zyp> hi nomorekaki 
2026-05-01T00:26:40 < zyp> how do you like my SMAs? https://photos.app.goo.gl/DQFLGMTrPUA51Aj17
2026-05-01T00:27:10 < nomorekaki> pcie?
2026-05-01T00:27:31 < nomorekaki> very nice
2026-05-01T00:28:14 < nomorekaki> I assume it's testing
2026-05-01T00:28:50 < zyp> the shit on the photo is just posing for the photo, but yeah
2026-05-01T00:29:15 < zyp> I made some adapters to help testing shit
2026-05-01T00:29:28 < zyp> this shit: https://github.com/zyp/katsuo-pcie
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2026-05-01T12:13:07 < machinehum> Has anyone sourced emmc before?
2026-05-01T12:13:35 < machinehum> reasonably priced emmc chips*
2026-05-01T12:13:59 < machinehum> Because 20 bucks for 4GB isn't going to work for me
2026-05-01T13:26:14 < jpa-> blame AI
2026-05-01T13:33:15 < machinehum> How did AI fuck up EMMC
2026-05-01T13:34:46 < jpa-> by causing a surge in SSD flash memory orders, so that there is less production capacity for emmc
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2026-05-01T18:59:18 < machinehum> https://usb-ids.gowdy.us/read/UD/0001
2026-05-01T19:26:27 < aandrew> emmc isn't tricky to use
2026-05-01T19:48:39 < ds2> I'll be convinced when they start selling eMMC in SOIC or DIP footprints ;)
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2026-05-01T20:48:29 < catphish> looks like i need to buy a USB ID soon, that's useful
2026-05-01T20:50:17 < zyp> hope you have $6k to spend on it :)
2026-05-01T20:51:12 < catphish> customer wants USB in their product, i told them it would add $6,000 to the price, they didn't blink :)
2026-05-01T20:51:37 < zyp> neat
2026-05-01T20:52:26 < zyp> I wish there were stuff like pid.codes for pci ids as well
2026-05-01T20:52:40 < catphish> stupidly, customer is $multinational who i can clearly see have their own USB ID already, but the person i'm working with can't find the person in their own company who is responsible for it, so they said just buy another one
2026-05-01T20:53:08 < zyp> pretty nice though
2026-05-01T20:53:26 < zyp> I need to get myself a client that'll sponsor me a PCI-SIG membership :)
2026-05-01T20:53:27 < catphish> i'll pass along the cost price, and then i have one for myself for next time :)
2026-05-01T20:53:59 < catphish> pid.codes is awesome, i used it for my open source drone project
2026-05-01T20:54:21 < catphish> there's also a company that sells grey market USB IDs for commercial stuff for about $20
2026-05-01T20:54:32 < catphish> but yay for having a genuine one
2026-05-01T20:54:43 < catphish> i don't know much about PCI IDs - same deal?
2026-05-01T20:54:47 < zyp> yeah, I also have a couple entries on pid.codes and a couple entries at the older openmoko registry
2026-05-01T20:55:17 < zyp> yeah, same 16-bit vendor id, 16-bit product id scheme
2026-05-01T20:55:18 < catphish> i had two at pid.codes but i deleted one of them because nobody ever actually used it :)
2026-05-01T20:55:44 < catphish> same commercial setup with a defacto registry / trademark holder?
2026-05-01T20:55:47 < zyp> vendor id is obtained through PCI-SIG membership, $5k annual fee
2026-05-01T20:55:53 < catphish> makes sense
2026-05-01T20:56:23 < catphish> i'm glad USB-IF recognise that they're not realistically revokable and so offer a one-time option
2026-05-01T20:56:41 < zyp> do they?
2026-05-01T20:56:58 < catphish> yes
2026-05-01T20:57:26 < catphish> ie they know once they issue one, they can never issue it to someone else, so there's no point pretending that an annual fee is necessary
2026-05-01T20:57:31 < zyp> I remember when they had a $2k or something «I just want a VID, no membership» kinda thing
2026-05-01T20:57:47 < veverak> catphish: by a chance, do you have material for how to get USB id somewhere?
2026-05-01T20:57:51 < catphish> that's the $6,000 option now
2026-05-01T20:58:01 < catphish> veverak: https://www.usb.org/getting-vendor-id
2026-05-01T20:58:03 < veverak> I mean, BLE membership is taking my company half a year, but I still want the USB one anyway
2026-05-01T20:58:19 < catphish> veverak: it's very simple, you either become a member, or pay a one time $6,000
2026-05-01T20:58:40 < veverak> ah, thanks!
2026-05-01T20:58:55 < catphish> if you're a member (full member or logo-only member) you can also use their logos too
2026-05-01T20:59:14 < veverak> yeah, I usually dont care about that and let the business people decide
2026-05-01T20:59:53 < catphish> i'm happy with the "one-time-fee" option as i can't see anyone caring that much about the logo
2026-05-01T21:00:05 < zyp> hmm, PCI-SIG also gets pissy about handing out PIDs
2026-05-01T21:00:07 < zyp> > Applicant acknowledges and agrees that said Vendor IDs are licensed to Applicant on an exclusive, non- assignable, non-transferable (except as may be permitted under the Bylaws) basis for use solely with Applicant's products and services, but only so long as Applicant remains a member in good standing of PCI-SIG.
2026-05-01T21:00:59 < zyp> > Applicant agrees that Applicant will not permit third parties to make use of its Vendor IDs without the express written permission of PCI- SIG, which permission may be denied at PCI-SIG’s sole discretion. Applicant further acknowledges and agrees that PCI- SIG has no duty to protect Applicant's exclusive use of said Vendor IDs with the exception that PCI-SIG warrants that it will not assign the same 
2026-05-01T21:01:04 < catphish> that's kinda nonsensical, you can't actually licence a 16 bit number
2026-05-01T21:01:05 < zyp> Vendor IDs to two or more current Members in good standing.
2026-05-01T21:01:29 < catphish> and clearly you can't stop using an ID in existing products
2026-05-01T21:01:37 < zyp> so they're effectively saying «if you let your membership lapse, we may assign your VID to somebody else»
2026-05-01T21:01:50 < zyp> but yeah, good luck doing that in practice
2026-05-01T21:02:25 < zyp> nobody wants an ID that existing drivers will bind to
2026-05-01T21:02:44 < catphish> that's literally the only reason to licence one in the first place
2026-05-01T21:02:52 < catphish> (to avoid that)
2026-05-01T21:02:57 < mercenary> in practice, that is to reclaim number space from companies that went bust 20 years ago
2026-05-01T21:03:29 < catphish> maybe, but i suspect they will never need to
2026-05-01T21:03:38 < catphish> 65,000 is a lot of manufacturers
2026-05-01T21:04:10 < jpa-> i wonder if the 16-bitness is actually artificial scarcity on purpose
2026-05-01T21:04:13 < catphish> here's a random video of me flying a drone badly around my new house last year https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KPz6390jdk
2026-05-01T21:10:02 < zyp> hmm, https://pci-ids.ucw.cz/ has 2500 VID entries, 
2026-05-01T21:11:00 < zyp> that said, 65k would disappear fairly quickly if you handed them out too freely
2026-05-01T21:11:18 < catphish> you could always just pick an unused one, set up a service like pid.codes and inform them that it is going to be used without their consent
2026-05-01T21:11:38 < zyp> so I get that they have to do some gatekeeping, but the current situation is pretty excessive
2026-05-01T21:11:45 < zyp> yeah
2026-05-01T21:12:11 < zyp> I wish somebody™ would do that for pcie :)
2026-05-01T21:12:17 < catphish> that way there's one community VID, and they basically have no choice but to not assign it to anyone else
2026-05-01T21:13:56 < catphish> so who's up for a game of PCI-chicken?
2026-05-01T21:14:03 < mercenary> catphish: one could. provided one does that from a jurisdiction where it is difficult for them to sue you
2026-05-01T21:15:36 < catphish> sue you for what?
2026-05-01T21:16:26 < zyp> hmm, PCI VID 1234 is apparently not assigned, and I'm not the only one using 1234:5678 for things :)
2026-05-01T21:16:29 < zyp> https://admin.pci-ids.ucw.cz/read/PC/1234
2026-05-01T21:16:54 < catphish> one would have to be careful not to use their trademark as such, merely to call it a vendor ID for PC compaible expansion cards :)
2026-05-01T21:16:55 < mercenary> breach of T&C when you clicked on 'request', specifically the non-transferable and not letting 3rd parties use parts
2026-05-01T21:17:17 < catphish> mercenary: no, i'm not suggesting you enter any contract with them
2026-05-01T21:17:45 < catphish> just pick out a number and inform them that it will be used without their consent
2026-05-01T21:19:40 < mercenary> not much they can do directly. but I'd expect them to ask e.g. microsoft and apple to blacklist the VID, so nothing works
2026-05-01T21:21:00 < mercenary> (having worked at another 'authorized numbers' authority, that is the type of thing they do against abuse)
2026-05-01T21:28:06 < catphish> i asked a well known AI chat assistant. it didn't think this was a good idea :D
2026-05-01T21:30:19 < catphish> from a technical perspective, it hadn't occurred to me that any OS vendor would be willing to prevent drivers using an ID just because PCI-SIG says so, however as an ISP, i will block the hell out of IP addresses if i'm informed they're being hijacked in that manner
2026-05-01T21:31:25 < mercenary> xactly.
2026-05-01T21:33:11 < catphish> today i had to explain to my bank the source of all my money, that was tedious
2026-05-01T21:34:00 < zyp> next time they ask you to, you can just give the money to me so you won't have to
2026-05-01T21:34:04 < catphish> UK money laundering rules are getting strict - fortunately i'm not doing that
2026-05-01T21:34:09 < zyp> «what money?»
2026-05-01T21:34:16 < jbo> just what a money launderer would say
2026-05-01T21:36:11 < catphish> isn't it also what a non money launderer would say though?
2026-05-01T21:36:17 < catphish> seems like it's hard to tell them apart
2026-05-01T21:50:37 < qyx> ehat did you tell them?
2026-05-01T21:52:18 < qyx> also, the whole "registry" (of any kind) thing is meh, why not just use a little bit bigger and more random id
2026-05-01T21:53:07 < qyx> (uuid)
2026-05-01T21:56:54 < catphish> i suspect the answer is more historical, i hope no new protocols will use such limited addresses
2026-05-01T21:57:32 < catphish> PCIe could easily have upgraded though, so there's really no argument that it needs to be small
2026-05-01T22:01:34 < zyp> pcie is still a packet switched network pretending to be a parallel bus :p
2026-05-01T22:13:07 < machinehum> catphish: I got my devices
2026-05-01T22:14:27 < machinehum> https://postimg.cc/gallery/vVqw3HT
2026-05-01T22:14:37 < machinehum> ch569
2026-05-01T22:15:00 < machinehum> https://shop.rootkitlabs.com/cdn/shop/files/P1410805_85dbf564-fb83-4f93-9b9c-a67709d2eb5c.jpg?v=1777639020&width=823
2026-05-01T22:24:15 < catphish> zyp: i thought PCIe was a simple 1:1 serial line
2026-05-01T22:24:49 < catphish> i guess you can put expanders in such a setup though
2026-05-01T22:24:58 < zyp> hmm?
2026-05-01T22:25:24 < catphish> machinehum: awesome, i hope they work better than mine
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2026-05-01T22:46:01 < machinehum> catphish: what happened?
2026-05-01T22:46:08 < machinehum> Mine works so far
2026-05-01T22:49:30 < catphish> machinehum: i set up EP1 as a bidirectional bridge to SPI, allowing me to program and configure my FPGA. i then set up EP2 as a high speed stream from HSPI to USB. both work great, but... if i send a packet from the host on EP1 while EP2 is streaming at full speed, one time in 10, EP2 ends up irricoverably corrupt. i don't know exactly how it's corrupt, the PC just reports errors and refuses to transfer any further data, it's as if the sequence number is 
2026-05-01T22:49:30 < catphish> being clobbered or something like that
2026-05-01T22:50:04 < catphish> i don't have low enough leven debugging to confirm what the problem is
2026-05-01T22:50:21 < catphish> but it's at a lower level in the stack than any i have enough control to cause or to fix
2026-05-01T23:02:42 < machinehum> It's not surprising you're seeing issues like that
2026-05-01T23:03:35 < machinehum> I'm leaning heavily on the hydra library and going to validate on functional and reliability tests
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2026-05-01T23:03:52 < machinehum> It's a strange chip
2026-05-01T23:04:10 < machinehum> catphish: were you using their gcc fork?
2026-05-01T23:08:36 < catphish> machinehum: no, stock GCC
2026-05-01T23:09:50 < catphish> machinehum: i cloned the parts of the hydra library i needed, and i mostly (though not entirely) understand it, it's hard to be sure without docuemntation
2026-05-01T23:16:02 < catphish> machinehum: here's my code - https://github.com/catphish/simplescope-firmware/tree/master/firmware
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2026-05-02T00:19:39 < catphish> it's the weekend when there's a music festival a mile from my house and i get free music :)
2026-05-02T00:20:00 < catphish> i should probably actually go one day
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2026-05-02T16:56:44 < karlp> shedfest?
2026-05-02T16:57:23 < karlp> shake the high road?
2026-05-02T16:57:26 < karlp> mint?
2026-05-02T16:57:49 < karlp> sound city? (myu memory says you're not near liverpool though)
2026-05-02T16:59:02 < karlp> lmr33630 is good right? ok. I have note from qyx using the 33620, 2A version.
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2026-05-02T18:08:17 < karlp> ok.  mostly done.
2026-05-02T18:15:49 < karlp> hrm, if I have my device be a hat on a rpi, uart rx goes to tx from the pi.
2026-05-02T18:16:05 < karlp> if my device lets another thing stack on top, the tx pin in the pi header goes to my tx.
2026-05-02T18:16:17 < karlp> I guess there's no easy way to do both without jumper soup...
2026-05-02T18:16:28 < karlp> spi works just fine.
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2026-05-02T18:23:22 < catphish> karlp: i guess a stack is a bus, so yeah, SPI is going to be the winner
2026-05-02T18:27:58 < mercenary> sometimes a large bus: https://sequentmicrosystems.com/blogs/blog/stackable-raspberry-pi-hats
2026-05-02T18:44:59 < karlp> catphish: eh, I just said fuck it, and placed a 2x jumper block to let it be switched.
2026-05-02T18:45:42 < karlp> trying to figure out what's a cheap easy spi device to place as a sample.  the comparison hardware uses a ~$14 24V spi io driver, which I have zero interest in.
2026-05-02T18:45:59 < karlp> I should just have 3.3v ttl "IO" for comparison....
2026-05-02T18:46:09 < karlp> gotta not let scope creep take hold...
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2026-05-02T19:05:33 < karlp> wow, I thought I was having a hard time with kicad10 in shc land
2026-05-02T19:05:36 < karlp> pcb land is fucked.
2026-05-02T19:08:43 < karlp> and my phy lines are already twisted up. aight, fuck this.
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2026-05-02T19:53:37 < catphish> i'm getting to work on a USB DAC
2026-05-02T19:54:04 < catphish> it needs to convert digitals to analogs, this should be moderately interesting
2026-05-02T19:57:37 < mercenary> handful of 10K/20K resistors tied to gpio, and an opamp for buffer?
2026-05-02T19:59:57 < catphish> ^ not this
2026-05-02T20:09:00 < mawk> without an off the shelf dac ic?
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2026-05-02T21:06:17 < catphish> mawk: absolutely not. i'll likely be using a PCM1795
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2026-05-03T14:55:33 < catphish> well that design escalated, with balanced outputs, programmable gain, and far too many power rails
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2026-05-03T15:25:31 < Steffanx> But do you have a proper power rail for your power rails yet?
2026-05-03T15:53:24 < jpa-> and programmable gain for the regulator control loops
2026-05-03T16:16:22 < mercenary> and a separate MCU for sequencing the rails at power-on
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2026-05-03T16:40:32 < Steffanx> I would go for an ethernet controlled smps.
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2026-05-03T17:46:26 < karlp> lol
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2026-05-03T19:09:15 < mawk> why Steffanx 
2026-05-03T19:09:20 < mawk> that's like caveman stuff
2026-05-03T19:09:22 < mawk> the future is BLE
2026-05-03T19:13:06 < Steffanx> Because Beaky, mawk
2026-05-03T19:13:55 < mawk> who's that
2026-05-03T19:15:30 < aandrew> lol future is ble
2026-05-03T19:21:59 < Steffanx> The fees for proper BLE are fucked up
2026-05-03T19:31:50 < aandrew> wired connection for any kind of actual lab or test work >>> wireless any day of the week and twice on sunday
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2026-05-03T23:45:22 < catphish> lol
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2026-05-04T01:45:40 < mawk> what do you mean fees Steffanx 
2026-05-04T01:45:44 < mawk> we never paid any kind of fee
2026-05-04T01:45:48 < mawk> maybe we can't technically use the name and the logo but who's going to stop us
2026-05-04T01:45:58 < mawk> aandrew: I'm trying to make the test used by the production department over cellular or ble, especially to get rid of cables
2026-05-04T01:46:08 < mawk> so they don't have to disassemble the device to connect the cables
2026-05-04T01:46:14 < mawk> it will save a ton of money
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2026-05-04T09:17:48 < machinehum> Gives me shipping addres "4234 Marion Ave, Cypress, 90630
2026-05-04T09:25:53 < machinehum> Has anyone used a 3rd party fulfillment partner? 
2026-05-04T09:26:22 < machinehum> Someone that puts you gizmo's in a box and ships them to customers
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2026-05-04T10:50:39 < Steffanx> You paid so much on testing, certification and shit that the BLE fees are irrelevant mawk :P stop being a dutch cheapskate 
2026-05-04T11:13:36 < mercenary> I am just imagining testing a batch of 50 units, all with similar-looking IDs. Now which one to connect to?
2026-05-04T11:25:03 < jpa-> all of them
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2026-05-04T11:59:30 < qyx> machinehum: nope but I plan to
2026-05-04T12:04:19 < qyx> which brings me to an unrelated question
2026-05-04T12:04:37 < qyx> is advertisement by comparison generally legal?
2026-05-04T12:05:01 < qyx> because our law prohibits that if not "anonymized" enough
2026-05-04T12:34:35 < fantanYl> in US it is
2026-05-04T12:34:45 < fantanYl> in EU generally not, AFAIK
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2026-05-04T15:57:13 < Posterdati> did anyone try to boot a bsd (netbsd, freebsd or openbsd) on stm32mp257?
2026-05-04T16:01:06 < Steffanx> jbo your help is needed
2026-05-04T16:08:50 < jbo> hi
2026-05-04T16:08:56 < Posterdati> hi
2026-05-04T16:09:02 < jbo> no I haven't
2026-05-04T16:09:19 < Posterdati> ah
2026-05-04T16:09:27 < jbo> from others I know that freebsd runs well on armv7 and arm64
2026-05-04T16:09:51 < jbo> as for stm32mp... the last time I touched it was a complete disaster, but that was not the OS fault, just ST being ST
2026-05-04T16:10:22 < Posterdati> I'm reading the docs for the stm32mp257, I do not even understan how it boots :)
2026-05-04T16:11:16 < Posterdati> the rm is not helping :)
2026-05-04T16:11:18 < jbo> if you're going to run freebsd on an embedded target, I'd generally recommend poudriere-image (or nanobsd if you're old)
2026-05-04T16:11:59 < Posterdati> did you read aarch64 code from OpenBSD?
2026-05-04T16:12:07 < jbo> nope
2026-05-04T16:12:45 < Posterdati> ok
2026-05-04T16:13:43 < Posterdati> I think that stm32mp2 is not so much different from Broadcom on PI in terms of code ported... Should be feasible as well
2026-05-04T16:14:18 < catphish> qyx: the answer to your question is well covered here as it varies hugely by juristiction: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advertising
2026-05-04T16:15:37 < catphish> it's generally allowed in europe, as long as it's honest and compares sufficiently similar products
2026-05-04T16:17:12 < catphish> fantanYl: i think it was widely disallowed in various  european countries until 1994, after which the EU stepped in and standardized some rules to allow it as long as it's fair
2026-05-04T16:27:33 < Posterdati> jbo: did you run uboot on the stm32mp1?
2026-05-04T16:32:50 < jbo> Posterdati, IIRC yes
2026-05-04T16:33:01 < jbo> but that was also pain because of ST specific modifications
2026-05-04T16:33:15 < Posterdati> jbo: do you mena the dtb's?
2026-05-04T16:33:40 < jbo> this is a from a few years ago, I don't recall all the details anymore (and honestly it's partly a trauma)
2026-05-04T16:34:11 < jbo> dtbs are usually not a problem as you can just ship your own, there was something in uboot's core code that was not upstreamed at the time
2026-05-04T16:34:17 < jbo> and all of their PMIC stuff was hard-coded
2026-05-04T16:34:40 < Posterdati> jbo: ah yes, st uses a lot of tailored peripherals
2026-05-04T16:34:56 < Posterdati> jbo: the RCC and PWR are pain in the ass
2026-05-04T16:41:45 < Posterdati> I recall the stm32h7 which is simpler
2026-05-04T16:45:17 < jbo> h7 and mp are entirely different things,  yes
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2026-05-04T17:01:10 < Posterdati> jbo: sitaras are no better :)
2026-05-04T17:13:21 < fantanYl> catphish: EU didn't even exist back in 1994
2026-05-04T17:17:03 < fantanYl> actually it already did for two full months
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2026-05-04T20:17:47 < catphish> fantanYl: yes, since 1993 - i consider the EEC to be the same entity though i realise that's not technically be the case
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2026-05-04T20:30:14 < qyx> catphish: yeah
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2026-05-04T21:33:18 < Posterdati> u-boot is not the only firmware that one can write in the ROM...
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2026-05-05T11:23:13 < fantanYl> microsoft never stops surprising me by ways how they can be maliciously "compliant"
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2026-05-05T13:50:28 < machinehum> qyx: What volumes will you start using 3PL at?
2026-05-05T13:56:47 < qyx> machinehum: what is 3PL?
2026-05-05T13:57:02 < machinehum> 3rd party logistics
2026-05-05T13:57:13 < machinehum> People who put you product in a box and ship to customers
2026-05-05T13:57:28 < machinehum> You said you were going to start using one
2026-05-05T13:59:59 < qyx> oh yeah not familiar with that abbreviation
2026-05-05T14:01:52 < qyx> it depends when the processes are working good enough it is possible
2026-05-05T14:02:39 < qyx> now even orders in he volumes of 5 pcs/mo tend to distract me
2026-05-05T14:02:55 < machinehum> Fair enough
2026-05-05T14:02:59 < qyx> and it would be good if the sales was decoupled
2026-05-05T14:03:05 < machinehum> I can do about 100 orders per month
2026-05-05T14:03:19 < machinehum> Anything more than that I need to quit my job or something
2026-05-05T14:03:42 < qyx> if you have one or two products and they are mature enough, yeah, 100 may be doale
2026-05-05T14:04:26 < qyx> but if here are eg. 5 products in the active phase and another 5 in some of the pre-release phases, it is not realistic
2026-05-05T14:05:25 < qyx> there are too many changes during prereleased I spend too much time preparing manufacturing files in a cycle that no time is left for dispatchih mature products
2026-05-05T14:05:56 < machinehum> Fair
2026-05-05T14:05:58 < qyx> sorry on a phone and curvy fingers
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2026-05-05T15:42:25 < polprog> has anyone here had issues with running USB off HSI48 in STM32H7 series?
2026-05-05T15:42:51 < polprog> we are having random dropouts and we think it may be related to the temperature
2026-05-05T15:43:22 < mrec> I did other things and had issues with the internal clock, after switching to an external clock all problems went away
2026-05-05T15:44:03 < mrec> I also did some jitter test with a logic analyser and it improved drastically
2026-05-05T15:44:51 < mrec> with the internal clock some signals were totally off (very few) but the overall jitter was also much larger than with the external clock
2026-05-05T15:45:21 < polprog> thanks
2026-05-05T15:45:29 < polprog> so this is the right direction
2026-05-05T15:46:02 < karlp> does h7 have CRS for usb?
2026-05-05T15:46:09 < polprog> what's CRS?
2026-05-05T15:47:23 < mrec> I think that is for clock recovery via USB signal
2026-05-05T15:47:46 < mrec> I think I used that with STM32F0 a long time ago
2026-05-05T15:48:21 < polprog> it does have
2026-05-05T15:49:32 < polprog> I will try that, thanks!
2026-05-05T16:19:12 < mawk> via USB or LSE crystal
2026-05-05T16:31:29 < karlp> polprog: yeah, if you're trying to use HSI for usb, you ~must use CRS
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2026-05-06T21:33:15 < bitmask> what up what up what up
2026-05-06T21:35:37 < zyp> ok
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2026-05-06T22:16:04 < bitmask> https://youtu.be/1i66WpNDkcM
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2026-05-07T16:31:01 < catphish> cubemx seems to be unable to generate cubeide projects on my system, this is going to be something of a problem for my workflow :'(
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2026-05-07T16:34:48 < fantanYl> do you need to use cubeide specifically?
2026-05-07T16:35:02 < fantanYl> it has like three other less ancient ways to generate projects
2026-05-07T16:36:39 < catphish> well... i am just in the habit of using cubeide for its nice integrated programming / debugging, but i wouldn't say i like it at all
2026-05-07T16:36:57 < catphish> assuming i don't want to use it, what sane options do i have that replicate the programming / debug setup it offers?
2026-05-07T16:38:45 < fantanYl> well, vscode with cortex-debug is reasonably nic, so anything that you can make working with vs code will do the job
2026-05-07T16:49:57 < catphish> i might have to try this, since my usual workflow just seems entirely broken now. some java error i don't understand, even with a brand new installation and brand new project
2026-05-07T16:50:41 < catphish> i'd much rather use vscode though
2026-05-07T16:52:10 < fantanYl> I genuinely hate Eclipse (which I believe CubeIDE is based on) so I got used to run debugger in separate window outside of the IDE
2026-05-07T16:59:22 < catphish> i'll try just making a makefile project and see where i end up
2026-05-07T17:06:39 < fantanYl> with makefiles most probably in hell or somewhere very near it
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2026-05-07T17:42:44 < catphish> fantanYl: what's better than makefiles?
2026-05-07T17:42:53 < catphish> i love me a simple makefile
2026-05-07T17:45:33 < fantanYl> once you start incorporating external dependencies, cmakes will get shorter than makefiles for same outcome
2026-05-07T17:45:42 < fantanYl> pretty much everything will do
2026-05-07T17:48:14 < catphish> that's probably true, i don't do that though i guess
2026-05-07T17:48:29 < catphish> maybe if i start building desktop apps it'll strart to make a difference though
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2026-05-07T17:48:57 < fantanYl> well, I do that for my embedded project for years
2026-05-07T17:49:57 < mawk> catphish: on ubuntu?
2026-05-07T17:50:04 < mawk> it's always finicky to work for me
2026-05-07T17:50:08 < catphish> mawk: i'm using gentoo right now
2026-05-07T17:50:32 < fantanYl> how bad choice did I make when I chose mcuboot?
2026-05-07T17:50:46 < mawk> when you say unable to generate cubeide project, is the cubeide project type greyed out in cubemx?
2026-05-07T17:50:59 < mawk> why not wolfboot fantanYl 
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2026-05-07T17:51:02 < mawk> they were at FOSDEM
2026-05-07T17:51:07 < mawk> they gave me a sticker so it's obviously the right choice
2026-05-07T17:51:39 < fantanYl> project is broke, so no money to pay them
2026-05-07T17:51:54 < mawk> catphish: in cubemx when you go to project manager and toolchain/IDE you selected stm32cubeide right? 
2026-05-07T17:51:58 < fantanYl> I know some of them personally
2026-05-07T17:52:37 < mawk> then you save the .mx file or .ioc or whatever, and in cubeide there is a menu to import the project from the existing .ioc or whatever and cubeide itself will generate what's needed (linker scripts, syscall glue)
2026-05-07T17:52:41 < catphish> mawk: yes, selecting that option is what causes it to fail. it generates some C code and headers, but then fails trying t make the the project files
2026-05-07T17:54:05 < catphish> mawk: cubeide can't generate code from a .ico can it? if it can, that would work
2026-05-07T17:54:39 < mawk> you generate first in cubemx which generates like most of what's needed, but it's still missing the linker scripts and such
2026-05-07T17:54:43 < mawk> then cubeide generates the rest
2026-05-07T17:55:04 < mawk> cubeide used to be able to generate itself but they removed that ability
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2026-05-07T18:04:26 < catphish> well in any case, the "generate code" functionality in cubemx is broken, it doesn't generate everything it's supposed to. i tried importing what it did generate as a project, and it loaded as a project, but was missing build config (usually that would be present after a successful cubemx code generate)
2026-05-07T18:07:26 < catphish> The Code is successfully generated under ... but STM32CubeIDEproject generation has a problem.
2026-05-07T18:07:31 < fantanYl> what is your target MCU?
2026-05-07T18:07:33 < catphish> that's the error the GUI shows
2026-05-07T18:07:39 < catphish> G431CB
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2026-05-07T18:10:17 < fantanYl> I am using this or something very similar. I guess that there is bug with in generator for some particular feature in your configuration
2026-05-07T18:12:31 < catphish> this happens with a blank / default chip configuration :(
2026-05-07T18:12:50 < catphish> tried a brand new install with all config deleted, latest versions, same issue
2026-05-07T18:13:29 < catphish> it's not a new bug either, it happened to me a couple of months ago when i first switched to cubeide 2.0, then seemed to fix itself, and now it's back
2026-05-07T18:14:12 < catphish> also, i just ran "rm -R .st *" in my homedir instead of "rm -R .st*" so that's fun
2026-05-07T18:22:06 < mawk> you have the latest version of both?
2026-05-07T18:22:18 < mercenary> s/have/had/
2026-05-07T18:22:39 < catphish> lol yes, latest version of both
2026-05-07T18:23:51 < mawk> if you start cubemx from the commandline you have interesting messages in the console?
2026-05-07T18:23:57 < mawk> when the error happens
2026-05-07T18:24:15 < catphish> yes, i can see the underlying error, one moment
2026-05-07T18:25:31 < catphish> https://pastebin.com/XmgQa8av
2026-05-07T18:27:16 < catphish> this guy had the same error, but no solution suggested https://community.st.com/t5/stm32cubemx-mcus/stm32cubemx-unable-to-generate-stm32cubeide-project/td-p/885936
2026-05-07T18:38:41 < catphish> well it generates a makefile projest just fine, so i'll give it a go using vscode and an externall programmer
2026-05-07T18:39:42 < catphish> just gotta wait for my arm gcc to compile
2026-05-07T18:40:05 < mawk> catphish: there's a vscode plugin from ST now
2026-05-07T18:40:12 < mawk> which can also generate stuff using ninja and clang
2026-05-07T18:40:15 < mawk> instead of the old gcc/cmake
2026-05-07T18:40:17 < mawk> very modern
2026-05-07T18:40:48 < mawk> very obscure java error yeah
2026-05-07T18:41:02 < mawk> something about a plugin
2026-05-07T18:41:49 < mawk> which java version are you on?
2026-05-07T18:42:00 < mawk> I have openJDK 21
2026-05-07T18:54:31 < catphish> mawk: i tried using the version it ships with, and also with openjdk version "25.0.1"
2026-05-07T18:55:11 < catphish> though i do wonder if the version it ships with isn't being used for everything and it's calling out to my newer version when it shouldn't for external execution
2026-05-07T18:58:12 < catphish> nope, not that, setting PATH didn't make any difference
2026-05-07T19:01:44 < catphish> GCC compile slow!
2026-05-07T19:16:14 < fantanYl> *sigh*
2026-05-07T19:16:59 < mawk> it's JAVA_HOME you need to set in addition to the PATH I think
2026-05-07T19:17:03 < mawk> but anyway when I had issues getting le cube to work I just put it in a ubuntu container with exactly the version they want
2026-05-07T19:17:05 < mawk> then you forward the X server inside the container
2026-05-07T19:18:54 < fantanYl> using almost any embedded third party is fucking pain in the ass
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2026-05-07T19:38:31 < karlp> I'm realyl looking foward to manually constructing my sbom :)
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2026-05-07T19:39:41 < fantanYl> I get fairly good results with CMake-sbom-builder
2026-05-07T19:40:24 < karlp> yeah, I've tried two cmake based ones already, they both expect both the project itself, and it's deps to have significantly better hygiene and cmake styles than is the reality on the ground :)
2026-05-07T19:41:58 < fantanYl> I resigned for this. C ecosystem is too broken for metadata-based generation be possible
2026-05-07T19:45:43 < fantanYl> only two complaints I have against cmake-sbom-builder are that 1) it is designed to generate SBOM at compile time which does not happen for source-level redistributables and 2) that they only provide spdx-2.3
2026-05-07T19:45:58 < karlp> yeah, I'll probably use scripts to make it eventaully, but it's going to be a bunch of massaging.
2026-05-07T19:46:33 < karlp> so.. who had heard of can+ before? sending "out of band" bits between the sampling points of can itself :)
2026-05-07T19:47:14 < fantanYl> who invented that?
2026-05-07T19:47:25 < fantanYl> boš themselves?
2026-05-07T19:47:49 < karlp> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5090826
2026-05-07T19:47:51 < karlp> hell no,
2026-05-07T19:48:05 < karlp> this is used as athe basis of some can auth shit I'm looking at.
2026-05-07T19:48:14 -!- specing [~specing@user/specing] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
2026-05-07T19:48:25 < karlp> from https://cosicdatabase.esat.kuleuven.be/backend/publications/files/conferencepaper/2086
2026-05-07T19:48:38 < karlp> (been doing CRA all week)
2026-05-07T19:49:04 < karlp> I'm still going to just go, "nope, not going to do auth on can, physical security implies authorization"
2026-05-07T19:49:09 < karlp> same for ethercat.
2026-05-07T19:49:47 < fantanYl> you can still declare need for compatibility and apply zero trust principle as mitigation for unauthenticated comms
2026-05-07T19:51:43 < karlp> yeah, I'm not terribly concerned about it, just doing some background to make sure I'm not missing anything obvious.
2026-05-07T20:05:10 < catphish> makefile setup works, at least in so much as that it compiles a fresh project successfully, now i just need to program it, but i'm sure that won't be hard with open source st-link tools
2026-05-07T20:05:55 < catphish> all this effort because somebody wants their EV charge port to lock the cable in place when it's charging
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2026-05-07T20:22:38 < mawk> use openocd to program
2026-05-07T20:22:45 < mawk> did you look at the st vscode plugins?
2026-05-07T20:23:04 < mawk> https://www.st.com/content/st_com/en/campaigns/stm32-vs-code-extension-z11.html
2026-05-07T20:23:07 < mawk> it makes cmake projects
2026-05-07T20:28:45 < fantanYl> to me the approach where cubemx is kept separate just for code generation, generates cmake which is then handled in external IDE seems the most reasonable
2026-05-07T20:29:06 < fantanYl> especially because cubemx will only generate cmake skeleton once, so you can freely modify it
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2026-05-07T20:32:19 < catphish> mawk: in the past i've used https://github.com/stlink-org/stlink (st-flash, etc)
2026-05-07T20:32:27 < mawk> yes it works too
2026-05-07T20:32:56 < mawk> yeah fantanYl unlike makefile
2026-05-07T20:32:59 < catphish> i will definitely look at vscode plugins, haven't got there yet, just setting everything up in cubemx first
2026-05-07T20:33:04 < mawk> then it overwrites the whole makefile if you generate again
2026-05-07T20:33:38 < catphish> hopefully i can get the mx config right first time, it's a very simple board
2026-05-07T20:34:00 < mawk> you can regenerate whenever you want, if you didn't modify the makefile it will be fine
2026-05-07T20:34:06 < catphish> i messed up by using the boot0 pin for GPIO, but i believe it can be disabled permanently
2026-05-07T20:34:12 < mawk> as long as you keep your own code within the BEGIN USER CODE and END USER CODE tags
2026-05-07T20:34:21 < mawk> yeah on new boards
2026-05-07T20:34:25 < mawk> on new chips I mean
2026-05-07T20:34:41 < mawk> or even all of them I think 
2026-05-07T20:35:22 < catphish> yeah, what i usually do is make my own C file with my own main function (with a different name) and put only a call to it in the user code tags of the generated main, and leave everything else alone
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2026-05-07T20:48:26 < catphish> that all seems to work :)
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2026-05-07T21:22:07 < fantanYl> ok, i've been naive if I thought I could use same HAL for both production firmware and bootloader
2026-05-07T21:22:30 < fantanYl> but if this is the final boss, it is a pretty weak one
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2026-05-07T22:33:50 < mawk> why couldn't you fantanYl ?
2026-05-07T22:34:01 < mawk> that's what I do at work
2026-05-07T22:36:43 < fantanYl> HAL for CMRX is tweaked a bit. those tweaks make bootloader sad while linking
2026-05-07T22:37:07 < mawk> o
2026-05-07T22:37:15 < mawk> untweak it
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2026-05-07T22:38:52 < fantanYl> that would break the application
2026-05-07T22:39:24 < fantanYl> kuba-generated hal isn't friendly towards stupid ideas, like an attempt to put ISR handler into static library
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2026-05-07T22:44:57 < qyx> thats why the whole idea of weak symbols as isr handlers should be nuked
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2026-05-08T09:15:44 < antto> by the time you get to the 12th update, there would've been another 13 new versions out already
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2026-05-08T13:16:05 < karlp> qyx: what do you want to do instead?
2026-05-08T13:16:25 < karlp> no default handlers? apps must always provide all of them? 
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2026-05-08T14:57:04 < qyx> karlp: a directive approach which errs if there is a typo or other error
2026-05-08T14:57:18 < qyx> not a hidden, declarative one
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2026-05-08T18:00:20 < karlp> qyx: do you have an example?
2026-05-08T18:00:36 < karlp> you want to force annotations/attributes instead of magic names?
2026-05-08T18:01:07 < karlp> so. in other news,  zephry ethernet works, but not dhcp client for some reason.
2026-05-08T18:01:34 < karlp> I have zero idea why, but there's anecdotes on teh net that mikrodick's server sometimes doesn't play well with it.
2026-05-08T18:06:01 < mercenary> if you have mikrotik, you have torch. should give a good idea as to why
2026-05-08T18:07:48 < karlp> I have no idea what torch is.
2026-05-08T18:08:33 < mercenary> tcpdump-lite, more or less
2026-05-08T18:08:59 < mercenary> mikrotik's gui on top of tcpdump
2026-05-08T18:09:13 < karlp> # Enable console
2026-05-08T18:09:16 < karlp> not that.
2026-05-08T18:09:25 < karlp> Link addr : 00:00:00:00:00:00
2026-05-08T18:09:29 < karlp> I bet it's that :)
2026-05-08T18:09:44 < karlp> lame of zephyr to not at least have a default local admin mac...
2026-05-08T18:09:49 < mercenary> it could have something to do with it
2026-05-08T18:15:23 < karlp> yep, that was it.
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--- Log opened Sat May 09 09:02:50 2026
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2026-05-09T11:42:48 < qyx> zyp: til exit tax, much lol
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2026-05-09T23:01:52 < zyp> qyx, hmm?
2026-05-09T23:04:29 < qyx> I was listening to a guy just casually rambling about the tax system in norway
2026-05-09T23:04:41 < qyx> he mentioned some exit tax so I googled it up and I lolled
2026-05-09T23:06:11 < qyx> it is something like "we are beating you but better dare not flee, we will beat you harder afterwards"
2026-05-09T23:56:21 < mawk> some people want an exit tax in franceland too
2026-05-09T23:56:31 < mawk> but the media is owned by billionaires it's too late to establish it
--- Day changed Sun May 10 2026
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2026-05-10T23:23:29 < fantanYl> spain also has exit tax
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2026-05-11T09:37:00 < qyx> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/hfbkI
2026-05-11T09:37:02 < qyx> gross
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2026-05-11T13:15:32 < karlp> check out microchip being weird again: https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/m/microchip-technology/very-verilog-a-mini-fpga-kit
2026-05-11T13:22:06 < jpa-> https://logic.microchip.com/clbsynthesizer/   i wonder how this is supposed to teach verilog
2026-05-11T13:23:04 < jpa-> ah, you can also create verilog files
2026-05-11T13:24:40 < jpa-> ok, this is actually somewhat decent, better than the renesas greenpak tool at least
2026-05-11T13:34:50 < zyp> who even makes new parts in PDIP
2026-05-11T13:35:11 < karlp> yeah, I think it's a fun web thing, but... making this through hole solder kit board is just.. wot? where are you going?
2026-05-11T13:35:21 < karlp> it's a pic16, with  this block on it...
2026-05-11T13:35:28 < karlp> and they need a second pic to program it even.
2026-05-11T13:35:47 < jpa-> maybe it appeals to the old professors
2026-05-11T13:36:10 < zyp> jpa-, wrt. greenpak, have you looked at the forgefpga stuff?
2026-05-11T13:36:19 < zyp> not so sure this beats that :p
2026-05-11T13:36:33 < jpa-> i wonder if they are still trying to kill off AVR by making avr-gcc terrible, but for some reason trying to keep PIC afloat
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2026-05-11T13:36:56 < jpa-> zyp: i haven't, but regarding greenpak i meant only the tool
2026-05-11T13:37:02 < jpa-> the greenpak chips are still pretty nice
2026-05-11T13:37:41 < zyp> the forgefpga stuff actually ingests verilog
2026-05-11T13:38:07 < jpa-> wouldn't expect anything less for a 1000+ LUT chip, but that doesn't mean the tool is good :)
2026-05-11T13:38:21 < zyp> true
2026-05-11T13:38:51 < zyp> last I looked, the parts were also not that useful
2026-05-11T13:39:14 < jpa-> looks like the chips are not really available to buy from anywhere and the listed prices are not that cheap either, so yeah, yet another cheap tiny slow fpga
2026-05-11T13:39:42 < karlp> enums are ints, except when the'rey not: " error: comparison between 'enum model_id' and 'enum <anonymous>"
2026-05-11T13:39:48 < zyp> yeah, also internal NVM is OTP, and it needs external core supply
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2026-05-11T13:42:27 < jpa-> i wish lattice got their act together and would sponsor the open source tools so they could become real alternatives
2026-05-11T13:42:51 < jpa-> but instead they keep making their own garbage tools
2026-05-11T13:43:13 < zyp> yeah, idk
2026-05-11T13:44:19 < zyp> to be honest I'd be more interested in better open source tools for non-lattice parts
2026-05-11T13:46:12 < zyp> AIUI there's some other families that are starting to get usable, e.g. lowend gowin
2026-05-11T13:48:54 < zyp> I haven't used them yet, but I'd probably try something gw1* if I needed a small FPGA (i.e. smaller than what justifies an ecp5)
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2026-05-11T14:17:25 < qyx> I still have my spartan 3A board somewhere with blinky LED
2026-05-11T14:17:43 < qyx> the first and only piece of vhdl I ever wrote
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2026-05-11T14:39:16 < zyp> I let somebody borrow my spartan 3E board over a decade ago
2026-05-11T14:41:21 < zyp> and then they passed away a couple of years ago, and I didn't find it worthwhile to try asking anybody for it, so it's probably lost forever now
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2026-05-11T16:54:42 < karlp> I mean, would you even want to be doing things on spartan 3 now anyway?
2026-05-11T16:56:32 < zyp> nope, hence not worthwhile
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2026-05-11T18:06:35 < machinehum> o_O
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2026-05-11T22:28:54 < qyx> hm I need a "i2c gate"
2026-05-11T22:29:09 < qyx> basically a 1:bus mux/switch which can be activated over i2c
2026-05-11T22:29:31 < qyx> a low capacitance one, to connect one of many adress-less slaves to a single bus
2026-05-11T22:29:45 < qyx> the catch, the bus is 1 m long
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2026-05-11T23:08:38 < zyp> qyx, you know those are common stuff, right?
2026-05-11T23:09:04 < qyx> nope, are they?
2026-05-11T23:09:36 < zyp> https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tca9548a.pdf
2026-05-11T23:11:11 < zyp> last time I used one was when we had a board with a linear array of 16 sensor chips that all had the same address
2026-05-11T23:12:23 < zyp> you can also enable more than one signal at once, so what I ended up doing was enabling all 16 channels, broadcasting a oneshot trigger to all sensors at once
2026-05-11T23:12:29 < zyp> then collecting data from them one by one
2026-05-11T23:13:23 < qyx> wait what
2026-05-11T23:13:31 < qyx> I have some TCA9543A here
2026-05-11T23:13:44 < qyx> so I used that stuff somewhere
2026-05-11T23:14:01 < qyx> I thought it is a simple 1:2 mux
2026-05-11T23:14:05 < zyp> like I said, they're common :)
2026-05-11T23:14:44 < qyx> but it is only a switch, not a redriver, right?
2026-05-11T23:15:51 < zyp> I think it's also effectively a voltage translator
2026-05-11T23:18:00 < zyp> but if that's not enough, you might want something like a TCA9801 in the mix somewhere
2026-05-11T23:20:43 < zyp> or a TCA4307 if you really want to be fancy
2026-05-11T23:22:26 < qyx> I want it to work
2026-05-11T23:23:09 < qyx> and since I have some pcb coils here and there with low capacitance requirements which need to be shielded, I am gonna enclose them in the two internal layers, together with signal lines
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2026-05-11T23:23:20 < qyx> and top and bottom would be a mesh for low capacitance
2026-05-11T23:23:35 < qyx> that way the i2c wire could be really low capacitance if I do it properly
2026-05-11T23:23:47 < qyx> and shielded from the emi from the outside
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2026-05-12T17:07:23 < bitmask> hi hi
2026-05-12T17:07:54 < jpa-> bitmask >>= 16;
2026-05-12T17:08:07 < bitmask> :O
2026-05-12T17:12:43 < jbo> you should use one of the cargo crates for that so it's extra memory safe, jpa- 
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2026-05-12T17:31:57 < Steffanx> Hello welcome jbo
2026-05-12T17:32:38 < jbo> hello Steffanx
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2026-05-12T20:09:25 < karlp> hecking nice.  ishi(a,b) macro... in the bootloader code, that's if a has any of b bits.
2026-05-12T20:09:33 < karlp> in the app code, it's a has _all_ of b bits.
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2026-05-13T13:34:50 < karlp> meh, finally got spi on zephyr working on my board.
2026-05-13T13:35:04 < karlp> was missing a pinctrl "push-pull" setting for the clk line.
2026-05-13T13:39:58 < qyx> don't you think innovation slows down our life?
2026-05-13T13:40:24  * karlp shrugs
2026-05-13T13:40:25 < zyp> how are you enjoying zephyr so far?
2026-05-13T13:40:28 < karlp> zyp: pretty mixed
2026-05-13T13:40:35 < karlp> I love how much is .... in theory... available to me.
2026-05-13T13:40:43 < karlp> I think that will still prove to be correct.
2026-05-13T13:41:02 < karlp> but.. other things seem... awkwardly obtuse at times.
2026-05-13T13:41:12 < karlp> this took _far_ longer than I'd want to get going.
2026-05-13T13:42:12 < karlp> still no idea how to use hardware cs, which with the vendor hal was pretty straight forward, but seems tbo be (from inspection) simply absent from the zephyr spi driver.
2026-05-13T13:42:40 < karlp> I mean, it probably makes slim-no difference really anwyya, whether there's a gpio call to set/clear, or a XMC_SPI_CH_EnableSlaveSelect(SPI_IO_HW, SPI_IO_SS_1_CHANNEL);
2026-05-13T13:42:46 < karlp> call or siomilar, so..
2026-05-13T13:42:48  * karlp shrugs
2026-05-13T13:42:58 < zyp> I've come to expect to waste hours every time I need to figure out how to configure something correctly
2026-05-13T13:43:05 < zyp> was pleasantly surprised for once last week
2026-05-13T13:43:14 < karlp> eyah, I had a few things early go _reallllly_ smoothly
2026-05-13T13:43:20 < karlp> then spi has been quite a few roadblocks.
2026-05-13T13:44:04 < karlp> think I'll try out the canopen node built in, then look at making this into a proper driver for the spi device, see how that goes.
2026-05-13T13:44:10 < karlp> I reallllly want to get usb hooked up though.
2026-05-13T13:44:18 < karlp> they have dwc2, but not for xmc48,
2026-05-13T13:44:29 < karlp> it _should_ "jsut" be some clock setup.
2026-05-13T13:45:31 < zyp> last week I received a bunch of produced units that I was going to flash/provision for the client that needed them ASAP because they were on the way to where they would be installed
2026-05-13T13:45:43 < zyp> and the firmware didn't want to boot
2026-05-13T13:45:53 < karlp> what I have (re)discovered is that this hantek 6022bl I have, is absolutely _garbage_ at triggering
2026-05-13T13:47:49 < zyp> debugger quickly told me that it didn't get through the bootloader, so I immediately suspected the spi flash, and it turned out that the assembly house had switched to a different part than what was used on the prototypes
2026-05-13T13:48:08 < zyp> same size, equivalent stuff, but different mfg
2026-05-13T13:48:34 < zyp> so it has a different id from what was listed in the device tree
2026-05-13T13:49:07 < karlp> you listed spi jedec ids in dt? why?
2026-05-13T13:49:25 < karlp> that's like my work, that has also hardcoded jedec ids into the "check comms"
2026-05-13T13:49:55 < zyp> because whatever example I referenced when I wrote the dt did
2026-05-13T13:50:09 < qyx> how can the assembly house switch to "equivalent" parts on their own?
2026-05-13T13:50:54 < zyp> it was listed as an alternate part on older (non-zephyr) projects we've run with them, and they didn't explicitly check if that applied to this project as well
2026-05-13T13:51:43 < qyx> anyway, this kind of bug is easily catched with the always hated printf/log debugging on some kind of uart diagnostic console
2026-05-13T13:52:08 < qyx> a simple "unknown flash id 0x000000" is a clear message to anyone looking at it
2026-05-13T13:53:10 < qyx> but NO YOU DON'T NEED NO SERIAL, PROS USE DEBUGGERZ
2026-05-13T13:53:23 < qyx> which makes me sad
2026-05-13T13:53:42 < zyp> sure, I caught it easily enough, but I expected to spend the rest of the day figuring out how to make a zephyr build that would accept either part, because just changing the ID is not a good idea when there's devices in the wild with the old part
2026-05-13T13:54:01 < zyp> because that's how it usually goes
2026-05-13T13:54:50 < zyp> but for once I found the right config option at first guess, deleted the id from the dts and it just worked first try
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2026-05-13T14:53:30 < mawk> they threw away my nice fabric ESD bracelet and bought new metal ones
2026-05-13T14:53:34 < mawk> it's horrible
2026-05-13T14:53:36 < mawk> it keeps pulling my arm hair
2026-05-13T14:53:58 < mawk> zyp: I like zephyr, when you're doing things it allows you to do
2026-05-13T14:54:14 < mawk> but as soon as it's slightly non-standard it gets hard
2026-05-13T14:54:47 < fantanYl> is it because you are not supposed to do these things?
2026-05-13T14:55:24 < mawk> not really, just not supported
2026-05-13T14:55:39 < mawk> like last time I was trying to upgrade the firmware of the wifi module
2026-05-13T14:56:06 < mawk> to bring up the wifi module I need to include the network stack, which automatically configures the module; and I couldn't get access to only the module driver without bringing up the whole network stack with it
2026-05-13T14:57:48 < mawk> so I ended up commenting code out to just get what I neede
2026-05-13T14:58:20 < qyx> my experience with zephyr was exactly like this, it only works when you do exactly the same as the original developer did
2026-05-13T14:59:46 < fantanYl> i wonder how good or bad device diver API is
2026-05-13T14:59:58 < fantanYl> if there is any repeatability or it is each driver its own API
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2026-05-13T15:08:13 < mawk> it's standardized
2026-05-13T15:08:23 < mawk> but firmware updates is device-specific so I had to do things manually
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2026-05-13T15:11:39 < qyx> firmware updates can be device agnostic too
2026-05-13T15:12:00 < mawk> yeah if they added that to the driver template there could be a standard way to do it
2026-05-13T15:12:15 < qyx> and since it is basically a requirement nowadays, they should be
2026-05-13T15:18:30 < karlp> aight, can works.
2026-05-13T15:40:02 < qyx> kicad pros, in pcbnew, esc can be used to cancel any tool and activate the selection tool
2026-05-13T15:40:18 < qyx> except the "measure tool", can anyone confirm?
2026-05-13T15:40:35 < qyx> but I am still on 9.x
2026-05-13T15:41:15 < qyx> https://forum.kicad.info/t/exiting-measure-tool/62965
2026-05-13T15:41:43 < qyx> yes I have 9.0.2, fun
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--- Day changed Thu May 14 2026
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2026-05-14T01:42:29 < karlp> well, new warning for me: "warning: function with qualified void return type called"
2026-05-14T01:42:42 < karlp> tf is a qualified void return you ask? me too!
2026-05-14T01:43:26 < karlp> someone has written a bunch of little stub functions like `volatile void blah(void) { some_volatile_var = something}`
2026-05-14T01:43:38 < karlp> I don't know what they thought they were doing....
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2026-05-14T02:21:15 < qyx> volatile is a qualifier?
2026-05-14T02:21:27 < qyx> volatile void is a qualified void then?
2026-05-14T02:21:59 < qyx> but yeah it wouldn't come to my mind if i only saw the warning
2026-05-14T02:22:22 < qyx> I have some qualified voids in my head though
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2026-05-14T08:16:37 < antto> the v in cv qualifiers is for volatile
2026-05-14T09:57:10 < jpa-> karlp: they had a bug and added volatile everywhere, because it's clearly the compiler's fault there is a bug
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2026-05-14T11:34:24 < fantanYl> did I do anything wrong if openocd claims `load_image` wrote data into flash but it is empty?
2026-05-14T11:47:28 < zyp> yes
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2026-05-14T11:52:30 < fantanYl> cool :)
2026-05-14T11:52:56 < fantanYl> operation failed successfully
2026-05-14T11:55:51 < fantanYl> ah, load_image and flash write_image are two different things
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2026-05-14T13:48:36 < mawk> you have the easy program command fantanYl 
2026-05-14T13:48:45 < mawk> to erase flash verify and reset all at once
2026-05-14T13:51:16 < fantanYl> flash write_image did the trick
2026-05-14T13:51:25 < fantanYl> now I have to find out why bootloader rejects the image
2026-05-14T13:57:12 < mawk> still testing mcuboot?
2026-05-14T13:57:23 < mawk> I assume you have some header with a hash / signature to put somewhere 
2026-05-14T13:57:39 < mawk> I only know about ST's bootloader and the old nordic one
2026-05-14T13:58:53 < fantanYl> It apparently found the header as it reports correct image version. I guess the problem will be with wrongly-configured public key and/or that I disabled EC which is used by imgtool to sign the image.
2026-05-14T14:26:32 < mawk> are you doing partial erase?
2026-05-14T14:28:12 < mawk> I should read up on mcuboot, but with nordic's for instance you can't simply erase and program, you have to preserve some pieces of data
2026-05-14T14:29:08 < fantanYl> right now I am trying the simplest scenario: Force-flashing single image in place and trying to boot it.
2026-05-14T14:29:24 < fantanYl> unfortunately MCUboot documentation is a toast
2026-05-14T14:29:38 < fantanYl> partially outdated, partially ambiguous, partially entirely missing
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2026-05-14T19:34:48 < fantanYl> mawk: stupid error - image has to be "confirmed" if you dump it via debugger
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--- Day changed Fri May 15 2026
2026-05-15T00:08:08 < karlp> jpa-: well, yeah, that's what I know actually happened, I just... 
2026-05-15T00:09:05 < karlp> fantanYl: I find "program" to have better semantics than the flash write_image.
2026-05-15T00:09:13 < karlp> program also understands elf.
2026-05-15T00:09:37 < karlp> yeah, mcuboot seems like a forgotten stepchild
2026-05-15T00:10:05 < qyx> haha
2026-05-15T00:10:30 < karlp> hrm, trying to get colleagues ethercat demo shit working
2026-05-15T00:10:43 < karlp> the readme refers to test and verification scripts that are not in the repo.
2026-05-15T00:11:03 < qyx> I just woke up and assessing my current possibilities
2026-05-15T00:11:17 < qyx> work, now work, head no hurt anymore, keg hurts
2026-05-15T00:11:29 < qyx> *not
2026-05-15T00:11:45 < karlp> hrm, looks like it was never in the repo.
2026-05-15T00:11:47 < karlp> great.
2026-05-15T00:12:19 < karlp> oh,  no, this is going to be because of the morons deciding that can and ethercat can't run at the same time.
2026-05-15T00:12:24 < karlp> ffs.
2026-05-15T00:12:36 < qyx> why?
2026-05-15T00:12:45 < karlp> "because that would be confusing"
2026-05-15T00:12:53 < karlp> said no-one ever except them.
2026-05-15T00:12:55 < qyx> oh noice
2026-05-15T00:13:32 < karlp> so instead of just letting masters on either work out of the box, you now need to use button press incantantations with 2x 7seg display, to change modes.
2026-05-15T00:13:52 < qyx> don't you want to become a writer instead? I heard iceland has the highest number of books written per capita
2026-05-15T00:13:52 < karlp> "hur hur, we've ensured that no-one ever provides conflicting instructions from different field bus masters at the same time!"
2026-05-15T00:14:12 < qyx> wohld be less stressing than doing anythig related to programming
2026-05-15T00:14:20 < karlp> we've also made migration from can -> ecat a nightmare.
2026-05-15T00:14:34 < karlp> right, let's see if I can figure out the incantations then.
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2026-05-15T00:18:01 < karlp> lol, the serial port has a mix of \r\n and just \n in the interface they made up.
2026-05-15T00:18:04 < karlp> fuckers
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2026-05-15T00:26:11 < fantanYl> karlp: it seems that GDB's `load` works too
2026-05-15T00:27:55 < karlp> yeah, that's my normally preferred method.
2026-05-15T00:34:36 < fantanYl> now next two tasks are 1) restore MCU into state apps HAL won't be fucked up after boot by things bootloader's HAL did 2) figure out how to activate memory isolation with firmware now being non-NAPOT allocated
2026-05-15T00:55:17 < qyx> how on earth do I change net of a track in kicad
2026-05-15T00:55:25 < qyx> edit doesn't work as soon as I select more than one segment
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2026-05-15T01:43:02 < qyx> hey zyp, those i2c gates you mentioned recently, did you use pullups on all downstream ports too? at least some weak ones?
2026-05-15T01:43:54 < zyp> hmm, I don't recall, this was a work project so coworkers did the hardware
2026-05-15T01:45:36 < qyx> because I am observing weird behaviour when the specific line is switched on after it was switched off for a longer period of time
2026-05-15T01:46:03 < zyp> I would assume downstream ports also should have pullups
2026-05-15T01:46:10 < zyp> unless built in
2026-05-15T01:46:38 < qyx> it shows as an unusually high capacitance, it takes time to charge that again to Vdd
2026-05-15T01:46:57 < qyx> but I may be completely wrong at that point
2026-05-15T01:56:11 < zyp> didn't it say it worked as a level shifter as well, that kinda implies that it needs pullups on both sides :p
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2026-05-15T02:30:27 < qyx> that's the other one
2026-05-15T02:36:01 < zyp> oh, you mean the buffer thing? I've never used that
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2026-05-15T09:47:03 < qyx> ##pouring32
2026-05-15T09:47:45 < qyx> a bit of rain for a genuine organic ##stm32 experience, after 2 months or so
2026-05-15T09:50:25 < zyp> sounds about right
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2026-05-15T14:25:39 < jpa-> st is sending me some "start your download" spam, probably from some links i have clicked a decade ago
2026-05-15T14:27:31 < qyx> same here
2026-05-15T14:27:37 < qyx> Hi Marek
2026-05-15T14:27:37 < qyx> Please click on this button to start the download of the requested content:
2026-05-15T14:27:58 < qyx> I looked 3 times if it is a scam or not
2026-05-15T14:31:15 < zyp> same, both on work mail and personal
2026-05-15T14:31:58 < jbo> guess you're getting two downloads then!
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2026-05-15T14:54:39 < karlp> I got them too, but they're broken anyway.
2026-05-15T14:55:21 < karlp> also, fuck this ethercat shit.  soem, the "free" open source master side, under pysoem here https://github.com/openethercatsociety/soem has a link to the docs...
2026-05-15T14:55:30 < karlp> yo ucan't see any docs without signing in?!
2026-05-15T14:56:05 < qyx> it is a society, you can't just infiltrate
2026-05-15T14:56:16 < karlp> commercial entity that seems to have absorbed this at some point https://rt-labs.com/licensing-and-pricing-model/ is like, "yeah, signup for FREE, _then_ you can read about it!"
2026-05-15T15:00:16 < karlp> absolutely the worst sort of open source
2026-05-15T15:04:01 < zyp> yeah, there's so much bullshit around ethercat that I don't want to touch it
2026-05-15T15:04:47 < karlp> I mean, profinet/iolink/cclink is worse.
2026-05-15T15:05:06 < zyp> sure, I don't want to touch that either
2026-05-15T15:05:21 < karlp> new imxrt parts are going to have different order codes to "license" the ethercat slave periph :)
2026-05-15T15:05:29 < karlp> (they admit it won't be different hardware)
2026-05-15T15:06:24 < qyx> will they block the peripheral if you don't pay?
2026-05-15T15:06:25 < karlp> ethernet/ip isn't really any different is it?
2026-05-15T15:06:40 < karlp> and opcua can just fuck right off.
2026-05-15T15:07:14 < karlp> I don't even really want to use it per se, just want to bolt in enough to prove it can run under zephyr, but I can't even get the demo shit to work on linux
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2026-05-15T17:09:37 < jbo> I see everyone is having a fantastic time so far!
2026-05-15T17:30:44 < karlp> everything is awesome!
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2026-05-15T17:50:32 < mawk> I'm trying to enable ECDSA code signing on the smartcard, I love that the only feedback the card gives is a cryptic 2 byte error code and nothing else
2026-05-15T17:50:41 < mawk> after 4 hours I got it to change from "security error" to "data error"
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2026-05-15T17:59:34 < mercenary> so, your data is wrong, but at least it is now secure?
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2026-05-15T18:56:47 < karlp> fuckin lol, I've been dealing with a w3eird corruption bug for a while (with other stuff) but it kept recurring.
2026-05-15T18:57:02 < karlp> for some fucking reason, I changed a memory size definition form 32k to 128k to "match what was on the board"
2026-05-15T18:57:17 < karlp> I'm using about ~36-38k or so...
2026-05-15T18:57:23 < karlp> ... except, it's not 128k on the board
2026-05-15T18:57:26 < karlp> it's 32k...
2026-05-15T18:57:37 < karlp> I cannot find any other board here that has ever had 128k.
2026-05-15T18:57:48 < karlp> I have no idea why I came up wit hthe idea that 32k was wrong, and it should be 128k.
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2026-05-15T19:33:54 < veverak> has anybody tried NTP on embedded here?
2026-05-15T19:34:51 < veverak> basically the question was whenever we coud play sound from two boards connected together via RS485 (one has NRF52840, another STM32U5)... and I realized that maybe with SNTP we could synchronized the clocks well enough for this to be ... not so hard?
2026-05-15T19:35:01 < veverak> (I control the firmware and protocol on both sides)
2026-05-15T19:38:49 < veverak> Our internal estimate is that <20ms variance is good enough for decent enough sound, I have RS485 on 115200 baudrate which could be faster, so... maybe yes? (I was imagining something like clock sync every 1s or 10s or something like that)
2026-05-15T19:41:26 < mercenary> sounds like a lot of complexity that you could fix with just a heartbeat-type solution
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2026-05-15T20:02:31 < qyx> veverak: what if you match opposite phase exactly?
2026-05-15T20:02:51 < qyx> idk how is sound perceived in thet case
2026-05-15T20:02:56 < qyx> *that
2026-05-15T20:04:53 < veverak> it confuses the fuck out of your brain as to from where the sound is and creates effect of it being everywhere
2026-05-15T20:05:13 < veverak> source: one of my team members is ex game dev and this was cheap trick used in the past for playing stereo with just mono files :)
2026-05-15T20:06:06 < veverak> mercenary: actually, heartbeat (as in: I periodically send a message to signal now) sounds like more complexity to get it right, NTP should be more robust (for NTP it is completely fine to delay the time syncs a bit or something)
2026-05-15T20:06:16 < zyp> veverak, you could also do PTP, I think most MCU MACs tend to support it
2026-05-15T20:06:29 < veverak> MAC?
2026-05-15T20:06:51 < zyp> oh, wait, you wanna do SNTP over RS485? :)
2026-05-15T20:07:02 < veverak> ah, PTP might make more sense
2026-05-15T20:08:19 < veverak> zyp: I have two devices connected via RS485, SNTP was just my first choice
2026-05-15T20:08:43 < zyp> are you running IP over RS485? :p
2026-05-15T20:09:12 < veverak> no, but in the end SNTP is just algorithm, I dont think it can't be adapted :)
2026-05-15T20:10:03 < zyp> sounds like more complexity than necessary, you don't have switches with store-and-forward latency to compensate for
2026-05-15T20:11:11 < veverak> it did not sounded that complex
2026-05-15T20:16:03 < mercenary> The proper NTP algorithm is pretty complex, sort of a PLL that also has to select the best source. sntp is just a shortcut thing that does the 'it is now 12:34' and jumps the time, without all the clock adjustment logic
2026-05-15T20:16:40 < veverak> the part that actually got my attention is the skew estimation (whcih should be part of it)
2026-05-15T20:17:08 < veverak> we have external crystals and as far as I know, as long as temperature is stable the skew of the clock should be constant?
2026-05-15T20:18:18 < veverak> which feels like... it should not be hard to get into reasonable error (we guessed that <20ms should be fine enough)
2026-05-15T20:18:22 < mercenary> it is never constant. the trick is to get it to where variations are small enough not to matter for the application
2026-05-15T20:19:24 < veverak> and I also do not mind investing into this, as we got similar requests in the past and it seems we might get them again in the future
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2026-05-15T20:21:52 < mercenary> by all means, give it a go. look at how things like chrony or openbsd's ntpd do it, those are implementations that have cut away most of the old cruft from the ntpd reference implementation
2026-05-15T20:22:45 < veverak> it also helps that the speakers are of not great quality and usually what we should do: "make sure it blows their head ofF"
2026-05-15T20:23:49 < veverak> (mobile devices used outdoor, in this case we are thinking about putting another speaker on device that has rs485 internally)
2026-05-15T20:26:21 < mercenary> how long do you have to get it into sync? the 'roughly the same time' works in seconds. the 'down to a few ms' takes minutes to hours.
2026-05-15T20:27:13 < veverak> So, the only issue there is battery, the synced audio won't have to be played in first few 30 minutes most propably
2026-05-15T20:27:45 < veverak> BUT, it's prototype, we have some guesses about battery life, but I might turn off the second MCU if we underestimated stuff a lot
2026-05-15T20:28:21 < veverak> Good part is that we have really high granularity for power-enable on most of the system, and the U5 itself with RS485 connection is pretty low on the list in terms of power consumption :)
2026-05-15T21:27:54 < qyx> sntp should be perfectly doable with rs485
2026-05-15T21:28:10 < qyx> in its simplest form
2026-05-15T21:28:28 < qyx> you still need to compensate for transmit/receive delays (buffers)
2026-05-15T21:30:18 < qyx> mercenary: down to a few ms can be done by one sntp run over a reasonably deterministic medium
2026-05-15T21:30:53 < qyx> also you can omit ntpd's 'adjust' algo and just do stepping
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2026-05-15T22:56:31 < qyx> veverak: but but why rs485? we have cheap 10base-t1l nowadays with ptp
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2026-05-15T23:08:25 < karlp> veverak: my old company's core product was based around <1ms timesync over rs485 :)
2026-05-15T23:08:46 < karlp> but they're dead now...
2026-05-15T23:09:19 < karlp> but yeah, it's pretty easy to just have the master do a write to a special address with the master time in it, and slaves can compare that to their own timers.
2026-05-15T23:09:21 < zyp> for matching current/voltage phase?
2026-05-15T23:09:25 < karlp> yeah.
2026-05-15T23:09:55 < karlp> timesync first, then on top of that for distributing voltage phase timing to the current devies to get power without having live connections
2026-05-15T23:10:27 < karlp> qyx: 10-1l is still nothing near as cheap or understood as rs485....
2026-05-15T23:10:45 < karlp> later I did the same thing over btle.
2026-05-15T23:10:57 < karlp> that was less straightforward.
2026-05-15T23:11:27 < veverak> qyx: because the device is already designed with RS485
2026-05-15T23:11:44 < karlp> veverak: we followed more the design descriptions of ptp rather than sntp, but it's all much the same.
2026-05-15T23:12:33 < veverak> frankly, I would actually prefer CAN, but here we are :/
2026-05-15T23:13:17 < karlp> it's just "take time on local clock of packet arrival"
2026-05-15T23:13:29 < karlp> https://github.com/etactica/freemodbus/commit/5f6be125b42c594f11d4ea5aadeee9ca87c0d908 is the freemodbus hook we patched for it.....
2026-05-15T23:14:41 < karlp> we had the master side control all of the slave clocks, and exposed clock pushing/pulling knobs over modbus, but you could impelment it all on the slaves more like a normal ntp client if you preferred,
2026-05-15T23:14:52 < karlp> was less thigns to update for us to just steer it from the top end.
2026-05-15T23:15:51 < karlp> rs485 is only low power if you don't have line biasing
2026-05-15T23:15:59 < karlp> but if you dont' have line biasing you have shitty reliability anyway.....
2026-05-15T23:19:51 < qyx> sad
2026-05-15T23:21:45 < karlp> so... t1-l? :)
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2026-05-16T22:44:51 < qyx> so, what was that rx/tx SDR we were talking about? some recommendations?
2026-05-16T22:45:18 < qyx> I need something for sub-1G, 1x rx, 1x tx, >= 1MHz bw
2026-05-16T22:46:05 < qyx> why do I keep forgetting doing notes to myself about things I will surely need in the future
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2026-05-16T23:25:56 < zyp> don't you have irc logs enabled?
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2026-05-17T00:13:11 < qyx> no
2026-05-17T00:13:26 < qyx> nah I am not gonna use those i2c muxes in the end
2026-05-17T00:13:48 < qyx> I am worried too much, the new requirement is 3 m bus length
2026-05-17T00:15:00 < qyx> I'll use stm32g431 as a gateway to CAN which would solve me some additional requirements like multi-master comms, bigger address space, noise, etc.
2026-05-17T00:15:10 < qyx> and then a single CAN to ethernet bridge
2026-05-17T00:17:39 < qyx> also CAN can do 1 mbaud easily
2026-05-17T00:29:47 < catphish> STM32G431 is great for USB and for CAN, though for USB *and* CAN i end up using STM32G473 because of pin constraints
2026-05-17T00:33:53 < qyx> yeah
2026-05-17T00:46:56 < qyx> one more reason for a MCU on the board is that those inductive converters need input clock
2026-05-17T00:47:26 < qyx> now the question is, mco or timer CC?
2026-05-17T00:56:27 < zyp> I saw they have some C0 variants with USB and some C0 variants with CAN, but apparently none with both
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2026-05-17T02:33:03 < karlp> so, f1 by any other name? :)
2026-05-17T02:33:17 < karlp> qyx: I've been looking at a pluto+ for a while...
2026-05-17T02:33:26 < karlp> might call it a birthday present if I keep looking at it long enough
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2026-05-17T12:24:16 < qyx> karlp: hm looks good, also ethernet
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2026-05-18T16:26:52 < qyx> anyone with SPI on H7?
2026-05-18T16:32:44 < tomeaton17> I have in the past
2026-05-18T16:40:39 < qyx> I have some issues with interrupts, I configure data size to 8, etc etc, everything works as expecting when polling for TXC flag
2026-05-18T16:41:08 < qyx> my messages are short, 3 or 5 bytes, so I enable fifo, write 3 bytes at once, set SPE and CSTART
2026-05-18T16:41:38 < qyx> poll TXC to see when the transaction is over, then I read the same number of bytes from the rx fifo
2026-05-18T16:41:56 < qyx> now i want to enable EOT interrupt, which enables TXC, SUSP and EOT at the same time
2026-05-18T16:42:23 < qyx> now my EOT interrupt fires in a loop despite clearing the EOT flag
2026-05-18T16:42:29 < qyx> (by writing 1 to it)
2026-05-18T16:43:01 < qyx> oh yeah and I am writing TSIZE to 3
2026-05-18T16:45:14 < qyx> after the fifo is filled, I get SR = 0x701f
2026-05-18T16:45:47 < qyx> meaning TXC, TXTF, EOT, DXP, TXP, RXP is set, which looks normal
2026-05-18T16:47:13 < qyx> interrupt is fired, I clear EOT, signal a semaphore and then the interrupt is fired again
2026-05-18T16:47:16 < qyx> and again, etc.
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2026-05-18T16:51:10 < zyp> checked errata?
2026-05-18T17:14:06 < qyx> TXP interrupt occurring while SPI disabled
2026-05-18T17:14:07 < qyx> oh
2026-05-18T17:14:18 < qyx> SPI peripheral is set to its default state when disabled (SPE = 0). This flushes the FIFO buffers and resets their
2026-05-18T17:14:21 < qyx> occupancy flags. TXP and TXC flags become set (the latter if the TSIZE field contains zero value), triggering
2026-05-18T17:14:24 < qyx> interrupt if enabled with TXPIE or EOTIE bit, respectively. The resulting interrupt service can be spurious if it tries
2026-05-18T17:14:27 < qyx> to write data into TXFIFO to clear the TXP and TXC flags, while both FIFO buffers are inaccessible (as the
2026-05-18T17:14:30 < qyx> peripheral is disabled).
2026-05-18T17:16:15 < qyx> nope
2026-05-18T17:24:44 < tomeaton17> cant you disable the interrupt before disabling the peripheral
2026-05-18T17:25:05 < qyx> yes, doesn't help
2026-05-18T17:26:27 < tomeaton17> interesting
2026-05-18T17:27:10 < karlp> every day is another day to not use h7 ;)
2026-05-18T17:27:32 < tomeaton17> I don't remember having too much a trouble with it
2026-05-18T17:27:37 < tomeaton17> spi at least
2026-05-18T17:29:20 < tomeaton17> how is TXP causing EOT interrupt
2026-05-18T17:29:29 < tomeaton17> or have I misunderstood
2026-05-18T17:36:01 < qyx> enabling EOT interrupt triggers the handler on EOT, TXC and SUSP
2026-05-18T17:36:03 < qyx> EOTIE: EOT, SUSP and TXC interrupt enable
2026-05-18T17:39:08 < tomeaton17> yeah but how does TXP come into it
2026-05-18T17:39:47 < qyx> oh wait, I progressed a bit, now the problem is tiwh the semaphore
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2026-05-18T18:01:37 < qyx> yeah I have to keep the interrupt turned off when not in use
2026-05-18T18:02:22 < qyx> the working flow is enable SPI, write fifo, turn interrupt on, wait wor it, *turn it off* directly in the handler, signal the semaphore, read fifo
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2026-05-18T22:16:17 < vampirefrog> I got Claude to code me a firmware for the STM32F4 Disco board that turns it into an audio interface
2026-05-18T22:16:19 < vampirefrog> but it has a buzz
2026-05-18T22:16:36 < vampirefrog> like every now and then there's a buzz that resolves itself, so I'm having it debug it
2026-05-18T22:18:13 < vampirefrog> it's the classic issue of synchronizing the DAC with the USB SOF, it suggested two solutions for me. one is to have the host adjust itself and the other is to resync the PLLI2S
2026-05-18T22:19:08 < fantanYl> IME when you push jean-claude van AI into corner, it starts generating bullshit
2026-05-18T22:19:32 < fantanYl> your luck depends on how many examples are there for what you are trying to achieve
2026-05-18T22:19:40 < fantanYl> in my case the usual answer is: barely any
2026-05-18T22:20:41 < vampirefrog> I know but I'm actually impressed with the paid version even though I haven't been able to use any of its output because I can't trust it
2026-05-18T22:20:56 < mrec> I let it try to optimise some HDL code. AI behaves like the absolute overlord wizard, the result is that it just breaks :-)
2026-05-18T22:21:08 < vampirefrog> basically you can have it generate the code but you still have to manually verify
2026-05-18T22:21:20 < vampirefrog> it's good if you give it small simple bits to do, that you manually verify
2026-05-18T22:21:35 < vampirefrog> I still can't trust it
2026-05-18T22:25:47 < fantanYl> that's sane approach. for me, a lot of generated code contained tricky bugs
2026-05-18T22:26:09 < fantanYl> even if the code builds and runs, it can be fundamentally wrong
2026-05-18T22:27:11 < fantanYl> my best luck was when I commanded it: "please port this shit to Zephyr"
2026-05-18T22:27:33 < fantanYl> it was almost OK, after third or fourth attempt
2026-05-18T22:28:01 < vampirefrog> it's one of those things that you try initially and maybe get away with it but then you still have to manually intervene in both coding and testing
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2026-05-18T23:29:30 < vampirefrog> ok here it is have yourself a laugh https://github.com/vampirefrog/stm32f4-disco-usb-audio
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2026-05-19T00:19:58 < qyx> so, the SPI issue, I was debugging 3 hours and found out the whole sequence is good, all flags are set as they should be set, SPI transfer works for the first time *only*
2026-05-19T00:20:16 < qyx> as long as I run a second transfer/exchange, the EOT flag is never set again
2026-05-19T00:20:32 < qyx> I am unsetting SPE between transfers
2026-05-19T00:22:33 < qyx> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/pYUny
2026-05-19T00:36:27 < qyx> ok I need to clear ALL flags before starting a new transmission
2026-05-19T00:45:57 < qyx> oh and another one, you need to wait for TXC, but clear EOTC afterwards
2026-05-19T00:46:48 < qyx> because TXC is set at the end of the actual transmission after the last frame is shifted out, EOT is set after writing the last frame to the shift register
2026-05-19T00:47:01 < qyx> but EOT enables TXC
2026-05-19T00:47:15 < qyx> you also cannot wait on both, once EOT arrives and you clear it, TXC never arrives
2026-05-19T00:47:31 < qyx> waht a mess or I am dumb
2026-05-19T00:47:48 < qyx> and no karlp I cannot avoid it because it is on all newer STM32s, not only H7
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2026-05-19T04:09:03 < fenugrec> englishman : hey, do you still picknplace stuff ? do you have a need for jedec IC trays ? seems a shame to throw them out but I sure don't need em
2026-05-19T04:14:01 < englishman> ha yeah i didn’t know what to do with them either. no thanks !
2026-05-19T04:22:39 < fenugrec> aright ! I found some places in US and Uk that collect + recycle them, but probably only large lots
2026-05-19T04:33:33 < englishman> Into the blue bin they go
2026-05-19T04:44:02 < fenugrec> yeah, they take the blue truck to the landfill instead of the green truck : )
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2026-05-19T07:38:33 < qyx> blue?
2026-05-19T07:38:52 < qyx> are you reversed in .ca?
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2026-05-19T10:48:52 < mercenary> With the pricing of the paid AI models going up, it is highly debatable if the tokenomics will work out :p
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2026-05-19T12:35:53 < karlp> blue is paper bin here. plastic is green.
2026-05-19T12:55:26 < jpa-> we use random colors
2026-05-19T12:56:03 < karlp> different in different communities/cities you mean?
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2026-05-19T13:37:35 < qyx> yeah same here, blue paper, yellow plastic
2026-05-19T13:40:54 < qyx> and green is glass
2026-05-19T13:43:40 < zyp> same; blue paper, yellow plastic, green glass, brown organic, black other
2026-05-19T13:44:58 < karlp> we don't have glass collection from homes, have to collect them and take them places.
2026-05-19T13:45:15 < karlp> just paper/plast/organic/other
2026-05-19T13:45:26 < karlp> it was an election issue "are we doing too much?!!#!"#!""
2026-05-19T13:49:07 < zyp> and yeah, this varies a lot between cities
2026-05-19T13:52:21 < qyx> wild, I have never seen other colors here, the only one varying is small electronic waste which is usually red
2026-05-19T13:56:53 < jpa-> karlp: no, different everywhere, no standard whatsoever
2026-05-19T13:57:12 < jpa-> biowaste is often brown or green but even that can vary
2026-05-19T13:59:14 < zyp> jpa-, so they're just not color coded? :p
2026-05-19T13:59:32 < zyp> here's my bins: https://photos.app.goo.gl/EEqzecPEsYk5Y1ot8
2026-05-19T13:59:54 < jpa-> zyp: well, they have different colors often, but no logic that you can trust :)
2026-05-19T14:03:29 < mrec> I hope thos bins are sorted by companies. Altera, Xilinx, Lattice, Gowin, Efinix
2026-05-19T14:03:48 < mrec> those*
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2026-05-19T16:03:49 < vampirefrog> howdy zyp
2026-05-19T16:05:51 < vampirefrog> I tried having claude reverse engineer a Blackmagic USB3.0 capture card but after about two days of grinding I gave up cause it can't figure it out
2026-05-19T16:06:07 < vampirefrog> it says I might need a $6000 hardware USB 3.0 sniffer
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2026-05-19T16:06:57 < vampirefrog> it's not important enough to do it manually either. it works fine on windows so that's fine if I'll ever even use it
2026-05-19T16:08:29 < qyx> is sdrstore.eu legit?
2026-05-19T16:09:49 < vampirefrog> looks like +31 is from the Netherlands qyx 
2026-05-19T16:12:54 < qyx> nothing more either https://www.sdrstore.eu/.well-known/security.txt
2026-05-19T16:15:05 < Steffanx> vampirefrog: it is, but 970 is a little shady IMHO. I don't think they are actually dutch
2026-05-19T16:16:43 < Steffanx> 0970 numbers are not meant for this.
2026-05-19T16:16:58 < qyx> what the hell there is a ton of different pluto sdr designs
2026-05-19T16:17:14 < Steffanx> It's meant for machine to machine or automated calls. 
2026-05-19T16:19:33 < catphish> those USRP don't look real :)
2026-05-19T16:20:28 < qyx> also too expensive
2026-05-19T16:21:34 < catphish> some of their proucts look like they might be legit, but they're selling copies under original Ettus product names so no way i'd trust them
2026-05-19T16:30:41 < jbo> what are we complaining about today?
2026-05-19T16:31:36 < qyx> about today
2026-05-19T16:31:46 < jbo> ah yeah fuck today, honestly
2026-05-19T16:32:30 < vampirefrog> does USB 3.0 work in such a way that it can't be properly captured in software?
2026-05-19T16:32:48 < vampirefrog> like, there's out of band DMA transfers or something?
2026-05-19T16:32:56 < zyp> not any more so than USB2
2026-05-19T16:34:16 < zyp> I'd expect usbmon-style host side capture (i.e. what wireshark can do) to work equally well for usb2 and usb3
2026-05-19T16:34:40 < vampirefrog> I used USBPcapCMD is that worse than Wireshark?
2026-05-19T16:35:21 < zyp> that sounds like the windows equivalent of usbmon
2026-05-19T16:35:45 < vampirefrog> I don't think it's a kernel driver
2026-05-19T16:36:18 < zyp> the limitation of that sort of host side capture is that it captures URBs and responses
2026-05-19T16:37:20 < zyp> which is useful if all you want is the USB traffic, but often too high level when you're debugging usb stack issues on usb2 devices, because it lacks individual packet information
2026-05-19T16:37:47 < zyp> if you've got a working device and is just reverse engineering the protocol, it should be sufficient
2026-05-19T16:38:32 < vampirefrog> the clanker was telling me the isoc packets were empty because they weren't logged
2026-05-19T16:38:59 < zyp> that could be
2026-05-19T16:39:19 < zyp> but that'd be a limitation of the logging facility
2026-05-19T16:39:29 < vampirefrog> so wireshark might log them?
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2026-05-19T16:42:05 < zyp> https://wiki.wireshark.org/CaptureSetup/USB#windows says wireshark uses usbpcap on windows, so it should behave the same as using usbpcap standalone
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2026-05-19T17:30:33 < vampirefrog> yeah that's what I figured too, thanks
2026-05-19T17:32:57 < fenugrec> I've had issues lolgging usb under Win (well, a win VM), it was just fragile
2026-05-19T17:33:02 < fenugrec> *logging, even
2026-05-19T17:36:55 < vampirefrog> oh yeah under a VM I couldn't even get the device to work properly
2026-05-19T17:37:07 < vampirefrog> like it's a capture card and the software would detect it but display a black canvas
2026-05-19T17:37:18 < vampirefrog> that would have made it much easier
2026-05-19T17:38:27 < fenugrec> yea usb3 under a vm is asking for trouble
2026-05-19T17:42:13 < vampirefrog> but in the meantime I found these cheap $30 USB 2.0 analyzers
2026-05-19T17:42:28 < vampirefrog> I can use one to reverse another device, when I'll have time and money
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2026-05-19T20:32:16 < catphish> vampirefrog: USB3 SS can definitely be captured in software, at least it works fine using wireshark on linux
2026-05-19T20:32:35 < catphish> i've never tried SS in a VM
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2026-05-19T21:47:25 < vampirefrog> well I need it to work on windows
2026-05-19T21:47:27 < vampirefrog> hmm or maybe on a mac
2026-05-19T21:47:39 < vampirefrog> maybe I can put together a hackintosh and reverse that driver instead
2026-05-19T21:51:03 < karlp> bugger, ordered two things from the same ali store to get them in one parcel,
2026-05-19T21:51:06 < karlp> they put them in two.
2026-05-19T21:51:13 < karlp> no point buying from the stame store then numbnuts
2026-05-19T22:16:31 < fantanYl> i once bought three appliances from same e-shop, so they will deliver them at once
2026-05-19T22:16:51 < fantanYl> it was back when I was still going to office daily
2026-05-19T22:16:59 < fantanYl> nope. three. separate. deliveries.
2026-05-19T22:17:26 < fantanYl> delivery company even managed to catastrophically damage the fridge.
2026-05-19T22:17:29 < fantanYl> twice :)
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2026-05-19T23:51:09 < specing> fantanYl: LOL.. we had same experience with an oven.. damaged twice
2026-05-19T23:51:39 < specing> probably all the appliances cost twice as much because all this back and forth can't be cheap
2026-05-19T23:52:01 < fantanYl> I'd expect cost goes after the shipping company which has beefy insurance for such cases
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--- Day changed ke touko 20 2026
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2026-05-20T00:39:41 < qyx> my new claude AI friend is being regularly killed by OOM killer
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2026-05-20T11:05:09 < qyx> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/7q0NS
2026-05-20T11:05:18 < qyx> it is starting to resemble devicetree
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2026-05-20T13:30:29 < karlp> well, found my first proper bugs in zephyr, not just not-implemented.
2026-05-20T13:31:48 < zyp> congrats
2026-05-20T13:32:44 < karlp> not really....
2026-05-20T13:35:24 < karlp> https://paste.jvnv.net/view/IbE9H
2026-05-20T13:39:03 < karlp> it's fucking octal parsing 
2026-05-20T13:39:10 < zyp> yeah, was about to say
2026-05-20T13:39:16 < zyp> 0 prefix tend to mean octal
2026-05-20T13:39:44 < karlp> it's a bit wonky, you can't use the output of the read to feed the write then.
2026-05-20T13:39:57 < karlp> and you can't use hexlified 010203040506 either...
2026-05-20T13:40:02 < karlp> meh
2026-05-20T13:40:10 < karlp> that was fucking tedioius.
2026-05-20T13:41:32 < karlp> it also means that you if you do write fa ce ba be, it just writes 0s no bother...
2026-05-20T13:41:52 < karlp> well, don't think that's a fight I want to argue with them on.
2026-05-20T13:42:02 < karlp> gonna call that a learning experience then I guess.
2026-05-20T13:42:05 < zyp> that just goes with the theme of zephyr failing silently and just doing the wrong thing
2026-05-20T13:42:35 < karlp> full steam ahead!
2026-05-20T13:42:49 < karlp> it's a lot of bang out of the box when it works though
2026-05-20T13:43:48 < zyp> yeah, that's the biggest problem
2026-05-20T13:44:09 < zyp> it'd be much easier to just not use zephyr if you didn't need what it provides
2026-05-20T13:44:36 < karlp> well, yes and no.  I'd gotten a lot of stuff working on this project, but zephyr's bringing a lot of "the rest" of the shit
2026-05-20T13:44:51 < karlp> and some of that means having options I never would have considered building myself.
2026-05-20T13:45:28 < zyp> I'm gonna get forced into using zephyr on a project simply because nrf70 is practically useless without
2026-05-20T13:46:00 < zyp> there's standalone drivers for wpa70, but they don't include the WPA stack
2026-05-20T13:46:05 < zyp> nrf70*
2026-05-20T13:55:19 < karlp> ok, fuck then, where was I actually...
2026-05-20T13:58:14 < karlp> rust crowd at it again: https://github.com/eclipse-mosquitto/mosquitto/issues/3652
2026-05-20T14:06:06 < zyp> hmm, would have liked to see performance comparisons as well
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2026-05-20T14:22:42 < qyx> so, h7
2026-05-20T14:22:50 < qyx> I guess my code is okay, somewhat
2026-05-20T14:23:00 < qyx> I can set sys_ck to HSE, but not to PLL1P
2026-05-20T14:23:06 < qyx> PLL1 is on and ready
2026-05-20T14:23:17 < qyx> hm, maybe the PLL1P is gated somewhere
2026-05-20T14:24:12 < qyx> oh of sourse
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2026-05-20T14:36:12 < karlp> zyp: doesn't matter. safe.
2026-05-20T14:36:15 < karlp> no more discussion.
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2026-05-20T15:12:58 < qyx> I lost the whole day trying to get h7 doing plls right
2026-05-20T15:29:34 < Steffanx> Didn't the claud help you?
2026-05-20T15:29:43 < Steffanx> +e
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2026-05-20T15:37:53 < karlp> hrm, fram corruption writing at 20Mhz.  should be good to 40.
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2026-05-20T18:48:08 < karlp> well, all my clock bits seem to tbe same, but zephyr usb doesn't work, but tinyusb does.
2026-05-20T18:48:23 < karlp> I wonder what the missing wonk is. must be somethinf fucking small
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2026-05-20T20:02:52 < qyx> my clocks are insane
2026-05-20T20:03:57 < qyx> idk who on earth designed clock tree registers on h7 (probably on others too)
2026-05-20T20:04:35 < qyx> there are 3 identical pll blocks but no, let's do registers that way it is hard to easily create 3 instances using the same code
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2026-05-20T20:40:03 < ColdKeyboard> Anyone have a rough estimate how much more expensive SMT will get if you have components on both sides vs single side?
2026-05-20T20:53:00 < mrec> how many components?
2026-05-20T20:53:24 < mrec> I do all my PCBs by myself
2026-05-20T20:53:54 < mrec> it depends on the SMT house, and of course how many components you have there, and if they need to put new components into the machine
2026-05-20T20:54:40 < mrec> I own a couple of machines (commercial and DIY), currently I only use my DIY machine
2026-05-20T21:04:16 < ColdKeyboard> I was thinking more generally if 100% is on the top vs ~70% top and 30% bottom
2026-05-20T21:08:06 < mrec> there are too many variables, how many pcbs, how many components. which assembly house (east or west)
2026-05-20T21:08:47 < mrec> nice .. just got magic smoke from a TI part ... I'm gifted to find all the garbage TI is selling
2026-05-20T21:09:46 < mrec> this time a power switch, last time a voltage regulator with high pitch noise
2026-05-20T21:11:26 < mrec> TPS2116DRLR = garbage
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2026-05-20T21:40:26 < jpa-> ColdKeyboard: for lightweight basic passives, the extra cost is not that much, but if both sides have heavy components it may need more care in the processing
2026-05-20T21:41:01 < jpa-> ColdKeyboard: i think most of the extra cost will come from the fact that the cheapest assembly services do not do double-sided at all, so you need to use the more expensive services
2026-05-20T21:41:28 < ColdKeyboard> jpa- Thanks. I was just considering placing passives for decoupling on the bottom side to free up routing space on the top
2026-05-20T21:42:23 < jpa-> pcbway assembly quote tool allows to compare the prices
2026-05-20T22:05:48 < qyx> mrec: whats garbage on tps2116? I planned to use it iirc
2026-05-20T22:06:58 < qyx> ohno that was a different one, for 36 V or so
2026-05-20T22:07:20 < qyx> but speaking of dual input switches, lm66200 is garbage
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2026-05-20T22:44:25 < mrec> well half of my circuit just blew up I also wonder why :-)
2026-05-20T22:44:35 < mrec> FPGA = dead, I will place a new one tomorrow
2026-05-20T22:45:26 < mrec> I'm not yet convinced that the TPS2116 is fine but I will see tomorrow
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2026-05-20T23:27:24 < zyp> ColdKeyboard, at jlc, expect on the order of $50 more NRE
2026-05-20T23:29:30 < zyp> IIRC economic PCBA is like $8, standard single sided PCBA is $25+stencil, standard double sided is $50+stencil, and the stencil charge is a few dollars so you can just round the difference to $25 per side of standard PCBA
2026-05-20T23:29:38 < zyp> economic PCBA is always single sided
2026-05-20T23:30:41 < zyp> if you already needed standard PCBA for other reasons, the other side is just $25 extra
2026-05-20T23:31:22 < zyp> and on the other hand, standard PCBA might add extra requirements wrt. panel size which might pull the total up
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2026-05-21T09:56:03 < mrec> tps2116 today it decided to stop switching over again unless I change a resistor. I think I better go with another part.
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2026-05-21T12:34:40 < karlp> even just using jlc, double sided is significantly more.
2026-05-21T12:40:52 < mrec> regarding the TPS2116, I will pick another part from another vendor. I really wonder about the poor quality of some TI parts. Last time with the voltage regulator issue and their EVB all the engineer was able to say oh really; Either their parts work (and then they will work properly) or they don't, and no need to trace further.
2026-05-21T12:42:01 < mrec> this part has several options, some other options probably work better.
2026-05-21T12:42:41 < mrec> by reading the datasheet someone could not even derive the circuit from the EVB.
2026-05-21T12:43:26 < mrec> forum posts give some extra information about some pins, that's just a no go.
2026-05-21T12:44:43 < mrec> and using this part in production with a magic circuit which is not documented I'm not sure if that's a good way to go.
2026-05-21T12:47:08 < qyx> what magic circuit?
2026-05-21T12:47:13 < qyx> I can see all pins documented
2026-05-21T12:48:39 < qyx> I do not accept "part doesn't work" or "sometimes work"
2026-05-21T12:48:43 < mrec> look at the ST pin
2026-05-21T12:49:02 < qyx> yes there is bq25756 which clearly sometimes doesn't work when not used at intended
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2026-05-21T12:49:24 < qyx> what's wrong with the ST pin? it is a normal open drain output status pin
2026-05-21T12:50:26 < mrec> I followed their circuit I need to add some extra load there to get it work, possibly pri pin
2026-05-21T12:50:47 < mrec> there's just not enough information in the datasheet for me :-)
2026-05-21T12:50:51 < qyx> which, according to the truth table, is deasserted when the primary input is energized
2026-05-21T12:51:22 < qyx> you mean R_ST?
2026-05-21T12:52:17 < mrec> https://i.snipboard.io/D0PnFR.jpg
2026-05-21T12:52:36 < mrec> caps are also there of course, however it doesn't work.
2026-05-21T12:54:57 < qyx> because you are not reading with understanding
2026-05-21T12:55:10 < qyx> there is no connetion between ST and PR1 in the datasheet
2026-05-21T12:55:32 < qyx> if you used some other TI parts, you would know there *may* be connection for some modes of operation
2026-05-21T12:55:33 < mrec> because their datasheet is garbage?
2026-05-21T12:55:38 < mrec> https://www.ti.com/lit/ug/slvubz0a/slvubz0a.pdf?ts=1779346654803&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.ti.com%252Ftool%252FTPS2116EVM
2026-05-21T12:55:43 < qyx> but the EVB clearly says you have to remove the jumper
2026-05-21T12:55:53 < qyx> there should be no connection to PR1
2026-05-21T12:55:59 < qyx> there should be a voltage divider only
2026-05-21T12:56:05 < qyx> their datasheet says the same as I see
2026-05-21T12:56:39 < qyx> as for the ST output, it is pretty clear it is an open drain output
2026-05-21T12:56:47 < qyx> from the picture, for example
2026-05-21T12:57:00 < qyx> also the truth table says what are its states
2026-05-21T12:57:01 < mrec> https://snipboard.io/iPxJyt.jpg
2026-05-21T12:57:55 < qyx> I can see those things, I can browse the internet
2026-05-21T12:58:00 < qyx> but I also see the rest of the EVB manual
2026-05-21T12:58:16 < qyx> table 6-1
2026-05-21T12:58:48 < qyx> which says the jumper must be set between 2-3, which is a 10k pullup on the ST pin
2026-05-21T12:59:15 < qyx> which is pretty obvious, otherwise the ST pin can't work
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2026-05-21T13:02:56 < mrec> if you look at MPS datasheets, they are just clearly structured. TI is not for me for sure.
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2026-05-21T13:03:51 < qyx> I have no issues with them
2026-05-21T13:04:31 < mrec> some parts are good this one nope, neither their shitty voltage regulators with audible noise.
2026-05-21T13:05:01 < mrec> not all of them, I'm using other parts which are fine too.
2026-05-21T13:05:21 < jpa-> PFM + ceramic caps with acoustic properties tend to imply audible noise
2026-05-21T13:05:50 < mrec> it strongly depends on the regulator not only on the inductor or caps.
2026-05-21T13:05:53 < qyx> it looks like your engineer is not engineering properly
2026-05-21T13:06:08 < qyx> of course it depends, it depends how the PFM is done
2026-05-21T13:06:15 < qyx> and jpa is totally right
2026-05-21T13:06:37 < jpa-> fully silent inductor & caps is unfortunately hard to find and costly
2026-05-21T13:06:43 < mrec> you might tell TI then to fix their EVB :-)
2026-05-21T13:06:54 < qyx> of course you can say a FPWM reg is quiet
2026-05-21T13:07:01 < jpa-> mrec: so the EVB doesn't work?
2026-05-21T13:07:16 < mrec> jpa-: the singing regulator was another issues some years ago.
2026-05-21T13:07:29 < mrec> I changed it with MPS parts and it was fine.
2026-05-21T13:07:47 < qyx> let me ask which TI part you replaced with which MPS part
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2026-05-21T13:09:01 < jpa-> mrec: so were they both PFM or both PWM?
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2026-05-21T13:15:10 < mrec> I'll try to look up the part later, I should have the other board around somewhere. I don't know what mode it was in it's a long time ago - but the more load it got the louder it was. Putting just a random MPS part in which met the specification fixed the problem.
2026-05-21T13:15:31 < mrec> and it happened with the TI evb directly too
2026-05-21T13:16:12 < mrec> TI and MPS are very aware of those audible noise issues on switching regulators actually; why TI dumped it to the market no one knows...
2026-05-21T13:17:31 < jpa-> it might be worth it to learn something from such cases :)
2026-05-21T13:17:41 < jpa-> instead of just randomly switching parts
2026-05-21T13:18:20 < mrec> I tried to contact TI and got no meaningful reply and for that particular part there was no option to avoid that
2026-05-21T13:19:37 < mrec> TI has various pdfs about this issue online, I'm not focussing on switchers they just have to work (I'm focussing on other parts).
2026-05-21T13:20:10 < qyx> lol
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2026-05-21T13:21:06 < mrec> "ti audible noise voltage regulator" there's enough documentation out there... well the parts just need to be tested before using them.
2026-05-21T13:21:51 < mrec> https://www.ti.com/lit/an/slva890/slva890.pdf?ts=1779340732143
2026-05-21T13:22:12 < mrec> (mine was not an LNB part)
2026-05-21T13:23:20 < mrec> https://i.snipboard.io/qWbFn5.jpg
2026-05-21T13:23:41 < mrec> I had a similar output like this (it's a long time ago ... don't know the details anymore)
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2026-05-21T13:24:25 < qyx> excuse me, what?
2026-05-21T13:24:40 < qyx> it is like saying "oh I specialize on microcontrollers, fuck ADCs, they have to just work"
2026-05-21T13:24:43 < qyx> two days later
2026-05-21T13:25:11 < qyx> "my ADC outputs 90% of the correct voltage, it is wrong, TI is wrong, Analog is wrong, fuck their ADC, trash that shit"
2026-05-21T13:25:52 < qyx> there is some theory of switching regulators and their aux components and you are selecting parts depending on the requirements
2026-05-21T13:25:58 < mrec> well try to abstract a bit, TI is aware audible noise issues with regulators and addressing it accordingly with some parts
2026-05-21T13:26:25 < qyx> all EEs should be aware because it is their inherent feature
2026-05-21T13:26:37 < qyx> you are selecting switchers based on some requirements
2026-05-21T13:26:59 < mrec> did you never experience audible noise?
2026-05-21T13:27:06 < qyx> is your requirement a super low power in idle? you probably need fpwm
2026-05-21T13:27:42 < qyx> sorry PFM
2026-05-21T13:27:56 < qyx> if you filter vregs with Iq < 50 uA, nearly all of them will be PFM
2026-05-21T13:28:06 < qyx> of course a PFM vreg is gonna sing
2026-05-21T13:28:12 < qyx> it is a fact
2026-05-21T13:28:16 < mrec> some of them allow to switch the mode, it didn't matter for that particular part as far as I remember
2026-05-21T13:28:28 < qyx> any PFM vreg is gonna sing
2026-05-21T13:28:31 < mrec> it's an older part a few years ago
2026-05-21T13:28:41 < qyx> yes, but if you switch the mode, you don't have low Iq anymore
2026-05-21T13:29:02 < qyx> if you need both of them, you have to select carefully
2026-05-21T13:29:15 < mrec> and as far as I remember some switch automatically
2026-05-21T13:29:24 < qyx> "oh their evb has just 10u 0603 cap on the output, for 5 V"
2026-05-21T13:29:28 < qyx> yes, because fucking economics
2026-05-21T13:29:33 < qyx> and size
2026-05-21T13:29:43 < qyx> no you are not gonna use 10u 0603 to filter the output
2026-05-21T13:29:54 < qyx> "but but evb has them"
2026-05-21T13:29:59 < qyx> fuck evb, do the right thing
2026-05-21T13:30:50 < qyx> if you need a quiet vreg, you *have* to use something not going under 20kHz
2026-05-21T13:30:52 < mrec> if you're up to it like TI, not documenting all the options clearly in the datasheet you can end up like that. Again compare MPS datasheets with that, you want to select a regulator for your application go through it and you can focus on the other things again
2026-05-21T13:31:47 < qyx> oh well, anyway
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2026-05-21T13:38:45 < mrec> https://www.ti.com/tool/TPS565208EVM-858
2026-05-21T13:38:55 < mrec> that was the board with audible noise back then.
2026-05-21T13:43:05 < mrec> MP1476 was the replacement which fixed the noise
2026-05-21T13:45:22 < jpa-> indeed weird to get audible noise from such a part
2026-05-21T13:45:23 < mrec> that was the board with audible noise back then. And I don't think it's a PFM / PWM issue only there's more behind that
2026-05-21T13:46:16 < jpa-> it should be well above audible freqs unless there is control loop oscillation or some other misbehavior like that
2026-05-21T13:46:46 < mrec> if you talk with the power engineers they can tell you a lot more about it.
2026-05-21T13:47:43 < mrec> MPS has better support than TI in that area, they will get back to you within a few days and discuss the problem and how to fix it for your application
2026-05-21T13:47:50 < jpa-> https://e2e.ti.com/support/power-management-group/power-management/f/power-management-forum/875390/tps565208evm-858-audible-noise-of-the-tps65208evm  is this you? :)
2026-05-21T13:48:01 < qyx> I am sorry mrec, I found your TI thread, that's not how proper debugging work. Oyu have been asked multiple times for the waveforms. The TI guy is completely right about what he says and asks.
2026-05-21T13:48:19 < qyx> jpa-: found the same
2026-05-21T13:48:30 < mrec> probably a long time ago :-)
2026-05-21T13:48:42 < mrec> 6 years ago
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2026-05-21T13:49:10 < qyx> I would say you have some funsamental issue with your test setup
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2026-05-21T13:49:21 < jpa-> i would have wondered about the input capacitance, considering the EVB doesn't have much bulk capacitance on input - so if you have long wires or crappy supply, it could end up in some weird oscillation
2026-05-21T13:49:32 < qyx> yeah
2026-05-21T13:49:55 < mrec> during that time I was in Taiwan (not permanently) now things changed.
2026-05-21T13:50:23 < mrec> getting the MPS part dropping it in and it was silent.
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2026-05-21T13:53:55 < qyx> jpa-: anyway, jbo made another board with our beloved switcher and it works again, I see that as a betray
2026-05-21T13:54:03 < qyx> probably our GaNs is the culprit
2026-05-21T13:54:14 < qyx> I am almost tempting to try it once again with proper old mosfets
2026-05-21T13:55:18 < jpa-> yeah, well TI forum posts did say it wouldn't work with GaNs :D
2026-05-21T13:55:42 < jpa-> probably it overloads the gate voltage regulator or drivers
2026-05-21T13:55:44 < zyp> maybe try SiCs next time
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2026-05-21T15:23:08 < jpa-> meh, stupid bug of the day that i wasted 4 hours on: UI code was overwriting all setting registers instead of only the ones it understands
2026-05-21T15:23:34 < jpa-> so all the defaults i set in initialization were overwritten with zeros
2026-05-21T15:26:03 < jpa-> so simple in retrospect but it was testing with a fully assembled device which has no debugger port.. and doing stuff like checking the register values after init "sure, yeah, the value is there, why isn't it doing anything"
2026-05-21T15:26:22 < fantanYl> if you had memory protection, this wouldn't happen
2026-05-21T15:26:49 < jpa-> it would, considering the UI is supposed to write to those registers (well, in this software design it is)
2026-05-21T15:27:27 < jpa-> basically the UI did  memcpy((void*)CONTROL_REG_BASE, configstruct, sizeof(configstruct))
2026-05-21T15:28:17 < jpa-> i was expecting it to just write a single register each time some UI action was done
2026-05-21T15:28:38 < fantanYl> maybe, it still wouldn't
2026-05-21T15:28:55 < fantanYl> because registers would be in different protection domain you'd have to call somehow to
2026-05-21T15:29:08 < fantanYl> there, it could reveal that you are doing wrong thing.
2026-05-21T15:29:23 < fantanYl> it usually reveals as "d'oh, sooo many API functions"
2026-05-21T15:29:41 < fantanYl> fun fact is that Zephyr driver API is like.... 99% compatible with CMRX RPC
2026-05-21T15:30:12 < fantanYl> it even seems that drivers use almost none of Zephyr's own API except of devicetree API
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2026-05-21T21:32:00 < qyx> chasing a software bug, my rs485 no worky
2026-05-21T21:32:59 < qyx> invoking all nordic gods and cursing who the hell wrote all my codez
2026-05-21T21:33:24 < qyx> then continuing with rs485 being rs485, why on earth we are using this shits
2026-05-21T21:33:30 < qyx> finally grabbed my scope
2026-05-21T21:33:46 < qyx> not even trying to determine which wire is A and B
2026-05-21T21:33:57 < qyx> scoping receiver output on the transceiver, nothing
2026-05-21T21:34:12 < qyx> looking up THVD1450 datasheet to check if I am scoping the right pin, yes
2026-05-21T21:34:21 < qyx> nothing there, the chip is just dead
2026-05-21T21:34:39 < qyx> checking if it is not rotated, nope, but noticed something other
2026-05-21T21:34:56 < qyx> why the hell is there a MCP2562 instead of THVD1450?
2026-05-21T21:35:51 < qyx> sending Thor back where he came from, grabbing hotair..
2026-05-21T21:36:40 < mrec> surprisingly with that part I don't have problems :-) I also use the THVD1450
2026-05-21T21:37:11 < mrec> but the THVD1451 was missing in the last order :-(
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2026-05-21T22:19:21 < qyx> ok works, software was good all the time
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2026-05-22T00:00:08 < catphish> i need more elctronic design work, i wonder where to find it
2026-05-22T00:02:40 < antto> catphish, make me a "y = x/(p + abs(f(x)))" analog distortion circuit where f() is a filter
2026-05-22T00:03:16 < antto> and p is an adjustable DC offset
2026-05-22T00:05:08 < catphish> any filter in particular?
2026-05-22T00:08:36 < catphish> did i mention i will want paying for this work?
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2026-05-22T01:00:02 < Steffanx> I'm sure antto will pay you some gratitude
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2026-05-22T01:49:51 < karlp> man, kinetis is a gift that never stops :) https://github.com/zephyrproject-rtos/zephyr/blob/main/dts/arm/nxp/kinetis/nxp_k6x.dtsi#L37-L45
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2026-05-22T02:20:57 < karlp> fucking, never press ctrl-c whiel git rebase is working...
2026-05-22T02:21:05 < karlp> let it fail, and use git rebase --abort instead.
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2026-05-22T08:04:46 < antto> catphish, simple RC lowpass
2026-05-22T08:05:03 < antto> i mean first-order, but with adjustable cutoff
2026-05-22T08:05:48 < antto> paying? i thought you wanted work ;P~
2026-05-22T08:06:34 < antto> i could pay you a percentage of the money i make from music
2026-05-22T08:06:48 < antto> that is, a percentage from 0 ;P~
2026-05-22T08:07:29 < antto> the above is for music, if it wasn't obvious, who else would want to distort a signal
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2026-05-22T12:14:26 < mercenary> catphish: don't we all
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2026-05-22T13:23:32 < karlp> weird, zephyr net demos all use 192.0/24 ips, for ... no idea? https://whois.arin.net/rest/nets;q=192.0.0.0?showDetails=true&showARIN=true
2026-05-22T13:24:16 < karlp> ah no.
2026-05-22T13:24:23 < karlp> I didn't go fine grained enough
2026-05-22T13:24:30 < karlp> they're using 192.0.2/24, 
2026-05-22T13:24:46 < karlp> which is " Documentation (TEST-NET-1)" so that's ok I guess.
2026-05-22T13:24:48 < karlp> just... odd.
2026-05-22T13:24:57 < karlp> fine.
2026-05-22T13:25:09 < karlp> I mean, these demos -work_ just fine out of the box....
2026-05-22T13:25:38 < karlp> rfc even says they're not for local use and filters to drop and block them should be used anda ppyl locally too.
2026-05-22T13:25:51 < karlp> ok. enough of that.
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2026-05-22T15:04:24 < jpa-> "1) You agree that you will not use the Software or Material for any purpose that is unlawful or illegal."   are there legal unlawful activities?
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2026-05-22T15:19:13 < mercenary> legal representatives can certainly partake in unlawful activities
2026-05-22T15:31:56 < zyp> not legally
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2026-05-22T16:42:21 < catphish> jpa-: i would say yes. unlawful in quite a broad term that covers all manner of things including criminality, but also most notably civil tort. illegal is generally a more specific term usually referring only to violation of criminal statute
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2026-05-22T20:00:25 < mawk> illicite et illégal 
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2026-05-23T09:37:56 < mrec> so nice revision one of my FPGA STM32 combo works properly (only the USB switchover needs to be checked again).
2026-05-23T09:39:10 < mrec> now I just need to wait for the THVD1451
2026-05-23T10:27:51 < mrec> Ethernet also works well nice
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2026-05-23T23:56:17 < karlp> great feeling :)
--- Day changed su touko 24 2026
2026-05-24T00:04:59 < zyp> mrec, what are you making?
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2026-05-24T00:19:46 < mrec> Mitsubishi CNC ethernet controller.
2026-05-24T00:20:39 < mrec> I spotted an old CNC in Taiwan and reverse engineered the electrical communication protocol between the servos and IO boards
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2026-05-24T00:21:15 < mrec> the original controller is 25 years old and failed 3 times in a row, the settings are stored in a battery backed sram
2026-05-24T00:22:12 < mrec> everytime it failed I had to drive to Mitsubishi to get the system options back in, also recovering all the settings is just annoying.
2026-05-24T00:23:26 < mrec> and look ahead of the old system isn't good, I wired it up with LinuxCNC it's much smoother now
2026-05-24T00:24:31 < mrec> this machine has 7 tons, I also spotted a CNC lathe with this old controller it's the next item on the list
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2026-05-24T00:27:10 < mrec> putting in g-code into the old system was soso... I found an ethernet adapter it would pull the data via 10mbit ethernet link but look ahead still slows down the path movement (yet it is very impressive compared with competitive machines from back then, nowadays of course completely outdated)
2026-05-24T00:32:35 < mrec> next week my PCI-Express devices will arive too, I have quite a bunch of new devices upcoming.
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2026-05-24T00:41:10 < mrec> the CNC still needs 2-3 more mechanical fixes but then it's fine, in order to get the backlash down to initial system default it needs a new Y ballscrew; the spindle needs to be reground or replaced (it's belt driven, so that part is not that expensive). A new machine that size would cost over 100k USD; LinuxCNC adds 5 axis capabilities as well to a dinosaur which was only meant to handle 3 axis
2026-05-24T00:41:54 < mrec> the original controller was the bottleneck which basically made any further investment into that machine obsolete.
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2026-05-24T01:27:06 < zyp> ah, you've been talking about this in the EO discord, right?
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2026-05-24T03:37:11 < mrec> yes
2026-05-24T03:37:26 < mrec> I'm in the final stage here.
2026-05-24T03:38:21 < mrec> the power mux is just for configuring the IP address of the system via USB-C / cellphone; I'll rework that one next week
2026-05-24T03:39:10 < mrec> I don't want to use wifi on that machine the electrical environment is "dirty" wifi totally drops sometimes
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2026-05-24T10:27:41 < machinehum> mrec: Gcode commands were fed one by one over 10MB ethernet?
2026-05-24T10:27:58 < machinehum> Mb*
2026-05-24T10:29:25 < machinehum> https://old.reddit.com/r/hacking/comments/1tiv03z/the_open_source_usb_drive_built_for_privacy/ Seems like people are interested in my shit.
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2026-05-24T10:57:46 < jpa-> machinehum: so does it or does it not react to unlock.txt if the password is wrong? You say "If it's wrong you get junk data." but then it is easy to tell that it is a phantomdrive if you just know of the existence of such a project
2026-05-24T10:58:33 < jpa-> also not being able to change the password without re-encryption is quite lame
2026-05-24T10:59:28 < jpa-> with separately encrypted key block you could also have quick secure erase by erasing the keys
2026-05-24T11:55:57 < mrec> machinehum: no. gcode is handled via linuxcnc
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2026-05-24T15:00:39 < machinehum> jpa-: It will unlock if the password is wrong, it derives the wrong key.
2026-05-24T15:01:03 < machinehum> I don't want to keep metadata on the disk
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2026-05-24T16:22:43 < catphish> machinehum: i have 2 questions about that USB drive. 1) Assuming the "public" partition is just normal mass storage, how do you detect the "unlock.txt" and "not* write it to flash? 2) Once a password is entered, do you fully disconnect the USB device from the host and reconnect it to allow the host to discover the extra partition?
2026-05-24T16:30:30 < catphish> oh, you just scrub out "password:xxxxxxxxxxxx" from all writes without worrying about the context, so the file *is* written but the password is not
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2026-05-24T17:36:47 < machinehum> catphish: yes
2026-05-24T17:37:08 < machinehum> Well actually I've never seen the file actually written. The drive to to quick to change states
2026-05-24T17:37:30 < machinehum> There is no disconnect and reconnect required
2026-05-24T18:11:18 < infisc> https://www.vishay.com/en/product/60157/
2026-05-24T18:33:09 < catphish> machinehum: so you inform the OS of a partitiokn table change somehow as soon as you see the password, and that causes the metadata never to be written?
2026-05-24T18:37:42 < machinehum> catphish: There isn't a partition table change, sometimes I call them two seperate partitions but that's wrong. It's two seperate blocks of data with two GPTs. On the device side once it snoops the password it disables and re-enables the USB peripheral
2026-05-24T18:38:06 < machinehum> https://pastebin.com/raw/Zy2Nj7Nt
2026-05-24T18:38:15 < catphish> machinehum: sorry, that's what i meant when i asked if it triggered a disconnect and reconnect
2026-05-24T18:38:51 < catphish> so the original drive just disapears and is replaced by the new one
2026-05-24T18:39:01 < machinehum> Yeah exactly
2026-05-24T18:39:24 < machinehum> I still need to test it on Windows/OSX
2026-05-24T18:39:30 < machinehum> But I think it should be fine
2026-05-24T18:39:57 < catphish> the only risk i see is corrupting the FAT32 by disconnecting half way through a write every time
2026-05-24T18:40:49 < catphish> and this is CH569 right?
2026-05-24T18:42:01 < machinehum> Yes
2026-05-24T18:42:28 < machinehum> Getting 20MB/s reads and... 5-6MB/s writes
2026-05-24T18:42:37 < machinehum> Measured with f3write
2026-05-24T18:51:33 < catphish> that's quite slow :)
2026-05-24T19:01:25 < machinehum> Yeah I'm aware
2026-05-24T19:01:55 < machinehum> I'm happy if I can get 20Mb/s for read/write
2026-05-24T19:09:23 < catphish> i just had an absolutely massive idea for a product - i'd better get designing
2026-05-24T19:11:13 < machinehum> catphish: What's the idea
2026-05-24T19:18:17 < catphish> at its simplest, a good quality USB connected DAC and ADC, and associated software to be used as test equipment, not measurement devices like oscilloscopes, but more like something you can use to emulate other things in a signal chain for testing
2026-05-24T19:21:18 < catphish> NI PXI / labview is the best example of this that i'm aware of that already exists
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2026-05-24T19:47:56 < machinehum> https://labjack.com/
2026-05-24T19:47:58 < machinehum> I like that
2026-05-24T19:48:09 < machinehum> Typically I hate NI shit but it has it's place
2026-05-24T19:48:35 < machinehum> Labjack is a "prosumer" product
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2026-05-24T19:56:51 < catphish> labjack looks interesting, too, they seem more geared towards long term data collection
2026-05-24T20:09:06 < machinehum> Not really
2026-05-24T20:09:24 < machinehum> To do that you need a SBC or something hooked up to it
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2026-05-24T20:49:15 < catphish> anyway i guess there's use cases for high and low speed sampling so best to do both
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2026-05-24T23:47:02 < qyx> catphish: beet to do one of them and do it great
2026-05-24T23:50:08 < qyx> NI doesn't have any truly low power solution, together with the requirement of running windows on premise (well, yeah, you could do without) it rules out any serious scientific remote data logging
2026-05-24T23:50:55 < qyx> of course I don't consider 10 W low power
2026-05-24T23:50:57 < qyx> they do
2026-05-24T23:53:16 < qyx> and that's the reason researchers are ardweening devboards and raspberries and other fruit to do the thing
2026-05-24T23:53:27 < qyx> in tupperware
--- Day changed ma touko 25 2026
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2026-05-25T00:57:51 < catphish> qyx: i have a contract that involves the NI stuff. it's just so bulky and expensive though, i'd be interested to see if many of the same things can be done with USB and a laptop
2026-05-25T00:58:34 < ventyl> can
2026-05-25T00:58:41 < qyx> all things we were doing, yes
2026-05-25T00:58:54 < qyx> some high end research, no
2026-05-25T00:59:21 < ventyl> how many NI users do "high end research"? 2%?
2026-05-25T00:59:24 < qyx> (time sync problematic, for example)
2026-05-25T01:00:44 < qyx> and it is bulky because, well, they are precise components, some of them
2026-05-25T01:01:28 < qyx> but true, you can probably to all cdaq use cases over usb
2026-05-25T01:01:44 < qyx> crio is practically cdaq+sbc+fpga
2026-05-25T01:03:03 < qyx> and pxi stuff, nobody at work was using pxi features you would lost with usb
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2026-05-25T02:01:19 < catphish> yeah my feeling is that the PXI is being used for convenience of labview, not for its actual high end features
2026-05-25T02:46:11 < karlp> who was infisc?
2026-05-25T02:46:20 < karlp> those thermawicks are interesting products
2026-05-25T02:48:10 < karlp> I hope I never need them :)
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2026-05-25T08:51:13 < inca> catphish: USB is okay for quick tests. test fixtures that run 24/7 need higher reliability interfaces like Ethernet.
2026-05-25T09:19:15 < jpa-> it's weird how USB in theory should be just as robust as ethernet, but in practice it doesn't seem to be
2026-05-25T09:23:08 < mrec> nah you have no magnetics with usb
2026-05-25T09:24:40 < mrec> shield and ground are often directly coupled together with usb devices, in the ethernet world they're usually separate
2026-05-25T09:27:30 < mrec> also ethernet has two pairs 4 wires RX/TX are differential, while USB 2.0 only has two wires for RX/TX. USB 1.1 is more or less TTL
2026-05-25T09:27:48 < mrec> USB 3.0 is different of course but still no magnetics there not for long distance
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2026-05-25T09:37:13 < jpa-> true for long distance, but for stuff that'd you'd have in a single power domain the normal differential receivers should be good enough
2026-05-25T09:37:28 < jpa-> and USB isolators or USB-over-fiber are somehow still not very reliable either
2026-05-25T09:40:16 < mrec> well ethernet doesn't play with a signle power domain usually
2026-05-25T09:40:20 < mrec> single*
2026-05-25T09:41:42 < jpa-> i mean, for me, usb devices that have like 1 meter of cable have issues every now and then
2026-05-25T09:42:26 < jpa-> while ethernet rarely even drops a packet, let alone connection, let alone requiring manual disconnect and reconnect
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2026-05-25T09:43:53 < mrec> I run my pick and place machine and camera via USB, I'd prefer ethernet but well it works as it is and I have other things to do.
2026-05-25T09:44:40 < mrec> I just had to take care about proper grounding, otherwise it would pass out too
2026-05-25T09:46:30 < mrec> I never have issues with regular USB 2 devices, USB 3.0 I don't have too many
2026-05-25T09:48:52 < jpa-> i guess many of my problems are with crappy devices though.. especially crystalless USB seems to be a pain
2026-05-25T09:49:59 < mrec> I'm throwing away cheap cables after 2-3 years usually not sure what Taiwan is doing to them but they seem to corrode somehow
2026-05-25T09:50:15 < jpa-> and in our hacklab CNC, the camera near the spindle sometimes drops out when the spindle starts, even though they both have shielded cables and all the metal structures are grounded
2026-05-25T09:51:04 < mrec> check the shield connection and how it's shielded
2026-05-25T09:51:13 < mrec> I had that issue with my pick and place machine until I fixed that
2026-05-25T09:51:31 < jpa-> what kind of problem do you have in mind?
2026-05-25T09:52:00 < mrec> I had to wire up the shielding with the source and the target, before I only wired it up with the source
2026-05-25T09:52:50 < jpa-> yeah, the camera is bus powered.. I would assume it has shield connected at both ends but I admit I haven't checked because it is sealed
2026-05-25T09:53:10 < mrec> the camera is connected to a USB hub here
2026-05-25T09:53:35 < jpa-> it could also be some kind of fun ground loop issue, considering i'm grounding things many ways and the PC is grounded through mains also
2026-05-25T09:53:36 < mrec> in a metal enclosure
2026-05-25T09:54:10 < jpa-> apparently some kind of filters on the VFD connections would be recommended
2026-05-25T09:54:56 < mrec> I was surprised on the large CNC I'm working with my initial prototype was a lumped / stacked together version of EVBs and it just worked fine.
2026-05-25T09:55:14 < mrec> Until I added SPI next to the differential lines then I gave up and designed a proper PCB
2026-05-25T09:56:35 < mrec> the SPI option almost killed the relays due to signal issues
2026-05-25T09:57:04 < mrec> swithing everything very fast. That issue is gone with the dedicated PCB
2026-05-25T09:57:15 < mrec> switching*
2026-05-25T09:57:38 < jpa-> the first machine i tried with started having internal PCIe bus errors as soon as I enabled PWM output from the mesa card
2026-05-25T09:57:54 < jpa-> fast edges to a 1 meter cable were too much
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2026-05-25T11:30:36 < qyx> why wouldn't ethernet play with a single power domain
2026-05-25T11:30:51 < qyx> I am using cap-coupled ethernet exactly with that
2026-05-25T11:31:46 < qyx> today I am half dead, i should prepare some work for my AI friend
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2026-05-25T11:41:35 < mrec> a single power domain is the easiest case
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2026-05-25T16:43:17 < catphish> i want to get 100,000 youtube subscribers so i can get one of those silver plaques!
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2026-05-25T21:51:20 < Steffanx> I want a million subscribers.
2026-05-25T21:51:39 < catphish> how many do you have? :)
2026-05-25T21:53:49 < Steffanx> 2
2026-05-25T21:54:50 < Steffanx> How many public videos does it have? 
2026-05-25T21:54:52 < Steffanx> 0
2026-05-25T21:55:19 < Steffanx> But that's irrelevant. I want to be the first with 1M subscribers and 0 videos
2026-05-25T21:55:57 < Steffanx> (assuming no one did that yet)
2026-05-25T22:14:51 < catphish> thay would be quite impressive
2026-05-25T22:14:54 < catphish> *that
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2026-05-25T22:24:52 < antto> Steffanx, upload one viral video, wait until 999998 more subscribers come, then delete the video, job done
2026-05-25T22:27:27 < catphish> i have 55,000 to 100,000 isn't implausible
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2026-05-26T07:30:24 < antto> in pootube?
2026-05-26T07:31:19 < antto> i have 200, wut?! who are all these and why are they eyeballing me
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2026-05-26T10:00:12 < machinehum> 100k subs you get a sliver plaque?
2026-05-26T10:03:35 < qyx> more like plague
2026-05-26T10:24:33 < catphish> machinehum: yes
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2026-05-26T21:36:15 < machinehum> I am 14% the way 
2026-05-26T21:36:23 < machinehum> We are so there baby
2026-05-26T22:23:51 < specing> you have 14k subs? Wow
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2026-05-26T22:41:07 < jpa-> 14k subs on onlyfans must bring some serious money
2026-05-26T22:47:22 < antto> i was thinking to suggest "expose your b00bs more" but i decided not to ;P~
2026-05-26T22:49:29 < antto> i think he needs the silver, to melt it down and use it for PCB surface finish
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2026-05-26T23:20:47 < machinehum> jpa-: You wouldn't believe the uptick after the big hog reveal
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2026-05-27T03:52:13 < catphish> i don't think i'd like this big hog reveal
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2026-05-27T13:24:48 < Laurenceb_> calling lunix pros
2026-05-27T13:24:59 < Laurenceb_> anyone here ever installed kiwiirc on a server?
2026-05-27T13:25:19 < Laurenceb_> L_WARN No server engines configured
2026-05-27T13:29:47 < qyx> no
2026-05-27T13:44:55 < jpa-> professional irc client installer needed
2026-05-27T14:57:47 < karlp> big hog reveal?
2026-05-27T15:07:06 < Laurenceb_> heh
2026-05-27T15:07:15 < Laurenceb_> looks like a 502 error from nginx
2026-05-27T15:08:13 < Laurenceb_> myserver.local/webirc/kiwiirc/info?t=1779883657588
2026-05-27T15:08:29 < Laurenceb_> when I try to connect in kiwiirc
2026-05-27T15:09:53 < Laurenceb_> L_WARN No server engines configured
2026-05-27T15:10:02 < Laurenceb_> probably not a good message from kiwiirc server
2026-05-27T15:13:30 < Laurenceb_> I'm going to try "the lounge" instead
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2026-05-27T15:44:38 < jpa-> https://github.com/zephyrproject-rtos/zephyr/issues/58103    such quality, upload a too large image and the supposedly fail-safe upgrade is stuck
2026-05-27T15:45:03 < jpa-> and their only fix was to avoid building too large images.. sure, that's nice, but what happened to fail safe :D
2026-05-27T15:46:26 < zyp> I hate the whole swap thing
2026-05-27T15:48:33 < zyp> especially when having the secondary on external flash
2026-05-27T15:49:49 < zyp> also wish hardware bank swapping were more common
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2026-05-27T17:40:23 < qyx> a tough one for you: how to catch ctrl+tab on a console
2026-05-27T17:42:50 < infisc> you can't, the OS catches it first
2026-05-27T17:44:42 < mercenary> ctrl+i gives tab. therefore, ctrl+tab should give i.
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2026-05-27T18:50:26 < qyx> both wrong
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2026-05-27T19:12:22 < ColdKeyboard> Do you have to place 100nF on USB3 TX when it's going from IC-to-IC on the same board?
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2026-05-27T19:37:32 < zyp> yes
2026-05-27T19:37:37 < zyp> (probably)
2026-05-27T19:38:03 < zyp> the receiver might require a different common-mode voltage from the transmitter
2026-05-27T19:44:54 < ColdKeyboard> Even if they are the same IC? For example I have 4 port USB Hub IC. I'm using three of them to build a larger hub. One is "master" and connected directly to the USB connector. That one has caps on TX. But the other two IC are connected to port 1/2 of the "master" hub but they are an identical IC
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2026-05-27T19:45:24 < ColdKeyboard> Should the TX caps then be closer to the "master" IC or the "slave" IC?
2026-05-27T19:46:08 < zyp> they're TX caps, so they belong at the TX end :p
2026-05-27T19:46:17 < zyp> but probably doesn't matter
2026-05-27T19:47:05 < zyp> and yes, even in a single chip, the transmitter might be using a different common mode voltage than the receiver
2026-05-27T19:48:13 < ColdKeyboard> Got it. Thanks! :)
2026-05-27T19:49:00 < zyp> IIRC some other part (not USB, but similar) I was looking at recently had the receivers biased to 1.8V and the transmitters biased to 2.5V or the other way around
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2026-05-27T19:52:57 < ColdKeyboard> Ok, that might explain why Microchip USB IC is recommending placing DC blocking caps on both TX and RX pins...
2026-05-27T19:53:48 < ColdKeyboard> But this is for the "connector"...
2026-05-27T19:54:05 < ColdKeyboard> I guess for the ic-to-ic connection... I'll place them somewhere in the middle and hope it works :)
2026-05-27T19:54:27 < zyp> IIRC USB-C spec mandates AC coupling both tx/rx
2026-05-27T19:54:41 < zyp> it'll be fine :)
2026-05-27T19:58:27 < ColdKeyboard> I mean, this is probably the lowest on the list of "Why it might not work when I get the board" :)
2026-05-27T20:08:08 < catphish> zyp: i've never seen AC coupling on RX, it's just assumed tha tthe TX end will do it
2026-05-27T20:08:45 < catphish> though maybe i'm not thinking of USB C
2026-05-27T20:10:41 < zyp> I might misremember, it's probably over a decade since I read this
2026-05-27T20:13:21 < zyp> as per current usb-c spec, AC coupling caps are required on TX and optional on RX
2026-05-27T20:52:52 < ColdKeyboard> You are allowed to swap + and - on the RX/TX pair. But are you allowed to swap TX/RX pairs?
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2026-05-27T20:53:06 < ColdKeyboard> I know some hub ICs allow you to do this but is this part of the spec or custom to each hub?
2026-05-27T20:57:42 < zyp> not in general, no
2026-05-27T21:10:10 < ColdKeyboard> It's "weird" that the hub IC requires Tx->TX Rx->Rx connection for the down-stream port but then for the upstream it's Tx->Tx, Rx->Rx... then when you are chaining multiple ICs, you might shoot yourself in the foot because they don't specify should you still follow this rule or not :)
2026-05-27T21:24:10 < catphish> ColdKeyboard: no, you can't swap TX and RX
2026-05-27T21:25:24 < catphish> ColdKeyboard: i've never heard of the receiver pin being called TX, that would be absurdly confusing, but i've never dealt with hubs
2026-05-27T21:34:11 < qyx> catphish: cough cough, CAN transeiver raises its hand
2026-05-27T21:35:22 < qyx> also, I just discovered puzzle
2026-05-27T21:37:03 < zyp> I discovered recently that the «pcie over A-A USB3 cables» bullshit are running the data lanes in reverse vs actual USB3 pinout
2026-05-27T21:37:44 < qyx> I was sitting on my butt, dealing with shit etc, and I came to a great solution for my (yet) nonexisting problem of putting 2 or 4 narrower cards (52 mm, 28 mm) in a 100 mm slot
2026-05-27T21:37:45 < zyp> so you can't (easily) make a port that's usable for both
2026-05-27T21:38:45 < qyx> I can make puzzles in their side rails
2026-05-27T21:39:28 < qyx> so I can puzzle two 28 mm cards together to get 52 mm, or two 52 mm together to get 100 mm
2026-05-27T21:39:40 < qyx> or four 28 mm to get 100 mm
2026-05-27T22:03:41 < zyp> haha
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2026-05-27T22:06:44 < zyp> just so I'm not misunderstanding; this is subrack stuff, right?
2026-05-27T22:08:02 < zyp> I assume you won't have actual 52mm/28mm racks as well, just want modular utilization of 100mm slots?
2026-05-27T22:10:59 < zyp> do you have four evenly spaced backplane connectors with identical pinouts? seems inefficient for full height cards
2026-05-27T22:11:47 < qyx> thats another issue, I have 8 positions for connectors spaced 12mm apart, connectors are 12 mm wide
2026-05-27T22:12:07 < zyp> and they'd likely need additional mechanical support as well, front panel could probably provide some, but you'd need something in the back as well
2026-05-27T22:12:12 < qyx> now I am using position 0 for vbus and basic comms (can+t1s)
2026-05-27T22:12:24 < qyx> position 1 for fast stuff, usb, 100base-t1, etc
2026-05-27T22:12:40 < qyx> position 2 is vendor specific
2026-05-27T22:12:44 < zyp> a better solution would probably be just having a 100mm card that's a carrier for multiple smaller modules
2026-05-27T22:13:07 < qyx> and then position 7 is for 28 V high power bus (10 A)
2026-05-27T22:13:23 < qyx> so, pos 0, 2, 4, 6 are *basically* free
2026-05-27T22:13:27 < zyp> then carrier could have a usb hub and whatever needed to run multiple modules from a single backplane port
2026-05-27T22:14:07 < qyx> that too but then I can't put micro modules to a common backplane
2026-05-27T22:14:26 < qyx> (well, common, micro-capable with pos 2, 4 and 6 populated with pos 0 pinout)
2026-05-27T22:14:34 < zyp> like a micro rack?
2026-05-27T22:14:34 < qyx> and vice versa
2026-05-27T22:14:55 < qyx> yes, and they would be hold together by the front panel
2026-05-27T22:15:13 < qyx> the main motivation for this is to have a handheld device
2026-05-27T22:15:22 < zyp> they still need to not flex sideways while you're sliding it in
2026-05-27T22:16:02 < qyx> yeah, I should probably prototype that
2026-05-27T22:16:49 < zyp> I still think it'd be better to a module carrier with some sort of mezzanine connector
2026-05-27T22:17:23 < qyx> I don't want to have different depths
2026-05-27T22:17:31 < zyp> a handheld device could also use those, just a single carrier board with module spots, no backplane
2026-05-27T22:17:55 < qyx> but I also want to put a full size board into the handheld device
2026-05-27T22:19:06 < zyp> wrt. depths; if you use mezzanine connectors, you could place them so depth doesn't matter
2026-05-27T22:20:10 < zyp> you obviously don't want to put the mezzanine connector so it conflicts with any front panel connectors, but it doesn't have to be all the way in the back either
2026-05-27T22:21:01 < zyp> and it's silly to pay for a 160mm deep board if you can fit whatever you're doing in 28x50mm or something
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2026-05-27T22:34:22 < qyx> but my boards are 75 mm deep, because it was silly to pay for 160 mm :p
2026-05-27T22:34:43 < zyp> ah, right
2026-05-27T22:35:36 < qyx> I need to prototype something and see
2026-05-27T22:35:43 < qyx> maybe it is a totally unusable concept
2026-05-27T22:36:18 < zyp> I'm gonna tell you «told you so» when you reconsider and go for my carrier idea :)
2026-05-27T22:36:19 < qyx> I am not sure if I am able to fit anything reasonable in 24x60 mm space either
2026-05-27T22:36:56 < qyx> because there are connectors on front and back occupying some mms
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2026-05-27T22:37:15 < qyx> m
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2026-05-27T23:49:38 < qyx> something like this https://bin.jvnv.net/file/f9OV8/Screenshot_2026-05-27_22-49-10.png
2026-05-27T23:49:41 < qyx> but puzzly
2026-05-27T23:49:57 < qyx> (it is actually pretty hard to do that directly in kicad)
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2026-05-27T23:59:48 < qyx> lol kicad now can do beziers
--- Day changed to touko 28 2026
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2026-05-28T00:06:27 < antto> what's so funny about that? ;P~
2026-05-28T00:09:30 < antto> bezier curves are also known as lolkek curves
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2026-05-28T00:15:10 < qyx> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/N08XS/Screenshot_2026-05-27_23-14-52.png
2026-05-28T00:15:12 < qyx> a bit better
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2026-05-28T13:14:18 < catphish> i've got a bit of a dilema - whether to use FX3 or the newer FX5 for my USB stuffs. The FX5 is definitely more better, more modern and has integrated flash, but... the FX3 is kinda ubiquitous, available at JLC, and consequently cheaper to prototype
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2026-05-28T17:56:46 < Steffanx> You can easily solder those 169 balls yourself catphish 
2026-05-28T17:57:09 < catphish> i most certainly cannot
2026-05-28T18:11:10 < zyp> I should poke at the FX20 again some time
2026-05-28T18:11:50 < zyp> see if there's more documentation and tools available
2026-05-28T18:35:17 < catphish> I think FX5 will be goog enough for me, but I could bump it up to FX10 i guess for more datas
2026-05-28T18:35:56 < catphish> I haven't checked, but I was hoping FX5/10/20 are the same chip, or at least pin compatible
2026-05-28T18:53:20 < zyp> they are, that's why I got the FX20
2026-05-28T18:53:35 < zyp> I'll only need FX5 for what I have in mind
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2026-05-28T20:07:15 < catphish> annoyingly i have a fx3 dev board, but for a new project it seems like i should upgrade to the newer tools
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2026-05-28T22:52:46 < LFSveteran> https://pastes.io/K6aa3z6M
2026-05-28T22:52:53 < LFSveteran> must be missing something....
2026-05-28T22:53:26 < LFSveteran> when I connect the AD input to 3V3 I'll get something in the range of 0x35  > 8 bit
2026-05-28T22:53:34 < LFSveteran> I was expecting 0x1FF
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2026-05-28T23:28:59 < catphish> LFSveteran: your ADC is 12-bit so you should probably expect 0xFFF
2026-05-28T23:29:15 < LFSveteran> indeed
2026-05-28T23:34:24 < catphish> LFSveteran: does the value change when if you apply 0V vs 3.3V?
2026-05-28T23:34:31 < LFSveteran> yes
2026-05-28T23:34:36 < LFSveteran> 0V > 0
2026-05-28T23:34:57 < catphish> and 3.3V is 0x0035?
2026-05-28T23:36:40 < LFSveteran> yes
2026-05-28T23:50:37 < catphish> well i'm afraid i don't know
2026-05-28T23:50:48 < LFSveteran> at least you tried...
--- Day changed pe touko 29 2026
2026-05-29T00:04:20 < nohit> You need to calibrate it
2026-05-29T00:05:34 < nohit> Not sure if its a thing with l0 but its athing with h7 and f0 for example
2026-05-29T00:10:28 < nohit> https://github.com/STMicroelectronics/stm32l0xx-hal-driver/blob/9f614d91f5a4aa094a86c7ee3ca9292e8492f2c0/Src/stm32l0xx_hal_adc_ex.c
2026-05-29T00:14:36 < qyx> calibration deals with the offset
2026-05-29T00:16:18 < qyx> LFSveteran: you know the code is unreadable, my OCPD hurts
2026-05-29T00:17:24 < qyx> what's the schematic?
2026-05-29T00:25:22 < nohit> Maybe its reversed offset
2026-05-29T00:28:38 < nohit> Its like offset but from the other end and to other direction
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2026-05-29T12:08:14 < catphish> nohit: they did calibrate it
2026-05-29T12:08:14 < catphish> LL_ADC_StartCalibration(ADC1);
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2026-05-29T17:49:06 < nohit> catphish: ah
2026-05-29T17:50:36 < nohit> the code burned my eyes so i could not look at it
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2026-05-29T19:44:25 < ColdKeyboard> Does USB3 routing benefit from routing with "arcs" instead of 45deg traces?
2026-05-29T19:48:30 < jpa-> it can, but maintaining good signal quality is more involved than just the shape of the corners
2026-05-29T19:58:08 < catphish> ColdKeyboard: probably not in any meaningful way
2026-05-29T20:03:15 < ColdKeyboard> Got it. Because Altium's arch routing is not OCD friendly :)
2026-05-29T20:06:03 < ColdKeyboard> Anyone tried KiCAD10 with diff routing and length matching?
2026-05-29T20:06:24 < ColdKeyboard> Curious how it compares to Altium and in general how easy/good it is
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2026-05-29T20:10:38 < karlp> jpa-: pfft, if it looks good, it is good, duh.
2026-05-29T20:12:01 < jpa-> well that is actually a good starting point, if there are visible distance variations in the trace pair, it will disturb both your OCD and USB
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2026-05-29T21:26:37 < catphish> kicad 9's lengh matching works just fine
2026-05-29T21:27:10 < catphish> i don't know if itqualifies as easy, but it's not *hard*
2026-05-29T21:27:28 < catphish> small learning curve to know what to press
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2026-05-29T22:14:57 < jbo> kicad's length matching is absolute dog shit
2026-05-29T22:15:16 < jbo> compared to altium
2026-05-29T22:16:15 < jbo> also have fun when you have multiple instances of the same bus with netclasses used to spec the min/max deviation and skew
2026-05-29T22:16:17 < jbo> just doesn't work
2026-05-29T22:16:30 < jbo> so you gotta DRC it manually
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2026-05-29T22:56:39 < zyp> ColdKeyboard, I did a bunch of arc routing in altium a couple of weeks ago: https://photos.app.goo.gl/bZj5Vry2pQyKSXZ49
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2026-05-29T23:04:46 < zyp> oh, yeah
2026-05-29T23:04:57 < zyp> I bought some black nail polish today
2026-05-29T23:05:20 < zyp> it's perfect
2026-05-29T23:05:38 < zyp> https://photos.app.goo.gl/PGX66ws3DUSbZHrV6
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2026-05-29T23:31:42 < qyx> emo zyp
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2026-05-30T06:35:18 < ColdKeyboard> Thank's zyp, those look neat. Maybe I have to play with the radius config or some other parameter to make them look more "uniform"
2026-05-30T06:35:49 < ColdKeyboard> What size are those lasered vias? They look neat
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2026-05-30T11:51:17 < zyp> they're not lasered vias, it's jlc 6L's standard via-in-pad process
2026-05-30T11:51:29 < zyp> that PCB was $2
2026-05-30T12:02:24 < zyp> https://bin.jvnv.net/file/IDSUV.png
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2026-05-30T19:05:07 < catphish> zyp: what via option did you choose to get those weird masked vias? i've not seen those before
2026-05-30T19:06:09 < catphish> also, you said via-in-pad, are some of those vias actually soldered over?
2026-05-30T19:16:37 < zyp> none, as I said this is jlc's standard process for 6L boards
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2026-05-30T19:17:40 < zyp> as in, when you choose 6L, the option «Via Covering: Epoxy Filled & Capped» is autoselected
2026-05-30T19:18:04 < zyp> https://jlcpcb.com/help/article/pcb-via-covering
2026-05-30T19:32:19 < zyp> and yes, this means you can place vias in pads without having holes that wick away solder
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2026-05-31T02:04:33 < qyx> do we have any other display manufacturer than buydisplay.com?
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2026-05-31T22:00:19 < LFSveteran> @catphish: Tried with a new nucleo board and now I have 0xFFB - 0xFFF as result, just as expected
2026-05-31T22:00:39 < LFSveteran> first time I see an ADC damaged like this
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2026-05-31T22:17:55 < catphish> LFSveteran: well that's good news, guess you damaged the analog input somehow
2026-05-31T22:18:20 < LFSveteran> yeah must be...never experienced it this way
2026-05-31T22:18:28 < LFSveteran> once must be the first time
2026-05-31T22:18:53 < LFSveteran> will search for a new microcontroller tomorrow....so I can repair the board
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--- Log closed ma kesä 01 00:00:04 2026